From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 03:09:24 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind people to think about. Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority groups in this country historically and in the present. More than that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination against other minority groups. Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I said about you being blind was very different from what you said about my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference here? I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get members of the public to see this? Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? I look forward to the discussion. Best, Arielle From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Nov 1 03:18:51 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:18:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! Arielle, I've been waiting to say something about this issue! I was listening to the National Quartet Convention, (Southern Gospel music's largest event,) when legendary singer/songwriter Bill Gaither made this comment, while introducing the next group. Gordon Mote, is his pianist, and he happens to be blind, so bear this in mind. Bill Gaither said this, while introducing the Southern Gospel trio, "Greater Vision." "Now, we go from lesser vision, (refering to Gordon,) to Greater Vision," (referring to the group.) It's okay to make fun of blindness, but if I told a joke against someone else, I'd be criticized. There's a double standard in the politically correct world. What's good for the goose is good for the gander! Blessings, Joshua On 10/31/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind > people to think about. > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority > groups in this country historically and in the present. More than > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination > against other minority groups. > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I > said about you being blind was very different from what you said about > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference > here? > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would > never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get > members of the public to see this? > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > I look forward to the discussion. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From isaiah5719 at mchsi.com Tue Nov 1 03:56:42 2011 From: isaiah5719 at mchsi.com (Loren Wakefield) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:56:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A978AED20514DB490234CC3402C8184@LorenPC> I think that this opens a whole bag of discussion. To me, it seems that the only other thing one can get away with joking or criticizing is someone who is a Christian. Having said that, I also believe that while some remarks are plain stupid, we must be careful we do not put ourselves in a corner. Words in general have a big impact on people and the attitudes that come from them. Have any of you evver been set up on a "sighted date"? Or should the term "blind date even bother us? How about a person who sells shades and curtains being called the "blind man"? For whatever reasons, I find some remarks about blindness humorous, and others I find plain dumb. Yet, I also know that one must be careful at what one laughs at these days. I heard a sports announcer make some comment about the lions devouring the Christian, because the Bronco qb played a horrible game. Yet, he would not dare make a comment about a person of islam belief, coughing up the pigskin. Should a Christian be offended at this? I also hate the remark that I do that so well that the person forgets I am blind. I use to get really upset at this. I then went to the idea that thanks, but hopefully someday you will just expect a blind individual to the same thing a sighted would do. And right now, with all I habve been through, I pretty much have that attitude that if that's the worst thing I face today, it is a pretty good day. I don't have any clear answers to this. I think we must deal with how we feel about it personally, and what we expect out of ourselves before we yell at john q public about it. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 10:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Wow! Arielle, I've been waiting to say something about this issue! I was listening to the National Quartet Convention, (Southern Gospel music's largest event,) when legendary singer/songwriter Bill Gaither made this comment, while introducing the next group. Gordon Mote, is his pianist, and he happens to be blind, so bear this in mind. Bill Gaither said this, while introducing the Southern Gospel trio, "Greater Vision." "Now, we go from lesser vision, (refering to Gordon,) to Greater Vision," (referring to the group.) It's okay to make fun of blindness, but if I told a joke against someone else, I'd be criticized. There's a double standard in the politically correct world. What's good for the goose is good for the gander! Blessings, Joshua On 10/31/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind > people to think about. > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority > groups in this country historically and in the present. More than > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination > against other minority groups. > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I > said about you being blind was very different from what you said about > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference > here? > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would > never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get > members of the public to see this? > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > I look forward to the discussion. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com From cortnie.ryan at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 05:13:06 2011 From: cortnie.ryan at gmail.com (Cortnie Ryan) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 01:13:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, my name is Cortnie. This is an extremely interesting topic of discussion. One in which I've pondered multiple times. I'm relatively new on this mailing list, and haven't quite had the nerve to put my thoughts and opinions down for all to see. Shy? I don't know. Anyway, on with the show, I guess. First off, I should say that the way this was brought to the table was very well-said, and I could tell it's something that was thought about at great length. Yes, forgive me for stating the obvious, but a cause for controversy is definitely a possibility, but these issues need to be discussed in order to reach a potential and satisfactory resolution. Mind you, this is only my opinion, but it's an opinion I feel very strongly about. No, I don't feel that it's different at all. What you may feel as a compliment to another person, may, essentially, be a slap in their face. Saying that you do something well for a blind person is no different than if you were to, as previously stated, do well for being a woman. Quite frankly, that sounds sexist and degrading, no matter how well-meaning the comment was. It's all about the perception. What someone else may see as complimentary, you may see as an insult. There have been many times those types of statements have been made to me. For instance, "Wow, I'm impressed. You do really well with crossing the street... for a blind person." Yet, comments like that aren't made to any other minority. A more tactful approach is taken. I'm unsure why it's that way, but I'm inclined to believe that it's a lack of education as well as the fact that most people see blindness as a physical disability or, I really hate to use this word, but a handicap. We as blind people may be a small fraction of the population, but blindness has been around as long as gays have, or even unconventional religious practices and beliefs. Take it from someone who has struggled through a couple different situations. I found my experiences to be quite similar. Lots of stereotyping, but different approaches were made when dealing with it. We all just want to be accepted and cared about for who we are on the inside. That's all that should matter. Unfortunately, though, that's not what people see when they meet us. Our supposed disability overshadows our disposition and personality. It's the same with our success. We can't possibly make it in the fast-track world of the all-mighty sighted. Note the sarcasm. Well, there's so much more I could write about this subject, but then it would just become even more of a rant. I'm trying to avoid that. Once again, very well written. On 10/31/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Wow! > Arielle, I've been waiting to say something about this issue! > I was listening to the National Quartet Convention, (Southern Gospel > music's largest event,) when legendary singer/songwriter Bill Gaither > made this comment, while introducing the next group. > Gordon Mote, is his pianist, and he happens to be blind, so bear this in > mind. > Bill Gaither said this, while introducing the Southern Gospel trio, > "Greater Vision." > "Now, we go from lesser vision, (refering to Gordon,) to Greater > Vision," (referring to the group.) > It's okay to make fun of blindness, but if I told a joke against > someone else, I'd be criticized. > There's a double standard in the politically correct world. > What's good for the goose is good for the gander! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 10/31/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >> people to think about. >> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >> groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >> against other minority groups. >> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >> said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >> here? >> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >> never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >> members of the public to see this? >> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >> I look forward to the discussion. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cortnie.ryan%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Nov 1 06:49:06 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 01:49:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cortnie: Welcome to the list! I hope you enjoy your time here! I agree with your statements. I'll E-mail you offlist. Blessings, Joshua On 11/1/11, Cortnie Ryan wrote: > Hello, my name is Cortnie. > This is an extremely interesting topic of discussion. One in which > I've pondered multiple times. I'm relatively new on this mailing list, > and haven't quite had the nerve to put my thoughts and opinions down > for all to see. Shy? I don't know. Anyway, on with the show, I guess. > First off, I should say that the way this was brought to the table was > very well-said, and I could tell it's something that was thought about > at great length. Yes, forgive me for stating the obvious, but a cause > for controversy is definitely a possibility, but these issues need to > be discussed in order to reach a potential and satisfactory > resolution. Mind you, this is only my opinion, but it's an opinion I > feel very strongly about. No, I don't feel that it's different at all. > What you may feel as a compliment to another person, may, essentially, > be a slap in their face. Saying that you do something well for a blind > person is no different than if you were to, as previously stated, do > well for being a woman. Quite frankly, that sounds sexist and > degrading, no matter how well-meaning the comment was. It's all about > the perception. What someone else may see as complimentary, you may > see as an insult. There have been many times those types of statements > have been made to me. For instance, "Wow, I'm impressed. You do really > well with crossing the street... for a blind person." Yet, comments > like that aren't made to any other minority. A more tactful approach > is taken. I'm unsure why it's that way, but I'm inclined to believe > that it's a lack of education as well as the fact that most people see > blindness as a physical disability or, I really hate to use this word, > but a handicap. We as blind people may be a small fraction of the > population, but blindness has been around as long as gays have, or > even unconventional religious practices and beliefs. Take it from > someone who has struggled through a couple different situations. I > found my experiences to be quite similar. Lots of stereotyping, but > different approaches were made when dealing with it. We all just want > to be accepted and cared about for who we are on the inside. That's > all that should matter. Unfortunately, though, that's not what people > see when they meet us. Our supposed disability overshadows our > disposition and personality. It's the same with our success. We can't > possibly make it in the fast-track world of the all-mighty sighted. > Note the sarcasm. > Well, there's so much more I could write about this subject, but then > it would just become even more of a rant. I'm trying to avoid that. > Once again, very well written. > > On 10/31/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Wow! >> Arielle, I've been waiting to say something about this issue! >> I was listening to the National Quartet Convention, (Southern Gospel >> music's largest event,) when legendary singer/songwriter Bill Gaither >> made this comment, while introducing the next group. >> Gordon Mote, is his pianist, and he happens to be blind, so bear this in >> mind. >> Bill Gaither said this, while introducing the Southern Gospel trio, >> "Greater Vision." >> "Now, we go from lesser vision, (refering to Gordon,) to Greater >> Vision," (referring to the group.) >> It's okay to make fun of blindness, but if I told a joke against >> someone else, I'd be criticized. >> There's a double standard in the politically correct world. >> What's good for the goose is good for the gander! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 10/31/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >>> people to think about. >>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>> against other minority groups. >>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >>> here? >>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >>> members of the public to see this? >>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>> I look forward to the discussion. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cortnie.ryan%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 17:32:17 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:32:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C2638BAB6CE48E9B60D3BDB73ADB5A5@OwnerPC> I have a friend who is in a wheelchair and when we took trips together or even just went out to lunch together, it was both anoying and offensive and yet some how funny, because people did not know which one of us to treet like we were stupid or incapable. It always offended us the way we were treeted but we use to make a bet with each other, which one of us would be the "one that needed help" and which one of us would be the "helper." We were allways rong when we thought it would be both of us thought of as stupid, because people think if you have a "disability" then you need an aid or helper, so when their were two people they feel are helpless their brain cant handle the confewsion. It never occurred to them to think we were both capable intelligent people. Once I went to the club with a sighted friend and I was weighting to use the bathroom when my friend walked in wondering where I went. Some stranger yeld at my friend for letting me wonder off by myself as thoe I were a child. My friend told her that I was a big girl and did not need a keeper, but the chick just didn't get it. One time I went to lunch with a group of sighted friends and my friends all were given glass glasses while I was given a styraphome cup with a lid. I asked the waiter why I was given the cup with a lid while my friends were given glass glasses and he pretended not to speek english. He went and found the restoront owner and they had a long conversation in korean which I was told was a translation of what I was asking but was most defanatly a discussion about what to do with me. He told me he thought I wanted take out. I laughed and asked him why he would think so when I sat at the same table with my friends and took my coat off? He finally told me he just thought it would be better so I wouldn’t spill. I am not that clumbsy but I almost took the top off and dumped it out on the floor just to proove a point but I did not. We finished eating and when I went to pay for myself and my friend who's birthday it was, I was swept aside and my friend was asked for money on my behalf. Needless to say I was livid, and my friends told me I was over reacting about the whole thing and just needed to calm down because the man just did not understand blind people. Thees are just a few examples as you all well know we have to deal with it every day. I try to enlighten people and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Some people are just to dence too ever understand anything beyond their skewed perseption of themselves and the world, but some times people will understand once they are given a chance. One time I went to a sushi restoront and the waittriss probably had never seen a blind person in her life and thought I was helpless at first but once she heard me talking like a normal person and did not need the fork she gave me because I could eat with the chopsticks she started talking to me like I was a normal person. She even was joking with me as I was leaveing. The change from practically shuvving me in a chair because she was afraid I would brake if I took another step to asking my opinian about her relationship was enough to tell me that some people if educated can come around. The ones who will never get it no matter how well you prove yourself I feel bad for it must really suck to be so stupid. I say stupid because I truly believe there is a difference between stupid and ignorent. If you are ignorent it is not your fault because you just don't know, but if you are ignorent because you refuse to learn then that person is stupid. I am sorry for the ranting and the run on sentences but I get mad when talking about the stupid people of the world. As far as other minorities go, I have friends in pretty much every community there is and the descrimenation is just as bad for them it is just a different form. My friend Canesha who is black just had an insident where she was being wached for shoplifting and she is the last person on earth who would shoplift. She was being wached for no other reason then because she is black. She was so angry about it but told me it happened at every store she went to. It made me so mad. My friend Youmi is from Korea and when we were in highschool she did not have many friends because everyone thought because she had an accsent and her english was not perfict that she was stupid. She had skipped 2 grades that is how smart she is. People still talked baby talk to her that made me mad. She never acted like she was mad but I know it bothered her. I have a friend who's knew name is Maria, but had a former name of Peter and she lost a lot of family and friends when they met Maria. she is the same person she was except now her phisical gender maches her mental gender. People act like she has a contagious disease, that makes me mad. My own father through a toster through a glass door when he found out I was dating a man from Guatemala. He did eventually come around though and is now suportive of our engagement. However he is still more happy with my sisters white boyfriend who treets her taribly then my brown feeonce who treets me like a queen. If the world was more openminded and less stuck on themselves then none of us would have problems but unfortunatly it is not that symple and all the education in the world will not fix the problem. Thankfully not all people are so stupid and we just have to focus on educating the people who are inteligent enough to not want to be ignorent. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 2:49 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Cortnie: Welcome to the list! I hope you enjoy your time here! I agree with your statements. I'll E-mail you offlist. Blessings, Joshua On 11/1/11, Cortnie Ryan wrote: > Hello, my name is Cortnie. > This is an extremely interesting topic of discussion. One in which > I've pondered multiple times. I'm relatively new on this mailing list, > and haven't quite had the nerve to put my thoughts and opinions down > for all to see. Shy? I don't know. Anyway, on with the show, I guess. > First off, I should say that the way this was brought to the table was > very well-said, and I could tell it's something that was thought about > at great length. Yes, forgive me for stating the obvious, but a cause > for controversy is definitely a possibility, but these issues need to > be discussed in order to reach a potential and satisfactory > resolution. Mind you, this is only my opinion, but it's an opinion I > feel very strongly about. No, I don't feel that it's different at all. > What you may feel as a compliment to another person, may, essentially, > be a slap in their face. Saying that you do something well for a blind > person is no different than if you were to, as previously stated, do > well for being a woman. Quite frankly, that sounds sexist and > degrading, no matter how well-meaning the comment was. It's all about > the perception. What someone else may see as complimentary, you may > see as an insult. There have been many times those types of statements > have been made to me. For instance, "Wow, I'm impressed. You do really > well with crossing the street... for a blind person." Yet, comments > like that aren't made to any other minority. A more tactful approach > is taken. I'm unsure why it's that way, but I'm inclined to believe > that it's a lack of education as well as the fact that most people see > blindness as a physical disability or, I really hate to use this word, > but a handicap. We as blind people may be a small fraction of the > population, but blindness has been around as long as gays have, or > even unconventional religious practices and beliefs. Take it from > someone who has struggled through a couple different situations. I > found my experiences to be quite similar. Lots of stereotyping, but > different approaches were made when dealing with it. We all just want > to be accepted and cared about for who we are on the inside. That's > all that should matter. Unfortunately, though, that's not what people > see when they meet us. Our supposed disability overshadows our > disposition and personality. It's the same with our success. We can't > possibly make it in the fast-track world of the all-mighty sighted. > Note the sarcasm. > Well, there's so much more I could write about this subject, but then > it would just become even more of a rant. I'm trying to avoid that. > Once again, very well written. > > On 10/31/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Wow! >> Arielle, I've been waiting to say something about this issue! >> I was listening to the National Quartet Convention, (Southern Gospel >> music's largest event,) when legendary singer/songwriter Bill Gaither >> made this comment, while introducing the next group. >> Gordon Mote, is his pianist, and he happens to be blind, so bear this in >> mind. >> Bill Gaither said this, while introducing the Southern Gospel trio, >> "Greater Vision." >> "Now, we go from lesser vision, (refering to Gordon,) to Greater >> Vision," (referring to the group.) >> It's okay to make fun of blindness, but if I told a joke against >> someone else, I'd be criticized. >> There's a double standard in the politically correct world. >> What's good for the goose is good for the gander! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 10/31/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >>> people to think about. >>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>> against other minority groups. >>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >>> here? >>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >>> members of the public to see this? >>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>> I look forward to the discussion. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cortnie.ryan%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 1 19:21:05 2011 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Hai Nguyen Ly) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:21:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Amazon is hiring Message-ID: <1EA6A6AD-2D44-4E56-B187-9ED811B74EDC@sbcglobal.net> Amazon is hiring for SDEs/SDETs for full-time positions upon graduation! We would love to hear from you! If you are interested in a full-time position at Amazon, please send your resume directly to Melissa Cooke, Recruiter, atmeco at amazon.com Software Development Engineer / Software Development Engineer in Test: As a member of the Amazon development team, you’ll be given the opportunity to have direct impact on the evolution of the Amazon e-commerce platform and lead mission critical projects early in your career. Your design, code and raw smarts will contribute to solving some of the most complex technical challenges in the areas of distributed systems, data mining, optimization, scalability, security and tweaking algorithms, just to name a few. Are you looking for an environment where you can drive innovation? Are you interested in finding the best intersection of features vs. performance? Are you up to the task of delivering innovative technology that offers millions of unique products to thousands of suppliers, to tens of millions of customers around the world? Many of the technical challenges Amazon encounters have never been dealt with before on this scale, if at all. Come help lead the way in e-commerce innovation. Basic Qualifications: • Must be currently enrolled in school or graduated within the last 12 months • Bachelor's degree in computer science, computer engineering or related technical discipline • At least 2 years experience with object-oriented design and coding, to include academic experience and/or internships Preferred Qualifications: • Strong, object-oriented design and coding skills (C/C++ and/or Java preferably on a UNIX or Linux platform) • Knowledge of Perl or other scripting languages a plus • Experience with distributed (multi-tiered) systems, algorithms, and relational databases • Experience in optimization mathematics (linear programming, nonlinear optimization) • Ability to effectively articulate technical challenges and solutions • Deal well with ambiguous/undefined problems; ability to think abstractly • Previous technical internship(s) preferred • Graduate degree a plus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 23:44:24 2011 From: nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com (community service Outreach) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:44:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Community Service Conference call: How and when do we talk about blindness, or do we? Message-ID: Hello, everyone! The community service group will have their monthly conference call this Sunday, November 6. Do you want to participate in community service, but are not quite sure how people will react to your blindness? Are you afraid that talking about your blindness could prevent you from participating fully in community service? Are you interested in learning about ways other blind individuals have disclosed their blindness? Is it necessary to mention blindness when talking about community service? What are the pros/cons of mentioning it? If you have ever asked yourself any of the above questions, or are just interested in learning more about this topic, this conference call is for you! The call-in information is below. Topic: How and when do we talk about blindness, or do we? When: Sunday, November 6 at 5 PT Where: (218) 339-3600 passcode 808277 Hope to see you there! Julie From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 2 03:27:07 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 23:27:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: 2a565ca9-f2b2-4b11-a664-2e433acb8de8@samobile.net Arielle, I think you're right that speaking about blindness in such a negative way is no different than speaking about other minorities in this fashion. I think the problem is twofold. First, people honestly feel that they are being kind to us, but they understand on some level that negative comments about other minorities are not kind; most people don't understand how their kindness impacts us. The other problem is that, up to this point, we haven't spoken with a clear voice on the matter of how we're treated by the sighted. Yes, there are our banquet speeches and our public announcements, but we're pressured into everyday politeness by both blind and sighted persons so much that we're afraid to tell the sighted how their so-called kindness really impacts us; the end result is that the sighted have no idea how we really feel about their behavior and we continue to have the same old issues we've had forever. Other minorities have done a much better job of voicing their frustrations than we have on an interpersonal level. We've conditioned ourselves into thinking that we owe the sighted some form of special courtesy since we're so afraid that they're going to judge us all based on the reactions of one person. If you want evidence, consider "Don't Throw the Nickel" and "The Nature of Independence." Let me say now what I've personally decided to do when it comes to this very issue. I stressed myself out to the point of needing counseling over whether or not the sighted would judge all of us based on my actions; I stressed out because i was afraid of how the rest of you might judge me if you ever found out about how I handled this or that interaction. That's a hell of a lot of pressure! I personally internalized the frustrations of all of us and this obsessive need to educate the sighted. I felt it was my responsibility to be an ambassador for the blind. I'm not kidding when I tell you that I emotionally hurt myself and physically drained my personal resources. After a lot of soul-searching and some professional help, I've decided to abdicate my role as ambassador for the blind unless I willingly put myself in that position (e.g. a meet the blind month activity or presentation on blindness). I have also abdicated my role as the educator. I've decided to stop dialoguing with the sighted through education and I've decided to start educating through dialogue. This needs explaining. If a sighted person says "You do so well that I forget you're blind," I say (if I think it's important enough), "I feel stuck when I hear you say that I'm so good at X that you forget that I'm blind. First, I feel forced to thank you for what you perceived to be a compliment because, if I don't thank you, I'm the rude one here. But at the same time, I feel hurt that you would say something like that because I hear you saying that you don't expect me to do so well because I'm blind and so are surprised, or that you somehow think that I'm better than whatever image you've created of me and my blind friends. This isn't to say that I don't recognize your attempt at kindness, but I'd rather you tell me that you appreciate something I'm good at because I'm good at it, not because I seem to go beyond an expectation I perceive you've set for me." Use whatever words you like folks. If you're genuinely grateful for the comment, say so. If you're angry, say so. But for goodness sake, don't just be quiet because you're expected to be polite. This is a great way to stack these things up in your heart. And if you can't say whatever you need to say to the person you need to say it to, find someone to say it to like a friend or a colleague who understands you. Put it in an e-mail message or whatever you need to do. That's what other minorities have been doing with comments like this, and I don't understand why we've not caught on except that we somehow seem to think we don't deserve this kind of equality. And you know what, some sighted people won't get it no matter what you do or say. But some will, and they'll appreciate your heart-felt honesty a hell of a lot more than whatever platitude you offer. Arielle, you asked some of us to talk about our other minority statuses if we have them. I fit into the "unusual religious belief" category, and my legal name reflects that fact. Some of you may know how much crap I've received from some regarding my preference to be called "Jedi" rather than my given name "Jennifer." I learned the hard way that going along to get along is a terrible choice. by going along to get along, I felt like some part of myself wasn't being heard. And if I fought against the tide of people telling me what to call myself, I felt like my words and reasons were falling into nothingness, even by people who cared about me but couldn't understand how important this preference was to me. So finally, i decided that I need to respect myself, especially because i wasn't getting much from others in this respect. So I changed my name legally and now it's no problem. I'm sure some people were disappointed in me for whatever reason. But I think they learned to respect me more as a person because I stood up for myself and didn't ask their permission to be who and what I am. I think the sighted are the same way. Maybe dramatic demonstrations such as mine aren't required in every situation, but I think we need to be ready for those times when they are. So in short, when you find yourself in a situation where a sighted person has said or done something to you, think about how that really makes you feel inside. And if it's important to you, make it a point to say whatever it is you feel you need to say. And since the rest of us aren't with you when you're going through this process, none of us have the right to judge you for whatever you do because we might have done the same had we been in your shoes. And if we really support each other and our collective bid for freedom, we shouldn't judge you anyway. Only you know what's right for you in how you deal with the sighted, and your experiences will tell you if any changes are needed to your approach. As to the reactions of the sighted, realize that they'll get over it; they're just as resilient as we are, and someone might actually take what you have to say to heart, I've heard it happen before and I've witnessed it myself. And really folks, we can't expect ourselves to represent all of us all of the time. We are a people's movement, yes. But first and foremost, we are people. If what I say feels right to any of you, let's get in contact because I'm working on some workshops in which ideas like these can be further explored and spread to the Federationists who are interested in this kind of thing. Thanks for asking the question, Arielle. It's high time someone did. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind > people to think about. > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority > groups in this country historically and in the present. More than > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination > against other minority groups. > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I > said about you being blind was very different from what you said about > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference > here? > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would > never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get > members of the public to see this? > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > I look forward to the discussion. > Best, > Arielle > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From dandrews at visi.com Wed Nov 2 03:39:23 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 22:39:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Hadley Instructor Position Message-ID: >From: Tom Babinszki >To: Tom Babinszki >Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:57:29 -0500 >Subject: Hadley Instructor Position > >We are looking for a technology instructor with >strong assistive technology background. >Please forward this opening as appropriate to >mailing lists, organizations or individuals. >I have attached the position description as a >Word document, as well as copied it in the message below. >Thank you for your help: > >Tom > > > >THE HADLEY SCHOOL FOR THE BLIND 700 ELM STREET, WINNETKA, IL 60093 > > > > >POSITION DESCRIPTION > > >Title: Instructor (emphasis on assistive >technology; blind and visually impaired) > >Reports to: Dean, Educational Programs and Instruction >Overview: > >Provides the Hadley student with teaching >designed to complement the Hadley texts/study >guides as well as encourage optimal learning, >greatest success, and future progress of the student. >Functions and Percentage of Time: >1. Provides prompt, thorough evaluation >of lesson assignments and motivational feedback >to foster student comprehension and to maintain momentum. (80%) >· provides thorough, accurate assignment responses >· gives positive, constructive feedback >· demonstrates congeniality and >respect through verbal and written communication >· meets prescribed assignment turnaround time >· provides an appropriate level of assistance and guidance > >· provides supplemental material and resource information >2. Maintains up-to-date, accurate student >records and submits all needed reports in a >timely manner to contribute to the accuracy of the record-keeping system. (5%) >· effectively uses ESS, the Hadley student reporting system >· keeps pertinent student-related notes >· clears follow-up reminders within seven business days > >· keeps logs and records as required >3. Contributes to course enrichment, >review, development and/or revision to assist in >maintenance of quality curriculum offerings. (5%) >· monitors course content for >correctness and notifies supervisor of out-of-date material >· keeps resource information relevant to courses taught >· stays current on course-related material > >· assists Curricular Affairs >with course revision, review, and piloting >4. Participates in committee work, >special projects or other duties as assigned by >supervisor to achieve organizational goals. (5%) >· assists with special events >· makes presentations and or >staffs the Hadley booth at conferences when needed >· collaborates >interdepartmentally regarding projects that help >advance the school’s goals and initiatives > >· participates in Instructor work groups, as appropriate >5. Follows an effective plan of >continuing education to provide for professional growth and enrichment. (5%) >· reads relevant literature >· attends pertinent conferences >and/or enrolls in courses that will contribute >to professional growth related to the position > >· participates in biennial >instructor meetings at Hadley Central >Qualifications: >· A bachelor’s degree in an >area related to the subject matter of the course(s), advanced degree preferred. >· At least two years of >experience working or teaching in the subject matter. > >· Braille reading and writing >skills, unless there are extenuating >circumstances; such as the course(s) is not >expected to have students who are braille users, >or lesson assignments are not expected in braille. >· Previous experience working >with people who are visually impaired >· Competence with PC and >Windows accessibility features related to the blind and visually impaired. >· Competence with application >software such as MS Word, Excel, Power Point, and Outlook. >· Competence with Apple iOS >and accessibility features related to the blind and visually impaired. >· Competence in the use of >mobile learning devices such as iphone, iPad, >tablet, and mobile phone as well as their >accessibility features related to the blind and visually impaired. >· Competence in the use and >instruction of a variety of screen reading and >screen enlargement programs (JAWS, Window-Eyes, >NVDA, System Access to Go, ZoomText, and MAGIC). >· Willingness to learn >assistive devices used by our students (digital >book players and software programs) >Additional Qualifications: >· Strong written and verbal communication skills >· Clearly spoken English >· Organizational skills >· Works well independently >· Flexibility > >· Excellent time management skills >Preferences: >· Reside in the Chicagoland area >· Applied the subject matter >skill or knowledge in an employment situation within the last three years > >· Prior distance education learning or teaching experience > > > >Salary commensurate with experience and qualifications > >Interested parties should send cover letter and resume to: > >Jacque Sabian >jacque at hadley.edu >The Hadley School for the Blind >700 Elm Street >Winnetka, IL 60093 >By November 28, 2011 > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PD Instructor '11 Assistive Technology.doc Type: application/msword Size: 54784 bytes Desc: not available URL: From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 03:53:36 2011 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:53:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4eb0becd.1f1b640a.7102.75e1@mx.google.com> Try being Blind, Muslim, and Somali. I converted to Islam and associate with Somalis, who are viewed as "violent, bombers, people who just want to absolutely throw you into a ditch." Not that anyone has ever said that. But the news views Somalis as "confidants of Al Shabbab" and so on. Deq, my Somali friend, is so sweet, and so intelligent, I forget about the whole Somali thing. Being a Muslim is not a bad dea at all. Jedi, I see what you've got in the "unusual religion" category. I don't think your stuff is too unusual. Your religion could be categorized as "super Buddhism". My religion could be classified according to interpretations of the Quran. To those who practice Judaeo-Christian heritage, I don't think it's a bad heritage. I've been there. But I didn't feel it was appropriate because the charismmatic Christians in my family didn't feel that blindness is something bearable. Islam believes that if you "suffer", or if you really are suffering from mental illness or blindness, then if you are also patient with what you have, then you are bound for Heaven or Paradise as we call it. Being blind AND a Muslim is a bad idea in some states like Florida, but not a bad idea in Colorado, where the Somali population is third largest only to one other state ad Minnesota. I don't remember, uh, I think it was Maine I was thinking of. I'm not Somali myself, but since Deq is a Somali, people tend to say things that aren't so nice about him, blind or otherwise. I usually stop and defend him. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Jedi Try being Blind, Muslim, and Somali. I converted to Islam and > associate with Somalis, who are viewed as "violent, bombers, > people who just want to absolutely throw you into a ditch." Not > that anyone has ever said that. But the news views Somalis as > "confidants of Al Shabbab" and so on. Deq, my Somali friend, is > so sweet, and so intelligent, I forget about the whole Somali > thing. Being a Muslim is not a bad dea at all. Jedi, I see what > you've got in the "unusual religion" category. I don't think > your stuff is too unusual. Your religion could be categorized as > "super Buddhism". My religion could be classified according to > interpretations of the Quran. To those who practice > Judaeo-Christian heritage, I don't think it's a bad heritage. > I've been there. But I didn't feel it was appropriate because > the charismmatic Christians in my family didn't feel that > blindness is something bearable. Islam believes that if you > "suffer", or if you really are suffering from mental illness or > blindness, then if you are also patient with what you have, then > you are bound for Heaven or Paradise as we call it. Being blind > AND a Muslim is a bad idea in some states like Florida, but not a > bad idea in Colorado, where the Somali population is third > largest only to one other state ad Minnesota. I don't remember, > uh, I think it was Maine I was thinking of. I'm not Somali > myself, but since Deq is a Somali, people tend to say things that > aren't so nice about him, blind or otherwise. I usually stop and > defend him. > Beth > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 23:27:07 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > Arielle, > I think you're right that speaking about blindness in such a > negative > way is no different than speaking about other minorities in this > fashion. I think the problem is twofold. First, people honestly > feel > that they are being kind to us, but they understand on some level > that > negative comments about other minorities are not kind; most > people > don't understand how their kindness impacts us. The other problem > is > that, up to this point, we haven't spoken with a clear voice on > the > matter of how we're treated by the sighted. Yes, there are our > banquet > speeches and our public announcements, but we're pressured into > everyday politeness by both blind and sighted persons so much > that > we're afraid to tell the sighted how their so-called kindness > really > impacts us; the end result is that the sighted have no idea how > we > really feel about their behavior and we continue to have the same > old > issues we've had forever. Other minorities have done a much > better job > of voicing their frustrations than we have on an interpersonal > level. > We've conditioned ourselves into thinking that we owe the sighted > some > form of special courtesy since we're so afraid that they're going > to > judge us all based on the reactions of one person. If you want > evidence, consider "Don't Throw the Nickel" and "The Nature of > Independence." > Let me say now what I've personally decided to do when it comes > to this > very issue. I stressed myself out to the point of needing > counseling > over whether or not the sighted would judge all of us based on my > actions; I stressed out because i was afraid of how the rest of > you > might judge me if you ever found out about how I handled this or > that > interaction. That's a hell of a lot of pressure! I personally > internalized the frustrations of all of us and this obsessive > need to > educate the sighted. I felt it was my responsibility to be an > ambassador for the blind. I'm not kidding when I tell you that I > emotionally hurt myself and physically drained my personal > resources. > After a lot of soul-searching and some professional help, I've > decided > to abdicate my role as ambassador for the blind unless I > willingly put > myself in that position (e.g. a meet the blind month activity or > presentation on blindness). I have also abdicated my role as the > educator. I've decided to stop dialoguing with the sighted > through > education and I've decided to start educating through dialogue. > This > needs explaining. If a sighted person says "You do so well that I > forget you're blind," I say (if I think it's important enough), > "I feel > stuck when I hear you say that I'm so good at X that you forget > that > I'm blind. First, I feel forced to thank you for what you > perceived to > be a compliment because, if I don't thank you, I'm the rude one > here. > But at the same time, I feel hurt that you would say something > like > that because I hear you saying that you don't expect me to do so > well > because I'm blind and so are surprised, or that you somehow think > that > I'm better than whatever image you've created of me and my blind > friends. This isn't to say that I don't recognize your attempt at > kindness, but I'd rather you tell me that you appreciate > something I'm > good at because I'm good at it, not because I seem to go beyond > an > expectation I perceive you've set for me." Use whatever words you > like > folks. If you're genuinely grateful for the comment, say so. If > you're > angry, say so. But for goodness sake, don't just be quiet because > you're expected to be polite. This is a great way to stack these > things > up in your heart. And if you can't say whatever you need to say > to the > person you need to say it to, find someone to say it to like a > friend > or a colleague who understands you. Put it in an e-mail message > or > whatever you need to do. That's what other minorities have been > doing > with comments like this, and I don't understand why we've not > caught on > except that we somehow seem to think we don't deserve this kind > of > equality. And you know what, some sighted people won't get it no > matter > what you do or say. But some will, and they'll appreciate your > heart-felt honesty a hell of a lot more than whatever platitude > you offer. > Arielle, you asked some of us to talk about our other minority > statuses > if we have them. I fit into the "unusual religious belief" > category, > and my legal name reflects that fact. Some of you may know how > much > crap I've received from some regarding my preference to be called > "Jedi" rather than my given name "Jennifer." I learned the hard > way > that going along to get along is a terrible choice. by going > along to > get along, I felt like some part of myself wasn't being heard. > And if I > fought against the tide of people telling me what to call myself, > I > felt like my words and reasons were falling into nothingness, > even by > people who cared about me but couldn't understand how important > this > preference was to me. So finally, i decided that I need to > respect > myself, especially because i wasn't getting much from others in > this > respect. So I changed my name legally and now it's no problem. > I'm sure > some people were disappointed in me for whatever reason. But I > think > they learned to respect me more as a person because I stood up > for > myself and didn't ask their permission to be who and what I am. I > think > the sighted are the same way. Maybe dramatic demonstrations such > as > mine aren't required in every situation, but I think we need to > be > ready for those times when they are. > So in short, when you find yourself in a situation where a > sighted > person has said or done something to you, think about how that > really > makes you feel inside. And if it's important to you, make it a > point to > say whatever it is you feel you need to say. And since the rest > of us > aren't with you when you're going through this process, none of > us have > the right to judge you for whatever you do because we might have > done > the same had we been in your shoes. And if we really support each > other > and our collective bid for freedom, we shouldn't judge you > anyway. Only > you know what's right for you in how you deal with the sighted, > and > your experiences will tell you if any changes are needed to your > approach. As to the reactions of the sighted, realize that > they'll get > over it; they're just as resilient as we are, and someone might > actually take what you have to say to heart, I've heard it happen > before and I've witnessed it myself. And really folks, we can't > expect > ourselves to represent all of us all of the time. We are a > people's > movement, yes. But first and foremost, we are people. > If what I say feels right to any of you, let's get in contact > because > I'm working on some workshops in which ideas like these can be > further > explored and spread to the Federationists who are interested in > this > kind of thing. > Thanks for asking the question, Arielle. It's high time someone > did. > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, > but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as > blind > people to think about. > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced > by the > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other > minority > groups in this country historically and in the present. More > than > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us > as a > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It > has > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us > in > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering > that > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination > against other minority groups. > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the > Blind, Jim > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center > and a > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so > well, > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, > Mr. > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a > philosophy > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You > are such > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, > what I > said about you being blind was very different from what you said > about > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, > so > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me > this > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to > a > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a > difference > here? > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views > about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have > no > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying > blind > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that > blind > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, > etc. > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't > understand > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members > will > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They > think > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I > don't > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a > collective. > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that > they > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the > protests > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many > people > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could > do-and yet > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in > our > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed > that the > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a > survey > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet > would > never say such things directly about another minority group-in > fact, > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit > their > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more > accurate > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination > against > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such > a > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the > same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's > awareness? Do > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other > minorities > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do > we get > members of the public to see this? > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are > "dual > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in > this > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, > uncommon > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > I look forward to the discussion. > Best, > Arielle > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi > %40samobile.net > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From jty727 at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 04:21:54 2011 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 00:21:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions Message-ID: Hi all! Hope alls great with you all! I have a few questions. Have any of you attempted to use the book readers called Kindels? I was curious to hear if their electronic books are compatible with the Victor Reader Stream? I don't know much about how it works, but from what I've noticed they are kind of the same idea so I was just curious if any of you knew whether or not the books read on the kindel could be read on the stream. Any thoughts are as always very much appreciated! Thanks, Justin From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 04:53:34 2011 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 22:53:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4eb0ccdb.0816640a.4f50.ffff82c2@mx.google.com> YEs. That makes sense. People tell me one thing, and I see another. Deq is a very able person, and I see a lot of discrimination against Africans, African Americans (who didn't come here straight out of Africa) and Latinos being discriminated against in the education system because teachers say, "These people are not intelligent." The blind are also discriminated against in the same ways. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Jedi Hello all, first, I would like to identify myself as someone who is coming from the perspective of two minority groups. I am blind, and I am also from the Dominican Republic. Let's start off with the statement that Joshua made about Christianity being an acceptible religion to poke fun at. This example misses the point, as christians in this country are a majority, not a minority. I'm not saying that one should be able to make fun of Christianity because of this, I am saying that it does not fit into the topic. However, if we lived in a mostly non-christian nation, and christians were a minority, then the comparison would be right on the money. The issue is whether or not blindness differs from other minority groups. And, I do not think that it does. If you take a look at people who have been historicly oppressed, look at the symptoms which have come from that oppression, the stereotypes and discrimination, we could probably draw the conclusion that indeed, blindness is and should be considered a disadvantaged minority group. Once while walking home from a night of bowling I was told by a woman that "I was walking very well for someone blind." she then continued to say that I was almost walking faster than she was. She meant this as a compliment. While chopping vegetables,I heard a man say "Wow, he's chopping up that pepper like he's not even blind.." One of my brother's friends once told him that he did not understand how I always "stayed fresh" meaning that I was always well dressed and looking sharp. I understand what this means. Blind people are understood to lack the skills which sighted people inherently possess, and therefore, as a blind person, I was doing so well that the sighted person was impressed. Now, I will say that even though hispanics/latinos in this country have a high school drop out rate, that in the workforce we still hold mostly blue collar jobs, that many of us pay taxes at a lower income braquet, and yes, we as a whole in this country are considered for a very good part disadvantaged," No one would dare tell me that I was doing so well for myself even though I was Hispanic. Disability, is very slowly beginning to be looked at as a minority group in the same way as ethnicity, gender, religion... The change is taking place because for once, the disability community, and in our particular case the blind community, is being led by our own people. But this is a very slow process, and I would say that most of the general population does not understand the change, or why even why they have such a rigid view on disability. Disability, and blindness in particular, are considered weaknesses, flaws, things which make the typical human being incomplete. It is rarely seen among the "able-bodied" as a simple characteristic. If we consider this perspective, the "able-bodied" or sighted person is indeed giving a compliment. They are saying: I recognize your flaw, and I recognize how you have overcome it. Indeed, we do deserve the same considerations as other minorities,we have had a history of opression, a history of activism against such oppression, but what we lack is that point in history in which we had not been oppressed. We cannot point to a map and say, once upon a time, our people were free in this place, or once upon a time, societyconsidered us equal. The blind, for the most part have remained mysterious, and strange to the able-bodied,to the sighted, to the typical human. We are even mysterious and srange to ourselves, often wondering why some blind people do this, or why some blind people do that. Every day however, I come across more and more blind people who are ready for employment, who are confident, who do not have and will not suffer the same stereotyping and discrimination that many of us have and will face. These people willl be the new representation of the blind. They will be seen as active and intergrated members of society. and the more that we strive to pull ourselves and others out of conditions of being a minority group, the more force our new perspective on disability and in our case blindness will be absorbed into the fabric of society. This was a long post, so thanks for reading, Alex From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 06:09:12 2011 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 00:09:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blindness Vs other minority groups Message-ID: <4eb0de95.e856ec0a.5adc.ffff87a5@mx.google.com> Good point, alex. Your e-mail was excellent and well written. Let's hope the blind today are representatives of the blind as they should be. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexander Castillo References: <4eb0ccdb.0816640a.4f50.ffff82c2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I’m just throwing out some thoughts here, so please keep that in mind when reading, if you will… I identify as being both blind and African-american. I find that (as you can imagine) people notice both my dark skin tone and the not-so dark NFB cane I use. It seems to me that when I interact with people, they notice my cane way before my skin tone (you can argue both good and bad for this if you really wanted to). In many situations, I find that if I am going to find myself in a discriminatory situation, it is about 98to 99 times out of 100 that it’s due to my blindness. As I think about it, there might have been a few times that the race card has been pulled, but blindness was being used as a cover in those situations. Does blindness blur color lines? Sometimes I feel like in Pan-disability gatherings blindness is the one disability that people really get most worked up over. The assumptionis made on some level that the blind person needs the most assistance because they can’t see, or their cane is viewed as a weapon – something to be really concerned about as a wheelchair user may figure. This is a really really interesting thread (thanks again, Arielle!). Unfortunately I don’t have a great amount to contribute but a few thoughts. Have a wonderful day folks! Darian On 11/1/11, Beth wrote: > YEs. That makes sense. People tell me one thing, and I see > another. Deq is a very able person, and I see a lot of > discrimination against Africans, African Americans (who didn't > come here straight out of Africa) and Latinos being discriminated > against in the education system because teachers say, "These > people are not intelligent." The blind are also discriminated > against in the same ways. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 00:15:44 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > Beth, > > Could you clarify what you mean by the following? > > Deq, my Somali friend, is so sweet, and so intelligent, I forget > about > the whole Somali thing. > > The only reason I ask you to clarify what you mean is because > this is > exactly the comment that Arielle is so frustrated with. Are you > saying > that you forget about the stupid things people say about Somali > people > because of how sweet and intelligent your friend is? If so, > you're > saying the same thing that people say about us as blind people. > So, it > would sound like "My friend is so sweet and intelligent that I > forget > how some people say that the blind are incapable." Does that make > sense? > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > Try being Blind, Muslim, and Somali. I converted to Islam and > associate with Somalis, who are viewed as "violent, bombers, > people who just want to absolutely throw you into a ditch." Not > that anyone has ever said that. But the news views Somalis as > "confidants of Al Shabbab" and so on. Deq, my Somali friend, is > so sweet, and so intelligent, I forget about the whole Somali > thing. Being a Muslim is not a bad dea at all. Jedi, I see > what > you've got in the "unusual religion" category. I don't think > your stuff is too unusual. Your religion could be categorized > as > "super Buddhism". My religion could be classified according to > interpretations of the Quran. To those who practice > Judaeo-Christian heritage, I don't think it's a bad heritage. > I've been there. But I didn't feel it was appropriate because > the charismmatic Christians in my family didn't feel that > blindness is something bearable. Islam believes that if you > "suffer", or if you really are suffering from mental illness or > blindness, then if you are also patient with what you have, then > you are bound for Heaven or Paradise as we call it. Being blind > AND a Muslim is a bad idea in some states like Florida, but not > a > bad idea in Colorado, where the Somali population is third > largest only to one other state ad Minnesota. I don't remember, > uh, I think it was Maine I was thinking of. I'm not Somali > myself, but since Deq is a Somali, people tend to say things > that > aren't so nice about him, blind or otherwise. I usually stop > and > defend him. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 23:27:07 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > Arielle, > > I think you're right that speaking about blindness in such a > negative > way is no different than speaking about other minorities in this > fashion. I think the problem is twofold. First, people honestly > feel > that they are being kind to us, but they understand on some > level > that > negative comments about other minorities are not kind; most > people > don't understand how their kindness impacts us. The other > problem > is > that, up to this point, we haven't spoken with a clear voice on > the > matter of how we're treated by the sighted. Yes, there are our > banquet > speeches and our public announcements, but we're pressured into > everyday politeness by both blind and sighted persons so much > that > we're afraid to tell the sighted how their so-called kindness > really > impacts us; the end result is that the sighted have no idea how > we > really feel about their behavior and we continue to have the > same > old > issues we've had forever. Other minorities have done a much > better job > of voicing their frustrations than we have on an interpersonal > level. > We've conditioned ourselves into thinking that we owe the > sighted > some > form of special courtesy since we're so afraid that they're > going > to > judge us all based on the reactions of one person. If you want > evidence, consider "Don't Throw the Nickel" and "The Nature of > Independence." > > Let me say now what I've personally decided to do when it comes > to this > very issue. I stressed myself out to the point of needing > counseling > over whether or not the sighted would judge all of us based on > my > actions; I stressed out because i was afraid of how the rest of > you > might judge me if you ever found out about how I handled this or > that > interaction. That's a hell of a lot of pressure! I personally > internalized the frustrations of all of us and this obsessive > need to > educate the sighted. I felt it was my responsibility to be an > ambassador for the blind. I'm not kidding when I tell you that I > emotionally hurt myself and physically drained my personal > resources. > After a lot of soul-searching and some professional help, I've > decided > to abdicate my role as ambassador for the blind unless I > willingly put > myself in that position (e.g. a meet the blind month activity or > presentation on blindness). I have also abdicated my role as the > educator. I've decided to stop dialoguing with the sighted > through > education and I've decided to start educating through dialogue. > This > needs explaining. If a sighted person says "You do so well that > I > forget you're blind," I say (if I think it's important enough), > "I feel > stuck when I hear you say that I'm so good at X that you forget > that > I'm blind. First, I feel forced to thank you for what you > perceived to > be a compliment because, if I don't thank you, I'm the rude one > here. > But at the same time, I feel hurt that you would say something > like > that because I hear you saying that you don't expect me to do so > well > because I'm blind and so are surprised, or that you somehow > think > that > I'm better than whatever image you've created of me and my blind > friends. This isn't to say that I don't recognize your attempt > at > kindness, but I'd rather you tell me that you appreciate > something I'm > good at because I'm good at it, not because I seem to go beyond > an > expectation I perceive you've set for me." Use whatever words > you > like > folks. If you're genuinely grateful for the comment, say so. If > you're > angry, say so. But for goodness sake, don't just be quiet > because > you're expected to be polite. This is a great way to stack these > things > up in your heart. And if you can't say whatever you need to say > to the > person you need to say it to, find someone to say it to like a > friend > or a colleague who understands you. Put it in an e-mail message > or > whatever you need to do. That's what other minorities have been > doing > with comments like this, and I don't understand why we've not > caught on > except that we somehow seem to think we don't deserve this kind > of > equality. And you know what, some sighted people won't get it no > matter > what you do or say. But some will, and they'll appreciate your > heart-felt honesty a hell of a lot more than whatever platitude > you offer. > > Arielle, you asked some of us to talk about our other minority > statuses > if we have them. I fit into the "unusual religious belief" > category, > and my legal name reflects that fact. Some of you may know how > much > crap I've received from some regarding my preference to be > called > "Jedi" rather than my given name "Jennifer." I learned the hard > way > that going along to get along is a terrible choice. by going > along to > get along, I felt like some part of myself wasn't being heard. > And if I > fought against the tide of people telling me what to call > myself, > I > felt like my words and reasons were falling into nothingness, > even by > people who cared about me but couldn't understand how important > this > preference was to me. So finally, i decided that I need to > respect > myself, especially because i wasn't getting much from others in > this > respect. So I changed my name legally and now it's no problem. > I'm sure > some people were disappointed in me for whatever reason. But I > think > they learned to respect me more as a person because I stood up > for > myself and didn't ask their permission to be who and what I am. > I > think > the sighted are the same way. Maybe dramatic demonstrations such > as > mine aren't required in every situation, but I think we need to > be > ready for those times when they are. > > So in short, when you find yourself in a situation where a > sighted > person has said or done something to you, think about how that > really > makes you feel inside. And if it's important to you, make it a > point to > say whatever it is you feel you need to say. And since the rest > of us > aren't with you when you're going through this process, none of > us have > the right to judge you for whatever you do because we might have > done > the same had we been in your shoes. And if we really support > each > other > and our collective bid for freedom, we shouldn't judge you > anyway. Only > you know what's right for you in how you deal with the sighted, > and > your experiences will tell you if any changes are needed to your > approach. As to the reactions of the sighted, realize that > they'll get > over it; they're just as resilient as we are, and someone might > actually take what you have to say to heart, I've heard it > happen > before and I've witnessed it myself. And really folks, we can't > expect > ourselves to represent all of us all of the time. We are a > people's > movement, yes. But first and foremost, we are people. > > If what I say feels right to any of you, let's get in contact > because > I'm working on some workshops in which ideas like these can be > further > explored and spread to the Federationists who are interested in > this > kind of thing. > > Thanks for asking the question, Arielle. It's high time someone > did. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, > but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as > blind > people to think about. > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced > by the > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other > minority > groups in this country historically and in the present. More > than > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us > as a > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It > has > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat > us > in > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering > that > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and > discrimination > against other minority groups. > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the > Blind, Jim > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center > and a > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job > so > well, > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, > Mr. > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a > philosophy > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You > are such > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, > what I > said about you being blind was very different from what you > said > about > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, > so > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To > me > this > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to > a > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a > difference > here? > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views > about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless > have > no > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like > saying > blind > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that > blind > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, > etc. > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't > understand > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members > will > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. > They > think > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I > don't > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a > collective. > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that > they > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the > protests > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many > people > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could > do-and yet > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in > our > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed > that the > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a > survey > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet > would > never say such things directly about another minority group-in > fact, > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap > those > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit > their > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more > accurate > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination > against > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are > such > a > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the > same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's > awareness? Do > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other > minorities > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do > we get > members of the public to see this? > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who > are > "dual > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group > in > this > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, > uncommon > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities > are > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > I look forward to the discussion. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi > %40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi > %40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 2 15:25:59 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 11:25:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Christian lists Message-ID: <3565D99753934EC79F0D078592E320BB@OwnerPC> Hi all, I was wondering if there are Christian lists for blind people or ones in general you’d recommend. I see the faith-talk, but you cannot go too deep into theology there. I’m probably going to join a bible study, but the good thing about email is you can participate anytime. From andrewjedg at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 15:45:11 2011 From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew Edgcumbe) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 11:45:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Christian lists In-Reply-To: <3565D99753934EC79F0D078592E320BB@OwnerPC> References: <3565D99753934EC79F0D078592E320BB@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley I sent you an email after i saw your message on faith-talk and things Anyway i sent you some address for groups you can join. If you did not get that email i will post them here. 1. icctalk Icctalk is a good friendly group of people and has prayer requests that get put out on that group it is an off shoot of the christian inter active christian community which i will talk about below there are other people on that group that don't go on the site much. to subscribe send blank email to icctalk-subscribe at yahoogroups.com The interactive christian community of spoken word ministries ran by rev tim snider and obviously you would need a mike but it is totally free for all people to join. the site in case any of you want to check it out is www.iccsite.com Also a friend and i do help moderate a email group ourselves. It is called Christians_Today You can go as deep as you wish to and things. By the way iccsite.com you are invited to check it out. Back to my group we always welcome new members and things. To subscribe send blank email to Christians_Today-subscribe at yahoogroups.com There are two other group i will mention SeasonsChat It is a very good group for chatting and things like that Karolyn Philips runs this group same with another group i will menton as well. We do go very deep on these groups you can go as deep as you wish to. anyway to subscribe send email to SeasonsChat-subscribe at yahoogroups.com There is also group called ShareThePrayer This group provides a place for prayer requests and just place to share prayer requests things like that. To subscribe send blank email to ShareThePrayer-subscribe at yahoogroups.com If you go to seasons ofrefreshing.org you can particapate in a on line voice chat you don't have to sign up or anything just download the client tc client that is then just put your name in then enter the room no password is required no sign up is required s just down load the tc client and you are ready to go. note you would need a working mike. the site is www.seasonsofrefreshing.org I hope these groups will be helpful for you and i hope to see you on them or some of them. On 11/2/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I was wondering if there are Christian lists for blind people or ones in > general you’d recommend. I see the faith-talk, but you cannot go too deep > into theology there. > > I’m probably going to join a bible study, but the good thing about email is > you can participate anytime. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > From carlymih at earthlink.net Wed Nov 2 16:02:52 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:02:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4eb0ccdb.0816640a.4f50.ffff82c2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111102083511.01cb8128@earthlink.net> Good morning, Darian a neighbor from just across the bay, Reading your poast has begged the question, Why need we equate race or ethnicity with disability? That said, I feel sometimes that being "white," although I am not your blond-haired, blue-eyed variety of white chick but a half Mediterranean one whose people came through Ellis Island, around the turn of last century, I feel sometimes that regardless of the origins of my ancestors, white skin is often tragically synonymous with notions of white privilage and the mythodical, pillaging, this race has wrought upon people from all over the world. 'Seems to me that, an only time a person's race can be seen as a handicap is when the majority, projects such, upon a person who of course is powerless to effect into which race he is born. for today, Car2/2011, Darian Smith wrote: >Hi all, > I’m just throwing out some thoughts here, so please keep that in >mind when reading, if you will > >I identify as being both blind and African-american. I find that >(as you can imagine) people notice both my dark skin tone and the >not-so dark NFB cane I use. It seems to me that when I interact with > people, they notice my cane way before my skin tone (you can argue >both good and bad for this if you really wanted to). In many >situations, I find that if I am going to find myself in a >discriminatory situation, it is about 98to 99 times out of 100 that >it’s due to my blindness. As I think about it, there might have been >a few times that the race card has been pulled, but blindness was >being used as a cover in those situations. Does blindness blur >color lines? Sometimes I feel like in Pan-disability gatherings >blindness is the one disability that people really get most worked up >over. The assumptionis made on some level that the blind person >needs the most assistance because they can’t see, or their cane is >viewed as a weapon ­ something to be really concerned about as a >wheelchair user may figure. > This is a really really interesting thread (thanks again, >Arielle!). Unfortunately I don’t have a great amount to contribute >but a few thoughts. > Have a wonderful day folks! > Darian > > >On 11/1/11, Beth wrote: > > YEs. That makes sense. People tell me one thing, and I see > > another. Deq is a very able person, and I see a lot of > > discrimination against Africans, African Americans (who didn't > > come here straight out of Africa) and Latinos being discriminated > > against in the education system because teachers say, "These > > people are not intelligent." The blind are also discriminated > > against in the same ways. > > Beth > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Date sent: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 00:15:44 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > > > Beth, > > > > Could you clarify what you mean by the following? > > > > Deq, my Somali friend, is so sweet, and so intelligent, I forget > > about > > the whole Somali thing. > > > > The only reason I ask you to clarify what you mean is because > > this is > > exactly the comment that Arielle is so frustrated with. Are you > > saying > > that you forget about the stupid things people say about Somali > > people > > because of how sweet and intelligent your friend is? If so, > > you're > > saying the same thing that people say about us as blind people. > > So, it > > would sound like "My friend is so sweet and intelligent that I > > forget > > how some people say that the blind are incapable." Does that make > > sense? > > > > Respectfully, > > Jedi > > > > Original message: > > Try being Blind, Muslim, and Somali. I converted to Islam and > > associate with Somalis, who are viewed as "violent, bombers, > > people who just want to absolutely throw you into a ditch." Not > > that anyone has ever said that. But the news views Somalis as > > "confidants of Al Shabbab" and so on. Deq, my Somali friend, is > > so sweet, and so intelligent, I forget about the whole Somali > > thing. Being a Muslim is not a bad dea at all. Jedi, I see > > what > > you've got in the "unusual religion" category. I don't think > > your stuff is too unusual. Your religion could be categorized > > as > > "super Buddhism". My religion could be classified according to > > interpretations of the Quran. To those who practice > > Judaeo-Christian heritage, I don't think it's a bad heritage. > > I've been there. But I didn't feel it was appropriate because > > the charismmatic Christians in my family didn't feel that > > blindness is something bearable. Islam believes that if you > > "suffer", or if you really are suffering from mental illness or > > blindness, then if you are also patient with what you have, then > > you are bound for Heaven or Paradise as we call it. Being blind > > AND a Muslim is a bad idea in some states like Florida, but not > > a > > bad idea in Colorado, where the Somali population is third > > largest only to one other state ad Minnesota. I don't remember, > > uh, I think it was Maine I was thinking of. I'm not Somali > > myself, but since Deq is a Somali, people tend to say things > > that > > aren't so nice about him, blind or otherwise. I usually stop > > and > > defend him. > > Beth > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Date sent: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 23:27:07 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > > > Arielle, > > > > I think you're right that speaking about blindness in such a > > negative > > way is no different than speaking about other minorities in this > > fashion. I think the problem is twofold. First, people honestly > > feel > > that they are being kind to us, but they understand on some > > level > > that > > negative comments about other minorities are not kind; most > > people > > don't understand how their kindness impacts us. The other > > problem > > is > > that, up to this point, we haven't spoken with a clear voice on > > the > > matter of how we're treated by the sighted. Yes, there are our > > banquet > > speeches and our public announcements, but we're pressured into > > everyday politeness by both blind and sighted persons so much > > that > > we're afraid to tell the sighted how their so-called kindness > > really > > impacts us; the end result is that the sighted have no idea how > > we > > really feel about their behavior and we continue to have the > > same > > old > > issues we've had forever. Other minorities have done a much > > better job > > of voicing their frustrations than we have on an interpersonal > > level. > > We've conditioned ourselves into thinking that we owe the > > sighted > > some > > form of special courtesy since we're so afraid that they're > > going > > to > > judge us all based on the reactions of one person. If you want > > evidence, consider "Don't Throw the Nickel" and "The Nature of > > Independence." > > > > Let me say now what I've personally decided to do when it comes > > to this > > very issue. I stressed myself out to the point of needing > > counseling > > over whether or not the sighted would judge all of us based on > > my > > actions; I stressed out because i was afraid of how the rest of > > you > > might judge me if you ever found out about how I handled this or > > that > > interaction. That's a hell of a lot of pressure! I personally > > internalized the frustrations of all of us and this obsessive > > need to > > educate the sighted. I felt it was my responsibility to be an > > ambassador for the blind. I'm not kidding when I tell you that I > > emotionally hurt myself and physically drained my personal > > resources. > > After a lot of soul-searching and some professional help, I've > > decided > > to abdicate my role as ambassador for the blind unless I > > willingly put > > myself in that position (e.g. a meet the blind month activity or > > presentation on blindness). I have also abdicated my role as the > > educator. I've decided to stop dialoguing with the sighted > > through > > education and I've decided to start educating through dialogue. > > This > > needs explaining. If a sighted person says "You do so well that > > I > > forget you're blind," I say (if I think it's important enough), > > "I feel > > stuck when I hear you say that I'm so good at X that you forget > > that > > I'm blind. First, I feel forced to thank you for what you > > perceived to > > be a compliment because, if I don't thank you, I'm the rude one > > here. > > But at the same time, I feel hurt that you would say something > > like > > that because I hear you saying that you don't expect me to do so > > well > > because I'm blind and so are surprised, or that you somehow > > think > > that > > I'm better than whatever image you've created of me and my blind > > friends. This isn't to say that I don't recognize your attempt > > at > > kindness, but I'd rather you tell me that you appreciate > > something I'm > > good at because I'm good at it, not because I seem to go beyond > > an > > expectation I perceive you've set for me." Use whatever words > > you > > like > > folks. If you're genuinely grateful for the comment, say so. If > > you're > > angry, say so. But for goodness sake, don't just be quiet > > because > > you're expected to be polite. This is a great way to stack these > > things > > up in your heart. And if you can't say whatever you need to say > > to the > > person you need to say it to, find someone to say it to like a > > friend > > or a colleague who understands you. Put it in an e-mail message > > or > > whatever you need to do. That's what other minorities have been > > doing > > with comments like this, and I don't understand why we've not > > caught on > > except that we somehow seem to think we don't deserve this kind > > of > > equality. And you know what, some sighted people won't get it no > > matter > > what you do or say. But some will, and they'll appreciate your > > heart-felt honesty a hell of a lot more than whatever platitude > > you offer. > > > > Arielle, you asked some of us to talk about our other minority > > statuses > > if we have them. I fit into the "unusual religious belief" > > category, > > and my legal name reflects that fact. Some of you may know how > > much > > crap I've received from some regarding my preference to be > > called > > "Jedi" rather than my given name "Jennifer." I learned the hard > > way > > that going along to get along is a terrible choice. by going > > along to > > get along, I felt like some part of myself wasn't being heard. > > And if I > > fought against the tide of people telling me what to call > > myself, > > I > > felt like my words and reasons were falling into nothingness, > > even by > > people who cared about me but couldn't understand how important > > this > > preference was to me. So finally, i decided that I need to > > respect > > myself, especially because i wasn't getting much from others in > > this > > respect. So I changed my name legally and now it's no problem. > > I'm sure > > some people were disappointed in me for whatever reason. But I > > think > > they learned to respect me more as a person because I stood up > > for > > myself and didn't ask their permission to be who and what I am. > > I > > think > > the sighted are the same way. Maybe dramatic demonstrations such > > as > > mine aren't required in every situation, but I think we need to > > be > > ready for those times when they are. > > > > So in short, when you find yourself in a situation where a > > sighted > > person has said or done something to you, think about how that > > really > > makes you feel inside. And if it's important to you, make it a > > point to > > say whatever it is you feel you need to say. And since the rest > > of us > > aren't with you when you're going through this process, none of > > us have > > the right to judge you for whatever you do because we might have > > done > > the same had we been in your shoes. And if we really support > > each > > other > > and our collective bid for freedom, we shouldn't judge you > > anyway. Only > > you know what's right for you in how you deal with the sighted, > > and > > your experiences will tell you if any changes are needed to your > > approach. As to the reactions of the sighted, realize that > > they'll get > > over it; they're just as resilient as we are, and someone might > > actually take what you have to say to heart, I've heard it > > happen > > before and I've witnessed it myself. And really folks, we can't > > expect > > ourselves to represent all of us all of the time. We are a > > people's > > movement, yes. But first and foremost, we are people. > > > > If what I say feels right to any of you, let's get in contact > > because > > I'm working on some workshops in which ideas like these can be > > further > > explored and spread to the Federationists who are interested in > > this > > kind of thing. > > > > Thanks for asking the question, Arielle. It's high time someone > > did. > > > > Respectfully, > > Jedi > > Original message: > > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, > > but I > > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as > > blind > > people to think about. > > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced > > by the > > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other > > minority > > groups in this country historically and in the present. More > > than > > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us > > as a > > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It > > has > > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat > > us > > in > > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering > > that > > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and > > discrimination > > against other minority groups. > > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the > > Blind, Jim > > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center > > and a > > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job > > so > > well, > > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, > > Mr. > > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a > > philosophy > > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You > > are such > > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, > > what I > > said about you being blind was very different from what you > > said > > about > > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, > > so > > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To > > me > > this > > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to > > a > > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a > > difference > > here? > > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views > > about > > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless > > have > > no > > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like > > saying > > blind > > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that > > blind > > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, > > etc. > > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't > > understand > > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members > > will > > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. > > They > > think > > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I > > don't > > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a > > collective. > > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that > > they > > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the > > protests > > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many > > people > > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could > > do-and yet > > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in > > our > > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed > > that the > > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a > > survey > > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet > > would > > never say such things directly about another minority group-in > > fact, > > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap > > those > > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit > > their > > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more > > accurate > > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination > > against > > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are > > such > > a > > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the > > same > > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's > > awareness? Do > > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other > > minorities > > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do > > we get > > members of the public to see this? > > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who > > are > > "dual > > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group > > in > > this > > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, > > uncommon > > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities > > are > > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > > I look forward to the discussion. > > Best, > > Arielle > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for nabs-l: > > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi > > %40samobile.net > > > > -- > > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > > Visit > > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info > > for nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > > se%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi > > %40samobile.net > > > > -- > > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > > Visit > > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > > se%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Darian Smith > >"To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the >formula >for a life well lived." > >- Dr. Peter Benson > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From amylsabo at comcast.net Wed Nov 2 16:03:50 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 10:03:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012d01cc9979$036d2980$0a477c80$@comcast.net> Dear Justin and all, To answer your questions in dealing with the Kendal reader no, I don't have one and, they are very inaccessible for people who are blind. I know of this through the work of the nfb. As for putting books on the stream like what you would do for the Kendal is a unique question but, I'm sure that you can just as long as the books are in mp3 format. But, like I said I could be wrong and, I'm sure that others here on this list will chime in with their feedback on this topic. Thanks again and good luck with your inquiry! Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions Hi all! Hope alls great with you all! I have a few questions. Have any of you attempted to use the book readers called Kindels? I was curious to hear if their electronic books are compatible with the Victor Reader Stream? I don't know much about how it works, but from what I've noticed they are kind of the same idea so I was just curious if any of you knew whether or not the books read on the kindel could be read on the stream. Any thoughts are as always very much appreciated! Thanks, Justin _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 2 16:13:37 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:13:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Christian lists In-Reply-To: References: <3565D99753934EC79F0D078592E320BB@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <68A3E69A50404AEE96606660EA696D76@OwnerPC> Andrew, Thanks. I'll check for your email. I think I got it. There are many with the lists I'm on. I'll check the sites out. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Edgcumbe Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 11:45 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Christian lists Ashley I sent you an email after i saw your message on faith-talk and things Anyway i sent you some address for groups you can join. If you did not get that email i will post them here. 1. icctalk Icctalk is a good friendly group of people and has prayer requests that get put out on that group it is an off shoot of the christian inter active christian community which i will talk about below there are other people on that group that don't go on the site much. to subscribe send blank email to icctalk-subscribe at yahoogroups.com The interactive christian community of spoken word ministries ran by rev tim snider and obviously you would need a mike but it is totally free for all people to join. the site in case any of you want to check it out is www.iccsite.com Also a friend and i do help moderate a email group ourselves. It is called Christians_Today You can go as deep as you wish to and things. By the way iccsite.com you are invited to check it out. Back to my group we always welcome new members and things. To subscribe send blank email to Christians_Today-subscribe at yahoogroups.com There are two other group i will mention SeasonsChat It is a very good group for chatting and things like that Karolyn Philips runs this group same with another group i will menton as well. We do go very deep on these groups you can go as deep as you wish to. anyway to subscribe send email to SeasonsChat-subscribe at yahoogroups.com There is also group called ShareThePrayer This group provides a place for prayer requests and just place to share prayer requests things like that. To subscribe send blank email to ShareThePrayer-subscribe at yahoogroups.com If you go to seasons ofrefreshing.org you can particapate in a on line voice chat you don't have to sign up or anything just download the client tc client that is then just put your name in then enter the room no password is required no sign up is required s just down load the tc client and you are ready to go. note you would need a working mike. the site is www.seasonsofrefreshing.org I hope these groups will be helpful for you and i hope to see you on them or some of them. On 11/2/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > I was wondering if there are Christian lists for blind people or ones in > general you’d recommend. I see the faith-talk, but you cannot go too deep > into theology there. > > I’m probably going to join a bible study, but the good thing about email > is > you can participate anytime. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 16:59:40 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:59:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions References: <012d01cc9979$036d2980$0a477c80$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7534ED3C477C4845A349329AD381E6A8@hometwxakonvzn> Amy, I know noting about the stream. What is your opinion of the NLS players? RJ Skype: smallistbaby1979 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tech Questions > Dear Justin and all, > > To answer your questions in dealing with the Kendal reader no, I > don't have one and, they are very inaccessible for people who are > blind. I know of this through the work of the nfb. As for putting > books on the stream like what you would do for the Kendal is a > unique question but, I'm sure that you can just as long as the > books are in mp3 format. > > But, like I said I could be wrong and, I'm sure that others here > on this list will chime in with their feedback on this topic. > > Thanks again and good luck with your inquiry! > > > > Hugs, > amy > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:22 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions > > Hi all! > > Hope alls great with you all! I have a few questions. Have any > of > you attempted to use the book readers called Kindels? I was > curious > to hear if their electronic books are compatible with the Victor > Reader Stream? I don't know much about how it works, but from > what > I've noticed they are kind of the same idea so I was just curious > if > any of you knew whether or not the books read on the kindel could > be > read on the stream. > > Any thoughts are as always very much appreciated! > > Thanks, > > Justin > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co > mcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 17:05:01 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:05:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions In-Reply-To: <012d01cc9979$036d2980$0a477c80$@comcast.net> References: <012d01cc9979$036d2980$0a477c80$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2420604082406323227@unknownmsgid> Books that you buy on a Kindle can only be played on a Kindle device or on the Kindle software on your computer. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 2, 2011, at 12:06 PM, Amy Sabo wrote: > Dear Justin and all, > > To answer your questions in dealing with the Kendal reader no, I > don't have one and, they are very inaccessible for people who are > blind. I know of this through the work of the nfb. As for putting > books on the stream like what you would do for the Kendal is a > unique question but, I'm sure that you can just as long as the > books are in mp3 format. > > But, like I said I could be wrong and, I'm sure that others here > on this list will chime in with their feedback on this topic. > > Thanks again and good luck with your inquiry! > > > > Hugs, > amy > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:22 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions > > Hi all! > > Hope alls great with you all! I have a few questions. Have any > of > you attempted to use the book readers called Kindels? I was > curious > to hear if their electronic books are compatible with the Victor > Reader Stream? I don't know much about how it works, but from > what > I've noticed they are kind of the same idea so I was just curious > if > any of you knew whether or not the books read on the kindel could > be > read on the stream. > > Any thoughts are as always very much appreciated! > > Thanks, > > Justin > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co > mcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Nov 2 18:45:18 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:45:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] blindness Vs other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alexander: I didn't say that. That was Loren Wakefield's point, that I also take issue with. What I was saying is that it is wrong to poke fun at anyone, based on what they are, be they disabled, or a diferent religion. We should always be careful what we say. Blessings, Joshua On 11/2/11, Alexander Castillo wrote: > Hello all, first, I would like to identify myself as someone who is > coming from the perspective of two minority > > groups. I am blind, and I am also from the Dominican Republic. > > Let's start off with the statement that Joshua made about Christianity > being an acceptible religion to poke fun at. > > This example misses the point, as christians in this country are a > majority, not a minority. I'm not saying that > > one should be able to make fun of Christianity because of this, I am > saying that it does not fit into the topic. > > However, if we lived in a mostly non-christian nation, and christians > were a minority, then the comparison would be > > right on the money. > > The issue is whether or not blindness differs from other minority > groups. And, I do not think that it does. If you > > take a look at people who have been historicly oppressed, look at the > symptoms which have come from that > > oppression, the stereotypes and discrimination, we could probably draw > the conclusion that indeed, blindness is and > > should be considered a disadvantaged minority group. > > Once while walking home from a night of bowling I was told by a woman > that "I was walking very well for someone > > blind." she then continued to say that I was almost walking faster > than she was. She meant this as a compliment. > > While chopping vegetables,I heard a man say "Wow, he's chopping up > that pepper like he's not even blind.." > > > One of my brother's friends once told him that he did not understand > how I always "stayed fresh" meaning that I was > > always well dressed and looking sharp. > > I understand what this means. Blind people are understood to lack the > skills which sighted people inherently > > possess, and therefore, as a blind person, I was doing so well that > the sighted person was impressed. > > Now, I will say that even though hispanics/latinos in this country > have a high school drop out rate, that in the > > workforce we still hold mostly blue collar jobs, that many of us pay > taxes at a lower income braquet, and yes, we > > as a whole in this country are considered for a very good part > disadvantaged," No one would dare tell me that I was > > doing so well for myself even though I was Hispanic. > > Disability, is very slowly beginning to be looked at as a minority > group in the same way as ethnicity, gender, > > religion... The change is taking place because for once, the > disability community, and in our particular case the > > blind community, is being led by our own people. But this is a very > slow process, and I would say that most of the > > general population does not understand the change, or why even why > they have such a rigid view on disability. > > Disability, and blindness in particular, are considered weaknesses, > flaws, things which make the typical human being > > incomplete. It is rarely seen among the "able-bodied" as a simple > characteristic. If we consider this perspective, > > the "able-bodied" or sighted person is indeed giving a compliment. > They are saying: I recognize your flaw, and I > > recognize how you have overcome it. > > Indeed, we do deserve the same considerations as other minorities,we > have had a history of opression, a history of > > activism against such oppression, but what we lack is that point in > history in which we had not been oppressed. > > We cannot point to a map and say, once upon a time, our people were > free in this place, or once upon a time, > > societyconsidered us equal. The blind, for the most part have remained > mysterious, and strange to the able-bodied,to > > the sighted, to the typical human. > > > We are even mysterious and srange to ourselves, often wondering why > some blind people do this, or why some blind > > people do that. > > Every day however, I come across more and more blind people who are > ready for employment, who are confident, who do > > not have and will not suffer the same stereotyping and discrimination > that many of us have and will face. These > > people willl be the new representation of the blind. They will be seen > as active and intergrated members of society. > > and the more that we strive to pull ourselves and others out of > conditions of being a minority group, the more > > force our new perspective on disability and in our case blindness will > be absorbed into the fabric of society. > > This was a long post, so thanks for reading, > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Nov 2 18:58:07 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:58:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Christian lists In-Reply-To: <68A3E69A50404AEE96606660EA696D76@OwnerPC> References: <3565D99753934EC79F0D078592E320BB@OwnerPC> <68A3E69A50404AEE96606660EA696D76@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley: I have one. Maribeth Flin is our owner. groups.yahoo.com/groups/apostleslist This list is for Apostolic Pentecostals and those interested in what we believe. There are 4 people on this list, but 3 of us are active members. The list owner doesn't log on, so she lets me use the password, so I can moderate the list. To subscribe, E-mail this address. apostleslist-subscribe at yahoogroups.com To post, apostleslist at yahoogroups.com. This is not just a message for Ashley, but for others that would be interested in joining this list. Blessings, Joshua On 11/2/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Andrew, > Thanks. I'll check for your email. I think I got it. There are many with the > lists I'm on. > I'll check the sites out. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Edgcumbe > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 11:45 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Christian lists > > Ashley I sent you an email after i saw your message on faith-talk and > things Anyway > > i sent you some address for groups you can join. > If you did not get that email i will post them here. > > 1. icctalk > Icctalk is a good friendly group of people and has prayer requests > that get put out on that group it is an off shoot of the christian > inter active christian community which i will talk about below there > are other people on that group that don't go on the site much. > to subscribe send blank email to icctalk-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > The interactive christian community of spoken word ministries ran by > rev tim snider and obviously you would need a mike but it is totally > free for all people to join. the site in case any of you want to check > it out is www.iccsite.com > > Also a friend and i do help moderate a email group ourselves. > It is called Christians_Today > > You can go as deep as you wish to and things. By the way iccsite.com > you are invited to check it out. > Back to my group we always welcome new members and things. > To subscribe send blank email to > Christians_Today-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > There are two other group i will mention SeasonsChat > It is a very good group for chatting and things like that Karolyn > Philips runs this group same with another group i will menton as well. > We do go very deep on these groups you can go as deep as you wish to. > anyway to subscribe send email to > SeasonsChat-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > There is also group called ShareThePrayer > > This group provides a place for prayer requests and just place to > share prayer requests things like that. > To subscribe send blank email to > ShareThePrayer-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > If you go to seasons ofrefreshing.org you can particapate in a on > line voice chat you don't have to sign up or anything just download > the client tc client that is then just put your name in then enter > the room no password is required no sign up is required s just down > load the tc client and you are ready to go. note you would need a > working mike. > > the site is www.seasonsofrefreshing.org > > I hope these groups will be helpful for you and i hope to see you on > them or some of them. > > On 11/2/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> I was wondering if there are Christian lists for blind people or ones in >> general you’d recommend. I see the faith-talk, but you cannot go too deep >> into theology there. >> >> I’m probably going to join a bible study, but the good thing about email >> is >> you can participate anytime. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 20:00:34 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 16:00:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions In-Reply-To: <2420604082406323227@unknownmsgid> References: <012d01cc9979$036d2980$0a477c80$@comcast.net> <2420604082406323227@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: RJ, I have one of the NLS players. Frankly, I'm not sure what the advantages of it are over the Stream. It's kind of like a casette player, but with cartridges instead of casettes. Patrick On 11/2/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Books that you buy on a Kindle can only be played on a Kindle device > or on the Kindle software on your computer. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 2, 2011, at 12:06 PM, Amy Sabo wrote: > >> Dear Justin and all, >> >> To answer your questions in dealing with the Kendal reader no, I >> don't have one and, they are very inaccessible for people who are >> blind. I know of this through the work of the nfb. As for putting >> books on the stream like what you would do for the Kendal is a >> unique question but, I'm sure that you can just as long as the >> books are in mp3 format. >> >> But, like I said I could be wrong and, I'm sure that others here >> on this list will chime in with their feedback on this topic. >> >> Thanks again and good luck with your inquiry! >> >> >> >> Hugs, >> amy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young >> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:22 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions >> >> Hi all! >> >> Hope alls great with you all! I have a few questions. Have any >> of >> you attempted to use the book readers called Kindels? I was >> curious >> to hear if their electronic books are compatible with the Victor >> Reader Stream? I don't know much about how it works, but from >> what >> I've noticed they are kind of the same idea so I was just curious >> if >> any of you knew whether or not the books read on the kindel could >> be >> read on the stream. >> >> Any thoughts are as always very much appreciated! >> >> Thanks, >> >> Justin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co >> mcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Nov 2 20:14:41 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 15:14:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minority groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arielle, I don't have the energy to discuss this topic- at least today. It is an important one though and something to be considered. It's not just blindness, though we tend to get the worse of it in my experience, that have to deal with societal stereotypes. We're still deemed less fortunate and viewed with fear and sadness. Those of us who "manage" to pursue higher education and employment and families, we're just brave and some exceptional breed of disabled people. It's interesting that people don't equate their comments to providing an underlying message that we're somehow less of a person or not as capable. It's tough to argue that kindness can be discrimination. I've tried, and even though I'm the one living the experience, most won't concede to my argument, and instead choose to think I'm a horrible person who likes to cause trouble. Okay, that may not be far from the mark, but there's a principle here! LOL One of the reasons I've stepped down from a lot of my involvement with the Federation for now is because I, to be honest, get tired of my life revolving around blindness. I believe in the Federation and know how important it is to continue the work of this organization, but before I lost my sight, I had dreams, desires, goals, passions, and they didn't go away just because my sight did. I want to pursue those same things. But I must admit buckets of cold water are thrown in my face each time I enter a situation and all people see is an indefinable person with a cane. I'm the monkey in the zoo; the rare wonder happening before peoples eyes. It takes a lot of aggression on my part just to prove that I am capable and to get others to understand I can participate. It's tough, and I am tired of always having to do this instead of being able to show up and just be accepted. You ask about those with blindness who also are apart of another minority- don't forget women. I notice how different I'm treated as a female who is also blind. There's chivalry and courteousness, and then there's annoying, demeaning and unfair. I've been told to my face that as a blind woman, I'm more of a victim and in danger. My dad has always pushed for me to use a service dog because a dog "could protect me." No matter that I explain that this isn't the job of a service dog, to him, I'm not safe on my own. Ross, my husband, who's also blind, is often treated differently than me even when together. I've been wrangled like a cow while Ross is left alone. Or, people will think that if Ross is with me than I'm okay, but if he's not, then I'm vulnerable. This makes me feel like I'm somehow not as capable as a man. I am cautious and understand that I need to be aware of my surroundings in order to keep safe, but anyone does. It's not about being feminist or trying to assert some power over men; it's about feeling equal and as though as an adult I can care for myself instead of being treated like a child. I notice women tend to be on the bottom of the barrel no matter what. Race, ethnicity, disability, gay, if female, it seems like more of a struggle. African-Americans were given the right to vote long before women. Women weren't expected to cultivate their intellect until the 70's and 80's. Before then, we attended university to find husbands. If women had to work, there was a small field of employment we could choose from. Women are still paid less even when working the same positions as men. My point is that women are still fighting for equality. I'm not against the traditional "roles" often attributed to men and women, but the problem is that we've often considered the "feminine role" as inferior; until we view everyone as equals, we will continue to struggle with these issues. I also want to point out that while most don't openly disrespect other minorities or make stereotypical comments out loud, things are said behind closed doors. It's become politically incorrect to comment like this, but racism and prejudice are still in existence and continue to flourish. I'm often called a cynic, but I only speak from life experience. Equality is a goal spouted by many but understood by few. As long as there are agendas to push, beliefs to be instilled, or forced, distinctions made to gather prejudicial statistics, equality and respect for all won't be achieved in this world. It's cold, raining and sleeting in Omaha today; perhaps the weather is affecting my mood. I apologize. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 2 Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 From: Arielle Silverman To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind people to think about. Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority groups in this country historically and in the present. More than that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination against other minority groups. Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I said about you being blind was very different from what you said about my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference here? I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get members of the public to see this? Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? I look forward to the discussion. Best, Arielle From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Nov 2 20:40:30 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 15:40:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minority groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm... Perhaps the we need the equivalent of the Black Panthers? The Blind Moles? Okay, okay, needs work! LOL Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Arielle, I think you're right that speaking about blindness in such a negative way is no different than speaking about other minorities in this fashion. I think the problem is twofold. First, people honestly feel that they are being kind to us, but they understand on some level that negative comments about other minorities are not kind; most people don't understand how their kindness impacts us. The other problem is that, up to this point, we haven't spoken with a clear voice on the matter of how we're treated by the sighted. Yes, there are our banquet speeches and our public announcements, but we're pressured into everyday politeness by both blind and sighted persons so much that we're afraid to tell the sighted how their so-called kindness really impacts us; the end result is that the sighted have no idea how we really feel about their behavior and we continue to have the same old issues we've had forever. Other minorities have done a much better job of voicing their frustrations than we have on an interpersonal level. We've conditioned ourselves into thinking that we owe the sighted some form of special courtesy since we're so afraid that they're going to judge us all based on the reactions of one person. If you want evidence, consider "Don't Throw the Nickel" and "The Nature of Independence." Let me say now what I've personally decided to do when it comes to this very issue. I stressed myself out to the point of needing counseling over whether or not the sighted would judge all of us based on my actions; I stressed out because i was afraid of how the rest of you might judge me if you ever found out about how I handled this or that interaction. That's a hell of a lot of pressure! I personally internalized the frustrations of all of us and this obsessive need to educate the sighted. I felt it was my responsibility to be an ambassador for the blind. I'm not kidding when I tell you that I emotionally hurt myself and physically drained my personal resources. After a lot of soul-searching and some professional help, I've decided to abdicate my role as ambassador for the blind unless I willingly put myself in that position (e.g. a meet the blind month activity or presentation on blindness). I have also abdicated my role as the educator. I've decided to stop dialoguing with the sighted through education and I've decided to start educating through dialogue. This needs explaining. If a sighted person says "You do so well that I forget you're blind," I say (if I think it's important enough), "I feel stuck when I hear you say that I'm so good at X that you forget that I'm blind. First, I feel forced to thank you for what you perceived to be a compliment because, if I don't thank you, I'm the rude one here. But at the same time, I feel hurt that you would say something like that because I hear you saying that you don't expect me to do so well because I'm blind and so are surprised, or that you somehow think that I'm better than whatever image you've created of me and my blind friends. This isn't to say that I don't recognize your attempt at kindness, but I'd rather you tell me that you appreciate something I'm good at because I'm good at it, not because I seem to go beyond an expectation I perceive you've set for me." Use whatever words you like folks. If you're genuinely grateful for the comment, say so. If you're angry, say so. But for goodness sake, don't just be quiet because you're expected to be polite. This is a great way to stack these things up in your heart. And if you can't say whatever you need to say to the person you need to say it to, find someone to say it to like a friend or a colleague who understands you. Put it in an e-mail message or whatever you need to do. That's what other minorities have been doing with comments like this, and I don't understand why we've not caught on except that we somehow seem to think we don't deserve this kind of equality. And you know what, some sighted people won't get it no matter what you do or say. But some will, and they'll appreciate your heart-felt honesty a hell of a lot more than whatever platitude you offer. Arielle, you asked some of us to talk about our other minority statuses if we have them. I fit into the "unusual religious belief" category, and my legal name reflects that fact. Some of you may know how much crap I've received from some regarding my preference to be called "Jedi" rather than my given name "Jennifer." I learned the hard way that going along to get along is a terrible choice. by going along to get along, I felt like some part of myself wasn't being heard. And if I fought against the tide of people telling me what to call myself, I felt like my words and reasons were falling into nothingness, even by people who cared about me but couldn't understand how important this preference was to me. So finally, i decided that I need to respect myself, especially because i wasn't getting much from others in this respect. So I changed my name legally and now it's no problem. I'm sure some people were disappointed in me for whatever reason. But I think they learned to respect me more as a person because I stood up for myself and didn't ask their permission to be who and what I am. I think the sighted are the same way. Maybe dramatic demonstrations such as mine aren't required in every situation, but I think we need to be ready for those times when they are. So in short, when you find yourself in a situation where a sighted person has said or done something to you, think about how that really makes you feel inside. And if it's important to you, make it a point to say whatever it is you feel you need to say. And since the rest of us aren't with you when you're going through this process, none of us have the right to judge you for whatever you do because we might have done the same had we been in your shoes. And if we really support each other and our collective bid for freedom, we shouldn't judge you anyway. Only you know what's right for you in how you deal with the sighted, and your experiences will tell you if any changes are needed to your approach. As to the reactions of the sighted, realize that they'll get over it; they're just as resilient as we are, and someone might actually take what you have to say to heart, I've heard it happen before and I've witnessed it myself. And really folks, we can't expect ourselves to represent all of us all of the time. We are a people's movement, yes. But first and foremost, we are people. If what I say feels right to any of you, let's get in contact because I'm working on some workshops in which ideas like these can be further explored and spread to the Federationists who are interested in this kind of thing. Thanks for asking the question, Arielle. It's high time someone did. Respectfully, Jedi From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 2 20:46:24 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:46:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: 9903e7dd-e4a6-4633-91f5-73e9af418f97@samobile.net Carly, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to respond to your message. I'm not sure what you mean when you say the following: > That said, I feel sometimes that being "white," > although I am not your blond-haired, blue-eyed > variety of white chick but a half Mediterranean > one whose people came through Ellis Island, > around the turn of last century, I > feel sometimes that regardless of the origins > of my ancestors, white skin is often tragically > synonymous with notions of white privilage and > the mythodical, pillaging, this race has wrought > upon people from all over the world. > 'Seems to me that, an only time a person's race > can be seen as a handicap is when the majority, > projects such, upon a person who of course is > powerless to effect into which race he is born. While it's true that White individuals aren't directly responsible for thoughts and actions of others against minorities, Whites in general (no matter where they come from and when) benefit from White Privilege. Since being White is right in our world, Whites have the luxury of not worrying about it until it confronts us in the face. And instead of owning the fact that White people benefit from having white skin, Whites use the "it's not my fault that I'm White" line as an escape. Meanwhile, people with darker skin fight for equality that Whites take for granted since White is normal. The same can be said of the sighted in the case Arielle brings to us. She's saying that sighted people benefit by being treated as automatically competent because they're sighted and normal. The blind, on the other hand, are treated as automatically incompetent unless we minimally exceed the low expectations the sighted have set for us And when we do excel, we're oh so special and wonderful, but still not normal or responsible. And the sighted have such privilege that they never have to worry about that fact until it confronts them in the face, and they get angry and defensive when it does. But the fact is that, in order for people to understand this privilege, blind people need to confront the sighted and their sight bias because, like many White people in the struggle of minorities for equality, many sighted people will decide that it's worth the trouble to examine their beliefs and ideas in order to create a more just and equal society where people are allowed to excel in their own right instead of excelling within socially acceptable lines. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Good morning, Darian a neighbor from just across the bay, > Reading your poast has begged the > question, Why need we equate race or ethnicity with disability? > That said, I feel sometimes that being "white," > although I am not your blond-haired, blue-eyed > variety of white chick but a half Mediterranean > one whose people came through Ellis Island, > around the turn of last century, I > feel sometimes that regardless of the origins > of my ancestors, white skin is often tragically > synonymous with notions of white privilage and > the mythodical, pillaging, this race has wrought > upon people from all over the world. > 'Seems to me that, an only time a person's race > can be seen as a handicap is when the majority, > projects such, upon a person who of course is > powerless to effect into which race he is born. > for today, > Car2/2011, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi all, >> I’m just throwing out some thoughts here, so please keep that in >> mind when reading, if you will >> I identify as being both blind and African-american. I find that >> (as you can imagine) people notice both my dark skin tone and the >> not-so dark NFB cane I use. It seems to me that when I interact with >> people, they notice my cane way before my skin tone (you can argue >> both good and bad for this if you really wanted to). In many >> situations, I find that if I am going to find myself in a >> discriminatory situation, it is about 98to 99 times out of 100 that >> it’s due to my blindness. As I think about it, there might have been >> a few times that the race card has been pulled, but blindness was >> being used as a cover in those situations. Does blindness blur >> color lines? Sometimes I feel like in Pan-disability gatherings >> blindness is the one disability that people really get most worked up >> over. The assumptionis made on some level that the blind person >> needs the most assistance because they can’t see, or their cane is >> viewed as a weapon ­ something to be really concerned about as a >> wheelchair user may figure. >> This is a really really interesting thread (thanks again, >> Arielle!). Unfortunately I don’t have a great amount to contribute >> but a few thoughts. >> Have a wonderful day folks! >> Darian >> On 11/1/11, Beth wrote: >>> YEs. That makes sense. People tell me one thing, and I see >>> another. Deq is a very able person, and I see a lot of >>> discrimination against Africans, African Americans (who didn't >>> come here straight out of Africa) and Latinos being discriminated >>> against in the education system because teachers say, "These >>> people are not intelligent." The blind are also discriminated >>> against in the same ways. >>> Beth >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jedi >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date sent: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 00:15:44 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >>> Beth, >>> Could you clarify what you mean by the following? >>> Deq, my Somali friend, is so sweet, and so intelligent, I forget >>> about >>> the whole Somali thing. >>> The only reason I ask you to clarify what you mean is because >>> this is >>> exactly the comment that Arielle is so frustrated with. Are you >>> saying >>> that you forget about the stupid things people say about Somali >>> people >>> because of how sweet and intelligent your friend is? If so, >>> you're >>> saying the same thing that people say about us as blind people. >>> So, it >>> would sound like "My friend is so sweet and intelligent that I >>> forget >>> how some people say that the blind are incapable." Does that make >>> sense? >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> Original message: >>> Try being Blind, Muslim, and Somali. I converted to Islam and >>> associate with Somalis, who are viewed as "violent, bombers, >>> people who just want to absolutely throw you into a ditch." Not >>> that anyone has ever said that. But the news views Somalis as >>> "confidants of Al Shabbab" and so on. Deq, my Somali friend, is >>> so sweet, and so intelligent, I forget about the whole Somali >>> thing. Being a Muslim is not a bad dea at all. Jedi, I see >>> what >>> you've got in the "unusual religion" category. I don't think >>> your stuff is too unusual. Your religion could be categorized >>> as >>> "super Buddhism". My religion could be classified according to >>> interpretations of the Quran. To those who practice >>> Judaeo-Christian heritage, I don't think it's a bad heritage. >>> I've been there. But I didn't feel it was appropriate because >>> the charismmatic Christians in my family didn't feel that >>> blindness is something bearable. Islam believes that if you >>> "suffer", or if you really are suffering from mental illness or >>> blindness, then if you are also patient with what you have, then >>> you are bound for Heaven or Paradise as we call it. Being blind >>> AND a Muslim is a bad idea in some states like Florida, but not >>> a >>> bad idea in Colorado, where the Somali population is third >>> largest only to one other state ad Minnesota. I don't remember, >>> uh, I think it was Maine I was thinking of. I'm not Somali >>> myself, but since Deq is a Somali, people tend to say things >>> that >>> aren't so nice about him, blind or otherwise. I usually stop >>> and >>> defend him. >>> Beth >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jedi >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date sent: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 23:27:07 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >>> Arielle, >>> I think you're right that speaking about blindness in such a >>> negative >>> way is no different than speaking about other minorities in this >>> fashion. I think the problem is twofold. First, people honestly >>> feel >>> that they are being kind to us, but they understand on some >>> level >>> that >>> negative comments about other minorities are not kind; most >>> people >>> don't understand how their kindness impacts us. The other >>> problem >>> is >>> that, up to this point, we haven't spoken with a clear voice on >>> the >>> matter of how we're treated by the sighted. Yes, there are our >>> banquet >>> speeches and our public announcements, but we're pressured into >>> everyday politeness by both blind and sighted persons so much >>> that >>> we're afraid to tell the sighted how their so-called kindness >>> really >>> impacts us; the end result is that the sighted have no idea how >>> we >>> really feel about their behavior and we continue to have the >>> same >>> old >>> issues we've had forever. Other minorities have done a much >>> better job >>> of voicing their frustrations than we have on an interpersonal >>> level. >>> We've conditioned ourselves into thinking that we owe the >>> sighted >>> some >>> form of special courtesy since we're so afraid that they're >>> going >>> to >>> judge us all based on the reactions of one person. If you want >>> evidence, consider "Don't Throw the Nickel" and "The Nature of >>> Independence." >>> Let me say now what I've personally decided to do when it comes >>> to this >>> very issue. I stressed myself out to the point of needing >>> counseling >>> over whether or not the sighted would judge all of us based on >>> my >>> actions; I stressed out because i was afraid of how the rest of >>> you >>> might judge me if you ever found out about how I handled this or >>> that >>> interaction. That's a hell of a lot of pressure! I personally >>> internalized the frustrations of all of us and this obsessive >>> need to >>> educate the sighted. I felt it was my responsibility to be an >>> ambassador for the blind. I'm not kidding when I tell you that I >>> emotionally hurt myself and physically drained my personal >>> resources. >>> After a lot of soul-searching and some professional help, I've >>> decided >>> to abdicate my role as ambassador for the blind unless I >>> willingly put >>> myself in that position (e.g. a meet the blind month activity or >>> presentation on blindness). I have also abdicated my role as the >>> educator. I've decided to stop dialoguing with the sighted >>> through >>> education and I've decided to start educating through dialogue. >>> This >>> needs explaining. If a sighted person says "You do so well that >>> I >>> forget you're blind," I say (if I think it's important enough), >>> "I feel >>> stuck when I hear you say that I'm so good at X that you forget >>> that >>> I'm blind. First, I feel forced to thank you for what you >>> perceived to >>> be a compliment because, if I don't thank you, I'm the rude one >>> here. >>> But at the same time, I feel hurt that you would say something >>> like >>> that because I hear you saying that you don't expect me to do so >>> well >>> because I'm blind and so are surprised, or that you somehow >>> think >>> that >>> I'm better than whatever image you've created of me and my blind >>> friends. This isn't to say that I don't recognize your attempt >>> at >>> kindness, but I'd rather you tell me that you appreciate >>> something I'm >>> good at because I'm good at it, not because I seem to go beyond >>> an >>> expectation I perceive you've set for me." Use whatever words >>> you >>> like >>> folks. If you're genuinely grateful for the comment, say so. If >>> you're >>> angry, say so. But for goodness sake, don't just be quiet >>> because >>> you're expected to be polite. This is a great way to stack these >>> things >>> up in your heart. And if you can't say whatever you need to say >>> to the >>> person you need to say it to, find someone to say it to like a >>> friend >>> or a colleague who understands you. Put it in an e-mail message >>> or >>> whatever you need to do. That's what other minorities have been >>> doing >>> with comments like this, and I don't understand why we've not >>> caught on >>> except that we somehow seem to think we don't deserve this kind >>> of >>> equality. And you know what, some sighted people won't get it no >>> matter >>> what you do or say. But some will, and they'll appreciate your >>> heart-felt honesty a hell of a lot more than whatever platitude >>> you offer. >>> Arielle, you asked some of us to talk about our other minority >>> statuses >>> if we have them. I fit into the "unusual religious belief" >>> category, >>> and my legal name reflects that fact. Some of you may know how >>> much >>> crap I've received from some regarding my preference to be >>> called >>> "Jedi" rather than my given name "Jennifer." I learned the hard >>> way >>> that going along to get along is a terrible choice. by going >>> along to >>> get along, I felt like some part of myself wasn't being heard. >>> And if I >>> fought against the tide of people telling me what to call >>> myself, >>> I >>> felt like my words and reasons were falling into nothingness, >>> even by >>> people who cared about me but couldn't understand how important >>> this >>> preference was to me. So finally, i decided that I need to >>> respect >>> myself, especially because i wasn't getting much from others in >>> this >>> respect. So I changed my name legally and now it's no problem. >>> I'm sure >>> some people were disappointed in me for whatever reason. But I >>> think >>> they learned to respect me more as a person because I stood up >>> for >>> myself and didn't ask their permission to be who and what I am. >>> I >>> think >>> the sighted are the same way. Maybe dramatic demonstrations such >>> as >>> mine aren't required in every situation, but I think we need to >>> be >>> ready for those times when they are. >>> So in short, when you find yourself in a situation where a >>> sighted >>> person has said or done something to you, think about how that >>> really >>> makes you feel inside. And if it's important to you, make it a >>> point to >>> say whatever it is you feel you need to say. And since the rest >>> of us >>> aren't with you when you're going through this process, none of >>> us have >>> the right to judge you for whatever you do because we might have >>> done >>> the same had we been in your shoes. And if we really support >>> each >>> other >>> and our collective bid for freedom, we shouldn't judge you >>> anyway. Only >>> you know what's right for you in how you deal with the sighted, >>> and >>> your experiences will tell you if any changes are needed to your >>> approach. As to the reactions of the sighted, realize that >>> they'll get >>> over it; they're just as resilient as we are, and someone might >>> actually take what you have to say to heart, I've heard it >>> happen >>> before and I've witnessed it myself. And really folks, we can't >>> expect >>> ourselves to represent all of us all of the time. We are a >>> people's >>> movement, yes. But first and foremost, we are people. >>> If what I say feels right to any of you, let's get in contact >>> because >>> I'm working on some workshops in which ideas like these can be >>> further >>> explored and spread to the Federationists who are interested in >>> this >>> kind of thing. >>> Thanks for asking the question, Arielle. It's high time someone >>> did. >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> Original message: >>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, >>> but I >>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as >>> blind >>> people to think about. >>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced >>> by the >>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other >>> minority >>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More >>> than >>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us >>> as a >>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It >>> has >>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat >>> us >>> in >>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering >>> that >>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and >>> discrimination >>> against other minority groups. >>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the >>> Blind, Jim >>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center >>> and a >>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job >>> so >>> well, >>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, >>> Mr. >>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a >>> philosophy >>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You >>> are such >>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, >>> what I >>> said about you being blind was very different from what you >>> said >>> about >>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, >>> so >>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To >>> me >>> this >>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to >>> a >>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a >>> difference >>> here? >>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views >>> about >>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless >>> have >>> no >>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like >>> saying >>> blind >>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that >>> blind >>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, >>> etc. >>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't >>> understand >>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members >>> will >>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. >>> They >>> think >>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I >>> don't >>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a >>> collective. >>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that >>> they >>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the >>> protests >>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many >>> people >>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could >>> do-and yet >>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in >>> our >>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed >>> that the >>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a >>> survey >>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet >>> would >>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in >>> fact, >>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap >>> those >>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit >>> their >>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more >>> accurate >>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination >>> against >>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are >>> such >>> a >>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the >>> same >>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's >>> awareness? Do >>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other >>> minorities >>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do >>> we get >>> members of the public to see this? >>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who >>> are >>> "dual >>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group >>> in >>> this >>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, >>> uncommon >>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities >>> are >>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>> I look forward to the discussion. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi >>> %40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>> Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>> se%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi >>> %40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. >>> Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>> se%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> -- >> Darian Smith >> "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the >> formula >> for a life well lived." >> - Dr. Peter Benson >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 2 20:53:20 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:53:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minority groups Message-ID: ef9b1671-465f-4c4b-8cd7-511b7cd8d5c3@samobile.net Bridgit, Never apologize for what you say here if it comes from your deepest experience. This is exactly the discussion we should be having. And really, there is nothing dirty about feminism. In fact, feminists have been saying the same thing for decades that you've just said here on list. So while you personally may not identify as feminist, you do share feminist beliefs. I identify as a feminist, and we're not all bra-burning crazies out to get men, we're just men and women who are as sick of sex oppression as you are. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Arielle, > I don't have the energy to discuss this topic- at least today. It is an > important one though and something to be considered. It's not just > blindness, though we tend to get the worse of it in my experience, that > have to deal with societal stereotypes. We're still deemed less > fortunate and viewed with fear and sadness. Those of us who "manage" to > pursue higher education and employment and families, we're just brave > and some exceptional breed of disabled people. It's interesting that > people don't equate their comments to providing an underlying message > that we're somehow less of a person or not as capable. > It's tough to argue that kindness can be discrimination. I've tried, and > even though I'm the one living the experience, most won't concede to my > argument, and instead choose to think I'm a horrible person who likes to > cause trouble. Okay, that may not be far from the mark, but there's a > principle here! LOL > One of the reasons I've stepped down from a lot of my involvement with > the Federation for now is because I, to be honest, get tired of my life > revolving around blindness. I believe in the Federation and know how > important it is to continue the work of this organization, but before I > lost my sight, I had dreams, desires, goals, passions, and they didn't > go away just because my sight did. I want to pursue those same things. > But I must admit buckets of cold water are thrown in my face each time I > enter a situation and all people see is an indefinable person with a > cane. I'm the monkey in the zoo; the rare wonder happening before > peoples eyes. It takes a lot of aggression on my part just to prove that > I am capable and to get others to understand I can participate. It's > tough, and I am tired of always having to do this instead of being able > to show up and just be accepted. > You ask about those with blindness who also are apart of another > minority- don't forget women. I notice how different I'm treated as a > female who is also blind. There's chivalry and courteousness, and then > there's annoying, demeaning and unfair. I've been told to my face that > as a blind woman, I'm more of a victim and in danger. My dad has always > pushed for me to use a service dog because a dog "could protect me." No > matter that I explain that this isn't the job of a service dog, to him, > I'm not safe on my own. Ross, my husband, who's also blind, is often > treated differently than me even when together. I've been wrangled like > a cow while Ross is left alone. Or, people will think that if Ross is > with me than I'm okay, but if he's not, then I'm vulnerable. > This makes me feel like I'm somehow not as capable as a man. I am > cautious and understand that I need to be aware of my surroundings in > order to keep safe, but anyone does. It's not about being feminist or > trying to assert some power over men; it's about feeling equal and as > though as an adult I can care for myself instead of being treated like a > child. I notice women tend to be on the bottom of the barrel no matter > what. Race, ethnicity, disability, gay, if female, it seems like more of > a struggle. African-Americans were given the right to vote long before > women. Women weren't expected to cultivate their intellect until the > 70's and 80's. Before then, we attended university to find husbands. If > women had to work, there was a small field of employment we could choose > from. Women are still paid less even when working the same positions as > men. My point is that women are still fighting for equality. I'm not > against the traditional "roles" often attributed to men and women, but > the problem is that we've often considered the "feminine role" as > inferior; until we view everyone as equals, we will continue to struggle > with these issues. > I also want to point out that while most don't openly disrespect other > minorities or make stereotypical comments out loud, things are said > behind closed doors. It's become politically incorrect to comment like > this, but racism and prejudice are still in existence and continue to > flourish. > I'm often called a cynic, but I only speak from life experience. > Equality is a goal spouted by many but understood by few. As long as > there are agendas to push, beliefs to be instilled, or forced, > distinctions made to gather prejudicial statistics, equality and respect > for all won't be achieved in this world. > It's cold, raining and sleeting in Omaha today; perhaps the weather is > affecting my mood. I apologize. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind > people to think about. Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the > problems faced by the blind are similar to or different from those faced > by other minority groups in this country historically and in the > present. More than that, I have been thinking about how the general > public sees us as a group in comparison to how they view other minority > groups. It has struck me that oftentimes members of the general public > treat us in discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even > considering that this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and > discrimination against other minority groups. Let me give a concrete > example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim Omvig writes of a time > when he was directing a training center and a female staff member at the > center commented, "You do your job so well, sometimes I forget you're > blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. Omvig brought up this incident > to his students during a philosophy class, and to illustrate his point > he said to the woman, "You are such a good teacher, sometimes I forget > you're a woman!" From what I recall, the staff member got a bit upset > and insisted that "no, what I said about you being blind was very > different from what you said about my being a woman. I was just trying > to give you a compliment!" Now, as blind people most of us understand > the problem with her comment-the implication that being blind must not > be very good, so someone who does a good job isn't like other blind > people. To me this sounds like the same problem as making the analogous > comment to a woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a > difference here? I have often been quite frustrated when people I know > and trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination against > racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no qualms about > saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind people are all > worse than the sighted at something, or that blind people are more > dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. They will sometimes > say these things to my face and don't understand why I don't like to > hear these things. Sometimes family members will make comments comparing > me favorably to other blind people. They think they are giving me > compliments, and fail to understand that I don't want to hear negative > things spoken about the blind as a collective. Yet these same people > would never tell an African American that they are "smart for a black > person" etc. I remember during the protests against the Blindness film > in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people just didn't get it, and > didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet an analogous film where > everyone developed black skin or female anatomy with such dire > consequences would never be accepted in our modern society. And finally, > in my research, I have observed that the college students in my > experiments have no problem saying on a survey that the blind are much > less competent than the sighted, yet would never say such things > directly about another minority group-in fact, lots of fancy indirect > measures have been developed to tap those attitudes because people > nowadays are so unwilling to admit their prejudices, unless it's toward > the blind. So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more > accurate than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination > against the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such > a small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do you > guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities in > this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get > members of the public to see this? Also, as an aside, I'm curious to > hear from those of you who are "dual minorities" being both blind and a > member of a minority group in this country (ethnicity-wise, or a > different group like GLBT, uncommon religious beliefs etc.) How do you > think your two identities are similar? Different? Do you feel they > interact with one another? I look forward to the discussion. Best, > Arielle > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 02:15:05 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 22:15:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Christian lists In-Reply-To: References: <3565D99753934EC79F0D078592E320BB@OwnerPC> <68A3E69A50404AEE96606660EA696D76@OwnerPC> Message-ID: hey thanks for putting this question out there ashley. I too am interested in this but it had not came to my mind to ask. On 11/2/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Ashley: > I have one. > Maribeth Flin is our owner. > groups.yahoo.com/groups/apostleslist > This list is for Apostolic Pentecostals and those interested in what we > believe. > There are 4 people on this list, but 3 of us are active members. > The list owner doesn't log on, so she lets me use the password, so I > can moderate the list. > To subscribe, E-mail this address. > apostleslist-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > To post, apostleslist at yahoogroups.com. > This is not just a message for Ashley, but for others that would be > interested in joining this list. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/2/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Andrew, >> Thanks. I'll check for your email. I think I got it. There are many with >> the >> lists I'm on. >> I'll check the sites out. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Andrew Edgcumbe >> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 11:45 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Christian lists >> >> Ashley I sent you an email after i saw your message on faith-talk and >> things Anyway >> >> i sent you some address for groups you can join. >> If you did not get that email i will post them here. >> >> 1. icctalk >> Icctalk is a good friendly group of people and has prayer requests >> that get put out on that group it is an off shoot of the christian >> inter active christian community which i will talk about below there >> are other people on that group that don't go on the site much. >> to subscribe send blank email to icctalk-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >> The interactive christian community of spoken word ministries ran by >> rev tim snider and obviously you would need a mike but it is totally >> free for all people to join. the site in case any of you want to check >> it out is www.iccsite.com >> >> Also a friend and i do help moderate a email group ourselves. >> It is called Christians_Today >> >> You can go as deep as you wish to and things. By the way iccsite.com >> you are invited to check it out. >> Back to my group we always welcome new members and things. >> To subscribe send blank email to >> Christians_Today-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> There are two other group i will mention SeasonsChat >> It is a very good group for chatting and things like that Karolyn >> Philips runs this group same with another group i will menton as well. >> We do go very deep on these groups you can go as deep as you wish to. >> anyway to subscribe send email to >> SeasonsChat-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> There is also group called ShareThePrayer >> >> This group provides a place for prayer requests and just place to >> share prayer requests things like that. >> To subscribe send blank email to >> ShareThePrayer-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> >> If you go to seasons ofrefreshing.org you can particapate in a on >> line voice chat you don't have to sign up or anything just download >> the client tc client that is then just put your name in then enter >> the room no password is required no sign up is required s just down >> load the tc client and you are ready to go. note you would need a >> working mike. >> >> the site is www.seasonsofrefreshing.org >> >> I hope these groups will be helpful for you and i hope to see you on >> them or some of them. >> >> On 11/2/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I was wondering if there are Christian lists for blind people or ones in >>> general you’d recommend. I see the faith-talk, but you cannot go too deep >>> into theology there. >>> >>> I’m probably going to join a bible study, but the good thing about email >>> is >>> you can participate anytime. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Nov 3 02:17:23 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:17:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Christian lists In-Reply-To: References: <3565D99753934EC79F0D078592E320BB@OwnerPC> <68A3E69A50404AEE96606660EA696D76@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Lea: You're welcome to join my list, that I mentioned. Blessings, Joshua On 11/2/11, Lea williams wrote: > hey thanks for putting this question out there ashley. I too am > interested in this but it had not came to my mind to ask. > > On 11/2/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Ashley: >> I have one. >> Maribeth Flin is our owner. >> groups.yahoo.com/groups/apostleslist >> This list is for Apostolic Pentecostals and those interested in what we >> believe. >> There are 4 people on this list, but 3 of us are active members. >> The list owner doesn't log on, so she lets me use the password, so I >> can moderate the list. >> To subscribe, E-mail this address. >> apostleslist-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >> To post, apostleslist at yahoogroups.com. >> This is not just a message for Ashley, but for others that would be >> interested in joining this list. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 11/2/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Andrew, >>> Thanks. I'll check for your email. I think I got it. There are many with >>> the >>> lists I'm on. >>> I'll check the sites out. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Andrew Edgcumbe >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 11:45 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Christian lists >>> >>> Ashley I sent you an email after i saw your message on faith-talk and >>> things Anyway >>> >>> i sent you some address for groups you can join. >>> If you did not get that email i will post them here. >>> >>> 1. icctalk >>> Icctalk is a good friendly group of people and has prayer requests >>> that get put out on that group it is an off shoot of the christian >>> inter active christian community which i will talk about below there >>> are other people on that group that don't go on the site much. >>> to subscribe send blank email to icctalk-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >>> The interactive christian community of spoken word ministries ran by >>> rev tim snider and obviously you would need a mike but it is totally >>> free for all people to join. the site in case any of you want to check >>> it out is www.iccsite.com >>> >>> Also a friend and i do help moderate a email group ourselves. >>> It is called Christians_Today >>> >>> You can go as deep as you wish to and things. By the way iccsite.com >>> you are invited to check it out. >>> Back to my group we always welcome new members and things. >>> To subscribe send blank email to >>> Christians_Today-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >>> >>> There are two other group i will mention SeasonsChat >>> It is a very good group for chatting and things like that Karolyn >>> Philips runs this group same with another group i will menton as well. >>> We do go very deep on these groups you can go as deep as you wish to. >>> anyway to subscribe send email to >>> SeasonsChat-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >>> >>> There is also group called ShareThePrayer >>> >>> This group provides a place for prayer requests and just place to >>> share prayer requests things like that. >>> To subscribe send blank email to >>> ShareThePrayer-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >>> >>> >>> If you go to seasons ofrefreshing.org you can particapate in a on >>> line voice chat you don't have to sign up or anything just download >>> the client tc client that is then just put your name in then enter >>> the room no password is required no sign up is required s just down >>> load the tc client and you are ready to go. note you would need a >>> working mike. >>> >>> the site is www.seasonsofrefreshing.org >>> >>> I hope these groups will be helpful for you and i hope to see you on >>> them or some of them. >>> >>> On 11/2/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I was wondering if there are Christian lists for blind people or ones in >>>> general you’d recommend. I see the faith-talk, but you cannot go too >>>> deep >>>> into theology there. >>>> >>>> I’m probably going to join a bible study, but the good thing about email >>>> is >>>> you can participate anytime. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Lea Williams > > Phone; > 704-732-4470 > Skipe; > Lea.williams738 > Facebook > http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dandrews at visi.com Thu Nov 3 07:48:06 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 02:48:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New Jersey State Affiliate Convention Agenda Message-ID: The 35th Annual State Convention National Federation of the Blind of New Jersey Celebrating 20 Years of Parents of Blind Children Whosit logo MAKE A DIFFERENCE Crowne Plaza Hotel 36 Valley Rd., Clark, NJ 07066 November 11, 12, 13, 2011 Joseph Ruffalo, President 973-743-0075 nfbnj at yahoo.com www.nfbnj.org www.blindchildren.org www.thruoureyes.org Convention activities will be broadcast live in audio and video Friday, November 11 Live Reporting: 1:00 – 3:00 pm WCTC Radio NJ Today Listen on 1450 AM or www.wctcam.com Saturday, November 12 Program: 9:00 am to 12:00 pm 2:00 pm to 5:00 pm Banquet: 8:30 pm. to conclusion Listen or watch live at www.thruoureyes.org Smartphone or JAWS access at http://m.thruoureyes.org Also broadcasting on Twitter, Facebook, uStream.tv, Justin.tv, and blogtalkradio.com The National Federation of the Blind is changing what it means to be blind. Mission Statement The National Federation of the Blind is an organization where the blind and interested sighted persons can come together to plan and carry out programs to improve the quality of life of the blind; to provide a means of collective action for parents of blind children; to promote the vocational, cultural, and social advancement of the blind; to achieve the integration of the blind into society on a basis of equality with the sighted; and to take action which will improve the overall condition and standard of living of the blind. The Federation works toward the removal of legal, economic, and social barriers to full participation by blind people in all aspects of community life. The National Federation of the Blind is an organization of the blind speaking for themselves. The National Federation of the Blind Pledge I pledge to participate actively in the efforts of the National Federation of the Blind to achieve equality, opportunity, and security for the blind; to support the programs and policies of the Federation; and to abide by its constitution. Spotlight on NFB of NJ Established in 1976, the National Federation of the Blind of New Jersey is an affiliate of the National Federation of the Blind, the oldest and largest organization of and for the blind/visually impaired in the United States. Our eight chapters and eight divisions provide invaluable information and resources to blind/visually impaired people throughout the state. Chapters meet monthly; divisions hold events at various times throughout the year. Why not join a division­the Association to Promote the Use of Braille, Diabetes, Guide Dog Users, Merchants, Parents of Blind Children, Students, Seniors, and Technology. We would welcome your participation. Tune into Thru Our Eyes, our internet audio and video program featuring issues and information pertaining to blindness at www.thruoureyes.org. For state, chapter, division, and committee news, visit our website www.nfbnj.org. Subscribe to the Sounding Board Get our state newsletter, the Sounding Board, conveniently delivered to your email inbox. To subscribe, send a message with the words subscribe Sounding Board in the subject line to beatrice.oliveti at gmail.com. You can access the audio version of the Sounding Board at www.nfbnj.org, www.thruoureyes.org, and on Newsline. Funding Our Movement Donations to the National Federation of the Blind of NJ are tax deductible. Mark a special date in honor of or in memory of a loved one with a gift to the NFB of NJ. Platinum Sponsor of the 2011 State Convention ADVANCED DIABETIC SOLUTIONS, Lawrenceville, GA Contact information for speakers can be found on the last page of the agenda. FRIDAY, NOV. 11, 2011 MAKE A DIFFERENCE SEMINAR­Grand Ballroom 9:00 am–6:00 pm­Registration Open MAKE A DIFFERENCE Seminar/Convention registration: $15 Box lunch can be purchased in Grand Ballroom: $13 9:00 am–6:00 pm Exhibit Hall Open­Washington Room 10:00–11:30 am Looking Good Without Looking Workshop­Adams Room Fashion, beauty, and personal style for men, women, and teens. Johanna Baccan, Makeup Diva 12:00 pm Welcome to the MAKE A DIFFERENCE Seminar!­Grand Ballroom Joseph Ruffalo, President, NFB of NJ; National Board Member, NFB; Program Manager, Puerto Rican Assoc. for Human Development, Inc. 12:10 pm How YOU Can Make a Difference Ever Lee Hairston, National Board Member; VP, NFB of California 12:20 pm Advanced Diabetic Solutions, Convention Platinum Sponsor Edward “EJ” McKenna, Account Manager, ADS 12:45–2:45 pm Technology: How? What? Why? Michele Chaney, President, Technology Division Find out about the BookSense, Victor Reader, iPhone, and apps that blind people are using every day, such as EyeNote, LookTell Money Reader, AroundMe, vizwiz, & more. 1:00–4:00 pm POSSIBILITIES Seminar­Jefferson Room Carol Castellano, Pres, Parents of Blind Children-NJ Topics include Braille, mobility, brand-new technology, education, the role of the Commission, advocacy, social skill, music 3:00–4:00 pm Diabetes Division Workshop & Meeting­Grand Ballroom Vincent Chaney, President, Diabetes Division 4:00–4:45 pm Division Meetings Merchants Division­Jefferson Room Anna DeSantis, President NJ Association to Promote the Use of Braille­Madison Room Mary Jo Partyka, President Student Division­Adams Room Evelyn Valdez, President Seniors Division­Grand Ballroom Jane Degenshein, Chairperson PLEASE RETURN TO THE GRAND BALLROOM AFTER DIVISION MEETINGS 4:50 pm Wrap-Up and Door Prizes Joe Ruffalo, Pres., NFB of NJ 5:00–6:00 pm Visit the Vendors in the Exhibit Area­Washington Room Registration Open 7:00 pm Resolutions Committee Meeting­Jefferson Mary Jo Partyka, Chair All are welcome. 8:00–11:00 pm Talent Showcase, Music and Dancing, Special Activities, Horse Racing, and much more­Grand Ballroom Hosted by Parents of Blind Children-NJ and NFB of NJ Jane Degenshein & Holly Miller, Hosts Cash Bar Vendors will be available in the Exhibit Hall­Washington Room at the following times: Friday 9:00 am – 6:00 pm Saturday 7:45 am – 8:45 am 12:00 pm – 1:45 pm NOTE: Breakfast will be served from 6:45 – 8:30 am on Saturday morning in the Jefferson Room for those registered in the hotel. Bring your breakfast coupon. SATURDAY, NOV. 12, 2011 Note: We will be audio and video recording and broadcasting the Convention. 6:45–8:30 am Breakfast for those registered in the hotel­ Jefferson Room Bring your coupon! 7:00–8:30 am NJ Assoc. of Guide Dog Users Division Breakfast Meeting­ Adams Room; Vincent Chaney, President; Special Guest­ Assemblyman Robert Schroeder 7:45 am Registration and Exhibit Hall Open 8:45 am Child Care Opens 9:00 am Welcome, Call to Order Joseph Ruffalo, President, NFB of NJ Annmarie Cooke, Member, At-Large Chapter 9:10 am Invocation Carl & Mindy Jacobson 9:15 am Opening Ceremonies Host Division, Parents of Blind Children-NJ; Carol Castellano, President 9:25 am Introduction of Scholarship Class of 2011 Jerilyn Higgins, Chair 9:30 am Presidential Report Joseph Ruffalo, President, NFB of NJ 10:00 am National Update: Working Together to Make a Difference Ever Lee Hairston, National Board Member; VP, NFB of California 10:40 am Library Update: Is Outspoken Speaking? Adam Szczepaniak, Director, NJ Talking Book & Braille Center 11:00 am Possibilities Carol Castellano, President, Parents of Blind Children-NJ 11:20 am Imagination Fund Evelyn Valdez, Chair; Evelyn Valdez, Jerilyn Higgins, Joe Ruffalo 11:40 am The PAC Plan Ryan Stevens, Chair 11:50 am Platinum Sponsor: Advanced Diabetic Solutions Edward “EJ” McKenna, Regional Representative, ADS 12:00 pm Adjourn 12:00–2:00 pm Lunch­Reminder: You must have a lunch ticket. Network with Vendors 1:00-1:45 pm Technology Division Meeting­Adams Room Michele Chaney, President 1:00–1:45 pm POBC-NJ Meeting­Grand Ballroom Carol Castellano, President, POBC-NJ Ever Lee Hairston, NFB National Representative 1:45 pm Child Care Reopens Note: We will be audio and video recording and broadcasting the Convention. AFTERNOON SESSION 2:00 pm Call to Order 2:05 pm A Teacher Takes a Hand, Opens a Mind, Touches a Heart Agnes Allen, Emily Fusco, Granddaughter, Holly Westefeld 2:30 pm POBC-NJ: Helping Families & Kids for 20 Years! Carol Castellano, President, POBC-NJ; Barbara Cheadle, President Emerita, National Organization of Parents of Blind Children; Holly Miller, Board Member, POBC-NJ, NOPBC 3:00 pm The Governor Speaks Up on Behalf of the Blind David Paterson, former Governor, NY; host, WOR Radio 3:30 pm Adventures on the Quad Shafeka Hashash, Mark Colasurdo, Students, NFB Scholarship Recipients 3:50 pm Colorado Center for the Blind: Opportunities for Youth & Adults Wayne Marshall, Counselor, CCB; Steve Patton, Cane Travel Instructor, CCB; Melissa Lomax, Jeremy Capati, Students 4:10 pm We Rode into History Joe Ruffalo, President, NFB of NJ; Hank Miller, Brian Woolbert, Students 4:25 pm Senior Possibilities Joe Ruffalo, Pres., NFB of NJ; Jane Degenshein, Senior Division; Tyrone Mance, Member 4:40 pm NFB of NJ Past, Present, Future Sharon Maneki, NFB of MD; Rick Fox, NFB of NJ; Evelyn Valdez, Student Division 4:55 pm Announcements 5:00 pm Adjourn 6:45–11:00 pm Banquet­Grand Ballroom Note: We will be audio and video recording and broadcasting parts of the Banquet. Master of Ceremonies­Nicky Gacos Invocation­Jerry Moreno Banquet Address– Ever Lee Hairston, NFB National Representative Presentation of Scholarships­Jerilyn Higgins, Scholarship Chair NFBNJ Scholarships Rose and Joseph Ruffalo, Sr. Scholarship Announcement Auction SUNDAY, NOV. 13, 2011 Morning Devotions will be held from 7–7:30 am on Sunday in the Adams Room. 7:45 am Breakfast­Grand Ballroom­Bring your breakfast coupon. 9:00 am–12:00 pm Program and Business Meeting­Grand Ballroom Invocation, Rebecca Irvin Roll Call of Chapters and Divisions Leadership/Building MembershipSeminar­Kathy Rawa, Lydia Keller, Jane Degenshein Funding Our Movement­Joe Ruffalo, Lynn Reynolds Resolutions­Mary Jo Partyka, Chair Legislative Action­Lynn Reynolds, Legislative. Coord., NFB of NJ The Importance of Public Relations­Ever Lee Hairston, Tara Carty, Rick Fox Committee Reports Elections National Federation of the Blind of New Jersey Officers President – Joseph Ruffalo 1st Vice President – Jerilyn Higgins 2nd Vice President – Mary Jo Partyka Secretary – Beatrice Oliveti Treasurer – Tom Ferry Board Members Dan Facchini Lynn Reynolds Ryan Stevens Evelyn Valdez Linda DeBerardinis Michele Chaney Chapters and Divisions At Large Chapter Joe Ruffalo 973-743-0075 Capitol Chapter Mary Jo Partyka 609-888-5459 Central Chapter Jerilyn Higgins 973-239-8874 Cumberland/Salem Chapter Ann Jordan 856-696-3905 Garden State Chapter Ed Godfrey 856-848-6372 Northeast Chapter Dan Facchini 201-906-8655 Northern Chapter Rebecca Irvin 973-732-6559 Ocean County Chapter Michael Halm 732-370-1797 Diabetes Division Vincent Chaney 732-251-8650 Merchants Division Anna DeSantis 732-462-4604 Parents of Blind Children-NJ Carol Castellano 973-377-0976 NJ Assoc. of Blind Students Evelyn Valdez 908-803-4891 NJ Assoc. to Promote Braille Mary Jo Partyka 609-888-5459 NJ Assoc. of Guide Dog Users Vincent Chaney 732-251-8650 Senior Division Jane Degenshein 973-736-5785 Technology Division Michele Chaney 732-251-8650 NFB National Divisions For a list of national divisions and committees, please visit www.nfb.org. Blindness can be reduced to a physical nuisance once the blind person learns and uses the proper techniques and skills of blindness. Our thanks to the NFB of NJ Northeast Chapter’s Thru Our Eyes, the WTOE radio network, and WCTC for broadcasting the Convention. Thru Our Eyes is sponsored by a grant from the NFB Imagination Fund. We thank Carol Castellano, Michele Chaney, and Jerilyn Higgins for their help on this agenda. Exhibitors PLATINUM SPONSOR Advanced Diabetic Solutions Edward “EJ” McKenna 1576 Atkinson Rd. Laurenceville, GA 30043 888-377-6382 emckenna at advanceddiabeticsolutions.net BRONZE SPONSORS ABI See Inc. Ilana Voleman 20 Main Street Suite G2 Acton, MA 978-635-0202 x15 ilana at abisee.com C-Tech Chuck Cohen 2 N Williams St. Pearl River, NY 10965 800-228-7798 DeWitt & Associates Rick Fox 700 Godwin Ave Midland Park, NJ 07432 201-447-6500 rick at 4dewitt.com The Seeing Eye Inc. Pat McKenna, Esq. Outreach Specialist 973-539-4425 x 1777 pmckenna at seeingeye.org CONVENTION SUPPORTERS HIP Susan Vanino 131 Main Street Suit 120 Hackensack, NJ 07601 201-996-9100 NJ Commission for the Blind & VI Pamela Gaston 153 Halsey Street 6th Floor PO Box 47017 Newark, NJ 07101 973-648-3333 pamela.gaston at dhs.state.nj.us NJ Talking Book & Braille Center Adam Szczepaniak 2300 Stuyvesant Ave Trenton, NJ 08618 800-792-8322 aszczepaniak at njstatelib.org Safeguard Marketing Charles Solomon P.O. Box 541 Cliffside Park, NJ 07010 201-840-5443 sageco at earthlink.net SW Unlimited, LLC Sherlock Washington 81 Ortley Ct. Matawan, NJ 07747 732-290-1677 sherlock at swunlimited.com Contact Information Johanna Baccan 201-934-6937 24kjo at optonline.net Tara Carty 973-650-4438 sugarfreet at gmail.com Carol Castellano 973-377-0976 blindchildren at verizon.net Michele Chaney 732-251-8650 msc732 at optonline.net Vincent Chaney 732-251-8650 vgc732 at optonline.net Barbara Cheadle 410-747-3472 BACheadle at msn.com Jane Degenshein 973-736-5785 jdegen16 at comcast.net Rick Fox 201-447-6500 rick at 4dewittassociates.net Ever Lee Hairston 323-654-2975 ever.hairston at gmail.com Jerilyn Higgins 973-239-8874 jdhiggins3 at verizon.net Rebecca Irvin 973-732-6559 rirvin14 at optonline.net Lydia Keller 856-696-3518 ljkfly1950 at verizon.net Sharon Maneki 410-715-9596 nfbmd at earthlink.net Wayne Marshall 303-778-1130 X233 wmarshall at cocenter.org Edward “EJ” McKenna 888-377-6382 emckenna at advanceddiabeticsolutions.net Steve Patton 303-778-1130 spatton at cocenter.org Kathy Rawa 973-216-8757 karmedtrans at aol.com Lynn Reynolds 732-599-7420 lhr1827 at optonline.net Joseph Ruffalo 973-743-0075 nfbnj at yahoo.com Adam Szczepaniak 800-792-8322 aszczepaniak at njstatelib.org Ryan Stevens 856-858-3518 rysteve at comcast.net Evelyn Valdez 908-803-4891 tweetybaby19 at comcast.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4a31de4.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dandrews at visi.com Thu Nov 3 08:34:17 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 03:34:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: ADV: Hadley eConnect, November 2, 2011 Message-ID: > > > > >This newsletter is best viewed in HTML format. >header image: eConnect from The Hadley School for the Blind > > >Seminars at Hadley Presents: The World Blind Union Today > >Date: Wednesday, November 9 > >Time: 2:00 PM CST, 20:00 GMT > >Have you heard about the World Blind Union (WBU) but aren't sure >exactly what it does? The World Blind Union, with members in 190 >countries, represents the 285 million blind and partially sighted >persons around the world, through three priority areas: >representation, capacity building and resource sharing. Join >Seminars at Hadley as WBU CEO Dr. Penny Hartin and WBU President >Maryanne Diamond discuss current initiatives within these priority >areas and issues of relevance to blind and partially sighted persons globally. > >A question and answer session will be included as part of the 60 >minute seminar moderated by Dawn Turco, Hadley's senior vice president. > >Space in this seminar is limited. Please only register if you know >you are available to attend so that others are not closed out. >To >register for this seminar, follow this link. > >Follow us on: > >facebook logo > >Facebook > >twitter logo > >Twitter > > > >About >Hadley >Enroll >Now >Donate >Online > >footer image: 'Lifelong Learning since 1920' The Hadley School > > > > > >This message was sent to Dandrews at visi.com from: > >The Hadley School for the Blind | 700 Elm St. | Winnetka, IL 60093 From dandrews at visi.com Thu Nov 3 08:37:19 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 03:37:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: ATI November Textbook Sale Message-ID: > >I'm pleased to announce a November textbook sale! Receive 25% off your >textbook order when you input "November" without the quotes in our customer >code field of our shopping cart. Be sure to submit the code. Your discount >is reflected immediately. > > > >Learn more about our textbooks at www.blindtraining.com/shop/ > > > >CathyAnne > > > >-- > > > >Access Technology Institute > >cathy at blindtraining.com > >www.blindtraining.com > > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >_______________________________________________ >News mailing list >News at lists.blindtraining.com >http://lists.blindtraining.com/listinfo.cgi/news-blindtraining.com From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Nov 3 11:36:11 2011 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 05:36:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Upcoming NFB Colorado State Convention Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott C. LaBarre To: NFB Affiliate Presidents List Cc: NFB Chapter Presidents discussion list Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 5:31 AM Subject: Upcoming NFB Colorado State Convention Greetings Friends, the NFB of Colorado will be conducting our 57th Annual State Convention this coming weekend and we will be streaming general sessions and the banquet live. Attached you will find our agenda. The stream will begin Friday morning at 10:00 a.m. mountain time. Please go to www.nfbco.org and follow links for the state convention to find the stream link. We will also try to send out an email to the various lists with a direct link to the stream. We are honored to have Patti Chang, National Board Member and President of the NFB of Illinois, as our National Representative and she will deliver an outstanding and sensational banquet speech Saturday evening. So, be sure to tune in to catch Patti's speech and many, many other wonderful items. Thanks, Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2011 nfbco convention agenda final.doc Type: application/msword Size: 90112 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 3 14:03:40 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:03:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Upcoming NFB Colorado State Convention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <338A20E5347247F69A4417DF2633C5C4@OwnerPC> Have a great convention. Our VA state convention is this weekend too! -----Original Message----- From: Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 7:36 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: NFB of Colorado Discussion List Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Upcoming NFB Colorado State Convention ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott C. LaBarre To: NFB Affiliate Presidents List Cc: NFB Chapter Presidents discussion list Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 5:31 AM Subject: Upcoming NFB Colorado State Convention Greetings Friends, the NFB of Colorado will be conducting our 57th Annual State Convention this coming weekend and we will be streaming general sessions and the banquet live. Attached you will find our agenda. The stream will begin Friday morning at 10:00 a.m. mountain time. Please go to www.nfbco.org and follow links for the state convention to find the stream link. We will also try to send out an email to the various lists with a direct link to the stream. We are honored to have Patti Chang, National Board Member and President of the NFB of Illinois, as our National Representative and she will deliver an outstanding and sensational banquet speech Saturday evening. So, be sure to tune in to catch Patti's speech and many, many other wonderful items. Thanks, Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 3 15:42:37 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 11:42:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: ADV: Hadley eConnect, November 2, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sounds good. I might attend. -----Original Message----- From: David Andrews Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 4:34 AM To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org. Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: ADV: Hadley eConnect, November 2, 2011 > > > > >This newsletter is best viewed in HTML format. >header image: eConnect from The Hadley School for the Blind > > >Seminars at Hadley Presents: The World Blind Union Today > >Date: Wednesday, November 9 > >Time: 2:00 PM CST, 20:00 GMT > >Have you heard about the World Blind Union (WBU) but aren't sure exactly >what it does? The World Blind Union, with members in 190 countries, >represents the 285 million blind and partially sighted persons around the >world, through three priority areas: representation, capacity building and >resource sharing. Join Seminars at Hadley as WBU CEO Dr. Penny Hartin and WBU >President Maryanne Diamond discuss current initiatives within these >priority areas and issues of relevance to blind and partially sighted >persons globally. > >A question and answer session will be included as part of the 60 minute >seminar moderated by Dawn Turco, Hadley's senior vice president. > >Space in this seminar is limited. Please only register if you know you are >available to attend so that others are not closed out. >To >register for this seminar, follow this link. > >Follow us on: > >facebook logo > >Facebook > >twitter logo > >Twitter > > > >About >Hadley >Enroll >Now >Donate >Online > >footer image: 'Lifelong Learning since 1920' The Hadley School > > > > > >This message was sent to Dandrews at visi.com from: > >The Hadley School for the Blind | 700 Elm St. | Winnetka, IL 60093 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 3 17:20:57 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 12:20:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jedi, I also identify with feminism, but I consider myself a part of a new wave of feminist, as it were; my term, no official definition! Smile. I just try to consider all people equals. It's not about asserting dominance over any particular group, or being just like a man; it's about being me, the best me, and not buying into preconceived ideas. I don't back down from my positions and arguments unless I find sense or logic in another's view point. Feminism, true feminism, which is about equality, is often misconstrued and viewed in a negative light. I tried to tailor my argument so as to not focus on feminism in and of itself, but to display how far from true equality this world really is. We've lulled ourselves into a false sense of equality in today's world. Yet everywhere we look, discrimination and prejudice remain staunch parts of life. I totter on the edge of controversy here, but we send military presences into other countries demanding, forcing them to accept a democratic way of life, but in our own country many of us are still struggling to be considered a part of the so-called democratic society here. Yes, I'm not so stupid to not realize in many instances people in other countries experience medieval-like ways of life and horrid governments that will kill to get what they want, but in terms of a democratic, equal life, no one has achieved this. How can Americans take on the role of big brother when we won't give certain rights and respect to groups living in America? Our perspective is skewed. I'm not necessarily claiming we intentionally dish out inproportionate amounts of equality, but because many don't have to deal with certain experiences or have much exposure to them, they fail to realize the truth. Unfortunately this ignorance has led too many to think we live as equals, and that opportunity is simply something you reach out for and grab it, as though opportunity is attainable equally. Ten percent of students learning Braille is certainly not a statistic allowing a minority to simply reach out and achieve anything. Anyway, I didn't mean to come across with a wishy-washy message; it's just that my focus was on showing that people with disabilities are not the only group still fighting to be viewed as capable equals. And I personally don't look at certain women differently just because they choose to take a path less traveled these days. Whether working or not, I don't think we should judge anyone who is pursuing something they love or being productive even if not in a conventional or traditional way. I believe in equality among genders, and I think women should be able to choose whatever path that makes them happy; meanwhile, my ultimate dream is to be a soccer mom! Smile. It's going to take time to convince people that disability isn't the end of the road. It helps when people with disabilities actually live up to the standards and ideas espoused by groups like the Federation, but the same comment can be said about any minority or under-served group. I think the best way to truly affect society is to live our lives and meet the same expectations placed on the rest of the world- to achieve averageness should be the goal all people with disabilities works towards. Smirky grin. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 8 Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:53:20 -0400 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minority groups Message-ID: ef9b1671-465f-4c4b-8cd7-511b7cd8d5c3 at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Bridgit, Never apologize for what you say here if it comes from your deepest experience. This is exactly the discussion we should be having. And really, there is nothing dirty about feminism. In fact, feminists have been saying the same thing for decades that you've just said here on list. So while you personally may not identify as feminist, you do share feminist beliefs. I identify as a feminist, and we're not all bra-burning crazies out to get men, we're just men and women who are as sick of sex oppression as you are. Respectfully, Jedi From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 3 18:54:56 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:54:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08A188DF64714EEA8A0EB63BD521C6F2@OwnerPC> Bridget, Well said. I agree there is discrimination and not enough equality. And other minorities are fighting for the same thing. However, I will do my part to participate in the democracy we have, even though it’s a flawed one. I'm voting next tuesday! Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 1:20 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities Jedi, I also identify with feminism, but I consider myself a part of a new wave of feminist, as it were; my term, no official definition! Smile. I just try to consider all people equals. It's not about asserting dominance over any particular group, or being just like a man; it's about being me, the best me, and not buying into preconceived ideas. I don't back down from my positions and arguments unless I find sense or logic in another's view point. Feminism, true feminism, which is about equality, is often misconstrued and viewed in a negative light. I tried to tailor my argument so as to not focus on feminism in and of itself, but to display how far from true equality this world really is. We've lulled ourselves into a false sense of equality in today's world. Yet everywhere we look, discrimination and prejudice remain staunch parts of life. I totter on the edge of controversy here, but we send military presences into other countries demanding, forcing them to accept a democratic way of life, but in our own country many of us are still struggling to be considered a part of the so-called democratic society here. Yes, I'm not so stupid to not realize in many instances people in other countries experience medieval-like ways of life and horrid governments that will kill to get what they want, but in terms of a democratic, equal life, no one has achieved this. How can Americans take on the role of big brother when we won't give certain rights and respect to groups living in America? Our perspective is skewed. I'm not necessarily claiming we intentionally dish out inproportionate amounts of equality, but because many don't have to deal with certain experiences or have much exposure to them, they fail to realize the truth. Unfortunately this ignorance has led too many to think we live as equals, and that opportunity is simply something you reach out for and grab it, as though opportunity is attainable equally. Ten percent of students learning Braille is certainly not a statistic allowing a minority to simply reach out and achieve anything. Anyway, I didn't mean to come across with a wishy-washy message; it's just that my focus was on showing that people with disabilities are not the only group still fighting to be viewed as capable equals. And I personally don't look at certain women differently just because they choose to take a path less traveled these days. Whether working or not, I don't think we should judge anyone who is pursuing something they love or being productive even if not in a conventional or traditional way. I believe in equality among genders, and I think women should be able to choose whatever path that makes them happy; meanwhile, my ultimate dream is to be a soccer mom! Smile. It's going to take time to convince people that disability isn't the end of the road. It helps when people with disabilities actually live up to the standards and ideas espoused by groups like the Federation, but the same comment can be said about any minority or under-served group. I think the best way to truly affect society is to live our lives and meet the same expectations placed on the rest of the world- to achieve averageness should be the goal all people with disabilities works towards. Smirky grin. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 8 Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:53:20 -0400 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minority groups Message-ID: ef9b1671-465f-4c4b-8cd7-511b7cd8d5c3 at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Bridgit, Never apologize for what you say here if it comes from your deepest experience. This is exactly the discussion we should be having. And really, there is nothing dirty about feminism. In fact, feminists have been saying the same thing for decades that you've just said here on list. So while you personally may not identify as feminist, you do share feminist beliefs. I identify as a feminist, and we're not all bra-burning crazies out to get men, we're just men and women who are as sick of sex oppression as you are. Respectfully, Jedi _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From hogle.sam at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 00:22:40 2011 From: hogle.sam at gmail.com (Sam Hogle) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:22:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches Message-ID: <4EB33050.5060403@gmail.com> Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. Sam From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 01:01:58 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:01:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches In-Reply-To: <4EB33050.5060403@gmail.com> References: <4EB33050.5060403@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sam, I have a Nano, slightly different from a Touch. VoiceOver is actually really easy to learn. Once you get used to the idea of a touch screen, it's fairly straightforward: Tap once to hear the name of something, tap twice to activate it. Hope this helps. Patrick On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: > Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most > likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who > have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm > guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was > wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came > to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. > Sam > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 01:11:08 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:11:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches In-Reply-To: References: <4EB33050.5060403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-7221258811306615153@unknownmsgid> Hey Sam, haven't actually followed this thread I admit, but this subject line interested me :) Another cool thing about the touch is the ability to pair a bluetooth keyboard up to it and use that to input commands and things if you are not comfortable with typing on a touch screen. I will admit that I was not comfortable with that at first, and am still really not. But I've gotten used to it, somewhat. I'm actually using the braillenote that i own to type into here now, :) which counts as a keyboard/braille display. Best, Josh Sent from my iPod Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com Skype: joshgregory93 On Nov 3, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Sam, > I have a Nano, slightly different from a Touch. VoiceOver is actually > really easy to learn. Once you get used to the idea of a touch screen, > it's fairly straightforward: Tap once to hear the name of something, > tap twice to activate it. Hope this helps. > Patrick > > On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: >> Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most >> likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who >> have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm >> guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was >> wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came >> to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. >> Sam >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 02:05:58 2011 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:05:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches Message-ID: <4eb34897.1371640a.363a.ffffe6a0@mx.google.com> I looooooooooove my iPod touch. I can't get enogh of it. The App store is easy to use and the tabs are right there, so I just type in what I want and it brings up the results. I like doing more with my iPod than just listen to music. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: josh gregory wrote: Sam, I have a Nano, slightly different from a Touch. VoiceOver is actually really easy to learn. Once you get used to the idea of a touch screen, it's fairly straightforward: Tap once to hear the name of something, tap twice to activate it. Hope this helps. Patrick On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. Sam _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo se%40gmail.com From hogle.sam at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 02:23:36 2011 From: hogle.sam at gmail.com (Sam Hogle) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:23:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches In-Reply-To: <4eb34897.1371640a.363a.ffffe6a0@mx.google.com> References: <4eb34897.1371640a.363a.ffffe6a0@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4EB34CA8.9030705@gmail.com> I agree when it comes to wanting more than just music. I already have a Victor Streem and a Milestone, so I'm fine in the music department. My main reason for wanting one is because I've heard that there are a lot of useful aps for it. Plus, the idea of having internet on something way smaller than a computer without having to pay a data plan like you do on a phone is pretty nice. On 11/3/2011 10:05 PM, Beth wrote: > I looooooooooove my iPod touch. I can't get enogh of it. The App > store is easy to use and the tabs are right there, so I just type in > what I want and it brings up the results. I like doing more with my > iPod than just listen to music. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: josh gregory To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:11:08 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] IPod touches > > Hey Sam, haven't actually followed this thread I admit, but this > subject line interested me :) > Another cool thing about the touch is the ability to pair a bluetooth > keyboard up to it and use that to input commands and things if you are > not comfortable with typing on a touch screen. I will admit that I was > not comfortable with that at first, and am still really not. But I've > gotten used to it, somewhat. I'm actually using the braillenote that i > own to type into here now, :) > which counts as a keyboard/braille display. > Best, > Josh > > Sent from my iPod > > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > Skype: joshgregory93 > > On Nov 3, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Patrick Molloy > wrote: > > Sam, > I have a Nano, slightly different from a Touch. VoiceOver is actually > really easy to learn. Once you get used to the idea of a touch screen, > it's fairly straightforward: Tap once to hear the name of something, > tap twice to activate it. Hope this helps. > Patrick > > On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: > Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most > likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who > have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm > guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was > wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came > to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. > Sam > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 > gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 02:27:13 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 22:27:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches In-Reply-To: <4EB34CA8.9030705@gmail.com> References: <4eb34897.1371640a.363a.ffffe6a0@mx.google.com> <4EB34CA8.9030705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-8845732429460412953@unknownmsgid> Gotta agree Beth! Especially with i o s 5, awesome! Sent from my iPod Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com Skype: joshgregory93 On Nov 3, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Sam Hogle wrote: > I agree when it comes to wanting more than just music. I already have a Victor Streem and a Milestone, so I'm fine in the music department. My main reason for wanting one is because I've heard that there are a lot of useful aps for it. Plus, the idea of having internet on something way smaller than a computer without having to pay a data plan like you do on a phone is pretty nice. > On 11/3/2011 10:05 PM, Beth wrote: >> I looooooooooove my iPod touch. I can't get enogh of it. The App store is easy to use and the tabs are right there, so I just type in what I want and it brings up the results. I like doing more with my iPod than just listen to music. >> Beth >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: josh gregory > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:11:08 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] IPod touches >> >> Hey Sam, haven't actually followed this thread I admit, but this >> subject line interested me :) >> Another cool thing about the touch is the ability to pair a bluetooth >> keyboard up to it and use that to input commands and things if you are >> not comfortable with typing on a touch screen. I will admit that I was >> not comfortable with that at first, and am still really not. But I've >> gotten used to it, somewhat. I'm actually using the braillenote that i >> own to type into here now, :) >> which counts as a keyboard/braille display. >> Best, >> Josh >> >> Sent from my iPod >> >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> Skype: joshgregory93 >> >> On Nov 3, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> >> Sam, >> I have a Nano, slightly different from a Touch. VoiceOver is actually >> really easy to learn. Once you get used to the idea of a touch screen, >> it's fairly straightforward: Tap once to hear the name of something, >> tap twice to activate it. Hope this helps. >> Patrick >> >> On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: >> Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most >> likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who >> have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm >> guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was >> wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came >> to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. >> Sam >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 >> gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >> se%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From nimerjaber1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 02:33:27 2011 From: nimerjaber1 at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nimer_M=2E_Jaber=2C_IC=B3?=) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:33:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches In-Reply-To: <-8845732429460412953@unknownmsgid> References: <4eb34897.1371640a.363a.ffffe6a0@mx.google.com> <4EB34CA8.9030705@gmail.com> <-8845732429460412953@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Go Android!! Oh, sorry. I'll refrain now. Anyway, I teach the iTouch and it is pretty easy to learn and use. I'm' not so keen on IOS5 at the moment though ... Thanks. On 03.11.2011, josh gregory wrote: > Gotta agree Beth! Especially with i o s 5, awesome! > > Sent from my iPod > > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > Skype: joshgregory93 > > On Nov 3, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Sam Hogle wrote: > >> I agree when it comes to wanting more than just music. I already have a >> Victor Streem and a Milestone, so I'm fine in the music department. My >> main reason for wanting one is because I've heard that there are a lot of >> useful aps for it. Plus, the idea of having internet on something way >> smaller than a computer without having to pay a data plan like you do on a >> phone is pretty nice. >> On 11/3/2011 10:05 PM, Beth wrote: >>> I looooooooooove my iPod touch. I can't get enogh of it. The App store >>> is easy to use and the tabs are right there, so I just type in what I >>> want and it brings up the results. I like doing more with my iPod than >>> just listen to music. >>> Beth >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: josh gregory >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:11:08 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] IPod touches >>> >>> Hey Sam, haven't actually followed this thread I admit, but this >>> subject line interested me :) >>> Another cool thing about the touch is the ability to pair a bluetooth >>> keyboard up to it and use that to input commands and things if you are >>> not comfortable with typing on a touch screen. I will admit that I was >>> not comfortable with that at first, and am still really not. But I've >>> gotten used to it, somewhat. I'm actually using the braillenote that i >>> own to type into here now, :) >>> which counts as a keyboard/braille display. >>> Best, >>> Josh >>> >>> Sent from my iPod >>> >>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>> >>> On Nov 3, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Patrick Molloy >>> wrote: >>> >>> Sam, >>> I have a Nano, slightly different from a Touch. VoiceOver is actually >>> really easy to learn. Once you get used to the idea of a touch screen, >>> it's fairly straightforward: Tap once to hear the name of something, >>> tap twice to activate it. Hope this helps. >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: >>> Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most >>> likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who >>> have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm >>> guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was >>> wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came >>> to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. >>> Sam >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 >>> gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>> se%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > -- Nimer M. Jaber The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email from your computer. Registered Linux User 529141. http://counter.li.org/ Vinux testing and documentation coordinator To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: http://nimertech.blogspot.com Phone: (720) (251-4530) Please reply to this email to contact me. From joshkart12 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 02:48:58 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 22:48:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches In-Reply-To: References: <4eb34897.1371640a.363a.ffffe6a0@mx.google.com> <4EB34CA8.9030705@gmail.com> <-8845732429460412953@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <-3663472843961777666@unknownmsgid> hello. if i may ask, why are you so keen on android, and why do you not like i o s 5 that much? personally, i love it, but that's just me. Sent from my iPod Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com Skype: joshgregory93 On Nov 3, 2011, at 10:34 PM, "Nimer M. Jaber, IC³" wrote: > Go Android!! Oh, sorry. I'll refrain now. Anyway, I teach the iTouch > and it is pretty easy to learn and use. I'm' not so keen on IOS5 at > the moment though ... > > Thanks. > > On 03.11.2011, josh gregory wrote: >> Gotta agree Beth! Especially with i o s 5, awesome! >> >> Sent from my iPod >> >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> Skype: joshgregory93 >> >> On Nov 3, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Sam Hogle wrote: >> >>> I agree when it comes to wanting more than just music. I already have a >>> Victor Streem and a Milestone, so I'm fine in the music department. My >>> main reason for wanting one is because I've heard that there are a lot of >>> useful aps for it. Plus, the idea of having internet on something way >>> smaller than a computer without having to pay a data plan like you do on a >>> phone is pretty nice. >>> On 11/3/2011 10:05 PM, Beth wrote: >>>> I looooooooooove my iPod touch. I can't get enogh of it. The App store >>>> is easy to use and the tabs are right there, so I just type in what I >>>> want and it brings up the results. I like doing more with my iPod than >>>> just listen to music. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: josh gregory >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:11:08 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] IPod touches >>>> >>>> Hey Sam, haven't actually followed this thread I admit, but this >>>> subject line interested me :) >>>> Another cool thing about the touch is the ability to pair a bluetooth >>>> keyboard up to it and use that to input commands and things if you are >>>> not comfortable with typing on a touch screen. I will admit that I was >>>> not comfortable with that at first, and am still really not. But I've >>>> gotten used to it, somewhat. I'm actually using the braillenote that i >>>> own to type into here now, :) >>>> which counts as a keyboard/braille display. >>>> Best, >>>> Josh >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPod >>>> >>>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>> >>>> On Nov 3, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Patrick Molloy >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sam, >>>> I have a Nano, slightly different from a Touch. VoiceOver is actually >>>> really easy to learn. Once you get used to the idea of a touch screen, >>>> it's fairly straightforward: Tap once to hear the name of something, >>>> tap twice to activate it. Hope this helps. >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: >>>> Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most >>>> likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who >>>> have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm >>>> guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was >>>> wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came >>>> to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 >>>> gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>> se%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Nimer M. Jaber > > The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. > If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify > me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken > as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient > may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my > machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible > for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions > or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. > Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these > instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies > of this email from your computer. > > Registered Linux User 529141. > http://counter.li.org/ > Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, > please click here: > http://www.vinuxproject.org > > To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP > and above, please click here: > http://www.nvda-project.org > > Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > http://nimertech.blogspot.com > > Phone: (720) (251-4530) > Please reply to this email to contact me. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com, From hogle.sam at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 02:51:01 2011 From: hogle.sam at gmail.com (Sam Hogle) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:51:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches In-Reply-To: References: <4eb34897.1371640a.363a.ffffe6a0@mx.google.com> <4EB34CA8.9030705@gmail.com> <-8845732429460412953@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EB35315.40106@gmail.com> Nimer, I didn't know you were on here. Anyway since that's the case, get ready to teach me. lol On 11/3/2011 10:33 PM, Nimer M. Jaber, IC³ wrote: > Go Android!! Oh, sorry. I'll refrain now. Anyway, I teach the iTouch > and it is pretty easy to learn and use. I'm' not so keen on IOS5 at > the moment though ... > > Thanks. > > On 03.11.2011, josh gregory wrote: >> Gotta agree Beth! Especially with i o s 5, awesome! >> >> Sent from my iPod >> >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> Skype: joshgregory93 >> >> On Nov 3, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Sam Hogle wrote: >> >>> I agree when it comes to wanting more than just music. I already have a >>> Victor Streem and a Milestone, so I'm fine in the music department. My >>> main reason for wanting one is because I've heard that there are a lot of >>> useful aps for it. Plus, the idea of having internet on something way >>> smaller than a computer without having to pay a data plan like you do on a >>> phone is pretty nice. >>> On 11/3/2011 10:05 PM, Beth wrote: >>>> I looooooooooove my iPod touch. I can't get enogh of it. The App store >>>> is easy to use and the tabs are right there, so I just type in what I >>>> want and it brings up the results. I like doing more with my iPod than >>>> just listen to music. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: josh gregory>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:11:08 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] IPod touches >>>> >>>> Hey Sam, haven't actually followed this thread I admit, but this >>>> subject line interested me :) >>>> Another cool thing about the touch is the ability to pair a bluetooth >>>> keyboard up to it and use that to input commands and things if you are >>>> not comfortable with typing on a touch screen. I will admit that I was >>>> not comfortable with that at first, and am still really not. But I've >>>> gotten used to it, somewhat. I'm actually using the braillenote that i >>>> own to type into here now, :) >>>> which counts as a keyboard/braille display. >>>> Best, >>>> Josh >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPod >>>> >>>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>> >>>> On Nov 3, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Patrick Molloy >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sam, >>>> I have a Nano, slightly different from a Touch. VoiceOver is actually >>>> really easy to learn. Once you get used to the idea of a touch screen, >>>> it's fairly straightforward: Tap once to hear the name of something, >>>> tap twice to activate it. Hope this helps. >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: >>>> Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most >>>> likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who >>>> have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm >>>> guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was >>>> wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came >>>> to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 >>>> gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>> se%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >> > From hogle.sam at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 02:52:15 2011 From: hogle.sam at gmail.com (Sam Hogle) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:52:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches In-Reply-To: <-3663472843961777666@unknownmsgid> References: <4eb34897.1371640a.363a.ffffe6a0@mx.google.com> <4EB34CA8.9030705@gmail.com> <-8845732429460412953@unknownmsgid> <-3663472843961777666@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EB3535F.7020201@gmail.com> I was wondering the same thing. From what I've heard, they're not as accessable as Apple, so I don't get what makes them appealing. On 11/3/2011 10:48 PM, josh gregory wrote: > hello. if i may ask, why are you so keen on android, and why do you > not like i o s 5 that much? personally, i love it, but that's just me. > > Sent from my iPod > > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > Skype: joshgregory93 > > On Nov 3, 2011, at 10:34 PM, "Nimer M. Jaber, IC³" > wrote: > >> Go Android!! Oh, sorry. I'll refrain now. Anyway, I teach the iTouch >> and it is pretty easy to learn and use. I'm' not so keen on IOS5 at >> the moment though ... >> >> Thanks. >> >> On 03.11.2011, josh gregory wrote: >>> Gotta agree Beth! Especially with i o s 5, awesome! >>> >>> Sent from my iPod >>> >>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>> >>> On Nov 3, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Sam Hogle wrote: >>> >>>> I agree when it comes to wanting more than just music. I already have a >>>> Victor Streem and a Milestone, so I'm fine in the music department. My >>>> main reason for wanting one is because I've heard that there are a lot of >>>> useful aps for it. Plus, the idea of having internet on something way >>>> smaller than a computer without having to pay a data plan like you do on a >>>> phone is pretty nice. >>>> On 11/3/2011 10:05 PM, Beth wrote: >>>>> I looooooooooove my iPod touch. I can't get enogh of it. The App store >>>>> is easy to use and the tabs are right there, so I just type in what I >>>>> want and it brings up the results. I like doing more with my iPod than >>>>> just listen to music. >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: josh gregory>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:11:08 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] IPod touches >>>>> >>>>> Hey Sam, haven't actually followed this thread I admit, but this >>>>> subject line interested me :) >>>>> Another cool thing about the touch is the ability to pair a bluetooth >>>>> keyboard up to it and use that to input commands and things if you are >>>>> not comfortable with typing on a touch screen. I will admit that I was >>>>> not comfortable with that at first, and am still really not. But I've >>>>> gotten used to it, somewhat. I'm actually using the braillenote that i >>>>> own to type into here now, :) >>>>> which counts as a keyboard/braille display. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Josh >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPod >>>>> >>>>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 3, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Patrick Molloy >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sam, >>>>> I have a Nano, slightly different from a Touch. VoiceOver is actually >>>>> really easy to learn. Once you get used to the idea of a touch screen, >>>>> it's fairly straightforward: Tap once to hear the name of something, >>>>> tap twice to activate it. Hope this helps. >>>>> Patrick >>>>> >>>>> On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: >>>>> Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most >>>>> likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who >>>>> have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm >>>>> guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was >>>>> wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came >>>>> to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. >>>>> Sam >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 >>>>> gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>>> se%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>> >> >> -- >> Nimer M. Jaber >> >> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify >> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken >> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient >> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my >> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible >> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions >> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. >> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these >> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies >> of this email from your computer. >> >> Registered Linux User 529141. >> http://counter.li.org/ >> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >> To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, >> please click here: >> http://www.vinuxproject.org >> >> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >> and above, please click here: >> http://www.nvda-project.org >> >> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >> >> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >> Please reply to this email to contact me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com, > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com > From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Fri Nov 4 04:52:08 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:52:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Message-ID: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> Excuse me if this is off topic. If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? Nicole From hogle.sam at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 04:57:47 2011 From: hogle.sam at gmail.com (Sam Hogle) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 00:57:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> References: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <4EB370CB.6000900@gmail.com> Yes, I think using the mobile sight is a good alternative. It's totally accessable, and in fact, I know some sighted people who use it because even though they don't have accessability issues, they still find it to be way less complicated. Also, whenever facebook changes, the mobile sight is not usually affected. So, it's basically perfect. Sam On 11/4/2011 12:52 AM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Excuse me if this is off topic. > If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? > On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 08:15:09 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 01:15:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <4eb37506.e76e340a.738a.7d8c@mx.google.com> I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular site as a jaws user. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Excuse me if this is off topic. If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From dandrews at visi.com Fri Nov 4 10:54:59 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 05:54:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arielle: I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! Dave At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: >Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >people to think about. >Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >against other minority groups. >Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >here? >I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >members of the public to see this? >Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >I look forward to the discussion. >Best, >Arielle From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 11:58:07 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 04:58:07 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Brown, Goldstein & Levy 2011 Disability Rights Fellowship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Attention law students and recent law school graduates: Please read the below announcement about a great opportunity offered by Brown, Goldstein and Levy for those interested in practicing disability law. Thanks, Darian In September 2009, Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP welcomed its first Disability Rights Fellow. We are now accepting applications for our fourth annual Disability Rights Fellowship to begin in September 2012. The Fellowship offers a recent law school graduate or judicial clerk with a disability the opportunity to participate for a year in all phases of disability rights litigation at our firm in Baltimore, Maryland. Brown, Goldstein & Levy is a 16-lawyer law firm devoted principally to litigation. The firm has developed a national reputation for its high-profile, high-impact disability rights cases. The one-year fellowship will begin in September 2012. The application deadline is November 15, 2011. Please visit our website for additional details about the Fellowship and the firm and to download an application: www.browngold.com. I have attached accessible pdf and Word versions of the application requirements. Please feel free to pass this information along to individuals who you believe would be interested in a great opportunity to both gain experience and put their knowledge and drive to salutary use. And don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions. Many thanks, Greg Gregory P. Care Brown, Goldstein & Levy, LLP 120 E. Baltimore Street Suite 1700 Baltimore, Maryland 21202 Phone: 410-962-1030 ext. 1316 Fax: 410-385-0869 gpc at browngold.com www.browngold.com Please consider the environment before printing this email Confidentiality Notice This e-mail may contain confidential information that may also be legally privileged and that is intended only for the use of the Addressee(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the recipient, please be advised that any dissemination or copying of this e-mail, or taking of any action in reliance on the information contained herein, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify me immediately by use of the reply button, and then delete the e-mail from your system. Thank you! -- Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: (608) 332-4147 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 12:29:22 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 05:29:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] From The National Association of Blind Students Regarding the Rehabilitation confrence call Message-ID: Greetings All, Due to some unforeseen circumstances, the rehabilitation call presented by the nabs membership committee has been rescheduled. Plans are underway to reschedule this call for a date later on in the month. As soon as a new date is confirmed we will let all of you know when it will be. Meanwhile, all of you are welcome to submit general questions to nabs via nabs.membership at gmail.com or message us on twitter @nabslink. All submissions need to be in no later than November 9th to be considered as a part of the list of questions our moderator uses. Thank you for your patience and we look forward to catching you in the next couple of weeks on the rescheduled voc rehab call! Best, The National Association of Blind Students Membership Committee. -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From isaiah5719 at mchsi.com Fri Nov 4 13:32:10 2011 From: isaiah5719 at mchsi.com (Loren Wakefield) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 08:32:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <4eb37506.e76e340a.738a.7d8c@mx.google.com> References: <4eb37506.e76e340a.738a.7d8c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <37B7E34A3CC74017B2770E49E36210A1@LorenPC> I I do not think it is an acceptable alternative. I use the mobile site. But it vcannot do many things that one could do on the regular site. -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 3:15 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular site as a jaws user. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Excuse me if this is off topic. If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com From isaiah5719 at mchsi.com Fri Nov 4 13:34:19 2011 From: isaiah5719 at mchsi.com (Loren Wakefield) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 08:34:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> References: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <2F0A4E4E6DDB490BA5229DB31EF5871D@LorenPC> TheThe regular site changes, and so does the mobile site. And with each change, it too becomes less accessable. -----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 11:52 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Excuse me if this is off topic. If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 13:42:05 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:42:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches In-Reply-To: <4EB3535F.7020201@gmail.com> References: <4eb34897.1371640a.363a.ffffe6a0@mx.google.com> <4EB34CA8.9030705@gmail.com> <-8845732429460412953@unknownmsgid> <-3663472843961777666@unknownmsgid> <4EB3535F.7020201@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey that's what I was thinking and was going to say, but decided against it. On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: > I was wondering the same thing. From what I've heard, they're not as > accessable as Apple, so I don't get what makes them appealing. > On 11/3/2011 10:48 PM, josh gregory wrote: >> hello. if i may ask, why are you so keen on android, and why do you >> not like i o s 5 that much? personally, i love it, but that's just me. >> >> Sent from my iPod >> >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> Skype: joshgregory93 >> >> On Nov 3, 2011, at 10:34 PM, "Nimer M. Jaber, ICł" >> wrote: >> >>> Go Android!! Oh, sorry. I'll refrain now. Anyway, I teach the iTouch >>> and it is pretty easy to learn and use. I'm' not so keen on IOS5 at >>> the moment though ... >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On 03.11.2011, josh gregory wrote: >>>> Gotta agree Beth! Especially with i o s 5, awesome! >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPod >>>> >>>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>> >>>> On Nov 3, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Sam Hogle wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree when it comes to wanting more than just music. I already have a >>>>> Victor Streem and a Milestone, so I'm fine in the music department. My >>>>> main reason for wanting one is because I've heard that there are a lot >>>>> of >>>>> useful aps for it. Plus, the idea of having internet on something way >>>>> smaller than a computer without having to pay a data plan like you do >>>>> on a >>>>> phone is pretty nice. >>>>> On 11/3/2011 10:05 PM, Beth wrote: >>>>>> I looooooooooove my iPod touch. I can't get enogh of it. The App >>>>>> store >>>>>> is easy to use and the tabs are right there, so I just type in what I >>>>>> want and it brings up the results. I like doing more with my iPod >>>>>> than >>>>>> just listen to music. >>>>>> Beth >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: josh gregory>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:11:08 -0400 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] IPod touches >>>>>> >>>>>> Hey Sam, haven't actually followed this thread I admit, but this >>>>>> subject line interested me :) >>>>>> Another cool thing about the touch is the ability to pair a bluetooth >>>>>> keyboard up to it and use that to input commands and things if you are >>>>>> not comfortable with typing on a touch screen. I will admit that I was >>>>>> not comfortable with that at first, and am still really not. But I've >>>>>> gotten used to it, somewhat. I'm actually using the braillenote that i >>>>>> own to type into here now, :) >>>>>> which counts as a keyboard/braille display. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Josh >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPod >>>>>> >>>>>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 3, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Patrick Molloy >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Sam, >>>>>> I have a Nano, slightly different from a Touch. VoiceOver is actually >>>>>> really easy to learn. Once you get used to the idea of a touch screen, >>>>>> it's fairly straightforward: Tap once to hear the name of something, >>>>>> tap twice to activate it. Hope this helps. >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/3/11, Sam Hogle wrote: >>>>>> Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm >>>>>> most >>>>>> likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who >>>>>> have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm >>>>>> guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was >>>>>> wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it >>>>>> came >>>>>> to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. >>>>>> Sam >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 >>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>>>> se%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nimer M. Jaber >>> >>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify >>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken >>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient >>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my >>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible >>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions >>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. >>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these >>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies >>> of this email from your computer. >>> >>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>> http://counter.li.org/ >>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, >>> please click here: >>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>> >>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >>> and above, please click here: >>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>> >>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>> >>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com, >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Sent via gmail.com Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com Skype: joshgregory93 From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 16:42:59 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:42:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <37B7E34A3CC74017B2770E49E36210A1@LorenPC> Message-ID: <4eb3ec0c.3442340a.67d7.ffffaef4@mx.google.com> Yes that's true but the moble site is much easyer to get around with a screen reader. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren Wakefield Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 6:32 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) I I do not think it is an acceptable alternative. I use the mobile site. But it vcannot do many things that one could do on the regular site. -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 3:15 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular site as a jaws user. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Excuse me if this is off topic. If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From hogle.sam at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 13:56:45 2011 From: hogle.sam at gmail.com (Sam Hogle) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:56:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <2F0A4E4E6DDB490BA5229DB31EF5871D@LorenPC> References: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> <2F0A4E4E6DDB490BA5229DB31EF5871D@LorenPC> Message-ID: <4EB3EF1D.4070401@gmail.com> I disagree. There are a lot of tbhhings I can do on the mobile sight that I could not do back when I first made my account. On 11/4/2011 9:34 AM, Loren Wakefield wrote: > TheThe regular site changes, and so does the mobile site. And with > each change, it too becomes less accessable. > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 11:52 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) > > Excuse me if this is off topic. > If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook > page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off > list? > On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an > acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com > From isaiah5719 at mchsi.com Fri Nov 4 14:36:25 2011 From: isaiah5719 at mchsi.com (Loren Wakefield) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:36:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <4EB3EF1D.4070401@gmail.com> References: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu><2F0A4E4E6DDB490BA5229DB31EF5871D@LorenPC> <4EB3EF1D.4070401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B0B4D4202C4997A52250579A31122E@LorenPC> I I in no way said it was not easier to use. I just said it too has its drawbacdks, and is not as usable as it was. Also, one cannot access everything on the mobile site that one can on the regular one. I'm glad the mobile is there, I just do not find it anywhere near what it use to be. -----Original Message----- From: Sam Hogle Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 8:56 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) I disagree. There are a lot of tbhhings I can do on the mobile sight that I could not do back when I first made my account. On 11/4/2011 9:34 AM, Loren Wakefield wrote: > TheThe regular site changes, and so does the mobile site. And with each > change, it too becomes less accessable. > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 11:52 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) > > Excuse me if this is off topic. > If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page > with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? > On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an > acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Fri Nov 4 15:20:38 2011 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 08:20:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <4eb37506.e76e340a.738a.7d8c@mx.google.com> References: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> <4eb37506.e76e340a.738a.7d8c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000301cc9b05$4f6d32c0$ee479840$@suddenlink.net> I definitely agree with Rania. I'm sure there are more options and such on the regular facebook site, but I find the mobile one very accessible :) -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular site as a jaws user. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Excuse me if this is off topic. If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40suddenl ink.net From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 15:47:35 2011 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:47:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <000301cc9b05$4f6d32c0$ee479840$@suddenlink.net> References: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> <4eb37506.e76e340a.738a.7d8c@mx.google.com> <000301cc9b05$4f6d32c0$ee479840$@suddenlink.net> Message-ID: The mobile site simply does not have the same functionality as the regular site. This is not a problem if you are a light user, but anyone needing to use more advanced functions on the site will have to use the regular version. That said, I really don't find the regular version all that inaccessible and don't understand the complaints about Facebook. While I don't use Facebook much as an individual, I manage and update the page for the organization I work with. I can post updates, link to other organizations and pages much like twitter within statuses, manage photos, and do just about everything else I'm required to complete. What problems are you all experiencing? Brice On 11/4/11, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > I definitely agree with Rania. I'm sure there are more options and such on > the regular facebook site, but I find the mobile one very accessible :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Rania Ismail CMT > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) > > I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular > site as a jaws user. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) > > Excuse me if this is off topic. > If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page > with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? > On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable > alternative to having an accessible site? > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40suddenl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Fri Nov 4 16:04:36 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:04:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [rehab] Focus group on Research Message-ID: FYI. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: rehab-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:rehab-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Edward Bell Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 7:44 AM To: NOMC mailing list; Rehab Mailing list; nclb at lists.nbpcb.org Subject: [rehab] Focus group on Research I am writing to ask you to distribute this announcement widely to people with disabilities and your staff with disabilities regarding an opportunity to participate in a focus group organized by Virginia Commonwealth University's NIDDR funded research and training center. The center is looking for a wide range of people with disabilities who might be interested in using research or evidence based practices in either their work helping others find jobs or their own job search. The focus groups are open to anyone with a disability who can participate in a focus group by telephone, including those with accommodations that enable their participation such as using instant messaging or someone who can read typed answers on the phone. Given the subject area, self-advocates, people with disabilities with an interest in research, and staff with disabilities working with other people with disabilities might be the best group to participate. The focus groups will be conducted by conference call on one of the dates listed below. Participants will receive a $25 gift card for their participation. VCU would like to hold the focus group before Thanksgiving, so please distribute this as soon as possible and ask people to reply right away. I will be organizing the focus group on behalf of the center. Please ask interested participants to reply to me at jschneid at gwu.edu with requested information if they are interested. FOCUS GROUP ANNOUNCEMENT I am writing to offer you the opportunity to participate in an important research project. Please share your experience and ideas with researchers interested in helping people with disabilities searching for employment. Participation is easy - you simply call into a conference call from you home or office. SEDL, a nonprofit research company, has established the Center on Knowledge Translation for Employment Research (KTER) in partnership with Virginia Commonwealth University. The Center is funded by the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research (NIDRR) in the U.S. Department of Education. The project will synthesize and disseminate existing high-quality research on improving employment outcomes for people with disabilities; conduct original research to identify and test strategies that encourage the use of such research among businesses/employers, policymakers, vocational rehabilitation agency staff, and people with disabilities; and train researchers in using the most effective knowledge translation strategies. The link to the KTER Center website is as follows: http://www.kter.org/ VCU is conducting focus groups targeting individuals with disabilities. The center is looking for people with disabilities who would like to participate in an hour to two hour phone call to share their thoughts and experience about using research in either their work or their job search. The focus groups will be conducted by conference call, so participants do not need to travel anywhere to participate. Participants do need to be able to talk on the phone or have available an accommodation that enables their participation. For instance a way to send instant messages to the VCU office or someone who can communicate questions to the participant and relay their answers to the group. Participants will receive a $25 gift card for participating. All participants are offered a VISA gift card. You will be asked for your mailing address when you submit your consent to participate online. The purpose of the study is to learn about what promotes or prevents people from using research when making employment decisions. The information that is learned in the focus groups will guide how the KTER Center provides information on employment to individuals with disabilities. This will include issues related to disability and work, how to address these issues to increase employment for individuals with disabilities. All personal data collected from participants is confidential and NO individuals will be identified in published reports. HOW TO PARTICIPATE: If you are interested in participating, please respond to Jo Anne Schneider at jschneid at gwu.edu with the following information: 1. Name: 2. contact info: a. email: b. phone: 3. Type(s) of disability (please mark all that apply): a. Physical ___ b. Auditory ___ c. Visual ___ d. Intellectual or developmental ___ e. Mental health ____ 4. Do you need an accommodation in order to participate in a focus group on the phone? a. No ___ b. Yes ___ i. If yes, please describe the accommodation you need and if you have someone who can participate with you and provide that accommodation: 5. Dates and times you would be available for the focus group (please check all you can do): a. Tuesday, November 15th, 11 AM ___ b. Tuesday, November 15th, 2 PM ___ c. Thursday, November 17th, 10 AM ___ d. Thursday, November 17th, 3 PM ___ e. Friday, November 18th, 11 AM ___ f. Friday, November 18th, 2 PM ___ g. Monday, November 21st, 11 AM ___ h. Monday, November 21st, 2 PM ___ i. Tuesday, November 22nd, 10 AM ___ j. Tuesday, November 22nd, 11 AM ___ k. Tuesday, November 22nd, 2 PM ___ Thank you for offering to participate in this important project. Jo Anne Schneider Associate Research Professor, George Washington University Disability Self-Advocate Member, Baltimore County Commission on Disabilities This is a project sponsored by SEDL and Virginia Commonwealth University and is in no way affiliated with George Washington University or the Baltimore County Commission on Disabilities Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) Exam http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php Get your T-Shirt to promote Independence for the Blind http://www.gemini-rt.com/?page_id=37 Director, Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University 210 Woodard Hall PO Box 3158 Ruston LA 71272 Office: 318.257.4554 Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) Skype: edwardbell2010 ebell at latech.edu www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness ******************** "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould _______________________________________________ rehab mailing list rehab at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for rehab: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmail.com From carlymih at earthlink.net Fri Nov 4 16:48:14 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:48:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] blindness Vs other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111104093932.01d20958@earthlink.net> Good morning, Joshua, Of course, maybe that goes without saying. Yet, one ought to be careful not to ignore a person's unique, texture which makes them unique? Remember this, How much fun would it ever be, if we were, locked within a repeteitive, homogeny? Please don't read this as my being wrapped up in that " "cult of the individual crap because that is not what I mean. I am simply trying to describe my dispising homogeny particularly amungst people. 2011, Joshua Lester wrote: >Alexander: >I didn't say that. >That was Loren Wakefield's point, that I also take issue with. >What I was saying is that it is wrong to poke fun at anyone, based on >what they are, be they disabled, or a diferent religion. >We should always be careful what we say. >Blessings, Joshua > >On 11/2/11, Alexander Castillo wrote: > > Hello all, first, I would like to identify myself as someone who is > > coming from the perspective of two minority > > > > groups. I am blind, and I am also from the Dominican Republic. > > > > Let's start off with the statement that Joshua made about Christianity > > being an acceptible religion to poke fun at. > > > > This example misses the point, as christians in this country are a > > majority, not a minority. I'm not saying that > > > > one should be able to make fun of Christianity because of this, I am > > saying that it does not fit into the topic. > > > > However, if we lived in a mostly non-christian nation, and christians > > were a minority, then the comparison would be > > > > right on the money. > > > > The issue is whether or not blindness differs from other minority > > groups. And, I do not think that it does. If you > > > > take a look at people who have been historicly oppressed, look at the > > symptoms which have come from that > > > > oppression, the stereotypes and discrimination, we could probably draw > > the conclusion that indeed, blindness is and > > > > should be considered a disadvantaged minority group. > > > > Once while walking home from a night of bowling I was told by a woman > > that "I was walking very well for someone > > > > blind." she then continued to say that I was almost walking faster > > than she was. She meant this as a compliment. > > > > While chopping vegetables,I heard a man say "Wow, he's chopping up > > that pepper like he's not even blind.." > > > > > > One of my brother's friends once told him that he did not understand > > how I always "stayed fresh" meaning that I was > > > > always well dressed and looking sharp. > > > > I understand what this means. Blind people are understood to lack the > > skills which sighted people inherently > > > > possess, and therefore, as a blind person, I was doing so well that > > the sighted person was impressed. > > > > Now, I will say that even though hispanics/latinos in this country > > have a high school drop out rate, that in the > > > > workforce we still hold mostly blue collar jobs, that many of us pay > > taxes at a lower income braquet, and yes, we > > > > as a whole in this country are considered for a very good part > > disadvantaged," No one would dare tell me that I was > > > > doing so well for myself even though I was Hispanic. > > > > Disability, is very slowly beginning to be looked at as a minority > > group in the same way as ethnicity, gender, > > > > religion... The change is taking place because for once, the > > disability community, and in our particular case the > > > > blind community, is being led by our own people. But this is a very > > slow process, and I would say that most of the > > > > general population does not understand the change, or why even why > > they have such a rigid view on disability. > > > > Disability, and blindness in particular, are considered weaknesses, > > flaws, things which make the typical human being > > > > incomplete. It is rarely seen among the "able-bodied" as a simple > > characteristic. If we consider this perspective, > > > > the "able-bodied" or sighted person is indeed giving a compliment. > > They are saying: I recognize your flaw, and I > > > > recognize how you have overcome it. > > > > Indeed, we do deserve the same considerations as other minorities,we > > have had a history of opression, a history of > > > > activism against such oppression, but what we lack is that point in > > history in which we had not been oppressed. > > > > We cannot point to a map and say, once upon a time, our people were > > free in this place, or once upon a time, > > > > societyconsidered us equal. The blind, for the most part have remained > > mysterious, and strange to the able-bodied,to > > > > the sighted, to the typical human. > > > > > > We are even mysterious and srange to ourselves, often wondering why > > some blind people do this, or why some blind > > > > people do that. > > > > Every day however, I come across more and more blind people who are > > ready for employment, who are confident, who do > > > > not have and will not suffer the same stereotyping and discrimination > > that many of us have and will face. These > > > > people willl be the new representation of the blind. They will be seen > > as active and intergrated members of society. > > > > and the more that we strive to pull ourselves and others out of > > conditions of being a minority group, the more > > > > force our new perspective on disability and in our case blindness will > > be absorbed into the fabric of society. > > > > This was a long post, so thanks for reading, > > Alex > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From hogle.sam at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 16:59:31 2011 From: hogle.sam at gmail.com (Sam Hogle) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:59:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: References: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> <4eb37506.e76e340a.738a.7d8c@mx.google.com> <000301cc9b05$4f6d32c0$ee479840$@suddenlink.net> Message-ID: <4EB419F3.5040505@gmail.com> I agree that it can be used. However, my issues with it have been that it doesn't allways want to cooperate with Jaws when it comes to me trying to post stuff since what I'm posting comes up way than slower than my typing speed, I can't easily view my news feed, and there is just too much crap on the page in general. That last complaint may not be as valid since I'm what you might call a light user. I update my stattus and profile on a regular basis, but I'm not interested in any of the games, which I hear are not at all accessable. So, the mobile sight has allways been way better for me. But, we're all different, so what works for some won't work for all. On 11/4/2011 11:47 AM, Brice Smith wrote: > The mobile site simply does not have the same functionality as the > regular site. This is not a problem if you are a light user, but > anyone needing to use more advanced functions on the site will have to > use the regular version. > > That said, I really don't find the regular version all that > inaccessible and don't understand the complaints about Facebook. While > I don't use Facebook much as an individual, I manage and update the > page for the organization I work with. I can post updates, link to > other organizations and pages much like twitter within statuses, > manage photos, and do just about everything else I'm required to > complete. What problems are you all experiencing? > > Brice > > On 11/4/11, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >> I definitely agree with Rania. I'm sure there are more options and such on >> the regular facebook site, but I find the mobile one very accessible :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Rania Ismail CMT >> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 AM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) >> >> I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular >> site as a jaws user. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM >> To: NABS-L >> Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) >> >> Excuse me if this is off topic. >> If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page >> with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? >> On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable >> alternative to having an accessible site? >> >> Nicole >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co >> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40suddenl >> ink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 4 18:56:12 2011 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Hai Nguyen Ly) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:56:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] =?windows-1252?q?Why_Science_Majors_Change_Their_Minds_?= =?windows-1252?q?=28It=92s_Just_So_Darn_Hard=29_-_NYTimes=2Ecom?= Message-ID: <7B07BE2F-3B1D-4EFD-AC55-BB27D8DB6F1F@sbcglobal.net> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-majors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard) LAST FALL, President Obama threw what was billed as the first White House Science Fair, a photo op in the gilt-mirrored State Dining Room. He tested a steering wheel designed by middle schoolers to detect distracted driving and peeked inside a robot that plays soccer. It was meant as an inspirational moment: children, science is fun; work harder. Politicians and educators have been wringing their hands for years over test scores showing American students falling behind their counterparts in Slovenia and Singapore. How will the United States stack up against global rivals in innovation? The president and industry groups have called on colleges to graduate 10,000 more engineers a year and 100,000 new teachers with majors in STEM — science, technology, engineering and math. All the Sputnik-like urgency has put classrooms from kindergarten through 12th grade — the pipeline, as they call it — under a microscope. And there are encouraging signs, with surveys showing the number of college freshmen interested in majoring in a STEM field on the rise. But, it turns out, middle and high school students are having most of the fun, building their erector sets and dropping eggs into water to test the first law of motion. The excitement quickly fades as students brush up against the reality of what David E. Goldberg, an emeritus engineering professor, calls “the math-science death march.” Freshmen in college wade through a blizzard of calculus, physics and chemistry in lecture halls with hundreds of other students. And then many wash out. Studies have found that roughly 40 percent of students planning engineering and science majors end up switching to other subjects or failing to get any degree. That increases to as much as 60 percent when pre-medical students, who typically have the strongest SAT scores and high school science preparation, are included, according to new data from the University of California at Los Angeles. That is twice the combined attrition rate of all other majors. For educators, the big question is how to keep the momentum being built in the lower grades from dissipating once the students get to college. “We’re losing an alarming proportion of our nation’s science talent once the students get to college,” says Mitchell J. Chang, an education professor at U.C.L.A. who has studied the matter. “It’s not just a K-12 preparation issue.” Professor Chang says that rather than losing mainly students from disadvantaged backgrounds or with lackluster records, the attrition rate can be higher at the most selective schools, where he believes the competition overwhelms even well-qualified students. “You’d like to think that since these institutions are getting the best students, the students who go there would have the best chances to succeed,” he says. “But if you take two students who have the same high school grade-point average and SAT scores, and you put one in a highly selective school like Berkeley and the other in a school with lower average scores like Cal State, that Berkeley student is at least 13 percent less likely than the one at Cal State to finish a STEM degree.” The bulk of attrition comes in engineering and among pre-med majors, who typically leave STEM fields if their hopes for medical school fade. There is no doubt that the main majors are difficult and growing more complex. Some students still lack math preparation or aren’t willing to work hard enough. Other deterrents are the tough freshman classes, typically followed by two years of fairly abstract courses leading to a senior research or design project. “It’s dry and hard to get through, so if you can create an oasis in there, it would be a good thing,” says Dr. Goldberg, who retired last year as an engineering professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and is now an education consultant. He thinks the president’s chances of getting his 10,000 engineers is “essentially nil.” In September, the Association of American Universities, which represents 61 of the largest research institutions, announced a five-year initiative to encourage faculty members in the STEM fields to use more interactive teaching techniques. “There is a long way to go,” says Hunter R. Rawlings, the association’s president, “and there is an urgent need to accelerate the process of reform.” The latest research also suggests that there could be more subtle problems at work, like the proliferation of grade inflation in the humanities and social sciences, which provides another incentive for students to leave STEM majors. It is no surprise that grades are lower in math and science, where the answers are clear-cut and there are no bonus points for flair. Professors also say they are strict because science and engineering courses build on one another, and a student who fails to absorb the key lessons in one class will flounder in the next. After studying nearly a decade of transcripts at one college, Kevin Rask, a professor at Wake Forest University, concluded last year that the grades in the introductory math and science classes were among the lowest on campus. The chemistry department gave the lowest grades over all, averaging 2.78 out of 4, followed by mathematics at 2.90. Education, language and English courses had the highest averages, ranging from 3.33 to 3.36. Ben Ost, a doctoral student at Cornell, found in a similar study that STEM students are both “pulled away” by high grades in their courses in other fields and “pushed out” by lower grades in their majors. MATTHEW MONIZ bailed out of engineering at Notre Dame in the fall of his sophomore year. He had been the kind of recruit most engineering departments dream about. He had scored an 800 in math on the SAT and in the 700s in both reading and writing. He also had taken Calculus BC and five other Advanced Placement courses at a prep school in Washington, D.C., and had long planned to major in engineering. But as Mr. Moniz sat in his mechanics class in 2009, he realized he had already had enough. “I was trying to memorize equations, and engineering’s all about the application, which they really didn’t teach too well,” he says. “It was just like, ‘Do these practice problems, then you’re on your own.’ ” And as he looked ahead at the curriculum, he did not see much relief on the horizon. So Mr. Moniz, a 21-year-old who likes poetry and had enjoyed introductory psychology, switched to a double major in psychology and English, where the classes are “a lot more discussion based.” He will graduate in May and plans to be a clinical psychologist. Of his four freshman buddies at Notre Dame, one switched to business, another to music. One of the two who is still in engineering plans to work in finance after graduation. Mr. Moniz’s experience illustrates how some of the best-prepared students find engineering education too narrow and lacking the passion of other fields. They also see easier ways to make money. Notre Dame’s engineering dean, Peter Kilpatrick, will be the first to concede that sophomore and junior years, which focus mainly on theory, remain a “weak link” in technical education. He says his engineering school has gradually improved its retention rate over the past decade by creating design projects for freshmen and breaking “a deadly lecture” for 400 students into groups of 80. Only 50 to 55 percent of the school’s students stayed through graduation 10 years ago. But that figure now tops 75 percent, he says, and efforts to create more labs in the middle years could help raise it further. “We’re two years into that experiment and, quite honestly, it’s probably going to take 5 to 10 years before we’re really able to inflesh the whole curriculum with this project-based learning,” Dean Kilpatrick says. No one doubts that students need a strong theoretical foundation. But what frustrates education experts is how long it has taken for most schools to make changes. The National Science Board, a public advisory body, warned in the mid-1980s that students were losing sight of why they wanted to be scientists and engineers in the first place. Research confirmed in the 1990s that students learn more by grappling with open-ended problems, like creating a computer game or designing an alternative energy system, than listening to lectures. While the National Science Foundation went on to finance pilot courses that employed interactive projects, when the money dried up, so did most of the courses. Lecture classes are far cheaper to produce, and top professors are focused on bringing in research grants, not teaching undergraduates. In 2005, the National Academy of Engineering concluded that “scattered interventions” had not resulted in widespread change. “Treating the freshman year as a ‘sink or swim’ experience and accepting attrition as inevitable,” it said, “is both unfair to students and wasteful of resources and faculty time.” Since becoming Notre Dame’s dean in 2008, Dr. Kilpatrick has revamped and expanded a freshman design course that had gotten “a little bit stale.” The students now do four projects. They build Lego robots and design bridges capable of carrying heavy loads at minimal cost. They also create electronic circuit boards and dream up a project of their own. “They learn how to work with their hands, how to program the robot and how to work with design constraints,” he says. But he also says it’s inevitable that students will be lost. Some new students do not have a good feel for how deeply technical engineering is. Other bright students may have breezed through high school without developing disciplined habits. By contrast, students in China and India focus relentlessly on math and science from an early age. “We’re in a worldwide competition, and we’ve got to retain as many of our students as we can,” Dean Kirkpatrick says. “But we’re not doing kids a favor if we’re not teaching them good life and study skills.” WORCESTER POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE, in Massachusetts, one of the nation’s oldest technological schools, has taken the idea of projects to heart. While it still expects students to push their way through standard engineering and science classes, it ripped up its traditional curriculum in the 1970s to make room for extensive research, design and social-service projects by juniors and seniors, including many conducted on trips with professors overseas. In 2007, it added optional first-year projects — which a quarter of its freshmen do — focused on world problems like hunger or disease. “That kind of early engagement, and letting them see they can work on something that is interesting and important, is a big deal,” says Arthur C. Heinricher, the dean of undergraduate studies. “That hooks students.” And so late this past summer, about 90 freshmen received e-mails asking if they typically received flu vaccines. The e-mails were not from the health services office, but from students measuring how widely flu spreads at different rates of vaccination. Two of the students had spent part of their freshmen year researching diseases and devising a survey. Now, as juniors, they were recruiting the newcomers to take part in simulations, using neon wristbands and stickers, to track how many of them became “infected” as they mingled during orientation. Brenna Pugliese, one of the juniors and a biology major, says the two-day exercise raised awareness on campus of the need for more students to get the vaccine. “I can honestly say that I learned more about various biology topics than I ever learned in any other class,” she says. Teachers say they have been surprised by the sophistication of some of the freshmen projects, like a device to harvest kinetic energy that is now being patented. But the main goals are to enable students to work closely with faculty members, build confidence and promote teamwork. Studies have shown that women, in particular, want to see their schoolwork is connected to helping people, and the projects help them feel more comfortable in STEM fields, where men far outnumber women everywhere except in biology. Seventy-four percent of W.P.I. undergraduates earn bachelor’s degrees within four years and 80 percent by six years. Most of the top state research universities have added at least a splash of design work in the freshman year. The University of Illinois began this fall to require freshmen engineering students to take a course on aspirations for the profession and encourages them to do a design project or take a leadership seminar. Most technical schools push students to seek summer internships and take semesters off to gain practical work experiences. The hope is that the lure of high-paying jobs during an economic downturn will convince more students to stick with it. Some private schools have also adjusted their grading policies to ease some of the pressure on STEM students. The Massachusetts Institute of Technology has long given freshmen only “pass” or “no record” grades in the first half of the year while they get used to the workload. W.P.I. lets undergraduates take up to three classes for which no grade is recorded if they would have received less than a C. Any required courses would have to be repeated. Ilea Graedel, a 20-year-old junior in aerospace engineering, says that policy provides “a nice buffer if you want to try something new, like a class outside your comfort zone.” But what really helps Ms. Graedel get through the rigors of STEM, she says, is hanging onto her aspirations. She grew up in a farming area in Washington State, the only student from her high school class of 26 pursuing a technology degree. She has wanted to be an astronaut since she was 3, when her mother took her to Boeing’s Museum of Flight in Seattle and bought her a book called “I Want to Be an Astronaut.” The space program has been sharply cut back. Still, she says, “I’m going to hold onto that dream very dearly.” Christopher Drew covers military technology for The Times. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Nov 4 19:05:54 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:05:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: b2ce4224-e61f-4bcb-b738-c1d756a97073@samobile.net David, With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those of us whom such logic doesn't work for? I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else go nuts. *grin* Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I hope the analogy is not too remote. My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change to happen and take the steps to start it. Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. anyone with me? The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we could come up with some crazy way to get it going. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Arielle: > I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the > biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the > blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could > do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which > they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. > I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! > Dave > At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: >> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >> people to think about. >> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >> groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >> against other minority groups. >> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >> said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >> here? >> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >> never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >> members of the public to see this? >> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >> I look forward to the discussion. >> Best, >> Arielle > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 21:56:38 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:56:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] =?windows-1252?q?Why_Science_Majors_Change_Their_Minds_?= =?windows-1252?q?=28It=92s_Just_So_Darn_Hard=29_-_NYTimes=2Ecom?= In-Reply-To: <7B07BE2F-3B1D-4EFD-AC55-BB27D8DB6F1F@sbcglobal.net> References: <7B07BE2F-3B1D-4EFD-AC55-BB27D8DB6F1F@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: A very nice article! It really makes me think, though, if it's so hard to get students in general to follow STEM subjects in college and beyond, how much harder must it be to get blind students to do so. There is so much against blind students in the STEM subjects, students will quickly get frustrated. One simple example: I'm going into an intermediate algebra class. They are changing the way they teach the class, using 'modules' on-line. These modules are not accessible and they know it. Disability Support Services has promised the math department that they will not register any blind or visually impaired students in the module classes because of the accessibility issues. So, instead of geting to try out the new system, which has been said to be better (though I have no clue how), I'm stuck in one of the few algebra classes that aren't following the module system next semester. Math is already difficult for me, because I have dyscalculia and because I don't know Nemeth very well, but layer on top of that I'm going to be in a class that is not up-to-date? It frustrates me, and I just thank goodness I'm not trying to be a math or science major, because accessibility would continue to be an issue in the higher classes. I'm having a hard enough time without the accessibility issues. My two cents, Jewel On 11/4/11, Hai Nguyen Ly wrote: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-majors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all > > Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard) > > LAST FALL, President Obama threw what was billed as the first White House > Science Fair, a photo op in the gilt-mirrored State Dining Room. He tested a > steering wheel designed by middle schoolers to detect distracted driving and > peeked inside a robot that plays soccer. It was meant as an inspirational > moment: children, science is fun; work harder. > > Politicians and educators have been wringing their hands for years over test > scores showing American students falling behind their counterparts in > Slovenia and Singapore. How will the United States stack up against global > rivals in innovation? The president and industry groups have called on > colleges to graduate 10,000 more engineers a year and 100,000 new teachers > with majors in STEM — science, technology, engineering and math. All the > Sputnik-like urgency has put classrooms from kindergarten through 12th grade > — the pipeline, as they call it — under a microscope. And there are > encouraging signs, with surveys showing the number of college freshmen > interested in majoring in a STEM field on the rise. > > But, it turns out, middle and high school students are having most of the > fun, building their erector sets and dropping eggs into water to test the > first law of motion. The excitement quickly fades as students brush up > against the reality of what David E. Goldberg, an emeritus engineering > professor, calls “the math-science death march.” Freshmen in college wade > through a blizzard of calculus, physics and chemistry in lecture halls with > hundreds of other students. And then many wash out. > > Studies have found that roughly 40 percent of students planning engineering > and science majors end up switching to other subjects or failing to get any > degree. That increases to as much as 60 percent when pre-medical students, > who typically have the strongest SAT scores and high school science > preparation, are included, according to new data from the University of > California at Los Angeles. That is twice the combined attrition rate of all > other majors. > > For educators, the big question is how to keep the momentum being built in > the lower grades from dissipating once the students get to college. > > “We’re losing an alarming proportion of our nation’s science talent once the > students get to college,” says Mitchell J. Chang, an education professor at > U.C.L.A. who has studied the matter. “It’s not just a K-12 preparation > issue.” > > Professor Chang says that rather than losing mainly students from > disadvantaged backgrounds or with lackluster records, the attrition rate can > be higher at the most selective schools, where he believes the competition > overwhelms even well-qualified students. > > “You’d like to think that since these institutions are getting the best > students, the students who go there would have the best chances to succeed,” > he says. “But if you take two students who have the same high school > grade-point average and SAT scores, and you put one in a highly selective > school like Berkeley and the other in a school with lower average scores > like Cal State, that Berkeley student is at least 13 percent less likely > than the one at Cal State to finish a STEM degree.” > > The bulk of attrition comes in engineering and among pre-med majors, who > typically leave STEM fields if their hopes for medical school fade. There is > no doubt that the main majors are difficult and growing more complex. Some > students still lack math preparation or aren’t willing to work hard enough. > > Other deterrents are the tough freshman classes, typically followed by two > years of fairly abstract courses leading to a senior research or design > project. “It’s dry and hard to get through, so if you can create an oasis in > there, it would be a good thing,” says Dr. Goldberg, who retired last year > as an engineering professor at the University of Illinois at > Urbana-Champaign and is now an education consultant. He thinks the > president’s chances of getting his 10,000 engineers is “essentially nil.” > > In September, the Association of American Universities, which represents 61 > of the largest research institutions, announced a five-year initiative to > encourage faculty members in the STEM fields to use more interactive > teaching techniques. > > “There is a long way to go,” says Hunter R. Rawlings, the association’s > president, “and there is an urgent need to accelerate the process of > reform.” > > The latest research also suggests that there could be more subtle problems > at work, like the proliferation of grade inflation in the humanities and > social sciences, which provides another incentive for students to leave STEM > majors. It is no surprise that grades are lower in math and science, where > the answers are clear-cut and there are no bonus points for flair. > Professors also say they are strict because science and engineering courses > build on one another, and a student who fails to absorb the key lessons in > one class will flounder in the next. > > After studying nearly a decade of transcripts at one college, Kevin Rask, a > professor at Wake Forest University, concluded last year that the grades in > the introductory math and science classes were among the lowest on campus. > The chemistry department gave the lowest grades over all, averaging 2.78 out > of 4, followed by mathematics at 2.90. Education, language and English > courses had the highest averages, ranging from 3.33 to 3.36. > > Ben Ost, a doctoral student at Cornell, found in a similar study that STEM > students are both “pulled away” by high grades in their courses in other > fields and “pushed out” by lower grades in their majors. > > MATTHEW MONIZ bailed out of engineering at Notre Dame in the fall of his > sophomore year. He had been the kind of recruit most engineering departments > dream about. He had scored an 800 in math on the SAT and in the 700s in both > reading and writing. He also had taken Calculus BC and five other Advanced > Placement courses at a prep school in Washington, D.C., and had long planned > to major in engineering. > > But as Mr. Moniz sat in his mechanics class in 2009, he realized he had > already had enough. “I was trying to memorize equations, and engineering’s > all about the application, which they really didn’t teach too well,” he > says. “It was just like, ‘Do these practice problems, then you’re on your > own.’ ” And as he looked ahead at the curriculum, he did not see much relief > on the horizon. > > So Mr. Moniz, a 21-year-old who likes poetry and had enjoyed introductory > psychology, switched to a double major in psychology and English, where the > classes are “a lot more discussion based.” He will graduate in May and plans > to be a clinical psychologist. Of his four freshman buddies at Notre Dame, > one switched to business, another to music. One of the two who is still in > engineering plans to work in finance after graduation. > > Mr. Moniz’s experience illustrates how some of the best-prepared students > find engineering education too narrow and lacking the passion of other > fields. They also see easier ways to make money. > > Notre Dame’s engineering dean, Peter Kilpatrick, will be the first to > concede that sophomore and junior years, which focus mainly on theory, > remain a “weak link” in technical education. He says his engineering school > has gradually improved its retention rate over the past decade by creating > design projects for freshmen and breaking “a deadly lecture” for 400 > students into groups of 80. Only 50 to 55 percent of the school’s students > stayed through graduation 10 years ago. But that figure now tops 75 percent, > he says, and efforts to create more labs in the middle years could help > raise it further. > > “We’re two years into that experiment and, quite honestly, it’s probably > going to take 5 to 10 years before we’re really able to inflesh the whole > curriculum with this project-based learning,” Dean Kilpatrick says. > > No one doubts that students need a strong theoretical foundation. But what > frustrates education experts is how long it has taken for most schools to > make changes. > > The National Science Board, a public advisory body, warned in the mid-1980s > that students were losing sight of why they wanted to be scientists and > engineers in the first place. Research confirmed in the 1990s that students > learn more by grappling with open-ended problems, like creating a computer > game or designing an alternative energy system, than listening to lectures. > While the National Science Foundation went on to finance pilot courses that > employed interactive projects, when the money dried up, so did most of the > courses. Lecture classes are far cheaper to produce, and top professors are > focused on bringing in research grants, not teaching undergraduates. > > In 2005, the National Academy of Engineering concluded that “scattered > interventions” had not resulted in widespread change. “Treating the freshman > year as a ‘sink or swim’ experience and accepting attrition as inevitable,” > it said, “is both unfair to students and wasteful of resources and faculty > time.” > > Since becoming Notre Dame’s dean in 2008, Dr. Kilpatrick has revamped and > expanded a freshman design course that had gotten “a little bit stale.” The > students now do four projects. They build Lego robots and design bridges > capable of carrying heavy loads at minimal cost. They also create electronic > circuit boards and dream up a project of their own. > > “They learn how to work with their hands, how to program the robot and how > to work with design constraints,” he says. But he also says it’s inevitable > that students will be lost. Some new students do not have a good feel for > how deeply technical engineering is. Other bright students may have breezed > through high school without developing disciplined habits. By contrast, > students in China and India focus relentlessly on math and science from an > early age. > > “We’re in a worldwide competition, and we’ve got to retain as many of our > students as we can,” Dean Kirkpatrick says. “But we’re not doing kids a > favor if we’re not teaching them good life and study skills.” > > WORCESTER POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE, in Massachusetts, one of the nation’s > oldest technological schools, has taken the idea of projects to heart. While > it still expects students to push their way through standard engineering and > science classes, it ripped up its traditional curriculum in the 1970s to > make room for extensive research, design and social-service projects by > juniors and seniors, including many conducted on trips with professors > overseas. In 2007, it added optional first-year projects — which a quarter > of its freshmen do — focused on world problems like hunger or disease. > > “That kind of early engagement, and letting them see they can work on > something that is interesting and important, is a big deal,” says Arthur C. > Heinricher, the dean of undergraduate studies. “That hooks students.” > > And so late this past summer, about 90 freshmen received e-mails asking if > they typically received flu vaccines. The e-mails were not from the health > services office, but from students measuring how widely flu spreads at > different rates of vaccination. Two of the students had spent part of their > freshmen year researching diseases and devising a survey. Now, as juniors, > they were recruiting the newcomers to take part in simulations, using neon > wristbands and stickers, to track how many of them became “infected” as they > mingled during orientation. > > Brenna Pugliese, one of the juniors and a biology major, says the two-day > exercise raised awareness on campus of the need for more students to get the > vaccine. “I can honestly say that I learned more about various biology > topics than I ever learned in any other class,” she says. > > Teachers say they have been surprised by the sophistication of some of the > freshmen projects, like a device to harvest kinetic energy that is now being > patented. But the main goals are to enable students to work closely with > faculty members, build confidence and promote teamwork. Studies have shown > that women, in particular, want to see their schoolwork is connected to > helping people, and the projects help them feel more comfortable in STEM > fields, where men far outnumber women everywhere except in biology. > > Seventy-four percent of W.P.I. undergraduates earn bachelor’s degrees within > four years and 80 percent by six years. > > Most of the top state research universities have added at least a splash of > design work in the freshman year. The University of Illinois began this fall > to require freshmen engineering students to take a course on aspirations for > the profession and encourages them to do a design project or take a > leadership seminar. Most technical schools push students to seek summer > internships and take semesters off to gain practical work experiences. The > hope is that the lure of high-paying jobs during an economic downturn will > convince more students to stick with it. > > Some private schools have also adjusted their grading policies to ease some > of the pressure on STEM students. The Massachusetts Institute of Technology > has long given freshmen only “pass” or “no record” grades in the first half > of the year while they get used to the workload. W.P.I. lets undergraduates > take up to three classes for which no grade is recorded if they would have > received less than a C. Any required courses would have to be repeated. > > Ilea Graedel, a 20-year-old junior in aerospace engineering, says that > policy provides “a nice buffer if you want to try something new, like a > class outside your comfort zone.” > > But what really helps Ms. Graedel get through the rigors of STEM, she says, > is hanging onto her aspirations. She grew up in a farming area in Washington > State, the only student from her high school class of 26 pursuing a > technology degree. She has wanted to be an astronaut since she was 3, when > her mother took her to Boeing’s Museum of Flight in Seattle and bought her a > book called “I Want to Be an Astronaut.” > > The space program has been sharply cut back. Still, she says, “I’m going to > hold onto that dream very dearly.” > > > Christopher Drew covers military technology for The Times. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 22:30:55 2011 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 15:30:55 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Graphing and plotting coordinates accessibility on computer Message-ID: Hello fellow students: I am taking a math class this fall quarter in college, and they are requiring me to study graphs and slope forms. Of course, the way I have been doing these graphs and slopes is by using a graph paper I got from my former teacher of the blind. I am requesting more graph paper through the DSS office; hopefully they will get it. I am only relying on that one sheet of graph paper to virtually plot my points and lines and I let someone else or a tutor actually plot the points in a printed sighted graph. but until I acquire more and more graph paper from the DSO, I have the following question: Is there any way that I can do graphs on a PC with JAWS? Is there a program like Microsoft Excel, or word, that are capable of doing graphing? I am interested in being able to do X-Y graphs with the arrows, as if I read the equation and then solve to get the coordinate pairs, and then plotting them. Or with slopes, be able to plot the points and create the line. Which piece of software will do this, and if there is any third party software that is capable of graphing like mentioned, is it accessible? Any suggestions and ideas are welcome please. Also please let me know ASAP as I need to get more work done on these types of graphs in the future, plus, I have a test on this probably next week. cheers, Humberto From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 22:47:34 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 16:47:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <4eb437cf.86962a0a.36f4.ffffc7b8SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4eb437cf.86962a0a.36f4.ffffc7b8SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi all, These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, psychologists have identified specific factors in the social environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable as whites if the social environment supports their success. We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind people function requires some creative thinking and mental flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on board for the environmental modifications we need to be equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes will give us equal opportunity. Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. Best, Arielle On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: > David, > > With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us > for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we > say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we > somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message > which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or > ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those > of us whom such logic doesn't work for? > > I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't > know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I > started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling > upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I > started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to > whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. > Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else > go nuts. *grin* > > Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that > what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be > malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or > so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so > until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're > harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I > hope the analogy is not too remote. > > My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted > when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be > treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of > the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the > sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and > that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a > large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, > why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal > lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a > lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). > > Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we > can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop > excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted > thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is > realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change > to happen and take the steps to start it. > > Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we > need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we > still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out > of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have > cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher > faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current > generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the > sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. > anyone with me? > > The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to > communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked > about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through > education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of > going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who > specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their > experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the > Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the > Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help > groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; > we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB > convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; > maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the > Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train > as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from > affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter > groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of > people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do > so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. > > Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, > and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to > need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from > anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we > could come up with some crazy way to get it going. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Arielle: > >> I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the >> biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the >> blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could >> do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which >> they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. > >> I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! > >> Dave > >> At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: >>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >>> people to think about. >>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>> against other minority groups. >>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >>> here? >>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >>> members of the public to see this? >>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>> I look forward to the discussion. >>> Best, >>> Arielle > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Nov 4 22:59:21 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:59:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4eb437cf.86962a0a.36f4.ffffc7b8SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I actually did a presentation at my college, for "Meet the Blind," month where I showed everyone how to guide a blind person, and I taught them the blindness courtesy rules, from the NFB. I'd encourage all students here, to ask if you can do the same thing, at your colleges. Blessings, Joshua On 11/4/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this > discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. > As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when > African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white > Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race > science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it > to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has > been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, > psychologists have identified specific factors in the social > environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on > standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in > intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded > in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, > and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to > perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because > African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this > stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. > As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted > public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the > inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we > have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social > environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of > instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of > accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the > condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our > lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority > of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally > successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social > conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now > understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable > as whites if the social environment supports their success. > We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be > difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted > people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our > culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people > assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why > literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights > the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, > and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to > teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People > have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some > mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about > the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, > and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these > beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind > people function requires some creative thinking and mental > flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are > willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on > board for the environmental modifications we need to be > equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes > will give us equal opportunity. > Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start > standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to > accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant > behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is > that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be > misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other > minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or > outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an > illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness > is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really > being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I > often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and > would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled > me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a > b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their > behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I > definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and > directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way > that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be > interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: >> David, >> >> With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us >> for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we >> say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we >> somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message >> which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or >> ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those >> of us whom such logic doesn't work for? >> >> I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't >> know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I >> started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling >> upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I >> started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to >> whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. >> Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else >> go nuts. *grin* >> >> Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that >> what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be >> malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or >> so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so >> until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're >> harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I >> hope the analogy is not too remote. >> >> My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted >> when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be >> treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of >> the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the >> sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and >> that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a >> large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, >> why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal >> lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a >> lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). >> >> Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we >> can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop >> excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted >> thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is >> realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change >> to happen and take the steps to start it. >> >> Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we >> need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we >> still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out >> of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have >> cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher >> faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current >> generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the >> sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. >> anyone with me? >> >> The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to >> communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked >> about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through >> education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of >> going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who >> specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their >> experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the >> Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the >> Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help >> groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; >> we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB >> convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; >> maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the >> Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train >> as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from >> affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter >> groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of >> people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do >> so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. >> >> Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, >> and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to >> need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from >> anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we >> could come up with some crazy way to get it going. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> Arielle: >> >>> I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the >>> biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the >>> blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could >>> do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which >>> they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. >> >>> I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! >> >>> Dave >> >>> At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: >>>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >>>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >>>> people to think about. >>>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >>>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >>>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >>>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >>>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >>>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >>>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >>>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>>> against other minority groups. >>>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >>>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >>>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >>>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >>>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >>>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >>>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >>>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >>>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >>>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >>>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >>>> here? >>>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >>>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >>>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >>>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >>>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >>>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >>>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >>>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >>>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >>>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >>>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >>>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >>>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >>>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >>>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >>>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >>>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >>>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >>>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >>>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >>>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >>>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >>>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >>>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >>>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >>>> members of the public to see this? >>>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >>>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >>>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>>> I look forward to the discussion. >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Nov 4 23:55:33 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 19:55:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: 1ce002be-8f46-4218-b9d7-16e4fc0cb3bb@samobile.net arielle, I wondered about this rudeness thing, too. And I guess that underscores for me why it's so important to stand up for ourselves. If the sighted are writing us off as rude when we stand up for ourselves, they're basically dealing with cognitive dissonence; they're finding out that we don't appreciate the kindness they think we ought to appreciate, so it's much easier to assume that something is wrong with us than to think that maybe they need to change their behavior. Other minorities started out with the same problem and still face it to a great extent. But for them, it only got better through persistence. Whites started realizing that Blacks weren't being "uppity" when saying that it's not okay to discriminate against people based on skin color or inflict psychological or physical injury because of skin color. Now, most Whites realize that it's our behavior that needed changing, not theirs. Women still face the challenge of rudeness when men offer "polite gestures" such as opening a door or offering to walk a woman home lest she be assaulted by someone in the dark. I think this is something that we're just going to have to deal with until enough sighted people realize that it's not just one or two of us that are unhappy with the status quo. And I think, too, that some sighted people will, either right away or after the fact, get it and help us spread our message. I've heard of sighted people who have confronted other sighted people about their behavior toward the blind. Some have been successful in their efforts to educate through dialogue. I think of Darick Williamson, for example. He has an amazing way of educating other sighted people in a meaningful way. I know some of my other sighted friends have had similar success. but beyond that, I think the big thing is simply not to hold ourselves responsible for how the sighted react to us. That's part of why the status quo is what it is. We've been taught to be ambassadors for the blind; we have been taught to guard our words and actions such that the sighted don't think we're being rude. Social conflict being what it is, that's just not terribly realistic. If you're going to be honest with someone, you run the risk of temporarily causing them some pain. The trick is to not cause more pain than is necessary; there is such a thing as tact and empathy for where the sighted are coming from; that tact and empathy can help the sighted person heal from their temporary pain provided that the sighted person has the authentic strength of character to want to heal, learn, and grow. There will be some we just can't touch, and there's not much we can do to help them for the time being. They'll have to figure it out through reapeated similar experiences that challenge their notions about the world and the people in it. But at least we honored ourselves and were honest. In short, you just have to do the best you can. And rather than judging each other for "failed attempts" (in quotes) with the sighted, we need to recognize that we're all in it together and that no one is perfect; we also need to recognize that we each might have done or said the same thing to the sighted person in question had it been us. I think we suffer from two great fears when trying to be honest with the sighted: we're afraid of what the sighted person will think and we're afraid of what other blind people will think. Carl Rogers once theorized that we tend to adopt other people's values and judgments and act on them as though they are our own. In the meantime, we've completely gotten away from our basic experience and developed a distorted sense of who we really are and what matters to us. In short, there is no real formula for dealing with the sighted except to speak from your inner experience while doing as little harm to the other as possible. All we need is a little practice in a safe environment such as an encounter group with caring and supportive blind people. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi all, > These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this > discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. > As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when > African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white > Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race > science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it > to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has > been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, > psychologists have identified specific factors in the social > environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on > standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in > intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded > in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, > and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to > perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because > African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this > stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. > As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted > public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the > inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we > have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social > environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of > instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of > accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the > condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our > lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority > of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally > successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social > conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now > understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable > as whites if the social environment supports their success. > We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be > difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted > people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our > culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people > assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why > literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights > the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, > and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to > teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People > have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some > mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about > the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, > and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these > beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind > people function requires some creative thinking and mental > flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are > willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on > board for the environmental modifications we need to be > equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes > will give us equal opportunity. > Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start > standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to > accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant > behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is > that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be > misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other > minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or > outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an > illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness > is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really > being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I > often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and > would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled > me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a > b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their > behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I > definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and > directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way > that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be > interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. > Best, > Arielle > On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: >> David, >> With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us >> for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we >> say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we >> somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message >> which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or >> ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those >> of us whom such logic doesn't work for? >> I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't >> know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I >> started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling >> upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I >> started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to >> whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. >> Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else >> go nuts. *grin* >> Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that >> what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be >> malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or >> so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so >> until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're >> harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I >> hope the analogy is not too remote. >> My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted >> when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be >> treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of >> the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the >> sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and >> that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a >> large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, >> why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal >> lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a >> lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). >> Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we >> can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop >> excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted >> thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is >> realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change >> to happen and take the steps to start it. >> Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we >> need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we >> still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out >> of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have >> cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher >> faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current >> generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the >> sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. >> anyone with me? >> The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to >> communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked >> about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through >> education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of >> going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who >> specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their >> experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the >> Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the >> Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help >> groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; >> we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB >> convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; >> maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the >> Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train >> as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from >> affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter >> groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of >> people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do >> so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. >> Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, >> and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to >> need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from >> anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we >> could come up with some crazy way to get it going. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> Arielle: >>> I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the >>> biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the >>> blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could >>> do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which >>> they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. >>> I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! >>> Dave >>> At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: >>>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >>>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >>>> people to think about. >>>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >>>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >>>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >>>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >>>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >>>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >>>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >>>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>>> against other minority groups. >>>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >>>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >>>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >>>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >>>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >>>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >>>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >>>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >>>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >>>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >>>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >>>> here? >>>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >>>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >>>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >>>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >>>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >>>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >>>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >>>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >>>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >>>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >>>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >>>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >>>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >>>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >>>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >>>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >>>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >>>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >>>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >>>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >>>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >>>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >>>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >>>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >>>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >>>> members of the public to see this? >>>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >>>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >>>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>>> I look forward to the discussion. >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us Sat Nov 5 00:18:44 2011 From: icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us (Icewolf) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:18:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Graphing and plotting coordinates accessibility on computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB480E4.7080008@gtwebdesign.us> Hello, There are a couple of options here. First, there is the Audio Graphing Calculator from View plus. It does cost $299.00 though. Just google it and it should be fairly easy to find. There is also MathTrax. this is a free online graphing calculator that is accessible. It was developed by NASA. Here is the link for it: http://prime.jsc.nasa.gov/mathtrax/ Hope this helps, Greg Wocher Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of all days. On 11/4/2011 6:30 PM, Humberto Avila wrote: > Hello fellow students: > > I am taking a math class this fall quarter in college, and they are > requiring me to study graphs and slope forms. Of course, the way I have been > doing these graphs and slopes is by using a graph paper I got from my former > teacher of the blind. I am requesting more graph paper through the DSS > office; hopefully they will get it. > > I am only relying on that one sheet of graph paper to virtually plot my > points and lines and I let someone else or a tutor actually plot the points > in a printed sighted graph. but until I acquire more and more graph paper > from the DSO, I have the following question: > > Is there any way that I can do graphs on a PC with JAWS? Is there a program > like Microsoft Excel, or word, that are capable of doing graphing? I am > interested in being able to do X-Y graphs with the arrows, as if I read the > equation and then solve to get the coordinate pairs, and then plotting them. > Or with slopes, be able to plot the points and create the line. > Which piece of software will do this, and if there is any third party > software that is capable of graphing like mentioned, is it accessible? > > Any suggestions and ideas are welcome please. Also please let me know ASAP > as I need to get more work done on these types of graphs in the future, > plus, I have a test on this probably next week. > > cheers, > Humberto > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 01:45:35 2011 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 18:45:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Graphing and plotting coordinates accessibility oncomputer In-Reply-To: <4EB480E4.7080008@gtwebdesign.us> References: <4EB480E4.7080008@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: <0DD41E3630B345B080C6912F46CB1C34@HUMBERTOAVILA> Hello there. Does that free online graphing calculator you mention from NASA have the ability to somehow copy the graph you graphed and paste it into another program like Word? Or can I at least download the immage of my calculated graph to my computer and insert it as an object in Word or so? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Icewolf Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 5:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Graphing and plotting coordinates accessibility oncomputer Hello, There are a couple of options here. First, there is the Audio Graphing Calculator from View plus. It does cost $299.00 though. Just google it and it should be fairly easy to find. There is also MathTrax. this is a free online graphing calculator that is accessible. It was developed by NASA. Here is the link for it: http://prime.jsc.nasa.gov/mathtrax/ Hope this helps, Greg Wocher Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of all days. On 11/4/2011 6:30 PM, Humberto Avila wrote: > Hello fellow students: > > I am taking a math class this fall quarter in college, and they are > requiring me to study graphs and slope forms. Of course, the way I > have been doing these graphs and slopes is by using a graph paper I > got from my former teacher of the blind. I am requesting more graph > paper through the DSS office; hopefully they will get it. > > I am only relying on that one sheet of graph paper to virtually plot > my points and lines and I let someone else or a tutor actually plot > the points in a printed sighted graph. but until I acquire more and > more graph paper from the DSO, I have the following question: > > Is there any way that I can do graphs on a PC with JAWS? Is there a > program like Microsoft Excel, or word, that are capable of doing > graphing? I am interested in being able to do X-Y graphs with the > arrows, as if I read the equation and then solve to get the coordinate pairs, and then plotting them. > Or with slopes, be able to plot the points and create the line. > Which piece of software will do this, and if there is any third party > software that is capable of graphing like mentioned, is it accessible? > > Any suggestions and ideas are welcome please. Also please let me know > ASAP as I need to get more work done on these types of graphs in the > future, plus, I have a test on this probably next week. > > cheers, > Humberto > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwe > bdesign.us > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 07:42:28 2011 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:42:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Message-ID: Greetings Everyone! After many anxious requests for it, After many have been asking for it, I am happy to announce that... Tonight by 9 PM eastern, the new and upgraded nabslinkaudio.org web site will be up! What does this mean? It means that all the nabs membership calls that I've been able to record from the time the nabslinkaudio.org project launched to now will be available. But that's not all! Here are some of the new/improved features you can expect from the site. This year's meeting from national convention will be available for download. The final few parts of the elections got cut out sadly, but the ones for president, vice president and secretary get revealed. If anyone has any past national convention meetings they are willing to share, put them on sendspace or dropbox and email the link/links to djdrocks4ever at gmail.com so they too can be added. *Closer tighter integration with nabslink.org, meaning you'll beable to use the same navigation bar on the nabslink site over on the nabslink audio site too. This will make it easier for you to go from our audio pages to the student slate section if you want, etc. Steps will be taken to try to combine or integrate these sites a little more so they can perhaps become one resource for students A friendly greeting awaits your ears when you launch the new nabslinkaudio site, but it only plays one time and one time only unless you delete all your internet cookies everyday. This will not interfere with the use of your screen reader when the site is launched for the first time. I'd like to put some more informational audio up on the site. Like talk to people who hold various jobs who are part of the NFB in an effort to find out about the jobs, what their college experience was like while moving towards the goal of obtaining said job, what accessibility challenges came up and how they dealt with them, etc. I'm hoping I can integrate these things into the nabslinkaudio.org page as an educational resource for blind students. The ability to receive text notifications by cell phone when a new conference call is in the archives plus when one is about to air live is now fully integrated into the nabslink audio podcast page. Anyone wishing to use this feature, including those who previously took advantage of it on the old system will have to go through our automated registration and validation process. This will ensure you and the nabs membership committee that only the phone owner is using this feature and that phone numbers aren't being distributed everywhere. For anyone who fills out the contact form to leave me feedback I'll see it and be able to respond faster now since the form also sends me a text message.. The web address http://www.nabslinkaudio.org won't change. the site will be up by 9 PM eastern. As soon as it goes up, a tweet and an email will be sent out to this list, so feel free to spread the word once that happens and to leave your comments/feedback. If you need to get in touch, email djdrocks4ever at gmail.com >From David From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 07:45:17 2011 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:45:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Attention ToAll Book Lovers: Your Chance To Speak Live With An N L S Narrator Takes Place Today Message-ID: If You Are An Avid Reader Of NLS Books, Or If You Know Someone Who Is, Then The Following Announcement Applies To You or them!!! Please Spread The Word About The Following: Hi Everyone! Make yourself a nice meal, pull up a chair, and crank up the online radio station that stretches the boundaries of sound entertainment, Audio Access FM! Today, Saturday November 5 2011 at 1 PM eastern, Jonathan Matte returns with Episode 2 of his Entertainment Vault. On his debut show, he interviewed Lou Gutierez of Benefit Media Inc, a company that is responsible for reading and producing books for NLS, the service that blind people and others use for reading books both on tape and on Bard digitally. If you'd like to hear that first interview, visit http://www.audioaccessfm.com/archives/entertainmentvault Although the interview was pre recorded, we were very encouraged by the positive feedback we received, so today, we're raising the bar....It's time to meet some of the NLS narrators you've come to know and love...And we're going to speak with them live!!! At 1 PM eastern today, Jonathan will be speaking live with a man who has read many an NLS book, J P Linton. Learn about JP's life, his experiences as a narrator, and yes, you will have the opportunity to call in at the end and ask him questions too! This live presentation will be available for download by the end of the weekend for those who can't make it. If you'd be interested in having this presentation aired again in addition to us making it available for download, email me at djd at audioaccessfm.com and tell me when you'd want to have us play it again. Otherwise, it'll just go in to the entertainmentvault archives after it has aired. If you'd like to call in and ask questions during the presentation, you can add audio.accessfm to your skype, or call us at 516-324-2314 when we've opened the lines and given you the OK to call in, use the above number or skype info to join in. And to listen to today's live interview with JP Linton, which will air at 1 PM eastern today (noon central, 11 AM mountain and 10 AM pacific) visit http://www.audioaccessfm.com/listen_live.php We are very lucky and excited that JP is willing to give us a few minutes of his precious time, and for that we thank him. We hope you'll join us for what should be an incredible audio adventure that you won't find on Bard or in the NLS catalogue, but only on Audio Access FM live today at 1 PM eastern! See you there! From carlymih at earthlink.net Sat Nov 5 12:28:24 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 05:28:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Graphing and plotting coordinates accessibility oncomputer In-Reply-To: <0DD41E3630B345B080C6912F46CB1C34@HUMBERTOAVILA> References: <4EB480E4.7080008@gtwebdesign.us> <0DD41E3630B345B080C6912F46CB1C34@HUMBERTOAVILA> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111105052239.01d68438@earthlink.net> Good morning from Berkeley, In my algeabric experience, it proved enough while studying graphing, not to necessarily use graph paper or anything like that, but to simply imagine the positions of the various points then report what you figure if you are having someone else, actualize your work. This may sound more complicated at first, but I urge you to give it a try. for today,' Car At 06:45 PM 11/4/2011, Humberto Avila wrote: >Hello there. > >Does that free online graphing calculator you mention from NASA have the >ability to somehow copy the graph you graphed and paste it into another >program like Word? Or can I at least download the immage of my calculated >graph to my computer and insert it as an object in Word or so? > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Icewolf >Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 5:19 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Graphing and plotting coordinates accessibility >oncomputer > >Hello, >There are a couple of options here. First, there is the Audio Graphing >Calculator from View plus. It does cost $299.00 though. Just google it and >it should be fairly easy to find. There is also MathTrax. this is a free >online graphing calculator that is accessible. It was developed by NASA. >Here is the link for it: >http://prime.jsc.nasa.gov/mathtrax/ >Hope this helps, >Greg Wocher > >Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of all >days. > > >On 11/4/2011 6:30 PM, Humberto Avila wrote: > > Hello fellow students: > > > > I am taking a math class this fall quarter in college, and they are > > requiring me to study graphs and slope forms. Of course, the way I > > have been doing these graphs and slopes is by using a graph paper I > > got from my former teacher of the blind. I am requesting more graph > > paper through the DSS office; hopefully they will get it. > > > > I am only relying on that one sheet of graph paper to virtually plot > > my points and lines and I let someone else or a tutor actually plot > > the points in a printed sighted graph. but until I acquire more and > > more graph paper from the DSO, I have the following question: > > > > Is there any way that I can do graphs on a PC with JAWS? Is there a > > program like Microsoft Excel, or word, that are capable of doing > > graphing? I am interested in being able to do X-Y graphs with the > > arrows, as if I read the equation and then solve to get the coordinate >pairs, and then plotting them. > > Or with slopes, be able to plot the points and create the line. > > Which piece of software will do this, and if there is any third party > > software that is capable of graphing like mentioned, is it accessible? > > > > Any suggestions and ideas are welcome please. Also please let me know > > ASAP as I need to get more work done on these types of graphs in the > > future, plus, I have a test on this probably next week. > > > > cheers, > > Humberto > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwe > > bdesign.us > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >mail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 20:03:55 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:03:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <4eb47bb8.83862a0a.2a91.369dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4eb47bb8.83862a0a.2a91.369dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I have had the same thing happen to me that Arielle mentioned. I would not allow people to help me when I did not need it and would pull away from them. I went to a blind school in my highschool years and was even pulled in to the office with the house parents and evening super viser to address me on this rudeness of mine i had. As we would leave to dorm,the house parents would grab my arm and pull me through to door so I would not run in to the frame. I would pull my arm away and keep going, not running in to the frame. I guess they thought I would be like the other or some of the other totle blind ones an smack in to stuff if I was not helped. I had sight when I was young and lost it all at the age of eight, so I also will go threw doors at an angle or curve to the door like the sighted do, instead of walking strait untill I am side by side with the door way and then making a 90 degree turn in to it. ETC... But my whole point of posting is to tell a story of something that happened at school a couple of weeks ago. I do not always use the elevator but chose to do so this day cause I was tired and sick with alergies and had no inergy to run up three flights of stairs. There were two other ladies in the elervator talking as we were going up. they were talking about a lady in a wheel chair and how this lady would refuse help all the time. They said it with the tone that she was rude to refuse help when they thoght she needed it. so I popped up and said, "it is possible she doesn't even need your help and if she can do it on her own, then let her. She knows what she can and can't do." The elevator came to their floor and they got off and I am not quiet sure how they took it. I hope they thought about it though. I understood how the lady felt and hope that maybe I helped some how. On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: > arielle, > > I wondered about this rudeness thing, too. And I guess that underscores > for me why it's so important to stand up for ourselves. If the sighted > are writing us off as rude when we stand up for ourselves, they're > basically dealing with cognitive dissonence; they're finding out that > we don't appreciate the kindness they think we ought to appreciate, so > it's much easier to assume that something is wrong with us than to > think that maybe they need to change their behavior. Other minorities > started out with the same problem and still face it to a great extent. > But for them, it only got better through persistence. Whites started > realizing that Blacks weren't being "uppity" when saying that it's not > okay to discriminate against people based on skin color or inflict > psychological or physical injury because of skin color. Now, most > Whites realize that it's our behavior that needed changing, not theirs. > Women still face the challenge of rudeness when men offer "polite > gestures" such as opening a door or offering to walk a woman home lest > she be assaulted by someone in the dark. I think this is something that > we're just going to have to deal with until enough sighted people > realize that it's not just one or two of us that are unhappy with the > status quo. And I think, too, that some sighted people will, either > right away or after the fact, get it and help us spread our message. > I've heard of sighted people who have confronted other sighted people > about their behavior toward the blind. Some have been successful in > their efforts to educate through dialogue. I think of Darick > Williamson, for example. He has an amazing way of educating other > sighted people in a meaningful way. I know some of my other sighted > friends have had similar success. > > but beyond that, I think the big thing is simply not to hold ourselves > responsible for how the sighted react to us. That's part of why the > status quo is what it is. We've been taught to be ambassadors for the > blind; we have been taught to guard our words and actions such that the > sighted don't think we're being rude. Social conflict being what it is, > that's just not terribly realistic. If you're going to be honest with > someone, you run the risk of temporarily causing them some pain. The > trick is to not cause more pain than is necessary; there is such a > thing as tact and empathy for where the sighted are coming from; that > tact and empathy can help the sighted person heal from their temporary > pain provided that the sighted person has the authentic strength of > character to want to heal, learn, and grow. There will be some we just > can't touch, and there's not much we can do to help them for the time > being. They'll have to figure it out through reapeated similar > experiences that challenge their notions about the world and the people > in it. But at least we honored ourselves and were honest. > > In short, you just have to do the best you can. And rather than judging > each other for "failed attempts" (in quotes) with the sighted, we need > to recognize that we're all in it together and that no one is perfect; > we also need to recognize that we each might have done or said the same > thing to the sighted person in question had it been us. I think we > suffer from two great fears when trying to be honest with the sighted: > we're afraid of what the sighted person will think and we're afraid of > what other blind people will think. Carl Rogers once theorized that we > tend to adopt other people's values and judgments and act on them as > though they are our own. In the meantime, we've completely gotten away > from our basic experience and developed a distorted sense of who we > really are and what matters to us. > > In short, there is no real formula for dealing with the sighted except > to speak from your inner experience while doing as little harm to the > other as possible. All we need is a little practice in a safe > environment such as an encounter group with caring and supportive blind > people. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Hi all, >> These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this >> discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. >> As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when >> African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white >> Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race >> science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it >> to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has >> been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, >> psychologists have identified specific factors in the social >> environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on >> standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in >> intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded >> in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, >> and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to >> perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because >> African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this >> stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. >> As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted >> public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the >> inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we >> have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social >> environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of >> instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of >> accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the >> condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our >> lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority >> of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally >> successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social >> conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now >> understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable >> as whites if the social environment supports their success. >> We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be >> difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted >> people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our >> culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people >> assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why >> literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights >> the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, >> and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to >> teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People >> have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some >> mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about >> the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, >> and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these >> beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind >> people function requires some creative thinking and mental >> flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are >> willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on >> board for the environmental modifications we need to be >> equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes >> will give us equal opportunity. >> Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start >> standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to >> accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant >> behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is >> that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be >> misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other >> minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or >> outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an >> illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness >> is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really >> being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I >> often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and >> would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled >> me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a >> b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their >> behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I >> definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and >> directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way >> that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be >> interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. >> Best, >> Arielle > >> On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: >>> David, > >>> With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us >>> for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we >>> say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we >>> somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message >>> which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or >>> ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those >>> of us whom such logic doesn't work for? > >>> I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't >>> know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I >>> started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling >>> upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I >>> started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to >>> whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. >>> Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else >>> go nuts. *grin* > >>> Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that >>> what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be >>> malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or >>> so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so >>> until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're >>> harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I >>> hope the analogy is not too remote. > >>> My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted >>> when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be >>> treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of >>> the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the >>> sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and >>> that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a >>> large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, >>> why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal >>> lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a >>> lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). > >>> Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we >>> can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop >>> excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted >>> thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is >>> realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change >>> to happen and take the steps to start it. > >>> Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we >>> need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we >>> still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out >>> of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have >>> cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher >>> faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current >>> generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the >>> sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. >>> anyone with me? > >>> The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to >>> communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked >>> about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through >>> education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of >>> going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who >>> specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their >>> experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the >>> Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the >>> Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help >>> groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; >>> we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB >>> convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; >>> maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the >>> Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train >>> as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from >>> affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter >>> groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of >>> people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do >>> so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. > >>> Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, >>> and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to >>> need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from >>> anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we >>> could come up with some crazy way to get it going. > >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi > >>> Original message: >>>> Arielle: > >>>> I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the >>>> biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the >>>> blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could >>>> do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which >>>> they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. > >>>> I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! > >>>> Dave > >>>> At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: >>>>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >>>>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >>>>> people to think about. >>>>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >>>>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >>>>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >>>>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >>>>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >>>>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >>>>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >>>>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>>>> against other minority groups. >>>>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >>>>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >>>>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >>>>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >>>>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >>>>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >>>>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>>>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >>>>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >>>>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>>>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>>>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >>>>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >>>>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>>>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >>>>> here? >>>>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>>>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >>>>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>>>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >>>>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >>>>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>>>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >>>>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >>>>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >>>>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >>>>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >>>>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >>>>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >>>>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >>>>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >>>>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >>>>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>>>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >>>>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >>>>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >>>>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >>>>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >>>>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>>>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>>>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>>>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >>>>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >>>>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >>>>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >>>>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >>>>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >>>>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >>>>> members of the public to see this? >>>>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >>>>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >>>>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>>>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>>>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>>>> I look forward to the discussion. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 20:05:34 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:05:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4eb47bb8.83862a0a.2a91.369dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: sorry I did not finish, got distracted. But my point was that it is not just us blind people who faces these issues. The people in wheel chairs, walkers, older people all face this too. I am sure some others that i have not menchened are in the same boat as us. On 11/5/11, Lea williams wrote: > I have had the same thing happen to me that Arielle mentioned. I would > not allow people to help me when I did not need it and would pull away > from them. I went to a blind school in my highschool years and was > even pulled in to the office with the house parents and evening super > viser to address me on this rudeness of mine i had. As we would leave > to dorm,the house parents would grab my arm and pull me through to > door so I would not run in to the frame. I would pull my arm away and > keep going, not running in to the frame. I guess they thought I would > be like the other or some of the other totle blind ones an smack in to > stuff if I was not helped. I had sight when I was young and lost it > all at the age of eight, so I also will go threw doors at an angle or > curve to the door like the sighted do, instead of walking strait > untill I am side by side with the door way and then making a 90 degree > turn in to it. ETC... > > But my whole point of posting is to tell a story of something that > happened at school a couple of weeks ago. I do not always use the > elevator but chose to do so this day cause I was tired and sick with > alergies and had no inergy to run up three flights of stairs. There > were two other ladies in the elervator talking as we were going up. > they were talking about a lady in a wheel chair and how this lady > would refuse help all the time. They said it with the tone that she > was rude to refuse help when they thoght she needed it. so I popped up > and said, "it is possible she doesn't even need your help and if she > can do it on her own, then let her. She knows what she can and can't > do." > The elevator came to their floor and they got off and I am not quiet > sure how they took it. I hope they thought about it though. I > understood how the lady felt and hope that maybe I helped some how. > > > On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: >> arielle, >> >> I wondered about this rudeness thing, too. And I guess that underscores >> for me why it's so important to stand up for ourselves. If the sighted >> are writing us off as rude when we stand up for ourselves, they're >> basically dealing with cognitive dissonence; they're finding out that >> we don't appreciate the kindness they think we ought to appreciate, so >> it's much easier to assume that something is wrong with us than to >> think that maybe they need to change their behavior. Other minorities >> started out with the same problem and still face it to a great extent. >> But for them, it only got better through persistence. Whites started >> realizing that Blacks weren't being "uppity" when saying that it's not >> okay to discriminate against people based on skin color or inflict >> psychological or physical injury because of skin color. Now, most >> Whites realize that it's our behavior that needed changing, not theirs. >> Women still face the challenge of rudeness when men offer "polite >> gestures" such as opening a door or offering to walk a woman home lest >> she be assaulted by someone in the dark. I think this is something that >> we're just going to have to deal with until enough sighted people >> realize that it's not just one or two of us that are unhappy with the >> status quo. And I think, too, that some sighted people will, either >> right away or after the fact, get it and help us spread our message. >> I've heard of sighted people who have confronted other sighted people >> about their behavior toward the blind. Some have been successful in >> their efforts to educate through dialogue. I think of Darick >> Williamson, for example. He has an amazing way of educating other >> sighted people in a meaningful way. I know some of my other sighted >> friends have had similar success. >> >> but beyond that, I think the big thing is simply not to hold ourselves >> responsible for how the sighted react to us. That's part of why the >> status quo is what it is. We've been taught to be ambassadors for the >> blind; we have been taught to guard our words and actions such that the >> sighted don't think we're being rude. Social conflict being what it is, >> that's just not terribly realistic. If you're going to be honest with >> someone, you run the risk of temporarily causing them some pain. The >> trick is to not cause more pain than is necessary; there is such a >> thing as tact and empathy for where the sighted are coming from; that >> tact and empathy can help the sighted person heal from their temporary >> pain provided that the sighted person has the authentic strength of >> character to want to heal, learn, and grow. There will be some we just >> can't touch, and there's not much we can do to help them for the time >> being. They'll have to figure it out through reapeated similar >> experiences that challenge their notions about the world and the people >> in it. But at least we honored ourselves and were honest. >> >> In short, you just have to do the best you can. And rather than judging >> each other for "failed attempts" (in quotes) with the sighted, we need >> to recognize that we're all in it together and that no one is perfect; >> we also need to recognize that we each might have done or said the same >> thing to the sighted person in question had it been us. I think we >> suffer from two great fears when trying to be honest with the sighted: >> we're afraid of what the sighted person will think and we're afraid of >> what other blind people will think. Carl Rogers once theorized that we >> tend to adopt other people's values and judgments and act on them as >> though they are our own. In the meantime, we've completely gotten away >> from our basic experience and developed a distorted sense of who we >> really are and what matters to us. >> >> In short, there is no real formula for dealing with the sighted except >> to speak from your inner experience while doing as little harm to the >> other as possible. All we need is a little practice in a safe >> environment such as an encounter group with caring and supportive blind >> people. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> Hi all, >>> These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this >>> discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. >>> As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when >>> African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white >>> Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race >>> science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it >>> to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has >>> been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, >>> psychologists have identified specific factors in the social >>> environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on >>> standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in >>> intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded >>> in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, >>> and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to >>> perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because >>> African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this >>> stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. >>> As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted >>> public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the >>> inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we >>> have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social >>> environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of >>> instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of >>> accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the >>> condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our >>> lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority >>> of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally >>> successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social >>> conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now >>> understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable >>> as whites if the social environment supports their success. >>> We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be >>> difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted >>> people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our >>> culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people >>> assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why >>> literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights >>> the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, >>> and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to >>> teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People >>> have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some >>> mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about >>> the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, >>> and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these >>> beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind >>> people function requires some creative thinking and mental >>> flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are >>> willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on >>> board for the environmental modifications we need to be >>> equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes >>> will give us equal opportunity. >>> Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start >>> standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to >>> accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant >>> behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is >>> that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be >>> misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other >>> minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or >>> outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an >>> illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness >>> is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really >>> being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I >>> often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and >>> would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled >>> me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a >>> b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their >>> behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I >>> definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and >>> directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way >>> that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be >>> interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >> >>> On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> David, >> >>>> With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us >>>> for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we >>>> say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we >>>> somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message >>>> which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or >>>> ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those >>>> of us whom such logic doesn't work for? >> >>>> I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't >>>> know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I >>>> started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling >>>> upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I >>>> started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to >>>> whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. >>>> Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else >>>> go nuts. *grin* >> >>>> Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that >>>> what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be >>>> malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or >>>> so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so >>>> until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're >>>> harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I >>>> hope the analogy is not too remote. >> >>>> My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted >>>> when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be >>>> treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of >>>> the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the >>>> sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and >>>> that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a >>>> large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, >>>> why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal >>>> lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a >>>> lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of >>>> this). >> >>>> Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we >>>> can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop >>>> excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted >>>> thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is >>>> realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change >>>> to happen and take the steps to start it. >> >>>> Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we >>>> need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we >>>> still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out >>>> of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have >>>> cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher >>>> faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current >>>> generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the >>>> sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. >>>> anyone with me? >> >>>> The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to >>>> communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked >>>> about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through >>>> education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of >>>> going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who >>>> specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their >>>> experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the >>>> Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the >>>> Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help >>>> groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; >>>> we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB >>>> convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; >>>> maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the >>>> Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train >>>> as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from >>>> affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter >>>> groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of >>>> people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do >>>> so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. >> >>>> Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, >>>> and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to >>>> need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from >>>> anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we >>>> could come up with some crazy way to get it going. >> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Arielle: >> >>>>> I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the >>>>> biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the >>>>> blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could >>>>> do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which >>>>> they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. >> >>>>> I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! >> >>>>> Dave >> >>>>> At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: >>>>>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >>>>>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >>>>>> people to think about. >>>>>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >>>>>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >>>>>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >>>>>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >>>>>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >>>>>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >>>>>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >>>>>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>>>>> against other minority groups. >>>>>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, >>>>>> Jim >>>>>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >>>>>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so >>>>>> well, >>>>>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >>>>>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >>>>>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are >>>>>> such >>>>>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>>>>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what >>>>>> I >>>>>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said >>>>>> about >>>>>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>>>>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>>>>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >>>>>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >>>>>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>>>>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >>>>>> here? >>>>>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>>>>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >>>>>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>>>>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >>>>>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>>>>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >>>>>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >>>>>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >>>>>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They >>>>>> think >>>>>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >>>>>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >>>>>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >>>>>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >>>>>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many >>>>>> people >>>>>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and >>>>>> yet >>>>>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>>>>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >>>>>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >>>>>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >>>>>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >>>>>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >>>>>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>>>>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>>>>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>>>>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >>>>>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >>>>>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >>>>>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >>>>>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >>>>>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >>>>>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >>>>>> members of the public to see this? >>>>>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are >>>>>> "dual >>>>>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >>>>>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>>>>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>>>>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>>>>> I look forward to the discussion. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Lea Williams > > Phone; > 704-732-4470 > Skipe; > Lea.williams738 > Facebook > http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From dandrews at visi.com Sat Nov 5 20:26:34 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 15:26:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: b2ce4224-e61f-4bcb-b738-c1d756a97073@samobile.net References: Message-ID: I didn't say that we shouldn't do anything, or speak out. I was just trying to explain why I think people say some of what they say to us. I do think we need to speak out if we want to change this. Dave At 02:05 PM 11/4/2011, you wrote: >David, > >With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards >us for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When >we say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we >somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the >message which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about >it," or ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what >about those of us whom such logic doesn't work for? > >I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't >know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because >I started to think that there was something wrong with me for >feeling upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin >with. I started questioning the validity of my own experience as the >person to whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are >pressed upon. Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my >thinking or else go nuts. *grin* > >Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that >what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be >malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years >or so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to >do so until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, >we're harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as >anything. I hope the analogy is not too remote. > >My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the >sighted when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never >wish to be treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves >and the rest of the world to the fact that our interpersonal >relationships with the sighted public haven't changed as much as we >would like them to, and that these interpersonal (and intercultural) >relationships are, to a large extent, a huge part of why we have >such a high unemployment rate, why we experience discrimination in >our recreational and personal lives, and why the public still >largely considers us a non-entity in a lot of ways (I think internet >accessibility is a great example of this). > >Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think >we can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to >develop excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the >sighted thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first >step is realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend >that change to happen and take the steps to start it. > >Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we >need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we >still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are >out of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that >have cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need >fresher faces in these stories. we need more stories from the >current generation because that's who will be reading these stories >on the sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel >books. anyone with me? > >The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to >communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked >about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through >education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of >going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions >who specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their >experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the >Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the >Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help >groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more >effectively; we could potentially hold encounter groups during our >next NFB convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start >out with; maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. >Alternatively, the Federation could start a project wherein some of >us volunteer to train as facilitators through one of these entities >and then go around from affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, >and have these encounter groups locally. What would come out of >either approach is a group of people who are more willing to be >truthful with the sighted and can do so in a way that's honoring to >everyone concerned. > >Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some >time, and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm >going to need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in >hearing from anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and >who think we could come up with some crazy way to get it going. > >Respectfully, >Jedi > >Original message: >>Arielle: > >>I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the >>biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the >>blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could >>do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which >>they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. > >>I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! > >>Dave > >>At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: >>>Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >>>also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >>>people to think about. >>>Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >>>blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >>>groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >>>that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >>>group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >>>struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >>>discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >>>this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>>against other minority groups. >>>Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >>>Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >>>female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >>>sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >>>Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >>>class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >>>a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>>recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >>>said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >>>my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>>Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>>comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >>>someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >>>sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>>woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >>>here? >>>I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>>trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >>>race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>>against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >>>qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >>>people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>>people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >>>They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >>>why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >>>make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >>>they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >>>want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >>>Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >>>are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >>>against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >>>just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >>>an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>>anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >>>modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >>>college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >>>that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >>>never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >>>lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>>attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>>prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>>So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >>>than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >>>the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >>>small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >>>scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >>>you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >>>in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >>>members of the public to see this? >>>Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >>>minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >>>country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>>religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>>similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>>I look forward to the discussion. >>>Best, >>>Arielle > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >-- >Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sat Nov 5 22:46:44 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 17:46:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minority groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jedi, I completely agree with you. I always tell people that if with every encounter I decide to think, hmmm, they don't mean to be insulting or harmful, and keep my mouth shut, no one ever learns, no one is ever educated. We should be respectful and diplomatic, but we don't need to cater to the feelings of the ignorant if it keeps us from being viewed as equals and equally capable. With my blogs and speaking engagements, my message always centers around how what we think is the truth of reality is often just a perception of reality. Not only do I end up with people changing their minds about blindness, but they tell me how much they can relate to this concept of separating truth from reality. One of the biggest problems I have observed is our own attitudes and ideas towards blindness. In my experience, I find more sighted people willing to explore this concept than fellow blind people. We can teach the world we are capable and equal, but if blind people don't digest and believe this, it really doesn't matter. We need to start realizing our own true potential and distinguish truth from perception. Jedi's idea of sending ambassadors to affiliates and chapters is such a great idea. It's one thing to tell Federationist to go into their communities and dialogue, but it's an entirely different thing to be armed with knowledge of how best to execute such dialogues. As a collective, we need more cohesiveness, and we need better tools in order to effectively communicate our message. >From past experience, we know the nonblind world isn't going to encourage and stimulate the type of equality we are not only capable of but deserving. Though they may think they have our best interest in mind, past experience shows we didn't always fare well from these "good intentions." This is not to say non-blind people can't learn and grow and be active, vital parts of our collective, but we must be the leaders. This means we don't sit back when encountering ignorant mindsets, but actively work to change those mindsets even in casual encounters. I don't believe Dave meant to imply sighted people have no ill will so therefore we do nothing, but simply reminding us that, though misinformed and misguided, most sighted people just have no clue that what they do and say can be insulting, demeaning or just plain ignorant. We should handle situations with grace and diplomacy, but there's nothing wrong with taking the opportunity to inform and educate when people give us an open shot with ignorant slips. Think of it as Providince giving us a sign to open up a round of dialogue! Smile. Count me in, Jedi, to assist in forming some cohesive collaborations teaching us to better communicate. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 2 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:05:54 -0400 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: b2ce4224-e61f-4bcb-b738-c1d756a97073 at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" David, With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those of us whom such logic doesn't work for? I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else go nuts. *grin* Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I hope the analogy is not too remote. My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change to happen and take the steps to start it. Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. anyone with me? The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we could come up with some crazy way to get it going. Respectfully, Jedi From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 6 18:07:51 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:07:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think it's great that people are doing positive things during Meet the Blind Month. My chapter says every year that we're going to do something then we don't. It is doing activities like this that allow us to do community outreach that begins to people an opportunity to learn a different way of thinking. However, and I make this comment without knowing the full extend of which you did a presentation on, but perhaps we need to display a broader view of blindness and present more independent concepts. Nothing is wrong with sighted guide, and it's important sighted people who assist with guiding us know the proper way, but what about explaining the importance of independent mobility with a cane or dog, andhow this is equal to traveling with sight? And what about demonstrating Braille and how efficient it can be? As we educate, we want to instill the idea of independence, and how we can be equally independent among our sighted peers with little, to no, sighted assistance. I'm not suggesting blind people never require a pair of eyes, and we should instruct people in the best way in which to assist us, but I think we need to focus more on our independent capabilities and how we can be equally efficient than on how best to assist us such as sighted guide. I'm probably sparking controversy, but it goes back to the role we play in educating and informing. We don't have to "water-down" our message just because sighted people may be uncomfortable. We present ourselves with diplomacy, but we don't have to cater to what makes them feel better. The truth needs to be unleashed even if that makes people uncomfortable. Independence truly is a state of mind, and society must understand that a lack of sight doesn't equate to inferior or less capable- it's just a different way to do most the same things. I mean no offense, and I'm glad to hear of people being active in their communities, but I think what we present needs to focus on our best interest and not on issues making those who aren't blind feel less awkward and uncomfortable. It's our turn to assert and instill our goals and concepts. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 6 Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:59:21 -0500 From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I actually did a presentation at my college, for "Meet the Blind," month where I showed everyone how to guide a blind person, and I taught them the blindness courtesy rules, from the NFB. I'd encourage all students here, to ask if you can do the same thing, at your colleges. Blessings, Joshua From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Nov 6 18:13:55 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:13:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I discussed that, as well. I told them, if they'd just give me the directions, or help me to learn a route, I could travel endependently. I made a point of saying that I wasn't a baby, and I didn't want to be treated as such. I've had receptionists at the doctor's office want to grab my hand, and take me into the room, like a child. I kindly told them, that I could do it without assistance, once I learned the route. I also taught them sighted guide, (now called "Human Guide.") Blessings, Joshua On 11/6/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > I think it's great that people are doing positive things during Meet the > Blind Month. My chapter says every year that we're going to do something > then we don't. It is doing activities like this that allow us to do > community outreach that begins to people an opportunity to learn a > different way of thinking. > > However, and I make this comment without knowing the full extend of > which you did a presentation on, but perhaps we need to display a > broader view of blindness and present more independent concepts. Nothing > is wrong with sighted guide, and it's important sighted people who > assist with guiding us know the proper way, but what about explaining > the importance of independent mobility with a cane or dog, andhow this > is equal to traveling with sight? And what about demonstrating Braille > and how efficient it can be? As we educate, we want to instill the idea > of independence, and how we can be equally independent among our sighted > peers with little, to no, sighted assistance. I'm not suggesting blind > people never require a pair of eyes, and we should instruct people in > the best way in which to assist us, but I think we need to focus more on > our independent capabilities and how we can be equally efficient than on > how best to assist us such as sighted guide. > > I'm probably sparking controversy, but it goes back to the role we play > in educating and informing. We don't have to "water-down" our message > just because sighted people may be uncomfortable. We present ourselves > with diplomacy, but we don't have to cater to what makes them feel > better. The truth needs to be unleashed even if that makes people > uncomfortable. Independence truly is a state of mind, and society must > understand that a lack of sight doesn't equate to inferior or less > capable- it's just a different way to do most the same things. > > I mean no offense, and I'm glad to hear of people being active in their > communities, but I think what we present needs to focus on our best > interest and not on issues making those who aren't blind feel less > awkward and uncomfortable. It's our turn to assert and instill our goals > and concepts. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:59:21 -0500 > From: Joshua Lester > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I actually did a presentation at my college, for "Meet the Blind," month > where I showed everyone how to guide a blind person, and I taught them > the blindness courtesy rules, from the NFB. I'd encourage all students > here, to ask if you can do the same thing, at your colleges. Blessings, > Joshua > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 19:38:47 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 14:38:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] *Hot off the presses* The Student Slate (Special Fallissue!) Message-ID: <4eb6e266.4446340a.21dd.7a60@mx.google.com> Hi Darian and Slate Committee members, I have a suggestion for the Slate Committee. Can you guys send each issue of the Slate to the list? If this idea would be easier, you could also create an email list exclusively for the Slate. In other words, you could start an announce-only list (or a list where only certain people could post to it, namely the committee or one person on it, maybe only Karen) where subscribers would get each issue of the Slate emailed to them. You could post a subscribe link on the NABS site once the list is set up. If you're familiar with the email list for the Braille Monitor, that's what I'm talking about doing for the Slate. Alternatively, you could just send it to this list. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Darian Smith -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment Type: application/octet-stream Size: 304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brlsurfer at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 19:45:22 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 11:45:22 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] *Hot off the presses* The Student Slate (SpecialFallissue!) Message-ID: <4eb6e3de.8449340a.4d89.ffffd5cd@mx.google.com> But how will this help? I think it's just fine the way it is. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum Hi Arielle, You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, the difference between the public's stereotyping and discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, especially those members of the public who work directly with us or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; from one generation to their children, then passed on to those children's children, then to their children, and to their children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public directly effect us, as we then become the object of discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not discriminated against for the reason that there were misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple reason that they were different! During this time, I think the majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that all people are different, and that having a different skin color doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a different character than the beliefs which make people discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the misconceptions and discrimination have no justification whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, and the little discrimination that still exists is generally thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype against other people. Those are my thoughts. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman Great point, Joshua! I say again, though, it's because of a lack of education, in my opinion. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind people to think about. Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority groups in this country historically and in the present. More than that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination against other minority groups. Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I said about you being blind was very different from what you said about my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference here? I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get members of the public to see this? Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? I look forward to the discussion. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 20:58:21 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 15:58:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4eb6f509.4723340a.1cea.35ba@mx.google.com> Your message was also very well-written, Cortnie! I agree totally! Welcome to the list! ----- Original Message ----- From: Cortnie Ryan wrote: Wow! Arielle, I've been waiting to say something about this issue! I was listening to the National Quartet Convention, (Southern Gospel music's largest event,) when legendary singer/songwriter Bill Gaither made this comment, while introducing the next group. Gordon Mote, is his pianist, and he happens to be blind, so bear this in mind. Bill Gaither said this, while introducing the Southern Gospel trio, "Greater Vision." "Now, we go from lesser vision, (refering to Gordon,) to Greater Vision," (referring to the group.) It's okay to make fun of blindness, but if I told a joke against someone else, I'd be criticized. There's a double standard in the politically correct world. What's good for the goose is good for the gander! Blessings, Joshua On 10/31/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind people to think about. Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority groups in this country historically and in the present. More than that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination against other minority groups. Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I said about you being blind was very different from what you said about my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference here? I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get members of the public to see this? Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? I look forward to the discussion. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cortnie.ryan% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From brlsurfer at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 22:03:59 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 14:03:59 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] links on the pc and on the braillenote Message-ID: <4eb7045c.e426340a.1a92.ffffd5e7@mx.google.com> Hi, fellow federationists: I had two questions regarding e-mailed links. First, I have a Toshiba Netbook (PC) and would like to know, if someone e-mails you a link, how do you select it? Also, I wanted to know the same thing, with the Braille-Note Apex 9.2, if someone sends you a link how do you select it? Thanks. Vejas From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 22:39:54 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 17:39:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4eb70cd5.271e340a.60e1.ffffdd6b@mx.google.com> Oh=20my=20gosh,=20how=20ridiculous=20these=20people=20are!=20Wow,=20Andi,=20= what=20a=20 testament=20to=20the=20downright=20stupidity=20of=20some=20people!=20Well,= =20I=20 think=20we=20need=20to=20try=20and=20educate=20people,=20and=20if=20they=20= still=20don't=20 get=20it,=20they're=20either=20really=20stupid=20or=20really=20closed-minde= d,=20and=20 we=20can't=20control=20their=20thoughts=20after=20we've=20tried=20to=20educ= ate=20 them. Chris =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Andi"=20=20wrote: =20Hello,=20my=20name=20is=20Cortnie. =20This=20is=20an=20extremely=20interesting=20topic=20of=20discussion.=20=20= One=20in=20 which =20I've=20pondered=20multiple=20times.=20=20I'm=20relatively=20new=20on=20t= his=20 mailing=20list, =20and=20haven't=20quite=20had=20the=20nerve=20to=20put=20my=20thoughts=20a= nd=20opinions=20 down =20for=20all=20to=20see.=20=20Shy?=20I=20don't=20know.=20=20Anyway,=20on=20= with=20the=20show,=20I=20 guess. =20First=20off,=20I=20should=20say=20that=20the=20way=20this=20was=20brough= t=20to=20the=20 table=20was =20very=20well-said,=20and=20I=20could=20tell=20it's=20something=20that=20w= as=20thought=20 about =20at=20great=20length.=20=20Yes,=20forgive=20me=20for=20stating=20the=20ob= vious,=20but=20a=20 cause =20for=20controversy=20is=20definitely=20a=20possibility,=20but=20these=20i= ssues=20 need=20to =20be=20discussed=20in=20order=20to=20reach=20a=20potential=20and=20satisfa= ctory =20resolution.=20=20Mind=20you,=20this=20is=20only=20my=20opinion,=20but=20= it's=20an=20 opinion=20I =20feel=20very=20strongly=20about.=20=20No,=20I=20don't=20feel=20that=20it'= s=20different=20 at=20all. =20What=20you=20may=20feel=20as=20a=20compliment=20to=20another=20person,=20= may,=20 essentially, =20be=20a=20slap=20in=20their=20face.=20=20Saying=20that=20you=20do=20somet= hing=20well=20for=20 a=20blind =20person=20is=20no=20different=20than=20if=20you=20were=20to,=20as=20previ= ously=20 stated,=20do =20well=20for=20being=20a=20woman.=20=20Quite=20frankly,=20that=20sounds=20= sexist=20and =20degrading,=20no=20matter=20how=20well-meaning=20the=20comment=20was.=20= =20It's=20all=20 about =20the=20perception.=20=20What=20someone=20else=20may=20see=20as=20complime= ntary,=20you=20 may =20see=20as=20an=20insult.=20=20There=20have=20been=20many=20times=20those= =20types=20of=20 statements =20have=20been=20made=20to=20me.=20=20For=20instance,=20"Wow,=20I'm=20impre= ssed.=20=20You=20 do=20really =20well=20with=20crossing=20the=20street...=20=20for=20a=20blind=20person."= =20Yet,=20 comments =20like=20that=20aren't=20made=20to=20any=20other=20minority.=20=20A=20more= =20tactful=20 approach =20is=20taken.=20=20I'm=20unsure=20why=20it's=20that=20way,=20but=20I'm=20i= nclined=20to=20 believe =20that=20it's=20a=20lack=20of=20education=20as=20well=20as=20the=20fact=20= that=20most=20 people=20see =20blindness=20as=20a=20physical=20disability=20or,=20I=20really=20hate=20t= o=20use=20this=20 word, =20but=20a=20handicap.=20=20We=20as=20blind=20people=20may=20be=20a=20small= =20fraction=20of=20 the =20population,=20but=20blindness=20has=20been=20around=20as=20long=20as=20g= ays=20have,=20 or =20even=20unconventional=20religious=20practices=20and=20beliefs.=20=20Take= =20it=20 from =20someone=20who=20has=20struggled=20through=20a=20couple=20different=20sit= uations.=20=20 I =20found=20my=20experiences=20to=20be=20quite=20similar.=20=20Lots=20of=20s= tereotyping,=20 but =20different=20approaches=20were=20made=20when=20dealing=20with=20it.=20=20= We=20all=20 just=20want =20to=20be=20accepted=20and=20cared=20about=20for=20who=20we=20are=20on=20t= he=20inside.=20=20 That's =20all=20that=20should=20matter.=20=20Unfortunately,=20though,=20that's=20n= ot=20what=20 people =20see=20when=20they=20meet=20us.=20=20Our=20supposed=20disability=20oversh= adows=20our =20disposition=20and=20personality.=20=20It's=20the=20same=20with=20our=20s= uccess.=20=20 We=20can't =20possibly=20make=20it=20in=20the=20fast-track=20world=20of=20the=20all-mi= ghty=20 sighted. =20Note=20the=20sarcasm. =20Well,=20there's=20so=20much=20more=20I=20could=20write=20about=20this=20= subject,=20but=20 then =20it=20would=20just=20become=20even=20more=20of=20a=20rant.=20=20I'm=20try= ing=20to=20avoid=20 that. =20Once=20again,=20very=20well=20written. =20On=2010/31/11,=20Joshua=20Lester=20=20 wrote: =20Wow! =20Arielle,=20I've=20been=20waiting=20to=20say=20something=20about=20this=20= issue! =20I=20was=20listening=20to=20the=20National=20Quartet=20Convention,=20(Sou= thern=20 Gospel =20music's=20largest=20event,)=20when=20legendary=20singer/songwriter=20Bil= l=20 Gaither =20made=20this=20comment,=20while=20introducing=20the=20next=20group. =20Gordon=20Mote,=20is=20his=20pianist,=20and=20he=20happens=20to=20be=20bl= ind,=20so=20bear=20 this=20in =20mind. =20Bill=20Gaither=20said=20this,=20while=20introducing=20the=20Southern=20G= ospel=20 trio, =20"Greater=20Vision." =20"Now,=20we=20go=20from=20lesser=20vision,=20(refering=20to=20Gordon,)=20= to=20Greater =20Vision,"=20(referring=20to=20the=20group.) =20It's=20okay=20to=20make=20fun=20of=20blindness,=20but=20if=20I=20told=20= a=20joke=20against =20someone=20else,=20I'd=20be=20criticized. =20There's=20a=20double=20standard=20in=20the=20politically=20correct=20wor= ld. =20What's=20good=20for=20the=20goose=20is=20good=20for=20the=20gander! =20Blessings,=20Joshua =20On=2010/31/11,=20Arielle=20Silverman=20=20wrote: =20Warning-this=20topic=20has=20the=20potential=20to=20start=20a=20heated=20= debate,=20 but=20I =20also=20think=20it=20is=20an=20interesting=20and=20important=20topic=20fo= r=20us=20as=20 blind =20people=20to=20think=20about. =20Lately=20I=20have=20been=20thinking=20a=20lot=20about=20how=20the=20prob= lems=20faced=20 by=20the =20blind=20are=20similar=20to=20or=20different=20from=20those=20faced=20by= =20other=20 minority =20groups=20in=20this=20country=20historically=20and=20in=20the=20present.= =20=20More=20 than =20that,=20I=20have=20been=20thinking=20about=20how=20the=20general=20publi= c=20sees=20us=20 as=20a =20group=20in=20comparison=20to=20how=20they=20view=20other=20minority=20gr= oups.=20=20It=20 has =20struck=20me=20that=20oftentimes=20members=20of=20the=20general=20public= =20treat=20us=20 in =20discriminatory=20ways=20or=20stereotype=20us=20without=20even=20consider= ing=20 that =20this=20kind=20of=20treatment=20resembles=20stereotyping=20and=20discrimi= nation =20against=20other=20minority=20groups. =20Let=20me=20give=20a=20concrete=20example.=20=20In=20his=20book=20Freedom= =20for=20the=20 Blind,=20Jim =20Omvig=20writes=20of=20a=20time=20when=20he=20was=20directing=20a=20train= ing=20center=20 and=20a =20female=20staff=20member=20at=20the=20center=20commented,=20"You=20do=20y= our=20job=20so=20 well, =20sometimes=20I=20forget=20you're=20blind!"=20Seeing=20the=20teachable=20m= oment,=20 Mr. =20Omvig=20brought=20up=20this=20incident=20to=20his=20students=20during=20= a=20 philosophy =20class,=20and=20to=20illustrate=20his=20point=20he=20said=20to=20the=20wo= man,=20"You=20 are=20such =20a=20good=20teacher,=20sometimes=20I=20forget=20you're=20a=20woman!"=20Fr= om=20what=20I =20recall,=20the=20staff=20member=20got=20a=20bit=20upset=20and=20insisted= =20that=20"no,=20 what=20I =20said=20about=20you=20being=20blind=20was=20very=20different=20from=20wha= t=20you=20said=20 about =20my=20being=20a=20woman.=20=20I=20was=20just=20trying=20to=20give=20you=20= a=20compliment!" =20Now,=20as=20blind=20people=20most=20of=20us=20understand=20the=20problem= =20with=20her =20comment-the=20implication=20that=20being=20blind=20must=20not=20be=20ver= y=20good,=20 so =20someone=20who=20does=20a=20good=20job=20isn't=20like=20other=20blind=20p= eople.=20=20To=20 me=20this =20sounds=20like=20the=20same=20problem=20as=20making=20the=20analogous=20c= omment=20to=20 a =20woman-but=20she=20didn't=20see=20it=20that=20way.=20=20Why=20not?=20Is=20= there=20a=20 difference =20here? =20I=20have=20often=20been=20quite=20frustrated=20when=20people=20I=20know= =20and =20trust-friends=20or=20family=20members,=20who=20have=20very=20liberal=20v= iews=20 about =20race,=20would=20never=20utter=20a=20racial=20slur=20or=20support=20discr= imination =20against=20racial=20minorities,=20women,=20gays=20etc.=20=20who=20nonethe= less=20 have=20no =20qualms=20about=20saying=20negative=20things=20about=20blindness.=20=20Li= ke=20 saying=20blind =20people=20are=20all=20worse=20than=20the=20sighted=20at=20something,=20or= =20that=20 blind =20people=20are=20more=20dependent=20or=20less=20successful=20than=20the=20= sighted,=20 etc. =20They=20will=20sometimes=20say=20these=20things=20to=20my=20face=20and=20= don't=20 understand =20why=20I=20don't=20like=20to=20hear=20these=20things.=20=20Sometimes=20fa= mily=20members=20 will =20make=20comments=20comparing=20me=20favorably=20to=20other=20blind=20peop= le.=20=20 They=20think =20they=20are=20giving=20me=20compliments,=20and=20fail=20to=20understand=20= that=20I=20 don't =20want=20to=20hear=20negative=20things=20spoken=20about=20the=20blind=20as= =20a=20 collective. =20Yet=20these=20same=20people=20would=20never=20tell=20an=20African=20Amer= ican=20that=20 they =20are=20"smart=20for=20a=20black=20person"=20etc.=20=20I=20remember=20duri= ng=20the=20 protests =20against=20the=20Blindness=20film=20in=202008,=20I=20was=20perplexed=20by= =20how=20many=20 people =20just=20didn't=20get=20it,=20and=20didn't=20see=20what=20harm=20the=20fil= m=20could=20 do-and=20yet =20an=20analogous=20film=20where=20everyone=20developed=20black=20skin=20or= =20female =20anatomy=20with=20such=20dire=20consequences=20would=20never=20be=20accep= ted=20in=20 our =20modern=20society.=20=20And=20finally,=20in=20my=20research,=20I=20have=20= observed=20 that=20the =20college=20students=20in=20my=20experiments=20have=20no=20problem=20sayin= g=20on=20a=20 survey =20that=20the=20blind=20are=20much=20less=20competent=20than=20the=20sighte= d,=20yet=20 would =20never=20say=20such=20things=20directly=20about=20another=20minority=20gr= oup-in=20 fact, =20lots=20of=20fancy=20indirect=20measures=20have=20been=20developed=20to=20= tap=20those =20attitudes=20because=20people=20nowadays=20are=20so=20unwilling=20to=20ad= mit=20 their =20prejudices,=20unless=20it's=20toward=20the=20blind. =20So,=20what's=20up?=20Are=20stereotypes=20about=20the=20blind=20somehow=20= more=20 accurate =20than=20stereotypes=20about=20ethnic=20minorities?=20Is=20discrimination= =20 against =20the=20blind=20somehow=20more=20justified?=20Or=20is=20it=20just=20that=20= we=20are=20such=20 a =20small=20group=20that=20we=20haven't=20developed=20the=20same=20history,= =20had=20the=20 same =20scale=20of=20civil=20rights=20activism,=20etc.=20=20to=20raise=20people'= s=20 awareness?=20Do =20you=20guys=20think=20we=20deserve=20the=20same=20considerations=20as=20o= ther=20 minorities =20in=20this=20country?=20If=20not,=20am=20I=20missing=20something?=20If=20= so,=20how=20do=20 we=20get =20members=20of=20the=20public=20to=20see=20this? =20Also,=20as=20an=20aside,=20I'm=20curious=20to=20hear=20from=20those=20of= =20you=20who=20are=20 "dual =20minorities"=20being=20both=20blind=20and=20a=20member=20of=20a=20minorit= y=20group=20in=20 this =20country=20(ethnicity-wise,=20or=20a=20different=20group=20like=20GLBT,=20= uncommon =20religious=20beliefs=20etc.)=20How=20do=20you=20think=20your=20two=20iden= tities=20are =20similar?=20Different?=20Do=20you=20feel=20they=20interact=20with=20one=20= another? =20I=20look=20forward=20to=20the=20discussion. =20Best, =20Arielle =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cortnie.ryan% 40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.demp sey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 22:40:02 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 17:40:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Introducing the Learning Ally Audiobook Manager Message-ID: <4eb70cdc.271e340a.60e1.ffffdd72@mx.google.com> ---- Original Message ------ From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" References: <4eb437cf.86962a0a.36f4.ffffc7b8SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3B24C1409ACC459C9258202B8C84F4F5@OwnerPC> good idea. A presentation is good way of advocacy. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 6:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups I actually did a presentation at my college, for "Meet the Blind," month where I showed everyone how to guide a blind person, and I taught them the blindness courtesy rules, from the NFB. I'd encourage all students here, to ask if you can do the same thing, at your colleges. Blessings, Joshua On 11/4/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this > discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. > As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when > African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white > Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race > science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it > to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has > been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, > psychologists have identified specific factors in the social > environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on > standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in > intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded > in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, > and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to > perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because > African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this > stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. > As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted > public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the > inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we > have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social > environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of > instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of > accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the > condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our > lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority > of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally > successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social > conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now > understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable > as whites if the social environment supports their success. > We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be > difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted > people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our > culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people > assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why > literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights > the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, > and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to > teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People > have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some > mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about > the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, > and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these > beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind > people function requires some creative thinking and mental > flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are > willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on > board for the environmental modifications we need to be > equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes > will give us equal opportunity. > Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start > standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to > accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant > behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is > that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be > misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other > minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or > outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an > illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness > is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really > being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I > often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and > would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled > me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a > b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their > behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I > definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and > directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way > that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be > interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: >> David, >> >> With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us >> for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we >> say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we >> somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message >> which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or >> ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those >> of us whom such logic doesn't work for? >> >> I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't >> know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I >> started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling >> upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I >> started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to >> whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. >> Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else >> go nuts. *grin* >> >> Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that >> what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be >> malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or >> so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so >> until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're >> harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I >> hope the analogy is not too remote. >> >> My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted >> when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be >> treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of >> the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the >> sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and >> that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a >> large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, >> why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal >> lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a >> lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). >> >> Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we >> can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop >> excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted >> thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is >> realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change >> to happen and take the steps to start it. >> >> Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we >> need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we >> still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out >> of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have >> cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher >> faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current >> generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the >> sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. >> anyone with me? >> >> The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to >> communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked >> about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through >> education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of >> going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who >> specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their >> experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the >> Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the >> Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help >> groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; >> we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB >> convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; >> maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the >> Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train >> as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from >> affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter >> groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of >> people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do >> so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. >> >> Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, >> and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to >> need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from >> anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we >> could come up with some crazy way to get it going. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> Arielle: >> >>> I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the >>> biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the >>> blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could >>> do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which >>> they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. >> >>> I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! >> >>> Dave >> >>> At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: >>>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I >>>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind >>>> people to think about. >>>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the >>>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority >>>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More than >>>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a >>>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has >>>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in >>>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that >>>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>>> against other minority groups. >>>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim >>>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a >>>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, >>>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. >>>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy >>>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such >>>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I >>>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said about >>>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so >>>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this >>>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference >>>> here? >>>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about >>>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no >>>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind >>>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. >>>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand >>>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will >>>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think >>>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't >>>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. >>>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they >>>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests >>>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people >>>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet >>>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our >>>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the >>>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey >>>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would >>>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, >>>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate >>>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against >>>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a >>>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same >>>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do >>>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities >>>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get >>>> members of the public to see this? >>>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual >>>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this >>>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>>> I look forward to the discussion. >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 6 23:39:42 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:39:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] *Hot off the presses* The Student Slate (SpecialFallissue!) In-Reply-To: <4eb6e266.4446340a.21dd.7a60@mx.google.com> References: <4eb6e266.4446340a.21dd.7a60@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, Those not on this list can still download the slate from the nabs site; so I don't see a need for a slate only list. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 2:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] *Hot off the presses* The Student Slate (SpecialFallissue!) Hi Darian and Slate Committee members, I have a suggestion for the Slate Committee. Can you guys send each issue of the Slate to the list? If this idea would be easier, you could also create an email list exclusively for the Slate. In other words, you could start an announce-only list (or a list where only certain people could post to it, namely the committee or one person on it, maybe only Karen) where subscribers would get each issue of the Slate emailed to them. You could post a subscribe link on the NABS site once the list is set up. If you're familiar with the email list for the Braille Monitor, that's what I'm talking about doing for the Slate. Alternatively, you could just send it to this list. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Darian Smith References: <4eb70cdc.271e340a.60e1.ffffdd72@mx.google.com> Message-ID: has anyone used the new manager? Is it easier to use? I've not tried in a long time, so I'm not sure. I just recall the old download manager was a little finiky and sometimes I did not know where it was putting my books. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 5:40 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org ; blindtlk at nfbnet.org ; nfbmd at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Introducing the Learning Ally Audiobook Manager ---- Original Message ------ From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" Hi list, I'd like your help with a quick Excel JAWS question. I'm working with an Excel file that has 100 sheets in it. I can use Ctrl-PageDown and Ctrl-PageUp to move from sheet to sheet. However, I was wondering how do I select all the sheets at once? I need to make a formatting change to all 100 sheets and it'd be easier to just select all 100 sheets and make the change once. Thanks a lot. Phil From Computerguy125 at aol.com Mon Nov 7 02:51:09 2011 From: Computerguy125 at aol.com (Computerguy125 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 21:51:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nabs-l] Introducing the Learning Ally Audiobook Manager Message-ID: <22cc.2488fa01.3be8a19d@aol.com> I've used it. In fact I just downloaded it tonight. I love it its so much better then that download manager. that download manager would always quit in the middle of downloads so. This works much much better. In a message dated 11/6/2011 5:47:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, bookwormahb at earthlink.net writes: has anyone used the new manager? Is it easier to use? I've not tried in a long time, so I'm not sure. I just recall the old download manager was a little finiky and sometimes I did not know where it was putting my books. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 5:40 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org ; blindtlk at nfbnet.org ; nfbmd at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Introducing the Learning Ally Audiobook Manager ---- Original Message ------ From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" Hi Arielle, > You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good > discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, > the difference between the public's stereotyping and > discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups > is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about > us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions > about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the > public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not > all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, > especially those members of the public who work directly with us > or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know > from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that > these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; > from one generation to their children, then passed on to those > children's children, then to their children, and to their > children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long > time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes > easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These > misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of > the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and > discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public > directly effect us, as we then become the object of > discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups > don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. > Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do > and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to > their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white > piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be > employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not > discriminated against for the reason that there were > misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms > of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple > reason that they were different! During this time, I think the > majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that > all people are different, and that having a different skin color > doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about > blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a > different character than the beliefs which make people > discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that > the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us > to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth > about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people > discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about > minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, > sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue > stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype > or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based > on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the > misconceptions and discrimination have no justification > whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright > discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because > they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact > that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, > we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and > advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that > many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We > have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do > and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our > sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, > and the little discrimination that still exists is generally > thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public > doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, > simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK > with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to > educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by > example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype > against other people. Those are my thoughts. > Chris > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Arielle Silverman To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, > but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as > blind > people to think about. > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by > the > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other > minority > groups in this country historically and in the present. More > than > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us > as a > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It > has > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us > in > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering > that > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination > against other minority groups. > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the > Blind, Jim > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center > and a > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so > well, > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, > Mr. > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a > philosophy > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are > such > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, > what I > said about you being blind was very different from what you said > about > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, > so > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me > this > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a > difference > here? > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views > about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have > no > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying > blind > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, > etc. > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't > understand > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members > will > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They > think > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I > don't > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a > collective. > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that > they > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the > protests > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many > people > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could > do-and yet > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in > our > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed > that the > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a > survey > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet > would > never say such things directly about another minority group-in > fact, > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more > accurate > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination > against > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such > a > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the > same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's > awareness? Do > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other > minorities > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we > get > members of the public to see this? > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are > "dual > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in > this > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > I look forward to the discussion. > Best, > Arielle > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 7 04:40:09 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:40:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Introducing the Learning Ally Audiobook Manager In-Reply-To: <22cc.2488fa01.3be8a19d@aol.com> References: <22cc.2488fa01.3be8a19d@aol.com> Message-ID: I had that issue too and thought it was just me; it would quit downloading the book. Glad to know its improved. -----Original Message----- From: Computerguy125 at aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 9:51 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Introducing the Learning Ally Audiobook Manager I've used it. In fact I just downloaded it tonight. I love it its so much better then that download manager. that download manager would always quit in the middle of downloads so. This works much much better. In a message dated 11/6/2011 5:47:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, bookwormahb at earthlink.net writes: has anyone used the new manager? Is it easier to use? I've not tried in a long time, so I'm not sure. I just recall the old download manager was a little finiky and sometimes I did not know where it was putting my books. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 5:40 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org ; blindtlk at nfbnet.org ; nfbmd at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Introducing the Learning Ally Audiobook Manager ---- Original Message ------ From: "Learning Ally, formerly RFB&D" References: <4eb7551f.43b32a0a.1e80.5795SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi all. I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the blind speak and advocate for themselves. I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how offensive that comment was to me. When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. :) The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with others, they understand and don't get too offended. This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading about all your thoughts and experiences. On 11/6/11, Jedi wrote: > Chris, > > People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their > capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological > science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to > White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that > African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think > that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And > don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go > through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as > misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive > and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative > judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why > people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that > kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude > socially speaking. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Hi Arielle, > >> You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good >> discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, >> the difference between the public's stereotyping and >> discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups >> is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about >> us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions >> about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the >> public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not >> all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, >> especially those members of the public who work directly with us >> or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know >> from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that >> these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; >> from one generation to their children, then passed on to those >> children's children, then to their children, and to their >> children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long >> time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes >> easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These >> misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of >> the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and >> discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public >> directly effect us, as we then become the object of >> discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups >> don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. >> Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do >> and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to >> their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white >> piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be >> employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not >> discriminated against for the reason that there were >> misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms >> of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple >> reason that they were different! During this time, I think the >> majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that >> all people are different, and that having a different skin color >> doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about >> blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a >> different character than the beliefs which make people >> discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that >> the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us >> to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth >> about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people >> discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about >> minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, >> sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue >> stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype >> or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based >> on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the >> misconceptions and discrimination have no justification >> whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright >> discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because >> they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact >> that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, >> we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and >> advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that >> many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We >> have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do >> and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our >> sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, >> and the little discrimination that still exists is generally >> thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public >> doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, >> simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK >> with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to >> educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by >> example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype >> against other people. Those are my thoughts. > >> Chris > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Arielle Silverman > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Date sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > >> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, >> but I >> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as >> blind >> people to think about. >> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by >> the >> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other >> minority >> groups in this country historically and in the present. More >> than >> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us >> as a >> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It >> has >> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us >> in >> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering >> that >> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >> against other minority groups. >> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the >> Blind, Jim >> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center >> and a >> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so >> well, >> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, >> Mr. >> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a >> philosophy >> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are >> such >> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, >> what I >> said about you being blind was very different from what you said >> about >> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, >> so >> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me >> this >> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a >> difference >> here? >> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views >> about >> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have >> no >> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying >> blind >> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, >> etc. >> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't >> understand >> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members >> will >> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They >> think >> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I >> don't >> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a >> collective. >> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that >> they >> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the >> protests >> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many >> people >> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could >> do-and yet >> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in >> our >> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed >> that the >> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a >> survey >> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet >> would >> never say such things directly about another minority group-in >> fact, >> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more >> accurate >> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination >> against >> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such >> a >> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the >> same >> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's >> awareness? Do >> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other >> minorities >> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we >> get >> members of the public to see this? >> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are >> "dual >> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in >> this >> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >> I look forward to the discussion. >> Best, >> Arielle > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding Eyes for the Blind "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 05:50:40 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 00:50:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4eb7551f.43b32a0a.1e80.5795SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: hey how did you teach your dog to stop when people grab hold of you? I want to teach that one to mine when I get one. Great idea thanks. On 11/7/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: > Hi all. > > I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the > big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are > always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we > are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am > speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. > > I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. > White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks > without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the > blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are > treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the > blind speak and advocate for themselves. > > I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than > educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful > because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, > and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor > of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that > I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier > that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how > offensive that comment was to me. > > When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate > someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a > smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the > time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. > :) > > The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for > advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I > prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an > accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She > knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing > competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought > it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the > piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I > could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid > that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me > around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. > > Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did > not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people > grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull > me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When > I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because > it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with > others, they understand and don't get too offended. > > This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading > about all your thoughts and experiences. > > On 11/6/11, Jedi wrote: >> Chris, >> >> People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their >> capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological >> science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to >> White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that >> African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think >> that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And >> don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go >> through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as >> misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive >> and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative >> judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why >> people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that >> kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude >> socially speaking. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> Hi Arielle, >> >>> You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good >>> discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, >>> the difference between the public's stereotyping and >>> discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups >>> is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about >>> us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions >>> about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the >>> public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not >>> all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, >>> especially those members of the public who work directly with us >>> or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know >>> from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that >>> these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; >>> from one generation to their children, then passed on to those >>> children's children, then to their children, and to their >>> children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long >>> time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes >>> easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These >>> misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of >>> the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and >>> discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public >>> directly effect us, as we then become the object of >>> discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups >>> don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. >>> Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do >>> and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to >>> their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white >>> piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be >>> employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not >>> discriminated against for the reason that there were >>> misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms >>> of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple >>> reason that they were different! During this time, I think the >>> majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that >>> all people are different, and that having a different skin color >>> doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about >>> blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a >>> different character than the beliefs which make people >>> discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that >>> the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us >>> to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth >>> about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people >>> discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about >>> minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, >>> sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue >>> stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype >>> or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based >>> on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the >>> misconceptions and discrimination have no justification >>> whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright >>> discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because >>> they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact >>> that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, >>> we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and >>> advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that >>> many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We >>> have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do >>> and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our >>> sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, >>> and the little discrimination that still exists is generally >>> thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public >>> doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, >>> simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK >>> with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to >>> educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by >>> example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype >>> against other people. Those are my thoughts. >> >>> Chris >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >> >>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, >>> but I >>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as >>> blind >>> people to think about. >>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by >>> the >>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other >>> minority >>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More >>> than >>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us >>> as a >>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It >>> has >>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us >>> in >>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering >>> that >>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>> against other minority groups. >>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the >>> Blind, Jim >>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center >>> and a >>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so >>> well, >>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, >>> Mr. >>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a >>> philosophy >>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are >>> such >>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, >>> what I >>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said >>> about >>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, >>> so >>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me >>> this >>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a >>> difference >>> here? >>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views >>> about >>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have >>> no >>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying >>> blind >>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, >>> etc. >>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't >>> understand >>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members >>> will >>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They >>> think >>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I >>> don't >>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a >>> collective. >>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that >>> they >>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the >>> protests >>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many >>> people >>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could >>> do-and yet >>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in >>> our >>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed >>> that the >>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a >>> survey >>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet >>> would >>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in >>> fact, >>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more >>> accurate >>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination >>> against >>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such >>> a >>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the >>> same >>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's >>> awareness? Do >>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other >>> minorities >>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we >>> get >>> members of the public to see this? >>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are >>> "dual >>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in >>> this >>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>> I look forward to the discussion. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding > Eyes for the Blind > > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From philso1003 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 06:14:13 2011 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Philip S) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 01:14:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4eb7551f.43b32a0a.1e80.5795SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I wonder if a society goes through different stages of "acceptance" for a minority group within that society. And if so, whether "you're pretty smart for a blind person" is one of those stages, just like in some other countries a few decades ago, people did make comments such as "you are pretty smart for a women", but now these countries have much better gender equity. The optimistic news is that advancements made by the other minority groups show that indeed this change can happen. The question is what are these stages, and what different strategies and tactics did other minority groups deploy at different stages to moved the society forward? Since Arielle used women as one of the comparison example, I should mention that the World Economic Forum just issued its flatest Global Gender Gap Ranking Report last week. The world ranking is a de facto illustration of different stages of gender equity in different countries, and perhaps the blind community can compare ourselves to these countries and see what stage we are at now, and what are some of the best practices women in those countries are using to move their societies to the next stage of acceptance and inclusion, as well as countries where the wrong tactics were used and hence are still stuck at the same stages for a decade. On 11/7/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: > Hi all. > > I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the > big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are > always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we > are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am > speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. > > I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. > White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks > without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the > blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are > treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the > blind speak and advocate for themselves. > > I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than > educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful > because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, > and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor > of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that > I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier > that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how > offensive that comment was to me. > > When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate > someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a > smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the > time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. > :) > > The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for > advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I > prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an > accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She > knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing > competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought > it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the > piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I > could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid > that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me > around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. > > Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did > not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people > grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull > me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When > I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because > it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with > others, they understand and don't get too offended. > > This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading > about all your thoughts and experiences. > > On 11/6/11, Jedi wrote: >> Chris, >> >> People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their >> capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological >> science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to >> White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that >> African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think >> that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And >> don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go >> through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as >> misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive >> and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative >> judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why >> people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that >> kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude >> socially speaking. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> Hi Arielle, >> >>> You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good >>> discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, >>> the difference between the public's stereotyping and >>> discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups >>> is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about >>> us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions >>> about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the >>> public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not >>> all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, >>> especially those members of the public who work directly with us >>> or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know >>> from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that >>> these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; >>> from one generation to their children, then passed on to those >>> children's children, then to their children, and to their >>> children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long >>> time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes >>> easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These >>> misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of >>> the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and >>> discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public >>> directly effect us, as we then become the object of >>> discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups >>> don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. >>> Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do >>> and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to >>> their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white >>> piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be >>> employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not >>> discriminated against for the reason that there were >>> misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms >>> of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple >>> reason that they were different! During this time, I think the >>> majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that >>> all people are different, and that having a different skin color >>> doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about >>> blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a >>> different character than the beliefs which make people >>> discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that >>> the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us >>> to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth >>> about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people >>> discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about >>> minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, >>> sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue >>> stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype >>> or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based >>> on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the >>> misconceptions and discrimination have no justification >>> whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright >>> discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because >>> they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact >>> that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, >>> we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and >>> advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that >>> many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We >>> have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do >>> and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our >>> sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, >>> and the little discrimination that still exists is generally >>> thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public >>> doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, >>> simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK >>> with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to >>> educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by >>> example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype >>> against other people. Those are my thoughts. >> >>> Chris >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >> >>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, >>> but I >>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as >>> blind >>> people to think about. >>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by >>> the >>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other >>> minority >>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More >>> than >>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us >>> as a >>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It >>> has >>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us >>> in >>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering >>> that >>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>> against other minority groups. >>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the >>> Blind, Jim >>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center >>> and a >>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so >>> well, >>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, >>> Mr. >>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a >>> philosophy >>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are >>> such >>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, >>> what I >>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said >>> about >>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, >>> so >>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me >>> this >>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a >>> difference >>> here? >>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views >>> about >>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have >>> no >>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying >>> blind >>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, >>> etc. >>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't >>> understand >>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members >>> will >>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They >>> think >>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I >>> don't >>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a >>> collective. >>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that >>> they >>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the >>> protests >>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many >>> people >>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could >>> do-and yet >>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in >>> our >>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed >>> that the >>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a >>> survey >>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet >>> would >>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in >>> fact, >>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more >>> accurate >>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination >>> against >>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such >>> a >>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the >>> same >>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's >>> awareness? Do >>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other >>> minorities >>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we >>> get >>> members of the public to see this? >>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are >>> "dual >>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in >>> this >>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>> I look forward to the discussion. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding > Eyes for the Blind > > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > From trising at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 7 14:55:06 2011 From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 09:55:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Jordyn Castor Message-ID: <50F66BF38F6943D78011DC8B903DC0C2@btggjgjwgas> Dear Jordyn Castor: Will you please send me your email address and current contact information? This is Terri Wilcox, the Secretary for the National Federation of the Blind of Michigan. Since you are the new Michigan Association of Blind Students President, I would like your contact information. It will be a privilege working with you in the future. Sincerely, Terri Wilcox Secretary, National Federation of the Blind of Michigan Ann Arbor Chapter President -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 1377 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 15:35:15 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:35:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Message-ID: From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 15:40:30 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:40:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? Message-ID: Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I wanted to get some ideas from you all. How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the audience, and what format they are in? Thhank you for any input you can provide. ~Jewel From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 16:05:43 2011 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (Alena Roberts) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 08:05:43 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AFC3DA2-8524-4155-B2F2-02E283D4DA5E@gmail.com> I know that ACB radio advertises about products and services for the blind. Alena On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Jewel wrote: > Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion > that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The > assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on > television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I > wanted to get some ideas from you all. > > How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their > audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an > example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how > did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you > give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the > audience, and what format they are in? > > Thhank you for any input you can provide. > > ~Jewel > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 17:12:57 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 12:12:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? In-Reply-To: <7AFC3DA2-8524-4155-B2F2-02E283D4DA5E@gmail.com> References: <7AFC3DA2-8524-4155-B2F2-02E283D4DA5E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Where do I find ACB Radio? On 11/7/11, Alena Roberts wrote: > I know that ACB radio advertises about products and services for the blind. > > Alena > On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Jewel wrote: > >> Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion >> that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The >> assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on >> television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I >> wanted to get some ideas from you all. >> >> How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their >> audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an >> example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how >> did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you >> give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the >> audience, and what format they are in? >> >> Thhank you for any input you can provide. >> >> ~Jewel >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 17:22:00 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 12:22:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? In-Reply-To: References: <7AFC3DA2-8524-4155-B2F2-02E283D4DA5E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jewel, They have a website, acbradio.org I think it is. You'd probably want the mainstream channel for your purposes, although there are several. Mainstream, which has like shows and stuff, cafe, which deals with music, interactive, which is live radio, and treasure trove, which deals with old time radio. I think there's one more but I forget what it is. HTH! Best, Josh On 11/7/11, Jewel wrote: > Where do I find ACB Radio? > > On 11/7/11, Alena Roberts wrote: >> I know that ACB radio advertises about products and services for the >> blind. >> >> Alena >> On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Jewel wrote: >> >>> Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion >>> that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The >>> assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on >>> television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I >>> wanted to get some ideas from you all. >>> >>> How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their >>> audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an >>> example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how >>> did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you >>> give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the >>> audience, and what format they are in? >>> >>> Thhank you for any input you can provide. >>> >>> ~Jewel >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Sent via gmail.com Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com Skype: joshgregory93 From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Mon Nov 7 17:31:33 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 12:31:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: 7051f9af-409b-425f-ad23-5661888c2e40@samobile.net Julie, I thought it was interesting how you said you keep a smile in place while engaging in firm politeness. May I ask you something about that? Why would you smile when you're feeling destressed by the treatment you're receiving? If you're not happy, you don't have to smile; it's okay to demonstrate that you're offended through your body language, especially if that's how you feel. As to your onstage situation with that random person, that's a tough one. You're in front of all these people and you don't want to make a scene. I guess i might have leaned over and whispered something like "will you please not do that? I can find the piano and face the audience myself. You just worry about getting yourself situated." The audience would have no clue what you were saying and would probably assume you were saying something about the piece you're about to perform. It's too bad she didn't get it after you tried talking to her about it. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi all. > I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the > big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are > always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we > are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am > speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. > I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. > White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks > without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the > blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are > treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the > blind speak and advocate for themselves. > I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than > educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful > because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, > and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor > of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that > I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier > that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how > offensive that comment was to me. > When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate > someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a > smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the > time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. > :) > The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for > advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I > prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an > accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She > knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing > competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought > it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the > piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I > could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid > that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me > around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. > Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did > not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people > grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull > me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When > I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because > it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with > others, they understand and don't get too offended. > This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading > about all your thoughts and experiences. > On 11/6/11, Jedi wrote: >> Chris, >> People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their >> capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological >> science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to >> White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that >> African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think >> that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And >> don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go >> through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as >> misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive >> and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative >> judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why >> people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that >> kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude >> socially speaking. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> Hi Arielle, >>> You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good >>> discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, >>> the difference between the public's stereotyping and >>> discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups >>> is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about >>> us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions >>> about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the >>> public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not >>> all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, >>> especially those members of the public who work directly with us >>> or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know >>> from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that >>> these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; >>> from one generation to their children, then passed on to those >>> children's children, then to their children, and to their >>> children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long >>> time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes >>> easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These >>> misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of >>> the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and >>> discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public >>> directly effect us, as we then become the object of >>> discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups >>> don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. >>> Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do >>> and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to >>> their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white >>> piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be >>> employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not >>> discriminated against for the reason that there were >>> misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms >>> of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple >>> reason that they were different! During this time, I think the >>> majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that >>> all people are different, and that having a different skin color >>> doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about >>> blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a >>> different character than the beliefs which make people >>> discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that >>> the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us >>> to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth >>> about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people >>> discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about >>> minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, >>> sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue >>> stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype >>> or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based >>> on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the >>> misconceptions and discrimination have no justification >>> whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright >>> discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because >>> they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact >>> that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, >>> we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and >>> advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that >>> many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We >>> have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do >>> and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our >>> sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, >>> and the little discrimination that still exists is generally >>> thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public >>> doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, >>> simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK >>> with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to >>> educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by >>> example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype >>> against other people. Those are my thoughts. >>> Chris >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, >>> but I >>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as >>> blind >>> people to think about. >>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by >>> the >>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other >>> minority >>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More >>> than >>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us >>> as a >>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It >>> has >>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us >>> in >>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering >>> that >>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>> against other minority groups. >>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the >>> Blind, Jim >>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center >>> and a >>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so >>> well, >>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, >>> Mr. >>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a >>> philosophy >>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are >>> such >>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, >>> what I >>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said >>> about >>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, >>> so >>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me >>> this >>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a >>> difference >>> here? >>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views >>> about >>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have >>> no >>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying >>> blind >>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, >>> etc. >>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't >>> understand >>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members >>> will >>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They >>> think >>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I >>> don't >>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a >>> collective. >>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that >>> they >>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the >>> protests >>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many >>> people >>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could >>> do-and yet >>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in >>> our >>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed >>> that the >>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a >>> survey >>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet >>> would >>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in >>> fact, >>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more >>> accurate >>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination >>> against >>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such >>> a >>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the >>> same >>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's >>> awareness? Do >>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other >>> minorities >>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we >>> get >>> members of the public to see this? >>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are >>> "dual >>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in >>> this >>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>> I look forward to the discussion. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- > Julie McG > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding > Eyes for the Blind > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Mon Nov 7 17:32:10 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 12:32:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: 9babfca3-cfad-4dd1-bd24-c66683bea208@samobile.net Yeah, wish I could teach my cane that trick. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > hey how did you teach your dog to stop when people grab hold of you? I > want to teach that one to mine when I get one. Great idea thanks. > On 11/7/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Hi all. >> I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the >> big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are >> always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we >> are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am >> speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. >> I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. >> White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks >> without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the >> blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are >> treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the >> blind speak and advocate for themselves. >> I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than >> educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful >> because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, >> and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor >> of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that >> I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier >> that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how >> offensive that comment was to me. >> When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate >> someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a >> smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the >> time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. >> :) >> The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for >> advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I >> prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an >> accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She >> knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing >> competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought >> it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the >> piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I >> could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid >> that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me >> around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. >> Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did >> not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people >> grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull >> me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When >> I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because >> it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with >> others, they understand and don't get too offended. >> This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading >> about all your thoughts and experiences. >> On 11/6/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Chris, >>> People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their >>> capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological >>> science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to >>> White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that >>> African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think >>> that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And >>> don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go >>> through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as >>> misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive >>> and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative >>> judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why >>> people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that >>> kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude >>> socially speaking. >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> Original message: >>>> Hi Arielle, >>>> You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good >>>> discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, >>>> the difference between the public's stereotyping and >>>> discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups >>>> is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about >>>> us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions >>>> about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the >>>> public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not >>>> all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, >>>> especially those members of the public who work directly with us >>>> or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know >>>> from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that >>>> these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; >>>> from one generation to their children, then passed on to those >>>> children's children, then to their children, and to their >>>> children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long >>>> time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes >>>> easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These >>>> misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of >>>> the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and >>>> discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public >>>> directly effect us, as we then become the object of >>>> discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups >>>> don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. >>>> Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do >>>> and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to >>>> their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white >>>> piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be >>>> employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not >>>> discriminated against for the reason that there were >>>> misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms >>>> of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple >>>> reason that they were different! During this time, I think the >>>> majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that >>>> all people are different, and that having a different skin color >>>> doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about >>>> blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a >>>> different character than the beliefs which make people >>>> discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that >>>> the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us >>>> to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth >>>> about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people >>>> discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about >>>> minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, >>>> sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue >>>> stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype >>>> or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based >>>> on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the >>>> misconceptions and discrimination have no justification >>>> whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright >>>> discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because >>>> they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact >>>> that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, >>>> we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and >>>> advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that >>>> many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We >>>> have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do >>>> and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our >>>> sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, >>>> and the little discrimination that still exists is generally >>>> thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public >>>> doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, >>>> simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK >>>> with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to >>>> educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by >>>> example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype >>>> against other people. Those are my thoughts. >>>> Chris >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Date sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >>>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, >>>> but I >>>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as >>>> blind >>>> people to think about. >>>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by >>>> the >>>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other >>>> minority >>>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More >>>> than >>>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us >>>> as a >>>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It >>>> has >>>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us >>>> in >>>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering >>>> that >>>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>>> against other minority groups. >>>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the >>>> Blind, Jim >>>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center >>>> and a >>>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so >>>> well, >>>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, >>>> Mr. >>>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a >>>> philosophy >>>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are >>>> such >>>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, >>>> what I >>>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said >>>> about >>>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, >>>> so >>>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me >>>> this >>>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a >>>> difference >>>> here? >>>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views >>>> about >>>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have >>>> no >>>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying >>>> blind >>>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, >>>> etc. >>>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't >>>> understand >>>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members >>>> will >>>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They >>>> think >>>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I >>>> don't >>>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a >>>> collective. >>>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that >>>> they >>>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the >>>> protests >>>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many >>>> people >>>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could >>>> do-and yet >>>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in >>>> our >>>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed >>>> that the >>>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a >>>> survey >>>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet >>>> would >>>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in >>>> fact, >>>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more >>>> accurate >>>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination >>>> against >>>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such >>>> a >>>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the >>>> same >>>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's >>>> awareness? Do >>>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other >>>> minorities >>>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we >>>> get >>>> members of the public to see this? >>>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are >>>> "dual >>>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in >>>> this >>>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>>> I look forward to the discussion. >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>> m%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> -- >> Julie McG >> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >> Eyes for the Blind >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- > Lea Williams > Phone; > 704-732-4470 > Skipe; > Lea.williams738 > Facebook > http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Mon Nov 7 17:33:50 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 12:33:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: c818fee7-7850-400a-a984-ec98c1bc54a8@samobile.net That's exactly what i'm interested in. I'm getting this book on encounter groups in the next week or two. I'll let you know how it goes as I read it. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > I wonder if a society goes through different stages of "acceptance" > for a minority group within that society. And if so, whether "you're > pretty smart for a blind person" is one of those stages, just like in > some other countries a few decades ago, people did make comments such > as "you are pretty smart for a women", but now these countries have > much better gender equity. The optimistic news is that advancements > made by the other minority groups show that indeed this change can > happen. The question is what are these stages, and what different > strategies and tactics did other minority groups deploy at different > stages to moved the society forward? Since Arielle used women as one > of the comparison example, I should mention that the World Economic > Forum just issued its flatest Global Gender Gap Ranking Report last > week. The world ranking is a de facto illustration of different stages > of gender equity in different countries, and perhaps the blind > community can compare ourselves to these countries and see what stage > we are at now, and what are some of the best practices women in those > countries are using to move their societies to the next stage of > acceptance and inclusion, as well as countries where the wrong tactics > were used and hence are still stuck at the same stages for a decade. > On 11/7/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Hi all. >> I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the >> big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are >> always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we >> are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am >> speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. >> I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. >> White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks >> without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the >> blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are >> treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the >> blind speak and advocate for themselves. >> I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than >> educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful >> because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, >> and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor >> of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that >> I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier >> that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how >> offensive that comment was to me. >> When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate >> someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a >> smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the >> time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. >> :) >> The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for >> advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I >> prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an >> accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She >> knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing >> competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought >> it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the >> piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I >> could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid >> that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me >> around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. >> Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did >> not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people >> grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull >> me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When >> I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because >> it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with >> others, they understand and don't get too offended. >> This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading >> about all your thoughts and experiences. >> On 11/6/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Chris, >>> People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their >>> capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological >>> science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to >>> White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that >>> African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think >>> that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And >>> don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go >>> through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as >>> misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive >>> and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative >>> judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why >>> people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that >>> kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude >>> socially speaking. >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> Original message: >>>> Hi Arielle, >>>> You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good >>>> discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, >>>> the difference between the public's stereotyping and >>>> discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups >>>> is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about >>>> us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions >>>> about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the >>>> public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not >>>> all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, >>>> especially those members of the public who work directly with us >>>> or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know >>>> from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that >>>> these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; >>>> from one generation to their children, then passed on to those >>>> children's children, then to their children, and to their >>>> children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long >>>> time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes >>>> easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These >>>> misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of >>>> the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and >>>> discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public >>>> directly effect us, as we then become the object of >>>> discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups >>>> don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. >>>> Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do >>>> and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to >>>> their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white >>>> piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be >>>> employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not >>>> discriminated against for the reason that there were >>>> misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms >>>> of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple >>>> reason that they were different! During this time, I think the >>>> majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that >>>> all people are different, and that having a different skin color >>>> doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about >>>> blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a >>>> different character than the beliefs which make people >>>> discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that >>>> the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us >>>> to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth >>>> about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people >>>> discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about >>>> minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, >>>> sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue >>>> stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype >>>> or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based >>>> on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the >>>> misconceptions and discrimination have no justification >>>> whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright >>>> discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because >>>> they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact >>>> that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, >>>> we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and >>>> advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that >>>> many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We >>>> have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do >>>> and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our >>>> sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, >>>> and the little discrimination that still exists is generally >>>> thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public >>>> doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, >>>> simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK >>>> with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to >>>> educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by >>>> example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype >>>> against other people. Those are my thoughts. >>>> Chris >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Date sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >>>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, >>>> but I >>>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as >>>> blind >>>> people to think about. >>>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by >>>> the >>>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other >>>> minority >>>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More >>>> than >>>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us >>>> as a >>>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It >>>> has >>>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us >>>> in >>>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering >>>> that >>>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>>> against other minority groups. >>>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the >>>> Blind, Jim >>>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center >>>> and a >>>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so >>>> well, >>>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, >>>> Mr. >>>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a >>>> philosophy >>>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are >>>> such >>>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, >>>> what I >>>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said >>>> about >>>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, >>>> so >>>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me >>>> this >>>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a >>>> difference >>>> here? >>>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views >>>> about >>>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have >>>> no >>>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying >>>> blind >>>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, >>>> etc. >>>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't >>>> understand >>>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members >>>> will >>>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They >>>> think >>>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I >>>> don't >>>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a >>>> collective. >>>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that >>>> they >>>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the >>>> protests >>>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many >>>> people >>>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could >>>> do-and yet >>>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in >>>> our >>>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed >>>> that the >>>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a >>>> survey >>>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet >>>> would >>>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in >>>> fact, >>>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more >>>> accurate >>>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination >>>> against >>>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such >>>> a >>>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the >>>> same >>>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's >>>> awareness? Do >>>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other >>>> minorities >>>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we >>>> get >>>> members of the public to see this? >>>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are >>>> "dual >>>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in >>>> this >>>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>>> I look forward to the discussion. >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>> m%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> -- >> Julie McG >> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >> Eyes for the Blind >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 20:36:34 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 14:36:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chris, I understand your point, but people of different races have faced similar discrimination with people not believing them as intelligent or capable as caucasians. It stems from different reasoning and is exhibited differently, but people have, and still do, view people of different races and ethnicities as inferior and less intelligent. I know this wasn't your intention, but I think it's important we remember, and don't down-play, the fact that racism is still very, very prevalent today. It parades about more quietly, but people still cling to antiquated notions about people different just because of the color of their skin. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 5 Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 15:46:27 -0500 From: Chris Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4eb6f23f.2959340a.5b18.436d at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Arielle, You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, the difference between the public's stereotyping and discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, especially those members of the public who work directly with us or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; from one generation to their children, then passed on to those children's children, then to their children, and to their children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public directly effect us, as we then become the object of discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not discriminated against for the reason that there were misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple reason that they were different! During this time, I think the majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that all people are different, and that having a different skin color doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a different character than the beliefs which make people discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the misconceptions and discrimination have no justification whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, and the little discrimination that still exists is generally thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype against other people. Those are my thoughts. Chris From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 21:10:51 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 15:10:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Julie, No, the discrimination faced by people of different races and ethnicities, or gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc., is a different type of discrimination that what people with disabilities face. It also stems from different sources- usually this type of discrimination grows out of hate as well as ignorance and fear of differences. Disability is feared too, but the general idea, as you state, is that many believe disabled people require constant assistance, and disabled people are owed a debt by society because we lack equality. It's not processed this way, but it stems from the perception that disability equates to not being capable, less fortunate, inferior. We can't place discriminatory behavior side by side when it comes to disability and other issues like race or sexual orientation, but we do share the fact that ignorance and antiquated perceptions perpetuate ideas about people who are different. We can't try to make the issues exactly the same and hold the same measurements, but we can understand how ignorance cultivates an environment lacking education and infromation providing people with the concept of true equality. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 4 Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:40:03 -0600 From: Julie McGinnity To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all. I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the blind speak and advocate for themselves. I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how offensive that comment was to me. When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. :) The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with others, they understand and don't get too offended. This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading about all your thoughts and experiences. From pgradioman at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 23:11:48 2011 From: pgradioman at hotmail.com (Preston Gaylor) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:11:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? In-Reply-To: References: , <7AFC3DA2-8524-4155-B2F2-02E283D4DA5E@gmail.com>, Message-ID: I have been to the ACB radio website numourus times. The las channel called ACB radio world, deals with different programming in many lanuages. I wonder if they have a facebook page to stay connected! Good luck on your project Juell! Preston Gaylor > Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 12:12:57 -0500 > From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? > > Where do I find ACB Radio? > > On 11/7/11, Alena Roberts wrote: > > I know that ACB radio advertises about products and services for the blind. > > > > Alena > > On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Jewel wrote: > > > >> Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion > >> that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The > >> assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on > >> television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I > >> wanted to get some ideas from you all. > >> > >> How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their > >> audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an > >> example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how > >> did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you > >> give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the > >> audience, and what format they are in? > >> > >> Thhank you for any input you can provide. > >> > >> ~Jewel > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40hotmail.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 23:41:35 2011 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 18:41:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Excel question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please email me off-list and I will help you. William O'Donnell william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com > Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 21:04:12 -0500 > From: philso1003 at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Excel question > > Hi list, > I'd like your help with a quick Excel JAWS question. > I'm working with an Excel file that has 100 sheets in it. I can use > Ctrl-PageDown and Ctrl-PageUp to move from sheet to sheet. However, I > was wondering how do I select all the sheets at once? I need to make > a formatting change to all 100 sheets and it'd be easier to just > select all 100 sheets and make the change once. > Thanks a lot. > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Nov 8 01:03:35 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 20:03:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities Message-ID: 58f8e3c5-2900-4a0c-b4de-a16d7a2baaa2@samobile.net You bet. Especially when, for example, one considers African American albinoes. I've been doing some reading on the subject; the prevailing theme seems to be a sense of isolation because they're not sure where they fit on the social grid because it's hard for both Black and White people to accept the notion of someone who is Black but with white skin. Then add the blindness issues on top. Yikes. respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Chris, > I understand your point, but people of different races have faced > similar discrimination with people not believing them as intelligent or > capable as caucasians. It stems from different reasoning and is > exhibited differently, but people have, and still do, view people of > different races and ethnicities as inferior and less intelligent. I know > this wasn't your intention, but I think it's important we remember, and > don't down-play, the fact that racism is still very, very prevalent > today. It parades about more quietly, but people still cling to > antiquated notions about people different just because of the color of > their skin. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 15:46:27 -0500 > From: Chris Nusbaum > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > Message-ID: <4eb6f23f.2959340a.5b18.436d at mx.google.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed > Hi Arielle, > You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good > discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, > the difference between the public's stereotyping and > discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups > is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about > us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions > about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the > public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not > all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, > especially those members of the public who work directly with us > or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know > from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that > these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; > from one generation to their children, then passed on to those > children's children, then to their children, and to their > children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long > time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes > easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These > misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of > the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and > discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public > directly effect us, as we then become the object of > discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups > don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. > Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do > and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to > their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white > piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be > employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not > discriminated against for the reason that there were > misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms > of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple > reason that they were different! During this time, I think the > majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that > all people are different, and that having a different skin color > doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about > blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a > different character than the beliefs which make people > discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that > the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us > to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth > about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people > discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about > minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, > sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue > stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype > or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based > on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the > misconceptions and discrimination have no justification > whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright > discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because > they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact > that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, > we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and > advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that > many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We > have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do > and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our > sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, > and the little discrimination that still exists is generally > thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public > doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, > simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK > with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to > educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by > example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype > against other people. Those are my thoughts. > Chris > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Nov 8 01:05:06 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 20:05:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities Message-ID: a83078fb-04e9-48b9-bb52-ef45be76560f@samobile.net Perhaps, but there are "cross-platform" techniques that other minorities are using that might help us out just as well. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Julie, > No, the discrimination faced by people of different races and > ethnicities, or gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc., is a > different type of discrimination that what people with disabilities > face. It also stems from different sources- usually this type of > discrimination grows out of hate as well as ignorance and fear of > differences. Disability is feared too, but the general idea, as you > state, is that many believe disabled people require constant assistance, > and disabled people are owed a debt by society because we lack equality. > It's not processed this way, but it stems from the perception that > disability equates to not being capable, less fortunate, inferior. > We can't place discriminatory behavior side by side when it comes to > disability and other issues like race or sexual orientation, but we do > share the fact that ignorance and antiquated perceptions perpetuate > ideas about people who are different. We can't try to make the issues > exactly the same and hold the same measurements, but we can understand > how ignorance cultivates an environment lacking education and > infromation providing people with the concept of true equality. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:40:03 -0600 > From: Julie McGinnity > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Hi all. > I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the > big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are > always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we are > helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am speaking > generally; I do not mean all sighted people. > I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. White > people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks without > asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the blind. > When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are treated > differently, then the sighted people are offended when the blind speak > and advocate for themselves. > I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than > educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful because > I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, and I get > very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor of speaking > to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that I should just > deal with it and accept the help because it is easier that way. I don't > even know if this person even understood how offensive that comment was > to me. > When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate > someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a > smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the > time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. > :) > The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for > advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I > prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an > accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She > knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing > competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought it > necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the piano > and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I could > not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid that it > would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me around like I > didn't know which way to face on my own. > Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did not > understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people grab my > arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull me along > will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When I explain > calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because it is her > job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with others, they > understand and don't get too offended. > This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading about > all your thoughts and experiences. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 02:14:44 2011 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 21:14:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <4EB419F3.5040505@gmail.com> References: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu> <4eb37506.e76e340a.738a.7d8c@mx.google.com> <000301cc9b05$4f6d32c0$ee479840$@suddenlink.net> <4EB419F3.5040505@gmail.com> Message-ID: I like the mobile site, but when it comes to things like looking at pictures, any captions people write for pictures are not on the mobile site. Also, can you tag people or places on the mobile site? I try the same way it is done on the regular site, putting an @ sign before, but it does not work. Thanks. Cindy On 11/4/11, Sam Hogle wrote: > I agree that it can be used. However, my issues with it have been that > it doesn't allways want to cooperate with Jaws when it comes to me > trying to post stuff since what I'm posting comes up way than slower > than my typing speed, I can't easily view my news feed, and there is > just too much crap on the page in general. That last complaint may not > be as valid since I'm what you might call a light user. I update my > stattus and profile on a regular basis, but I'm not interested in any of > the games, which I hear are not at all accessable. So, the mobile sight > has allways been way better for me. But, we're all different, so what > works for some won't work for all. > On 11/4/2011 11:47 AM, Brice Smith wrote: >> The mobile site simply does not have the same functionality as the >> regular site. This is not a problem if you are a light user, but >> anyone needing to use more advanced functions on the site will have to >> use the regular version. >> >> That said, I really don't find the regular version all that >> inaccessible and don't understand the complaints about Facebook. While >> I don't use Facebook much as an individual, I manage and update the >> page for the organization I work with. I can post updates, link to >> other organizations and pages much like twitter within statuses, >> manage photos, and do just about everything else I'm required to >> complete. What problems are you all experiencing? >> >> Brice >> >> On 11/4/11, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> I definitely agree with Rania. I'm sure there are more options and such >>> on >>> the regular facebook site, but I find the mobile one very accessible :) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Rania Ismail CMT >>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 AM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there >>> of) >>> >>> I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular >>> site as a jaws user. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) >>> >>> Excuse me if this is off topic. >>> If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook >>> page >>> with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? >>> On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an >>> acceptable >>> alternative to having an accessible site? >>> >>> Nicole >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co >>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40suddenl >>> ink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 05:27:07 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 21:27:07 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4eb8938a.4a5a340a.186c.0072@mx.google.com> No you can't tag someone on the moble site. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 6:15 PM To: shogle at students.kennesaw.edu; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) I like the mobile site, but when it comes to things like looking at pictures, any captions people write for pictures are not on the mobile site. Also, can you tag people or places on the mobile site? I try the same way it is done on the regular site, putting an @ sign before, but it does not work. Thanks. Cindy On 11/4/11, Sam Hogle wrote: > I agree that it can be used. However, my issues with it have been that > it doesn't allways want to cooperate with Jaws when it comes to me > trying to post stuff since what I'm posting comes up way than slower > than my typing speed, I can't easily view my news feed, and there is > just too much crap on the page in general. That last complaint may not > be as valid since I'm what you might call a light user. I update my > stattus and profile on a regular basis, but I'm not interested in any > of the games, which I hear are not at all accessable. So, the mobile > sight has allways been way better for me. But, we're all different, so > what works for some won't work for all. > On 11/4/2011 11:47 AM, Brice Smith wrote: >> The mobile site simply does not have the same functionality as the >> regular site. This is not a problem if you are a light user, but >> anyone needing to use more advanced functions on the site will have >> to use the regular version. >> >> That said, I really don't find the regular version all that >> inaccessible and don't understand the complaints about Facebook. >> While I don't use Facebook much as an individual, I manage and update >> the page for the organization I work with. I can post updates, link >> to other organizations and pages much like twitter within statuses, >> manage photos, and do just about everything else I'm required to >> complete. What problems are you all experiencing? >> >> Brice >> >> On 11/4/11, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> I definitely agree with Rania. I'm sure there are more options and >>> such on the regular facebook site, but I find the mobile one very >>> accessible :) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf Of Rania Ismail CMT >>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 AM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack >>> there >>> of) >>> >>> I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the >>> regular site as a jaws user. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM >>> To: NABS-L >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there >>> of) >>> >>> Excuse me if this is off topic. >>> If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular >>> Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please >>> email me off list? >>> On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an >>> acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? >>> >>> Nicole >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40 >>> gmail.co >>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%4 >>> 0suddenl >>> ink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co > m > -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Tue Nov 8 02:45:46 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 18:45:46 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs Message-ID: Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just send it to the regular tech support? Nicole From kaybaycar at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 04:06:27 2011 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 22:06:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <4eb816f6.c58e2a0a.26b5.239dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4eb816f6.c58e2a0a.26b5.239dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Jedi and everyone. I've conditioned my dog to stop by beginning to stop myself when people grab me. Actually, I didn't need to condition her for when people grabe my left(dog) arm. She really does not like that. But now we're working on stopping when people grab my right arm as well. Generally my dog will just ignore people who grab my right arm, but this, as some of you might know, will just make the person tug harder in the direction they want you to go. About the smile: I think part of it is the fact that I am a rather smiley person. The other (and bigger) part of it is that I don't think we will get anywhere by being grumpy about it. Now if someone keeps grabbing me or doing other things even though I have told them repeatedly not to, that is a different story. I will get quite agrivated, but you can be firm, serious, and calmly polite all at once. I know there are different views on this. Why should we be smiley and happy when someone is truely being annoying to us? I don't think there is a law that says you have to be nice about it, but I believe that people are more likely to listen to me if I talk to them like a friend or an equal instead of their enemy just as I am more likely to listen to someone tell me about their life if they are telling me calmly how it is different from mine instead of being harsh and rude. I think I was just so surprised that she didn't listen to me that the words didn't even come. I'm so used to my other accompanist, who has learned that I do not need to be guided on the stage. I really do think that some sighted people take it as a matter of course that we need help, so they just help and don't even think twice about it. They are trained by the media or whatever that we need help with the various things we do, so it doesn't enter their mind that we might not want it or need it. This is not an excuse, but we need to understand this when dealing with them. We need to talk to them under the impression that they can and are willing to learn, that is, if we want to teach them. Of course I don't think every day should be an educational day on the abilities of the blind. Lol We have lives too. On 11/7/11, Jedi wrote: > That's exactly what i'm interested in. I'm getting this book on > encounter groups in the next week or two. I'll let you know how it goes > as I read it. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> I wonder if a society goes through different stages of "acceptance" >> for a minority group within that society. And if so, whether "you're >> pretty smart for a blind person" is one of those stages, just like in >> some other countries a few decades ago, people did make comments such >> as "you are pretty smart for a women", but now these countries have >> much better gender equity. The optimistic news is that advancements >> made by the other minority groups show that indeed this change can >> happen. The question is what are these stages, and what different >> strategies and tactics did other minority groups deploy at different >> stages to moved the society forward? Since Arielle used women as one >> of the comparison example, I should mention that the World Economic >> Forum just issued its flatest Global Gender Gap Ranking Report last >> week. The world ranking is a de facto illustration of different stages >> of gender equity in different countries, and perhaps the blind >> community can compare ourselves to these countries and see what stage >> we are at now, and what are some of the best practices women in those >> countries are using to move their societies to the next stage of >> acceptance and inclusion, as well as countries where the wrong tactics >> were used and hence are still stuck at the same stages for a decade. > >> On 11/7/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>> Hi all. > >>> I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the >>> big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are >>> always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we >>> are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am >>> speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. > >>> I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. >>> White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks >>> without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the >>> blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are >>> treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the >>> blind speak and advocate for themselves. > >>> I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than >>> educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful >>> because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, >>> and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor >>> of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that >>> I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier >>> that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how >>> offensive that comment was to me. > >>> When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate >>> someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a >>> smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the >>> time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. >>> :) > >>> The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for >>> advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I >>> prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an >>> accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She >>> knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing >>> competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought >>> it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the >>> piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I >>> could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid >>> that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me >>> around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. > >>> Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did >>> not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people >>> grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull >>> me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When >>> I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because >>> it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with >>> others, they understand and don't get too offended. > >>> This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading >>> about all your thoughts and experiences. > >>> On 11/6/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Chris, > >>>> People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their >>>> capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological >>>> science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to >>>> White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that >>>> African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think >>>> that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And >>>> don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go >>>> through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as >>>> misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive >>>> and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative >>>> judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why >>>> people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that >>>> kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude >>>> socially speaking. > >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi > >>>> Original message: >>>>> Hi Arielle, > >>>>> You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good >>>>> discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, >>>>> the difference between the public's stereotyping and >>>>> discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups >>>>> is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about >>>>> us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions >>>>> about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the >>>>> public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not >>>>> all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, >>>>> especially those members of the public who work directly with us >>>>> or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know >>>>> from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that >>>>> these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; >>>>> from one generation to their children, then passed on to those >>>>> children's children, then to their children, and to their >>>>> children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long >>>>> time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes >>>>> easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These >>>>> misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of >>>>> the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and >>>>> discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public >>>>> directly effect us, as we then become the object of >>>>> discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups >>>>> don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. >>>>> Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do >>>>> and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to >>>>> their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white >>>>> piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be >>>>> employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not >>>>> discriminated against for the reason that there were >>>>> misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms >>>>> of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple >>>>> reason that they were different! During this time, I think the >>>>> majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that >>>>> all people are different, and that having a different skin color >>>>> doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about >>>>> blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a >>>>> different character than the beliefs which make people >>>>> discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that >>>>> the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us >>>>> to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth >>>>> about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people >>>>> discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about >>>>> minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, >>>>> sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue >>>>> stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype >>>>> or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based >>>>> on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the >>>>> misconceptions and discrimination have no justification >>>>> whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright >>>>> discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because >>>>> they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact >>>>> that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, >>>>> we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and >>>>> advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that >>>>> many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We >>>>> have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do >>>>> and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our >>>>> sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, >>>>> and the little discrimination that still exists is generally >>>>> thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public >>>>> doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, >>>>> simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK >>>>> with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to >>>>> educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by >>>>> example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype >>>>> against other people. Those are my thoughts. > >>>>> Chris > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > >>>>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, >>>>> but I >>>>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as >>>>> blind >>>>> people to think about. >>>>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by >>>>> the >>>>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other >>>>> minority >>>>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More >>>>> than >>>>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us >>>>> as a >>>>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It >>>>> has >>>>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us >>>>> in >>>>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering >>>>> that >>>>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>>>> against other minority groups. >>>>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the >>>>> Blind, Jim >>>>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center >>>>> and a >>>>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so >>>>> well, >>>>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, >>>>> Mr. >>>>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a >>>>> philosophy >>>>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are >>>>> such >>>>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>>>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, >>>>> what I >>>>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said >>>>> about >>>>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>>>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>>>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, >>>>> so >>>>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me >>>>> this >>>>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>>>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a >>>>> difference >>>>> here? >>>>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>>>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views >>>>> about >>>>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>>>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have >>>>> no >>>>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying >>>>> blind >>>>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>>>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, >>>>> etc. >>>>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't >>>>> understand >>>>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members >>>>> will >>>>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They >>>>> think >>>>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I >>>>> don't >>>>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a >>>>> collective. >>>>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that >>>>> they >>>>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the >>>>> protests >>>>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many >>>>> people >>>>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could >>>>> do-and yet >>>>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>>>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in >>>>> our >>>>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed >>>>> that the >>>>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a >>>>> survey >>>>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet >>>>> would >>>>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in >>>>> fact, >>>>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>>>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>>>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>>>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more >>>>> accurate >>>>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination >>>>> against >>>>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such >>>>> a >>>>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the >>>>> same >>>>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's >>>>> awareness? Do >>>>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other >>>>> minorities >>>>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we >>>>> get >>>>> members of the public to see this? >>>>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are >>>>> "dual >>>>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in >>>>> this >>>>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>>>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>>>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>>>> I look forward to the discussion. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.com > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > > > >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>> Eyes for the Blind > >>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>> life." >>> John 3:16 > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding Eyes for the Blind "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From alexandera.castillo at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 04:20:44 2011 From: alexandera.castillo at gmail.com (Alexander Castillo) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 23:20:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: <4eb881a9.8c11e70a.7cfb.2c65SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4eb881a9.8c11e70a.7cfb.2c65SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Chris wrote: "It seems to me that these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; from one generation to their children, then passed on to those children's children, then to their children, and to their children, and so on.  When these beliefs are taught for a long time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes easier for people to believe them and they mostly do.  These misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and discrimination stem.  Then, the misconceptions of the public directly effect us, as we then become the object of discrimination and stereotypes.  To me, other minority groups don't have this problem.  " These are exactly the causes of discrimination against gender, religion, ethnicity or race.... And, they are still being fought against by other minority groups as well. People do believe that ethnicity or race has to do with intelligence, they do discriminate against sex and gender based on beliefs which are false. We are no diferent as a minority group than any other. This might be a dificult concept to grasp for those of us who's only identification with discrimination has come from blindness. But what we deal with on a daily basis is what many minority groups in the past have dealt with. The difference now is that for those other minority groups, it has become taboo to stereotype and discriminate even in positive ways, for example, saying that all Asians are good in math, or that all Hispanics are good at baseball, or that one should treat their female co-workers gentler then male coworkers. What we face is discrimination which to the sighted public isn't visible as discrimination. It is seen as charity, as grace, as good will, as good intent, and quite often as a necessary part of "dealing with the blind." Thanks for reading, Alex On 11/7/11, Jedi wrote: > Perhaps, but there are "cross-platform" techniques that other > minorities are using that might help us out just as well. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Julie, > >> No, the discrimination faced by people of different races and >> ethnicities, or gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc., is a >> different type of discrimination that what people with disabilities >> face. It also stems from different sources- usually this type of >> discrimination grows out of hate as well as ignorance and fear of >> differences. Disability is feared too, but the general idea, as you >> state, is that many believe disabled people require constant assistance, >> and disabled people are owed a debt by society because we lack equality. >> It's not processed this way, but it stems from the perception that >> disability equates to not being capable, less fortunate, inferior. > >> We can't place discriminatory behavior side by side when it comes to >> disability and other issues like race or sexual orientation, but we do >> share the fact that ignorance and antiquated perceptions perpetuate >> ideas about people who are different. We can't try to make the issues >> exactly the same and hold the same measurements, but we can understand >> how ignorance cultivates an environment lacking education and >> infromation providing people with the concept of true equality. > >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:40:03 -0600 >> From: Julie McGinnity >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >> Message-ID: > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> Hi all. > >> I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the >> big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are >> always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we are >> helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am speaking >> generally; I do not mean all sighted people. > >> I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. White >> people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks without >> asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the blind. >> When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are treated >> differently, then the sighted people are offended when the blind speak >> and advocate for themselves. > >> I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than >> educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful because >> I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, and I get >> very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor of speaking >> to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that I should just >> deal with it and accept the help because it is easier that way. I don't >> even know if this person even understood how offensive that comment was >> to me. > >> When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate >> someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a >> smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the >> time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. >> :) > >> The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for >> advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I >> prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an >> accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She >> knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing >> competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought it >> necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the piano >> and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I could >> not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid that it >> would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me around like I >> didn't know which way to face on my own. > >> Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did not >> understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people grab my >> arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull me along >> will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When I explain >> calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because it is her >> job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with others, they >> understand and don't get too offended. > >> This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading about >> all your thoughts and experiences. > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alexandera.castillo%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 04:43:44 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 21:43:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. Message-ID: Hi all, I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the silent grab scares me to death! Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask someone for information or directions, they will answer my question and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I had done it myself. Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're behind them than if you're in front of them? Best, Arielle From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Nov 8 04:46:11 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 22:46:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: <4eb816f6.c58e2a0a.26b5.239dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Julie: You make some great points. As a musician, myself, I may need assistance to the stage, if I haven't practiced the route before the concert. As a Gospel artist, that travels alot, I don't have the time to learn the route to and from the platform. If it's a place I've frequently gone to, I can make it where I need to go. When there's an instance, where I need sighted assistance, I show the guide how to do it correctly, and it's very successful. Some people up north don't pay any attention, but in the South where I live, it's different. I know, because I went through several disasters with guides, in the Indianapolis area. Blessings, Joshua On 11/7/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: > Hi Jedi and everyone. > > I've conditioned my dog to stop by beginning to stop myself when > people grab me. Actually, I didn't need to condition her for when > people grabe my left(dog) arm. She really does not like that. But > now we're working on stopping when people grab my right arm as well. > Generally my dog will just ignore people who grab my right arm, but > this, as some of you might know, will just make the person tug harder > in the direction they want you to go. > > About the smile: I think part of it is the fact that I am a rather > smiley person. The other (and bigger) part of it is that I don't > think we will get anywhere by being grumpy about it. Now if someone > keeps grabbing me or doing other things even though I have told them > repeatedly not to, that is a different story. I will get quite > agrivated, but you can be firm, serious, and calmly polite all at > once. > > I know there are different views on this. Why should we be smiley and > happy when someone is truely being annoying to us? I don't think > there is a law that says you have to be nice about it, but I believe > that people are more likely to listen to me if I talk to them like a > friend or an equal instead of their enemy just as I am more likely to > listen to someone tell me about their life if they are telling me > calmly how it is different from mine instead of being harsh and rude. > > I think I was just so surprised that she didn't listen to me that the > words didn't even come. I'm so used to my other accompanist, who has > learned that I do not need to be guided on the stage. I really do > think that some sighted people take it as a matter of course that we > need help, so they just help and don't even think twice about it. > They are trained by the media or whatever that we need help with the > various things we do, so it doesn't enter their mind that we might not > want it or need it. This is not an excuse, but we need to understand > this when dealing with them. We need to talk to them under the > impression that they can and are willing to learn, that is, if we want > to teach them. Of course I don't think every day should be an > educational day on the abilities of the blind. Lol We have lives > too. > > > > On 11/7/11, Jedi wrote: >> That's exactly what i'm interested in. I'm getting this book on >> encounter groups in the next week or two. I'll let you know how it goes >> as I read it. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> I wonder if a society goes through different stages of "acceptance" >>> for a minority group within that society. And if so, whether "you're >>> pretty smart for a blind person" is one of those stages, just like in >>> some other countries a few decades ago, people did make comments such >>> as "you are pretty smart for a women", but now these countries have >>> much better gender equity. The optimistic news is that advancements >>> made by the other minority groups show that indeed this change can >>> happen. The question is what are these stages, and what different >>> strategies and tactics did other minority groups deploy at different >>> stages to moved the society forward? Since Arielle used women as one >>> of the comparison example, I should mention that the World Economic >>> Forum just issued its flatest Global Gender Gap Ranking Report last >>> week. The world ranking is a de facto illustration of different stages >>> of gender equity in different countries, and perhaps the blind >>> community can compare ourselves to these countries and see what stage >>> we are at now, and what are some of the best practices women in those >>> countries are using to move their societies to the next stage of >>> acceptance and inclusion, as well as countries where the wrong tactics >>> were used and hence are still stuck at the same stages for a decade. >> >>> On 11/7/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>> Hi all. >> >>>> I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the >>>> big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are >>>> always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we >>>> are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am >>>> speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. >> >>>> I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. >>>> White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks >>>> without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the >>>> blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are >>>> treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the >>>> blind speak and advocate for themselves. >> >>>> I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than >>>> educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful >>>> because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, >>>> and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor >>>> of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that >>>> I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier >>>> that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how >>>> offensive that comment was to me. >> >>>> When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate >>>> someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a >>>> smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the >>>> time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. >>>> :) >> >>>> The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for >>>> advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I >>>> prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an >>>> accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She >>>> knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing >>>> competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought >>>> it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the >>>> piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I >>>> could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid >>>> that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me >>>> around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. >> >>>> Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did >>>> not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people >>>> grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull >>>> me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When >>>> I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because >>>> it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with >>>> others, they understand and don't get too offended. >> >>>> This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading >>>> about all your thoughts and experiences. >> >>>> On 11/6/11, Jedi wrote: >>>>> Chris, >> >>>>> People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their >>>>> capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological >>>>> science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to >>>>> White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that >>>>> African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think >>>>> that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And >>>>> don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go >>>>> through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as >>>>> misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive >>>>> and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative >>>>> judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why >>>>> people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that >>>>> kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude >>>>> socially speaking. >> >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> Jedi >> >>>>> Original message: >>>>>> Hi Arielle, >> >>>>>> You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good >>>>>> discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, >>>>>> the difference between the public's stereotyping and >>>>>> discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups >>>>>> is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about >>>>>> us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions >>>>>> about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the >>>>>> public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not >>>>>> all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, >>>>>> especially those members of the public who work directly with us >>>>>> or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know >>>>>> from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that >>>>>> these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; >>>>>> from one generation to their children, then passed on to those >>>>>> children's children, then to their children, and to their >>>>>> children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long >>>>>> time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes >>>>>> easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These >>>>>> misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of >>>>>> the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and >>>>>> discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public >>>>>> directly effect us, as we then become the object of >>>>>> discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups >>>>>> don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. >>>>>> Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do >>>>>> and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to >>>>>> their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white >>>>>> piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be >>>>>> employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not >>>>>> discriminated against for the reason that there were >>>>>> misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms >>>>>> of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple >>>>>> reason that they were different! During this time, I think the >>>>>> majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that >>>>>> all people are different, and that having a different skin color >>>>>> doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about >>>>>> blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a >>>>>> different character than the beliefs which make people >>>>>> discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that >>>>>> the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us >>>>>> to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth >>>>>> about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people >>>>>> discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about >>>>>> minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, >>>>>> sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue >>>>>> stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype >>>>>> or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based >>>>>> on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the >>>>>> misconceptions and discrimination have no justification >>>>>> whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright >>>>>> discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because >>>>>> they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact >>>>>> that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, >>>>>> we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and >>>>>> advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that >>>>>> many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We >>>>>> have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do >>>>>> and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our >>>>>> sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, >>>>>> and the little discrimination that still exists is generally >>>>>> thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public >>>>>> doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, >>>>>> simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK >>>>>> with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to >>>>>> educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by >>>>>> example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype >>>>>> against other people. Those are my thoughts. >> >>>>>> Chris >> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600 >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >> >>>>>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, >>>>>> but I >>>>>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people to think about. >>>>>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by >>>>>> the >>>>>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other >>>>>> minority >>>>>> groups in this country historically and in the present. More >>>>>> than >>>>>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us >>>>>> as a >>>>>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It >>>>>> has >>>>>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us >>>>>> in >>>>>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering >>>>>> that >>>>>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination >>>>>> against other minority groups. >>>>>> Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the >>>>>> Blind, Jim >>>>>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center >>>>>> and a >>>>>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so >>>>>> well, >>>>>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, >>>>>> Mr. >>>>>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a >>>>>> philosophy >>>>>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are >>>>>> such >>>>>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I >>>>>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, >>>>>> what I >>>>>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said >>>>>> about >>>>>> my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" >>>>>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her >>>>>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, >>>>>> so >>>>>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me >>>>>> this >>>>>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a >>>>>> woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a >>>>>> difference >>>>>> here? >>>>>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and >>>>>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views >>>>>> about >>>>>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination >>>>>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have >>>>>> no >>>>>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind >>>>>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't >>>>>> understand >>>>>> why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members >>>>>> will >>>>>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They >>>>>> think >>>>>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I >>>>>> don't >>>>>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a >>>>>> collective. >>>>>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that >>>>>> they >>>>>> are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the >>>>>> protests >>>>>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many >>>>>> people >>>>>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could >>>>>> do-and yet >>>>>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female >>>>>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in >>>>>> our >>>>>> modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed >>>>>> that the >>>>>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a >>>>>> survey >>>>>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet >>>>>> would >>>>>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in >>>>>> fact, >>>>>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those >>>>>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their >>>>>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. >>>>>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more >>>>>> accurate >>>>>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination >>>>>> against >>>>>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such >>>>>> a >>>>>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the >>>>>> same >>>>>> scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's >>>>>> awareness? Do >>>>>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other >>>>>> minorities >>>>>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we >>>>>> get >>>>>> members of the public to see this? >>>>>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are >>>>>> "dual >>>>>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in >>>>>> this >>>>>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon >>>>>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are >>>>>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? >>>>>> I look forward to the discussion. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>>> m%40gmail.com >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> >> >> >>>> -- >>>> Julie McG >>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera >>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding >>>> Eyes for the Blind >> >>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>> life." >>>> John 3:16 >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding > Eyes for the Blind > > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Nov 8 04:50:57 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 22:50:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! Arielle, you've been through it! That's not necessary, that they do those things! I've been through alot of stuff regarding this, as well. I've also had guides go faster than I'm accustomed to, and I've fallen, because they didn't go at my pace. I always tell people, if they guide me, that they must go at my pace. Blessings, Joshua On 11/7/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being > grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity > issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, > and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or > propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to > bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I > would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, > many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact > it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more > challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip > in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into > the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my > arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop > arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, > my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the > one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was > incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel > very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a > left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. > The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal > communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both > shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run > into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the > silent grab scares me to death! > Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and > will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if > they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let > go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do > that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. > Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person > is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask > someone for information or directions, they will answer my question > and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are > offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they > have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really > appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the > silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do > so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this > has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple > explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab > me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier > for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people > are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but > because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to > provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some > definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have > snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when > crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I > don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above > all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually > more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For > instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist > insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure > was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing > is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes > on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I > had done it myself. > Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about > sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and > walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they > will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow > instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're > behind them than if you're in front of them? > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 04:54:55 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 23:54:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: References: <4eb881a9.8c11e70a.7cfb.2c65SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Alex, That's right. Blind people face discrimination by other forms; its disguised as charity or grace, but treating us differently because they're sorry for us is discrimination. Other minorities fight discrimination, its just different though. One way that blind people face it and other minorities don't though is that the public wants to help blind people a lot. Rarely would someone say, Here, the elevator is this way, when you are fine heading to the steps or escalator. Or grab you and propel you in the opposite way to wich you need or want to go. In American culture, people just don't grab each other, but it seems to be okay form their point of view to grab us. People often give directions to one another; yet the difference is they ask each other first. If someone approaches me, I don't mind if they lightly touch me to get my attention, after all cannot make eye contact with me. And if they just walk up and talk, I may not know they're talking to me. But grabbing is not right. Nor are some other things they do like talking to a sighted companion instead of you or talking louder. So while we have lots in common with other minorities, I think the treatment we get is different than them. After all its politically incorrect to voice views on Hispanics or blacks or Asians now. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Castillo Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities Hi all, Chris wrote: "It seems to me that these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; from one generation to their children, then passed on to those children's children, then to their children, and to their children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public directly effect us, as we then become the object of discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups don't have this problem. " These are exactly the causes of discrimination against gender, religion, ethnicity or race.... And, they are still being fought against by other minority groups as well. People do believe that ethnicity or race has to do with intelligence, they do discriminate against sex and gender based on beliefs which are false. We are no diferent as a minority group than any other. This might be a dificult concept to grasp for those of us who's only identification with discrimination has come from blindness. But what we deal with on a daily basis is what many minority groups in the past have dealt with. The difference now is that for those other minority groups, it has become taboo to stereotype and discriminate even in positive ways, for example, saying that all Asians are good in math, or that all Hispanics are good at baseball, or that one should treat their female co-workers gentler then male coworkers. What we face is discrimination which to the sighted public isn't visible as discrimination. It is seen as charity, as grace, as good will, as good intent, and quite often as a necessary part of "dealing with the blind." Thanks for reading, Alex On 11/7/11, Jedi wrote: > Perhaps, but there are "cross-platform" techniques that other > minorities are using that might help us out just as well. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Julie, > >> No, the discrimination faced by people of different races and >> ethnicities, or gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc., is a >> different type of discrimination that what people with disabilities >> face. It also stems from different sources- usually this type of >> discrimination grows out of hate as well as ignorance and fear of >> differences. Disability is feared too, but the general idea, as you >> state, is that many believe disabled people require constant assistance, >> and disabled people are owed a debt by society because we lack equality. >> It's not processed this way, but it stems from the perception that >> disability equates to not being capable, less fortunate, inferior. > >> We can't place discriminatory behavior side by side when it comes to >> disability and other issues like race or sexual orientation, but we do >> share the fact that ignorance and antiquated perceptions perpetuate >> ideas about people who are different. We can't try to make the issues >> exactly the same and hold the same measurements, but we can understand >> how ignorance cultivates an environment lacking education and >> infromation providing people with the concept of true equality. > >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:40:03 -0600 >> From: Julie McGinnity >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >> Message-ID: > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> Hi all. > >> I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the >> big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are >> always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we are >> helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am speaking >> generally; I do not mean all sighted people. > >> I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. White >> people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks without >> asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the blind. >> When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are treated >> differently, then the sighted people are offended when the blind speak >> and advocate for themselves. > >> I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than >> educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful because >> I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, and I get >> very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor of speaking >> to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that I should just >> deal with it and accept the help because it is easier that way. I don't >> even know if this person even understood how offensive that comment was >> to me. > >> When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate >> someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a >> smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the >> time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. >> :) > >> The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for >> advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I >> prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an >> accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She >> knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing >> competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought it >> necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the piano >> and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I could >> not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid that it >> would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me around like I >> didn't know which way to face on my own. > >> Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did not >> understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people grab my >> arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull me along >> will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When I explain >> calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because it is her >> job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with others, they >> understand and don't get too offended. > >> This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading about >> all your thoughts and experiences. > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alexandera.castillo%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From hogle.sam at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 05:01:22 2011 From: hogle.sam at gmail.com (Sam Hogle) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 00:01:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB8B7A2.90500@gmail.com> I agree with everything you've said here. As for the safety issue, I've noticed the same thing when it comes to ballanse. There have been many times when a person was trying to "help" me and ended up causing me to trip, or run in to something. For instanse, there was a day when I was walking back to my dorm after classes, and was about to cross a parking lot. I knew a car was coming, so I wasn't planning to cross. However, a passerby still felt the need to grabb me by my backpack and drag me several feet backwards. For me, there were a few safety issues here. The move obvious one is I could have lost my ballanse. Also, when you grab someone from behind with no warning, they're going to react first and ask questions later. It's just human instinct. So, it was also unsafe for the other person. Finally, it posed a risk to my seeing eye dog since when I was pulled backwards, he was too since I was holding on to his harness. So, it was just a bad move all around. The part that got me was when I turned to ask what he was thinking and he said "there's a car," all casually as if he hadn't just allmost pulled me over. Speaking of the seeing eye dog, I also can't stand it when someone reaches over and grabbs his leash. They think they're being helpful, but they are actually hindering us since he can't guide me safely when people are doing that. Also, I see him and anything on him as an extention of my person, so grabbing the leash is definitely an envation of personal space. Okay, someone else can have my soapbox now. Sam On 11/7/2011 11:43 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being > grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity > issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, > and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or > propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to > bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I > would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, > many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact > it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more > challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip > in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into > the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my > arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop > arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, > my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the > one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was > incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel > very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a > left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. > The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal > communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both > shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run > into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the > silent grab scares me to death! > Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and > will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if > they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let > go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do > that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. > Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person > is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask > someone for information or directions, they will answer my question > and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are > offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they > have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really > appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the > silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do > so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this > has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple > explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab > me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier > for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people > are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but > because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to > provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some > definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have > snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when > crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I > don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above > all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually > more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For > instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist > insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure > was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing > is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes > on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I > had done it myself. > Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about > sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and > walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they > will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow > instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're > behind them than if you're in front of them? > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com > From hogle.sam at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 05:03:12 2011 From: hogle.sam at gmail.com (Sam Hogle) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 00:03:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB8B810.2030700@gmail.com> Actually, I've had the opposite problem. For some reason, guides think they have to go slower. The funny thing is they think I can't walk at a normal pace, but they also think I can see the curbs we walk up or down. I will never understand people. On 11/7/2011 11:50 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Wow! > Arielle, you've been through it! > That's not necessary, that they do those things! > I've been through alot of stuff regarding this, as well. > I've also had guides go faster than I'm accustomed to, and I've > fallen, because they didn't go at my pace. > I always tell people, if they guide me, that they must go at my pace. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/7/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being >> grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity >> issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, >> and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or >> propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to >> bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I >> would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, >> many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact >> it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more >> challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip >> in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into >> the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my >> arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop >> arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, >> my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the >> one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was >> incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel >> very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a >> left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. >> The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal >> communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both >> shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run >> into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the >> silent grab scares me to death! >> Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and >> will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if >> they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let >> go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do >> that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. >> Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person >> is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask >> someone for information or directions, they will answer my question >> and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are >> offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they >> have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really >> appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the >> silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do >> so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this >> has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple >> explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab >> me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier >> for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people >> are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but >> because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to >> provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some >> definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have >> snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when >> crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I >> don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above >> all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually >> more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For >> instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist >> insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure >> was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing >> is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes >> on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I >> had done it myself. >> Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about >> sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and >> walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they >> will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow >> instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're >> behind them than if you're in front of them? >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Nov 8 05:10:38 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 23:10:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. In-Reply-To: <4EB8B810.2030700@gmail.com> References: <4EB8B810.2030700@gmail.com> Message-ID: LOL! My brother guides me all around Walmart, and he likes to go faster than I can go. He doesn't understand that I can't walk at a normal pace, because of a Syatic Nerve problem. Blessings, Joshua On 11/7/11, Sam Hogle wrote: > Actually, I've had the opposite problem. For some reason, guides think > they have to go slower. The funny thing is they think I can't walk at a > normal pace, but they also think I can see the curbs we walk up or down. > I will never understand people. > On 11/7/2011 11:50 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Wow! >> Arielle, you've been through it! >> That's not necessary, that they do those things! >> I've been through alot of stuff regarding this, as well. >> I've also had guides go faster than I'm accustomed to, and I've >> fallen, because they didn't go at my pace. >> I always tell people, if they guide me, that they must go at my pace. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 11/7/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being >>> grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity >>> issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, >>> and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or >>> propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to >>> bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I >>> would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, >>> many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact >>> it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more >>> challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip >>> in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into >>> the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my >>> arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop >>> arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, >>> my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the >>> one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was >>> incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel >>> very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a >>> left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. >>> The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal >>> communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both >>> shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run >>> into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the >>> silent grab scares me to death! >>> Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and >>> will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if >>> they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let >>> go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do >>> that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. >>> Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person >>> is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask >>> someone for information or directions, they will answer my question >>> and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are >>> offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they >>> have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really >>> appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the >>> silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do >>> so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this >>> has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple >>> explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab >>> me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier >>> for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people >>> are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but >>> because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to >>> provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some >>> definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have >>> snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when >>> crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I >>> don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above >>> all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually >>> more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For >>> instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist >>> insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure >>> was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing >>> is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes >>> on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I >>> had done it myself. >>> Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about >>> sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and >>> walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they >>> will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow >>> instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're >>> behind them than if you're in front of them? >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From graduate56 at juno.com Tue Nov 8 02:36:16 2011 From: graduate56 at juno.com (Melissa Green) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 19:36:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups References: Message-ID: <570A98E315DC4A3EBF4269FF7360A295@melissa> Hi all. This is a very interesting topic. I see myself as having three minorities. I am black, blind and a woman. All of these things are taken into account when I go in for a job interview. The hardest thing for me though is the fact that blind people make more of a big deal about my minority status. For example, many blind men will not take the time to get to know me because I am totally blind. Then there are those who make racial slurrs about me when they don't know me and are going on what they have been told. I know that there are lots of barriers for me to knock down. However, I feel blessed to be a part of all of my minority groups. Just my two-cents. Blessings! Melissa Green Life is like a rainbow. You need both the sun and the rain to make its colors appear. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:09 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind > people to think about. > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority > groups in this country historically and in the present. More than > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination > against other minority groups. > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I > said about you being blind was very different from what you said about > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference > here? > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would > never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get > members of the public to see this? > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > I look forward to the discussion. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com > > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 07:11:20 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 02:11:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-1662185687422470793@unknownmsgid> Just send it to tech-support. They are generally not very helpful though. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:46 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: > Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just send it to the regular tech support? > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Tue Nov 8 07:29:38 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 23:29:38 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs References: <-1662185687422470793@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ignasi Cambra" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs > Just send it to tech-support. They are generally not very helpful though. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:46 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: > >> Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the >> CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to >> Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just >> send it to the regular tech support? >> >> Nicole >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Nov 8 07:32:39 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 01:32:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs In-Reply-To: <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> References: <-1662185687422470793@unknownmsgid> <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Nicole: I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but that's nothing new for me on these lists. Although I use Jaws, I think Window Eyes is way better! Blessings, Joshua On 11/8/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a > bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ignasi Cambra" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:11 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs > > >> Just send it to tech-support. They are generally not very helpful though. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:46 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >> wrote: >> >>> Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the >>> CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to >>> Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just >>> >>> send it to the regular tech support? >>> >>> Nicole >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Tue Nov 8 07:51:56 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 23:51:56 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs References: <-1662185687422470793@unknownmsgid><9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <74B1D209125C4B9581C9B659F03CC0D3@stanford.edu> Not at all. *grin* To each his own; whatever works for you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Lester" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs > Nicole: > I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but that's nothing new for > me on these lists. > Although I use Jaws, I think Window Eyes is way better! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/8/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a >> bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ignasi Cambra" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs >> >> >>> Just send it to tech-support. They are generally not very helpful >>> though. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:46 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the >>>> CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS >>>> to >>>> Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you >>>> just >>>> >>>> send it to the regular tech support? >>>> >>>> Nicole >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Nov 8 07:59:05 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 01:59:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs In-Reply-To: <74B1D209125C4B9581C9B659F03CC0D3@stanford.edu> References: <-1662185687422470793@unknownmsgid> <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> <74B1D209125C4B9581C9B659F03CC0D3@stanford.edu> Message-ID: I'm using Jaws 12, right now, and I'm not liking it. I guess it's because it isn't compatible with my Laptop, (I have an Acer.) I used Window Eyes in middle school, and loved it. Things may have changed, but I'd get more assistance from their support in a timely manner, rather than waiting, and listening to those long recordings, and the boring music I've complained about on Jaws's support line. Blessings, Joshua On 11/8/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Not at all. *grin* To each his own; whatever works for you. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:32 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs > > >> Nicole: >> I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but that's nothing new for >> me on these lists. >> Although I use Jaws, I think Window Eyes is way better! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 11/8/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >>> That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a >>> bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ignasi Cambra" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs >>> >>> >>>> Just send it to tech-support. They are generally not very helpful >>>> though. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:46 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the >>>>> CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS >>>>> to >>>>> Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you >>>>> just >>>>> >>>>> send it to the regular tech support? >>>>> >>>>> Nicole >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From carlymih at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 12:56:59 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 04:56:59 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs In-Reply-To: References: <-1662185687422470793@unknownmsgid> <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111108045616.01cf5fd0@earthlink.net> Good morning, List, More WindowEyes support, here! for today, CarAt 11:32 PM 11/7/2011, Joshua Lester wrote: >Nicole: >I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but that's nothing new for >me on these lists. >Although I use Jaws, I think Window Eyes is way better! >Blessings, Joshua > >On 11/8/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > > That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a > > bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ignasi Cambra" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:11 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs > > > > > >> Just send it to tech-support. They are generally not very helpful though. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:46 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the > >>> CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to > >>> Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just > >>> > >>> send it to the regular tech support? > >>> > >>> Nicole > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 13:36:00 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 08:36:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4EB8B810.2030700@gmail.com> Message-ID: Add to that my situation, where touching me can sometimes shoot severe pain up and down my body (I have fibromyalgia), and you have a recipe for disaster. When someone grabs me, I stop everything I'm doing and say "Please don't grab me." If they don't let go, I wrench my arm away or if they are touching my back (which is a super big no-no with me, since my spine is super-sensitive thanks to two slipped discs along with fibromyalgia), I arch my back whether it's painful or not, to show them that it's not all right to touch. I'll tell you one story of when grabbing me caused a problem... I was walking from the library and my cane was sweeping back and forth. Suddenly someone came over and grabbed my cane arm and wrenched me sideways. I shouted in alarm and wrenched my arm away, but my arc had already been interrupted and I didn't realize that there was a pole right in front of me. This was one of those metal poles to hold up a handicapped sign. I hit it full on becaus emy cane's arc had been interrupted and didn't catch the pole, and now I have a dent in the upper part of my forehead from that pole. It didn't break the skin, but I can always feel the dent if I rub my forehead. Plus it caused a minor concussion. I was soooo embarrassed by it, but realized later that it wasn't my fault, that it was caused by this person grabbing my cane arm. Sheessh! ~Jewel On 11/8/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > LOL! > My brother guides me all around Walmart, and he likes to go faster > than I can go. > He doesn't understand that I can't walk at a normal pace, because of a > Syatic Nerve problem. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/7/11, Sam Hogle wrote: >> Actually, I've had the opposite problem. For some reason, guides think >> they have to go slower. The funny thing is they think I can't walk at a >> normal pace, but they also think I can see the curbs we walk up or down. >> I will never understand people. >> On 11/7/2011 11:50 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> Wow! >>> Arielle, you've been through it! >>> That's not necessary, that they do those things! >>> I've been through alot of stuff regarding this, as well. >>> I've also had guides go faster than I'm accustomed to, and I've >>> fallen, because they didn't go at my pace. >>> I always tell people, if they guide me, that they must go at my pace. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 11/7/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being >>>> grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity >>>> issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, >>>> and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or >>>> propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to >>>> bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I >>>> would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, >>>> many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact >>>> it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more >>>> challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip >>>> in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into >>>> the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my >>>> arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop >>>> arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, >>>> my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the >>>> one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was >>>> incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel >>>> very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a >>>> left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. >>>> The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal >>>> communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both >>>> shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run >>>> into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the >>>> silent grab scares me to death! >>>> Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and >>>> will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if >>>> they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let >>>> go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do >>>> that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. >>>> Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person >>>> is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask >>>> someone for information or directions, they will answer my question >>>> and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are >>>> offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they >>>> have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really >>>> appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the >>>> silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do >>>> so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this >>>> has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple >>>> explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab >>>> me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier >>>> for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people >>>> are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but >>>> because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to >>>> provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some >>>> definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have >>>> snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when >>>> crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I >>>> don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above >>>> all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually >>>> more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For >>>> instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist >>>> insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure >>>> was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing >>>> is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes >>>> on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I >>>> had done it myself. >>>> Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about >>>> sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and >>>> walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they >>>> will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow >>>> instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're >>>> behind them than if you're in front of them? >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 14:39:01 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:39:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4EB8B810.2030700@gmail.com> Message-ID: My dad has always tried to lead me by pushing me through doors. I always hated it and would trip in to signs and stuff if he was turned around trying to hold the door open for another behind us. I would tell him not to and to let me go behind him, but he insisted in doing it like this so he could see where it is that i was going. Leading me by me hanging on to him would force me to be behind him and he could not see me. I get people who wants to guide me the way the nurses do to the older in the hospitle, holding my elbow, but I do not like this either, I feel more likely to trip. If I am walking wiht someone and i grab their arm, they grab my hand, I grab their arm again and they go after my hand presistantly , I will either say let me hold your arm, or I am going to hold on to your arm, all in a nice way of course. But some people, like some of the bus drivers who I will ask to walk me in to places that are complicated, like my doctors, will grab my hand and I just go with it a lot of the time. It is how my much younger cuzzins led me, but that was because they were to short for me to hold their arms. One driver held my hand up really high and then ergently told me to slow down, I was walking to fast and step up step up. I had to go to the doctor for applying for a guide dog lately and the new doctor lady insisted on me being on that aweful table instead of the much perfured chair, so she grabbed my hand to make sure I did not get lost in the tiny room and kept telling me to slow down I moved to fast. I guess they think we do that granny walk or something? I do not feel off ballenced so much, but more vollenerble than if I held on to the person the right way. Most people are willing to change to what i want as long as I tell them so. On 11/8/11, Jewel wrote: > Add to that my situation, where touching me can sometimes shoot severe > pain up and down my body (I have fibromyalgia), and you have a recipe > for disaster. When someone grabs me, I stop everything I'm doing and > say "Please don't grab me." If they don't let go, I wrench my arm away > or if they are touching my back (which is a super big no-no with me, > since my spine is super-sensitive thanks to two slipped discs along > with fibromyalgia), I arch my back whether it's painful or not, to > show them that it's not all right to touch. I'll tell you one story of > when grabbing me caused a problem... > > I was walking from the library and my cane was sweeping back and > forth. Suddenly someone came over and grabbed my cane arm and wrenched > me sideways. I shouted in alarm and wrenched my arm away, but my arc > had already been interrupted and I didn't realize that there was a > pole right in front of me. This was one of those metal poles to hold > up a handicapped sign. I hit it full on becaus emy cane's arc had been > interrupted and didn't catch the pole, and now I have a dent in the > upper part of my forehead from that pole. It didn't break the skin, > but I can always feel the dent if I rub my forehead. Plus it caused a > minor concussion. I was soooo embarrassed by it, but realized later > that it wasn't my fault, that it was caused by this person grabbing my > cane arm. Sheessh! > > ~Jewel > > On 11/8/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> LOL! >> My brother guides me all around Walmart, and he likes to go faster >> than I can go. >> He doesn't understand that I can't walk at a normal pace, because of a >> Syatic Nerve problem. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 11/7/11, Sam Hogle wrote: >>> Actually, I've had the opposite problem. For some reason, guides think >>> they have to go slower. The funny thing is they think I can't walk at a >>> normal pace, but they also think I can see the curbs we walk up or down. >>> I will never understand people. >>> On 11/7/2011 11:50 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> Wow! >>>> Arielle, you've been through it! >>>> That's not necessary, that they do those things! >>>> I've been through alot of stuff regarding this, as well. >>>> I've also had guides go faster than I'm accustomed to, and I've >>>> fallen, because they didn't go at my pace. >>>> I always tell people, if they guide me, that they must go at my pace. >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> On 11/7/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being >>>>> grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity >>>>> issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, >>>>> and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or >>>>> propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to >>>>> bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I >>>>> would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, >>>>> many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact >>>>> it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more >>>>> challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip >>>>> in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into >>>>> the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my >>>>> arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop >>>>> arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, >>>>> my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the >>>>> one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was >>>>> incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel >>>>> very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a >>>>> left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. >>>>> The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal >>>>> communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both >>>>> shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run >>>>> into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the >>>>> silent grab scares me to death! >>>>> Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and >>>>> will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if >>>>> they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let >>>>> go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do >>>>> that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. >>>>> Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person >>>>> is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask >>>>> someone for information or directions, they will answer my question >>>>> and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are >>>>> offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they >>>>> have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really >>>>> appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the >>>>> silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do >>>>> so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this >>>>> has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple >>>>> explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab >>>>> me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier >>>>> for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people >>>>> are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but >>>>> because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to >>>>> provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some >>>>> definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have >>>>> snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when >>>>> crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I >>>>> don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above >>>>> all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually >>>>> more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For >>>>> instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist >>>>> insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure >>>>> was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing >>>>> is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes >>>>> on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I >>>>> had done it myself. >>>>> Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about >>>>> sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and >>>>> walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they >>>>> will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow >>>>> instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're >>>>> behind them than if you're in front of them? >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 17:31:43 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 12:31:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs In-Reply-To: <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> References: <-1662185687422470793@unknownmsgid> <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <2585D07E1FAE45B3BE2CC11CB673796F@OwnerPC> How about calling up someone highe up like the vice president or something in adition to writing them. -----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:29 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ignasi Cambra" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs > Just send it to tech-support. They are generally not very helpful though. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:46 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" > wrote: > >> Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the >> CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to >> Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just >> send it to the regular tech support? >> >> Nicole >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 17:51:55 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 12:51:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs In-Reply-To: References: <-1662185687422470793@unknownmsgid> <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <9133290754479065573@unknownmsgid> And then just use window ice and stop complaining. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 8, 2011, at 2:34 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Nicole: > I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but that's nothing new for > me on these lists. > Although I use Jaws, I think Window Eyes is way better! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/8/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a >> bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ignasi Cambra" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs >> >> >>> Just send it to tech-support. They are generally not very helpful though. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:46 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the >>>> CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to >>>> Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just >>>> >>>> send it to the regular tech support? >>>> >>>> Nicole >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 17:50:31 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 12:50:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs In-Reply-To: <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> References: <-1662185687422470793@unknownmsgid> <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <6648625342314686313@unknownmsgid> Yes, that's exactly what they do. They generally fix things and then make you pay for them with the next major upgrade… Sent from my iPhone On Nov 8, 2011, at 2:30 AM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: > That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ignasi Cambra" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:11 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs > > >> Just send it to tech-support. They are generally not very helpful though. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:46 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >> wrote: >> >>> Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just send it to the regular tech support? >>> >>> Nicole >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 18:02:24 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 13:02:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs In-Reply-To: References: <-1662185687422470793@unknownmsgid> <9F036EA1D27D42BF824B49259F65BFD7@stanford.edu> <74B1D209125C4B9581C9B659F03CC0D3@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <2441659470620395155@unknownmsgid> Joshua, Nobody likes waiting on the phone, but when you call a tech-support line that's what happens because there are other people calling besides you. What are they supposed to do? Ask and play whatever type of music that you like? Read the news for you? I've seen you complain about that music on this list at least 10 times, and we all know that you don't like it. But then if instead of music there was just silenced I'm sure you would complain as well because of something else, so I guess you will just be unhappy no matter what they do. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 8, 2011, at 3:00 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > I'm using Jaws 12, right now, and I'm not liking it. > I guess it's because it isn't compatible with my Laptop, (I have an Acer.) > I used Window Eyes in middle school, and loved it. > Things may have changed, but I'd get more assistance from their > support in a timely manner, rather than waiting, and listening to > those long recordings, and the boring music I've complained about on > Jaws's support line. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/8/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> Not at all. *grin* To each his own; whatever works for you. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:32 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs >> >> >>> Nicole: >>> I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but that's nothing new for >>> me on these lists. >>> Although I use Jaws, I think Window Eyes is way better! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 11/8/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >>>> That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a >>>> bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ignasi Cambra" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:11 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs >>>> >>>> >>>>> Just send it to tech-support. They are generally not very helpful >>>>> though. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:46 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the >>>>>> CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS >>>>>> to >>>>>> Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you >>>>>> just >>>>>> >>>>>> send it to the regular tech support? >>>>>> >>>>>> Nicole >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From carlymih at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 18:22:52 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:22:52 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4EB8B810.2030700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111108102037.01cbd858@earthlink.net> Good morning all, One technique that mmy partner who is also blind and and I use is, holding a person's shoulder. This way, the awkward, who is to grab whose arm, is removed. Try it. for today, CarAt 06:39 AM 11/8/2011, Lea williams wrote: >My dad has always tried to lead me by pushing me through doors. I >always hated it and would trip in to signs and stuff if he was turned >around trying to hold the door open for another behind us. I would >tell him not to and to let me go behind him, but he insisted in doing >it like this so he could see where it is that i was going. Leading me >by me hanging on to him would force me to be behind him and he could >not see me. I get people who wants to guide me the way the nurses do >to the older in the hospitle, holding my elbow, but I do not like this >either, I feel more likely to trip. If I am walking wiht someone and i >grab their arm, they grab my hand, I grab their arm again and they go >after my hand presistantly , I will either say let me hold your arm, >or I am going to hold on to your arm, all in a nice way of course. But >some people, like some of the bus drivers who I will ask to walk me in >to places that are complicated, like my doctors, will grab my hand and >I just go with it a lot of the time. It is how my much younger cuzzins >led me, but that was because they were to short for me to hold their >arms. One driver held my hand up really high and then ergently told me >to slow down, I was walking to fast and step up step up. >I had to go to the doctor for applying for a guide dog lately and the >new doctor lady insisted on me being on that aweful table instead of >the much perfured chair, so she grabbed my hand to make sure I did not >get lost in the tiny room and kept telling me to slow down I moved to >fast. I guess they think we do that granny walk or something? >I do not feel off ballenced so much, but more vollenerble than if I >held on to the person the right way. Most people are willing to change >to what i want as long as I tell them so. > >On 11/8/11, Jewel wrote: > > Add to that my situation, where touching me can sometimes shoot severe > > pain up and down my body (I have fibromyalgia), and you have a recipe > > for disaster. When someone grabs me, I stop everything I'm doing and > > say "Please don't grab me." If they don't let go, I wrench my arm away > > or if they are touching my back (which is a super big no-no with me, > > since my spine is super-sensitive thanks to two slipped discs along > > with fibromyalgia), I arch my back whether it's painful or not, to > > show them that it's not all right to touch. I'll tell you one story of > > when grabbing me caused a problem... > > > > I was walking from the library and my cane was sweeping back and > > forth. Suddenly someone came over and grabbed my cane arm and wrenched > > me sideways. I shouted in alarm and wrenched my arm away, but my arc > > had already been interrupted and I didn't realize that there was a > > pole right in front of me. This was one of those metal poles to hold > > up a handicapped sign. I hit it full on becaus emy cane's arc had been > > interrupted and didn't catch the pole, and now I have a dent in the > > upper part of my forehead from that pole. It didn't break the skin, > > but I can always feel the dent if I rub my forehead. Plus it caused a > > minor concussion. I was soooo embarrassed by it, but realized later > > that it wasn't my fault, that it was caused by this person grabbing my > > cane arm. Sheessh! > > > > ~Jewel > > > > On 11/8/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> LOL! > >> My brother guides me all around Walmart, and he likes to go faster > >> than I can go. > >> He doesn't understand that I can't walk at a normal pace, because of a > >> Syatic Nerve problem. > >> Blessings, Joshua > >> > >> On 11/7/11, Sam Hogle wrote: > >>> Actually, I've had the opposite problem. For some reason, guides think > >>> they have to go slower. The funny thing is they think I can't walk at a > >>> normal pace, but they also think I can see the curbs we walk up or down. > >>> I will never understand people. > >>> On 11/7/2011 11:50 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >>>> Wow! > >>>> Arielle, you've been through it! > >>>> That's not necessary, that they do those things! > >>>> I've been through alot of stuff regarding this, as well. > >>>> I've also had guides go faster than I'm accustomed to, and I've > >>>> fallen, because they didn't go at my pace. > >>>> I always tell people, if they guide me, that they must go at my pace. > >>>> Blessings, Joshua > >>>> > >>>> On 11/7/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>>>> Hi all, > >>>>> I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being > >>>>> grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity > >>>>> issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, > >>>>> and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or > >>>>> propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to > >>>>> bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I > >>>>> would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, > >>>>> many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact > >>>>> it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more > >>>>> challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip > >>>>> in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into > >>>>> the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my > >>>>> arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop > >>>>> arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, > >>>>> my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the > >>>>> one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was > >>>>> incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel > >>>>> very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a > >>>>> left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. > >>>>> The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal > >>>>> communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both > >>>>> shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run > >>>>> into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the > >>>>> silent grab scares me to death! > >>>>> Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and > >>>>> will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if > >>>>> they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let > >>>>> go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do > >>>>> that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. > >>>>> Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person > >>>>> is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask > >>>>> someone for information or directions, they will answer my question > >>>>> and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are > >>>>> offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they > >>>>> have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really > >>>>> appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the > >>>>> silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do > >>>>> so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this > >>>>> has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple > >>>>> explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab > >>>>> me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier > >>>>> for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people > >>>>> are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but > >>>>> because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to > >>>>> provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some > >>>>> definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have > >>>>> snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when > >>>>> crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I > >>>>> don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above > >>>>> all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually > >>>>> more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For > >>>>> instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist > >>>>> insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure > >>>>> was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing > >>>>> is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes > >>>>> on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I > >>>>> had done it myself. > >>>>> Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about > >>>>> sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and > >>>>> walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they > >>>>> will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow > >>>>> instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're > >>>>> behind them than if you're in front of them? > >>>>> Best, > >>>>> Arielle > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Lea Williams > >Phone; >704-732-4470 >Skipe; >Lea.williams738 >Facebook >http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 18:51:10 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 13:51:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111108102037.01cbd858@earthlink.net> References: <4EB8B810.2030700@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20111108102037.01cbd858@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I touch someone's shoulder when I know where I'm going but want to stick with someone, such as a friend or my boyfriend. It makes it clear that I'm not using them as a sighted guide and they don't have to look out for me, but it is also clear that we are walking together. When doing sighted guide, I only take someone's shoulder if they are much shorter than me, such as a child (though I've only done this with one person, and she wasn't a child). ~Jewewl On 11/8/11, Carly wrote: > > Good morning all, > > One technique that mmy partner who is also blind and and I use is, > holding a person's shoulder. This way, the awkward, who is to grab > whose arm, is removed. Try it. > for today, > CarAt 06:39 AM 11/8/2011, Lea williams wrote: >>My dad has always tried to lead me by pushing me through doors. I >>always hated it and would trip in to signs and stuff if he was turned >>around trying to hold the door open for another behind us. I would >>tell him not to and to let me go behind him, but he insisted in doing >>it like this so he could see where it is that i was going. Leading me >>by me hanging on to him would force me to be behind him and he could >>not see me. I get people who wants to guide me the way the nurses do >>to the older in the hospitle, holding my elbow, but I do not like this >>either, I feel more likely to trip. If I am walking wiht someone and i >>grab their arm, they grab my hand, I grab their arm again and they go >>after my hand presistantly , I will either say let me hold your arm, >>or I am going to hold on to your arm, all in a nice way of course. But >>some people, like some of the bus drivers who I will ask to walk me in >>to places that are complicated, like my doctors, will grab my hand and >>I just go with it a lot of the time. It is how my much younger cuzzins >>led me, but that was because they were to short for me to hold their >>arms. One driver held my hand up really high and then ergently told me >>to slow down, I was walking to fast and step up step up. >>I had to go to the doctor for applying for a guide dog lately and the >>new doctor lady insisted on me being on that aweful table instead of >>the much perfured chair, so she grabbed my hand to make sure I did not >>get lost in the tiny room and kept telling me to slow down I moved to >>fast. I guess they think we do that granny walk or something? >>I do not feel off ballenced so much, but more vollenerble than if I >>held on to the person the right way. Most people are willing to change >>to what i want as long as I tell them so. >> >>On 11/8/11, Jewel wrote: >> > Add to that my situation, where touching me can sometimes shoot severe >> > pain up and down my body (I have fibromyalgia), and you have a recipe >> > for disaster. When someone grabs me, I stop everything I'm doing and >> > say "Please don't grab me." If they don't let go, I wrench my arm away >> > or if they are touching my back (which is a super big no-no with me, >> > since my spine is super-sensitive thanks to two slipped discs along >> > with fibromyalgia), I arch my back whether it's painful or not, to >> > show them that it's not all right to touch. I'll tell you one story of >> > when grabbing me caused a problem... >> > >> > I was walking from the library and my cane was sweeping back and >> > forth. Suddenly someone came over and grabbed my cane arm and wrenched >> > me sideways. I shouted in alarm and wrenched my arm away, but my arc >> > had already been interrupted and I didn't realize that there was a >> > pole right in front of me. This was one of those metal poles to hold >> > up a handicapped sign. I hit it full on becaus emy cane's arc had been >> > interrupted and didn't catch the pole, and now I have a dent in the >> > upper part of my forehead from that pole. It didn't break the skin, >> > but I can always feel the dent if I rub my forehead. Plus it caused a >> > minor concussion. I was soooo embarrassed by it, but realized later >> > that it wasn't my fault, that it was caused by this person grabbing my >> > cane arm. Sheessh! >> > >> > ~Jewel >> > >> > On 11/8/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> LOL! >> >> My brother guides me all around Walmart, and he likes to go faster >> >> than I can go. >> >> He doesn't understand that I can't walk at a normal pace, because of a >> >> Syatic Nerve problem. >> >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> >> On 11/7/11, Sam Hogle wrote: >> >>> Actually, I've had the opposite problem. For some reason, guides think >> >>> they have to go slower. The funny thing is they think I can't walk at >> >>> a >> >>> normal pace, but they also think I can see the curbs we walk up or >> >>> down. >> >>> I will never understand people. >> >>> On 11/7/2011 11:50 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >>>> Wow! >> >>>> Arielle, you've been through it! >> >>>> That's not necessary, that they do those things! >> >>>> I've been through alot of stuff regarding this, as well. >> >>>> I've also had guides go faster than I'm accustomed to, and I've >> >>>> fallen, because they didn't go at my pace. >> >>>> I always tell people, if they guide me, that they must go at my pace. >> >>>> Blessings, Joshua >> >>>> >> >>>> On 11/7/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >>>>> Hi all, >> >>>>> I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being >> >>>>> grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity >> >>>>> issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, >> >>>>> and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or >> >>>>> propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were >> >>>>> to >> >>>>> bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I >> >>>>> would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, >> >>>>> many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in >> >>>>> fact >> >>>>> it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more >> >>>>> challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting >> >>>>> trip >> >>>>> in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into >> >>>>> the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my >> >>>>> arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to >> >>>>> stop >> >>>>> arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting >> >>>>> in, >> >>>>> my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the >> >>>>> one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was >> >>>>> incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel >> >>>>> very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a >> >>>>> left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. >> >>>>> The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal >> >>>>> communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both >> >>>>> shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to >> >>>>> run >> >>>>> into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, >> >>>>> the >> >>>>> silent grab scares me to death! >> >>>>> Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and >> >>>>> will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if >> >>>>> they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let >> >>>>> go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do >> >>>>> that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. >> >>>>> Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind >> >>>>> person >> >>>>> is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask >> >>>>> someone for information or directions, they will answer my question >> >>>>> and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they >> >>>>> are >> >>>>> offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them >> >>>>> they >> >>>>> have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really >> >>>>> appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the >> >>>>> silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to >> >>>>> do >> >>>>> so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this >> >>>>> has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple >> >>>>> explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't >> >>>>> grab >> >>>>> me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's >> >>>>> easier >> >>>>> for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people >> >>>>> are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but >> >>>>> because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to >> >>>>> provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some >> >>>>> definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have >> >>>>> snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when >> >>>>> crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I >> >>>>> don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above >> >>>>> all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually >> >>>>> more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For >> >>>>> instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the >> >>>>> pedicurist >> >>>>> insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure >> >>>>> was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. >> >>>>> Thing >> >>>>> is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes >> >>>>> on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if >> >>>>> I >> >>>>> had done it myself. >> >>>>> Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused >> >>>>> about >> >>>>> sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow >> >>>>> and >> >>>>> walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they >> >>>>> will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow >> >>>>> instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're >> >>>>> behind them than if you're in front of them? >> >>>>> Best, >> >>>>> Arielle >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> >>>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >>-- >>Lea Williams >> >>Phone; >>704-732-4470 >>Skipe; >>Lea.williams738 >>Facebook >>http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From brownbears at mchsi.com Tue Nov 8 19:12:45 2011 From: brownbears at mchsi.com (Miranda Morse) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 13:12:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course Message-ID: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> Hi Everyone, For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about doing that? Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone successfully used a PDF format for this course. Miranda From iperrault at hotmail.com Tue Nov 8 19:42:56 2011 From: iperrault at hotmail.com (Ian Perrault) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 14:42:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> Message-ID: Hi I'm also having similar problems, taking a graduate level Statistics course. Although when I attempted it, it was much better to get the book in braille, because of all of the diagrams. The biggest problem was using this program called SPSS, and if you're lucky, you won't have to use it. I'm actually taking some time off, since it's not accessible right now, but hopefully it will get to that point. Ian -----Original Message----- From: Miranda Morse Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course Hi Everyone, For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about doing that? Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone successfully used a PDF format for this course. Miranda _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iperrault%40hotmail.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 19:47:28 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 14:47:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> Message-ID: I am also interested in learning the best ways to take a statistics class. This coming semester, I'm taking a refresher course in itermediate algebra, and then I'll need to take Statistics. Anyone hve good (or bad) experiences wit alternative techniques in Statistics? On 11/8/11, Miranda Morse wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about > doing that? > > Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone successfully > used a PDF format for this course. > > Miranda > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From mpeskoe at insightbb.com Tue Nov 8 20:09:55 2011 From: mpeskoe at insightbb.com (Melanie Peskoe) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 15:09:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> Message-ID: <00dc01cc9e52$625953f0$270bfbd0$@insightbb.com> I'm currently taking a graduate level statistics course. I read large print so I use a CCTV read the book. I hired a tutor who is a graduate student concentrating in statistics. She and I work on the material twice a week for about 2.5 hours each session. She shows me things on a whiteboard that I can stand right in front of. One thing that I have found very helpful is searching for topics on You Tube. There are several statistics professors who have done video lessons and they have been very helpful. If I can be of any help please let me know. Melanie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ian Perrault Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Statistics Course Hi I'm also having similar problems, taking a graduate level Statistics course. Although when I attempted it, it was much better to get the book in braille, because of all of the diagrams. The biggest problem was using this program called SPSS, and if you're lucky, you won't have to use it. I'm actually taking some time off, since it's not accessible right now, but hopefully it will get to that point. Ian -----Original Message----- From: Miranda Morse Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course Hi Everyone, For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about doing that? Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone successfully used a PDF format for this course. Miranda _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iperrault%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mpeskoe%40insightbb.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 20:56:58 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 13:56:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: <00dc01cc9e52$625953f0$270bfbd0$@insightbb.com> References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> <00dc01cc9e52$625953f0$270bfbd0$@insightbb.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I am totally blind and I've taken four statistics courses for my experimental psych program-two undergraduate and two graduate. I also tutor sighted students in intro stats. When I have more time I will post in more detail about the techniques I used; however, if you want to talk one-on-one, feel free to call me at 602-502-2255 Also, a couple weeks ago I sent out a link to a free, accessible online stats calculator. I will re-send the link in my longer reply, but if you still have that email or see it in the archives, I'd encourage you to look at the link I sent. Perhaps your professor will let you use this calculator instead of SPSS or other programs that are less accessible. Best, Arielle On 11/8/11, Melanie Peskoe wrote: > I'm currently taking a graduate level statistics course. I read large print > so I use a CCTV read the book. I hired a tutor who is a graduate student > concentrating in statistics. She and I work on the material twice a week for > about 2.5 hours each session. She shows me things on a whiteboard that I can > stand right in front of. One thing that I have found very helpful is > searching for topics on You Tube. There are several statistics professors > who have done video lessons and they have been very helpful. If I can be of > any help please let me know. > Melanie > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Ian Perrault > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:43 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Statistics Course > > > Hi > I'm also having similar problems, taking a graduate level Statistics course. > > Although when I attempted it, it was much better to get the book in braille, > because of all of the diagrams. The biggest problem was using this program > called SPSS, and if you're lucky, you won't have to use it. I'm actually > taking some time off, since it's not accessible right now, but hopefully it > will get to that point. > Ian > > -----Original Message----- > From: Miranda Morse > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:12 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course > > Hi Everyone, > > For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about > doing that? > > Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone successfully > used a PDF format for this course. > > Miranda > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iperrault%40hotmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mpeskoe%40insightbb.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jty727 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 20:57:29 2011 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 15:57:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Calenders Message-ID: Hi All, Question for you. Do any of you use the online calenders? If so could you recommend which works best with JAWS? I ask because I am looking for an online calender which will help me become more organized with a busy schedule. The google calender is not that great from what I know so I thought I'd ask for help on this one. Thanks for any and all suggestions/leads. Justin From aec732 at msn.com Tue Nov 8 22:29:43 2011 From: aec732 at msn.com (Annemarie Cooke) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 17:29:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] To Jewel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jewel, seems like advertising to blind folks takes place the same way advertising to any niche market does. Ad and news releases go into publications such as the Braille Monitor; posted to listserves; and generally get passed along by word of mouth in our community. Advertisers make placements after figuring out which media best reach their demographic. In our case, advertisers also show their suppor of our community by exhibiting and making presentations at conferences and meetings and by having websites accessible to the assistive technology we use. In response to your question, ACB radio is an internet broadcast; additional info at www.acb.org Not sure about audience size.... Hope this info is useful. Bestm,\ Annemarie Cooke Learning Ally Princeton, NJ From pgradioman at hotmail.com Tue Nov 8 23:23:52 2011 From: pgradioman at hotmail.com (Preston Gaylor) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 17:23:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: References: <8F484F4D8DFB4F51B26E06E90D0065AC@stanford.edu>, <4eb37506.e76e340a.738a.7d8c@mx.google.com>, <000301cc9b05$4f6d32c0$ee479840$@suddenlink.net>, , <4EB419F3.5040505@gmail.com>, Message-ID: I agree with you Sam. Sometimes my Jaws doesn't corriapate with me on FB as well. I guess that's why I have windows vista. Preston > Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 21:14:44 -0500 > From: clb5590 at gmail.com > To: shogle at students.kennesaw.edu; nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) > > I like the mobile site, but when it comes to things like looking at > pictures, any captions people write for pictures are not on the mobile > site. Also, can you tag people or places on the mobile site? I try the > same way it is done on the regular site, putting an @ sign before, but > it does not work. > > Thanks. > > Cindy > > On 11/4/11, Sam Hogle wrote: > > I agree that it can be used. However, my issues with it have been that > > it doesn't allways want to cooperate with Jaws when it comes to me > > trying to post stuff since what I'm posting comes up way than slower > > than my typing speed, I can't easily view my news feed, and there is > > just too much crap on the page in general. That last complaint may not > > be as valid since I'm what you might call a light user. I update my > > stattus and profile on a regular basis, but I'm not interested in any of > > the games, which I hear are not at all accessable. So, the mobile sight > > has allways been way better for me. But, we're all different, so what > > works for some won't work for all. > > On 11/4/2011 11:47 AM, Brice Smith wrote: > >> The mobile site simply does not have the same functionality as the > >> regular site. This is not a problem if you are a light user, but > >> anyone needing to use more advanced functions on the site will have to > >> use the regular version. > >> > >> That said, I really don't find the regular version all that > >> inaccessible and don't understand the complaints about Facebook. While > >> I don't use Facebook much as an individual, I manage and update the > >> page for the organization I work with. I can post updates, link to > >> other organizations and pages much like twitter within statuses, > >> manage photos, and do just about everything else I'm required to > >> complete. What problems are you all experiencing? > >> > >> Brice > >> > >> On 11/4/11, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > >>> I definitely agree with Rania. I'm sure there are more options and such > >>> on > >>> the regular facebook site, but I find the mobile one very accessible :) > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>> Behalf > >>> Of Rania Ismail CMT > >>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 AM > >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there > >>> of) > >>> > >>> I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular > >>> site as a jaws user. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>> Behalf > >>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > >>> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM > >>> To: NABS-L > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) > >>> > >>> Excuse me if this is off topic. > >>> If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook > >>> page > >>> with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? > >>> On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an > >>> acceptable > >>> alternative to having an accessible site? > >>> > >>> Nicole > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > >>> m > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40suddenl > >>> ink.net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > 828.989.5383 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40hotmail.com From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 23:40:53 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 18:40:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> Message-ID: <4E251085B19646579FD803601FB34277@Cptr233> I am currently enrolled in a statistics course. My college brailled the necessary parts of the book that I needed. I could have not done it without the book being brailled. So if I were to say the things that will make you successful in a statistics course, are: brailled book, accessible statistic calculater, and perhaps a tutor that can help you understand the graphics, diagrams and the like. I would say, you will need to push your college or university to Braille the book. Don't give up, because they will and can do it. Mine said they could not, but I made a good case in that it would help me understand the materials better. Good luck! Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miranda Morse Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:13 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course Hi Everyone, For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about doing that? Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone successfully used a PDF format for this course. Miranda _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmail.co m __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6612 (20111108) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6612 (20111108) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 23:59:13 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 18:59:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Calenders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey I use my calendar with my gmail account. Then I have an Iphone that I can look at my calendar events. It works best to use the gmail calendar threw fire fox instead of internet Explorer. I also have it send me an email everyday with the tasks. This works well. You can have the calendar pushed to any celphone or ipod etc... On 11/8/11, Justin Young wrote: > Hi All, > > Question for you. Do any of you use the online calenders? If so > could you recommend which works best with JAWS? I ask because I am > looking for an online calender which will help me become more > organized with a busy schedule. The google calender is not that great > from what I know so I thought I'd ask for help on this one. > > Thanks for any and all suggestions/leads. > > Justin > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 00:37:35 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:37:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Calenders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you are just looking to get more organized, you might consider DaybyDay Professional, a planner/calendar from www.blindsoftware.com. I've been using it for several years and it was created with JAWS in mind, so has great shortcut keys and everything! ~Jewel On 11/8/11, Lea williams wrote: > Hey I use my calendar with my gmail account. Then I have an Iphone > that I can look at my calendar events. It works best to use the gmail > calendar threw fire fox instead of internet Explorer. > I also have it send me an email everyday with the tasks. This works > well. You can have the calendar pushed to any celphone or ipod etc... > > On 11/8/11, Justin Young wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Question for you. Do any of you use the online calenders? If so >> could you recommend which works best with JAWS? I ask because I am >> looking for an online calender which will help me become more >> organized with a busy schedule. The google calender is not that great >> from what I know so I thought I'd ask for help on this one. >> >> Thanks for any and all suggestions/leads. >> >> Justin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Lea Williams > > Phone; > 704-732-4470 > Skipe; > Lea.williams738 > Facebook > http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Nov 9 02:08:43 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 20:08:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arielle, Don't feel bad about losing your calm with people who grab you especially those who silently grab. Any other situation, this would be called harassment, but because we are blind, it suddenly turns into charity. I'll hit strangers who grab me. I don't know what their intentions are, and it's just a gut reaction. I don't purposely go around seeking people to beat up on, but if a complete stranger grabs me, my natural instinct is to protect myself. Physical contact is one thing I don't think we need be diplomatic and patient with. No one has the right to touch us even if out of kindness. Does not common sense dictate that if I'm out on my own I'm probably okay and don't require assistance? Grabbing, or touching in any way, is crossing a line, and we shouldn't feel bad about reacting. As I said, especially for women, in any other context, grabbing a person would constitute to harassment. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter bpollpeter at hotmail.com LiveWellNebraska.com From brlsurfer at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 02:17:45 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:17:45 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. Message-ID: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d@mx.google.com> So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting for myself. What are your thoughts on this? Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter References: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Vejas, It sounds like you did all the right things. If you told this guy you were good and he still kept trying to help you and you told him again, there's nothing wrong with that. While I haven't had the exact same problem that you had, I can't tell you the number of times that people come up to me on the street corner and try to help me cross. More often than not, the person talks just as the cars I'm listening for pull out, so by trying to help, they're actually being more of a hinderance. I always try and remain positive and upbeat with these people though and I calmly and politely explain that, no thanks, I don't need their help. I find this works better than getting mad about it. Most people mean well and want to do the right thing, but they just have the wrong way of going about it. If we, that is to say the blind community, can keep our cool when these people come up in our daily lives, we'll wind up helping both us and them. Us in that the next blind person one of these sighted people meets, they will know what to do or not do and not do any of the things that we've been talking about in this thread. And them in that we will be able to educate people and make them more understanding. This in turn comes back to my previous statement about remaining positive. Because blind people are a minority, sighted people don't encounter too many of us. If we always get mad right away, we'll wind up alienating more people than we make friends with. Case and point: Once a guy came up to me while I was learning my college's campus and asked if I needed help getting to a particular place. I told him no, we got to talking, and now we're really good friends. Hence, the importance of being positive. Well, that was a lot more than I originally intended to write, but that's my opinion. Patrick On 11/8/11, vejas wrote: > So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a > freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing > my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he > didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My > aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting > for myself. What are your thoughts on this? > Vejas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Student Division Date sent: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 20:08:43 -0600 > Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. > > > Arielle, > > Don't feel bad about losing your calm with people who grab you > especially those who silently grab. Any other situation, this > would be called harassment, but because we are blind, it suddenly > turns into charity. I'll hit strangers who grab me. I don't > know what their intentions are, and it's just a gut reaction. I > don't purposely go around seeking people to beat up on, but if a > complete stranger grabs me, my natural instinct is to protect > myself. Physical contact is one thing I don't think we need be > diplomatic and patient with. No one has the right to touch us > even if out of kindness. Does not common sense dictate that if > I'm out on my own I'm probably okay and don't require assistance? > Grabbing, or touching in any way, is crossing a line, and we > shouldn't feel bad about reacting. As I said, especially for > women, in any other context, grabbing a person would constitute > to harassment. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > bpollpeter at hotmail.com > > LiveWellNebraska.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From jty727 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 02:42:57 2011 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 21:42:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Calenders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for this Jewel! Sounds exactly what I am looking for! On 11/8/11, Jewel wrote: > If you are just looking to get more organized, you might consider > DaybyDay Professional, a planner/calendar from www.blindsoftware.com. > I've been using it for several years and it was created with JAWS in > mind, so has great shortcut keys and everything! > > ~Jewel > > On 11/8/11, Lea williams wrote: >> Hey I use my calendar with my gmail account. Then I have an Iphone >> that I can look at my calendar events. It works best to use the gmail >> calendar threw fire fox instead of internet Explorer. >> I also have it send me an email everyday with the tasks. This works >> well. You can have the calendar pushed to any celphone or ipod etc... >> >> On 11/8/11, Justin Young wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Question for you. Do any of you use the online calenders? If so >>> could you recommend which works best with JAWS? I ask because I am >>> looking for an online calender which will help me become more >>> organized with a busy schedule. The google calender is not that great >>> from what I know so I thought I'd ask for help on this one. >>> >>> Thanks for any and all suggestions/leads. >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Lea Williams >> >> Phone; >> 704-732-4470 >> Skipe; >> Lea.williams738 >> Facebook >> http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 03:51:35 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 20:51:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: OMG don't get me started about people trying to talk to me while I am crossing the street or waiting to do so. I didn't get good training or practice with street crossing until just a few years ago, so I find crossing big streets or unfamiliar intersections takes a lot of focus and concentration. I will usually say "I need you to be quiet so I can hear traffic" if people try to converse and this also works fairly well. Best, Arielle On 11/8/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Vejas, > It sounds like you did all the right things. If you told this guy you > were good and he still kept trying to help you and you told him again, > there's nothing wrong with that. While I haven't had the exact same > problem that you had, I can't tell you the number of times that people > come up to me on the street corner and try to help me cross. More > often than not, the person talks just as the cars I'm listening for > pull out, so by trying to help, they're actually being more of a > hinderance. I always try and remain positive and upbeat with these > people though and I calmly and politely explain that, no thanks, I > don't need their help. I find this works better than getting mad about > it. Most people mean well and want to do the right thing, but they > just have the wrong way of going about it. If we, that is to say the > blind community, can keep our cool when these people come up in our > daily lives, we'll wind up helping both us and them. Us in that the > next blind person one of these sighted people meets, they will know > what to do or not do and not do any of the things that we've been > talking about in this thread. And them in that we will be able to > educate people and make them more understanding. This in turn comes > back to my previous statement about remaining positive. Because blind > people are a minority, sighted people don't encounter too many of us. > If we always get mad right away, we'll wind up alienating more people > than we make friends with. Case and point: Once a guy came up to me > while I was learning my college's campus and asked if I needed help > getting to a particular place. I told him no, we got to talking, and > now we're really good friends. Hence, the importance of being > positive. Well, that was a lot more than I originally intended to > write, but that's my opinion. > Patrick > > On 11/8/11, vejas wrote: >> So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a >> freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing >> my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he >> didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My >> aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting >> for myself. What are your thoughts on this? >> Vejas >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: Student Division > Date sent: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 20:08:43 -0600 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >> >> >> Arielle, >> >> Don't feel bad about losing your calm with people who grab you >> especially those who silently grab. Any other situation, this >> would be called harassment, but because we are blind, it suddenly >> turns into charity. I'll hit strangers who grab me. I don't >> know what their intentions are, and it's just a gut reaction. I >> don't purposely go around seeking people to beat up on, but if a >> complete stranger grabs me, my natural instinct is to protect >> myself. Physical contact is one thing I don't think we need be >> diplomatic and patient with. No one has the right to touch us >> even if out of kindness. Does not common sense dictate that if >> I'm out on my own I'm probably okay and don't require assistance? >> Grabbing, or touching in any way, is crossing a line, and we >> shouldn't feel bad about reacting. As I said, especially for >> women, in any other context, grabbing a person would constitute >> to harassment. >> >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> bpollpeter at hotmail.com >> >> LiveWellNebraska.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 03:53:28 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 20:53:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Calenders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is Google Calendar accessible with JAWS if you use Firefox? Best, Arielle On 11/8/11, Justin Young wrote: > Thanks for this Jewel! Sounds exactly what I am looking for! > > On 11/8/11, Jewel wrote: >> If you are just looking to get more organized, you might consider >> DaybyDay Professional, a planner/calendar from www.blindsoftware.com. >> I've been using it for several years and it was created with JAWS in >> mind, so has great shortcut keys and everything! >> >> ~Jewel >> >> On 11/8/11, Lea williams wrote: >>> Hey I use my calendar with my gmail account. Then I have an Iphone >>> that I can look at my calendar events. It works best to use the gmail >>> calendar threw fire fox instead of internet Explorer. >>> I also have it send me an email everyday with the tasks. This works >>> well. You can have the calendar pushed to any celphone or ipod etc... >>> >>> On 11/8/11, Justin Young wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> Question for you. Do any of you use the online calenders? If so >>>> could you recommend which works best with JAWS? I ask because I am >>>> looking for an online calender which will help me become more >>>> organized with a busy schedule. The google calender is not that great >>>> from what I know so I thought I'd ask for help on this one. >>>> >>>> Thanks for any and all suggestions/leads. >>>> >>>> Justin >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Lea Williams >>> >>> Phone; >>> 704-732-4470 >>> Skipe; >>> Lea.williams738 >>> Facebook >>> http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 04:10:14 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot to be desired (if desired at all.) Patrick On 11/8/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > OMG don't get me started about people trying to talk to me while I am > crossing the street or waiting to do so. I didn't get good training or > practice with street crossing until just a few years ago, so I find > crossing big streets or unfamiliar intersections takes a lot of focus > and concentration. I will usually say "I need you to be quiet so I can > hear traffic" if people try to converse and this also works fairly > well. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/8/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Vejas, >> It sounds like you did all the right things. If you told this guy you >> were good and he still kept trying to help you and you told him again, >> there's nothing wrong with that. While I haven't had the exact same >> problem that you had, I can't tell you the number of times that people >> come up to me on the street corner and try to help me cross. More >> often than not, the person talks just as the cars I'm listening for >> pull out, so by trying to help, they're actually being more of a >> hinderance. I always try and remain positive and upbeat with these >> people though and I calmly and politely explain that, no thanks, I >> don't need their help. I find this works better than getting mad about >> it. Most people mean well and want to do the right thing, but they >> just have the wrong way of going about it. If we, that is to say the >> blind community, can keep our cool when these people come up in our >> daily lives, we'll wind up helping both us and them. Us in that the >> next blind person one of these sighted people meets, they will know >> what to do or not do and not do any of the things that we've been >> talking about in this thread. And them in that we will be able to >> educate people and make them more understanding. This in turn comes >> back to my previous statement about remaining positive. Because blind >> people are a minority, sighted people don't encounter too many of us. >> If we always get mad right away, we'll wind up alienating more people >> than we make friends with. Case and point: Once a guy came up to me >> while I was learning my college's campus and asked if I needed help >> getting to a particular place. I told him no, we got to talking, and >> now we're really good friends. Hence, the importance of being >> positive. Well, that was a lot more than I originally intended to >> write, but that's my opinion. >> Patrick >> >> On 11/8/11, vejas wrote: >>> So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a >>> freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing >>> my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he >>> didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My >>> aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting >>> for myself. What are your thoughts on this? >>> Vejas >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> To: Student Division >> Date sent: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 20:08:43 -0600 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >>> >>> >>> Arielle, >>> >>> Don't feel bad about losing your calm with people who grab you >>> especially those who silently grab. Any other situation, this >>> would be called harassment, but because we are blind, it suddenly >>> turns into charity. I'll hit strangers who grab me. I don't >>> know what their intentions are, and it's just a gut reaction. I >>> don't purposely go around seeking people to beat up on, but if a >>> complete stranger grabs me, my natural instinct is to protect >>> myself. Physical contact is one thing I don't think we need be >>> diplomatic and patient with. No one has the right to touch us >>> even if out of kindness. Does not common sense dictate that if >>> I'm out on my own I'm probably okay and don't require assistance? >>> Grabbing, or touching in any way, is crossing a line, and we >>> shouldn't feel bad about reacting. As I said, especially for >>> women, in any other context, grabbing a person would constitute >>> to harassment. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>> bpollpeter at hotmail.com >>> >>> LiveWellNebraska.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 04:37:47 2011 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 20:37:47 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Hope | Wapato man learns to live without sight, Yakima Herald-Republic, November 5, 2011 Message-ID: <1F2970850D51485F894BA662DF2947DE@HUMBERTOAVILA> Hello All. I thought this might be very interesting to share with you. It is an article from the Yakima Herald Republic from Yakima, Washington link: http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories/2011/11/05/blind-hope-wapato-man-learns -to-live-without-sight?utm_source=feedburner &utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+yhronlinenews+%28Yakima+Herald-Republi c+Today%27s+News%29 Text: Tracy Sanchez listens to traffic as he navigates his way from the Washington State Department of Services for the Blind to a nearby library as part of his mobility course on Wednesday, Sept. 14, 2011. Although Sanchez still has some sight, he does the assignment wearing glasses that have been painted black, so he can't see at all in order to hone the skills he will someday need as his vision fades. SEATTLE, Wash. -- He has blind faith -- faith in his teachers and classmates, faith that he can do anything. Even if the world around him is almost completely black. Because for Tracy "Dino" Sanchez of Wapato, believing is seeing. Sanchez is legally blind and rapidly losing any remaining eyesight. The 45 year old was diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa nearly 20 years ago, a genetic disorder that leads to incurable blindness. Because it's a progressive condition, Sanchez is preparing for the day -- "the doctor says it could be tomorrow, a year or 20 years" -- when he won't be able to see at all. And that has brought him to Seattle, where he's enrolled in a vocational rehabilitation program at the state Department of Services for the Blind. He's memorizing Braille, mastering computer skills, typing 25 words a minute and learning to maneuver around the kitchen. He's even wielded a 9-inch radial arm saw. And in the process, he's envisioning a brighter future. For years Sanchez was able to make do, not giving in to the disability that was inevitably going to catch up with him. An enrolled Yakama tribal member, after graduating from Wapato High School, he dabbled in a variety of careers, starting with sailing on a crab boat in Alaska, then working in sales, casinos and construction. It was during one of his building jobs that he realized he could no longer discern objects outdoors in sunlight. "I started to notice that my vision was getting worse," he recalls. "My enemy became those yellow signs that say 'wet floor.' I would always knock into them. But I was in denial for years." As it became increasingly more difficult to work, Sanchez qualified for Social Security disability payments. In many ways, that made him more pessimistic. "I felt hopeless and helpless," he says. However, Social Security personnel referred him to the Yakima office of the Department of Services for the Blind, and that was the beginning of his renaissance. Although skeptical, he decided to enroll in the training center run by the blind services in Seattle. He realized he needed to learn how to function if and when he becomes totally blind. That didn't make the transition any smoother, though. "When I first came, I was broken and angry. I couldn't drive," he says. "I thought, 'What am I going to do now?'" And then he saw the light. "I got my hopes up," he says, after finding out that the center helps develop skills to live independently and be successfully employed. "People who lose their vision have to learn to do things differently," explains Keiko Namekata, training center program manager. "Our world is defined by what we see, so people who don't function visually have to learn to compensate and fill in the gaps." Training takes between 25-30 weeks. Students attend classes from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m., five days a week. Of the seven instructors, three are blind or visually impaired. An average of 20 students attend at a time. The program is free to the students, funded through state and federal monies. The cost of fully training a student is about $11,000. Namekata, who lost her sight as a youngster due to a degenerative disease, says, "We focus on matching each person with a job that utilizes their skills, interests and talents, so they'll be successful for the long term." A divorced father with three children and three grandchildren, Sanchez started at the training center last spring. "Everything I do here boosts my confidence," he notes. One recent day, Sanchez was getting ready for a test in his mobility class. (Instructor Mary Lorenz calls it "How to get there and back.") Sanchez's homework was to research the location of the neighborhood library and telephone to ask about steps and the entry way. With that complete, he grabs his cane and dons dark, light-blocking glasses and begins walking down a hill three blocks to the library. Lorenz follows a discreet distance behind. He stops at a crosswalk, ears cocked. "I listen for traffic. I know when it stops and goes, and I go with it," he says. He rotates his cane over the width of the sidewalk, feeling for the curb. He's doing well, but there is treachery ahead: cracks and bumps in the cement. He negotiates those successfully, but he's fooled by a side path that veers from the main sidewalk into a park. He follows briefly, then pauses. "He realizes the traffic sounds are gone," his teacher says, sotto voce. Once Sanchez figures out his mistake, he rights himself and easily makes it to the library. He's especially pleased that he wasn't fooled by a nearby parking lot that he has mistakenly strayed into on four previous trips. "I beat the parking lot!" he cheers. Later, he reflects, "It doesn't matter if you wander off. What matters is if you get out of it." Lorenz gives him high marks. "You have good problem-solving skills. You're curious and alert." With that successful foray, Sanchez will be readying himself for the final exam, which involves traveling in a bus to downtown Seattle, entering a building through a revolving door, riding an escalator and returning to the school. He's already cooked an eight-course meal from scratch, including ribs, baked beans and potato salad -- all the while wearing his dark eye coverings. That was in his home economics class, where he also mastered sewing, house cleaning, ironing and doing laundry. Again, without being able to see what he was doing. Instructor Donna Lawrence points out, "Our whole goal is independence." She adds, "(Sanchez) got so excited to cook; he'd never done it before. He's so inspiring, a stellar person." Lawrence isn't the only one who finds Sanchez's enthusiasm infectious. Classmate Tim Brown notes, "Dino is one of those guys who draws people in. He's very gifted." Sanchez's final class of the day is wood shop, where he's making a headboard for his bed. Relying on instinct and instructor Bronson Goo's guidance, he uses a router to carve a notch along an oak board. Sanchez has taken on a leadership role during his training, serving as president of the student body. He works closely on school projects with another Lower Valley resident, Monica Salazar, from Granger. Also legally blind, Salazar eventually hopes to become a massage therapist or work in a preschool. Sanchez plans next to pursue a degree in business management. Ultimately, he hopes to own his own business. He's not sure what yet, but he's sure of one thing: "I could have been one of those guys who took social security disability and done nothing else. But," he emphasizes, "I want to live. "I think I make the guy standing on the corner holding a cardboard sign look bad because I'm doing something for myself." That doesn't mean he's immune to down times, yearning for enough vision to choose any job he wants. "I wouldn't wish this on anybody. I really enjoyed construction jobs, working outside and getting dirty. I wish I still could do that." Yet most people who know Sanchez remark on his determination and charm, rather than his waning eyesight. "He's a wonderful person, such a great personality," says Anna Marrs, a rehabilitation tech in the Yakima office of the services for the blind. She points out that when Sanchez settles on a career, he'll be joining many other visually impaired people employed in the state. She notes that 147 people with low vision found jobs in Washington last year. Sanchez fully intends to boost that number. "Life is always going to bring you down. But it's your choice to get up and do something about it." From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 14:49:01 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 09:49:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Calenders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You're very welcome, Justin. I certainly found it gto be just what I needed to keep organized and prepared, and have relied on it to keep track of doctor appointments, club meetings, and everything else, including people's birthdays even! On 11/8/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Is Google Calendar accessible with JAWS if you use Firefox? > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/8/11, Justin Young wrote: >> Thanks for this Jewel! Sounds exactly what I am looking for! >> >> On 11/8/11, Jewel wrote: >>> If you are just looking to get more organized, you might consider >>> DaybyDay Professional, a planner/calendar from www.blindsoftware.com. >>> I've been using it for several years and it was created with JAWS in >>> mind, so has great shortcut keys and everything! >>> >>> ~Jewel >>> >>> On 11/8/11, Lea williams wrote: >>>> Hey I use my calendar with my gmail account. Then I have an Iphone >>>> that I can look at my calendar events. It works best to use the gmail >>>> calendar threw fire fox instead of internet Explorer. >>>> I also have it send me an email everyday with the tasks. This works >>>> well. You can have the calendar pushed to any celphone or ipod etc... >>>> >>>> On 11/8/11, Justin Young wrote: >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> Question for you. Do any of you use the online calenders? If so >>>>> could you recommend which works best with JAWS? I ask because I am >>>>> looking for an online calender which will help me become more >>>>> organized with a busy schedule. The google calender is not that great >>>>> from what I know so I thought I'd ask for help on this one. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for any and all suggestions/leads. >>>>> >>>>> Justin >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Lea Williams >>>> >>>> Phone; >>>> 704-732-4470 >>>> Skipe; >>>> Lea.williams738 >>>> Facebook >>>> http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From agrima at nbp.org Wed Nov 9 15:55:10 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 10:55:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NBP's Annual Holiday Sale and Gift Ideas! Message-ID: <004b01cc9ef7$f68035d0$e380a170$@org> Get a jump on the holidays, save time and money, and stock up on books with National Braille Press's annual holiday kids' book sale! Order three books from the list below, get the fourth one FREE! Order two books from this list, get the third one for half-price! (As always, we apply the discount/free book to the most expensive book in the bunch.) Sale expires December 31, 2011. Order soon - these books are in very limited supply and we sell out very quickly! See the list below, or read descriptions of the books - and see more gift ideas, including print/braille magnets and new jewelry - at: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/holidaysale.html Books included in the sale: Lilly's Purple Plastic Purse, $17.99 Dooby Dooby Moo, $9.99 Houndsley and Catina, $5.00 Tacky the Penguin, $10.99 Harry by the Sea, $6.99 Fox in Love, $5.00 Fancy Nancy: The Show Must Go On, $5.00 What a Bad Dream, $5.00 The Story of Ferdinand, $7.99 Who Lives in an Alligator Hole?, $5.99 Dad, Jackie and Me, $16.95 Fly High, Fly Low, $7.99 Mike Mulligan and his Steam Shovel, $9.99 Little Red Riding Hood, $12.99 Picture Book of Florence Nightingale, $6.95 These items are NOT part of the sale - but they make great gifts! 2012 Dr Seuss Print/Braille Calendar, $13.99 Twas the Night Before Christmas, $8.99 Favorite Christmas Carols, $8.00 Just a Snowy Day, $8.99 Noah's Animals (Tactile Set), $28.00 Chunky Puzzle: Shapes, $9.99 We encourage telephone orders. You can order online, but you'll need to call or email us for your free book. Call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order by mail - send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Email: orders at nbp.org ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . From jty727 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 18:40:49 2011 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 13:40:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Calenders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes I was playing with it last night and it is for sure exactly what I was looking for! Great system that has been created! On 11/9/11, Jewel wrote: > You're very welcome, Justin. I certainly found it gto be just what I > needed to keep organized and prepared, and have relied on it to keep > track of doctor appointments, club meetings, and everything else, > including people's birthdays even! > > On 11/8/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Is Google Calendar accessible with JAWS if you use Firefox? >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/8/11, Justin Young wrote: >>> Thanks for this Jewel! Sounds exactly what I am looking for! >>> >>> On 11/8/11, Jewel wrote: >>>> If you are just looking to get more organized, you might consider >>>> DaybyDay Professional, a planner/calendar from www.blindsoftware.com. >>>> I've been using it for several years and it was created with JAWS in >>>> mind, so has great shortcut keys and everything! >>>> >>>> ~Jewel >>>> >>>> On 11/8/11, Lea williams wrote: >>>>> Hey I use my calendar with my gmail account. Then I have an Iphone >>>>> that I can look at my calendar events. It works best to use the gmail >>>>> calendar threw fire fox instead of internet Explorer. >>>>> I also have it send me an email everyday with the tasks. This works >>>>> well. You can have the calendar pushed to any celphone or ipod etc... >>>>> >>>>> On 11/8/11, Justin Young wrote: >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> Question for you. Do any of you use the online calenders? If so >>>>>> could you recommend which works best with JAWS? I ask because I am >>>>>> looking for an online calender which will help me become more >>>>>> organized with a busy schedule. The google calender is not that great >>>>>> from what I know so I thought I'd ask for help on this one. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for any and all suggestions/leads. >>>>>> >>>>>> Justin >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Lea Williams >>>>> >>>>> Phone; >>>>> 704-732-4470 >>>>> Skipe; >>>>> Lea.williams738 >>>>> Facebook >>>>> http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From drummer_grl_91 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 9 21:41:53 2011 From: drummer_grl_91 at yahoo.com (Angela Dehart) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 16:41:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks Message-ID: Hello all, I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here goes. I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if it can even be done? Thanks in advance, Angela Dehart From hope.paulos at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 21:51:18 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 16:51:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks References: Message-ID: <7EA357A8FF214885AF696E4419C3CC4B@Espy> If you have a program like open book or kerzweil you can convert them to audio and then read them that way I believe. Hope Paulos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela Dehart" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks > Hello all, > I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here goes. > I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with > approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer > with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on > my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go > about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if > it can even be done? > > Thanks in advance, > Angela Dehart > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 22:18:00 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 17:18:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: <7EA357A8FF214885AF696E4419C3CC4B@Espy> References: <7EA357A8FF214885AF696E4419C3CC4B@Espy> Message-ID: Here is what I do. It may work for you: 1. I have asked the DSS (Disability Support Services) office to put my books on a flash drive that I provide, instead of a CD. They like this because they don't have to use a CD that they pay for, so it saves them that little bit of money if everyone goes to this (which they are planning to suggest to other students). 2. I get my books in Word documents. 3. I create a folder in my $dbt_text folder with the title of the book as its name. 4. I open the files and do a Save As (F12) and save the file on my SD card (for my VictorReader Stream) as a .txt file. 5. I do this for each file (Each file is one chapter) I put all of the files in the folder that I created with the name of the book. 6. When I turn on my Victor, I go to the Text bookshelf, then navigate by level 1 to find the folder that is the book I want, then navigate to the chapter file that I want to read. 7. I press play and it reads the file. This also allows me, of course, to navigate the file by screen, phrase, paragraph, line, sentence, word, and character, and to also do a search (say I'm looking for a vocabulary word). I know it's a lot of work but think of it this way. You only have to do it once per semester. Oh, just a note. Before I go through all of these steps, I check to see if the book is available from Learning Ally or Bookshare. If from Learning Ally, I only put the files on my Victor that I need to know spellings and such from. If from Bookshare, I skip this process altogether and just download the daisy book from them. Hope that helps, Jewel On 11/9/11, Hope Paulos wrote: > If you have a program like open book or kerzweil you can convert them to > audio and then read them that way I believe. > Hope Paulos > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Angela Dehart" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > >> Hello all, >> I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here goes. >> >> I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with >> approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer >> with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on >> my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go >> about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if >> it can even be done? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Angela Dehart >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 22:35:20 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 17:35:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: <7EA357A8FF214885AF696E4419C3CC4B@Espy> References: <7EA357A8FF214885AF696E4419C3CC4B@Espy> Message-ID: What format is the audio in and can you read it on a Vr stream or what devices? -----Original Message----- From: Hope Paulos Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks If you have a program like open book or kerzweil you can convert them to audio and then read them that way I believe. Hope Paulos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela Dehart" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks > Hello all, > I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here goes. > I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with > approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer > with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on > my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go > about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if > it can even be done? > > Thanks in advance, > Angela Dehart > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 22:44:57 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 17:44:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AEF4D538EDF4B98BFCE695E3129A740@OwnerPC> Good question. I think the VR stream is doable, but not sure what format you need to save to in order to read on vr stream. Another question. If my DSS office gives me electronic material, that I read on the PC and with jaws, how can I read them on my braille Note? Do I just save the files to the PC, then save from the PC to the thumb drive or sd card? Thanks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Angela Dehart Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks Hello all, I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here goes. I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if it can even be done? Thanks in advance, Angela Dehart _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 23:09:17 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 18:09:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] openbook questions and braille notes Message-ID: <8CEFAD7A3F1E448FBADFB1E9D93F5AC4@OwnerPC> Hi all, Openbook has many advanced features I haven’t learned. Some questions. 1. Once I scan it, I can save to the pc and read there obviously. What else? Can I read a openbook file on the BrailleNote? If so, I could save to a storage device and read from there. I don’t think the Braille Note mpower accepts openbook files, though. 2. Can I save the file to another format such as .rtf or .txt? I would find it easier to edit this way. If yes, how? 3. How does the save as audio file work? What format is it in? I assume you can save that audio file on the PC and then transfer to any storage device and listen to it on another device with that storage device. Like you could use a VR stream, I think and SD card as the storage device. What devices can you listen to these digital files on? Mp3 players? BrailleNotes? Thanks. From hope.paulos at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 23:17:35 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 18:17:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: <1AEF4D538EDF4B98BFCE695E3129A740@OwnerPC> References: <1AEF4D538EDF4B98BFCE695E3129A740@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4655234D-3A5A-4118-A2F4-A6F9683C819B@gmail.com> What format do you get the materials in from DSS? Sent from my iPod On Nov 9, 2011, at 5:44 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Good question. > I think the VR stream is doable, but not sure what format you need to save to in order to read on vr stream. > > Another question. > If my DSS office gives me electronic material, that I read on the PC and with jaws, how can I read them on my braille Note? > Do I just save the files to the PC, then save from the PC to the thumb drive or sd card? > > Thanks. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Angela Dehart > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > Hello all, > I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here goes. I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if it can even be done? > > Thanks in advance, > Angela Dehart > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 23:22:34 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 18:22:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: References: <7EA357A8FF214885AF696E4419C3CC4B@Espy> Message-ID: <6764BE9FB9AD4F48876D099506C6592E@OwnerPC> Oh, you actually understand the stream voice. Its hard for me. What version is the stream on? Maybe its improved by now. -----Original Message----- From: Jewel Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 5:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks Here is what I do. It may work for you: 1. I have asked the DSS (Disability Support Services) office to put my books on a flash drive that I provide, instead of a CD. They like this because they don't have to use a CD that they pay for, so it saves them that little bit of money if everyone goes to this (which they are planning to suggest to other students). 2. I get my books in Word documents. 3. I create a folder in my $dbt_text folder with the title of the book as its name. 4. I open the files and do a Save As (F12) and save the file on my SD card (for my VictorReader Stream) as a .txt file. 5. I do this for each file (Each file is one chapter) I put all of the files in the folder that I created with the name of the book. 6. When I turn on my Victor, I go to the Text bookshelf, then navigate by level 1 to find the folder that is the book I want, then navigate to the chapter file that I want to read. 7. I press play and it reads the file. This also allows me, of course, to navigate the file by screen, phrase, paragraph, line, sentence, word, and character, and to also do a search (say I'm looking for a vocabulary word). I know it's a lot of work but think of it this way. You only have to do it once per semester. Oh, just a note. Before I go through all of these steps, I check to see if the book is available from Learning Ally or Bookshare. If from Learning Ally, I only put the files on my Victor that I need to know spellings and such from. If from Bookshare, I skip this process altogether and just download the daisy book from them. Hope that helps, Jewel On 11/9/11, Hope Paulos wrote: > If you have a program like open book or kerzweil you can convert them to > audio and then read them that way I believe. > Hope Paulos > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Angela Dehart" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > >> Hello all, >> I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here >> goes. >> >> I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with >> approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer >> with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on >> my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go >> about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if >> it can even be done? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Angela Dehart >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 23:30:21 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 18:30:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: <4655234D-3A5A-4118-A2F4-A6F9683C819B@gmail.com> References: <1AEF4D538EDF4B98BFCE695E3129A740@OwnerPC> <4655234D-3A5A-4118-A2F4-A6F9683C819B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3E52CF3A7B1542B6877CD4698A534413@OwnerPC> The materials are in PDF sometimes which I know can only be read on a PC. Other times, they are one file per chapter. They are .rtf or Word files. -----Original Message----- From: Hope Paulos Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks What format do you get the materials in from DSS? Sent from my iPod On Nov 9, 2011, at 5:44 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Good question. > I think the VR stream is doable, but not sure what format you need to save > to in order to read on vr stream. > > Another question. > If my DSS office gives me electronic material, that I read on the PC and > with jaws, how can I read them on my braille Note? > Do I just save the files to the PC, then save from the PC to the thumb > drive or sd card? > > Thanks. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Angela Dehart > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > Hello all, > I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here goes. > I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with > approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer > with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on > my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go > about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if > it can even be done? > > Thanks in advance, > Angela Dehart > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 00:40:12 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 19:40:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. In-Reply-To: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d@mx.google.com> References: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1D4DB7CADD5A41A99DB14410E987539C@OwnerPC> Vejas, Well, try and be polite, but if they persist, then be more firm. No I don't think you were rude. If you tried to be nice and they wouldn't leave you alone, then you can try other tacticts. I don't think your aide would like someone grabbing him/her. So why should you put up with it? Don't let people shove you and maneuver you around just since your blind, especially if you told them you were fine. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: vejas Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 9:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting for myself. What are your thoughts on this? Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter References: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d@mx.google.com> <1D4DB7CADD5A41A99DB14410E987539C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Vejas: You did the right thing. Blessigns, Joshua On 11/9/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Vejas, > Well, try and be polite, but if they persist, then be more firm. > No I don't think you were rude. If you tried to be nice and they wouldn't > leave you alone, then you can try other tacticts. > I don't think your aide would like someone grabbing him/her. So why should > you put up with it? > Don't let people shove you and maneuver you around just since your blind, > especially if you told them you > were fine. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: vejas > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 9:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. > > So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a > freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing > my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he > didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My > aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting > for myself. What are your thoughts on this? > Vejas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Student Division Date sent: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 20:08:43 -0600 > Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. > > > Arielle, > > Don't feel bad about losing your calm with people who grab you > especially those who silently grab. Any other situation, this > would be called harassment, but because we are blind, it suddenly > turns into charity. I'll hit strangers who grab me. I don't > know what their intentions are, and it's just a gut reaction. I > don't purposely go around seeking people to beat up on, but if a > complete stranger grabs me, my natural instinct is to protect > myself. Physical contact is one thing I don't think we need be > diplomatic and patient with. No one has the right to touch us > even if out of kindness. Does not common sense dictate that if > I'm out on my own I'm probably okay and don't require assistance? > Grabbing, or touching in any way, is crossing a line, and we > shouldn't feel bad about reacting. As I said, especially for > women, in any other context, grabbing a person would constitute > to harassment. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > bpollpeter at hotmail.com > > LiveWellNebraska.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From todd.orlowski at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 10 04:07:09 2011 From: todd.orlowski at yahoo.co.uk (Todd Orlowski) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 22:07:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: <1AEF4D538EDF4B98BFCE695E3129A740@OwnerPC> References: <1AEF4D538EDF4B98BFCE695E3129A740@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Yes you can save them either in a word document or txt document. And load them on to an sd card On Nov 9, 2011, at 4:44 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Good question. > I think the VR stream is doable, but not sure what format you need to save to in order to read on vr stream. > > Another question. > If my DSS office gives me electronic material, that I read on the PC and with jaws, how can I read them on my braille Note? > Do I just save the files to the PC, then save from the PC to the thumb drive or sd card? > > Thanks. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Angela Dehart > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > Hello all, > I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here goes. I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if it can even be done? > > Thanks in advance, > Angela Dehart > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/todd.orlowski%40yahoo.co.uk From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 04:11:44 2011 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 23:11:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: <3E52CF3A7B1542B6877CD4698A534413@OwnerPC> References: <1AEF4D538EDF4B98BFCE695E3129A740@OwnerPC> <4655234D-3A5A-4118-A2F4-A6F9683C819B@gmail.com> <3E52CF3A7B1542B6877CD4698A534413@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, If the files are in Word or rtf format, you can transfer them onto your Braille note for reading by saving them on a flash drive or sd card. If the files are in pdf format, they can't be read on the Braille Note, but if you have open Book or some other OCR software you may be able to convert the pdf file into a Word document (the Save As Text feature in Adobe Reader also works sometimes). Hope that helps! Katie On 11/9/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > The materials are in PDF sometimes which I know can only be read on a PC. > Other times, they are one file per chapter. They are .rtf or Word files. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hope Paulos > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > What format do you get the materials in from DSS? > > Sent from my iPod > > On Nov 9, 2011, at 5:44 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > >> Good question. >> I think the VR stream is doable, but not sure what format you need to save >> >> to in order to read on vr stream. >> >> Another question. >> If my DSS office gives me electronic material, that I read on the PC and >> with jaws, how can I read them on my braille Note? >> Do I just save the files to the PC, then save from the PC to the thumb >> drive or sd card? >> >> Thanks. >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Angela Dehart >> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks >> >> Hello all, >> I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here goes. >> >> I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with >> approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer >> with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on >> my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go >> about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if >> it can even be done? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Angela Dehart >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From brlsurfer at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 04:11:26 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:11:26 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks Message-ID: <4ebb4f00.a8afec0a.673a.63b6@mx.google.com> You can download textbooks off Bookshare site, and even e-mail bookshare to request a textbook you need. DAISY and BRF are the main types of documents it supports, so in your situation, for the Victor Stream, DAISY would probably be the better option. Although sometimes, but rarely, you can download books in HTML and text. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Orlowski The new version of Braille-Note Apex, Keysoft 9.2, converts PDF files to text. Maybe you can consider getting that. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Katie Wang wrote: The materials are in PDF sometimes which I know can only be read on a PC. Other times, they are one file per chapter. They are .rtf or Word files. -----Original Message----- From: Hope Paulos Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks What format do you get the materials in from DSS? Sent from my iPod On Nov 9, 2011, at 5:44 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" References: <8CEFAD7A3F1E448FBADFB1E9D93F5AC4@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, This is sort of related to the other thread I just responded to, but saving files in alternative formats in Open Book is pretty straightforward. Go to File > Save As, Tab once to the File Type combo box, select the type of file you want using the arrow keys, then click on OK when you are ready (after entering other information such as the file name, etc.). If you save the file in Word, plain text, or rtf format, then you can read it using your Braille Note. I have never used the Save As Audio File feature, but I imagine it works pretty similarly-- It will probably convert your file into a format that can be played on the Stream (and probably the Braille Note too, since it also has a DAISY player). Katie On 11/9/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > Openbook has many advanced features I haven’t learned. > Some questions. > > 1. Once I scan it, I can save to the pc and read there obviously. What else? > Can I read a openbook file on the BrailleNote? > If so, I could save to a storage device and read from there. I don’t think > the Braille Note mpower accepts openbook files, though. > 2. Can I save the file to another format such as .rtf or .txt? I would find > it easier to edit this way. If yes, how? > 3. How does the save as audio file work? What format is it in? I assume you > can > save that audio file on the PC and then transfer to any storage device and > listen to it on another device with that storage device. Like you could use > a VR stream, I think and SD card as the storage device. > What devices can you listen to these digital files on? Mp3 players? > BrailleNotes? > > Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 04:21:57 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 23:21:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: References: <1AEF4D538EDF4B98BFCE695E3129A740@OwnerPC><4655234D-3A5A-4118-A2F4-A6F9683C819B@gmail.com><3E52CF3A7B1542B6877CD4698A534413@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <3900D2CD8F124E70B8819ADE8A34B6D7@OwnerPC> Katie, Some are Word files or .rtf files. I thought that would work. I'll just transfer the files onto a SD card and put the sd card into the brailleNote. Thanks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Katie Wang Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 11:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks Hi Ashley, If the files are in Word or rtf format, you can transfer them onto your Braille note for reading by saving them on a flash drive or sd card. If the files are in pdf format, they can't be read on the Braille Note, but if you have open Book or some other OCR software you may be able to convert the pdf file into a Word document (the Save As Text feature in Adobe Reader also works sometimes). Hope that helps! Katie On 11/9/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > The materials are in PDF sometimes which I know can only be read on a PC. > Other times, they are one file per chapter. They are .rtf or Word files. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hope Paulos > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > What format do you get the materials in from DSS? > > Sent from my iPod > > On Nov 9, 2011, at 5:44 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > >> Good question. >> I think the VR stream is doable, but not sure what format you need to >> save >> >> to in order to read on vr stream. >> >> Another question. >> If my DSS office gives me electronic material, that I read on the PC and >> with jaws, how can I read them on my braille Note? >> Do I just save the files to the PC, then save from the PC to the thumb >> drive or sd card? >> >> Thanks. >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Angela Dehart >> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks >> >> Hello all, >> I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here >> goes. >> >> I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with >> approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer >> with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on >> my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go >> about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if >> it can even be done? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Angela Dehart >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 04:22:53 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 23:22:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: <4ebb4f00.a8afec0a.673a.63b6@mx.google.com> References: <4ebb4f00.a8afec0a.673a.63b6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Vejas, Bookshare doesn't have many college textbooks; most of us get it electronically from our disabled student service offices. -----Original Message----- From: vejas Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 11:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks You can download textbooks off Bookshare site, and even e-mail bookshare to request a textbook you need. DAISY and BRF are the main types of documents it supports, so in your situation, for the Victor Stream, DAISY would probably be the better option. Although sometimes, but rarely, you can download books in HTML and text. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Orlowski References: <4ebb4f97.e216ec0a.3250.10c8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: converts pdf to text; pretty cool. but cannot upgrade; too expensive -----Original Message----- From: vejas Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 11:13 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks The new version of Braille-Note Apex, Keysoft 9.2, converts PDF files to text. Maybe you can consider getting that. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Katie Wang wrote: The materials are in PDF sometimes which I know can only be read on a PC. Other times, they are one file per chapter. They are .rtf or Word files. -----Original Message----- From: Hope Paulos Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks What format do you get the materials in from DSS? Sent from my iPod On Nov 9, 2011, at 5:44 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" References: <1AEF4D538EDF4B98BFCE695E3129A740@OwnerPC> Message-ID: thanks for the assurance; thought it would work. Now I need a card reader to read the sd cards and that way I can save files to the sd card from the pc. I've been using usb drives so far. But would rather use a sd card because its smaller and slides in the Braillenote better. -----Original Message----- From: Todd Orlowski Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 11:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks Yes you can save them either in a word document or txt document. And load them on to an sd card On Nov 9, 2011, at 4:44 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Good question. > I think the VR stream is doable, but not sure what format you need to save > to in order to read on vr stream. > > Another question. > If my DSS office gives me electronic material, that I read on the PC and > with jaws, how can I read them on my braille Note? > Do I just save the files to the PC, then save from the PC to the thumb > drive or sd card? > > Thanks. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Angela Dehart > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > Hello all, > I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway here goes. > I receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with > approval from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer > with windows eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on > my iPad and victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go > about transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or if > it can even be done? > > Thanks in advance, > Angela Dehart > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/todd.orlowski%40yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From brlsurfer at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 05:12:09 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 21:12:09 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Message-ID: <4ebb5d3b.cabb320a.36e4.ffffc49b@mx.google.com> Hi. My computer teacher from CSB told me about an amazing site that can convert your documents in a matter of minutes! This site converts PDF files into DOC and TXT files, as well as other types. It's called Robo-Braille. Here's what you would want to do to turn a PDF into a DOC: 1. Send the e-mail !convert at robobraille.org. For your andbject, type in doc, then attach the PDF file on to your e-mail. Don't write anything in the message; just send it. Soon after (5-minus minutes, on average, I would say), Robo-Braille will send you the DOC file as an attachment. It's awesome and requires no upgrades. I hope you like it and find it handy. Vejas From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 16:18:11 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:18:11 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter In-Reply-To: <4ebb5d3b.cabb320a.36e4.ffffc49b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4ebbcf24.271e340a.2d3f.ffff9637@mx.google.com> That's neat! Thanks for shareing! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of vejas Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Hi. My computer teacher from CSB told me about an amazing site that can convert your documents in a matter of minutes! This site converts PDF files into DOC and TXT files, as well as other types. It's called Robo-Braille. Here's what you would want to do to turn a PDF into a DOC: 1. Send the e-mail !convert at robobraille.org. For your andbject, type in doc, then attach the PDF file on to your e-mail. Don't write anything in the message; just send it. Soon after (5-minus minutes, on average, I would say), Robo-Braille will send you the DOC file as an attachment. It's awesome and requires no upgrades. I hope you like it and find it handy. Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 10 16:08:09 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:08:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We are not obligated to take assistance just because others think we require it. Even when being diplomatic and kind in return, we're not obligated to do this. If we feel awkward or uncomfortable about being offered, or in many cases forced, sighted assistance, we don't need to take it or feel bad about declining it. Despite what we are often told, and how society views us, we are capable and can think for ourselves. If we want assistance of any kind, we know when and how to use it, and it is up to us to ask, and decline, for assistance. We don't have to hurt feelings or be aggressive about it, but no one is obligated to accept assistance if it's not wanted. I had a dentist who, though nice enough, always insisted he or a staff member guided me around his office. His office was extremely tiny so even if I wanted help, it didn't make much sense in such a small environment. I always had to assert myself in stating thanks, but no thanks. The final straw was when he insisted on walking me out to the waiting area and when I removed my hand from his arm, he grabbed it and tucked it underneath his arm. I again removed my hand, and he again grabbed it. I gently explained that when I decline assistance, it is my decision and no one should force anything on me. Especially as a woman, I'm not comfortable with men refusing to accept the fact that I don't need assistance. It's not a feminist thing so much as a I'm not comfortable with men I barely know asserting anything over me when I haven't asked for it or declined it. I have since switched dentists. So no one should feel obligated to accept assistance unless it's what you want. We are the ones who make decisions for ourselves; we control our own lives; no one has the right to expect, and force, anything on us even if done out of kindness. Don't be mean or rude, but don't feel as though you have to "submit" to a person's insistance that you take assistance. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 16 Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:17:45 -0800 From: vejas To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. Message-ID: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting for myself. What are your thoughts on this? Vejas From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Nov 10 16:19:34 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:19:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You're right, Bridgett. I tell people all the time, that I prefer that they don't do sighted guide, when I can get where I need to go on my own. I tell them, if they insist, that if they're going to do it, they need to do it right. They don't like that. Blessings, Joshua On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > We are not obligated to take assistance just because others think we > require it. Even when being diplomatic and kind in return, we're not > obligated to do this. If we feel awkward or uncomfortable about being > offered, or in many cases forced, sighted assistance, we don't need to > take it or feel bad about declining it. Despite what we are often told, > and how society views us, we are capable and can think for ourselves. If > we want assistance of any kind, we know when and how to use it, and it > is up to us to ask, and decline, for assistance. We don't have to hurt > feelings or be aggressive about it, but no one is obligated to accept > assistance if it's not wanted. > > I had a dentist who, though nice enough, always insisted he or a staff > member guided me around his office. His office was extremely tiny so > even if I wanted help, it didn't make much sense in such a small > environment. I always had to assert myself in stating thanks, but no > thanks. The final straw was when he insisted on walking me out to the > waiting area and when I removed my hand from his arm, he grabbed it and > tucked it underneath his arm. I again removed my hand, and he again > grabbed it. I gently explained that when I decline assistance, it is my > decision and no one should force anything on me. Especially as a woman, > I'm not comfortable with men refusing to accept the fact that I don't > need assistance. It's not a feminist thing so much as a I'm not > comfortable with men I barely know asserting anything over me when I > haven't asked for it or declined it. I have since switched dentists. > > So no one should feel obligated to accept assistance unless it's what > you want. We are the ones who make decisions for ourselves; we control > our own lives; no one has the right to expect, and force, anything on us > even if done out of kindness. Don't be mean or rude, but don't feel as > though you have to "submit" to a person's insistance that you take > assistance. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 16 > Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:17:45 -0800 > From: vejas > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. > Message-ID: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d at mx.google.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed > > So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a > freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing > my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he > didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My > aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting > for myself. What are your thoughts on this? > Vejas > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 10 16:22:57 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:22:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate relationships. The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our independence and capabilities. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 21 Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 From: Patrick Molloy To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot to be desired (if desired at all.) Patrick From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 16:49:22 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:49:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point Bridgit. How do people think we got to the street corner in the first place? It also amazes me how people try to "help" me with things like putting on my backpack or coat, and I wonder how they think I put it on the last time I did? Do they think someone dresses me? I was at the gym a couple weeks ago and I put my coat in a cubby during my workout. I was halfway through putting my coat back on when I heard some guy come up behind me breathing hard (probably from exercising) and without any verbal warning, I felt him tug on the side of my coat that wasn't yet on my body. Creepy! I asked him what he was doing and he said, "can I help you put this on?" I told him I didn't like him grabbing my coat without any warning and suggested he ask before offering that kind of assistance. He apologized and, again, seemed surprised that he had done anything wrong or inappropriate. Arielle On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to > blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like > cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person > sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not > dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is > probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little > difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with > no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their > help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. > > In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I > don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as > possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood > pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days > like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance > than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on > these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as > it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates > became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, > and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When > classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if > I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. > They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate > relationships. > > The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our > actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible > in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as > people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take > note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our > independence and capabilities. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 21 > Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 > From: Patrick Molloy > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people > often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, > they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot > to be desired (if desired at all.) > Patrick > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 16:58:05 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:58:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arielle, Good point. How did that guy think you got the coat on in the first place? I agree with what has been said already. It's important to remain positive and not get too frustrated when sighted people try and help us do things. The more we can doe things independently, the less sighted people will ask us if we need help. Patrick On 11/10/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Good point Bridgit. How do people think we got to the street corner in > the first place? > It also amazes me how people try to "help" me with things like putting > on my backpack or coat, and I wonder how they think I put it on the > last time I did? Do they think someone dresses me? > I was at the gym a couple weeks ago and I put my coat in a cubby > during my workout. I was halfway through putting my coat back on when > I heard some guy come up behind me breathing hard (probably from > exercising) and without any verbal warning, I felt him tug on the side > of my coat that wasn't yet on my body. Creepy! I asked him what he was > doing and he said, "can I help you put this on?" I told him I didn't > like him grabbing my coat without any warning and suggested he ask > before offering that kind of assistance. He apologized and, again, > seemed surprised that he had done anything wrong or inappropriate. > Arielle > > On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >> blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >> cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person >> sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not >> dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is >> probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little >> difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with >> no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their >> help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. >> >> In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I >> don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as >> possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood >> pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days >> like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance >> than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on >> these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as >> it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates >> became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, >> and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When >> classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if >> I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >> They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >> relationships. >> >> The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >> actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible >> in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as >> people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take >> note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our >> independence and capabilities. >> >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >> Message: 21 >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >> From: Patrick Molloy >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >> often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >> they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >> to be desired (if desired at all.) >> Patrick >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 17:00:29 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:00:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] website, jobs for the blind Message-ID: There is a new website called Jobs For The Blind Blog at http://www.jobsfortheblindblog.com/ This web site is dedicated to providing quality information on programs and seminars to stimulate employment for people who are visually impaired and/or blind. This email was sent to me and i thought you all would like to check it out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 18:01:32 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:01:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a woman it's not just an issue of independence vs. dependence, but an issue of personal space and bodily integrity. In our culture, a man touching or grabbing a woman has certain connotations that are undesirable in most situations especially if the man and woman don't have a pre-existing relationship. In other words, having a male stranger, dentist, teacher or acquaintance put his arm around me or touch me in ways my boyfriend does is not appropriate. Granted, the personal space issue is still important regardless of gender, but across gender lines these kinds of violations are especially egregious. Arielle On 11/10/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > You're right, Bridgett. > I tell people all the time, that I prefer that they don't do sighted > guide, when I can get where I need to go on my own. > I tell them, if they insist, that if they're going to do it, they need > to do it right. > They don't like that. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> We are not obligated to take assistance just because others think we >> require it. Even when being diplomatic and kind in return, we're not >> obligated to do this. If we feel awkward or uncomfortable about being >> offered, or in many cases forced, sighted assistance, we don't need to >> take it or feel bad about declining it. Despite what we are often told, >> and how society views us, we are capable and can think for ourselves. If >> we want assistance of any kind, we know when and how to use it, and it >> is up to us to ask, and decline, for assistance. We don't have to hurt >> feelings or be aggressive about it, but no one is obligated to accept >> assistance if it's not wanted. >> >> I had a dentist who, though nice enough, always insisted he or a staff >> member guided me around his office. His office was extremely tiny so >> even if I wanted help, it didn't make much sense in such a small >> environment. I always had to assert myself in stating thanks, but no >> thanks. The final straw was when he insisted on walking me out to the >> waiting area and when I removed my hand from his arm, he grabbed it and >> tucked it underneath his arm. I again removed my hand, and he again >> grabbed it. I gently explained that when I decline assistance, it is my >> decision and no one should force anything on me. Especially as a woman, >> I'm not comfortable with men refusing to accept the fact that I don't >> need assistance. It's not a feminist thing so much as a I'm not >> comfortable with men I barely know asserting anything over me when I >> haven't asked for it or declined it. I have since switched dentists. >> >> So no one should feel obligated to accept assistance unless it's what >> you want. We are the ones who make decisions for ourselves; we control >> our own lives; no one has the right to expect, and force, anything on us >> even if done out of kindness. Don't be mean or rude, but don't feel as >> though you have to "submit" to a person's insistance that you take >> assistance. >> >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >> Message: 16 >> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:17:45 -0800 >> From: vejas >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >> Message-ID: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d at mx.google.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a >> freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing >> my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he >> didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My >> aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting >> for myself. What are your thoughts on this? >> Vejas >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu Nov 10 19:44:05 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:44:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help Message-ID: b77ac139-7925-43a6-9b75-e6551c43e223@samobile.net Bridgit, I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, walking alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think those blindness attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with you that our actions mean a lot; we can't claim that we want to be independent travelers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. I'm sorry to say that this is one of the few situations in which we can't have our cake and eat it, too. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to > blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like > cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person > sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not > dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is > probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little > difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with > no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their > help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. > In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I > don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as > possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood > pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days > like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance > than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on > these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as > it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates > became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, > and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When > classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if > I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. > They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate > relationships. > The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our > actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible > in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as > people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take > note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our > independence and capabilities. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 21 > Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 > From: Patrick Molloy > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people > often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, > they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot > to be desired (if desired at all.) > Patrick > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu Nov 10 19:56:40 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:56:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help Message-ID: 8e4af693-4710-4885-8d43-eba1c447c2b7@samobile.net It's important to > remain positive and not get too frustrated when sighted people try and > help us do things. I think it's perfectly okay to get frustrated if that's how you feel. Feel free to feel negative. And since feelings are always valid, there's no such thing as getting too frustrated. This is my opinion: we need to stop telling ourselves how to feel and how not to feel. Just saying. In the longrun, we'll do ourselves and the sighted a considerable service when we communicate through our honest feelings as Arielle did rather than play nice because that's what we've been taught to do. If it helps those of you who do get frustrated, I trust you to say whatever you need to say and do so in a healthful manner for both you and the sighted person involved. And if you really don't get frustrated, great. I trust you to say whatever you need to say and do so in a healthful manner for both you and the sighted person involved. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Arielle, > Good point. How did that guy think you got the coat on in the first > place? I agree with what has been said already. It's important to > remain positive and not get too frustrated when sighted people try and > help us do things. The more we can doe things independently, the less > sighted people will ask us if we need help. > Patrick > On 11/10/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Good point Bridgit. How do people think we got to the street corner in >> the first place? >> It also amazes me how people try to "help" me with things like putting >> on my backpack or coat, and I wonder how they think I put it on the >> last time I did? Do they think someone dresses me? >> I was at the gym a couple weeks ago and I put my coat in a cubby >> during my workout. I was halfway through putting my coat back on when >> I heard some guy come up behind me breathing hard (probably from >> exercising) and without any verbal warning, I felt him tug on the side >> of my coat that wasn't yet on my body. Creepy! I asked him what he was >> doing and he said, "can I help you put this on?" I told him I didn't >> like him grabbing my coat without any warning and suggested he ask >> before offering that kind of assistance. He apologized and, again, >> seemed surprised that he had done anything wrong or inappropriate. >> Arielle >> On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >>> I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >>> blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >>> cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person >>> sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not >>> dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is >>> probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little >>> difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with >>> no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their >>> help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. >>> In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I >>> don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as >>> possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood >>> pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days >>> like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance >>> than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on >>> these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as >>> it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates >>> became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, >>> and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When >>> classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if >>> I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >>> They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >>> relationships. >>> The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >>> actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible >>> in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as >>> people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take >>> note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our >>> independence and capabilities. >>> Sincerely, >>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>> Read my blog at: >>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>> Message: 21 >>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >>> From: Patrick Molloy >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >>> often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >>> they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >>> to be desired (if desired at all.) >>> Patrick >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Nov 10 20:07:30 2011 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:07:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Colorado Seeks a Chapter/Community DevelopmentStaff Person Message-ID: <8B3AA623469946A2A979AFF77A09C69A@labarre> Greetings: The National Federation of the Blind of Colorado intends to engage in substantial growth over the next few years. We wish to hire an individual to serve in the role of Chapter and Community Development Coordinator. The main objective of this position is to spread the message and philosophy of the Federation to all parts of our state and help us support and grow existing chapters as well as help us establish new ones. The staff person will also help in general outreach matters to the broader public and thereby help raise the profile of the Federation. The first requirement of this position is to have an individual who is well versed in the philosophy and history of the Federation and someone who has demonstrated leadership and capacity to build the movement. The person must possess excellent organizational skills and have the ability to self-motivate and stay on task. The person must be available to travel throughout the state of Colorado and attend other national events as assigned. A college degree or higher level of education is preferred but necessarily mandatory. The person must be able to communicate well through effective command of the written and spoken word including a high level of computer literacy. Salary is dependent upon experience and qualifications and other benefits will be made available. If you are interested in this position, please contact the President, Scott LaBarre, via email at slabarre at labarrelaw.com and include your resume and a cover letter explaining why you believe you are a candidate for this position. The deadline for application is Thursday, November 17, 2011. We plan to interview potential candidates in early December and make a decision prior to the end of the year. Our goal is to have the new staff person begin their duties in January of 2012. Thanks, Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. President, NFB Colorado LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 20:34:30 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:34:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: <4ebc2ceb.c1952a0a.1f09.ffff9f05SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4ebc2ceb.c1952a0a.1f09.ffff9f05SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Jedi, I personally find that getting frustrated really doesn't accomplish a whole lot. I'd much rather be firm and calm as opposed to blowing up at somebody when they make a simple offer. I just think it's better to try and reason with people than to climb onto one's soapbox. But, if you want to get frustrated, by all means. However, it's important to think of the image that this gives sighted people. There's a fine line between being firm and being rude, and it's important to recognize that. And no, I'm not "playing nice," as you put it. I'm not, however, going to take off someone's head just because they offered to help me cross a street. Quite frankly, I have more important things to worry about than that. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The fact that sighted people are asking us shows that they're thinking. Sighted people want to do the right thing, they just don't always know how to do it or what it is. Patrick On 11/10/11, Jedi wrote: > It's important to >> remain positive and not get too frustrated when sighted people try and >> help us do things. > > I think it's perfectly okay to get frustrated if that's how you feel. > Feel free to feel negative. And since feelings are always valid, > there's no such thing as getting too frustrated. This is my opinion: we > need to stop telling ourselves how to feel and how not to feel. Just > saying. In the longrun, we'll do ourselves and the sighted a > considerable service when we communicate through our honest feelings as > Arielle did rather than play nice because that's what we've been taught to > do. > > If it helps those of you who do get frustrated, I trust you to say > whatever you need to say and do so in a healthful manner for both you > and the sighted person involved. > > And if you really don't get frustrated, great. I trust you to say > whatever you need to say and do so in a healthful manner for both you > and the sighted person involved. > > Respectfully Submitted > > > Original message: >> Arielle, >> Good point. How did that guy think you got the coat on in the first >> place? I agree with what has been said already. It's important to >> remain positive and not get too frustrated when sighted people try and >> help us do things. The more we can doe things independently, the less >> sighted people will ask us if we need help. >> Patrick > >> On 11/10/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Good point Bridgit. How do people think we got to the street corner in >>> the first place? >>> It also amazes me how people try to "help" me with things like putting >>> on my backpack or coat, and I wonder how they think I put it on the >>> last time I did? Do they think someone dresses me? >>> I was at the gym a couple weeks ago and I put my coat in a cubby >>> during my workout. I was halfway through putting my coat back on when >>> I heard some guy come up behind me breathing hard (probably from >>> exercising) and without any verbal warning, I felt him tug on the side >>> of my coat that wasn't yet on my body. Creepy! I asked him what he was >>> doing and he said, "can I help you put this on?" I told him I didn't >>> like him grabbing my coat without any warning and suggested he ask >>> before offering that kind of assistance. He apologized and, again, >>> seemed surprised that he had done anything wrong or inappropriate. >>> Arielle > >>> On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >>>> I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >>>> blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >>>> cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person >>>> sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not >>>> dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is >>>> probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little >>>> difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with >>>> no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their >>>> help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. > >>>> In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I >>>> don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as >>>> possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood >>>> pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days >>>> like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance >>>> than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on >>>> these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as >>>> it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates >>>> became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, >>>> and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When >>>> classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if >>>> I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >>>> They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >>>> relationships. > >>>> The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >>>> actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible >>>> in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as >>>> people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take >>>> note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our >>>> independence and capabilities. > >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>>> Read my blog at: >>>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >>>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >>>> Message: 21 >>>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >>>> From: Patrick Molloy >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >>>> Message-ID: > >>>> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>>> I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >>>> often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >>>> they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >>>> to be desired (if desired at all.) >>>> Patrick > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 10 20:35:37 2011 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Hai Nguyen Ly) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:35:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Job posting: NFB - Director of Outreach Programs, Baltimore, MD Message-ID: http://www.nfb.org/nfb/DirOutreachProgJI.asp Director of Outreach Programs National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute JOB RESPONSIBILITIES Plan and facilitate programs of marketing, outreach, and strategic relationship building for the National Federation of the Blind under the direction of the executive director for the NFB Jernigan Institute; Research and make recommendations regarding new outreach opportunities; Oversee logistics and execution of special events; Facilitate relationships that establish new opportunities for blind people across the country; Plan and implement ongoing programs of support; Manage project resources; Develop program communications and integrate messaging across organizational resources; Perform community outreach for the organization; Assist in the implementation of direct service to blind people across the country. QUALIFICATIONS Bachelor's degree or higher Experience in marketing, business, communications, public relations, or areas requiring similar skills Energy, enthusiasm, and an ability to relate to and work closely with many diverse individuals Ability to communicate effectively Ability to manage and motivate team members Ability to handle many tasks simultaneously A passion to change what it means to be blind Ability to be self-motivated and results-oriented The director of outreach programs will work from the national headquarters of the National Federation of the Blind in the South Federal Hill neighborhood of Baltimore, Maryland. The NFB is the nation’s oldest, largest, and most influential membership organization of blind persons. The membership of 50,000 belongs through over 700 local chapters of state affiliates in all fifty states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico. The NFB is a consumer and advocacy organization seeking to help blind persons achieve self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for collective self-expression by the blind. The successful applicant must be able to articulate persuasively the mission, vision and philosophy of the NFB. Applicants should send, preferably via e-mail, a résumé and cover letter indicating salary requirements to: Anthony Cobb, Director of Human Resources, National Federation of the Blind, 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place, Baltimore, MD 21230; telephone 410-659-9314, ext. 2281; fax 410-685-5653; e-mail Acobb at nfb.org . The National Federation of the Blind is an equal opportunity employer. Accordingly all terms and conditions of employment will be carried out without regard to race, creed, color, religion, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, marital status, age, or disability. From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 10 20:48:42 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:48:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arielle, I know, right? It's such a fine balance between diplomatic assertiveness and aggressive rants. Ultimately, I don't get why we're expected to feel like a child or incapable, or even violated, just because others don't understand. And it seems like no matter how we respond, people think we're just being stubborn and prideful. Not to lump all nonblind people together, but it does happen an awful lot. To me, it seems obvious that a blind woman at a gym with no companion, or no companion in the vicinity, probably is good and doesn't need help. And why people think they can just touch, grab, yank, whatever, without asking is beyond my comprehension level. Like I said before, in any other scenario, this would be called harassment. I don't think I'll ever fully adjust to these attitudes and kind of assistance. It's just not how I'm constructed, and the longer I'm blind, the less and less I understand it, not that I ever have understood it. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 27 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:49:22 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Good point Bridgit. How do people think we got to the street corner in the first place? It also amazes me how people try to "help" me with things like putting on my backpack or coat, and I wonder how they think I put it on the last time I did? Do they think someone dresses me? I was at the gym a couple weeks ago and I put my coat in a cubby during my workout. I was halfway through putting my coat back on when I heard some guy come up behind me breathing hard (probably from exercising) and without any verbal warning, I felt him tug on the side of my coat that wasn't yet on my body. Creepy! I asked him what he was doing and he said, "can I help you put this on?" I told him I didn't like him grabbing my coat without any warning and suggested he ask before offering that kind of assistance. He apologized and, again, seemed surprised that he had done anything wrong or inappropriate. Arielle From kramc11 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 20:50:59 2011 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:50:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help References: <4ebc2ceb.c1952a0a.1f09.ffff9f05SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <70A525E6E37C473E959B6E89A70E0975@cadiganpc> Sometimes, it's just easier to accept the help with a smile, even though it is unnecessary. It's typically faster than explaining and or arguing, especially when it seems as if the people who try to be the most helpful speak the least English. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Molloy" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help > Jedi, > I personally find that getting frustrated really doesn't accomplish a > whole lot. I'd much rather be firm and calm as opposed to blowing up > at somebody when they make a simple offer. I just think it's better to > try and reason with people than to climb onto one's soapbox. But, if > you want to get frustrated, by all means. However, it's important to > think of the image that this gives sighted people. There's a fine line > between being firm and being rude, and it's important to recognize > that. And no, I'm not "playing nice," as you put it. I'm not, however, > going to take off someone's head just because they offered to help me > cross a street. Quite frankly, I have more important things to worry > about than that. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The fact > that sighted people are asking us shows that they're thinking. Sighted > people want to do the right thing, they just don't always know how to > do it or what it is. > Patrick > > On 11/10/11, Jedi wrote: >> It's important to >>> remain positive and not get too frustrated when sighted people try and >>> help us do things. >> >> I think it's perfectly okay to get frustrated if that's how you feel. >> Feel free to feel negative. And since feelings are always valid, >> there's no such thing as getting too frustrated. This is my opinion: we >> need to stop telling ourselves how to feel and how not to feel. Just >> saying. In the longrun, we'll do ourselves and the sighted a >> considerable service when we communicate through our honest feelings as >> Arielle did rather than play nice because that's what we've been taught >> to >> do. >> >> If it helps those of you who do get frustrated, I trust you to say >> whatever you need to say and do so in a healthful manner for both you >> and the sighted person involved. >> >> And if you really don't get frustrated, great. I trust you to say >> whatever you need to say and do so in a healthful manner for both you >> and the sighted person involved. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> >> Original message: >>> Arielle, >>> Good point. How did that guy think you got the coat on in the first >>> place? I agree with what has been said already. It's important to >>> remain positive and not get too frustrated when sighted people try and >>> help us do things. The more we can doe things independently, the less >>> sighted people will ask us if we need help. >>> Patrick >> >>> On 11/10/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Good point Bridgit. How do people think we got to the street corner in >>>> the first place? >>>> It also amazes me how people try to "help" me with things like putting >>>> on my backpack or coat, and I wonder how they think I put it on the >>>> last time I did? Do they think someone dresses me? >>>> I was at the gym a couple weeks ago and I put my coat in a cubby >>>> during my workout. I was halfway through putting my coat back on when >>>> I heard some guy come up behind me breathing hard (probably from >>>> exercising) and without any verbal warning, I felt him tug on the side >>>> of my coat that wasn't yet on my body. Creepy! I asked him what he was >>>> doing and he said, "can I help you put this on?" I told him I didn't >>>> like him grabbing my coat without any warning and suggested he ask >>>> before offering that kind of assistance. He apologized and, again, >>>> seemed surprised that he had done anything wrong or inappropriate. >>>> Arielle >> >>>> On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >>>>> I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >>>>> blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >>>>> cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person >>>>> sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not >>>>> dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is >>>>> probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a >>>>> little >>>>> difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things >>>>> with >>>>> no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their >>>>> help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. >> >>>>> In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so >>>>> I >>>>> don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much >>>>> as >>>>> possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood >>>>> pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days >>>>> like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance >>>>> than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on >>>>> these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as >>>>> it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates >>>>> became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, >>>>> and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. >>>>> When >>>>> classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking >>>>> if >>>>> I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >>>>> They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >>>>> relationships. >> >>>>> The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >>>>> actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as >>>>> possible >>>>> in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as >>>>> people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take >>>>> note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our >>>>> independence and capabilities. >> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>>>> Read my blog at: >>>>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >>>>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>>>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >>>>> Message: 21 >>>>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >>>>> From: Patrick Molloy >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >>>>> Message-ID: >> >>>>> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>>>> I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >>>>> often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >>>>> they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >>>>> to be desired (if desired at all.) >>>>> Patrick >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com From kramc11 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 21:01:12 2011 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:01:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help References: Message-ID: <8078868E17E4422195B206D60364BE73@cadiganpc> One time I was walking along minding my own business, and a man ran up behind me and grabbed me in a bear hug. I don't know what he thought he was protecting me from; however, I was in an area that wasn't the best, so I reacted without thinking. The man got a steal towed boot slammed on his foot, and an elbow in the kidneys. Needless to say, that was rather painful, and I sort of felt bad when he picked himself up, and stated that he was only trying to help. However, I for the life of me can't figure what provokes people to grab onto us without warning. From carlymih at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 21:16:36 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:16:36 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: 8e4af693-4710-4885-8d43-eba1c447c2b7@samobile.net References: <8e4af693-4710-4885-8d43-eba1c447c2b7@samobile.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111110131258.01d1d748@earthlink.net> Hi, Jedi, Use humor. Don't take it so personally. Being positive does not, in my opinion, indicate an acceptance of notions concerning either blind people, or sighted people. Besides, if one blind person bites the wrong sighted head off, they will destroy the chances of that sighted person extending a sometimes helpful, hand in the future. for today, Car sighted people try and >>help us do things. > >I think it's perfectly okay to get frustrated if that's how you >feel. Feel free to feel negative. And since feelings are always >valid, there's no such thing as getting too frustrated. This is my >opinion: we need to stop telling ourselves how to feel and how not >to feel. Just saying. In the longrun, we'll do ourselves and the >sighted a considerable service when we communicate through our >honest feelings as Arielle did rather than play nice because that's >what we've been taught to do. > >If it helps those of you who do get frustrated, I trust you to say >whatever you need to say and do so in a healthful manner for both >you and the sighted person involved. > >And if you really don't get frustrated, great. I trust you to say >whatever you need to say and do so in a healthful manner for both >you and the sighted person involved. > >Respectfully Submitted > > >Original message: >>Arielle, >>Good point. How did that guy think you got the coat on in the first >>place? I agree with what has been said already. It's important to >>remain positive and not get too frustrated when sighted people try and >>help us do things. The more we can doe things independently, the less >>sighted people will ask us if we need help. >>Patrick > >>On 11/10/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>Good point Bridgit. How do people think we got to the street corner in >>>the first place? >>>It also amazes me how people try to "help" me with things like putting >>>on my backpack or coat, and I wonder how they think I put it on the >>>last time I did? Do they think someone dresses me? >>>I was at the gym a couple weeks ago and I put my coat in a cubby >>>during my workout. I was halfway through putting my coat back on when >>>I heard some guy come up behind me breathing hard (probably from >>>exercising) and without any verbal warning, I felt him tug on the side >>>of my coat that wasn't yet on my body. Creepy! I asked him what he was >>>doing and he said, "can I help you put this on?" I told him I didn't >>>like him grabbing my coat without any warning and suggested he ask >>>before offering that kind of assistance. He apologized and, again, >>>seemed surprised that he had done anything wrong or inappropriate. >>>Arielle > >>>On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >>>>I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >>>>blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >>>>cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person >>>>sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not >>>>dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is >>>>probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little >>>>difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with >>>>no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their >>>>help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. > >>>>In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I >>>>don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as >>>>possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood >>>>pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days >>>>like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance >>>>than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on >>>>these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as >>>>it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates >>>>became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, >>>>and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When >>>>classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if >>>>I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >>>>They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >>>>relationships. > >>>>The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >>>>actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible >>>>in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as >>>>people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take >>>>note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our >>>>independence and capabilities. > >>>>Sincerely, >>>>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>>>Read my blog at: >>>>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >>>>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>>>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >>>>Message: 21 >>>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >>>>From: Patrick Molloy >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >>>>Message-ID: > >>>> >>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>>>I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >>>>often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >>>>they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >>>>to be desired (if desired at all.) >>>>Patrick > > >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>nabs-l: >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >-- >Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From carlymih at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 21:26:05 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:26:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: <70A525E6E37C473E959B6E89A70E0975@cadiganpc> References: <4ebc2ceb.c1952a0a.1f09.ffff9f05SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <70A525E6E37C473E959B6E89A70E0975@cadiganpc> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111110131812.01dd7ff8@earthlink.net> Good morning, Mark, I noticed the same thing and, last semester it struck me. Those who don't feel included in the rat race because of limited English, must feel as isolated as we feel. So In us they detect an accepting person who looks to be needing of basic help that, they ar more than willing and able to lend. Personally, I feel they should be honored for actually reaching out. If we consider their isolation and that, they are only seeking to access us by way of basic help, unwanted and unsolicited, help could be easier to accept, with due grace and calm. even though it is unnecessary. It's typically faster than explaining and or arguing, especially when it seems as if the people who try to be the most helpful speak the least English. >Mark > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Molloy" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:34 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help > > >>Jedi, >>I personally find that getting frustrated really doesn't accomplish a >>whole lot. I'd much rather be firm and calm as opposed to blowing up >>at somebody when they make a simple offer. I just think it's better to >>try and reason with people than to climb onto one's soapbox. But, if >>you want to get frustrated, by all means. However, it's important to >>think of the image that this gives sighted people. There's a fine line >>between being firm and being rude, and it's important to recognize >>that. And no, I'm not "playing nice," as you put it. I'm not, however, >>going to take off someone's head just because they offered to help me >>cross a street. Quite frankly, I have more important things to worry >>about than that. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The fact >>that sighted people are asking us shows that they're thinking. Sighted >>people want to do the right thing, they just don't always know how to >>do it or what it is. >>Patrick >> >>On 11/10/11, Jedi wrote: >>>It's important to >>>>remain positive and not get too frustrated when sighted people try and >>>>help us do things. >>> >>>I think it's perfectly okay to get frustrated if that's how you feel. >>>Feel free to feel negative. And since feelings are always valid, >>>there's no such thing as getting too frustrated. This is my opinion: we >>>need to stop telling ourselves how to feel and how not to feel. Just >>>saying. In the longrun, we'll do ourselves and the sighted a >>>considerable service when we communicate through our honest feelings as >>>Arielle did rather than play nice because that's what we've been taught to >>>do. >>> >>>If it helps those of you who do get frustrated, I trust you to say >>>whatever you need to say and do so in a healthful manner for both you >>>and the sighted person involved. >>> >>>And if you really don't get frustrated, great. I trust you to say >>>whatever you need to say and do so in a healthful manner for both you >>>and the sighted person involved. >>> >>>Respectfully Submitted >>> >>> >>>Original message: >>>>Arielle, >>>>Good point. How did that guy think you got the coat on in the first >>>>place? I agree with what has been said already. It's important to >>>>remain positive and not get too frustrated when sighted people try and >>>>help us do things. The more we can doe things independently, the less >>>>sighted people will ask us if we need help. >>>>Patrick >>> >>>>On 11/10/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>Good point Bridgit. How do people think we got to the street corner in >>>>>the first place? >>>>>It also amazes me how people try to "help" me with things like putting >>>>>on my backpack or coat, and I wonder how they think I put it on the >>>>>last time I did? Do they think someone dresses me? >>>>>I was at the gym a couple weeks ago and I put my coat in a cubby >>>>>during my workout. I was halfway through putting my coat back on when >>>>>I heard some guy come up behind me breathing hard (probably from >>>>>exercising) and without any verbal warning, I felt him tug on the side >>>>>of my coat that wasn't yet on my body. Creepy! I asked him what he was >>>>>doing and he said, "can I help you put this on?" I told him I didn't >>>>>like him grabbing my coat without any warning and suggested he ask >>>>>before offering that kind of assistance. He apologized and, again, >>>>>seemed surprised that he had done anything wrong or inappropriate. >>>>>Arielle >>> >>>>>On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >>>>>>I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >>>>>>blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >>>>>>cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person >>>>>>sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not >>>>>>dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is >>>>>>probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little >>>>>>difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with >>>>>>no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their >>>>>>help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. >>> >>>>>>In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I >>>>>>don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as >>>>>>possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood >>>>>>pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days >>>>>>like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance >>>>>>than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on >>>>>>these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as >>>>>>it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates >>>>>>became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, >>>>>>and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When >>>>>>classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if >>>>>>I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >>>>>>They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >>>>>>relationships. >>> >>>>>>The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >>>>>>actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible >>>>>>in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as >>>>>>people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take >>>>>>note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our >>>>>>independence and capabilities. >>> >>>>>>Sincerely, >>>>>>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>>>>>Read my blog at: >>>>>>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>> >>>>>>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>>>>>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>> >>>>>>Message: 21 >>>>>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >>>>>>From: Patrick Molloy >>>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >>>>>>Message-ID: >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>>>>>I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >>>>>>often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >>>>>>they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >>>>>>to be desired (if desired at all.) >>>>>>Patrick >>> >>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>nabs-l: >>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>nabs-l: >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>nabs-l: >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>>-- >>>Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Thu Nov 10 22:36:25 2011 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:36:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Colorado Seeks a Chapter/Community DevelopmentStaffPerson In-Reply-To: <8B3AA623469946A2A979AFF77A09C69A@labarre> References: <8B3AA623469946A2A979AFF77A09C69A@labarre> Message-ID: Hello Scott, Is this position permanent or temporary? If it is temporary, how long do you expect this position to last? Since you are posting this announcement to a national email list, and the announcement does not state the person must currently reside in Colorado, I presume you are opening this position to anyone who may be qualified for this position regardless of their current residency. If this is the case, then I believe it is important for people to know how long this position may last in case there is anyone who may be interested in moving to Colorado to fulfill this position. Thanks, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott C. LaBarre" Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:07 PM To: "NFB Affiliate Presidents List" ; "NFB Chapter Presidents discussion list" ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" ; "NFB of Colorado Discussion List" Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Colorado Seeks a Chapter/Community DevelopmentStaffPerson > Greetings: > > The National Federation of the Blind of Colorado intends to engage in > substantial growth over the next few years. We wish to hire an individual > to serve in the role of Chapter and Community Development Coordinator. > The main objective of this position is to spread the message and > philosophy of the Federation to all parts of our state and help us > support and grow existing chapters as well as help us establish new ones. > The staff person will also help in general outreach matters to the broader > public and thereby help raise the profile of the Federation. > > The first requirement of this position is to have an individual who is > well versed in the philosophy and history of the Federation and someone > who has demonstrated leadership and capacity to build the movement. The > person must possess excellent organizational skills and have the ability > to self-motivate and stay on task. The person must be available to travel > throughout the state of Colorado and attend other national events as > assigned. A college degree or higher level of education is preferred but > necessarily mandatory. The person must be able to communicate well > through effective command of the written and spoken word including a high > level of computer literacy. Salary is dependent upon experience and > qualifications and other benefits will be made available. > > If you are interested in this position, please contact the President, > Scott LaBarre, via email at slabarre at labarrelaw.com and include your > resume and a cover letter explaining why you believe you are a candidate > for this position. The deadline for application is Thursday, November 17, > 2011. We plan to interview potential candidates in early December and > make a decision prior to the end of the year. Our goal is to have the new > staff person begin their duties in January of 2012. > Thanks, > Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > President, NFB Colorado > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and > privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may > not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this > message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or > slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This > message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Thu Nov 10 22:57:53 2011 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:57:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111110131812.01dd7ff8@earthlink.net> References: <4ebc2ceb.c1952a0a.1f09.ffff9f05SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com><70A525E6E37C473E959B6E89A70E0975@cadiganpc> <7.0.1.0.2.20111110131812.01dd7ff8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hello All, I have a rather confidential recording that is approximately three hours in length that I would like to have transcribed. Does anyone have any recommendations about how I might be able to go about getting this recording transcribed? This recording is not a class lecture. I would welcome any ideas regardless if it involves a human transcriber or transcribing technology. If you have any ideas, please contact me off list. Thanks, Elizabeth From isaiah5719 at mchsi.com Thu Nov 10 23:04:49 2011 From: isaiah5719 at mchsi.com (Loren Wakefield) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:04:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio In-Reply-To: References: <4ebc2ceb.c1952a0a.1f09.ffff9f05SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com><70A525E6E37C473E959B6E89A70E0975@cadiganpc><7.0.1.0.2.20111110131812.01dd7ff8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <356A5B9A466B43768E9371E239727C05@LorenPC> My wife says she might be interested in doing it for you. Please concact her offlist at proverbs1423 at mchsi.com Loren -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Hello All, I have a rather confidential recording that is approximately three hours in length that I would like to have transcribed. Does anyone have any recommendations about how I might be able to go about getting this recording transcribed? This recording is not a class lecture. I would welcome any ideas regardless if it involves a human transcriber or transcribing technology. If you have any ideas, please contact me off list. Thanks, Elizabeth _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 23:26:57 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:26:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: <4ebc29cf.08892a0a.74fa.210eSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4ebc29cf.08892a0a.74fa.210eSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1309521D-304E-4145-BA30-217D5F4F266E@gmail.com> Jedi wrote, > we can't claim that we want to be independent travellers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. I take this to mean that, if you are unable to travel anywhere without sighted guide, you cannot call yourself an independent traveller. This seems right and uncontroversial. But I think others, and I'm not referring to the statement above, have made statements, which I'm too lazy right now to find and cite directly, that suggest it is better, in general, not to go sighted guide even when it is available. There are times when it's appropriate no doubt, but as a rule, independence requires foregoing sighted guide even when you are walking with a sighted person. Perhaps there are more nuanced positions, and I'd be interested in hearing those, but this is a sentiment I believe I've picked up on. The thing that puzzles me is that it seems to be acceptable to "depend" on the person with whom you are walking in certain ways (for example, it's okay to listen to footsteps, or the persons voice, or follow directions like left or right), but it's not acceptable to "depend" on the person if it involves putting two fingers on the back of someone's elbow. Why is one form of dependence acceptable while the other is not? Now, this could be a difference in the definition of sighted guide. When I go sighted guide, I continue to rely on my cane to find curbs, stairs, poles, etc. I've always thought it strange to put the cane away during sighted guide, not because I care about dependence or independence, but because I would feel unsafe. I suppose if you put away the cane and relied exclusively on the sighted person, this would constitute a difference between sighted guide and listening to footsteps, but as I said, this isn't my version of sighted guide. For me, a light touch on the elbow is just a more convenient way of tracking the person with whom I'm talking than is listening to footsteps or voice. I do the same thing with my girlfriend who is also blind. I go sighted guide nearly all of the time when I'm walking and talking with another person even if that person is not sighted. Obviously, if I'm travelling alone, there is no sighted guide, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that. I don't think this is a matter of dependence or independence since, whether I depend on footsteps/voice/directions or a light touch on the elbow, I'm equally dependent. To me, this is a matter of convenience. I could go from my apartment to my office, which involves a bus ride, an LRT ride, and a walk across campus, without my cane. I've walked it enough times that I'm sure I could do it, but it would be far less convenient to do it this way. Yet no one would suggest that I'm dependent on my cane, or at least no one would suggest that I ought to try to be less dependent on my cane. Similarly, when I'm having a conversation or receiving assistance from another person, I could listen to footsteps/voice/directions, but I find this far less convenient than lightly touching an elbow. I recognize that some people may see this and believe that I could not do it on my own, but they would be mistaken. I also know that those same people might assume that all blind people are like me and would not be able to do it on their own either and that these beliefs might affect, probably negatively, their interactions with other blind people. Again, however, this would be their mistake, their prejudice, and their discrimination. And while I regret that situation, I won't let people's ignorance and stupidity dictate my behaviour. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-10, at 12:44 PM, Jedi wrote: > Bridgit, > > I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, walking alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think those blindness attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with you that our actions mean a lot; we can't claim that we want to be independent travelers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. I'm sorry to say that this is one of the few situations in which we can't have our cake and eat it, too. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >> blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >> cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person >> sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not >> dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is >> probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little >> difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with >> no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their >> help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. > >> In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I >> don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as >> possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood >> pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days >> like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance >> than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on >> these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as >> it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates >> became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, >> and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When >> classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if >> I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >> They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >> relationships. > >> The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >> actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible >> in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as >> people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take >> note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our >> independence and capabilities. > >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >> Message: 21 >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >> From: Patrick Molloy >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >> Message-ID: > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >> often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >> they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >> to be desired (if desired at all.) >> Patrick > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 23:40:36 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:40:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: <1309521D-304E-4145-BA30-217D5F4F266E@gmail.com> References: <4ebc29cf.08892a0a.74fa.210eSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <1309521D-304E-4145-BA30-217D5F4F266E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B2D32252DF94D9AAF38B4AC6AC9DC43@OwnerPC> Mark, I agree with you. I go sighted guide a lot when walking and talking with another person. Its easier to keep in contact with them and faster. Also, if I I use my cane, it might trip them. If you follow them, where does the person stand so your cane isn't in the way? If they're ahead of you, they cannot see your cane arc. Do they walk behind and give directions? We cannot say we're independent and get a sighted guide everywhere we go. Yet, in some circumstances, I think sighted guide is appropriate. It just depends. IMO, independence means we're in control of where we go and what we're doing. So going out for dinner and grabbing an elbowof a companion seems reasonable. You made a decision where to go and how to get there and likely you'll use one group member as a reader of your bill and the menu. I guess we balance when to use a guide. Mark, yes you can hang on to a blind person. That is why they call it human guide now, not sighted guide. O&M instructors changed the term recognizing that blind people can and do guide each other. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help Jedi wrote, > we can't claim that we want to be independent travellers and ask for a > sighted guide everywhere we go. I take this to mean that, if you are unable to travel anywhere without sighted guide, you cannot call yourself an independent traveller. This seems right and uncontroversial. But I think others, and I'm not referring to the statement above, have made statements, which I'm too lazy right now to find and cite directly, that suggest it is better, in general, not to go sighted guide even when it is available. There are times when it's appropriate no doubt, but as a rule, independence requires foregoing sighted guide even when you are walking with a sighted person. Perhaps there are more nuanced positions, and I'd be interested in hearing those, but this is a sentiment I believe I've picked up on. The thing that puzzles me is that it seems to be acceptable to "depend" on the person with whom you are walking in certain ways (for example, it's okay to listen to footsteps, or the persons voice, or follow directions like left or right), but it's not acceptable to "depend" on the person if it involves putting two fingers on the back of someone's elbow. Why is one form of dependence acceptable while the other is not? Now, this could be a difference in the definition of sighted guide. When I go sighted guide, I continue to rely on my cane to find curbs, stairs, poles, etc. I've always thought it strange to put the cane away during sighted guide, not because I care about dependence or independence, but because I would feel unsafe. I suppose if you put away the cane and relied exclusively on the sighted person, this would constitute a difference between sighted guide and listening to footsteps, but as I said, this isn't my version of sighted guide. For me, a light touch on the elbow is just a more convenient way of tracking the person with whom I'm talking than is listening to footsteps or voice. I do the same thing with my girlfriend who is also blind. I go sighted guide nearly all of the time when I'm walking and talking with another person even if that person is not sighted. Obviously, if I'm travelling alone, there is no sighted guide, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that. I don't think this is a matter of dependence or independence since, whether I depend on footsteps/voice/directions or a light touch on the elbow, I'm equally dependent. To me, this is a matter of convenience. I could go from my apartment to my office, which involves a bus ride, an LRT ride, and a walk across campus, without my cane. I've walked it enough times that I'm sure I could do it, but it would be far less convenient to do it this way. Yet no one would suggest that I'm dependent on my cane, or at least no one would suggest that I ought to try to be less dependent on my cane. Similarly, when I'm having a conversation or receiving assistance from another person, I could listen to footsteps/voice/directions, but I find this far less convenient than lightly touching an elbow. I recognize that some people may see this and believe that I could not do it on my own, but they would be mistaken. I also know that those same people might assume that all blind people are like me and would not be able to do it on their own either and that these beliefs might affect, probably negatively, their interactions with other blind people. Again, however, this would be their mistake, their prejudice, and their discrimination. And while I regret that situation, I won't let people's ignorance and stupidity dictate my behaviour. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-10, at 12:44 PM, Jedi wrote: > Bridgit, > > I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, walking > alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think those blindness > attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with you that our actions mean > a lot; we can't claim that we want to be independent travelers and ask for > a sighted guide everywhere we go. I'm sorry to say that this is one of the > few situations in which we can't have our cake and eat it, too. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >> blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >> cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person >> sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not >> dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is >> probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little >> difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with >> no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their >> help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. > >> In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I >> don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as >> possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood >> pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days >> like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance >> than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on >> these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as >> it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates >> became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, >> and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When >> classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if >> I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >> They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >> relationships. > >> The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >> actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible >> in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as >> people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take >> note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our >> independence and capabilities. > >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >> Message: 21 >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >> From: Patrick Molloy >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >> Message-ID: > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >> often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >> they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >> to be desired (if desired at all.) >> Patrick > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 23:57:15 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:57:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arielle, I agree with you. I am startled when I'm grabbed with no prior verbal communication. Being grabbed is a dignity and safety issue. It throws off my balance as well and I'm worried where they're taking me. I speak up, and usually am polite saying to them to let go and I'm alright. If that doesn't work I'm more firm and I might have to disengage my arm, but that is rare. Like you, I might encounter someone whom I got directions or information from, then they say something like "come, I'll help you get there." If I choose to go with them, I ask to follow them or go sighted guide. If they touch my arm, I say "no, I would rather hold your arm by the elbow." Other times, verbal info is enough, and I decline their offer. I won't hide my annoyance about the grabbing thing. Like other ladies have said, I find it especially uncomfortable for a stranger of the male gender to invade my space and do this. However, I think that has only happended a few times. Any other time, such a maneuver would be considered harrassment. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:43 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. Hi all, I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the silent grab scares me to death! Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask someone for information or directions, they will answer my question and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I had done it myself. Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're behind them than if you're in front of them? Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 00:09:36 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:09:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7EC0C85A0E8F4DCC89736A62205F4FE1@OwnerPC> Arielle, That would be a problem. I'd say the same thing, telling them I am fine and need to hear traffic to make a safe crossing. But, I'll admit, I cannot always figure out the traffic cycle/pattern. Yes I know when there's a surge of parallel traffic. But its not always clear; for one thing, there may be insufficient traffic. For another, there may be so many turning cars that its not clear which street is going. So, I might actually get help if they want to help, but I'll go sighted guide then. But if we're walking up to a street and intend to cross independently, isn't it something how sighted people get interested in us. I mean, how do they think we got to the street in the first place? I think its just that in urban areas there are many pedestrians and they don't know how we cross streets; so many want to help. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 10:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. OMG don't get me started about people trying to talk to me while I am crossing the street or waiting to do so. I didn't get good training or practice with street crossing until just a few years ago, so I find crossing big streets or unfamiliar intersections takes a lot of focus and concentration. I will usually say "I need you to be quiet so I can hear traffic" if people try to converse and this also works fairly well. Best, Arielle On 11/8/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Vejas, > It sounds like you did all the right things. If you told this guy you > were good and he still kept trying to help you and you told him again, > there's nothing wrong with that. While I haven't had the exact same > problem that you had, I can't tell you the number of times that people > come up to me on the street corner and try to help me cross. More > often than not, the person talks just as the cars I'm listening for > pull out, so by trying to help, they're actually being more of a > hinderance. I always try and remain positive and upbeat with these > people though and I calmly and politely explain that, no thanks, I > don't need their help. I find this works better than getting mad about > it. Most people mean well and want to do the right thing, but they > just have the wrong way of going about it. If we, that is to say the > blind community, can keep our cool when these people come up in our > daily lives, we'll wind up helping both us and them. Us in that the > next blind person one of these sighted people meets, they will know > what to do or not do and not do any of the things that we've been > talking about in this thread. And them in that we will be able to > educate people and make them more understanding. This in turn comes > back to my previous statement about remaining positive. Because blind > people are a minority, sighted people don't encounter too many of us. > If we always get mad right away, we'll wind up alienating more people > than we make friends with. Case and point: Once a guy came up to me > while I was learning my college's campus and asked if I needed help > getting to a particular place. I told him no, we got to talking, and > now we're really good friends. Hence, the importance of being > positive. Well, that was a lot more than I originally intended to > write, but that's my opinion. > Patrick > > On 11/8/11, vejas wrote: >> So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a >> freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing >> my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he >> didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My >> aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting >> for myself. What are your thoughts on this? >> Vejas >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: Student Division > Date sent: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 20:08:43 -0600 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >> >> >> Arielle, >> >> Don't feel bad about losing your calm with people who grab you >> especially those who silently grab. Any other situation, this >> would be called harassment, but because we are blind, it suddenly >> turns into charity. I'll hit strangers who grab me. I don't >> know what their intentions are, and it's just a gut reaction. I >> don't purposely go around seeking people to beat up on, but if a >> complete stranger grabs me, my natural instinct is to protect >> myself. Physical contact is one thing I don't think we need be >> diplomatic and patient with. No one has the right to touch us >> even if out of kindness. Does not common sense dictate that if >> I'm out on my own I'm probably okay and don't require assistance? >> Grabbing, or touching in any way, is crossing a line, and we >> shouldn't feel bad about reacting. As I said, especially for >> women, in any other context, grabbing a person would constitute >> to harassment. >> >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> bpollpeter at hotmail.com >> >> LiveWellNebraska.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 00:17:11 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:17:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I kind of said the same thing. Interesting to walk about independently. Like if I take the metro and exit the station and get to a corner, and someone shows up wanting to help. Wouldn't they think that we're okay if we just came from the station or wherever and to corner A alone? I just accept or decline it accordingly. In my area there are confusing lights or if you're around mid day, I don't hear enough traffic. I don't find street crossings straightforward especially the ons with the push buttons. So, I might want help. I find if I want help or need to ask something, sighted people are not around, or I cannot get their attention. Yet, when I'm fine, they show up in numbers. Oh well, that's the world for you. People are so busy on their cell phones or Ipods that its hard to get their attention. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 11:22 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate relationships. The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our independence and capabilities. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 21 Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 From: Patrick Molloy To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot to be desired (if desired at all.) Patrick _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Nov 11 00:17:21 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:17:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That kind of thing must be avoided all the time. A man isn't supposed to touch a woman inappropriately, anyway. Personal space should always be respected. I taught on that, as well. I told the men, if you have a female customer, at a store you're working at, don't grab her, when she needs assistance. I told them to do as I showed them, and do regular sighted guide if necessary. Blessings, Joshua On 11/10/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > As a woman it's not just an issue of independence vs. dependence, but > an issue of personal space and bodily integrity. In our culture, a man > touching or grabbing a woman has certain connotations that are > undesirable in most situations especially if the man and woman don't > have a pre-existing relationship. In other words, having a male > stranger, dentist, teacher or acquaintance put his arm around me or > touch me in ways my boyfriend does is not appropriate. Granted, the > personal space issue is still important regardless of gender, but > across gender lines these kinds of violations are especially > egregious. > Arielle > > On 11/10/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> You're right, Bridgett. >> I tell people all the time, that I prefer that they don't do sighted >> guide, when I can get where I need to go on my own. >> I tell them, if they insist, that if they're going to do it, they need >> to do it right. >> They don't like that. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >>> We are not obligated to take assistance just because others think we >>> require it. Even when being diplomatic and kind in return, we're not >>> obligated to do this. If we feel awkward or uncomfortable about being >>> offered, or in many cases forced, sighted assistance, we don't need to >>> take it or feel bad about declining it. Despite what we are often told, >>> and how society views us, we are capable and can think for ourselves. If >>> we want assistance of any kind, we know when and how to use it, and it >>> is up to us to ask, and decline, for assistance. We don't have to hurt >>> feelings or be aggressive about it, but no one is obligated to accept >>> assistance if it's not wanted. >>> >>> I had a dentist who, though nice enough, always insisted he or a staff >>> member guided me around his office. His office was extremely tiny so >>> even if I wanted help, it didn't make much sense in such a small >>> environment. I always had to assert myself in stating thanks, but no >>> thanks. The final straw was when he insisted on walking me out to the >>> waiting area and when I removed my hand from his arm, he grabbed it and >>> tucked it underneath his arm. I again removed my hand, and he again >>> grabbed it. I gently explained that when I decline assistance, it is my >>> decision and no one should force anything on me. Especially as a woman, >>> I'm not comfortable with men refusing to accept the fact that I don't >>> need assistance. It's not a feminist thing so much as a I'm not >>> comfortable with men I barely know asserting anything over me when I >>> haven't asked for it or declined it. I have since switched dentists. >>> >>> So no one should feel obligated to accept assistance unless it's what >>> you want. We are the ones who make decisions for ourselves; we control >>> our own lives; no one has the right to expect, and force, anything on us >>> even if done out of kindness. Don't be mean or rude, but don't feel as >>> though you have to "submit" to a person's insistance that you take >>> assistance. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>> Read my blog at: >>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>> >>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>> >>> Message: 16 >>> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 18:17:45 -0800 >>> From: vejas >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >>> list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >>> Message-ID: <4eb9e2d9.f05c340a.50d1.ffffaf6d at mx.google.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed >>> >>> So I guess we don't need to be nice about grabbing? I'm a >>> freshman in high school, and one time a senior started grabbing >>> my elbow. I told him politely that I could do it myself, but he >>> didn't listen, so finally I said he could "go to class now." My >>> aide thought I was being rude, but I felt as if I was adovacting >>> for myself. What are your thoughts on this? >>> Vejas >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 00:24:01 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:24:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6665A6C840C14530B44300DAEA6D4EB5@OwnerPC> Arielle, OOh, that is scary! A guy grabbed you in the gym as you were putting on a coat! Well, I have the opposite experience. People often walk by me and I cannot get their attention. I might be looking for an empty locker while other ladies go to theirs and go about their business of putting stuff in or getting it out. So I find an empty one and use it and go on to workout. If I need help, I approach someone and ask. If people interact, they do so in a polite way and often its general conversation, not related to helping or not. Its just talk like they would approach any other member. Like we might talk about spin class or the latest class the gym offers. Its unfortunate I find most classes too visual to follow. I wouldn't know the moves and what they're doing. I have some basic moves with dumb bels and body bars and just using my body, but I certainly couldn't do everything in a class. I wish I could as its so fun though. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 11:49 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help Good point Bridgit. How do people think we got to the street corner in the first place? It also amazes me how people try to "help" me with things like putting on my backpack or coat, and I wonder how they think I put it on the last time I did? Do they think someone dresses me? I was at the gym a couple weeks ago and I put my coat in a cubby during my workout. I was halfway through putting my coat back on when I heard some guy come up behind me breathing hard (probably from exercising) and without any verbal warning, I felt him tug on the side of my coat that wasn't yet on my body. Creepy! I asked him what he was doing and he said, "can I help you put this on?" I told him I didn't like him grabbing my coat without any warning and suggested he ask before offering that kind of assistance. He apologized and, again, seemed surprised that he had done anything wrong or inappropriate. Arielle On 11/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to > blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like > cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person > sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not > dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is > probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little > difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with > no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their > help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. > > In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I > don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as > possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood > pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days > like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance > than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on > these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as > it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates > became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, > and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When > classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if > I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. > They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate > relationships. > > The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our > actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible > in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as > people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take > note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our > independence and capabilities. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 21 > Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 > From: Patrick Molloy > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people > often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, > they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot > to be desired (if desired at all.) > Patrick > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 00:43:51 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:43:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4ebc6fe7.4a5a340a.186c.fffffd65@mx.google.com> Hi Jedi, Wow!!! That is AWESOME! You just said exactly (in my opinion) what needs to be said, and you said it very well! I would be very happy to work with you, as I agree with you in all of your opinions! Email me offlist, please, and tell me what you're doing and how I can help! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Jedi Jedi wrote, >> we can't claim that we want to be independent travellers and ask for a >> sighted guide everywhere we go. > I take this to mean that, if you are unable to travel anywhere without > sighted guide, you cannot call yourself an independent traveller. This > seems right and uncontroversial. But I think others, and I'm not > referring to the statement above, have made statements, which I'm too > lazy right now to find and cite directly, that suggest it is better, in > general, not to go sighted guide even when it is available. There are > times when it's appropriate no doubt, but as a rule, independence > requires foregoing sighted guide even when you are walking with a > sighted person. Perhaps there are more nuanced positions, and I'd be > interested in hearing those, but this is a sentiment I believe I've > picked up on. > The thing that puzzles me is that it seems to be acceptable to "depend" > on the person with whom you are walking in certain ways (for example, > it's okay to listen to footsteps, or the persons voice, or follow > directions like left or right), but it's not acceptable to "depend" on > the person if it involves putting two fingers on the back of someone's > elbow. Why is one form of dependence acceptable while the other is not? > Now, this could be a difference in the definition of sighted guide. > When I go sighted guide, I continue to rely on my cane to find curbs, > stairs, poles, etc. I've always thought it strange to put the cane > away during sighted guide, not because I care about dependence or > independence, but because I would feel unsafe. I suppose if you put > away the cane and relied exclusively on the sighted person, this would > constitute a difference between sighted guide and listening to > footsteps, but as I said, this isn't my version of sighted guide. For > me, a light touch on the elbow is just a more convenient way of > tracking the person with whom I'm talking than is listening to > footsteps or voice. I do the same thing with my girlfriend who is also blind. > I go sighted guide nearly all of the time when I'm walking and talking > with another person even if that person is not sighted. Obviously, if > I'm travelling alone, there is no sighted guide, and I'm perfectly > comfortable with that. I don't think this is a matter of dependence or > independence since, whether I depend on footsteps/voice/directions or a > light touch on the elbow, I'm equally dependent. To me, this is a > matter of convenience. I could go from my apartment to my office, > which involves a bus ride, an LRT ride, and a walk across campus, > without my cane. I've walked it enough times that I'm sure I could do > it, but it would be far less convenient to do it this way. Yet no one > would suggest that I'm dependent on my cane, or at least no one would > suggest that I ought to try to be less dependent on my cane. > Similarly, when I'm having a conversation or receiving assistance from > another person, I could listen to footsteps/voice/directions, but I > find this far less conve > nient than lightly touching an elbow. > I recognize that some people may see this and believe that I could not > do it on my own, but they would be mistaken. I also know that those > same people might assume that all blind people are like me and would > not be able to do it on their own either and that these beliefs might > affect, probably negatively, their interactions with other blind > people. Again, however, this would be their mistake, their prejudice, > and their discrimination. And while I regret that situation, I won't > let people's ignorance and stupidity dictate my behaviour. > Cheers, > Marc > On 2011-11-10, at 12:44 PM, Jedi wrote: >> Bridgit, >> I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, walking >> alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think those >> blindness attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with you that our >> actions mean a lot; we can't claim that we want to be independent >> travelers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. I'm sorry to >> say that this is one of the few situations in which we can't have our >> cake and eat it, too. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >>> blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >>> cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person >>> sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not >>> dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is >>> probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little >>> difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with >>> no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their >>> help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. >>> In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I >>> don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as >>> possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood >>> pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days >>> like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance >>> than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on >>> these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as >>> it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates >>> became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, >>> and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When >>> classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if >>> I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >>> They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >>> relationships. >>> The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >>> actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible >>> in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as >>> people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take >>> note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our >>> independence and capabilities. >>> Sincerely, >>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>> Read my blog at: >>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>> Message: 21 >>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >>> From: Patrick Molloy >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >>> often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >>> they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >>> to be desired (if desired at all.) >>> Patrick >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 01:23:08 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:23:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions Message-ID: <4ebc791c.09b9340a.364b.07db@mx.google.com> Hi Justin, I know that the Kindles themselves aren't accessible, and that the Federation is trying to change this. As far as the Stream, do you know what format the Kindle books are in? If they are EPUB, they can be played on the Stream, I believe. DAISY books can also be played on the Stream. My guess, however, would be that the Kindle would have their books in a specialized format just for the Kindle, but I don't know. Do you know what format the Kindle books come in? Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Young Hi Beth, Now, I have to first say to everyone that this is a good discussion, but I hope we don't get too off topic, and I really hope this discussion doesn't turn into another one like the one we had in September. Not saying that anyone is doing anything like that, but just a fair warning. Beth, as for all religions, there are radicals in all religions. There are a few Muslims who I know (including you now, BTW, give me a call on Skype sometime, haven't been able to get a hold of you on Skype in a while,) and my beliefs on the Muslim religion as a whole have changed since I met one. I first thought that they were some radical religious movement which believed in terrorism and holy war. But I learned that this isn't the case for many Muslims; in fact, many of you denounce (or at least don't agree with) what the extremists do. Similarly, while I respect your ability to make decisions about your religious beliefs and your conversion to Islam, I just want to let you know that many Christians (like myself and other blind Christians) don't believe what your family members believe. I have never run into problems at my church with Christianity and blindness, and I don't think a lot of Christians believe that blindness is unbearable. Well, let's just point out that many members of the sighted public, regardless of their religion, believe that blindness is unbearable. The only time I ran into any problems with misconceptions about blindness and religion together was when I was on an O and M lesson in my hometown this summer and a really elderly gengleman came up to us (my instructor and I) just as I was preparing to cross the street, (he scared me a little) and started asking my teacher (like she was supposed to be speaking for me) if I wanted to be put on his church's prayer list. Thankfully, she told him that he could ask me and that I was old enough to make those kinds of decisions on my own. When he (reluctantly enough) finally asked me, I answered, "Thank you for the consideration, but why exactly do you want to pray for me? I'm not sick, nor am I in some kind of emotional trouble." He answered that he wanted to pray for me because I was "um... unsighted" and he wanted Jesus to "heal" me. Then, once again turning to my teacher, he asked, "How long has he been that way?" That's right, "that way!" He couldn't even bring himself to say the word blind, lest the mere mention of the word offend me, even when he knew I was travelling and functioning pretty independently and confidently, and seemed to have no problem whatsoever with the fact that I was blind! She then prompted him once again to talk to me, and he asked me the question. Politely enough, I answered "I was born blind," putting a little emphasis on the word blind. Starting to stare at me in what was probably wonder at my independence, he said, "You're born that way! Well, that's something! Well we'll pray for you!" I thanked him for the prayer, and said that "if you put me on your prayer list, I hope you will also pray that sighted people will see that blind people can be on terms of equality with them, and that we're just as capable as them, although we might do things differently. If sighted people see this, then I pray that there will be no more discrimination against the blind just because we're blind." I didn't say those exact words, but it was pretty much the same. So there you have it. Misconceptions rear their ugly head yet again, and I hope I got the point across. To close, I will say this; you've probably heard the old saying "Agitate, agitate, agitate." Well, for us, it's "Educate, educate, educate!" Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Beth References: <4ebc791c.09b9340a.364b.07db@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Not a clue, but it diidn't work. It wouldn't even read it with JAWS. So, I'm thinking it won't read it. Its some special thing for the kindel itself unfortunately. Great to hear this is on the Federation's list On 11/10/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Justin, > > I know that the Kindles themselves aren't accessible, and that > the Federation is trying to change this. As far as the Stream, > do you know what format the Kindle books are in? If they are > EPUB, they can be played on the Stream, I believe. DAISY books > can also be played on the Stream. My guess, however, would be > that the Kindle would have their books in a specialized format > just for the Kindle, but I don't know. Do you know what format > the Kindle books come in? > > Chris > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Young To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 00:21:54 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Tech Questions > > Hi all! > > Hope alls great with you all! I have a few questions. Have any > of > you attempted to use the book readers called Kindels? I was > curious > to hear if their electronic books are compatible with the Victor > Reader Stream? I don't know much about how it works, but from > what > I've noticed they are kind of the same idea so I was just curious > if > any of you knew whether or not the books read on the kindel could > be > read on the stream. > > Any thoughts are as always very much appreciated! > > Thanks, > > Justin > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 01:43:32 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:43:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] blindness Vs other minority groups Message-ID: <4ebc7de4.8406340a.6c70.0b73@mx.google.com> Great post, Alex! Very well written, and I totally agree! ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexander Castillo Hi=20Ashley, I'm=20not=20on=20FaithTalk=20(yet,)=20but=20it=20sounds=20good.=20=20This=20= isn't=20an=20 email=20list,=20but=20it=20is=20also=20good.=20=20There=20is=20a=20chat=20l= ine=20called=20the=20 Conversation=20Station=20for=20blind=20people,=20where=20people=20can=20set= =20up=20 chat=20rooms=20in=20which=20they=20can=20hold=20conferences=20on=20certain= =20topics=20 or=20just=20have=20a=20general=20chat.=20=20Room=207729,=20called=20the=20L= ighthouse,=20 on=20that=20line,=20is=20a=20Christian=20talk=20room=20where=20there=20are= =20a=20lot=20of=20 different=20conferences=20on=20many=20different=20topics.=20=20Each=20day,= =20there=20 is=20also=20a=20morning=20and=20evening=20Christian=20fellowship.=20=20You= =20could=20 probably=20go=20as=20deep=20as=20you=20want=20there.=20=20To=20call=20in,=20= call=20 231-224-7222,=20hit=201=20for=20live=20chat=20rooms,=20and=20type=20in=2077= 29=20 followed=20by=20pound=20when=20asked=20for=20the=20room=20number.=20=20I'll= =20email=20you=20 off=20list=20with=20some=20time=20information,=20as=20I=20don't=20have=20it= =20in=20front=20 of=20me=20at=20the=20moment,=20nor=20do=20I=20remember=20the=20schedule.=20= =20The=20 moderator,=20Pat=20Hawkins,=20usually=20sends=20out=20a=20schedule=20each=20= week=20 for=20her=20room=20to=20the=20Conversation=20Station's=20list. Chris =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20 Hi=20Andrew, Thanks=20for=20the=20information!=20I=20will=20definitely=20check=20some=20= of=20these=20 out! Chris =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Andrew=20Edgcumbe=20=20wrote: =20Hi=20all, =20I=20was=20wondering=20if=20there=20are=20Christian=20lists=20for=20blind= =20people=20or=20 ones=20in =20general=20you=92d=20recommend.=20=20I=20see=20the=20faith-talk,=20but=20= you=20cannot=20 go=20too=20deep =20into=20theology=20there. =20I=92m=20probably=20going=20to=20join=20a=20bible=20study,=20but=20the=20= good=20thing=20 about=20email=20is =20you=20can=20participate=20anytime. =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40 gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 02:06:34 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:06:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Christian lists In-Reply-To: <4ebc7df1.8406340a.6c70.0b7d@mx.google.com> References: <4ebc7df1.8406340a.6c70.0b7d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <26217D19AE334BA59A274A2B736510EA@OwnerPC> Chris, This sounds like something I'd like. Are these phone conferences or chat rooms on the computer? -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 8:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Christian lists Hi Ashley, I'm not on FaithTalk (yet,) but it sounds good. This isn't an email list, but it is also good. There is a chat line called the Conversation Station for blind people, where people can set up chat rooms in which they can hold conferences on certain topics or just have a general chat. Room 7729, called the Lighthouse, on that line, is a Christian talk room where there are a lot of different conferences on many different topics. Each day, there is also a morning and evening Christian fellowship. You could probably go as deep as you want there. To call in, call 231-224-7222, hit 1 for live chat rooms, and type in 7729 followed by pound when asked for the room number. I'll email you off list with some time information, as I don't have it in front of me at the moment, nor do I remember the schedule. The moderator, Pat Hawkins, usually sends out a schedule each week for her room to the Conversation Station's list. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" The Student Slate committee is interested in hearing from you. In our holiday slate, we want to feature some of your favorite holiday memories and traditions. So, stop studying, and get excited about your upcoming breaks by telling us how your holidays are unique. Please keep submissions to a couple of paragraphs or less and send them to me at clb5590 at gmail.com by Friday, November 18. Please do not reply to this message with them. Depending on the number of submissions we receive, we may not be able to publish all of them, but we appreciate all submissions. Happy writing! -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From ignasicambra at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 05:56:11 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ignasi_Cambra_D=EDaz?=) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 00:56:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] techniques for shopping and trends In-Reply-To: References: <4ea74046.b31a340a.2ca4.689a@mx.google.com> <4EA772D1.5040905@gmail.com> <1AE3F50DC5734105817DDECCE7D49DA2@OwnerPC> <6C34A1CC4635407192A1AD91CD8E9EF3@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <03670D9A-D56E-482C-BB58-959B6A383CD6@gmail.com> I generally give advice to my girlfriend only :). Somehow it's quite easy for me to decide whether I like how something feels on her or not. In the end she always ends up choosing though, but she keeps asking for my opinion. That's probably why I've developed some kind of personal taste, which will probably not work for anyone other than her… I would definitely not know how to give advice to some other friend or just a random person... On Oct 28, 2011, at 7:54 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > I'm curious whether anyone who has been blind since birth/childhood > has figured out how to give people good feedback on clothes they try > on, etc. and if so what techniques do you use? I too enjoy shopping > with friends and family and I would love to be able to help them pick > out stuff but I don't really get a sense of what looks good or not > based on a description, I think because I have never actually seen > colors etc. Do you guys get a sense for whether something fits right > by feeling it on someone who's wearing it? > Best, > Arielle > > On 10/26/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Ah, I wish we had a Belks up here. We shop at Macy's most often and a little >> at bloomingdales. >> When I was down south to see relatives, I liked Belks and Dillards; good >> selection and well laid out. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lea williams >> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:48 PM >> To: Debbie Wunder ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] techniques for shopping and trends >> >> Hey I shop a lot with the help of the workers. I went a couple of >> weeks ago to get some shoes and an outfit. I first went to the shoe >> shop and just walked in and asked for help after walking through the >> store to hunt someone down. NP. I knew that i wanted sneakers or tenis >> shoes, whatever you call them and got a pair. But if your not sure, >> just tell them what stile of clothes you would wear with them, dressy, >> casual, fancey etc. You can also ask what color close the shoes would >> best work with. I got a pair of heels and I told them I primarily wear >> dark blue dressy geans and black slacks or dark kackey and they were >> able to tell me what color would go best with the colors. They took me >> to an ile to let me loose alone in my size while the lady went and >> found a helper for me. The worker came and I told her kind of what I >> was looking for and she picked out things that was around that would >> have worked and i chose from there. >> I have found telling them and asking a lot of things helps the both of >> you. If your not sure or understanding what they are saying, then ask >> loads of questions. It is your money your spending and if you buy it, >> it is you who takes it home not them. >> After this i went to Belks and had the lady there help me find an >> outfit. That one was a bit more tricky because she took me to the back >> and was trying to get me to pick from two tops that were hanging up on >> the wal. I did not like them and just started to wonder off and >> saying, "so whats over here or there"? We then discoverd that the >> store was filled with loads of clothes that were not on the wall. >> Waow! >> I did find a nice outfit, something that was on sale and cost less >> than the things on the wall by the way. >> Something you could do is to find out what your colors are, google. I >> Google a lot of things. You can put in Google, >> What style and color of clothes works best for me? >> and you can find bloggs that says, if your dark haired with whatever >> skin, wear this and that. they usually say spring, wenter, summer or >> fall colors, but the give good information. Then when your shopping, >> you have more of an idea of what colors to pick. >> If your not shure if something will fit, Ask them what do they think, >> will it fit you or not? I do this all the time , Sometimes a small is >> really a medium etc... >> They will help, and if they have small children or kids at home or >> even have raised them, they do a great job because they do it with >> their own children and it is second nature for them. >> If your still not sure, take a few sizes and hold on till you have a >> few things and then go try them on. The worst is to get home and not >> like what you buy because it's to tight or loose. >> And like I said, google, google google. >> Not just >> What is in season? >> But also >> How to choose shoes for an outfit? >> Or Will a blue shirt go with kackey pants? >> or >> What color tops to wear with dark/lite/etc bottoms? >> What kind of tops to wear with (fill in the blank) pants/skirts... >> Be kind of spisific but not spisific. If you know your body shape, google >> What style of clothes looks best for my body shape? >> Man if i had money to spend on clothes and not bills, I would go >> shopping more often. >> You could also do this with hair styles etc... >> >> If your worried that they might be to busy to shop with you, call them >> and tell them your blind and interested in shopping there and when >> would be the best time of the day to come in. Some places will say mid >> day because they have more workers, and some will say earlier or later >> because their is less custermers. It is the prefrence of the store. If >> you find someone you really like shopping with, get their name and ask >> them when they normally work. I do this and then the next time I went >> I asked for them. this is a wonderful thing for them and they get high >> marks from there bosses for being requested. >> I would too ask if there might be someone close to your age who could >> help you shop for clothes because their style would be better than >> someone or is either a lot older or younger than you. I had an older >> women helping me and she did not try to pick out anything to old >> fashion , but what i got was so much better than what she was trying >> to get me to by. >> a lot of it does come from expirience and confidence though. Know what >> to ask and not being easily timpted to get whatever they hand you is >> good and try to ask yourself and be aunist with yourself if you really >> like the stuff. I know if i am nervous, I am more likely to buy >> something I do not like because I am more influenced than when I fill >> cunfirtable. >> >> HTH >> >> On 10/26/11, Debbie Wunder wrote: >>> Hi Ashley, I find that if I am shopping alone, and not with a friend or >>> one >>> of my daughters, if I go to the counter and ask for assistance, mostly >>> people are very willing to help. It of course depends on the store, I have >>> had good luck at JC Pennys or Dillards, also some smaller ladies shops. If >>> you develope a relationship with a store manager, they seem to enjoy >>> helping. >>> >>> It is important to me to have some one that I value thei opinion. The one >>> thing that I have found that my youngest daughter is quick to tell me is >>> that some things do not feel cute, and some feel cute that are not. >>> Sometimes I here from my daught,No, mom. smile >>> >>> Debbie >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>> To: ; "National Association of Blind >>> Students >>> mailing list" >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 9:58 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] techniques for shopping and trends >>> >>> >>>> Sam, >>>> Thanks. And that's the technique I was thinking of! As we know, shoes are >>>> laid out on racks, in rows. I figured I could go up to one, for instance >>>> the sandles if that interests me, and feel them. Then get a sales >>>> associate to help me pick the size, color, etc from there. Actually, they >>>> are supposed to help anyone; they will measure your feet to find out the >>>> right size. >>>> >>>> We've gotten assistance for shoe fitting before, but family has done the >>>> browsing. Glad to know another blind person does this. I have a little >>>> vision, so may be able to see the colors and that will aid me in going to >>>> the right shoe row. >>>> My shoes are wearing out. I want some new blue easy spirit shoes to go >>>> with slacks. And I need new sandles for next summer. So I definitely can >>>> do some shoe shopping. IMO, since shoe department staff are expected to >>>> measure feet and pick out shoes from the stock room my impression is they >>>> have more sales staff on hand. I notice when shopping with my mother that >>>> its easy to get help in the shoe department typically, but if you have a >>>> question in the clothes department, you'll be waiting a long time! >>>> Sighted >>>> >>>> people need help finding a size or a particular brand sometimes; after >>>> all >>>> >>>> department stores are huge! But since the coporation wants to keep all >>>> the >>>> >>>> money, they are stingy about hiring adaquate sales staff to assist >>>> customers. Another good thing about shoe departments or shoe stores is >>>> I've noticed their customer service is overall better. If you need to >>>> order shoes, they take care of that well. Clothes stores aren't the >>>> greatest; they may take your order, but fail to notify you when its in or >>>> enter the rong thing in. >>>> >>>> I wonder if new balance shoes or Niki are more popular. >>>> >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Sam Hogle >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 10:39 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] techniques for shopping and trends >>>> >>>> Hi Ashley. I've gone shoe shopping before, and to me, they are some of >>>> the easiest items to pick out. When I go shoe shopping, I find out where >>>> the shoes are, and go down the line feeling each one. Some may find that >>>> weird, but if they were to say anything, I would respond with at least >>>> I'm doing it independently. Anyway, if I find any that I'm interested >>>> in, I then ask someone to describe those to me. The description would be >>>> stuff like brand name or color. Then, based on what I like and what I >>>> know from others about what the trend is, I make my selection. Hope this >>>> helps. >>>> Sam >>>> On 10/25/2011 9:59 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Thanks Chris. >>>>> Maybe others will chime in later. I heard that personal shoppers is >>>>> one technique. I wonder how that works though. Do they select clothes >>>>> based on skin tone and size? I wonder if some stores will measure you >>>>> for size. I would expect you'd need an appointment which is fine, but >>>>> I wouldn't want to pay for a service just to pick out clothes. >>>>> Also what about shoes. Usually if I'm with family, they browse and try >>>>> and pick for me. Is it okay to browse by touching the shoes? Maybe get >>>>> a shoe salesperson to bring me to the right type of shoe and then I >>>>> see what is there? Sighted people just look around and say oh that >>>>> shoe looks good. But I wonder a better, independent way even if its >>>>> with sales staff. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 7:03 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] techniques for shopping and trends >>>>> >>>>> Hi Ashley, >>>>> >>>>> I can't help you very much with techniques for shopping for >>>>> clothes, perfume and jewelry, as most of these questions would be >>>>> better answered by ladies, which I'm not. But I can give you one >>>>> resource for finding out the fassion trends. There's a lady >>>>> named Lynn Cooper who started an initiative called the Mirrors >>>>> Project, to make fassion more accessible to people with >>>>> disabilities. She comes on ACB Reports, which can be heard on >>>>> acbradio.org, twice every season to give her Fassion Report, >>>>> describing >>>>> that season's fassion trends for both men and women. This is a >>>>> good resource to find a detailed description of all the trends >>>>> spesifically tailored for blind people. Lynn's Web site is >>>>> www.lynncooper.us and you can find the 2011 ACB Reports shows on >>>>> www.acb.org. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:47:40 -0400 >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] techniques for shopping and trends >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> What are techniques for clothes shopping? What do you need to >>>>> know when going to shop? Of course, the size and brand you wear >>>>> are important. What else? >>>>> >>>>> I know how to shop for regular items like groceries; you just ask >>>>> a clerk in the store. But clothes are different. You need the >>>>> right thing and often need to try things on. I?셫 sure picking >>>>> out something like jeans, sweat pants, or a casual shirt is >>>>> easier than picking out something more dressy. Personally, I >>>>> grew up using JCPenney and Hects before they were bought. We >>>>> also use Macy?셲 too. >>>>> >>>>> Also, how do you pick perfume out? What about jewelry? We cannot >>>>> see it in the case. >>>>> >>>>> I know some stores have personal shoppers. Do they charge for >>>>> their service? If you used one, how did it go? How long do you >>>>> have with them? Some blind people always shop with family so they >>>>> can get feedback on how they look. I;?셝 rather pick my own >>>>> things and pick out something independent from my mother?셲 >>>>> taste though, sometime. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I?셫 not into fashion much, but its good to be aware of >>>>> trends and the latest stuff so we can pick them if we want. How >>>>> do you find out about that stuff? Are reading magazines such as >>>>> Seventeen a good idea even though we can?셳 see the pictures? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>>>> m%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/debbiewunder%40earthlink.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Lea Williams >> >> Phone; >> 704-732-4470 >> Skipe; >> Lea.williams738 >> Facebook >> http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 14:18:54 2011 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:18:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jewel, You could take this assignment and analyze an ad on TV that is all music with no explanation and take it from the angle of how frustrating that is to someone who cannot see what the ad is and so the commercial is then useless to them. Personally, I cannot stand those! I think they're getting more popular by the hour, unfortunately... I think that's what I would do with the assignment if it were me; it would for sure be an interesting spin on it. Take care. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 9:40 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I wanted to get some ideas from you all. How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the audience, and what format they are in? Thhank you for any input you can provide. ~Jewel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmail.co m From dandrews at visi.com Fri Nov 11 19:52:35 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:52:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Announcing OfficeConvert and EasyEncode - free, open source utilities for common file conversions Message-ID: > >Now available at > >http://EmpowermentZone.com/OfficeConvert.zip > >and > >http://EmpowermentZone.com/EasyEncode.zip > > >OfficeConvert and EasyEncode are two sets of free, open source >utilities under Windows that I have recently developed for >conveniently converting files among common formats and >encodings. They can aid the production of alternative formats in >order to maximize accessibility for readers with >disabilities. Batch processing is possible, allowing multiple files >to be converted with a single command. > >These command-line utilities are stand-alone executables, operating >in console mode, without a graphical user interface (GUI). They are >distributed as zip archives rather than Windows >installers. Programming knowledge is not required to use them, but >basic familiarity with the Windows command prompt is needed. The >utilities may be used either manually at the command line, or >programmatically by applications that call them to prepare files in >a chain of processing steps. > >OfficeConvert is a set of utilities for converting file formats >using the COM-based APIs of Microsoft Office applications, including >Word, Excel, and Powerpoint. Many file formats are >supported. Common file extensions may be used to specify the >formats desired. Conversions include going to and from formats used >by other office suites, such as the Open Document formats supported >by the cross-platform, Open Office suite. > >Significant capabilities include conversions to plain >text: doc2txt, xls2txt, and ppt2txt. The conversion of a >PowerPoint presentation extracts text comprehensively, including the >outline, notes, comments, and hyperlinks. Formats of Office 2007 >and above are supported. The doc2pdf conversion can be an effective >way of creating an accessible, tagged PDF from a well-structured Word document. > >EasyEncode is a set of utilities for detecting and converting text >files among common encodings. Four encodings are supported, >accounting for most encodings in use today: UTF-16, UTF-8 with a >byte order mark (BOM), UTF-8 without a BOM, and ANSI. The utilities >can smoothen the transition of text files from one operating system >to another, where an inconsistent encoding can render a file unreadable. > >Character encodings are a complex subject. EasyEncode does not >eliminate a developer's need for knowledge in this area, but once >encodings are understood conceptually, the software eases work with them. > >The OfficeConvert documentation is also separately available online at > >http://EmpowermentZone.com/OfficeConvert.htm > >and the EasyEncode documentation is available at > >http://EmpowermentZone.com/EasyEncode.htm > > >Jamal > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 20:56:49 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:56:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and judgment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jedi, Since you started... This segways nicely into a discussion I've long wanted to open up. First, everyone, blind, sighted, everyone, needs to recognize that people need help sometimes. There's nothing wrong with asking for help, but we also have to understand that blindness doesn't mean we need more help than anyone else. I've always been very independent, and when I lost my sight, it really irritated me that so many people thought I required so much help. When I was diagnosed with tachycardia and severe low blood pressure, it was difficult that there were times I literally couldn't do much physically. I've always been very active, and before my medications were regulated, I had a lot of difficulty just walking because I felt so weak. Requiring assistance to move around had nothing to do with my blindness, but I needed assistance because of my health. I still have episodes where I feel weak enough to the point where I may need an arm to lean on, but personally, I don't take sighted guide because of my blindness. And on a side note, when I do need such assistance, I don't care if the person is sighted or blind, as long as I have the support necessary is all I care about. I guess I shouldn't so much refer to it as sighted guide but simply a guide or support. Seeing as I'm predominantly with my hubby, and he is blind, he is usually the one who helps me out during these episodes, which goes to show I can't call it sighted guide. Smile. Now, I agree with you to an extent because I see so many blind people complain about society and how we're not treated as equals or like we can be independent. All this is said while I observe said people taking sighted assistance more than is necessary. I try to not judge people I don't know because I have no clue what a persons life is like. Such as myself, who when having my weak blood pressure episodes could be judged as a blind person always taking assistance, but if you knew me, you'd know that my reasoning for a guide of any kind is because of health related concerns. But I know plenty of people who have no reason to use sighted assistance for every little thing. It's tough to argue our independence and capabilities when we rarely choose to truly be independent. It makes my life difficult when I have to deal with people who have encountered blind people who not only constantly ask for sighted help, but expect it. It's really annoying to have to explain and demand independence from people who are only responding based on past experience with other blind people. As I keep saying, we can teach sighted people to treat us as equals and accept our abilities, but if blind people don't believe this, it negates the work done with our sighted peers. There was a security guard on my campus who every freaking time she saw me, she asked if I needed help, and in the beginning would do the arm grab. I found out that another blind student on campus frequently requested sighted guides to get from class to class, which ended up being the job designated to the security office. I discovered who said person was, and I knew them quite well, and they had no true reason requesting sighted guide as they could have learned to get around campus on their own, but they summarily refused to even consider the idea. Eventually the security guard realized I didn't require this kind of help and they just greeted me like they did anyone else when running into me, but based on prior experience, it was assumed I needed similar help. This is just as much a blind persons fault as it is a sighted persons. Trust me, it can be scary doing things independently for anyone, but when we choose to overcome fears and anxieties, we grow familiar with negotiating situations on our own. Eventually we become accustomed to navigating the world nonvisually, and people, not everyone, but many, observe our independence and will recognize we don't require help all the time. However, to make snap judgments and generalizations does nothing to help us either. I'd also like to point out to those who believe in the all or nothing method of travel that years ago Dr. Jernigan addressed some students as to why he chose to use sighted guide in certain situations. His response can be found on the NFB website. While we should act as independently as we can, there are times when we should feel no shame in requesting assistance. It's about efficiency. This is why NFB presidents use sighted guides during convention so they can efficiently navigate from place to place especially among so many other people careening about. It's not used all the time, or most of the time, but it's available if needed. That all being said, most of us can operate quite fine on our own. I don't have the time to wait for a sighted person to help me get stuff done, nor do I have a sighted person in my life who wants to be at my beck and call. Independent travel is something that I expect in blind people, and until we all understand this, we don't have much of a chance to ever be viewed as equals in society. Those who know me well, both sighted and blind, know I don't like having to ask for help for any reason. Sometimes we have no choice in the matter such as when a health issue is involved, but I don't appreciate judgmental attitudes from the blind or sighted world, which by the way is the same world. I live with my blind husband, and we live on our own. We take the bus to work, school, the market, doctor visits, etc., we go out to movies and theatre and restaurants, and we don't have sighted people there to assist whenever we feel the whim. And when out with sighted people, we still do things for ourselves such as go to the bathroom, walk, order food, whatever. I think the more we do things independently, the more we show people how capable we are. And when I said classmates let me lead the way in asking for help, I simply meant that they stopped asking all the time if I needed help. If I did, I'd ask, and they understood this. I presented myself with confidence and did what was expected of other classmates. I didn't expect, or ask for, special treatment unless necessary such as taking exams accessibly. I negotiated campus with no help, and in fact, usually knew my way around better than a lot of sighted classmates. Funny story, while in conversation with fellow classmates, I made a comment about the Weber Fine Arts building, to which one of my classmates responded by saying, "I don't know what building that is," and to which I replied, "It's the building you are sitting in currently." giggle. I figured school out just like everyone else has too, and I didn't believe myself less capable or less efficient than anyone else. To be treated as equals, we have to act and think like we are equal. We should be expected to do what anyone else is expected to do. I don't really know why we think we are expected to go beyond those expectations, within reason of course. I mean, should I start serving myself at sit-down restaurants because technically a sighted person is doing it for me. Should I walk everywhere in a city with more than one million people, because a driver on a bus is sighted after all. I mean, where is the line drawn for some of us? Apparently our independence is compromised because we ask for help no matter the situation. We certainly need to be aware of our independence and how we present ourselves in public especially if we claim to want equality, but we also have to live our lives and not to always be making points but for ourselves. A part of being equals and accepted as such, is to understand that we can, and will, ask for help at times and there's nothing wrong with this. It can be a fine balance, but we can't live our life thinking we can never, ever ask for help, sighted or otherwise, and if we take help, we've compromised our independence and the independence of blind people everywhere. I can't do a lot physically on the few occasions I suffer a low blood pressure, so I may take an arm if available. Since some may view this as equating to all blind people must need sighted help, it would be better for me to suffer and struggle around due to weakness and fatigue? It's ludacris. Or if we are in a situation where sighted assistance may make for a smoother transaction, we should be viewed as inefficient just as long as we're viewed as doing it alone? What's the better image? I'm 30 and no longer have the F-ing time to constantly have to prove a point, to sighted people or blind people alike. Judging and assuming come in different forms, let's not forget this. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 2 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:44:05 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help Message-ID: b77ac139-7925-43a6-9b75-e6551c43e223 at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Bridgit, I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, walking alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think those blindness attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with you that our actions mean a lot; we can't claim that we want to be independent travelers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. I'm sorry to say that this is one of the few situations in which we can't have our cake and eat it, too. Respectfully, Jedi From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 21:34:49 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:34:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, I like thinking outside the box, smile! What you say is very true. And one point I have failed to state is that even when using sighted guide, or a guide of any kind, always, always keep your cane. And just because a person touches, in some way, someones body, it doesn't mean they are being led around, or are dependent. For the longest time, my husband and I wouldn't hold hands when public because we didn't want anyone thinking one was leading the other around, but eventually we grew tired of this. We're in love and we like to hold hands. Others will think what they want; we know the truth. And if people can't deal with this, screw them. It's not like we're maneuvering the other into bathroom stalls, or chairs, or inching them along. It's ridiculous how caught up on this stuff we can become as blind people. We put certain definitions on things like sighted guide, but when you think about it, we could just as easily place those definitions on other things. Since when did independence mean doing something literally alone? True, a basic definition means acting on your own, but independence is also about being efficient and being the best possible person in order to live your life based on your terms. To assume touching, or holding, a persons arm or hand automatically equates to dependence is a ridiculous idea. We need to give people room to grow and explore. We all come to certain crossroads in our own time, and making snap judgments and placing strict definitions, doesn't lead to an environment cultivating growth. None of us have "made it," and if you think you have, you are sadly mistaken and have a huge growth of your own to make. Getting caught up on analyzing every encounter, every action is just as stupid as not releasing your feelings in a given situation. Who cares how every little thing I do is perceived? I don't have time to care. If I decide to hold the back of a friends arm while we walk and talk, I can't be concerned if you, or others, think I'm being dependent. If I let my husband refill my drink at a restaurant, why do I have to worry about how this is perceived? I have nothing to prove to the world beyond living my life the best way I see fit. Thank you, Mark, for stepping outside the box and giving us something to think about rather than some rigidly defined standard in which to measure up to our own lives. Thinking is what cultivates true change, not blanket standards set by those who can't open their minds to other things. It's about separating truth from perception. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:26:57 -0700 From: Marc Workman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help Message-ID: <1309521D-304E-4145-BA30-217D5F4F266E at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jedi wrote, > we can't claim that we want to be independent travellers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. I take this to mean that, if you are unable to travel anywhere without sighted guide, you cannot call yourself an independent traveller. This seems right and uncontroversial. But I think others, and I'm not referring to the statement above, have made statements, which I'm too lazy right now to find and cite directly, that suggest it is better, in general, not to go sighted guide even when it is available. There are times when it's appropriate no doubt, but as a rule, independence requires foregoing sighted guide even when you are walking with a sighted person. Perhaps there are more nuanced positions, and I'd be interested in hearing those, but this is a sentiment I believe I've picked up on. The thing that puzzles me is that it seems to be acceptable to "depend" on the person with whom you are walking in certain ways (for example, it's okay to listen to footsteps, or the persons voice, or follow directions like left or right), but it's not acceptable to "depend" on the person if it involves putting two fingers on the back of someone's elbow. Why is one form of dependence acceptable while the other is not? Now, this could be a difference in the definition of sighted guide. When I go sighted guide, I continue to rely on my cane to find curbs, stairs, poles, etc. I've always thought it strange to put the cane away during sighted guide, not because I care about dependence or independence, but because I would feel unsafe. I suppose if you put away the cane and relied exclusively on the sighted person, this would constitute a difference between sighted guide and listening to footsteps, but as I said, this isn't my version of sighted guide. For me, a light touch on the elbow is just a more convenient way of tracking the person with whom I'm talking than is listening to footsteps or voice. I do the same thing with my girlfriend who is also blind. I go sighted guide nearly all of the time when I'm walking and talking with another person even if that person is not sighted. Obviously, if I'm travelling alone, there is no sighted guide, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that. I don't think this is a matter of dependence or independence since, whether I depend on footsteps/voice/directions or a light touch on the elbow, I'm equally dependent. To me, this is a matter of convenience. I could go from my apartment to my office, which involves a bus ride, an LRT ride, and a walk across campus, without my cane. I've walked it enough times that I'm sure I could do it, but it would be far less convenient to do it this way. Yet no one would suggest that I'm dependent on my cane, or at least no one would suggest that I ought to try to be less dependent on my cane. Similarly, when I'm having a conversation or receiving assistance from another person, I could listen to footsteps/voice/directions, but I find this far less convenient than lightly touching an elbow. I recognize that some people may see this and believe that I could not do it on my own, but they would be mistaken. I also know that those same people might assume that all blind people are like me and would not be able to do it on their own either and that these beliefs might affect, probably negatively, their interactions with other blind people. Again, however, this would be their mistake, their prejudice, and their discrimination. And while I regret that situation, I won't let people's ignorance and stupidity dictate my behaviour. Cheers, Marc From dandrews at visi.com Fri Nov 11 21:39:33 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:39:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Serotek Conquers a New Frontier for Blind Veterans Message-ID: > >Please do not reply to this message. If you don't wish to receive >any more Serotek announcements, activate the link at the end of this message. > > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > > > > > >Serotek conquers a new frontier for blind veterans > > > > > > > > >Media Contact: pr at sertec > > > > > >(612) 246-4818. Ext. 104 > > > >Technical Contact: inf at serote.c > > > > > >Minneapolis, Minnesota - November 11, 2011 - More than 13% of >veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan have suffered severe >eye injuries that result in blindness. In recognition of this year's >Veteran's Day celebration, Serotek Corporation is offering all blind >veterans a lifetime subscription to its popular System Access Mobile >Network (SAMNet). > >SAMNet is Serotek's renowned Internet communication portal that >delivers the most complete content ever assembled for the blind. >With email, news, blogs, podcasts, streaming radio, described video >service for thousands of movies and more, veterans will have access >to a new world of communications right at their fingertips. > >"For many veterans sight loss is the new battleground," says >Serotek's Chief Executive Officer, Mike Calvo. ""We want to do our >part to help them face the challenges ahead with the same tools and >confidence they showed in service to our country." > >To that end, Serotek is offering lifetime access to SAMNet for all >legally blind U.S. veterans. Individuals who can provide proof of >status as a legally blind veteran will be eligible for the program, >which will officially kick off on December 15. In addition to the >wide array of content already available on SAMNet, Serotek will >further customize the service by creating chat rooms, forums and >other exclusive communication channels to help facilitate networking >opportunities among veterans. > >To stay on top of this latest initiative, please >subscribe >to the SAMNet-vets mailing list, where you can learn more about >SAMNet and the program specifically designed for this segment of the >country's wounded warriors. You can also >get an overview of SAMNet and >other Serotek products, and you can begin a 7-day free trial of >these products and services by visiting >http://www.satogo.com. Serotek looks forward >to welcoming veterans to the SAMNet community, and the company is >proud to offer this simple, intuitive means of connecting with >family, friends and the world. > > > >About Serotek > > > > > >Serotek Corp. is dedicated to accessibility anywhere for blind and >visually impaired people around the globe. Based in Minneapolis, >Minnesota, the company is led by a growing staff of blind >visionaries dedicated to expanding an accessible digital lifestyle >through innovative, affordable and easy-to-use products. To learn >more about the company's growing range of products and services, >visit http://www.serotek.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 23:10:27 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:10:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An update: This is what my professor and I came up with as an equal asignment. The other students are going to analyze a TV commercial or magazine ad for content, audience, and the like. I will, on the other hand, analyze a radio advertisement. It was the closet thing to exactly equal that we could come, and I'm quite satisfied with it. She said to hold onto the thought of inaccessibility of advertisement for the next course (which I will have with the same professor), Argument-Based Research. I think I'm going to write an essay for that class arguing for DVS in television shows and commercials, such as is done on some channels in the UK and other countries. Thanks for the input, guys. It gave me a lot to think about. ~Jewel On 11/11/11, Liz Bottner wrote: > Hi Jewel, > You could take this assignment and analyze an ad on TV that is all music > with no explanation and take it from the angle of how frustrating that is to > someone who cannot see what the ad is and so the commercial is then useless > to them. Personally, I cannot stand those! I think they're getting more > popular by the hour, unfortunately... I think that's what I would do with > the assignment if it were me; it would for sure be an interesting spin on > it. > > Take care. > > Liz Bottner > Guiding Eyes Graduate Council > GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 > e-mail: > liziswhatis at hotmail.com > Visit my LiveJournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Jewel > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 9:40 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? > > Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion > that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The > assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on > television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I > wanted to get some ideas from you all. > > How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their > audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an > example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how > did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you > give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the > audience, and what format they are in? > > Thhank you for any input you can provide. > > ~Jewel > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From brlsurfer at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 01:03:25 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:03:25 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? Message-ID: <4ebdc5f1.5c1ce70a.4f19.6a66@mx.google.com> Good for you Jewel. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Jewel wrote: Hi Jewel, You could take this assignment and analyze an ad on TV that is all music with no explanation and take it from the angle of how frustrating that is to someone who cannot see what the ad is and so the commercial is then useless to them. Personally, I cannot stand those! I think they're getting more popular by the hour, unfortunately... I think that's what I would do with the assignment if it were me; it would for sure be an interesting spin on it. Take care. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 9:40 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I wanted to get some ideas from you all. How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the audience, and what format they are in? Thhank you for any input you can provide. ~Jewel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%4 0hotmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g mail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 02:28:01 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:28:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minority groups Message-ID: <4ebdd9d2.09b9340a.364b.ffffbae7@mx.google.com> Good one, Bridgit! Well, we kind of do, in the form of the Federation. Lord knows people think we're militant all the time. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter This is a FYI for all iDevice users... some of these apps sound really cool, thought you might want to check them out. By the way, they are mostly if not fully accessible with VoiceOver and most if not all buttons are tagged. There is information about the accessibility of each app and accessibility comments after each app's description. With all that said, here's all the information: ---- Original Message ------ From: "Kay Malmquist" To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/talkshopchatters/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/talkshopchatters/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: talkshopchatters-digest at yahoogroups.com talkshopchatters-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: talkshopchatters-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From amylsabo at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 03:39:47 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:39:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Attention ToAll Book Lovers: Your Chance To Speak Live With An N L S Narrator Takes Place Today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000101cca0ec$bb29da30$317d8e90$@comcast.net> Dear david, Again, I express my sincere apologies for missing this presentation today. I'm at the nfb of Colorado state convention here in Denver. But, thanks anyway and, I will talk with you this week! Hugs, >From amy sabo -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Dunphy Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 1:45 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Attention ToAll Book Lovers: Your Chance To Speak Live With An N L S Narrator Takes Place Today If You Are An Avid Reader Of NLS Books, Or If You Know Someone Who Is, Then The Following Announcement Applies To You or them!!! Please Spread The Word About The Following: Hi Everyone! Make yourself a nice meal, pull up a chair, and crank up the online radio station that stretches the boundaries of sound entertainment, Audio Access FM! Today, Saturday November 5 2011 at 1 PM eastern, Jonathan Matte returns with Episode 2 of his Entertainment Vault. On his debut show, he interviewed Lou Gutierez of Benefit Media Inc, a company that is responsible for reading and producing books for NLS, the service that blind people and others use for reading books both on tape and on Bard digitally. If you'd like to hear that first interview, visit http://www.audioaccessfm.com/archives/entertainmentvault Although the interview was pre recorded, we were very encouraged by the positive feedback we received, so today, we're raising the bar....It's time to meet some of the NLS narrators you've come to know and love...And we're going to speak with them live!!! At 1 PM eastern today, Jonathan will be speaking live with a man who has read many an NLS book, J P Linton. Learn about JP's life, his experiences as a narrator, and yes, you will have the opportunity to call in at the end and ask him questions too! This live presentation will be available for download by the end of the weekend for those who can't make it. If you'd be interested in having this presentation aired again in addition to us making it available for download, email me at djd at audioaccessfm.com and tell me when you'd want to have us play it again. Otherwise, it'll just go in to the entertainmentvault archives after it has aired. If you'd like to call in and ask questions during the presentation, you can add audio.accessfm to your skype, or call us at 516-324-2314 when we've opened the lines and given you the OK to call in, use the above number or skype info to join in. And to listen to today's live interview with JP Linton, which will air at 1 PM eastern today (noon central, 11 AM mountain and 10 AM pacific) visit http://www.audioaccessfm.com/listen_live.php We are very lucky and excited that JP is willing to give us a few minutes of his precious time, and for that we thank him. We hope you'll join us for what should be an incredible audio adventure that you won't find on Bard or in the NLS catalogue, but only on Audio Access FM live today at 1 PM eastern! See you there! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From amylsabo at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 03:39:47 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:39:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000401cca0ec$bc62f670$3528e350$@comcast.net> Dear david, Thanks for letting me know of this.. unfortunately, I'm not home this weekend I'm at the nfb of Colorado state convention and, I won't be able to listen to all of this until next week because when I get home on Sunday afternoon I'm going to st. mattress! Lol! Anyway, this all sounds wonderful indeed. I plan to forward this onto the student division lists for both Michigan and Colorado too! I wish that I would've known of this earlier since I was just at the cabs seminar for a little while to make this announcement... oh well! This all sounds wonderful and, I will definitely will catch it out on my own and, let you know of my comments and all as usual my dear! Thanks again for this announcement and, I will talk to you this week! Hugs, >From amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Dunphy Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 1:42 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Greetings Everyone! After many anxious requests for it, After many have been asking for it, I am happy to announce that... Tonight by 9 PM eastern, the new and upgraded nabslinkaudio.org web site will be up! What does this mean? It means that all the nabs membership calls that I've been able to record from the time the nabslinkaudio.org project launched to now will be available. But that's not all! Here are some of the new/improved features you can expect from the site. This year's meeting from national convention will be available for download. The final few parts of the elections got cut out sadly, but the ones for president, vice president and secretary get revealed. If anyone has any past national convention meetings they are willing to share, put them on sendspace or dropbox and email the link/links to djdrocks4ever at gmail.com so they too can be added. *Closer tighter integration with nabslink.org, meaning you'll beable to use the same navigation bar on the nabslink site over on the nabslink audio site too. This will make it easier for you to go from our audio pages to the student slate section if you want, etc. Steps will be taken to try to combine or integrate these sites a little more so they can perhaps become one resource for students A friendly greeting awaits your ears when you launch the new nabslinkaudio site, but it only plays one time and one time only unless you delete all your internet cookies everyday. This will not interfere with the use of your screen reader when the site is launched for the first time. I'd like to put some more informational audio up on the site. Like talk to people who hold various jobs who are part of the NFB in an effort to find out about the jobs, what their college experience was like while moving towards the goal of obtaining said job, what accessibility challenges came up and how they dealt with them, etc. I'm hoping I can integrate these things into the nabslinkaudio.org page as an educational resource for blind students. The ability to receive text notifications by cell phone when a new conference call is in the archives plus when one is about to air live is now fully integrated into the nabslink audio podcast page. Anyone wishing to use this feature, including those who previously took advantage of it on the old system will have to go through our automated registration and validation process. This will ensure you and the nabs membership committee that only the phone owner is using this feature and that phone numbers aren't being distributed everywhere. For anyone who fills out the contact form to leave me feedback I'll see it and be able to respond faster now since the form also sends me a text message.. The web address http://www.nabslinkaudio.org won't change. the site will be up by 9 PM eastern. As soon as it goes up, a tweet and an email will be sent out to this list, so feel free to spread the word once that happens and to leave your comments/feedback. If you need to get in touch, email djdrocks4ever at gmail.com >From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From amylsabo at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 04:36:29 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:36:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbmi-talk] FW: article about Cary Supalo In-Reply-To: <000001cc9f74$72a15460$57e3fd20$@att.net> References: <656811cf3a05356f0c8f931c7ac56371@mail.gmail.com> <-2433920255142451470@unknownmsgid> <000001cc9f74$72a15460$57e3fd20$@att.net> Message-ID: <011101cca0f4$a5bdde50$f1399af0$@comcast.net> Hello all, Here is a very interesting article that I got from the nfb of mi list this week. Please read on for more information.... -----Original Message----- From: nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbmi-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Fred Wurtzel Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 11:46 PM To: 'NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List'; Michigan Comm for the Blind Vision 20/20 List; Boonec at michigan.gov; kboone2920 at comcast.net Cc: 'Shawn Mayo'; 'George Wurtzel' Subject: [nfbmi-talk] FW: article about Cary Supalo Hello, Cary Supalo is a Blind Ph.D. chemist from Penn State. His company loaned the NFB Science Camp at Camp T some of these units for our campers to alpha test. We have had them there for 2 summers, now. Hopefully, next summer we can get Cary to join us. Notice, by the way, that Cary was a student at BLIND, Inc. Speaks for itself, doesn’t it? C’mon Michigan, let’s get some more Google guys from here and the next ones will be blind. Did anyone meet Alex, the fellow from Apple computers who was at our convention this past weekend? Another example of a blind guy in Technology. Warmest Regards, Fred From: George Wurtzel [mailto:gwurtzel at blindinc.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:49 PM To: Fred Wurtzel Subject: Fwd: article about Cary Supalo hi Fred did U see this? U generally are way ahead of me seeing this kind of stuff. have a great day. Cordially, George M. Würtzel Begin forwarded message: From: Shawn Mayo < Hello,> Date: November 9, 2011 2:38:41 PM CST To: Allstaff Subject: FW: article about Cary Supalo Carey is one of our graduates... November 8, 2011 News Release West Lafayette, Ind. - A Purdue Research Park-based company has received a $500,000 SBIR Phase II award from the National Science Foundation (NSF) to develop technology that enhances hands-on science learning for students affected by blindness and low vision. Independence Science LLC will use the award to further develop Talking LabQuest, the first portable scientific data collection device equipped with text-to-speech technology to help students in science laboratory classrooms. The company is developing Talking LabQuest in partnership with Vernier Software & Technology LLC of Beaverton, Ore.; HumanWare Inc. of Drummondville, Quebec, Canada; and ViewPlus Technologies Inc. of Corvallis, Ore. Cary Supalo, president and founder of Independence Science, said the NSF award will allow his company to work with HumanWare and ViewPlus engineers to create peripherals from their access technology products, including BrailleNote, Tiger Braille embossers, the IVEO Learning System and the Audio Graphing Calculator. "HumanWare's BrailleNote is the most popular electronic note-taking device in the blind community. Students use it to take notes in class, check email, search the Internet and perform GPS navigation. We would like to use it as a data collection device when interfaced with Talking LabQuest," Supalo said. "We hope to use ViewPlus' Tiger Braille embossers to make raised-line drawings of graph data and to interface the IVEO Learning System to provide touchscreen navigation. ViewPlus' Audio Graphing Calculator allows a student to type algebraic equations on a computer keyboard. These tools will enhance the usefulness of the Talking LabQuest to the end user." Supalo said Talking LabQuest can empower students who are underrepresented in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM). He said research indicates that students who receive positive hands-on experiences have greater interest in science learning, which increases academic achievement. "This also is true for underrepresented populations, including students with visual impairments," Supalo said. "The Talking LabQuest can empower students in the laboratory, classroom and in the field. They can collect acceleration and velocity data at an amusement park alongside their classmates. They can track temperature of foods and pH levels in swimming pools or fish tanks. This device is empowering both teachers and their students with blindness and low vision in having more hands-on science learning experiences." About Independence Science LLC Officials at Independence Science are making their expertise available to help school districts, colleges and universities, and state rehabilitation agencies across the country meet Americans with Disabilities Act requirements in the science curriculum. These technologies are being made available to further serve as a dissemination tool to benefit any blind and low-vision student in the United States. About Purdue Research Park The Purdue Research Park has the largest university-affiliated business incubation complex in the country in four locations across Indiana. The park network is home to about 200 companies that employ 4,000 people and are located in West Lafayette, Merrillville, Indianapolis and New Albany. Source: Purdue Research Park _______________________________________________ nfbmi-talk mailing list nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbmi-talk: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbmi-talk_nfbnet.org/amylsabo% 40comcast.net From amylsabo at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 04:43:15 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:43:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Colorado Seeks a Chapter/Community DevelopmentStaff Person In-Reply-To: <8B3AA623469946A2A979AFF77A09C69A@labarre> References: <8B3AA623469946A2A979AFF77A09C69A@labarre> Message-ID: <011301cca0f5$97f0bcb0$c7d23610$@comcast.net> Hello scott, Thanks for posting this to the nabs list. I know that I have contacted you about this on the phone by leaving you a message on your voice mail at your law office but, I will be sending to you this week my resume along with a cover letter requesting the required information that you have requested. Thanks again and, last weekend was a awesome state convention indeed and, I will send this information to you this week! Sincerely, Amy sabo -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott C. LaBarre Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:08 PM To: NFB Affiliate Presidents List; NFB Chapter Presidents discussion list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of Colorado Discussion List Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Colorado Seeks a Chapter/Community DevelopmentStaff Person Greetings: The National Federation of the Blind of Colorado intends to engage in substantial growth over the next few years. We wish to hire an individual to serve in the role of Chapter and Community Development Coordinator. The main objective of this position is to spread the message and philosophy of the Federation to all parts of our state and help us support and grow existing chapters as well as help us establish new ones. The staff person will also help in general outreach matters to the broader public and thereby help raise the profile of the Federation. The first requirement of this position is to have an individual who is well versed in the philosophy and history of the Federation and someone who has demonstrated leadership and capacity to build the movement. The person must possess excellent organizational skills and have the ability to self-motivate and stay on task. The person must be available to travel throughout the state of Colorado and attend other national events as assigned. A college degree or higher level of education is preferred but necessarily mandatory. The person must be able to communicate well through effective command of the written and spoken word including a high level of computer literacy. Salary is dependent upon experience and qualifications and other benefits will be made available. If you are interested in this position, please contact the President, Scott LaBarre, via email at slabarre at labarrelaw.com and include your resume and a cover letter explaining why you believe you are a candidate for this position. The deadline for application is Thursday, November 17, 2011. We plan to interview potential candidates in early December and make a decision prior to the end of the year. Our goal is to have the new staff person begin their duties in January of 2012. Thanks, Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. President, NFB Colorado LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From amylsabo at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 04:49:19 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:49:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio In-Reply-To: References: <4ebc2ceb.c1952a0a.1f09.ffff9f05SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com><70A525E6E37C473E959B6E89A70E0975@cadiganpc> <7.0.1.0.2.20111110131812.01dd7ff8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <011401cca0f6$70f19020$52d4b060$@comcast.net> Hello Elizabeth, First of all what format is this audio recording done in? is it done in mp3 format or in wave format? After that there is a program for formatting audio recordings called gold wave or you can also use a program called cool edit. I have never used gold wave but, I have used cool edit for editing my audio recordings. To obtain both of these programs to download and use for both gold wave I believe... You can go to www.goldwwave.com to download the software and use it. This is accessible with jfw. As for cool edit I don't have the web site for that but, if you google cool edit you can find it! Anyway, I hope these and other information that I have given you is helpful. Take care and good luck in your audio production work. Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Hello All, I have a rather confidential recording that is approximately three hours in length that I would like to have transcribed. Does anyone have any recommendations about how I might be able to go about getting this recording transcribed? This recording is not a class lecture. I would welcome any ideas regardless if it involves a human transcriber or transcribing technology. If you have any ideas, please contact me off list. Thanks, Elizabeth _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 05:17:48 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:17:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio In-Reply-To: <011401cca0f6$70f19020$52d4b060$@comcast.net> References: <4ebc2ceb.c1952a0a.1f09.ffff9f05SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com><70A525E6E37C473E959B6E89A70E0975@cadiganpc> <7.0.1.0.2.20111110131812.01dd7ff8@earthlink.net> <011401cca0f6$70f19020$52d4b060$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3C66609833AF4598AA3D4008A79CEDD1@OwnerPC> Amy, She wants it transcribed, meaning put into words, not edited. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Amy Sabo Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:49 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Hello Elizabeth, First of all what format is this audio recording done in? is it done in mp3 format or in wave format? After that there is a program for formatting audio recordings called gold wave or you can also use a program called cool edit. I have never used gold wave but, I have used cool edit for editing my audio recordings. To obtain both of these programs to download and use for both gold wave I believe... You can go to www.goldwwave.com to download the software and use it. This is accessible with jfw. As for cool edit I don't have the web site for that but, if you google cool edit you can find it! Anyway, I hope these and other information that I have given you is helpful. Take care and good luck in your audio production work. Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Hello All, I have a rather confidential recording that is approximately three hours in length that I would like to have transcribed. Does anyone have any recommendations about how I might be able to go about getting this recording transcribed? This recording is not a class lecture. I would welcome any ideas regardless if it involves a human transcriber or transcribing technology. If you have any ideas, please contact me off list. Thanks, Elizabeth _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 05:51:29 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:51:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making PP file. Message-ID: Hey I have to make a Power Point prodject for computers and never done it before. I tried to look at it but could not figure out how to do it all. Could some one explain? Thanks. -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From carlymih at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 13:45:29 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 05:45:29 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: <5B2D32252DF94D9AAF38B4AC6AC9DC43@OwnerPC> References: <4ebc29cf.08892a0a.74fa.210eSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <1309521D-304E-4145-BA30-217D5F4F266E@gmail.com> <5B2D32252DF94D9AAF38B4AC6AC9DC43@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111112054044.01cbdd40@earthlink.net> Good morning, Ashley, To me, the term "sighted guide" ought not necessarily be reflective of whether a person can ocularly, see, but a description of someone fulfilling a role as a guide. For this reason I completely reject that term, for my own use. Things don't need to be defined into oblivion. At 03:40 PM 11/10/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >Mark, >I agree with you. I go sighted guide a lot when walking and talking >with another person. Its easier to keep in contact with them and >faster. Also, if I I use my cane, it might trip them. If you follow >them, where does the person stand so your cane isn't in the way? If >they're ahead of you, they cannot see your cane arc. Do they walk >behind and give directions? > >We cannot say we're independent and get a sighted guide everywhere >we go. Yet, in >some circumstances, I think sighted guide is appropriate. It just depends. >IMO, independence means we're in control of where we go and what >we're doing. So going out for dinner and grabbing an elbowof a >companion seems reasonable. You made a decision where to go and how >to get there and likely you'll use one group member as a reader of >your bill and the menu. > >I guess we balance when to use a guide. Mark, yes you can hang on to >a blind person. That is why they call it human guide now, not sighted guide. >O&M instructors changed the term recognizing that blind people can >and do guide each other. > >Ashley >-----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman >Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:26 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help > >Jedi wrote, >>we can't claim that we want to be independent travellers and ask >>for a sighted guide everywhere we go. > >I take this to mean that, if you are unable to travel anywhere >without sighted guide, you cannot call yourself an independent >traveller. This seems right and uncontroversial. But I think >others, and I'm not referring to the statement above, have made >statements, which I'm too lazy right now to find and cite directly, >that suggest it is better, in general, not to go sighted guide even >when it is available. There are times when it's appropriate no >doubt, but as a rule, independence requires foregoing sighted guide >even when you are walking with a sighted person. Perhaps there are >more nuanced positions, and I'd be interested in hearing those, but >this is a sentiment I believe I've picked up on. > >The thing that puzzles me is that it seems to be acceptable to >"depend" on the person with whom you are walking in certain ways >(for example, it's okay to listen to footsteps, or the persons >voice, or follow directions like left or right), but it's not >acceptable to "depend" on the person if it involves putting two >fingers on the back of someone's elbow. Why is one form of >dependence acceptable while the other is not? > >Now, this could be a difference in the definition of sighted >guide. When I go sighted guide, I continue to rely on my cane to >find curbs, stairs, poles, etc. I've always thought it strange to >put the cane away during sighted guide, not because I care about >dependence or independence, but because I would feel unsafe. I >suppose if you put away the cane and relied exclusively on the >sighted person, this would constitute a difference between sighted >guide and listening to footsteps, but as I said, this isn't my >version of sighted guide. For me, a light touch on the elbow is >just a more convenient way of tracking the person with whom I'm >talking than is listening to footsteps or voice. I do the same >thing with my girlfriend who is also blind. > >I go sighted guide nearly all of the time when I'm walking and >talking with another person even if that person is not >sighted. Obviously, if I'm travelling alone, there is no sighted >guide, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that. I don't think this >is a matter of dependence or independence since, whether I depend on >footsteps/voice/directions or a light touch on the elbow, I'm >equally dependent. To me, this is a matter of convenience. I could >go from my apartment to my office, which involves a bus ride, an LRT >ride, and a walk across campus, without my cane. I've walked it >enough times that I'm sure I could do it, but it would be far less >convenient to do it this way. Yet no one would suggest that I'm >dependent on my cane, or at least no one would suggest that I ought >to try to be less dependent on my cane. Similarly, when I'm having >a conversation or receiving assistance from another person, I could >listen to footsteps/voice/directions, but I find this far less >convenient than lightly touching an elbow. > >I recognize that some people may see this and believe that I could >not do it on my own, but they would be mistaken. I also know that >those same people might assume that all blind people are like me and >would not be able to do it on their own either and that these >beliefs might affect, probably negatively, their interactions with >other blind people. Again, however, this would be their mistake, >their prejudice, and their discrimination. And while I regret that >situation, I won't let people's ignorance and stupidity dictate my behaviour. > >Cheers, > >Marc >On 2011-11-10, at 12:44 PM, Jedi wrote: > >>Bridgit, >> >>I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, >>walking alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think >>those blindness attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with >>you that our actions mean a lot; we can't claim that we want to be >>independent travelers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. >>I'm sorry to say that this is one of the few situations in which we >>can't have our cake and eat it, too. >> >>Respectfully, >>Jedi >> >>Original message: >>>I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >>>blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >>>cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person >>>sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not >>>dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is >>>probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little >>>difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with >>>no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their >>>help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. >> >>>In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I >>>don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as >>>possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood >>>pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days >>>like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance >>>than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on >>>these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as >>>it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates >>>became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help, >>>and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When >>>classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if >>>I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >>>They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >>>relationships. >> >>>The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >>>actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible >>>in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as >>>people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take >>>note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our >>>independence and capabilities. >> >>>Sincerely, >>>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>>Read my blog at: >>>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >>>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >>>Message: 21 >>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >>>From: Patrick Molloy >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >>>Message-ID: >> >>> >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>>I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >>>often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >>>they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >>>to be desired (if desired at all.) >>>Patrick >> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>for nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >>-- >>Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 15:05:04 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:05:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making PP file. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lea, PowerPoint can be tricky if you're using JAWS. There's a command, something like control-shift-tab, that will put your PowerPoint into an outline form which you can then copy and paste into a word document. Patrick On 11/12/11, Lea williams wrote: > Hey I have to make a Power Point prodject for computers and never done > it before. I tried to look at it but could not figure out how to do it > all. Could some one explain? Thanks. > > -- > Lea Williams > > Phone; > 704-732-4470 > Skipe; > Lea.williams738 > Facebook > http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From alexandera.castillo at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 15:36:01 2011 From: alexandera.castillo at gmail.com (Alexander Castillo) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:36:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making PP file. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lee, what exactly do you have to do for your power point project? be a bit more specific. Also, which version of power point are you using? You can generally hit the F6 key to go through the different views. Within these views you can tab your way around and if you are using JAWS, you will get some output as to what the is on the screen and what you can use it for. For example, you might hear with the word "title"that might let you know that a title is placed in that area. . You can copy and paste pictures and text into your presentation. If you are using Office 2010 or 2007, you will be using what is called the ribbon, which is basically a replacement for your options menu at the top of the screen. To use the ribbon, press alt. You can move let and right in the same way you would move through an options menu. However, in order to move down the ribbon, you will use the Tab key, and then you can choose your selection by pressing the space bar or on some menus, by pressing the Enter key. I would Google a basic tutorial. Just remember the only thing you need to do instead of clicking with the mouse, is pressing the F6 and Tab keys to move through Power Point. Thanks for reading, Alex On 11/12/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Lea, > PowerPoint can be tricky if you're using JAWS. There's a command, > something like control-shift-tab, that will put your PowerPoint into > an outline form which you can then copy and paste into a word > document. > Patrick > > On 11/12/11, Lea williams wrote: >> Hey I have to make a Power Point prodject for computers and never done >> it before. I tried to look at it but could not figure out how to do it >> all. Could some one explain? Thanks. >> >> -- >> Lea Williams >> >> Phone; >> 704-732-4470 >> Skipe; >> Lea.williams738 >> Facebook >> http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alexandera.castillo%40gmail.com > From dwebster125 at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 15:54:42 2011 From: dwebster125 at comcast.net (Dave Webster) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:54:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111112054044.01cbdd40@earthlink.net> References: <4ebc29cf.08892a0a.74fa.210eSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <1309521D-304E-4145-BA30-217D5F4F266E@gmail.com> <5B2D32252DF94D9AAF38B4AC6AC9DC43@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20111112054044.01cbdd40@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000701cca153$64b3e350$2e1ba9f0$@comcast.net> What I always do is if I'm walking with someone, which I don't usually call it sighted guide. I just call it walking with someone, I usually will just touch their elbow and keep my cane with me but keep it in the right hand and keep it to my side just in case I need to use it. I do use it when like we're outside and there are street crossings and things like that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:45 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help Good morning, Ashley, To me, the term "sighted guide" ought not necessarily be reflective of whether a person can ocularly, see, but a description of someone fulfilling a role as a guide. For this reason I completely reject that term, for my own use. Things don't need to be defined into oblivion. At 03:40 PM 11/10/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >Mark, >I agree with you. I go sighted guide a lot when walking and talking >with another person. Its easier to keep in contact with them and >faster. Also, if I I use my cane, it might trip them. If you follow >them, where does the person stand so your cane isn't in the way? If >they're ahead of you, they cannot see your cane arc. Do they walk >behind and give directions? > >We cannot say we're independent and get a sighted guide everywhere we >go. Yet, in some circumstances, I think sighted guide is appropriate. >It just depends. >IMO, independence means we're in control of where we go and what we're >doing. So going out for dinner and grabbing an elbowof a companion >seems reasonable. You made a decision where to go and how to get there >and likely you'll use one group member as a reader of your bill and the >menu. > >I guess we balance when to use a guide. Mark, yes you can hang on to a >blind person. That is why they call it human guide now, not sighted guide. >O&M instructors changed the term recognizing that blind people can and >do guide each other. > >Ashley >-----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman >Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:26 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help > >Jedi wrote, >>we can't claim that we want to be independent travellers and ask for a >>sighted guide everywhere we go. > >I take this to mean that, if you are unable to travel anywhere without >sighted guide, you cannot call yourself an independent traveller. This >seems right and uncontroversial. But I think others, and I'm not >referring to the statement above, have made statements, which I'm too >lazy right now to find and cite directly, that suggest it is better, in >general, not to go sighted guide even when it is available. There are >times when it's appropriate no doubt, but as a rule, independence >requires foregoing sighted guide even when you are walking with a >sighted person. Perhaps there are more nuanced positions, and I'd be >interested in hearing those, but this is a sentiment I believe I've >picked up on. > >The thing that puzzles me is that it seems to be acceptable to "depend" >on the person with whom you are walking in certain ways (for example, >it's okay to listen to footsteps, or the persons voice, or follow >directions like left or right), but it's not acceptable to "depend" on >the person if it involves putting two fingers on the back of someone's >elbow. Why is one form of dependence acceptable while the other is >not? > >Now, this could be a difference in the definition of sighted guide. >When I go sighted guide, I continue to rely on my cane to find curbs, >stairs, poles, etc. I've always thought it strange to put the cane >away during sighted guide, not because I care about dependence or >independence, but because I would feel unsafe. I suppose if you put >away the cane and relied exclusively on the sighted person, this would >constitute a difference between sighted guide and listening to >footsteps, but as I said, this isn't my version of sighted guide. For >me, a light touch on the elbow is just a more convenient way of >tracking the person with whom I'm talking than is listening to >footsteps or voice. I do the same thing with my girlfriend who is also >blind. > >I go sighted guide nearly all of the time when I'm walking and talking >with another person even if that person is not sighted. Obviously, if >I'm travelling alone, there is no sighted guide, and I'm perfectly >comfortable with that. I don't think this is a matter of dependence or >independence since, whether I depend on footsteps/voice/directions or a >light touch on the elbow, I'm equally dependent. To me, this is a >matter of convenience. I could go from my apartment to my office, which >involves a bus ride, an LRT ride, and a walk across campus, without my >cane. I've walked it enough times that I'm sure I could do it, but it >would be far less convenient to do it this way. Yet no one would >suggest that I'm dependent on my cane, or at least no one would suggest >that I ought to try to be less dependent on my cane. Similarly, when >I'm having a conversation or receiving assistance from another person, >I could listen to footsteps/voice/directions, but I find this far less >convenient than lightly touching an elbow. > >I recognize that some people may see this and believe that I could not >do it on my own, but they would be mistaken. I also know that those >same people might assume that all blind people are like me and would >not be able to do it on their own either and that these beliefs might >affect, probably negatively, their interactions with other blind >people. Again, however, this would be their mistake, their prejudice, >and their discrimination. And while I regret that situation, I won't >let people's ignorance and stupidity dictate my behaviour. > >Cheers, > >Marc >On 2011-11-10, at 12:44 PM, Jedi wrote: > >>Bridgit, >> >>I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, walking >>alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think those >>blindness attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with you that >>our actions mean a lot; we can't claim that we want to be independent >>travelers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. >>I'm sorry to say that this is one of the few situations in which we >>can't have our cake and eat it, too. >> >>Respectfully, >>Jedi >> >>Original message: >>>I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to >>>blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like >>>cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a >>>person sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common >>>sense not dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, >>>that person is probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, >>>but it's a little difficult for me to understand how we can obviously >>>be doing things with no help, but when a sighted person is around we >>>suddenly need their help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this. >> >>>In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so >>>I don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as >>>much as possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely >>>low blood pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my >>>balance. On days like these, depending on what I need to do, I may >>>take more assistance than on good days, but I try to be as >>>independent as possible even on these days, but this also is just >>>because of my personality as much as it is related to blindness! >>>Smile. While going to school, classmates became accustomed to me >>>doing things and getting around without help, and I led the way when >>>it came to when and if I needed assistance. When classmates would see >>>me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else. >>>They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate >>>relationships. >> >>>The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our >>>actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as >>>possible in any given situation, people will pick up on this and >>>respect us as people. The more we work on our confidence, the more >>>people will take note, and more importantly, the better off we feel >>>about our independence and capabilities. >> >>>Sincerely, >>>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>>Read my blog at: >>>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >>>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >>>Message: 21 >>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500 >>>From: Patrick Molloy >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc. >>>Message-ID: >> >>> >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>>I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people >>>often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, >>>they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot >>>to be desired (if desired at all.) Patrick >> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40s >>>amobile.net >> >>-- >>Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >>mail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earth >link.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlin >k.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dwebster125%40comcast.ne t From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 17:08:03 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:08:03 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs fundraising committee meeting -all are welcomed! Message-ID: The Following comes from the nabs fundraising committee and is a great oppertunity to really dig in there and get some important work done for the division. Hello NABS Members, The NABS fundraising committee will be meeting on Sunday, November 13, 2011 at 4:00PM EDT. We are continuing work on our auction for Washington Seminar and are looking for volunteers to procure donations and brainstorm ways to make this auction unforgettable.  If you are interested in being part of the meeting or joining the committee call 712-775-7100 and dial code 257963# at 4pm EDT on Sunday. We look forward to seeing you there! Best Wishes, Domonique Lawless NABS Fundraising Committee Chair dlawless86 at gmail.com Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 17:49:15 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:49:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: <4E251085B19646579FD803601FB34277@Cptr233> References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> <4E251085B19646579FD803601FB34277@Cptr233> Message-ID: Hi all, As I said, I have taken two undergraduate and two graduate statistics courses. I agree that Braille textbooks are ideal, but I don't think Braille is the only way to learn the material. In fact, due to resource limitations at my university and some philosophical disagreements I had with my DSS office, I never had a Braille stats textbook, and I still did well in the course. For the first course I used E-text, and for the second course I used a recorded book from RFBD (now Learning Ally) on one of those old analog audiocassettes. Believe it or not, I had a better experience with the audio textbook than I did with the E-text, because some formulas and equations don't read properly with JAWS, but the RFBD reader was great at reading formulas and equations and describing diagrams. The secret when using an audio textbook is to take detailed notes, preferably in Braille on a slate or with a refreshable Braille notetaker like a Braille Note or Pac Mate. Copy down all the formulas you hear verbatim, so you can make yourself your own Braille equation book or file to study. Don't worry about proper Nemeth code; the key is to write it down in a way that makes sense to you, and that you can refer back to later. The same notetaking method is invaluable to use in class. In graduate-level stats, the textbook was optional and almost identical to the lecture material. I had a PDF copy of the text, but never read beyond the first chapter. (My sighted boyfriend didn't read the textbook either, and got a better grade in the class than I did :). I did my stats homework assignments on a regular computer in MS-Word, but used my Braille Note as a notepad to copy down data sets and to perform computations. Doing homework assignments on the Braille Note itself is also an option, although making your answers legible to a sighted grader requires some computer Braille knowledge, so I preferred to write my answers on the computer. Regarding an accessible stats calculator: again, I would recommend www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm It will do most introductory stat functions, is completely accessible, and is Web-based, so it can be used on your personal computer without having to purchase software. Despite the name, it is not graphical. In fact, I learned about it when I was a TA for a research methods course and my professor preferred teaching it rather than having our students learn a software application. If you are about to enroll in stats, I would suggest asking your professor if you can use Graphpad instead of whatever software program the rest of the class is using. If you are doing more advanced statistics work or analyzing your own data, you may want to invest in a software program. Both SAS and R are accessible, and R is free. (SPSS is more commonly used, but I have had some accessibility issues with it myself and I have heard conflicting things about whether newer versions are accessible). As a graduate student I got my department to buy and renew my SAS license so I can analyze my data, and I imagine most departments should be able to provide this accommodation especially if you are on a graduate student stipend. Finally, regarding those pesky graphs and diagrams: In my experience, graphs and diagrams are just one tool for understanding statistical concepts. Statistics itself is not a graphical field; performing statistical analyses requires the application of mathematical formulas but not the interpretation of graphs. Stats is taught to sighted students in a graphical way because this is the way many sighted people prefer to learn, but it is just one way of communicating the conceptual knowledge. Some blind students find the graphs helpful, while other blind students prefer to focus on the formulas and the mathematical side of things. Once you get beyond the first month of the course, it is mostly about doing a calculation and seeing if the number you get is greater than or less than another number you find in a table (called the critical value). This is relatively straightforward and requires no graphical information. By all means, though, if you are having trouble following the course or think a graph would be helpful, you should talk to your professor or teaching assistant in their office hours, or hire a tutor. Most professors and TA's would love to get more office-hour visits than they generally get in a semester. Again, I would be happy to talk one-on-one with anybody who is doing statistics or social science research, or to present about techniques for stats and research (including online and library research) at a NABS conference call or breakout session. Some of this stuff is better explained in person, but it is all important and relevant to most blind college students at some point in your career. Best, Arielle On 11/8/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: > I am currently enrolled in a statistics course. My college brailled the > necessary parts of the book that I needed. I could have not done it without > the book being brailled. So if I were to say the things that will make you > successful in a statistics course, are: brailled book, accessible statistic > calculater, and perhaps a tutor that can help you understand the graphics, > diagrams and the like. I would say, you will need to push your college or > university to Braille the book. Don't give up, because they will and can do > it. Mine said they could not, but I made a good case in that it would help > me understand the materials better. > > Good luck! > Marsha > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Miranda Morse > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course > > Hi Everyone, > > For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about > doing that? > > Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone successfully > used a PDF format for this course. > > Miranda > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmail.co > m > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6612 (20111108) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 6612 (20111108) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 12 18:31:38 2011 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:31:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Rozelle Wins Two American Humane Dog Hero Awards Message-ID: <005b01cca169$518bdba0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello everyone, Last night Roselle, a guide dog of Mike Hingson received two awards from the American Humane Association for her courage and devotion to her work and her master particularly on 9/11. Mike spoke several times during the presentation and emphasized the importance of the man-dog relationship and the team work that allowed Roselle to not only lead him safely out of the World Trade Center but to help other evacuees escape certain death. The American Humane Association awards an annual "Dog Hero" award along with awards for dogs in various categories such as guide dogs. The presentations were broadcast on the Hallmark Channel last night. Mary and I watch and cheered loudly when Mike was presented with Roselle's awards. Roselle received The American Humane Associations Distinguished Guide Dog Award as well as the 2011 Dog Hero Award. Mike also told the audience that the name "Roselle"has been retired by Guide Dogs for the Blind due to her notoriety and her distinguished place in the history of the Guide Dog Movement. Those who know the history of The Seeing Eye will know that the name "Buddy" was retired from use for many of the same reasons. Buddy was the first Seeing Eye Dog of Morris Frank. All of his subsequent dogs were also named "Buddy." Upon Morris's death the name "Buddy" was retired and is no longer in use. Buddy now has company in the annals of guide dog history. Congratulations to Mike Hingson and Roselle. Peter Donahue Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered. And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you." Will You Come to the Bower Traditional Irish Folk Song From icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us Sat Nov 12 19:34:58 2011 From: icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us (Icewolf) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:34:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> <4E251085B19646579FD803601FB34277@Cptr233> Message-ID: <4EBECA62.6080108@gtwebdesign.us> Hello Arielle, I am taking an introductory stats course. Do you know of a good online source for the critical value table that reads well with JAWS? The one in my book is kinda hard to follow. This stats stuff can be confusing. I am onto probabilities at the moment now. Thanks, Greg Wocher Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of all days. On 11/12/2011 12:49 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > As I said, I have taken two undergraduate and two graduate statistics > courses. I agree that Braille textbooks are ideal, but I don't think > Braille is the only way to learn the material. In fact, due to > resource limitations at my university and some philosophical > disagreements I had with my DSS office, I never had a Braille stats > textbook, and I still did well in the course. For the first course I > used E-text, and for the second course I used a recorded book from > RFBD (now Learning Ally) on one of those old analog audiocassettes. > Believe it or not, I had a better experience with the audio textbook > than I did with the E-text, because some formulas and equations don't > read properly with JAWS, but the RFBD reader was great at reading > formulas and equations and describing diagrams. The secret when using > an audio textbook is to take detailed notes, preferably in Braille on > a slate or with a refreshable Braille notetaker like a Braille Note or > Pac Mate. Copy down all the formulas you hear verbatim, so you can > make yourself your own Braille equation book or file to study. Don't > worry about proper Nemeth code; the key is to write it down in a way > that makes sense to you, and that you can refer back to later. The > same notetaking method is invaluable to use in class. In > graduate-level stats, the textbook was optional and almost identical > to the lecture material. I had a PDF copy of the text, but never read > beyond the first chapter. (My sighted boyfriend didn't read the > textbook either, and got a better grade in the class than I did :). > I did my stats homework assignments on a regular computer in MS-Word, > but used my Braille Note as a notepad to copy down data sets and to > perform computations. Doing homework assignments on the Braille Note > itself is also an option, although making your answers legible to a > sighted grader requires some computer Braille knowledge, so I > preferred to write my answers on the computer. > Regarding an accessible stats calculator: again, I would recommend > www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm > It will do most introductory stat functions, is completely accessible, > and is Web-based, so it can be used on your personal computer without > having to purchase software. Despite the name, it is not graphical. In > fact, I learned about it when I was a TA for a research methods course > and my professor preferred teaching it rather than having our students > learn a software application. If you are about to enroll in stats, I > would suggest asking your professor if you can use Graphpad instead of > whatever software program the rest of the class is using. If you are > doing more advanced statistics work or analyzing your own data, you > may want to invest in a software program. Both SAS and R are > accessible, and R is free. (SPSS is more commonly used, but I have had > some accessibility issues with it myself and I have heard conflicting > things about whether newer versions are accessible). As a graduate > student I got my department to buy and renew my SAS license so I can > analyze my data, and I imagine most departments should be able to > provide this accommodation especially if you are on a graduate student > stipend. > Finally, regarding those pesky graphs and diagrams: In my experience, > graphs and diagrams are just one tool for understanding statistical > concepts. Statistics itself is not a graphical field; performing > statistical analyses requires the application of mathematical formulas > but not the interpretation of graphs. Stats is taught to sighted > students in a graphical way because this is the way many sighted > people prefer to learn, but it is just one way of communicating the > conceptual knowledge. Some blind students find the graphs helpful, > while other blind students prefer to focus on the formulas and the > mathematical side of things. Once you get beyond the first month of > the course, it is mostly about doing a calculation and seeing if the > number you get is greater than or less than another number you find in > a table (called the critical value). This is relatively > straightforward and requires no graphical information. By all means, > though, if you are having trouble following the course or think a > graph would be helpful, you should talk to your professor or teaching > assistant in their office hours, or hire a tutor. Most professors and > TA's would love to get more office-hour visits than they generally get > in a semester. > Again, I would be happy to talk one-on-one with anybody who is doing > statistics or social science research, or to present about techniques > for stats and research (including online and library research) at a > NABS conference call or breakout session. Some of this stuff is better > explained in person, but it is all important and relevant to most > blind college students at some point in your career. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/8/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> I am currently enrolled in a statistics course. My college brailled the >> necessary parts of the book that I needed. I could have not done it without >> the book being brailled. So if I were to say the things that will make you >> successful in a statistics course, are: brailled book, accessible statistic >> calculater, and perhaps a tutor that can help you understand the graphics, >> diagrams and the like. I would say, you will need to push your college or >> university to Braille the book. Don't give up, because they will and can do >> it. Mine said they could not, but I made a good case in that it would help >> me understand the materials better. >> >> Good luck! >> Marsha >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Miranda Morse >> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:13 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about >> doing that? >> >> Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone successfully >> used a PDF format for this course. >> >> Miranda >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmail.co >> m >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature >> database 6612 (20111108) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature >> database 6612 (20111108) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 19:56:11 2011 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:56:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Rozelle Wins Two American Humane Dog Hero Awards In-Reply-To: <005b01cca169$518bdba0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <005b01cca169$518bdba0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Congrats to Mike and Roselle. That's an honor to have that name retired from the use of the guide dog schools. ANd, one thing, may Roselle be forever running through fields with wildflowers in them. She has shed her tired and worn-out body and she's waiting for Mike on the other side of the Rainbow Bridge. If anyone is familiar with it, I'd be too. I have a friend who loves dogs and she read the Rainbow Bridge poem to me, well, no she didn't, but told me about it. It's a great poem. Mike, I hope that Roselle and you have great times when it's time for you to leave this world, for she awaits you at the other side of the bridge. I'm sure you know this poem because someone might have told you. I hope these awards make you feel better and help you to realize she's watching over you now. I know, everyone never forgets their first dog, but she's sure to be a memory and a half more. Sincerely, Beth On 11/12/11, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > Last night Roselle, a guide dog of Mike Hingson received two awards from > the American Humane Association for her courage and devotion to her work and > her master particularly on 9/11. Mike spoke several times during the > presentation and emphasized the importance of the man-dog relationship and > the team work that allowed Roselle to not only lead him safely out of the > World Trade Center but to help other evacuees escape certain death. > > The American Humane Association awards an annual "Dog Hero" award along > with awards for dogs in various categories such as guide dogs. The > presentations were broadcast on the Hallmark Channel last night. Mary and I > watch and cheered loudly when Mike was presented with Roselle's awards. > Roselle received The American Humane Associations Distinguished Guide Dog > Award as well as the 2011 Dog Hero Award. > > Mike also told the audience that the name "Roselle"has been retired by > Guide Dogs for the Blind due to her notoriety and her distinguished place in > the history of the Guide Dog Movement. > > Those who know the history of The Seeing Eye will know that the name > "Buddy" was retired from use for many of the same reasons. Buddy was the > first Seeing Eye Dog of Morris Frank. All of his subsequent dogs were also > named "Buddy." Upon Morris's death the name "Buddy" was retired and is no > longer in use. Buddy now has company in the annals of guide dog history. > Congratulations to Mike Hingson and Roselle. > > Peter Donahue > > Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber > And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered. > And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you > On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you." > Will You Come to the Bower > Traditional Irish Folk Song > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From wmodnl at hotmail.com Sat Nov 12 20:39:13 2011 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:39:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making PP file. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:51:29 -0500 > From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Making PP file. > > Hey I have to make a Power Point prodject for computers and never done > it before. I tried to look at it but could not figure out how to do it > all. Could some one explain? Thanks. > > -- > Lea Williams > > Phone; > 704-732-4470 > Skipe; > Lea.williams738 > Facebook > http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com H From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 20:41:36 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:41:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities Message-ID: <4ebeda21.a26e340a.476b.1283@mx.google.com> Hi=20Ashley=20and=20Bridgit, Let=20me=20point=20out=20that=20although=20there=20is=20still=20discriminat= ion=20and=20 inequality=20in=20America,=20it's=20not,=20in=20my=20opinion,=20because=20o= ur=20 "democracy"=20is=20flawed;=20we=20don't=20have=20a=20democracy!=20We=20have= =20a=20 Republic=20for=20a=20system=20of=20government,=20which=20is=20different=20f= rom=20a=20 Democratic=20form=20of=20government.=20=20The=20difference=20is=20that=20in= =20a=20true=20 democracy,=20the=20country=20is=20ruled=20by=20the=20people=20as=20a=20coll= ective,=20 all-powerful=20group.=20=20In=20other=20words,=20it=20is=20what=20some=20wo= uld=20call=20 "mob=20rule."=20This=20historically=20has=20caused=20riots=20and=20chaos,=20= which=20 usually=20leads=20to=20the=20end=20of=20whatever=20country=20tried=20it.=20= =20As=20a=20 republic,=20we=20have=20representatives=20who=20are=20sent=20to=20represent= =20the=20 people=20in=20our=20government.=20=20We=20then=20vote=20for=20who=20we=20th= ink=20would=20be=20 best=20to=20represent=20us.=20=20So,=20the=20discrimination=20and=20inequal= ity=20 isn't=20because=20of=20our=20system=20of=20government,=20in=20my=20opinion.= Chris -----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20 Oh, great! Have a great convention, Ashley! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" ,"National Association of Blind Students mailing list" ---- Original Message ------ From: Amy Phelps -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MentoringTall_2011R8_Page_2.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 169516 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mentoring Flyer.doc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 32259 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment Type: application/octet-stream Size: 297 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 20:41:19 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:41:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?NFB-NEWSLINE=AE_System_News?= Message-ID: <4ebeda10.a26e340a.476b.127a@mx.google.com> If you have an email address on file with Newsline and are subscribed to it, you probably got this already, but I'm passing it on for your information. ---- Original Message ------ From: NFB-NEWSLINE® Hi Ashley and Bridgit, > Let me point out that although there is still discrimination and > inequality in America, it's not, in my opinion, because our > "democracy" is flawed; we don't have a democracy! We have a > Republic for a system of government, which is different from a > Democratic form of government. The difference is that in a true > democracy, the country is ruled by the people as a collective, > all-powerful group. In other words, it is what some would call > "mob rule." This historically has caused riots and chaos, which > usually leads to the end of whatever country tried it. As a > republic, we have representatives who are sent to represent the > people in our government. We then vote for who we think would be > best to represent us. So, the discrimination and inequality > isn't because of our system of government, in my opinion. > Chris > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:54:56 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities > Bridget, > Well said. I agree there is discrimination and not enough > equality. And > other minorities are fighting for the same thing. > However, I will do my part to participate in the democracy we > have, even > though it’s a flawed one. I'm voting next tuesday! > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 1:20 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities > Jedi, > I also identify with feminism, but I consider myself a part of a > new > wave of feminist, as it were; my term, no official definition! > Smile. I > just try to consider all people equals. It's not about asserting > dominance over any particular group, or being just like a man; > it's > about being me, the best me, and not buying into preconceived > ideas. > I don't back down from my positions and arguments unless I find > sense or > logic in another's view point. Feminism, true feminism, which is > about > equality, is often misconstrued and viewed in a negative light. > I tried > to tailor my argument so as to not focus on feminism in and of > itself, > but to display how far from true equality this world really is. > We've lulled ourselves into a false sense of equality in today's > world. > Yet everywhere we look, discrimination and prejudice remain > staunch > parts of life. I totter on the edge of controversy here, but we > send > military presences into other countries demanding, forcing them > to > accept a democratic way of life, but in our own country many of > us are > still struggling to be considered a part of the so-called > democratic > society here. Yes, I'm not so stupid to not realize in many > instances > people in other countries experience medieval-like ways of life > and > horrid governments that will kill to get what they want, but in > terms of > a democratic, equal life, no one has achieved this. How can > Americans > take on the role of big brother when we won't give certain rights > and > respect to groups living in America? Our perspective is skewed. > I'm not > necessarily claiming we intentionally dish out inproportionate > amounts > of equality, but because many don't have to deal with certain > experiences or have much exposure to them, they fail to realize > the > truth. Unfortunately this ignorance has led too many to think we > live as > equals, and that opportunity is simply something you reach out > for and > grab it, as though opportunity is attainable equally. Ten > percent of > students learning Braille is certainly not a statistic allowing a > minority to simply reach out and achieve anything. > Anyway, I didn't mean to come across with a wishy-washy message; > it's > just that my focus was on showing that people with disabilities > are not > the only group still fighting to be viewed as capable equals. > And I > personally don't look at certain women differently just because > they > choose to take a path less traveled these days. Whether working > or not, > I don't think we should judge anyone who is pursuing something > they love > or being productive even if not in a conventional or traditional > way. I > believe in equality among genders, and I think women should be > able to > choose whatever path that makes them happy; meanwhile, my > ultimate dream > is to be a soccer mom! Smile. > It's going to take time to convince people that disability isn't > the end > of the road. It helps when people with disabilities actually > live up to > the standards and ideas espoused by groups like the Federation, > but the > same comment can be said about any minority or under-served > group. I > think the best way to truly affect society is to live our lives > and meet > the same expectations placed on the rest of the world- to achieve > averageness should be the goal all people with disabilities works > towards. Smirky grin. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:53:20 -0400 > From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minority groups > Message-ID: ef9b1671-465f-4c4b-8cd7-511b7cd8d5c3 at samobile.net > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > Bridgit, > Never apologize for what you say here if it comes from your > deepest > experience. This is exactly the discussion we should be having. > And > really, there is nothing dirty about feminism. In fact, > feminists have > been saying the same thing for decades that you've just said here > on > list. So while you personally may not identify as feminist, you > do > share feminist beliefs. I identify as a feminist, and we're not > all > bra-burning crazies out to get men, we're just men and women who > are as > sick of sex oppression as you are. > Respectfully, > Jedi > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 22:06:37 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:06:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: <4EBECA62.6080108@gtwebdesign.us> References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> <4E251085B19646579FD803601FB34277@Cptr233> <4EBECA62.6080108@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: Hi Greg, I found an online table of critical values for the T-statistic at http://www.jeremymiles.co.uk/misc/tables/t-test.html That is the most common table you'll use. You can also go to www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm and do the following: 1. Select the third option, "statistical distributions and interpreting p-vvalues". 2. Select the second option, "calculate z, f, t, or chi-square from a probability". 3. To find the critical value for z, enter your alpha level (it will usually be .05) in the "probability" box and click "compute z". To find the critical value for a T-test, enter your alpha level in the "probability" box as above and your degrees of freedom in the "df" box, and then click "compute t". If what you are needing to do is to find the probability for a given z or t-statistic, go to graphpad as above, select "statistical distributions and interpreting p-values" as above. Then select the first option, "calculate p from z, t, f, or chi-square". Enter the z or t-statistic you have in the relevant box and click "compute p from z" or "compute p from t" accordingly. The calculator will tell you the probability. I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if I misunderstood what you need to do with the critical value table or if my suggestions don't work. Best, Arielle On 11/12/11, Icewolf wrote: > Hello Arielle, > I am taking an introductory stats course. Do you know of a good online > source for the critical value table that reads well with JAWS? The one > in my book is kinda hard to follow. This stats stuff can be confusing. > I am onto probabilities at the moment now. > Thanks, > Greg Wocher > > > Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of all > days. > > > On 11/12/2011 12:49 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> As I said, I have taken two undergraduate and two graduate statistics >> courses. I agree that Braille textbooks are ideal, but I don't think >> Braille is the only way to learn the material. In fact, due to >> resource limitations at my university and some philosophical >> disagreements I had with my DSS office, I never had a Braille stats >> textbook, and I still did well in the course. For the first course I >> used E-text, and for the second course I used a recorded book from >> RFBD (now Learning Ally) on one of those old analog audiocassettes. >> Believe it or not, I had a better experience with the audio textbook >> than I did with the E-text, because some formulas and equations don't >> read properly with JAWS, but the RFBD reader was great at reading >> formulas and equations and describing diagrams. The secret when using >> an audio textbook is to take detailed notes, preferably in Braille on >> a slate or with a refreshable Braille notetaker like a Braille Note or >> Pac Mate. Copy down all the formulas you hear verbatim, so you can >> make yourself your own Braille equation book or file to study. Don't >> worry about proper Nemeth code; the key is to write it down in a way >> that makes sense to you, and that you can refer back to later. The >> same notetaking method is invaluable to use in class. In >> graduate-level stats, the textbook was optional and almost identical >> to the lecture material. I had a PDF copy of the text, but never read >> beyond the first chapter. (My sighted boyfriend didn't read the >> textbook either, and got a better grade in the class than I did :). >> I did my stats homework assignments on a regular computer in MS-Word, >> but used my Braille Note as a notepad to copy down data sets and to >> perform computations. Doing homework assignments on the Braille Note >> itself is also an option, although making your answers legible to a >> sighted grader requires some computer Braille knowledge, so I >> preferred to write my answers on the computer. >> Regarding an accessible stats calculator: again, I would recommend >> www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm >> It will do most introductory stat functions, is completely accessible, >> and is Web-based, so it can be used on your personal computer without >> having to purchase software. Despite the name, it is not graphical. In >> fact, I learned about it when I was a TA for a research methods course >> and my professor preferred teaching it rather than having our students >> learn a software application. If you are about to enroll in stats, I >> would suggest asking your professor if you can use Graphpad instead of >> whatever software program the rest of the class is using. If you are >> doing more advanced statistics work or analyzing your own data, you >> may want to invest in a software program. Both SAS and R are >> accessible, and R is free. (SPSS is more commonly used, but I have had >> some accessibility issues with it myself and I have heard conflicting >> things about whether newer versions are accessible). As a graduate >> student I got my department to buy and renew my SAS license so I can >> analyze my data, and I imagine most departments should be able to >> provide this accommodation especially if you are on a graduate student >> stipend. >> Finally, regarding those pesky graphs and diagrams: In my experience, >> graphs and diagrams are just one tool for understanding statistical >> concepts. Statistics itself is not a graphical field; performing >> statistical analyses requires the application of mathematical formulas >> but not the interpretation of graphs. Stats is taught to sighted >> students in a graphical way because this is the way many sighted >> people prefer to learn, but it is just one way of communicating the >> conceptual knowledge. Some blind students find the graphs helpful, >> while other blind students prefer to focus on the formulas and the >> mathematical side of things. Once you get beyond the first month of >> the course, it is mostly about doing a calculation and seeing if the >> number you get is greater than or less than another number you find in >> a table (called the critical value). This is relatively >> straightforward and requires no graphical information. By all means, >> though, if you are having trouble following the course or think a >> graph would be helpful, you should talk to your professor or teaching >> assistant in their office hours, or hire a tutor. Most professors and >> TA's would love to get more office-hour visits than they generally get >> in a semester. >> Again, I would be happy to talk one-on-one with anybody who is doing >> statistics or social science research, or to present about techniques >> for stats and research (including online and library research) at a >> NABS conference call or breakout session. Some of this stuff is better >> explained in person, but it is all important and relevant to most >> blind college students at some point in your career. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/8/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>> I am currently enrolled in a statistics course. My college brailled the >>> necessary parts of the book that I needed. I could have not done it >>> without >>> the book being brailled. So if I were to say the things that will make >>> you >>> successful in a statistics course, are: brailled book, accessible >>> statistic >>> calculater, and perhaps a tutor that can help you understand the >>> graphics, >>> diagrams and the like. I would say, you will need to push your college or >>> university to Braille the book. Don't give up, because they will and can >>> do >>> it. Mine said they could not, but I made a good case in that it would >>> help >>> me understand the materials better. >>> >>> Good luck! >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Miranda Morse >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:13 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course >>> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> >>> For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about >>> doing that? >>> >>> Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone >>> successfully >>> used a PDF format for this course. >>> >>> Miranda >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmail.co >>> m >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 6612 (20111108) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 6612 (20111108) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 22:36:57 2011 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:36:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blindness Vs other minority groups References: <4ebc7de4.8406340a.6c70.0b73@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5ACE905F040D4E3EAF961018D7A79881@PC185582706413> I agree, it was very well put. I also felt like comparing race to blindness was alittle abstract, but you did a very good job, Alex, saying people don't necessarily judge you on how well you do by your race as they do with blindness/disability. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blindness Vs other minority groups > Great post, Alex! Very well written, and I totally agree! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alexander Castillo To: nabs-l Date sent: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 01:51:26 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] blindness Vs other minority groups > > Hello all, first, I would like to identify myself as someone who is > coming from the perspective of two minority > > groups. I am blind, and I am also from the Dominican Republic. > > Let's start off with the statement that Joshua made about Christianity > being an acceptible religion to poke fun at. > > This example misses the point, as christians in this country are a > majority, not a minority. I'm not saying that > > one should be able to make fun of Christianity because of this, I am > saying that it does not fit into the topic. > > However, if we lived in a mostly non-christian nation, and christians > were a minority, then the comparison would be > > right on the money. > > The issue is whether or not blindness differs from other minority > groups. And, I do not think that it does. If you > > take a look at people who have been historicly oppressed, look at the > symptoms which have come from that > > oppression, the stereotypes and discrimination, we could probably draw > the conclusion that indeed, blindness is and > > should be considered a disadvantaged minority group. > > Once while walking home from a night of bowling I was told by a woman > that "I was walking very well for someone > > blind." she then continued to say that I was almost walking faster > than she was. She meant this as a compliment. > > While chopping vegetables,I heard a man say "Wow, he's chopping up > that pepper like he's not even blind.." > > > One of my brother's friends once told him that he did not understand > how I always "stayed fresh" meaning that I was > > always well dressed and looking sharp. > > I understand what this means. Blind people are understood to lack the > skills which sighted people inherently > > possess, and therefore, as a blind person, I was doing so well that > the sighted person was impressed. > > Now, I will say that even though hispanics/latinos in this country > have a high school drop out rate, that in the > > workforce we still hold mostly blue collar jobs, that many of us pay > taxes at a lower income braquet, and yes, we > > as a whole in this country are considered for a very good part > disadvantaged," No one would dare tell me that I was > > doing so well for myself even though I was Hispanic. > > Disability, is very slowly beginning to be looked at as a minority > group in the same way as ethnicity, gender, > > religion... The change is taking place because for once, the > disability community, and in our particular case the > > blind community, is being led by our own people. But this is a very > slow process, and I would say that most of the > > general population does not understand the change, or why even why > they have such a rigid view on disability. > > Disability, and blindness in particular, are considered weaknesses, > flaws, things which make the typical human being > > incomplete. It is rarely seen among the "able-bodied" as a simple > characteristic. If we consider this perspective, > > the "able-bodied" or sighted person is indeed giving a compliment. > They are saying: I recognize your flaw, and I > > recognize how you have overcome it. > > Indeed, we do deserve the same considerations as other minorities,we > have had a history of opression, a history of > > activism against such oppression, but what we lack is that point in > history in which we had not been oppressed. > > We cannot point to a map and say, once upon a time, our people were > free in this place, or once upon a time, > > societyconsidered us equal. The blind, for the most part have remained > mysterious, and strange to the able-bodied,to > > the sighted, to the typical human. > > > We are even mysterious and srange to ourselves, often wondering why > some blind people do this, or why some blind > > people do that. > > Every day however, I come across more and more blind people who are > ready for employment, who are confident, who do > > not have and will not suffer the same stereotyping and discrimination > that many of us have and will face. These > > people willl be the new representation of the blind. They will be seen > as active and intergrated members of society. > > and the more that we strive to pull ourselves and others out of > conditions of being a minority group, the more > > force our new perspective on disability and in our case blindness will > be absorbed into the fabric of society. > > This was a long post, so thanks for reading, > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com > From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 22:37:09 2011 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:37:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blindness Vs other minority groups References: <4ebc7de4.8406340a.6c70.0b73@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <41D0BE873556402E8F3651FDD7483EE8@PC185582706413> I agree, it was very well put. I also felt like comparing race to blindness was alittle abstract, but you did a very good job, Alex, saying people don't necessarily judge you on how well you do by your race as they do with blindness/disability. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blindness Vs other minority groups > Great post, Alex! Very well written, and I totally agree! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alexander Castillo To: nabs-l Date sent: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 01:51:26 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] blindness Vs other minority groups > > Hello all, first, I would like to identify myself as someone who is > coming from the perspective of two minority > > groups. I am blind, and I am also from the Dominican Republic. > > Let's start off with the statement that Joshua made about Christianity > being an acceptible religion to poke fun at. > > This example misses the point, as christians in this country are a > majority, not a minority. I'm not saying that > > one should be able to make fun of Christianity because of this, I am > saying that it does not fit into the topic. > > However, if we lived in a mostly non-christian nation, and christians > were a minority, then the comparison would be > > right on the money. > > The issue is whether or not blindness differs from other minority > groups. And, I do not think that it does. If you > > take a look at people who have been historicly oppressed, look at the > symptoms which have come from that > > oppression, the stereotypes and discrimination, we could probably draw > the conclusion that indeed, blindness is and > > should be considered a disadvantaged minority group. > > Once while walking home from a night of bowling I was told by a woman > that "I was walking very well for someone > > blind." she then continued to say that I was almost walking faster > than she was. She meant this as a compliment. > > While chopping vegetables,I heard a man say "Wow, he's chopping up > that pepper like he's not even blind.." > > > One of my brother's friends once told him that he did not understand > how I always "stayed fresh" meaning that I was > > always well dressed and looking sharp. > > I understand what this means. Blind people are understood to lack the > skills which sighted people inherently > > possess, and therefore, as a blind person, I was doing so well that > the sighted person was impressed. > > Now, I will say that even though hispanics/latinos in this country > have a high school drop out rate, that in the > > workforce we still hold mostly blue collar jobs, that many of us pay > taxes at a lower income braquet, and yes, we > > as a whole in this country are considered for a very good part > disadvantaged," No one would dare tell me that I was > > doing so well for myself even though I was Hispanic. > > Disability, is very slowly beginning to be looked at as a minority > group in the same way as ethnicity, gender, > > religion... The change is taking place because for once, the > disability community, and in our particular case the > > blind community, is being led by our own people. But this is a very > slow process, and I would say that most of the > > general population does not understand the change, or why even why > they have such a rigid view on disability. > > Disability, and blindness in particular, are considered weaknesses, > flaws, things which make the typical human being > > incomplete. It is rarely seen among the "able-bodied" as a simple > characteristic. If we consider this perspective, > > the "able-bodied" or sighted person is indeed giving a compliment. > They are saying: I recognize your flaw, and I > > recognize how you have overcome it. > > Indeed, we do deserve the same considerations as other minorities,we > have had a history of opression, a history of > > activism against such oppression, but what we lack is that point in > history in which we had not been oppressed. > > We cannot point to a map and say, once upon a time, our people were > free in this place, or once upon a time, > > societyconsidered us equal. The blind, for the most part have remained > mysterious, and strange to the able-bodied,to > > the sighted, to the typical human. > > > We are even mysterious and srange to ourselves, often wondering why > some blind people do this, or why some blind > > people do that. > > Every day however, I come across more and more blind people who are > ready for employment, who are confident, who do > > not have and will not suffer the same stereotyping and discrimination > that many of us have and will face. These > > people willl be the new representation of the blind. They will be seen > as active and intergrated members of society. > > and the more that we strive to pull ourselves and others out of > conditions of being a minority group, the more > > force our new perspective on disability and in our case blindness will > be absorbed into the fabric of society. > > This was a long post, so thanks for reading, > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 23:08:50 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:08:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Upcoming NFB Colorado State Convention In-Reply-To: <4ebeda0f.a26e340a.476b.1278@mx.google.com> References: <4ebeda0f.a26e340a.476b.1278@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <141047A37770490C8D3E46FC9E2B1880@OwnerPC> Chris, Our convention went well. We had a congressman visit us and heard about the last Bell program here. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:41 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Upcoming NFB Colorado State Convention Oh, great! Have a great convention, Ashley! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" ,"National Association of Blind Students mailing list" References: <4ebc791b.09b9340a.364b.07d9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Nice going, Chris! I have had a few people ask about praying for me, and I'm always too dumbfounded to come up with a good or intelligent response. I think what you said about praying for less discrimination is right on, and hopefully gets the point across to those guys. One thing I said once when I was asked about being prayed for was "you can pray for me if you want to, but I think there are probably a lot of other people who need the prayers more than I do". Funny story-once a few years ago at Washington Seminar, I was in one of the House buildings with two other blind people from our affiliate, and someone came up and for some reason wanted to pray for just me. She said something about thanking God for making me so beautiful. Um...What? Best, Arielle On 11/10/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Beth, > > Now, I have to first say to everyone that this is a good > discussion, but I hope we don't get too off topic, and I really > hope this discussion doesn't turn into another one like the one > we had in September. Not saying that anyone is doing anything > like that, but just a fair warning. Beth, as for all religions, > there are radicals in all religions. There are a few Muslims who > I know (including you now, BTW, give me a call on Skype sometime, > haven't been able to get a hold of you on Skype in a while,) and > my beliefs on the Muslim religion as a whole have changed since I > met one. I first thought that they were some radical religious > movement which believed in terrorism and holy war. But I learned > that this isn't the case for many Muslims; in fact, many of you > denounce (or at least don't agree with) what the extremists do. > Similarly, while I respect your ability to make decisions about > your religious beliefs and your conversion to Islam, I just want > to let you know that many Christians (like myself and other blind > Christians) don't believe what your family members believe. I > have never run into problems at my church with Christianity and > blindness, and I don't think a lot of Christians believe that > blindness is unbearable. Well, let's just point out that many > members of the sighted public, regardless of their religion, > believe that blindness is unbearable. The only time I ran into > any problems with misconceptions about blindness and religion > together was when I was on an O and M lesson in my hometown this > summer and a really elderly gengleman came up to us (my > instructor and I) just as I was preparing to cross the street, > (he scared me a little) and started asking my teacher (like she > was supposed to be speaking for me) if I wanted to be put on his > church's prayer list. Thankfully, she told him that he could ask > me and that I was old enough to make those kinds of decisions on > my own. When he (reluctantly enough) finally asked me, I > answered, "Thank you for the consideration, but why exactly do > you want to pray for me? I'm not sick, nor am I in some kind of > emotional trouble." He answered that he wanted to pray for me > because I was "um... unsighted" and he wanted Jesus to "heal" > me. Then, once again turning to my teacher, he asked, "How long > has he been that way?" That's right, "that way!" He couldn't even > bring himself to say the word blind, lest the mere mention of the > word offend me, even when he knew I was travelling and > functioning pretty independently and confidently, and seemed to > have no problem whatsoever with the fact that I was blind! She > then prompted him once again to talk to me, and he asked me the > question. Politely enough, I answered "I was born blind," > putting a little emphasis on the word blind. Starting to stare > at me in what was probably wonder at my independence, he said, > "You're born that way! Well, that's something! Well we'll pray > for you!" I thanked him for the prayer, and said that "if you put > me on your prayer list, I hope you will also pray that sighted > people will see that blind people can be on terms of equality > with them, and that we're just as capable as them, although we > might do things differently. If sighted people see this, then I > pray that there will be no more discrimination against the blind > just because we're blind." I didn't say those exact words, but it > was pretty much the same. So there you have it. Misconceptions > rear their ugly head yet again, and I hope I got the point > across. To close, I will say this; you've probably heard the old > saying "Agitate, agitate, agitate." Well, for us, it's "Educate, > educate, educate!" > > Chris > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Beth To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list Date sent: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:53:36 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > Try being Blind, Muslim, and Somali. I converted to Islam and > associate with Somalis, who are viewed as "violent, bombers, > people who just want to absolutely throw you into a ditch." Not > that anyone has ever said that. But the news views Somalis as > "confidants of Al Shabbab" and so on. Deq, my Somali friend, is > so sweet, and so intelligent, I forget about the whole Somali > thing. Being a Muslim is not a bad dea at all. Jedi, I see what > you've got in the "unusual religion" category. I don't think > your stuff is too unusual. Your religion could be categorized as > "super Buddhism". My religion could be classified according to > interpretations of the Quran. To those who practice > Judaeo-Christian heritage, I don't think it's a bad heritage. > I've been there. But I didn't feel it was appropriate because > the charismmatic Christians in my family didn't feel that > blindness is something bearable. Islam believes that if you > "suffer", or if you really are suffering from mental illness or > blindness, then if you are also patient with what you have, then > you are bound for Heaven or Paradise as we call it. Being blind > AND a Muslim is a bad idea in some states like Florida, but not a > bad idea in Colorado, where the Somali population is third > largest only to one other state ad Minnesota. I don't remember, > uh, I think it was Maine I was thinking of. I'm not Somali > myself, but since Deq is a Somali, people tend to say things that > aren't so nice about him, blind or otherwise. I usually stop and > defend him. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 23:27:07 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > Arielle, > > I think you're right that speaking about blindness in such a > negative > way is no different than speaking about other minorities in this > fashion. I think the problem is twofold. First, people honestly > feel > that they are being kind to us, but they understand on some level > that > negative comments about other minorities are not kind; most > people > don't understand how their kindness impacts us. The other > problem > is > that, up to this point, we haven't spoken with a clear voice on > the > matter of how we're treated by the sighted. Yes, there are our > banquet > speeches and our public announcements, but we're pressured into > everyday politeness by both blind and sighted persons so much > that > we're afraid to tell the sighted how their so-called kindness > really > impacts us; the end result is that the sighted have no idea how > we > really feel about their behavior and we continue to have the same > old > issues we've had forever. Other minorities have done a much > better job > of voicing their frustrations than we have on an interpersonal > level. > We've conditioned ourselves into thinking that we owe the sighted > some > form of special courtesy since we're so afraid that they're going > to > judge us all based on the reactions of one person. If you want > evidence, consider "Don't Throw the Nickel" and "The Nature of > Independence." > > Let me say now what I've personally decided to do when it comes > to this > very issue. I stressed myself out to the point of needing > counseling > over whether or not the sighted would judge all of us based on my > actions; I stressed out because i was afraid of how the rest of > you > might judge me if you ever found out about how I handled this or > that > interaction. That's a hell of a lot of pressure! I personally > internalized the frustrations of all of us and this obsessive > need to > educate the sighted. I felt it was my responsibility to be an > ambassador for the blind. I'm not kidding when I tell you that I > emotionally hurt myself and physically drained my personal > resources. > After a lot of soul-searching and some professional help, I've > decided > to abdicate my role as ambassador for the blind unless I > willingly put > myself in that position (e.g. a meet the blind month activity or > presentation on blindness). I have also abdicated my role as the > educator. I've decided to stop dialoguing with the sighted > through > education and I've decided to start educating through dialogue. > This > needs explaining. If a sighted person says "You do so well that > I > forget you're blind," I say (if I think it's important enough), > "I feel > stuck when I hear you say that I'm so good at X that you forget > that > I'm blind. First, I feel forced to thank you for what you > perceived to > be a compliment because, if I don't thank you, I'm the rude one > here. > But at the same time, I feel hurt that you would say something > like > that because I hear you saying that you don't expect me to do so > well > because I'm blind and so are surprised, or that you somehow think > that > I'm better than whatever image you've created of me and my blind > friends. This isn't to say that I don't recognize your attempt > at > kindness, but I'd rather you tell me that you appreciate > something I'm > good at because I'm good at it, not because I seem to go beyond > an > expectation I perceive you've set for me." Use whatever words you > like > folks. If you're genuinely grateful for the comment, say so. If > you're > angry, say so. But for goodness sake, don't just be quiet > because > you're expected to be polite. This is a great way to stack these > things > up in your heart. And if you can't say whatever you need to say > to the > person you need to say it to, find someone to say it to like a > friend > or a colleague who understands you. Put it in an e-mail message > or > whatever you need to do. That's what other minorities have been > doing > with comments like this, and I don't understand why we've not > caught on > except that we somehow seem to think we don't deserve this kind > of > equality. And you know what, some sighted people won't get it no > matter > what you do or say. But some will, and they'll appreciate your > heart-felt honesty a hell of a lot more than whatever platitude > you offer. > > Arielle, you asked some of us to talk about our other minority > statuses > if we have them. I fit into the "unusual religious belief" > category, > and my legal name reflects that fact. Some of you may know how > much > crap I've received from some regarding my preference to be called > "Jedi" rather than my given name "Jennifer." I learned the hard > way > that going along to get along is a terrible choice. by going > along to > get along, I felt like some part of myself wasn't being heard. > And if I > fought against the tide of people telling me what to call myself, > I > felt like my words and reasons were falling into nothingness, > even by > people who cared about me but couldn't understand how important > this > preference was to me. So finally, i decided that I need to > respect > myself, especially because i wasn't getting much from others in > this > respect. So I changed my name legally and now it's no problem. > I'm sure > some people were disappointed in me for whatever reason. But I > think > they learned to respect me more as a person because I stood up > for > myself and didn't ask their permission to be who and what I am. > I > think > the sighted are the same way. Maybe dramatic demonstrations such > as > mine aren't required in every situation, but I think we need to > be > ready for those times when they are. > > So in short, when you find yourself in a situation where a > sighted > person has said or done something to you, think about how that > really > makes you feel inside. And if it's important to you, make it a > point to > say whatever it is you feel you need to say. And since the rest > of us > aren't with you when you're going through this process, none of > us have > the right to judge you for whatever you do because we might have > done > the same had we been in your shoes. And if we really support > each > other > and our collective bid for freedom, we shouldn't judge you > anyway. Only > you know what's right for you in how you deal with the sighted, > and > your experiences will tell you if any changes are needed to your > approach. As to the reactions of the sighted, realize that > they'll get > over it; they're just as resilient as we are, and someone might > actually take what you have to say to heart, I've heard it happen > before and I've witnessed it myself. And really folks, we can't > expect > ourselves to represent all of us all of the time. We are a > people's > movement, yes. But first and foremost, we are people. > > If what I say feels right to any of you, let's get in contact > because > I'm working on some workshops in which ideas like these can be > further > explored and spread to the Federationists who are interested in > this > kind of thing. > > Thanks for asking the question, Arielle. It's high time someone > did. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, > but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as > blind > people to think about. > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced > by the > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other > minority > groups in this country historically and in the present. More > than > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us > as a > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It > has > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us > in > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering > that > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination > against other minority groups. > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the > Blind, Jim > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center > and a > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so > well, > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, > Mr. > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a > philosophy > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You > are such > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, > what I > said about you being blind was very different from what you said > about > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, > so > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To > me > this > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to > a > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a > difference > here? > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views > about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless > have > no > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like > saying > blind > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that > blind > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, > etc. > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't > understand > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members > will > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. > They > think > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I > don't > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a > collective. > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that > they > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the > protests > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many > people > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could > do-and yet > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in > our > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed > that the > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a > survey > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet > would > never say such things directly about another minority group-in > fact, > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit > their > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more > accurate > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination > against > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such > a > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the > same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's > awareness? Do > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other > minorities > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do > we get > members of the public to see this? > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are > "dual > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in > this > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, > uncommon > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > I look forward to the discussion. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi > %40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 00:05:49 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:05:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Making PP file. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Leah, When you open PowerPoint it will put you into a blank presentation for you to edit. The presentation will start out with one slide, the title slide. The title slide has built-in boxes for "title" and "sub-title". Use tab to move around from one box to the other within the slide, and use enter to open a box for editing. For example, to add your title, tab until JAWS says "title place holder" and then press enter and type in your title. To get out of the title box, press escape and then press tab to go to the subtitle. To edit the subtitle box, press enter, etc. To add new slides one at a time there is a command somewhere on the home ribbon. Tab to it, press enter when you find the "new slide" and then arrow through the choices to figure out what type of slide you want. Most PowerPoint slides are simply "title and content" meaning there are two boxes on the slide: one for the slide title and the second for the text you want to display on the slide. Once you have several slides, you can use "page up" and "page down" to move from slide to slide. Please feel free to email with more specific questions. Also some of this is tricky to explain over email, so if you prefer you can call me at 602-502-2255 Best, Arielle On 11/12/11, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > > > > >> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:51:29 -0500 >> From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Making PP file. >> >> Hey I have to make a Power Point prodject for computers and never done >> it before. I tried to look at it but could not figure out how to do it >> all. Could some one explain? Thanks. >> >> -- >> Lea Williams >> >> Phone; >> 704-732-4470 >> Skipe; >> Lea.williams738 >> Facebook >> http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > H > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 13 00:46:04 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:46:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chris, I think you took a much to literal interpretation on my comment wich was meant to be cynical. And I understand the difference between a republic and a democracy, and realize that America has more of a republic form of government than a democracy, but it's still taught as a democracy in schools, and our form of government is officially listed as a democracy. If you look The United States of America up, our form of government is listed as a democracy even though we've never been a true democracy. That out of the way, my comment wasn't meant to necessarily reflect our government system, but to outline the irony of America acting like Big Brother with other countries, sending troops in, forcing a specific political system and demanding more equality when America itself is still struggling to accept people as equals. This isn't meant to be anti-American, but just a satirical comment on equality and how we view it. People with disabilities are still viewed as less capable leaving us out of employment, having CPS investigate our lives when starting families, assuming we can't do much independently and so forth and so on. Gays still don't have ordinary rights afforded to heterosexuals, and since we are suppose to have a separation of church and state, religious arguments shouldn't be a factor in what rights gays have, which is the primary reason we don't allow things like gay marriage. Racism is still a huge issue whether you want to believe it or not. It may not be as socially acceptable to be an out-loud-racist, but trust me, racist mindsets are just as prevalent today as they once were. And yet we expect other countries to adopt more tolerant attitudes towards differing races and religions, to not follow dictatorships or corrupt monarchies or corrupt political systems with alleged presidents or prime ministers. The goal is to find tolerance and equality, yet we miss the mark in our own country. I was not saying inequality is solely due to a flawed government since no government is without its flaws. And while on the subject, no government has withstood the test of time. All countries have experienced political upheaval through the centuries, but again, my commentary wasn't focused on governments but the concept of equality, and how our own country views equality. I'm no political expert, nor am I anti-American, but I just find it ironic that we have similar problems in this country but demand other countries follow a higher standard. Again, I understand many of these countries have governments way more corrupt than ours, and some practice genocide and terrorism. I'm just simply commenting on the irony though, and not trying to make America an exact reflection of countries such as Bosnia, or Iraq, or Libya, or Rwanda, North Korea, or even Mexico. I do respectively disagree that discrimination and inequality are not caused, or at least supported, by political systems . Not only did the majority of public opinion support racism in this country, but the Jim Crowe laws, as established by our government in the late 1800's and lasting until the 1960's, made certain behavior legal and placed rigid definitions forming a legal precedence for "separate but equal." Our own government passed legislation openly supporting segregation. We became an official country at the signing of the Declaration of Independence in 1776, but black men, and any man not owning property, couldn't vote until after the Civil War, which was after 1865. Women couldn't vote until the 1920's. Between the 1920's and early 1970's, it was legal to sterilize poor blacks and whites as well as those with disabilities, and it could be done against a person's will. Our government decided who could and could not procreate based on discriminatory criteria masquerading as an initiative to eliminate those predisposed to promiscuous behavior, poverty or carrying "unwanted" genes. Until 1971, a blind person could be cited, and possibly arrested if walking around without a sighted companion. Until 2011, gays couldn't openly serve in our military; they still can't legally marry in most states or adopt children as a couple. And I know this is off the topic, but those who argue gay marriage will destroy the family unit as we know it, how do heterosexual marriages, of which 50% end in divorce, support the traditional family unit? Anyway, humans aren't perfect and inequality is a sad part of reality, but when governments actively choose to pass discriminatory laws, it doesn't help and it makes this behavior legal and acceptable. So please explain how this, regardless of the form of government, doesn't cause, lead to and perpetuate inequality and discrimination? People can engage in discriminatory behavior, but if the law supports the behavior, there are no consequences; no one changes their mind because a legal precedence exists allowing discrimination as well as perpetuating it. So, that's my long explanation of what was originally a very satirical comment and then some. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 5 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:41:36 -0500 From: Chris Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities Message-ID: <4ebeda21.a26e340a.476b.1283 at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; format=flowed Hi Ashley and Bridgit, Let me point out that although there is still discrimination and inequality in America, it's not, in my opinion, because our "democracy" is flawed; we don't have a democracy! We have a Republic for a system of government, which is different from a Democratic form of government. The difference is that in a true democracy, the country is ruled by the people as a collective, all-powerful group. In other words, it is what some would call "mob rule." This historically has caused riots and chaos, which usually leads to the end of whatever country tried it. As a republic, we have representatives who are sent to represent the people in our government. We then vote for who we think would be best to represent us. So, the discrimination and inequality isn't because of our system of government, in my opinion. Chris From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 02:39:15 2011 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:39:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> <4E251085B19646579FD803601FB34277@Cptr233> <4EBECA62.6080108@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: Hi Greg, In addition to the on-line resources Arielle referred to, I would also like to mention that Microsoft Excel actually has a variety of built-in statistical functions. It doesn't run t-tests or ANOVAs, but it does allow you to look up the p-value of a particular z-score or vice versa. You can also use it to look up critical values on the f or t distribution after inputting the specific degrees of freedom you want. Hope this helps! Katie On 11/12/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Greg, > I found an online table of critical values for the T-statistic at > http://www.jeremymiles.co.uk/misc/tables/t-test.html > That is the most common table you'll use. You can also go to > www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm > and do the following: > 1. Select the third option, "statistical distributions and > interpreting p-vvalues". > 2. Select the second option, "calculate z, f, t, or chi-square from a > probability". > 3. To find the critical value for z, enter your alpha level (it will > usually be .05) in the "probability" box and click "compute z". To > find the critical value for a T-test, enter your alpha level in the > "probability" box as above and your degrees of freedom in the "df" > box, and then click "compute t". > If what you are needing to do is to find the probability for a given z > or t-statistic, go to graphpad as above, select "statistical > distributions and interpreting p-values" as above. Then select the > first option, "calculate p from z, t, f, or chi-square". Enter the z > or t-statistic you have in the relevant box and click "compute p from > z" or "compute p from t" accordingly. The calculator will tell you the > probability. > I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if I misunderstood what you > need to do with the critical value table or if my suggestions don't > work. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/12/11, Icewolf wrote: >> Hello Arielle, >> I am taking an introductory stats course. Do you know of a good online >> source for the critical value table that reads well with JAWS? The one >> in my book is kinda hard to follow. This stats stuff can be confusing. >> I am onto probabilities at the moment now. >> Thanks, >> Greg Wocher >> >> >> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of >> all >> days. >> >> >> On 11/12/2011 12:49 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> As I said, I have taken two undergraduate and two graduate statistics >>> courses. I agree that Braille textbooks are ideal, but I don't think >>> Braille is the only way to learn the material. In fact, due to >>> resource limitations at my university and some philosophical >>> disagreements I had with my DSS office, I never had a Braille stats >>> textbook, and I still did well in the course. For the first course I >>> used E-text, and for the second course I used a recorded book from >>> RFBD (now Learning Ally) on one of those old analog audiocassettes. >>> Believe it or not, I had a better experience with the audio textbook >>> than I did with the E-text, because some formulas and equations don't >>> read properly with JAWS, but the RFBD reader was great at reading >>> formulas and equations and describing diagrams. The secret when using >>> an audio textbook is to take detailed notes, preferably in Braille on >>> a slate or with a refreshable Braille notetaker like a Braille Note or >>> Pac Mate. Copy down all the formulas you hear verbatim, so you can >>> make yourself your own Braille equation book or file to study. Don't >>> worry about proper Nemeth code; the key is to write it down in a way >>> that makes sense to you, and that you can refer back to later. The >>> same notetaking method is invaluable to use in class. In >>> graduate-level stats, the textbook was optional and almost identical >>> to the lecture material. I had a PDF copy of the text, but never read >>> beyond the first chapter. (My sighted boyfriend didn't read the >>> textbook either, and got a better grade in the class than I did :). >>> I did my stats homework assignments on a regular computer in MS-Word, >>> but used my Braille Note as a notepad to copy down data sets and to >>> perform computations. Doing homework assignments on the Braille Note >>> itself is also an option, although making your answers legible to a >>> sighted grader requires some computer Braille knowledge, so I >>> preferred to write my answers on the computer. >>> Regarding an accessible stats calculator: again, I would recommend >>> www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm >>> It will do most introductory stat functions, is completely accessible, >>> and is Web-based, so it can be used on your personal computer without >>> having to purchase software. Despite the name, it is not graphical. In >>> fact, I learned about it when I was a TA for a research methods course >>> and my professor preferred teaching it rather than having our students >>> learn a software application. If you are about to enroll in stats, I >>> would suggest asking your professor if you can use Graphpad instead of >>> whatever software program the rest of the class is using. If you are >>> doing more advanced statistics work or analyzing your own data, you >>> may want to invest in a software program. Both SAS and R are >>> accessible, and R is free. (SPSS is more commonly used, but I have had >>> some accessibility issues with it myself and I have heard conflicting >>> things about whether newer versions are accessible). As a graduate >>> student I got my department to buy and renew my SAS license so I can >>> analyze my data, and I imagine most departments should be able to >>> provide this accommodation especially if you are on a graduate student >>> stipend. >>> Finally, regarding those pesky graphs and diagrams: In my experience, >>> graphs and diagrams are just one tool for understanding statistical >>> concepts. Statistics itself is not a graphical field; performing >>> statistical analyses requires the application of mathematical formulas >>> but not the interpretation of graphs. Stats is taught to sighted >>> students in a graphical way because this is the way many sighted >>> people prefer to learn, but it is just one way of communicating the >>> conceptual knowledge. Some blind students find the graphs helpful, >>> while other blind students prefer to focus on the formulas and the >>> mathematical side of things. Once you get beyond the first month of >>> the course, it is mostly about doing a calculation and seeing if the >>> number you get is greater than or less than another number you find in >>> a table (called the critical value). This is relatively >>> straightforward and requires no graphical information. By all means, >>> though, if you are having trouble following the course or think a >>> graph would be helpful, you should talk to your professor or teaching >>> assistant in their office hours, or hire a tutor. Most professors and >>> TA's would love to get more office-hour visits than they generally get >>> in a semester. >>> Again, I would be happy to talk one-on-one with anybody who is doing >>> statistics or social science research, or to present about techniques >>> for stats and research (including online and library research) at a >>> NABS conference call or breakout session. Some of this stuff is better >>> explained in person, but it is all important and relevant to most >>> blind college students at some point in your career. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 11/8/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>>> I am currently enrolled in a statistics course. My college brailled the >>>> necessary parts of the book that I needed. I could have not done it >>>> without >>>> the book being brailled. So if I were to say the things that will make >>>> you >>>> successful in a statistics course, are: brailled book, accessible >>>> statistic >>>> calculater, and perhaps a tutor that can help you understand the >>>> graphics, >>>> diagrams and the like. I would say, you will need to push your college >>>> or >>>> university to Braille the book. Don't give up, because they will and can >>>> do >>>> it. Mine said they could not, but I made a good case in that it would >>>> help >>>> me understand the materials better. >>>> >>>> Good luck! >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Miranda Morse >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:13 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course >>>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> >>>> For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about >>>> doing that? >>>> >>>> Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone >>>> successfully >>>> used a PDF format for this course. >>>> >>>> Miranda >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 6612 (20111108) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 6612 (20111108) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 04:33:34 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:33:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> <4E251085B19646579FD803601FB34277@Cptr233> <4EBECA62.6080108@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: Katie, Do you know what the specific Excel formula is to compute a critical value? I didn't know Excel could do that, but that could be a useful command for many blind stats students. Of course, I don't recommend that blind students use Excel to do things the sighted students need to do by hand (like computing means and standard deviations) but Excel could be a useful workaround when the sighted students have to look up values in a table, since these tables aren't always fully accessible. Best, Arielle On 11/12/11, Katie Wang wrote: > Hi Greg, > In addition to the on-line resources Arielle referred to, I would also > like to mention that Microsoft Excel actually has a variety of > built-in statistical functions. It doesn't run t-tests or ANOVAs, but > it does allow you to look up the p-value of a particular z-score or > vice versa. You can also use it to look up critical values on the f or > t distribution after inputting the specific degrees of freedom you > want. > Hope this helps! > Katie > > > On 11/12/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Greg, >> I found an online table of critical values for the T-statistic at >> http://www.jeremymiles.co.uk/misc/tables/t-test.html >> That is the most common table you'll use. You can also go to >> www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm >> and do the following: >> 1. Select the third option, "statistical distributions and >> interpreting p-vvalues". >> 2. Select the second option, "calculate z, f, t, or chi-square from a >> probability". >> 3. To find the critical value for z, enter your alpha level (it will >> usually be .05) in the "probability" box and click "compute z". To >> find the critical value for a T-test, enter your alpha level in the >> "probability" box as above and your degrees of freedom in the "df" >> box, and then click "compute t". >> If what you are needing to do is to find the probability for a given z >> or t-statistic, go to graphpad as above, select "statistical >> distributions and interpreting p-values" as above. Then select the >> first option, "calculate p from z, t, f, or chi-square". Enter the z >> or t-statistic you have in the relevant box and click "compute p from >> z" or "compute p from t" accordingly. The calculator will tell you the >> probability. >> I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if I misunderstood what you >> need to do with the critical value table or if my suggestions don't >> work. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/12/11, Icewolf wrote: >>> Hello Arielle, >>> I am taking an introductory stats course. Do you know of a good online >>> source for the critical value table that reads well with JAWS? The one >>> in my book is kinda hard to follow. This stats stuff can be confusing. >>> I am onto probabilities at the moment now. >>> Thanks, >>> Greg Wocher >>> >>> >>> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of >>> all >>> days. >>> >>> >>> On 11/12/2011 12:49 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> As I said, I have taken two undergraduate and two graduate statistics >>>> courses. I agree that Braille textbooks are ideal, but I don't think >>>> Braille is the only way to learn the material. In fact, due to >>>> resource limitations at my university and some philosophical >>>> disagreements I had with my DSS office, I never had a Braille stats >>>> textbook, and I still did well in the course. For the first course I >>>> used E-text, and for the second course I used a recorded book from >>>> RFBD (now Learning Ally) on one of those old analog audiocassettes. >>>> Believe it or not, I had a better experience with the audio textbook >>>> than I did with the E-text, because some formulas and equations don't >>>> read properly with JAWS, but the RFBD reader was great at reading >>>> formulas and equations and describing diagrams. The secret when using >>>> an audio textbook is to take detailed notes, preferably in Braille on >>>> a slate or with a refreshable Braille notetaker like a Braille Note or >>>> Pac Mate. Copy down all the formulas you hear verbatim, so you can >>>> make yourself your own Braille equation book or file to study. Don't >>>> worry about proper Nemeth code; the key is to write it down in a way >>>> that makes sense to you, and that you can refer back to later. The >>>> same notetaking method is invaluable to use in class. In >>>> graduate-level stats, the textbook was optional and almost identical >>>> to the lecture material. I had a PDF copy of the text, but never read >>>> beyond the first chapter. (My sighted boyfriend didn't read the >>>> textbook either, and got a better grade in the class than I did :). >>>> I did my stats homework assignments on a regular computer in MS-Word, >>>> but used my Braille Note as a notepad to copy down data sets and to >>>> perform computations. Doing homework assignments on the Braille Note >>>> itself is also an option, although making your answers legible to a >>>> sighted grader requires some computer Braille knowledge, so I >>>> preferred to write my answers on the computer. >>>> Regarding an accessible stats calculator: again, I would recommend >>>> www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm >>>> It will do most introductory stat functions, is completely accessible, >>>> and is Web-based, so it can be used on your personal computer without >>>> having to purchase software. Despite the name, it is not graphical. In >>>> fact, I learned about it when I was a TA for a research methods course >>>> and my professor preferred teaching it rather than having our students >>>> learn a software application. If you are about to enroll in stats, I >>>> would suggest asking your professor if you can use Graphpad instead of >>>> whatever software program the rest of the class is using. If you are >>>> doing more advanced statistics work or analyzing your own data, you >>>> may want to invest in a software program. Both SAS and R are >>>> accessible, and R is free. (SPSS is more commonly used, but I have had >>>> some accessibility issues with it myself and I have heard conflicting >>>> things about whether newer versions are accessible). As a graduate >>>> student I got my department to buy and renew my SAS license so I can >>>> analyze my data, and I imagine most departments should be able to >>>> provide this accommodation especially if you are on a graduate student >>>> stipend. >>>> Finally, regarding those pesky graphs and diagrams: In my experience, >>>> graphs and diagrams are just one tool for understanding statistical >>>> concepts. Statistics itself is not a graphical field; performing >>>> statistical analyses requires the application of mathematical formulas >>>> but not the interpretation of graphs. Stats is taught to sighted >>>> students in a graphical way because this is the way many sighted >>>> people prefer to learn, but it is just one way of communicating the >>>> conceptual knowledge. Some blind students find the graphs helpful, >>>> while other blind students prefer to focus on the formulas and the >>>> mathematical side of things. Once you get beyond the first month of >>>> the course, it is mostly about doing a calculation and seeing if the >>>> number you get is greater than or less than another number you find in >>>> a table (called the critical value). This is relatively >>>> straightforward and requires no graphical information. By all means, >>>> though, if you are having trouble following the course or think a >>>> graph would be helpful, you should talk to your professor or teaching >>>> assistant in their office hours, or hire a tutor. Most professors and >>>> TA's would love to get more office-hour visits than they generally get >>>> in a semester. >>>> Again, I would be happy to talk one-on-one with anybody who is doing >>>> statistics or social science research, or to present about techniques >>>> for stats and research (including online and library research) at a >>>> NABS conference call or breakout session. Some of this stuff is better >>>> explained in person, but it is all important and relevant to most >>>> blind college students at some point in your career. >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 11/8/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>>>> I am currently enrolled in a statistics course. My college brailled the >>>>> necessary parts of the book that I needed. I could have not done it >>>>> without >>>>> the book being brailled. So if I were to say the things that will make >>>>> you >>>>> successful in a statistics course, are: brailled book, accessible >>>>> statistic >>>>> calculater, and perhaps a tutor that can help you understand the >>>>> graphics, >>>>> diagrams and the like. I would say, you will need to push your college >>>>> or >>>>> university to Braille the book. Don't give up, because they will and >>>>> can >>>>> do >>>>> it. Mine said they could not, but I made a good case in that it would >>>>> help >>>>> me understand the materials better. >>>>> >>>>> Good luck! >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Miranda Morse >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:13 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course >>>>> >>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>> >>>>> For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go >>>>> about >>>>> doing that? >>>>> >>>>> Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone >>>>> successfully >>>>> used a PDF format for this course. >>>>> >>>>> Miranda >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmail.co >>>>> m >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> signature >>>>> database 6612 (20111108) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> signature >>>>> database 6612 (20111108) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 05:16:12 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:16:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter In-Reply-To: <4ebbcf24.271e340a.2d3f.ffff9637@mx.google.com> References: <4ebb5d3b.cabb320a.36e4.ffffc49b@mx.google.com> <4ebbcf24.271e340a.2d3f.ffff9637@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Vejas, Do you know if RoboBraille works with scanned PDF images, or just PDF's that are already readable with JAWS? Unfortunately I suspect this and other online converter sites don't work with scanned PDF's, which are the ones that really need to be converted in order to be accessible. Best, Arielle On 11/10/11, Rania Ismail CMT wrote: > That's neat! Thanks for shareing! > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of vejas > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:12 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter > > Hi. > My computer teacher from CSB told me about an amazing site that > can convert your documents in a matter of minutes! This site > converts PDF files into DOC and TXT files, as well as other > types. > It's called Robo-Braille. Here's what you would want to do to > turn a PDF into a DOC: > 1. Send the e-mail !convert at robobraille.org. For your andbject, > type in doc, then attach the PDF file on to your e-mail. Don't > write anything in the message; just send it. > Soon after (5-minus minutes, on average, I would say), > Robo-Braille will send you the DOC file as an attachment. It's > awesome and requires no upgrades. > I hope you like it and find it handy. > Vejas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From codyjbair at yahoo.com Sun Nov 13 05:25:46 2011 From: codyjbair at yahoo.com (Cody Bair) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:25:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <1321161946.60166.YahooMailClassic@web110714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Microsoft Office AccessI am currently taking a class in college that involves using Microsoft Access 2010. Does anyone know of any books or material that would be helpfull in learning keyboard shortcuts for access and using access with JAWS. Thanks, Cody From missheather at comcast.net Sun Nov 13 07:21:31 2011 From: missheather at comcast.net (Heather Field) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 01:21:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter In-Reply-To: References: <4ebb5d3b.cabb320a.36e4.ffffc49b@mx.google.com><4ebbcf24.271e340a.2d3f.ffff9637@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Robo braille works with any kind of pdf file, image or not. I've used it to convert both types. Best, Heather -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 11:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Hi Vejas, Do you know if RoboBraille works with scanned PDF images, or just PDF's that are already readable with JAWS? Unfortunately I suspect this and other online converter sites don't work with scanned PDF's, which are the ones that really need to be converted in order to be accessible. Best, Arielle On 11/10/11, Rania Ismail CMT wrote: > That's neat! Thanks for shareing! > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of vejas > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:12 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter > > Hi. > My computer teacher from CSB told me about an amazing site that > can convert your documents in a matter of minutes! This site > converts PDF files into DOC and TXT files, as well as other > types. > It's called Robo-Braille. Here's what you would want to do to > turn a PDF into a DOC: > 1. Send the e-mail !convert at robobraille.org. For your andbject, > type in doc, then attach the PDF file on to your e-mail. Don't > write anything in the message; just send it. > Soon after (5-minus minutes, on average, I would say), > Robo-Braille will send you the DOC file as an attachment. It's > awesome and requires no upgrades. > I hope you like it and find it handy. > Vejas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 07:54:12 2011 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:54:12 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? Message-ID: hello everybody, I'm not sure what's up with teh NFB website. I tried to go to it and I got an error page saying, "page not found." this also impacted the NFB newsline (r) web site, and NFB Newsline Online Website as well. If you know when the web sites will be restored please let me know, otherwise, just a heads up for you. Sincerely, Humberto From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 08:22:23 2011 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 01:22:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] for Sean Message-ID: <4ebf7e60.a87a440a.7d22.ffffb466@mx.google.com> Hi, this message is for Sean Whalen. I was wondering if I could do a testimony for the Student Slate in spring. I don't think you'll have the time to put it in the Winter Issue, but I want to do a testimony to how I got to CCB (Colorado Center for the Blind) and how I relocated to Denver and got a spot at Metropolitan State College of Denver. I'd love to share my experiences with the rest of you people too. If it's ok with you, tell me how to do it in a private message. I don't have your e-mail address. BAd me. Anyway, to the rest of you, have a good night. Beth From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Nov 13 10:48:37 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 04:48:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've noticed the same thing. What's the problem? Blessings, Joshua On 11/13/11, Humberto Avila wrote: > hello everybody, > > I'm not sure what's up with teh NFB website. I tried to go to it and I got > an error page saying, "page not found." this also impacted the NFB newsline > (r) web site, and NFB Newsline Online Website as well. > If you know when the web sites will be restored please let me know, > otherwise, just a heads up for you. > > Sincerely, > Humberto > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 15:44:38 2011 From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com (frandi.galindo at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:44:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost Message-ID: Ok, bare with me here for a moment, and excuse my language. When you get lost do you a: call the cops and ask them where you are, and waste money in the process? b: wave down a cop when you don’t know if one is near you? c: wave your hands around and make other blind people look like jak asses in the eyes of an already general populous who think blind people are incapable of doing anything for themselves? d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and ask someone on the street for directions e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. I ask this because I know of someone who was tought to do what a, b, and c say to do. I was tought by two outstanding mobility instructors to do what d says, and tought myself e. I want to know what you all out their think. I personally think that making blind people look like helpless jack asses and wasting money on unesesary calls is pointless. I’m almost sure most mobility instructors would teach their students to do what choice d asks. From isaiah5719 at mchsi.com Sun Nov 13 16:07:24 2011 From: isaiah5719 at mchsi.com (Loren Wakefield) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:07:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would do different things depending on the situation. You need to make the best of your environment. Even if you do not intend to deo so, sometimes you will end up looking like an idiot. But in general, ask directions. When you are lost, this is not dumb to do whether one is blind or sighted. -----Original Message----- From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 9:44 AM To: NFB Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost Ok, bare with me here for a moment, and excuse my language. When you get lost do you a: call the cops and ask them where you are, and waste money in the process? b: wave down a cop when you don’t know if one is near you? c: wave your hands around and make other blind people look like jak asses in the eyes of an already general populous who think blind people are incapable of doing anything for themselves? d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and ask someone on the street for directions e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. I ask this because I know of someone who was tought to do what a, b, and c say to do. I was tought by two outstanding mobility instructors to do what d says, and tought myself e. I want to know what you all out their think. I personally think that making blind people look like helpless jack asses and wasting money on unesesary calls is pointless. I’m almost sure most mobility instructors would teach their students to do what choice d asks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 16:12:01 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:12:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The first thing I do if I'm lost is to see if there are other pedestrians around. If so, I say a polite "Excuse me" and ask them what the street I'm on is (yes, I've strayed so bad that I had no clue what street I was on). Usually they know, and if I recognize the street name I will also ask them what the nearest cross-street is. That will often get me unlost. If this doesn't work, I will go into a business to get directions. I'll ask them their address and what the closest cross street is, and if I'm way off cross I'll ask where the closest bus stop is, since I know that by taking the bus to Moore Square, I'll be instantaneously unlost (I do this only if I'm way off course and it would take forever to get unlost). Pedestrians and businesses are definitely your friend, but what if you're in a residential area with neither of these? I've found myself in this situation. In this case, I flag down a car as I hear it coming up to me and ask the driver. I don't accept a ride from that person, but do ask them the nearest cross street and if they know where such-and-such is from where I am. Hope that helps, Jewel On 11/13/11, frandi.galindo at gmail.com wrote: > Ok, bare with me here for a moment, and excuse my language. > When you get lost do you > a: call the cops and ask them where you are, and waste money in the process? > b: wave down a cop when you don’t know if one is near you? > c: wave your hands around and make other blind people look like jak asses in > the eyes of an already general populous who think blind people are incapable > of doing anything for themselves? > d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and > ask someone on the street for directions > e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. > I ask this because I know of someone who was tought to do what a, b, and c > say to do. I was tought by two outstanding mobility instructors to do what > d says, and tought myself e. I want to know what you all out their think. > I personally think that making blind people look like helpless jack asses > and wasting money on unesesary calls is pointless. I’m almost sure most > mobility instructors would teach their students to do what choice d asks. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 16:44:50 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:44:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] IPod touches Message-ID: <4ebff424.2959340a.44d5.602f@mx.google.com> Hi Nimer, Oh no, not Talkback! That's why I like VoiceOver; TalkBack only reads certain things, where VoiceOver is more like JAWS, in that it reads everything unless something isn't accessible. Please tell me you're using MobileSpeak or Mobile Accessibility or one of those Code Factory screen readers for Android! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Nimer M. Jaber, IC³ wrote: Gotta agree Beth! Especially with i o s 5, awesome! Sent from my iPod Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com Skype: joshgregory93 On Nov 3, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Sam Hogle wrote: I agree when it comes to wanting more than just music. I already have a Victor Streem and a Milestone, so I'm fine in the music department. My main reason for wanting one is because I've heard that there are a lot of useful aps for it. Plus, the idea of having internet on something way smaller than a computer without having to pay a data plan like you do on a phone is pretty nice. On 11/3/2011 10:05 PM, Beth wrote: I looooooooooove my iPod touch. I can't get enogh of it. The App store is easy to use and the tabs are right there, so I just type in what I want and it brings up the results. I like doing more with my iPod than just listen to music. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: josh gregory wrote: Hello all. I went to the store today to look at the IPod touch. I'm most likely going to get one, but I wanted to get feedback from others who have used voice over on them first. Since we are all students, I'm guessing most of us are pretty familiar with our technology. So, I was wondering if any of you had used one, and what you thought when it came to how hard it was to learn and how useful you found it. Sam _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo se%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%4 0gmail.com -- Nimer M. Jaber The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email from your computer. Registered Linux User 529141. http://counter.li.org/ Vinux testing and documentation coordinator To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: http://nimertech.blogspot.com Phone: (720) (251-4530) Please reply to this email to contact me. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 16:44:52 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:44:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Message-ID: <4ebff426.2959340a.44d5.6031@mx.google.com> Hi Nicole, As to the mobile site being an alternative with a screen reader, yes, yes, and yes!!!!! m.facebook.com is totally accessible and is great to use! I'm thinking about doing a podcast soon on using Mobile Facebook, so I'll let you know when I've done that. In the mean time, try it out, it's great! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" References: Message-ID: <995F8FC118404CE2ABF6B32ACF1F2699@OwnerPC> no, call the cops as a last resort. I'd say only call after you have tried getting other help from pedestrians and business people and if you feel unsafe. Ask someone for directions; go to a store if you have to. -----Original Message----- From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:44 AM To: NFB Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost Ok, bare with me here for a moment, and excuse my language. When you get lost do you a: call the cops and ask them where you are, and waste money in the process? b: wave down a cop when you don’t know if one is near you? c: wave your hands around and make other blind people look like jak asses in the eyes of an already general populous who think blind people are incapable of doing anything for themselves? d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and ask someone on the street for directions e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. I ask this because I know of someone who was tought to do what a, b, and c say to do. I was tought by two outstanding mobility instructors to do what d says, and tought myself e. I want to know what you all out their think. I personally think that making blind people look like helpless jack asses and wasting money on unesesary calls is pointless. I’m almost sure most mobility instructors would teach their students to do what choice d asks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From brlsurfer at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 17:33:37 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:33:37 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Message-ID: <4ebfff88.c2c5e70a.53bb.ffffdc82@mx.google.com> Sorry, I'm not quite sure but you can try using the directions I gave you. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman wrote: That's neat! Thanks for shareing! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of vejas Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Hi. My computer teacher from CSB told me about an amazing site that can convert your documents in a matter of minutes! This site converts PDF files into DOC and TXT files, as well as other types. It's called Robo-Braille. Here's what you would want to do to turn a PDF into a DOC: 1. Send the e-mail !convert at robobraille.org. For your andbject, type in doc, then attach the PDF file on to your e-mail. Don't write anything in the message; just send it. Soon after (5-minus minutes, on average, I would say), Robo-Braille will send you the DOC file as an attachment. It's awesome and requires no upgrades. I hope you like it and find it handy. Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g mail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 17:42:47 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:42:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4ec001b9.4723340a.7667.63c5@mx.google.com> Dave, I totally agree! That's why throughout this thread I have been emphasizing the need for us to educate the ignorant public. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews Hi=20Hai, This=20was=20interesting!=20Although,=20it=20might=20be=20a=20little=20off-= topic=20 for=20this=20list.=20=20However,=20I=20can=20see=20the=20benefits=20of=20pr= ograms=20like=20 Youth=20Slam=20in=20changing=20these=20statistics=20for=20blind=20students.= =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Hai=20Nguyen=20Ly=20 Hi Brice, I've found that the regular site just is laid out weirdly which I think makes it confusing to read and navigate. Maybe that's because I'm more used to the Mobile Facebook site, but I still think even if the regular site is accessible, the mobile site is more usable! ----- Original Message ----- From: Brice Smith wrote: I definitely agree with Rania. I'm sure there are more options and such on the regular facebook site, but I find the mobile one very accessible :) -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular site as a jaws user. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Excuse me if this is off topic. If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou s%40suddenl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 9%40gmail.com -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Nov 13 17:52:10 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:52:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1321161946.60166.YahooMailClassic@web110714.mail.gq1.yahoo .com> References: <1321161946.60166.YahooMailClassic@web110714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Microsoft has keyboard references on its web site, try www.microsoft.com/accessibility Dave At 11:25 PM 11/12/2011, you wrote: >Microsoft Office AccessI am currently taking a class in college that >involves using Microsoft Access 2010. Does anyone know of any books >or material that would be helpfull in learning keyboard shortcuts >for access and using access with JAWS. >Thanks, >Cody From dandrews at visi.com Sun Nov 13 17:52:54 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:52:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They were moving servers yesterday -- is should be back. Dave At 01:54 AM 11/13/2011, you wrote: >hello everybody, > >I'm not sure what's up with teh NFB website. I tried to go to it and I got >an error page saying, "page not found." this also impacted the NFB newsline >(r) web site, and NFB Newsline Online Website as well. >If you know when the web sites will be restored please let me know, >otherwise, just a heads up for you. > >Sincerely, >Humberto From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:00:31 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:00:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4ec005e1.2959340a.44d5.6741@mx.google.com> Hi Jedi, Your idea sounds like a good one. I would contact Dr. Maurer about this idea, by sending an email to officeofthepresident at nfb.org to see if he would be interested in starting these groups on a national level. However, you could probably start this first in your affiliate and/or chapter, so I would contact your affiliate and/or chapter President about this. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Jedi References: <4ec001e6.4723340a.7667.63de@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, I thought this was a great article. it shows how there is a lack of interest in these fields for the typical student. As blind students, we most likely face double the difficulty when pursuing an interest in the STEM fields, and in addition, we generally don't have the support structures that sighted students have when dealing with such difficulties. Alex On 11/13/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Hai, > > This was interesting! Although, it might be a little off-topic > for this list. However, I can see the benefits of programs like > Youth Slam in changing these statistics for blind students. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hai Nguyen Ly To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:56:12 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s > Just So Darn Hard) - NYTimes.com > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-ma > jors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?_r=1&pagewanted > =all > > Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard) > > LAST FALL, President Obama threw what was billed as the first > White House Science Fair, a photo op in the gilt-mirrored State > Dining Room. He tested a steering wheel designed by middle > schoolers to detect distracted driving and peeked inside a robot > that plays soccer. It was meant as an inspirational moment: > children, science is fun; work harder. > > Politicians and educators have been wringing their hands for > years over test scores showing American students falling behind > their counterparts in Slovenia and Singapore. How will the > United States stack up against global rivals in innovation? The > president and industry groups have called on colleges to graduate > 10,000 more engineers a year and 100,000 new teachers with majors > in STEM — science, technology, engineering and math. All the > Sputnik-like urgency has put classrooms from kindergarten through > 12th grade — the pipeline, as they call it — under a microscope. > And there are encouraging signs, with surveys showing the number > of college freshmen interested in majoring in a STEM field on the > rise. > > But, it turns out, middle and high school students are having > most of the fun, building their erector sets and dropping eggs > into water to test the first law of motion. The excitement > quickly fades as students brush up against the reality of what > David E. Goldberg, an emeritus engineering professor, calls “the > math-science death march.” Freshmen in college wade through a > blizzard of calculus, physics and chemistry in lecture halls with > hundreds of other students. And then many wash out. > > Studies have found that roughly 40 percent of students planning > engineering and science majors end up switching to other subjects > or failing to get any degree. That increases to as much as 60 > percent when pre-medical students, who typically have the > strongest SAT scores and high school science preparation, are > included, according to new data from the University of California > at Los Angeles. That is twice the combined attrition rate of all > other majors. > > For educators, the big question is how to keep the momentum being > built in the lower grades from dissipating once the students get > to college. > > “We’re losing an alarming proportion of our nation’s science > talent once the students get to college,” says Mitchell J. > Chang, an education professor at U.C.L.A. who has studied the > matter. “It’s not just a K-12 preparation issue.” > > Professor Chang says that rather than losing mainly students from > disadvantaged backgrounds or with lackluster records, the > attrition rate can be higher at the most selective schools, where > he believes the competition overwhelms even well-qualified > students. > > “You’d like to think that since these institutions are getting > the best students, the students who go there would have the best > chances to succeed,” he says. “But if you take two students who > have the same high school grade-point average and SAT scores, and > you put one in a highly selective school like Berkeley and the > other in a school with lower average scores like Cal State, that > Berkeley student is at least 13 percent less likely than the one > at Cal State to finish a STEM degree.” > > The bulk of attrition comes in engineering and among pre-med > majors, who typically leave STEM fields if their hopes for > medical school fade. There is no doubt that the main majors are > difficult and growing more complex. Some students still lack > math preparation or aren’t willing to work hard enough. > > Other deterrents are the tough freshman classes, typically > followed by two years of fairly abstract courses leading to a > senior research or design project. “It’s dry and hard to get > through, so if you can create an oasis in there, it would be a > good thing,” says Dr. Goldberg, who retired last year as an > engineering professor at the University of Illinois at > Urbana-Champaign and is now an education consultant. He thinks > the president’s chances of getting his 10,000 engineers is > “essentially nil.” > > In September, the Association of American Universities, which > represents 61 of the largest research institutions, announced a > five-year initiative to encourage faculty members in the STEM > fields to use more interactive teaching techniques. > > “There is a long way to go,” says Hunter R. Rawlings, the > association’s president, “and there is an urgent need to > accelerate the process of reform.” > > The latest research also suggests that there could be more subtle > problems at work, like the proliferation of grade inflation in > the humanities and social sciences, which provides another > incentive for students to leave STEM majors. It is no surprise > that grades are lower in math and science, where the answers are > clear-cut and there are no bonus points for flair. Professors > also say they are strict because science and engineering courses > build on one another, and a student who fails to absorb the key > lessons in one class will flounder in the next. > > After studying nearly a decade of transcripts at one college, > Kevin Rask, a professor at Wake Forest University, concluded last > year that the grades in the introductory math and science classes > were among the lowest on campus.. The chemistry department gave > the lowest grades over all, averaging 2.78 out of 4, followed by > mathematics at 2.90. Education, language and English courses had > the highest averages, ranging from 3.33 to 3.36. > > Ben Ost, a doctoral student at Cornell, found in a similar study > that STEM students are both “pulled away” by high grades in their > courses in other fields and “pushed out” by lower grades in their > majors. > > MATTHEW MONIZ bailed out of engineering at Notre Dame in the fall > of his sophomore year. He had been the kind of recruit most > engineering departments dream about. He had scored an 800 in > math on the SAT and in the 700s in both reading and writing. He > also had taken Calculus BC and five other Advanced Placement > courses at a prep school in Washington, D.C., and had long > planned to major in engineering. > > But as Mr. Moniz sat in his mechanics class in 2009, he realized > he had already had enough. “I was trying to memorize equations, > and engineering’s all about the application, which they really > didn’t teach too well,” he says. “It was just like, ‘Do these > practice problems, then you’re on your own.’ ” And as he looked > ahead at the curriculum, he did not see much relief on the > horizon. > > So Mr. Moniz, a 21-year-old who likes poetry and had enjoyed > introductory psychology, switched to a double major in psychology > and English, where the classes are “a lot more discussion based.” > He will graduate in May and plans to be a clinical psychologist. > Of his four freshman buddies at Notre Dame, one switched to > business, another to music. One of the two who is still in > engineering plans to work in finance after graduation. > > Mr. Moniz’s experience illustrates how some of the best-prepared > students find engineering education too narrow and lacking the > passion of other fields. They also see easier ways to make > money. > > Notre Dame’s engineering dean, Peter Kilpatrick, will be the > first to concede that sophomore and junior years, which focus > mainly on theory, remain a “weak link” in technical education. > He says his engineering school has gradually improved its > retention rate over the past decade by creating design projects > for freshmen and breaking “a deadly lecture” for 400 students > into groups of 80. Only 50 to 55 percent of the school’s > students stayed through graduation 10 years ago. But that figure > now tops 75 percent, he says, and efforts to create more labs in > the middle years could help raise it further. > > “We’re two years into that experiment and, quite honestly, it’s > probably going to take 5 to 10 years before we’re really able to > inflesh the whole curriculum with this project-based learning,” > Dean Kilpatrick says. > > No one doubts that students need a strong theoretical foundation. > But what frustrates education experts is how long it has taken > for most schools to make changes. > > The National Science Board, a public advisory body, warned in the > mid-1980s that students were losing sight of why they wanted to > be scientists and engineers in the first place. Research > confirmed in the 1990s that students learn more by grappling with > open-ended problems, like creating a computer game or designing > an alternative energy system, than listening to lectures. While > the National Science Foundation went on to finance pilot courses > that employed interactive projects, when the money dried up, so > did most of the courses. Lecture classes are far cheaper to > produce, and top professors are focused on bringing in research > grants, not teaching undergraduates. > > In 2005, the National Academy of Engineering concluded that > “scattered interventions” had not resulted in widespread change. > “Treating the freshman year as a ‘sink or swim’ experience and > accepting attrition as inevitable,” it said, “is both unfair to > students and wasteful of resources and faculty time.” > > Since becoming Notre Dame’s dean in 2008, Dr. Kilpatrick has > revamped and expanded a freshman design course that had gotten “a > little bit stale.” The students now do four projects. They build > Lego robots and design bridges capable of carrying heavy loads at > minimal cost. They also create electronic circuit boards and > dream up a project of their own. > > “They learn how to work with their hands, how to program the > robot and how to work with design constraints,” he says. But he > also says it’s inevitable that students will be lost. Some new > students do not have a good feel for how deeply technical > engineering is. Other bright students may have breezed through > high school without developing disciplined habits. By contrast, > students in China and India focus relentlessly on math and > science from an early age. > > “We’re in a worldwide competition, and we’ve got to retain as > many of our students as we can,” Dean Kirkpatrick says. “But > we’re not doing kids a favor if we’re not teaching them good life > and study skills.” > > WORCESTER POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE, in Massachusetts, one of the > nation’s oldest technological schools, has taken the idea of > projects to heart. While it still expects students to push their > way through standard engineering and science classes, it ripped > up its traditional curriculum in the 1970s to make room for > extensive research, design and social-service projects by juniors > and seniors, including many conducted on trips with professors > overseas. In 2007, it added optional first-year projects — which > a quarter of its freshmen do — focused on world problems like > hunger or disease. > > “That kind of early engagement, and letting them see they can > work on something that is interesting and important, is a big > deal,” says Arthur C. Heinricher, the dean of undergraduate > studies. “That hooks students.” > > And so late this past summer, about 90 freshmen received e-mails > asking if they typically received flu vaccines. The e-mails were > not from the health services office, but from students measuring > how widely flu spreads at different rates of vaccination. Two of > the students had spent part of their freshmen year researching > diseases and devising a survey. Now, as juniors, they were > recruiting the newcomers to take part in simulations, using neon > wristbands and stickers, to track how many of them became > “infected” as they mingled during orientation. > > Brenna Pugliese, one of the juniors and a biology major, says the > two-day exercise raised awareness on campus of the need for more > students to get the vaccine. “I can honestly say that I learned > more about various biology topics than I ever learned in any > other class,” she says. > > Teachers say they have been surprised by the sophistication of > some of the freshmen projects, like a device to harvest kinetic > energy that is now being patented. But the main goals are to > enable students to work closely with faculty members, build > confidence and promote teamwork. Studies have shown that women, > in particular, want to see their schoolwork is connected to > helping people, and the projects help them feel more comfortable > in STEM fields, where men far outnumber women everywhere except > in biology. > > Seventy-four percent of W.P.I. undergraduates earn bachelor’s > degrees within four years and 80 percent by six years. > > Most of the top state research universities have added at least a > splash of design work in the freshman year. The University of > Illinois began this fall to require freshmen engineering students > to take a course on aspirations for the profession and encourages > them to do a design project or take a leadership seminar. Most > technical schools push students to seek summer internships and > take semesters off to gain practical work experiences. The hope > is that the lure of high-paying jobs during an economic downturn > will convince more students to stick with it. > > Some private schools have also adjusted their grading policies to > ease some of the pressure on STEM students. The Massachusetts > Institute of Technology has long given freshmen only “pass” or > “no record” grades in the first half of the year while they get > used to the workload. W.P.I. lets undergraduates take up to > three classes for which no grade is recorded if they would have > received less than a C. Any required courses would have to be > repeated. > > Ilea Graedel, a 20-year-old junior in aerospace engineering, says > that policy provides “a nice buffer if you want to try something > new, like a class outside your comfort zone.” > > But what really helps Ms. Graedel get through the rigors of > STEM, she says, is hanging onto her aspirations. She grew up in > a farming area in Washington State, the only student from her > high school class of 26 pursuing a technology degree. She has > wanted to be an astronaut since she was 3, when her mother took > her to Boeing’s Museum of Flight in Seattle and bought her a book > called “I Want to Be an Astronaut.” > > The space program has been sharply cut back. Still, she says, > “I’m going to hold onto that dream very dearly.” > > > Christopher Drew covers military technology for The Times. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 19:19:59 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:19:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4ec01882.4723340a.7667.6c48@mx.google.com> Hi Joshua and everyone, I am in 8th grade and am mainstreamed in the public school system here in Carroll County, Maryland. I'm also an anchor on my school's TV-LIKE morning announcements program. So, one day during Meet the Blind Month when I was on the program as an anchor, I made an announcement on the air regarding Meet the Blind Month and its purpose, to "educate the sighted public about the truth about blindness, and our real capabilities." I also encouraged them to ask me any questions they had about blindness, no matter what it was. I wouldn't be offended. I closed the announcement with a slogan that my TVI thought up; "I encourage all of you to open your mind and meet the blind!" This has started a great opportunity for me to educate my peers, and for them to openly ask me questions. My family and I also do a program for my teachers each year, in which we do a blindness simulations where the teachers have to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich blindfolded. This also helps them get an glimpse into my world, if you will. I'd love to hear what you guys did for Meet the Blind Month, if anything! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, psychologists have identified specific factors in the social environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable as whites if the social environment supports their success. We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind people function requires some creative thinking and mental flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on board for the environmental modifications we need to be equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes will give us equal opportunity. Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. Best, Arielle On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: David, With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those of us whom such logic doesn't work for? I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else go nuts. *grin* Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I hope the analogy is not too remote. My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change to happen and take the steps to start it. Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. anyone with me? The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we could come up with some crazy way to get it going. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: Arielle: I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! Dave At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind people to think about. Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority groups in this country historically and in the present. More than that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination against other minority groups. Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I said about you being blind was very different from what you said about my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference here? I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get members of the public to see this? Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? I look forward to the discussion. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi %40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From amylsabo at comcast.net Sun Nov 13 19:55:36 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:55:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1321161946.60166.YahooMailClassic@web110714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1321161946.60166.YahooMailClassic@web110714.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005101cca23e$36218420$a2648c60$@comcast.net> Hello koby, As for your question on using ms office 2010 access with jfw and by using the shortkeys. Well, I have never used access at all. Have you tried using the help menu in ms office access in which I believe it has shortkeys for keyboard use that you can use with jfw? Anyway, I wish that I could help you more. Take care and good luck with your class! Hugs, Amy sabo -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cody Bair Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 10:26 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Microsoft Office AccessI am currently taking a class in college that involves using Microsoft Access 2010. Does anyone know of any books or material that would be helpfull in learning keyboard shortcuts for access and using access with JAWS. Thanks, Cody _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 20:04:16 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:04:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minority groups Message-ID: <4ec022e3.4a5a340a.186c.6c18@mx.google.com> Count me in too, Jedi! I would, as I said in an earlier email, contact Dr. Maurer about setting this up as a national program. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter From past experience, we know the nonblind world isn't going to encourage and stimulate the type of equality we are not only capable of but deserving. Though they may think they have our best interest in mind, past experience shows we didn't always fare well from these "good intentions." This is not to say non-blind people can't learn and grow and be active, vital parts of our collective, but we must be the leaders. This means we don't sit back when encountering ignorant mindsets, but actively work to change those mindsets even in casual encounters. I don't believe Dave meant to imply sighted people have no ill will so therefore we do nothing, but simply reminding us that, though misinformed and misguided, most sighted people just have no clue that what they do and say can be insulting, demeaning or just plain ignorant. We should handle situations with grace and diplomacy, but there's nothing wrong with taking the opportunity to inform and educate when people give us an open shot with ignorant slips. Think of it as Providince giving us a sign to open up a round of dialogue! Smile. Count me in, Jedi, to assist in forming some cohesive collaborations teaching us to better communicate. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 2 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:05:54 -0400 From: Jedi Hi David, I just checked the site, and it STILL says "the page cannot be displayed" when I select the "click here to download or listen to past NABS presentations" link. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: David Dunphy From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:11:20 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:11:20 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <4ec01882.4723340a.7667.6c48@mx.google.com> References: <4ec01882.4723340a.7667.6c48@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3DBD505206AB47D99D2D1C6860C3363D@userPC> Hi Chris, I really like your idea. I think that also shows your teachers how you do things independently! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Hi Joshua and everyone, I am in 8th grade and am mainstreamed in the public school system here in Carroll County, Maryland. I'm also an anchor on my school's TV-LIKE morning announcements program. So, one day during Meet the Blind Month when I was on the program as an anchor, I made an announcement on the air regarding Meet the Blind Month and its purpose, to "educate the sighted public about the truth about blindness, and our real capabilities." I also encouraged them to ask me any questions they had about blindness, no matter what it was. I wouldn't be offended. I closed the announcement with a slogan that my TVI thought up; "I encourage all of you to open your mind and meet the blind!" This has started a great opportunity for me to educate my peers, and for them to openly ask me questions. My family and I also do a program for my teachers each year, in which we do a blindness simulations where the teachers have to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich blindfolded. This also helps them get an glimpse into my world, if you will. I'd love to hear what you guys did for Meet the Blind Month, if anything! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, psychologists have identified specific factors in the social environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable as whites if the social environment supports their success. We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind people function requires some creative thinking and mental flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on board for the environmental modifications we need to be equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes will give us equal opportunity. Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. Best, Arielle On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: David, With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those of us whom such logic doesn't work for? I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else go nuts. *grin* Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I hope the analogy is not too remote. My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change to happen and take the steps to start it. Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. anyone with me? The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we could come up with some crazy way to get it going. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: Arielle: I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! Dave At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind people to think about. Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority groups in this country historically and in the present. More than that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination against other minority groups. Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I said about you being blind was very different from what you said about my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference here? I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get members of the public to see this? Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? I look forward to the discussion. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi %40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 20:33:38 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:33:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <3DBD505206AB47D99D2D1C6860C3363D@userPC> References: <4ec01882.4723340a.7667.6c48@mx.google.com> <3DBD505206AB47D99D2D1C6860C3363D@userPC> Message-ID: Chris, Sounds like you did some of the things that I used to do when I was in grade school and high school. My TVI and I always used to do a little mini-lesson for my class when I was in grade school. We would teach them Braille and sighted (or human) guide, and let them ask me any questions that they had. When I hit high school, there was a psychology teacher who always had me come and present to her classes when they were doing their unit on senses and perception. It was a really great opportunity. I too always met with teachers in advance and showed them how all the technology I had worked. And inevitably, one teacher would always ask: "Do I have to learn Braille?" To which I always responded: "Only if you're interested in learning it!" Patrick On 11/13/11, Rania Ismail CMT wrote: > Hi Chris, I really like your idea. I think that also shows your teachers how > you do things independently! > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:20 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > Hi Joshua and everyone, > > I am in 8th grade and am mainstreamed in the public school system > here in Carroll County, Maryland. I'm also an anchor on my > school's TV-LIKE morning announcements program. So, one day > during Meet the Blind Month when I was on the program as an > anchor, I made an announcement on the air regarding Meet the > Blind Month and its purpose, to "educate the sighted public about > the truth about blindness, and our real capabilities." I also > encouraged them to ask me any questions they had about blindness, > no matter what it was. I wouldn't be offended. I closed the > announcement with a slogan that my TVI thought up; "I encourage > all of you to open your mind and meet the blind!" This has > started a great opportunity for me to educate my peers, and for > them to openly ask me questions. My family and I also do a > program for my teachers each year, in which we do a blindness > simulations where the teachers have to make a peanut butter and > jelly sandwich blindfolded. This also helps them get an glimpse > into my world, if you will. I'd love to hear what you guys did > for Meet the Blind Month, if anything! > > Chris > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:59:21 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > I actually did a presentation at my college, for "Meet the > Blind," > month where I showed everyone how to guide a blind person, and I > taught them the blindness courtesy rules, from the NFB. > I'd encourage all students here, to ask if you can do the same > thing, > at your colleges. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/4/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this > discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it > important. > As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when > African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than > white > Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement > called "race > science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and > link it > to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this > belief has > been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, > psychologists have identified specific factors in the social > environment that can lead to racial differences in performance > on > standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in > intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes > worded > in a biased fashion to favor people from white American > backgrounds, > and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to > perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. > Because > African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this > stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. > As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the > sighted > public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, > about the > inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of > ability we > have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the > social > environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack > of > instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of > accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from > the > condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our > lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the > majority > of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally > successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social > conditions, just like most people (at least most educated > people) now > understand that African Americans are just as intellectually > capable > as whites if the social environment supports their success. > We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will > be > difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some > sighted > people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that > in our > culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and > people > assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains > why > literature geared toward parents of blind children often > highlights > the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned > visually, > and it explains why blindness professionals are often so > unwilling to > teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. > People > have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus > some > mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs > about > the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often > unconscious, > and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because > these > beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how > blind > people function requires some creative thinking and mental > flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess > or are > willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people > on > board for the environmental modifications we need to be > equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these > changes > will give us equal opportunity. > Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start > standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often > conditioned to > accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant > behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem > is > that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be > misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to > other > minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or > outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an > illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this > kindness > is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of > really > being given proper attention. For example, when I was a > teenager, I > often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well > and > would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or > manhandled > me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of > me as a > b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing > their > behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So > I > definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly > and > directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a > way > that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I > would be > interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you > mention. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: > David, > > With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that > rewards us > for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. > When we > say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we > somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the > message > which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," > or > ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what > about those > of us whom such logic doesn't work for? > > I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just > don't > know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse > because I > started to think that there was something wrong with me for > feeling > upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. > I > started questioning the validity of my own experience as the > person to > whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed > upon. > Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking > or else > go nuts. *grin* > > Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is > that > what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be > malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred > years or > so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue > to do so > until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're > harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as > anything. I > hope the analogy is not too remote. > > My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the > sighted > when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish > to be > treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the > rest of > the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with > the > sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, > and > that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, > to a > large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high > unemployment rate, > why we experience discrimination in our recreational and > personal > lives, and why the public still largely considers us a > non-entity in a > lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example > of this). > > Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I > think we > can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to > develop > excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the > sighted > thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first > step is > realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that > change > to happen and take the steps to start it. > > Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I > think we > need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I > realize we > still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they > are out > of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that > have > cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need > fresher > faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current > generation because that's who will be reading these stories on > the > sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel > books. > anyone with me? > > The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves > how to > communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i > talked > about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through > education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways > of > going about it and there are some amazing groups and > institutions who > specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their > experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, > the > Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the > Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can > help > groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more > effectively; > we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB > convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out > with; > maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. > Alternatively, the > Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to > train > as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around > from > affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these > encounter > groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a > group of > people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and > can do > so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. > > Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some > time, > and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm > going to > need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in > hearing from > anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think > we > could come up with some crazy way to get it going. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > Arielle: > > I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the > biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of > the > blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they > could > do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- > which > they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. > > I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! > > Dave > > At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, > but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as > blind > people to think about. > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced > by the > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other > minority > groups in this country historically and in the present. More > than > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us > as a > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It > has > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us > in > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering > that > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination > against other minority groups. > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the > Blind, Jim > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center > and a > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so > well, > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, > Mr. > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a > philosophy > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You > are such > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, > what I > said about you being blind was very different from what you said > about > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, > so > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To > me this > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to > a > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a > difference > here? > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views > about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless > have no > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like > saying blind > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that > blind > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, > etc. > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't > understand > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members > will > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. > They think > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I > don't > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a > collective. > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that > they > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the > protests > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many > people > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could > do-and yet > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in > our > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed > that the > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a > survey > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet > would > never say such things directly about another minority group-in > fact, > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit > their > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more > accurate > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination > against > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such > a > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the > same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's > awareness? Do > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other > minorities > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do > we get > members of the public to see this? > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are > "dual > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in > this > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, > uncommon > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > I look forward to the discussion. > Best, > Arielle > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi > %40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 13 20:42:29 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:42:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <4ec01882.4723340a.7667.6c48@mx.google.com> References: <4ec01882.4723340a.7667.6c48@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8472FE460AEA4ED4A7C677433D154DAA@OwnerPC> Chris, good idea; glad you told them your're open to questions. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Hi Joshua and everyone, I am in 8th grade and am mainstreamed in the public school system here in Carroll County, Maryland. I'm also an anchor on my school's TV-LIKE morning announcements program. So, one day during Meet the Blind Month when I was on the program as an anchor, I made an announcement on the air regarding Meet the Blind Month and its purpose, to "educate the sighted public about the truth about blindness, and our real capabilities." I also encouraged them to ask me any questions they had about blindness, no matter what it was. I wouldn't be offended. I closed the announcement with a slogan that my TVI thought up; "I encourage all of you to open your mind and meet the blind!" This has started a great opportunity for me to educate my peers, and for them to openly ask me questions. My family and I also do a program for my teachers each year, in which we do a blindness simulations where the teachers have to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich blindfolded. This also helps them get an glimpse into my world, if you will. I'd love to hear what you guys did for Meet the Blind Month, if anything! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, psychologists have identified specific factors in the social environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable as whites if the social environment supports their success. We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind people function requires some creative thinking and mental flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on board for the environmental modifications we need to be equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes will give us equal opportunity. Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. Best, Arielle On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: David, With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those of us whom such logic doesn't work for? I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else go nuts. *grin* Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I hope the analogy is not too remote. My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change to happen and take the steps to start it. Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. anyone with me? The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we could come up with some crazy way to get it going. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: Arielle: I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! Dave At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind people to think about. Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority groups in this country historically and in the present. More than that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination against other minority groups. Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I said about you being blind was very different from what you said about my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference here? I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get members of the public to see this? Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? I look forward to the discussion. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi %40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 20:52:08 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:52:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities Message-ID: <4ec02e1b.8763340a.73bd.492c@mx.google.com> Hi everyone, Bridgit, I agree that sighted guide certainly has a time and place. A great speech on this topic is The Nature of Independence, a speech that Dr. Jernigan gave at the national convention in 1993. I encourage everyone to listen to it, it's a great speech and a classic. You can read it from the Speeches and Reports page of the Publications section at nfb.org or you can listen to it in the Audio/Video Center, under Audio, then National Convention Banquet Speeches. I would provide the direct link, but the NFB server must be down at the moment. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter References: <4ebb5d3b.cabb320a.36e4.ffffc49b@mx.google.com><4ebbcf24.271e340a.2d3f.ffff9637@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5D3B0B532FFD48ECAA48CB84F0BD23B5@OwnerPC> Another question. What is the time fram to get it converted from the site? Good resource -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 12:16 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Hi Vejas, Do you know if RoboBraille works with scanned PDF images, or just PDF's that are already readable with JAWS? Unfortunately I suspect this and other online converter sites don't work with scanned PDF's, which are the ones that really need to be converted in order to be accessible. Best, Arielle On 11/10/11, Rania Ismail CMT wrote: > That's neat! Thanks for shareing! > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of vejas > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:12 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter > > Hi. > My computer teacher from CSB told me about an amazing site that > can convert your documents in a matter of minutes! This site > converts PDF files into DOC and TXT files, as well as other > types. > It's called Robo-Braille. Here's what you would want to do to > turn a PDF into a DOC: > 1. Send the e-mail !convert at robobraille.org. For your andbject, > type in doc, then attach the PDF file on to your e-mail. Don't > write anything in the message; just send it. > Soon after (5-minus minutes, on average, I would say), > Robo-Braille will send you the DOC file as an attachment. It's > awesome and requires no upgrades. > I hope you like it and find it handy. > Vejas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 20:52:10 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:52:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] *Hot off the presses* The Student Slate(SpecialFallissue!) Message-ID: <4ec02e1c.8763340a.73bd.492d@mx.google.com> Hi Vejas, I think it would be easier for people to get each issue of the Slate the way I'm suggesting, instead of having to go to the Web site and download it every time. This would also put less pressure on the Web site committee to update the site all the time. By using email, it would be a lot easier for everyone, in my opinion. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: vejas Hi Vejas, By the way, I love that you said "fellow Federationists!" Oh yeah! On a PC, using Gmail's Web interface, you would simply hit Enter on the link and it will open a new browser window with that Web site. On the BrailleNote, if you're reading the email using Keymail, put your cursor under anywhere in the link and hit Enter with dots 2-6. Hope this helps! P.S. For BrailleNote questions, don't forget the BrailleNote list! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: vejas Yes, but as I said in the email replying to Vejas, this slate-only list would take a lot of pressure off the Web site people to update the Slate page before the issue is officially released. Also, the email way would be a lot easier for subscribers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" I agree, Julie! This is what Dr. Maurer means when he uses the phrase "misguided benevolence." ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie McGinnity wrote: Chris, People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude socially speaking. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: Hi Arielle, You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, the difference between the public's stereotyping and discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, especially those members of the public who work directly with us or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; from one generation to their children, then passed on to those children's children, then to their children, and to their children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public directly effect us, as we then become the object of discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not discriminated against for the reason that there were misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple reason that they were different! During this time, I think the majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that all people are different, and that having a different skin color doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a different character than the beliefs which make people discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the misconceptions and discrimination have no justification whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, and the little discrimination that still exists is generally thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype against other people. Those are my thoughts. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman This email was blank and had no subject. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jewel References: <995F8FC118404CE2ABF6B32ACF1F2699@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5F579FC97AA94AD2AC0C6C043A937925@AnjelinaPC> I'd first try to figure out where I was and if I really felt lost I'd find someone to ask. I wouldn't use the first few options unless I was in an emergency situation -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:49 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost no, call the cops as a last resort. I'd say only call after you have tried getting other help from pedestrians and business people and if you feel unsafe. Ask someone for directions; go to a store if you have to. -----Original Message----- From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:44 AM To: NFB Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost Ok, bare with me here for a moment, and excuse my language. When you get lost do you a: call the cops and ask them where you are, and waste money in the process? b: wave down a cop when you don’t know if one is near you? c: wave your hands around and make other blind people look like jak asses in the eyes of an already general populous who think blind people are incapable of doing anything for themselves? d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and ask someone on the street for directions e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. I ask this because I know of someone who was tought to do what a, b, and c say to do. I was tought by two outstanding mobility instructors to do what d says, and tought myself e. I want to know what you all out their think. I personally think that making blind people look like helpless jack asses and wasting money on unesesary calls is pointless. I’m almost sure most mobility instructors would teach their students to do what choice d asks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com Anjelina From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Nov 13 21:12:38 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:12:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] =?utf-8?q?=28It=E2=80=99s_Just_So_Darn_Hard=29_-_NYTimes?= =?utf-8?q?=2Ecom?= Message-ID: 35e90174-c753-4ec7-8870-7d1455d94f3d@samobile.net Alex is right. For the sighted, most math and science classes (even as soon as high school) go from a multi-modality approach to a lecture approach that really only reaches people who excel at listening, watching, and note taking. Even then, these students struggle because they're expected to take in a wealth of information that really hasn't been engaged in their brains to the fullest extent. Since sight is such a strong part of current modalities for lecturing and teaching these days, blind students really are at a disadvantage. What we ought to do is create hands-on and multi-modality curricula for everyone that allows multiple methods for learning the material other than the typical lecturing. I see this problem in non-STEM fields, but the STEM fields really do require so much more intense study to catch all their nuances. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi, I thought this was a great article. it shows how there is a lack > of interest in these fields for the typical student. As blind > students, we most likely face double the difficulty when pursuing an > interest in the STEM fields, and in addition, we generally don't have > the support structures that sighted students have when dealing with > such difficulties. > Alex > On 11/13/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> Hi Hai, >> This was interesting! Although, it might be a little off-topic >> for this list. However, I can see the benefits of programs like >> Youth Slam in changing these statistics for blind students. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Hai Nguyen Ly > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:56:12 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s >> Just So Darn Hard) - NYTimes.com >> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/education/edlife/why-science-ma >> jors-change-their-mind-its-just-so-darn-hard.html?_r=1&pagewanted >> =all >> Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard) >> LAST FALL, President Obama threw what was billed as the first >> White House Science Fair, a photo op in the gilt-mirrored State >> Dining Room. He tested a steering wheel designed by middle >> schoolers to detect distracted driving and peeked inside a robot >> that plays soccer. It was meant as an inspirational moment: >> children, science is fun; work harder. >> Politicians and educators have been wringing their hands for >> years over test scores showing American students falling behind >> their counterparts in Slovenia and Singapore. How will the >> United States stack up against global rivals in innovation? The >> president and industry groups have called on colleges to graduate >> 10,000 more engineers a year and 100,000 new teachers with majors >> in STEM — science, technology, engineering and math. All the >> Sputnik-like urgency has put classrooms from kindergarten through >> 12th grade — the pipeline, as they call it — under a microscope. >> And there are encouraging signs, with surveys showing the number >> of college freshmen interested in majoring in a STEM field on the >> rise. >> But, it turns out, middle and high school students are having >> most of the fun, building their erector sets and dropping eggs >> into water to test the first law of motion. The excitement >> quickly fades as students brush up against the reality of what >> David E. Goldberg, an emeritus engineering professor, calls “the >> math-science death march.” Freshmen in college wade through a >> blizzard of calculus, physics and chemistry in lecture halls with >> hundreds of other students. And then many wash out. >> Studies have found that roughly 40 percent of students planning >> engineering and science majors end up switching to other subjects >> or failing to get any degree. That increases to as much as 60 >> percent when pre-medical students, who typically have the >> strongest SAT scores and high school science preparation, are >> included, according to new data from the University of California >> at Los Angeles. That is twice the combined attrition rate of all >> other majors. >> For educators, the big question is how to keep the momentum being >> built in the lower grades from dissipating once the students get >> to college. >> “We’re losing an alarming proportion of our nation’s science >> talent once the students get to college,” says Mitchell J. >> Chang, an education professor at U.C.L.A. who has studied the >> matter. “It’s not just a K-12 preparation issue.” >> Professor Chang says that rather than losing mainly students from >> disadvantaged backgrounds or with lackluster records, the >> attrition rate can be higher at the most selective schools, where >> he believes the competition overwhelms even well-qualified >> students. >> “You’d like to think that since these institutions are getting >> the best students, the students who go there would have the best >> chances to succeed,” he says. “But if you take two students who >> have the same high school grade-point average and SAT scores, and >> you put one in a highly selective school like Berkeley and the >> other in a school with lower average scores like Cal State, that >> Berkeley student is at least 13 percent less likely than the one >> at Cal State to finish a STEM degree.” >> The bulk of attrition comes in engineering and among pre-med >> majors, who typically leave STEM fields if their hopes for >> medical school fade. There is no doubt that the main majors are >> difficult and growing more complex. Some students still lack >> math preparation or aren’t willing to work hard enough. >> Other deterrents are the tough freshman classes, typically >> followed by two years of fairly abstract courses leading to a >> senior research or design project. “It’s dry and hard to get >> through, so if you can create an oasis in there, it would be a >> good thing,” says Dr. Goldberg, who retired last year as an >> engineering professor at the University of Illinois at >> Urbana-Champaign and is now an education consultant. He thinks >> the president’s chances of getting his 10,000 engineers is >> “essentially nil.” >> In September, the Association of American Universities, which >> represents 61 of the largest research institutions, announced a >> five-year initiative to encourage faculty members in the STEM >> fields to use more interactive teaching techniques. >> “There is a long way to go,” says Hunter R. Rawlings, the >> association’s president, “and there is an urgent need to >> accelerate the process of reform.” >> The latest research also suggests that there could be more subtle >> problems at work, like the proliferation of grade inflation in >> the humanities and social sciences, which provides another >> incentive for students to leave STEM majors. It is no surprise >> that grades are lower in math and science, where the answers are >> clear-cut and there are no bonus points for flair. Professors >> also say they are strict because science and engineering courses >> build on one another, and a student who fails to absorb the key >> lessons in one class will flounder in the next. >> After studying nearly a decade of transcripts at one college, >> Kevin Rask, a professor at Wake Forest University, concluded last >> year that the grades in the introductory math and science classes >> were among the lowest on campus.. The chemistry department gave >> the lowest grades over all, averaging 2.78 out of 4, followed by >> mathematics at 2.90. Education, language and English courses had >> the highest averages, ranging from 3.33 to 3.36. >> Ben Ost, a doctoral student at Cornell, found in a similar study >> that STEM students are both “pulled away” by high grades in their >> courses in other fields and “pushed out” by lower grades in their >> majors. >> MATTHEW MONIZ bailed out of engineering at Notre Dame in the fall >> of his sophomore year. He had been the kind of recruit most >> engineering departments dream about. He had scored an 800 in >> math on the SAT and in the 700s in both reading and writing. He >> also had taken Calculus BC and five other Advanced Placement >> courses at a prep school in Washington, D.C., and had long >> planned to major in engineering. >> But as Mr. Moniz sat in his mechanics class in 2009, he realized >> he had already had enough. “I was trying to memorize equations, >> and engineering’s all about the application, which they really >> didn’t teach too well,” he says. “It was just like, ‘Do these >> practice problems, then you’re on your own.’ ” And as he looked >> ahead at the curriculum, he did not see much relief on the >> horizon. >> So Mr. Moniz, a 21-year-old who likes poetry and had enjoyed >> introductory psychology, switched to a double major in psychology >> and English, where the classes are “a lot more discussion based.” >> He will graduate in May and plans to be a clinical psychologist. >> Of his four freshman buddies at Notre Dame, one switched to >> business, another to music. One of the two who is still in >> engineering plans to work in finance after graduation. >> Mr. Moniz’s experience illustrates how some of the best-prepared >> students find engineering education too narrow and lacking the >> passion of other fields. They also see easier ways to make >> money. >> Notre Dame’s engineering dean, Peter Kilpatrick, will be the >> first to concede that sophomore and junior years, which focus >> mainly on theory, remain a “weak link” in technical education. >> He says his engineering school has gradually improved its >> retention rate over the past decade by creating design projects >> for freshmen and breaking “a deadly lecture” for 400 students >> into groups of 80. Only 50 to 55 percent of the school’s >> students stayed through graduation 10 years ago. But that figure >> now tops 75 percent, he says, and efforts to create more labs in >> the middle years could help raise it further. >> “We’re two years into that experiment and, quite honestly, it’s >> probably going to take 5 to 10 years before we’re really able to >> inflesh the whole curriculum with this project-based learning,” >> Dean Kilpatrick says. >> No one doubts that students need a strong theoretical foundation. >> But what frustrates education experts is how long it has taken >> for most schools to make changes. >> The National Science Board, a public advisory body, warned in the >> mid-1980s that students were losing sight of why they wanted to >> be scientists and engineers in the first place. Research >> confirmed in the 1990s that students learn more by grappling with >> open-ended problems, like creating a computer game or designing >> an alternative energy system, than listening to lectures. While >> the National Science Foundation went on to finance pilot courses >> that employed interactive projects, when the money dried up, so >> did most of the courses. Lecture classes are far cheaper to >> produce, and top professors are focused on bringing in research >> grants, not teaching undergraduates. >> In 2005, the National Academy of Engineering concluded that >> “scattered interventions” had not resulted in widespread change. >> “Treating the freshman year as a ‘sink or swim’ experience and >> accepting attrition as inevitable,” it said, “is both unfair to >> students and wasteful of resources and faculty time.” >> Since becoming Notre Dame’s dean in 2008, Dr. Kilpatrick has >> revamped and expanded a freshman design course that had gotten “a >> little bit stale.” The students now do four projects. They build >> Lego robots and design bridges capable of carrying heavy loads at >> minimal cost. They also create electronic circuit boards and >> dream up a project of their own. >> “They learn how to work with their hands, how to program the >> robot and how to work with design constraints,” he says. But he >> also says it’s inevitable that students will be lost. Some new >> students do not have a good feel for how deeply technical >> engineering is. Other bright students may have breezed through >> high school without developing disciplined habits. By contrast, >> students in China and India focus relentlessly on math and >> science from an early age. >> “We’re in a worldwide competition, and we’ve got to retain as >> many of our students as we can,” Dean Kirkpatrick says. “But >> we’re not doing kids a favor if we’re not teaching them good life >> and study skills.” >> WORCESTER POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE, in Massachusetts, one of the >> nation’s oldest technological schools, has taken the idea of >> projects to heart. While it still expects students to push their >> way through standard engineering and science classes, it ripped >> up its traditional curriculum in the 1970s to make room for >> extensive research, design and social-service projects by juniors >> and seniors, including many conducted on trips with professors >> overseas. In 2007, it added optional first-year projects — which >> a quarter of its freshmen do — focused on world problems like >> hunger or disease. >> “That kind of early engagement, and letting them see they can >> work on something that is interesting and important, is a big >> deal,” says Arthur C. Heinricher, the dean of undergraduate >> studies. “That hooks students.” >> And so late this past summer, about 90 freshmen received e-mails >> asking if they typically received flu vaccines. The e-mails were >> not from the health services office, but from students measuring >> how widely flu spreads at different rates of vaccination. Two of >> the students had spent part of their freshmen year researching >> diseases and devising a survey. Now, as juniors, they were >> recruiting the newcomers to take part in simulations, using neon >> wristbands and stickers, to track how many of them became >> “infected” as they mingled during orientation. >> Brenna Pugliese, one of the juniors and a biology major, says the >> two-day exercise raised awareness on campus of the need for more >> students to get the vaccine. “I can honestly say that I learned >> more about various biology topics than I ever learned in any >> other class,” she says. >> Teachers say they have been surprised by the sophistication of >> some of the freshmen projects, like a device to harvest kinetic >> energy that is now being patented. But the main goals are to >> enable students to work closely with faculty members, build >> confidence and promote teamwork. Studies have shown that women, >> in particular, want to see their schoolwork is connected to >> helping people, and the projects help them feel more comfortable >> in STEM fields, where men far outnumber women everywhere except >> in biology. >> Seventy-four percent of W.P.I. undergraduates earn bachelor’s >> degrees within four years and 80 percent by six years. >> Most of the top state research universities have added at least a >> splash of design work in the freshman year. The University of >> Illinois began this fall to require freshmen engineering students >> to take a course on aspirations for the profession and encourages >> them to do a design project or take a leadership seminar. Most >> technical schools push students to seek summer internships and >> take semesters off to gain practical work experiences. The hope >> is that the lure of high-paying jobs during an economic downturn >> will convince more students to stick with it. >> Some private schools have also adjusted their grading policies to >> ease some of the pressure on STEM students. The Massachusetts >> Institute of Technology has long given freshmen only “pass” or >> “no record” grades in the first half of the year while they get >> used to the workload. W.P.I. lets undergraduates take up to >> three classes for which no grade is recorded if they would have >> received less than a C. Any required courses would have to be >> repeated. >> Ilea Graedel, a 20-year-old junior in aerospace engineering, says >> that policy provides “a nice buffer if you want to try something >> new, like a class outside your comfort zone.” >> But what really helps Ms. Graedel get through the rigors of >> STEM, she says, is hanging onto her aspirations. She grew up in >> a farming area in Washington State, the only student from her >> high school class of 26 pursuing a technology degree. She has >> wanted to be an astronaut since she was 3, when her mother took >> her to Boeing’s Museum of Flight in Seattle and bought her a book >> called “I Want to Be an Astronaut.” >> The space program has been sharply cut back. Still, she says, >> “I’m going to hold onto that dream very dearly.” >> Christopher Drew covers military technology for The Times. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From amylsabo at comcast.net Sun Nov 13 21:17:04 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:17:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight In-Reply-To: <4ec022d1.4a5a340a.186c.6c0e@mx.google.com> References: <4ec022d1.4a5a340a.186c.6c0e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000001cca249$98308250$c89186f0$@comcast.net> Hello david and all, Yes, I too have gone to this site since I recovered from last weekend's nfb of Colorado state convention and, yes there's nothing there on the site either. I thought this was done but, I guess I was wrong just like everyone else was occurred when they go to this site. It must've been due to many bugs in the system or something that has happened who knows... Again, thanks chris for posting this to the list and, hopefully it will get solved soon! Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 1:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Hi David, I just checked the site, and it STILL says "the page cannot be displayed" when I select the "click here to download or listen to past NABS presentations" link. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: David Dunphy From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 13 21:26:21 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:26:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90BB06634C004B4DAB20329C7D4B0E25@OwnerPC> Hi, I wanted to respond now that I have a few more minutes. As I said, usually I try and ask other pedestrians at first. But if I'm confused and stop to think, they will usually approach me first. If not, I pick someone out and ask them. I have some vision and try and ask someone who looks nice; I feel that if they're dressed well, they're probably not on drugs or homeless. So if they have a briefcase or dressed for work, that is good. Or in DC or a town, tourists are approachable, but likely do not know the answer to your question because they are not from the area. So I choose D or E if I'm in an area with people to ask. d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and ask someone on the street for directions e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. These two options sound the best. I was taught to ask questions from my mobility instructors. As one of them said, "your'e not in a forest. There are people around. So, don't be afraid to speak up." I've met many blind people with many different mobility instructors. None of them suggested calling the cops! I really hope that idea is not used much because the last thing we need is cops involved rescuing blind people. I notice that people ask where you're going. Personally, I do not want to reveal that. So I ask questions to re-establish orientation. For instance, what building is over there and point to the right. Or say, What is the next street? What is the next intersection? or What address am I near? Since I usually cannot read signs, having someone tell me what is around helps me get reoriented. But, I wonder something. What if you're traveling in an area with few pedestrians, such as a neighborhood? What would you do then? I suppose you could ask someone if they are pulling into their driveway, but waiting for that could be a while. I think its wise to have a cell phone with you when your out so you can call for information or help. Like in my area, you can call a number to see when the next bus will arrive. We cannot read signs and the bus schedules, so I find this service helpful. You could also call other people you know for directions, or to pick you up if really needed. But, I'd say do not get the cops involved unless you feel lost, you are in an unsafe place, and/or people are doing things to you that make you feel unsafe. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:44 AM To: NFB Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost Ok, bare with me here for a moment, and excuse my language. When you get lost do you a: call the cops and ask them where you are, and waste money in the process? b: wave down a cop when you don’t know if one is near you? c: wave your hands around and make other blind people look like jak asses in the eyes of an already general populous who think blind people are incapable of doing anything for themselves? d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and ask someone on the street for directions e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. I ask this because I know of someone who was tought to do what a, b, and c say to do. I was tought by two outstanding mobility instructors to do what d says, and tought myself e. I want to know what you all out their think. I personally think that making blind people look like helpless jack asses and wasting money on unesesary calls is pointless. I’m almost sure most mobility instructors would teach their students to do what choice d asks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From carlymih at earthlink.net Sun Nov 13 21:30:33 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:30:33 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: 98a0431a-15f4-448d-89c4-9334e0eb70b9@samobile.net References: <98a0431a-15f4-448d-89c4-9334e0eb70b9@samobile.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111113132855.01cfad78@earthlink.net> Hellow, Don't you see a supposed democracy is one confined strictly, to the plane of the page? All this crap is only a reality on paper!01:52 PM 11/12/2011, Jedi wrote: >Actually Chris, what we have is a representative >democracy. You're right. We do elect >representatives to speak on our behalf and make >some decisions on our behalf. But in a >representative democracy, the bottom line still >rests with the people. At least, in theory. >What's happened is that politicians have, to a >great extent, stopped listening to their >constituents and have started to pay more >attention to their own interests and the >interests of those who have the greatest >influence in their ability to stay in office. So >far is inequality is concerned, we still have it >because we still support it regardless of what >our moral compases say we should support or what >we think we support. In other words, we're not >always congruent with our values. Either that, >or we're not terribly truthful with ourselves >about what our values really are. My guess is that it's some measure of both. > >Respectfully, >Jedi > >Original message: >>Hi Ashley and Bridgit, > >>Let me point out that although there is still discrimination and >>inequality in America, it's not, in my opinion, because our >>"democracy" is flawed; we don't have a democracy! We have a >>Republic for a system of government, which is different from a >>Democratic form of government. The difference is that in a true >>democracy, the country is ruled by the people as a collective, >>all-powerful group. In other words, it is what some would call >>"mob rule." This historically has caused riots and chaos, which >>usually leads to the end of whatever country tried it. As a >>republic, we have representatives who are sent to represent the >>people in our government. We then vote for who we think would be >>best to represent us. So, the discrimination and inequality >>isn't because of our system of government, in my opinion. > >>Chris >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Ashley Bramlett" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:54:56 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities > >>Bridget, >>Well said. I agree there is discrimination and not enough >>equality. And >>other minorities are fighting for the same thing. > >>However, I will do my part to participate in the democracy we >>have, even >>though it’s a flawed one. I'm voting next tuesday! >>Ashley > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 1:20 PM >>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities > >>Jedi, > >>I also identify with feminism, but I consider myself a part of a >>new >>wave of feminist, as it were; my term, no official definition! >>Smile. I >>just try to consider all people equals. It's not about asserting >>dominance over any particular group, or being just like a man; >>it's >>about being me, the best me, and not buying into preconceived >>ideas. > >>I don't back down from my positions and arguments unless I find >>sense or >>logic in another's view point. Feminism, true feminism, which is >>about >>equality, is often misconstrued and viewed in a negative light. >>I tried >>to tailor my argument so as to not focus on feminism in and of >>itself, >>but to display how far from true equality this world really is. > >>We've lulled ourselves into a false sense of equality in today's >>world. >>Yet everywhere we look, discrimination and prejudice remain >>staunch >>parts of life. I totter on the edge of controversy here, but we >>send >>military presences into other countries demanding, forcing them >>to >>accept a democratic way of life, but in our own country many of >>us are >>still struggling to be considered a part of the so-called >>democratic >>society here. Yes, I'm not so stupid to not realize in many >>instances >>people in other countries experience medieval-like ways of life >>and >>horrid governments that will kill to get what they want, but in >>terms of >>a democratic, equal life, no one has achieved this. How can >>Americans >>take on the role of big brother when we won't give certain rights >>and >>respect to groups living in America? Our perspective is skewed. >>I'm not >>necessarily claiming we intentionally dish out inproportionate >>amounts >>of equality, but because many don't have to deal with certain >>experiences or have much exposure to them, they fail to realize >>the >>truth. Unfortunately this ignorance has led too many to think we >>live as >>equals, and that opportunity is simply something you reach out >>for and >>grab it, as though opportunity is attainable equally. Ten >>percent of >>students learning Braille is certainly not a statistic allowing a >>minority to simply reach out and achieve anything. > >>Anyway, I didn't mean to come across with a wishy-washy message; >>it's >>just that my focus was on showing that people with disabilities >>are not >>the only group still fighting to be viewed as capable equals. >>And I >>personally don't look at certain women differently just because >>they >>choose to take a path less traveled these days. Whether working >>or not, >>I don't think we should judge anyone who is pursuing something >>they love >>or being productive even if not in a conventional or traditional >>way. I >>believe in equality among genders, and I think women should be >>able to >>choose whatever path that makes them happy; meanwhile, my >>ultimate dream >>is to be a soccer mom! Smile. > >>It's going to take time to convince people that disability isn't >>the end >>of the road. It helps when people with disabilities actually >>live up to >>the standards and ideas espoused by groups like the Federation, >>but the >>same comment can be said about any minority or under-served >>group. I >>think the best way to truly affect society is to live our lives >>and meet >>the same expectations placed on the rest of the world- to achieve >>averageness should be the goal all people with disabilities works >>towards. Smirky grin. > >>Sincerely, >>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>Read my blog at: >>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >>Message: 8 >>Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:53:20 -0400 >>From: Jedi >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minority groups >>Message-ID: ef9b1671-465f-4c4b-8cd7-511b7cd8d5c3 at samobile.net >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > >>Bridgit, > >>Never apologize for what you say here if it comes from your >>deepest >>experience. This is exactly the discussion we should be having. >>And >>really, there is nothing dirty about feminism. In fact, >>feminists have >>been saying the same thing for decades that you've just said here >>on >>list. So while you personally may not identify as feminist, you >>do >>share feminist beliefs. I identify as a feminist, and we're not >>all >>bra-burning crazies out to get men, we're just men and women who >>are as >>sick of sex oppression as you are. > >>Respectfully, >>Jedi > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>0earthlink.net > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>m%40gmail.com >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >-- >Email services provided by the System Access >Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn >more about accessibility anywhere. > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From dandrews at visi.com Sun Nov 13 21:51:40 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:51:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight In-Reply-To: <4ec022d1.4a5a340a.186c.6c0e@mx.google.com> References: <4ec022d1.4a5a340a.186c.6c0e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Good things come to those who wait! At 02:03 PM 11/13/2011, you wrote: >Hi David, > >I just checked the site, and it STILL says "the page cannot be >displayed" when I select the "click here to download or listen to >past NABS presentations" link. > >Chris > >----- Original Message ----- >From: David Dunphy To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:42:28 -0400 >Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight > >Greetings Everyone! >After many anxious requests for it, >After many have been asking for it, >I am happy to announce that... >Tonight by 9 PM eastern, the new and upgraded nabslinkaudio.org web >site will be up! >What does this mean? >It means that all the nabs membership calls that I've been able to >record from the time the nabslinkaudio.org project launched to now >will be available. But that's not all! >Here are some of the new/improved features you can expect from the site. > >This year's meeting from national convention will be available for >download. The final few parts of the elections got cut out sadly, but >the ones for president, vice president and secretary get revealed. If >anyone has any past national convention meetings they are willing to >share, put them on sendspace or dropbox and email the link/links to >djdrocks4ever at gmail.com >so they too can be added. > > >*Closer tighter integration with nabslink.org, meaning you'll beable >to use the same navigation bar on the nabslink site over on the >nabslink audio site too. This will make it easier for you to go from >our audio pages to the student slate section if you want, etc. >Steps >will be taken to try to combine or integrate these sites a little more >so they can perhaps become one resource for students >A friendly greeting awaits your ears when you launch the new >nabslinkaudio site, but it only plays one time and one time only >unless you delete all your internet cookies everyday. This will not >interfere with the use of your screen reader when the site is launched >for the first time. >I'd like to put some more informational audio up on the site. >Like >talk to people who hold various jobs who are part of the NFB in an >effort to find out about the jobs, what their college experience was >like while moving towards the goal of obtaining said job, what >accessibility challenges came up and how they dealt with them, etc. >I'm hoping I can integrate these things into the nabslinkaudio.org >page as an educational resource for blind students. > >The ability to receive text notifications by cell phone when a new >conference call is in the archives plus when one is about to air live >is now fully integrated into the nabslink audio podcast page. >Anyone >wishing to use this feature, including those who previously took >advantage of it on the old system will have to go through our >automated registration and validation process. This will ensure you >and the nabs membership committee that only the phone owner is using >this feature and that phone numbers aren't being distributed >everywhere. > >For anyone who fills out the contact form to leave me feedback I'll >see it and be able to respond faster now since the form also sends me >a text message.. > >The web address >http://www.nabslinkaudio.org >won't change. the site will be up by 9 PM eastern. As soon as it goes >up, a tweet and an email will be sent out to this list, so feel free >to spread the word once that happens and to leave your >comments/feedback. >If you need to get in touch, email >djdrocks4ever at gmail.com > From David From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 13 22:00:25 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:00:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lauren, Yes asking for directions is a good idea. But, if possible, I suggest picking whom you ask and evaluate what they say, and if they sound unsure themselves, ask someone else. This is since in an urban area, you might run into tourists or visitors who do not know the area and some will admit it, others will not and give you inaccurate directions. Often people in stores are knowledgeable or in hotels. Many sighted travelers ask them directions too, so they should know the area. Often, you don't have a choice and take what is available, but if you just take anyone's directions, you might end up getting more lost than you originally were. Certain people are more helpful than others. Another idea, if you're near one, is the commuter stores that sell subway and bus tickets or in a subway itself, a transit manager might be able to help. These people get questions all the time from travelers as well. I've heard many questions asked of them. Where is the nearest Mcdonalds? How do I get to the zoo? How do I get to the spy museum? Is there a chicken place nearby? Those are just some common questions. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:07 AM To: NFB Subject: Re: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost I would do different things depending on the situation. You need to make the best of your environment. Even if you do not intend to deo so, sometimes you will end up looking like an idiot. But in general, ask directions. When you are lost, this is not dumb to do whether one is blind or sighted. -----Original Message----- From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 9:44 AM To: NFB Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost Ok, bare with me here for a moment, and excuse my language. When you get lost do you a: call the cops and ask them where you are, and waste money in the process? b: wave down a cop when you don’t know if one is near you? c: wave your hands around and make other blind people look like jak asses in the eyes of an already general populous who think blind people are incapable of doing anything for themselves? d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and ask someone on the street for directions e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. I ask this because I know of someone who was tought to do what a, b, and c say to do. I was tought by two outstanding mobility instructors to do what d says, and tought myself e. I want to know what you all out their think. I personally think that making blind people look like helpless jack asses and wasting money on unesesary calls is pointless. I’m almost sure most mobility instructors would teach their students to do what choice d asks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Nov 13 22:02:19 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:02:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <4ec01882.4723340a.7667.6c48@mx.google.com> References: <4ec01882.4723340a.7667.6c48@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Cool! I'm going to start this same program, in the schools! If we're going to educate people about blindness, we need to start with the children. Blessings, Joshua On 11/13/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Joshua and everyone, > > I am in 8th grade and am mainstreamed in the public school system > here in Carroll County, Maryland. I'm also an anchor on my > school's TV-LIKE morning announcements program. So, one day > during Meet the Blind Month when I was on the program as an > anchor, I made an announcement on the air regarding Meet the > Blind Month and its purpose, to "educate the sighted public about > the truth about blindness, and our real capabilities." I also > encouraged them to ask me any questions they had about blindness, > no matter what it was. I wouldn't be offended. I closed the > announcement with a slogan that my TVI thought up; "I encourage > all of you to open your mind and meet the blind!" This has > started a great opportunity for me to educate my peers, and for > them to openly ask me questions. My family and I also do a > program for my teachers each year, in which we do a blindness > simulations where the teachers have to make a peanut butter and > jelly sandwich blindfolded. This also helps them get an glimpse > into my world, if you will. I'd love to hear what you guys did > for Meet the Blind Month, if anything! > > Chris > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:59:21 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > I actually did a presentation at my college, for "Meet the > Blind," > month where I showed everyone how to guide a blind person, and I > taught them the blindness courtesy rules, from the NFB. > I'd encourage all students here, to ask if you can do the same > thing, > at your colleges. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/4/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this > discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it > important. > As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when > African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than > white > Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement > called "race > science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and > link it > to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this > belief has > been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, > psychologists have identified specific factors in the social > environment that can lead to racial differences in performance > on > standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in > intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes > worded > in a biased fashion to favor people from white American > backgrounds, > and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to > perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. > Because > African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this > stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. > As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the > sighted > public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, > about the > inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of > ability we > have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the > social > environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack > of > instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of > accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from > the > condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our > lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the > majority > of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally > successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social > conditions, just like most people (at least most educated > people) now > understand that African Americans are just as intellectually > capable > as whites if the social environment supports their success. > We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will > be > difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some > sighted > people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that > in our > culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and > people > assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains > why > literature geared toward parents of blind children often > highlights > the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned > visually, > and it explains why blindness professionals are often so > unwilling to > teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. > People > have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus > some > mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs > about > the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often > unconscious, > and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because > these > beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how > blind > people function requires some creative thinking and mental > flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess > or are > willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people > on > board for the environmental modifications we need to be > equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these > changes > will give us equal opportunity. > Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start > standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often > conditioned to > accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant > behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem > is > that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be > misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to > other > minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or > outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an > illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this > kindness > is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of > really > being given proper attention. For example, when I was a > teenager, I > often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well > and > would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or > manhandled > me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of > me as a > b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing > their > behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So > I > definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly > and > directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a > way > that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I > would be > interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you > mention. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: > David, > > With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that > rewards us > for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. > When we > say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we > somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the > message > which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," > or > ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what > about those > of us whom such logic doesn't work for? > > I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just > don't > know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse > because I > started to think that there was something wrong with me for > feeling > upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. > I > started questioning the validity of my own experience as the > person to > whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed > upon. > Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking > or else > go nuts. *grin* > > Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is > that > what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be > malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred > years or > so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue > to do so > until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're > harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as > anything. I > hope the analogy is not too remote. > > My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the > sighted > when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish > to be > treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the > rest of > the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with > the > sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, > and > that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, > to a > large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high > unemployment rate, > why we experience discrimination in our recreational and > personal > lives, and why the public still largely considers us a > non-entity in a > lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example > of this). > > Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I > think we > can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to > develop > excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the > sighted > thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first > step is > realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that > change > to happen and take the steps to start it. > > Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I > think we > need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I > realize we > still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they > are out > of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that > have > cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need > fresher > faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current > generation because that's who will be reading these stories on > the > sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel > books. > anyone with me? > > The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves > how to > communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i > talked > about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through > education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways > of > going about it and there are some amazing groups and > institutions who > specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their > experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, > the > Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the > Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can > help > groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more > effectively; > we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB > convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out > with; > maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. > Alternatively, the > Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to > train > as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around > from > affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these > encounter > groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a > group of > people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and > can do > so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. > > Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some > time, > and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm > going to > need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in > hearing from > anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think > we > could come up with some crazy way to get it going. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: > Arielle: > > I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the > biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of > the > blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they > could > do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- > which > they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. > > I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! > > Dave > > At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: > Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, > but I > also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as > blind > people to think about. > Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced > by the > blind are similar to or different from those faced by other > minority > groups in this country historically and in the present. More > than > that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us > as a > group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It > has > struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us > in > discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering > that > this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination > against other minority groups. > Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the > Blind, Jim > Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center > and a > female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so > well, > sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, > Mr. > Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a > philosophy > class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You > are such > a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I > recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, > what I > said about you being blind was very different from what you said > about > my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" > Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her > comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, > so > someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To > me this > sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to > a > woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a > difference > here? > I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and > trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views > about > race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination > against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless > have no > qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like > saying blind > people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that > blind > people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, > etc. > They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't > understand > why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members > will > make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. > They think > they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I > don't > want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a > collective. > Yet these same people would never tell an African American that > they > are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the > protests > against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many > people > just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could > do-and yet > an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female > anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in > our > modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed > that the > college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a > survey > that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet > would > never say such things directly about another minority group-in > fact, > lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those > attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit > their > prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. > So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more > accurate > than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination > against > the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such > a > small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the > same > scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's > awareness? Do > you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other > minorities > in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do > we get > members of the public to see this? > Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are > "dual > minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in > this > country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, > uncommon > religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are > similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? > I look forward to the discussion. > Best, > Arielle > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi > %40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. > Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 13 22:59:07 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:59:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] test Message-ID: <4FC09B24A8044D7A9D315EB7AFB13B99@OwnerPC> are messages coming to nfbnet lists? haven’t seen mine and its been hours. From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 00:58:02 2011 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:58:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course In-Reply-To: References: <000001cc9e4a$65fed5f0$31fc81d0$@mchsi.com> <4E251085B19646579FD803601FB34277@Cptr233> <4EBECA62.6080108@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: Hi, Arielle and all, If you go to Insert > Functions in MS Excel 2003 or select Insert Function under the Formula tab in MS Excel 2007 or 2010, you will be taken to a dialog box titled Insert Function. Select Statistical as your desired category, then tab over to access a list of statistical formulas. The formulas specifically relevant to critical values are normsinv (for z-scores), TInv (for t distributions), and FInv (for f distributions). Press Enter on the formula you are looking for and you will be prompted to enter information such as degrees of freedom and the desired p-value. Of course, as in other Excel formulas, you can save a lot of time by entering the formulas directly without going through the menus, but since I haven't done this for a while I can't remember the exact order of the elements that go into a particular formula. I have personally find Excel a good statistics tool; I used it extensively along with a talking scientific calculator in my basic statistics course as an undergrad. Katie On 11/12/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Katie, > Do you know what the specific Excel formula is to compute a critical > value? I didn't know Excel could do that, but that could be a useful > command for many blind stats students. Of course, I don't recommend > that blind students use Excel to do things the sighted students need > to do by hand (like computing means and standard deviations) but Excel > could be a useful workaround when the sighted students have to look up > values in a table, since these tables aren't always fully accessible. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/12/11, Katie Wang wrote: >> Hi Greg, >> In addition to the on-line resources Arielle referred to, I would also >> like to mention that Microsoft Excel actually has a variety of >> built-in statistical functions. It doesn't run t-tests or ANOVAs, but >> it does allow you to look up the p-value of a particular z-score or >> vice versa. You can also use it to look up critical values on the f or >> t distribution after inputting the specific degrees of freedom you >> want. >> Hope this helps! >> Katie >> >> >> On 11/12/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi Greg, >>> I found an online table of critical values for the T-statistic at >>> http://www.jeremymiles.co.uk/misc/tables/t-test.html >>> That is the most common table you'll use. You can also go to >>> www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm >>> and do the following: >>> 1. Select the third option, "statistical distributions and >>> interpreting p-vvalues". >>> 2. Select the second option, "calculate z, f, t, or chi-square from a >>> probability". >>> 3. To find the critical value for z, enter your alpha level (it will >>> usually be .05) in the "probability" box and click "compute z". To >>> find the critical value for a T-test, enter your alpha level in the >>> "probability" box as above and your degrees of freedom in the "df" >>> box, and then click "compute t". >>> If what you are needing to do is to find the probability for a given z >>> or t-statistic, go to graphpad as above, select "statistical >>> distributions and interpreting p-values" as above. Then select the >>> first option, "calculate p from z, t, f, or chi-square". Enter the z >>> or t-statistic you have in the relevant box and click "compute p from >>> z" or "compute p from t" accordingly. The calculator will tell you the >>> probability. >>> I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if I misunderstood what you >>> need to do with the critical value table or if my suggestions don't >>> work. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 11/12/11, Icewolf wrote: >>>> Hello Arielle, >>>> I am taking an introductory stats course. Do you know of a good online >>>> source for the critical value table that reads well with JAWS? The one >>>> in my book is kinda hard to follow. This stats stuff can be confusing. >>>> I am onto probabilities at the moment now. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Greg Wocher >>>> >>>> >>>> Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of >>>> all >>>> days. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/12/2011 12:49 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> As I said, I have taken two undergraduate and two graduate statistics >>>>> courses. I agree that Braille textbooks are ideal, but I don't think >>>>> Braille is the only way to learn the material. In fact, due to >>>>> resource limitations at my university and some philosophical >>>>> disagreements I had with my DSS office, I never had a Braille stats >>>>> textbook, and I still did well in the course. For the first course I >>>>> used E-text, and for the second course I used a recorded book from >>>>> RFBD (now Learning Ally) on one of those old analog audiocassettes. >>>>> Believe it or not, I had a better experience with the audio textbook >>>>> than I did with the E-text, because some formulas and equations don't >>>>> read properly with JAWS, but the RFBD reader was great at reading >>>>> formulas and equations and describing diagrams. The secret when using >>>>> an audio textbook is to take detailed notes, preferably in Braille on >>>>> a slate or with a refreshable Braille notetaker like a Braille Note or >>>>> Pac Mate. Copy down all the formulas you hear verbatim, so you can >>>>> make yourself your own Braille equation book or file to study. Don't >>>>> worry about proper Nemeth code; the key is to write it down in a way >>>>> that makes sense to you, and that you can refer back to later. The >>>>> same notetaking method is invaluable to use in class. In >>>>> graduate-level stats, the textbook was optional and almost identical >>>>> to the lecture material. I had a PDF copy of the text, but never read >>>>> beyond the first chapter. (My sighted boyfriend didn't read the >>>>> textbook either, and got a better grade in the class than I did :). >>>>> I did my stats homework assignments on a regular computer in MS-Word, >>>>> but used my Braille Note as a notepad to copy down data sets and to >>>>> perform computations. Doing homework assignments on the Braille Note >>>>> itself is also an option, although making your answers legible to a >>>>> sighted grader requires some computer Braille knowledge, so I >>>>> preferred to write my answers on the computer. >>>>> Regarding an accessible stats calculator: again, I would recommend >>>>> www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm >>>>> It will do most introductory stat functions, is completely accessible, >>>>> and is Web-based, so it can be used on your personal computer without >>>>> having to purchase software. Despite the name, it is not graphical. In >>>>> fact, I learned about it when I was a TA for a research methods course >>>>> and my professor preferred teaching it rather than having our students >>>>> learn a software application. If you are about to enroll in stats, I >>>>> would suggest asking your professor if you can use Graphpad instead of >>>>> whatever software program the rest of the class is using. If you are >>>>> doing more advanced statistics work or analyzing your own data, you >>>>> may want to invest in a software program. Both SAS and R are >>>>> accessible, and R is free. (SPSS is more commonly used, but I have had >>>>> some accessibility issues with it myself and I have heard conflicting >>>>> things about whether newer versions are accessible). As a graduate >>>>> student I got my department to buy and renew my SAS license so I can >>>>> analyze my data, and I imagine most departments should be able to >>>>> provide this accommodation especially if you are on a graduate student >>>>> stipend. >>>>> Finally, regarding those pesky graphs and diagrams: In my experience, >>>>> graphs and diagrams are just one tool for understanding statistical >>>>> concepts. Statistics itself is not a graphical field; performing >>>>> statistical analyses requires the application of mathematical formulas >>>>> but not the interpretation of graphs. Stats is taught to sighted >>>>> students in a graphical way because this is the way many sighted >>>>> people prefer to learn, but it is just one way of communicating the >>>>> conceptual knowledge. Some blind students find the graphs helpful, >>>>> while other blind students prefer to focus on the formulas and the >>>>> mathematical side of things. Once you get beyond the first month of >>>>> the course, it is mostly about doing a calculation and seeing if the >>>>> number you get is greater than or less than another number you find in >>>>> a table (called the critical value). This is relatively >>>>> straightforward and requires no graphical information. By all means, >>>>> though, if you are having trouble following the course or think a >>>>> graph would be helpful, you should talk to your professor or teaching >>>>> assistant in their office hours, or hire a tutor. Most professors and >>>>> TA's would love to get more office-hour visits than they generally get >>>>> in a semester. >>>>> Again, I would be happy to talk one-on-one with anybody who is doing >>>>> statistics or social science research, or to present about techniques >>>>> for stats and research (including online and library research) at a >>>>> NABS conference call or breakout session. Some of this stuff is better >>>>> explained in person, but it is all important and relevant to most >>>>> blind college students at some point in your career. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 11/8/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>>>>> I am currently enrolled in a statistics course. My college brailled >>>>>> the >>>>>> necessary parts of the book that I needed. I could have not done it >>>>>> without >>>>>> the book being brailled. So if I were to say the things that will make >>>>>> you >>>>>> successful in a statistics course, are: brailled book, accessible >>>>>> statistic >>>>>> calculater, and perhaps a tutor that can help you understand the >>>>>> graphics, >>>>>> diagrams and the like. I would say, you will need to push your college >>>>>> or >>>>>> university to Braille the book. Don't give up, because they will and >>>>>> can >>>>>> do >>>>>> it. Mine said they could not, but I made a good case in that it would >>>>>> help >>>>>> me understand the materials better. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck! >>>>>> Marsha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Miranda Morse >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:13 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go >>>>>> about >>>>>> doing that? >>>>>> >>>>>> Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone >>>>>> successfully >>>>>> used a PDF format for this course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Miranda >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmail.co >>>>>> m >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>> signature >>>>>> database 6612 (20111108) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>> signature >>>>>> database 6612 (20111108) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:31:47 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:31:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chris and Arielle, I completely understand where you're coming from- I've had the exact same experiences, and in fact, though I don't consider myself a Christian, my father is a minister, and my mother is a devout Catholic- don't ask, it's a long story, smile. Anyway, I've encountered many who view me with pity no matter the circumstances of my life and want to pray for me, but I've also had to deal with people who believe I'm blind because I, "don't have enough faith." However, I think it important we not be condescending, rude or angry when people ask to pray for us. Though the reasoning and logic are wrong, the sentiment is not. We should not acquiesce to them, or leave the encounter without educating them in some way, but, regardless of religious beliefs, prayer in and of itself isn't a bad thing. And being told you're beautiful is never a bad thing! Smile. The Bible has several references about blindness that aren't exactly positive or progressive, and Christians are taught to help the weak and poor. Unfortunately people with disabilities are often viewed as "weak and poor" despite any evidence to the contrary. Like most people though, once they get to know us and learn about us and our disability, many will grow and change their idea of disability. While living in Des Moines, my husband and I were invited to a church by a cab driver of all people. His wife was the youth pastor, and unlike many, he simply had a conversation with us like he would with anyone else. At least on the surface, he didn't seem to consider our blindness to be a reason to go to church. Because of this, we thought we'd visit since he was really nice and open-minded. Neither of us are Christians, but we ended up joining the church, though they were aware we didn't share beliefs, but became friends with a lot of the people nonetheless. It was a very small church, and the members were so welcome and open-minded. They asked us how to make programs and services more accessible, and after the first couple of times, no one treated us as though we were helpless or incapable. To this day, we're friends with some of those people, and we were invited to participate in an initiative the church was doing to include the disabled community and educate about disability. I'm not trying to defend the reasoning behind why some religious people ask to pray for us just because we're blind- though stemming from kindness, it's wrong thinking and must be changed. It is better, though, than those who think our problem is because we don't have enough faith or are sinners. I like to tell people that, according to most Christian doctrines, God allows things to happen in our life. Obviously, if following this logic, God has allowed me to be blind, and to view this as sad and want to pray to change it is to question God's plan. For some, they at least stop and think. I guess my point is that like anyone else we deal with who hold similar ideas, we should handle the situation with diplomacy and respect. I'm not implying Arielle or anyone else did not do this, I'm simply cautioning us to not condescend because people, out of ignorance, think a certain way about blindness. Hopefully we will change the minds of those in religious communities just as we hope to change minds with the rest of the world. Side note: Arielle, I had a similar encounter with a woman who approached me with tears in her eyes and told me, I wish you could see how beautiful you are." I'm not exactly sure why this was such a sad thing, or why it so important I be able to "see" myself regardless of how I look. It really freaks people out when they find out I wasn't always blind! I'm a bit of an instigator at times, smirky grin, and I like to freak people out in these situations. Like purposefully walking to the edge of a pool because my grandma was worried I'd fall in. No matter I not only can swim, but was on the swim team in school and was a lifeguard in high school. Okay, this just voids out everything I said before. Smile. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 7 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:51:28 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Nice going, Chris! I have had a few people ask about praying for me, and I'm always too dumbfounded to come up with a good or intelligent response. I think what you said about praying for less discrimination is right on, and hopefully gets the point across to those guys. One thing I said once when I was asked about being prayed for was "you can pray for me if you want to, but I think there are probably a lot of other people who need the prayers more than I do". Funny story-once a few years ago at Washington Seminar, I was in one of the House buildings with two other blind people from our affiliate, and someone came up and for some reason wanted to pray for just me. She said something about thanking God for making me so beautiful. Um...What? Best, Arielle On 11/10/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Beth, > > Now, I have to first say to everyone that this is a good discussion, > but I hope we don't get too off topic, and I really hope this > discussion doesn't turn into another one like the one we had in > September. Not saying that anyone is doing anything like that, but > just a fair warning. Beth, as for all religions, there are radicals > in all religions. There are a few Muslims who I know (including you > now, BTW, give me a call on Skype sometime, haven't been able to get a > hold of you on Skype in a while,) and my beliefs on the Muslim > religion as a whole have changed since I met one. I first thought > that they were some radical religious movement which believed in > terrorism and holy war. But I learned that this isn't the case for > many Muslims; in fact, many of you denounce (or at least don't agree > with) what the extremists do. Similarly, while I respect your ability > to make decisions about your religious beliefs and your conversion to > Islam, I just want to let you know that many Christians (like myself > and other blind > Christians) don't believe what your family members believe. I have > never run into problems at my church with Christianity and blindness, > and I don't think a lot of Christians believe that blindness is > unbearable. Well, let's just point out that many members of the > sighted public, regardless of their religion, believe that blindness > is unbearable. The only time I ran into any problems with > misconceptions about blindness and religion together was when I was on > an O and M lesson in my hometown this summer and a really elderly > gengleman came up to us (my instructor and I) just as I was preparing > to cross the street, (he scared me a little) and started asking my > teacher (like she was supposed to be speaking for me) if I wanted to > be put on his church's prayer list. Thankfully, she told him that he > could ask me and that I was old enough to make those kinds of > decisions on my own. When he (reluctantly enough) finally asked me, I > answered, "Thank you for the consideration, but why exactly do > you want to pray for me? I'm not sick, nor am I in some kind of > emotional trouble." He answered that he wanted to pray for me > because I was "um... unsighted" and he wanted Jesus to "heal" > me. Then, once again turning to my teacher, he asked, "How long > has he been that way?" That's right, "that way!" He couldn't even > bring himself to say the word blind, lest the mere mention of the > word offend me, even when he knew I was travelling and > functioning pretty independently and confidently, and seemed to > have no problem whatsoever with the fact that I was blind! She > then prompted him once again to talk to me, and he asked me the > question. Politely enough, I answered "I was born blind," > putting a little emphasis on the word blind. Starting to stare > at me in what was probably wonder at my independence, he said, > "You're born that way! Well, that's something! Well we'll pray > for you!" I thanked him for the prayer, and said that "if you put > me on your prayer list, I hope you will also pray that sighted > people will see that blind people can be on terms of equality > with them, and that we're just as capable as them, although we > might do things differently. If sighted people see this, then I > pray that there will be no more discrimination against the blind > just because we're blind." I didn't say those exact words, but it > was pretty much the same. So there you have it. Misconceptions > rear their ugly head yet again, and I hope I got the point > across. To close, I will say this; you've probably heard the old > saying "Agitate, agitate, agitate." Well, for us, it's "Educate, > educate, educate!" > > Chris From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:53:53 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:53:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] What do you do when lost? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While we certainly can learn how to travel and figure directions out on our own, sadly, not all of us learn from great, or even competent, travel instructors. I think we have to take this into consideration when dealing with each other, and understand that blindness education isn't just for the sighted world. If you've never been instilled with confidence to be independent, it can take time to develop it. We should be respectful to one another and cognizant of the reasoning as to why some may not be as comfortable and confident with independence, demonstrating competent, capable skills. That being said, it's not difficult to know if people are near by, and if entering a room or building that is initially quiet, asking if anyone is available will help you discover if anyone is present. No need to shout, but simply say it out loud. There are also many ways in which to figure out what to do when lost, but we all, even sighted people, get so turned around to the point where we just can't figure out which way to go. There's nothing wrong with asking for directions. Ringing the police should never be done unless you're in danger or hurt. Sorry, I fail to see why tax payers money should go to pay for police to come help give directions to a person. They have better things to do, and unless you're in danger or hurt, and being lost is neither, don't ring the police. I will also say this: I admit that travel isn't always my forte. When sighted, I was horrible with directions, and when driving, I learned how to get places by landmarks, not cardinal directions. So once losing my sight, it was a real struggle at first to travel nonvisually in some ways. It honestly took me some time to adjust to paying attention to things without it being an effort. I now just naturally pay attention to those nonvisual cues, but I didn't automatically have this as an instinctive reaction in the beginning. However, the more I got out and practiced, the better I became, and the more comfortable I grew with using nonvisual cues. I'll never be like those of you, and my hubby, who can travel anywhere with little issue, figuring it all out immediately, and I was never like this sighted either, but I now am much more confident even when unsure of where to go, and those nonvisual cues are second nature though it took time. Usually, I don't encounter huge problems when on my own because I just got out there and learned. Practice is the best method. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 18 Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:44:38 -0500 From: To: "NFB" Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Ok, bare with me here for a moment, and excuse my language. When you get lost do you a: call the cops and ask them where you are, and waste money in the process? b: wave down a cop when you don?t know if one is near you? c: wave your hands around and make other blind people look like jak asses in the eyes of an already general populous who think blind people are incapable of doing anything for themselves? d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and ask someone on the street for directions e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. I ask this because I know of someone who was tought to do what a, b, and c say to do. I was tought by two outstanding mobility instructors to do what d says, and tought myself e. I want to know what you all out their think. I personally think that making blind people look like helpless jack asses and wasting money on unesesary calls is pointless. I?m almost sure most mobility instructors would teach their students to do what choice d asks. From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 22:32:38 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:32:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and judgment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E3D7D99831423185C8D58F18A2F706@Cptr233> Bridget, Very very good post. I do find it amazing that people within our organization judge. I am too a person who is not only blind, but I am also hearing impaired, and have balance issues. Before I was married to my current husband, I was at a national convention, I was lost, stopped someone for directions. This was Dallas. And yes they were blind too. But because I could not find my way, I was judged. I didn't ask for them to guide me, I wasn't asking for them to lead me by my hand. Just give me some general directions. When I explained I needed the elevator, not the stairs, again more judgment. I avoid stairs like the plague, not because I am blind, but because I could potentially fall down them. The judgment in our own organization is harsher than in the normal sighted society. Because I am not a super blindie, and I have to do things the way I do them, I get shamed from NFB members. Our organization is not one that just has blind people in it, we are now an organization with lots of people with additional disabilities. But NO ONE is willing to recognize this, be sensitive to it, and accept those people too. Just two cents! Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:57 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and judgment Jedi, Since you started... This segways nicely into a discussion I've long wanted to open up. First, everyone, blind, sighted, everyone, needs to recognize that people need help sometimes. There's nothing wrong with asking for help, but we also have to understand that blindness doesn't mean we need more help than anyone else. I've always been very independent, and when I lost my sight, it really irritated me that so many people thought I required so much help. When I was diagnosed with tachycardia and severe low blood pressure, it was difficult that there were times I literally couldn't do much physically. I've always been very active, and before my medications were regulated, I had a lot of difficulty just walking because I felt so weak. Requiring assistance to move around had nothing to do with my blindness, but I needed assistance because of my health. I still have episodes where I feel weak enough to the point where I may need an arm to lean on, but personally, I don't take sighted guide because of my blindness. And on a side note, when I do need such assistance, I don't care if the person is sighted or blind, as long as I have the support necessary is all I care about. I guess I shouldn't so much refer to it as sighted guide but simply a guide or support. Seeing as I'm predominantly with my hubby, and he is blind, he is usually the one who helps me out during these episodes, which goes to show I can't call it sighted guide. Smile. Now, I agree with you to an extent because I see so many blind people complain about society and how we're not treated as equals or like we can be independent. All this is said while I observe said people taking sighted assistance more than is necessary. I try to not judge people I don't know because I have no clue what a persons life is like. Such as myself, who when having my weak blood pressure episodes could be judged as a blind person always taking assistance, but if you knew me, you'd know that my reasoning for a guide of any kind is because of health related concerns. But I know plenty of people who have no reason to use sighted assistance for every little thing. It's tough to argue our independence and capabilities when we rarely choose to truly be independent. It makes my life difficult when I have to deal with people who have encountered blind people who not only constantly ask for sighted help, but expect it. It's really annoying to have to explain and demand independence from people who are only responding based on past experience with other blind people. As I keep saying, we can teach sighted people to treat us as equals and accept our abilities, but if blind people don't believe this, it negates the work done with our sighted peers. There was a security guard on my campus who every freaking time she saw me, she asked if I needed help, and in the beginning would do the arm grab. I found out that another blind student on campus frequently requested sighted guides to get from class to class, which ended up being the job designated to the security office. I discovered who said person was, and I knew them quite well, and they had no true reason requesting sighted guide as they could have learned to get around campus on their own, but they summarily refused to even consider the idea. Eventually the security guard realized I didn't require this kind of help and they just greeted me like they did anyone else when running into me, but based on prior experience, it was assumed I needed similar help. This is just as much a blind persons fault as it is a sighted persons. Trust me, it can be scary doing things independently for anyone, but when we choose to overcome fears and anxieties, we grow familiar with negotiating situations on our own. Eventually we become accustomed to navigating the world nonvisually, and people, not everyone, but many, observe our independence and will recognize we don't require help all the time. However, to make snap judgments and generalizations does nothing to help us either. I'd also like to point out to those who believe in the all or nothing method of travel that years ago Dr. Jernigan addressed some students as to why he chose to use sighted guide in certain situations. His response can be found on the NFB website. While we should act as independently as we can, there are times when we should feel no shame in requesting assistance. It's about efficiency. This is why NFB presidents use sighted guides during convention so they can efficiently navigate from place to place especially among so many other people careening about. It's not used all the time, or most of the time, but it's available if needed. That all being said, most of us can operate quite fine on our own. I don't have the time to wait for a sighted person to help me get stuff done, nor do I have a sighted person in my life who wants to be at my beck and call. Independent travel is something that I expect in blind people, and until we all understand this, we don't have much of a chance to ever be viewed as equals in society. Those who know me well, both sighted and blind, know I don't like having to ask for help for any reason. Sometimes we have no choice in the matter such as when a health issue is involved, but I don't appreciate judgmental attitudes from the blind or sighted world, which by the way is the same world. I live with my blind husband, and we live on our own. We take the bus to work, school, the market, doctor visits, etc., we go out to movies and theatre and restaurants, and we don't have sighted people there to assist whenever we feel the whim. And when out with sighted people, we still do things for ourselves such as go to the bathroom, walk, order food, whatever. I think the more we do things independently, the more we show people how capable we are. And when I said classmates let me lead the way in asking for help, I simply meant that they stopped asking all the time if I needed help. If I did, I'd ask, and they understood this. I presented myself with confidence and did what was expected of other classmates. I didn't expect, or ask for, special treatment unless necessary such as taking exams accessibly. I negotiated campus with no help, and in fact, usually knew my way around better than a lot of sighted classmates. Funny story, while in conversation with fellow classmates, I made a comment about the Weber Fine Arts building, to which one of my classmates responded by saying, "I don't know what building that is," and to which I replied, "It's the building you are sitting in currently." giggle. I figured school out just like everyone else has too, and I didn't believe myself less capable or less efficient than anyone else. To be treated as equals, we have to act and think like we are equal. We should be expected to do what anyone else is expected to do. I don't really know why we think we are expected to go beyond those expectations, within reason of course. I mean, should I start serving myself at sit-down restaurants because technically a sighted person is doing it for me. Should I walk everywhere in a city with more than one million people, because a driver on a bus is sighted after all. I mean, where is the line drawn for some of us? Apparently our independence is compromised because we ask for help no matter the situation. We certainly need to be aware of our independence and how we present ourselves in public especially if we claim to want equality, but we also have to live our lives and not to always be making points but for ourselves. A part of being equals and accepted as such, is to understand that we can, and will, ask for help at times and there's nothing wrong with this. It can be a fine balance, but we can't live our life thinking we can never, ever ask for help, sighted or otherwise, and if we take help, we've compromised our independence and the independence of blind people everywhere. I can't do a lot physically on the few occasions I suffer a low blood pressure, so I may take an arm if available. Since some may view this as equating to all blind people must need sighted help, it would be better for me to suffer and struggle around due to weakness and fatigue? It's ludacris. Or if we are in a situation where sighted assistance may make for a smoother transaction, we should be viewed as inefficient just as long as we're viewed as doing it alone? What's the better image? I'm 30 and no longer have the F-ing time to constantly have to prove a point, to sighted people or blind people alike. Judging and assuming come in different forms, let's not forget this. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 2 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:44:05 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help Message-ID: b77ac139-7925-43a6-9b75-e6551c43e223 at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Bridgit, I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, walking alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think those blindness attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with you that our actions mean a lot; we can't claim that we want to be independent travelers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. I'm sorry to say that this is one of the few situations in which we can't have our cake and eat it, too. Respectfully, Jedi _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmail.co m __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6626 (20111113) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6628 (20111114) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6628 (20111114) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From brownbears at mchsi.com Mon Nov 14 23:34:55 2011 From: brownbears at mchsi.com (Miranda Morse) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:34:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Just Testing Message-ID: <000301cca326$052e0ad0$0f8a2070$@mchsi.com> Just testing my email account. Miranda From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 13 20:51:25 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:51:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got that message too. They're probably reconstructing the site or something. -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:54 AM To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org ; nabs-l at nfbnet.org ; gui-talk at nfbnet.org ; NFBWaTlk at NNFBNet.org Subject: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? hello everybody, I'm not sure what's up with teh NFB website. I tried to go to it and I got an error page saying, "page not found." this also impacted the NFB newsline (r) web site, and NFB Newsline Online Website as well. If you know when the web sites will be restored please let me know, otherwise, just a heads up for you. Sincerely, Humberto _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 01:43:20 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:43:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? Message-ID: <4ec1c3db.a524340a.6000.ffff849e@mx.google.com> Hi Jewel, I've heard a lot of advertisements for various goods and services for the blind on ACB Radio. These ads are usually for assistive technology devices, such as JAWS, Serotek products, or the BrailleNote or other HumanWare products, especially their Braille displays. I've also seen a lot of ads in the Braille Monitor, the Braille Forum, and the Matilda Ziegler magazine. There's a lot of stuff about various technology online, on ACB Radio, and distributed through the various organizations, such as the Braille Monitor from NFB or Access World from AFB. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Jewel Hi Jewel, Here's the link to ACB Radio: www.acbradio.org. There are five channels in the ACB Radio domain: MainStream (talk radio for the blind,) Café (music from blind musicians,) Treasure Trove (old-time radio shows,) Interactive (live Internet radio where you can participate in the show,) and World (talk radio and other programming for the blind in different languages.) You will probably hear the ads mainly on MainStream and maybe Interactive. Hope this helps, and enjoy ACB Radio! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Jewel wrote: I know that ACB radio advertises about products and services for the blind. Alena On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Jewel wrote: Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I wanted to get some ideas from you all. How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the audience, and what format they are in? Thhank you for any input you can provide. ~Jewel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts 2282%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 01:43:33 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:43:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? Message-ID: <4ec1c3e9.a524340a.6000.ffff84ac@mx.google.com> Josh, it's World. ----- Original Message ----- From: josh gregory wrote: Where do I find ACB Radio? On 11/7/11, Alena Roberts wrote: I know that ACB radio advertises about products and services for the blind. Alena On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Jewel wrote: Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I wanted to get some ideas from you all. How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the audience, and what format they are in? Thhank you for any input you can provide. ~Jewel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts 2282%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 gmail.com -- Sent via gmail.com Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com Skype: joshgregory93 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 01:43:26 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:43:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? Message-ID: <4ec1c3e1.a524340a.6000.ffff84a1@mx.google.com> Yes, they do a lot of ads for the blind. Alena, you guys at the Matilda Ziegler do a lot of ads and product reviews as well. I've seen a lot of articles written by John Christy, one of your feature writers, reviewing products. You also do a lot of product/service reviews in your articles, as you did for us (Arianna's Art) in an article back in August. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Alena Roberts Hi Phillip, Great point! I think yet another interesting thread inside this interesting thread will stem from your question. I think we've gone through some stages too, and our acceptance has gotten better since, say, 1940 (the year the Federation was founded,) although there is still a lot of discrimination out there that we're still having to deal with. Look at some of the archived Braille Monitors from the late 50's and early 60's and/or some of the NFB's early documents, and compare them to our issues today, and tell me things haven't changed! There's still a lot of discrimination, but now, it's on a much smaller scale. For example, before the founding of the NFB, almost all the blind people who were employed were working in sheltered workshops, in which they were under the direct supervision of sighted people, and were paid subminimum wages. These sighted people were pretty much babysitters for the blind employees, and the employers never accepted the blind employees for who they really were, and never took advantage of their full potential. Pretty much all the blind kids were going to schools for the blind, where they basically taught them to be dependent on the sighted and practiced that within the schools. See the introduction to Walking Alone and Marching Together, entitled "The Dark Ages and the Dawn of Organization" for more information. Now, we still have 70 percent unemployment among the blind, and we are still facing discrimination, especially in the area of access to technology. However, the schools for the blind have become more dedicated to those who are blind and have other disabilities, and their curriculums more centered around independent living, rather than dependent living. They teach cane travel, Braille, and other alternative skills of blindness. Most of us, though, are mainstreamed and are fully participating in the standard core curriculum. Many of us here on this list are either in a mainstream college or university, or are planning to go to one. Yes, we're still facing a lot of discrimination, but things have gotten a lot better when you look back at history. You may ask, "Why are you being so optomistic? We're still facing a lot of discrimination, right? So then, are you saying we should diminish our advocacy efforts now, because after all, things have gotten better?" To which I would reply, "Absolutely not!" We still have a lot of work to do, and it is only by advocacy among the blind community that we will change things. This is why it says in the Federation's "national anthem," if you will, Glory Glory Federation, "our work is never done!" Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip S wrote: Hi all. I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the blind speak and advocate for themselves. I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how offensive that comment was to me. When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. :) The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with others, they understand and don't get too offended. This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading about all your thoughts and experiences. On 11/6/11, Jedi wrote: Chris, People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude socially speaking. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: Hi Arielle, You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, the difference between the public's stereotyping and discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, especially those members of the public who work directly with us or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; from one generation to their children, then passed on to those children's children, then to their children, and to their children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public directly effect us, as we then become the object of discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not discriminated against for the reason that there were misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple reason that they were different! During this time, I think the majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that all people are different, and that having a different skin color doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a different character than the beliefs which make people discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the misconceptions and discrimination have no justification whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, and the little discrimination that still exists is generally thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype against other people. Those are my thoughts. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 15 03:18:45 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:18:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Just Testing In-Reply-To: <000301cca326$052e0ad0$0f8a2070$@mchsi.com> References: <000301cca326$052e0ad0$0f8a2070$@mchsi.com> Message-ID: its not your account; something was wrong with the list, as no messages went through after 12:30 yesterday -----Original Message----- From: Miranda Morse Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 6:34 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Just Testing Just testing my email account. Miranda _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 02:00:22 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:00:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? Message-ID: <4ec1c7da.4723340a.7667.7f58@mx.google.com> Hey Preston, Welcome to the list! Glad to see you here! I had a lot of fun at the state convention, how did you like it? Email me off list so we can catch up! For everybody else, Preston is a fellow Marylander and is (I believe) a new member of the Maryland Association of Blind Students and NABS. He went to BISM's Independence 2011 this year. BTW, Preston, and anyone else on the list who would like to friend me, my Facebook page is at facebook.com/dotkid if you want to friend me! Talk to you soon! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Preston Gaylor wrote: I know that ACB radio advertises about products and services for the blind. Alena On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Jewel wrote: Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I wanted to get some ideas from you all. How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the audience, and what format they are in? Thhank you for any input you can provide. ~Jewel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts 2282%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40 hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 02:39:01 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 19:39:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost In-Reply-To: <90BB06634C004B4DAB20329C7D4B0E25@OwnerPC> References: <90BB06634C004B4DAB20329C7D4B0E25@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I agree, the cops are for true emergencies only. You don't want to spend their time when you have other options available. I think it's important to remember that being lost is just a temporary condition. Being lost in itself is not dangerous, though it can be scary and frustrating. I don't think I've ever gotten severely lost in a residential area, but if I did, I think my first strategy would be to listen for any busy traffic. If I couldn't find busy traffic, I would keep walking in one direction until I either heard busy traffic, or found a pedestrian or someone getting out of a car. I have often asked pedestrians for information, or gone into businesses to ask for information. I don't like to wave down cars unless I am very desperate because I don't want to block traffic. I agree, it is best to ask for orientation clues first and only request specific directions if the orientation clues don't get you back on track. Sighted people are usually pretty good at reading signs or pointing out landmarks in their field of vision; they can be hit-or-miss when giving directions. I am told that many people get their right and left confused even when following directions themselves and these people often have a very hard time giving another person turn-by-turn directions. Some people are so eager to help that they fail to admit they don't know the area well. Arielle On 11/13/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi, > I wanted to respond now that I have a few more minutes. > As I said, usually I try and ask other pedestrians at first. But if I'm > confused and stop to think, they will usually approach me first. If not, I > pick someone out and ask them. I have some vision and try and ask someone > who looks nice; I feel that if they're dressed well, they're probably not on > drugs or homeless. So if they have a briefcase or dressed for work, that is > good. Or in DC or a town, tourists are approachable, but likely do not know > the answer to your question because they are not from the area. > > So I choose D or E if I'm in an area with people to ask. > d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and > ask someone on the street for directions > e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. > > These two options sound the best. I was taught to ask questions from my > mobility instructors. > As one of them said, "your'e not in a forest. There are people around. So, > don't be afraid to speak up." > I've met many blind people with many different mobility instructors. None of > them suggested calling the cops! > I really hope that idea is not used much because the last thing we need is > cops involved rescuing blind people. > I notice that people ask where you're going. Personally, I do not want to > reveal that. So I ask questions to re-establish orientation. For instance, > what building is over there and point to the right. Or say, What is the next > street? What is the next intersection? or What address am I near? > > Since I usually cannot read signs, having someone tell me what is around > helps me get reoriented. > > > But, I wonder something. > What if you're traveling in an area with few pedestrians, such as a > neighborhood? What would you do then? > I suppose you could ask someone if they are pulling into their driveway, but > waiting for that could be a while. > I think its wise to have a cell phone with you when your out so you can call > for information or help. Like in my area, you can call a number to see when > the next bus will arrive. We cannot read signs and the bus schedules, so I > find this service helpful. > You could also call other people you know for directions, or to pick you up > if really needed. But, I'd say do not get the cops involved unless you feel > lost, you are in an unsafe place, and/or people are doing things to you that > make you feel unsafe. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:44 AM > To: NFB > Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost > > Ok, bare with me here for a moment, and excuse my language. > When you get lost do you > a: call the cops and ask them where you are, and waste money in the process? > b: wave down a cop when you don’t know if one is near you? > c: wave your hands around and make other blind people look like jak asses in > the eyes of an already general populous who think blind people are incapable > of doing anything for themselves? > d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try and > ask someone on the street for directions > e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. > I ask this because I know of someone who was tought to do what a, b, and c > say to do. I was tought by two outstanding mobility instructors to do what > d says, and tought myself e. I want to know what you all out their think. > I personally think that making blind people look like helpless jack asses > and wasting money on unesesary calls is pointless. I’m almost sure most > mobility instructors would teach their students to do what choice d asks. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 03:00:26 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:00:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and judgment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, When deciding whether or not to get help with something, I try to base my decision on the answer to two questions: (1) is the help actually helpful; that is, does it allow me to do what I have to do in a more convenient way? and (2) does helping me inconvenience the other person doing the helping? If the answer is "yes" to question 1 and "no" to question 2, then I have no problem requesting or accepting help-blindness-related or otherwise. But if accepting help doesn't offer me added convenience or if the helper would be inconvenienced by their action, I will generally find another way to do what I need to do without help. As Dr. Jernigan wrote, independence is the ability to go where we want to go, etc. without inconvenience to ourselves and others. As we have discussed, there are times when accepting the kind of help sighted strangers want to give-being led or grabbed-is actually anti-helpful. There are other times when waiting for a sighted guide or other assistant is inconvenient-like if we want to go out somewhere but whoever normally gives us a ride is at work, etc. In these situations, being dependent on someone else costs us opportunities. Similarly, there are times when providing help is inconvenient for the helper-like if they are guiding or driving us somewhere that's out of the way for them. Because of this, I will often offer to just take verbal directions from someone rather than being guided so the person doesn't have to go out of their way unnecessarily. In other situations, like if the helper is going the same direction, offering guidance doesn't impose on them. I think it is important for us to develop the skills needed to do things on our own when taking assistance is inconvenient to ourselves or others. However, there is nothing wrong with taking help if the help does not inconvenience either party, or if the inconvenience is minor compared to the benefit gained from the help. Best, Arielle On 11/11/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Jedi, > > Since you started... This segways nicely into a discussion I've long > wanted to open up. > > First, everyone, blind, sighted, everyone, needs to recognize that > people need help sometimes. There's nothing wrong with asking for help, > but we also have to understand that blindness doesn't mean we need more > help than anyone else. I've always been very independent, and when I > lost my sight, it really irritated me that so many people thought I > required so much help. When I was diagnosed with tachycardia and severe > low blood pressure, it was difficult that there were times I literally > couldn't do much physically. I've always been very active, and before my > medications were regulated, I had a lot of difficulty just walking > because I felt so weak. Requiring assistance to move around had nothing > to do with my blindness, but I needed assistance because of my health. I > still have episodes where I feel weak enough to the point where I may > need an arm to lean on, but personally, I don't take sighted guide > because of my blindness. And on a side note, when I do need such > assistance, I don't care if the person is sighted or blind, as long as I > have the support necessary is all I care about. I guess I shouldn't so > much refer to it as sighted guide but simply a guide or support. Seeing > as I'm predominantly with my hubby, and he is blind, he is usually the > one who helps me out during these episodes, which goes to show I can't > call it sighted guide. Smile. > > Now, I agree with you to an extent because I see so many blind people > complain about society and how we're not treated as equals or like we > can be independent. All this is said while I observe said people taking > sighted assistance more than is necessary. I try to not judge people I > don't know because I have no clue what a persons life is like. Such as > myself, who when having my weak blood pressure episodes could be judged > as a blind person always taking assistance, but if you knew me, you'd > know that my reasoning for a guide of any kind is because of health > related concerns. But I know plenty of people who have no reason to use > sighted assistance for every little thing. It's tough to argue our > independence and capabilities when we rarely choose to truly be > independent. > > It makes my life difficult when I have to deal with people who have > encountered blind people who not only constantly ask for sighted help, > but expect it. It's really annoying to have to explain and demand > independence from people who are only responding based on past > experience with other blind people. As I keep saying, we can teach > sighted people to treat us as equals and accept our abilities, but if > blind people don't believe this, it negates the work done with our > sighted peers. There was a security guard on my campus who every > freaking time she saw me, she asked if I needed help, and in the > beginning would do the arm grab. I found out that another blind student > on campus frequently requested sighted guides to get from class to > class, which ended up being the job designated to the security office. I > discovered who said person was, and I knew them quite well, and they had > no true reason requesting sighted guide as they could have learned to > get around campus on their own, but they summarily refused to even > consider the idea. Eventually the security guard realized I didn't > require this kind of help and they just greeted me like they did anyone > else when running into me, but based on prior experience, it was assumed > I needed similar help. This is just as much a blind persons fault as it > is a sighted persons. > > Trust me, it can be scary doing things independently for anyone, but > when we choose to overcome fears and anxieties, we grow familiar with > negotiating situations on our own. Eventually we become accustomed to > navigating the world nonvisually, and people, not everyone, but many, > observe our independence and will recognize we don't require help all > the time. > > However, to make snap judgments and generalizations does nothing to help > us either. I'd also like to point out to those who believe in the all or > nothing method of travel that years ago Dr. Jernigan addressed some > students as to why he chose to use sighted guide in certain situations. > His response can be found on the NFB website. While we should act as > independently as we can, there are times when we should feel no shame in > requesting assistance. It's about efficiency. This is why NFB presidents > use sighted guides during convention so they can efficiently navigate > from place to place especially among so many other people careening > about. It's not used all the time, or most of the time, but it's > available if needed. > > That all being said, most of us can operate quite fine on our own. I > don't have the time to wait for a sighted person to help me get stuff > done, nor do I have a sighted person in my life who wants to be at my > beck and call. Independent travel is something that I expect in blind > people, and until we all understand this, we don't have much of a chance > to ever be viewed as equals in society. > > Those who know me well, both sighted and blind, know I don't like having > to ask for help for any reason. Sometimes we have no choice in the > matter such as when a health issue is involved, but I don't appreciate > judgmental attitudes from the blind or sighted world, which by the way > is the same world. > > I live with my blind husband, and we live on our own. We take the bus to > work, school, the market, doctor visits, etc., we go out to movies and > theatre and restaurants, and we don't have sighted people there to > assist whenever we feel the whim. And when out with sighted people, we > still do things for ourselves such as go to the bathroom, walk, order > food, whatever. I think the more we do things independently, the more we > show people how capable we are. > > And when I said classmates let me lead the way in asking for help, I > simply meant that they stopped asking all the time if I needed help. If > I did, I'd ask, and they understood this. I presented myself with > confidence and did what was expected of other classmates. I didn't > expect, or ask for, special treatment unless necessary such as taking > exams accessibly. I negotiated campus with no help, and in fact, usually > knew my way around better than a lot of sighted classmates. Funny story, > while in conversation with fellow classmates, I made a comment about the > Weber Fine Arts building, to which one of my classmates responded by > saying, "I don't know what building that is," and to which I replied, > "It's the building you are sitting in currently." giggle. I figured > school out just like everyone else has too, and I didn't believe myself > less capable or less efficient than anyone else. To be treated as > equals, we have to act and think like we are equal. > > We should be expected to do what anyone else is expected to do. I don't > really know why we think we are expected to go beyond those > expectations, within reason of course. I mean, should I start serving > myself at sit-down restaurants because technically a sighted person is > doing it for me. Should I walk everywhere in a city with more than one > million people, because a driver on a bus is sighted after all. I mean, > where is the line drawn for some of us? Apparently our independence is > compromised because we ask for help no matter the situation. We > certainly need to be aware of our independence and how we present > ourselves in public especially if we claim to want equality, but we also > have to live our lives and not to always be making points but for > ourselves. A part of being equals and accepted as such, is to understand > that we can, and will, ask for help at times and there's nothing wrong > with this. It can be a fine balance, but we can't live our life thinking > we can never, ever ask for help, sighted or otherwise, and if we take > help, we've compromised our independence and the independence of blind > people everywhere. I can't do a lot physically on the few occasions I > suffer a low blood pressure, so I may take an arm if available. Since > some may view this as equating to all blind people must need sighted > help, it would be better for me to suffer and struggle around due to > weakness and fatigue? It's ludacris. Or if we are in a situation where > sighted assistance may make for a smoother transaction, we should be > viewed as inefficient just as long as we're viewed as doing it alone? > What's the better image? I'm 30 and no longer have the F-ing time to > constantly have to prove a point, to sighted people or blind people > alike. Judging and assuming come in different forms, let's not forget > this. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:44:05 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help > Message-ID: b77ac139-7925-43a6-9b75-e6551c43e223 at samobile.net > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > Bridgit, > > I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, walking > alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think those > blindness attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with you that our > actions mean a lot; we can't claim that we want to be independent > travelers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. I'm sorry to > say that this is one of the few situations in which we can't have our > cake and eat it, too. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Nov 15 03:19:45 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:19:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's up again, because I'm getting all of the old messages. Blessings, Joshua On 11/13/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > I got that message too. They're probably > reconstructing the site or something. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:54 AM > To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org ; nabs-l at nfbnet.org ; gui-talk at nfbnet.org ; > NFBWaTlk at NNFBNet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? > > hello everybody, > > I'm not sure what's up with teh NFB website. I tried to go to it and I got > an error page saying, "page not found." this also impacted the NFB newsline > (r) web site, and NFB Newsline Online Website as well. > If you know when the web sites will be restored please let me know, > otherwise, just a heads up for you. > > Sincerely, > Humberto > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brlsurfer at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 02:32:03 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:32:03 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Message-ID: <4ec1cf3c.d421340a.6ff0.ffff8910@mx.google.com> Hi Ashley, Probably about a little less than 5 minutes. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: That's neat! Thanks for shareing! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of vejas Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Hi. My computer teacher from CSB told me about an amazing site that can convert your documents in a matter of minutes! This site converts PDF files into DOC and TXT files, as well as other types. It's called Robo-Braille. Here's what you would want to do to turn a PDF into a DOC: 1. Send the e-mail !convert at robobraille.org. For your andbject, type in doc, then attach the PDF file on to your e-mail. Don't write anything in the message; just send it. Soon after (5-minus minutes, on average, I would say), Robo-Braille will send you the DOC file as an attachment. It's awesome and requires no upgrades. I hope you like it and find it handy. Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g mail.com From agrima at nbp.org Tue Nov 15 14:29:14 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:29:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] November Book Club Selection: 'Twas the Night Before Christmas Message-ID: <005c01cca3a2$f4150730$dc3f1590$@org> November 2011 Book Club Selection 'Twas the Night Before Christmas: Or Account of a Visit from St. Nicholas Author Anonymous Print/braille edition, $8.99 In contracted braille Ages 4-8 Start a new holiday tradition! Thanks to the anonymous publication of the poem "Account of a Visit from St. Nicholas" in the Troy Sentinel in 1823, the traditionally stern St. Nick was transformed into the sleigh-riding, chimney diving, jolly old elf we now call Santa Claus. This gorgeously made hardcover book captures the mystery, surprise and anticipation of what many children consider the most magical night of the year. A perfect gift. To order or read more about this book online, visit http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/BC1111-TWASNIGHT.html Also available soon: The Borrowed Hanukkah Latkes, $6.99 http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/LATKE.html And don't miss out on our print/braille book sale! http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/holidaysale.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . From TAnnis at afb.net Tue Nov 15 15:20:31 2011 From: TAnnis at afb.net (Tara Annis) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:20:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings across to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty in their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, do lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and a sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one of the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues to be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class where advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it is necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is displayed nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their half of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing to do their half. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 15 15:40:04 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:40:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter In-Reply-To: <4ec1cf3c.d421340a.6ff0.ffff8910@mx.google.com> References: <4ec1cf3c.d421340a.6ff0.ffff8910@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <52BD25E38B154EFE9C8FBC586B0A18B6@OwnerPC> thanks Vejas, that is quick! -----Original Message----- From: vejas Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 9:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Hi Ashley, Probably about a little less than 5 minutes. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: That's neat! Thanks for shareing! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of vejas Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Hi. My computer teacher from CSB told me about an amazing site that can convert your documents in a matter of minutes! This site converts PDF files into DOC and TXT files, as well as other types. It's called Robo-Braille. Here's what you would want to do to turn a PDF into a DOC: 1. Send the e-mail !convert at robobraille.org. For your andbject, type in doc, then attach the PDF file on to your e-mail. Don't write anything in the message; just send it. Soon after (5-minus minutes, on average, I would say), Robo-Braille will send you the DOC file as an attachment. It's awesome and requires no upgrades. I hope you like it and find it handy. Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 15 15:41:17 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:41:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: yes its fixed! -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 10:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? It's up again, because I'm getting all of the old messages. Blessings, Joshua On 11/13/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > I got that message too. They're probably > reconstructing the site or something. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:54 AM > To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org ; nabs-l at nfbnet.org ; gui-talk at nfbnet.org ; > NFBWaTlk at NNFBNet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? > > hello everybody, > > I'm not sure what's up with teh NFB website. I tried to go to it and I got > an error page saying, "page not found." this also impacted the NFB > newsline > (r) web site, and NFB Newsline Online Website as well. > If you know when the web sites will be restored please let me know, > otherwise, just a heads up for you. > > Sincerely, > Humberto > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 19:10:37 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:10:37 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? In-Reply-To: <4ec1c7da.4723340a.7667.7f58@mx.google.com> References: <4ec1c7da.4723340a.7667.7f58@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <32893972841649E7A7845A33A3660DC9@userPC> Hi Chris, I am going to try to friend you! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 6:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? Hey Preston, Welcome to the list! Glad to see you here! I had a lot of fun at the state convention, how did you like it? Email me off list so we can catch up! For everybody else, Preston is a fellow Marylander and is (I believe) a new member of the Maryland Association of Blind Students and NABS. He went to BISM's Independence 2011 this year. BTW, Preston, and anyone else on the list who would like to friend me, my Facebook page is at facebook.com/dotkid if you want to friend me! Talk to you soon! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Preston Gaylor wrote: I know that ACB radio advertises about products and services for the blind. Alena On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Jewel wrote: Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I wanted to get some ideas from you all. How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the audience, and what format they are in? Thhank you for any input you can provide. ~Jewel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts 2282%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40 hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 17:07:47 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:07:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-teaching Nemeth code Message-ID: Dear all, Next semester I'll be taking my first mathematics course as a blind student (I took college algebra as a sighted student years ago). My workbook will be available to me in Nemeth Braille, and I want to be sure I knowe the Nemeth code well before next semester. I prefer not to go with Hadley because I don't like to do all the assignments and such. I'd like recommendations for websites, books, and the like for teaching myself the Nemeth Braille code. I already have the Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics and Science Notation. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! ~Jewel From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 15 17:23:07 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:23:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: <6366FDF1EA604D578DCC0D9DC645CE32@OwnerPC> Tara, great post. And yes if that class in nonverbals was taught, it would help. That is true, did not think of that; sighted people first show annoyance or irritation via body language. It sure is fifty - fifty. We have to educate but they need to be able to learn -----Original Message----- From: Tara Annis Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings across to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty in their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, do lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and a sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one of the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues to be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class where advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it is necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is displayed nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their half of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing to do their half. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 15 17:30:48 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:30:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-teaching Nemeth code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hmm. check NLS. -----Original Message----- From: Jewel Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:07 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Self-teaching Nemeth code Dear all, Next semester I'll be taking my first mathematics course as a blind student (I took college algebra as a sighted student years ago). My workbook will be available to me in Nemeth Braille, and I want to be sure I knowe the Nemeth code well before next semester. I prefer not to go with Hadley because I don't like to do all the assignments and such. I'd like recommendations for websites, books, and the like for teaching myself the Nemeth Braille code. I already have the Nemeth Braille Code for Mathematics and Science Notation. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! ~Jewel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From daviddod at buffalo.edu Tue Nov 15 18:24:08 2011 From: daviddod at buffalo.edu (David Dodge) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:24:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost In-Reply-To: <5F579FC97AA94AD2AC0C6C043A937925@AnjelinaPC> References: <995F8FC118404CE2ABF6B32ACF1F2699@OwnerPC> <5F579FC97AA94AD2AC0C6C043A937925@AnjelinaPC> Message-ID: I agree. The first step would be to try and calm down in order to see if I could figure out where I was. Then, if after giving myself some time to figure it out I could not ascertain where I was I would go into a business and ask someone or simply ask someone around me if there are people around me. I would only ask emergency professionals if it was in fact an emergency. David ---------------------------------- David Dodge Doctoral Degree Granting Institutions Rep. State University of New York Student Assembly English Major University at Buffalo 306 Clemens Hall Buffalo, NY 14260 daviddod at buffalo.edu On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Anjelina wrote: > I'd first try to figure out where I was and if I really felt lost I'd find > someone to ask. I wouldn't use the first few options unless I was in an > emergency situation > > -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:49 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost > > no, call the cops as a last resort. I'd say only call after you have tried > getting other help from pedestrians and business people and if you feel > unsafe. > Ask someone for directions; go to a store if you have to. > > -----Original Message----- From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:44 AM > To: NFB > Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost > > Ok, bare with me here for a moment, and excuse my language. > When you get lost do you > a: call the cops and ask them where you are, and waste money in the > process? > b: wave down a cop when you don’t know if one is near you? > c: wave your hands around and make other blind people look like jak asses > in > the eyes of an already general populous who think blind people are > incapable > of doing anything for themselves? > d: go in to a business and ask someone where you are, or just simply try > and > ask someone on the street for directions > e: try to get your bearings together and find your own way. > I ask this because I know of someone who was tought to do what a, b, and c > say to do. I was tought by two outstanding mobility instructors to do what > d says, and tought myself e. I want to know what you all out their think. > I personally think that making blind people look like helpless jack asses > and wasting money on unesesary calls is pointless. I’m almost sure most > mobility instructors would teach their students to do what choice d asks. > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > anjelinac26%40gmail.com > > > Anjelina > > ______________________________**_________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/**options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/** > daviddod%40buffalo.edu > From portillo.jim at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 20:47:15 2011 From: portillo.jim at gmail.com (Jim Portillo) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:47:15 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook question regarding photo albums Message-ID: <4ec2cfdf.0806440a.1f51.ffffd019@mx.google.com> Howdy howdy! Just wondering if any of you Facebook users have any positive experiences in creating individual photo albums and then uploading photos into those albums. I'd especially like to hear from totally blind users who have done it with a screen reader. I've been trying, by going to the Create album feature in the "Add Photo" section, but I'm not really doing something right. I have uploaded photos mainly via the m.facebook.com site, but I have a series of photos I'd like to upload that all belong together in an album. Any ideas? Jim From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 21:24:55 2011 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:24:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook question regarding photo albums In-Reply-To: <4ec2cfdf.0806440a.1f51.ffffd019@mx.google.com> References: <4ec2cfdf.0806440a.1f51.ffffd019@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I have not created an album since the last website change, so this may not be as accesible since I have noticed a decrease in accessibility in other aspects of the website, but I will tell you what I have done. The best case scenario is to know what order your pictures are in. I have uploaded pictures to my computer and had someone rename the pictures with enough of a description so I would know what they are. Then, you create the album. You have to enter a title, and then on the next page, you will be able to upload pictures. You need to use the simple uploader. You will only be able to upload 5 pictures at a time, but it is the accessible option. After uploading 5 pictures, they wil show up with a coupld of check boxes like, make this the album cover, or delete this picture, and there will be an edit box to write a picture caption. I typically ignore all of this stuff, and click the link to upload more pictures until I have uploaded all of the pictures for an album. The pictures will appear in the order in which you uploaded them, so after I am finished, I return to the folder where my pictures are stored, and use the title of each picture as a guide to write the caption for that picture. You can then choose your album cover and finish. There is not a way to tag people, so I either get someone to help me or encourage my friends to tag themselves. I know uploading iPhone pictures is accessible, so that could be another method. I don't think you can rename your pictures, so if you're uploading multiple pictures, you'll have to keep track of which picture number corresponds to each picture. I hope this helps. I really enjoy making albums and sharing my pictures although I don't do it often. Cindy On 11/15/11, Jim Portillo wrote: > Howdy howdy! > > > > Just wondering if any of you Facebook users have any positive experiences in > creating individual photo albums and then uploading photos into those > albums. I'd especially like to hear from totally blind users who have done > it with a screen reader. > > I've been trying, by going to the Create album feature in the "Add Photo" > section, but I'm not really doing something right. > > I have uploaded photos mainly via the m.facebook.com site, but I have a > series of photos I'd like to upload that all belong together in an album. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Jim > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 21:27:57 2011 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:27:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook question regarding photo albums In-Reply-To: References: <4ec2cfdf.0806440a.1f51.ffffd019@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Oh, and I forgot to make it clear that I only have experience creating albums with the regular website. I like the mobile website, but I hate looking at pictures, because even if they have captions, they do not show up on the mobile site. However, you can only accessibly make something your profile picture via the mobile site. Cindy On 11/15/11, Cindy Bennett wrote: > I have not created an album since the last website change, so this may > not be as accesible since I have noticed a decrease in accessibility > in other aspects of the website, but I will tell you what I have done. > > The best case scenario is to know what order your pictures are in. I > have uploaded pictures to my computer and had someone rename the > pictures with enough of a description so I would know what they are. > > Then, you create the album. You have to enter a title, and then on the > next page, you will be able to upload pictures. You need to use the > simple uploader. You will only be able to upload 5 pictures at a time, > but it is the accessible option. After uploading 5 pictures, they wil > show up with a coupld of check boxes like, make this the album cover, > or delete this picture, and there will be an edit box to write a > picture caption. I typically ignore all of this stuff, and click the > link to upload more pictures until I have uploaded all of the pictures > for an album. The pictures will appear in the order in which you > uploaded them, so after I am finished, I return to the folder where my > pictures are stored, and use the title of each picture as a guide to > write the caption for that picture. You can then choose your album > cover and finish. There is not a way to tag people, so I either get > someone to help me or encourage my friends to tag themselves. > > I know uploading iPhone pictures is accessible, so that could be > another method. I don't think you can rename your pictures, so if > you're uploading multiple pictures, you'll have to keep track of which > picture number corresponds to each picture. > > I hope this helps. I really enjoy making albums and sharing my > pictures although I don't do it often. > > Cindy > > On 11/15/11, Jim Portillo wrote: >> Howdy howdy! >> >> >> >> Just wondering if any of you Facebook users have any positive experiences >> in >> creating individual photo albums and then uploading photos into those >> albums. I'd especially like to hear from totally blind users who have >> done >> it with a screen reader. >> >> I've been trying, by going to the Create album feature in the "Add Photo" >> section, but I'm not really doing something right. >> >> I have uploaded photos mainly via the m.facebook.com site, but I have a >> series of photos I'd like to upload that all belong together in an album. >> >> >> >> Any ideas? >> >> >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > 828.989.5383 > -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 21:34:52 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:34:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers use, not only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what we do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens who were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted people think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes blind people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not saying that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people who look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind people also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they want to be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people think of you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true to yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing with stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible to make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the sighted like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get this blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are dazing off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it looks to sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind people go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just some exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of nonverbal comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows disinterest, bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your body language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not see the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids with no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. I had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance camp as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the way and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing loudly at dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was mentally. Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt bad for asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. The placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. Many blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to say. Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look either angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal icebirg, and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are viewed. Also you are right about understanding the body language of others, and even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being said silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different energy feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a person says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all comunication is nonverbal. -----Original Message----- From: Tara Annis Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings across to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty in their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, do lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and a sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one of the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues to be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class where advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it is necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is displayed nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their half of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing to do their half. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 15 22:05:13 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:05:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class Message-ID: Hi all, What has been your experience taking mainstream computer classes at a college? I am considering one. Its called something like introduction to computer concepts and applications. It focuses on the MS office suite as well as computer knowledge like terms, hardware, software, components of the computer, things like that. I heard its half lecture or maybe more than half lecture and the rest hands on in the lab working on a computer. The lecture and book cover the computer knowledge/terms/theory and hands on teaches Word, Powerpoint, internet, and some database which is Access, although I’m not sure as the catolog did not specify. How could the professor teach me these things? Explain computer commands with Office short cut keys? This class is required for AA degree students but I’m taking it to get more computer knowledge not only about MS office but about computer operations in general. They will install jaws 12 upon request, but professors know nothing about jaws, other than clicking the icon to turn it on. So I’m on my own for jaws commands. Maybe I can work with the instructor in office hours but I’d like to get the most out of class. I know the past blind students worked closely with the professor for help. Ashley From brlsurfer at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 23:14:08 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:14:08 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Message-ID: <4ec2f25b.051f340a.6397.ffffc36d@mx.google.com> Oh and one more thing: the amount of time it takes depends on file size. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: That's neat! Thanks for shareing! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of vejas Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Hi. My computer teacher from CSB told me about an amazing site that can convert your documents in a matter of minutes! This site converts PDF files into DOC and TXT files, as well as other types. It's called Robo-Braille. Here's what you would want to do to turn a PDF into a DOC: 1. Send the e-mail !convert at robobraille.org. For your andbject, type in doc, then attach the PDF file on to your e-mail. Don't write anything in the message; just send it. Soon after (5-minus minutes, on average, I would say), Robo-Braille will send you the DOC file as an attachment. It's awesome and requires no upgrades. I hope you like it and find it handy. Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g mail.com From cumbiambera2005 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 23:35:48 2011 From: cumbiambera2005 at gmail.com (Ashley) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:35:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook question regarding photo albums In-Reply-To: References: <4ec2cfdf.0806440a.1f51.ffffd019@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hello, I've done it before, but I haven't done it since the site change. I believe Cindy said it all though, much more clearly than I could have explained it myself. But since the site has become less accessible, I'm not sure how this would work now. I never bothered with captions though because when it came time to save them, they weren't visible for some reason. Any idea about that? On 11/15/11, Cindy Bennett wrote: > Oh, and I forgot to make it clear that I only have experience creating > albums with the regular website. I like the mobile website, but I hate > looking at pictures, because even if they have captions, they do not > show up on the mobile site. However, you can only accessibly make > something your profile picture via the mobile site. > > Cindy > > On 11/15/11, Cindy Bennett wrote: >> I have not created an album since the last website change, so this may >> not be as accesible since I have noticed a decrease in accessibility >> in other aspects of the website, but I will tell you what I have done. >> >> The best case scenario is to know what order your pictures are in. I >> have uploaded pictures to my computer and had someone rename the >> pictures with enough of a description so I would know what they are. >> >> Then, you create the album. You have to enter a title, and then on the >> next page, you will be able to upload pictures. You need to use the >> simple uploader. You will only be able to upload 5 pictures at a time, >> but it is the accessible option. After uploading 5 pictures, they wil >> show up with a coupld of check boxes like, make this the album cover, >> or delete this picture, and there will be an edit box to write a >> picture caption. I typically ignore all of this stuff, and click the >> link to upload more pictures until I have uploaded all of the pictures >> for an album. The pictures will appear in the order in which you >> uploaded them, so after I am finished, I return to the folder where my >> pictures are stored, and use the title of each picture as a guide to >> write the caption for that picture. You can then choose your album >> cover and finish. There is not a way to tag people, so I either get >> someone to help me or encourage my friends to tag themselves. >> >> I know uploading iPhone pictures is accessible, so that could be >> another method. I don't think you can rename your pictures, so if >> you're uploading multiple pictures, you'll have to keep track of which >> picture number corresponds to each picture. >> >> I hope this helps. I really enjoy making albums and sharing my >> pictures although I don't do it often. >> >> Cindy >> >> On 11/15/11, Jim Portillo wrote: >>> Howdy howdy! >>> >>> >>> >>> Just wondering if any of you Facebook users have any positive experiences >>> in >>> creating individual photo albums and then uploading photos into those >>> albums. I'd especially like to hear from totally blind users who have >>> done >>> it with a screen reader. >>> >>> I've been trying, by going to the Create album feature in the "Add Photo" >>> section, but I'm not really doing something right. >>> >>> I have uploaded photos mainly via the m.facebook.com site, but I have a >>> series of photos I'd like to upload that all belong together in an album. >>> >>> >>> >>> Any ideas? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> 828.989.5383 >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > 828.989.5383 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cumbiambera2005%40gmail.com > From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Wed Nov 16 01:01:01 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:01:01 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook question regarding photo albums References: <4ec2cfdf.0806440a.1f51.ffffd019@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <84337258183B403CA6A783314F634920@stanford.edu> Do you know if anyone has tried to work with Facebook to get them to fix the accessibility problems? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Bennett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook question regarding photo albums > Oh, and I forgot to make it clear that I only have experience creating > albums with the regular website. I like the mobile website, but I hate > looking at pictures, because even if they have captions, they do not > show up on the mobile site. However, you can only accessibly make > something your profile picture via the mobile site. > > Cindy > > On 11/15/11, Cindy Bennett wrote: >> I have not created an album since the last website change, so this may >> not be as accesible since I have noticed a decrease in accessibility >> in other aspects of the website, but I will tell you what I have done. >> >> The best case scenario is to know what order your pictures are in. I >> have uploaded pictures to my computer and had someone rename the >> pictures with enough of a description so I would know what they are. >> >> Then, you create the album. You have to enter a title, and then on the >> next page, you will be able to upload pictures. You need to use the >> simple uploader. You will only be able to upload 5 pictures at a time, >> but it is the accessible option. After uploading 5 pictures, they wil >> show up with a coupld of check boxes like, make this the album cover, >> or delete this picture, and there will be an edit box to write a >> picture caption. I typically ignore all of this stuff, and click the >> link to upload more pictures until I have uploaded all of the pictures >> for an album. The pictures will appear in the order in which you >> uploaded them, so after I am finished, I return to the folder where my >> pictures are stored, and use the title of each picture as a guide to >> write the caption for that picture. You can then choose your album >> cover and finish. There is not a way to tag people, so I either get >> someone to help me or encourage my friends to tag themselves. >> >> I know uploading iPhone pictures is accessible, so that could be >> another method. I don't think you can rename your pictures, so if >> you're uploading multiple pictures, you'll have to keep track of which >> picture number corresponds to each picture. >> >> I hope this helps. I really enjoy making albums and sharing my >> pictures although I don't do it often. >> >> Cindy >> >> On 11/15/11, Jim Portillo wrote: >>> Howdy howdy! >>> >>> >>> >>> Just wondering if any of you Facebook users have any positive >>> experiences >>> in >>> creating individual photo albums and then uploading photos into those >>> albums. I'd especially like to hear from totally blind users who have >>> done >>> it with a screen reader. >>> >>> I've been trying, by going to the Create album feature in the "Add >>> Photo" >>> section, but I'm not really doing something right. >>> >>> I have uploaded photos mainly via the m.facebook.com site, but I have a >>> series of photos I'd like to upload that all belong together in an >>> album. >>> >>> >>> >>> Any ideas? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> 828.989.5383 >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > 828.989.5383 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Wed Nov 16 01:04:05 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:04:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class References: Message-ID: <08524E7AAC254CF79C7C2AA8440A4D20@stanford.edu> As well as the regular course material, could they purchase some of the guides that are made specifically for JAWS users? I know that there are at least ones for Word and Powerpoint because I used them myself. That being said, though, I am not sure if they exist for the most recent versions of the office programs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:05 PM Subject: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class > Hi all, > What has been your experience taking mainstream computer classes at a > college? I am considering one. Its called something like introduction to > computer concepts and applications. It focuses on the MS office suite as > well as computer knowledge like terms, hardware, software, components of > the computer, things like that. I heard its half lecture or maybe more > than half lecture and the rest hands on in the lab working on a computer. > The lecture and book cover the computer knowledge/terms/theory and hands > on teaches Word, Powerpoint, internet, and some database which is Access, > although I’m not sure as the catolog did not specify. > > > How could the professor teach me these things? Explain computer commands > with Office short cut keys? This class is required for AA degree students > but I’m taking it to get more computer knowledge not only about MS office > but about computer operations in general. They will install jaws 12 upon > request, but professors know nothing about jaws, other than clicking the > icon to turn it on. So I’m on my own for jaws commands. > Maybe I can work with the instructor in office hours but I’d like to get > the most out of class. > > I know the past blind students worked closely with the professor for help. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com > From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:23:34 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:23:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class In-Reply-To: <08524E7AAC254CF79C7C2AA8440A4D20@stanford.edu> References: <08524E7AAC254CF79C7C2AA8440A4D20@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Hey I am taking this class right now. My teacher talks about the book in class and we do our work at home through black board. It is fill in the blanck and multiple answers. We do have to do some things that requier you to read the book and do what it tells you to and turn it in. I get help from the learning center for this because their is visual stuff but, there is not a lot of this. It is easy over all. Try to talk with your teacher at the beginning of the semester. On 11/15/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > As well as the regular course material, could they purchase some of the > guides that are made specifically for JAWS users? I know that there are at > least ones for Word and Powerpoint because I used them myself. That being > said, though, I am not sure if they exist for the most recent versions of > the office programs. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:05 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class > > >> Hi all, >> What has been your experience taking mainstream computer classes at a >> college? I am considering one. Its called something like introduction to >> computer concepts and applications. It focuses on the MS office suite as >> well as computer knowledge like terms, hardware, software, components of >> the computer, things like that. I heard its half lecture or maybe more >> than half lecture and the rest hands on in the lab working on a computer. >> The lecture and book cover the computer knowledge/terms/theory and hands >> on teaches Word, Powerpoint, internet, and some database which is Access, >> although I’m not sure as the catolog did not specify. >> >> >> How could the professor teach me these things? Explain computer commands >> with Office short cut keys? This class is required for AA degree students >> but I’m taking it to get more computer knowledge not only about MS office >> but about computer operations in general. They will install jaws 12 upon >> request, but professors know nothing about jaws, other than clicking the >> icon to turn it on. So I’m on my own for jaws commands. >> Maybe I can work with the instructor in office hours but I’d like to get >> the most out of class. >> >> I know the past blind students worked closely with the professor for help. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From clb5590 at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:46:47 2011 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:46:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook question regarding photo albums In-Reply-To: <84337258183B403CA6A783314F634920@stanford.edu> References: <4ec2cfdf.0806440a.1f51.ffffd019@mx.google.com> <84337258183B403CA6A783314F634920@stanford.edu> Message-ID: If you were on the mobile site, then that may be why you aren't seeing your captions, because they don't show up on the mobile site, but if you weren't, then I don't know. Cindy On 11/15/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > Do you know if anyone has tried to work with Facebook to get them to fix the > accessibility problems? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cindy Bennett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:27 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook question regarding photo albums > > >> Oh, and I forgot to make it clear that I only have experience creating >> albums with the regular website. I like the mobile website, but I hate >> looking at pictures, because even if they have captions, they do not >> show up on the mobile site. However, you can only accessibly make >> something your profile picture via the mobile site. >> >> Cindy >> >> On 11/15/11, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>> I have not created an album since the last website change, so this may >>> not be as accesible since I have noticed a decrease in accessibility >>> in other aspects of the website, but I will tell you what I have done. >>> >>> The best case scenario is to know what order your pictures are in. I >>> have uploaded pictures to my computer and had someone rename the >>> pictures with enough of a description so I would know what they are. >>> >>> Then, you create the album. You have to enter a title, and then on the >>> next page, you will be able to upload pictures. You need to use the >>> simple uploader. You will only be able to upload 5 pictures at a time, >>> but it is the accessible option. After uploading 5 pictures, they wil >>> show up with a coupld of check boxes like, make this the album cover, >>> or delete this picture, and there will be an edit box to write a >>> picture caption. I typically ignore all of this stuff, and click the >>> link to upload more pictures until I have uploaded all of the pictures >>> for an album. The pictures will appear in the order in which you >>> uploaded them, so after I am finished, I return to the folder where my >>> pictures are stored, and use the title of each picture as a guide to >>> write the caption for that picture. You can then choose your album >>> cover and finish. There is not a way to tag people, so I either get >>> someone to help me or encourage my friends to tag themselves. >>> >>> I know uploading iPhone pictures is accessible, so that could be >>> another method. I don't think you can rename your pictures, so if >>> you're uploading multiple pictures, you'll have to keep track of which >>> picture number corresponds to each picture. >>> >>> I hope this helps. I really enjoy making albums and sharing my >>> pictures although I don't do it often. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> On 11/15/11, Jim Portillo wrote: >>>> Howdy howdy! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just wondering if any of you Facebook users have any positive >>>> experiences >>>> in >>>> creating individual photo albums and then uploading photos into those >>>> albums. I'd especially like to hear from totally blind users who have >>>> done >>>> it with a screen reader. >>>> >>>> I've been trying, by going to the Create album feature in the "Add >>>> Photo" >>>> section, but I'm not really doing something right. >>>> >>>> I have uploaded photos mainly via the m.facebook.com site, but I have a >>>> series of photos I'd like to upload that all belong together in an >>>> album. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Any ideas? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> 828.989.5383 >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> 828.989.5383 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:57:22 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:57:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Message-ID: <4ec318a8.4a5a340a.186c.ffff85e7@mx.google.com> I tried tagging people like it said in the emails Facebook sends me when someone taggs me (by typing the at sign and then the person's name,) but it didn't work. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy Bennett wrote: I agree that it can be used. However, my issues with it have been that it doesn't allways want to cooperate with Jaws when it comes to me trying to post stuff since what I'm posting comes up way than slower than my typing speed, I can't easily view my news feed, and there is just too much crap on the page in general. That last complaint may not be as valid since I'm what you might call a light user. I update my stattus and profile on a regular basis, but I'm not interested in any of the games, which I hear are not at all accessable. So, the mobile sight has allways been way better for me. But, we're all different, so what works for some won't work for all. On 11/4/2011 11:47 AM, Brice Smith wrote: The mobile site simply does not have the same functionality as the regular site. This is not a problem if you are a light user, but anyone needing to use more advanced functions on the site will have to use the regular version. That said, I really don't find the regular version all that inaccessible and don't understand the complaints about Facebook. While I don't use Facebook much as an individual, I manage and update the page for the organization I work with. I can post updates, link to other organizations and pages much like twitter within statuses, manage photos, and do just about everything else I'm required to complete. What problems are you all experiencing? Brice On 11/4/11, Hannah Chadwick wrote: I definitely agree with Rania. I'm sure there are more options and such on the regular facebook site, but I find the mobile one very accessible :) -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular site as a jaws user. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Excuse me if this is off topic. If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou s%40suddenl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 9%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma il.com -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:57:26 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:57:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities Message-ID: <4ec318ac.4a5a340a.186c.ffff85eb@mx.google.com> Hi=20Alexander, Yes,=20you=20are=20right=20about=20that.=20=20However,=20for=20other=20mino= rity=20 groups,=20it's=20on=20a=20much=20smaller=20scale,=20as=20more=20people=20ha= ve=20been=20 taught=20to=20accept=20them=20as=20equals=20and=20to=20not=20discriminate=20= against=20 them.=20=20Why?=20As=20I=20said=20in=20my=20original=20email,=20it=20is=20b= ecause=20these=20 beliefs=20are=20generally=20thought=20to=20be=20baseless=20and=20ridiculous= ,=20and=20 therefore=20are=20not=20widely=20believed.=20=20But=20we=20still=20have=20t= his=20 problem,=20and=20the=20misconceptions=20are=20very=20widely=20believed.=20= =20Why?=20 Because=20to=20the=20public,=20their=20belief=20in=20these=20misconceptions= =20is=20 not=20discrimination,=20but=20rather=20intellectual=20honesty.=20=20To=20th= em,=20 they're=20not=20discriminating;=20far=20from=20it.=20=20They're=20going=20o= ut=20of=20 their=20way=20to=20help=20us!=20Now=20how=20could=20that=20be=20discriminat= ion?=20 That's=20their=20thought=20process,=20in=20my=20opinion,=20and=20we=20know= =20that=20it=20 is=20discrimination. Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Alexander=20Castillo=20=20wrote: =20Perhaps,=20but=20there=20are=20"cross-platform"=20techniques=20that=20ot= her =20minorities=20are=20using=20that=20might=20help=20us=20out=20just=20as=20= well. =20Respectfully=20Submitted =20Original=20message: =20Julie, =20No,=20the=20discrimination=20faced=20by=20people=20of=20different=20race= s=20and =20ethnicities,=20or=20gender,=20religion,=20sexual=20orientation,=20etc.,= =20is=20a =20different=20type=20of=20discrimination=20that=20what=20people=20with=20 disabilities =20face.=20=20It=20also=20stems=20from=20different=20sources-=20usually=20t= his=20type=20 of =20discrimination=20grows=20out=20of=20hate=20as=20well=20as=20ignorance=20= and=20fear=20 of =20differences.=20=20Disability=20is=20feared=20too,=20but=20the=20general= =20idea,=20as=20 you =20state,=20is=20that=20many=20believe=20disabled=20people=20require=20cons= tant=20 assistance, =20and=20disabled=20people=20are=20owed=20a=20debt=20by=20society=20because= =20we=20lack=20 equality. =20It's=20not=20processed=20this=20way,=20but=20it=20stems=20from=20the=20p= erception=20 that =20disability=20equates=20to=20not=20being=20capable,=20less=20fortunate,=20= inferior. =20We=20can't=20place=20discriminatory=20behavior=20side=20by=20side=20when= =20it=20 comes=20to =20disability=20and=20other=20issues=20like=20race=20or=20sexual=20orientat= ion,=20but=20 we=20do =20share=20the=20fact=20that=20ignorance=20and=20antiquated=20perceptions=20= perpetuate =20ideas=20about=20people=20who=20are=20different.=20=20We=20can't=20try=20= to=20make=20the=20 issues =20exactly=20the=20same=20and=20hold=20the=20same=20measurements,=20but=20w= e=20can=20 understand =20how=20ignorance=20cultivates=20an=20environment=20lacking=20education=20= and =20infromation=20providing=20people=20with=20the=20concept=20of=20true=20eq= uality. =20Sincerely, =20Bridgit=20Kuenning-Pollpeter =20Read=20my=20blog=20at: =20http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ =20"History=20is=20not=20what=20happened;=20history=20is=20what=20was=20wri= tten=20 down." =20The=20Expected=20One-=20Kathleen=20McGowan =20Message:=204 =20Date:=20Sun,=206=20Nov=202011=2023:40:03=20-0600 =20From:=20Julie=20McGinnity=20 I'd send it to the regular tech support email, which is support at freedomscientific.com. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" Hi Joshua, Actually, I tell them the opposite, that they can go at their normal pace (a lot of them go slower than normal, which is annoying) and I will go a half step behind them. I think this is why it is important to still use your cane when you're going sighted guide. I know a lot of people who put their canes in pencil grip when guided, and I do that sometimes as well. This gives you an extra backup just in case the guide doesn't go around something or whatever and you might fall. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the silent grab scares me to death! Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask someone for information or directions, they will answer my question and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I had done it myself. Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're behind them than if you're in front of them? Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:57:31 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:57:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. Message-ID: <4ec318b1.4a5a340a.186c.ffff85f0@mx.google.com> Hi Arielle, I completely agree! If I ask someone to go sighted guide or they offer and I accept (which doesn't happen often,) and they grab my arm, I take my arm out of their hand by just bringing it around, then find their arm and get in the correct position. I then explain to them that how I'm holding them now is the correct sighted guide and ask them to let me take their arm next time. Of course, there are some people who just won't hear the correction and continue to do it! That's the most annoying thing ever, in my opinion! My 7th grade English teacher was one of those, and she even did the silent grab one time. I finally set up a meeting with her, my TVI and I to discuss this and the other ways in which she was helping me WAY too much. Then she finally changed it. She sometimes reverted back to the old (as I call it) backwards sighted guide, but it was easy for me to correct this. I know! I hate the silent grab! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman Ignasi, When companies are not very helpful, my strategy is to call them. I do this because if you send an email to a company with a problem or bug report, they can just hit delete and ignore your email, or just not read it. But if you call them, you've got a rep from the company right there, and if you give them a bug report or something, they have to listen to you and can't possibly ignore you. Also, at many companies including Humanware, Freedom Scientific, and RFBD (there are probably other companies, but those are the ones I know of,) calls are recorded for management to hear and make sure the customer service quality was adequate. So, if they give you some double-speak answer or try to dodge the question, you can tell them that the call is being recorded and that said recording will go to the company's management. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Ignasi Cambra wrote: Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just send it to the regular tech support? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:57:33 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:57:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4ec318b3.4a5a340a.186c.ffff85f3@mx.google.com> I know, Joshua! I have noticed that too when I've travelled down to your neck of the woods! * Smile! I actually have family in Arkansas (Hot Springs village,) so we go down there sometimes. People up here and north of Maryland don't pay attention sometimes, but I'm sure there's people who don't pay attention down there, and I know there's a lot of people who pay attention up here. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi Jedi and everyone. I've conditioned my dog to stop by beginning to stop myself when people grab me. Actually, I didn't need to condition her for when people grabe my left(dog) arm. She really does not like that. But now we're working on stopping when people grab my right arm as well. Generally my dog will just ignore people who grab my right arm, but this, as some of you might know, will just make the person tug harder in the direction they want you to go. About the smile: I think part of it is the fact that I am a rather smiley person. The other (and bigger) part of it is that I don't think we will get anywhere by being grumpy about it. Now if someone keeps grabbing me or doing other things even though I have told them repeatedly not to, that is a different story. I will get quite agrivated, but you can be firm, serious, and calmly polite all at once. I know there are different views on this. Why should we be smiley and happy when someone is truely being annoying to us? I don't think there is a law that says you have to be nice about it, but I believe that people are more likely to listen to me if I talk to them like a friend or an equal instead of their enemy just as I am more likely to listen to someone tell me about their life if they are telling me calmly how it is different from mine instead of being harsh and rude. I think I was just so surprised that she didn't listen to me that the words didn't even come. I'm so used to my other accompanist, who has learned that I do not need to be guided on the stage. I really do think that some sighted people take it as a matter of course that we need help, so they just help and don't even think twice about it. They are trained by the media or whatever that we need help with the various things we do, so it doesn't enter their mind that we might not want it or need it. This is not an excuse, but we need to understand this when dealing with them. We need to talk to them under the impression that they can and are willing to learn, that is, if we want to teach them. Of course I don't think every day should be an educational day on the abilities of the blind. Lol We have lives too. On 11/7/11, Jedi wrote: That's exactly what i'm interested in. I'm getting this book on encounter groups in the next week or two. I'll let you know how it goes as I read it. Respectfully Submitted Original message: I wonder if a society goes through different stages of "acceptance" for a minority group within that society. And if so, whether "you're pretty smart for a blind person" is one of those stages, just like in some other countries a few decades ago, people did make comments such as "you are pretty smart for a women", but now these countries have much better gender equity. The optimistic news is that advancements made by the other minority groups show that indeed this change can happen. The question is what are these stages, and what different strategies and tactics did other minority groups deploy at different stages to moved the society forward? Since Arielle used women as one of the comparison example, I should mention that the World Economic Forum just issued its flatest Global Gender Gap Ranking Report last week. The world ranking is a de facto illustration of different stages of gender equity in different countries, and perhaps the blind community can compare ourselves to these countries and see what stage we are at now, and what are some of the best practices women in those countries are using to move their societies to the next stage of acceptance and inclusion, as well as countries where the wrong tactics were used and hence are still stuck at the same stages for a decade. On 11/7/11, Julie McGinnity wrote: Hi all. I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are always in need of help. They take it as a matter of course that we are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves. Now I am speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people. I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem. White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the blind. When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the blind speak and advocate for themselves. I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than educating people I know. I have been called angry and prideful because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along, and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor of speaking to my sighted friends. It was said to me by a friend that I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier that way. I don't even know if this person even understood how offensive that comment was to me. When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness. It helps to keep a smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the time, which they do. You can complain and rant to your friends later. :) The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for advocacy and education. I am a performer, so I must walk on stage. I prefer to do this independently. I am a singer, and I work with an accompanist. We have been working together for about five years. She knows that I will walk on stage on my own. This weekend at a singing competition I had to work with another accompanist. This one thought it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the piano and try to turn me around to face the audience. I was stuck. I could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me around like I didn't know which way to face on my own. Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did not understand. I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people grab my arm. This is actually quite fun. The person trying to pull me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving. When I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with others, they understand and don't get too offended. This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading about all your thoughts and experiences. On 11/6/11, Jedi wrote: Chris, People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude socially speaking. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: Hi Arielle, You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good discussion; one that I believe is good to have. In my opinion, the difference between the public's stereotyping and discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about us. In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the public as being true. This, of course, is a generalisation; not all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true, especially those members of the public who work directly with us or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know from experience what blind people can do. It seems to me that these misconceptions are passed down through the generations; from one generation to their children, then passed on to those children's children, then to their children, and to their children, and so on. When these beliefs are taught for a long time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes easier for people to believe them and they mostly do. These misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and discrimination stem. Then, the misconceptions of the public directly effect us, as we then become the object of discrimination and stereotypes. To me, other minority groups don't have this problem. Take the African-Americans for example. Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not discriminated against for the reason that there were misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple reason that they were different! During this time, I think the majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that all people are different, and that having a different skin color doesn't justify looking down on a person. The beliefs about blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a different character than the beliefs which make people discriminate against other minorities. The difference is that the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs, sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue stereotypes and thoughts. Therefore, people who might stereotype or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the misconceptions and discrimination have no justification whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright discrimination. However, they would stereotype about us because they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact that these stereotypes aren't justified either. For this reason, we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and advocate. We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public. We have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our sighted piers. Other minority groups have proven this already, and the little discrimination that still exists is generally thought to be ridiculous and baseless. However, the public doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way, simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK with it, because they aren't educated. So, it is our job to educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype against other people. Those are my thoughts. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman I'd say call them, with your computer in front of you, and when they try to say it's your problem, take the steps that cause the bug to happen on your computer for the rep to hear, and then reiterate that it's not your problem. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just send it to the regular tech support? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40 wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:57:56 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:57:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grabbing Etc. Message-ID: <4ec318ca.4a5a340a.186c.ffff8609@mx.google.com> Wow, Jewel! This gives the line in the NFB's Helping Song about sometimes when people help too much, "I get a helping bruise," a whole new meaning! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jewel wrote: LOL! My brother guides me all around Walmart, and he likes to go faster than I can go. He doesn't understand that I can't walk at a normal pace, because of a Syatic Nerve problem. Blessings, Joshua On 11/7/11, Sam Hogle wrote: Actually, I've had the opposite problem. For some reason, guides think they have to go slower. The funny thing is they think I can't walk at a normal pace, but they also think I can see the curbs we walk up or down. I will never understand people. On 11/7/2011 11:50 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: Wow! Arielle, you've been through it! That's not necessary, that they do those things! I've been through alot of stuff regarding this, as well. I've also had guides go faster than I'm accustomed to, and I've fallen, because they didn't go at my pace. I always tell people, if they guide me, that they must go at my pace. Blessings, Joshua On 11/7/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: Hi all, I don't know if any of you can relate to this, but for me, being grabbed or pulled by the arm or back is more than just a dignity issue; it's a safety issue as well. I have always had poor balance, and when someone is putting pressure on one side of my body, or propelling me from behind, I feel unsafe and unbalanced. If I were to bump into an obstacle or trip while being pulled this way, I feel I would have a much harder time regaining my balance. For some reason, many sighted people think leading me this way is helpful, but in fact it's not only unnecessary, but makes safe and efficient travel more challenging for me. For example, I went on a white-water rafting trip in high school and one of the river guides tried to pull me up into the boat by my arm. I felt unbalanced and asked him to let go of my arm and let me get into the raft by myself. The guide told me to stop arguing with him and pulled me up into the boat. As I was getting in, my foot slipped and I wasn't able to stabilize myself because of the one-sided pressure on my body. I fell and bruised my leg, and was incredibly annoyed that the guide didn't listen to me. I also feel very unsafe when people attempt to grab my left arm because I am a left-handed cane user and my cane arc is impaired when they do this. The absolute worst is when someone grabs me without any verbal communication at all, such as a bus driver who grabbed me by both shoulders without saying a word because he thought I was going to run into a pole that my cane had just barely cleared. Needless to say, the silent grab scares me to death! Because of these experiences, I have learned to dig my feet in and will not follow someone who is grabbing or pulling me, especially if they are holding on to my cane arm. I will politely ask them to let go, and most people are just shocked that I don't want them to do that, especially if I have asked them for verbal directions. Unfortunately, many people think the only way to "help" a blind person is through this kind of physical maneuvering. Sometimes if I ask someone for information or directions, they will answer my question and then say, "Do you want me to help you?" I guess implying they are offering to physically lead me there. I will of course tell them they have already helped me a lot with the directions and that I really appreciate their help and don't need any more. If someone does the silent grab, or if they refuse to let go after a polite request to do so, then I will gently but firmly disengage my arm. Fortunately this has been very effective. If time allows I will give a simple explanation for not wanting to be grabbed, such as "Please don't grab me-it makes me feel off-balance" or "Please don't grab me-it's easier for me if you just walk beside me" etc. I do think that most people are just very ignorant and don't necessarily grab out of pity, but because they believe that grabbing is the most effective way to provide guidance to the blind. I try to educate them and some definitely do understand. I do feel guilty about times when I have snapped at people and not had the time to explain, such as when crossing a street or getting on a bus. But even though I feel bad, I don't regret my action because to me, it's a matter of safety above all else. I've also found that in some circumstances it's actually more efficient to do things independently than to be "helped". For instance, I went to get a pedicure a few weeks ago and the pedicurist insisted on putting my shoes and coat back on me after the pedicure was over. I tried to politely refuse, but she wouldn't hear it. Thing is, for whatever reason she was very methodical in putting my shoes on, and it took her about twice as long to do it as it would have if I had done it myself. Incidentally, I've never understood why some people get confused about sighted guide and think the technique is for them to grab my elbow and walk a step behind me. Even when I teach people the proper way, they will occasionally "get it backwards" and want to grab my elbow instead. Isn't it a lot harder to lead or guide someone if you're behind them than if you're in front of them? Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hogle.sam%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:58:10 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:58:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs Message-ID: <4ec318d8.4a5a340a.186c.ffff8615@mx.google.com> Hi Nicole, Try contacting Eric Damery. He's the director of sales (I believe,) and the guy you always see giving presentations about JAWS at conventions and online, on shows like Tek Talk and Main Menu. His email is edamery at freedomscientific.com. I'm not sure of his direct extension, but if you call their main number at 727-803-8000 and hit 0 for the operator, just ask for Eric Damery. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just send it to the regular tech support? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40 wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:57:52 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:57:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs Message-ID: <4ec318c6.4a5a340a.186c.ffff8606@mx.google.com> Hi Joshua, Just wondering, as I don't know much about WindowEyes: how is it better than JAWS? Also, what does everyone think of System Access from Serotek or NVDA? Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ignasi Cambra" wrote: Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just send it to the regular tech support? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40 wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:57:55 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:57:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Slightly O.T. Reporting JAWS Bugs Message-ID: <4ec318c9.4a5a340a.186c.ffff8607@mx.google.com> Hi Joshua, Nicole, and anyone else who would be interested in this, If you don't want to deal with the hold music on JAWS's support line, you can use one of the features I love about Freedom Scientific's phone system: call backs. Here's what you would do: After selecting the subject of your call (PacMate, software, hardware, Braille displays, etc,) and you get put on hold, hit 0. It will then ask you for the phone number that you would like them to call you back on. Then you would record a short (I'm talking like 30 seconds) message with your name and the subject of your problem. For example: "I'm Chris and I'm having a problem with my JAWS 12.0.1170." They are usually pretty fast with responding to these call-backs (usually between 5 and 10 minutes;) a lot better than Humanware. Hope this helps! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Not at all. *grin* To each his own; whatever works for you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Lester" wrote: That's what I was trying to avoid. I hate it when I write in to report a bug, and they make it sound like it's my problem, not the software. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ignasi Cambra" wrote: Please excuse me for the slightly off topic post. I tried asking on the CS list, but I did not get an answer. When reporting a bug about JAWS to Freedom Scientific, is there an official website or email, or do you just send it to the regular tech support? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40 wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40 wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:58:28 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:58:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks Message-ID: <4ec318ea.4a5a340a.186c.ffff8632@mx.google.com> How do you do a search on your Stream? Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jewel wrote: If you have a program like open book or kerzweil you can convert them to audio and then read them that way I believe. Hope Paulos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela Dehart" I think you did the right thing, Vejas! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: vejas It's interesting that this article is heaping so much praise on the state rehab center. It seems like the state center out in WA is pretty good, in that it teaches independence, not dependence. It was a very interesting article. However, the only thing I would take issue with in this article is that the descriptions in it sound as if the writer is saying, "How amazing! He's learning to live his life independently, and he's blind! How amazing he is!" But this is the very thing that we in the NFB are having problems with; the belief that blind people can't live independently, and those who do are somehow especially amazing and gifted. He can cook blindfolded? He can cross a street and not be fooled by a turn in the sidewalk? He can wield a saw? How amazing! I may be overreacting to the word choice of this article, but that's what I think. Any other thoughts? Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Humberto Avila" ,, Great adapting, Jewel! Sounds like a great alternative! Good luck, and keep us posted! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: vejas wrote: Hi Jewel, You could take this assignment and analyze an ad on TV that is all music with no explanation and take it from the angle of how frustrating that is to someone who cannot see what the ad is and so the commercial is then useless to them. Personally, I cannot stand those! I think they're getting more popular by the hour, unfortunately... I think that's what I would do with the assignment if it were me; it would for sure be an interesting spin on it. Take care. Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 9:40 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I wanted to get some ideas from you all. How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the audience, and what format they are in? Thhank you for any input you can provide. ~Jewel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%4 0hotmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:58:13 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:58:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] To Jewel Message-ID: <4ec318db.4a5a340a.186c.ffff8618@mx.google.com> Hi Annemarie, While there is information about ACB Radio on acb.org and a direct link to their site, the best and easiest way to get there is by using their direct link, which is www.acbradio.org. Just letting you know! Hope this helps! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Annemarie Cooke Hi=20everyone, There's=20an=20article=20in=20the=20fall=20edition=20of=20the=20Student=20S= late=20 entitled=20"Dress=20for=20Success,"=20which=20gives=20us=20some=20great=20t= ips=20on=20 clothes=20shopping=20and=20what=20to=20wear=20when.=20=20If=20you=20haven't= =20read=20it=20 yet,=20I=20encourage=20you=20to=20do=20so.=20=20You=20can=20download=20the= =20Slate=20at=20 nabslink.org. Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Ignasi=20Cambra=20D=EDaz=20=20wrote= : =20Ah,=20I=20wish=20we=20had=20a=20Belks=20up=20here.=20=20We=20shop=20at=20= Macy's=20most=20often=20 and=20a=20little =20at=20bloomingdales. =20When=20I=20was=20down=20south=20to=20see=20relatives,=20I=20liked=20Belk= s=20and=20 Dillards;=20good =20selection=20and=20well=20laid=20out. =20Ashley =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Lea=20williams =20Sent:=20Wednesday,=20October=2026,=202011=209:48=20PM =20To:=20Debbie=20Wunder=20;=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Studen= ts=20 mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20techniques=20for=20shopping=20and=20trends =20Hey=20I=20shop=20a=20lot=20with=20the=20help=20of=20the=20workers.=20=20= I=20went=20a=20couple=20 of =20weeks=20ago=20to=20get=20some=20shoes=20and=20an=20outfit.=20=20I=20firs= t=20went=20to=20the=20 shoe =20shop=20and=20just=20walked=20in=20and=20asked=20for=20help=20after=20wal= king=20through=20 the =20store=20to=20hunt=20someone=20down.=20=20NP.=20=20I=20knew=20that=20i=20= wanted=20sneakers=20 or=20tenis =20shoes,=20whatever=20you=20call=20them=20and=20got=20a=20pair.=20=20But=20= if=20your=20not=20 sure, =20just=20tell=20them=20what=20stile=20of=20clothes=20you=20would=20wear=20= with=20them,=20 dressy, =20casual,=20fancey=20etc.=20=20You=20can=20also=20ask=20what=20color=20clo= se=20the=20shoes=20 would =20best=20work=20with.=20=20I=20got=20a=20pair=20of=20heels=20and=20I=20tol= d=20them=20I=20 primarily=20wear =20dark=20blue=20dressy=20geans=20and=20black=20slacks=20or=20dark=20kackey= =20and=20they=20 were =20able=20to=20tell=20me=20what=20color=20would=20go=20best=20with=20the=20= colors.=20=20They=20 took=20me =20to=20an=20ile=20to=20let=20me=20loose=20alone=20in=20my=20size=20while=20= the=20lady=20went=20 and =20found=20a=20helper=20for=20me.=20=20The=20worker=20came=20and=20I=20told= =20her=20kind=20of=20 what=20I =20was=20looking=20for=20and=20she=20picked=20out=20things=20that=20was=20a= round=20that=20 would =20have=20worked=20and=20i=20chose=20from=20there. =20I=20have=20found=20telling=20them=20and=20asking=20a=20lot=20of=20things= =20helps=20the=20 both=20of =20you.=20=20If=20your=20not=20sure=20or=20understanding=20what=20they=20ar= e=20saying,=20 then=20ask =20loads=20of=20questions.=20=20It=20is=20your=20money=20your=20spending=20= and=20if=20you=20 buy=20it, =20it=20is=20you=20who=20takes=20it=20home=20not=20them. =20After=20this=20i=20went=20to=20Belks=20and=20had=20the=20lady=20there=20= help=20me=20find=20 an =20outfit.=20=20That=20one=20was=20a=20bit=20more=20tricky=20because=20she= =20took=20me=20to=20 the=20back =20and=20was=20trying=20to=20get=20me=20to=20pick=20from=20two=20tops=20tha= t=20were=20hanging=20 up=20on =20the=20wal.=20=20I=20did=20not=20like=20them=20and=20just=20started=20to= =20wonder=20off=20and =20saying,=20"so=20whats=20over=20here=20or=20there"?=20We=20then=20discove= rd=20that=20 the =20store=20was=20filled=20with=20loads=20of=20clothes=20that=20were=20not=20= on=20the=20 wall. =20Waow! =20I=20did=20find=20a=20nice=20outfit,=20something=20that=20was=20on=20sale= =20and=20cost=20 less =20than=20the=20things=20on=20the=20wall=20by=20the=20way. =20Something=20you=20could=20do=20is=20to=20find=20out=20what=20your=20colo= rs=20are,=20 google.=20=20I =20Google=20a=20lot=20of=20things.=20=20You=20can=20put=20in=20Google, =20What=20style=20and=20color=20of=20clothes=20works=20best=20for=20me? =20and=20you=20can=20find=20bloggs=20that=20says,=20if=20your=20dark=20hair= ed=20with=20 whatever =20skin,=20wear=20this=20and=20that.=20=20they=20usually=20say=20spring,=20= wenter,=20 summer=20or =20fall=20colors,=20but=20the=20give=20good=20information.=20=20Then=20when= =20your=20 shopping, =20you=20have=20more=20of=20an=20idea=20of=20what=20colors=20to=20pick. =20If=20your=20not=20shure=20if=20something=20will=20fit,=20Ask=20them=20wh= at=20do=20they=20 think, =20will=20it=20fit=20you=20or=20not?=20I=20do=20this=20all=20the=20time=20,= =20Sometimes=20a=20 small=20is =20really=20a=20medium=20etc... =20They=20will=20help,=20and=20if=20they=20have=20small=20children=20or=20k= ids=20at=20home=20 or =20even=20have=20raised=20them,=20they=20do=20a=20great=20job=20because=20t= hey=20do=20it=20 with =20their=20own=20children=20and=20it=20is=20second=20nature=20for=20them. =20If=20your=20still=20not=20sure,=20take=20=20a=20few=20sizes=20and=20hold= =20on=20till=20you=20 have=20a =20few=20things=20and=20then=20go=20try=20them=20on.=20=20The=20worst=20is= =20to=20get=20home=20 and=20not =20like=20what=20you=20buy=20because=20it's=20to=20tight=20or=20loose. =20And=20like=20I=20said,=20google,=20google=20google. =20Not=20just =20What=20is=20in=20season? =20But=20also =20How=20to=20choose=20shoes=20for=20an=20outfit? =20Or=20Will=20a=20blue=20shirt=20go=20with=20kackey=20pants? =20or =20What=20color=20tops=20to=20wear=20with=20dark/lite/etc=20bottoms? =20What=20kind=20of=20tops=20to=20wear=20with=20(fill=20in=20the=20blank)=20= pants/skirts... =20Be=20kind=20of=20spisific=20but=20not=20spisific.=20=20If=20you=20know=20= your=20body=20 shape,=20google =20What=20style=20of=20clothes=20looks=20best=20for=20my=20body=20shape? =20Man=20if=20i=20had=20money=20to=20spend=20on=20clothes=20and=20not=20bil= ls,=20I=20would=20go =20shopping=20more=20often. =20You=20could=20also=20do=20this=20with=20hair=20styles=20etc... =20If=20your=20worried=20that=20they=20might=20be=20to=20busy=20to=20shop=20= with=20you,=20 call=20them =20and=20tell=20them=20your=20blind=20and=20interested=20in=20shopping=20th= ere=20and=20 when =20would=20be=20the=20best=20time=20of=20the=20day=20to=20come=20in.=20=20S= ome=20places=20will=20 say=20mid =20day=20because=20they=20have=20more=20workers,=20and=20some=20will=20say= =20earlier=20or=20 later =20because=20their=20is=20less=20custermers.=20=20It=20is=20the=20prefrence= =20of=20the=20 store.=20=20If =20you=20find=20someone=20you=20really=20like=20shopping=20with,=20get=20th= eir=20name=20 and=20ask =20them=20when=20they=20normally=20work.=20=20I=20do=20this=20and=20then=20= the=20next=20time=20 I=20went =20I=20asked=20for=20them.=20=20this=20is=20a=20wonderful=20thing=20for=20t= hem=20and=20they=20 get=20high =20marks=20from=20there=20bosses=20for=20being=20requested. =20I=20would=20too=20ask=20if=20there=20might=20be=20someone=20close=20to=20= your=20age=20who=20 could =20help=20you=20shop=20for=20clothes=20because=20their=20style=20would=20be= =20better=20 than =20someone=20or=20is=20either=20a=20lot=20older=20or=20younger=20than=20you= .=20=20I=20had=20an=20 older =20women=20helping=20me=20and=20she=20did=20not=20try=20to=20pick=20out=20a= nything=20to=20old =20fashion=20,=20but=20what=20i=20got=20was=20so=20much=20better=20than=20w= hat=20she=20was=20 trying =20to=20get=20me=20to=20by. =20a=20lot=20of=20it=20does=20come=20from=20expirience=20and=20confidence=20= though.=20=20 Know=20what =20to=20ask=20and=20not=20being=20easily=20timpted=20to=20get=20whatever=20= they=20hand=20 you=20is =20good=20and=20try=20to=20ask=20yourself=20and=20be=20aunist=20with=20your= self=20if=20you=20 really =20like=20the=20stuff.=20=20I=20know=20if=20i=20am=20nervous,=20I=20am=20mo= re=20likely=20to=20buy =20something=20I=20do=20not=20like=20because=20I=20am=20more=20influenced=20= than=20when=20I=20 fill =20cunfirtable. =20HTH =20On=2010/26/11,=20Debbie=20Wunder=20=20wrote:= =20Hi=20Ashley,=20I=20find=20that=20if=20I=20am=20shopping=20alone,=20and=20= not=20with=20a=20 friend=20or =20one =20of=20my=20daughters,=20if=20I=20go=20to=20the=20counter=20and=20ask=20fo= r=20assistance,=20 mostly =20people=20are=20very=20willing=20to=20help.=20=20It=20of=20course=20depen= ds=20on=20the=20 store,=20I=20have =20had=20good=20luck=20at=20JC=20Pennys=20or=20Dillards,=20also=20some=20sm= aller=20ladies=20 shops.=20=20If =20you=20develope=20a=20relationship=20with=20a=20store=20manager,=20they=20= seem=20to=20 enjoy =20helping. =20It=20is=20important=20to=20me=20to=20have=20some=20one=20that=20I=20valu= e=20thei=20 opinion.=20=20The=20one =20thing=20that=20I=20have=20found=20that=20my=20youngest=20daughter=20is=20= quick=20to=20 tell=20me=20is =20that=20some=20things=20do=20not=20feel=20cute,=20and=20some=20feel=20cut= e=20that=20are=20 not. =20Sometimes=20I=20here=20from=20my=20daught,No,=20mom.=20=20smile =20Debbie =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20;=20"National=20Association=20of=20 Blind =20Students =20mailing=20list"=20 I'm sure you do, Bridgit! I read your article in the summer Student Slate! LOL! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Hi Justin, I use the Planner feature on my BrailleNote. One of the nice things about that planner is when you set appointments, you can set it to sound an alarm when the time of the appointment comes or before that time if you would want to do that. To the best of my knowledge, the BrailleSense and PacMate also have calendars, so if you have a notetaker, you can do it that way. Hope this helps! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Lea williams wrote: Hi All, Question for you. Do any of you use the online calenders? If so could you recommend which works best with JAWS? I ask because I am looking for an online calender which will help me become more organized with a busy schedule. The google calender is not that great from what I know so I thought I'd ask for help on this one. Thanks for any and all suggestions/leads. Justin _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988 %40gmail.com -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From clb5590 at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 02:00:53 2011 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:00:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <4ec318a8.4a5a340a.186c.ffff85e7@mx.google.com> References: <4ec318a8.4a5a340a.186c.ffff85e7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Tagging people in statusses is different than in pictures. There is no edit box for pictures. You have to click on the person in the picture, and then you can type in who it is. But yes, if you want to tag someone so their name is linked in a post, put the @ sign before their name. I type enough so that their name is the only one that can come up out of all of my friends, and then i tab and shift tab back into the edit box. You cannot do this on the mobile site either. Cindy On 11/15/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I tried tagging people like it said in the emails Facebook sends > me when someone taggs me (by typing the at sign and then the > person's name,) but it didn't work. > > Chris > > "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The > real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that > exists. If a blind person has the proper training and > opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical > nuisance." > -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, > 1968-1986 > > P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired > youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through > providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and > conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. > For more information about the Foundation and to support our > work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! > > Sent from my BrailleNote Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Cindy Bennett To: shogle at students.kennesaw.edu, National Association of Blind > Students mailing list Date sent: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 21:14:44 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack > there of) > > I like the mobile site, but when it comes to things like looking > at > pictures, any captions people write for pictures are not on the > mobile > site. Also, can you tag people or places on the mobile site? I > try the > same way it is done on the regular site, putting an @ sign > before, but > it does not work. > > Thanks. > > Cindy > > On 11/4/11, Sam Hogle wrote: > I agree that it can be used. However, my issues with it have > been that > it doesn't allways want to cooperate with Jaws when it comes to > me > trying to post stuff since what I'm posting comes up way than > slower > than my typing speed, I can't easily view my news feed, and > there is > just too much crap on the page in general. That last complaint > may not > be as valid since I'm what you might call a light user. I > update my > stattus and profile on a regular basis, but I'm not interested > in any of > the games, which I hear are not at all accessable. So, the > mobile sight > has allways been way better for me. But, we're all different, > so what > works for some won't work for all. > On 11/4/2011 11:47 AM, Brice Smith wrote: > The mobile site simply does not have the same functionality as > the > regular site. This is not a problem if you are a light user, > but > anyone needing to use more advanced functions on the site will > have to > use the regular version. > > That said, I really don't find the regular version all that > inaccessible and don't understand the complaints about Facebook. > While > I don't use Facebook much as an individual, I manage and update > the > page for the organization I work with. I can post updates, link > to > other organizations and pages much like twitter within statuses, > manage photos, and do just about everything else I'm required to > complete. What problems are you all experiencing? > > Brice > > On 11/4/11, Hannah Chadwick > wrote: > I definitely agree with Rania. I'm sure there are more options > and such > on > the regular facebook site, but I find the mobile one very > accessible :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Rania Ismail CMT > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack > there > of) > > I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the > regular > site as a jaws user. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack > there of) > > Excuse me if this is off topic. > If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular > Facebook > page > with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off > list? > On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an > acceptable > alternative to having an accessible site? > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 > %40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou > s%40suddenl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 > 9%40gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma > il.com > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > 828.989.5383 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:58:44 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:58:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Message-ID: <4ec318fa.4a5a340a.186c.ffff864a@mx.google.com> Love RoboBraille! Thanks, Vejas! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! 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bmV0Lm9yZy9hdHRhY2htZW50cy8yMDExMTExNS85ZDcyZDkwNC9hdHRhY2htZW50LmE+Cg== From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:58:41 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:58:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks Message-ID: <4ec318f7.4a5a340a.186c.ffff8645@mx.google.com> If you have a valid SMA count, it's free. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: The materials are in PDF sometimes which I know can only be read on a PC. Other times, they are one file per chapter. They are .rtf or Word files. -----Original Message----- From: Hope Paulos Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks What format do you get the materials in from DSS? Sent from my iPod On Nov 9, 2011, at 5:44 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" Thank you, Bridgit! You read my mind! You're awesome like that! LOL! It's called interdependence, guys. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter FYI... see the message below my signature. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ---- Original Message ------ From: Amy Phelps -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment Type: application/octet-stream Size: 297 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 01:58:47 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:58:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] website, jobs for the blind Message-ID: <4ec318fc.4a5a340a.186c.ffff864c@mx.google.com> Great resource! Thanks, Lea! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Lea williams Hi Ashley, In what format do they give you the book in? If you're reading it on your PC and it is a supported format, just save it to a thumb drive and import the file to your Braille Note by: 1. From the Main Menu, hit f for file manager. 2. Then hit t for translation. 3. Next hit i for import. 4. Fill out the prompts as necessary for the drive (your thumb drive will be called a "hard disk" on the BrailleNote,) folder name, and filename. 5. Hit Enter after typing in the destination filename and it should say "1 file imported." See your manual for all the details. I do this a lot, but I don't want to bore the whole list with all the details. Hope this helps! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" Please see the email below my signature... thought the techies on these lists may be interested in this. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ---- Original Message ------ From: "Gary Wunder" Hi Ashley, You will need to convert the PDF to a DOC or TXT file to be read on your BrailleNote. I do this by sending an email to convert at robobraille.org, attach the original PDF file, and type in the format you want it to be converted into in the subject line. You should get the converted file in a few minutes. RTF files are supported by the BrailleNote. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" References: <4ec318dc.4a5a340a.186c.ffff861b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3CC2F0AD16DE4E92A9768F6BCA91DC96@OwnerPC> Hi Chris, Wow, you really wrote a lot today! Can the braille note tell your next appointment? If so, what command? -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Calenders Hi Justin, I use the Planner feature on my BrailleNote. One of the nice things about that planner is when you set appointments, you can set it to sound an alarm when the time of the appointment comes or before that time if you would want to do that. To the best of my knowledge, the BrailleSense and PacMate also have calendars, so if you have a notetaker, you can do it that way. Hope this helps! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Lea williams wrote: Hi All, Question for you. Do any of you use the online calenders? If so could you recommend which works best with JAWS? I ask because I am looking for an online calender which will help me become more organized with a busy schedule. The google calender is not that great from what I know so I thought I'd ask for help on this one. Thanks for any and all suggestions/leads. Justin _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988 %40gmail.com -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 05:30:41 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:30:41 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) In-Reply-To: <4ec318a8.4a5a340a.186c.ffff85e7@mx.google.com> References: <4ec318a8.4a5a340a.186c.ffff85e7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <29D69F5754DC4035B04CE625D74C7A55@userPC> Tagging someone that way only works on the regular site. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) I tried tagging people like it said in the emails Facebook sends me when someone taggs me (by typing the at sign and then the person's name,) but it didn't work. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy Bennett wrote: I agree that it can be used. However, my issues with it have been that it doesn't allways want to cooperate with Jaws when it comes to me trying to post stuff since what I'm posting comes up way than slower than my typing speed, I can't easily view my news feed, and there is just too much crap on the page in general. That last complaint may not be as valid since I'm what you might call a light user. I update my stattus and profile on a regular basis, but I'm not interested in any of the games, which I hear are not at all accessable. So, the mobile sight has allways been way better for me. But, we're all different, so what works for some won't work for all. On 11/4/2011 11:47 AM, Brice Smith wrote: The mobile site simply does not have the same functionality as the regular site. This is not a problem if you are a light user, but anyone needing to use more advanced functions on the site will have to use the regular version. That said, I really don't find the regular version all that inaccessible and don't understand the complaints about Facebook. While I don't use Facebook much as an individual, I manage and update the page for the organization I work with. I can post updates, link to other organizations and pages much like twitter within statuses, manage photos, and do just about everything else I'm required to complete. What problems are you all experiencing? Brice On 11/4/11, Hannah Chadwick wrote: I definitely agree with Rania. I'm sure there are more options and such on the regular facebook site, but I find the mobile one very accessible :) -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:15 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) I find using the moble facebook site much easyer to use then the regular site as a jaws user. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 9:52 PM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook and Accessibility (or rather lack there of) Excuse me if this is off topic. If anyone has figured out how to make navigating the regular Facebook page with a screen reader go smoother, can he/she please email me off list? On a similar note, do you think that using the mobile site is an acceptable alternative to having an accessible site? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou s%40suddenl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 9%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma il.com -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 16 02:53:49 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:53:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks In-Reply-To: <4ec318eb.4a5a340a.186c.ffff8635@mx.google.com> References: <4ec318eb.4a5a340a.186c.ffff8635@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I get it in .rtf files sometimes. Not sure if that is supported. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks Hi Ashley, In what format do they give you the book in? If you're reading it on your PC and it is a supported format, just save it to a thumb drive and import the file to your Braille Note by: 1. From the Main Menu, hit f for file manager. 2. Then hit t for translation. 3. Next hit i for import. 4. Fill out the prompts as necessary for the drive (your thumb drive will be called a "hard disk" on the BrailleNote,) folder name, and filename. 5. Hit Enter after typing in the destination filename and it should say "1 file imported." See your manual for all the details. I do this a lot, but I don't want to bore the whole list with all the details. Hope this helps! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" References: <4ec318eb.4a5a340a.186c.ffff8635@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dear Chris, What kind of search are you trying to do? Sincerely, Nathan On 11/15/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > I get it in .rtf files sometimes. Not sure if that is supported. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 8:58 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > Hi Ashley, > > In what format do they give you the book in? If you're reading it > on your PC and it is a supported format, just save it to a thumb > drive and import the file to your Braille Note by: > > 1. From the Main Menu, hit f for file manager. > 2. Then hit t for translation. > 3. Next hit i for import. > 4. Fill out the prompts as necessary for the drive (your thumb > drive will be called a "hard disk" on the BrailleNote,) folder > name, and filename. > 5. Hit Enter after typing in the destination filename and it > should say "1 file imported." > > See your manual for all the details. I do this a lot, but I > don't want to bore the whole list with all the details. Hope > this helps! > > Chris > > "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The > real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that > exists. If a blind person has the proper training and > opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical > nuisance." > -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, > 1968-1986 > > P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired > youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through > providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and > conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. > For more information about the Foundation and to support our > work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! > > Sent from my BrailleNote Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 17:44:57 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > Good question. > I think the VR stream is doable, but not sure what format you > need to save > to in order to read on vr stream. > > Another question. > If my DSS office gives me electronic material, that I read on the > PC and > with jaws, how can I read them on my braille Note? > Do I just save the files to the PC, then save from the PC to the > thumb drive > or sd card? > > Thanks. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Angela Dehart > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 4:41 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Textbooks > > Hello all, > I'm hoping someone will have the answer to my questions, anyway > here goes. I > receive my college textbooks on CD, my DS office makes them with > approval > from the book publishers. I can read theses CDs on my computer > with windows > eyes but I would also like to be able to use my textbooks on my > iPad and > victor reader stream as well. Does anyone know how I would go > about > transferring the files from the CDs to each of these devices or > if it can > even be done? > > Thanks in advance, > Angela Dehart > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com > From clb5590 at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 18:19:02 2011 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:19:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Holiday Traditions Message-ID: The Student Slate wants to hear from you! We are accepting paragraphs about what fun traditions you have over the holidays and compiling them into our Holiday Slate! We haven't received many submissions, and we want to include your special memories in the Slate to get us all into the proper holiday spirit. So, please send submissions to clb5590 at gmail.com by this Friday! We look forward to receiving them! -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Wed Nov 16 22:38:55 2011 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:38:55 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} Fw: Apply for a White House Internship Message-ID: <44EEBCCD937942F591E585257C124BD1@labarre> Apply for a White House InternshipFYI Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: White House Disability Group To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:17 PM Subject: Apply for a White House Internship Wednesday, November 16, 2011 Hello, Please circulate to those who may be interested in applying for a White House internship. To learn more, read the full blog post here. Apply Today for the White House Internship Program Posted by Christian Peele, Director of the White House Internship Program So, what’s a typical day like for a White House Intern? It’s a question I’m often asked, and the honest answer is that there’s no such thing. The mission of the White House Internship Program is to make the "People’s House" accessible to future leaders from around the nation, and to cultivate and prepare those devoted to public service for future leadership opportunities. To this end, the programs and opportunities of the Internship Program make for days filled with unique learning experiences, thought-provoking conversation, and unforgettable events. White House Interns work in one of sixteen White House departments where they conduct research, manage incoming inquiries, attend meetings, write memos and staff events. Some of the offices where they work include the Office of the First Lady, the Office of Scheduling and Advance, the Office of Public Engagement and Intergovernmental Affairs, the Office of the White House Counsel, the National Economic Council, the Office of Communications, the Domestic Policy Council and the Office of Digital Strategy. In addition to their regular duties, each week, White House Interns hear from senior members of the Administration including the First Lady, the Chief of Staff and the White House Counsel. They meet in small groups to discuss policy issues and take off-site field trips to learn more about Washington, D.C. They participate in service projects at non-profits and schools. Not to mention, they spend three months alongside other Interns who are devoted to public service and with whom they build long-lasting friendships. Today we open the application for the Summer 2012 White House Internship Program. The summer program runs from May 29, 2012 through August 10, 2012, and the application deadline is January 22, 2012. If you are interested in public service – apply. Tell other young leaders who are interested in public service to apply. Be part of a program where there’s no typical day, and where young people from across the country dedicate their time, talents, and energy to better the White House, the community, and the nation. Christian Peele is the Director of the White House Internship Program. Stay Connected Flickr iTunes This email was sent to slabarre at labarrelaw.com Manage Subscriptions for slabarre at labarrelaw.com Sign Up for Updates from the White House Unsubscribe slabarre at labarrelaw.com | Privacy Policy Please do not reply to this email. Contact the White House. The White House • 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW • Washington, DC 20500 • 202-456-1111 From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 18:53:17 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:53:17 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs fundraising committee meeting -all are welcomed! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: NABS Membership Committee Presents: What Vocational Rehabilitation Can do for You Are you concerned about how you are going to pay for college? Do you have no idea how to get the technology you need to succeed? Are you confused about what Vocational Rehabilitation is and how it applies to you? Join us on November 20 at 7 PM EST for a question and answer session about how Vocational Rehabilitation can help you reach your educational and employment goals. Dr. Edward Bell, (director of the Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness at Louisiana Tech), will join us to explain the purpose of Voc Rehab and empower you to advocate for your needs. Call in at (712) 775 - 7100 and enter code 257963. See you there! The National Association of Blind Students. On 11/12/11, Darian Smith wrote: > The Following comes from the nabs fundraising committee and is a great > oppertunity to really dig in there and get some important work done > for the division. > > Hello NABS Members, > > The NABS fundraising committee will be meeting on Sunday, November 13, > 2011 at 4:00PM EDT. We are continuing work on our auction for > Washington Seminar > and are looking for volunteers to procure donations and brainstorm > ways to make this auction unforgettable.  If you are interested in > being part of the > meeting or joining the committee call > 712-775-7100 > and dial code 257963# at 4pm EDT on Sunday. We look forward to seeing > you there! > > Best Wishes, > > Domonique Lawless > > NABS Fundraising Committee Chair > > dlawless86 at gmail.com > > > > > Darian Smith > > "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is > the > formula > for a life well lived." > > - Dr. Peter Benson > -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:00:20 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:00:20 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] The National Association of Blind Students Presents: Rehab call (take two!) Message-ID: Sorry for the Last Message, This is what you really want to pay attention to! *smile* From the nabs membership committee: NABS Membership Committee Presents: What Vocational Rehabilitation Can do for You Are you concerned about how you are going to pay for college? Do you have no idea how to get the technology you need to succeed? Are you confused about what Vocational Rehabilitation is and how it applies to you? Join us on November 20 at 7 PM EST for a question and answer session about how Vocational Rehabilitation can help you reach your educational and employment goals. Dr. Edward Bell, (director of the Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness at Louisiana Tech), will join us to explain the purpose of Voc Rehab and empower you to advocate for your needs.  Call in at (712) 775 - 7100 and enter code  257963.  See you there!  The National Association of Blind Students. -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:07:22 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:07:22 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] *For High School Students Only!* Nabs high school committee presents: Standerdized tests 101 Message-ID: Attention All High School Students Are you planning to take the ACT or SAT? Do you want to learn the differences between the ACT and SAT? Do you want to learn the benefits of both? Are you wondering how to study, or where to find study materials? If you have any of these questions or are wondering other things having to do with the ACT and SAT, join guest speaker Eric Guillory and the high school committee on November 20, at 6:00 p.m eastern. Call: 712-775-7100 Pass code: 257963 Bre Brown NABS High School Chair -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From amylsabo at comcast.net Thu Nov 17 23:45:31 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 16:45:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <029a01cca582$fee761d0$fcb62570$@comcast.net> Hello Ashley, I'm glad that you want to take a intro to computers class. I too was in your boat many years ago when I began my college career in Michigan at a community college and, this was one of the classes that I needed to take. As for the book it was offered on rfbd and, I also had a notetaker for the class. As for using the computer by using jfw for the labs in ms office I knew how to use jfw with both word and many other of the ms office features. What I have done in the past is use the help menu in the ms office applications which lists all of the commands by using shortkeys with the keyboard and, I believe that they use jfw. Anyway, I hope this helps you out. Take care and, if you need any other help don't hesitate to write me off list at amylsabo at comcast.net Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class Hi all, What has been your experience taking mainstream computer classes at a college? I am considering one. Its called something like introduction to computer concepts and applications. It focuses on the MS office suite as well as computer knowledge like terms, hardware, software, components of the computer, things like that. I heard its half lecture or maybe more than half lecture and the rest hands on in the lab working on a computer. The lecture and book cover the computer knowledge/terms/theory and hands on teaches Word, Powerpoint, internet, and some database which is Access, although I’m not sure as the catolog did not specify. How could the professor teach me these things? Explain computer commands with Office short cut keys? This class is required for AA degree students but I’m taking it to get more computer knowledge not only about MS office but about computer operations in general. They will install jaws 12 upon request, but professors know nothing about jaws, other than clicking the icon to turn it on. So I’m on my own for jaws commands. Maybe I can work with the instructor in office hours but I’d like to get the most out of class. I know the past blind students worked closely with the professor for help. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 02:17:23 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 21:17:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class In-Reply-To: <029a01cca582$fee761d0$fcb62570$@comcast.net> References: <029a01cca582$fee761d0$fcb62570$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <62DF48C16988473287FBC85EC8DBE8A8@OwnerPC> Okay. The help feature will list short cut keys for MS office but not jaws. How do you find it? Thanks -----Original Message----- From: Amy Sabo Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:45 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class Hello Ashley, I'm glad that you want to take a intro to computers class. I too was in your boat many years ago when I began my college career in Michigan at a community college and, this was one of the classes that I needed to take. As for the book it was offered on rfbd and, I also had a notetaker for the class. As for using the computer by using jfw for the labs in ms office I knew how to use jfw with both word and many other of the ms office features. What I have done in the past is use the help menu in the ms office applications which lists all of the commands by using shortkeys with the keyboard and, I believe that they use jfw. Anyway, I hope this helps you out. Take care and, if you need any other help don't hesitate to write me off list at amylsabo at comcast.net Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class Hi all, What has been your experience taking mainstream computer classes at a college? I am considering one. Its called something like introduction to computer concepts and applications. It focuses on the MS office suite as well as computer knowledge like terms, hardware, software, components of the computer, things like that. I heard its half lecture or maybe more than half lecture and the rest hands on in the lab working on a computer. The lecture and book cover the computer knowledge/terms/theory and hands on teaches Word, Powerpoint, internet, and some database which is Access, although I’m not sure as the catolog did not specify. How could the professor teach me these things? Explain computer commands with Office short cut keys? This class is required for AA degree students but I’m taking it to get more computer knowledge not only about MS office but about computer operations in general. They will install jaws 12 upon request, but professors know nothing about jaws, other than clicking the icon to turn it on. So I’m on my own for jaws commands. Maybe I can work with the instructor in office hours but I’d like to get the most out of class. I know the past blind students worked closely with the professor for help. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 03:16:40 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:16:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making PP file. Message-ID: <4ec5ce40.e426340a.3469.1305@mx.google.com> Hi Lea, I know how to work PowerPoint, but it is something that I would have trouble explaining to you in one email. I see that you have a Skype. Probably the best way to do this is if I added you on Skype and we did PowerPoint together, where we can both hear each other's computers. By the way, which screen reader are you using; JAWS, WindowEyes, etc? Is it OK if I add you on Skype? Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Lea williams Hi Patrick, If you want it to be in outline form (mostly for Lea, that just means that it saves it as an RTF file so you can read it in a standard word processor,) I usually select "outline form" from the "save as type" combo box in the save as dialog. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Molloy wrote: Hey I have to make a Power Point prodject for computers and never done it before. I tried to look at it but could not figure out how to do it all. Could some one explain? Thanks. -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 03:16:53 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:16:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making PP file. Message-ID: <4ec5ce4d.e426340a.3469.130c@mx.google.com> I think there's something that FS put out on this. It might be in FS Reader. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexander Castillo wrote: Lea, PowerPoint can be tricky if you're using JAWS. There's a command, something like control-shift-tab, that will put your PowerPoint into an outline form which you can then copy and paste into a word document. Patrick On 11/12/11, Lea williams wrote: Hey I have to make a Power Point prodject for computers and never done it before. I tried to look at it but could not figure out how to do it all. Could some one explain? Thanks. -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alexandera.ca stillo%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 03:16:33 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:16:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Message-ID: <4ec5ce39.e426340a.3469.12fa@mx.google.com> Hi Amy, Is Cool Edit free? If so, I'd be interested in downloading it! By the way, I think Elizabeth was trying to transcribe an audio recording into text (like a transcript,) not edit the audio recording and keep it audio. That's at least how I took her email. But only she knows for sure what she intended to do with that "confidential" recording. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" Hi, I am a freshman in high school and learning to improve my signature. I wanted some advice from you guys; how do you sign your names? How did you learn them? Did you just remember the shape of each letter? Do you use a writing guide or card? Thanks a lot. I'd really appreciate it because my signature is very important and will become very handy in the future. Thank you. Vejas From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Nov 18 03:20:58 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 21:20:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and religion Message-ID: Hi, it's Joshua Lester. Chris and Arielle brought this up in an earlier thread. I would have posted this on the Faith-Talk list, but they probably wouldn't get it. I have faced discrimination in church's, because of my blindness. For example, I was promoting 2 different concerts, at the same church. Both times, they had communion. When they passed out the sacraments, I noticed that they had skipped me, for some reason. I don't know why, but I think that they thought that I couldn't partake of the sacraments, by myself. They think that blind people are mintally deficient, but I think that they're the ones that are ignorant about us. Needless to say, I haven't been back to that cult. You can't call them a true church, if they don't show the true love of Jesus, who never discriminated against people, based on race, disability, etc. Blessings, Joshua From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 03:29:37 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:29:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: Hi Tara and all, You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? Best, Arielle On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers use, not > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what we > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens who > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted people > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes blind > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not saying > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people who > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind people > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they want to > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people think of > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true to > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing with > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible to > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the sighted > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get this > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are dazing > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it looks to > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind people > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just some > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of nonverbal > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows disinterest, > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your body > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not see > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids with > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. I > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance camp > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the way > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing loudly at > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was mentally. > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt bad for > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. The > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. Many > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to say. > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look either > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal icebirg, > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are viewed. > Also you are right about understanding the body language of others, and > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being said > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different energy > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a person > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all > comunication is nonverbal. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tara Annis > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings across > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty in > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, do > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and a > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one of > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues to > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class where > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it is > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is displayed > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their half > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing to > do their half. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 04:07:52 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:07:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] significance of signatures In-Reply-To: <4ec5d017.d421340a.6ff0.1014@mx.google.com> References: <4ec5d017.d421340a.6ff0.1014@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Vejas, Let me preface this by saying that I have no vision whatsoever. If you have some vision, then what I'm about to say probably won't apply as much. I started out learning my signature letter by letter and trying to remember the shape. Then my parents told me about what we call the doctor's signature. This just means that you sign your first initial, draw a kind of wavy line, then sign the first letter of your last name and do another wavy line. In terms of guides/cards, it's always handy to have a signature guide nearby. Your signature doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be something that you can repeat over and over again the same way. Patrick On 11/17/11, vejas wrote: > Hi, > I am a freshman in high school and learning to improve my > signature. I wanted some advice from you guys; how do you sign > your names? How did you learn them? Did you just remember the > shape of each letter? Do you use a writing guide or card? > Thanks a lot. I'd really appreciate it because my signature is > very important and will become very handy in the future. > Thank you. > Vejas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 04:02:57 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:02:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians Message-ID: <3D81DA5893A24A499C89F9876DAB92D6@OwnerPC> I am taking some classes in energy work to go along with massage tharapy. I am sertified in reiki, but am having trouble with meridian tharapy and sheotsu. Does anyone know where I can get a tactile picture or moddle of the body with the meridiens and acupressure pointsclearly defined? If there is not a place that already makes such a thing does anyone know how I might go about making it. Some of the meridians are complicated and they cross other meridians so each meridian would have to be tactually different. I think I would need two pictures/moddles, one to show just the meridians and the other to show the meridians with the acupressure points. If it were pictures rather than a moddle I would need a way to see it in 3D I think or a key that explained how the meridians travel along the back and sides of the body. It may have to be several pictures to get all angles of the body and a key to tell how the meridians connect from picture to picture. A moddle would probebly be the best way to go but I am open to all suggestions. I really appreciate any help, thank you so much. Andi From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 04:54:04 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:54:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F@OwnerPC> Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:29 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Hi Tara and all, You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? Best, Arielle On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers use, > not > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what we > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens > who > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted people > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes blind > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not > saying > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people who > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind > people > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they want > to > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people think > of > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true to > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing > with > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible to > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the sighted > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get > this > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are dazing > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it looks > to > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind > people > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just some > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of nonverbal > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows disinterest, > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your body > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not see > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids with > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. I > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance camp > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the way > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing loudly > at > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was > mentally. > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt bad > for > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. The > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. Many > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to say. > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look > either > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal > icebirg, > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are > viewed. > Also you are right about understanding the body language of others, > and > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being said > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different energy > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a person > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all > comunication is nonverbal. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tara Annis > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings > across > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty > in > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, > do > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and > a > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one > of > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues > to > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class > where > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it > is > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is > displayed > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me > from > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their > half > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing > to > do their half. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 04:58:00 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:58:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] significance of signatures In-Reply-To: <4ec5d017.d421340a.6ff0.1014@mx.google.com> References: <4ec5d017.d421340a.6ff0.1014@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7A75021F74014833B9928811F83CF54C@OwnerPC> There is a plastic sheet with all the letters in a gruve like fassion so you can feel them with the pen and you learn the letters and then how they go together and your hand gets muscle memory after a while. Eventually you don't really have to think about it much. -----Original Message----- From: vejas Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:24 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] significance of signatures Hi, I am a freshman in high school and learning to improve my signature. I wanted some advice from you guys; how do you sign your names? How did you learn them? Did you just remember the shape of each letter? Do you use a writing guide or card? Thanks a lot. I'd really appreciate it because my signature is very important and will become very handy in the future. Thank you. Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 12:01:34 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 07:01:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F@OwnerPC> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F@OwnerPC> Message-ID: adrianne, You make a great point about martial arts classes. Martial arts are something where a blind person and a sighted person are on equal footing. You don't have to see your partner to perform the moves. Not only that, but taking a martial art will really make you aware of your body and it would definitely make you less stiff. My friend got me into Aikido a couple of weeks ago and at first I was a little unsure, but it's actually worked out really well. On 11/17/11, Andi wrote: > Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are > good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff > postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial > expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first > because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for > sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not > only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in > everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the > distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy > they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the > face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so > what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually > as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only > facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little > details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who > wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from > birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize > it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to > them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it > because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more > natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same > thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet > for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to > that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to > make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone > who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten > ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting > classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If > not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is > also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a > nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial > exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override > atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not > instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling > at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement > asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile > is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is > probebly not that big of a deal. > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:29 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > Hi Tara and all, > You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it > behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to > express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at > this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In > particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals > in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking > annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we > can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they > ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, > as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a > conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but > other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you > who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good > control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have > made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons > about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I > think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always > been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures > routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, > if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, > with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. > Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about > something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's > so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the > impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume > that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, > but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the > funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my > attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and > embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am > thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I > don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a > graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: >> I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it >> should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers use, >> not >> only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what we >> do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big >> difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an >> understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens >> who >> were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted people >> think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes blind >> people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not >> saying >> that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people who >> look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are >> largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind >> people >> also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they want >> to >> be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people think >> of >> you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true to >> yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing >> with >> stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. >> Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This >> means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible to >> make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the sighted >> like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get >> this >> blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are dazing >> off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it looks >> to >> sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation >> because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind >> people >> go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just some >> exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of nonverbal >> comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the >> floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows disinterest, >> bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your body >> language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not see >> the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as >> rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this >> looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids with >> no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. I >> had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance camp >> as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the way >> and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing loudly >> at >> dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was >> mentally. >> Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt bad >> for >> asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. The >> placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if >> placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. Many >> blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif >> movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to say. >> Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look >> either >> angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal >> icebirg, >> and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are >> viewed. >> Also you are right about understanding the body language of others, >> and >> even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being said >> silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different energy >> feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a person >> says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all >> comunication is nonverbal. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tara Annis >> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >> >> I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings >> across >> to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is >> considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest >> things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many >> people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty >> in >> their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, >> do >> lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and >> >> a >> sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. >> I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a >> blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, >> so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one >> of >> the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting >> to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like >> rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to >> show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues >> to >> be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why >> sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their >> anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class >> where >> advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems >> there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking >> to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various >> ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, >> somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it >> is >> necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as >> opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. >> Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is >> displayed >> nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college >> campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me >> from >> my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more >> comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my >> feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I >> have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish >> significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their >> half >> of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing >> to >> do their half. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 16:18:13 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 08:18:13 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: <36158509B521418789D906C1B1AE0FB6@userPC> Hi Ariel, I have had the same thing happen to me. Sometimes I will think of something and a big smile ends up on my face and or I start laughing. When I get asked what's so funny I can't explain it either. I have also been blind since birth. I am told that if someone tells me something and I don't like it I do something with my upper lip. I don't even know I am doing it. I am told to stop it when it happends but as I said before I have know idea I am even doing it and am not sure how to stop it. Has anyone experienced this? Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Hi Tara and all, You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? Best, Arielle On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers use, not > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what we > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens who > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted people > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes blind > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not saying > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people who > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind people > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they want to > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people think of > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true to > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing with > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible to > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the sighted > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get this > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are dazing > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it looks to > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind people > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just some > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of nonverbal > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows disinterest, > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your body > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not see > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids with > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. I > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance camp > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the way > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing loudly at > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was mentally. > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt bad for > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. The > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. Many > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to say. > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look either > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal icebirg, > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are viewed. > Also you are right about understanding the body language of others, and > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being said > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different energy > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a person > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all > comunication is nonverbal. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tara Annis > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings across > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty in > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, do > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and a > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one of > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues to > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class where > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it is > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is displayed > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their half > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing to > do their half. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 16:19:51 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 08:19:51 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] significance of signatures In-Reply-To: <4ec5d017.d421340a.6ff0.1014@mx.google.com> References: <4ec5d017.d421340a.6ff0.1014@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2650AC81E48A4C699D2FECFA6645BD58@userPC> I had someone teach me how to write my name. I use a card to help me stay in the space I need. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of vejas Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] significance of signatures Hi, I am a freshman in high school and learning to improve my signature. I wanted some advice from you guys; how do you sign your names? How did you learn them? Did you just remember the shape of each letter? Do you use a writing guide or card? Thanks a lot. I'd really appreciate it because my signature is very important and will become very handy in the future. Thank you. Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 16:21:07 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 08:21:07 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians In-Reply-To: <3D81DA5893A24A499C89F9876DAB92D6@OwnerPC> References: <3D81DA5893A24A499C89F9876DAB92D6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <7CCD17A2F6C8411CBCAC05E3B7BBF97D@userPC> Hi Andy, I have a chart that explains ware they go. Would that be helpful? Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andi Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:03 PM To: NFB Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians I am taking some classes in energy work to go along with massage tharapy. I am sertified in reiki, but am having trouble with meridian tharapy and sheotsu. Does anyone know where I can get a tactile picture or moddle of the body with the meridiens and acupressure pointsclearly defined? If there is not a place that already makes such a thing does anyone know how I might go about making it. Some of the meridians are complicated and they cross other meridians so each meridian would have to be tactually different. I think I would need two pictures/moddles, one to show just the meridians and the other to show the meridians with the acupressure points. If it were pictures rather than a moddle I would need a way to see it in 3D I think or a key that explained how the meridians travel along the back and sides of the body. It may have to be several pictures to get all angles of the body and a key to tell how the meridians connect from picture to picture. A moddle would probebly be the best way to go but I am open to all suggestions. I really appreciate any help, thank you so much. Andi _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 16:25:39 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 08:25:39 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F@OwnerPC> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <48631C549EC840AD9A53BA0FDFFA9A1E@userPC> I find that yoga helps me improve my posture and after a while my muscles and joints did start to loosen and my yoga instructor and massage therapist did notice a change. I noticed it a little too but it took me a little longer to notice a difference. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andi Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:29 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Hi Tara and all, You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? Best, Arielle On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers use, > not > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what we > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens > who > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted people > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes blind > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not > saying > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people who > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind > people > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they want > to > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people think > of > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true to > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing > with > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible to > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the sighted > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get > this > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are dazing > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it looks > to > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind > people > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just some > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of nonverbal > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows disinterest, > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your body > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not see > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids with > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. I > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance camp > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the way > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing loudly > at > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was > mentally. > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt bad > for > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. The > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. Many > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to say. > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look > either > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal > icebirg, > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are > viewed. > Also you are right about understanding the body language of others, > and > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being said > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different energy > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a person > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all > comunication is nonverbal. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tara Annis > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings > across > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty > in > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, > do > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and > a > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one > of > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues > to > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class > where > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it > is > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is > displayed > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me > from > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their > half > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing > to > do their half. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From carlymih at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 13:27:25 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:27:25 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] significance of signatures In-Reply-To: <4ec5d017.d421340a.6ff0.1014@mx.google.com> References: <4ec5d017.d421340a.6ff0.1014@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111118052126.01cb8fe0@earthlink.net> Good morning, Vejas, I don't know how long you have beeen without eyesight but, I just "eyeball" my signiture with a somewhat vague understanding of what the letters look like my signiture, I'm sure is a mechanical, printing of each letter. Yet, my partner once had his eyesight and he signs his name in one quick, motion. Don't worry about those signiture guides. They claim one's signiture is meant to be a quick, scribble and isn't supposed to matter if one's signuiture is ledgable. You've probably heard the same thing? for today, Car, >I am a freshman in high school and learning to improve my >signature. I wanted some advice from you guys; how do you sign your >names? How did you learn them? Did you just remember the shape of >each letter? Do you use a writing guide or card? >Thanks a lot. I'd really appreciate it because my signature is very >important and will become very handy in the future. >Thank you. >Vejas > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From carlymih at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 13:40:16 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:40:16 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111118052906.01d29868@earthlink.net> Good morning, Arielle, I know I tend to use such gestures as a quick shrug of the shoulders to express nonchalantness since such a nonverbal expression seems to come naturally to me so I hope is somewhat believable. How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? What's the point? I Tara and all, >You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it >behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to >express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at >this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In >particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals >in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking >annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we >can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they >ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, >as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a >conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but >other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you >who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good >control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have >made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons >about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I >think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always >been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures >routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, >if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, >with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. >Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about >something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's >so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the >impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume >that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, >but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the >funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my >attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and >embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am >thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I >don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a >graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? >Best, >Arielle > >On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: > > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it > > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training > centers use, not > > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what we > > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big > > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an > > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens who > > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted people > > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes blind > > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not saying > > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people who > > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are > > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind people > > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how > they want to > > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people think of > > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true to > > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing with > > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. > > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This > > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible to > > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the sighted > > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted > people get this > > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are dazing > > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time > it looks to > > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation > > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind people > > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just some > > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of nonverbal > > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the > > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows disinterest, > > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your body > > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not see > > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as > > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this > > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids with > > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. I > > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance camp > > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the way > > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while > singing loudly at > > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he > was mentally. > > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she > felt bad for > > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. The > > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if > > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. Many > > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif > > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to say. > > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look either > > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal icebirg, > > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are viewed. > > Also you are right about understanding the body language of > others, and > > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being said > > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different energy > > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a person > > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all > > comunication is nonverbal. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tara Annis > > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > > > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings across > > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is > > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest > > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many > > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit > cruelty in > > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, > but some, do > > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from > birth and a > > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. > > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a > > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, > > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I > think one of > > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting > > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like > > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to > > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person > continues to > > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why > > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their > > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a > class where > > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems > > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking > > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various > > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, > > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that > sometimes it is > > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as > > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. > > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that > is displayed > > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college > > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from > > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more > > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my > > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I > > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish > > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their half > > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be > willing to > > do their half. > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From isaiah5719 at mchsi.com Fri Nov 18 15:24:48 2011 From: isaiah5719 at mchsi.com (Loren Wakefield) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:24:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio In-Reply-To: <4ec5ce39.e426340a.3469.12fa@mx.google.com> References: <4ec5ce39.e426340a.3469.12fa@mx.google.com> Message-ID: my wife is starting to work with a program called "express-scribe". It works with a foot pedle which allows you to start stop forward and rewind thew file. One can also adjust the speed of the file. She says it is mostly speech friendly. If you would like to talk more with her about this write her offlist at: proverbs1423 at mchsi.com Loren Wakefield -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Hi Amy, Is Cool Edit free? If so, I'd be interested in downloading it! By the way, I think Elizabeth was trying to transcribe an audio recording into text (like a transcript,) not edit the audio recording and keep it audio. That's at least how I took her email. But only she knows for sure what she intended to do with that "confidential" recording. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" Message-ID: CoolEdit was purchased a long time ago by Adobe and became Adobe Audition. Audition 1 and 1.5 looked pretty much the same but version 2 changed in such a way as to not be very accessible with screen readers. Version 3 is better, but it generally requires some extra support by screen readers, and it is fairly expensive. Unless there is something happening with CoolEdit of which I am not aware, and that is certainly possible, any downloads you find would be very old and may not work with current hardware or operating systems, or worse yet, they may be bogus. Gold Wave is probably the best bet, although I agree that the original person was probably looking to transcribe rather than edit Audio. Some of the Audio editors let you "Time Stretch", though, which slows up a recording without lowering the pitch. Some find that it is possible to slow down a recording to a point where one can listen and transcribe without the need to start and stop the recording as much, making transcribing easier. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:16:33 -0500, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >Hi Amy, >Is Cool Edit free? If so, I'd be interested in downloading it! By >the way, I think Elizabeth was trying to transcribe an audio >recording into text (like a transcript,) not edit the audio >recording and keep it audio. That's at least how I took her >email. But only she knows for sure what she intended to do with >that "confidential" recording. >Chris >"The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The >real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that >exists. If a blind person has the proper training and >opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical >nuisance." >-- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, >1968-1986 >P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired >youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through >providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and >conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. >For more information about the Foundation and to support our >work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! >Sent from my BrailleNote Apex > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Amy Sabo" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >Date sent: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:49:19 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded >Audio >Hello Elizabeth, >First of all what format is this audio recording done in? is it >done in mp3 format or in wave format? After that there is a >program for formatting audio recordings called gold wave or you >can also use a program called cool edit. I have never used gold >wave but, I have used cool edit for editing my audio recordings. >To obtain both of these programs to download and use for both >gold wave I believe... >You can go to www.goldwwave.com to download the software and use >it. This is accessible with jfw. As for cool edit I don't have >the web site for that but, if you google cool edit you can find >it! >Anyway, I hope these and other information that I have given you >is helpful. Take care and good luck in your audio production >work. >Hugs, >amy >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth >Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:58 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio >Hello All, >I have a rather confidential recording that is approximately >three hours in >length that I would like to have transcribed. Does anyone have >any >recommendations about how I might be able to go about getting >this recording >transcribed? This recording is not a class lecture. I would >welcome any >ideas regardless if it involves a human transcriber or >transcribing >technology. If you have any ideas, please contact me off list. >Thanks, >Elizabeth >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co >mcast.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >m%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Fri Nov 18 18:36:12 2011 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:36:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: yes, I was most definitely interested in turning recorded audio into a readable transcript. I would do it myself except for the fact that listening to this recording would probably only upset me. I thought if I could simply read through a transcript of the recording that it would help take these emotions out of the equation so that I might be able to view the situation more objectively. however, I do not feel comfortable sharing the specific details regarding this situation on a public searchable email list. Thanks for those who have provided some viable solutions for turning recorded audio into a readable transcript. your ideas are greatly appreciated. Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Jacobson" Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 12:03 PM To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio > CoolEdit was purchased a long time ago by Adobe and became Adobe Audition. > Audition 1 and 1.5 looked > pretty much the same but version 2 changed in such a way as to not be very > accessible with screen > readers. Version 3 is better, but it generally requires some extra > support by screen readers, and it is > fairly expensive. > > Unless there is something happening with CoolEdit of which I am not aware, > and that is certainly > possible, any downloads you find would be very old and may not work with > current hardware or operating > systems, or worse yet, they may be bogus. Gold Wave is probably the best > bet, although I agree that the > original person was probably looking to transcribe rather than edit Audio. > > Some of the Audio editors let you "Time Stretch", though, which slows up a > recording without lowering > the pitch. Some find that it is possible to slow down a recording to a > point where one can listen and > transcribe without the need to start and stop the recording as much, > making transcribing easier. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:16:33 -0500, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >>Hi Amy, > >>Is Cool Edit free? If so, I'd be interested in downloading it! By >>the way, I think Elizabeth was trying to transcribe an audio >>recording into text (like a transcript,) not edit the audio >>recording and keep it audio. That's at least how I took her >>email. But only she knows for sure what she intended to do with >>that "confidential" recording. > >>Chris > >>"The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The >>real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that >>exists. If a blind person has the proper training and >>opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical >>nuisance." >>-- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, >>1968-1986 > >>P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired >>youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through >>providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and >>conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. >>For more information about the Foundation and to support our >>work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! > >>Sent from my BrailleNote Apex > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Amy Sabo" >To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>Date sent: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:49:19 -0700 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded >>Audio > >>Hello Elizabeth, > >>First of all what format is this audio recording done in? is it >>done in mp3 format or in wave format? After that there is a >>program for formatting audio recordings called gold wave or you >>can also use a program called cool edit. I have never used gold >>wave but, I have used cool edit for editing my audio recordings. >>To obtain both of these programs to download and use for both >>gold wave I believe... > >>You can go to www.goldwwave.com to download the software and use >>it. This is accessible with jfw. As for cool edit I don't have >>the web site for that but, if you google cool edit you can find >>it! > >>Anyway, I hope these and other information that I have given you >>is helpful. Take care and good luck in your audio production >>work. > > > > >>Hugs, >>amy > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth >>Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:58 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio > >>Hello All, > >>I have a rather confidential recording that is approximately >>three hours in >>length that I would like to have transcribed. Does anyone have >>any >>recommendations about how I might be able to go about getting >>this recording >>transcribed? This recording is not a class lecture. I would >>welcome any >>ideas regardless if it involves a human transcriber or >>transcribing >>technology. If you have any ideas, please contact me off list. > >>Thanks, >>Elizabeth > > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co >>mcast.net > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>m%40gmail.com > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From TAnnis at afb.net Fri Nov 18 18:55:01 2011 From: TAnnis at afb.net (Tara Annis) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:55:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or okay or so-so. A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff movements, but still appear "normal" What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a common problem. I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything on my part cause I'm blind." Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, preppie, average person, etc. I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is subconscious. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 19:08:52 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 14:08:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups In-Reply-To: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: <5737CA60429A4AA8BD768A6F3628BF3E@OwnerPC> Amen. I think blind people need to learn manners like moving out of the way, saying excuse me if you bump someone, etc. We cannot help being blind, but we can attempt to cut out strange movements like eye poking. By looking more normal, people won't focus on blindness, but see us for who we are. -----Original Message----- From: Tara Annis Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 1:55 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or okay or so-so. A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff movements, but still appear "normal" What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a common problem. I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything on my part cause I'm blind." Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, preppie, average person, etc. I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is subconscious. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kenneth.a.silberman at nasa.gov Thu Nov 17 23:52:26 2011 From: kenneth.a.silberman at nasa.gov (Silberman, Kenneth A. (GSFC-1600)) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 17:52:26 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NASA Is Looking for interns with Disabilities in Summer 2012! Message-ID: <561F7123C407A8478D26452078CFEDBD1BB6514A17@NDMSSCC02.ndc.nasa.gov> NASA is looking to increase the number of students with disabilities pursuing science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) careers through our internship programs. We have a two-percent hiring goal. Students can apply for summer internships now! The deadline for submitting applications is February 1, 2012. They can register for an account and look for internships anytime at the One Stop Shopping Initiative (OSSI): Student On-Line Application for Recruiting interns, fellows and scholars (SOLAR) at http://intern.nasa.gov/ . Summer 2012 internships run for ten weeks from early June through early/mid August. NASA internships are also offered during Spring, Fall and Year Long Sessions. Please see the attached recruitment letter, the recruitment flier, and the instructions for how to use the on-line application system. Also, please feel free to contact me for more information or help with applying. Kenneth A. Silberman, Esq. U.S. Supreme Court, Maryland, & Patent Bars B.A., M.Eng., J.D. NASA Engineer & Registered Patent Attorney Education Office Code 160 NASA/GSFC Mailstop 160 Bldg. 28 Rm. N165 Greenbelt, MD 20771, USA Voice: (301) 286-9281 Fax: (301) 286-1655 E-mail: kenneth.a.silberman at nasa.gov Office Location: Building 28 Room W151 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Disability Internship Recruitment.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 82116 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Recruitment flier 2012.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1073362 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OSSI-SOLAR Student Instructions.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 15993 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Promotion-technology mailing list Promotion-technology at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/promotion-technology_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Promotion-technology: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/promotion-technology_nfbnet.org/gymnastdave%40sbcglobal.net From carlymih at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 19:12:21 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:12:21 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] significance of signatures In-Reply-To: References: <4ec5d017.d421340a.6ff0.1014@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111118110716.01d57d90@earthlink.net> Hi, Patrick, I also have no eyesight whatsoever. I was given the same line by my folks, after not ever feeling comfortable with my signature. Yes, guides are helpful though most often one must resort to just eyeballing it, so to speak. for today, Car Then my parents told me about what we call the >doctor's signature. This just means that you sign your first initial, >draw a kind of wavy line, then sign the first letter of your last name >and do another wavy line. In terms of guides/cards, it's always handy >to have a signature guide nearby. Your signature doesn't have to be >perfect, it just has to be something that you can repeat over and over >again the same way. >Patrick > >On 11/17/11, vejas wrote: > > Hi, > > I am a freshman in high school and learning to improve my > > signature. I wanted some advice from you guys; how do you sign > > your names? How did you learn them? Did you just remember the > > shape of each letter? Do you use a writing guide or card? > > Thanks a lot. I'd really appreciate it because my signature is > > very important and will become very handy in the future. > > Thank you. > > Vejas > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri Nov 18 19:15:28 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:15:28 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Facial expressions and smiling unconsciously In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arielle, Oh no, sighted people will "pop a smile" when thinking of something funny or something that makes them smile. People probably just ask why you're smiling since it seems to happen with no provocation they're aware of. It may also be a segway into a conversation. Rest assured, though, that this isn't specific to people who are blind, but is something plenty of sighted people do. It's usually an unconscious reaction, but you're not alone in this behavior. And it also probably indicates that you're an expressive person. There's nothing odd in the behavior, and it's exhibited on all types of people regardless of not being able to see or having sight. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 12 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:29:37 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Tara and all, You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? Best, Arielle From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 19:34:20 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 12:34:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups In-Reply-To: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: Hi Tara, Makes sense, although I don't think it is practical to get rid of "weird" movements or expressions without replacing them with more normal ones. I think that movements such as rocking appear when blind people do not know what the culturally appropriate way of expressing themselves is and they come up with their own movements (again, happens unconsciously). If we tell them to stop rocking, making weird faces etc. but don't tell them what to do instead, it will be difficult to achieve the desired result because human beings (sighted and blind alike) have a hard time being completely still or void of facial expression. And, while I understand your complaints about manners, there are plenty of sighted people who stand in the middle of hallways, etc. High school memories anyone? Arielle On 11/18/11, Tara Annis wrote: > Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal > communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I > would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level > of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is > done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed > position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there > is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and > the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or > okay or so-so. > > A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these > movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange > movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary > to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation > being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff > movements, but still appear "normal" > What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on > an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally > weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the > blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a > common problem. > > I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to > the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart > walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop > when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people > off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost > impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try > and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove > people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are > people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted > people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything > on my part cause I'm blind." > > Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is > better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will > help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind > wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children > "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short > bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of > long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind > kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, > preppie, average person, etc. > > I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the > truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, > many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is > subconscious. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri Nov 18 19:44:59 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:44:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement and expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I danced for many years including ballet, including pointe. It's very true that ballet dancers learn to position, and move, their bodies in inorganic ways. The motion, when done well, is very graceful and fluid, but the process to harness the technique can take years and actually can do quite a number on your body. Though other dance forms like jazz or tap are not quite as unforgiving as ballet, they still require a lot of discipline to do, especially to master. However, if wanting to learn how to move more naturally, dance certainly can help. Many professional athletes take dance, including ballet, in order to move better on the field or pitch or rink or whatever the case may be. I also have a background in theatre and minored in it when at university back in 2000. Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes. Another way to learn a more natural body movement is to take modeling classes. Now, these can cost, but so can dance and acting classes- it's something to invesigate before signing up. Modeling classes will teach you specifically how to walk and how to use your face to relay things. Models on the runway often use an unnatural gate, but in modeling class itself, you learn how to carry yourself meaning you learn how to move in a graceful, fluid manner. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:54:04 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 19:53:16 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 14:53:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians In-Reply-To: <7CCD17A2F6C8411CBCAC05E3B7BBF97D@userPC> References: <3D81DA5893A24A499C89F9876DAB92D6@OwnerPC> <7CCD17A2F6C8411CBCAC05E3B7BBF97D@userPC> Message-ID: Most defanatly. What format is the chart? How easy is it to follow? I have an audio CD that describes the path of the meridians, and some of them are really easy to figure out, but others are confusing at least with the descriptions I have because the CD is designed to be listened to while looking at pictures which I can not see. Did you find the chart helpful? If so, how can I get ahold of one? Thank You so much Andi -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:21 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians Hi Andy, I have a chart that explains ware they go. Would that be helpful? Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andi Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:03 PM To: NFB Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians I am taking some classes in energy work to go along with massage tharapy. I am sertified in reiki, but am having trouble with meridian tharapy and sheotsu. Does anyone know where I can get a tactile picture or moddle of the body with the meridiens and acupressure pointsclearly defined? If there is not a place that already makes such a thing does anyone know how I might go about making it. Some of the meridians are complicated and they cross other meridians so each meridian would have to be tactually different. I think I would need two pictures/moddles, one to show just the meridians and the other to show the meridians with the acupressure points. If it were pictures rather than a moddle I would need a way to see it in 3D I think or a key that explained how the meridians travel along the back and sides of the body. It may have to be several pictures to get all angles of the body and a key to tell how the meridians connect from picture to picture. A moddle would probebly be the best way to go but I am open to all suggestions. I really appreciate any help, thank you so much. Andi _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 19:57:47 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 14:57:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facial expressions and smiling unconsciously In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <358FB317B2F64492AA2BCF4866F7FCB7@OwnerPC> Bridgit, nice to hear that; you were once sighted, so can tell us what happened -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:15 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Facial expressions and smiling unconsciously Arielle, Oh no, sighted people will "pop a smile" when thinking of something funny or something that makes them smile. People probably just ask why you're smiling since it seems to happen with no provocation they're aware of. It may also be a segway into a conversation. Rest assured, though, that this isn't specific to people who are blind, but is something plenty of sighted people do. It's usually an unconscious reaction, but you're not alone in this behavior. And it also probably indicates that you're an expressive person. There's nothing odd in the behavior, and it's exhibited on all types of people regardless of not being able to see or having sight. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 12 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:29:37 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Tara and all, You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 20:26:31 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111118052906.01d29868@earthlink.net> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20111118052906.01d29868@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70@gmail.com> Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by other minority groups. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-18, at 6:40 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Good morning, Arielle, > > I know I tend to use such gestures as a quick shrug of the shoulders to express nonchalantness since such a nonverbal expression seems to come naturally to me so I hope is somewhat believable. How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? What's the point? I Tara and all, >> You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it >> behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to >> express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at >> this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In >> particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals >> in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking >> annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we >> can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they >> ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, >> as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a >> conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but >> other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you >> who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good >> control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have >> made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons >> about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I >> think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always >> been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures >> routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, >> if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, >> with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. >> Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about >> something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's >> so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the >> impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume >> that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, >> but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the >> funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my >> attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and >> embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am >> thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I >> don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a >> graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: >> > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it >> > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers use, not >> > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what we >> > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big >> > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an >> > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens who >> > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted people >> > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes blind >> > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not saying >> > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people who >> > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are >> > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind people >> > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they want to >> > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people think of >> > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true to >> > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing with >> > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. >> > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This >> > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible to >> > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the sighted >> > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get this >> > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are dazing >> > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it looks to >> > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation >> > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind people >> > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just some >> > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of nonverbal >> > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the >> > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows disinterest, >> > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your body >> > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not see >> > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as >> > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this >> > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids with >> > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. I >> > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance camp >> > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the way >> > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing loudly at >> > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was mentally. >> > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt bad for >> > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. The >> > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if >> > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. Many >> > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif >> > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to say. >> > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look either >> > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal icebirg, >> > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are viewed. >> > Also you are right about understanding the body language of others, and >> > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being said >> > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different energy >> > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a person >> > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all >> > comunication is nonverbal. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Tara Annis >> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >> > >> > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings across >> > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is >> > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest >> > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many >> > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty in >> > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, do >> > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and a >> > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. >> > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a >> > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, >> > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one of >> > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting >> > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like >> > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to >> > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues to >> > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why >> > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their >> > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class where >> > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems >> > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking >> > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various >> > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, >> > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it is >> > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as >> > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. >> > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is displayed >> > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college >> > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from >> > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more >> > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my >> > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I >> > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish >> > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their half >> > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing to >> > do their half. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 21:22:00 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 14:22:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups In-Reply-To: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: <08AA37D7-FD5A-4194-AEC7-97003160B59D@gmail.com> Hi Tara, I really feel like your message demonstrates just how deeply you've internalized the notion that sight is right and blindness is ugliness. I think it's a terrible message to spread. Examples: Tara wrote, > A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. Since when does normal equal good, or better, or right? Normal is a statistical concept that we have unfortunately and mistakenly injected with the idea that normal is better than not normal. By strange movements, I assume you mean movements that the average sighted person does not make. Why exactly is it so important that blind people try to look and act like some sighted people? Is it also the case that non-whites should look and act like whites? Tara wrote, > Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will help the general public be at ease when communicating. This one I find even more disturbing. I'm sure we'd all be more at ease if we all looked and acted the same, but that does not mean it something worth striving for. I would much rather live in a world where someone's looking different didn't make others so uneasy than in a world where we encourage people to hide their differences in order to make others more comfortable. I could go on, but I think my point has been made. I hope that blind people do not believe that failing to look and act like the average sighted person means we are ugly, strange, weird, wrong and otherwise inferior. I completely reject that notion. Regards, Marc On 2011-11-18, at 11:55 AM, Tara Annis wrote: > Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or okay or so-so. > > A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff movements, but still appear "normal" > What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a common problem. > > I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything on my part cause I'm blind." > > Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, preppie, average person, etc. > > I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is subconscious. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 21:46:21 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:46:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70@gmail.com> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com><7.0.1.0.2.20111118052906.01d29868@earthlink.net> <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70@gmail.com> Message-ID: <964CB410DD7543DDA927272FD4EA1486@OwnerPC> Your comparing apples and oranges. Blind people can act more graceful, have expression, wear nice clothes, be competent with the alternative skills, and more showing that we can fit in. A minority like being say black cannot be changed. We cannot change blindness but we can and should stop rocking, eye poking and other things. There is someone in our nfb chapter who looks gross; I see him do this as I have tunnel vision. He moves his head up/down, side/side like an amimal, rocks his head, opens his moutth, making weird contortions, picks his nose, and just doesn't look good. Now other men are well dressed, have a still head, look at the speaker, and act more socially appropriate. Frankly, I'm embarrassed to be around someone like this in public; whether sighted or blind, but particularly blind person since its creates a steretypical image! -----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by other minority groups. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-18, at 6:40 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Good morning, Arielle, > > I know I tend to use such gestures as a quick shrug of the shoulders to > express nonchalantness since such a nonverbal expression seems to come > naturally to me so I hope is somewhat believable. How can facial > expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not > naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on > nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? What's the > point? I Tara and all, >> You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it >> behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to >> express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at >> this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In >> particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals >> in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking >> annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we >> can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they >> ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, >> as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a >> conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but >> other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you >> who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good >> control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have >> made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons >> about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I >> think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always >> been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures >> routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, >> if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, >> with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. >> Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about >> something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's >> so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the >> impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume >> that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, >> but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the >> funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my >> attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and >> embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am >> thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I >> don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a >> graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: >> > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it >> > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers >> > use, not >> > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what >> > we >> > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big >> > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an >> > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens >> > who >> > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted >> > people >> > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes >> > blind >> > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not >> > saying >> > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people >> > who >> > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are >> > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind >> > people >> > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they >> > want to >> > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people >> > think of >> > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true >> > to >> > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing >> > with >> > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. >> > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This >> > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible >> > to >> > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the >> > sighted >> > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get >> > this >> > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are >> > dazing >> > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it >> > looks to >> > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation >> > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind >> > people >> > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just >> > some >> > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of >> > nonverbal >> > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the >> > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows >> > disinterest, >> > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your >> > body >> > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not >> > see >> > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as >> > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this >> > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids >> > with >> > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. >> > I >> > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance >> > camp >> > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the >> > way >> > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing >> > loudly at >> > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was >> > mentally. >> > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt >> > bad for >> > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. >> > The >> > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if >> > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. >> > Many >> > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif >> > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to >> > say. >> > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look >> > either >> > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal >> > icebirg, >> > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are >> > viewed. >> > Also you are right about understanding the body language of >> > others, and >> > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being >> > said >> > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different >> > energy >> > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a >> > person >> > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all >> > comunication is nonverbal. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Tara Annis >> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >> > >> > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings >> > across >> > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what >> > is >> > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest >> > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many >> > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit >> > cruelty in >> > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but >> > some, do >> > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth >> > and a >> > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal >> > communication. >> > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow >> > a >> > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind >> > person, >> > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think >> > one of >> > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not >> > attempting >> > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like >> > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication >> > to >> > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person >> > continues to >> > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is >> > why >> > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their >> > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class >> > where >> > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it >> > seems >> > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are >> > talking >> > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the >> > various >> > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly >> > irritated, >> > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes >> > it is >> > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as >> > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. >> > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is >> > displayed >> > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college >> > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me >> > from >> > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more >> > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my >> > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that >> > I >> > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish >> > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their >> > half >> > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be >> > willing to >> > do their half. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 21:57:20 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:57:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Upcoming NFB Colorado State Convention Message-ID: <4ec6d4e9.2673340a.5d11.7afe@mx.google.com> Great! Always love to hear what other affiliates are doing. You guys had a BELL Program? I didn't know there was one in VA. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" ,"National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Hi Bridgit, I'm sorry I took that too literally, as it wasn't meant to be taken that way. A lot of people get those two forms of government mixed up, and I have to explain to them that we're not a true democracy. If we were, all decisions would be made by the people. Well who knows, maybe that would be better. LOL Anyway, I don't think the discrimination that we are currently faced with in this country is not because of the laws and system of government because we now have a lot of anti-discrimination laws in place; the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, The Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act (IDEA,) and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA.) So, what laws that haven't been repealed are supporting discrimination against us? We almost had one in the subminimum wage bill, but thank God that was voted down. Now we just need cosponsors for the replacement bill, the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. Has anyone on this list contacted their Congresspeople? If so, what were your experiences? Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Thanks, Arielle! I know the feeling! When stuff like that happens, I'm usually too shocked to come up with a comeback. I'll never understand the ignorance, if not sheer stupidity, of the public. As for that story from Washington Seminar... wow! Huh? At least she didn't say something about thanking God because you were so beautiful for a blind person! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman wrote: Hi Beth, Now, I have to first say to everyone that this is a good discussion, but I hope we don't get too off topic, and I really hope this discussion doesn't turn into another one like the one we had in September. Not saying that anyone is doing anything like that, but just a fair warning. Beth, as for all religions, there are radicals in all religions. There are a few Muslims who I know (including you now, BTW, give me a call on Skype sometime, haven't been able to get a hold of you on Skype in a while,) and my beliefs on the Muslim religion as a whole have changed since I met one. I first thought that they were some radical religious movement which believed in terrorism and holy war. But I learned that this isn't the case for many Muslims; in fact, many of you denounce (or at least don't agree with) what the extremists do. Similarly, while I respect your ability to make decisions about your religious beliefs and your conversion to Islam, I just want to let you know that many Christians (like myself and other blind Christians) don't believe what your family members believe. I have never run into problems at my church with Christianity and blindness, and I don't think a lot of Christians believe that blindness is unbearable. Well, let's just point out that many members of the sighted public, regardless of their religion, believe that blindness is unbearable. The only time I ran into any problems with misconceptions about blindness and religion together was when I was on an O and M lesson in my hometown this summer and a really elderly gengleman came up to us (my instructor and I) just as I was preparing to cross the street, (he scared me a little) and started asking my teacher (like she was supposed to be speaking for me) if I wanted to be put on his church's prayer list. Thankfully, she told him that he could ask me and that I was old enough to make those kinds of decisions on my own. When he (reluctantly enough) finally asked me, I answered, "Thank you for the consideration, but why exactly do you want to pray for me? I'm not sick, nor am I in some kind of emotional trouble." He answered that he wanted to pray for me because I was "um... unsighted" and he wanted Jesus to "heal" me. Then, once again turning to my teacher, he asked, "How long has he been that way?" That's right, "that way!" He couldn't even bring himself to say the word blind, lest the mere mention of the word offend me, even when he knew I was travelling and functioning pretty independently and confidently, and seemed to have no problem whatsoever with the fact that I was blind! She then prompted him once again to talk to me, and he asked me the question. Politely enough, I answered "I was born blind," putting a little emphasis on the word blind. Starting to stare at me in what was probably wonder at my independence, he said, "You're born that way! Well, that's something! Well we'll pray for you!" I thanked him for the prayer, and said that "if you put me on your prayer list, I hope you will also pray that sighted people will see that blind people can be on terms of equality with them, and that we're just as capable as them, although we might do things differently. If sighted people see this, then I pray that there will be no more discrimination against the blind just because we're blind." I didn't say those exact words, but it was pretty much the same. So there you have it. Misconceptions rear their ugly head yet again, and I hope I got the point across. To close, I will say this; you've probably heard the old saying "Agitate, agitate, agitate." Well, for us, it's "Educate, educate, educate!" Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Beth Arielle, RoboBraille and Online Converter both work with any type of PDF file, even image PDF's. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman wrote: That's neat! Thanks for shareing! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of vejas Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] an awesome online converter Hi. My computer teacher from CSB told me about an amazing site that can convert your documents in a matter of minutes! This site converts PDF files into DOC and TXT files, as well as other types. It's called Robo-Braille. Here's what you would want to do to turn a PDF into a DOC: 1. Send the e-mail !convert at robobraille.org. For your andbject, type in doc, then attach the PDF file on to your e-mail. Don't write anything in the message; just send it. Soon after (5-minus minutes, on average, I would say), Robo-Braille will send you the DOC file as an attachment. It's awesome and requires no upgrades. I hope you like it and find it handy. Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 21:57:35 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:57:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course Message-ID: <4ec6d4f8.2673340a.5d11.7b14@mx.google.com> There are also statistics functions on the calculators in the notetakers. I know there are statistics functions in the BrailleNote, and I think there are also in the BrailleSense and PacMate. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman wrote: Hi Greg, In addition to the on-line resources Arielle referred to, I would also like to mention that Microsoft Excel actually has a variety of built-in statistical functions. It doesn't run t-tests or ANOVAs, but it does allow you to look up the p-value of a particular z-score or vice versa. You can also use it to look up critical values on the f or t distribution after inputting the specific degrees of freedom you want. Hope this helps! Katie On 11/12/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: Hi Greg, I found an online table of critical values for the T-statistic at http://www.jeremymiles.co.uk/misc/tables/t-test.html That is the most common table you'll use. You can also go to www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm and do the following: 1. Select the third option, "statistical distributions and interpreting p-vvalues". 2. Select the second option, "calculate z, f, t, or chi-square from a probability". 3. To find the critical value for z, enter your alpha level (it will usually be .05) in the "probability" box and click "compute z". To find the critical value for a T-test, enter your alpha level in the "probability" box as above and your degrees of freedom in the "df" box, and then click "compute t". If what you are needing to do is to find the probability for a given z or t-statistic, go to graphpad as above, select "statistical distributions and interpreting p-values" as above. Then select the first option, "calculate p from z, t, f, or chi-square". Enter the z or t-statistic you have in the relevant box and click "compute p from z" or "compute p from t" accordingly. The calculator will tell you the probability. I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if I misunderstood what you need to do with the critical value table or if my suggestions don't work. Best, Arielle On 11/12/11, Icewolf wrote: Hello Arielle, I am taking an introductory stats course. Do you know of a good online source for the critical value table that reads well with JAWS? The one in my book is kinda hard to follow. This stats stuff can be confusing. I am onto probabilities at the moment now. Thanks, Greg Wocher Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of all days. On 11/12/2011 12:49 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: Hi all, As I said, I have taken two undergraduate and two graduate statistics courses. I agree that Braille textbooks are ideal, but I don't think Braille is the only way to learn the material. In fact, due to resource limitations at my university and some philosophical disagreements I had with my DSS office, I never had a Braille stats textbook, and I still did well in the course. For the first course I used E-text, and for the second course I used a recorded book from RFBD (now Learning Ally) on one of those old analog audiocassettes. Believe it or not, I had a better experience with the audio textbook than I did with the E-text, because some formulas and equations don't read properly with JAWS, but the RFBD reader was great at reading formulas and equations and describing diagrams. The secret when using an audio textbook is to take detailed notes, preferably in Braille on a slate or with a refreshable Braille notetaker like a Braille Note or Pac Mate. Copy down all the formulas you hear verbatim, so you can make yourself your own Braille equation book or file to study. Don't worry about proper Nemeth code; the key is to write it down in a way that makes sense to you, and that you can refer back to later. The same notetaking method is invaluable to use in class. In graduate-level stats, the textbook was optional and almost identical to the lecture material. I had a PDF copy of the text, but never read beyond the first chapter. (My sighted boyfriend didn't read the textbook either, and got a better grade in the class than I did :). I did my stats homework assignments on a regular computer in MS-Word, but used my Braille Note as a notepad to copy down data sets and to perform computations. Doing homework assignments on the Braille Note itself is also an option, although making your answers legible to a sighted grader requires some computer Braille knowledge, so I preferred to write my answers on the computer. Regarding an accessible stats calculator: again, I would recommend www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm It will do most introductory stat functions, is completely accessible, and is Web-based, so it can be used on your personal computer without having to purchase software. Despite the name, it is not graphical. In fact, I learned about it when I was a TA for a research methods course and my professor preferred teaching it rather than having our students learn a software application. If you are about to enroll in stats, I would suggest asking your professor if you can use Graphpad instead of whatever software program the rest of the class is using. If you are doing more advanced statistics work or analyzing your own data, you may want to invest in a software program. Both SAS and R are accessible, and R is free. (SPSS is more commonly used, but I have had some accessibility issues with it myself and I have heard conflicting things about whether newer versions are accessible). As a graduate student I got my department to buy and renew my SAS license so I can analyze my data, and I imagine most departments should be able to provide this accommodation especially if you are on a graduate student stipend. Finally, regarding those pesky graphs and diagrams: In my experience, graphs and diagrams are just one tool for understanding statistical concepts. Statistics itself is not a graphical field; performing statistical analyses requires the application of mathematical formulas but not the interpretation of graphs. Stats is taught to sighted students in a graphical way because this is the way many sighted people prefer to learn, but it is just one way of communicating the conceptual knowledge. Some blind students find the graphs helpful, while other blind students prefer to focus on the formulas and the mathematical side of things. Once you get beyond the first month of the course, it is mostly about doing a calculation and seeing if the number you get is greater than or less than another number you find in a table (called the critical value). This is relatively straightforward and requires no graphical information. By all means, though, if you are having trouble following the course or think a graph would be helpful, you should talk to your professor or teaching assistant in their office hours, or hire a tutor. Most professors and TA's would love to get more office-hour visits than they generally get in a semester. Again, I would be happy to talk one-on-one with anybody who is doing statistics or social science research, or to present about techniques for stats and research (including online and library research) at a NABS conference call or breakout session. Some of this stuff is better explained in person, but it is all important and relevant to most blind college students at some point in your career. Best, Arielle On 11/8/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: I am currently enrolled in a statistics course. My college brailled the necessary parts of the book that I needed. I could have not done it without the book being brailled. So if I were to say the things that will make you successful in a statistics course, are: brailled book, accessible statistic calculater, and perhaps a tutor that can help you understand the graphics, diagrams and the like. I would say, you will need to push your college or university to Braille the book. Don't give up, because they will and can do it. Mine said they could not, but I made a good case in that it would help me understand the materials better. Good luck! Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miranda Morse Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:13 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Statistics Course Hi Everyone, For those of you have taken statistics, what is the best way to go about doing that? Should I get the book in braille, hire a reader, or has anyone successfully used a PDF format for this course. Miranda _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth %40gmail.co m __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6612 (20111108) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6612 (20111108) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%4 0gtwebdesign.us _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 21:57:18 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:57:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities Message-ID: <4ec6d4e7.2673340a.5d11.7afd@mx.google.com> Hi=20Jedi, Yes,=20you're=20right.=20=20Representative=20democracy,=20republic;=20prett= y=20 much=20the=20same=20thing,=20but=20you=20are=20right=20in=20all=20your=20po= ints.=20=20Our=20 politicians=20have=20forgotten=20that=20they=20are=20there=20to=20answer=20= to=20the=20 people,=20not=20the=20other=20way=20around.=20=20I=20could=20go=20a=20lot=20= longer=20on=20 this=20subject,=20but=20I=20don't=20want=20to=20be=20thrown=20off=20the=20l= ist!=20LOL! Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Jedi=20 Message-ID: While I understand where you're coming from, I disagree about a blind person covering their eyes just to make sighted people feel more at ease. Many of us where sunglasses for various reasons. I where mine on days when light is causing extra sensitivity or when I opt to not wear make-up, smile. I have a friend who wears sunglasses to hide scar tissue and another to hide a glass eye. I think it's time the world learn to accept people as they are. If glass eyes, or eyes with scarring, or cloudiness, cause discomfort among sighted people, does this mean we need start concealing missing limbs, birth, or accident related, deformaties, scarring on burn victims? The list is endless. I understand your comments, and I understand why some choose to cover up any "abnormality" with their eyes, but I think this is unjustly unfair. We, to some degree, have sway over how we act and present ourselves to the public, but for many, they have no control over the function, or lack thereof, color or clarity of their eyes. We shouldn't teach blind kids to conceal something they can't control, but instead we should educate society to accept that disability is a part of life and to be comfortable with people who may have a physical deformity (for lack of a better word at the moment) scar, missing limb, cognitive impairment or any other "abnormal" issue. I think it all goes back to us, the disabled people, having to fit into a mold in order to make others feel more comfortable, or taking submissive roles so society doesn't feel awkward. We shouldn't have to take extra measures in terms of a physical aspect out of our control just so others feel better. We're human and have feelings. What about the world taking extra measures so we feel less uncomfortable around those who aren't disabled or have a physical condition considered abnormal? I agree that people who are blind can learn how to dress and interact in ways that are more socially acceptable, but hiding your eyes because they make others uncomfortable seems like the wrong message. Perhaps this is a bit of a leap, but we once were relegated to dark corners and institutionalized just so society didn't have to literally look at us, causing them discomfort and guilt. Is covering eyes, limbs, scars, fractures, etc. just a new way of relegating us into a different kind of dark corner? Hide as much of us as possible so we don't frighten the nondisabled population? God forbid people with disabilities get to feel human for once. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 3 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:55:01 -0500 From: Tara Annis To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups Message-ID: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9 at KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int. digex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or okay or so-so. A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff movements, but still appear "normal" What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a common problem. I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything on my part cause I'm blind." Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, preppie, average person, etc. I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is subconscious. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 22:38:06 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:38:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost Message-ID: <4ec6de77.a26e340a.45b4.7e31@mx.google.com> I=20usually=20do=20choices=20B,=20D,=20or=20E,=20never=20C.=20=20I=20can't= =20believe=20an=20 OandM=20teacher=20taught=20you=20to=20do=20C!=20I=20wouldn't=20do=20A=20bec= ause=20it's=20a=20 waste=20of=20time=20and=20money.=20=20How=20are=20you=20going=20to=20call=20= the=20cops=20and=20 ask=20them=20where=20you=20are=20when=20you=20can't=20tell=20them=20anythin= g=20about=20 the=20area=20around=20you?=20You're=20lost,=20right?=20And=20if=20you=20cal= led=20911,=20 which=20has=20technology=20that=20tells=20the=20dispatcher=20where=20you=20= are,=20 it's=20still=20a=20waste=20of=20time,=20as=20911=20is=20used=20for=20emerge= ncies,=20and=20 getting=20lost=201,=20isn't=20an=20emergency,=20and=202,=20can=20be=20fixed= =20in=20other=20 ways=20than=20by=20calling=20the=20emergency=20hotline. Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20 References: <4ec6d4e9.2673340a.5d11.7afe@mx.google.com> Message-ID: yes two bell programs -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Upcoming NFB Colorado State Convention Great! Always love to hear what other affiliates are doing. You guys had a BELL Program? I didn't know there was one in VA. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" ,"National Association of Blind Students mailing list" References: Message-ID: <9939142F72334B61898CF22B5FC9B253@OwnerPC> well, light is a factor, one reason to cover eyes. another one is appearance. If it detracts from your looks, you do what you need to do for acceptance. I think doing this on a job interview would help get you a job. -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 5:36 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes While I understand where you're coming from, I disagree about a blind person covering their eyes just to make sighted people feel more at ease. Many of us where sunglasses for various reasons. I where mine on days when light is causing extra sensitivity or when I opt to not wear make-up, smile. I have a friend who wears sunglasses to hide scar tissue and another to hide a glass eye. I think it's time the world learn to accept people as they are. If glass eyes, or eyes with scarring, or cloudiness, cause discomfort among sighted people, does this mean we need start concealing missing limbs, birth, or accident related, deformaties, scarring on burn victims? The list is endless. I understand your comments, and I understand why some choose to cover up any "abnormality" with their eyes, but I think this is unjustly unfair. We, to some degree, have sway over how we act and present ourselves to the public, but for many, they have no control over the function, or lack thereof, color or clarity of their eyes. We shouldn't teach blind kids to conceal something they can't control, but instead we should educate society to accept that disability is a part of life and to be comfortable with people who may have a physical deformity (for lack of a better word at the moment) scar, missing limb, cognitive impairment or any other "abnormal" issue. I think it all goes back to us, the disabled people, having to fit into a mold in order to make others feel more comfortable, or taking submissive roles so society doesn't feel awkward. We shouldn't have to take extra measures in terms of a physical aspect out of our control just so others feel better. We're human and have feelings. What about the world taking extra measures so we feel less uncomfortable around those who aren't disabled or have a physical condition considered abnormal? I agree that people who are blind can learn how to dress and interact in ways that are more socially acceptable, but hiding your eyes because they make others uncomfortable seems like the wrong message. Perhaps this is a bit of a leap, but we once were relegated to dark corners and institutionalized just so society didn't have to literally look at us, causing them discomfort and guilt. Is covering eyes, limbs, scars, fractures, etc. just a new way of relegating us into a different kind of dark corner? Hide as much of us as possible so we don't frighten the nondisabled population? God forbid people with disabilities get to feel human for once. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 3 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:55:01 -0500 From: Tara Annis To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups Message-ID: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9 at KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int. digex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or okay or so-so. A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff movements, but still appear "normal" What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a common problem. I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything on my part cause I'm blind." Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, preppie, average person, etc. I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is subconscious. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 23:30:21 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:30:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: <4A832A76B32041FCA8C5EEB17E6ABD76@OwnerPC> Arielle, I wasn't taught to gesture, but I would think that practice in gestures, facial expressions, and movements would help. You don't control expressions. Usually, you feel a way, and look it. Like if someone is happy, they look happy. No one creates expressions; they are felt internally and the face and eyes reflect those feelings. Acting might be a way to become expressive. I've always not understood why some blind people seem so monotone and expressionless. No smile, just a stiff face; I see it but mainly hear it too. You can hear expressions. I guess what I'm saying is expressions should be natural, since they're how you feel, not something faked for good appearance. Actors have to imagine the feelings and become the character they portray; that is how they have so much expression. A way to practice expressiveness could be reading a book out loud also. When characters exclaim something, feel sad, etc, say it with that feeling in mind, and maybe your facial expression will follow. I haven't learned gestures, but if someone showed me hand over hand with an explanation when to use them, I think I'd catch on quickly. As to your expression, I thought it was only me. When I think of something funny, a big grin comes to my face, and I do not even realize it. People ask what it is. I usually respond, Oh, I'm just in a good mood, or something like it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:29 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Hi Tara and all, You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? Best, Arielle On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers use, > not > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what we > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens > who > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted people > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes blind > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not > saying > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people who > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind > people > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they want > to > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people think > of > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true to > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing > with > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible to > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the sighted > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get > this > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are dazing > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it looks > to > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind > people > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just some > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of nonverbal > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows disinterest, > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your body > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not see > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids with > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. I > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance camp > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the way > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing loudly > at > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was > mentally. > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt bad > for > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. The > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. Many > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to say. > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look > either > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal > icebirg, > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are > viewed. > Also you are right about understanding the body language of others, > and > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being said > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different energy > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a person > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all > comunication is nonverbal. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tara Annis > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings > across > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty > in > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, > do > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and > a > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one > of > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues > to > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class > where > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it > is > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is > displayed > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me > from > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their > half > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing > to > do their half. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 22:11:03 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:11:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups In-Reply-To: <08AA37D7-FD5A-4194-AEC7-97003160B59D@gmail.com> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> <08AA37D7-FD5A-4194-AEC7-97003160B59D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F843755FB7E49D58219AC39B47E5FD0@OwnerPC> Mark, Maybe if you could see them or someone described those strange behaviors called blindisms, you'd feel different. Particularly for women, learning to be graceful, confident, show expression and have manners goes a long way. You know people will remember you for being polite and curteous. They will remember your actions. They will remember if you were a sloppy eater or neat one. They will remember if you picked your nose. YYou see my point. We live in sighted world. If a public member sees you, their image is formed from that one image. We shouldn't represent all blind people, the minority of us, but we do; people judge one and attribute it to all. I'm not saying we should try too hard. But just saying we should observe American customs of manners, behavior, eye contact, hand shakes, and yes some nonverbals. -----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 4:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups Hi Tara, I really feel like your message demonstrates just how deeply you've internalized the notion that sight is right and blindness is ugliness. I think it's a terrible message to spread. Examples: Tara wrote, > A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these > movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange > movements than to learn "normal" body language. Since when does normal equal good, or better, or right? Normal is a statistical concept that we have unfortunately and mistakenly injected with the idea that normal is better than not normal. By strange movements, I assume you mean movements that the average sighted person does not make. Why exactly is it so important that blind people try to look and act like some sighted people? Is it also the case that non-whites should look and act like whites? Tara wrote, > Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It > is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it > will help the general public be at ease when communicating. This one I find even more disturbing. I'm sure we'd all be more at ease if we all looked and acted the same, but that does not mean it something worth striving for. I would much rather live in a world where someone's looking different didn't make others so uneasy than in a world where we encourage people to hide their differences in order to make others more comfortable. I could go on, but I think my point has been made. I hope that blind people do not believe that failing to look and act like the average sighted person means we are ugly, strange, weird, wrong and otherwise inferior. I completely reject that notion. Regards, Marc On 2011-11-18, at 11:55 AM, Tara Annis wrote: > Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal > communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I > would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level > of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication > is done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a > relaxed position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently > learned there is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was > your work day and the person would use this gesture as they verbally say > it was all right or okay or so-so. > > A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these > movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange > movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely > necessary to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the > situation being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person > can have stiff movements, but still appear "normal" > What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person > on an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any > totally weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken > Jennings the blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so > this seems to be a common problem. > > I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to > the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart > walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop > when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people > off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost > impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try > and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove > people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are > people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted > people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do > anything on my part cause I'm blind." > > Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It > is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it > will help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some > blind wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their > children "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a > really short bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to > take care of long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to > see more blind kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, > hippie, skater, preppie, average person, etc. > > I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the > truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, > many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is > subconscious. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 22:38:07 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:38:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] what do you do if you get lost Message-ID: <4ec6de79.a26e340a.45b4.7e35@mx.google.com> Great=20strategies,=20Jewel!=20Whether=20blind=20or=20sighted,=20it's=20OK= =20to=20get=20 lost.=20=20It=20happens=20to=20us=20all. Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Jewel=20=20 wrote: =20Ok,=20bare=20with=20me=20here=20for=20a=20moment,=20and=20excuse=20my=20= language. =20When=20you=20get=20lost=20do=20you =20a:=20call=20the=20cops=20and=20ask=20them=20where=20you=20are,=20and=20w= aste=20money=20in=20 the=20process? =20b:=20wave=20down=20a=20cop=20when=20you=20don=92t=20know=20if=20one=20is= =20near=20you? =20c:=20wave=20your=20hands=20around=20and=20make=20other=20blind=20people= =20look=20like=20 jak=20asses=20in =20the=20eyes=20of=20an=20already=20general=20populous=20who=20think=20blin= d=20people=20 are=20incapable =20of=20doing=20anything=20for=20themselves? =20d:=20go=20in=20to=20a=20business=20and=20ask=20someone=20where=20you=20a= re,=20or=20just=20 simply=20try=20and =20ask=20someone=20on=20the=20street=20for=20directions =20e:=20try=20to=20get=20your=20bearings=20together=20and=20find=20your=20o= wn=20way. =20I=20ask=20this=20because=20I=20know=20of=20someone=20who=20was=20tought= =20to=20do=20what=20 a,=20b,=20and=20c =20say=20to=20do.=20=20I=20was=20tought=20by=20two=20outstanding=20mobility= =20instructors=20 to=20do=20what =20d=20says,=20and=20tought=20myself=20e.=20=20I=20want=20to=20know=20what= =20you=20all=20out=20 their=20think. =20I=20personally=20think=20that=20making=20blind=20people=20look=20like=20= helpless=20 jack=20asses =20and=20wasting=20money=20on=20unesesary=20calls=20is=20pointless.=20=20I= =92m=20almost=20 sure=20most =20mobility=20instructors=20would=20teach=20their=20students=20to=20do=20wh= at=20 choice=20d=20asks. =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail..com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 22:10:30 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:10:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] for Sean Message-ID: <4ec6d7ff.84b8340a.1db5.793c@mx.google.com> Hi Beth, For this, you would email the Slate Committee at slate at nabslink.org. You could also email Karen Anderson, the editor, at kea.anderson at gmail.com. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Beth References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: <4BA801E9AA01432282A8293C80D8CAA2@userPC> Ariel yes that memory of people standing in the high scholl hallway when I was trying to get threw is a memory I still remember.! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:34 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups Hi Tara, Makes sense, although I don't think it is practical to get rid of "weird" movements or expressions without replacing them with more normal ones. I think that movements such as rocking appear when blind people do not know what the culturally appropriate way of expressing themselves is and they come up with their own movements (again, happens unconsciously). If we tell them to stop rocking, making weird faces etc. but don't tell them what to do instead, it will be difficult to achieve the desired result because human beings (sighted and blind alike) have a hard time being completely still or void of facial expression. And, while I understand your complaints about manners, there are plenty of sighted people who stand in the middle of hallways, etc. High school memories anyone? Arielle On 11/18/11, Tara Annis wrote: > Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal > communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I > would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level > of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is > done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed > position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there > is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and > the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or > okay or so-so. > > A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these > movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange > movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary > to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation > being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff > movements, but still appear "normal" > What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on > an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally > weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the > blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a > common problem. > > I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to > the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart > walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop > when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people > off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost > impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try > and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove > people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are > people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted > people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything > on my part cause I'm blind." > > Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is > better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will > help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind > wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children > "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short > bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of > long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind > kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, > preppie, average person, etc. > > I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the > truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, > many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is > subconscious. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 00:20:53 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:20:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups In-Reply-To: <4BA801E9AA01432282A8293C80D8CAA2@userPC> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> <4BA801E9AA01432282A8293C80D8CAA2@userPC> Message-ID: but other people's rudeness does not excuse any of our behavior. Sorry to say I've seen too many rude people at conventions. Like they stand in the doorway blocking your path or answer their phone right in the middle of a speaker. Good grief. Go outside if you want to have a conversation with a partner in person or on the phone! -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 9:51 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups Ariel yes that memory of people standing in the high scholl hallway when I was trying to get threw is a memory I still remember.! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:34 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups Hi Tara, Makes sense, although I don't think it is practical to get rid of "weird" movements or expressions without replacing them with more normal ones. I think that movements such as rocking appear when blind people do not know what the culturally appropriate way of expressing themselves is and they come up with their own movements (again, happens unconsciously). If we tell them to stop rocking, making weird faces etc. but don't tell them what to do instead, it will be difficult to achieve the desired result because human beings (sighted and blind alike) have a hard time being completely still or void of facial expression. And, while I understand your complaints about manners, there are plenty of sighted people who stand in the middle of hallways, etc. High school memories anyone? Arielle On 11/18/11, Tara Annis wrote: > Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal > communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I > would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level > of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is > done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed > position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there > is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and > the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or > okay or so-so. > > A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these > movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange > movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary > to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation > being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff > movements, but still appear "normal" > What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on > an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally > weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the > blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a > common problem. > > I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to > the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart > walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop > when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people > off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost > impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try > and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove > people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are > people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted > people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything > on my part cause I'm blind." > > Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is > better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will > help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind > wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children > "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short > bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of > long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind > kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, > preppie, average person, etc. > > I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the > truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, > many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is > subconscious. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 00:33:51 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:33:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <964CB410DD7543DDA927272FD4EA1486@OwnerPC> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20111118052906.01d29868@earthlink.net> <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70@gmail.com> <964CB410DD7543DDA927272FD4EA1486@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Mark, First of all, your view makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. I like it, and find it refreshing. It is radical, and most members of the blind community will probably not agree with it, but it is worth some consideration. I can definitely relate to the frustration of being expected to conform to a set of nonverbal customs shared by the sighted. I agree that expecting us to put forth extra effort to adopt the customs of the sighted is an unfair burden. However, it is worth noting that just in terms of sheer numbers, the blind is much smaller than other minority groups, such as racial groups. I have been told that only .1% or so of the U.S. population is legally blind. Because of our small numbers, it is difficult if not impossible for the blind to avoid judgment or evaluation by the sighted, or even for us to set up a viable shared culture. The sighted still control access to resources, such as jobs, educational opportunities etc. Part of this is due to unjust power hierarchies, but much of it is due to sheer numbers, which is not something we can change. So, as a matter of pragmatics of survival, conformity is often the best way. In other words, if we are applying for jobs, the vast majority of employers out there will be sighted and will have certain expectations about how their employees dress and look, so it is in our best interest to try to meet these expectations. I also agree with you that "isms" such as rocking are not inherently wrong or harmful. Again, this is an unpopular view among our community, but I think it has merit. The only reason that these "isms" cause us grief is because they stand out and differ from the means of nonverbal expression shared by the sighted majority. Just to share a brief anecdote: When my (sighted) boyfriend and I first started dating, the first time we had a chat while I had my arm around him, he was gesturing with his hands while talking and I thought it was weird. It took me a little getting used to because that's not how I communicate, and I had never been intimate with a sighted person before and paid that much attention to their hand movements. Of course I got over this, but this was my initial reaction. Similarly, many of us get weirded out by rocking and the like, in part because these behaviors aren't shared by the sighted public, and also because they tend to remind people of cognitive disorders such as autism. People who have difficulty imitating the body movements of others because of brain disorders, like autism, also display behaviors like rocking etc. So when people see us with "isms" they associate us with mental disability (and many blind people do too, because they have learned these associations as well). Unfortunately, blindisms have a meaning beyond kinky hair or other features distinctive of certain racial groups. I don't think it's right, but that is what it is. I don't think there's an easy solution to this problem, but in general, I think we need to evaluate how we act in different situations and match our behaviors to those situations. In situations where we are being evaluated by the sighted (job interviews, dates, etc.) I think conformity is important to maximize our chances of attaining opportunities. In other situations, such as when we are alone or with people we trust (close friends, etc.) I'd say do what you want, so long as your behavior is not harming or inconveniencing others. It's not right for us to be constantly monitoring ourselves and aiming to conform to sighted norms all the time. But nor is it good for us to miss out on opportunities because we failed to give our self-presentations enough attention. Best, Arielle On 11/18/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Your comparing apples and oranges. Blind people can act more graceful, have > expression, wear nice clothes, be competent with the alternative skills, and > more showing that we can fit in. A minority like being say black cannot be > changed. > We cannot change blindness but we can and should stop rocking, eye poking > and other things. There is someone in our nfb chapter who looks gross; I see > him do this as I have tunnel vision. He moves his head up/down, side/side > like an amimal, rocks his head, opens his moutth, making weird contortions, > picks his nose, and just doesn't look good. Now other men are well dressed, > have a still head, look at the speaker, and act more socially appropriate. > Frankly, I'm embarrassed to be around someone like this in public; whether > sighted or blind, but particularly blind person since its creates a > steretypical image! > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marc Workman > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > Carly wrote, > How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they > are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of > put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? > > I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind > people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting > there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it > makes me uncomfortable. > > The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I > think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act > like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do > for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed > the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of > appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how > common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from > his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful > process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian > descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. > These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the > dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also > often happens. > > I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may > be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling > pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more > like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So > what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to > adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some > sighted people? > > You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. > There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable > to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It > may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful > and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act > white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it > just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics > in order to be successful. > > What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and > act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of > differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called > blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I > do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance > possessed by other minority groups. > > Cheers, > > Marc > On 2011-11-18, at 6:40 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> >> >> Good morning, Arielle, >> >> I know I tend to use such gestures as a quick shrug of the shoulders to >> express nonchalantness since such a nonverbal expression seems to come >> naturally to me so I hope is somewhat believable. How can facial >> expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not >> naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on >> >> nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? What's the >> point? I Tara and all, >>> You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it >>> behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to >>> express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at >>> this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In >>> particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals >>> in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking >>> annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we >>> can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they >>> ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, >>> as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a >>> conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but >>> other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you >>> who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good >>> control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have >>> made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons >>> about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I >>> think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always >>> been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures >>> routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, >>> if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, >>> with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. >>> Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about >>> something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's >>> so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the >>> impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume >>> that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, >>> but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the >>> funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my >>> attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and >>> embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am >>> thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I >>> don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a >>> graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: >>> > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it >>> > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers >>> > use, not >>> > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what >>> > >>> > we >>> > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big >>> > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an >>> > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens >>> > >>> > who >>> > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted >>> > people >>> > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes >>> > blind >>> > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not >>> > saying >>> > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people >>> > who >>> > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are >>> > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind >>> > people >>> > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they >>> > want to >>> > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people >>> > think of >>> > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true >>> > >>> > to >>> > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing >>> > with >>> > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. >>> > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This >>> > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible >>> > >>> > to >>> > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the >>> > sighted >>> > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get >>> > >>> > this >>> > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are >>> > dazing >>> > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it >>> > looks to >>> > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation >>> > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind >>> > people >>> > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just >>> > some >>> > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of >>> > nonverbal >>> > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the >>> > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows >>> > disinterest, >>> > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your >>> > body >>> > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not >>> > see >>> > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as >>> > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this >>> > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids >>> > with >>> > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. >>> > >>> > I >>> > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance >>> > camp >>> > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the >>> > way >>> > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing >>> > loudly at >>> > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was >>> > mentally. >>> > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt >>> > bad for >>> > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. >>> > The >>> > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if >>> > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. >>> > Many >>> > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif >>> > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to >>> > say. >>> > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look >>> > either >>> > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal >>> > icebirg, >>> > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are >>> > viewed. >>> > Also you are right about understanding the body language of >>> > others, and >>> > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being >>> > said >>> > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different >>> > energy >>> > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a >>> > person >>> > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all >>> > comunication is nonverbal. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Tara Annis >>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM >>> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >>> > >>> > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings >>> > across >>> > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what >>> > is >>> > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest >>> > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many >>> > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit >>> > cruelty in >>> > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but >>> > some, do >>> > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth >>> > and a >>> > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal >>> > communication. >>> > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow >>> > a >>> > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind >>> > person, >>> > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think >>> > one of >>> > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not >>> > attempting >>> > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like >>> > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication >>> > to >>> > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person >>> > continues to >>> > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is >>> > why >>> > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their >>> > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class >>> > where >>> > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it >>> > seems >>> > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are >>> > talking >>> > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the >>> > various >>> > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly >>> > irritated, >>> > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes >>> > it is >>> > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as >>> > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. >>> > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is >>> > displayed >>> > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college >>> > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me >>> > from >>> > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more >>> > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my >>> > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that >>> > >>> > I >>> > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish >>> > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their >>> > half >>> > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be >>> > willing to >>> > do their half. >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From kramc11 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 00:45:37 2011 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:45:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com><08AA37D7-FD5A-4194-AEC7-97003160B59D@gmail.com> <3F843755FB7E49D58219AC39B47E5FD0@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <6E581FE93F5B4439A4EAD7444372FEAC@cadiganpc> Responding to the other Marc's post, Although differences should be supported I believe that they should not be supported at the expense of equality. If these actions or lack of actions that are expected of the sighted will enable me to succeed socially or in the workplace, I personally am going to attempt to emulate them when advantageous for me to do so. The world is heavily perception based, and sometimes it is advantageous to do something simply for the benefit of public perception. Mark PS, I am M A R K the other Mark is M A R C. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 00:56:01 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:56:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com><7.0.1.0.2.20111118052906.01d29868@earthlink.net><039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70@gmail.com><964CB410DD7543DDA927272FD4EA1486@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Arielle, "Right on. I balance my own behavior and movements or lack of them with where I am. If I'm at home or among close family or friends who already know me and accept me for who I am, I will relax more and might let my other side out. But in public or situations where I'm being noticed such as in class, giving a presentation, a job interview, out to eat, etcI want to conform more. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 7:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Hi Mark, First of all, your view makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. I like it, and find it refreshing. It is radical, and most members of the blind community will probably not agree with it, but it is worth some consideration. I can definitely relate to the frustration of being expected to conform to a set of nonverbal customs shared by the sighted. I agree that expecting us to put forth extra effort to adopt the customs of the sighted is an unfair burden. However, it is worth noting that just in terms of sheer numbers, the blind is much smaller than other minority groups, such as racial groups. I have been told that only .1% or so of the U.S. population is legally blind. Because of our small numbers, it is difficult if not impossible for the blind to avoid judgment or evaluation by the sighted, or even for us to set up a viable shared culture. The sighted still control access to resources, such as jobs, educational opportunities etc. Part of this is due to unjust power hierarchies, but much of it is due to sheer numbers, which is not something we can change. So, as a matter of pragmatics of survival, conformity is often the best way. In other words, if we are applying for jobs, the vast majority of employers out there will be sighted and will have certain expectations about how their employees dress and look, so it is in our best interest to try to meet these expectations. I also agree with you that "isms" such as rocking are not inherently wrong or harmful. Again, this is an unpopular view among our community, but I think it has merit. The only reason that these "isms" cause us grief is because they stand out and differ from the means of nonverbal expression shared by the sighted majority. Just to share a brief anecdote: When my (sighted) boyfriend and I first started dating, the first time we had a chat while I had my arm around him, he was gesturing with his hands while talking and I thought it was weird. It took me a little getting used to because that's not how I communicate, and I had never been intimate with a sighted person before and paid that much attention to their hand movements. Of course I got over this, but this was my initial reaction. Similarly, many of us get weirded out by rocking and the like, in part because these behaviors aren't shared by the sighted public, and also because they tend to remind people of cognitive disorders such as autism. People who have difficulty imitating the body movements of others because of brain disorders, like autism, also display behaviors like rocking etc. So when people see us with "isms" they associate us with mental disability (and many blind people do too, because they have learned these associations as well). Unfortunately, blindisms have a meaning beyond kinky hair or other features distinctive of certain racial groups. I don't think it's right, but that is what it is. I don't think there's an easy solution to this problem, but in general, I think we need to evaluate how we act in different situations and match our behaviors to those situations. In situations where we are being evaluated by the sighted (job interviews, dates, etc.) I think conformity is important to maximize our chances of attaining opportunities. In other situations, such as when we are alone or with people we trust (close friends, etc.) I'd say do what you want, so long as your behavior is not harming or inconveniencing others. It's not right for us to be constantly monitoring ourselves and aiming to conform to sighted norms all the time. But nor is it good for us to miss out on opportunities because we failed to give our self-presentations enough attention. Best, Arielle On 11/18/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Your comparing apples and oranges. Blind people can act more graceful, > have > expression, wear nice clothes, be competent with the alternative skills, > and > more showing that we can fit in. A minority like being say black cannot be > changed. > We cannot change blindness but we can and should stop rocking, eye poking > and other things. There is someone in our nfb chapter who looks gross; I > see > him do this as I have tunnel vision. He moves his head up/down, side/side > like an amimal, rocks his head, opens his moutth, making weird > contortions, > picks his nose, and just doesn't look good. Now other men are well > dressed, > have a still head, look at the speaker, and act more socially appropriate. > Frankly, I'm embarrassed to be around someone like this in public; whether > sighted or blind, but particularly blind person since its creates a > steretypical image! > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marc Workman > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > Carly wrote, > How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they > are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort > of > put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? > > I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind > people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting > there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it > makes me uncomfortable. > > The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I > think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act > like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do > for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed > the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of > appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how > common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from > his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful > process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian > descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. > These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the > dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also > often happens. > > I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may > be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling > pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more > like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So > what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to > adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of > some > sighted people? > > You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. > There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable > to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It > may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more > successful > and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act > white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it > just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups > characteristics > in order to be successful. > > What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and > act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of > differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so > called > blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than > I > do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance > possessed by other minority groups. > > Cheers, > > Marc > On 2011-11-18, at 6:40 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> >> >> Good morning, Arielle, >> >> I know I tend to use such gestures as a quick shrug of the shoulders to >> express nonchalantness since such a nonverbal expression seems to come >> naturally to me so I hope is somewhat believable. How can facial >> expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not >> naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put >> on >> >> nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? What's the >> point? I Tara and all, >>> You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it >>> behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to >>> express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at >>> this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In >>> particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals >>> in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking >>> annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we >>> can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they >>> ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, >>> as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a >>> conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but >>> other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you >>> who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good >>> control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have >>> made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons >>> about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I >>> think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always >>> been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures >>> routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, >>> if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, >>> with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. >>> Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about >>> something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's >>> so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the >>> impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume >>> that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, >>> but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the >>> funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my >>> attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and >>> embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am >>> thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I >>> don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a >>> graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: >>> > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think >>> > it >>> > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers >>> > use, not >>> > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say >>> > what >>> > >>> > we >>> > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big >>> > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an >>> > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and >>> > teens >>> > >>> > who >>> > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted >>> > people >>> > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes >>> > blind >>> > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not >>> > saying >>> > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people >>> > who >>> > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are >>> > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind >>> > people >>> > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they >>> > want to >>> > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people >>> > think of >>> > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be >>> > true >>> > >>> > to >>> > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing >>> > with >>> > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. >>> > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. >>> > This >>> > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases >>> > impossible >>> > >>> > to >>> > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the >>> > sighted >>> > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people >>> > get >>> > >>> > this >>> > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are >>> > dazing >>> > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it >>> > looks to >>> > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation >>> > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind >>> > people >>> > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just >>> > some >>> > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of >>> > nonverbal >>> > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at >>> > the >>> > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows >>> > disinterest, >>> > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your >>> > body >>> > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not >>> > see >>> > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as >>> > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as >>> > this >>> > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids >>> > with >>> > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive >>> > impairments. >>> > >>> > I >>> > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance >>> > camp >>> > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the >>> > way >>> > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing >>> > loudly at >>> > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was >>> > mentally. >>> > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt >>> > bad for >>> > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. >>> > The >>> > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if >>> > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. >>> > Many >>> > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif >>> > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to >>> > say. >>> > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look >>> > either >>> > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal >>> > icebirg, >>> > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are >>> > viewed. >>> > Also you are right about understanding the body language of >>> > others, and >>> > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being >>> > said >>> > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different >>> > energy >>> > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a >>> > person >>> > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all >>> > comunication is nonverbal. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Tara Annis >>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM >>> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >>> > >>> > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings >>> > across >>> > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what >>> > is >>> > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the >>> > meanest >>> > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. >>> > Many >>> > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit >>> > cruelty in >>> > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but >>> > some, do >>> > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth >>> > and a >>> > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal >>> > communication. >>> > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow >>> > a >>> > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind >>> > person, >>> > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think >>> > one of >>> > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not >>> > attempting >>> > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like >>> > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication >>> > to >>> > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person >>> > continues to >>> > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is >>> > why >>> > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating >>> > their >>> > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class >>> > where >>> > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it >>> > seems >>> > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are >>> > talking >>> > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the >>> > various >>> > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly >>> > irritated, >>> > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes >>> > it is >>> > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as >>> > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. >>> > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is >>> > displayed >>> > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college >>> > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me >>> > from >>> > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more >>> > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my >>> > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is >>> > that >>> > >>> > I >>> > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish >>> > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their >>> > half >>> > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be >>> > willing to >>> > do their half. >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 03:59:32 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:59:32 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians In-Reply-To: References: <3D81DA5893A24A499C89F9876DAB92D6@OwnerPC><7CCD17A2F6C8411CBCAC05E3B7BBF97D@userPC> Message-ID: My instructor that taught the intro to Sheitasue gave us the chart for our information because we didn't have to remember ware they went as much. It is in ms wird. It is attached. Hope it helps! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andi Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:53 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians Most defanatly. What format is the chart? How easy is it to follow? I have an audio CD that describes the path of the meridians, and some of them are really easy to figure out, but others are confusing at least with the descriptions I have because the CD is designed to be listened to while looking at pictures which I can not see. Did you find the chart helpful? If so, how can I get ahold of one? Thank You so much Andi -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:21 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians Hi Andy, I have a chart that explains ware they go. Would that be helpful? Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andi Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:03 PM To: NFB Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians I am taking some classes in energy work to go along with massage tharapy. I am sertified in reiki, but am having trouble with meridian tharapy and sheotsu. Does anyone know where I can get a tactile picture or moddle of the body with the meridiens and acupressure pointsclearly defined? If there is not a place that already makes such a thing does anyone know how I might go about making it. Some of the meridians are complicated and they cross other meridians so each meridian would have to be tactually different. I think I would need two pictures/moddles, one to show just the meridians and the other to show the meridians with the acupressure points. If it were pictures rather than a moddle I would need a way to see it in 3D I think or a key that explained how the meridians travel along the back and sides of the body. It may have to be several pictures to get all angles of the body and a key to tell how the meridians connect from picture to picture. A moddle would probebly be the best way to go but I am open to all suggestions. I really appreciate any help, thank you so much. Andi _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Meridians.doc Type: application/msword Size: 45056 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 01:00:06 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:00:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com><7.0.1.0.2.20111118052906.01d29868@earthlink.net><039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70@gmail.com><964CB410DD7543DDA927272FD4EA1486@OwnerPC> Message-ID: be more blind people should be self employed -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 7:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Hi Mark, First of all, your view makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. I like it, and find it refreshing. It is radical, and most members of the blind community will probably not agree with it, but it is worth some consideration. I can definitely relate to the frustration of being expected to conform to a set of nonverbal customs shared by the sighted. I agree that expecting us to put forth extra effort to adopt the customs of the sighted is an unfair burden. However, it is worth noting that just in terms of sheer numbers, the blind is much smaller than other minority groups, such as racial groups. I have been told that only .1% or so of the U.S. population is legally blind. Because of our small numbers, it is difficult if not impossible for the blind to avoid judgment or evaluation by the sighted, or even for us to set up a viable shared culture. The sighted still control access to resources, such as jobs, educational opportunities etc. Part of this is due to unjust power hierarchies, but much of it is due to sheer numbers, which is not something we can change. So, as a matter of pragmatics of survival, conformity is often the best way. In other words, if we are applying for jobs, the vast majority of employers out there will be sighted and will have certain expectations about how their employees dress and look, so it is in our best interest to try to meet these expectations. I also agree with you that "isms" such as rocking are not inherently wrong or harmful. Again, this is an unpopular view among our community, but I think it has merit. The only reason that these "isms" cause us grief is because they stand out and differ from the means of nonverbal expression shared by the sighted majority. Just to share a brief anecdote: When my (sighted) boyfriend and I first started dating, the first time we had a chat while I had my arm around him, he was gesturing with his hands while talking and I thought it was weird. It took me a little getting used to because that's not how I communicate, and I had never been intimate with a sighted person before and paid that much attention to their hand movements. Of course I got over this, but this was my initial reaction. Similarly, many of us get weirded out by rocking and the like, in part because these behaviors aren't shared by the sighted public, and also because they tend to remind people of cognitive disorders such as autism. People who have difficulty imitating the body movements of others because of brain disorders, like autism, also display behaviors like rocking etc. So when people see us with "isms" they associate us with mental disability (and many blind people do too, because they have learned these associations as well). Unfortunately, blindisms have a meaning beyond kinky hair or other features distinctive of certain racial groups. I don't think it's right, but that is what it is. I don't think there's an easy solution to this problem, but in general, I think we need to evaluate how we act in different situations and match our behaviors to those situations. In situations where we are being evaluated by the sighted (job interviews, dates, etc.) I think conformity is important to maximize our chances of attaining opportunities. In other situations, such as when we are alone or with people we trust (close friends, etc.) I'd say do what you want, so long as your behavior is not harming or inconveniencing others. It's not right for us to be constantly monitoring ourselves and aiming to conform to sighted norms all the time. But nor is it good for us to miss out on opportunities because we failed to give our self-presentations enough attention. Best, Arielle On 11/18/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Your comparing apples and oranges. Blind people can act more graceful, > have > expression, wear nice clothes, be competent with the alternative skills, > and > more showing that we can fit in. A minority like being say black cannot be > changed. > We cannot change blindness but we can and should stop rocking, eye poking > and other things. There is someone in our nfb chapter who looks gross; I > see > him do this as I have tunnel vision. He moves his head up/down, side/side > like an amimal, rocks his head, opens his moutth, making weird > contortions, > picks his nose, and just doesn't look good. Now other men are well > dressed, > have a still head, look at the speaker, and act more socially appropriate. > Frankly, I'm embarrassed to be around someone like this in public; whether > sighted or blind, but particularly blind person since its creates a > steretypical image! > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marc Workman > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > Carly wrote, > How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they > are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort > of > put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? > > I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind > people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting > there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it > makes me uncomfortable. > > The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I > think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act > like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do > for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed > the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of > appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how > common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from > his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful > process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian > descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. > These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the > dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also > often happens. > > I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may > be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling > pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more > like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So > what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to > adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of > some > sighted people? > > You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. > There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable > to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It > may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more > successful > and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act > white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it > just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups > characteristics > in order to be successful. > > What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and > act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of > differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so > called > blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than > I > do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance > possessed by other minority groups. > > Cheers, > > Marc > On 2011-11-18, at 6:40 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> >> >> Good morning, Arielle, >> >> I know I tend to use such gestures as a quick shrug of the shoulders to >> express nonchalantness since such a nonverbal expression seems to come >> naturally to me so I hope is somewhat believable. How can facial >> expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not >> naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put >> on >> >> nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? What's the >> point? I Tara and all, >>> You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it >>> behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to >>> express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at >>> this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In >>> particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals >>> in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking >>> annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we >>> can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they >>> ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, >>> as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a >>> conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but >>> other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you >>> who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good >>> control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have >>> made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons >>> about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I >>> think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always >>> been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures >>> routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, >>> if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, >>> with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. >>> Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about >>> something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's >>> so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the >>> impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume >>> that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, >>> but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the >>> funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my >>> attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and >>> embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am >>> thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I >>> don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a >>> graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: >>> > I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think >>> > it >>> > should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers >>> > use, not >>> > only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say >>> > what >>> > >>> > we >>> > do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big >>> > difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an >>> > understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and >>> > teens >>> > >>> > who >>> > were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted >>> > people >>> > think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes >>> > blind >>> > people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not >>> > saying >>> > that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people >>> > who >>> > look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are >>> > largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind >>> > people >>> > also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they >>> > want to >>> > be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people >>> > think of >>> > you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be >>> > true >>> > >>> > to >>> > yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing >>> > with >>> > stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. >>> > Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. >>> > This >>> > means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases >>> > impossible >>> > >>> > to >>> > make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the >>> > sighted >>> > like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people >>> > get >>> > >>> > this >>> > blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are >>> > dazing >>> > off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it >>> > looks to >>> > sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation >>> > because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind >>> > people >>> > go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just >>> > some >>> > exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of >>> > nonverbal >>> > comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at >>> > the >>> > floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows >>> > disinterest, >>> > bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your >>> > body >>> > language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not >>> > see >>> > the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as >>> > rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as >>> > this >>> > looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids >>> > with >>> > no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive >>> > impairments. >>> > >>> > I >>> > had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance >>> > camp >>> > as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the >>> > way >>> > and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing >>> > loudly at >>> > dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was >>> > mentally. >>> > Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt >>> > bad for >>> > asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. >>> > The >>> > placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if >>> > placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. >>> > Many >>> > blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif >>> > movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to >>> > say. >>> > Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look >>> > either >>> > angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal >>> > icebirg, >>> > and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are >>> > viewed. >>> > Also you are right about understanding the body language of >>> > others, and >>> > even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being >>> > said >>> > silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different >>> > energy >>> > feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a >>> > person >>> > says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all >>> > comunication is nonverbal. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Tara Annis >>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM >>> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >>> > >>> > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings >>> > across >>> > to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what >>> > is >>> > considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the >>> > meanest >>> > things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. >>> > Many >>> > people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit >>> > cruelty in >>> > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but >>> > some, do >>> > lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth >>> > and a >>> > sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal >>> > communication. >>> > I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow >>> > a >>> > blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind >>> > person, >>> > so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think >>> > one of >>> > the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not >>> > attempting >>> > to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like >>> > rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication >>> > to >>> > show when they are irritated by another person. If the person >>> > continues to >>> > be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is >>> > why >>> > sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating >>> > their >>> > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class >>> > where >>> > advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it >>> > seems >>> > there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are >>> > talking >>> > to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the >>> > various >>> > ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly >>> > irritated, >>> > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes >>> > it is >>> > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as >>> > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. >>> > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is >>> > displayed >>> > nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college >>> > campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me >>> > from >>> > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more >>> > comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my >>> > feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is >>> > that >>> > >>> > I >>> > have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish >>> > significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their >>> > half >>> > of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be >>> > willing to >>> > do their half. >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 02:33:26 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:33:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20111118052906.01d29868@earthlink.net> <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70@gmail.com> <964CB410DD7543DDA927272FD4EA1486@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I'll respond to a few points to help clarify my earlier posts. Firstly, I have RP. It's an aggressive form, but I was able, probably often foolishly, to navigate without a cane until my early twenties. Though I'm not particularly expressive, I find it easy to make eye contact, I communicate with my hands, I express feelings with my body, and I don't exhibit so called blindisms. I am regularly told that I don't look blind, which I take not as a complement to me but as an insult to blind people. So on the one hand, I could be accused of being an outsider that hasn't really had to deal with these issues, but on the other hand, my position isn't motivated by my own inability to look and act like a sighted person. Ashley wrote, Maybe if you could see them or someone described those strange behaviors called blindisms, you'd feel different. I have seen them, and I also remember the negative reaction I had to them, but that doesn't change how I feel now. Ashley wrote, Particularly for women, learning to be graceful, confident, show expression and have manners goes a long way. I'm glad you brought up women because I think the sort of things I'm getting at relate to issues concerning standards of beauty. If we lived in the kind of world I'm suggesting, not only would women not be expected to dress, walk, talk, and act in ways that men find appealing or that suit our interests, but there would also be far fewer women suffering from eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia. There would be far fewer women receiving plastic surgery and far fewer women hating their bodies and themselves. Of course this doesn't only apply to women, but I think the pressures around beauty are much more apparent for women, as you suggest, Ashley. Ashley wrote, Your comparing apples and oranges. Blind people can act more graceful, have expression, wear nice clothes, be competent with the alternative skills, and more showing that we can fit in. A minority like being say black cannot be changed. While it's true that one cannot currently very easily go from black to white, the things I mentioned skin bleaching, hair straightening, eyelid surgery, nose jobs, happened in the past and are still happening today, and these are all aimed at changing appearance to make it conform with dominant standards of beauty, which are, and this is not coincidental, white standards of beauty. Secondly, minorities cannot easily change appearance, but I wasn't only talking about appearance. Things like dress, gate, and diction were also mentioned. So what we wear, how we walk, and the words we use are influenced by the dominant culture. There are language classes aimed at reducing southern accents because a southern accent is often wrongly associated with stupidity. So I'm not just talking about appearance. Lastly, what you say seems to me to imply that if African Americans could change their appearance to look white, and if this were happening regularly, there would be nothing wrong with this. I just don't agree with that. Ashley wrote, There is someone in our nfb chapter who looks gross; I see him do this as I have tunnel vision. He moves his head up/down, side/side like an amimal, rocks his head, opens his moutth, making weird contortions, picks his nose, and just doesn't look good. I'm not suggesting that anything goes. There are issues of hygiene that have to do with health and should be respected. Picking one's nose and failing to bathe or wash one's clothes can lead to the increased likelihood of spreading germs and disease, and so such behaviours ought to be discouraged. I suspect there are also risks with poking one's eyes, and so it makes sense to discourage this as well. My issue is with pressuring people to abandon behaviours and the like that are irrelevant. Rocking, shaking one's head, not making eye contact, not talking with one's hands, these things do not inherently limit or obstruct communication. They are only even noticed because they are not the sort of things most people do. There are cultures, though, where eye contact is a sign of aggression and considered inappropriate. I'm sure members of these cultures still manage to communicate effectively. So there are some behaviours that should be discouraged whether a person is blind or sighted, but the majority are irrelevant, and it is pressuring blind people to abandon these ones that I think is problematic. Arielle andMark with a K, No direct quote, but I take the main thrust to be that we really have no choice but to try to look and act like sighted people look and act. Not conforming is very likely to lead to fewer opportunities and probably more isolation, at least in the world that we live in. I feel the force of this point, and I don't disagree. As I said at the outset, I look and act like sighted people myself. I suppose my point is an ethical one. It may be that, as a matter of necessity, we have to pressure blind people to suppress certain naturally occurring behaviours and to adopt behaviours that some will find awkward, but the thing's being necessary doesn't make it right. I believe it is wrong that we have to do this. I think a society where this wasn't necessary would be a better one. And I think it's useful to call it out as wrong even if we feel we have no choice but to go along with it. Regards, Marc On 2011-11-18, at 5:33 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Mark, > First of all, your view makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. I like > it, and find it refreshing. It is radical, and most members of the > blind community will probably not agree with it, but it is worth some > consideration. I can definitely relate to the frustration of being > expected to conform to a set of nonverbal customs shared by the > sighted. I agree that expecting us to put forth extra effort to adopt > the customs of the sighted is an unfair burden. > However, it is worth noting that just in terms of sheer numbers, the > blind is much smaller than other minority groups, such as racial > groups. I have been told that only .1% or so of the U.S. population is > legally blind. Because of our small numbers, it is difficult if not > impossible for the blind to avoid judgment or evaluation by the > sighted, or even for us to set up a viable shared culture. The sighted > still control access to resources, such as jobs, educational > opportunities etc. Part of this is due to unjust power hierarchies, > but much of it is due to sheer numbers, which is not something we can > change. So, as a matter of pragmatics of survival, conformity is often > the best way. In other words, if we are applying for jobs, the vast > majority of employers out there will be sighted and will have certain > expectations about how their employees dress and look, so it is in our > best interest to try to meet these expectations. > I also agree with you that "isms" such as rocking are not inherently > wrong or harmful. Again, this is an unpopular view among our > community, but I think it has merit. The only reason that these "isms" > cause us grief is because they stand out and differ from the means of > nonverbal expression shared by the sighted majority. Just to share a > brief anecdote: When my (sighted) boyfriend and I first started > dating, the first time we had a chat while I had my arm around him, he > was gesturing with his hands while talking and I thought it was weird. > It took me a little getting used to because that's not how I > communicate, and I had never been intimate with a sighted person > before and paid that much attention to their hand movements. Of course > I got over this, but this was my initial reaction. Similarly, many of > us get weirded out by rocking and the like, in part because these > behaviors aren't shared by the sighted public, and also because they > tend to remind people of cognitive disorders such as autism. People > who have difficulty imitating the body movements of others because of > brain disorders, like autism, also display behaviors like rocking etc. > So when people see us with "isms" they associate us with mental > disability (and many blind people do too, because they have learned > these associations as well). Unfortunately, blindisms have a meaning > beyond kinky hair or other features distinctive of certain racial > groups. I don't think it's right, but that is what it is. > I don't think there's an easy solution to this problem, but in > general, I think we need to evaluate how we act in different > situations and match our behaviors to those situations. In situations > where we are being evaluated by the sighted (job interviews, dates, > etc.) I think conformity is important to maximize our chances of > attaining opportunities. In other situations, such as when we are > alone or with people we trust (close friends, etc.) I'd say do what > you want, so long as your behavior is not harming or inconveniencing > others. It's not right for us to be constantly monitoring ourselves > and aiming to conform to sighted norms all the time. But nor is it > good for us to miss out on opportunities because we failed to give our > self-presentations enough attention. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/18/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Your comparing apples and oranges. Blind people can act more graceful, have >> expression, wear nice clothes, be competent with the alternative skills, and >> more showing that we can fit in. A minority like being say black cannot be >> changed. >> We cannot change blindness but we can and should stop rocking, eye poking >> and other things. There is someone in our nfb chapter who looks gross; I see >> him do this as I have tunnel vision. He moves his head up/down, side/side >> like an amimal, rocks his head, opens his moutth, making weird contortions, >> picks his nose, and just doesn't look good. Now other men are well dressed, >> have a still head, look at the speaker, and act more socially appropriate. >> Frankly, I'm embarrassed to be around someone like this in public; whether >> sighted or blind, but particularly blind person since its creates a >> steretypical image! >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Marc Workman >> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >> >> Carly wrote, >> How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they >> are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of >> put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? >> >> I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind >> people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting >> there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it >> makes me uncomfortable. >> >> The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I >> think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act >> like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do >> for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed >> the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of >> appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how >> common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from >> his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful >> process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian >> descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. >> These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the >> dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also >> often happens. >> >> I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may >> be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling >> pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more >> like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So >> what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to >> adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some >> sighted people? >> >> You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. >> There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable >> to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It >> may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful >> and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act >> white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it >> just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics >> in order to be successful. >> >> What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and >> act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of >> differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called >> blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I >> do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance >> possessed by other minority groups. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Marc >> On 2011-11-18, at 6:40 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Good morning, Arielle, >>> >>> I know I tend to use such gestures as a quick shrug of the shoulders to >>> express nonchalantness since such a nonverbal expression seems to come >>> naturally to me so I hope is somewhat believable. How can facial >>> expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not >>> naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on >>> >>> nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? What's the >>> point? I Tara and all, >>>> You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it >>>> behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to >>>> express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at >>>> this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In >>>> particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals >>>> in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking >>>> annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we >>>> can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they >>>> ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, >>>> as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a >>>> conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but >>>> other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you >>>> who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good >>>> control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have >>>> made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons >>>> about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I >>>> think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always >>>> been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures >>>> routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, >>>> if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, >>>> with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. >>>> Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about >>>> something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's >>>> so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the >>>> impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume >>>> that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, >>>> but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the >>>> funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my >>>> attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and >>>> embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am >>>> thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I >>>> don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a >>>> graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: >>>>> I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it >>>>> should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers >>>>> use, not >>>>> only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what >>>>> >>>>> we >>>>> do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big >>>>> difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an >>>>> understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens >>>>> >>>>> who >>>>> were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted >>>>> people >>>>> think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes >>>>> blind >>>>> people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not >>>>> saying >>>>> that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people >>>>> who >>>>> look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are >>>>> largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind >>>>> people >>>>> also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they >>>>> want to >>>>> be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people >>>>> think of >>>>> you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing >>>>> with >>>>> stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. >>>>> Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This >>>>> means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the >>>>> sighted >>>>> like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get >>>>> >>>>> this >>>>> blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are >>>>> dazing >>>>> off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it >>>>> looks to >>>>> sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation >>>>> because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind >>>>> people >>>>> go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just >>>>> some >>>>> exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of >>>>> nonverbal >>>>> comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the >>>>> floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows >>>>> disinterest, >>>>> bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your >>>>> body >>>>> language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not >>>>> see >>>>> the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as >>>>> rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this >>>>> looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids >>>>> with >>>>> no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance >>>>> camp >>>>> as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the >>>>> way >>>>> and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing >>>>> loudly at >>>>> dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was >>>>> mentally. >>>>> Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt >>>>> bad for >>>>> asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. >>>>> The >>>>> placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if >>>>> placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. >>>>> Many >>>>> blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif >>>>> movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to >>>>> say. >>>>> Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look >>>>> either >>>>> angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal >>>>> icebirg, >>>>> and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are >>>>> viewed. >>>>> Also you are right about understanding the body language of >>>>> others, and >>>>> even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being >>>>> said >>>>> silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different >>>>> energy >>>>> feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a >>>>> person >>>>> says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all >>>>> comunication is nonverbal. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Tara Annis >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >>>>> >>>>> I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings >>>>> across >>>>> to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what >>>>> is >>>>> considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest >>>>> things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many >>>>> people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit >>>>> cruelty in >>>>> their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but >>>>> some, do >>>>> lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth >>>>> and a >>>>> sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal >>>>> communication. >>>>> I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow >>>>> a >>>>> blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind >>>>> person, >>>>> so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think >>>>> one of >>>>> the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not >>>>> attempting >>>>> to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like >>>>> rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication >>>>> to >>>>> show when they are irritated by another person. If the person >>>>> continues to >>>>> be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is >>>>> why >>>>> sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their >>>>> anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class >>>>> where >>>>> advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it >>>>> seems >>>>> there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are >>>>> talking >>>>> to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the >>>>> various >>>>> ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly >>>>> irritated, >>>>> somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes >>>>> it is >>>>> necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as >>>>> opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. >>>>> Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is >>>>> displayed >>>>> nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college >>>>> campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me >>>>> from >>>>> my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more >>>>> comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my >>>>> feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish >>>>> significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their >>>>> half >>>>> of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be >>>>> willing to >>>>> do their half. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From amylsabo at comcast.net Sat Nov 19 03:12:08 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:12:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio In-Reply-To: <4ec5ce39.e426340a.3469.12fa@mx.google.com> References: <4ec5ce39.e426340a.3469.12fa@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <015f01cca669$06846aa0$138d3fe0$@comcast.net> Hello chris, I don't know if cool edit is free to download or not. When I got my copy of it which I got from my prof when I took the class in the winter of 2001 in which the class was called multimedia digitizing at my community college in Michigan he told me that wasn't free but, I don't know on it. If you google the name of the product called cool edit I'm sure it will be free unless you purchase the professional version of it. As to elizabeth's question I don't know how to put audio into text version since you never do that in audio. But, if that is what she is trying to do then someone else needs to assist her on this! Thanks for your input on this information and, I will talk to you soon. Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Hi Amy, Is Cool Edit free? If so, I'd be interested in downloading it! By the way, I think Elizabeth was trying to transcribe an audio recording into text (like a transcript,) not edit the audio recording and keep it audio. That's at least how I took her email. But only she knows for sure what she intended to do with that "confidential" recording. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" References: <4ec5ce39.e426340a.3469.12fa@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <016001cca669$628741b0$2795c510$@comcast.net> Hello there, Thanks for sharing this information. Is this software accessible with jfw or not? And, where can someone get this software on the net and, is it free or do you have to purchase it for a reasonable fee? This sounds cool and, I would love to check this out... thanks for the information and, I will talk to you all soon! Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren Wakefield Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 8:25 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio my wife is starting to work with a program called "express-scribe". It works with a foot pedle which allows you to start stop forward and rewind thew file. One can also adjust the speed of the file. She says it is mostly speech friendly. If you would like to talk more with her about this write her offlist at: proverbs1423 at mchsi.com Loren Wakefield -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Hi Amy, Is Cool Edit free? If so, I'd be interested in downloading it! By the way, I think Elizabeth was trying to transcribe an audio recording into text (like a transcript,) not edit the audio recording and keep it audio. That's at least how I took her email. But only she knows for sure what she intended to do with that "confidential" recording. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" References: <4ec5ce39.e426340a.3469.12fa@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <016601cca66a$efe7ecc0$cfb7c640$@comcast.net> Hello steve, I didn't know that cool edit was purchases by adobe at all. I haven't used cool edit since 2001 and, I didn't know of the other updates to that software at all or the expense of it or that it isn't accessible with screen reasders at all. Like I said in my previous message to chris it has been a long time since I have used the software that my prf gave to us and, it's on a ultiy disk which I haven't used in a long time. But, as for doing audio editing for people or for my personal use I plan to use gold wave since many of my blind friends in this field use it themselves. Thanks for the information and, I will talk to you soon! Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:03 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio CoolEdit was purchased a long time ago by Adobe and became Adobe Audition. Audition 1 and 1.5 looked pretty much the same but version 2 changed in such a way as to not be very accessible with screen readers. Version 3 is better, but it generally requires some extra support by screen readers, and it is fairly expensive. Unless there is something happening with CoolEdit of which I am not aware, and that is certainly possible, any downloads you find would be very old and may not work with current hardware or operating systems, or worse yet, they may be bogus. Gold Wave is probably the best bet, although I agree that the original person was probably looking to transcribe rather than edit Audio. Some of the Audio editors let you "Time Stretch", though, which slows up a recording without lowering the pitch. Some find that it is possible to slow down a recording to a point where one can listen and transcribe without the need to start and stop the recording as much, making transcribing easier. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:16:33 -0500, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >Hi Amy, >Is Cool Edit free? If so, I'd be interested in downloading it! By >the way, I think Elizabeth was trying to transcribe an audio >recording into text (like a transcript,) not edit the audio >recording and keep it audio. That's at least how I took her >email. But only she knows for sure what she intended to do with >that "confidential" recording. >Chris >"The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The >real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that >exists. If a blind person has the proper training and >opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical >nuisance." >-- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, >1968-1986 >P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired >youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through >providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and >conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. >For more information about the Foundation and to support our >work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! >Sent from my BrailleNote Apex > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Amy Sabo" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >Date sent: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:49:19 -0700 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded >Audio >Hello Elizabeth, >First of all what format is this audio recording done in? is it >done in mp3 format or in wave format? After that there is a >program for formatting audio recordings called gold wave or you >can also use a program called cool edit. I have never used gold >wave but, I have used cool edit for editing my audio recordings. >To obtain both of these programs to download and use for both >gold wave I believe... >You can go to www.goldwwave.com to download the software and use >it. This is accessible with jfw. As for cool edit I don't have >the web site for that but, if you google cool edit you can find >it! >Anyway, I hope these and other information that I have given you >is helpful. Take care and good luck in your audio production >work. >Hugs, >amy >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth >Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:58 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio >Hello All, >I have a rather confidential recording that is approximately >three hours in >length that I would like to have transcribed. Does anyone have >any >recommendations about how I might be able to go about getting >this recording >transcribed? This recording is not a class lecture. I would >welcome any >ideas regardless if it involves a human transcriber or >transcribing >technology. If you have any ideas, please contact me off list. >Thanks, >Elizabeth >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40c o >mcast.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusba u >m%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobs on%40visi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 05:00:23 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:00:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes In-Reply-To: <9939142F72334B61898CF22B5FC9B253@OwnerPC> References: <9939142F72334B61898CF22B5FC9B253@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <38605776502240FA91FF17D35157F927@OwnerPC> I believe if it is something you can not control you shouldn't have to hide it and I actually think when blind people where sun glasses inside it just looks more stereotypical and reenforces the old stigmas. I only know one blind person who can pull off sun glasses all the time and he actually has beautiful eyes but he kind of has this rock star look when he wheres them so it doesn't look funny. Some people can get away with it and actually make it look good, but most can not. However on the same token I where makeup to cover serdury scars under my eyes, and strangers are more willing to talk to me when I do as aposed to when I don't. So while society does need to be more excepting of people and we should strive twards that end it is not usually what you can expect from the world. The world is cruel and judgmental. As I said before you have to be true to you, but there is a degree in which you should care. On that same token it is hard to always know what society will and wont expect. Obviously behaviors and things you can help should be things you care about but eyes well that is a personal choice. Is it silly for me to cover up my scars so I am more approachable or am I being overly concerned. I suppose make up is considered normal by society so maybe it isn't so odd to where it for that reason. Eyes however can not be covered up unless you where coloured contacts or sun glasses. I personally think sun glasses are silly unless you are out doors and it is a sunny day or you have a sensativity. Coloured contacts might be an option if you are truly concerned about the appearance of your eyes and that is something sighted people do to if they do not like their eye colour but I would imagine it gets expensive. Usually peoples "weered" eyes are not usually as strange as they think,so it really is a personal choice like makeup. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 6:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes well, light is a factor, one reason to cover eyes. another one is appearance. If it detracts from your looks, you do what you need to do for acceptance. I think doing this on a job interview would help get you a job. -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 5:36 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes While I understand where you're coming from, I disagree about a blind person covering their eyes just to make sighted people feel more at ease. Many of us where sunglasses for various reasons. I where mine on days when light is causing extra sensitivity or when I opt to not wear make-up, smile. I have a friend who wears sunglasses to hide scar tissue and another to hide a glass eye. I think it's time the world learn to accept people as they are. If glass eyes, or eyes with scarring, or cloudiness, cause discomfort among sighted people, does this mean we need start concealing missing limbs, birth, or accident related, deformaties, scarring on burn victims? The list is endless. I understand your comments, and I understand why some choose to cover up any "abnormality" with their eyes, but I think this is unjustly unfair. We, to some degree, have sway over how we act and present ourselves to the public, but for many, they have no control over the function, or lack thereof, color or clarity of their eyes. We shouldn't teach blind kids to conceal something they can't control, but instead we should educate society to accept that disability is a part of life and to be comfortable with people who may have a physical deformity (for lack of a better word at the moment) scar, missing limb, cognitive impairment or any other "abnormal" issue. I think it all goes back to us, the disabled people, having to fit into a mold in order to make others feel more comfortable, or taking submissive roles so society doesn't feel awkward. We shouldn't have to take extra measures in terms of a physical aspect out of our control just so others feel better. We're human and have feelings. What about the world taking extra measures so we feel less uncomfortable around those who aren't disabled or have a physical condition considered abnormal? I agree that people who are blind can learn how to dress and interact in ways that are more socially acceptable, but hiding your eyes because they make others uncomfortable seems like the wrong message. Perhaps this is a bit of a leap, but we once were relegated to dark corners and institutionalized just so society didn't have to literally look at us, causing them discomfort and guilt. Is covering eyes, limbs, scars, fractures, etc. just a new way of relegating us into a different kind of dark corner? Hide as much of us as possible so we don't frighten the nondisabled population? God forbid people with disabilities get to feel human for once. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 3 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:55:01 -0500 From: Tara Annis To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups Message-ID: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9 at KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int. digex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or okay or so-so. A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff movements, but still appear "normal" What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a common problem. I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything on my part cause I'm blind." Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, preppie, average person, etc. I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is subconscious. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 05:20:54 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:20:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05@OwnerPC> Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:44 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions I danced for many years including ballet, including pointe. It's very true that ballet dancers learn to position, and move, their bodies in inorganic ways. The motion, when done well, is very graceful and fluid, but the process to harness the technique can take years and actually can do quite a number on your body. Though other dance forms like jazz or tap are not quite as unforgiving as ballet, they still require a lot of discipline to do, especially to master. However, if wanting to learn how to move more naturally, dance certainly can help. Many professional athletes take dance, including ballet, in order to move better on the field or pitch or rink or whatever the case may be. I also have a background in theatre and minored in it when at university back in 2000. Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes. Another way to learn a more natural body movement is to take modeling classes. Now, these can cost, but so can dance and acting classes- it's something to invesigate before signing up. Modeling classes will teach you specifically how to walk and how to use your face to relay things. Models on the runway often use an unnatural gate, but in modeling class itself, you learn how to carry yourself meaning you learn how to move in a graceful, fluid manner. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:54:04 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 05:30:15 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:30:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians In-Reply-To: References: <3D81DA5893A24A499C89F9876DAB92D6@OwnerPC><7CCD17A2F6C8411CBCAC05E3B7BBF97D@userPC> Message-ID: Thank you very much it does give more detail than the disc I have I appreciate it very much. Andi -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:59 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians My instructor that taught the intro to Sheitasue gave us the chart for our information because we didn't have to remember ware they went as much. It is in ms wird. It is attached. Hope it helps! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andi Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:53 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians Most defanatly. What format is the chart? How easy is it to follow? I have an audio CD that describes the path of the meridians, and some of them are really easy to figure out, but others are confusing at least with the descriptions I have because the CD is designed to be listened to while looking at pictures which I can not see. Did you find the chart helpful? If so, how can I get ahold of one? Thank You so much Andi -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:21 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians Hi Andy, I have a chart that explains ware they go. Would that be helpful? Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andi Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:03 PM To: NFB Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians I am taking some classes in energy work to go along with massage tharapy. I am sertified in reiki, but am having trouble with meridian tharapy and sheotsu. Does anyone know where I can get a tactile picture or moddle of the body with the meridiens and acupressure pointsclearly defined? If there is not a place that already makes such a thing does anyone know how I might go about making it. Some of the meridians are complicated and they cross other meridians so each meridian would have to be tactually different. I think I would need two pictures/moddles, one to show just the meridians and the other to show the meridians with the acupressure points. If it were pictures rather than a moddle I would need a way to see it in 3D I think or a key that explained how the meridians travel along the back and sides of the body. It may have to be several pictures to get all angles of the body and a key to tell how the meridians connect from picture to picture. A moddle would probebly be the best way to go but I am open to all suggestions. I really appreciate any help, thank you so much. Andi _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 19 05:47:29 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (SA Mobile) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 23:47:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups In-Reply-To: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> Message-ID: I feel horrified by your rather long list of recommendations. There is social sense, and there is madness. Saying that we should each be evaluated by a sighted person feels too invasive to me, and people don't need to wear dark glasses unless they wish to. I want to communicate with the sighted, not spend my time trying to replicate them in myself. I could see myself going crazy trying not to look like the long list of stereotypes listed below. Respectfully Submitted Sent from my iPhone On 18/11/2011, at 12:55 PM, Tara Annis wrote: > Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or okay or so-so. > > A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff movements, but still appear "normal" > What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a common problem. > > I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything on my part cause I'm blind." > > Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, preppie, average person, etc. > > I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is subconscious. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 19 05:52:51 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (SA Mobile) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 23:52:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups In-Reply-To: <08AA37D7-FD5A-4194-AEC7-97003160B59D@gmail.com> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> <08AA37D7-FD5A-4194-AEC7-97003160B59D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you Marc. My heart finds peace, power, and wisdom in your comments. Respectfully Submitted Sent from my iPhone On 18/11/2011, at 3:22 PM, Marc Workman wrote: > Hi Tara, > > I really feel like your message demonstrates just how deeply you've internalized the notion that sight is right and blindness is ugliness. I think it's a terrible message to spread. > > Examples: > > Tara wrote, >> A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. > > Since when does normal equal good, or better, or right? Normal is a statistical concept that we have unfortunately and mistakenly injected with the idea that normal is better than not normal. By strange movements, I assume you mean movements that the average sighted person does not make. Why exactly is it so important that blind people try to look and act like some sighted people? Is it also the case that non-whites should look and act like whites? > > Tara wrote, >> Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will help the general public be at ease when communicating. > > This one I find even more disturbing. I'm sure we'd all be more at ease if we all looked and acted the same, but that does not mean it something worth striving for. I would much rather live in a world where someone's looking different didn't make others so uneasy than in a world where we encourage people to hide their differences in order to make others more comfortable. > > I could go on, but I think my point has been made. I hope that blind people do not believe that failing to look and act like the average sighted person means we are ugly, strange, weird, wrong and otherwise inferior. I completely reject that notion. > > Regards, > > Marc > On 2011-11-18, at 11:55 AM, Tara Annis wrote: > >> Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own level of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal communication is done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the hands at a relaxed position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I recently learned there is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in how was your work day and the person would use this gesture as they verbally say it was all right or okay or so-so. >> >> A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is absolutely necessary to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial expression for the situation being experienced (smiling at a funeral), etc. A blind person can have stiff movements, but still appear "normal" >> What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind person on an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are any totally weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken Jennings the blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so this seems to be a common problem. >> >> I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move to the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a cart walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do not stop when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to cut people off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know it is almost impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who do not even try and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind people that will shove people out of their way at the mall, or push a door open when there are people standing on the other side of it. They told me, "it is sighted people's responsibility to watch out for me and I don't have to do anything on my part cause I'm blind." >> >> Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it will help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some blind wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give their children "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son and a really short bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot learn to take care of long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd also like to see more blind kids dress for their peer group, such as emo or goth, hippie, skater, preppie, average person, etc. >> >> I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need the truth. While I think people should not be judged for their appearance, many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes it is subconscious. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 19 06:03:29 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (SA Mobile) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:03:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70@gmail.com> References: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A87851C0@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20111118052906.01d29868@earthlink.net> <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70@gmail.com> Message-ID: <59D3B0F7-4477-4E92-B5B5-5D952EDADD67@samobile.net> A lot of mannerisms go away naturally when blind kids are allowed to move naturally like anyone else. Respectfully Submitted Sent from my iPhone On 18/11/2011, at 2:26 PM, Marc Workman wrote: > Carly wrote, > How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? > > I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. > > The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. > > I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some sighted people? > > You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. > > What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by other minority groups. > > Cheers, > > Marc > On 2011-11-18, at 6:40 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> >> >> Good morning, Arielle, >> >> I know I tend to use such gestures as a quick shrug of the shoulders to express nonchalantness since such a nonverbal expression seems to come naturally to me so I hope is somewhat believable. How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? What's the point? I Tara and all, >>> You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it >>> behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to >>> express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at >>> this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In >>> particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals >>> in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking >>> annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we >>> can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they >>> ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort, >>> as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a >>> conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but >>> other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you >>> who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good >>> control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have >>> made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons >>> about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I >>> think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always >>> been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures >>> routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again, >>> if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class, >>> with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work. >>> Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about >>> something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's >>> so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the >>> impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume >>> that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too, >>> but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the >>> funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my >>> attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and >>> embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am >>> thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I >>> don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a >>> graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it? >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 11/15/11, Andi wrote: >>>> I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it >>>> should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers use, not >>>> only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what we >>>> do not want to say. I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big >>>> difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an >>>> understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens who >>>> were not taught nonverbal comunication. Part of the reason sighted people >>>> think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes blind >>>> people do not allways look compatent even though they are. I am not saying >>>> that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people who >>>> look compatent are never faulsly judged. I know that the sighted are >>>> largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind people >>>> also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they want to >>>> be seen. I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people think of >>>> you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true to >>>> yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing with >>>> stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent. >>>> Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face. This >>>> means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible to >>>> make. When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the sighted >>>> like there is nothing going on upstairs. Even other sighted people get this >>>> blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are dazing >>>> off or falling asleep. When a person has that look all the time it looks to >>>> sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation >>>> because you can not talk to someone who is off in space. Some Blind people >>>> go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just some >>>> exercises at home can fix it. Also eye contact is a big part of nonverbal >>>> comunication. Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the >>>> floor, or look up in the sky. That to a sighted person shows disinterest, >>>> bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your body >>>> language accompanying the lack of eye contact. Even though we can not see >>>> the person we are talking to we should make eye contact. Isms such as >>>> rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this >>>> looks like a cognitive impairment. At the camp their were blind kids with >>>> no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments. I >>>> had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance camp >>>> as she is a very skilld dancer. One teenager who is very smart by the way >>>> and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing loudly at >>>> dinner. My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was mentally. >>>> Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt bad for >>>> asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms. The >>>> placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if >>>> placed oddly. Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint. Many >>>> blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif >>>> movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to say. >>>> Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look either >>>> angry, nervous, or mocking. This is just the tip of the nonverbal icebirg, >>>> and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are viewed. >>>> Also you are right about understanding the body language of others, and >>>> even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being said >>>> silently. Some actions make noise, while others have a different energy >>>> feel. I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a person >>>> says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all >>>> comunication is nonverbal. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Tara Annis >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >>>> >>>> I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings across >>>> to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is >>>> considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest >>>> things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many >>>> people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty in >>>> their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, do >>>> lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and a >>>> sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. >>>> I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a >>>> blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, >>>> so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one of >>>> the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting >>>> to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like >>>> rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to >>>> show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues to >>>> be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why >>>> sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their >>>> anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class where >>>> advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems >>>> there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking >>>> to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various >>>> ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, >>>> somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it is >>>> necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as >>>> opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. >>>> Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is displayed >>>> nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college >>>> campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from >>>> my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more >>>> comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my >>>> feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I >>>> have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish >>>> significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their half >>>> of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing to >>>> do their half. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 15:43:39 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 07:43:39 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians In-Reply-To: References: <3D81DA5893A24A499C89F9876DAB92D6@OwnerPC><7CCD17A2F6C8411CBCAC05E3B7BBF97D@userPC> Message-ID: <0DADD1CF2E714CCC9FBCA7F02B4C2A88@userPC> Your welcome! Glad I could help! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andi Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 9:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians Thank you very much it does give more detail than the disc I have I appreciate it very much. Andi -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:59 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians My instructor that taught the intro to Sheitasue gave us the chart for our information because we didn't have to remember ware they went as much. It is in ms wird. It is attached. Hope it helps! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andi Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:53 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians Most defanatly. What format is the chart? How easy is it to follow? I have an audio CD that describes the path of the meridians, and some of them are really easy to figure out, but others are confusing at least with the descriptions I have because the CD is designed to be listened to while looking at pictures which I can not see. Did you find the chart helpful? If so, how can I get ahold of one? Thank You so much Andi -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:21 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians Hi Andy, I have a chart that explains ware they go. Would that be helpful? Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andi Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:03 PM To: NFB Subject: [nabs-l] energy work and meridians I am taking some classes in energy work to go along with massage tharapy. I am sertified in reiki, but am having trouble with meridian tharapy and sheotsu. Does anyone know where I can get a tactile picture or moddle of the body with the meridiens and acupressure pointsclearly defined? If there is not a place that already makes such a thing does anyone know how I might go about making it. Some of the meridians are complicated and they cross other meridians so each meridian would have to be tactually different. I think I would need two pictures/moddles, one to show just the meridians and the other to show the meridians with the acupressure points. If it were pictures rather than a moddle I would need a way to see it in 3D I think or a key that explained how the meridians travel along the back and sides of the body. It may have to be several pictures to get all angles of the body and a key to tell how the meridians connect from picture to picture. A moddle would probebly be the best way to go but I am open to all suggestions. I really appreciate any help, thank you so much. Andi _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 14:27:54 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 09:27:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] significance of signatures In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111118110716.01d57d90@earthlink.net> References: <4ec5d017.d421340a.6ff0.1014@mx.google.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20111118110716.01d57d90@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hey I had eyesite till I was eight and know what the letters look like but, I learned cursive after I went blind. I had seen it before going blind but did not learn it until after. I know all the lower case and some of the upper case. I am able to wright my name first and last in cursive. I use to wright my first in cursive and my last in print before I learned to wright the W. a person told me I had to choose one or the other that I can't mix the font. I guess if you wanted to and if this was your signitor you can do what ever you wished, IDK. But I just let the people show me where to sign either with my finger or the pen and I go from there. I am good with keeping it strait and on the line in most cases as long as the person directs me in the right spot... I use to wright small and neat, really pritty like, but I have been making it more sloppy and larger. I am working on fixing that myself. Now for my advice. You can by lines paper or a slate with string on it to practice your writing, just wright it over andover and over. Have someone go over it and tell you what your doing wrong. You can also get this plastic paper stuff and wright on a rubber mat to make the wrighting emboss as you wright. This might help so you can see what your doing. Have someone wright it on the top for you to feel and compare. Not sure what kind of plastic though sorry. On 11/18/11, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Hi, Patrick, > > I also have no eyesight whatsoever. I was given the same line by my > folks, after not ever feeling comfortable with my signature. Yes, > guides are helpful though most often one must resort to just > eyeballing it, so to speak. > for today, > Car Then my parents told me about what we call the >>doctor's signature. This just means that you sign your first initial, >>draw a kind of wavy line, then sign the first letter of your last name >>and do another wavy line. In terms of guides/cards, it's always handy >>to have a signature guide nearby. Your signature doesn't have to be >>perfect, it just has to be something that you can repeat over and over >>again the same way. >>Patrick >> >>On 11/17/11, vejas wrote: >> > Hi, >> > I am a freshman in high school and learning to improve my >> > signature. I wanted some advice from you guys; how do you sign >> > your names? How did you learn them? Did you just remember the >> > shape of each letter? Do you use a writing guide or card? >> > Thanks a lot. I'd really appreciate it because my signature is >> > very important and will become very handy in the future. >> > Thank you. >> > Vejas >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 16:39:24 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:39:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movementandexpressions In-Reply-To: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05@OwnerPC> References: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <2B129BF69EBF4B4993B18C63D716622B@OwnerPC> So you're a girl, Andi? -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movementandexpressions Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:44 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions I danced for many years including ballet, including pointe. It's very true that ballet dancers learn to position, and move, their bodies in inorganic ways. The motion, when done well, is very graceful and fluid, but the process to harness the technique can take years and actually can do quite a number on your body. Though other dance forms like jazz or tap are not quite as unforgiving as ballet, they still require a lot of discipline to do, especially to master. However, if wanting to learn how to move more naturally, dance certainly can help. Many professional athletes take dance, including ballet, in order to move better on the field or pitch or rink or whatever the case may be. I also have a background in theatre and minored in it when at university back in 2000. Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes. Another way to learn a more natural body movement is to take modeling classes. Now, these can cost, but so can dance and acting classes- it's something to invesigate before signing up. Modeling classes will teach you specifically how to walk and how to use your face to relay things. Models on the runway often use an unnatural gate, but in modeling class itself, you learn how to carry yourself meaning you learn how to move in a graceful, fluid manner. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:54:04 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 17:09:02 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 12:09:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn naturalmovementandexpressions In-Reply-To: <2B129BF69EBF4B4993B18C63D716622B@OwnerPC> References: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05@OwnerPC> <2B129BF69EBF4B4993B18C63D716622B@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4A02D34091A5415C990D9848F6884391@OwnerPC> Yes I am a girl my name is Adrianne, and Andi is my nick name, it comes from my initials. However just because I did dance, that is not a reason to assume I am a girl. Their were many guys on both my dance teams and you can not do treditional or Lattin ball room or swing with out a partner. Most of the time it is a boy girl thing. Not always but tipically. When I took hip hop the guys outnumbered the girls. Actually men who dance usually get extra sex appeal points in most womens eyes. I recommend dance for everyone male or female. Like I said before it is great for gaining a more natural appearance and it is also a great way to stay in shape. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn naturalmovementandexpressions So you're a girl, Andi? -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movementandexpressions Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:44 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions I danced for many years including ballet, including pointe. It's very true that ballet dancers learn to position, and move, their bodies in inorganic ways. The motion, when done well, is very graceful and fluid, but the process to harness the technique can take years and actually can do quite a number on your body. Though other dance forms like jazz or tap are not quite as unforgiving as ballet, they still require a lot of discipline to do, especially to master. However, if wanting to learn how to move more naturally, dance certainly can help. Many professional athletes take dance, including ballet, in order to move better on the field or pitch or rink or whatever the case may be. I also have a background in theatre and minored in it when at university back in 2000. Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes. Another way to learn a more natural body movement is to take modeling classes. Now, these can cost, but so can dance and acting classes- it's something to invesigate before signing up. Modeling classes will teach you specifically how to walk and how to use your face to relay things. Models on the runway often use an unnatural gate, but in modeling class itself, you learn how to carry yourself meaning you learn how to move in a graceful, fluid manner. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:54:04 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 18:18:36 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:18:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes In-Reply-To: <38605776502240FA91FF17D35157F927@OwnerPC> References: <9939142F72334B61898CF22B5FC9B253@OwnerPC> <38605776502240FA91FF17D35157F927@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I don't wear sunglasses to cover my eyes. I have a prosthetic eye in my left side and the right eye is heavily scarred and has a cataract, which a friend described as looking like cobwebs. Much of the time, however, my eyelids are almost completely closed, so the eyes don't show, not by choice but because of problems with my eyelids. most people say they didn't e ven notice I was blind at first, though more people say they knew I was blind when I wore sunglasses. Not that I want to hide that I'm blind, but as another said, wearing sunglasses is a steroetype of b lindness, one that I don't want to fit into. Wearing sunglasses is something I only do on bright days or in a bright room, and I think others should just do what feels best for them. ~Jewel On 11/19/11, Andi wrote: > I believe if it is something you can not control you shouldn't have to hide > it and I actually think when blind people where sun glasses inside it just > looks more stereotypical and reenforces the old stigmas. I only know one > blind person who can pull off sun glasses all the time and he actually has > beautiful eyes but he kind of has this rock star look when he wheres them so > it doesn't look funny. Some people can get away with it and actually make > it look good, but most can not. However on the same token I where makeup to > cover serdury scars under my eyes, and strangers are more willing to talk to > me when I do as aposed to when I don't. So while society does need to be > more excepting of people and we should strive twards that end it is not > usually what you can expect from the world. The world is cruel and > judgmental. As I said before you have to be true to you, but there is a > degree in which you should care. On that same token it is hard to always > know what society will and wont expect. Obviously behaviors and things you > can help should be things you care about but eyes well that is a personal > choice. Is it silly for me to cover up my scars so I am more approachable > or am I being overly concerned. I suppose make up is considered normal by > society so maybe it isn't so odd to where it for that reason. Eyes however > can not be covered up unless you where coloured contacts or sun glasses. I > personally think sun glasses are silly unless you are out doors and it is a > sunny day or you have a sensativity. Coloured contacts might be an option > if you are truly concerned about the appearance of your eyes and that is > something sighted people do to if they do not like their eye colour but I > would imagine it gets expensive. Usually peoples "weered" eyes are not > usually as strange as they think,so it really is a personal choice like > makeup. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 6:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes > > well, light is a factor, one reason to cover eyes. another one is > appearance. > If it detracts from your looks, you do what you need to do for acceptance. I > think doing this on a job interview would help get you a job. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 5:36 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes > > While I understand where you're coming from, I disagree about a blind > person covering their eyes just to make sighted people feel more at > ease. Many of us where sunglasses for various reasons. I where mine on > days when light is causing extra sensitivity or when I opt to not wear > make-up, smile. I have a friend who wears sunglasses to hide scar tissue > and another to hide a glass eye. > > I think it's time the world learn to accept people as they are. If glass > eyes, or eyes with scarring, or cloudiness, cause discomfort among > sighted people, does this mean we need start concealing missing limbs, > birth, or accident related, deformaties, scarring on burn victims? The > list is endless. > > I understand your comments, and I understand why some choose to cover up > any "abnormality" with their eyes, but I think this is unjustly unfair. > We, to some degree, have sway over how we act and present ourselves to > the public, but for many, they have no control over the function, or > lack thereof, color or clarity of their eyes. We shouldn't teach blind > kids to conceal something they can't control, but instead we should > educate society to accept that disability is a part of life and to be > comfortable with people who may have a physical deformity (for lack of a > better word at the moment) scar, missing limb, cognitive impairment or > any other "abnormal" issue. I think it all goes back to us, the disabled > people, having to fit into a mold in order to make others feel more > comfortable, or taking submissive roles so society doesn't feel awkward. > We shouldn't have to take extra measures in terms of a physical aspect > out of our control just so others feel better. We're human and have > feelings. What about the world taking extra measures so we feel less > uncomfortable around those who aren't disabled or have a physical > condition considered abnormal? > > I agree that people who are blind can learn how to dress and interact in > ways that are more socially acceptable, but hiding your eyes because > they make others uncomfortable seems like the wrong message. Perhaps > this is a bit of a leap, but we once were relegated to dark corners and > institutionalized just so society didn't have to literally look at us, > causing them discomfort and guilt. Is covering eyes, limbs, scars, > fractures, etc. just a new way of relegating us into a different kind of > dark corner? Hide as much of us as possible so we don't frighten the > nondisabled population? God forbid people with disabilities get to feel > human for once. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:55:01 -0500 > From: Tara Annis > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus minority groups > Message-ID: > > <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A88580C9 at KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int. > digex.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Arielle, I do think totally blind from birth can improve on nonverbal > communication. I'm not sure if all could get as good as sighted, but I > would say like any skill, each blind person would achieve their own > level of progress. I do agree with stiffness--a lot of nonverbal > communication is done very quickly and in a kind of lazy manner with the > hands at a relaxed position. I'm shocked at all that is communicated; I > recently learned there is a hand movement for so-so or all right, as in > how was your work day and the person would use this gesture as they > verbally say it was all right or okay or so-so. > > A blind person can still appear "normal" without knowing all of these > movements. It is more important for a blind person to get rid of > strange movements than to learn "normal" body language. It is > absolutely necessary to get rid of rocking, inappropriate facial > expression for the situation being experienced (smiling at a funeral), > etc. A blind person can have stiff movements, but still appear "normal" > > What is really needed is a sighted person to evaluate each blind > person on an individual basis, and be honest enough to tell if there are > any totally weird movements. According to the comments on Youtube, Ken > Jennings the blind guy on Jeopardy, had weird facial expressions, so > this seems to be a common problem. > > I think some blind people need to learn more about manners, as in move > to the side of the aisle in a grocery store when another person with a > cart walks by, do not stop at the top of stairs or escalators, and do > not stop when entering the doorway of a business. Also, some tend to > cut people off in crowds or push people out of the way. While I know > it is almost impossible not to fix this completely, I've met people who > do not even try and get better at their O&M. I've been around blind > people that will shove people out of their way at the mall, or push a > door open when there are people standing on the other side of it. They > told me, "it is sighted people's responsibility to watch out for me and > I don't have to do anything on my part cause I'm blind." > > Another area that some blind people need to improve upon is dress. It > is better for blind to wear sunglasses if their eyes are deformed--it > will help the general public be at ease when communicating. Also, some > blind wear clothes that are not in fashion. I've seen parents give > their children "simple" haircuts, buzz cut or shaved head for their son > and a really short bob for girls, since they feel the child cannot > learn to take care of long hair. (I hate when this happens.) I'd > also like to see more blind kids dress for their peer group, such as emo > or goth, hippie, skater, preppie, average person, etc. > > I'm not making fun of people with these traits, I just feel they need > the truth. While I think people should not be judged for their > appearance, many people in the world do act this way, though sometimes > it is subconscious. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 19:00:24 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:00:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learnnaturalmovementandexpressions In-Reply-To: <4A02D34091A5415C990D9848F6884391@OwnerPC> References: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05@OwnerPC><2B129BF69EBF4B4993B18C63D716622B@OwnerPC> <4A02D34091A5415C990D9848F6884391@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <2930D295BB1844088443C07657851F84@OwnerPC> Hi, Due to the spelling, I suspected it was a nickname; and I've met more girls/ladies who liked dancing. But yeah guys do it too. Also in the past, its been only girls who spoke up on list regarding dance. You said you liked modern dancing; I have not met a guy who did modern dance, thought it was a girl thing. The others you did: latin ballroom, swing, and hip hop are definitely for both sexes; and yes you need a partner of the opposite sex for some of them. How many years were you on the college dance team? Was your major or minor in performing arts? You're right that colleges offer these types of beginning classes and so does the Y and county recreation centers. Were all your lessons in a class though? I've been discouraged from taking dance in a class. They do it by demonstration and go fast. In a class, the instructor teaches the guy part and the girl part separately and then once you practice it, you have a partner to do it together. I learn a little slower when it comes to gross motor moves and I am not the greatest of following directions of right and left. I've been told I can do it privately by my parents, but that is so expensive. I don't know how much Authur Murray dance studio charges, but its probably a lot. I probably could only afford 4 or five lessons. A blind friend took private tap, and he said it was $75 per lesson. I actually did try a ballroom dance at the university, and it was a disaster; the instructor was rude and did not want to accommodate. me. My vision impairment caused my feet to turn out and I walk with a gait; he said oh you have to put your feet straight to dance and that my balance was an issue. I know it is sometimes, but I said I would be dancing with a partner, and had danced before with people without falling or anything. Anyway, I'd love to try dance again. Glad you liked it and it worked out. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learnnaturalmovementandexpressions Yes I am a girl my name is Adrianne, and Andi is my nick name, it comes from my initials. However just because I did dance, that is not a reason to assume I am a girl. Their were many guys on both my dance teams and you can not do treditional or Lattin ball room or swing with out a partner. Most of the time it is a boy girl thing. Not always but tipically. When I took hip hop the guys outnumbered the girls. Actually men who dance usually get extra sex appeal points in most womens eyes. I recommend dance for everyone male or female. Like I said before it is great for gaining a more natural appearance and it is also a great way to stay in shape. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn naturalmovementandexpressions So you're a girl, Andi? -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movementandexpressions Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:44 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions I danced for many years including ballet, including pointe. It's very true that ballet dancers learn to position, and move, their bodies in inorganic ways. The motion, when done well, is very graceful and fluid, but the process to harness the technique can take years and actually can do quite a number on your body. Though other dance forms like jazz or tap are not quite as unforgiving as ballet, they still require a lot of discipline to do, especially to master. However, if wanting to learn how to move more naturally, dance certainly can help. Many professional athletes take dance, including ballet, in order to move better on the field or pitch or rink or whatever the case may be. I also have a background in theatre and minored in it when at university back in 2000. Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes. Another way to learn a more natural body movement is to take modeling classes. Now, these can cost, but so can dance and acting classes- it's something to invesigate before signing up. Modeling classes will teach you specifically how to walk and how to use your face to relay things. Models on the runway often use an unnatural gate, but in modeling class itself, you learn how to carry yourself meaning you learn how to move in a graceful, fluid manner. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:54:04 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 19:11:05 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:11:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridgette, Modeling classes sounds good. Do you speak from experience? Anyone here taken a class? Oh, I did not know they went into how to carry yourself and walk gracefully and using your face to relay things. Those are not offered at community centers or colleges. So where do you take them? Just curious. I wonder if anyone has taken it to just improve their image as we are suggesting, or if all participants do it to pursue modeling. Many people take acting and dance classes, yet its for recreation, not to become a professional actor or dancer. I don't know about modeling classes. Very interesting idea. I've been told I am real expressive when talking both in voice and in my expression. I do not walk correctly; I have a gait. But I have heard I walk pretty well in terms of posture. I could always improve though. I'd also like to learn hand gestures someday; now I only know how to wave goodbye. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:44 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions I danced for many years including ballet, including pointe. It's very true that ballet dancers learn to position, and move, their bodies in inorganic ways. The motion, when done well, is very graceful and fluid, but the process to harness the technique can take years and actually can do quite a number on your body. Though other dance forms like jazz or tap are not quite as unforgiving as ballet, they still require a lot of discipline to do, especially to master. However, if wanting to learn how to move more naturally, dance certainly can help. Many professional athletes take dance, including ballet, in order to move better on the field or pitch or rink or whatever the case may be. I also have a background in theatre and minored in it when at university back in 2000. Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes. Another way to learn a more natural body movement is to take modeling classes. Now, these can cost, but so can dance and acting classes- it's something to invesigate before signing up. Modeling classes will teach you specifically how to walk and how to use your face to relay things. Models on the runway often use an unnatural gate, but in modeling class itself, you learn how to carry yourself meaning you learn how to move in a graceful, fluid manner. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:54:04 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sat Nov 19 19:30:45 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:30:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body language from observing others. Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, through learned behavior. It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned in a nonvisual manner. And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 From: Marc Workman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by other minority groups. Cheers, From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 22:34:48 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:34:48 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] For Andy Message-ID: Hi Andy, it's Rania, Can you e-mail me off list? Thanks. Rania, From kobycox at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 20:08:33 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:08:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B913D42-D101-4FAE-BD70-103F97EEED4A@gmail.com> Can you email me off list? Sent from my iPhone On Nov 19, 2011, at 1:30 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand > we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also > should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other > disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. > > Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since > most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body > language from observing others. > > Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we > grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us > as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, > through learned behavior. > > It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior > nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and > understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn > the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a > nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body > expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid > expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is > inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though > nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it > have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting > behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned > in a nonvisual manner. > > And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something > like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or > covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain > behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. > > First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an > individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and > unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, > cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking > is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. > Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental > disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are > blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have > developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also > linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect > people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar > to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated > with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be > controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. > > In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my > point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up > through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or > nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- > acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as > we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with > computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. > > I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or > internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social > behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to > other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 > From: Marc Workman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Carly wrote, > How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if > they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to > sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, > meaning? > > I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind > people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not > suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be > done, but it makes me uncomfortable. > > The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. > I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and > act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and > still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, > there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for > the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give > evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying > to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and > emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give > people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more > "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring > minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, > body language, etc also often happens. > > I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There > may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but > feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you > look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the > least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a > blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body > language etc of some sighted people? > > You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. > There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally > acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have > to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" > are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that > non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate > better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to > assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. > > What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look > and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of > differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so > called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them > out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour > and appearance possessed by other minority groups. > > Cheers, > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 20:36:39 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:36:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like your take on this Bridgit. To me, the issue of blind people learning non verbal communication skills is one of effective communication, rather than enforcing conformity for the sake of making sighted people more comfortable. I agree with all of you that have said that covering up your parts that look different or teaching blind kids to act just like sighted kids for the sake of being "normal" isn't appropriate. It is important to give blind kids the tools they need to communicate effectively in a majority sighted world. If I were to get a job at a company that has me working with many Chinese companies and traveling to China to make business deals, it would be an excellent strategy to learn as much as I can about Chinese customs and forms of communication to make sure I don't accidentally send the wrong messages. I think the same applies for blind people in a sighted world. I want to learn to use non verbal communication well so that I can communicate exactly what I want to to the people around me. Even if I don't always get it right, an approximation of a common gesture is probably better than using no non verbals at all. It's good to be able to communicate in ways that feel natural to you, but it's also good to have the tools to communicate with people who communicate differently than you do. Just my thoughts. -Greg On Nov 19, 2011, at 1:30 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand > we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also > should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other > disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. > > Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since > most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body > language from observing others. > > Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we > grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us > as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, > through learned behavior. > > It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior > nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and > understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn > the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a > nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body > expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid > expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is > inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though > nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it > have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting > behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned > in a nonvisual manner. > > And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something > like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or > covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain > behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. > > First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an > individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and > unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, > cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking > is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. > Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental > disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are > blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have > developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also > linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect > people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar > to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated > with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be > controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. > > In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my > point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up > through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or > nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- > acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as > we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with > computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. > > I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or > internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social > behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to > other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 > From: Marc Workman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Carly wrote, > How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if > they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to > sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, > meaning? > > I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind > people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not > suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be > done, but it makes me uncomfortable. > > The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. > I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and > act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and > still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, > there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for > the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give > evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying > to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and > emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give > people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more > "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring > minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, > body language, etc also often happens. > > I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There > may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but > feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you > look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the > least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a > blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body > language etc of some sighted people? > > You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. > There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally > acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have > to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" > are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that > non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate > better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to > assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. > > What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look > and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of > differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so > called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them > out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour > and appearance possessed by other minority groups. > > Cheers, > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 20:51:37 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 15:51:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a culture learn body language and facial expressions from observing others; our culture emphasises personal space, shaking hands to greet, and eye contact just as some examples. Blind and low vision people won’t see it, but if someone works with us, its still a learned behavior; we just learn in a different way. I think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking hands are natural since I learned early on as did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became more automatic. I also like your comment that we should try to extinguish behaviors associated with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is one of them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural to learn something now; I could do it, but it would probably be stiffer and not as natural like if I learned gestures. What I do though in a presentation is look around the room from left to right; speakers to do this to get attention and establish themselves before talking to a group; I do it even though I cannot see a lot, especially toward the back of the room. I can also say yes or no with my head because I was taught early on. But other nonverbals such as winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with the hand were not taught and I think I'd be a little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still it would be good to try and learn. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body language from observing others. Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, through learned behavior. It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned in a nonvisual manner. And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 From: Marc Workman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by other minority groups. Cheers, _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From carlymih at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 21:03:30 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:03:30 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111119125543.01e0a1a0@earthlink.net> Good afternoon, Ashley I think, What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes upon which are plastered identifiers like "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People ought to feel they can just do what feels right, and comfortable and not be pressured to shead some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he doesn't happen to have so-called cog native impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a >culture learn body language and facial >expressions from observing others; our culture >emphasises personal space, shaking hands to >greet, and eye contact just as some examples. >Blind and low vision people won’t see it, but >if someone works with us, its still a learned >behavior; we just learn in a different way. I >think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking >hands are natural since I learned early on as >did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became >more automatic. I also like your comment that we >should try to extinguish behaviors associated >with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is >one of them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural >to learn something now; I could do it, but it >would probably be stiffer and not as natural >like if I learned gestures. What I do though in >a presentation is look around the room from left >to right; speakers to do this to get attention >and establish themselves before talking to a >group; I do it even though I cannot see a lot, >especially toward the back of the room. I can >also say yes or no with my head because I was >taught early on. But other nonverbals such as >winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with >the hand were not taught and I think I'd be a >little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still >it would be good to try and learn. Ashley >-----Original Message----- From: Bridgit >Pollpeter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 >PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body >language and facial expressions This is such a >dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I >understand we shouldn't use and act in ways >completely unnatural to us, we also should try >to follow behavior that's not indicative of >other disabilities associated with mental and >cognitive issues. Most body language and facial >expressions are learned behavior. Since most of >the population is sighted, we learn facial >expressions and body language from observing >others. Babies and little children often mimic >what they see others doing. As we grow older, we >tend to adopt body and facial expressions >natural to us as individuals, but often >associated, whether conscious or unconscious, >through learned behavior. It stands to reason >that if a person is trying to adopt behavior >nonvisually, one would work with another person >to adopt, and understand, certain facial and >body expressions. Just because we learn the >behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body >language, through a nonvisual medium, does not >necessarily imply that the facial and body >expressions a blind person replaces with either >more stoic and rigid expressions or movement, or >rocking or inappropriate movements, is >inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If >you learn, though nonvisually, a different way >to move and express yourself, why does it have >to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted >people, we're adopting behavior, just in a >different way; it's learned behavior though >learned in a nonvisual manner. And as I've >stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, >hide, something like our eyes is equal to >bleaching skin or straightening hair or covering >accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that >changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can >be equated to this. First, all people have >physical movements often unique to them as an >individual whether noticeable or not. It's often >instinctive and unconscious. However, some >movements are associated with mental, cognitive >or psychological disabilities/concerns. In >particular, rocking is often associated with >developmental disabilities or abuse victims. >Certain facial expressions are also associated >with developmental disabilities and other >psychological issues. Obviously people who are >blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, >don't have developmental disabilities, but >because some of the "blindisms" are also linked >to such disabilities, I don't think it's a >problem to expect people who are blind to >correct such behavior. I don't see this similar >to changing, or concealing, body parts or >internal attributes associated with race or >ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that >can't be controlled such as the functioning of >eyes or missing limbs. In a nutshell, which I >have problems fitting things into, smile, my >point is that body language and many facial >expressions are picked up through learned >behavior. Whether we learn this behavior >visually or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're >just going through the motions- acting as it >were. It's the same process just done >nonvisually. Just as we learn to read and write >Braille or use adaptive technology with >computers. We're doing the same things, just in >a different way. I also don't think we can >compare certain changes nade , physically or >internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to >correcting social behavior such as body language >or facial expressions either linked to other >disabilities or inappropriate to a given >situation. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >"History is not what happened; history is what >was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen >McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 >13:26:31 -0700 From: Marc Workman > To: National >Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] >Blindness versus other minority groups >Message-ID: ><039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Carly >wrote, How can facial expressions and other body >language convey meaning if they are not >naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see >a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression >if, behind it there is little, meaning? I want >to take Carly's point further and suggest that >pressuring blind people to look and act like >others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting >there is no value to it, nor am I saying it >should never be done, but it makes me >uncomfortable. The subject of this thread is >comparing blindness to other minorities. I think >there's a parallel between pressuring blind >people to look and act like everyone else and >things that some minorities used to do and still >do for similar reasons. In the past, among >African Americans, there existed the practice of >skin bleaching and hair straightening for the >purpose of appearing less black and/or more >white. I can't give evidence to show how common >this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to >remove the kink from his hair himself and >finding it a physically and emotionally painful >process. There are also surgeries performed to >give people of East Asian descent more "white >looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" >noses. These are just a couple of >examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the >dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, >body language, etc also often happens. I hope we >can agree that this is at the very least >unfortunate. There may be psychological and >other explanations for why this occurs, but >feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach >your skin so that you look more like one >particular group in society is problematic to >say the least. So what's the difference between >these cases and pressuring a blind person to >adopt the behavioural habits, facial >expressions, body language etc of some sighted >people? You might say that we live in a sighted >world and so we have to adapt. There is >something to this, but I wonder if it would be >equally acceptable to say we live in a >white-dominated world so non-whites have to >adapt. It may be the case that blind people who >don't "look blind" are more successful and >integrate better, and it also may be that >non-whites who look and act white are more >successful and integrate better, but in neither >case is it just that the minorities need to >assume the dominant groups characteristics in >order to be successful. What ultimately needs to >happen is not that blind people begin to look >and act like sighted people, but that we all >become more accepting of differences that are >arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so >called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no >more reason to stamp them out than I do for >trying to eliminate various differences in >behaviour and appearance possessed by other >minority groups. Cheers, >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 21:34:54 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:34:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111119125543.01e0a1a0@earthlink.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111119125543.01e0a1a0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <989E10A1299A4A13B898A8E624996704@OwnerPC> that type of attitude won't get you a job or friends. Its not about fitting into a box, its about learning appropriate communication behaviors to get along in the world. If I decided to live in France and work there, I'd learn French culture, ways of greeting one another, personal space, and other customs and would also learn what was deemed offensive there. So in our culture here, I'll want to learn the same things only differently since most people learn by observation. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Carly Mihalakis Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Good afternoon, Ashley I think, What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes upon which are plastered identifiers like "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People ought to feel they can just do what feels right, and comfortable and not be pressured to shead some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he doesn't happen to have so-called cog native impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a culture learn body language >and facial expressions from observing others; our culture emphasises >personal space, shaking hands to greet, and eye contact just as some >examples. Blind and low vision people won’t see it, but if someone works >with us, its still a learned behavior; we just learn in a different way. I >think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking hands are natural since I >learned early on as did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became more >automatic. I also like your comment that we should try to extinguish >behaviors associated with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is one of >them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural to learn something now; I could do >it, but it would probably be stiffer and not as natural like if I learned >gestures. What I do though in a presentation is look around the room from >left to right; speakers to do this to get attention and establish >themselves before talking to a group; I do it even though I cannot see a >lot, especially toward the back of the room. I can also say yes or no with >my head because I was taught early on. But other nonverbals such as >winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with the hand were not taught >and I think I'd be a little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still it >would be good to try and learn. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: >Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 PM To: >nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand we >shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also should >try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other disabilities >associated with mental and cognitive issues. Most body language and facial >expressions are learned behavior. Since most of the population is sighted, >we learn facial expressions and body language from observing others. Babies >and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we grow >older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us as >individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, >through learned behavior. It stands to reason that if a person is trying to >adopt behavior nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, >and understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn >the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a >nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body >expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid >expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is >inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though >nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it have >to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting >behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned in >a nonvisual manner. And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to >cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or >straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think >that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an >individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and >unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, cognitive >or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking is often >associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. Certain facial >expressions are also associated with developmental disabilities and other >psychological issues. Obviously people who are blind, while many do have >multiple disabilities, don't have developmental disabilities, but because >some of the "blindisms" are also linked to such disabilities, I don't think >it's a problem to expect people who are blind to correct such behavior. I >don't see this similar to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal >attributes associated with race or ethnicity, or in the case of >disabilities that can't be controlled such as the functioning of eyes or >missing limbs. In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, >smile, my point is that body language and many facial expressions are >picked up through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually >or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- >acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as we >learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with computers. >We're doing the same things, just in a different way. I also don't think we >can compare certain changes nade , physically or internally, indicative of >race or ethnicity, to correcting social behavior such as body language or >facial expressions either linked to other disabilities or inappropriate to >a given situation. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what >happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen >McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 From: Marc Workman > To: National Association of Blind Students >mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus >other minority groups Message-ID: ><039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; >charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body >language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason >I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it >there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest >that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself >wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it >should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this >thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a >parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone else >and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar >reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice >of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less >black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this >was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair >himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. There >are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more >"white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just a >couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's >style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I >hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may be >psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling >pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more >like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So >what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to >adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some >sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we >have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be >equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites >have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" >are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that >non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate better, >but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the >dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately >needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like sighted >people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are >arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are >irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for trying >to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by >other minority groups. Cheers, >_______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 21:45:05 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:45:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Message-ID: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> Hi all, Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I’m planning to get a verizon phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but I don’t care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. I’d like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if possible. So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don’t know if they still are produced. What accessible phones do you have and like? Thanks. Ashley From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 21:59:53 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:59:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: <989E10A1299A4A13B898A8E624996704@OwnerPC> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111119125543.01e0a1a0@earthlink.net> <989E10A1299A4A13B898A8E624996704@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Bridgit, I liked what you said, but I think you should know that there are some facial expressions that blind people don't have to learn. For instance, a smile is genetically encoded in everybody. We don't need sighted people to tell us how to do that. I think it's best to start with what blind people already know, then find a trusted sighted friend or family member and talk to them about nonverbal communication. As I say, we really don't have far to go, because there are genetic codes for a lot of these facial expressions. It's just a matter of learning to use them and practicing them. Patrick On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > that type of attitude won't get you a job or friends. Its not about fitting > into a box, its about learning appropriate communication behaviors to get > along in the world. If I decided to live in France and work there, I'd learn > French culture, ways of greeting one another, personal space, and other > customs and would also learn what was deemed offensive there. So in our > culture here, I'll want to learn the same things only differently since most > people learn by observation. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carly Mihalakis > Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; National > Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > > > Good afternoon, Ashley I think, > > What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes > upon which are plastered identifiers like > "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People > ought to feel they can just do what feels right, > and comfortable and not be pressured to shead > some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha > think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in > this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he > doesn't happen to have so-called cog native > impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, > clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a culture learn body language >>and facial expressions from observing others; our culture emphasises >>personal space, shaking hands to greet, and eye contact just as some >>examples. Blind and low vision people won’t see it, but if someone works >>with us, its still a learned behavior; we just learn in a different way. I >>think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking hands are natural since I >>learned early on as did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became more >>automatic. I also like your comment that we should try to extinguish >>behaviors associated with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is one of >> >>them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural to learn something now; I could do >> >>it, but it would probably be stiffer and not as natural like if I learned >>gestures. What I do though in a presentation is look around the room from >>left to right; speakers to do this to get attention and establish >>themselves before talking to a group; I do it even though I cannot see a >>lot, especially toward the back of the room. I can also say yes or no with >>my head because I was taught early on. But other nonverbals such as >>winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with the hand were not taught >>and I think I'd be a little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still it >>would be good to try and learn. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: >>Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 PM To: >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand we >> >>shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also should >>try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other disabilities >>associated with mental and cognitive issues. Most body language and facial >>expressions are learned behavior. Since most of the population is sighted, >>we learn facial expressions and body language from observing others. Babies >> >>and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we grow >>older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us as >>individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, >>through learned behavior. It stands to reason that if a person is trying to >> >>adopt behavior nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, >>and understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn >>the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a >>nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body >>expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid >>expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is >>inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though >>nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it have >> >>to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting >>behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned in >>a nonvisual manner. And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to >>cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or >>straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think >>that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >>First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an >>individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and >>unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, cognitive >>or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking is often >>associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. Certain facial >> >>expressions are also associated with developmental disabilities and other >>psychological issues. Obviously people who are blind, while many do have >>multiple disabilities, don't have developmental disabilities, but because >>some of the "blindisms" are also linked to such disabilities, I don't think >> >>it's a problem to expect people who are blind to correct such behavior. I >>don't see this similar to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal >>attributes associated with race or ethnicity, or in the case of >>disabilities that can't be controlled such as the functioning of eyes or >>missing limbs. In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, >>smile, my point is that body language and many facial expressions are >>picked up through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually >> >>or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- >>acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as we >>learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with computers. >>We're doing the same things, just in a different way. I also don't think we >> >>can compare certain changes nade , physically or internally, indicative of >>race or ethnicity, to correcting social behavior such as body language or >>facial expressions either linked to other disabilities or inappropriate to >>a given situation. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: >>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what >>happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen >>McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 From: Marc Workman >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students >>mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus >>other minority groups Message-ID: >><039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; >>charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body >>language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason >> >>I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it >>there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest >>that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself >>wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it >>should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this >>thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a >>parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone else >> >>and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar >>reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice >>of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less >>black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this >>was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair >>himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. There >> >>are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more >>"white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just a >> >>couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's >>style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I >>hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may be >> >>psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling >>pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more >>like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So >>what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to >>adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some >> >>sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we >>have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be >>equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites >>have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" >> >>are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that >>non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate better, >> >>but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the >>dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately >>needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like sighted >> >>people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are >>arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are >>irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for trying >> >>to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by >>other minority groups. Cheers, >>_______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >>_______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sat Nov 19 22:10:41 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:10:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones In-Reply-To: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> References: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I'm interested in accessible phones too! I hate my outtdated Trakfone! Blessings, Joshua On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I’m planning to get a verizon > phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but I > don’t care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. > I’d like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if possible. > > So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don’t know if > they still are produced. > > What accessible phones do you have and like? > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 22:10:57 2011 From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com (frandi.galindo at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:10:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones In-Reply-To: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> References: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> Message-ID: there is the haven phone. it will read you the clock, and what ever else you need it to do. However I think that their could be some major improvements to the speech, but who knows if that will ha[ppen. The speech i s a bit slow, and as far as I know there is no way to adjust it. That is all I know about that. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Hi all, Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I’m planning to get a verizon phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but I don’t care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. I’d like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if possible. So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don’t know if they still are produced. What accessible phones do you have and like? Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 01:17:24 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:17:24 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones In-Reply-To: References: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <0F81EE2607184DDAB02DD742A8B708D0@userPC> Yes Brandy is correct. I like the Haven as well but it could use some changes but not sure if they will happen. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] verizon phones there is the haven phone. it will read you the clock, and what ever else you need it to do. However I think that their could be some major improvements to the speech, but who knows if that will ha[ppen. The speech i s a bit slow, and as far as I know there is no way to adjust it. That is all I know about that. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Hi all, Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I'm planning to get a verizon phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but I don't care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. I'd like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if possible. So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don't know if they still are produced. What accessible phones do you have and like? Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 22:40:13 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:40:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111119125543.01e0a1a0@earthlink.net><989E10A1299A4A13B898A8E624996704@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Patrick, Right. Facial expressions are often natural. They reflect our mood. No one taught me to look sad, happy, worried, annoyed, etc, it just happens if I feel that way. But some totally blind people seem so expressionless, and I don't understand why, because like you said, facial expressions are genetically encoded. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Molloy Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Bridgit, I liked what you said, but I think you should know that there are some facial expressions that blind people don't have to learn. For instance, a smile is genetically encoded in everybody. We don't need sighted people to tell us how to do that. I think it's best to start with what blind people already know, then find a trusted sighted friend or family member and talk to them about nonverbal communication. As I say, we really don't have far to go, because there are genetic codes for a lot of these facial expressions. It's just a matter of learning to use them and practicing them. Patrick On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > that type of attitude won't get you a job or friends. Its not about > fitting > into a box, its about learning appropriate communication behaviors to get > along in the world. If I decided to live in France and work there, I'd > learn > French culture, ways of greeting one another, personal space, and other > customs and would also learn what was deemed offensive there. So in our > culture here, I'll want to learn the same things only differently since > most > people learn by observation. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carly Mihalakis > Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; National > Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > > > Good afternoon, Ashley I think, > > What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes > upon which are plastered identifiers like > "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People > ought to feel they can just do what feels right, > and comfortable and not be pressured to shead > some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha > think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in > this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he > doesn't happen to have so-called cog native > impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, > clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a culture learn body language >>and facial expressions from observing others; our culture emphasises >>personal space, shaking hands to greet, and eye contact just as some >>examples. Blind and low vision people won’t see it, but if someone works >>with us, its still a learned behavior; we just learn in a different way. I >>think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking hands are natural since I >>learned early on as did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became more >>automatic. I also like your comment that we should try to extinguish >>behaviors associated with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is one >>of >> >>them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural to learn something now; I could >>do >> >>it, but it would probably be stiffer and not as natural like if I learned >>gestures. What I do though in a presentation is look around the room from >>left to right; speakers to do this to get attention and establish >>themselves before talking to a group; I do it even though I cannot see a >>lot, especially toward the back of the room. I can also say yes or no with >>my head because I was taught early on. But other nonverbals such as >>winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with the hand were not taught >>and I think I'd be a little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still it >>would be good to try and learn. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: >>Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 PM To: >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand >>we >> >>shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also should >>try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other disabilities >>associated with mental and cognitive issues. Most body language and facial >>expressions are learned behavior. Since most of the population is sighted, >>we learn facial expressions and body language from observing others. >>Babies >> >>and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we grow >>older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us as >>individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, >>through learned behavior. It stands to reason that if a person is trying >>to >> >>adopt behavior nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, >>and understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn >>the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a >>nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body >>expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid >>expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is >>inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though >>nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it >>have >> >>to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting >>behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned in >>a nonvisual manner. And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to >>cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or >>straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think >>that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >>First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an >>individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and >>unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, cognitive >>or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking is often >>associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. Certain >>facial >> >>expressions are also associated with developmental disabilities and other >>psychological issues. Obviously people who are blind, while many do have >>multiple disabilities, don't have developmental disabilities, but because >>some of the "blindisms" are also linked to such disabilities, I don't >>think >> >>it's a problem to expect people who are blind to correct such behavior. I >>don't see this similar to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal >>attributes associated with race or ethnicity, or in the case of >>disabilities that can't be controlled such as the functioning of eyes or >>missing limbs. In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, >>smile, my point is that body language and many facial expressions are >>picked up through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior >>visually >> >>or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- >>acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as we >>learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with computers. >>We're doing the same things, just in a different way. I also don't think >>we >> >>can compare certain changes nade , physically or internally, indicative of >>race or ethnicity, to correcting social behavior such as body language or >>facial expressions either linked to other disabilities or inappropriate to >>a given situation. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: >>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what >>happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen >>McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 From: Marc >>Workman >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students >>mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus >>other minority groups Message-ID: >><039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; >>charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body >>language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this >>reason >> >>I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it >>there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest >>that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself >>wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it >>should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this >>thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a >>parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone >>else >> >>and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar >>reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice >>of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less >>black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this >>was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair >>himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. >>There >> >>are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more >>"white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just >>a >> >>couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's >>style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I >>hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may >>be >> >>psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling >>pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more >>like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So >>what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to >>adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of >>some >> >>sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we >>have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be >>equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites >>have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look >>blind" >> >>are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that >>non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate >>better, >> >>but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the >>dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately >>needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like >>sighted >> >>people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are >>arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are >>irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for >>trying >> >>to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by >>other minority groups. Cheers, >>_______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >>_______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 22:42:37 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:42:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones In-Reply-To: References: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <07F75D9C239E41EDBE362AEB2A4DFA8D@OwnerPC> is the haven male or female speech? -----Original Message----- From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 5:10 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] verizon phones there is the haven phone. it will read you the clock, and what ever else you need it to do. However I think that their could be some major improvements to the speech, but who knows if that will ha[ppen. The speech i s a bit slow, and as far as I know there is no way to adjust it. That is all I know about that. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Hi all, Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I’m planning to get a verizon phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but I don’t care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. I’d like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if possible. So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don’t know if they still are produced. What accessible phones do you have and like? Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 19 22:43:36 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:43:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones In-Reply-To: References: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <7356746F11904E1B967ED02ADB2ACB6C@OwnerPC> Joshua, When your phone contract expires, you can upgrade. If you have verizon, seems like many like the haven. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 5:10 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] verizon phones I'm interested in accessible phones too! I hate my outtdated Trakfone! Blessings, Joshua On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I’m planning to get a verizon > phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but I > don’t care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. > I’d like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if > possible. > > So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don’t know > if > they still are produced. > > What accessible phones do you have and like? > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sat Nov 19 22:51:46 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:51:46 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones In-Reply-To: <7356746F11904E1B967ED02ADB2ACB6C@OwnerPC> References: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> <7356746F11904E1B967ED02ADB2ACB6C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I have a Tracfone, that was actually one of the first phones to come out. I want a totally new phone, with actual ringtones, as opposed to music, that sounds like it comes from a battery-opperated hand-held game. The only problem is that the newer Tracfones don't have large enough buttons, so I can tell them apart. Blessings, Joshua On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Joshua, > When your phone contract expires, you can upgrade. If you have verizon, > seems like many like the haven. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 5:10 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] verizon phones > > I'm interested in accessible phones too! > I hate my outtdated Trakfone! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I’m planning to get a verizon >> phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but I >> don’t care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. >> I’d like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if >> possible. >> >> So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don’t know >> if >> they still are produced. >> >> What accessible phones do you have and like? >> >> Thanks. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 23:17:39 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:17:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5DC1F3E4-9130-4E7C-9CAC-1D33259AFFB4@gmail.com> Bridgit wrote, And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. The reason then offered for drawing this distinction, as far as I can tell, is that some behaviours are associated with other disabilities or with having experienced abuse. And where a blind person does not have these other disabilities or has not experienced abuse, it then becomes acceptable to pressure that person, where pressure can be either overt or subtle, to stop exhibiting those behaviours. I'm entirely puzzled by this argument. I see no reason why the fact that society has associated a set of behaviours with various disabilities/experiences makes it acceptable to try to stamp out those behaviours in people who do not have those disabilities/experiences. If this line of thinking is right, then whenever women act, walk, talk, dress, etc in ways that are typically associated with the ways in which men act, walk, talk, dress, etc, it would be perfectly appropriate to make them feel like they are doing something wrong, to dissuade them from exhibiting those behaviours, and to teach them the "proper" way for women to act, walk, talk, dress, etc. Personally, I see a problem with this. Perhaps, though, the argument is only meant to apply in cases where the behaviours are associated with cognitive or intellectual disability. I confess that I can't think of a good reason why behaviours associated with cognitive disability are to be avoided among those without such disabilities but where behaviours typically associated with men may appropriately be exhibited by women. Unless, that is, we view men and women as equal but do not view people with and without intellectual disabilities as equals. I would take issue with that myself. Greg wrote, It is important to give blind kids the tools they need to communicate effectively in a majority sighted world. If I were to get a job at a company that has me working with many Chinese companies and traveling to China to make business deals, it would be an excellent strategy to learn as much as I can about Chinese customs and forms of communication to make sure I don't accidentally send the wrong messages. I think the same applies for blind people in a sighted world. I want to learn to use non verbal communication well so that I can communicate exactly what I want to to the people around me. A few comments by way of response: firstly, this seems to presuppose that communicating in these non-verbal ways is inherently more effective. It may be true that people rely on these non-verbal forms of communication, and so blind people who do not use them may find it harder to communicate, but this doesn't actually demonstrate that one form is more effective than the other. In fact, it could turn out that relying on non-verbal communication is actually less effective and that we would all communicate better if we didn't rely on non-verbal so much. However, even if it turns out that non-verbal is more effective, it's not clear that we, meaning everyone, would be better off trying to teach approximations of it rather than trying to teach a greater openness to various kinds of communication. I think the latter would be better myself. Secondly, I think the analogy of getting a job requiring travel to China and Ashley's example of moving to France don't quite fit. The important difference is that we do not choose to live in a sighted world. I'm not aware of any viable alternative to living in a sighted world, and I do not consider withdrawing from society to be a viable alternative. If you choose to get a job requiring travel to China or move to France, then it makes some sense that you would want to learn about Chinese and French customs, behaviours, communication, etc. Even then, I think challenging, questioning, reforming these customs, behaviours, communications is acceptable and maybe morally required in some cases. But what if a person was forced against her will to move to France and then told she cannot have friends or a job until she sufficiently mimics french people. To me, this would be a better analogy, and it strikes me as wrong. She may learn to mimic french people out of necessity, but I think it's obviously wrong to require this of her. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-19, at 12:30 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand > we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also > should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other > disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. > > Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since > most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body > language from observing others. > > Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we > grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us > as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, > through learned behavior. > > It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior > nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and > understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn > the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a > nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body > expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid > expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is > inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though > nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it > have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting > behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned > in a nonvisual manner. > > And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something > like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or > covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain > behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. > > First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an > individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and > unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, > cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking > is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. > Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental > disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are > blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have > developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also > linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect > people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar > to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated > with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be > controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. > > In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my > point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up > through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or > nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- > acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as > we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with > computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. > > I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or > internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social > behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to > other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 > From: Marc Workman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Carly wrote, > How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if > they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to > sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, > meaning? > > I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind > people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not > suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be > done, but it makes me uncomfortable. > > The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. > I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and > act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and > still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, > there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for > the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give > evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying > to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and > emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give > people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more > "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring > minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, > body language, etc also often happens. > > I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There > may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but > feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you > look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the > least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a > blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body > language etc of some sighted people? > > You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. > There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally > acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have > to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" > are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that > non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate > better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to > assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. > > What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look > and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of > differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so > called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them > out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour > and appearance possessed by other minority groups. > > Cheers, > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From brlsurfer at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 23:26:44 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 15:26:44 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Message-ID: <4ec83b54.e426340a.230e.1393@mx.google.com> Ashley, I=20have=20an=20ATANDT=20phone.=20=20Though=20I=20am=20not=20sure=20whether= =20it=20allows=20 recordings=20or=20alarms,=20it=20has=20a=20calendar,=20it=20talks=20and=20i= t=20reads=20 text=20messages.=20=20My=20friend=20Jason=20Polansky,=20who=20is=20also=20b= lind,=20has=20 a=20Verizon=20that=20doesn't=20read=20texts=20for=20him. Vejas i =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20 References: Message-ID: Jewel, you said you already have a codebook for Nemeth? Can you use that? Arielle On 11/15/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > hmm. check NLS. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jewel > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:07 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Self-teaching Nemeth code > > Dear all, > Next semester I'll be taking my first mathematics course as a blind > student (I took college algebra as a sighted student years ago). My > workbook will be available to me in Nemeth Braille, and I want to be > sure I knowe the Nemeth code well before next semester. I prefer not > to go with Hadley because I don't like to do all the assignments and > such. I'd like recommendations for websites, books, and the like for > teaching myself the Nemeth Braille code. I already have the Nemeth > Braille Code for Mathematics and Science Notation. > > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! > > ~Jewel > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 00:32:22 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 19:32:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111119125543.01e0a1a0@earthlink.net> <989E10A1299A4A13B898A8E624996704@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, Maybe some blind people don't know how and when to use the facial expressions that they already have, and because of this, they don't use any expressions at all. It's an interesting question. I mean, the "programming" is there, but like you said, some people just have no facial expression. Patrick On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Patrick, > Right. Facial expressions are often natural. They reflect our mood. No one > taught me to look sad, happy, worried, annoyed, etc, it just happens if I > feel that way. But some totally blind people seem so expressionless, and I > don't understand why, because like you said, facial expressions are > genetically encoded. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick Molloy > Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:59 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > > Bridgit, > I liked what you said, but I think you should know that there are some > facial expressions that blind people don't have to learn. For > instance, a smile is genetically encoded in everybody. We don't need > sighted people to tell us how to do that. I think it's best to start > with what blind people already know, then find a trusted sighted > friend or family member and talk to them about nonverbal > communication. As I say, we really don't have far to go, because there > are genetic codes for a lot of these facial expressions. It's just a > matter of learning to use them and practicing them. > Patrick > > On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> that type of attitude won't get you a job or friends. Its not about >> fitting >> into a box, its about learning appropriate communication behaviors to get >> along in the world. If I decided to live in France and work there, I'd >> learn >> French culture, ways of greeting one another, personal space, and other >> customs and would also learn what was deemed offensive there. So in our >> culture here, I'll want to learn the same things only differently since >> most >> people learn by observation. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Carly Mihalakis >> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; National >> Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> >> >> Good afternoon, Ashley I think, >> >> What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes >> upon which are plastered identifiers like >> "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People >> ought to feel they can just do what feels right, >> and comfortable and not be pressured to shead >> some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha >> think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in >> this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he >> doesn't happen to have so-called cog native >> impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, >> clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a culture learn body language >>>and facial expressions from observing others; our culture emphasises >>>personal space, shaking hands to greet, and eye contact just as some >>>examples. Blind and low vision people won’t see it, but if someone works >>>with us, its still a learned behavior; we just learn in a different way. I >>>think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking hands are natural since I >>>learned early on as did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became more >>>automatic. I also like your comment that we should try to extinguish >>>behaviors associated with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is one >>>of >>> >>>them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural to learn something now; I could >>>do >>> >>>it, but it would probably be stiffer and not as natural like if I learned >>>gestures. What I do though in a presentation is look around the room from >>>left to right; speakers to do this to get attention and establish >>>themselves before talking to a group; I do it even though I cannot see a >>>lot, especially toward the back of the room. I can also say yes or no with >>>my head because I was taught early on. But other nonverbals such as >>>winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with the hand were not taught >>>and I think I'd be a little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still it >>>would be good to try and learn. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: >>>Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 PM To: >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>>This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand >>>we >>> >>>shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also should >>>try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other disabilities >>>associated with mental and cognitive issues. Most body language and facial >>>expressions are learned behavior. Since most of the population is sighted, >>>we learn facial expressions and body language from observing others. >>>Babies >>> >>>and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we grow >>>older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us as >>>individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, >>>through learned behavior. It stands to reason that if a person is trying >>>to >>> >>>adopt behavior nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, >>>and understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn >>>the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a >>>nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body >>>expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid >>>expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is >>>inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though >>>nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it >>>have >>> >>>to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting >>>behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned in >>>a nonvisual manner. And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to >>>cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or >>>straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think >>>that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >>>First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an >>>individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and >>>unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, cognitive >>>or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking is often >>>associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. Certain >>>facial >>> >>>expressions are also associated with developmental disabilities and other >>>psychological issues. Obviously people who are blind, while many do have >>>multiple disabilities, don't have developmental disabilities, but because >>>some of the "blindisms" are also linked to such disabilities, I don't >>>think >>> >>>it's a problem to expect people who are blind to correct such behavior. I >>>don't see this similar to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal >>>attributes associated with race or ethnicity, or in the case of >>>disabilities that can't be controlled such as the functioning of eyes or >>>missing limbs. In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, >>>smile, my point is that body language and many facial expressions are >>>picked up through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior >>>visually >>> >>>or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- >>>acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as we >>>learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with computers. >>>We're doing the same things, just in a different way. I also don't think >>>we >>> >>>can compare certain changes nade , physically or internally, indicative of >>>race or ethnicity, to correcting social behavior such as body language or >>>facial expressions either linked to other disabilities or inappropriate to >>>a given situation. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: >>>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what >>>happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen >>>McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 From: Marc >>>Workman >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students >>>mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus >>>other minority groups Message-ID: >>><039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; >>>charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body >>>language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this >>>reason >>> >>>I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it >>>there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest >>>that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself >>>wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it >>>should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this >>>thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a >>>parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone >>>else >>> >>>and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar >>>reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice >>>of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less >>>black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this >>>was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair >>>himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. >>>There >>> >>>are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more >>>"white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just >>>a >>> >>>couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's >>>style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I >>>hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may >>>be >>> >>>psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling >>>pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more >>>like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So >>>what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to >>>adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of >>>some >>> >>>sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we >>>have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be >>>equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites >>>have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look >>>blind" >>> >>>are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that >>>non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate >>>better, >>> >>>but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the >>>dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately >>>needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like >>>sighted >>> >>>people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are >>>arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are >>>irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for >>>trying >>> >>>to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by >>>other minority groups. Cheers, >>>_______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>>unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>>_______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>>unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 22:21:17 2011 From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com (frandi.galindo at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:21:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones In-Reply-To: <0F81EE2607184DDAB02DD742A8B708D0@userPC> References: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> <0F81EE2607184DDAB02DD742A8B708D0@userPC> Message-ID: <70CC501D5F704B33BDA5113591068A0E@OwnerPC> Its frandi. What if your name was paul and I call you paula -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:17 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] verizon phones Yes Brandy is correct. I like the Haven as well but it could use some changes but not sure if they will happen. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] verizon phones there is the haven phone. it will read you the clock, and what ever else you need it to do. However I think that their could be some major improvements to the speech, but who knows if that will ha[ppen. The speech i s a bit slow, and as far as I know there is no way to adjust it. That is all I know about that. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Hi all, Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I'm planning to get a verizon phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but I don't care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. I'd like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if possible. So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don't know if they still are produced. What accessible phones do you have and like? Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com From brlsurfer at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 00:48:47 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:48:47 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: <4ec84e93.e426340a.230e.1c5c@mx.google.com> I=20don't=20know=20if=20any=20of=20you=20have=20this=20problem,=20but=20I=20= have=20trouble=20 smiling=20on=20camera.=20=20I=20don't=20know-I=20just=20can't=20always=20ge= t=20myself=20 to=20do=20it,=20but=20then=20when=20something=20isn't=20funny=20sometimes=20= I=20do=20 smile,=20and=20I=20might=20be=20thinking=20about=20something=20which=20real= ly=20isn't=20 funny=20to=20someone=20else. Vejas =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Patrick=20Molloy=20=20wrote: =20Patrick, =20Right.=20=20Facial=20expressions=20are=20often=20natural.=20=20They=20re= flect=20our=20 mood.=20=20No=20one =20taught=20me=20to=20look=20sad,=20happy,=20worried,=20annoyed,=20etc,=20i= t=20just=20 happens=20if=20I =20feel=20that=20way.=20=20But=20some=20totally=20blind=20people=20seem=20s= o=20 expressionless,=20and=20I =20don't=20understand=20why,=20because=20like=20you=20said,=20facial=20expr= essions=20 are =20genetically=20encoded. =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Patrick=20Molloy =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20November=2019,=202011=204:59=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Body=20language=20and=20facial=20expressions= =20Bridgit, =20I=20liked=20what=20you=20said,=20but=20I=20think=20you=20should=20know=20= that=20there=20 are=20some =20facial=20expressions=20that=20blind=20people=20don't=20have=20to=20learn= .=20=20For =20instance,=20a=20smile=20is=20genetically=20encoded=20in=20everybody.=20= =20We=20don't=20 need =20sighted=20people=20to=20tell=20us=20how=20to=20do=20that.=20=20I=20think= =20it's=20best=20to=20 start =20with=20what=20blind=20people=20already=20know,=20then=20find=20a=20trust= ed=20sighted =20friend=20or=20family=20member=20and=20talk=20to=20them=20about=20nonverb= al =20communication.=20=20As=20I=20say,=20we=20really=20don't=20have=20far=20t= o=20go,=20 because=20there =20are=20genetic=20codes=20for=20a=20lot=20of=20these=20facial=20expression= s.=20=20It's=20 just=20a =20matter=20of=20learning=20to=20use=20them=20and=20practicing=20them. =20Patrick =20On=2011/19/11,=20Ashley=20Bramlett=20=20wrote= : =20that=20type=20of=20attitude=20won't=20get=20you=20a=20job=20or=20friends= .=20=20Its=20not=20 about =20fitting =20into=20a=20box,=20its=20about=20learning=20appropriate=20communication=20= behaviors=20to=20get =20along=20in=20the=20world.=20=20If=20I=20decided=20to=20live=20in=20Franc= e=20and=20work=20 there,=20I'd =20learn =20French=20culture,=20ways=20of=20greeting=20one=20another,=20personal=20s= pace,=20 and=20other =20customs=20and=20would=20also=20learn=20what=20was=20deemed=20offensive=20= there.=20=20 So=20in=20our =20culture=20here,=20I'll=20want=20to=20learn=20the=20same=20things=20only= =20 differently=20since =20most =20people=20learn=20by=20observation. =20Ashley =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Carly=20Mihalakis =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20November=2019,=202011=204:03=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list=20= ;=20 National =20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Body=20language=20and=20facial=20expressions= =20Good=20afternoon,=20Ashley=20I=20think, =20What's=20with=20trying=20to=20cram=20everyone=20into=20boxes =20upon=20which=20are=20plastered=20identifiers=20like =20"blindness"=20and=20"cognitive=20impairments?"=20People =20ought=20to=20feel=20they=20can=20just=20do=20what=20feels=20right, =20and=20comfortable=20and=20not=20be=20pressured=20to=20shead =20some=20mannerisms,=20while=20retaining=20others.=20=20Doncha =20think?=20And,=20besides,=20there=20are=20folks=20starving,=20in =20this=20here=20world=20so=20if=20kid=20needs=20to=20rock,=20and=20he =20doesn't=20happen=20to=20have=20so-called=20cog=20native =20impairment,=20let=20the=20kid=20rock=20around=20the=20whole, =20clock!11/19/2011,=20Ashley=20Bramlett=20wrote: Bridgit,=20Very=20well=20said!=20Sighted=20people=20in=20a=20culture=20lear= n=20body=20 language and=20facial=20expressions=20from=20observing=20others;=20our=20culture=20 emphasises personal=20space,=20shaking=20hands=20to=20greet,=20and=20eye=20contact=20j= ust=20as=20 some examples.=20=20Blind=20and=20low=20vision=20people=20won=E2=80=99t=20see=20= it,=20but=20if=20 someone=20works with=20us,=20its=20still=20a=20learned=20behavior;=20we=20just=20learn=20in= =20a=20 different=20way.=20=20I think=20behaviors=20such=20as=20eye=20contact=20and=20shaking=20hands=20=20= are=20 natural=20since=20I learned=20early=20on=20as=20did=20sighted=20peers.=20=20Once=20practiced,=20= it=20became=20 more automatic.=20=20I=20also=20like=20your=20comment=20that=20we=20should=20try= =20to=20 extinguish behaviors=20associated=20with=20mental=20and=20cognitive=20behaviors.=20=20= Rocking=20is=20one of them.=20=20Yet,=20I=20think=20it=20would=20be=20unnatural=20to=20learn=20so= mething=20now;=20 I=20could do it,=20but=20it=20would=20probably=20be=20stiffer=20and=20not=20as=20natural= =20like=20if=20I=20 learned gestures.=20=20What=20I=20do=20though=20in=20a=20presentation=20is=20look=20= around=20the=20 room=20from left=20to=20right;=20speakers=20to=20do=20this=20to=20get=20attention=20and= =20establish themselves=20before=20talking=20to=20a=20group;=20I=20do=20it=20even=20thou= gh=20I=20 cannot=20see=20a lot,=20especially=20toward=20the=20back=20of=20the=20room.=20=20I=20can=20a= lso=20say=20yes=20 or=20no=20with my=20head=20because=20I=20was=20taught=20early=20on.=20=20But=20other=20non= verbals=20such=20 as winking,=20shrugging=20shoulders,=20and=20becconing=20with=20the=20hand=20w= ere=20 not=20taught and=20I=20think=20I'd=20be=20a=20little=20stiffer=20and=20unnatural=20doing= =20them.=20=20 Still=20it would=20be=20good=20to=20try=20and=20learn.=20=20Ashley=20-----Original=20 Message-----=20From: Bridgit=20Pollpeter=20Sent:=20Saturday,=20November=2019,=202011=202:30=20PM= =20To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org=20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20Body=20language=20and=20facial=20= expressions This=20is=20such=20a=20dodgy=20issue.=20=20It=20is=20a=20fine=20balance,=20= and=20while=20I=20 understand we shouldn't=20use=20and=20act=20in=20ways=20completely=20unnatural=20to=20us,= =20we=20also=20 should try=20to=20follow=20behavior=20that's=20not=20indicative=20of=20other=20 disabilities associated=20with=20mental=20and=20cognitive=20issues.=20=20Most=20body=20l= anguage=20 and=20facial expressions=20are=20learned=20behavior.=20=20Since=20most=20of=20the=20popu= lation=20 is=20sighted, we=20learn=20facial=20expressions=20and=20body=20language=20from=20observin= g=20 others. Babies and=20little=20children=20often=20mimic=20what=20they=20see=20others=20doin= g.=20=20As=20 we=20grow older,=20we=20tend=20to=20adopt=20body=20and=20facial=20expressions=20natur= al=20to=20us=20 as individuals,=20but=20often=20associated,=20whether=20conscious=20or=20 unconscious, through=20learned=20behavior.=20=20It=20stands=20to=20reason=20that=20if=20= a=20person=20 is=20trying to adopt=20behavior=20nonvisually,=20one=20would=20work=20with=20another=20per= son=20to=20 adopt, and=20understand,=20certain=20facial=20and=20body=20expressions.=20=20Just= =20 because=20we=20learn the=20behavior,=20A.=20=20K.=20=20A.=20=20facial=20expressions=20and=20body= =20language,=20 through=20a nonvisual=20medium,=20does=20not=20necessarily=20imply=20that=20the=20facia= l=20and=20 body expressions=20a=20blind=20person=20replaces=20with=20either=20more=20stoic= =20and=20 rigid expressions=20or=20movement,=20or=20rocking=20or=20inappropriate=20movement= s,=20 is inorganic,=20or=20unnatural,=20to=20that=20individual.=20=20If=20you=20lear= n,=20 though nonvisually,=20a=20different=20way=20to=20move=20and=20express=20yourself,= =20why=20 does=20it have to=20be=20unnatural=20and=20arbitrary?=20Like=20sighted=20people,=20we're=20= adopting behavior,=20just=20in=20a=20different=20way;=20it's=20learned=20behavior=20= though=20 learned=20in a=20nonvisual=20manner.=20=20And=20as=20I've=20stated=20earlier,=20I=20beli= eve=20asking=20 u=20to cover,=20hide,=20something=20like=20our=20eyes=20is=20equal=20to=20bleachin= g=20skin=20 or straightening=20hair=20or=20covering=20accents/dialects;=20I=20don't,=20 however,=20think that=20changing=20certain=20behaviors,=20such=20as=20rocking,=20can=20be=20= equated=20 to=20this. First,=20all=20people=20have=20physical=20movements=20often=20unique=20to=20= them=20as=20 an individual=20whether=20noticeable=20or=20not.=20=20It's=20often=20instincti= ve=20and unconscious.=20=20However,=20some=20movements=20are=20associated=20with=20m= ental,=20 cognitive or=20psychological=20disabilities/concerns.=20=20In=20particular,=20rocking= =20 is=20often associated=20with=20developmental=20disabilities=20or=20abuse=20victims.=20= =20 Certain facial expressions=20are=20also=20associated=20with=20developmental=20disabilities= =20 and=20other psychological=20issues.=20=20Obviously=20people=20who=20are=20blind,=20whil= e=20many=20 do=20have multiple=20disabilities,=20don't=20have=20developmental=20disabilities,=20b= ut=20 because some=20of=20the=20"blindisms"=20are=20also=20linked=20to=20such=20disabilit= ies,=20I=20 don't think it's=20a=20problem=20to=20expect=20people=20who=20are=20blind=20to=20correc= t=20such=20 behavior.=20=20I don't=20see=20this=20similar=20to=20changing,=20or=20concealing,=20body=20p= arts=20or=20 internal attributes=20associated=20with=20race=20or=20ethnicity,=20or=20in=20the=20c= ase=20of disabilities=20that=20can't=20be=20controlled=20such=20as=20the=20functioni= ng=20of=20 eyes=20or missing=20limbs.=20=20In=20a=20nutshell,=20which=20I=20have=20problems=20fi= tting=20 things=20into, smile,=20my=20point=20is=20that=20body=20language=20and=20many=20facial=20e= xpressions=20 are picked=20up=20through=20learned=20behavior.=20=20Whether=20we=20learn=20thi= s=20 behavior visually or=20nonvisually,=20it=20doesn't=20mean=20we're=20just=20going=20through=20= the=20 motions- acting=20as=20it=20were.=20=20It's=20the=20same=20process=20just=20done=20n= onvisually.=20=20 Just=20as=20we learn=20to=20read=20and=20write=20Braille=20or=20use=20adaptive=20technolog= y=20with=20 computers. We're=20doing=20the=20same=20things,=20just=20in=20a=20different=20way.=20= =20I=20also=20 don't=20think we can=20compare=20certain=20changes=20nade=20,=20physically=20or=20internally= ,=20 indicative=20of race=20or=20ethnicity,=20to=20correcting=20social=20behavior=20such=20as=20= body=20 language=20or facial=20expressions=20either=20linked=20to=20other=20disabilities=20or=20 inappropriate=20to a=20given=20situation.=20=20Sincerely,=20Bridgit=20Kuenning-Pollpeter=20Rea= d=20my=20 blog=20at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/=20"History=20is=20 not=20what happened;=20history=20is=20what=20was=20written=20down."=20The=20Expected=20= One-=20 Kathleen McGowan=20Message:=207=20Date:=20Fri,=2018=20Nov=202011=2013:26:31=20-0700= =20From:=20 Marc Workman =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20 Students mailing=20list=20=20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Blindnes= s=20 versus other=20minority=20groups=20Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com>=20Content-Type:=20 text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii=20Carly=20wrote,=20How=20can=20facial=20expressions=20an= d=20 other=20body language=20convey=20meaning=20if=20they=20are=20not=20naturally,=20ocuring?= =20For=20 this reason I=20don't=20see=20a=20reason=20to=20sort=20of=20put=20on=20nonverbal,=20exp= ression=20if,=20 behind=20it there=20is=20little,=20meaning?=20I=20want=20to=20take=20Carly's=20point=20= further=20 and=20suggest that=20pressuring=20blind=20people=20to=20look=20and=20act=20like=20others= =20is=20in=20 itself wrong.=20=20I'm=20not=20suggesting=20there=20is=20no=20value=20to=20it,=20n= or=20am=20I=20 saying=20it should=20never=20be=20done,=20but=20it=20makes=20me=20uncomfortable.=20=20T= he=20subject=20 of=20this thread=20is=20comparing=20blindness=20to=20other=20minorities.=20=20I=20thi= nk=20 there's=20a parallel=20between=20pressuring=20blind=20people=20to=20look=20and=20act=20= like=20 everyone else and=20things=20that=20some=20minorities=20used=20to=20do=20and=20still=20do= =20for=20 similar reasons.=20=20In=20the=20past,=20among=20African=20Americans,=20there=20exi= sted=20the=20 practice of=20skin=20bleaching=20and=20hair=20straightening=20for=20the=20purpose=20= of=20 appearing=20less black=20and/or=20more=20white.=20=20I=20can't=20give=20evidence=20to=20show= =20how=20 common=20this was,=20but=20Malcolm=20X=20talked=20about=20trying=20to=20remove=20the=20ki= nk=20from=20 his=20hair himself=20and=20finding=20it=20a=20physically=20and=20emotionally=20painful= =20 process. There are=20also=20surgeries=20performed=20to=20give=20people=20of=20East=20Asian= =20descent=20 more "white=20looking"=20eyes=20and=20Jews=20more=20"white=20looking"=20noses.=20= =20These=20 are=20just a couple=20of=20examples.=20=20Pressuring=20minorities=20to=20adopt=20the=20d= ominant=20 group's style=20of=20dress,=20gate,=20diction,=20body=20language,=20etc=20also=20of= ten=20 happens.=20=20I hope=20we=20can=20agree=20that=20this=20is=20at=20the=20very=20least=20unfo= rtunate.=20=20 There=20may be psychological=20and=20other=20explanations=20for=20why=20this=20occurs,=20b= ut=20 feeling pressured=20to=20get=20a=20nose=20job=20or=20to=20bleach=20your=20skin=20so= =20that=20you=20 look=20more like=20one=20particular=20group=20in=20society=20is=20problematic=20to=20sa= y=20the=20 least.=20=20So what's=20the=20difference=20between=20these=20cases=20and=20pressuring=20a= =20blind=20 person=20to adopt=20the=20behavioural=20habits,=20facial=20expressions,=20body=20langua= ge=20 etc=20of some sighted=20people?=20You=20might=20say=20that=20we=20live=20in=20a=20sighted= =20world=20and=20 so=20we have=20to=20adapt.=20=20There=20is=20something=20to=20this,=20but=20I=20won= der=20if=20it=20 would=20be equally=20acceptable=20to=20say=20we=20live=20in=20a=20white-dominated=20wo= rld=20so=20 non-whites have=20to=20adapt.=20=20It=20may=20be=20the=20case=20that=20blind=20people= =20who=20don't=20 "look blind" are=20more=20successful=20and=20integrate=20better,=20and=20it=20also=20may= =20be=20that non-whites=20who=20look=20and=20act=20white=20are=20more=20successful=20and= =20 integrate better, but=20in=20neither=20case=20is=20it=20just=20that=20the=20minorities=20need= =20to=20assume=20 the dominant=20groups=20characteristics=20in=20order=20to=20be=20successful.=20= =20What=20 ultimately needs=20to=20happen=20is=20not=20that=20blind=20people=20begin=20to=20look= =20and=20act=20 like sighted people,=20but=20that=20we=20all=20become=20more=20accepting=20of=20differen= ces=20that=20 are arbitrary=20and=20irrelevant.=20=20Most,=20if=20not=20all,=20so=20called=20= blindisms=20 are irrelevant,=20and=20I=20see=20no=20more=20reason=20to=20stamp=20them=20out= =20than=20I=20do=20 for trying to=20eliminate=20various=20differences=20in=20behaviour=20and=20appearance= =20 possessed=20by other=20minority=20groups.=20=20Cheers, _______________________________________________=20nabs-l=20mailing=20 list nabs-l at nfbnet.org=20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org=20To unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20account=20= info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________=20nabs-l=20mailing=20 list nabs-l at nfbnet.org=20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org=20To unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20account=20= info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40ea rthlink..net References: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> <7356746F11904E1B967ED02ADB2ACB6C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, I can comment on this from various points of view. From what I've heard the new Verizon IPhone is the most accessible phone offered by Verizon. Since you said you don't want to do that I would suggest going with the Haven. Before I got the Haven I had the Envy 2 which is not as accessible as the haven. Many of the menues aren't read including many of the features you listed in your original post. The haven I agree with the others could be improved, but nothing's perfect. As for the speech it is the voice command speech voice which is a female voice. Hope this answers your questions, but if you have more that I can answer let me know=) Justin On 11/19/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > I have a Tracfone, that was actually one of the first phones to come out. > I want a totally new phone, with actual ringtones, as opposed to > music, that sounds like it comes from a battery-opperated hand-held > game. > The only problem is that the newer Tracfones don't have large enough > buttons, so I can tell them apart. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Joshua, >> When your phone contract expires, you can upgrade. If you have verizon, >> seems like many like the haven. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 5:10 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] verizon phones >> >> I'm interested in accessible phones too! >> I hate my outtdated Trakfone! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I’m planning to get a verizon >>> phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but >>> I >>> don’t care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. >>> I’d like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if >>> possible. >>> >>> So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don’t know >>> if >>> they still are produced. >>> >>> What accessible phones do you have and like? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Ashley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 01:44:02 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:44:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: <4ec84e93.e426340a.230e.1c5c@mx.google.com> References: <4ec84e93.e426340a.230e.1c5c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9EB11EA5234244CA94ADB542924019E8@OwnerPC> That is a problem with blind and sighted alike. I can't smile a good smile just because someone tells me to for a picture. It usually looks like what it is, forced. However sighted people have the same problems many of my friends expressed this problem. I think thinking a private thought about something funny to you is great if it gets you to smile a real smile. It doesn't really matter if others think it's funny if you do and it gets you to smile when the camera flashes Andi. -----Original Message----- From: vejas Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions I don't know if any of you have this problem, but I have trouble smiling on camera. I don't know-I just can't always get myself to do it, but then when something isn't funny sometimes I do smile, and I might be thinking about something which really isn't funny to someone else. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Molloy wrote: Patrick, Right. Facial expressions are often natural. They reflect our mood. No one taught me to look sad, happy, worried, annoyed, etc, it just happens if I feel that way. But some totally blind people seem so expressionless, and I don't understand why, because like you said, facial expressions are genetically encoded. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Molloy Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Bridgit, I liked what you said, but I think you should know that there are some facial expressions that blind people don't have to learn. For instance, a smile is genetically encoded in everybody. We don't need sighted people to tell us how to do that. I think it's best to start with what blind people already know, then find a trusted sighted friend or family member and talk to them about nonverbal communication. As I say, we really don't have far to go, because there are genetic codes for a lot of these facial expressions. It's just a matter of learning to use them and practicing them. Patrick On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: that type of attitude won't get you a job or friends. Its not about fitting into a box, its about learning appropriate communication behaviors to get along in the world. If I decided to live in France and work there, I'd learn French culture, ways of greeting one another, personal space, and other customs and would also learn what was deemed offensive there. So in our culture here, I'll want to learn the same things only differently since most people learn by observation. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Carly Mihalakis Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Good afternoon, Ashley I think, What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes upon which are plastered identifiers like "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People ought to feel they can just do what feels right, and comfortable and not be pressured to shead some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he doesn't happen to have so-called cog native impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a culture learn body language and facial expressions from observing others; our culture emphasises personal space, shaking hands to greet, and eye contact just as some examples. Blind and low vision people won?�t see it, but if someone works with us, its still a learned behavior; we just learn in a different way. I think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking hands are natural since I learned early on as did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became more automatic. I also like your comment that we should try to extinguish behaviors associated with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is one of them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural to learn something now; I could do it, but it would probably be stiffer and not as natural like if I learned gestures. What I do though in a presentation is look around the room from left to right; speakers to do this to get attention and establish themselves before talking to a group; I do it even though I cannot see a lot, especially toward the back of the room. I can also say yes or no with my head because I was taught early on. But other nonverbals such as winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with the hand were not taught and I think I'd be a little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still it would be good to try and learn. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body language from observing others. Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, through learned behavior. It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned in a nonvisual manner. And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 From: Marc Workman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by other minority groups. Cheers, _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40ea rthlink..net References: <4ec84e93.e426340a.230e.1c5c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <89269B004C944DC38E78975955DD69EC@OwnerPC> Hi Vejas, I have trouble smiling for camera too. It comes out more like a lopsided grin. If you prend to say the word peace, your lips form a smile sort of. That helps some. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: vejas Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions I don't know if any of you have this problem, but I have trouble smiling on camera. I don't know-I just can't always get myself to do it, but then when something isn't funny sometimes I do smile, and I might be thinking about something which really isn't funny to someone else. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Molloy wrote: Patrick, Right. Facial expressions are often natural. They reflect our mood. No one taught me to look sad, happy, worried, annoyed, etc, it just happens if I feel that way. But some totally blind people seem so expressionless, and I don't understand why, because like you said, facial expressions are genetically encoded. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Molloy Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Bridgit, I liked what you said, but I think you should know that there are some facial expressions that blind people don't have to learn. For instance, a smile is genetically encoded in everybody. We don't need sighted people to tell us how to do that. I think it's best to start with what blind people already know, then find a trusted sighted friend or family member and talk to them about nonverbal communication. As I say, we really don't have far to go, because there are genetic codes for a lot of these facial expressions. It's just a matter of learning to use them and practicing them. Patrick On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: that type of attitude won't get you a job or friends. Its not about fitting into a box, its about learning appropriate communication behaviors to get along in the world. If I decided to live in France and work there, I'd learn French culture, ways of greeting one another, personal space, and other customs and would also learn what was deemed offensive there. So in our culture here, I'll want to learn the same things only differently since most people learn by observation. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Carly Mihalakis Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Good afternoon, Ashley I think, What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes upon which are plastered identifiers like "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People ought to feel they can just do what feels right, and comfortable and not be pressured to shead some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he doesn't happen to have so-called cog native impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a culture learn body language and facial expressions from observing others; our culture emphasises personal space, shaking hands to greet, and eye contact just as some examples. Blind and low vision people won?�t see it, but if someone works with us, its still a learned behavior; we just learn in a different way. I think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking hands are natural since I learned early on as did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became more automatic. I also like your comment that we should try to extinguish behaviors associated with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is one of them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural to learn something now; I could do it, but it would probably be stiffer and not as natural like if I learned gestures. What I do though in a presentation is look around the room from left to right; speakers to do this to get attention and establish themselves before talking to a group; I do it even though I cannot see a lot, especially toward the back of the room. I can also say yes or no with my head because I was taught early on. But other nonverbals such as winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with the hand were not taught and I think I'd be a little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still it would be good to try and learn. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body language from observing others. Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, through learned behavior. It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned in a nonvisual manner. And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 From: Marc Workman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by other minority groups. Cheers, _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40ea rthlink..net References: <4ec84e93.e426340a.230e.1c5c@mx.google.com> <9EB11EA5234244CA94ADB542924019E8@OwnerPC> Message-ID: yep, mine looks forced too, unless I was laughing about something prior to it. -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:44 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions That is a problem with blind and sighted alike. I can't smile a good smile just because someone tells me to for a picture. It usually looks like what it is, forced. However sighted people have the same problems many of my friends expressed this problem. I think thinking a private thought about something funny to you is great if it gets you to smile a real smile. It doesn't really matter if others think it's funny if you do and it gets you to smile when the camera flashes Andi. -----Original Message----- From: vejas Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions I don't know if any of you have this problem, but I have trouble smiling on camera. I don't know-I just can't always get myself to do it, but then when something isn't funny sometimes I do smile, and I might be thinking about something which really isn't funny to someone else. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Molloy wrote: Patrick, Right. Facial expressions are often natural. They reflect our mood. No one taught me to look sad, happy, worried, annoyed, etc, it just happens if I feel that way. But some totally blind people seem so expressionless, and I don't understand why, because like you said, facial expressions are genetically encoded. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Molloy Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Bridgit, I liked what you said, but I think you should know that there are some facial expressions that blind people don't have to learn. For instance, a smile is genetically encoded in everybody. We don't need sighted people to tell us how to do that. I think it's best to start with what blind people already know, then find a trusted sighted friend or family member and talk to them about nonverbal communication. As I say, we really don't have far to go, because there are genetic codes for a lot of these facial expressions. It's just a matter of learning to use them and practicing them. Patrick On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: that type of attitude won't get you a job or friends. Its not about fitting into a box, its about learning appropriate communication behaviors to get along in the world. If I decided to live in France and work there, I'd learn French culture, ways of greeting one another, personal space, and other customs and would also learn what was deemed offensive there. So in our culture here, I'll want to learn the same things only differently since most people learn by observation. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Carly Mihalakis Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Good afternoon, Ashley I think, What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes upon which are plastered identifiers like "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People ought to feel they can just do what feels right, and comfortable and not be pressured to shead some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he doesn't happen to have so-called cog native impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a culture learn body language and facial expressions from observing others; our culture emphasises personal space, shaking hands to greet, and eye contact just as some examples. Blind and low vision people won?�t see it, but if someone works with us, its still a learned behavior; we just learn in a different way. I think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking hands are natural since I learned early on as did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became more automatic. I also like your comment that we should try to extinguish behaviors associated with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is one of them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural to learn something now; I could do it, but it would probably be stiffer and not as natural like if I learned gestures. What I do though in a presentation is look around the room from left to right; speakers to do this to get attention and establish themselves before talking to a group; I do it even though I cannot see a lot, especially toward the back of the room. I can also say yes or no with my head because I was taught early on. But other nonverbals such as winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with the hand were not taught and I think I'd be a little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still it would be good to try and learn. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body language from observing others. Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, through learned behavior. It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned in a nonvisual manner. And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 From: Marc Workman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable. The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often happens. I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance possessed by other minority groups. Cheers, _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40ea rthlink..net References: <4ec5ce39.e426340a.3469.12fa@mx.google.com> <016001cca669$628741b0$2795c510$@comcast.net> Message-ID: it is usable. My wife is a jfw user as well, and is fairly happy with it. It is available from nch. www.nch.com.au I believe. There is a trial version and then it must be purchased for about 40 bucks. She did need some sighted assistance on the install though. That made neither one of us very happy. I have heard that earlier versions of the producvt are even more speech-friendly. However, I do not know that firsthand. One can also purchase a pkg of the software, foot peddle,and headphones together and save a little money that way. Also, if you wish, you can purchase differing levels of tech support. This ranges from web q and a, to actually talking with a live person. This is a charged service though and is for a specified period of time. -----Original Message----- From: Amy Sabo Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 9:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Hello there, Thanks for sharing this information. Is this software accessible with jfw or not? And, where can someone get this software on the net and, is it free or do you have to purchase it for a reasonable fee? This sounds cool and, I would love to check this out... thanks for the information and, I will talk to you all soon! Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren Wakefield Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 8:25 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio my wife is starting to work with a program called "express-scribe". It works with a foot pedle which allows you to start stop forward and rewind thew file. One can also adjust the speed of the file. She says it is mostly speech friendly. If you would like to talk more with her about this write her offlist at: proverbs1423 at mchsi.com Loren Wakefield -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Hi Amy, Is Cool Edit free? If so, I'd be interested in downloading it! By the way, I think Elizabeth was trying to transcribe an audio recording into text (like a transcript,) not edit the audio recording and keep it audio. That's at least how I took her email. But only she knows for sure what she intended to do with that "confidential" recording. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" Can someone, David or someone else who has the recording, just send me the file attached in an email so I can listen to it? Looks like it will be a while before the site is relaunched. David, I understand that you have many things to run, so I'm not getting impatient with you. You've got Audio Access FM to run, and you're doing a great job with that! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 03:20:19 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 22:20:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4ec8721c.a524340a.6f1e.28b1@mx.google.com> Absolutely right! Good luck, Joshua! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi Joshua and everyone, I am in 8th grade and am mainstreamed in the public school system here in Carroll County, Maryland. I'm also an anchor on my school's TV-LIKE morning announcements program. So, one day during Meet the Blind Month when I was on the program as an anchor, I made an announcement on the air regarding Meet the Blind Month and its purpose, to "educate the sighted public about the truth about blindness, and our real capabilities." I also encouraged them to ask me any questions they had about blindness, no matter what it was. I wouldn't be offended. I closed the announcement with a slogan that my TVI thought up; "I encourage all of you to open your mind and meet the blind!" This has started a great opportunity for me to educate my peers, and for them to openly ask me questions. My family and I also do a program for my teachers each year, in which we do a blindness simulations where the teachers have to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich blindfolded. This also helps them get an glimpse into my world, if you will. I'd love to hear what you guys did for Meet the Blind Month, if anything! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, psychologists have identified specific factors in the social environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable as whites if the social environment supports their success. We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind people function requires some creative thinking and mental flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on board for the environmental modifications we need to be equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes will give us equal opportunity. Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. Best, Arielle On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: David, With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those of us whom such logic doesn't work for? I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else go nuts. *grin* Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I hope the analogy is not too remote. My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change to happen and take the steps to start it. Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. anyone with me? The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we could come up with some crazy way to get it going. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: Arielle: I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! Dave At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind people to think about. Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority groups in this country historically and in the present. More than that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination against other minority groups. Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I said about you being blind was very different from what you said about my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference here? I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get members of the public to see this? Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? I look forward to the discussion. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi %40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 03:20:22 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 22:20:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] test Message-ID: <4ec8721f.a524340a.6f1e.28b3@mx.google.com> Got=20this! Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20 If you have a BrailleNote, there is a great Nemeth tutorial which you can download from license.humanware.com. There are also some great reference sheets for Nemeth, which include all the symbols you need. You can find these sheets at: ?www.tsbvi.edu/nemeth-code/1524-nemeth-code-reference-sheets?Fo r more resources, just Google Nemeth Braille Code cheat sheets and you'll find a lot of links. I did this for one of the parents here in Maryland, and I found a lot more than I knew was out there. Hope this helps! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jewel Dave, we've been waiting since like August! I understand David has a bunch of stuff to take care of with his running of AudioAccessFM, but something really must be going on here, to have the Web page not work for four months, even after a change of Web hosting providers and like three emails to the list from the Webmaster himself saying that it's back up. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews nfb.org is back up. I don't know about Newsline. I got an email from them last week saying they were still working on maintenance. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" Got it! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miranda Morse" Didn't think of them. There's probably some information there as well. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ---- Original Message ------ From: Joseph Lee Hi Jim, I use m.facebook.com for everything, as I think it is much more accessible and easier to use than the regular site. However, I didn't think you could upload photos in an accessible way with Facebook Mobile, nor did I really care. I do have a lot of sighted friends, but they probably understand why the only photo on my page is my profile pic! * Smile! How do you upload photos with Facebook Mobile and JAWS? Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Portillo" Hi=20Ashley, The=20professor=20may=20know=20more=20than=20you=20think.=20=20Most=20keyst= rokes=20that=20 you=20use=20with=20JAWS=20are=20actually=20keystrokes=20based=20into=20Wind= ows,=20and=20 therefore=20can=20be=20used=20on=20any=20computer,=20JAWS=20or=20not.=20=20= The=20only=20 JAWS-EXCLUSIVE=20keystrokes,=20to=20the=20best=20of=20my=20knowledge,=20are= =20those=20 which=20start=20with=20the=20Insert=20or=20JAWS=20key.=20=20My=20school=20r= ecently=20took=20 a=20field=20trip=20to=20our=20county's=20career=20and=20tech=20school,=20an= d=20I=20was=20in=20 the=20computer=20tech=20group,=20in=20which=20we=20got=20to=20do=20some=20h= ands-on=20 things=20with=20programming=20a=20simple=20operation.=20=20We=20were=20usin= g=20PC's,=20 which=20of=20course=20were=20without=20JAWS=20or=20any=20other=20screen=20r= eader.=20=20My=20 I=20A=20was=20there=20and=20was=20my=20human=20JAWS,=20if=20you=20will,=20b= ut=20I=20was=20able=20 to=20operate=20the=20computer=20pretty=20successfully=20using=20the=20keyst= rokes=20 I=20already=20knew,=20as=20long=20as=20she=20told=20me=20where=20I=20am=20o= n=20the=20screen=20 after=20hitting=20those=20keystrokes.=20=20So=20all=20the=20keystrokes=20yo= u=20use=20 everyday,=20like=20Alt=20Tab=20to=20go=20between=20windows=20you=20have=20o= pened,=20Alt=20 F=204=20to=20close=20a=20window,=20the=20Windows=20key=20to=20get=20to=20yo= ur=20start=20menu,=20 Alt=20D=20(in=20Internet=20Explorer)=20to=20get=20to=20the=20address=20bar,= =20the=20arrow=20 keys=20to=20move=20the=20cursor=20and=20scroll=20up=20and=20down=20the=20sc= reen,=20and=20of=20 course=20good=20old=20Enter=20to=20select=20a=20menu=20option=20or=20"click= "=20on=20a=20 link=20or=20button=20on=20a=20Web=20page,=20etc,=20etc,=20are=20Windows=20k= eystrokes.=20=20 Hope=20this=20helps!=20Good=20luck! Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote=20Apex =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20 That's because it's reset itself, and you're getting all the messages it hasn't sent yet. That's just my educated guess. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: I got that message too. They're probably reconstructing the site or something. -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:54 AM To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org ; nabs-l at nfbnet.org ; gui-talk at nfbnet.org ; NFBWaTlk at NNFBNet.org Subject: [nabs-l] NFB website and related sites temporarily unavailable? hello everybody, I'm not sure what's up with teh NFB website. I tried to go to it and I got an error page saying, "page not found." this also impacted the NFB newsline (r) web site, and NFB Newsline Online Website as well. If you know when the web sites will be restored please let me know, otherwise, just a heads up for you. Sincerely, Humberto _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 03:20:32 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 22:20:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <4ec8722a.a524340a.6f1e.28c1@mx.google.com> Hi Tara, That's a good point. However, I'm not sure if the class is needed. I say this because, especially in the case of those of us (like myself) who are totally blind or only have light perception, we would only get one side of the body language; that is, the body language that we display to sighted people. While this is important, especially in how we present ourselves for things like job interviews and such, we'll have no way of knowing what body language sighted people are conveying to us, no matter what classes on the subject we take. This is because, simply, we can't see the body language! So, in short, by taking the suggested body language course, we'd only get to use half of the information taught, because we can't discern what sighted people are conveying to us via body language, and therefore can't react to it. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Tara Annis I saw that, and accepted the request! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rania Ismail CMT" wrote: I know that ACB radio advertises about products and services for the blind. Alena On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Jewel wrote: Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I wanted to get some ideas from you all. How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the audience, and what format they are in? Thhank you for any input you can provide. ~Jewel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts 2282%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40 hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 03:20:40 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 22:20:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <4ec87231.a524340a.6f1e.28c7@mx.google.com> I have never understood the difference between making eye contact and facing the person you're talking to, and have just faced the person and they're usually fine with that. How do you make eye contact and know nonvisually that you are in fact making eye contact? I'd be interested to hear your ideas! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andi" References: <4ec87214.a524340a.6f1e.28a8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <92C522B2C9C042D086FBBC199AEEDC69@HUMBERTOAVILA> Hello, this is so interesting! Which keysoft version is this talking about, and which model? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:20 PM To: jsotwel at carrollk12.org; tlpickrel at hotmail.com; NFB NABS list Subject: [nabs-l] fw: [braillenote] KeyWord: Nemeth is indirectly supportedfor Braille documents! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ---- Original Message ------ From: Joseph Lee Hi Marsha, Yes, I think we get too judgmental sometimes, and forget that that's not at all the purpose of our organization. I'd just like to advise everyone to get all the facts before passing judgment, if you pass judgment at all, which isn't always a good idea. Maybe someone has another disability, like Marsha; maybe they don't have all the skills you have; maybe they just don't like the stairs or something. Even the best travellers have to ask people for directions sometimes, and that doesn't make them any less of an independent person. I recall something that a mentor of mine, our own Darian Smith, told me at the LAW Program when I was lost in the Jernigan Institute and had no sighted people to ask nor was my mom there at the time; perhaps asking questions and directions of anyone, blind or sighted, makes the asker an even more independent person, because they're not afraid to speak up and ask, which is a form of advocating for yourself. At the time, I didn't understand this and replied, "Huh? But isn't independence doing things by yourself?" He told me that nobody can do everything totally independently. "The NFB is big on making blind people as independent as we can, but we also understand that you're always going to need to ask for help sometimes." This made a big impact on me. When I first started to get involved in the NFB, as I felt at that particular time in the hallway of the Jernigan Institute, I felt embarrassed about asking people for directions, as I thought that's not something a good Federationist should do, and the adults wouldn't want me to be asking people for help. But what Darian told me made it all click; yeah, we're going to need to ask help sometimes. It's just part of life, and if somebody (in the NFB or otherwise) judges you about it, it's their wrongdoing, not yours. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marsha Drenth" Got this as well. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" References: <4ec8722a.a524340a.6f1e.28c1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi everyone. This line of discussion is very interesting to me because I am only beginning to work on these things. I am a vocal performance major, which means I must be expressive when I sing. The "performance" part of my major is the part I have the most difficulties with. :) Last year I did my candidacy for the department, and I was told everything was wonderful, except for my ability to move and act on stage. I have been working hard ever since to improve in this area. My vocal coach and I are working very hard. She is one of the only teachers I have who will be honest about the way I look. It's amazing the things we take for granted as blind people. For example, until a couple weeks ago, I didn't know that when I cast my eyes down even slightly, it looks like they are closed. This amazed me. I know that my eyes look like this naturally, but I didn't realize it was this bad. I feel like this and other honest points about my appearance will make me a better performer. I know that as a blind person and a guide dog user, people are watching me. People are looking at the way I work my dog, and they are watching how I walk around and navigate. I am used to this. it is a way of life, but I believe that people will leave me alone if I act confident and look like I know what I'm doing. I've been told this, and yes, it doesn't always work for us because we are blind, but it's somewhere to start. If I act and look lost and/or confused, the sighted people around me will easily perceive that and act accordingly. If you want to play a game to see how effective eye contact and body language really are, sit by a door or on a seat in a hall that is moderately or highly populated. When people walk past you, turn in their direction and smile like you are going to say something. I promise that the person in question will say hi 9 times out of ten. I've never tried this off campus though, so I don't know how well it would work somewhere where people don't me as well. I used this game to practice my eye contact. I have enough vision to look up at people in their face, but I cannot make eye contact. Just a little idea... This is a great discussion. On 11/19/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Tara, > > That's a good point. However, I'm not sure if the class is > needed. I say this because, especially in the case of those of > us (like myself) who are totally blind or only have light > perception, we would only get one side of the body language; that > is, the body language that we display to sighted people. While > this is important, especially in how we present ourselves for > things like job interviews and such, we'll have no way of knowing > what body language sighted people are conveying to us, no matter > what classes on the subject we take. This is because, simply, we > can't see the body language! So, in short, by taking the > suggested body language course, we'd only get to use half of the > information taught, because we can't discern what sighted people > are conveying to us via body language, and therefore can't react > to it. > > Chris > > "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The > real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that > exists. If a blind person has the proper training and > opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical > nuisance." > -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, > 1968-1986 > > P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired > youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through > providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and > conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. > For more information about the Foundation and to support our > work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! > > Sent from my BrailleNote Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tara Annis To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Date sent: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:20:31 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their > feelings across to the sighted is to understand what is > considered ignorance and what is considered outright teasing and > cruelty in public. Many of the meanest things are just said with > one word and a lot of body language. Many people who hate > blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty in > their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, > but some, do lack discernment in this area, especially if they > are blind from birth and a sighted person does not take the time > to explain nonverbal communication. I think the first step would > be for an honest sighted person to follow a blind person around > and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, so that > the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one > of the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are > not attempting to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through > body language, like rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use > nonverbal communication to show when they are irritated by > another person. If the person continues to be annoying, the > person will then use verbal communication. That is why sighted > people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their > anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a > class where advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since > currently it seems there are just the basics taught, like > facing the person you are talking to and shaking hands. There is > not a class in how to display the various ways of shooing > levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, > somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that > sometimes it is necessary to actively create facial expressions > and body movements, as opposed to letting one's body language > depict their true feelings. Personally, I was surprised at the > amount of communication that is displayed nonverbally, that > sighted people watch me from across a large college campus, or > from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from > my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I > am more comfortable around sighted people, and am in control > of getting my feelings across. The great thing about learning > all this stuff is that I have seen the amount of ignorance I > faced by sighted people diminish significantly. It is a 50/50 > situation: blind people need to do their half of helping get > rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing to do > their half. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding Eyes for the Blind "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 03:20:13 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 22:20:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <4ec87217.a524340a.6f1e.28aa@mx.google.com> Great! For those of you who haven't done this, I hope you get some ideas and that we get some ideas from all of you! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Molloy wrote: Hi Chris, I really like your idea. I think that also shows your teachers how you do things independently! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Hi Joshua and everyone, I am in 8th grade and am mainstreamed in the public school system here in Carroll County, Maryland. I'm also an anchor on my school's TV-LIKE morning announcements program. So, one day during Meet the Blind Month when I was on the program as an anchor, I made an announcement on the air regarding Meet the Blind Month and its purpose, to "educate the sighted public about the truth about blindness, and our real capabilities." I also encouraged them to ask me any questions they had about blindness, no matter what it was. I wouldn't be offended. I closed the announcement with a slogan that my TVI thought up; "I encourage all of you to open your mind and meet the blind!" This has started a great opportunity for me to educate my peers, and for them to openly ask me questions. My family and I also do a program for my teachers each year, in which we do a blindness simulations where the teachers have to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich blindfolded. This also helps them get an glimpse into my world, if you will. I'd love to hear what you guys did for Meet the Blind Month, if anything! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hi all, These are all great points. Thanks for humoring me with this discussion. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it important. As some of you may know, there was a time not too long ago when African Americans were perceived to be less intelligent than white Americans. In fact, there was a brief scientific movement called "race science" to try and quantify this intelligence difference and link it to racial differences in brain structure. Of course, this belief has been heavily challenged and is no longer popular. Additionally, psychologists have identified specific factors in the social environment that can lead to racial differences in performance on standardized tests that were once mistaken for differences in intelligence. For example, questions on IQ tests are sometimes worded in a biased fashion to favor people from white American backgrounds, and sometimes fears about being stereotyped can cause people to perform worse on tests than they are actually capable of. Because African Americans were stereotyped as less intelligent, this stereotype itself can lead to poor test performance. As we all know, there are lots of beliefs out there, among the sighted public, blindness professionals and blind people ourselves, about the inferiority of blindness and the many deficits and lack of ability we have. We know that a big part of our inequality comes from the social environment-parents and teachers who have low expectations, lack of instruction in Braille and other blindness skills, and lack of accessibility-and only a small part of it comes directly from the condition of blindness. I dream that in time, hopefully in our lifetime, this will become the widely accepted view, and the majority of the sighted public will understand that we can be equally successful as our sighted counterparts under the right social conditions, just like most people (at least most educated people) now understand that African Americans are just as intellectually capable as whites if the social environment supports their success. We definitely have a long way to go in this regard and it will be difficult to drive this point home. As others have said, some sighted people just don't know what our capabilities are. I think that in our culture there is a lot of focus on vision as a major sense, and people assume that vision loss is invariably a deficit. It explains why literature geared toward parents of blind children often highlights the fact that 80% of what sighted children learn is learned visually, and it explains why blindness professionals are often so unwilling to teach Braille and prefer to focus on vision-based literacy. People have trouble believing that all the other senses combined plus some mental effort can make up for loss of vision. People's beliefs about the primacy of vision for functioning are powerful, often unconscious, and are rarely challenged-because we are a minority, and because these beliefs are difficult to challenge. Truly understanding how blind people function requires some creative thinking and mental flexibility-something I frankly don't think some people possess or are willing to engage. And unfortunately, it is hard to get people on board for the environmental modifications we need to be equal-accessibility etc.-unless they truly believe that these changes will give us equal opportunity. Jedi, you make some interesting points about how we should start standing up to the sighted. I agree that we are often conditioned to accept treatment we shouldn't be accepting, and that the errant behavior of the sighted so often goes unchallenged. The problem is that I fear that attempts to stand up for ourselves will be misinterpreted. The treatment we get differs from treatment to other minority groups in that we are rarely treated with violence or outright hostility, but so often discriminated against under an illusion of kindness. Too often, an honest response to this kindness is simply shrugged off as rudeness or ingratitude instead of really being given proper attention. For example, when I was a teenager, I often refused offers of "help" from people I didn't know well and would let people know I didn't like it when they grabbed or manhandled me around. I am told that several of my schoolmates thought of me as a b**. I don't think they ever actually thought about changing their behavior toward me, but just wrote me off as a rude person. So I definitely think we should make an effort to communicate frankly and directly with the sighted, but I'm unsure of how to do it in a way that is accepted in dialogue rather than just dismissed. I would be interested in learning more about the dialogue strategies you mention. Best, Arielle On 11/4/11, Jedi wrote: David, With all due respect, I think that's exactly the logic that rewards us for keeping our mouths shut thus maintaining the status quo. When we say to ourselves "Sighted people don't mean to be malicious," we somehow send ourselves, and each other, the second half of the message which ultimately says "So lay off," "No need to worry about it," or ""It's no big deal." If that works for you, great. But what about those of us whom such logic doesn't work for? I tried to soothe myself with the notion that the sighted just don't know better. And for me, that made the problem all the worse because I started to think that there was something wrong with me for feeling upset by what the sighted person had said or done to begin with. I started questioning the validity of my own experience as the person to whom ignorant comments are made and ignorant actions are pressed upon. Like I said in a previous post, I had to rearrange my thinking or else go nuts. *grin* Yes, the sighted don't intend to be malicious, but the fact is that what they say and do is still harmful. Humans never meant to be malicious toward Earth, but our actions over the last hundred years or so have badly depleted our natural resources and will continue to do so until we realize that, despite our lack of bad intensions, we're harming something that's as much a part of ourselves as anything. I hope the analogy is not too remote. My bottom line is this. I think it's time to stop excusing the sighted when they treat us in ways that they themselves would never wish to be treated. I think it's time we start alerting ourselves and the rest of the world to the fact that our interpersonal relationships with the sighted public haven't changed as much as we would like them to, and that these interpersonal (and intercultural) relationships are, to a large extent, a huge part of why we have such a high unemployment rate, why we experience discrimination in our recreational and personal lives, and why the public still largely considers us a non-entity in a lot of ways (I think internet accessibility is a great example of this). Yes, what i'm suggesting is, i suppose, quite radical. But I think we can have our cake and eat it, too. I think it's possible to develop excellent interpersonal and intercultural relations with the sighted thereby getting our basic societal needs met. But the first step is realizing that nothing is going to change unless we intend that change to happen and take the steps to start it. Here's what I think we could do to get the ball rolling. I think we need to start publishing another round of Kernel books. I realize we still have a bunch left over from the last set we did, but they are out of date in that they don't address some of the newer issues that have cropped up in the last ten years or so. And frankly, we need fresher faces in these stories. we need more stories from the current generation because that's who will be reading these stories on the sighted end of things. I'm willing to write for the kernel books. anyone with me? The second thing we need to do is to formally teach ourselves how to communicate more effectively with the sighted. Last time, i talked about educating through dialogue rather than dialoguing through education. How is that done, anyway? Well, there are a few ways of going about it and there are some amazing groups and institutions who specialize in teaching people how to communicate based on their experience. I immediately think of the Swil Kanim Foundation, the Institute of Cultural Affairs, and the Center for studies of the Person. All of these entities have trained facilitators who can help groups of us learn how to communicate our experiences more effectively; we could potentially hold encounter groups during our next NFB convention in Dallas. The groups would be small to start out with; maybe twenty to fifty in each. But it's a start. Alternatively, the Federation could start a project wherein some of us volunteer to train as facilitators through one of these entities and then go around from affiliate to affiliate, chapter to chapter, and have these encounter groups locally. What would come out of either approach is a group of people who are more willing to be truthful with the sighted and can do so in a way that's honoring to everyone concerned. Anyway, these are some thoughts I've been playing with for some time, and I'm willing to participate in a project like this, but i'm going to need some help.I've said it before, but I'm interested in hearing from anyone who's also interested in this kind of thing and who think we could come up with some crazy way to get it going. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: Arielle: I think that it is in part that we are a small minority, but the biggest factor is people's ignorance about the capabilities of the blind. When someone shuts their eyes, they don't see how they could do anything, (pun partially intended.) Without training -- which they don't have, they can't imagine how we get around etc. I don't think their statements are malicious, just ignorant! Dave At 10:09 PM 10/31/2011, you wrote: Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate, but I also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as blind people to think about. Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by the blind are similar to or different from those faced by other minority groups in this country historically and in the present. More than that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us as a group in comparison to how they view other minority groups. It has struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us in discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering that this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination against other minority groups. Let me give a concrete example. In his book Freedom for the Blind, Jim Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center and a female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so well, sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment, Mr. Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a philosophy class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are such a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no, what I said about you being blind was very different from what you said about my being a woman. I was just trying to give you a compliment!" Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good, so someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people. To me this sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a woman-but she didn't see it that way. Why not? Is there a difference here? I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views about race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination against racial minorities, women, gays etc. who nonetheless have no qualms about saying negative things about blindness. Like saying blind people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted, etc. They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't understand why I don't like to hear these things. Sometimes family members will make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people. They think they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I don't want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a collective. Yet these same people would never tell an African American that they are "smart for a black person" etc. I remember during the protests against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many people just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could do-and yet an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in our modern society. And finally, in my research, I have observed that the college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a survey that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet would never say such things directly about another minority group-in fact, lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their prejudices, unless it's toward the blind. So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more accurate than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination against the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such a small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the same scale of civil rights activism, etc. to raise people's awareness? Do you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other minorities in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we get members of the public to see this? Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are "dual minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in this country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another? I look forward to the discussion. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi %40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 01:37:37 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:37:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting tolearnnaturalmovementandexpressions In-Reply-To: <2930D295BB1844088443C07657851F84@OwnerPC> References: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05@OwnerPC><2B129BF69EBF4B4993B18C63D716622B@OwnerPC><4A02D34091A5415C990D9848F6884391@OwnerPC> <2930D295BB1844088443C07657851F84@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <212DEDFA3E9047618AC75BF5B9447F54@OwnerPC> I am sorry to hear about your experience with dance. I too have had a few classes I had to drop because of non accommodating instructors, but I was able to pick them back up with diferent instructors. I started dance in 10th grade so I am not as practised as people who started when they were five or so, but I held my own in competitions. I did not stick with it as long as I wanted once I got to college only about two years because I became to busy to keep up with it as well as I would have liked. As far as finding classes you do not need private lessons though they may be more in-depth than a beginners class.I was fortunate to have had a great instructor in high school so my first experience was posative I think that helps. I usually talked with instructors before enrolling in any class, and discussed how I learn in a more hands on way. I gave examples of how I could be taught either by me feeling the other persons movements or them moving me. Sometimes both methods are needed. I also explained that I needed to be shown the little details not just the foot work. I explained that I need to know the placement of each body part, so I wouldn't look like I was half assing it. I said I can understand a lot of what you are saying just by verbal instructions but that I will need hands on instructions for the things I do not understand verbally and it may be as frequent. Then I asked if that instructor would be willing to work with me. Some are not and that is not fun to hear but most people are willing to work with me because they are open to learning new ways of teaching. Blind people are not the only ones who need hands on training. Many sighted people need it to, though it is not as often as we do, but I saw it a lot. I also try to talk to other people who have worked with particular instructors to get a feel for them before my meeting. It is important to speek with them before like I said or you and the instructors will both be in for a surprise. I do this with workout classes at the gym to and most are willing to work with me. As for your balance dance actually helps improve balance at least it did with me. You learn to find your core and center your self. Yoga also helps with balance. However do not let someone tell you, you can not do it because you are blind. There are defenatly things we as blind people can not do, but that list is small and dancing is most defanatly not on the list. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting tolearnnaturalmovementandexpressions Hi, Due to the spelling, I suspected it was a nickname; and I've met more girls/ladies who liked dancing. But yeah guys do it too. Also in the past, its been only girls who spoke up on list regarding dance. You said you liked modern dancing; I have not met a guy who did modern dance, thought it was a girl thing. The others you did: latin ballroom, swing, and hip hop are definitely for both sexes; and yes you need a partner of the opposite sex for some of them. How many years were you on the college dance team? Was your major or minor in performing arts? You're right that colleges offer these types of beginning classes and so does the Y and county recreation centers. Were all your lessons in a class though? I've been discouraged from taking dance in a class. They do it by demonstration and go fast. In a class, the instructor teaches the guy part and the girl part separately and then once you practice it, you have a partner to do it together. I learn a little slower when it comes to gross motor moves and I am not the greatest of following directions of right and left. I've been told I can do it privately by my parents, but that is so expensive. I don't know how much Authur Murray dance studio charges, but its probably a lot. I probably could only afford 4 or five lessons. A blind friend took private tap, and he said it was $75 per lesson. I actually did try a ballroom dance at the university, and it was a disaster; the instructor was rude and did not want to accommodate. me. My vision impairment caused my feet to turn out and I walk with a gait; he said oh you have to put your feet straight to dance and that my balance was an issue. I know it is sometimes, but I said I would be dancing with a partner, and had danced before with people without falling or anything. Anyway, I'd love to try dance again. Glad you liked it and it worked out. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learnnaturalmovementandexpressions Yes I am a girl my name is Adrianne, and Andi is my nick name, it comes from my initials. However just because I did dance, that is not a reason to assume I am a girl. Their were many guys on both my dance teams and you can not do treditional or Lattin ball room or swing with out a partner. Most of the time it is a boy girl thing. Not always but tipically. When I took hip hop the guys outnumbered the girls. Actually men who dance usually get extra sex appeal points in most womens eyes. I recommend dance for everyone male or female. Like I said before it is great for gaining a more natural appearance and it is also a great way to stay in shape. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn naturalmovementandexpressions So you're a girl, Andi? -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movementandexpressions Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:44 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions I danced for many years including ballet, including pointe. It's very true that ballet dancers learn to position, and move, their bodies in inorganic ways. The motion, when done well, is very graceful and fluid, but the process to harness the technique can take years and actually can do quite a number on your body. Though other dance forms like jazz or tap are not quite as unforgiving as ballet, they still require a lot of discipline to do, especially to master. However, if wanting to learn how to move more naturally, dance certainly can help. Many professional athletes take dance, including ballet, in order to move better on the field or pitch or rink or whatever the case may be. I also have a background in theatre and minored in it when at university back in 2000. Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes. Another way to learn a more natural body movement is to take modeling classes. Now, these can cost, but so can dance and acting classes- it's something to invesigate before signing up. Modeling classes will teach you specifically how to walk and how to use your face to relay things. Models on the runway often use an unnatural gate, but in modeling class itself, you learn how to carry yourself meaning you learn how to move in a graceful, fluid manner. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:54:04 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Nov 20 05:51:30 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (SA Mobile) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 23:51:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <4ec8722a.a524340a.6f1e.28c1@mx.google.com> References: <4ec8722a.a524340a.6f1e.28c1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Chris, One can hear the more important body language by listening to vocal direction and resonance; this is how you hear a smile or know if someone's looking down. These are just examples. Paralanguage and other cues often supplement gestures and expressions. As to direct eye contact, it is actually seldom done even in the States except for very brief periods. So just facing someone is quite sufficient in our culture. Respectfully Submitted Sent from my iPhone On 19/11/2011, at 9:20 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Tara, > > That's a good point. However, I'm not sure if the class is needed. I say this because, especially in the case of those of us (like myself) who are totally blind or only have light perception, we would only get one side of the body language; that is, the body language that we display to sighted people. While this is important, especially in how we present ourselves for things like job interviews and such, we'll have no way of knowing what body language sighted people are conveying to us, no matter what classes on the subject we take. This is because, simply, we can't see the body language! So, in short, by taking the suggested body language course, we'd only get to use half of the information taught, because we can't discern what sighted people are conveying to us via body language, and therefore can't react to it. > > Chris > > "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." > -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 > > P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! > > Sent from my BrailleNote Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tara Annis To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Date sent: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:20:31 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings across to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and what is considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the meanest things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. Many people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty in their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but some, do lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth and a sighted person does not take the time to explain nonverbal communication. I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow a blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one of the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not attempting to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use nonverbal communication to show when they are irritated by another person. If the person continues to be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication. That is why sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a class where advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since currently it seems there are just the basics taught, like facing the person you are talking to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display the various ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it is necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is displayed nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of getting my feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff is that I have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their half of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing to do their half. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 03:20:47 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 22:20:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook question regarding photo albums Message-ID: <4ec87238.a524340a.6f1e.28ce@mx.google.com> I think I heard something about the Federation working with Facebook, but I can't swear to that, and would need a confirmation from someone else. Nicole, the mobile site is very accessible, although it doesn't have some of the features that the regular site has. But it has most of the features of Facebook, and I don't really need the ones that aren't in there. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" wrote: I have not created an album since the last website change, so this may not be as accesible since I have noticed a decrease in accessibility in other aspects of the website, but I will tell you what I have done. The best case scenario is to know what order your pictures are in. I have uploaded pictures to my computer and had someone rename the pictures with enough of a description so I would know what they are. Then, you create the album. You have to enter a title, and then on the next page, you will be able to upload pictures. You need to use the simple uploader. You will only be able to upload 5 pictures at a time, but it is the accessible option. After uploading 5 pictures, they wil show up with a coupld of check boxes like, make this the album cover, or delete this picture, and there will be an edit box to write a picture caption. I typically ignore all of this stuff, and click the link to upload more pictures until I have uploaded all of the pictures for an album. The pictures will appear in the order in which you uploaded them, so after I am finished, I return to the folder where my pictures are stored, and use the title of each picture as a guide to write the caption for that picture. You can then choose your album cover and finish. There is not a way to tag people, so I either get someone to help me or encourage my friends to tag themselves. I know uploading iPhone pictures is accessible, so that could be another method. I don't think you can rename your pictures, so if you're uploading multiple pictures, you'll have to keep track of which picture number corresponds to each picture. I hope this helps. I really enjoy making albums and sharing my pictures although I don't do it often. Cindy On 11/15/11, Jim Portillo wrote: Howdy howdy! Just wondering if any of you Facebook users have any positive experiences in creating individual photo albums and then uploading photos into those albums. I'd especially like to hear from totally blind users who have done it with a screen reader. I've been trying, by going to the Create album feature in the "Add Photo" section, but I'm not really doing something right. I have uploaded photos mainly via the m.facebook.com site, but I have a series of photos I'd like to upload that all belong together in an album. Any ideas? Jim _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma il.com -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 -- Cindy Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40 wavecable.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 15:38:14 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 07:38:14 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? In-Reply-To: <4ec8722b.a524340a.6f1e.28c2@mx.google.com> References: <4ec8722b.a524340a.6f1e.28c2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1ED04494FFF640CD9FE2ED5D5AACF795@userPC> Yes I saw that thank you. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Advertising to Blind People: How is it Done? I saw that, and accepted the request! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rania Ismail CMT" wrote: I know that ACB radio advertises about products and services for the blind. Alena On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Jewel wrote: Good morning! Today my English professor brought up a good questgion that is related to an assignment we'll be doing in class. The assignment is to analyze an advertisement, such as in a magazine or on television. We will be discussing the alternative for me today, but I wanted to get some ideas from you all. How do companies such as JAWS and GMA Games advertise to their audience, blind people? What format do they use, and can you give an example of advertisement? What about Apple and their VoiceOver...how did they advertise their builtin screenreader to blind people? Can you give me examples of advertisements directed to blind people as the audience, and what format they are in? Thhank you for any input you can provide. ~Jewel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts 2282%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40 hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04 %40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From gpaikens at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 16:48:13 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:48:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: <5DC1F3E4-9130-4E7C-9CAC-1D33259AFFB4@gmail.com> References: <5DC1F3E4-9130-4E7C-9CAC-1D33259AFFB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Marc, Thanks for the response. I did not mean to suggest anything about the inherent value or effectiveness of verbal vs. non verbal communication. The value of any communication, verbal or nonverbal is its ability to communicate one's message effectively to a target audience. In our case, blind people are our communicators and the target audience is a majority sighted world. Currently, it is a reality that the vast majority of people in our world make heavy use of non verbal communication. If a blind person does not use non verbal communication, even this is still interpreted as communicating something, perhaps disinterest or apathy. I think you are advocating that we move the focus off ourselves and instead emphasize building a culture that supports alternative forms of communication. I agree that our society needs to be more open to the different ways people communicate and perhaps there is some fruitful discussion down that path. In general though, I have very little control over how people interpret my forms of communication. I can't control how they think or respond to me. I do have control over my body and the ways I choose to communicate. I can choose to communicate in ways that are more likely to be interpreted correctly by my audience by using communication forms they are familiar with. To that end, I think investing time in learning non verbal forms of communication can be very beneficial for blind people in acquiring employment and developing social relationships with others who are not blind.. As you observed, we did not choose to "work in China," but I'm not sure why that invalidates the analogy. No matter how we found ourselves in this situation, that doesn't change the tools necessary for communicating to a given group of people. I am definitely taking a pragmatic approach to this question. Its good to look at creating a more accepting society, but even then I think the burden of effective communication is shared between communicator and audience. It doesn't make sense to lay all the blame on the audience, society at large, for misinterpreting my alternative forms of communication that they have no background for understanding. I understand the strong reaction against being forced to act in ways that are not natural. Eliminating "blind" forms of expressing oneself in favor of "sighted" forms of communication could be harmful or send the wrong message about blindness. My point is that adding non verbal communication skills to our repertoire can greatly enhance our communication ability and so are worth learning. Thanks, Greg On Nov 19, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Marc Workman wrote: > Bridgit wrote, > And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something > like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or > covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain > behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. > > The reason then offered for drawing this distinction, as far as I can tell, is that some behaviours are associated with other disabilities or with having experienced abuse. And where a blind person does not have these other disabilities or has not experienced abuse, it then becomes acceptable to pressure that person, where pressure can be either overt or subtle, to stop exhibiting those behaviours. > > I'm entirely puzzled by this argument. I see no reason why the fact that society has associated a set of behaviours with various disabilities/experiences makes it acceptable to try to stamp out those behaviours in people who do not have those disabilities/experiences. If this line of thinking is right, then whenever women act, walk, talk, dress, etc in ways that are typically associated with the ways in which men act, walk, talk, dress, etc, it would be perfectly appropriate to make them feel like they are doing something wrong, to dissuade them from exhibiting those behaviours, and to teach them the "proper" way for women to act, walk, talk, dress, etc. Personally, I see a problem with this. Perhaps, though, the argument is only meant to apply in cases where the behaviours are associated with cognitive or intellectual disability. I confess that I can't think of a good reason why behaviours associated with cognitive disability are to be avoided among those without such disabilities but where behaviours typically associated with men may appropriately be exhibited by women. Unless, that is, we view men and women as equal but do not view people with and without intellectual disabilities as equals. I would take issue with that myself. > > Greg wrote, > It is important to give blind kids the tools they need to communicate effectively in a majority sighted world. If I were to get a job at a company that has me working with many Chinese companies and traveling to China to make business deals, it would be an excellent strategy to learn as much as I can about Chinese customs and forms of communication to make sure I don't accidentally send the wrong messages. I think the same applies for blind people in a sighted world. I want to learn to use non verbal communication well so that I can communicate exactly what I want to to the people around me. > > A few comments by way of response: firstly, this seems to presuppose that communicating in these non-verbal ways is inherently more effective. It may be true that people rely on these non-verbal forms of communication, and so blind people who do not use them may find it harder to communicate, but this doesn't actually demonstrate that one form is more effective than the other. In fact, it could turn out that relying on non-verbal communication is actually less effective and that we would all communicate better if we didn't rely on non-verbal so much. However, even if it turns out that non-verbal is more effective, it's not clear that we, meaning everyone, would be better off trying to teach approximations of it rather than trying to teach a greater openness to various kinds of communication. I think the latter would be better myself. Secondly, I think the analogy of getting a job requiring travel to China and Ashley's example of moving to France don't quite fit. The important difference is that we do not choose to live in a sighted world. I'm not aware of any viable alternative to living in a sighted world, and I do not consider withdrawing from society to be a viable alternative. If you choose to get a job requiring travel to China or move to France, then it makes some sense that you would want to learn about Chinese and French customs, behaviours, communication, etc. Even then, I think challenging, questioning, reforming these customs, behaviours, communications is acceptable and maybe morally required in some cases. But what if a person was forced against her will to move to France and then told she cannot have friends or a job until she sufficiently mimics french people. To me, this would be a better analogy, and it strikes me as wrong. She may learn to mimic french people out of necessity, but I think it's obviously wrong to require this of her. > > Cheers, > > Marc > On 2011-11-19, at 12:30 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > >> This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand >> we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also >> should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other >> disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. >> >> Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since >> most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body >> language from observing others. >> >> Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we >> grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us >> as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, >> through learned behavior. >> >> It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior >> nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and >> understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn >> the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a >> nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body >> expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid >> expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is >> inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though >> nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it >> have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting >> behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned >> in a nonvisual manner. >> >> And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something >> like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or >> covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain >> behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >> >> First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an >> individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and >> unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, >> cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking >> is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. >> Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental >> disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are >> blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have >> developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also >> linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect >> people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar >> to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated >> with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be >> controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. >> >> In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my >> point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up >> through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or >> nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- >> acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as >> we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with >> computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. >> >> I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or >> internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social >> behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to >> other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. >> >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 >> From: Marc Workman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >> Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Carly wrote, >> How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if >> they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to >> sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, >> meaning? >> >> I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind >> people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not >> suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be >> done, but it makes me uncomfortable. >> >> The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. >> I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and >> act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and >> still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, >> there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for >> the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give >> evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying >> to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and >> emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give >> people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more >> "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring >> minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, >> body language, etc also often happens. >> >> I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There >> may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but >> feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you >> look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the >> least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a >> blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body >> language etc of some sighted people? >> >> You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. >> There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally >> acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have >> to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" >> are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that >> non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate >> better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to >> assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. >> >> What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look >> and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of >> differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so >> called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them >> out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour >> and appearance possessed by other minority groups. >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 19:05:44 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 12:05:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: <5DC1F3E4-9130-4E7C-9CAC-1D33259AFFB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71DFF2E6-9A35-443D-A9D2-5F98C387E972@gmail.com> Hello Greg, I appreciate your response as well. This is a subject i find interesting. My style is to quote and then respond. I find it helpful for ensuring that I'm responding to what a person actually said, and it helps the reader know to which specific point I'm responding, but I think it bothers some people, perhaps it comes across as confrontational. That's not my intention, so I hope it's not interpreted that way. Greg wrote, If a blind person does not use non verbal communication, even this is still interpreted as communicating something, perhaps disinterest or apathy. This interpretation would be a mistake, and it's the sort of mistake that should be corrected through education. Greg wrote, In general though, I have very little control over how people interpret my forms of communication. I can't control how they think or respond to me. On the face of it, this seems right, particularly when the word "control" is used, but has not the NFB been working to change attitudes about blindness for some seventy years? Have not the ways people think about and respond to blind people changed over this time? It's certainly daunting, but I think we have more power than is implied by the quote above. Greg wrote, I think investing time in learning non verbal forms of communication can be very beneficial for blind people in acquiring employment and developing social relationships with others who are not blind.. I think I would take less issue if the choice were: 1, have a perfectly successful and rich life without having to be taught to look and act like sighted people do, or 2, make an effort to learn these skills and a few more opportunities will be open to you, in the same way learning a second or third language opens up some opportunities. Of course, that is not the choice. What I see being said is: if you want to get a job or have friends, you better learn to look and act the way sighted people do. We're not talking about learning skills to increase opportunities; we're talking about severely diminished opportunities for those who fail to conform. Greg wrote, As you observed, we did not choose to "work in China," but I'm not sure why that invalidates the analogy. No matter how we found ourselves in this situation, that doesn't change the tools necessary for communicating to a given group of people. I think the analogy is invalidated because choosing to acquire new skills is not morally equivalent to being forced to abandon certain irrelevant habits/behaviours in favour of adopting other habits/behaviours. A choice between two jobs, one involving work in China and the other not involving work in China, is a reasonable choice. A choice between abandoning certain irrelevant habits/behaviours in order to find a job or maintaining these habits/behaviours and living on social assistance is not a reasonable choice, so we're talking about two different situations. I also do not agree that these "tools" are "necessary" for communication. Necessity suggests that it could not be otherwise, but it's exactly my point that we could and should educate the public that relying on non-verbal communication to the point that those who fail to learn it are significantly disadvantaged is not a matter of necessity. Greg wrote, Its good to look at creating a more accepting society, but even then I think the burden of effective communication is shared between communicator and audience. It doesn't make sense to lay all the blame on the audience, society at large, for misinterpreting my alternative forms of communication that they have no background for understanding. If it is understood as an alternative way of communicating, and if society is failing to respect it as such, then I think it is appropriate to point to this failure to respect an alternative way of communicating as the problem. And I think the solution is to educate and hopefully eventually get to a place where getting a job and making friends does not depend on one's ability to look and act like sighted people. Greg wrote, My point is that adding non verbal communication skills to our repertoire can greatly enhance our communication ability and so are worth learning. This goes back to my earlier point, if it really were like learning a second or third language, which enhances opportunities, I probably wouldn't have a problem, but it doesn't just enhance opportunities; it's essentially a prerequisite for having any reasonable opportunities at all. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-20, at 9:48 AM, Greg Aikens wrote: > Hi Marc, > Thanks for the response. I did not mean to suggest anything about the inherent value or effectiveness of verbal vs. non verbal communication. The value of any communication, verbal or nonverbal is its ability to communicate one's message effectively to a target audience. > In our case, blind people are our communicators and the target audience is a majority sighted world. Currently, it is a reality that the vast majority of people in our world make heavy use of non verbal communication. If a blind person does not use non verbal communication, even this is still interpreted as communicating something, perhaps disinterest or apathy. > > I think you are advocating that we move the focus off ourselves and instead emphasize building a culture that supports alternative forms of communication. I agree that our society needs to be more open to the different ways people communicate and perhaps there is some fruitful discussion down that path. In general though, I have very little control over how people interpret my forms of communication. I can't control how they think or respond to me. I do have control over my body and the ways I choose to communicate. I can choose to communicate in ways that are more likely to be interpreted correctly by my audience by using communication forms they are familiar with. To that end, I think investing time in learning non verbal forms of communication can be very beneficial for blind people in acquiring employment and developing social relationships with others who are not blind.. > > As you observed, we did not choose to "work in China," but I'm not sure why that invalidates the analogy. No matter how we found ourselves in this situation, that doesn't change the tools necessary for communicating to a given group of people. > > I am definitely taking a pragmatic approach to this question. Its good to look at creating a more accepting society, but even then I think the burden of effective communication is shared between communicator and audience. It doesn't make sense to lay all the blame on the audience, society at large, for misinterpreting my alternative forms of communication that they have no background for understanding. > > I understand the strong reaction against being forced to act in ways that are not natural. Eliminating "blind" forms of expressing oneself in favor of "sighted" forms of communication could be harmful or send the wrong message about blindness. My point is that adding non verbal communication skills to our repertoire can greatly enhance our communication ability and so are worth learning. > > Thanks, > Greg > > On Nov 19, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Marc Workman wrote: > >> Bridgit wrote, >> And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something >> like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or >> covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain >> behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >> >> The reason then offered for drawing this distinction, as far as I can tell, is that some behaviours are associated with other disabilities or with having experienced abuse. And where a blind person does not have these other disabilities or has not experienced abuse, it then becomes acceptable to pressure that person, where pressure can be either overt or subtle, to stop exhibiting those behaviours. >> >> I'm entirely puzzled by this argument. I see no reason why the fact that society has associated a set of behaviours with various disabilities/experiences makes it acceptable to try to stamp out those behaviours in people who do not have those disabilities/experiences. If this line of thinking is right, then whenever women act, walk, talk, dress, etc in ways that are typically associated with the ways in which men act, walk, talk, dress, etc, it would be perfectly appropriate to make them feel like they are doing something wrong, to dissuade them from exhibiting those behaviours, and to teach them the "proper" way for women to act, walk, talk, dress, etc. Personally, I see a problem with this. Perhaps, though, the argument is only meant to apply in cases where the behaviours are associated with cognitive or intellectual disability. I confess that I can't think of a good reason why behaviours associated with cognitive disability are to be avoided among those without such disabilities but where behaviours typically associated with men may appropriately be exhibited by women. Unless, that is, we view men and women as equal but do not view people with and without intellectual disabilities as equals. I would take issue with that myself. >> >> Greg wrote, >> It is important to give blind kids the tools they need to communicate effectively in a majority sighted world. If I were to get a job at a company that has me working with many Chinese companies and traveling to China to make business deals, it would be an excellent strategy to learn as much as I can about Chinese customs and forms of communication to make sure I don't accidentally send the wrong messages. I think the same applies for blind people in a sighted world. I want to learn to use non verbal communication well so that I can communicate exactly what I want to to the people around me. >> >> A few comments by way of response: firstly, this seems to presuppose that communicating in these non-verbal ways is inherently more effective. It may be true that people rely on these non-verbal forms of communication, and so blind people who do not use them may find it harder to communicate, but this doesn't actually demonstrate that one form is more effective than the other. In fact, it could turn out that relying on non-verbal communication is actually less effective and that we would all communicate better if we didn't rely on non-verbal so much. However, even if it turns out that non-verbal is more effective, it's not clear that we, meaning everyone, would be better off trying to teach approximations of it rather than trying to teach a greater openness to various kinds of communication. I think the latter would be better myself. Secondly, I think the analogy of getting a job requiring travel to China and Ashley's example of moving to France don't quite fit. The important difference is that we do not choose to live in a sighted world. I'm not aware of any viable alternative to living in a sighted world, and I do not consider withdrawing from society to be a viable alternative. If you choose to get a job requiring travel to China or move to France, then it makes some sense that you would want to learn about Chinese and French customs, behaviours, communication, etc. Even then, I think challenging, questioning, reforming these customs, behaviours, communications is acceptable and maybe morally required in some cases. But what if a person was forced against her will to move to France and then told she cannot have friends or a job until she sufficiently mimics french people. To me, this would be a better analogy, and it strikes me as wrong. She may learn to mimic french people out of necessity, but I think it's obviously wrong to require this of her. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Marc >> On 2011-11-19, at 12:30 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> >>> This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand >>> we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also >>> should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other >>> disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. >>> >>> Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since >>> most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body >>> language from observing others. >>> >>> Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we >>> grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us >>> as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, >>> through learned behavior. >>> >>> It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior >>> nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and >>> understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn >>> the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a >>> nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body >>> expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid >>> expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is >>> inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though >>> nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it >>> have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting >>> behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned >>> in a nonvisual manner. >>> >>> And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something >>> like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or >>> covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain >>> behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >>> >>> First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an >>> individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and >>> unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, >>> cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking >>> is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. >>> Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental >>> disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are >>> blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have >>> developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also >>> linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect >>> people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar >>> to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated >>> with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be >>> controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. >>> >>> In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my >>> point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up >>> through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or >>> nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- >>> acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as >>> we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with >>> computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. >>> >>> I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or >>> internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social >>> behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to >>> other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>> Read my blog at: >>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>> >>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>> >>> Message: 7 >>> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 >>> From: Marc Workman >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >>> Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> >>> Carly wrote, >>> How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if >>> they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to >>> sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, >>> meaning? >>> >>> I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind >>> people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not >>> suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be >>> done, but it makes me uncomfortable. >>> >>> The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. >>> I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and >>> act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and >>> still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, >>> there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for >>> the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give >>> evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying >>> to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and >>> emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give >>> people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more >>> "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring >>> minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, >>> body language, etc also often happens. >>> >>> I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There >>> may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but >>> feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you >>> look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the >>> least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a >>> blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body >>> language etc of some sighted people? >>> >>> You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. >>> There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally >>> acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have >>> to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" >>> are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that >>> non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate >>> better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to >>> assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. >>> >>> What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look >>> and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of >>> differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so >>> called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them >>> out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour >>> and appearance possessed by other minority groups. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Nov 20 19:28:55 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (SA Mobile) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:28:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: <5DC1F3E4-9130-4E7C-9CAC-1D33259AFFB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think we're far too concerned about w hat others think of us. More than likely, the average blind person is probably, for good or ill, as effective at communicating in any form of communication as the average sighted person. Respectfully Submitted Sent from my iPhone On 20/11/2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Aikens wrote: > Hi Marc, > Thanks for the response. I did not mean to suggest anything about the inherent value or effectiveness of verbal vs. non verbal communication. The value of any communication, verbal or nonverbal is its ability to communicate one's message effectively to a target audience. > In our case, blind people are our communicators and the target audience is a majority sighted world. Currently, it is a reality that the vast majority of people in our world make heavy use of non verbal communication. If a blind person does not use non verbal communication, even this is still interpreted as communicating something, perhaps disinterest or apathy. > > I think you are advocating that we move the focus off ourselves and instead emphasize building a culture that supports alternative forms of communication. I agree that our society needs to be more open to the different ways people communicate and perhaps there is some fruitful discussion down that path. In general though, I have very little control over how people interpret my forms of communication. I can't control how they think or respond to me. I do have control over my body and the ways I choose to communicate. I can choose to communicate in ways that are more likely to be interpreted correctly by my audience by using communication forms they are familiar with. To that end, I think investing time in learning non verbal forms of communication can be very beneficial for blind people in acquiring employment and developing social relationships with others who are not blind.. > > As you observed, we did not choose to "work in China," but I'm not sure why that invalidates the analogy. No matter how we found ourselves in this situation, that doesn't change the tools necessary for communicating to a given group of people. > > I am definitely taking a pragmatic approach to this question. Its good to look at creating a more accepting society, but even then I think the burden of effective communication is shared between communicator and audience. It doesn't make sense to lay all the blame on the audience, society at large, for misinterpreting my alternative forms of communication that they have no background for understanding. > > I understand the strong reaction against being forced to act in ways that are not natural. Eliminating "blind" forms of expressing oneself in favor of "sighted" forms of communication could be harmful or send the wrong message about blindness. My point is that adding non verbal communication skills to our repertoire can greatly enhance our communication ability and so are worth learning. > > Thanks, > Greg > > On Nov 19, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Marc Workman wrote: > >> Bridgit wrote, >> And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something >> like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or >> covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain >> behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >> >> The reason then offered for drawing this distinction, as far as I can tell, is that some behaviours are associated with other disabilities or with having experienced abuse. And where a blind person does not have these other disabilities or has not experienced abuse, it then becomes acceptable to pressure that person, where pressure can be either overt or subtle, to stop exhibiting those behaviours. >> >> I'm entirely puzzled by this argument. I see no reason why the fact that society has associated a set of behaviours with various disabilities/experiences makes it acceptable to try to stamp out those behaviours in people who do not have those disabilities/experiences. If this line of thinking is right, then whenever women act, walk, talk, dress, etc in ways that are typically associated with the ways in which men act, walk, talk, dress, etc, it would be perfectly appropriate to make them feel like they are doing something wrong, to dissuade them from exhibiting those behaviours, and to teach them the "proper" way for women to act, walk, talk, dress, etc. Personally, I see a problem with this. Perhaps, though, the argument is only meant to apply in cases where the behaviours are associated with cognitive or intellectual disability. I confess that I can't think of a good reason why behaviours associated with cognitive disability are to be avoided among those without such > disabilities but where behaviours typically associated with men may appropriately be exhibited by women. Unless, that is, we view men and women as equal but do not view people with and without intellectual disabilities as equals. I would take issue with that myself. >> >> Greg wrote, >> It is important to give blind kids the tools they need to communicate effectively in a majority sighted world. If I were to get a job at a company that has me working with many Chinese companies and traveling to China to make business deals, it would be an excellent strategy to learn as much as I can about Chinese customs and forms of communication to make sure I don't accidentally send the wrong messages. I think the same applies for blind people in a sighted world. I want to learn to use non verbal communication well so that I can communicate exactly what I want to to the people around me. >> >> A few comments by way of response: firstly, this seems to presuppose that communicating in these non-verbal ways is inherently more effective. It may be true that people rely on these non-verbal forms of communication, and so blind people who do not use them may find it harder to communicate, but this doesn't actually demonstrate that one form is more effective than the other. In fact, it could turn out that relying on non-verbal communication is actually less effective and that we would all communicate better if we didn't rely on non-verbal so much. However, even if it turns out that non-verbal is more effective, it's not clear that we, meaning everyone, would be better off trying to teach approximations of it rather than trying to teach a greater openness to various kinds of communication. I think the latter would be better myself. Secondly, I think the analogy of getting a job requiring travel to China and Ashley's example of moving to France don't quite fit. The i > mportant difference is that we do not choose to live in a sighted world. I'm not aware of any viable alternative to living in a sighted world, and I do not consider withdrawing from society to be a viable alternative. If you choose to get a job requiring travel to China or move to France, then it makes some sense that you would want to learn about Chinese and French customs, behaviours, communication, etc. Even then, I think challenging, questioning, reforming these customs, behaviours, communications is acceptable and maybe morally required in some cases. But what if a person was forced against her will to move to France and then told she cannot have friends or a job until she sufficiently mimics french people. To me, this would be a better analogy, and it strikes me as wrong. She may learn to mimic french people out of necessity, but I think it's obviously wrong to require this of her. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Marc >> On 2011-11-19, at 12:30 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> >>> This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand >>> we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also >>> should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other >>> disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. >>> >>> Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since >>> most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body >>> language from observing others. >>> >>> Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we >>> grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us >>> as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, >>> through learned behavior. >>> >>> It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior >>> nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and >>> understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn >>> the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a >>> nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body >>> expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid >>> expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is >>> inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though >>> nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it >>> have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting >>> behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned >>> in a nonvisual manner. >>> >>> And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something >>> like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or >>> covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain >>> behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >>> >>> First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an >>> individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and >>> unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, >>> cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking >>> is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. >>> Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental >>> disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are >>> blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have >>> developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also >>> linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect >>> people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar >>> to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated >>> with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be >>> controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. >>> >>> In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my >>> point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up >>> through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or >>> nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- >>> acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as >>> we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with >>> computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. >>> >>> I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or >>> internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social >>> behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to >>> other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>> Read my blog at: >>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>> >>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>> >>> Message: 7 >>> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 >>> From: Marc Workman >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >>> Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> >>> Carly wrote, >>> How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if >>> they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to >>> sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, >>> meaning? >>> >>> I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind >>> people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not >>> suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be >>> done, but it makes me uncomfortable. >>> >>> The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. >>> I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and >>> act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and >>> still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, >>> there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for >>> the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give >>> evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying >>> to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and >>> emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give >>> people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more >>> "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring >>> minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, >>> body language, etc also often happens. >>> >>> I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There >>> may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but >>> feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you >>> look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the >>> least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a >>> blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body >>> language etc of some sighted people? >>> >>> You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. >>> There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally >>> acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have >>> to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" >>> are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that >>> non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate >>> better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to >>> assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. >>> >>> What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look >>> and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of >>> differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so >>> called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them >>> out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour >>> and appearance possessed by other minority groups. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 20:07:54 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:07:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight In-Reply-To: <4ec87221.a524340a.6f1e.28b6@mx.google.com> References: <4ec87221.a524340a.6f1e.28b6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <441D8B206868442F91BD7AC9EB75230D@OwnerPC> Chris, if you're going to complain, maybe help them fix the problem. These are volunteers. Also, you sent over ten messages to the list, you must have finished your homework. When I was in that grade, I didn't have time to write so much due to loads of work. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Dave, we've been waiting since like August! I understand David has a bunch of stuff to take care of with his running of AudioAccessFM, but something really must be going on here, to have the Web page not work for four months, even after a change of Web hosting providers and like three emails to the list from the Webmaster himself saying that it's back up. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 20:14:31 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:14:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class In-Reply-To: <4ec87233.a524340a.6f1e.28c8@mx.google.com> References: <4ec87233.a524340a.6f1e.28c8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, Right. Many keystrokes are either windows based or microsoft office based. Anything with a control key and a letter is usually a microsoft office command, like control O for Open or control s for save I'm definitely going to talk to the professor before class and see what he/she know and if we can work it out. She/he will tell everyone else to click here and there, but I'm hoping she can teach me by explaining and key commands. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] taking a introduction computer class Hi Ashley, The professor may know more than you think. Most keystrokes that you use with JAWS are actually keystrokes based into Windows, and therefore can be used on any computer, JAWS or not. The only JAWS-EXCLUSIVE keystrokes, to the best of my knowledge, are those which start with the Insert or JAWS key. My school recently took a field trip to our county's career and tech school, and I was in the computer tech group, in which we got to do some hands-on things with programming a simple operation. We were using PC's, which of course were without JAWS or any other screen reader. My I A was there and was my human JAWS, if you will, but I was able to operate the computer pretty successfully using the keystrokes I already knew, as long as she told me where I am on the screen after hitting those keystrokes. So all the keystrokes you use everyday, like Alt Tab to go between windows you have opened, Alt F 4 to close a window, the Windows key to get to your start menu, Alt D (in Internet Explorer) to get to the address bar, the arrow keys to move the cursor and scroll up and down the screen, and of course good old Enter to select a menu option or "click" on a link or button on a Web page, etc, etc, are Windows keystrokes. Hope this helps! Good luck! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" References: <4ec8722a.a524340a.6f1e.28c1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <41DF15E9F6FB4D2D945D948D177865B0@OwnerPC> Actually, Chris, if you are observant and listen, you can pick up on some body language. Not in a crowd, but if its one to one or a small group in a quiet room, you will hear things. Some examples. You can hear hand gestures because it sounds different when people talk, you'll just sense their movement. You can hear expressions as well, and if you hear them in a voice, likely they are facial visual expressions too. You can hear a smile. Also a high pitched, fast voice means happiness or surprise. I wish I could act it to show you! But that is how I can describe it. Someone might say "Hi Ashley, its great to see you again!" and I know they are cheerful, I don't need to see it to know, but usually can see a smile. You can also hear sounds of shoes on a tile or wooden floor. High heels make a certain noise; men's dockers sound kind of like a clop clop sound. You can also hear bracelets rattling against each other. You can definitely pick up on some nonverbal expressions by listening to how people act. True not as much, but you can do some. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Hi Tara, That's a good point. However, I'm not sure if the class is needed. I say this because, especially in the case of those of us (like myself) who are totally blind or only have light perception, we would only get one side of the body language; that is, the body language that we display to sighted people. While this is important, especially in how we present ourselves for things like job interviews and such, we'll have no way of knowing what body language sighted people are conveying to us, no matter what classes on the subject we take. This is because, simply, we can't see the body language! So, in short, by taking the suggested body language course, we'd only get to use half of the information taught, because we can't discern what sighted people are conveying to us via body language, and therefore can't react to it. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Tara Annis References: <4ec8722a.a524340a.6f1e.28c1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3ECB68D18C304997B04EF768FB79D204@OwnerPC> Hi, Ah Paralanguage! That is the term I learned in communications classes for this, what I was trying to describe earlier. And, yes, you can hear the person's direction, whether they are looking at you or down at a book or just down. If they are looking down, it is a nonverbal cue that they are busy or doing something else and do not want to talk, but may not tell you. Another clue is if they are looking away. If they stop looking toward you, they might be getting the attention of someone else across the room by looking toward them. When you said "Paralanguage and other cues often supplement gestures and expressions." I think that is very true. I've noticed that people use gestures and other nonverbals even on a phone. Why? Because its natural to talk that way, a way of expressing themselves. But obviously, these expressions are manefisted by listening to have an effective conversation. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: SA Mobile Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 12:51 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Chris, One can hear the more important body language by listening to vocal direction and resonance; this is how you hear a smile or know if someone's looking down. These are just examples. Paralanguage and other cues often supplement gestures and expressions. As to direct eye contact, it is actually seldom done even in the States except for very brief periods. So just facing someone is quite sufficient in our culture. Respectfully Submitted Sent from my iPhone On 19/11/2011, at 9:20 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Tara, > > That's a good point. However, I'm not sure if the class is needed. I say > this because, especially in the case of those of us (like myself) who are > totally blind or only have light perception, we would only get one side of > the body language; that is, the body language that we display to sighted > people. While this is important, especially in how we present ourselves > for things like job interviews and such, we'll have no way of knowing what > body language sighted people are conveying to us, no matter what classes > on the subject we take. This is because, simply, we can't see the body > language! So, in short, by taking the suggested body language course, we'd > only get to use half of the information taught, because we can't discern > what sighted people are conveying to us via body language, and therefore > can't react to it. > > Chris > > "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real > problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a > blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be > reduced to a mere physical nuisance." > -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, > 1968-1986 > > P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in > Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive > technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be > equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation > and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! > > Sent from my BrailleNote Apex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tara Annis To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Date sent: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:20:31 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > > I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings > across to the sighted is to understand what is considered ignorance and > what is considered outright teasing and cruelty in public. Many of the > meanest things are just said with one word and a lot of body language. > Many people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit > cruelty in their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not > all, but some, do lack discernment in this area, especially if they are > blind from birth and a sighted person does not take the time to explain > nonverbal communication. I think the first step would be for an honest > sighted person to follow a blind person around and interpret the visual > elements to the blind person, so that the entire picture can be analyzed > for both parties. I think one of the best ways to respond to those who > are ignorant, who are not attempting to be mean, but make offensive > remarks is through body language, like rolling one's eyes. Most sighted > people use nonverbal communication to show when they are irritated by > another person. If the person continues to be annoying, the person will > then use verbal communication. That is why sighted people think blind are > mean for actually verbally stating their anger, instead of visually > displaying it. I would like to see a class where advanced nonverbal > communication is explained, since currently it seems there are just the > basics taught, like facing the person you are talking to and shaking > hands. There is not a class in how to display the various ways of > shooing levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, somewhat > irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes it is > necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as > opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings. > Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is > displayed nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large > college campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments > about me from my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel > that I am more comfortable around sighted people, and am in control of > getting my feelings across. The great thing about learning all this stuff > is that I have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people > diminish significantly. It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do > their half of helping get rid of ignorance and sighted people need to > be willing to do their half. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 20:40:27 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:40:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: <5DC1F3E4-9130-4E7C-9CAC-1D33259AFFB4@gmail.com> References: <5DC1F3E4-9130-4E7C-9CAC-1D33259AFFB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <85FBBF03221446F786D28F5141D31FE1@OwnerPC> Brigit is right. Rocking and the uncontrolled body movements are indicative of cognitive or develomental disabilities. All of us are smart enough, intelligent enough, advocates enough, to go to college right? We are on the nabs list. We either got into or went through college. So act like it! Walk proud, tall, confidently! Don't act retarded. If its respectable to be blind, we ought to present like it is. Those people with their head down just don't seem as approachable to me. I might add that even those with multiple disabilities can learn to control their head/body movement to some extent, if their parents/teachers work on it via a reward system. There are methods to do this based on a behavior model. I'm not one to go out of my way to impress people, except for maybe a job interview, or change my looks to suit people. I won't have plastic surgery or anything. But I think learning to adopt some behavior of the majority of people is right. Thanks Bridgit for giving me that word, adopt. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 6:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Bridgit wrote, And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. The reason then offered for drawing this distinction, as far as I can tell, is that some behaviours are associated with other disabilities or with having experienced abuse. And where a blind person does not have these other disabilities or has not experienced abuse, it then becomes acceptable to pressure that person, where pressure can be either overt or subtle, to stop exhibiting those behaviours. I'm entirely puzzled by this argument. I see no reason why the fact that society has associated a set of behaviours with various disabilities/experiences makes it acceptable to try to stamp out those behaviours in people who do not have those disabilities/experiences. If this line of thinking is right, then whenever women act, walk, talk, dress, etc in ways that are typically associated with the ways in which men act, walk, talk, dress, etc, it would be perfectly appropriate to make them feel like they are doing something wrong, to dissuade them from exhibiting those behaviours, and to teach them the "proper" way for women to act, walk, talk, dress, etc. Personally, I see a problem with this. Perhaps, though, the argument is only meant to apply in cases where the behaviours are associated with cognitive or intellectual disability. I confess that I can't think of a good reason why behaviours associated with cognitive disability are to be avoided among those without such disabilities but where behaviours typically associated with men may appropriately be exhibited by women. Unless, that is, we view men and women as equal but do not view people with and without intellectual disabilities as equals. I would take issue with that myself. Greg wrote, It is important to give blind kids the tools they need to communicate effectively in a majority sighted world. If I were to get a job at a company that has me working with many Chinese companies and traveling to China to make business deals, it would be an excellent strategy to learn as much as I can about Chinese customs and forms of communication to make sure I don't accidentally send the wrong messages. I think the same applies for blind people in a sighted world. I want to learn to use non verbal communication well so that I can communicate exactly what I want to to the people around me. A few comments by way of response: firstly, this seems to presuppose that communicating in these non-verbal ways is inherently more effective. It may be true that people rely on these non-verbal forms of communication, and so blind people who do not use them may find it harder to communicate, but this doesn't actually demonstrate that one form is more effective than the other. In fact, it could turn out that relying on non-verbal communication is actually less effective and that we would all communicate better if we didn't rely on non-verbal so much. However, even if it turns out that non-verbal is more effective, it's not clear that we, meaning everyone, would be better off trying to teach approximations of it rather than trying to teach a greater openness to various kinds of communication. I think the latter would be better myself. Secondly, I think the analogy of getting a job requiring travel to China and Ashley's example of moving to France don't quite fit. The important difference is that we do not choose to live in a sighted world. I'm not aware of any viable alternative to living in a sighted world, and I do not consider withdrawing from society to be a viable alternative. If you choose to get a job requiring travel to China or move to France, then it makes some sense that you would want to learn about Chinese and French customs, behaviours, communication, etc. Even then, I think challenging, questioning, reforming these customs, behaviours, communications is acceptable and maybe morally required in some cases. But what if a person was forced against her will to move to France and then told she cannot have friends or a job until she sufficiently mimics french people. To me, this would be a better analogy, and it strikes me as wrong. She may learn to mimic french people out of necessity, but I think it's obviously wrong to require this of her. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-19, at 12:30 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand > we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also > should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other > disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. > > Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since > most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body > language from observing others. > > Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we > grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us > as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, > through learned behavior. > > It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior > nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and > understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn > the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a > nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body > expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid > expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is > inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though > nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it > have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting > behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned > in a nonvisual manner. > > And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something > like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or > covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain > behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. > > First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an > individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and > unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, > cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking > is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. > Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental > disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are > blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have > developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also > linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect > people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar > to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated > with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be > controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. > > In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my > point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up > through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or > nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- > acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as > we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with > computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. > > I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or > internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social > behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to > other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 > From: Marc Workman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Carly wrote, > How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if > they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to > sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, > meaning? > > I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind > people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not > suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be > done, but it makes me uncomfortable. > > The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. > I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and > act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and > still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, > there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for > the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give > evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying > to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and > emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give > people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more > "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring > minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, > body language, etc also often happens. > > I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There > may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but > feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you > look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the > least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a > blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body > language etc of some sighted people? > > You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. > There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally > acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have > to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" > are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that > non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate > better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to > assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. > > What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look > and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of > differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so > called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them > out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour > and appearance possessed by other minority groups. > > Cheers, > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 20 20:41:07 2011 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:41:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight References: <4ec87221.a524340a.6f1e.28b6@mx.google.com> <441D8B206868442F91BD7AC9EB75230D@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <000901cca7c4$bb0c0ee0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, This seems to be a wide-spread problem in the NFB. New Web Sites and other Internet resources are announced and the resource launch fails to materialize. In other instances there are a few national Web sites with pages yet to be populated with content. If you go to them the only message you read is "Coming Soon." In one case the content for a page on one of our national Web sites has been "Coming Soon" for over two years. And this site is managed by paid staff hence I don't buy the volunteer argument. My advice to those who administer such sites either populate all of your site pages or take them down until you have content to place on them! Likewise be careful about announcing site launches until you know beyond the shadow of a doubt you can put the Web site or resource online and have all of its pages populated with site content. Another problem I've seen is affiliates who want a Web site put up pay someone to build it for them, and then communication breaks down. This actually happened to me with one of our affiliates. They asked me to build it two years ago. It wasn't until the end of June this year that their Web site was launched. Much work went in to building that Web site. In early September I was informed by this particular affiliate that they wished to take their Web site in another direction and they were working with a different developer. Had they communicated with me regularly concerning their sites content and direction I wouldn't have wasted my time building this Web site and chasing down some of their members for direction and assistance with content. If you go to this Web site you're prompted to enter a username and a password. All of my hard work is gone! A word to the wise. I'm willing to build Web sites for NFB affiliates but there must be on-going communication and you need to be perfectly clear about what you want on the site to be sure it addresses your needs. If other NFB Webmasters have been treated this way I can understand why affiliate Web sites don't launch on the promised day. I hope David can get the NABSLink Audio Site up ASAP! Otherwise why not just place audio and video content directly on the regular NABS Web Site. There was a recording of the 2009 NABS Annual Meeting in Detroit there at one time but those who took over its administration wrecked much of the work of myself and others. While I'm not trying to flame anyone in particular I thought I would give some insite as to why there are issues with NFB Web Sites from the perspective of one who administers or administered some of them. All the best for a great Thanksgiving. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Chris, if you're going to complain, maybe help them fix the problem. These are volunteers. Also, you sent over ten messages to the list, you must have finished your homework. When I was in that grade, I didn't have time to write so much due to loads of work. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Dave, we've been waiting since like August! I understand David has a bunch of stuff to take care of with his running of AudioAccessFM, but something really must be going on here, to have the Web page not work for four months, even after a change of Web hosting providers and like three emails to the list from the Webmaster himself saying that it's back up. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 20:52:24 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:52:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: <5DC1F3E4-9130-4E7C-9CAC-1D33259AFFB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F74D3E8F64F4F89A025FA1619E98AEE@OwnerPC> Greg, I agree here. Remember that nonverbals can be heard too, sometimes. Paralanguage, or language that is not explicitly said, isnonverbal. Look up the definition to be exact, but this is close. Paralanguage is things like tone, volume, rate, and pitch of your speech. Tone says a lot about how people feel. Just pointing that out because even though its nonverbal, we can still observe it. Verbal language refers to speech and how people talk like their accents. You said "I do have control over my body and the ways I choose to communicate. I can choose to communicate in ways that are more likely to be interpreted correctly by my audience by using communication forms they are familiar with. To that end, I think investing time in learning non verbal forms of communication can be very beneficial for blind people in acquiring employment and developing social relationships with others who are not blind.. " Okay, so if you have done this, what did you do? What steps were taken to learn these communication signals? I'm hoping when I take public speaking again or get involved in toastmasters, I can learn how to do some of these nonverbals including gestures. Maybe someone formally sighted can explain these. There is a signal for emphasis of your point, but I don't know what it is. Also, remember that your presentation varies by situation. In less formal settings like a school club or sitting down to eat in the cafeteria with friends, people seem less worried about presentation. Just ask someone what people do on a college campus. I' know its often a bit immature behavior. But if you're presenting in class or somewhere else, in church, getting an award, or something like it, people act more serious. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 11:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Hi Marc, Thanks for the response. I did not mean to suggest anything about the inherent value or effectiveness of verbal vs. non verbal communication. The value of any communication, verbal or nonverbal is its ability to communicate one's message effectively to a target audience. In our case, blind people are our communicators and the target audience is a majority sighted world. Currently, it is a reality that the vast majority of people in our world make heavy use of non verbal communication. If a blind person does not use non verbal communication, even this is still interpreted as communicating something, perhaps disinterest or apathy. I think you are advocating that we move the focus off ourselves and instead emphasize building a culture that supports alternative forms of communication. I agree that our society needs to be more open to the different ways people communicate and perhaps there is some fruitful discussion down that path. In general though, I have very little control over how people interpret my forms of communication. I can't control how they think or respond to me. I do have control over my body and the ways I choose to communicate. I can choose to communicate in ways that are more likely to be interpreted correctly by my audience by using communication forms they are familiar with. To that end, I think investing time in learning non verbal forms of communication can be very beneficial for blind people in acquiring employment and developing social relationships with others who are not blind.. As you observed, we did not choose to "work in China," but I'm not sure why that invalidates the analogy. No matter how we found ourselves in this situation, that doesn't change the tools necessary for communicating to a given group of people. I am definitely taking a pragmatic approach to this question. Its good to look at creating a more accepting society, but even then I think the burden of effective communication is shared between communicator and audience. It doesn't make sense to lay all the blame on the audience, society at large, for misinterpreting my alternative forms of communication that they have no background for understanding. I understand the strong reaction against being forced to act in ways that are not natural. Eliminating "blind" forms of expressing oneself in favor of "sighted" forms of communication could be harmful or send the wrong message about blindness. My point is that adding non verbal communication skills to our repertoire can greatly enhance our communication ability and so are worth learning. Thanks, Greg On Nov 19, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Marc Workman wrote: > Bridgit wrote, > And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something > like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or > covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain > behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. > > The reason then offered for drawing this distinction, as far as I can > tell, is that some behaviours are associated with other disabilities or > with having experienced abuse. And where a blind person does not have > these other disabilities or has not experienced abuse, it then becomes > acceptable to pressure that person, where pressure can be either overt or > subtle, to stop exhibiting those behaviours. > > I'm entirely puzzled by this argument. I see no reason why the fact that > society has associated a set of behaviours with various > disabilities/experiences makes it acceptable to try to stamp out those > behaviours in people who do not have those disabilities/experiences. If > this line of thinking is right, then whenever women act, walk, talk, > dress, etc in ways that are typically associated with the ways in which > men act, walk, talk, dress, etc, it would be perfectly appropriate to make > them feel like they are doing something wrong, to dissuade them from > exhibiting those behaviours, and to teach them the "proper" way for women > to act, walk, talk, dress, etc. Personally, I see a problem with this. > Perhaps, though, the argument is only meant to apply in cases where the > behaviours are associated with cognitive or intellectual disability. I > confess that I can't think of a good reason why behaviours associated with > cognitive disability are to be avoided among those without such > disabilities but where behaviours typically associated with men may > appropriately be exhibited by women. Unless, that is, we view men and > women as equal but do not view people with and without intellectual > disabilities as equals. I would take issue with that myself. > > Greg wrote, > It is important to give blind kids the tools they need to communicate > effectively in a majority sighted world. If I were to get a job at a > company that has me working with many Chinese companies and traveling to > China to make business deals, it would be an excellent strategy to learn > as much as I can about Chinese customs and forms of communication to make > sure I don't accidentally send the wrong messages. I think the same > applies for blind people in a sighted world. I want to learn to use non > verbal communication well so that I can communicate exactly what I want to > to the people around me. > > A few comments by way of response: firstly, this seems to presuppose that > communicating in these non-verbal ways is inherently more effective. It > may be true that people rely on these non-verbal forms of communication, > and so blind people who do not use them may find it harder to communicate, > but this doesn't actually demonstrate that one form is more effective than > the other. In fact, it could turn out that relying on non-verbal > communication is actually less effective and that we would all communicate > better if we didn't rely on non-verbal so much. However, even if it turns > out that non-verbal is more effective, it's not clear that we, meaning > everyone, would be better off trying to teach approximations of it rather > than trying to teach a greater openness to various kinds of communication. > I think the latter would be better myself. Secondly, I think the analogy > of getting a job requiring travel to China and Ashley's example of moving > to France don't quite fit. The important difference is that we do not > choose to live in a sighted world. I'm not aware of any viable > alternative to living in a sighted world, and I do not consider > withdrawing from society to be a viable alternative. If you choose to get > a job requiring travel to China or move to France, then it makes some > sense that you would want to learn about Chinese and French customs, > behaviours, communication, etc. Even then, I think challenging, > questioning, reforming these customs, behaviours, communications is > acceptable and maybe morally required in some cases. But what if a person > was forced against her will to move to France and then told she cannot > have friends or a job until she sufficiently mimics french people. To me, > this would be a better analogy, and it strikes me as wrong. She may learn > to mimic french people out of necessity, but I think it's obviously wrong > to require this of her. > > Cheers, > > Marc > On 2011-11-19, at 12:30 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > >> This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand >> we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also >> should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other >> disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. >> >> Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since >> most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body >> language from observing others. >> >> Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we >> grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us >> as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, >> through learned behavior. >> >> It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior >> nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and >> understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn >> the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a >> nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body >> expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid >> expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is >> inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though >> nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it >> have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting >> behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned >> in a nonvisual manner. >> >> And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something >> like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or >> covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain >> behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >> >> First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an >> individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and >> unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, >> cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking >> is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. >> Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental >> disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are >> blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have >> developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also >> linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect >> people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar >> to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated >> with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be >> controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. >> >> In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my >> point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up >> through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or >> nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- >> acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as >> we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with >> computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. >> >> I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or >> internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social >> behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to >> other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. >> >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 >> From: Marc Workman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >> Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Carly wrote, >> How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if >> they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to >> sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, >> meaning? >> >> I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind >> people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not >> suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be >> done, but it makes me uncomfortable. >> >> The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. >> I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and >> act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and >> still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, >> there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for >> the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give >> evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying >> to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and >> emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give >> people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more >> "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring >> minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, >> body language, etc also often happens. >> >> I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There >> may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but >> feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you >> look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the >> least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a >> blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body >> language etc of some sighted people? >> >> You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. >> There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally >> acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have >> to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" >> are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that >> non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate >> better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to >> assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. >> >> What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look >> and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of >> differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so >> called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them >> out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour >> and appearance possessed by other minority groups. >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 20:58:16 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:58:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: <71DFF2E6-9A35-443D-A9D2-5F98C387E972@gmail.com> References: <5DC1F3E4-9130-4E7C-9CAC-1D33259AFFB4@gmail.com> <71DFF2E6-9A35-443D-A9D2-5F98C387E972@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C8E917B71674B478EC67069473E1CA3@OwnerPC> No one is suggesting we hide blindness. We all still use braille, our canes, screen readers, etc, but when we argue for learning to communicate effectively, it’s a matter of fitting in. As Bridgit said, little children learn by observing others. They adopt these ways by second nature without someone telling them. Because we cannot see, IMO part of being raised is to learn such behaviors nonvisually. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Hello Greg, I appreciate your response as well. This is a subject i find interesting. My style is to quote and then respond. I find it helpful for ensuring that I'm responding to what a person actually said, and it helps the reader know to which specific point I'm responding, but I think it bothers some people, perhaps it comes across as confrontational. That's not my intention, so I hope it's not interpreted that way. Greg wrote, If a blind person does not use non verbal communication, even this is still interpreted as communicating something, perhaps disinterest or apathy. This interpretation would be a mistake, and it's the sort of mistake that should be corrected through education. Greg wrote, In general though, I have very little control over how people interpret my forms of communication. I can't control how they think or respond to me. On the face of it, this seems right, particularly when the word "control" is used, but has not the NFB been working to change attitudes about blindness for some seventy years? Have not the ways people think about and respond to blind people changed over this time? It's certainly daunting, but I think we have more power than is implied by the quote above. Greg wrote, I think investing time in learning non verbal forms of communication can be very beneficial for blind people in acquiring employment and developing social relationships with others who are not blind.. I think I would take less issue if the choice were: 1, have a perfectly successful and rich life without having to be taught to look and act like sighted people do, or 2, make an effort to learn these skills and a few more opportunities will be open to you, in the same way learning a second or third language opens up some opportunities. Of course, that is not the choice. What I see being said is: if you want to get a job or have friends, you better learn to look and act the way sighted people do. We're not talking about learning skills to increase opportunities; we're talking about severely diminished opportunities for those who fail to conform. Greg wrote, As you observed, we did not choose to "work in China," but I'm not sure why that invalidates the analogy. No matter how we found ourselves in this situation, that doesn't change the tools necessary for communicating to a given group of people. I think the analogy is invalidated because choosing to acquire new skills is not morally equivalent to being forced to abandon certain irrelevant habits/behaviours in favour of adopting other habits/behaviours. A choice between two jobs, one involving work in China and the other not involving work in China, is a reasonable choice. A choice between abandoning certain irrelevant habits/behaviours in order to find a job or maintaining these habits/behaviours and living on social assistance is not a reasonable choice, so we're talking about two different situations. I also do not agree that these "tools" are "necessary" for communication. Necessity suggests that it could not be otherwise, but it's exactly my point that we could and should educate the public that relying on non-verbal communication to the point that those who fail to learn it are significantly disadvantaged is not a matter of necessity. Greg wrote, Its good to look at creating a more accepting society, but even then I think the burden of effective communication is shared between communicator and audience. It doesn't make sense to lay all the blame on the audience, society at large, for misinterpreting my alternative forms of communication that they have no background for understanding. If it is understood as an alternative way of communicating, and if society is failing to respect it as such, then I think it is appropriate to point to this failure to respect an alternative way of communicating as the problem. And I think the solution is to educate and hopefully eventually get to a place where getting a job and making friends does not depend on one's ability to look and act like sighted people. Greg wrote, My point is that adding non verbal communication skills to our repertoire can greatly enhance our communication ability and so are worth learning. This goes back to my earlier point, if it really were like learning a second or third language, which enhances opportunities, I probably wouldn't have a problem, but it doesn't just enhance opportunities; it's essentially a prerequisite for having any reasonable opportunities at all. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-20, at 9:48 AM, Greg Aikens wrote: > Hi Marc, > Thanks for the response. I did not mean to suggest anything about the > inherent value or effectiveness of verbal vs. non verbal communication. > The value of any communication, verbal or nonverbal is its ability to > communicate one's message effectively to a target audience. > In our case, blind people are our communicators and the target audience is > a majority sighted world. Currently, it is a reality that the vast > majority of people in our world make heavy use of non verbal > communication. If a blind person does not use non verbal communication, > even this is still interpreted as communicating something, perhaps > disinterest or apathy. > > I think you are advocating that we move the focus off ourselves and > instead emphasize building a culture that supports alternative forms of > communication. I agree that our society needs to be more open to the > different ways people communicate and perhaps there is some fruitful > discussion down that path. In general though, I have very little control > over how people interpret my forms of communication. I can't control how > they think or respond to me. I do have control over my body and the ways > I choose to communicate. I can choose to communicate in ways that are > more likely to be interpreted correctly by my audience by using > communication forms they are familiar with. To that end, I think > investing time in learning non verbal forms of communication can be very > beneficial for blind people in acquiring employment and developing social > relationships with others who are not blind.. > > As you observed, we did not choose to "work in China," but I'm not sure > why that invalidates the analogy. No matter how we found ourselves in > this situation, that doesn't change the tools necessary for communicating > to a given group of people. > > I am definitely taking a pragmatic approach to this question. Its good to > look at creating a more accepting society, but even then I think the > burden of effective communication is shared between communicator and > audience. It doesn't make sense to lay all the blame on the audience, > society at large, for misinterpreting my alternative forms of > communication that they have no background for understanding. > > I understand the strong reaction against being forced to act in ways that > are not natural. Eliminating "blind" forms of expressing oneself in favor > of "sighted" forms of communication could be harmful or send the wrong > message about blindness. My point is that adding non verbal communication > skills to our repertoire can greatly enhance our communication ability and > so are worth learning. > > Thanks, > Greg > > On Nov 19, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Marc Workman wrote: > >> Bridgit wrote, >> And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something >> like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or >> covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain >> behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >> >> The reason then offered for drawing this distinction, as far as I can >> tell, is that some behaviours are associated with other disabilities or >> with having experienced abuse. And where a blind person does not have >> these other disabilities or has not experienced abuse, it then becomes >> acceptable to pressure that person, where pressure can be either overt or >> subtle, to stop exhibiting those behaviours. >> >> I'm entirely puzzled by this argument. I see no reason why the fact that >> society has associated a set of behaviours with various >> disabilities/experiences makes it acceptable to try to stamp out those >> behaviours in people who do not have those disabilities/experiences. If >> this line of thinking is right, then whenever women act, walk, talk, >> dress, etc in ways that are typically associated with the ways in which >> men act, walk, talk, dress, etc, it would be perfectly appropriate to >> make them feel like they are doing something wrong, to dissuade them from >> exhibiting those behaviours, and to teach them the "proper" way for women >> to act, walk, talk, dress, etc. Personally, I see a problem with this. >> Perhaps, though, the argument is only meant to apply in cases where the >> behaviours are associated with cognitive or intellectual disability. I >> confess that I can't think of a good reason why behaviours associated >> with cognitive disability are to be avoided among those without such >> disabilities but where behaviours typically associated with men may >> appropriately be exhibited by women. Unless, that is, we view men and >> women as equal but do not view people with and without intellectual >> disabilities as equals. I would take issue with that myself. >> >> Greg wrote, >> It is important to give blind kids the tools they need to communicate >> effectively in a majority sighted world. If I were to get a job at a >> company that has me working with many Chinese companies and traveling to >> China to make business deals, it would be an excellent strategy to learn >> as much as I can about Chinese customs and forms of communication to make >> sure I don't accidentally send the wrong messages. I think the same >> applies for blind people in a sighted world. I want to learn to use non >> verbal communication well so that I can communicate exactly what I want >> to to the people around me. >> >> A few comments by way of response: firstly, this seems to presuppose that >> communicating in these non-verbal ways is inherently more effective. It >> may be true that people rely on these non-verbal forms of communication, >> and so blind people who do not use them may find it harder to >> communicate, but this doesn't actually demonstrate that one form is more >> effective than the other. In fact, it could turn out that relying on >> non-verbal communication is actually less effective and that we would all >> communicate better if we didn't rely on non-verbal so much. However, >> even if it turns out that non-verbal is more effective, it's not clear >> that we, meaning everyone, would be better off trying to teach >> approximations of it rather than trying to teach a greater openness to >> various kinds of communication. I think the latter would be better >> myself. Secondly, I think the analogy of getting a job requiring travel >> to China and Ashley's example of moving to France don't quite fit. The >> important difference is that we do not choose to live in a sighted world. >> I'm not aware of any viable alternative to living in a sighted world, and >> I do not consider withdrawing from society to be a viable alternative. >> If you choose to get a job requiring travel to China or move to France, >> then it makes some sense that you would want to learn about Chinese and >> French customs, behaviours, communication, etc. Even then, I think >> challenging, questioning, reforming these customs, behaviours, >> communications is acceptable and maybe morally required in some cases. >> But what if a person was forced against her will to move to France and >> then told she cannot have friends or a job until she sufficiently mimics >> french people. To me, this would be a better analogy, and it strikes me >> as wrong. She may learn to mimic french people out of necessity, but I >> think it's obviously wrong to require this of her. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Marc >> On 2011-11-19, at 12:30 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> >>> This is such a dodgy issue. It is a fine balance, and while I understand >>> we shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also >>> should try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other >>> disabilities associated with mental and cognitive issues. >>> >>> Most body language and facial expressions are learned behavior. Since >>> most of the population is sighted, we learn facial expressions and body >>> language from observing others. >>> >>> Babies and little children often mimic what they see others doing. As we >>> grow older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us >>> as individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or unconscious, >>> through learned behavior. >>> >>> It stands to reason that if a person is trying to adopt behavior >>> nonvisually, one would work with another person to adopt, and >>> understand, certain facial and body expressions. Just because we learn >>> the behavior, A. K. A. facial expressions and body language, through a >>> nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and body >>> expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and rigid >>> expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, is >>> inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual. If you learn, though >>> nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why does it >>> have to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're adopting >>> behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though learned >>> in a nonvisual manner. >>> >>> And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking u to cover, hide, something >>> like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin or straightening hair or >>> covering accents/dialects; I don't, however, think that changing certain >>> behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated to this. >>> >>> First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as an >>> individual whether noticeable or not. It's often instinctive and >>> unconscious. However, some movements are associated with mental, >>> cognitive or psychological disabilities/concerns. In particular, rocking >>> is often associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims. >>> Certain facial expressions are also associated with developmental >>> disabilities and other psychological issues. Obviously people who are >>> blind, while many do have multiple disabilities, don't have >>> developmental disabilities, but because some of the "blindisms" are also >>> linked to such disabilities, I don't think it's a problem to expect >>> people who are blind to correct such behavior. I don't see this similar >>> to changing, or concealing, body parts or internal attributes associated >>> with race or ethnicity, or in the case of disabilities that can't be >>> controlled such as the functioning of eyes or missing limbs. >>> >>> In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting things into, smile, my >>> point is that body language and many facial expressions are picked up >>> through learned behavior. Whether we learn this behavior visually or >>> nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the motions- >>> acting as it were. It's the same process just done nonvisually. Just as >>> we learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with >>> computers. We're doing the same things, just in a different way. >>> >>> I also don't think we can compare certain changes nade , physically or >>> internally, indicative of race or ethnicity, to correcting social >>> behavior such as body language or facial expressions either linked to >>> other disabilities or inappropriate to a given situation. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>> Read my blog at: >>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>> >>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>> >>> Message: 7 >>> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 >>> From: Marc Workman >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups >>> Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> >>> Carly wrote, >>> How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if >>> they are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to >>> sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, >>> meaning? >>> >>> I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind >>> people to look and act like others is in itself wrong. I'm not >>> suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be >>> done, but it makes me uncomfortable. >>> >>> The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities. >>> I think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and >>> act like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and >>> still do for similar reasons. In the past, among African Americans, >>> there existed the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for >>> the purpose of appearing less black and/or more white. I can't give >>> evidence to show how common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying >>> to remove the kink from his hair himself and finding it a physically and >>> emotionally painful process. There are also surgeries performed to give >>> people of East Asian descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more >>> "white looking" noses. These are just a couple of examples. Pressuring >>> minorities to adopt the dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, >>> body language, etc also often happens. >>> >>> I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate. There >>> may be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but >>> feeling pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you >>> look more like one particular group in society is problematic to say the >>> least. So what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a >>> blind person to adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body >>> language etc of some sighted people? >>> >>> You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt. >>> There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally >>> acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have >>> to adapt. It may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" >>> are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that >>> non-whites who look and act white are more successful and integrate >>> better, but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to >>> assume the dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful. >>> >>> What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look >>> and act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of >>> differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant. Most, if not all, so >>> called blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them >>> out than I do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour >>> and appearance possessed by other minority groups. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 21:00:15 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:00:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight In-Reply-To: <000901cca7c4$bb0c0ee0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <4ec87221.a524340a.6f1e.28b6@mx.google.com><441D8B206868442F91BD7AC9EB75230D@OwnerPC> <000901cca7c4$bb0c0ee0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <9F440C711D854AC1BF1F8DAD02D4C6F2@OwnerPC> Peter, I agree; if staff are paid, the job should be done timely. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Donahue Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 3:41 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Good afternoon everyone, This seems to be a wide-spread problem in the NFB. New Web Sites and other Internet resources are announced and the resource launch fails to materialize. In other instances there are a few national Web sites with pages yet to be populated with content. If you go to them the only message you read is "Coming Soon." In one case the content for a page on one of our national Web sites has been "Coming Soon" for over two years. And this site is managed by paid staff hence I don't buy the volunteer argument. My advice to those who administer such sites either populate all of your site pages or take them down until you have content to place on them! Likewise be careful about announcing site launches until you know beyond the shadow of a doubt you can put the Web site or resource online and have all of its pages populated with site content. Another problem I've seen is affiliates who want a Web site put up pay someone to build it for them, and then communication breaks down. This actually happened to me with one of our affiliates. They asked me to build it two years ago. It wasn't until the end of June this year that their Web site was launched. Much work went in to building that Web site. In early September I was informed by this particular affiliate that they wished to take their Web site in another direction and they were working with a different developer. Had they communicated with me regularly concerning their sites content and direction I wouldn't have wasted my time building this Web site and chasing down some of their members for direction and assistance with content. If you go to this Web site you're prompted to enter a username and a password. All of my hard work is gone! A word to the wise. I'm willing to build Web sites for NFB affiliates but there must be on-going communication and you need to be perfectly clear about what you want on the site to be sure it addresses your needs. If other NFB Webmasters have been treated this way I can understand why affiliate Web sites don't launch on the promised day. I hope David can get the NABSLink Audio Site up ASAP! Otherwise why not just place audio and video content directly on the regular NABS Web Site. There was a recording of the 2009 NABS Annual Meeting in Detroit there at one time but those who took over its administration wrecked much of the work of myself and others. While I'm not trying to flame anyone in particular I thought I would give some insite as to why there are issues with NFB Web Sites from the perspective of one who administers or administered some of them. All the best for a great Thanksgiving. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Chris, if you're going to complain, maybe help them fix the problem. These are volunteers. Also, you sent over ten messages to the list, you must have finished your homework. When I was in that grade, I didn't have time to write so much due to loads of work. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Dave, we've been waiting since like August! I understand David has a bunch of stuff to take care of with his running of AudioAccessFM, but something really must be going on here, to have the Web page not work for four months, even after a change of Web hosting providers and like three emails to the list from the Webmaster himself saying that it's back up. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 21:05:17 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:05:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <4ec8722a.a524340a.6f1e.28c1@mx.google.com> References: <4ec8722a.a524340a.6f1e.28c1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <984499C602184683B2E4E3FBC486A68E@OwnerPC> Chris, A class is important to teach you this stuff for speaking/presentations. You might do that for a nfb affiliate or other group you're in. There are many situations where you have one way communication, meaning you talk to the audience. I think nonverbals could be learned and would enhance a presentation in that circumstance. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Hi Tara, That's a good point. However, I'm not sure if the class is needed. I say this because, especially in the case of those of us (like myself) who are totally blind or only have light perception, we would only get one side of the body language; that is, the body language that we display to sighted people. While this is important, especially in how we present ourselves for things like job interviews and such, we'll have no way of knowing what body language sighted people are conveying to us, no matter what classes on the subject we take. This is because, simply, we can't see the body language! So, in short, by taking the suggested body language course, we'd only get to use half of the information taught, because we can't discern what sighted people are conveying to us via body language, and therefore can't react to it. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Tara Annis References: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05@OwnerPC><2B129BF69EBF4B4993B18C63D716622B@OwnerPC><4A02D34091A5415C990D9848F6884391@OwnerPC><2930D295BB1844088443C07657851F84@OwnerPC> <212DEDFA3E9047618AC75BF5B9447F54@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <99644498E1F547E9BC1788B266266F9D@OwnerPC> Andi, I do speak with instructors ahead of time, whether it be a gym class at the health club or at school. Most instructors are not willing to be hands on; they have to lead the class and go at a certain pace. I agree that we need hands on instruction for anything movement based like dance, not just verbal cues. At least to learn the steps, being shown helps a lot. I did take kundalini yoga though and the instructor was hands on. But she also had time to do this since it was a slow paced class by its nature. Did you take dance in college? Were they elective classes? If your dance team is like mine was, they did more hip hop dances. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and actingtolearnnaturalmovementandexpressions I am sorry to hear about your experience with dance. I too have had a few classes I had to drop because of non accommodating instructors, but I was able to pick them back up with diferent instructors. I started dance in 10th grade so I am not as practised as people who started when they were five or so, but I held my own in competitions. I did not stick with it as long as I wanted once I got to college only about two years because I became to busy to keep up with it as well as I would have liked. As far as finding classes you do not need private lessons though they may be more in-depth than a beginners class.I was fortunate to have had a great instructor in high school so my first experience was posative I think that helps. I usually talked with instructors before enrolling in any class, and discussed how I learn in a more hands on way. I gave examples of how I could be taught either by me feeling the other persons movements or them moving me. Sometimes both methods are needed. I also explained that I needed to be shown the little details not just the foot work. I explained that I need to know the placement of each body part, so I wouldn't look like I was half assing it. I said I can understand a lot of what you are saying just by verbal instructions but that I will need hands on instructions for the things I do not understand verbally and it may be as frequent. Then I asked if that instructor would be willing to work with me. Some are not and that is not fun to hear but most people are willing to work with me because they are open to learning new ways of teaching. Blind people are not the only ones who need hands on training. Many sighted people need it to, though it is not as often as we do, but I saw it a lot. I also try to talk to other people who have worked with particular instructors to get a feel for them before my meeting. It is important to speek with them before like I said or you and the instructors will both be in for a surprise. I do this with workout classes at the gym to and most are willing to work with me. As for your balance dance actually helps improve balance at least it did with me. You learn to find your core and center your self. Yoga also helps with balance. However do not let someone tell you, you can not do it because you are blind. There are defenatly things we as blind people can not do, but that list is small and dancing is most defanatly not on the list. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting tolearnnaturalmovementandexpressions Hi, Due to the spelling, I suspected it was a nickname; and I've met more girls/ladies who liked dancing. But yeah guys do it too. Also in the past, its been only girls who spoke up on list regarding dance. You said you liked modern dancing; I have not met a guy who did modern dance, thought it was a girl thing. The others you did: latin ballroom, swing, and hip hop are definitely for both sexes; and yes you need a partner of the opposite sex for some of them. How many years were you on the college dance team? Was your major or minor in performing arts? You're right that colleges offer these types of beginning classes and so does the Y and county recreation centers. Were all your lessons in a class though? I've been discouraged from taking dance in a class. They do it by demonstration and go fast. In a class, the instructor teaches the guy part and the girl part separately and then once you practice it, you have a partner to do it together. I learn a little slower when it comes to gross motor moves and I am not the greatest of following directions of right and left. I've been told I can do it privately by my parents, but that is so expensive. I don't know how much Authur Murray dance studio charges, but its probably a lot. I probably could only afford 4 or five lessons. A blind friend took private tap, and he said it was $75 per lesson. I actually did try a ballroom dance at the university, and it was a disaster; the instructor was rude and did not want to accommodate. me. My vision impairment caused my feet to turn out and I walk with a gait; he said oh you have to put your feet straight to dance and that my balance was an issue. I know it is sometimes, but I said I would be dancing with a partner, and had danced before with people without falling or anything. Anyway, I'd love to try dance again. Glad you liked it and it worked out. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learnnaturalmovementandexpressions Yes I am a girl my name is Adrianne, and Andi is my nick name, it comes from my initials. However just because I did dance, that is not a reason to assume I am a girl. Their were many guys on both my dance teams and you can not do treditional or Lattin ball room or swing with out a partner. Most of the time it is a boy girl thing. Not always but tipically. When I took hip hop the guys outnumbered the girls. Actually men who dance usually get extra sex appeal points in most womens eyes. I recommend dance for everyone male or female. Like I said before it is great for gaining a more natural appearance and it is also a great way to stay in shape. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn naturalmovementandexpressions So you're a girl, Andi? -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movementandexpressions Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:44 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions I danced for many years including ballet, including pointe. It's very true that ballet dancers learn to position, and move, their bodies in inorganic ways. The motion, when done well, is very graceful and fluid, but the process to harness the technique can take years and actually can do quite a number on your body. Though other dance forms like jazz or tap are not quite as unforgiving as ballet, they still require a lot of discipline to do, especially to master. However, if wanting to learn how to move more naturally, dance certainly can help. Many professional athletes take dance, including ballet, in order to move better on the field or pitch or rink or whatever the case may be. I also have a background in theatre and minored in it when at university back in 2000. Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes. Another way to learn a more natural body movement is to take modeling classes. Now, these can cost, but so can dance and acting classes- it's something to invesigate before signing up. Modeling classes will teach you specifically how to walk and how to use your face to relay things. Models on the runway often use an unnatural gate, but in modeling class itself, you learn how to carry yourself meaning you learn how to move in a graceful, fluid manner. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:54:04 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 21:21:31 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:21:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] modeling classes Message-ID: Hi all, Bridgit spoke about modeling classes as a means of learning proper movement and how to carry oneself. She said “Another way to learn a more natural body movement is to take modeling classes. Now, these can cost, but so can dance and acting classes- it's something to invesigate before signing up. Modeling classes will teach you specifically how to walk and how to use your face to relay things. Models on the runway often use an unnatural gate, but in modeling class itself, you learn how to carry yourself meaning you learn how to move in a graceful, fluid manner.” Sounds good. I didn’t think of modeling classes. I’ve never met anyone who took one. Dance and acting classes are offered at colleges and community centers; they cover the basics because they don’t intend for people to be professionals. I wonder if people take modeling classes for the same reason, to improve how they walk, talk, and carry themselves, but not necessarily to be professoional models. I’d be curious to know if anyone took such a class and how it went. Ashley From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 20 21:43:22 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:43:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] taking acting classes Message-ID: Hi all, What Bridgit said about acting class brought back memories. She said ”Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes.” Bridgit, you have a minor in theatre; I haven’t met a blind person who did that before. Of course you were sighted, so can draw upon your experience learning facial expressions and visual expressions. Did you braille the script for memorizing it? I cannot memorize by listening except for song lyrics! I’m wondering how a blind actor would move around the stage safely. I mean you have obstacles up there and won’t have your cane since you’re another character. I just depended on my vision. Interesting that Bridgit says acting class pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. I don’t recall that happening. We did focus on voice though; like volume, tone and expression. I took acting in high school and the teacher was very easy. I did not learn much from it. We spent too much time watching movies rather than acting. But I won’t forget our final where we had to do a monologue. That was hard! I prefered working with a partner because their words clued me into what I had to say. In college, I also took acting. We did a number of things. They ranged from partner work acting scenes, improvization, something like sherades where you stand in front of everyone and pretend to do a day activity, and of course actual acting with small groups or a partner. We did warmups to loosen up; the instructor was very accomodating and showed me these stretches and exercises. I enjoyed it. Our acting exercises revolved around sensory awareness, and a lot of this was not visual. A few were visual exercises which we adapted; like mimicking what someone did with their hands. She stressed to be aware of all your senses and surroundings. For instance, we did an exercise that you responded to someone’s tone. Another was where you simply went and touched a classmate’s hand. She guided us in what to observe. Was it rough or soft? Rinkled or smooth? Boney? I guessed the guy I touched was athletic due to his large muscular hands, and If I remember correctly, I was right. She did say you had to show expression, but not just facial expressions, but expressions and movement with your whole body. We were definitely judged on our performance by peers and the instructor who herself was an actress. Still, it was fun. She never said anything about me needing to be visually expressive, so maybe I was expressive enough as my girl characters, or maybe it didn’t occur to her to say anything. Oh, we did not watch movies either. So, I got a lot out of the class. For the acting scenes, I asked the school to braille them. I got an A in the class. Ashley From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 22:52:01 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:52:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> I have been reading threw the portion of this thread related to concealing aspects of oneself and/or changing behavior to fit into the mold of what is considered "normal" by society. It is a very interesting question, and I find the arguments advanced by Marc and Arielle quite persuasive. I can't, however, shake the feeling that blind kids should be discouraged from rocking or engaging in other behavior that is considered outside the mainstream. First, let me say, I couldn't agree more that the call for blind folks to hide their eyes if they look abnormal is misguided, and, frankly, fairly offensive. I am 100% on board with the notion that we need not, and in fact should not, hide part of what and who we are simply for the comfort or convenience of others. If somebody wants to wear sunglasses that is entirely their decision, and there is absolutely no problem with it, but nobody ought to be suggesting that anybody do so for anybody else's benefit. Regarding the question of so called "blindisms," I tend to agree with Greg that we have precious little choice but to be pragmatic about the issue and dissuade blind folks from rocking, poking, etc., if we want them to be set up to compete and succeed socially and professionally. I might cede the point that, in an ideal world, folks wouldn't be judged on such ultimately inconsequential attributes. However, if I were to grant this point, I would do so with some reluctance. How far does this go by logical extension? What if I like to eat my pasta and salad with my hands rather than a fork and knife? Should people just accept that and move on, or is there some real value in conforming to social norms there? The same question could just as easily be asked regarding a sighted child who prefers to eat with his hands. Is that Ok? Would an ideal society accept that as something that harms nobody; merely a personal preference to be respected? I don't see how the answer to the former can be "yes," and the latter "no." Maybe that's Ok, but it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what we deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval of it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. Finally, related to nonverbal communication, you won't catch me dropping fat cash on modeling classes in the hopes of appropriately arching my eyebrows at just the right moment, but I think the basics are important. As has been said, many facial expressions are built in. I have never been taught how to look happy, sad, or irritated, but when I feel it, I look it. Perhaps this is different for everybody, but some basic animation in the face seems to come pretty naturally. And, for the record, I have never seen a face. Facing somebody when in conversation and shaking hands when introduced would seem to fall into the realm of common courtesy. They're social norms, to be sure, but I see absolutely no reason that blind individuals shouldn't be expected to adopt these norms like anybody else. I am not saying that anybody has argued that we shouldn't be expected to do so, but we should. If I meet somebody and they don't offer a hand, barring some obvious reason not to, it seems rude. This ties back into the above point that once we accept that some people will rock, etc., we might have to accept a lot of other actions, or lacks of action, based on the same rationale. Take care, Sean From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 01:24:33 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:24:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> References: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> Message-ID: Sean, I believe eating with one's hands is more common than using silverware in some cultures. So, eating with silverware is another example of a norm that is culturally constructed but is largely arbitrary, and as far as I know, eating with one's hands never harms anyone. I fail to see why eating with the hands would be discouraged in an "ideal" society, unless you are arguing that an "ideal" society is one in which people always conform to common standards, and I think Marc is arguing the opposite point. I think expecting blind people to conform to sighted norms is similar to expecting someone from a culture where eating is done with the hands to use a fork and spoon. There is definitely merit to both sides of this larger issue, but the issue of whether or not to expect conformity in general strays from the blindness realm. >From a pragmatic perspective, I think it is beneficial to give blind children as many tools as possible to attain success and acceptance, including information about how the sighted majority behaves and what they expect. As blind children grow into adulthood, they can make their own choices about how much they want to conform and satisfy the expectations of others versus maintaining their individual identities. This is a balance that all people deal with, sighted and blind. Best, Arielle On 11/20/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > I have been reading threw the portion of this thread related to concealing > aspects of oneself and/or changing behavior to fit into the mold of what is > considered "normal" by society. It is a very interesting question, and I > find the arguments advanced by Marc and Arielle quite persuasive. I can't, > however, shake the feeling that blind kids should be discouraged from > rocking or engaging in other behavior that is considered outside the > mainstream. > > > > First, let me say, I couldn't agree more that the call for blind folks to > hide their eyes if they look abnormal is misguided, and, frankly, fairly > offensive. I am 100% on board with the notion that we need not, and in fact > should not, hide part of what and who we are simply for the comfort or > convenience of others. If somebody wants to wear sunglasses that is entirely > their decision, and there is absolutely no problem with it, but nobody ought > to be suggesting that anybody do so for anybody else's benefit. > > > > Regarding the question of so called "blindisms," I tend to agree with Greg > that we have precious little choice but to be pragmatic about the issue and > dissuade blind folks from rocking, poking, etc., if we want them to be set > up to compete and succeed socially and professionally. I might cede the > point that, in an ideal world, folks wouldn't be judged on such ultimately > inconsequential attributes. However, if I were to grant this point, I would > do so with some reluctance. How far does this go by logical extension? What > if I like to eat my pasta and salad with my hands rather than a fork and > knife? Should people just accept that and move on, or is there some real > value in conforming to social norms there? The same question could just as > easily be asked regarding a sighted child who prefers to eat with his hands. > Is that Ok? Would an ideal society accept that as something that harms > nobody; merely a personal preference to be respected? I don't see how the > answer to the former can be "yes," and the latter "no." Maybe that's Ok, but > it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what we > deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our > society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval of > it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling > blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we > ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. > > > > Finally, related to nonverbal communication, you won't catch me dropping fat > cash on modeling classes in the hopes of appropriately arching my eyebrows > at just the right moment, but I think the basics are important. As has been > said, many facial expressions are built in. I have never been taught how to > look happy, sad, or irritated, but when I feel it, I look it. Perhaps this > is different for everybody, but some basic animation in the face seems to > come pretty naturally. And, for the record, I have never seen a face. > > > > Facing somebody when in conversation and shaking hands when introduced would > seem to fall into the realm of common courtesy. They're social norms, to be > sure, but I see absolutely no reason that blind individuals shouldn't be > expected to adopt these norms like anybody else. I am not saying that > anybody has argued that we shouldn't be expected to do so, but we should. If > I meet somebody and they don't offer a hand, barring some obvious reason not > to, it seems rude. This ties back into the above point that once we accept > that some people will rock, etc., we might have to accept a lot of other > actions, or lacks of action, based on the same rationale. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 01:54:51 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:54:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> References: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> Message-ID: Sean wrote, it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what we deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval of it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. I think you're right that the argument potentially has far-reaching implications. I'm not sure that this isn't a good thing though. Part of what drives my thinking is seeing an analogy with the experiences of other minorities. I said a bit about race, but I think gender works as well. Consider the example of a woman not shaving her legs. This is something that can cause discomfort and even disgust among men and women alike. I think it's a fairly well-entrenched social norm that women will shave their legs, particularly when wearing shorts or skirts. Now if a woman who chooses not to shave her legs has significantly diminished social and professional opportunities as a result, this just strikes me as wrong. And the solution isn't to get the woman to shave her legs, it's to break down the rigidity of the norm. Extending that further, if a person with male biology chooses to dress the way women typically dress, that person is more likely to be socially isolated, to have limited professional opportunities, to experience physical and verbal abuse, and to contemplate and attempt suicide. This again strikes me as obviously wrong, and the fault is with the rigidity of the gender norms and their overt and subtle enforcement. So I would say that many of our social norms ought to be challenged and broken down. Wether eating salad with ones hands is among these, I can't really say. Some social norms are not strictly a matter of convention; they are based on health concerns. It may be that eating with one's hands increases the likelihood of spreading germs and disease and can be discouraged on those grounds. Personally, though, I think a little relaxation of the norms around the dinner table wouldn't be a terrible thing. The use of the phrase "foundation of our society" makes me wonder if it isn't being suggested that social norms are necessary for a society to exist or function. I really don't know. It seems likely that we need to share in common at least some expectations about how others will behave. But I am really confident that at least some norms do serious damage and ought to be challenged, and I'm pretty confident that it would be better for everyone if most norms were at least relaxed. Among these, I would include the sorts of ones related to blindness that we've been discussing. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-20, at 3:52 PM, Sean Whalen wrote: > I have been reading threw the portion of this thread related to concealing > aspects of oneself and/or changing behavior to fit into the mold of what is > considered "normal" by society. It is a very interesting question, and I > find the arguments advanced by Marc and Arielle quite persuasive. I can't, > however, shake the feeling that blind kids should be discouraged from > rocking or engaging in other behavior that is considered outside the > mainstream. > > > > First, let me say, I couldn't agree more that the call for blind folks to > hide their eyes if they look abnormal is misguided, and, frankly, fairly > offensive. I am 100% on board with the notion that we need not, and in fact > should not, hide part of what and who we are simply for the comfort or > convenience of others. If somebody wants to wear sunglasses that is entirely > their decision, and there is absolutely no problem with it, but nobody ought > to be suggesting that anybody do so for anybody else's benefit. > > > > Regarding the question of so called "blindisms," I tend to agree with Greg > that we have precious little choice but to be pragmatic about the issue and > dissuade blind folks from rocking, poking, etc., if we want them to be set > up to compete and succeed socially and professionally. I might cede the > point that, in an ideal world, folks wouldn't be judged on such ultimately > inconsequential attributes. However, if I were to grant this point, I would > do so with some reluctance. How far does this go by logical extension? What > if I like to eat my pasta and salad with my hands rather than a fork and > knife? Should people just accept that and move on, or is there some real > value in conforming to social norms there? The same question could just as > easily be asked regarding a sighted child who prefers to eat with his hands. > Is that Ok? Would an ideal society accept that as something that harms > nobody; merely a personal preference to be respected? I don't see how the > answer to the former can be "yes," and the latter "no." Maybe that's Ok, but > it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what we > deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our > society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval of > it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling > blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we > ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. > > > > Finally, related to nonverbal communication, you won't catch me dropping fat > cash on modeling classes in the hopes of appropriately arching my eyebrows > at just the right moment, but I think the basics are important. As has been > said, many facial expressions are built in. I have never been taught how to > look happy, sad, or irritated, but when I feel it, I look it. Perhaps this > is different for everybody, but some basic animation in the face seems to > come pretty naturally. And, for the record, I have never seen a face. > > > > Facing somebody when in conversation and shaking hands when introduced would > seem to fall into the realm of common courtesy. They're social norms, to be > sure, but I see absolutely no reason that blind individuals shouldn't be > expected to adopt these norms like anybody else. I am not saying that > anybody has argued that we shouldn't be expected to do so, but we should. If > I meet somebody and they don't offer a hand, barring some obvious reason not > to, it seems rude. This ties back into the above point that once we accept > that some people will rock, etc., we might have to accept a lot of other > actions, or lacks of action, based on the same rationale. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From carlymih at earthlink.net Mon Nov 21 02:22:46 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:22:46 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups In-Reply-To: <41DF15E9F6FB4D2D945D948D177865B0@OwnerPC> References: <4ec8722a.a524340a.6f1e.28c1@mx.google.com> <41DF15E9F6FB4D2D945D948D177865B0@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111120182142.01e519e8@earthlink.net> HI, List, Can others hear people's facial expressions, changing or is that just me?2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >Actually, Chris, if you are observant and listen, you can pick up on >some body language. Not in a crowd, but if its one to one or a small >group in a quiet room, you will hear things. Some examples. You can >hear hand gestures because it sounds different when people talk, >you'll just sense their movement. You can hear expressions as well, >and if you hear them in a voice, likely they are facial visual >expressions too. You can hear a smile. Also a high pitched, fast >voice means happiness or surprise. I wish I could act it to show >you! But that is how I can describe it. Someone might say "Hi >Ashley, its great to see you again!" and I know they are cheerful, I >don't need to see it to know, but usually can see a smile. >You can also hear sounds of shoes on a tile or wooden floor. High >heels make a certain noise; men's dockers sound kind of like a clop >clop sound. You can also hear bracelets rattling against each other. >You can definitely pick up on some nonverbal expressions by >listening to how people act. True not as much, but you can do some. > >Ashley > >-----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:20 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > >Hi Tara, > >That's a good point. However, I'm not sure if the class is >needed. I say this because, especially in the case of those of >us (like myself) who are totally blind or only have light >perception, we would only get one side of the body language; that >is, the body language that we display to sighted people. While >this is important, especially in how we present ourselves for >things like job interviews and such, we'll have no way of knowing >what body language sighted people are conveying to us, no matter >what classes on the subject we take. This is because, simply, we >can't see the body language! So, in short, by taking the >suggested body language course, we'd only get to use half of the >information taught, because we can't discern what sighted people >are conveying to us via body language, and therefore can't react >to it. > >Chris > >"The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The >real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that >exists. If a blind person has the proper training and >opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical >nuisance." >-- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, >1968-1986 > >P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired >youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through >providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and >conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. >For more information about the Foundation and to support our >work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! > >Sent from my BrailleNote Apex > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Tara Annis To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Date sent: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:20:31 -0500 >Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > >I think the first step in helping blind people to get their >feelings across to the sighted is to understand what is >considered ignorance and what is considered outright teasing and >cruelty in public. Many of the meanest things are just said with >one word and a lot of body language. Many people who hate >blind people speak in a nice manner, but exhibit cruelty in >their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, >but some, do lack discernment in this area, especially if they >are blind from birth and a sighted person does not take the time >to explain nonverbal communication. I think the first step would >be for an honest sighted person to follow a blind person around >and interpret the visual elements to the blind person, so that >the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties. I think one >of the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are >not attempting to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through >body language, like rolling one's eyes. Most sighted people use >nonverbal communication to show when they are irritated by >another person. If the person continues to be annoying, the >person will then use verbal communication. That is why sighted >people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their >anger, instead of visually displaying it. I would like to see a >class where advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since >currently it seems there are just the basics taught, like >facing the person you are talking to and shaking hands. There is >not a class in how to display the various ways of shooing >levels of discomfort, from annoyed, slightly irritated, >somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that >sometimes it is necessary to actively create facial expressions >and body movements, as opposed to letting one's body language >depict their true feelings. Personally, I was surprised at the >amount of communication that is displayed nonverbally, that >sighted people watch me from across a large college campus, or >from way down the street, and are making judgments about me from >my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I >am more comfortable around sighted people, and am in control >of getting my feelings across. The great thing about learning >all this stuff is that I have seen the amount of ignorance I >faced by sighted people diminish significantly. It is a 50/50 >situation: blind people need to do their half of helping get >rid of ignorance and sighted people need to be willing to do >their half. >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >m%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 21 03:38:12 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:38:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> Message-ID: <6A68006898124EF6A5201E663837BF69@OwnerPC> Arielle, I think the federation philosophy stresses blending in and conformity. After all we want to eliminate stereotypes and fit in. Remember Mr. Omvig's book the Secret to Empowerment? He covered as an ingredient of training to be well dressed and show an appropriate appearance; so grooming, clothes, manners, that sort of thing falls into this area. Those who do not communicate well and observe social norms are outcasted, whether sighted or blind. But if we do something odd, its not because we're just being ourselves, its attributed to blindness, whether the cause is blindness or something else like a personality querk. Children learn what is socially right and social norms from observation; so as Bridgit said, we should learn those things too growing up. As adults we can choose what to do. But if we do not have that information, we cannot choose. So I'd be curious to know if anyone has learned nonverbals and incorporated them into their daily communication habits. As to the question of accepting people who eat with their hands, I'd say no. In our culture, we eat with silverware except for finger foods such as fries, chips, and sandwiches. There is no reason a blind person cannot learn these table manners and how to eat. When and how to eat is a culture thing. So, we should know what the culture does. If I went to some Asian country, it would be accepted and yes expected to eat with the hands. So do what the culture does. But here in America, its silverware. And, people can and do notice long after you've gone about your manners. Here is an example. I interned at National library service, NLS, and one outspoken guy from another section often ate with me in the lunch room. He told me that a certain blind person was not the cleanest eater. He further said that he saw past blind employees eating with their hands and found that gross and he told them it wasn't right and may have suggested they learn to eat right. So people do notice your behavior, especially bad behavior. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Sean, I believe eating with one's hands is more common than using silverware in some cultures. So, eating with silverware is another example of a norm that is culturally constructed but is largely arbitrary, and as far as I know, eating with one's hands never harms anyone. I fail to see why eating with the hands would be discouraged in an "ideal" society, unless you are arguing that an "ideal" society is one in which people always conform to common standards, and I think Marc is arguing the opposite point. I think expecting blind people to conform to sighted norms is similar to expecting someone from a culture where eating is done with the hands to use a fork and spoon. There is definitely merit to both sides of this larger issue, but the issue of whether or not to expect conformity in general strays from the blindness realm. >From a pragmatic perspective, I think it is beneficial to give blind children as many tools as possible to attain success and acceptance, including information about how the sighted majority behaves and what they expect. As blind children grow into adulthood, they can make their own choices about how much they want to conform and satisfy the expectations of others versus maintaining their individual identities. This is a balance that all people deal with, sighted and blind. Best, Arielle On 11/20/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > I have been reading threw the portion of this thread related to concealing > aspects of oneself and/or changing behavior to fit into the mold of what > is > considered "normal" by society. It is a very interesting question, and I > find the arguments advanced by Marc and Arielle quite persuasive. I can't, > however, shake the feeling that blind kids should be discouraged from > rocking or engaging in other behavior that is considered outside the > mainstream. > > > > First, let me say, I couldn't agree more that the call for blind folks to > hide their eyes if they look abnormal is misguided, and, frankly, fairly > offensive. I am 100% on board with the notion that we need not, and in > fact > should not, hide part of what and who we are simply for the comfort or > convenience of others. If somebody wants to wear sunglasses that is > entirely > their decision, and there is absolutely no problem with it, but nobody > ought > to be suggesting that anybody do so for anybody else's benefit. > > > > Regarding the question of so called "blindisms," I tend to agree with Greg > that we have precious little choice but to be pragmatic about the issue > and > dissuade blind folks from rocking, poking, etc., if we want them to be set > up to compete and succeed socially and professionally. I might cede the > point that, in an ideal world, folks wouldn't be judged on such ultimately > inconsequential attributes. However, if I were to grant this point, I > would > do so with some reluctance. How far does this go by logical extension? > What > if I like to eat my pasta and salad with my hands rather than a fork and > knife? Should people just accept that and move on, or is there some real > value in conforming to social norms there? The same question could just as > easily be asked regarding a sighted child who prefers to eat with his > hands. > Is that Ok? Would an ideal society accept that as something that harms > nobody; merely a personal preference to be respected? I don't see how the > answer to the former can be "yes," and the latter "no." Maybe that's Ok, > but > it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what we > deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our > society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval > of > it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling > blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we > ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. > > > > Finally, related to nonverbal communication, you won't catch me dropping > fat > cash on modeling classes in the hopes of appropriately arching my eyebrows > at just the right moment, but I think the basics are important. As has > been > said, many facial expressions are built in. I have never been taught how > to > look happy, sad, or irritated, but when I feel it, I look it. Perhaps this > is different for everybody, but some basic animation in the face seems to > come pretty naturally. And, for the record, I have never seen a face. > > > > Facing somebody when in conversation and shaking hands when introduced > would > seem to fall into the realm of common courtesy. They're social norms, to > be > sure, but I see absolutely no reason that blind individuals shouldn't be > expected to adopt these norms like anybody else. I am not saying that > anybody has argued that we shouldn't be expected to do so, but we should. > If > I meet somebody and they don't offer a hand, barring some obvious reason > not > to, it seems rude. This ties back into the above point that once we accept > that some people will rock, etc., we might have to accept a lot of other > actions, or lacks of action, based on the same rationale. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 21 03:52:25 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:52:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> Message-ID: <5D8C26A915224351978C64DF0EB6CC32@OwnerPC> social norms are part of what holds a society together. And the things we are discussing with respect to blind people are observed across race, genders, and religions. We have ideas about how to talk, our paralanguage, how to dress, eating manners, and how to greet each other. Based on the behaviorI've seen, I think some blind people could sure benefit from learning manners as Tara suggested earlier. Also, I'll add you have subcultures and norms within groups. How do we know those? Sighted people learn by observation. I mean norms of informal vs formal, unspoken rules of what to discuss or not discuss, how to dress and sit, etc. I guess the best way is to ask and observe with our other senses. The norms in a church are different than a party; and norms vary even from church to church as an example. As for the norms of the dinner table, IMO its already informal. Go to an average restaurant like Five Guys, TGI fridays, or Olive Garden. Many places don't have the fancy silverware, cloth tables, and folded cloth napkins that are indicative of a formal dining experience. People dress very casually. As my father said, you often don't have to dress up to go out to dinner now, its becoming a casual society. Another example, ten years ago, my grandmother's retirement facility expected nice dress for dinner; men in a nice suit or coat and tie. For women, something dressy like a skirt, slacks and blouse. Now, the dress is more casual. As for dinner manners, we still use silverware as a culture even at fast food restaurants, but the way we eat seems more relaxed. I mean how many people always put their napkin in their lap? How many people eat with the right fork for salad? How many people even wipe off their hands well after eating? These are typical manners at dinner, especially a public restaurant. As a society, we have gotten more relaxed about norms. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Sean wrote, it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what we deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval of it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. I think you're right that the argument potentially has far-reaching implications. I'm not sure that this isn't a good thing though. Part of what drives my thinking is seeing an analogy with the experiences of other minorities. I said a bit about race, but I think gender works as well. Consider the example of a woman not shaving her legs. This is something that can cause discomfort and even disgust among men and women alike. I think it's a fairly well-entrenched social norm that women will shave their legs, particularly when wearing shorts or skirts. Now if a woman who chooses not to shave her legs has significantly diminished social and professional opportunities as a result, this just strikes me as wrong. And the solution isn't to get the woman to shave her legs, it's to break down the rigidity of the norm. Extending that further, if a person with male biology chooses to dress the way women typically dress, that person is more likely to be socially isolated, to have limited professional opportunities, to experience physical and verbal abuse, and to contemplate and attempt suicide. This again strikes me as obviously wrong, and the fault is with the rigidity of the gender norms and their overt and subtle enforcement. So I would say that many of our social norms ought to be challenged and broken down. Wether eating salad with ones hands is among these, I can't really say. Some social norms are not strictly a matter of convention; they are based on health concerns. It may be that eating with one's hands increases the likelihood of spreading germs and disease and can be discouraged on those grounds. Personally, though, I think a little relaxation of the norms around the dinner table wouldn't be a terrible thing. The use of the phrase "foundation of our society" makes me wonder if it isn't being suggested that social norms are necessary for a society to exist or function. I really don't know. It seems likely that we need to share in common at least some expectations about how others will behave. But I am really confident that at least some norms do serious damage and ought to be challenged, and I'm pretty confident that it would be better for everyone if most norms were at least relaxed. Among these, I would include the sorts of ones related to blindness that we've been discussing. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-20, at 3:52 PM, Sean Whalen wrote: > I have been reading threw the portion of this thread related to concealing > aspects of oneself and/or changing behavior to fit into the mold of what > is > considered "normal" by society. It is a very interesting question, and I > find the arguments advanced by Marc and Arielle quite persuasive. I can't, > however, shake the feeling that blind kids should be discouraged from > rocking or engaging in other behavior that is considered outside the > mainstream. > > > > First, let me say, I couldn't agree more that the call for blind folks to > hide their eyes if they look abnormal is misguided, and, frankly, fairly > offensive. I am 100% on board with the notion that we need not, and in > fact > should not, hide part of what and who we are simply for the comfort or > convenience of others. If somebody wants to wear sunglasses that is > entirely > their decision, and there is absolutely no problem with it, but nobody > ought > to be suggesting that anybody do so for anybody else's benefit. > > > > Regarding the question of so called "blindisms," I tend to agree with Greg > that we have precious little choice but to be pragmatic about the issue > and > dissuade blind folks from rocking, poking, etc., if we want them to be set > up to compete and succeed socially and professionally. I might cede the > point that, in an ideal world, folks wouldn't be judged on such ultimately > inconsequential attributes. However, if I were to grant this point, I > would > do so with some reluctance. How far does this go by logical extension? > What > if I like to eat my pasta and salad with my hands rather than a fork and > knife? Should people just accept that and move on, or is there some real > value in conforming to social norms there? The same question could just as > easily be asked regarding a sighted child who prefers to eat with his > hands. > Is that Ok? Would an ideal society accept that as something that harms > nobody; merely a personal preference to be respected? I don't see how the > answer to the former can be "yes," and the latter "no." Maybe that's Ok, > but > it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what we > deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our > society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval > of > it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling > blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we > ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. > > > > Finally, related to nonverbal communication, you won't catch me dropping > fat > cash on modeling classes in the hopes of appropriately arching my eyebrows > at just the right moment, but I think the basics are important. As has > been > said, many facial expressions are built in. I have never been taught how > to > look happy, sad, or irritated, but when I feel it, I look it. Perhaps this > is different for everybody, but some basic animation in the face seems to > come pretty naturally. And, for the record, I have never seen a face. > > > > Facing somebody when in conversation and shaking hands when introduced > would > seem to fall into the realm of common courtesy. They're social norms, to > be > sure, but I see absolutely no reason that blind individuals shouldn't be > expected to adopt these norms like anybody else. I am not saying that > anybody has argued that we shouldn't be expected to do so, but we should. > If > I meet somebody and they don't offer a hand, barring some obvious reason > not > to, it seems rude. This ties back into the above point that once we accept > that some people will rock, etc., we might have to accept a lot of other > actions, or lacks of action, based on the same rationale. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 04:41:49 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:41:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <6A68006898124EF6A5201E663837BF69@OwnerPC> References: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> <6A68006898124EF6A5201E663837BF69@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <53EAF242-4507-44B9-A02A-366B264C24F5@gmail.com> Ashley wrote, > So do what the culture does. Fortunately, throughout history, there have been many people who have not simply went along with cultural norms. If Americans had never challenged cultural norms, you'd still have slaves, women wouldn't be able to vote, and blind people would only ever have jobs in sheltered workshops. You might reformulate to say, do what the culture does if what the culture does is right. But then you have to ask if excluding and discriminating on the basis of arbitrary and irrelevant characteristics/behaviours is right. I would say that it isn't myself. Best, Marc On 2011-11-20, at 8:38 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > I think the federation philosophy stresses blending in and conformity. After all we want to eliminate stereotypes and > fit in. Remember Mr. Omvig's book the Secret to Empowerment? He covered as an ingredient of training to be well dressed and show an appropriate appearance; so grooming, clothes, manners, that sort of thing falls into this area. > > Those who do not communicate well and observe social norms are outcasted, whether sighted or blind. But if we do something odd, its not because we're just being ourselves, its attributed to blindness, whether the cause is blindness or something else like a personality querk. > Children learn what is socially right and social norms from observation; so as Bridgit said, we should learn those things too growing up. > As adults we can choose what to do. But if we do not have that information, we cannot choose. > So I'd be curious to know if anyone has learned nonverbals and incorporated them into their daily communication habits. > > As to the question of accepting people who eat with their hands, I'd say no. In our culture, we eat with silverware except for finger foods such as fries, chips, and sandwiches. There is no reason a blind person cannot learn these table manners and how to eat. When and how to eat is a culture thing. So, we should know what the culture does. If I went to some > Asian country, it would be accepted and yes expected to eat with the hands. So do what the culture does. But here in America, its silverware. And, people can and do notice long after you've gone about your manners. > > Here is an example. I interned at National library service, NLS, and one outspoken guy from another section often ate with me in the lunch room. He told me that a certain blind person was not the cleanest eater. He further said that he saw past blind employees eating with their hands and found that gross and he told them it wasn't right and may have suggested they learn to eat right. So people do notice your behavior, especially bad behavior. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > Sean, > I believe eating with one's hands is more common than using silverware > in some cultures. So, eating with silverware is another example of a > norm that is culturally constructed but is largely arbitrary, and as > far as I know, eating with one's hands never harms anyone. I fail to > see why eating with the hands would be discouraged in an "ideal" > society, unless you are arguing that an "ideal" society is one in > which people always conform to common standards, and I think Marc is > arguing the opposite point. I think expecting blind people to conform > to sighted norms is similar to expecting someone from a culture where > eating is done with the hands to use a fork and spoon. There is > definitely merit to both sides of this larger issue, but the issue of > whether or not to expect conformity in general strays from the > blindness realm. > From a pragmatic perspective, I think it is beneficial to give blind > children as many tools as possible to attain success and acceptance, > including information about how the sighted majority behaves and what > they expect. As blind children grow into adulthood, they can make > their own choices about how much they want to conform and satisfy the > expectations of others versus maintaining their individual identities. > This is a balance that all people deal with, sighted and blind. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/20/11, Sean Whalen wrote: >> I have been reading threw the portion of this thread related to concealing >> aspects of oneself and/or changing behavior to fit into the mold of what is >> considered "normal" by society. It is a very interesting question, and I >> find the arguments advanced by Marc and Arielle quite persuasive. I can't, >> however, shake the feeling that blind kids should be discouraged from >> rocking or engaging in other behavior that is considered outside the >> mainstream. >> >> >> >> First, let me say, I couldn't agree more that the call for blind folks to >> hide their eyes if they look abnormal is misguided, and, frankly, fairly >> offensive. I am 100% on board with the notion that we need not, and in fact >> should not, hide part of what and who we are simply for the comfort or >> convenience of others. If somebody wants to wear sunglasses that is entirely >> their decision, and there is absolutely no problem with it, but nobody ought >> to be suggesting that anybody do so for anybody else's benefit. >> >> >> >> Regarding the question of so called "blindisms," I tend to agree with Greg >> that we have precious little choice but to be pragmatic about the issue and >> dissuade blind folks from rocking, poking, etc., if we want them to be set >> up to compete and succeed socially and professionally. I might cede the >> point that, in an ideal world, folks wouldn't be judged on such ultimately >> inconsequential attributes. However, if I were to grant this point, I would >> do so with some reluctance. How far does this go by logical extension? What >> if I like to eat my pasta and salad with my hands rather than a fork and >> knife? Should people just accept that and move on, or is there some real >> value in conforming to social norms there? The same question could just as >> easily be asked regarding a sighted child who prefers to eat with his hands. >> Is that Ok? Would an ideal society accept that as something that harms >> nobody; merely a personal preference to be respected? I don't see how the >> answer to the former can be "yes," and the latter "no." Maybe that's Ok, but >> it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what we >> deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our >> society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval of >> it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling >> blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we >> ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. >> >> >> >> Finally, related to nonverbal communication, you won't catch me dropping fat >> cash on modeling classes in the hopes of appropriately arching my eyebrows >> at just the right moment, but I think the basics are important. As has been >> said, many facial expressions are built in. I have never been taught how to >> look happy, sad, or irritated, but when I feel it, I look it. Perhaps this >> is different for everybody, but some basic animation in the face seems to >> come pretty naturally. And, for the record, I have never seen a face. >> >> >> >> Facing somebody when in conversation and shaking hands when introduced would >> seem to fall into the realm of common courtesy. They're social norms, to be >> sure, but I see absolutely no reason that blind individuals shouldn't be >> expected to adopt these norms like anybody else. I am not saying that >> anybody has argued that we shouldn't be expected to do so, but we should. If >> I meet somebody and they don't offer a hand, barring some obvious reason not >> to, it seems rude. This ties back into the above point that once we accept >> that some people will rock, etc., we might have to accept a lot of other >> actions, or lacks of action, based on the same rationale. >> >> >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Sean >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Mon Nov 21 04:50:20 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (SA Mobile) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:50:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <6A68006898124EF6A5201E663837BF69@OwnerPC> References: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> <6A68006898124EF6A5201E663837BF69@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5CCA63DF-DE5E-416E-8015-BE8CFB9FC7C9@samobile.net> Learning socially appropriate behaviors is one thing, but I'm starting to think we take it way too seriously to the point of hurting ourselves. At some point, enough is enough. For me, that's what this entire conversation was about starting with Arielle's very first post on blindness and other minorities. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone On 20/11/2011, at 9:38 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Arielle, > I think the federation philosophy stresses blending in and conformity. After all we want to eliminate stereotypes and > fit in. Remember Mr. Omvig's book the Secret to Empowerment? He covered as an ingredient of training to be well dressed and show an appropriate appearance; so grooming, clothes, manners, that sort of thing falls into this area. > > Those who do not communicate well and observe social norms are outcasted, whether sighted or blind. But if we do something odd, its not because we're just being ourselves, its attributed to blindness, whether the cause is blindness or something else like a personality querk. > Children learn what is socially right and social norms from observation; so as Bridgit said, we should learn those things too growing up. > As adults we can choose what to do. But if we do not have that information, we cannot choose. > So I'd be curious to know if anyone has learned nonverbals and incorporated them into their daily communication habits. > > As to the question of accepting people who eat with their hands, I'd say no. In our culture, we eat with silverware except for finger foods such as fries, chips, and sandwiches. There is no reason a blind person cannot learn these table manners and how to eat. When and how to eat is a culture thing. So, we should know what the culture does. If I went to some > Asian country, it would be accepted and yes expected to eat with the hands. So do what the culture does. But here in America, its silverware. And, people can and do notice long after you've gone about your manners. > > Here is an example. I interned at National library service, NLS, and one outspoken guy from another section often ate with me in the lunch room. He told me that a certain blind person was not the cleanest eater. He further said that he saw past blind employees eating with their hands and found that gross and he told them it wasn't right and may have suggested they learn to eat right. So people do notice your behavior, especially bad behavior. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > > Sean, > I believe eating with one's hands is more common than using silverware > in some cultures. So, eating with silverware is another example of a > norm that is culturally constructed but is largely arbitrary, and as > far as I know, eating with one's hands never harms anyone. I fail to > see why eating with the hands would be discouraged in an "ideal" > society, unless you are arguing that an "ideal" society is one in > which people always conform to common standards, and I think Marc is > arguing the opposite point. I think expecting blind people to conform > to sighted norms is similar to expecting someone from a culture where > eating is done with the hands to use a fork and spoon. There is > definitely merit to both sides of this larger issue, but the issue of > whether or not to expect conformity in general strays from the > blindness realm. >> From a pragmatic perspective, I think it is beneficial to give blind > children as many tools as possible to attain success and acceptance, > including information about how the sighted majority behaves and what > they expect. As blind children grow into adulthood, they can make > their own choices about how much they want to conform and satisfy the > expectations of others versus maintaining their individual identities. > This is a balance that all people deal with, sighted and blind. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/20/11, Sean Whalen wrote: >> I have been reading threw the portion of this thread related to concealing >> aspects of oneself and/or changing behavior to fit into the mold of what is >> considered "normal" by society. It is a very interesting question, and I >> find the arguments advanced by Marc and Arielle quite persuasive. I can't, >> however, shake the feeling that blind kids should be discouraged from >> rocking or engaging in other behavior that is considered outside the >> mainstream. >> >> >> >> First, let me say, I couldn't agree more that the call for blind folks to >> hide their eyes if they look abnormal is misguided, and, frankly, fairly >> offensive. I am 100% on board with the notion that we need not, and in fact >> should not, hide part of what and who we are simply for the comfort or >> convenience of others. If somebody wants to wear sunglasses that is entirely >> their decision, and there is absolutely no problem with it, but nobody ought >> to be suggesting that anybody do so for anybody else's benefit. >> >> >> >> Regarding the question of so called "blindisms," I tend to agree with Greg >> that we have precious little choice but to be pragmatic about the issue and >> dissuade blind folks from rocking, poking, etc., if we want them to be set >> up to compete and succeed socially and professionally. I might cede the >> point that, in an ideal world, folks wouldn't be judged on such ultimately >> inconsequential attributes. However, if I were to grant this point, I would >> do so with some reluctance. How far does this go by logical extension? What >> if I like to eat my pasta and salad with my hands rather than a fork and >> knife? Should people just accept that and move on, or is there some real >> value in conforming to social norms there? The same question could just as >> easily be asked regarding a sighted child who prefers to eat with his hands. >> Is that Ok? Would an ideal society accept that as something that harms >> nobody; merely a personal preference to be respected? I don't see how the >> answer to the former can be "yes," and the latter "no." Maybe that's Ok, but >> it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what we >> deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our >> society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval of >> it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling >> blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we >> ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. >> >> >> >> Finally, related to nonverbal communication, you won't catch me dropping fat >> cash on modeling classes in the hopes of appropriately arching my eyebrows >> at just the right moment, but I think the basics are important. As has been >> said, many facial expressions are built in. I have never been taught how to >> look happy, sad, or irritated, but when I feel it, I look it. Perhaps this >> is different for everybody, but some basic animation in the face seems to >> come pretty naturally. And, for the record, I have never seen a face. >> >> >> >> Facing somebody when in conversation and shaking hands when introduced would >> seem to fall into the realm of common courtesy. They're social norms, to be >> sure, but I see absolutely no reason that blind individuals shouldn't be >> expected to adopt these norms like anybody else. I am not saying that >> anybody has argued that we shouldn't be expected to do so, but we should. If >> I meet somebody and they don't offer a hand, barring some obvious reason not >> to, it seems rude. This ties back into the above point that once we accept >> that some people will rock, etc., we might have to accept a lot of other >> actions, or lacks of action, based on the same rationale. >> >> >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Sean >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 05:03:49 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 00:03:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance andactingtolearnnaturalmovementandexpressions In-Reply-To: <99644498E1F547E9BC1788B266266F9D@OwnerPC> References: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05@OwnerPC><2B129BF69EBF4B4993B18C63D716622B@OwnerPC><4A02D34091A5415C990D9848F6884391@OwnerPC><2930D295BB1844088443C07657851F84@OwnerPC><212DEDFA3E9047618AC75BF5B9447F54@OwnerPC> <99644498E1F547E9BC1788B266266F9D@OwnerPC> Message-ID: My high school did more hip hop and modern, however we did do some latin ball room and swing, we even dabbled in belly dancing though with the little time we spent on it probably doesn't count. I did take more classes later though it is more dificault then it looks and it made every muscle in my body hert, but it makes you feel sexy. It was a great full body work out. When I entered college the classes and team were separate things, as the classes were elective and focused more on swing and treditional and lattin ball room. I did take a few classes in modern jaz and lirical. The team was all different catigories and we as a team did mostly hip hop and modern but we broke off in to small groups and partners and competed in other catigories. My main competitive dances were swing, salsa, tango, and waltz. Swing and tango were my favorite. You are write that the classes have to go at a sertain pase, but that doesn't mean you can't get hands on training to. If you are comfortable with it you could feel the instructor as she is teaching it to the class, but I never felt comfortable with this. Most of the time some one in the class would volunteer to help show me at the same time the instructor was explaining it in the front of the class. We usually stood in the back. Most people who helped me said they learned it better when they showed me it helped cement it in their brains better so they liked doing it. If I was still having trouble then the teacher came and showed me herself. Many of the steps were understandable by verbal instructions but many were not, even if the instructor is not as helpful most of the time students will be. Just be careful with the people who give you half assed help, but it is easy to tell if that is the case. Obviously you can not go over the whole class after class, but if there are a few things you are having more trouble with you can have the instructor go over them again with you. The main thing to remember when you talk with the instructor beforehand is to make shure she or he understands your solutions or your ability to come up with solutions to his/her perceived problems with you taking the class. Usually the main concern is will you be able to do it as a blind person. The answer is yes, but you have to fill in the how ahead of time to reasure the teacher. Maybe you could try a class at the Y first to get a base. I took a class at the Y in swing to convince my mom to do it. It was interesting for me because I had to be the guy for once. It was very relaxed and went at a slower pase, because it was just for fun. It was five weeks just one day a week, and did not get very indepth but it is defanatly a good base for you to learn the basic steps. Depending on the type of dance you do especially partner dances have a basic step. All the other moves are a variation of the basic step. This is mainly so you can easily go back in to it from the variation. In the Y class we covered the basic swing step. (There are different types of swing but that is another story ) Then we learned a spin, the charelston, the siment mixer, sugars, and a few other simple steps. They sort of moved at the pase of the classes understanding. It was so different then college classes. The plan was to learn two new moves a class session if every one got both of thoes we learned another, if the entire class did not get something we kept working on it before moving on. After learning the new step we reviewed the ones we learned before then put it together in a sort of free stile swing while the music played. It would be a good place to start, then you could go to a more indepth class knowing the basics so the rest of the moves would be based off that. Modern, lirical, ballet and hip hop would not really work well that way but they are still doable. If you learn salsa, it helps hip hop because a lot of the hip movements are the same or at least similar. What kind of dance are you interested in doing? Also I am happy to hear you enjoyed yoga. It is an amaizing thing to do. I always feel so much better after yoga. I have met blind people who won't try it even thoe they want to because they are afraid to look stupid when they do not understand something. Sighted people have the same concerns and I think it is equil between blind and sighted who find it easy and blind and sighted who find it difficult. I think anyone can do it because it is designed to be a personal best thing. You start where you are and improve as you go, always striving for better. It isn't a compatition with any one but yourself, and it is so relaxing. Andi -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 4:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance andactingtolearnnaturalmovementandexpressions Andi, I do speak with instructors ahead of time, whether it be a gym class at the health club or at school. Most instructors are not willing to be hands on; they have to lead the class and go at a certain pace. I agree that we need hands on instruction for anything movement based like dance, not just verbal cues. At least to learn the steps, being shown helps a lot. I did take kundalini yoga though and the instructor was hands on. But she also had time to do this since it was a slow paced class by its nature. Did you take dance in college? Were they elective classes? If your dance team is like mine was, they did more hip hop dances. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and actingtolearnnaturalmovementandexpressions I am sorry to hear about your experience with dance. I too have had a few classes I had to drop because of non accommodating instructors, but I was able to pick them back up with diferent instructors. I started dance in 10th grade so I am not as practised as people who started when they were five or so, but I held my own in competitions. I did not stick with it as long as I wanted once I got to college only about two years because I became to busy to keep up with it as well as I would have liked. As far as finding classes you do not need private lessons though they may be more in-depth than a beginners class.I was fortunate to have had a great instructor in high school so my first experience was posative I think that helps. I usually talked with instructors before enrolling in any class, and discussed how I learn in a more hands on way. I gave examples of how I could be taught either by me feeling the other persons movements or them moving me. Sometimes both methods are needed. I also explained that I needed to be shown the little details not just the foot work. I explained that I need to know the placement of each body part, so I wouldn't look like I was half assing it. I said I can understand a lot of what you are saying just by verbal instructions but that I will need hands on instructions for the things I do not understand verbally and it may be as frequent. Then I asked if that instructor would be willing to work with me. Some are not and that is not fun to hear but most people are willing to work with me because they are open to learning new ways of teaching. Blind people are not the only ones who need hands on training. Many sighted people need it to, though it is not as often as we do, but I saw it a lot. I also try to talk to other people who have worked with particular instructors to get a feel for them before my meeting. It is important to speek with them before like I said or you and the instructors will both be in for a surprise. I do this with workout classes at the gym to and most are willing to work with me. As for your balance dance actually helps improve balance at least it did with me. You learn to find your core and center your self. Yoga also helps with balance. However do not let someone tell you, you can not do it because you are blind. There are defenatly things we as blind people can not do, but that list is small and dancing is most defanatly not on the list. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting tolearnnaturalmovementandexpressions Hi, Due to the spelling, I suspected it was a nickname; and I've met more girls/ladies who liked dancing. But yeah guys do it too. Also in the past, its been only girls who spoke up on list regarding dance. You said you liked modern dancing; I have not met a guy who did modern dance, thought it was a girl thing. The others you did: latin ballroom, swing, and hip hop are definitely for both sexes; and yes you need a partner of the opposite sex for some of them. How many years were you on the college dance team? Was your major or minor in performing arts? You're right that colleges offer these types of beginning classes and so does the Y and county recreation centers. Were all your lessons in a class though? I've been discouraged from taking dance in a class. They do it by demonstration and go fast. In a class, the instructor teaches the guy part and the girl part separately and then once you practice it, you have a partner to do it together. I learn a little slower when it comes to gross motor moves and I am not the greatest of following directions of right and left. I've been told I can do it privately by my parents, but that is so expensive. I don't know how much Authur Murray dance studio charges, but its probably a lot. I probably could only afford 4 or five lessons. A blind friend took private tap, and he said it was $75 per lesson. I actually did try a ballroom dance at the university, and it was a disaster; the instructor was rude and did not want to accommodate. me. My vision impairment caused my feet to turn out and I walk with a gait; he said oh you have to put your feet straight to dance and that my balance was an issue. I know it is sometimes, but I said I would be dancing with a partner, and had danced before with people without falling or anything. Anyway, I'd love to try dance again. Glad you liked it and it worked out. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learnnaturalmovementandexpressions Yes I am a girl my name is Adrianne, and Andi is my nick name, it comes from my initials. However just because I did dance, that is not a reason to assume I am a girl. Their were many guys on both my dance teams and you can not do treditional or Lattin ball room or swing with out a partner. Most of the time it is a boy girl thing. Not always but tipically. When I took hip hop the guys outnumbered the girls. Actually men who dance usually get extra sex appeal points in most womens eyes. I recommend dance for everyone male or female. Like I said before it is great for gaining a more natural appearance and it is also a great way to stay in shape. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:39 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn naturalmovementandexpressions So you're a girl, Andi? -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movementandexpressions Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:44 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions I danced for many years including ballet, including pointe. It's very true that ballet dancers learn to position, and move, their bodies in inorganic ways. The motion, when done well, is very graceful and fluid, but the process to harness the technique can take years and actually can do quite a number on your body. Though other dance forms like jazz or tap are not quite as unforgiving as ballet, they still require a lot of discipline to do, especially to master. However, if wanting to learn how to move more naturally, dance certainly can help. Many professional athletes take dance, including ballet, in order to move better on the field or pitch or rink or whatever the case may be. I also have a background in theatre and minored in it when at university back in 2000. Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes. Another way to learn a more natural body movement is to take modeling classes. Now, these can cost, but so can dance and acting classes- it's something to invesigate before signing up. Modeling classes will teach you specifically how to walk and how to use your face to relay things. Models on the runway often use an unnatural gate, but in modeling class itself, you learn how to carry yourself meaning you learn how to move in a graceful, fluid manner. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:54:04 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <8B13EFD0D07949A289DAED7F5752C78F at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Actually you make a good point about acting and dance classes. Both are good ways to improve nonverbal skills. Dance classes will help loosen stiff postures and movements and acting classes will help with the facial expressions. When I started dance classes I felt even more stiff at first because I was thinking to hard about the movements and that is true for sighted people as well. However as the classes went on I found myself not only more fluid on stage and on the dance floor, but more natural looking in everyday movements. Acting is usually exadurated expressions because of the distence between the stage and the audionce, but if a person has atrophy they will have to try exadurated expressions at first anyway because the face muscles will not move as easily. The muscles will need more forse so what seems exadurated to an atrophyed face will not really be. Eventually as people practis the expressions will be more natural and easier. Not only facial expressions but hand placement body stance and a lot of other little details. I hyly recommend both dance and acting classes for anyone who wishes to look more natural. Most people but not all who are blind from birth have somewhat stiff and unnatural looking movements and do not realize it because it is what they have allways done and so it feels natural to them. I use to be like this and no one ever said anything to me about it because it was not tarrible, but after I took dance I realized how much more natural I walk and move now compared to then. My sister told me the same thing, but I could actually feel the difference. I do not recommend ballet for this, don't get me wrong it is a beautiful art form and if you are in to that it is wonderful, but it is stiff on perpous and they train for years to make their bodies do all sorts of unnatural things. It is not for someone who is just wanting to have more natural movements. I recommend latten ballroom or hip hop or even modern, Especially lattin ballroom. Acting classes I am not as experienced with but It would defanatly be helpful. If not a dance class a zoomba class would be good. Yoga and any marcial art is also really helpful in this. If you do not want to join a class contact a nonverbal comunication instructor and have that person give you facial exercizes, but they are not easy to find. It is truly possible to override atraphy no matter how long a person has ben out of practis but it is not instant and it takes a lot of work on that persons part. As for the smiling at private jokes, sighted people do it to but there is a eye movement asociated with it that tells others it is a private thought, and the smile is usually breef. However as long as you are not loling your head it is probebly not that big of a deal. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 05:19:27 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 00:19:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] taking acting classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63E718A147D04A478FFB68E55AFA0C96@OwnerPC> I never took acting classes but I have been in a lot of plays. You asked about safety in moving around on stage. It is very safe, because everything is blocked out. You will know where you are suppose to be where everything on set is and where the other people are. So not only is it safe, but it makes you as a blind person able to react to non visual things because it is scripted and you know where to look ahead of time. I only had one bad experience with the blocking not working. I was playing the bride of frankonstine, and the prop machine door was left open and it was suppose to be closed. I sort of veered off corse a little while exeting the stage, but it was not that bad and it all worked out in the end. When I was in Chicago their was complicated coriography and since it was all blocked I had no problems with it. It makes more since that I would have more trouble with Chicago than Bride of Franconstine but it wasn't the case. Kind of funny. Andi -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 4:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] taking acting classes Hi all, What Bridgit said about acting class brought back memories. She said ”Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes.” Bridgit, you have a minor in theatre; I haven’t met a blind person who did that before. Of course you were sighted, so can draw upon your experience learning facial expressions and visual expressions. Did you braille the script for memorizing it? I cannot memorize by listening except for song lyrics! I’m wondering how a blind actor would move around the stage safely. I mean you have obstacles up there and won’t have your cane since you’re another character. I just depended on my vision. Interesting that Bridgit says acting class pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. I don’t recall that happening. We did focus on voice though; like volume, tone and expression. I took acting in high school and the teacher was very easy. I did not learn much from it. We spent too much time watching movies rather than acting. But I won’t forget our final where we had to do a monologue. That was hard! I prefered working with a partner because their words clued me into what I had to say. In college, I also took acting. We did a number of things. They ranged from partner work acting scenes, improvization, something like sherades where you stand in front of everyone and pretend to do a day activity, and of course actual acting with small groups or a partner. We did warmups to loosen up; the instructor was very accomodating and showed me these stretches and exercises. I enjoyed it. Our acting exercises revolved around sensory awareness, and a lot of this was not visual. A few were visual exercises which we adapted; like mimicking what someone did with their hands. She stressed to be aware of all your senses and surroundings. For instance, we did an exercise that you responded to someone’s tone. Another was where you simply went and touched a classmate’s hand. She guided us in what to observe. Was it rough or soft? Rinkled or smooth? Boney? I guessed the guy I touched was athletic due to his large muscular hands, and If I remember correctly, I was right. She did say you had to show expression, but not just facial expressions, but expressions and movement with your whole body. We were definitely judged on our performance by peers and the instructor who herself was an actress. Still, it was fun. She never said anything about me needing to be visually expressive, so maybe I was expressive enough as my girl characters, or maybe it didn’t occur to her to say anything. Oh, we did not watch movies either. So, I got a lot out of the class. For the acting scenes, I asked the school to braille them. I got an A in the class. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 05:33:12 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:33:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: <5CCA63DF-DE5E-416E-8015-BE8CFB9FC7C9@samobile.net> References: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> <6A68006898124EF6A5201E663837BF69@OwnerPC> <5CCA63DF-DE5E-416E-8015-BE8CFB9FC7C9@samobile.net> Message-ID: Hi all, Yes, the NFB philosophy does stress conformity and fitting in, which is why I said in my reply to Marc's post that I think his view, which I somewhat share, is an unpopular view among the NFB community. For the most part, I play the game, try to fit in, and would encourage others to do the same. However, as Marc said, I think it is worthwhile to acknowledge the social burden that conforming to a sighted world puts on us as blind people, and to question the underlying reasons for the norms we conform to. We need to have compassion rather than judgment for those of us who struggle to match our behavior to the sighted, and we need to support our blind friends who experience shame or self-doubt when they find themselves struggling to conform, or not wishing to do so. It's true that some blind folks just don't know what the norms are in terms of dress or nonverbal behavior. However, many of us know what to do but struggle to do it correctly because things like mimicking gestures we have never seen or avoiding rocking or poking our eyes are things that take a ton of effort and self-discipline. And, others of us know what the norms are but frankly don't care to follow them. When I was a teen, there was a period when I decided that fashion, hairstyles, etc. were just "stupid sighted things" and I chose not to care about them. Why? Because my mother really cared about fashion and hair and put a lot of pressure on me to make sure my hair and clothes looked good. And I was a typical rebellious teen who was trying to disengage from everything my parents stood for. Some teens rebel by staying out past curfew, others experiment with drugs, and I stopped caring about my hair. I knew what the sighted world expected of me, but I actively chose not to conform. In an ideal world, blind people, like sighted people, would be free to make these kinds of decisions. Unfortunately, because we are the tiny minority we are, blind people who actively choose not to follow sighted norms are not viewed as "alternative"; we're viewed as the black sheep of the blind community and our actions pull everyone else down. (I'm putting myself in this category even though I outgrew my rebelliousness for the most part, because I can still relate to the nonconformist sentiment). The other thing, as I mentioned earlier, is that blindisms can be extremely difficult to stop. I can say this from experience having myself fought with several blindisms throughout life. Unfortunately, we can experience incredible shame and guilt when our efforts to not rock or move just like the sighted are unsuccessful. I think we need to have compassion for those of us experiencing this and support our blind friends rather than judging or putting them down. We may never be able to convince the sighted public to accept us when we violate their norms. But we can start by being accepting of our own kind. Best, Arielle On 11/20/11, SA Mobile wrote: > Learning socially appropriate behaviors is one thing, but I'm starting to > think we take it way too seriously to the point of hurting ourselves. At > some point, enough is enough. For me, that's what this entire conversation > was about starting with Arielle's very first post on blindness and other > minorities. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 20/11/2011, at 9:38 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > >> Arielle, >> I think the federation philosophy stresses blending in and conformity. >> After all we want to eliminate stereotypes and >> fit in. Remember Mr. Omvig's book the Secret to Empowerment? He covered as >> an ingredient of training to be well dressed and show an appropriate >> appearance; so grooming, clothes, manners, that sort of thing falls into >> this area. >> >> Those who do not communicate well and observe social norms are outcasted, >> whether sighted or blind. But if we do something odd, its not because >> we're just being ourselves, its attributed to blindness, whether the cause >> is blindness or something else like a personality querk. >> Children learn what is socially right and social norms from observation; >> so as Bridgit said, we should learn those things too growing up. >> As adults we can choose what to do. But if we do not have that >> information, we cannot choose. >> So I'd be curious to know if anyone has learned nonverbals and >> incorporated them into their daily communication habits. >> >> As to the question of accepting people who eat with their hands, I'd say >> no. In our culture, we eat with silverware except for finger foods such as >> fries, chips, and sandwiches. There is no reason a blind person cannot >> learn these table manners and how to eat. When and how to eat is a culture >> thing. So, we should know what the culture does. If I went to some >> Asian country, it would be accepted and yes expected to eat with the >> hands. So do what the culture does. But here in America, its silverware. >> And, people can and do notice long after you've gone about your manners. >> >> Here is an example. I interned at National library service, NLS, and one >> outspoken guy from another section often ate with me in the lunch room. He >> told me that a certain blind person was not the cleanest eater. He further >> said that he saw past blind employees eating with their hands and found >> that gross and he told them it wasn't right and may have suggested they >> learn to eat right. So people do notice your behavior, especially bad >> behavior. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups >> >> Sean, >> I believe eating with one's hands is more common than using silverware >> in some cultures. So, eating with silverware is another example of a >> norm that is culturally constructed but is largely arbitrary, and as >> far as I know, eating with one's hands never harms anyone. I fail to >> see why eating with the hands would be discouraged in an "ideal" >> society, unless you are arguing that an "ideal" society is one in >> which people always conform to common standards, and I think Marc is >> arguing the opposite point. I think expecting blind people to conform >> to sighted norms is similar to expecting someone from a culture where >> eating is done with the hands to use a fork and spoon. There is >> definitely merit to both sides of this larger issue, but the issue of >> whether or not to expect conformity in general strays from the >> blindness realm. >>> From a pragmatic perspective, I think it is beneficial to give blind >> children as many tools as possible to attain success and acceptance, >> including information about how the sighted majority behaves and what >> they expect. As blind children grow into adulthood, they can make >> their own choices about how much they want to conform and satisfy the >> expectations of others versus maintaining their individual identities. >> This is a balance that all people deal with, sighted and blind. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/20/11, Sean Whalen wrote: >>> I have been reading threw the portion of this thread related to >>> concealing >>> aspects of oneself and/or changing behavior to fit into the mold of what >>> is >>> considered "normal" by society. It is a very interesting question, and I >>> find the arguments advanced by Marc and Arielle quite persuasive. I >>> can't, >>> however, shake the feeling that blind kids should be discouraged from >>> rocking or engaging in other behavior that is considered outside the >>> mainstream. >>> >>> >>> >>> First, let me say, I couldn't agree more that the call for blind folks to >>> hide their eyes if they look abnormal is misguided, and, frankly, fairly >>> offensive. I am 100% on board with the notion that we need not, and in >>> fact >>> should not, hide part of what and who we are simply for the comfort or >>> convenience of others. If somebody wants to wear sunglasses that is >>> entirely >>> their decision, and there is absolutely no problem with it, but nobody >>> ought >>> to be suggesting that anybody do so for anybody else's benefit. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regarding the question of so called "blindisms," I tend to agree with >>> Greg >>> that we have precious little choice but to be pragmatic about the issue >>> and >>> dissuade blind folks from rocking, poking, etc., if we want them to be >>> set >>> up to compete and succeed socially and professionally. I might cede the >>> point that, in an ideal world, folks wouldn't be judged on such >>> ultimately >>> inconsequential attributes. However, if I were to grant this point, I >>> would >>> do so with some reluctance. How far does this go by logical extension? >>> What >>> if I like to eat my pasta and salad with my hands rather than a fork and >>> knife? Should people just accept that and move on, or is there some real >>> value in conforming to social norms there? The same question could just >>> as >>> easily be asked regarding a sighted child who prefers to eat with his >>> hands. >>> Is that Ok? Would an ideal society accept that as something that harms >>> nobody; merely a personal preference to be respected? I don't see how the >>> answer to the former can be "yes," and the latter "no." Maybe that's Ok, >>> but >>> it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what >>> we >>> deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our >>> society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval >>> of >>> it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling >>> blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we >>> ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. >>> >>> >>> >>> Finally, related to nonverbal communication, you won't catch me dropping >>> fat >>> cash on modeling classes in the hopes of appropriately arching my >>> eyebrows >>> at just the right moment, but I think the basics are important. As has >>> been >>> said, many facial expressions are built in. I have never been taught how >>> to >>> look happy, sad, or irritated, but when I feel it, I look it. Perhaps >>> this >>> is different for everybody, but some basic animation in the face seems to >>> come pretty naturally. And, for the record, I have never seen a face. >>> >>> >>> >>> Facing somebody when in conversation and shaking hands when introduced >>> would >>> seem to fall into the realm of common courtesy. They're social norms, to >>> be >>> sure, but I see absolutely no reason that blind individuals shouldn't be >>> expected to adopt these norms like anybody else. I am not saying that >>> anybody has argued that we shouldn't be expected to do so, but we should. >>> If >>> I meet somebody and they don't offer a hand, barring some obvious reason >>> not >>> to, it seems rude. This ties back into the above point that once we >>> accept >>> that some people will rock, etc., we might have to accept a lot of other >>> actions, or lacks of action, based on the same rationale. >>> >>> >>> >>> Take care, >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From carlymih at earthlink.net Mon Nov 21 06:14:49 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:14:49 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cca7d7$04bb4210$0e31c630$@com> <6A68006898124EF6A5201E663837BF69@OwnerPC> <5CCA63DF-DE5E-416E-8015-BE8CFB9FC7C9@samobile.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111120220800.01e0c788@earthlink.net> 'Evening, Arielle, My mother too was really into fashion and that I ought to be at least interested in how I look. Today, I love clothes. We used to visit second hand clothing stores and in an unabashed manner grope the racks. I learned about body types and what tends to bring out different parts of someone's body. I did tap, jazz, ballet and gymnastics, as ell with my Mom approaching the instructor with nothing more than "by the way she's blind" She didn't receive problems from the instructors for that, unceremonious, introduction. At 09:33 PM 11/20/2011, Arielle Silverman wrote: >Hi all, >Yes, the NFB philosophy does stress conformity and fitting in, which >is why I said in my reply to Marc's post that I think his view, which >I somewhat share, is an unpopular view among the NFB community. For >the most part, I play the game, try to fit in, and would encourage >others to do the same. However, as Marc said, I think it is worthwhile >to acknowledge the social burden that conforming to a sighted world >puts on us as blind people, and to question the underlying reasons for >the norms we conform to. We need to have compassion rather than >judgment for those of us who struggle to match our behavior to the >sighted, and we need to support our blind friends who experience shame >or self-doubt when they find themselves struggling to conform, or not >wishing to do so. >It's true that some blind folks just don't know what the norms are in >terms of dress or nonverbal behavior. However, many of us know what to >do but struggle to do it correctly because things like mimicking >gestures we have never seen or avoiding rocking or poking our eyes are >things that take a ton of effort and self-discipline. And, others of >us know what the norms are but frankly don't care to follow them. When >I was a teen, there was a period when I decided that fashion, >hairstyles, etc. were just "stupid sighted things" and I chose not to >care about them. Why? Because my mother really cared about fashion and >hair and put a lot of pressure on me to make sure my hair and clothes >looked good. And I was a typical rebellious teen who was trying to >disengage from everything my parents stood for. Some teens rebel by >staying out past curfew, others experiment with drugs, and I stopped >caring about my hair. I knew what the sighted world expected of me, >but I actively chose not to conform. In an ideal world, blind people, >like sighted people, would be free to make these kinds of decisions. >Unfortunately, because we are the tiny minority we are, blind people >who actively choose not to follow sighted norms are not viewed as >"alternative"; we're viewed as the black sheep of the blind community >and our actions pull everyone else down. (I'm putting myself in this >category even though I outgrew my rebelliousness for the most part, >because I can still relate to the nonconformist sentiment). >The other thing, as I mentioned earlier, is that blindisms can be >extremely difficult to stop. I can say this from experience having >myself fought with several blindisms throughout life. Unfortunately, >we can experience incredible shame and guilt when our efforts to not >rock or move just like the sighted are unsuccessful. I think we need >to have compassion for those of us experiencing this and support our >blind friends rather than judging or putting them down. We may never >be able to convince the sighted public to accept us when we violate >their norms. But we can start by being accepting of our own kind. >Best, >Arielle > >On 11/20/11, SA Mobile wrote: > > Learning socially appropriate behaviors is one thing, but I'm starting to > > think we take it way too seriously to the point of hurting ourselves. At > > some point, enough is enough. For me, that's what this entire conversation > > was about starting with Arielle's very first post on blindness and other > > minorities. > > > > Respectfully, > > Jedi > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On 20/11/2011, at 9:38 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > > wrote: > > > >> Arielle, > >> I think the federation philosophy stresses blending in and conformity. > >> After all we want to eliminate stereotypes and > >> fit in. Remember Mr. Omvig's book the Secret to Empowerment? He covered as > >> an ingredient of training to be well dressed and show an appropriate > >> appearance; so grooming, clothes, manners, that sort of thing falls into > >> this area. > >> > >> Those who do not communicate well and observe social norms are outcasted, > >> whether sighted or blind. But if we do something odd, its not because > >> we're just being ourselves, its attributed to blindness, whether the cause > >> is blindness or something else like a personality querk. > >> Children learn what is socially right and social norms from observation; > >> so as Bridgit said, we should learn those things too growing up. > >> As adults we can choose what to do. But if we do not have that > >> information, we cannot choose. > >> So I'd be curious to know if anyone has learned nonverbals and > >> incorporated them into their daily communication habits. > >> > >> As to the question of accepting people who eat with their hands, I'd say > >> no. In our culture, we eat with silverware except for finger foods such as > >> fries, chips, and sandwiches. There is no reason a blind person cannot > >> learn these table manners and how to eat. When and how to eat is a culture > >> thing. So, we should know what the culture does. If I went to some > >> Asian country, it would be accepted and yes expected to eat with the > >> hands. So do what the culture does. But here in America, its silverware. > >> And, people can and do notice long after you've gone about your manners. > >> > >> Here is an example. I interned at National library service, NLS, and one > >> outspoken guy from another section often ate with me in the lunch room. He > >> told me that a certain blind person was not the cleanest eater. He further > >> said that he saw past blind employees eating with their hands and found > >> that gross and he told them it wasn't right and may have suggested they > >> learn to eat right. So people do notice your behavior, especially bad > >> behavior. > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman > >> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:24 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > >> > >> Sean, > >> I believe eating with one's hands is more common than using silverware > >> in some cultures. So, eating with silverware is another example of a > >> norm that is culturally constructed but is largely arbitrary, and as > >> far as I know, eating with one's hands never harms anyone. I fail to > >> see why eating with the hands would be discouraged in an "ideal" > >> society, unless you are arguing that an "ideal" society is one in > >> which people always conform to common standards, and I think Marc is > >> arguing the opposite point. I think expecting blind people to conform > >> to sighted norms is similar to expecting someone from a culture where > >> eating is done with the hands to use a fork and spoon. There is > >> definitely merit to both sides of this larger issue, but the issue of > >> whether or not to expect conformity in general strays from the > >> blindness realm. > >>> From a pragmatic perspective, I think it is beneficial to give blind > >> children as many tools as possible to attain success and acceptance, > >> including information about how the sighted majority behaves and what > >> they expect. As blind children grow into adulthood, they can make > >> their own choices about how much they want to conform and satisfy the > >> expectations of others versus maintaining their individual identities. > >> This is a balance that all people deal with, sighted and blind. > >> Best, > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 11/20/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > >>> I have been reading threw the portion of this thread related to > >>> concealing > >>> aspects of oneself and/or changing behavior to fit into the mold of what > >>> is > >>> considered "normal" by society. It is a very interesting question, and I > >>> find the arguments advanced by Marc and Arielle quite persuasive. I > >>> can't, > >>> however, shake the feeling that blind kids should be discouraged from > >>> rocking or engaging in other behavior that is considered outside the > >>> mainstream. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> First, let me say, I couldn't agree more that the call for blind folks to > >>> hide their eyes if they look abnormal is misguided, and, frankly, fairly > >>> offensive. I am 100% on board with the notion that we need not, and in > >>> fact > >>> should not, hide part of what and who we are simply for the comfort or > >>> convenience of others. If somebody wants to wear sunglasses that is > >>> entirely > >>> their decision, and there is absolutely no problem with it, but nobody > >>> ought > >>> to be suggesting that anybody do so for anybody else's benefit. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Regarding the question of so called "blindisms," I tend to agree with > >>> Greg > >>> that we have precious little choice but to be pragmatic about the issue > >>> and > >>> dissuade blind folks from rocking, poking, etc., if we want them to be > >>> set > >>> up to compete and succeed socially and professionally. I might cede the > >>> point that, in an ideal world, folks wouldn't be judged on such > >>> ultimately > >>> inconsequential attributes. However, if I were to grant this point, I > >>> would > >>> do so with some reluctance. How far does this go by logical extension? > >>> What > >>> if I like to eat my pasta and salad with my hands rather than a fork and > >>> knife? Should people just accept that and move on, or is there some real > >>> value in conforming to social norms there? The same question could just > >>> as > >>> easily be asked regarding a sighted child who prefers to eat with his > >>> hands. > >>> Is that Ok? Would an ideal society accept that as something that harms > >>> nobody; merely a personal preference to be respected? I don't see how the > >>> answer to the former can be "yes," and the latter "no." Maybe that's Ok, > >>> but > >>> it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what > >>> we > >>> deem acceptable and unacceptable - a large part of the foundation of our > >>> society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval > >>> of > >>> it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling > >>> blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we > >>> ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Finally, related to nonverbal communication, you won't catch me dropping > >>> fat > >>> cash on modeling classes in the hopes of appropriately arching my > >>> eyebrows > >>> at just the right moment, but I think the basics are important. As has > >>> been > >>> said, many facial expressions are built in. I have never been taught how > >>> to > >>> look happy, sad, or irritated, but when I feel it, I look it. Perhaps > >>> this > >>> is different for everybody, but some basic animation in the face seems to > >>> come pretty naturally. And, for the record, I have never seen a face. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Facing somebody when in conversation and shaking hands when introduced > >>> would > >>> seem to fall into the realm of common courtesy. They're social norms, to > >>> be > >>> sure, but I see absolutely no reason that blind individuals shouldn't be > >>> expected to adopt these norms like anybody else. I am not saying that > >>> anybody has argued that we shouldn't be expected to do so, but we should. > >>> If > >>> I meet somebody and they don't offer a hand, barring some obvious reason > >>> not > >>> to, it seems rude. This ties back into the above point that once we > >>> accept > >>> that some people will rock, etc., we might have to accept a lot of other > >>> actions, or lacks of action, based on the same rationale. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Take care, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sean > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From agrima at nbp.org Mon Nov 21 16:01:37 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:01:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New: Two popular board books from famous authors! Message-ID: <00b201cca866$d9f144e0$8dd3cea0$@org> Two popular board books from famous authors - just in time for gift-giving! Hop on Pop By Dr Seuss Print/braille board book, $4.99 Ages Baby-Preschool In contracted braille. "THREE TREE Three fish in a tree Fish in a tree? How can that be?" 'Hop on Pop' remains a perennial favorite when it comes to teaching kids to read. Here, as always, Dr. Seuss does much more than teach children the basics of word construction - he introduces them to the incomparable pleasure of reading a book. Order this book: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/BB-POP.html ****** Night-Night, Little Pookie! By Sandra Boynton Print/braille board book, $5.99 Ages Baby-Preschool In contracted braille. Sandra Boynton is America's premier author for very young children. Here, Pookie gets ready for bed with a lot of help from Mom: "Good night, Pookie ears. Good night, Pookie nose. Good night, Pookie eyes that are ready to close." Nighttime routines offer comfort and security as the little one says goodnight and settles into bed. Order this book: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/BB-NIGHT.html ******* Which FREE book will you choose in our Annual Holiday Book Sale? http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/holidaysale.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 16:58:23 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 10:58:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movement and expression In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andi, I danced for almost 20 years. When I was four, when I started, I was a little elf in a local performance of The Nutcracker, and ever since, I've had a life-long love affair with the stage! Smile. My mom was also a dancer and owned her own studio. She recently opened another dance studio after years of not dancing. My feet never bled from ballet pointe, though I would experience aches and pains after dancing for hours. Since I'm diabetic, I took extra care of my feet. I also was on my high school dance team, but senior year decided to do cheerleading and I ended up a captain for the cheerleading squad. I no longer take formal dance classes since I've not found being blind condusive to certain dances especially ballet, at least in terms of how I use to dance. When turning and such, it becomes disorientating and my balance isn't always great, which does not lead to expert conditions for ballet. I do still dance for fun, and while swing, hip-hop, latin dancing still have a very technical aspect, they are fun and can be easier to pick up. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 10 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:20:54 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions Message-ID: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 17:06:37 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:06:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versuses other minority groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jedi, You bring up an interesting point: If blind children are allowed to explore and experience just like other children, won't they exhibit more "normal" physical behavior? Though a lot of things are picked up through learned behavior, a lot of physical movement and expressions are natural and instinctive as a human. I would assume a blind child allowed to be a kid would naturally pick up certain behaviors and expressions. Children who are sheltered and not allowed to explore space and experience the world, I would think would have these natural instincts stifled and suppressed, blind or sighted. Just a thought. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 14 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:03:29 -0600 From: SA Mobile To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <59D3B0F7-4477-4E92-B5B5-5D952EDADD67 at samobile.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A lot of mannerisms go away naturally when blind kids are allowed to move naturally like anyone else. Respectfully Submitted From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 17:54:39 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:54:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Legal system not supporting blind people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chris, Again, based on technical definitions, you're absolutely correct, however, as I stated, our official government system is listed as a democracy. We don't follow the technical attributes of a democracy- it's not a one man, one vote system, but nonetheless, we're considered a democracy. And as Jedi said, we're a representative democracy. You say that you always have to correct people when they claim America is a democracy, but why, since we are taught this in school, and America's official government system is listed as such? Now, we have adopted anti-discrimination laws, but my point is that we live in a country that has always, from it's inception, claimed to be a country based on equality, but this equality hasn't always extended to every citizen, or even person, living here. Yes, we have drafted and adopted anti-discrimination laws, but it took years to do so. It took a hundred years, from the Civil War, to allow racial/ethnic minorities true equality in this country. Again, women weren't allowed to vote until the 1920's, and we're still paid less, on average, than men no matter the position. How long did it take to give people with disabilities rights? We're still fighting for many of these rights. And hello, gay rights? Regardless of where you stand on this issue, it's very clear that gays are still very much discriminated against. despite of certain current wins for rights and equality for the blind, first, we shouldn't have to fight for them to begin with, and second, what about equality to accessing information, use of technology, provisions to take LSAT exams, and other exams, in a method equal to our sighted peers? If our legal system supported us, we wouldn't have to file law suits like this. And hello, what about the young couple in Missouri? Just two years ago a couple in MO had their baby taken by CPS and the only reason was their blindness. A foster-parent raised the baby for two months, leaving the parents with no memories of the first-two months of their child's life. If you don't have children you might not understand this, but it's a huge deal. Where the laws protecting them? No anti-discrimination law helped them. CPS, to my understanding, still has not apologized or even admited to any wrong doing. This is a perfect example of how a popular mindset is supported by our legal system, whether willing or unwilling. Had a law said that blindness alone isn't a reason for CPS to investigate a couple, this baby and her parents would have been together from the beginning just like most sighted parents and children. How is this not a legal issue? And what about Braille legislation? We hear over and over how only ten percent of blind students are taught to read and write Braille, so where are the laws allowing us to choose the right medium for us? An instructor of teachers going into the field to work specifically with blind students said, and I almost quote, that students and parents aren't allowed to choose what medium they learn for reading writing; instead, data developed by educators helps "professionals" figure out what is "best" for a student. As we know, this "data," or criteria, is flawed and gives blind students no right to select what is best for them. Again, where are the laws backing us instead of backing a flawed education system that has failed blind students for years? While we've adopted anti-discrimination laws through the years, we still support certain discriminatory behavior and ideas with our legal system because of the lack of laws supporting us. And I point out once again that no one- blind, black, gay, etc.- should have to campaign for fair and equal treatment. We should have the same rights and be treated on equal terms no matter personal feelings. If our legal system supported all minorities in this way, society wouldn't have a legal basis in which to discriminate against anyone. People are as racist as ever, but laws now say you can't deny service based on skin color or ethnicity. People still hold ideas that certain minorities are not as equal, but laws keep these people from segregating and discriminating, at least doing so with legal support. So where are the laws supporting the blind? Why can't I have a child without having CPS show up at my door to double check my child is safe? Most sighted people take a child home and no one contacts CPS, but just because I'm blind, this is a potential issue? And why can't I learn Braille to help me read and write? Technology is great, or my eyes may be able to see some large print, but Braille would make me so much more efficient. And yet no laws make it illegal for the education system to deny me this knowledge. Many of our problems, though stemming from societal attitudes, exist because we have no legal basis in which to demand rights, and be treated equally, with issues taken for granted by many. This, my friend, is completely a legal thing, and our government fails us each time we are denied a right, discriminated against and have to lobby for legislation putting us on an equal footing. We could have laws supporting us so, though people will always discriminate, there would be no legal basis for people to get away with this behavior. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 11 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:57:34 -0500 From: Chris Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities Message-ID: <4ec6d4f7.2673340a.5d11.7b12 at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Bridgit, I'm sorry I took that too literally, as it wasn't meant to be taken that way. A lot of people get those two forms of government mixed up, and I have to explain to them that we're not a true democracy. If we were, all decisions would be made by the people. Well who knows, maybe that would be better. LOL Anyway, I don't think the discrimination that we are currently faced with in this country is not because of the laws and system of government because we now have a lot of anti-discrimination laws in place; the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, The Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act (IDEA,) and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA.) So, what laws that haven't been repealed are supporting discrimination against us? We almost had one in the subminimum wage bill, but thank God that was voted down. Now we just need cosponsors for the replacement bill, the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. Has anyone on this list contacted their Congresspeople? If so, what were your experiences? Chris From nbrav003 at fiu.edu Mon Nov 21 17:58:31 2011 From: nbrav003 at fiu.edu (Nallym Bravo) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:58:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The 10 college majors with the lowest unemployment rates Message-ID: Hello, Below is an interesting article I was sent by someone in my university's Career Services office. It's a good read for anyone, but especially if you're trying to decide what field you would like to pursue. The 10 college majors with the lowest unemployment rates .By Liz Goodwin National Affairs Reporter .PostsEmailRSS .By Job fair in Minneapolis (AP) College students, take note: There are at least six fields of study whose graduates are virtually 100 percent employed right now. That's right--certain majors, such as pharmacology, produce graduates who face a zero percent unemployment rate. That's not bad considering last month's joblessness rate for people with a college degree or higher was 4.4 percent. The Wall Street Journal created an interactive tool where users can search for the average employment rate and median income of people who studied each major. The data comes from the Georgetown Center on Education and the Workforce, which released a similar ranking of majors in May that we wrote about here. The Center's previous study found that graduates with engineering and science majors tend to earn significantly more many than graduates with other college majors. (A petroleum engineering major will make 300 percent more over his or her lifetime than a peer who majored in counseling psychology, for example.) But narrowing the results down to only the employment rate yields a wider range of fields that provide excellent job security. People who majored in some lower paying fields, such as school counseling, face an almost nonexistent chance of being unempl0yed. Check out the rest of the most employable majors, below. Majors and their unemployment rate: 1. Actuarial Science—0 percent 2. Astronomy and Astrophysics—0 percent 3. Educational Administration and Supervision—0 percent 4. Geological and Geophysical Engineering—0 percent 5. Pharmacology—0 percent 6. School Student Counseling—0 percent 7. Agricultural Economics—1.3 percent 8. Medical Technologies Technicians—1.4 percent 9.Atmospheric Sciences and Meteorology—1.6 percent 10. Environmental Engineering, Nursing, and Nuclear Industrial Radiology and Biological Technologies—2.2 percent Best, Nallym Bravo From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:07:52 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:07:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Modeling for learning natural expressions and movement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, Yes, I took modeling classes when I was younger. I modeled briefly, but didn't enjoy the process. You'd have to look into modeling agencies and classes, and I'm sure only bigger cities would offer anything like this, though you never know. Though models are stereotyped as stupid and artificial, a model has to learn to express something through their body and facial expressions. A model doesn't simply take a picture; they have to "sell" something in a nonverbal way. When I took modeling classes at the Nancy Bounds agency here locally, we not only learned how to walk a runway, we learned how to carry ourselves in all situations, with grace and deportment. We also learned how to apply make-up, what clothes fit us best, interviewing skills, how to speak and even dining etiquette. I've also taken etiquette classes, which is another possible idea since some etiquette classes teach you how to move as well. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 3 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:11:05 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Bridgette, Modeling classes sounds good. Do you speak from experience? Anyone here taken a class? Oh, I did not know they went into how to carry yourself and walk gracefully and using your face to relay things. Those are not offered at community centers or colleges. So where do you take them? Just curious. I wonder if anyone has taken it to just improve their image as we are suggesting, or if all participants do it to pursue modeling. Many people take acting and dance classes, yet its for recreation, not to become a professional actor or dancer. I don't know about modeling classes. Very interesting idea. I've been told I am real expressive when talking both in voice and in my expression. I do not walk correctly; I have a gait. But I have heard I walk pretty well in terms of posture. I could always improve though. I'd also like to learn hand gestures someday; now I only know how to wave goodbye. Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:18:31 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:18:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carly, But will that kid get a job? Date? Be accepted by other peers? I'm not trying to generalize and say it can never happen because I know people with blindisms, and they are active and social, but I know many more who aren't. Whether it's right or wrong, this is how the world works, and suggesting we create a utopia doesn't help things because outside of philosophical discussions, the world isn't going to change much. This isn't a defeatist attitude, but a realistic one. Just look at what is happening in the world, then tell me a kid can be treated as equal who rocks, pokes their eyes and any other blindism. We can't change being blind; we can't change what our eyes look like, or how they function, but blindisms aren't socially acceptable, and learning to not do these behaviors isn't stifling one's inner nature, but it's teaching them behaviors that will help them integrate into society. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 9 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:03:30 -0800 From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111119125543.01e0a1a0 at earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Good afternoon, Ashley I think, What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes upon which are plastered identifiers like "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People ought to feel they can just do what feels right, and comfortable and not be pressured to shead some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he doesn't happen to have so-called cog native impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a >culture learn body language and facial >expressions from observing others; our culture >emphasises personal space, shaking hands to >greet, and eye contact just as some examples. >Blind and low vision people won???t see it, but >if someone works with us, its still a learned >behavior; we just learn in a different way. I >think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking >hands are natural since I learned early on as >did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became >more automatic. I also like your comment that we >should try to extinguish behaviors associated >with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is >one of them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural >to learn something now; I could do it, but it >would probably be stiffer and not as natural >like if I learned gestures. What I do though in >a presentation is look around the room from left >to right; speakers to do this to get attention >and establish themselves before talking to a >group; I do it even though I cannot see a lot, >especially toward the back of the room. I can >also say yes or no with my head because I was >taught early on. But other nonverbals such as >winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with >the hand were not taught and I think I'd be a >little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still >it would be good to try and learn. Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:23:16 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:23:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Patrick, True, some expressions like smiling tend to be a natural expression for anyone, and yet I've met many blind people who tend to have stoic expressions, and they don't smile naturally. They have no condition such as facial paralysis explaining the lack of expressions. They don't smile even when laughing. So obviously smiling isn't always a naturally occurring expression. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 12 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:59:53 -0500 From: Patrick Molloy To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Bridgit, I liked what you said, but I think you should know that there are some facial expressions that blind people don't have to learn. For instance, a smile is genetically encoded in everybody. We don't need sighted people to tell us how to do that. I think it's best to start with what blind people already know, then find a trusted sighted friend or family member and talk to them about nonverbal communication. As I say, we really don't have far to go, because there are genetic codes for a lot of these facial expressions. It's just a matter of learning to use them and practicing them. Patrick From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:32:07 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:32:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking good in pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Being photogenic in pictures is a problem for blind and sighted people alike. Even the most gorgeous people can look terrible in photos. I don't really know why this is. You can smile and pose just fine and still not look great in photos, while others can look great no matter what. Pose and facial expression often have a lot to do with it, but not always. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 27 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:44:02 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: <9EB11EA5234244CA94ADB542924019E8 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ks_c_5601-1987"; reply-type=original That is a problem with blind and sighted alike. I can't smile a good smile just because someone tells me to for a picture. It usually looks like what it is, forced. However sighted people have the same problems many of my friends expressed this problem. I think thinking a private thought about something funny to you is great if it gets you to smile a real smile. It doesn't really matter if others think it's funny if you do and it gets you to smile when the camera flashes Andi. From brlsurfer at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:54:40 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 10:54:40 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] staring Message-ID: <4eca9e93.09b9340a.183b.31a8@mx.google.com> I hate staring. People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know that they are doing it. I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder do these people even realize they are staring? Vejas From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:56:03 2011 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 13:56:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The 10 college majors with the lowest unemployment rates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I find this to be rather interesting. I know of someone who I believe has an advanced degree in pharmacology. not only does this person have a job, but I believe she makes a rather considerable amount of money as well. Therefore, I do not believe I would base my major solely based on an article such as this one. And who knows when a degree in agricultural Economics might actually give you an advantage in the job market. Combine it with a degree in agricultural policy, and you would most likely be set for dealing with the problems of the developing urban agricultural movement. Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Nallym Bravo" Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 12:58 PM To: "fabs" ; Subject: [nabs-l] The 10 college majors with the lowest unemployment rates > Hello, > > Below is an interesting article I was sent by someone in my > university's Career Services office. It's a good read for anyone, but > especially if you're trying to decide what field you would like to > pursue. > > The 10 college majors with the lowest unemployment rates > > .By Liz Goodwin > National Affairs Reporter > .PostsEmailRSS .By > > Job fair in Minneapolis (AP) > College students, take note: There are at least six fields of study > whose graduates are virtually 100 percent employed right now. That's > right--certain majors, such as pharmacology, produce graduates who > face a zero percent unemployment rate. > > That's not bad considering last month's joblessness rate for people > with a college degree or higher was 4.4 percent. > > The Wall Street Journal created an interactive tool where users can > search for the average employment rate and median income of people who > studied each major. The data comes from the Georgetown Center on > Education and the Workforce, which released a similar ranking of > majors in May that we wrote about here. > > The Center's previous study found that graduates with engineering and > science majors tend to earn significantly more many than graduates > with other college majors. (A petroleum engineering major will make > 300 percent more over his or her lifetime than a peer who majored in > counseling psychology, for example.) > > But narrowing the results down to only the employment rate yields a > wider range of fields that provide excellent job security. People who > majored in some lower paying fields, such as school counseling, face > an almost nonexistent chance of being unempl0yed. > > Check out the rest of the most employable majors, below. > > Majors and their unemployment rate: > > 1. Actuarial Science—0 percent > > 2. Astronomy and Astrophysics—0 percent > > 3. Educational Administration and Supervision—0 percent > > 4. Geological and Geophysical Engineering—0 percent > > 5. Pharmacology—0 percent > > 6. School Student Counseling—0 percent > > 7. Agricultural Economics—1.3 percent > > 8. Medical Technologies Technicians—1.4 percent > > 9.Atmospheric Sciences and Meteorology—1.6 percent > > 10. Environmental Engineering, Nursing, and Nuclear Industrial > Radiology and Biological Technologies—2.2 percent > > Best, > Nallym Bravo > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From brlsurfer at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:59:32 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 10:59:32 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] The 10 college majors with the lowest unemploymentrates Message-ID: <4eca9fb7.271e340a.4ae5.3b8b@mx.google.com> Hi, I had a question about inganding in line properly. I am a freshman and when I buy my own lunch, I have to figure out when to move up front in the line. Do any of you have any suggesttions for standing in line and knowing when to move, as well as knowing when it's my turn? Thanks. Vejas From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Mon Nov 21 19:03:09 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 13:03:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] staring In-Reply-To: <4eca9e93.09b9340a.183b.31a8@mx.google.com> References: <4eca9e93.09b9340a.183b.31a8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: This is another reason why ignorance needs to be dealt with, in sighted communities. I was at a Taco Bell, 30 minutes away from my hometown. There were two boys laughing at me, because of my blindness. My brother got on to them, and they left me alone. It's a shame, that people that don't know any better make fun of us, when there's really nothing wrong with us. Blessings, Joshua On 11/21/11, vejas wrote: > I hate staring. > People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know > that they are doing it. > I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are > staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me > that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. > What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing > anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder > do these people even realize they are staring? > Vejas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brlsurfer at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 19:05:05 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:05:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] staring Message-ID: <4ecaa105.a71c340a.45da.330f@mx.google.com> Oops-sorry, I accidentally put my question in the wrong subject. Vejas From brlsurfer at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 19:05:38 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:05:38 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] staring Message-ID: <4ecaa126.4263340a.0849.0fa9@mx.google.com> Good for your brother! Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: I hate staring. People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know that they are doing it. I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder do these people even realize they are staring? Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g mail.com From hope.paulos at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 19:33:01 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:33:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] staring References: <4eca9e93.09b9340a.183b.31a8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0A86157877504765959052337EAD496D@Espy> It's sad that ignorance is out there. Luckily I've never been told people stare at me. I have been totally blind since birth. When I was younger, I was always doing repetitive behavior (rocking, eye-poking, etc). I'm sure at that time I was stared at. By the age of 6 my parents stopped me from doing this. People now say that they have no idea I'm blind because I turn to people when I'm talked to and don't do the repetitive behavior. I also wear sunglasses because my eyes don't focus at all. That also helps keep people from staring. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Lester" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring > This is another reason why ignorance needs to be dealt with, in > sighted communities. > I was at a Taco Bell, 30 minutes away from my hometown. > There were two boys laughing at me, because of my blindness. > My brother got on to them, and they left me alone. > It's a shame, that people that don't know any better make fun of us, > when there's really nothing wrong with us. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/21/11, vejas wrote: >> I hate staring. >> People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know >> that they are doing it. >> I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are >> staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me >> that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. >> What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing >> anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder >> do these people even realize they are staring? >> Vejas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 19:50:54 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:50:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Speak to me Message-ID: I was in Pizza hut, and the lady came to take my order. She turns to my sister and asks, "And what does he like to eat this evening?" I said, "I'd like a personal pan pizza please." My nine year old niece said, "Uncle RJ is blind not a baby!" RJ From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 21 19:56:35 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:56:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking good in pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: true. I usually look okay in pictures, except for the smile, because it is forced. I try and think of something funny to make my face happy and smile. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 1:32 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Looking good in pictures Being photogenic in pictures is a problem for blind and sighted people alike. Even the most gorgeous people can look terrible in photos. I don't really know why this is. You can smile and pose just fine and still not look great in photos, while others can look great no matter what. Pose and facial expression often have a lot to do with it, but not always. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 27 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:44:02 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: <9EB11EA5234244CA94ADB542924019E8 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ks_c_5601-1987"; reply-type=original That is a problem with blind and sighted alike. I can't smile a good smile just because someone tells me to for a picture. It usually looks like what it is, forced. However sighted people have the same problems many of my friends expressed this problem. I think thinking a private thought about something funny to you is great if it gets you to smile a real smile. It doesn't really matter if others think it's funny if you do and it gets you to smile when the camera flashes Andi. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us Mon Nov 21 20:06:13 2011 From: icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us (Icewolf) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:06:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] staring In-Reply-To: References: <4eca9e93.09b9340a.183b.31a8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4ECAAF35.8090400@gtwebdesign.us> Hello, I get stared at all the time when Igo to places like Wal-Mart. One time while Iwas walking up the street to the gas station, it is exactly one mile from my front door, I actually had a person tell me I should walk in the middle of the street. It is things like this that make me afraid to even walk alone anymore. Greg W. Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of all days. On 11/21/2011 2:03 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > This is another reason why ignorance needs to be dealt with, in > sighted communities. > I was at a Taco Bell, 30 minutes away from my hometown. > There were two boys laughing at me, because of my blindness. > My brother got on to them, and they left me alone. > It's a shame, that people that don't know any better make fun of us, > when there's really nothing wrong with us. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/21/11, vejas wrote: >> I hate staring. >> People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know >> that they are doing it. >> I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are >> staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me >> that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. >> What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing >> anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder >> do these people even realize they are staring? >> Vejas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 21 20:06:53 2011 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:06:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New rules mean it will be easier and cheaper to travel to the United Kingdom with Guide Dogs Message-ID: <003701cca889$1e05bc20$5a113460$@satx.rr.com> Hello everyone, Some recent discussions on one of our list got my curiosity up concerning travel to certain countries like the United Kingdom with a guide dog. There have been special procedures in place for a number of years that permit guide dogs from certain countries to enter or return to the UK without having to undergo quarantine and to accompany their owners in the airplane cabin on the inbound flight. I was not prepared to read what appears below. Beginning on January 2012 the door of opportunity for travel to the UK with guide dogs as well as pets even from previously unlisted countries where quarantine was required upon arrival in the UK will change making the movement of pets and guide dogs in to the UK and the European Union much easier. Hawaii take note! Here is the press release: >From the Web Site: http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2011/06/30/new-rules-pet-passports/ New rules mean it will be easier and cheaper to travel abroad with pets It will become cheaper and easier to travel abroad with pets when new rules are introduced at the start of next year. The UK will harmonise its pet movement rules with the rest of the European Union from 1 January 2012, bringing the UK’s Pet Travel Scheme into line with the most recent science. The UK will maintain its high level of protection against animal diseases after the changes, which have the potential to save pet owners around £7 million in fees. Forcing pets to spend six months in quarantine, a practice dating from the 1800s, is no longer necessary because of vastly improved rabies vaccines and treatments. All pets will still need to be vaccinated against rabies. Pets from the EU and listed non-EU countries such as the USA and Australia will no longer need a blood test and will only have to wait 21 days before they travel. Pets from unlisted non-EU countries such as India, Brazil and South Africa will be able to enter the UK if they meet certain strict criteria to ensure they are protected against rabies, including a blood test and a three-month wait before they enter the UK. The changes will ensure the risk of rabies coming to the UK remains extremely low. It’s estimated that the new rules mean there would be one case of rabies in a pet in the UK once every 211 years, with the possibility of a person dying from rabies obtained from a pet once in every 21,000 years. Environment Secretary Caroline Spelman said: “The UK’s quarantine system was designed to combat the threat of rabies in the 19th century and has now been left far behind by scientific advances. It’s time we changed these outdated rules which have caused hardship to generations of pets and pet owners, and those who rely on assistance dogs, with too many animals cooped up unnecessarily. “What is needed is a simpler, evidence-based system for protecting the UK from rabies which recognizes the actual risk to pets and pet owners. The EU’s pet movement scheme has been working very well for nearly a decade, and it makes sense for us to have similar rules. It means the UK will remain protected from rabies and other exotic diseases while making it easier and cheaper for people to take their pets abroad.” Chief Medical Officer Professor Dame Sally Davies said: “Rabies is a very serious human disease and the rabies-free status of the UK must be protected. The pet travel scheme provides important protection of public health by ensuring that pets entering the UK are free of rabies and other infections. “Scientific evidence shows that there is a robust alternative to quarantine in preventing rabies incursion from those countries where there is a high incidence of rabies and good reason for changing our very precautionary rules. The EU pet travel rules have been successful in preventing any cases of rabies occurring in legally moved pets since the scheme started, so harmonizing the UK’s rules with those of the EU will make it easier for those who wish to travel with their pets. “It is important to continue to protect the public against the risk of serious exotic tapeworm infections and the government is pressing to retain our tapeworm controls for pets entering the UK. The wider public health risks from exotic tick-borne infections and the need for tick controls for pets entering the UK will be kept under review.” The UK has been discussing with the European Commission the most appropriate form of tapeworm controls for dogs, to ensure the UK continues to be protected from Echinococcus multilocularis. The Commission has recently indicated that its proposals, expected shortly, would enable the UK and other tapeworm-free countries to retain tapeworm controls, with a requirement that animals be treated between one and five days before returning to the UK. Tick treatment for pet animals returning to the UK will no longer be required. All pet owners travelling abroad with their animals should discuss with their vets the use of treatments, including those designed to control ticks as part of good animal health practice. The UK, along with Ireland, Sweden and Malta, has an exemption from the standard EU pet travel rules. They are all harmonizing their entry rules with the rest of the EU at the same time as the UK. Peter Donahue From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 20:09:02 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:09:02 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Marc, While I agree with you on a philosophical and theoretical level, I think we need to step outside and consider the world as a living, breathing thing. Social "norms" have been established for centuries, and society doesn't seem ready to change anytime. This is not to say we give up, lay down and die, but we're not speaking about the capabilities of the blind, or our intellectual capacity; we're talking about physical movements. And you keep saying that to correct certain blindisms is forcing them to assimilate into the sighted world, but it shouldn't be a blind or sighted issue. It's common for blind kids to exhibit what we refer to as blindisms, but sighted kids do exhibit these behaviors, and they are corrected as well. It can't exactly be a forced assimilation, stifling true natures, of the blind when sighted people do certain things too. Sighted kids are corrected for this physical behavior, and blind kids should be as well. When sighted kids are corrected for rocking or gesticulating inappropriately or making strange faces, is this forcing them into something, are we stifling their true nature? You make this black and white, like it's specific to the blind, and correcting blindisms sends the message that we're not worthy of equalness, but what does this mean for sighted kids? What are they being forced into? How does this hold the blind back when sighted people do it too? Why make it a sighted vs. blind issue? Based on your utopian ideals, how do we currently fit into society when we exhibit physical movements that are not socially acceptable? Do they benefit us? Do they move us forward? We're not talking about personality changes but being aware on our body and how we move it. Insisting to put everything into a category, placing blind against sighted, just perpetuates the idea that we're different; we're not the same, which usually leads to inequality. We can look to the future and attempt change, but we need to be realistic and live in the real world. Changing our physicality has no bearing on us as a person; we retain our personality, but we can learn how to move our body in a socially acceptable way. And we can't pit blind people against sighted people, claiming that changing how we move our body forces us into a sighted world when some sighted people exhibit a lot of similar behavior. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 1 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 12:05:44 -0700 From: Marc Workman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: <71DFF2E6-9A35-443D-A9D2-5F98C387E972 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Greg, I appreciate your response as well. This is a subject i find interesting. My style is to quote and then respond. I find it helpful for ensuring that I'm responding to what a person actually said, and it helps the reader know to which specific point I'm responding, but I think it bothers some people, perhaps it comes across as confrontational. That's not my intention, so I hope it's not interpreted that way. Greg wrote, If a blind person does not use non verbal communication, even this is still interpreted as communicating something, perhaps disinterest or apathy. This interpretation would be a mistake, and it's the sort of mistake that should be corrected through education. Greg wrote, In general though, I have very little control over how people interpret my forms of communication. I can't control how they think or respond to me. On the face of it, this seems right, particularly when the word "control" is used, but has not the NFB been working to change attitudes about blindness for some seventy years? Have not the ways people think about and respond to blind people changed over this time? It's certainly daunting, but I think we have more power than is implied by the quote above. Greg wrote, I think investing time in learning non verbal forms of communication can be very beneficial for blind people in acquiring employment and developing social relationships with others who are not blind.. I think I would take less issue if the choice were: 1, have a perfectly successful and rich life without having to be taught to look and act like sighted people do, or 2, make an effort to learn these skills and a few more opportunities will be open to you, in the same way learning a second or third language opens up some opportunities. Of course, that is not the choice. What I see being said is: if you want to get a job or have friends, you better learn to look and act the way sighted people do. We're not talking about learning skills to increase opportunities; we're talking about severely diminished opportunities for those who fail to conform. Greg wrote, As you observed, we did not choose to "work in China," but I'm not sure why that invalidates the analogy. No matter how we found ourselves in this situation, that doesn't change the tools necessary for communicating to a given group of people. I think the analogy is invalidated because choosing to acquire new skills is not morally equivalent to being forced to abandon certain irrelevant habits/behaviours in favour of adopting other habits/behaviours. A choice between two jobs, one involving work in China and the other not involving work in China, is a reasonable choice. A choice between abandoning certain irrelevant habits/behaviours in order to find a job or maintaining these habits/behaviours and living on social assistance is not a reasonable choice, so we're talking about two different situations. I also do not agree that these "tools" are "necessary" for communication. Necessity suggests that it could not be otherwise, but it's exactly my point that we could and should educate the public that relying on non-verbal communication to the point that those who fail to learn it are significantly disadvantaged is not a matter of necessity. Greg wrote, Its good to look at creating a more accepting society, but even then I think the burden of effective communication is shared between communicator and audience. It doesn't make sense to lay all the blame on the audience, society at large, for misinterpreting my alternative forms of communication that they have no background for understanding. If it is understood as an alternative way of communicating, and if society is failing to respect it as such, then I think it is appropriate to point to this failure to respect an alternative way of communicating as the problem. And I think the solution is to educate and hopefully eventually get to a place where getting a job and making friends does not depend on one's ability to look and act like sighted people. Greg wrote, My point is that adding non verbal communication skills to our repertoire can greatly enhance our communication ability and so are worth learning. This goes back to my earlier point, if it really were like learning a second or third language, which enhances opportunities, I probably wouldn't have a problem, but it doesn't just enhance opportunities; it's essentially a prerequisite for having any reasonable opportunities at all. Cheers, Marc From frandi.galindo at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 20:16:27 2011 From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com (frandi.galindo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:16:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] staring In-Reply-To: <4ECAAF35.8090400@gtwebdesign.us> References: <4eca9e93.09b9340a.183b.31a8@mx.google.com> <4ECAAF35.8090400@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: I get stared at as well. It don't matter if I am on my own, or if I am with friends or family. If you are alone, well, there is nothing you can really do, but if you are with others, and they let you know some one is staring, just ask where they are at, and look their way and shout something to make them feel like a fool. You shouldn't be afraid to go out, even if some asshole tells you to walk in the middle of the street. Don't let that get to you, otherwise you'll end up staying at home. -----Original Message----- From: Icewolf Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 3:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring Hello, I get stared at all the time when Igo to places like Wal-Mart. One time while Iwas walking up the street to the gas station, it is exactly one mile from my front door, I actually had a person tell me I should walk in the middle of the street. It is things like this that make me afraid to even walk alone anymore. Greg W. Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of all days. On 11/21/2011 2:03 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > This is another reason why ignorance needs to be dealt with, in > sighted communities. > I was at a Taco Bell, 30 minutes away from my hometown. > There were two boys laughing at me, because of my blindness. > My brother got on to them, and they left me alone. > It's a shame, that people that don't know any better make fun of us, > when there's really nothing wrong with us. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/21/11, vejas wrote: >> I hate staring. >> People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know >> that they are doing it. >> I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are >> staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me >> that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. >> What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing >> anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder >> do these people even realize they are staring? >> Vejas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 20:20:27 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:20:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting classes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Every dance instructor I've had was hands-on, and it had nothing to do with sight. They observed us and would position us in the proper stances and movements if not doing it right. This was done all the time in ballet, but it was also done when tapping or doing jazz. I'm sure other teachers practice the same method. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 13 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:12:37 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and actingtolearnnaturalmovementandexpressions Message-ID: <99644498E1F547E9BC1788B266266F9D at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Andi, I do speak with instructors ahead of time, whether it be a gym class at the health club or at school. Most instructors are not willing to be hands on; they have to lead the class and go at a certain pace. I agree that we need hands on instruction for anything movement based like dance, not just verbal cues. At least to learn the steps, being shown helps a lot. I did take kundalini yoga though and the instructor was hands on. But she also had time to do this since it was a slow paced class by its nature. Did you take dance in college? Were they elective classes? If your dance team is like mine was, they did more hip hop dances. Ashley From frandi.galindo at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 20:20:31 2011 From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com (frandi.galindo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:20:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Speak to me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have had people do that to me. In the grocery stores the recete will sometimes get handed to whoever is sighted that is with me, I have had people ask my sighted friends what I would like to eat, or can he sign this, Come on, can't people talk to us like they would talk to other sighted customors? Ignorance, what a load of crap -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 2:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Speak to me I was in Pizza hut, and the lady came to take my order. She turns to my sister and asks, "And what does he like to eat this evening?" I said, "I'd like a personal pan pizza please." My nine year old niece said, "Uncle RJ is blind not a baby!" RJ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 21 20:47:09 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:47:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Speak to me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: good response on her part. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 2:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Speak to me I was in Pizza hut, and the lady came to take my order. She turns to my sister and asks, "And what does he like to eat this evening?" I said, "I'd like a personal pan pizza please." My nine year old niece said, "Uncle RJ is blind not a baby!" RJ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 20:57:59 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:57:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movement andexpression In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You are write about ballet being so much more technical, at least I assumed and it is good your feet never bled, I have heard horer stories about it where girls have to bandage their feet every nite. I bet you were adorible at 4 dancing I am trying to get my niece in to it. She wants to do it so bad but money is always an issue. I never got in to cheerleeting, I was more of a tom boy I guess I joind the wrestling team and that is about as far away from dance as you can get. Oddly enough dance helped the wrestling though in terms of balance, coordination, and speed. Also I think dance gives you a better sence of how the body works and that was to my advantage. Did you find cheerleeting fun? Was the dance background helpful in rooteens and such? -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:58 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movement andexpression Andi, I danced for almost 20 years. When I was four, when I started, I was a little elf in a local performance of The Nutcracker, and ever since, I've had a life-long love affair with the stage! Smile. My mom was also a dancer and owned her own studio. She recently opened another dance studio after years of not dancing. My feet never bled from ballet pointe, though I would experience aches and pains after dancing for hours. Since I'm diabetic, I took extra care of my feet. I also was on my high school dance team, but senior year decided to do cheerleading and I ended up a captain for the cheerleading squad. I no longer take formal dance classes since I've not found being blind condusive to certain dances especially ballet, at least in terms of how I use to dance. When turning and such, it becomes disorientating and my balance isn't always great, which does not lead to expert conditions for ballet. I do still dance for fun, and while swing, hip-hop, latin dancing still have a very technical aspect, they are fun and can be easier to pick up. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 10 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:20:54 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions Message-ID: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 21:02:42 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:02:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Speak to me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I first moved to North carolina about 3 and a half years ago, I would go places with my family a lot. The people would speak to my family instead of me, I would speak up and reply as if they had spoken to me and most of the time they got the point and switched their focus on me. My family got in the habbit of shaking their heads and pointing at me to say "talk to her not me". You have to look in their direction or they feel like they are talking to a wall and willspeak to who ever is making eye contact. I do my best to make eye contact, of course it is hard when you can't see but I at least get close enough to get my point across that I am the one to speak to. I did however had an eye doctor who just would not get it and would keep talking to my step mom instead of me. I nearly fell out of my seet trying to lean forward to get my face between the line of site between him and my step mom that he so insistantly tried to keep. Another second longer I was about to say something to him. Most times I don't have to explain to them to speak with me instead of the people I might be with, so I try to give them a bit of time to ketch on. I am a it pussy and will perject in when I feel like they should be talking to me and since I have had eye site before, I am good at giving dirty looks when I am not happy. My aunt and cousins who raised me are very dramatic with non verble comunications so I think I picked up a lot of that, It seems to work well when the sited fails to get the point. For most however, I try to be as polite as possible. I realize that they most likly have never had to be confronted by someone like me, some of the other blind people here has wives and mothers who do a lot of talking for them. So I am having to reteach them a lot of better interaction skills with the blind. On 11/21/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > good response on her part. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 2:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Speak to me > > I was in Pizza hut, and the lady came to take my order. She turns to my > sister and asks, "And what does he like to eat this evening?" I said, "I'd > like a personal pan pizza please." My nine year old niece said, "Uncle RJ is > blind not a baby!" RJ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 21:06:00 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:06:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] staring In-Reply-To: References: <4eca9e93.09b9340a.183b.31a8@mx.google.com> <4ECAAF35.8090400@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: Oh Frandi, you sound like a hoot. On 11/21/11, frandi.galindo at gmail.com wrote: > I get stared at as well. It don't matter if I am on my own, or if I am with > friends or family. If you are alone, well, there is nothing you can really > do, but if you are with others, and they let you know some one is staring, > just ask where they are at, and look their way and shout something to make > them feel like a fool. You shouldn't be afraid to go out, even if some > asshole tells you to walk in the middle of the street. Don't let that get > to you, otherwise you'll end up staying at home. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Icewolf > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 3:06 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring > > Hello, > I get stared at all the time when Igo to places like Wal-Mart. One time > while Iwas walking up the street to the gas station, it is exactly one > mile from my front door, I actually had a person tell me I should walk > in the middle of the street. It is things like this that make me afraid > to even walk alone anymore. > Greg W. > > Yesterday is forever gone, tomorrow may never come, today is the day of all > days. > > > On 11/21/2011 2:03 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> This is another reason why ignorance needs to be dealt with, in >> sighted communities. >> I was at a Taco Bell, 30 minutes away from my hometown. >> There were two boys laughing at me, because of my blindness. >> My brother got on to them, and they left me alone. >> It's a shame, that people that don't know any better make fun of us, >> when there's really nothing wrong with us. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 11/21/11, vejas wrote: >>> I hate staring. >>> People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know >>> that they are doing it. >>> I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are >>> staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me >>> that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. >>> What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing >>> anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder >>> do these people even realize they are staring? >>> Vejas >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 21:12:06 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:12:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking good in pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I graduated from highschool, the lady who took our pics picked up the camra and moved it around to take our picture so we would be looking in to the camra instead of off to the side. I was told that our picks came out really well. On 11/21/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > true. I usually look okay in pictures, except for the smile, because it is > forced. > I try and think of something funny to make my face happy and smile. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 1:32 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Looking good in pictures > > Being photogenic in pictures is a problem for blind and sighted people > alike. Even the most gorgeous people can look terrible in photos. I > don't really know why this is. You can smile and pose just fine and > still not look great in photos, while others can look great no matter > what. Pose and facial expression often have a lot to do with it, but not > always. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 27 > Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:44:02 -0500 > From: "Andi" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > Message-ID: <9EB11EA5234244CA94ADB542924019E8 at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ks_c_5601-1987"; > reply-type=original > > That is a problem with blind and sighted alike. I can't smile a good > smile > just because someone tells me to for a picture. It usually looks like > what > it is, forced. However sighted people have the same problems many of my > > friends expressed this problem. I think thinking a private thought > about > something funny to you is great if it gets you to smile a real smile. > It > doesn't really matter if others think it's funny if you do and it gets > you > to smile when the camera flashes > > Andi. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 21:12:43 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:12:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Speak to me References: Message-ID: <6494D123A0DD403EA1A7D96DEF34E191@hometwxakonvzn> I was looking in the woman's direction. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lea williams" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Speak to me > When I first moved to North carolina about 3 and a half years ago, I > would go places with my family a lot. The people would speak to my > family instead of me, I would speak up and reply as if they had spoken > to me and most of the time they got the point and switched their focus > on me. My family got in the habbit of shaking their heads and pointing > at me to say "talk to her not me". You have to look in their direction > or they feel like they are talking to a wall and willspeak to who ever > is making eye contact. I do my best to make eye contact, of course it > is hard when you can't see but I at least get close enough to get my > point across that I am the one to speak to. I did however had an eye > doctor who just would not get it and would keep talking to my step mom > instead of me. I nearly fell out of my seet trying to lean forward to > get my face between the line of site between him and my step mom that > he so insistantly tried to keep. Another second longer I was about to > say something to him. Most times I don't have to explain to them to > speak with me instead of the people I might be with, so I try to give > them a bit of time to ketch on. I am a it pussy and will perject in > when I feel like they should be talking to me and since I have had eye > site before, I am good at giving dirty looks when I am not happy. My > aunt and cousins who raised me are very dramatic with non verble > comunications so I think I picked up a lot of that, It seems to work > well when the sited fails to get the point. For most however, I try to > be as polite as possible. I realize that they most likly have never > had to be confronted by someone like me, some of the other blind > people here has wives and mothers who do a lot of talking for them. So > I am having to reteach them a lot of better interaction skills with > the blind. > > On 11/21/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> good response on her part. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 2:50 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Speak to me >> >> I was in Pizza hut, and the lady came to take my order. She turns to my >> sister and asks, "And what does he like to eat this evening?" I said, >> "I'd >> like a personal pan pizza please." My nine year old niece said, "Uncle RJ >> is >> blind not a baby!" RJ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Lea Williams > > Phone; > 704-732-4470 > Skipe; > Lea.williams738 > Facebook > http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 21:21:55 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:21:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, I was sighted when I minored in theatre, but I took a couple of performance-based classes while in my second go-around with university. I know we have several blind theatre majors here though. I memorized my lines with JAWS- I have a good retention with my short-term memory. If you do an entire play, though, I think it would be best to have a Braille copy of the script. I did some directing, which I love. I helped direct a few scenes for a class even though I wasn't registered for it. The instructor also taught another class that I was enrolled in, and she asked if I would be willing to help direct in her other class. I mostly referred to my computer for the script and my notes. I had specific ideas for the set, costuming and actors. It helped to go in already prepared, not trying to figure things out as we went along. You could use your cane on stage, but if you're not suppose to be blind, it may look a little odd to the audience. Perhaps you could grow very familiar with the set so you could walk around safely. Stage sets are suppose to be set up the exact way each time, so if you were accustomed to it, it would make maneuvering around it a bit more easy, and you could leave your cane off stage so when done, you had your cane to get around with. Facial expression is a vital part of the acting process. You want to convey the right emotions and characteristics connected with a character. We would do face exercises along with body exercises to warm up, and loosen things up. Whether stage acting or acting for film and television, using appropriate facial expressions, and being expressive in general, is very important. When acting, you create specific expressions, movements, inflections, tones, etc. Every little detail is disected and explored, then the actor constructs the character, cognitive of each movement, each expression and how each word is said. When running lines, you may say the same word, or phrase, over and over in order to capture the proper tone and inflection. The voice is probably the most important aspect of theatre because tone can convey and imply a lot. I was in a local theatre's play, The Outsiders, and we wore face masks so our performance was dependent on the voice and body movement. We had to convey so much with voice and body. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:43:22 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: [nabs-l] taking acting classes Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi all, What Bridgit said about acting class brought back memories. She said ?Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes.? Bridgit, you have a minor in theatre; I haven?t met a blind person who did that before. Of course you were sighted, so can draw upon your experience learning facial expressions and visual expressions. Did you braille the script for memorizing it? I cannot memorize by listening except for song lyrics! I?m wondering how a blind actor would move around the stage safely. I mean you have obstacles up there and won?t have your cane since you?re another character. I just depended on my vision. Interesting that Bridgit says acting class pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. I don?t recall that happening. We did focus on voice though; like volume, tone and expression. I took acting in high school and the teacher was very easy. I did not learn much from it. We spent too much time watching movies rather than acting. But I won?t forget our final where we had to do a monologue. That was hard! I prefered working with a partner because their words clued me into what I had to say. In college, I also took acting. We did a number of things. They ranged from partner work acting scenes, improvization, something like sherades where you stand in front of everyone and pretend to do a day activity, and of course actual acting with small groups or a partner. We did warmups to loosen up; the instructor was very accomodating and showed me these stretches and exercises. I enjoyed it. Our acting exercises revolved around sensory awareness, and a lot of this was not visual. A few were visual exercises which we adapted; like mimicking what someone did with their hands. She stressed to be aware of all your senses and surroundings. For instance, we did an exercise that you responded to someone?s tone. Another was where you simply went and touched a classmate?s hand. She guided us in what to observe. Was it rough or soft? Rinkled or smooth? Boney? I guessed the guy I touched was athletic due to his large muscular hands, and If I remember correctly, I was right. She did say you had to show expression, but not just facial expressions, but expressions and movement with your whole body. We were definitely judged on our performance by peers and the instructor who herself was an actress. Still, it was fun. She never said anything about me needing to be visually expressive, so maybe I was expressive enough as my girl characters, or maybe it didn?t occur to her to say anything. Oh, we did not watch movies either. So, I got a lot out of the class. For the acting scenes, I asked the school to braille them. I got an A in the class. Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 21:30:47 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:30:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This, to me, seems like the thread has strayed into the almost absurd, smile. Though eating with one's hands is done in some cultures, it's best to remember that these cultures often use some kind of flat bread as a utensil of sorts. They're usually not eating everything with their hands, but are holding another food item in which to scoop food up with. We also have to consider how hygenic this is. Even after washing hands, we continue to touch objects. Eating food with our hands could lead to health-related issues. Not to mention the mess, grin! Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 17 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:24:33 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sean, I believe eating with one's hands is more common than using silverware in some cultures. So, eating with silverware is another example of a norm that is culturally constructed but is largely arbitrary, and as far as I know, eating with one's hands never harms anyone. I fail to see why eating with the hands would be discouraged in an "ideal" society, unless you are arguing that an "ideal" society is one in which people always conform to common standards, and I think Marc is arguing the opposite point. I think expecting blind people to conform to sighted norms is similar to expecting someone from a culture where eating is done with the hands to use a fork and spoon. There is definitely merit to both sides of this larger issue, but the issue of whether or not to expect conformity in general strays from the blindness realm. >From a pragmatic perspective, I think it is beneficial to give blind children as many tools as possible to attain success and acceptance, including information about how the sighted majority behaves and what they expect. As blind children grow into adulthood, they can make their own choices about how much they want to conform and satisfy the expectations of others versus maintaining their individual identities. This is a balance that all people deal with, sighted and blind. Best, Arielle From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 01:38:50 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 17:38:50 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] staring In-Reply-To: References: <4eca9e93.09b9340a.183b.31a8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <71D451DCFAA044D8B751919FA15EB5B2@userPC> I get staired at too but my mom and have fun with it! We feel you have to have fun with it because it makes it easyer to deal with! Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:03 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring This is another reason why ignorance needs to be dealt with, in sighted communities. I was at a Taco Bell, 30 minutes away from my hometown. There were two boys laughing at me, because of my blindness. My brother got on to them, and they left me alone. It's a shame, that people that don't know any better make fun of us, when there's really nothing wrong with us. Blessings, Joshua On 11/21/11, vejas wrote: > I hate staring. > People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know > that they are doing it. > I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are > staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me > that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. > What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing > anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder > do these people even realize they are staring? > Vejas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.p ccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 01:39:38 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 17:39:38 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] The 10 college majors with the lowest unemploymentrates In-Reply-To: <4eca9fb7.271e340a.4ae5.3b8b@mx.google.com> References: <4eca9fb7.271e340a.4ae5.3b8b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1235E61199FA418C9B54E9ADC69FDA07@userPC> Place your cane against the back of the foot of the person in front of you so when they move up you move up too. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of vejas Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The 10 college majors with the lowest unemploymentrates Hi, I had a question about inganding in line properly. I am a freshman and when I buy my own lunch, I have to figure out when to move up front in the line. Do any of you have any suggesttions for standing in line and knowing when to move, as well as knowing when it's my turn? Thanks. Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 01:10:07 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:10:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] staring In-Reply-To: <71D451DCFAA044D8B751919FA15EB5B2@userPC> References: <4eca9e93.09b9340a.183b.31a8@mx.google.com> <71D451DCFAA044D8B751919FA15EB5B2@userPC> Message-ID: This is true, it does make it easier and you don't make yourself look like a full popping off. People are going to stare at all kinds of things, and one of them being that your blind and they might have not seen someone who was blind and are just curious. I was with a friend once and the daughter wasn't feeling well and was using a wheel chair while we were picking up medication and a couple of other things for her at wal mart, she was imbarrassed cause people were staring at her for being in a wheel chair. If anything with her, they propley pittied her, but with us, they might pitty us, or might just be curious as to how it is we do things because they have never seen blind people doing anything before. Not saying that blind people do nothing, but that they haven't seen a blind person and do not know what to expect or wonder if their ideas are true or not. Not sure if I made any since. On 11/21/11, Rania Ismail CMT wrote: > I get staired at too but my mom and have fun with it! We feel you have to > have fun with it because it makes it easyer to deal with! > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:03 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring > > This is another reason why ignorance needs to be dealt with, in > sighted communities. > I was at a Taco Bell, 30 minutes away from my hometown. > There were two boys laughing at me, because of my blindness. > My brother got on to them, and they left me alone. > It's a shame, that people that don't know any better make fun of us, > when there's really nothing wrong with us. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/21/11, vejas wrote: >> I hate staring. >> People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know >> that they are doing it. >> I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are >> staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me >> that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. >> What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing >> anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder >> do these people even realize they are staring? >> Vejas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.p > ccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From wmodnl at hotmail.com Tue Nov 22 04:52:11 2011 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:52:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Legal system not supporting blind people In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: SO, the taking of the baby thing is not all uncommon. Here in NYc, a blue law exists on the books that demands this to happen. Yea Lovely country prowd to be an AAmerican (not), then we wonder why the world hates us. We should look back at us as a whole. We are our own wurst enomy. People have been abusive to children; so, we are paying for someone elses problems. Let us take the example of how every add on tv is to lidigate someone or a company. Many of them say: "If you are disabled..." People have abused disability just like they have abused other things. I am not saying that this is an excuse for real discrimination; however, I think that some of our problems happen b/c someone else has used disability or blindness to get over. Last week, I was walking downtown. Someone in a rage saw me and became mad saying that his taxes go to my "free ride." Look at that annomosity. It is going to take years and maybe a whole genoration to change things. > From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:54:39 -0600 > Subject: [nabs-l] Legal system not supporting blind people > > Chris, > > Again, based on technical definitions, you're absolutely correct, > however, as I stated, our official government system is listed as a > democracy. We don't follow the technical attributes of a democracy- it's > not a one man, one vote system, but nonetheless, we're considered a > democracy. And as Jedi said, we're a representative democracy. > > You say that you always have to correct people when they claim America > is a democracy, but why, since we are taught this in school, and > America's official government system is listed as such? > > Now, we have adopted anti-discrimination laws, but my point is that we > live in a country that has always, from it's inception, claimed to be a > country based on equality, but this equality hasn't always extended to > every citizen, or even person, living here. Yes, we have drafted and > adopted anti-discrimination laws, but it took years to do so. It took a > hundred years, from the Civil War, to allow racial/ethnic minorities > true equality in this country. Again, women weren't allowed to vote > until the 1920's, and we're still paid less, on average, than men no > matter the position. How long did it take to give people with > disabilities rights? We're still fighting for many of these rights. And > hello, gay rights? Regardless of where you stand on this issue, it's > very clear that gays are still very much discriminated against. > > despite of certain current wins for rights and equality for the blind, > first, we shouldn't have to fight for them to begin with, and second, > what about equality to accessing information, use of technology, > provisions to take LSAT exams, and other exams, in a method equal to our > sighted peers? If our legal system supported us, we wouldn't have to > file law suits like this. > > And hello, what about the young couple in Missouri? Just two years ago a > couple in MO had their baby taken by CPS and the only reason was their > blindness. A foster-parent raised the baby for two months, leaving the > parents with no memories of the first-two months of their child's life. > If you don't have children you might not understand this, but it's a > huge deal. Where the laws protecting them? No anti-discrimination law > helped them. CPS, to my understanding, still has not apologized or even > admited to any wrong doing. This is a perfect example of how a popular > mindset is supported by our legal system, whether willing or unwilling. > Had a law said that blindness alone isn't a reason for CPS to > investigate a couple, this baby and her parents would have been together > from the beginning just like most sighted parents and children. How is > this not a legal issue? > > And what about Braille legislation? We hear over and over how only ten > percent of blind students are taught to read and write Braille, so where > are the laws allowing us to choose the right medium for us? An > instructor of teachers going into the field to work specifically with > blind students said, and I almost quote, that students and parents > aren't allowed to choose what medium they learn for reading writing; > instead, data developed by educators helps "professionals" figure out > what is "best" for a student. As we know, this "data," or criteria, is > flawed and gives blind students no right to select what is best for > them. Again, where are the laws backing us instead of backing a flawed > education system that has failed blind students for years? > > While we've adopted anti-discrimination laws through the years, we still > support certain discriminatory behavior and ideas with our legal system > because of the lack of laws supporting us. And I point out once again > that no one- blind, black, gay, etc.- should have to campaign for fair > and equal treatment. We should have the same rights and be treated on > equal terms no matter personal feelings. If our legal system supported > all minorities in this way, society wouldn't have a legal basis in which > to discriminate against anyone. > > People are as racist as ever, but laws now say you can't deny service > based on skin color or ethnicity. People still hold ideas that certain > minorities are not as equal, but laws keep these people from segregating > and discriminating, at least doing so with legal support. > > So where are the laws supporting the blind? Why can't I have a child > without having CPS show up at my door to double check my child is safe? > Most sighted people take a child home and no one contacts CPS, but just > because I'm blind, this is a potential issue? And why can't I learn > Braille to help me read and write? Technology is great, or my eyes may > be able to see some large print, but Braille would make me so much more > efficient. And yet no laws make it illegal for the education system to > deny me this knowledge. > > Many of our problems, though stemming from societal attitudes, exist > because we have no legal basis in which to demand rights, and be treated > equally, with issues taken for granted by many. This, my friend, is > completely a legal thing, and our government fails us each time we are > denied a right, discriminated against and have to lobby for legislation > putting us on an equal footing. We could have laws supporting us so, > though people will always discriminate, there would be no legal basis > for people to get away with this behavior. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:57:34 -0500 > From: Chris Nusbaum > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities > Message-ID: <4ec6d4f7.2673340a.5d11.7b12 at mx.google.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi Bridgit, > > I'm sorry I took that too literally, as it wasn't meant to be > taken that way. A lot of people get those two forms of > government mixed up, and I have to explain to them that we're not > a true democracy. If we were, all decisions would be made by the > people. Well who knows, maybe that would be better. LOL Anyway, > I don't think the discrimination that we are currently faced with > in this country is not because of the laws and system of > government because we now have a lot of anti-discrimination laws > in place; the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Rehabilitation Act of > 1973, The Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act (IDEA,) > and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA.) So, what laws that > haven't been repealed are supporting discrimination against us? > We almost had one in the subminimum wage bill, but thank God that > was voted down. Now we just need cosponsors for the replacement > bill, the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. Has > anyone on this list contacted their Congresspeople? If so, what > were your experiences? > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From carlymih at earthlink.net Tue Nov 22 07:46:46 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:46:46 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111121234405.01d71b40@earthlink.net> Hi, Bridgit, I have been thinking about this for a while and agree that, it is nearly impossible to integrate with sighted folks, if there are an excess of blindisms, with which someone must contend. for today, Car I At 10:18 AM 11/21/2011, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >Carly, > >But will that kid get a job? Date? Be accepted by other peers? I'm not >trying to generalize and say it can never happen because I know people >with blindisms, and they are active and social, but I know many more who >aren't. Whether it's right or wrong, this is how the world works, and >suggesting we create a utopia doesn't help things because outside of >philosophical discussions, the world isn't going to change much. This >isn't a defeatist attitude, but a realistic one. Just look at what is >happening in the world, then tell me a kid can be treated as equal who >rocks, pokes their eyes and any other blindism. We can't change being >blind; we can't change what our eyes look like, or how they function, >but blindisms aren't socially acceptable, and learning to not do these >behaviors isn't stifling one's inner nature, but it's teaching them >behaviors that will help them integrate into society. > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >Message: 9 >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:03:30 -0800 >From: Carly Mihalakis >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > , "National Association of Blind Students >mailing > list" >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111119125543.01e0a1a0 at earthlink.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed > > >Good afternoon, Ashley I think, > >What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes >upon which are plastered identifiers like >"blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People >ought to feel they can just do what feels right, >and comfortable and not be pressured to shead >some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha >think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in >this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he >doesn't happen to have so-called cog native >impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, >clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a > >culture learn body language and facial > >expressions from observing others; our culture > >emphasises personal space, shaking hands to > >greet, and eye contact just as some examples. > >Blind and low vision people won???t see it, but > >if someone works with us, its still a learned > >behavior; we just learn in a different way. I > >think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking > >hands are natural since I learned early on as > >did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became > >more automatic. I also like your comment that we > >should try to extinguish behaviors associated > >with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is > >one of them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural > >to learn something now; I could do it, but it > >would probably be stiffer and not as natural > >like if I learned gestures. What I do though in > >a presentation is look around the room from left > >to right; speakers to do this to get attention > >and establish themselves before talking to a > >group; I do it even though I cannot see a lot, > >especially toward the back of the room. I can > >also say yes or no with my head because I was > >taught early on. But other nonverbals such as > >winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with > >the hand were not taught and I think I'd be a > >little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still > >it would be good to try and learn. Ashley > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 13:41:53 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 08:41:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] staring In-Reply-To: References: <4eca9e93.09b9340a.183b.31a8@mx.google.com><71D451DCFAA044D8B751919FA15EB5B2@userPC> Message-ID: I say make yourself look really good then they have a reason to stare, like "Dam that person looks good." I know this isn't the real reason people stare at us as blind people, but when I go to the club I don't use my cane and people can't tell I am blind with out my cane, at least this is what I have been told. I get a lot of stares then to, I never thought of my self as pretty but I get looks in a positive way. Staring isn't always bad, it can mean you look good. I have been stared at negativly to every day and the energy is different, but maybe it helps to pretend it is positive staring all of the time in stead of just some of the time. If not have fun with it. I have a friend with CP so she has a different wwalk or sometimes if we go a long distence she is in her wheele chair and she always makes people feel stupid when their staring at us. She is more blunt than I am but I admire it. She says things like "I am going to give you a description of the room because you can't see it but some person is rubber necking trying to find out how we can even be breathing on are own." I replaced her language and description of the person which she always inserts with person to avoid offending anyone who does not like swaring. Most of the time this much roodness isn't necessary, but sometimes it is because some people just need more blunt discoragement. Andi -----Original Message----- From: Lea williams Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 8:10 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring This is true, it does make it easier and you don't make yourself look like a full popping off. People are going to stare at all kinds of things, and one of them being that your blind and they might have not seen someone who was blind and are just curious. I was with a friend once and the daughter wasn't feeling well and was using a wheel chair while we were picking up medication and a couple of other things for her at wal mart, she was imbarrassed cause people were staring at her for being in a wheel chair. If anything with her, they propley pittied her, but with us, they might pitty us, or might just be curious as to how it is we do things because they have never seen blind people doing anything before. Not saying that blind people do nothing, but that they haven't seen a blind person and do not know what to expect or wonder if their ideas are true or not. Not sure if I made any since. On 11/21/11, Rania Ismail CMT wrote: > I get staired at too but my mom and have fun with it! We feel you have to > have fun with it because it makes it easyer to deal with! > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:03 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring > > This is another reason why ignorance needs to be dealt with, in > sighted communities. > I was at a Taco Bell, 30 minutes away from my hometown. > There were two boys laughing at me, because of my blindness. > My brother got on to them, and they left me alone. > It's a shame, that people that don't know any better make fun of us, > when there's really nothing wrong with us. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 11/21/11, vejas wrote: >> I hate staring. >> People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know >> that they are doing it. >> I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are >> staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me >> that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. >> What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing >> anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder >> do these people even realize they are staring? >> Vejas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.p > ccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 22 21:33:56 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:33:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Cheerleading & dance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With ballet, if dancing en Pointe, I've also heard of feet bleeding, soreness and pain. A friend of mine ended up with gnarled feet, and a lot of us experienced minor aches at times, but I've never met anyone whose feet bled. If you dance professionally it may happen since you dance for literally hours each day, or if you don't take care of your feet, or properly wrap them before dancing, bleeding could happen. Dance is very physical and can be a stress on the body no matter the type of dance, but ballet, though beautiful to watch, takes precision and tons of practice. As I said before, your body has to adjust to positions that aren't always natural. It takes so much control and strength. Dance doesn't necessarily help with cheerleading, though it doesn't hurt either. It depends on what a particular squad does. Some cheerleaders do incorporate dance into routines, others not really. Most focus more on acrobatic-like routines. It also depends on what level of cheerleading it is. High school cheerleaders tend to just do simple routines and cheers, though there are plenty of high school cheerleading squads that compete, and they will incorporate dance and gymnastics into routines. College cheerleaders usually are gymnast and do more acrobatics than anything else, though some schools don't, but for the most part, college level cheerleading requires a strong background in gymnastics. Professional cheerleaders are heavy on the dance aspect. Most professional cheerleaders have dance backgrounds. Dancing, as you mentioned, does help with balance along with strengthening and toning so it can definitely can be helpful for athletes. In fact, many professional athletes such as football players, tennis players and hockey players, just to list a few, take dance, ballet in particular, to help with balance and endurance. I enjoyed cheerleading at first, but half way through the school year, all the politics made it not fun at all. Girls were upset with choice of captains, me being one; some girls were upset with choice of pep rally routines. My sister and I, being the only girls on the squad with dance backgrounds, were asked by our coach to choreograph dance routines and teach them to the squad. A lot of the girls wanted more club style dancing incorporated in, keep in mind this was the late 90's, smile. And we had so many clicks within our cheer squad alone it was ridiculous. I should probably explain that we had 20 girls on the squad, the largest squad in years for my high school which usually only had around 12 to 15 girls selected each year. So cheering itself I enjoyed, and my experience shouldn't cloud the judgment of others possibly considering cheering since my issues were specific to my squad. Cheering can look good on college applications since universities consider extra-curricular activities and volunteer work. I think it's important to participate in extra-curricular activities whether it be sports, music, after-school groups. It just helps to make a more well-rounded person. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 21 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:57:59 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movement andexpression Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original You are write about ballet being so much more technical, at least I assumed and it is good your feet never bled, I have heard horer stories about it where girls have to bandage their feet every nite. I bet you were adorible at 4 dancing I am trying to get my niece in to it. She wants to do it so bad but money is always an issue. I never got in to cheerleeting, I was more of a tom boy I guess I joind the wrestling team and that is about as far away from dance as you can get. Oddly enough dance helped the wrestling though in terms of balance, coordination, and speed. Also I think dance gives you a better sence of how the body works and that was to my advantage. Did you find cheerleeting fun? Was the dance background helpful in rooteens and such? From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 22 21:40:57 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:40:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Staring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But when we "have fun" with it, don't we send the message that the behavior is okay? I'm not suggesting we become combative or rude, but acting in a manner that will appear as though being blind is indeed an oddity and something to be stared at has the potential to tell those staring that it's perfectly acceptable behavior. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 28 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 17:38:50 -0800 From: "Rania Ismail CMT" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring Message-ID: <71D451DCFAA044D8B751919FA15EB5B2 at userPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I get staired at too but my mom and have fun with it! We feel you have to have fun with it because it makes it easyer to deal with! Rania, From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 01:32:44 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 17:32:44 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Staring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0731B5AF68DF4D579C3B40F898BFD7C9@userPC> No we just have fun with the fact that they are stairing at me! We just smile and say hi! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 1:41 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Staring But when we "have fun" with it, don't we send the message that the behavior is okay? I'm not suggesting we become combative or rude, but acting in a manner that will appear as though being blind is indeed an oddity and something to be stared at has the potential to tell those staring that it's perfectly acceptable behavior. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 28 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 17:38:50 -0800 From: "Rania Ismail CMT" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring Message-ID: <71D451DCFAA044D8B751919FA15EB5B2 at userPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I get staired at too but my mom and have fun with it! We feel you have to have fun with it because it makes it easyer to deal with! Rania, _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From amylsabo at comcast.net Wed Nov 23 00:46:28 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 17:46:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones In-Reply-To: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> References: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <02e001cca979$562a6e20$027f4a60$@comcast.net> Hello Ashley, As to your response on which phone to purchase from Verizon which is also accessible for your needs and, it doesn't have internet access is the one that I have purchased from Verizon. It's called the Samsung haven. And, I really like it! All of the features are voice activated but, I also have a xd card in it which has mobile speak too! Anyway, I hope this information is helpful to you. Take care and, good luck in finding your accessible phone from Verizon. Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Hi all, Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I’m planning to get a verizon phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but I don’t care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. I’d like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if possible. So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don’t know if they still are produced. What accessible phones do you have and like? Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From amylsabo at comcast.net Wed Nov 23 00:51:36 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 17:51:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight In-Reply-To: <4ec8721a.a524340a.6f1e.28ae@mx.google.com> References: <4ec8721a.a524340a.6f1e.28ae@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <02e101cca97a$0dd8d480$298a7d80$@comcast.net> Hello chris, Thanks for your understanding of this and other stuff related to the nabs link audio site and other stuff in people's lives... thanks for your post and, hopefully you will get the files soon.... Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Can someone, David or someone else who has the recording, just send me the file attached in an email so I can listen to it? Looks like it will be a while before the site is relaunched. David, I understand that you have many things to run, so I'm not getting impatient with you. You've got Audio Access FM to run, and you're doing a great job with that! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 23 01:19:21 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 20:19:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versuses other minority groups Message-ID: 537e9ac1-72a2-4261-abeb-aa793d2d79af@samobile.net Bridgit, It's a thought supported by research. Back in the 80s and 90s, Romanian children in orphanages were studied. Back then, these orphanages were known for keeping their kids cooped up in small spaces with not a lot of adult attention. Researchers found that these children exhibited some pretty strange mannerisms of movement and behavior, much like the ones we often find in blind children who didn't get much opportunity to explore the world and socialize with others. Annecdotally, we've found that getting blind children involved in the world from birth, as we do other children, seems to lessen the impact of unusual developments of behavior. As a sort of research, we could each consider , the kind of mannerisms we have or used to have, and think about whether or not we had much opportunity for exploration. I'd be interested to see if there is a contingent relationship here based just on our observations of our own lives. As for myself, I used to rock a lot, but I also used to have a fair amount of exploration. In my case, I wonder if I didn't pick up rocking from my mother; she used to rock quite a lot herself and she is sighted. I will say that I didn't have much social opportunity; I lived in an isolated situation most of my younger years with few children to play with. I think I experienced some fear regarding certain activities and so didn't engage in them much. As a result, I don't think I developed physically as well as I maybe could have until much later. As for the rocking, my mother and I both decided to try a new technique to kick the habit: we both decided to substitute the behavior for one considered more "normal." I don't know how well the technique worked for my mother, but it worked for me; I suspect changing my behavior caused me to consider it consciously and thus extinguish it. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Jedi, > You bring up an interesting point: If blind children are allowed to > explore and experience just like other children, won't they exhibit more > "normal" physical behavior? Though a lot of things are picked up through > learned behavior, a lot of physical movement and expressions are natural > and instinctive as a human. I would assume a blind child allowed to be a > kid would naturally pick up certain behaviors and expressions. Children > who are sheltered and not allowed to explore space and experience the > world, I would think would have these natural instincts stifled and > suppressed, blind or sighted. Just a thought. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:03:29 -0600 > From: SA Mobile > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups > Message-ID: <59D3B0F7-4477-4E92-B5B5-5D952EDADD67 at samobile.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > A lot of mannerisms go away naturally when blind kids are allowed to > move naturally like anyone else. > Respectfully Submitted > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From amylsabo at comcast.net Wed Nov 23 01:21:51 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 18:21:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight In-Reply-To: <4ec87221.a524340a.6f1e.28b6@mx.google.com> References: <4ec87221.a524340a.6f1e.28b6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <02e201cca97e$47d0c720$d7725560$@comcast.net> Hello all, We all know of this problems and the circumstances in regards to the nabs link audio site... I don't know what to tell you all but, things have happened and, hopefully they will get settled on this matter soon! So, please all be patient on this and, let's not possess this list on this matter anymore okay! Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Dave, we've been waiting since like August! I understand David has a bunch of stuff to take care of with his running of AudioAccessFM, but something really must be going on here, to have the Web page not work for four months, even after a change of Web hosting providers and like three emails to the list from the Webmaster himself saying that it's back up. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! Sent from my BrailleNote Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews References: , Message-ID: With the help of nfb and so on, we can start to change things here. At least we have a chance to change it. If there's a better country, go to it. But good luck changing it. As to losing your child just because you are blind, there's not even flawed logic to that. And hopefully that will change in time as well. I just became a grandpa for the first time on the first of this month. Someone mentioned on this list that a family was separated for the first two months of a baby's existence. The comment was made that that is a very long time and lots of changes happen during those first two months. How true. There's been so many changes in the first three weeks of Zander's life, it is unreal. (By the way, if I may boast a little bit here, my grandson is vcuter than yours.) Having said that, I cannot imagine losing your child to a bureaucrat, just because you are blind. That's one reason, I will fight to make sure such things do not happen anymore. So let me lend my voice to those in the federation who are helping to make this change happen. My second grandson will be born in the next month. I get a second grandson that is cuter than yours, and both in the span of a couple months. Keep fighting people. -----Original Message----- From: wmodnl wmodnl Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 10:52 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Legal system not supporting blind people SO, the taking of the baby thing is not all uncommon. Here in NYc, a blue law exists on the books that demands this to happen. Yea Lovely country prowd to be an AAmerican (not), then we wonder why the world hates us. We should look back at us as a whole. We are our own wurst enomy. People have been abusive to children; so, we are paying for someone elses problems. Let us take the example of how every add on tv is to lidigate someone or a company. Many of them say: "If you are disabled..." People have abused disability just like they have abused other things. I am not saying that this is an excuse for real discrimination; however, I think that some of our problems happen b/c someone else has used disability or blindness to get over. Last week, I was walking downtown. Someone in a rage saw me and became mad saying that his taxes go to my "free ride." Look at that annomosity. It is going to take years and maybe a whole genoration to change things. > From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:54:39 -0600 > Subject: [nabs-l] Legal system not supporting blind people > > Chris, > > Again, based on technical definitions, you're absolutely correct, > however, as I stated, our official government system is listed as a > democracy. We don't follow the technical attributes of a democracy- it's > not a one man, one vote system, but nonetheless, we're considered a > democracy. And as Jedi said, we're a representative democracy. > > You say that you always have to correct people when they claim America > is a democracy, but why, since we are taught this in school, and > America's official government system is listed as such? > > Now, we have adopted anti-discrimination laws, but my point is that we > live in a country that has always, from it's inception, claimed to be a > country based on equality, but this equality hasn't always extended to > every citizen, or even person, living here. Yes, we have drafted and > adopted anti-discrimination laws, but it took years to do so. It took a > hundred years, from the Civil War, to allow racial/ethnic minorities > true equality in this country. Again, women weren't allowed to vote > until the 1920's, and we're still paid less, on average, than men no > matter the position. How long did it take to give people with > disabilities rights? We're still fighting for many of these rights. And > hello, gay rights? Regardless of where you stand on this issue, it's > very clear that gays are still very much discriminated against. > > despite of certain current wins for rights and equality for the blind, > first, we shouldn't have to fight for them to begin with, and second, > what about equality to accessing information, use of technology, > provisions to take LSAT exams, and other exams, in a method equal to our > sighted peers? If our legal system supported us, we wouldn't have to > file law suits like this. > > And hello, what about the young couple in Missouri? Just two years ago a > couple in MO had their baby taken by CPS and the only reason was their > blindness. A foster-parent raised the baby for two months, leaving the > parents with no memories of the first-two months of their child's life. > If you don't have children you might not understand this, but it's a > huge deal. Where the laws protecting them? No anti-discrimination law > helped them. CPS, to my understanding, still has not apologized or even > admited to any wrong doing. This is a perfect example of how a popular > mindset is supported by our legal system, whether willing or unwilling. > Had a law said that blindness alone isn't a reason for CPS to > investigate a couple, this baby and her parents would have been together > from the beginning just like most sighted parents and children. How is > this not a legal issue? > > And what about Braille legislation? We hear over and over how only ten > percent of blind students are taught to read and write Braille, so where > are the laws allowing us to choose the right medium for us? An > instructor of teachers going into the field to work specifically with > blind students said, and I almost quote, that students and parents > aren't allowed to choose what medium they learn for reading writing; > instead, data developed by educators helps "professionals" figure out > what is "best" for a student. As we know, this "data," or criteria, is > flawed and gives blind students no right to select what is best for > them. Again, where are the laws backing us instead of backing a flawed > education system that has failed blind students for years? > > While we've adopted anti-discrimination laws through the years, we still > support certain discriminatory behavior and ideas with our legal system > because of the lack of laws supporting us. And I point out once again > that no one- blind, black, gay, etc.- should have to campaign for fair > and equal treatment. We should have the same rights and be treated on > equal terms no matter personal feelings. If our legal system supported > all minorities in this way, society wouldn't have a legal basis in which > to discriminate against anyone. > > People are as racist as ever, but laws now say you can't deny service > based on skin color or ethnicity. People still hold ideas that certain > minorities are not as equal, but laws keep these people from segregating > and discriminating, at least doing so with legal support. > > So where are the laws supporting the blind? Why can't I have a child > without having CPS show up at my door to double check my child is safe? > Most sighted people take a child home and no one contacts CPS, but just > because I'm blind, this is a potential issue? And why can't I learn > Braille to help me read and write? Technology is great, or my eyes may > be able to see some large print, but Braille would make me so much more > efficient. And yet no laws make it illegal for the education system to > deny me this knowledge. > > Many of our problems, though stemming from societal attitudes, exist > because we have no legal basis in which to demand rights, and be treated > equally, with issues taken for granted by many. This, my friend, is > completely a legal thing, and our government fails us each time we are > denied a right, discriminated against and have to lobby for legislation > putting us on an equal footing. We could have laws supporting us so, > though people will always discriminate, there would be no legal basis > for people to get away with this behavior. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:57:34 -0500 > From: Chris Nusbaum > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness and other minorities > Message-ID: <4ec6d4f7.2673340a.5d11.7b12 at mx.google.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi Bridgit, > > I'm sorry I took that too literally, as it wasn't meant to be > taken that way. A lot of people get those two forms of > government mixed up, and I have to explain to them that we're not > a true democracy. If we were, all decisions would be made by the > people. Well who knows, maybe that would be better. LOL Anyway, > I don't think the discrimination that we are currently faced with > in this country is not because of the laws and system of > government because we now have a lot of anti-discrimination laws > in place; the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Rehabilitation Act of > 1973, The Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act (IDEA,) > and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA.) So, what laws that > haven't been repealed are supporting discrimination against us? > We almost had one in the subminimum wage bill, but thank God that > was voted down. Now we just need cosponsors for the replacement > bill, the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. Has > anyone on this list contacted their Congresspeople? If so, what > were your experiences? > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 23 01:48:12 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 20:48:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: 56d7f4fb-c166-4a1c-9216-1596de0858ce@samobile.net Bridgit, I would submit that it really doesn't matter whether or not a person has mannerisms. The fact is that we're still discriminated against, still treated as non-beings by sighted people, have our lives pried into by sighted people, have people compliment us for being "normal," and experience several other demeaning things that we've all talked about here. Sure, a kid who doesn't rock may have more friends, but those friends often think we're superhuman or somehow amazing because we're so-called "normal." Therefore, I conclude that the only thing we really get out of worrying so much about body language and the like is added stress from our own self-judgment and the judgment of others in the blindness field. It seems to me that we need a different attitude toward these so-called blindisms. I personally think they could be used as a source of information. They might signal a need for movement. Maybe they signal boredom or excitement. whatever it is, they might serve us by alerting us to mind states we are not really aware of. I think this is also the case for unconscious self-adapters used by the sighted like twittling the thumbs or shaking the leg. I've heard some people suggest that people press their eyes because it provides pain relief or because it produces inner images that are pretty to look at like stars and such. I see nothing wrong with that. But if the person in question doesn't wish to do this in public for whatever reason, they can always have their cake and eat it too by simply doing the behavior in private. And about this body language thing we've been hashing out. I'm personally horrified and saddened by the idea that we should strive to immulate the sighted. There is something to be said for adopting culturally appropriate behaviors for the context you are in, but the added stress of trying to please others with these behaviors may not be worth it. I'd much rather learn about a new behavior and keep it on the back burner for when I think I might need it, but focus on communicating in the best way i know how. Our multicultural world has the benefit of greater acceptance than it used to. For instance, I've never heard a Japanese person say nasty things about an American who didn't bow upon leaving a shop. While some may think "That American's rude," others might realize that Americans don't usually bow as a matter of course. In application to a blind person, one might notice that we may prefer to turn an ear to them rather than our eyes from time to time, but they may also have the sense to realize that turning an ear may be one of the many effective methods we have adapted for our use in communication. Yes, we should know how to turn our eyes to them, but we shouldn't stress out over it and proclaim social gloom and doom for those who don't regularly adopt the behavior. Am I making any sense here? The bottom line for me is this. I think that all people could learn to communicate better with each other and that blind people certainly have no monopoly on lack of social skills. I don't think it's worth the stress to try to fit in the with the sighted. I'd rather just communicate in the best way that seems right for the moment; this strategy usually works out for me. And i suspect it works out for most of us given that the more important forms of body language seem to come naturally to us regardless of however we picked them up. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Carly, > But will that kid get a job? Date? Be accepted by other peers? I'm not > trying to generalize and say it can never happen because I know people > with blindisms, and they are active and social, but I know many more who > aren't. Whether it's right or wrong, this is how the world works, and > suggesting we create a utopia doesn't help things because outside of > philosophical discussions, the world isn't going to change much. This > isn't a defeatist attitude, but a realistic one. Just look at what is > happening in the world, then tell me a kid can be treated as equal who > rocks, pokes their eyes and any other blindism. We can't change being > blind; we can't change what our eyes look like, or how they function, > but blindisms aren't socially acceptable, and learning to not do these > behaviors isn't stifling one's inner nature, but it's teaching them > behaviors that will help them integrate into society. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:03:30 -0800 > From: Carly Mihalakis > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > , "National Association of Blind Students > mailing > list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111119125543.01e0a1a0 at earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed > Good afternoon, Ashley I think, > What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes > upon which are plastered identifiers like > "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People > ought to feel they can just do what feels right, > and comfortable and not be pressured to shead > some mannerisms, while retaining others. Doncha > think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in > this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he > doesn't happen to have so-called cog native > impairment, let the kid rock around the whole, > clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a >> culture learn body language and facial >> expressions from observing others; our culture >> emphasises personal space, shaking hands to >> greet, and eye contact just as some examples. >> Blind and low vision people won???t see it, but >> if someone works with us, its still a learned >> behavior; we just learn in a different way. I >> think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking >> hands are natural since I learned early on as >> did sighted peers. Once practiced, it became >> more automatic. I also like your comment that we >> should try to extinguish behaviors associated >> with mental and cognitive behaviors. Rocking is >> one of them. Yet, I think it would be unnatural >> to learn something now; I could do it, but it >> would probably be stiffer and not as natural >> like if I learned gestures. What I do though in >> a presentation is look around the room from left >> to right; speakers to do this to get attention >> and establish themselves before talking to a >> group; I do it even though I cannot see a lot, >> especially toward the back of the room. I can >> also say yes or no with my head because I was >> taught early on. But other nonverbals such as >> winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with >> the hand were not taught and I think I'd be a >> little stiffer and unnatural doing them. Still >> it would be good to try and learn. Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 23 01:55:54 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 20:55:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Standing in line Message-ID: f9f061ca-a471-482b-be7b-274c80fcca8f@samobile.net Vejas, The first thing to do is to consider the environment you're in. Take the cafeteria for example. Past experience tells you more or less where different stands may be located. So head in that general direction and listen for people talking, cashiers taking money, people taking orders, etc. When you get to the general area, find the first person you can and ask where the such-and-such line is. Next, get to the line and ask if the person you first make contact with is at the end of the line. You can also simply ask where the end of the line is located. once you get there, keep your cane in the pencil grip (holding it like a large pencil near the bottom of the handle or the top of the shaft) and keep the cane tip firmly pressed against the shoe of the person in front of you. They won't feel it. When the person moves, sweep the cane (using the pencil grip) in a semi-circle in front of you; keep the swing narrow as they can't have gone far. Keep stepping forward until you make contact when the shoe again and press the tip firmly against it. When I say "firm," I don't mean firm enough to bend the cane, but just firm enough to put a touch of pressure there. You will know you're at the front of the cue when you make contact with a counter or hear sounds suggesting you're nearing the spot where orders are taken and the like. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi, > I had a question about inganding in line properly. I am a > freshman and when I buy my own lunch, I have to figure out when > to move up front in the line. > Do any of you have any suggesttions for standing in line and > knowing when to move, as well as knowing when it's my turn? > Thanks. > Vejas > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 23 02:12:33 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:12:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: 16fc5414-d8f5-4814-a8f5-24b67d625da8@samobile.net Bridgit, The difference in teaching the sighted to be appropriate versus the blind is that sighted kids are simply reminded not to do certain things or to do others. With the blind, it's not that simple. There are journal articles written about why we do what we do; these articles often proclaim that we have no or underdeveloped social skills and that the sighted must intervene lest we have no friends later on. You've even seen some of that here perpetuated by our own self-criticisms. When sighted kids are taught to be appropriate, they are told to be appropriate. When blind kids are taught to be appropriate, they are often told not to look like a blind person. it's no accident that our mannerisms are referred to as blindisms. Have you ever heard sighted mannerisms called sightedisms? And what about this notion of looking like a person with a cognitive disability? I've heard comments here like "we shouldn't look retarded because we're not." I am angry with this line of thought because it puts down people with disabilities in general as someone else here has pointed out some time ago. I've never heard comments like this when teaching sighted children to behave a certain way. Marc's right. This isn't just about teaching and learning appropriate behavior. This is about the age-old question every minority faces: assimilation or accommodation? Should we act like the majority or should we find a balance between our cultures and learn to adapt to each other? I prefer the latter myself. i believe in being congruent: I want to be who and what I am; this sometimes includes changing my behavior in some context because I want acceptance from others. In this process, I'm developing an inner meter that tells me when I need to do which, and that meter isn't calibrated to other people's meters because I find such a practice useless and utterly stressful. I'm learning to trust myself to come up with the best behavior for the situation because I am starting to believe I have the knowledge I need or have the resources to receive the knowledge I need in the current moment. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Marc, > While I agree with you on a philosophical and theoretical level, I think > we need to step outside and consider the world as a living, breathing > thing. Social "norms" have been established for centuries, and society > doesn't seem ready to change anytime. This is not to say we give up, lay > down and die, but we're not speaking about the capabilities of the > blind, or our intellectual capacity; we're talking about physical > movements. > And you keep saying that to correct certain blindisms is forcing them to > assimilate into the sighted world, but it shouldn't be a blind or > sighted issue. It's common for blind kids to exhibit what we refer to as > blindisms, but sighted kids do exhibit these behaviors, and they are > corrected as well. It can't exactly be a forced assimilation, stifling > true natures, of the blind when sighted people do certain things too. > Sighted kids are corrected for this physical behavior, and blind kids > should be as well. > When sighted kids are corrected for rocking or gesticulating > inappropriately or making strange faces, is this forcing them into > something, are we stifling their true nature? You make this black and > white, like it's specific to the blind, and correcting blindisms sends > the message that we're not worthy of equalness, but what does this mean > for sighted kids? What are they being forced into? How does this hold > the blind back when sighted people do it too? Why make it a sighted vs. > blind issue? > Based on your utopian ideals, how do we currently fit into society when > we exhibit physical movements that are not socially acceptable? Do they > benefit us? Do they move us forward? We're not talking about personality > changes but being aware on our body and how we move it. Insisting to put > everything into a category, placing blind against sighted, just > perpetuates the idea that we're different; we're not the same, which > usually leads to inequality. > We can look to the future and attempt change, but we need to be > realistic and live in the real world. Changing our physicality has no > bearing on us as a person; we retain our personality, but we can learn > how to move our body in a socially acceptable way. And we can't pit > blind people against sighted people, claiming that changing how we move > our body forces us into a sighted world when some sighted people exhibit > a lot of similar behavior. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 12:05:44 -0700 > From: Marc Workman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > Message-ID: <71DFF2E6-9A35-443D-A9D2-5F98C387E972 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Hello Greg, > I appreciate your response as well. This is a subject i find > interesting. My style is to quote and then respond. I find it helpful > for ensuring that I'm responding to what a person actually said, and it > helps the reader know to which specific point I'm responding, but I > think it bothers some people, perhaps it comes across as > confrontational. That's not my intention, so I hope it's not > interpreted that way. > Greg wrote, > If a blind person does not use non verbal communication, even this is > still interpreted as communicating something, perhaps disinterest or > apathy. > This interpretation would be a mistake, and it's the sort of mistake > that should be corrected through education. > Greg wrote, > In general though, I have very little control over how people interpret > my forms of communication. I can't control how they think or respond to > me. > On the face of it, this seems right, particularly when the word > "control" is used, but has not the NFB been working to change attitudes > about blindness for some seventy years? Have not the ways people think > about and respond to blind people changed over this time? It's certainly > daunting, but I think we have more power than is implied by the quote > above. > Greg wrote, > I think investing time in learning non verbal forms of communication can > be very beneficial for blind people in acquiring employment and > developing social relationships with others who are not blind.. > I think I would take less issue if the choice were: 1, have a perfectly > successful and rich life without having to be taught to look and act > like sighted people do, or 2, make an effort to learn these skills and a > few more opportunities will be open to you, in the same way learning a > second or third language opens up some opportunities. Of course, that > is not the choice. What I see being said is: if you want to get a job > or have friends, you better learn to look and act the way sighted people > do. We're not talking about learning skills to increase opportunities; > we're talking about severely diminished opportunities for those who fail > to conform. > Greg wrote, > As you observed, we did not choose to "work in China," but I'm not sure > why that invalidates the analogy. No matter how we found ourselves in > this situation, that doesn't change the tools necessary for > communicating to a given group of people. > I think the analogy is invalidated because choosing to acquire new > skills is not morally equivalent to being forced to abandon certain > irrelevant habits/behaviours in favour of adopting other > habits/behaviours. A choice between two jobs, one involving work in > China and the other not involving work in China, is a reasonable choice. > A choice between abandoning certain irrelevant habits/behaviours in > order to find a job or maintaining these habits/behaviours and living on > social assistance is not a reasonable choice, so we're talking about two > different situations. I also do not agree that these "tools" are > "necessary" for communication. Necessity suggests that it could not be > otherwise, but it's exactly my point that we could and should educate > the public that relying on non-verbal communication to the point that > those who fail to learn it are significantly disadvantaged is not a > matter of necessity. > Greg wrote, > Its good to look at creating a more accepting society, but even then I > think the burden of effective communication is shared between > communicator and audience. It doesn't make sense to lay all the blame > on the audience, society at large, for misinterpreting my alternative > forms of communication that they have no background for understanding. > If it is understood as an alternative way of communicating, and if > society is failing to respect it as such, then I think it is appropriate > to point to this failure to respect an alternative way of communicating > as the problem. And I think the solution is to educate and hopefully > eventually get to a place where getting a job and making friends does > not depend on one's ability to look and act like sighted people. > Greg wrote, > My point is that adding non verbal communication skills to our > repertoire can greatly enhance our communication ability and so are > worth learning. > This goes back to my earlier point, if it really were like learning a > second or third language, which enhances opportunities, I probably > wouldn't have a problem, but it doesn't just enhance opportunities; it's > essentially a prerequisite for having any reasonable opportunities at > all. > Cheers, > Marc > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 23 02:20:09 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:20:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] staring Message-ID: f12e8d63-9e91-45c1-8999-388d52e53b0c@samobile.net Why not, if possible, just tell the person who's staring that their staring makes you feel uncomfortable? Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > I say make yourself look really good then they have a reason to stare, like > "Dam that person looks good." I know this isn't the real reason people > stare at us as blind people, but when I go to the club I don't use my cane > and people can't tell I am blind with out my cane, at least this is what I > have been told. I get a lot of stares then to, I never thought of my self > as pretty but I get looks in a positive way. Staring isn't always bad, it > can mean you look good. I have been stared at negativly to every day and > the energy is different, but maybe it helps to pretend it is positive > staring all of the time in stead of just some of the time. If not have fun > with it. I have a friend with CP so she has a different wwalk or sometimes > if we go a long distence she is in her wheele chair and she always makes > people feel stupid when their staring at us. She is more blunt than I am > but I admire it. She says things like "I am going to give you a description > of the room because you can't see it but some person is rubber necking > trying to find out how we can even be breathing on are own." I replaced her > language and description of the person which she always inserts with person > to avoid offending anyone who does not like swaring. Most of the time this > much roodness isn't necessary, but sometimes it is because some people just > need more blunt discoragement. > Andi > -----Original Message----- > From: Lea williams > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 8:10 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring > This is true, it does make it easier and you don't make yourself look > like a full popping off. People are going to stare at all kinds of > things, and one of them being that your blind and they might have not > seen someone who was blind and are just curious. I was with a friend > once and the daughter wasn't feeling well and was using a wheel chair > while we were picking up medication and a couple of other things for > her at wal mart, she was imbarrassed cause people were staring at her > for being in a wheel chair. If anything with her, they propley pittied > her, but with us, they might pitty us, or might just be curious as to > how it is we do things because they have never seen blind people doing > anything before. Not saying that blind people do nothing, but that > they haven't seen a blind person and do not know what to expect or > wonder if their ideas are true or not. > Not sure if I made any since. > On 11/21/11, Rania Ismail CMT wrote: >> I get staired at too but my mom and have fun with it! We feel you have to >> have fun with it because it makes it easyer to deal with! >> Rania, >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Joshua Lester >> Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:03 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring >> This is another reason why ignorance needs to be dealt with, in >> sighted communities. >> I was at a Taco Bell, 30 minutes away from my hometown. >> There were two boys laughing at me, because of my blindness. >> My brother got on to them, and they left me alone. >> It's a shame, that people that don't know any better make fun of us, >> when there's really nothing wrong with us. >> Blessings, Joshua >> On 11/21/11, vejas wrote: >>> I hate staring. >>> People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know >>> that they are doing it. >>> I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are >>> staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me >>> that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. >>> What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing >>> anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder >>> do these people even realize they are staring? >>> Vejas >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.p >> ccua.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co >> m >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- > Lea Williams > Phone; > 704-732-4470 > Skipe; > Lea.williams738 > Facebook > http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From latinanewschic at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 20:05:01 2011 From: latinanewschic at gmail.com (Martha Harris) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 14:05:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] driver for field experience Message-ID: <419003605E664AAB85BA623C7566538E@MarthaPC> Hi Everyone, As part of my education degree, I need to have field experience working with a student in the classroom. I am assigned to someone 70 miles away, so I have hired a driver. Since it is a required class, are hours for the driver something rehab can fund? Thanks, Martha From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 23 02:31:21 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:31:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] driver for field experience Message-ID: ce823f0a-c7a4-49b9-a911-381339633552@samobile.net Martha, Yes, rehab can fund your driver. The two of you can get a contract started where the driver submits the hours or mileage to you so you can send it to rehab and receive funding on a monthly basis. Just check with your counselor for more details. But you should know that the Institute will also fund your driver since it's technically under an Institute contract with the school district you're in. You may have to pay up front, but you can get reimbursed biweekly or monthly depending on what you and the Institute agree on. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi Everyone, > As part of my education degree, I need to have field experience working > with a student in the classroom. I am assigned to someone 70 miles > away, so I have hired a driver. Since it is a required class, are hours > for the driver something rehab can fund? > Thanks, > Martha > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From dandrews at visi.com Wed Nov 23 03:46:48 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:46:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: jobs Oklahoma Message-ID: > > >---------- >From: Michael Jones [mailto:mjones at okdrs.gov] >Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 7:49 AM >To: Dick Davis >Subject: jobs > >Hello Mr. Davis would you please post this on >any job list you may know of, we are recruiting >for a high level AT person, also for many more jobs in blindness rehab. > >I would be glad to talk with anyone interested. > >Thank you very much. > > > >12-061 is for an Assistive Technology >Coordinator at the Division of Visual Services, >VS #90 in Oklahoma City. This is an unclassified >“at will,” appointment. The beginning date was, >Friday, November 4, 2011 and it is open Until >Filled. Look for the OKCareers Recruitment # 111104-UNCB-77 > >For a complete listing of field office locations >for the DRS please visit our website at www.okdrs.gov. > >Please direct anyone who has never worked for >the State of Oklahoma to apply through the >OKCareers online application system, >http://jobaps.com/ok/sup/images/default.asp. >OKCareers is located by visiting the Oklahoma >Office of Personnel Management website at >www.opm.ok.gov / and >click on the OKCareers icon (green/yellow/blue >circle) on the right side of the page. OKCareers >requires the applicant to have an email address. > >________________________________ > >The contents of this electronic message, >including attachments, are transmitted by the >Oklahoma Department of Rehabilitation Services, >an Oklahoma government entity. This message is >intended for use by the named addressee only and >may contain information that is confidential or >private according to state or federal laws. The >views and opinions expressed herein are the >sender's and may not reflect the official >position of OKDRS. If you have received this >electronic message in error, please notify the >sender by a "reply to sender only" message, >delete it completely from your computer and >maintain confidentiality of the message. Any >unauthorized disclosure, distribution, or use of >the contents of this message is prohibited and >subjects the user to penalty of law. > ­­ From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 23 05:25:41 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 00:25:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones In-Reply-To: <02e001cca979$562a6e20$027f4a60$@comcast.net> References: <1E9553BC451A4B9BA8411F634F172E59@OwnerPC> <02e001cca979$562a6e20$027f4a60$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0317A027F47D4196AFC817D641614CE2@OwnerPC> does the haven speak sub menues? Does it read you the text messages? Also, does it speak the numbers as you dial? I went to a verizon store, but they did not have the haven; said it was available online. My dad and I are going to another larger store in hopes they will have it and other talking phones. I do not want to buy online because I cannot try it out hands on! I want to feel the buttons to ensure I can dial okay since some phones have such small buttons, hear the speech, and observe its features. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Amy Sabo Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 7:46 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] verizon phones Hello Ashley, As to your response on which phone to purchase from Verizon which is also accessible for your needs and, it doesn't have internet access is the one that I have purchased from Verizon. It's called the Samsung haven. And, I really like it! All of the features are voice activated but, I also have a xd card in it which has mobile speak too! Anyway, I hope this information is helpful to you. Take care and, good luck in finding your accessible phone from Verizon. Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Hi all, Phone models seem to go in and out quickly. I’m planning to get a verizon phone; I would prefer that it talk the menus and read text messages. but I don’t care for one with the internet and do not want an I phone. I’d like one with a calendar, alarm, and voice recorder feature if possible. So any ideas? I know a few friends have the NV2 and NV3, but I don’t know if they still are produced. What accessible phones do you have and like? Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com Wed Nov 23 17:18:18 2011 From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 09:18:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Call for Applications: AAPD Washington, DC Summer Internship Program for Students with Disabilities! Message-ID: <1322068698.99574.YahooMailClassic@web162005.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>     ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: AAPD Internship Date: Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:26 AM Subject: Call for Applications: AAPD Washington, DC Summer Internship Program for Students with Disabilities! To: Dear Friends of AAPD:   Each summer, the American Association of People with Disabilities (AAPD) hosts a summer internship program in Washington, DC for students with all types of disabilities.   AAPD’s Summer Internship Program offers college students, law students, graduate students, and recent graduates with disabilities the opportunity to work in public service for ten weeks on Capitol Hill, at federal agencies, nonprofits and for-profit businesses. This ten week experience gives interns the opportunity to gain invaluable hands-on experience in the workforce. Interns receive a living stipend, expenses covered for travel to and from DC, and fully-accessible housing   Applications must be received by 5:00 PM (Eastern Standard Time) on or before January 6, 2012. Apply Now!  www.aapd.com/internship    Please pass this information along to any eligible candidates.  For additional information on the AAPD Summer Internship Program, please contact AAPD at 202-521-4306 or by email to internship at aapd.com.   Sincerely,     Sarah Amin Programs Intern American Association of People with Disabilities   -- Melanie Thornton | Associate Director University of Arkansas at Little Rock | Disability Resource Center 501.569.3217 | mpthornton at ualr.edu | ualr.edu/disability   We Want Your Comments! This message contains information which may be confidential or privileged.  The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. Please be aware that filing this email in publicly accessible records, or any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. From brlsurfer at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 17:49:12 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 09:49:12 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof Message-ID: <4ecd323e.e26c340a.2d30.ffffbe2c@mx.google.com> Hi All, I don't know if any of you other blind people have this, but I have a considerable fear of dogs. Someone suggested it was because we couldn't see them, so we don't know how aggressive they are. In first grade I got jumped by a dog, which scared me, but it's gotten worse because I have constantly had bad dreams where I am near a really aggressive dog such as a pit bull, and it's really scary. I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying this, but if certain breeds didn't exist, such as Doberman, Pitbull, Rotweiller and Chao, blind people could walk more confidently down the streets without having to worry about an attack. What are your thoughts about this issue? From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 23 18:32:57 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:32:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] thanksgiving Message-ID: Hi all, I hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving. I’m spending it with my family and we will enjoy turkey out. I am thankful for many things I have; my big home and double bed; good, loyal family and I can always count on my father to provide a ride since transit has much to be desired. Eat a lot and have fun! Ashley From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 23 18:51:13 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:51:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof Message-ID: 044e48da-283a-40b0-80d3-7c424043c930@samobile.net Vejas, Fears of dogs, especially for those who've been attacked, are pretty common and don't seem to have anything to do with blindness. I personally have never had much trouble assessing the aggressiveness of dogs. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi All, > I don't know if any of you other blind people have this, but I > have a considerable fear of dogs. Someone suggested it was > because we couldn't see them, so we don't know how aggressive > they are. > In first grade I got jumped by a dog, which scared me, but it's > gotten worse because I have constantly had bad dreams where I am > near a really aggressive dog such as a pit bull, and it's really > scary. > I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying this, but if certain > breeds didn't exist, such as Doberman, Pitbull, Rotweiller and > Chao, blind people could walk more confidently down the streets > without having to worry about an attack. > What are your thoughts about this issue? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From hope.paulos at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 19:14:55 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:14:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof References: <4ecd40dc.4735e70a.128a.ffffb12eSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3EC5E41C5DA84C5BBCFA22A8699D2248@Espy> I agree with Jedi. I have a guide dog, so obviously am not afraid of them. Your fear, in my opinion, has nothing to do with your blindness. Hope ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jedi" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof > Vejas, > > Fears of dogs, especially for those who've been attacked, are pretty > common and don't seem to have anything to do with blindness. I personally > have never had much trouble assessing the aggressiveness of dogs. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Hi All, >> I don't know if any of you other blind people have this, but I >> have a considerable fear of dogs. Someone suggested it was >> because we couldn't see them, so we don't know how aggressive >> they are. >> In first grade I got jumped by a dog, which scared me, but it's >> gotten worse because I have constantly had bad dreams where I am >> near a really aggressive dog such as a pit bull, and it's really >> scary. >> I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying this, but if certain >> breeds didn't exist, such as Doberman, Pitbull, Rotweiller and >> Chao, blind people could walk more confidently down the streets >> without having to worry about an attack. >> What are your thoughts about this issue? > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Wed Nov 23 19:22:35 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:22:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof In-Reply-To: <4ecd323e.e26c340a.2d30.ffffbe2c@mx.google.com> References: <4ecd323e.e26c340a.2d30.ffffbe2c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4ECD47FB.3080602@visi.com> Your fear of dogs is understandable -- but I don't think it is primarily a blindness-related issue. Lots of people blind and sighted alike are afraid of dogs. Dave On 11/23/2011 11:49 AM, vejas wrote: > Hi All, > I don't know if any of you other blind people have this, but I have a > considerable fear of dogs. Someone suggested it was because we > couldn't see them, so we don't know how aggressive they are. > In first grade I got jumped by a dog, which scared me, but it's gotten > worse because I have constantly had bad dreams where I am near a > really aggressive dog such as a pit bull, and it's really scary. > I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying this, but if certain breeds > didn't exist, such as Doberman, Pitbull, Rotweiller and Chao, blind > people could walk more confidently down the streets without having to > worry about an attack. > What are your thoughts about this issue? From TAnnis at afb.net Wed Nov 23 19:28:02 2011 From: TAnnis at afb.net (Tara Annis) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:28:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] How we appear towards sighted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8FF687EB29A6AD4B8D020BAC05C85CC263A920A8CC@KOCL385270EXCH.msp.tech.int.digex.com> I do wish more people would think logically and stop basing their sole judgment of a person's abilities based on how they look. Yes, the world is cruel, and I hate this reality. I do believe that more etiquette training needs to be done. There are people who really think that one can discern intelligence solely based on looks, blind are not the only to suffer from this stereotype, think about little people or people in wheelchairs. I don't care if a blind person chooses to rock and have other blindisms or has body language comparable to the sighted, but I feel that a blind person should have full knowledge of how the public views them, as well as all other aspects of the world, if they wish to receive this info. I'm not saying all blind have to learn this, it's a free country, people can choose what they wish to know and learn about. For those who are interested, though, make sure they have the same information about their environment that the sighted have access to, some of which we can figure out without sighted assistance, but some of it is impossible to discern without help. I would like to have more input from a sighted person about what goes on in crowded public places, like the mall or subway, where a lot of nonverbal communication goes on. For example, I want to know about every passenger on the bus, what facial expression does each one have? are they reading magazines or staring into space? How many times does each person make eye contact with others? how are they dressed? This information would help us know how well we fit into the world. I think having this info would help boost blind people's self-esteem and social skills. Maybe an O&M instructor could incorporate this into lessons. One way we can learn more about sighted versus blind perceptions is to ask people who were once sighted and became blind later in life. Or vice versa, find blind at birth and now sighted, such as Mike May. Read his book, Crashing Through, where he describes how his perception changed once he regained his sight. Another book, Emma and I, I can't remember the author's full name, I think Shelia something, talks about her being blind from cataracts until she was in her twenties. She had an operation that did restore her vision to almost perfect, and she was shocked at her new world. She describes in vivid detail about how much body language she lacked as a blind person and how much nonverbal input she missed from sighted people. She has written several books in this Emma series that discuss her life. All these books are on bookshare. While it is considered taboo to tell people about negative aspects of their appearance, some disabled want to know, and actually consider it more rude to not divulge info that could make social interaction easier. For example, I've had deaf friends ask me if their voice sounded different than sighted, and they wanted the whole truth, even if it was negative. So I told them. They were grateful, since they had all the info to decide whether to use their voice in social situations or instead write notes or use sign language. I have heard of some blind starting to wear sunglasses after they found out the number of people who stared at their eyes, or made negative comments about them, and I've had the opposite blind find this out but decide not to wear the glasses and ignore people's comments. The bottom line: it's all subjective, whatever makes the individual feel good. Yet, I still stick with the argument that to make this decision, whether to change or not to change, should be made after all possible info is told to them. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 23 19:49:03 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:49:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] access board guidelines Message-ID: Hi all, I’m surprised NFB hasn’t called members out to make Access board comments. I heard that they’re proposing audible signals whereever pedestrian signals are installed. I think they are needed at some large intersections, but not every pedestrian button intersection. We can find the button, push it, and go with traffic sounds, usually. Anyone interested, the proposed guidelines are at www.access-board.gov I think. Ashley From jordyn2493 at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 19:58:47 2011 From: jordyn2493 at gmail.com (Jordyn Castor) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:58:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Standing in line In-Reply-To: <4ecc5302.042d2b0a.0f0a.2158SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4ecc5302.042d2b0a.0f0a.2158SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4ECD5077.80700@gmail.com> Hey list, I just wanted to add my perspective to this. I don't usually do the cane on the shoe thing as it's just not my thing. lol :) When I'm standing in line, I use echo location and can usually hear the person standing in front of me, even if I'm not that close to them. By hear, I mean hear the echoes, not like their voices or the sounds of their shoes lol. If the people are talking, I ffollow their voices as that works too. Sometimes, depending on what kind of line I'm in, I start a conversation with the people in front of me. Just throwing some more options out there. I'm curious though, do most of you use the cane on the shoe method? Jordyn On 11/22/2011 8:55 PM, Jedi wrote: > Vejas, > > The first thing to do is to consider the environment you're in. Take > the cafeteria for example. Past experience tells you more or less > where different stands may be located. So head in that general > direction and listen for people talking, cashiers taking money, people > taking orders, etc. When you get to the general area, find the first > person you can and ask where the such-and-such line is. Next, get to > the line and ask if the person you first make contact with is at the > end of the line. You can also simply ask where the end of the line is > located. once you get there, keep your cane in the pencil grip > (holding it like a large pencil near the bottom of the handle or the > top of the shaft) and keep the cane tip firmly pressed against the > shoe of the person in front of you. They won't feel it. When the > person moves, sweep the cane (using the pencil grip) in a semi-circle > in front of you; keep the swing narrow as they can't have gone far. > Keep stepping forward until you make contact when the shoe again and > press the tip firmly against it. When I say "firm," I don't mean firm > enough to bend the cane, but just firm enough to put a touch of > pressure there. You will know you're at the front of the cue when you > make contact with a counter or hear sounds suggesting you're nearing > the spot where orders are taken and the like. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Hi, >> I had a question about inganding in line properly. I am a >> freshman and when I buy my own lunch, I have to figure out when >> to move up front in the line. >> Do any of you have any suggesttions for standing in line and >> knowing when to move, as well as knowing when it's my turn? >> Thanks. >> Vejas > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 20:11:22 2011 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:11:22 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] thanksgiving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have a great thanksgiving as well. Have a wonderful holiday and thanks for sharing. By the way, I'm thankful for braille, I'm thankful for technology and access technology for the blind, I'm thankful for this mailing list and also very thankful for the National Federation of the Blind! Without the NFB, we are not what we are today. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:33 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] thanksgiving Hi all, I hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving. I'm spending it with my family and we will enjoy turkey out. I am thankful for many things I have; my big home and double bed; good, loyal family and I can always count on my father to provide a ride since transit has much to be desired. Eat a lot and have fun! Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 20:13:57 2011 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:13:57 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof In-Reply-To: <4ECD47FB.3080602@visi.com> References: <4ecd323e.e26c340a.2d30.ffffbe2c@mx.google.com> <4ECD47FB.3080602@visi.com> Message-ID: <1A963C4D33FF496782A851B8245D0AF7@HUMBERTOAVILA> I am also afraid of dogs myself. When I was 4 years old, I was bitten by one. It was not huge large dog but now I am afraid of them and don't like them. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 11:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof Your fear of dogs is understandable -- but I don't think it is primarily a blindness-related issue. Lots of people blind and sighted alike are afraid of dogs. Dave On 11/23/2011 11:49 AM, vejas wrote: > Hi All, > I don't know if any of you other blind people have this, but I have a > considerable fear of dogs. Someone suggested it was because we > couldn't see them, so we don't know how aggressive they are. > In first grade I got jumped by a dog, which scared me, but it's gotten > worse because I have constantly had bad dreams where I am near a > really aggressive dog such as a pit bull, and it's really scary. > I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying this, but if certain breeds > didn't exist, such as Doberman, Pitbull, Rotweiller and Chao, blind > people could walk more confidently down the streets without having to > worry about an attack. > What are your thoughts about this issue? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From brlsurfer at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 20:13:25 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:13:25 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] thanksgiving Message-ID: <4ecd540b.8763340a.402a.ffffde2b@mx.google.com> I'm thankful for reading, I'm thankful for the Internet, I'm thankful for my family and I'm thankful that my birthday is Thanksgiving-tomorrow. I'll be fifteen! Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Humberto Avila" OK, thanks, Amy! I think I'll get Gold Wave anyway, as I have heard it's better and newer than Cool Edit. Now, I just need to buy an external microphone, and then I won't have to record my podcasts on my Victor Stream, and then do a double-conversion (from that weird 3PG format the Stream uses, to WAV format using Stream Companion, I wish it would convert to MP3, and then use online-converter.com or some other means to convert to MP3) before I can finally send the podcast to be published. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" Hi Amy, Yes, that's why I plan to get Gold Wave. By the way, what recordings do you do? Do you record segments for David's station or other ones? Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" References: <4ecd6419.e76e340a.42f2.ffffebea@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000101ccaa2c$267d71a0$737854e0$@comcast.net> Hello chris, The only voice/audio recordings that I have ever done is for doing powerpoint presentations for various artists like my favorite amy grant. I'm in the process of working on one for my sister for her music appreciation class as well too! As to your question no, I don't do that audio work for david's station... I wish that I did... well, that's all for now take care and have a happy thanksgiving! Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 2:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Hi Amy, Yes, that's why I plan to get Gold Wave. By the way, what recordings do you do? Do you record segments for David's station or other ones? Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" References: <4ecd6417.e76e340a.42f2.ffffebe4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000001ccaa2c$262a2180$727e6480$@comcast.net> Dear chris, To get a free copy of goldwave which is what I have you can just download it from their web site at www.goldwave.com and, you will have it! But, if you want a professional version or something more powerful than that then you will have to purchase it for a fee. All of that information is on the web site! Have fun! amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 2:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio OK, thanks, Amy! I think I'll get Gold Wave anyway, as I have heard it's better and newer than Cool Edit. Now, I just need to buy an external microphone, and then I won't have to record my podcasts on my Victor Stream, and then do a double-conversion (from that weird 3PG format the Stream uses, to WAV format using Stream Companion, I wish it would convert to MP3, and then use online-converter.com or some other means to convert to MP3) before I can finally send the podcast to be published. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" References: Message-ID: I should have mentioned that. I am thankful for the braille resources available to us; we have more than we used to have! -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 3:11 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] thanksgiving Have a great thanksgiving as well. Have a wonderful holiday and thanks for sharing. By the way, I'm thankful for braille, I'm thankful for technology and access technology for the blind, I'm thankful for this mailing list and also very thankful for the National Federation of the Blind! Without the NFB, we are not what we are today. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:33 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] thanksgiving Hi all, I hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving. I'm spending it with my family and we will enjoy turkey out. I am thankful for many things I have; my big home and double bed; good, loyal family and I can always count on my father to provide a ride since transit has much to be desired. Eat a lot and have fun! Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 23:37:49 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 18:37:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes Message-ID: <4ecd83fd.a26e340a.45b4.06c7@mx.google.com> I have a prosthetic eye in my right eye (the eyeball of which was removed surgically because of pain I was having in it) and I have a shell over the eyeball in my left eye. I don't wear sunglasses either, as the color on the prosthetics does the trick of making my eyes look normal. When they're out, according to my sighted parents, my eyes look opaque and the right eye looks like it has a hole in it where the eyeball used to be. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: Jewel wrote: I believe if it is something you can not control you shouldn't have to hide it and I actually think when blind people where sun glasses inside it just looks more stereotypical and reenforces the old stigmas. I only know one blind person who can pull off sun glasses all the time and he actually has beautiful eyes but he kind of has this rock star look when he wheres them so it doesn't look funny. Some people can get away with it and actually make it look good, but most can not. However on the same token I where makeup to cover serdury scars under my eyes, and strangers are more willing to talk to me when I do as aposed to when I don't. So while society does need to be more excepting of people and we should strive twards that end it is not usually what you can expect from the world. The world is cruel and judgmental. As I said before you have to be true to you, but there is a degree in which you should care. On that same token it is hard to always know what society will and wont expect. Obviously behaviors and things you can help should be things you care about but eyes well that is a personal choice. Is it silly for me to cover up my scars so I am more approachable or am I being overly concerned. I suppose make up is considered normal by society so maybe it isn't so odd to where it for that reason. Eyes however can not be covered up unless you where coloured contacts or sun glasses. I personally think sun glasses are silly unless you are out doors and it is a sunny day or you have a sensativity. Coloured contacts might be an option if you are truly concerned about the appearance of your eyes and that is something sighted people do to if they do not like their eye colour but I would imagine it gets expensive. Usually peoples "weered" eyes are not usually as strange as they think,so it really is a personal choice like makeup. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 6:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes well, light is a factor, one reason to cover eyes. another one is appearance. If it detracts from your looks, you do what you need to do for acceptance. I think doing this on a job interview would help get you a job. -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 5:36 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes While I understand where you're coming from, I disagree about a blind person covering their eyes just to make sighted people feel more at ease. Many of us where sunglasses for various reasons. I where mine on days when light is causing extra sensitivity or when I opt to not wear make-up, smile. I have a friend who wears sunglasses to hide scar tissue and another to hide a glass eye. I think it's time the world learn to accept people as they are. If glass eyes, or eyes with scarring, or cloudiness, cause discomfort among sighted people, does this mean we need start concealing missing limbs, birth, or accident related, deformaties, scarring on burn victims? The list is endless. I understand your comments, and I understand why some choose to cover up any "abnormality" with their eyes, but I think this is unjustly unfair. We, to some degree, have sway over how we act and present ourselves to the public, but for many, they have no control over the function, or lack thereof, color or clarity of their eyes. We shouldn't teach blind kids to conceal something they can't control, but instead we should educate society to accept that disability is a part of life and to be comfortable with people who may have a physical deformity (for lack of a better word at the moment) scar, missing limb, cognitive impairment or any other "abnormal" issue. I think it all goes back to us, the disabled people, having to fit into a mold in order to make others feel more comfortable, or taking submissive roles so society doesn't feel awkward. We shouldn't have to take extra measures in terms of a physical aspect out of our control just so others feel better. We're human and have feelings. What about the world taking extra measures so we feel less uncomfortable around those who aren't disabled or have a physical condition considered abnormal? I agree that people who are blind can learn how to dress and interact in ways that are more socially acceptable, but hiding your eyes because they make others uncomfortable seems like the wrong message. Perhaps this is a bit of a leap, but we once were relegated to dark corners and institutionalized just so society didn't have to literally look at us, causing them discomfort and guilt. Is covering eyes, limbs, scars, fractures, etc. just a new way of relegating us into a different kind of dark corner? Hide as much of us as possible so we don't frighten the nondisabled population? God forbid people with disabilities get to feel human for once. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 3 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:55:01 -0500 From: Tara Annis I=20have=20the=20Sampsung=20Haven=20with=20Verizon,=20and=20it=20is=20total= ly=20 accessible,=20but=20it=20is=20not=20a=20smartphone.=20=20Looks=20like=20the= =20Haven=20has=20 what=20you=20want.=20=20A=20lot=20of=20blind=20people=20use=20it,=20and=20l= ike=20it=20very=20 much,=20if=20they=20don't=20want=20a=20smartphone. Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20 I'm=20totally=20blind.=20=20I=20probably=20do=20that=20stuff=20naturally,=20= but=20I=20 can't=20make=20myself=20look=20certain=20ways,=20as=20I=20don't=20know=20wh= at=20I=20look=20 like. Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20=20wrote: =20that=20type=20of=20attitude=20won't=20get=20you=20a=20job=20or=20friends= .=20=20Its=20not=20 about =20fitting =20into=20a=20box,=20its=20about=20learning=20appropriate=20communication=20= behaviors=20to=20get =20along=20in=20the=20world.=20=20If=20I=20decided=20to=20live=20in=20Franc= e=20and=20work=20 there,=20I'd =20learn =20French=20culture,=20ways=20of=20greeting=20one=20another,=20personal=20s= pace,=20 and=20other =20customs=20and=20would=20also=20learn=20what=20was=20deemed=20offensive=20= there.=20=20 So=20in=20our =20culture=20here,=20I'll=20want=20to=20learn=20the=20same=20things=20only= =20 differently=20since =20most =20people=20learn=20by=20observation. =20Ashley =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Carly=20Mihalakis =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20November=2019,=202011=204:03=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list=20= ;=20 National =20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Body=20language=20and=20facial=20expressions= =20Good=20afternoon,=20Ashley=20I=20think, =20What's=20with=20trying=20to=20cram=20everyone=20into=20boxes =20upon=20which=20are=20plastered=20identifiers=20like =20"blindness"=20and=20"cognitive=20impairments?"=20People =20ought=20to=20feel=20they=20can=20just=20do=20what=20feels=20right, =20and=20comfortable=20and=20not=20be=20pressured=20to=20shead =20some=20mannerisms,=20while=20retaining=20others.=20=20Doncha =20think?=20And,=20besides,=20there=20are=20folks=20starving,=20in =20this=20here=20world=20so=20if=20kid=20needs=20to=20rock,=20and=20he =20doesn't=20happen=20to=20have=20so-called=20cog=20native =20impairment,=20let=20the=20kid=20rock=20around=20the=20whole, =20clock!11/19/2011,=20Ashley=20Bramlett=20wrote: Bridgit,=20Very=20well=20said!=20Sighted=20people=20in=20a=20culture=20lear= n=20body=20 language and=20facial=20expressions=20from=20observing=20others;=20our=20culture=20 emphasises personal=20space,=20shaking=20hands=20to=20greet,=20and=20eye=20contact=20j= ust=20as=20 some examples.=20=20Blind=20and=20low=20vision=20people=20won=E2=80=99t=20see=20= it,=20but=20if=20 someone=20works with=20us,=20its=20still=20a=20learned=20behavior;=20we=20just=20learn=20in= =20a=20 different=20way.=20=20I think=20behaviors=20such=20as=20eye=20contact=20and=20shaking=20hands=20=20= are=20 natural=20since=20I learned=20early=20on=20as=20did=20sighted=20peers.=20=20Once=20practiced,=20= it=20became=20 more automatic.=20=20I=20also=20like=20your=20comment=20that=20we=20should=20try= =20to=20 extinguish behaviors=20associated=20with=20mental=20and=20cognitive=20behaviors.=20=20= Rocking=20is=20one of them.=20=20Yet,=20I=20think=20it=20would=20be=20unnatural=20to=20learn=20so= mething=20now;=20 I=20could do it,=20but=20it=20would=20probably=20be=20stiffer=20and=20not=20as=20natural= =20like=20if=20I=20 learned gestures.=20=20What=20I=20do=20though=20in=20a=20presentation=20is=20look=20= around=20the=20 room=20from left=20to=20right;=20speakers=20to=20do=20this=20to=20get=20attention=20and= =20establish themselves=20before=20talking=20to=20a=20group;=20I=20do=20it=20even=20thou= gh=20I=20 cannot=20see=20a lot,=20especially=20toward=20the=20back=20of=20the=20room.=20=20I=20can=20a= lso=20say=20yes=20 or=20no=20with my=20head=20because=20I=20was=20taught=20early=20on.=20=20But=20other=20non= verbals=20such=20 as winking,=20shrugging=20shoulders,=20and=20becconing=20with=20the=20hand=20w= ere=20 not=20taught and=20I=20think=20I'd=20be=20a=20little=20stiffer=20and=20unnatural=20doing= =20them.=20=20 Still=20it would=20be=20good=20to=20try=20and=20learn.=20=20Ashley=20-----Original=20 Message-----=20From: Bridgit=20Pollpeter=20Sent:=20Saturday,=20November=2019,=202011=202:30=20PM= =20To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org=20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20Body=20language=20and=20facial=20= expressions This=20is=20such=20a=20dodgy=20issue.=20=20It=20is=20a=20fine=20balance,=20= and=20while=20I=20 understand we shouldn't=20use=20and=20act=20in=20ways=20completely=20unnatural=20to=20us,= =20we=20also=20 should try=20to=20follow=20behavior=20that's=20not=20indicative=20of=20other=20 disabilities associated=20with=20mental=20and=20cognitive=20issues.=20=20Most=20body=20l= anguage=20 and=20facial expressions=20are=20learned=20behavior.=20=20Since=20most=20of=20the=20popu= lation=20 is=20sighted, we=20learn=20facial=20expressions=20and=20body=20language=20from=20observin= g=20 others. Babies and=20little=20children=20often=20mimic=20what=20they=20see=20others=20doin= g.=20=20As=20 we=20grow older,=20we=20tend=20to=20adopt=20body=20and=20facial=20expressions=20natur= al=20to=20us=20 as individuals,=20but=20often=20associated,=20whether=20conscious=20or=20 unconscious, through=20learned=20behavior.=20=20It=20stands=20to=20reason=20that=20if=20= a=20person=20 is=20trying to adopt=20behavior=20nonvisually,=20one=20would=20work=20with=20another=20per= son=20to=20 adopt, and=20understand,=20certain=20facial=20and=20body=20expressions.=20=20Just= =20 because=20we=20learn the=20behavior,=20A.=20=20K.=20=20A.=20=20facial=20expressions=20and=20body= =20language,=20 through=20a nonvisual=20medium,=20does=20not=20necessarily=20imply=20that=20the=20facia= l=20and=20 body expressions=20a=20blind=20person=20replaces=20with=20either=20more=20stoic= =20and=20 rigid expressions=20or=20movement,=20or=20rocking=20or=20inappropriate=20movement= s,=20 is inorganic,=20or=20unnatural,=20to=20that=20individual.=20=20If=20you=20lear= n,=20 though nonvisually,=20a=20different=20way=20to=20move=20and=20express=20yourself,= =20why=20 does=20it have to=20be=20unnatural=20and=20arbitrary?=20Like=20sighted=20people,=20we're=20= adopting behavior,=20just=20in=20a=20different=20way;=20it's=20learned=20behavior=20= though=20 learned=20in a=20nonvisual=20manner.=20=20And=20as=20I've=20stated=20earlier,=20I=20beli= eve=20asking=20 u=20to cover,=20hide,=20something=20like=20our=20eyes=20is=20equal=20to=20bleachin= g=20skin=20 or straightening=20hair=20or=20covering=20accents/dialects;=20I=20don't,=20 however,=20think that=20changing=20certain=20behaviors,=20such=20as=20rocking,=20can=20be=20= equated=20 to=20this. First,=20all=20people=20have=20physical=20movements=20often=20unique=20to=20= them=20as=20 an individual=20whether=20noticeable=20or=20not.=20=20It's=20often=20instincti= ve=20and unconscious.=20=20However,=20some=20movements=20are=20associated=20with=20m= ental,=20 cognitive or=20psychological=20disabilities/concerns.=20=20In=20particular,=20rocking= =20 is=20often associated=20with=20developmental=20disabilities=20or=20abuse=20victims.=20= =20 Certain facial expressions=20are=20also=20associated=20with=20developmental=20disabilities= =20 and=20other psychological=20issues.=20=20Obviously=20people=20who=20are=20blind,=20whil= e=20many=20 do=20have multiple=20disabilities,=20don't=20have=20developmental=20disabilities,=20b= ut=20 because some=20of=20the=20"blindisms"=20are=20also=20linked=20to=20such=20disabilit= ies,=20I=20 don't think it's=20a=20problem=20to=20expect=20people=20who=20are=20blind=20to=20correc= t=20such=20 behavior.=20=20I don't=20see=20this=20similar=20to=20changing,=20or=20concealing,=20body=20p= arts=20or=20 internal attributes=20associated=20with=20race=20or=20ethnicity,=20or=20in=20the=20c= ase=20of disabilities=20that=20can't=20be=20controlled=20such=20as=20the=20functioni= ng=20of=20 eyes=20or missing=20limbs.=20=20In=20a=20nutshell,=20which=20I=20have=20problems=20fi= tting=20 things=20into, smile,=20my=20point=20is=20that=20body=20language=20and=20many=20facial=20e= xpressions=20 are picked=20up=20through=20learned=20behavior.=20=20Whether=20we=20learn=20thi= s=20 behavior visually or=20nonvisually,=20it=20doesn't=20mean=20we're=20just=20going=20through=20= the=20 motions- acting=20as=20it=20were.=20=20It's=20the=20same=20process=20just=20done=20n= onvisually.=20=20 Just=20as=20we learn=20to=20read=20and=20write=20Braille=20or=20use=20adaptive=20technolog= y=20with=20 computers. We're=20doing=20the=20same=20things,=20just=20in=20a=20different=20way.=20= =20I=20also=20 don't=20think we can=20compare=20certain=20changes=20nade=20,=20physically=20or=20internally= ,=20 indicative=20of race=20or=20ethnicity,=20to=20correcting=20social=20behavior=20such=20as=20= body=20 language=20or facial=20expressions=20either=20linked=20to=20other=20disabilities=20or=20 inappropriate=20to a=20given=20situation.=20=20Sincerely,=20Bridgit=20Kuenning-Pollpeter=20Rea= d=20my=20 blog=20at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/=20"History=20is=20 not=20what happened;=20history=20is=20what=20was=20written=20down."=20The=20Expected=20= One-=20 Kathleen McGowan=20Message:=207=20Date:=20Fri,=2018=20Nov=202011=2013:26:31=20-0700= =20From:=20 Marc Workman =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20 Students mailing=20list=20=20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Blindnes= s=20 versus other=20minority=20groups=20Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com>=20Content-Type:=20 text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii=20Carly=20wrote,=20How=20can=20facial=20expressions=20an= d=20 other=20body language=20convey=20meaning=20if=20they=20are=20not=20naturally,=20ocuring?= =20For=20 this reason I=20don't=20see=20a=20reason=20to=20sort=20of=20put=20on=20nonverbal,=20exp= ression=20if,=20 behind=20it there=20is=20little,=20meaning?=20I=20want=20to=20take=20Carly's=20point=20= further=20 and=20suggest that=20pressuring=20blind=20people=20to=20look=20and=20act=20like=20others= =20is=20in=20 itself wrong.=20=20I'm=20not=20suggesting=20there=20is=20no=20value=20to=20it,=20n= or=20am=20I=20 saying=20it should=20never=20be=20done,=20but=20it=20makes=20me=20uncomfortable.=20=20T= he=20subject=20 of=20this thread=20is=20comparing=20blindness=20to=20other=20minorities.=20=20I=20thi= nk=20 there's=20a parallel=20between=20pressuring=20blind=20people=20to=20look=20and=20act=20= like=20 everyone else and=20things=20that=20some=20minorities=20used=20to=20do=20and=20still=20do= =20for=20 similar reasons.=20=20In=20the=20past,=20among=20African=20Americans,=20there=20exi= sted=20the=20 practice of=20skin=20bleaching=20and=20hair=20straightening=20for=20the=20purpose=20= of=20 appearing=20less black=20and/or=20more=20white.=20=20I=20can't=20give=20evidence=20to=20show= =20how=20 common=20this was,=20but=20Malcolm=20X=20talked=20about=20trying=20to=20remove=20the=20ki= nk=20from=20 his=20hair himself=20and=20finding=20it=20a=20physically=20and=20emotionally=20painful= =20 process. There are=20also=20surgeries=20performed=20to=20give=20people=20of=20East=20Asian= =20descent=20 more "white=20looking"=20eyes=20and=20Jews=20more=20"white=20looking"=20noses.=20= =20These=20 are=20just a couple=20of=20examples.=20=20Pressuring=20minorities=20to=20adopt=20the=20d= ominant=20 group's style=20of=20dress,=20gate,=20diction,=20body=20language,=20etc=20also=20of= ten=20 happens.=20=20I hope=20we=20can=20agree=20that=20this=20is=20at=20the=20very=20least=20unfo= rtunate.=20=20 There=20may be psychological=20and=20other=20explanations=20for=20why=20this=20occurs,=20b= ut=20 feeling pressured=20to=20get=20a=20nose=20job=20or=20to=20bleach=20your=20skin=20so= =20that=20you=20 look=20more like=20one=20particular=20group=20in=20society=20is=20problematic=20to=20sa= y=20the=20 least.=20=20So what's=20the=20difference=20between=20these=20cases=20and=20pressuring=20a= =20blind=20 person=20to adopt=20the=20behavioural=20habits,=20facial=20expressions,=20body=20langua= ge=20 etc=20of some sighted=20people?=20You=20might=20say=20that=20we=20live=20in=20a=20sighted= =20world=20and=20 so=20we have=20to=20adapt.=20=20There=20is=20something=20to=20this,=20but=20I=20won= der=20if=20it=20 would=20be equally=20acceptable=20to=20say=20we=20live=20in=20a=20white-dominated=20wo= rld=20so=20 non-whites have=20to=20adapt.=20=20It=20may=20be=20the=20case=20that=20blind=20people= =20who=20don't=20 "look blind" are=20more=20successful=20and=20integrate=20better,=20and=20it=20also=20may= =20be=20that non-whites=20who=20look=20and=20act=20white=20are=20more=20successful=20and= =20 integrate better, but=20in=20neither=20case=20is=20it=20just=20that=20the=20minorities=20need= =20to=20assume=20 the dominant=20groups=20characteristics=20in=20order=20to=20be=20successful.=20= =20What=20 ultimately needs=20to=20happen=20is=20not=20that=20blind=20people=20begin=20to=20look= =20and=20act=20 like sighted people,=20but=20that=20we=20all=20become=20more=20accepting=20of=20differen= ces=20that=20 are arbitrary=20and=20irrelevant.=20=20Most,=20if=20not=20all,=20so=20called=20= blindisms=20 are irrelevant,=20and=20I=20see=20no=20more=20reason=20to=20stamp=20them=20out= =20than=20I=20do=20 for trying to=20eliminate=20various=20differences=20in=20behaviour=20and=20appearance= =20 possessed=20by other=20minority=20groups.=20=20Cheers, _______________________________________________=20nabs-l=20mailing=20 list nabs-l at nfbnet.org=20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org=20To unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20account=20= info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________=20nabs-l=20mailing=20 list nabs-l at nfbnet.org=20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org=20To unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20account=20= info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40ea rthlink.net I'm=20in=20my=20school=20play,=20and=20I've=20found=20that=20I=20don't=20ha= ve=20a=20lot=20of=20 facial=20expression=20and=20need=20help=20learning=20the=20facial=20express= ions=20 for=20the=20play.=20=20So,=20the=20directors=20asked=20my=20parents=20to=20= help=20me=20at=20 home.=20=20But=20when=20my=20mom=20or=20dad=20would=20say=20"Just=20do=20it= =20naturally,"=20 I'd=20have=20to=20ask,=20"What's=20naturally?=20It=20isn't=20natural!"=20Th= ey=20tell=20 me=20I=20do=20these=20facial=20expressions,=20but=20I=20can't=20make=20myse= lf=20do=20it,=20 because=20I=20don't=20know=20what=20I'm=20doing=20when=20I=20do=20them,=20i= f=20I=20do=20them.=20=20 Does=20this=20make=20sense? Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Patrick=20Molloy=20=20wrote: =20that=20type=20of=20attitude=20won't=20get=20you=20a=20job=20or=20friends= .=20=20Its=20not=20 about=20fitting =20into=20a=20box,=20its=20about=20learning=20appropriate=20communication=20= behaviors=20to=20get =20along=20in=20the=20world.=20=20If=20I=20decided=20to=20live=20in=20Franc= e=20and=20work=20 there,=20I'd=20learn =20French=20culture,=20ways=20of=20greeting=20one=20another,=20personal=20s= pace,=20 and=20other =20customs=20and=20would=20also=20learn=20what=20was=20deemed=20offensive=20= there.=20=20 So=20in=20our =20culture=20here,=20I'll=20want=20to=20learn=20the=20same=20things=20only= =20 differently=20since=20most =20people=20learn=20by=20observation. =20Ashley =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Carly=20Mihalakis =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20November=2019,=202011=204:03=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list=20= ;=20 National =20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Body=20language=20and=20facial=20expressions= =20Good=20afternoon,=20Ashley=20I=20think, =20What's=20with=20trying=20to=20cram=20everyone=20into=20boxes =20upon=20which=20are=20plastered=20identifiers=20like =20"blindness"=20and=20"cognitive=20impairments?"=20People =20ought=20to=20feel=20they=20can=20just=20do=20what=20feels=20right, =20and=20comfortable=20and=20not=20be=20pressured=20to=20shead =20some=20mannerisms,=20while=20retaining=20others.=20=20Doncha =20think?=20And,=20besides,=20there=20are=20folks=20starving,=20in =20this=20here=20world=20so=20if=20kid=20needs=20to=20rock,=20and=20he =20doesn't=20happen=20to=20have=20so-called=20cog=20native =20impairment,=20let=20the=20kid=20rock=20around=20the=20whole, =20clock!11/19/2011,=20Ashley=20Bramlett=20wrote: Bridgit,=20Very=20well=20said!=20Sighted=20people=20in=20a=20culture=20lear= n=20body=20 language and=20facial=20expressions=20from=20observing=20others;=20our=20culture=20 emphasises personal=20space,=20shaking=20hands=20to=20greet,=20and=20eye=20contact=20j= ust=20as=20 some examples.=20=20Blind=20and=20low=20vision=20people=20won=E2=80=99t=20see=20= it,=20but=20if=20 someone=20works with=20us,=20its=20still=20a=20learned=20behavior;=20we=20just=20learn=20in= =20a=20 different=20way.=20=20I think=20behaviors=20such=20as=20eye=20contact=20and=20shaking=20hands=20=20= are=20 natural=20since=20I learned=20early=20on=20as=20did=20sighted=20peers.=20=20Once=20practiced,=20= it=20became=20 more automatic.=20=20I=20also=20like=20your=20comment=20that=20we=20should=20try= =20to=20 extinguish behaviors=20associated=20with=20mental=20and=20cognitive=20behaviors.=20=20= Rocking=20is=20one=20of them.=20=20Yet,=20I=20think=20it=20would=20be=20unnatural=20to=20learn=20so= mething=20now;=20 I=20could=20do it,=20but=20it=20would=20probably=20be=20stiffer=20and=20not=20as=20natural= =20like=20if=20I=20 learned gestures.=20=20What=20I=20do=20though=20in=20a=20presentation=20is=20look=20= around=20the=20 room=20from left=20to=20right;=20speakers=20to=20do=20this=20to=20get=20attention=20and= =20establish themselves=20before=20talking=20to=20a=20group;=20I=20do=20it=20even=20thou= gh=20I=20 cannot=20see=20a lot,=20especially=20toward=20the=20back=20of=20the=20room.=20=20I=20can=20a= lso=20say=20yes=20 or=20no=20with my=20head=20because=20I=20was=20taught=20early=20on.=20=20But=20other=20non= verbals=20such=20 as winking,=20shrugging=20shoulders,=20and=20becconing=20with=20the=20hand=20w= ere=20 not=20taught and=20I=20think=20I'd=20be=20a=20little=20stiffer=20and=20unnatural=20doing= =20them.=20=20 Still=20it would=20be=20good=20to=20try=20and=20learn.=20=20Ashley=20-----Original=20 Message-----=20From: Bridgit=20Pollpeter=20Sent:=20Saturday,=20November=2019,=202011=202:30=20PM= =20To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org=20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20Body=20language=20and=20facial=20= expressions This=20is=20such=20a=20dodgy=20issue.=20=20It=20is=20a=20fine=20balance,=20= and=20while=20I=20 understand=20we shouldn't=20use=20and=20act=20in=20ways=20completely=20unnatural=20to=20us,= =20we=20also=20 should try=20to=20follow=20behavior=20that's=20not=20indicative=20of=20other=20 disabilities associated=20with=20mental=20and=20cognitive=20issues.=20=20Most=20body=20l= anguage=20 and=20facial expressions=20are=20learned=20behavior.=20=20Since=20most=20of=20the=20popu= lation=20 is=20sighted, we=20learn=20facial=20expressions=20and=20body=20language=20from=20observin= g=20 others.=20=20Babies and=20little=20children=20often=20mimic=20what=20they=20see=20others=20doin= g.=20=20As=20 we=20grow older,=20we=20tend=20to=20adopt=20body=20and=20facial=20expressions=20natur= al=20to=20us=20 as individuals,=20but=20often=20associated,=20whether=20conscious=20or=20 unconscious, through=20learned=20behavior.=20=20It=20stands=20to=20reason=20that=20if=20= a=20person=20 is=20trying=20to adopt=20behavior=20nonvisually,=20one=20would=20work=20with=20another=20per= son=20to=20 adopt, and=20understand,=20certain=20facial=20and=20body=20expressions.=20=20Just= =20 because=20we=20learn the=20behavior,=20A.=20=20K.=20=20A.=20=20facial=20expressions=20and=20body= =20language,=20 through=20a nonvisual=20medium,=20does=20not=20necessarily=20imply=20that=20the=20facia= l=20and=20 body expressions=20a=20blind=20person=20replaces=20with=20either=20more=20stoic= =20and=20 rigid expressions=20or=20movement,=20or=20rocking=20or=20inappropriate=20movement= s,=20 is inorganic,=20or=20unnatural,=20to=20that=20individual.=20=20If=20you=20lear= n,=20 though nonvisually,=20a=20different=20way=20to=20move=20and=20express=20yourself,= =20why=20 does=20it=20have to=20be=20unnatural=20and=20arbitrary?=20Like=20sighted=20people,=20we're=20= adopting behavior,=20just=20in=20a=20different=20way;=20it's=20learned=20behavior=20= though=20 learned=20in a=20nonvisual=20manner.=20=20And=20as=20I've=20stated=20earlier,=20I=20beli= eve=20asking=20 u=20to cover,=20hide,=20something=20like=20our=20eyes=20is=20equal=20to=20bleachin= g=20skin=20 or straightening=20hair=20or=20covering=20accents/dialects;=20I=20don't,=20 however,=20think that=20changing=20certain=20behaviors,=20such=20as=20rocking,=20can=20be=20= equated=20 to=20this. First,=20all=20people=20have=20physical=20movements=20often=20unique=20to=20= them=20as=20 an individual=20whether=20noticeable=20or=20not.=20=20It's=20often=20instincti= ve=20and unconscious.=20=20However,=20some=20movements=20are=20associated=20with=20m= ental,=20 cognitive or=20psychological=20disabilities/concerns.=20=20In=20particular,=20rocking= =20 is=20often associated=20with=20developmental=20disabilities=20or=20abuse=20victims.=20= =20 Certain=20facial expressions=20are=20also=20associated=20with=20developmental=20disabilities= =20 and=20other psychological=20issues.=20=20Obviously=20people=20who=20are=20blind,=20whil= e=20many=20 do=20have multiple=20disabilities,=20don't=20have=20developmental=20disabilities,=20b= ut=20 because some=20of=20the=20"blindisms"=20are=20also=20linked=20to=20such=20disabilit= ies,=20I=20 don't=20think it's=20a=20problem=20to=20expect=20people=20who=20are=20blind=20to=20correc= t=20such=20 behavior.=20=20I don't=20see=20this=20similar=20to=20changing,=20or=20concealing,=20body=20p= arts=20or=20 internal attributes=20associated=20with=20race=20or=20ethnicity,=20or=20in=20the=20c= ase=20of disabilities=20that=20can't=20be=20controlled=20such=20as=20the=20functioni= ng=20of=20 eyes=20or missing=20limbs.=20=20In=20a=20nutshell,=20which=20I=20have=20problems=20fi= tting=20 things=20into, smile,=20my=20point=20is=20that=20body=20language=20and=20many=20facial=20e= xpressions=20 are picked=20up=20through=20learned=20behavior.=20=20Whether=20we=20learn=20thi= s=20 behavior=20visually or=20nonvisually,=20it=20doesn't=20mean=20we're=20just=20going=20through=20= the=20 motions- acting=20as=20it=20were.=20=20It's=20the=20same=20process=20just=20done=20n= onvisually.=20=20 Just=20as=20we learn=20to=20read=20and=20write=20Braille=20or=20use=20adaptive=20technolog= y=20with=20 computers. We're=20doing=20the=20same=20things,=20just=20in=20a=20different=20way.=20= =20I=20also=20 don't=20think=20we can=20compare=20certain=20changes=20nade=20,=20physically=20or=20internally= ,=20 indicative=20of race=20or=20ethnicity,=20to=20correcting=20social=20behavior=20such=20as=20= body=20 language=20or facial=20expressions=20either=20linked=20to=20other=20disabilities=20or=20 inappropriate=20to a=20given=20situation.=20=20Sincerely,=20Bridgit=20Kuenning-Pollpeter=20Rea= d=20my=20 blog=20at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/=20"History=20is=20 not=20what happened;=20history=20is=20what=20was=20written=20down."=20The=20Expected=20= One-=20 Kathleen McGowan=20Message:=207=20Date:=20Fri,=2018=20Nov=202011=2013:26:31=20-0700= =20From:=20 Marc=20Workman =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20 Students mailing=20list=20=20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Blindnes= s=20 versus other=20minority=20groups=20Message-ID: <039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com>=20Content-Type:=20 text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii=20Carly=20wrote,=20How=20can=20facial=20expressions=20an= d=20 other=20body language=20convey=20meaning=20if=20they=20are=20not=20naturally,=20ocuring?= =20For=20 this=20reason I=20don't=20see=20a=20reason=20to=20sort=20of=20put=20on=20nonverbal,=20exp= ression=20if,=20 behind=20it there=20is=20little,=20meaning?=20I=20want=20to=20take=20Carly's=20point=20= further=20 and=20suggest that=20pressuring=20blind=20people=20to=20look=20and=20act=20like=20others= =20is=20in=20 itself wrong.=20=20I'm=20not=20suggesting=20there=20is=20no=20value=20to=20it,=20n= or=20am=20I=20 saying=20it should=20never=20be=20done,=20but=20it=20makes=20me=20uncomfortable.=20=20T= he=20subject=20 of=20this thread=20is=20comparing=20blindness=20to=20other=20minorities.=20=20I=20thi= nk=20 there's=20a parallel=20between=20pressuring=20blind=20people=20to=20look=20and=20act=20= like=20 everyone=20else and=20things=20that=20some=20minorities=20used=20to=20do=20and=20still=20do= =20for=20 similar reasons.=20=20In=20the=20past,=20among=20African=20Americans,=20there=20exi= sted=20the=20 practice of=20skin=20bleaching=20and=20hair=20straightening=20for=20the=20purpose=20= of=20 appearing=20less black=20and/or=20more=20white.=20=20I=20can't=20give=20evidence=20to=20show= =20how=20 common=20this was,=20but=20Malcolm=20X=20talked=20about=20trying=20to=20remove=20the=20ki= nk=20from=20 his=20hair himself=20and=20finding=20it=20a=20physically=20and=20emotionally=20painful= =20 process.=20=20There are=20also=20surgeries=20performed=20to=20give=20people=20of=20East=20Asian= =20descent=20 more "white=20looking"=20eyes=20and=20Jews=20more=20"white=20looking"=20noses.=20= =20These=20 are=20just=20a couple=20of=20examples.=20=20Pressuring=20minorities=20to=20adopt=20the=20d= ominant=20 group's style=20of=20dress,=20gate,=20diction,=20body=20language,=20etc=20also=20of= ten=20 happens.=20=20I hope=20we=20can=20agree=20that=20this=20is=20at=20the=20very=20least=20unfo= rtunate.=20=20 There=20may=20be psychological=20and=20other=20explanations=20for=20why=20this=20occurs,=20b= ut=20 feeling pressured=20to=20get=20a=20nose=20job=20or=20to=20bleach=20your=20skin=20so= =20that=20you=20 look=20more like=20one=20particular=20group=20in=20society=20is=20problematic=20to=20sa= y=20the=20 least.=20=20So what's=20the=20difference=20between=20these=20cases=20and=20pressuring=20a= =20blind=20 person=20to adopt=20the=20behavioural=20habits,=20facial=20expressions,=20body=20langua= ge=20 etc=20of=20some sighted=20people?=20You=20might=20say=20that=20we=20live=20in=20a=20sighted= =20world=20and=20 so=20we have=20to=20adapt.=20=20There=20is=20something=20to=20this,=20but=20I=20won= der=20if=20it=20 would=20be equally=20acceptable=20to=20say=20we=20live=20in=20a=20white-dominated=20wo= rld=20so=20 non-whites have=20to=20adapt.=20=20It=20may=20be=20the=20case=20that=20blind=20people= =20who=20don't=20 "look=20blind" are=20more=20successful=20and=20integrate=20better,=20and=20it=20also=20may= =20be=20that non-whites=20who=20look=20and=20act=20white=20are=20more=20successful=20and= =20 integrate=20better, but=20in=20neither=20case=20is=20it=20just=20that=20the=20minorities=20need= =20to=20assume=20 the dominant=20groups=20characteristics=20in=20order=20to=20be=20successful.=20= =20What=20 ultimately needs=20to=20happen=20is=20not=20that=20blind=20people=20begin=20to=20look= =20and=20act=20 like=20sighted people,=20but=20that=20we=20all=20become=20more=20accepting=20of=20differen= ces=20that=20 are arbitrary=20and=20irrelevant.=20=20Most,=20if=20not=20all,=20so=20called=20= blindisms=20 are irrelevant,=20and=20I=20see=20no=20more=20reason=20to=20stamp=20them=20out= =20than=20I=20do=20 for=20trying to=20eliminate=20various=20differences=20in=20behaviour=20and=20appearance= =20 possessed=20by other=20minority=20groups.=20=20Cheers, _______________________________________________=20nabs-l=20mailing=20 list nabs-l at nfbnet.org=20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org=20To unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20account=20= info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________=20nabs-l=20mailing=20 list nabs-l at nfbnet.org=20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org=20To unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20account=20= info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40ea rthlink.net That's screen readers for you, Frandi! Sometimes we don't pick up on all the letters and don't spell some words correctly only because we didn't hear it right. She didn't do that on purpose. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: Hi=20Joshua, What=20is=20your=20carrier? Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Joshua=20Lester=20=20wrote: =20Hi=20all, =20Phone=20models=20seem=20to=20go=20in=20and=20out=20quickly.=20=20I=92m=20= planning=20to=20get=20 a=20verizon =20phone;=20I=20would=20prefer=20that=20it=20talk=20the=20menus=20and=20rea= d=20text=20 messages.=20=20but=20I =20don=92t=20care=20for=20one=20with=20the=20internet=20and=20do=20not=20wa= nt=20an=20I=20phone. =20I=92d=20like=20one=20with=20a=20calendar,=20alarm,=20and=20voice=20recor= der=20feature=20 if=20possible. =20So=20any=20ideas?=20I=20know=20a=20few=20friends=20have=20the=20NV2=20an= d=20NV3,=20but=20I=20 don=92t=20know=20if =20they=20still=20are=20produced. =20What=20accessible=20phones=20do=20you=20have=20and=20like? =20Thanks. =20Ashley =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 23:38:09 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 18:38:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Message-ID: <4ecd8410.a26e340a.45b4.06d6@mx.google.com> Female.=20=20I'm=20not=20sure=20what=20speech=20synthesizer=20it=20uses,=20= though. Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 P.S.=20=20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually= =20impaired=20 youth=20in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through= =20 providing=20assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and= =20 conventions=20which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20p= eers.=20=20 For=20more=20information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20= our=20 work,=20visit=20us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20 Hi Ashley, You're right. I too can tell what people are doing nonverbally sometimes. It depends on the gesture they use. And yes, you can definitely hear the sounds of shoes! I joke with my teachers a lot (especially the ones who wear high heels.) I told one of my teachers, "Guess it's harder to sneak up on a blind person when you're wearing high heels and the blind person can hear you coming from a mile away!" I knew her well enough to know that I could give her a hard time about that, and she laughed! Also... has anyone besides me noticed this? You can sometimes tell who a person (especially a woman, not to stereotype, just saying) is without them talking to you by the scent of their perfume, if they wear it. I had a teacher in 7th grade who wore the same perfume every day, and a lot of it at that. It was so funny when we did a blindness simulation for my class and a couple people asked me how I could say hi to her and call her by name when she didn't even talk to me first? When I told them, some of them didn't believe me, and some thought that was weird that I "smell" her. But, I thought, I don't try; it's impossible to miss! But the amazing part was that the sighted students didn't even notice that fact about her! This goes back to my ongoing mantra when I talk to sighted people about blindness; sighted people take their sight for granted. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" SXQgbWlnaHQgYWxzbyBiZSBhIGdvb2QgbGVhcm5pbmcgb3Bwb3J0dW5pdHkgZm9yIHRoZSBjbGFz cyB0byAKbGVhcm4gdGhlIGtleXN0cm9rZXMuICBUaGlzIGhlbHBzIGV2ZW4gc2lnaHRlZCBwZW9w bGUgc29tZXRpbWVzLiAgCkZvciBleGFtcGxlLCBteSBtb20gd2FzIGhhdmluZyB0cm91YmxlIGZv ciBhIGNvdXBsZSBkYXlzIGdldHRpbmcgCmhlciBtb3VzZSB0byB3b3JrLCBzbyBzaGUgaGFkIHRv IHJlbHkgb24gdGhlIGtleXN0cm9rZXMgSSBzaG93ZWQgCmhlciBhbmQgdGhhdCBJIHVzZSBvbiBt eSBjb21wdXRlciB3aXRoIEpBV1MuICBJdCB3b3JrZWQgZ3JlYXQuLi4gIAp1bnRpbCBzaGUgdHJp ZWQgdG8gZG8gYW4gSW5zZXJ0IEYgNy4KCkNocmlzCgoiVGhlIHJlYWwgcHJvYmxlbSBvZiBibGlu ZG5lc3MgaXMgbm90IHRoZSBsb3NzIG9mIGV5ZXNpZ2h0LiAgVGhlIApyZWFsIHByb2JsZW0gaXMg dGhlIG1pc3VuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmcgYW5kIGxhY2sgb2YgZWR1Y2F0aW9uIHRoYXQgCmV4aXN0cy4g IElmIGEgYmxpbmQgcGVyc29uIGhhcyB0aGUgcHJvcGVyIHRyYWluaW5nIGFuZCAKb3Bwb3J0dW5p 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aW9ucy9uYWJzLWxfbmZibmV0Lm9yZy9kb3RraWQubnVzYmF1Cm0lNDBnbWFpbC5jb20KCgoKCgoK CgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpuYWJzLWwg bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cm5hYnMtbEBuZmJuZXQub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly9uZmJuZXQub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vbmFicy1sX25mYm5ldC5vcmcKVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUsIGNoYW5nZSB5b3VyIGxp c3Qgb3B0aW9ucyBvciBnZXQgeW91ciBhY2NvdW50IGluZm8gCmZvcgpuYWJzLWw6Cmh0dHA6Ly9u ZmJuZXQub3JnL21haWxtYW4vb3B0aW9ucy9uYWJzLWxfbmZibmV0Lm9yZy9ib29rd29ybWFoYiU0 CjBlYXJ0aGxpbmsubmV0CgoKCi0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tIG5leHQgcGFydCAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LQpBIG5vbi10ZXh0IGF0dGFjaG1lbnQgd2FzIHNjcnViYmVkLi4uCk5hbWU6IGF0dGFjaG1lbnQK VHlwZTogYXBwbGljYXRpb24vb2N0ZXQtc3RyZWFtClNpemU6IDMwNCBieXRlcwpEZXNjOiBub3Qg YXZhaWxhYmxlClVSTDogPGh0dHA6Ly9uZmJuZXQub3JnL3BpcGVybWFpbC9uYWJzLWxfbmZibmV0 Lm9yZy9hdHRhY2htZW50cy8yMDExMTEyMy9lOWMzYTU1My9hdHRhY2htZW50LmE+Cg== From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 24 00:56:37 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 18:56:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jedi, That's true about children in orphanages, or homes, that don't allow for exploration. In terms of adoption, a lot of adopting families have had to hurdle this obstacle when adopting children from particular orphanages. My dad, who's a minister, went on a mission trip to Romania a few years ago, and while visiting a local orphanage, he encountered many children who had never experienced much outside a crib and the orphanage walls. They didn't recognize love either, and many end up with disassociative identity disorder, which is a psychological condition where a person has severe issues interacting with other people. It shares similarities with some behaviors seen with autism. Someone pointed this out in a post, but I can't remember who, but a lot of problems and behavior exhibited by blind people isn't specific to blindness, but people, us included, attribute it to the blindness. Just like if my shoulder clips a wall even when caning properly, and it's something anybody could do, but because I'm blind, this is what it's attributed to. I always tell people that if sight is what keeps us from accidents, sighted people would never have accidents. This usually makes people think and giggle, smile. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 6 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 20:19:21 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versuses other minority groups Message-ID: 537e9ac1-72a2-4261-abeb-aa793d2d79af at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Bridgit, It's a thought supported by research. Back in the 80s and 90s, Romanian children in orphanages were studied. Back then, these orphanages were known for keeping their kids cooped up in small spaces with not a lot of adult attention. Researchers found that these children exhibited some pretty strange mannerisms of movement and behavior, much like the ones we often find in blind children who didn't get much opportunity to explore the world and socialize with others. Annecdotally, we've found that getting blind children involved in the world from birth, as we do other children, seems to lessen the impact of unusual developments of behavior. As a sort of research, we could each consider , the kind of mannerisms we have or used to have, and think about whether or not we had much opportunity for exploration. I'd be interested to see if there is a contingent relationship here based just on our observations of our own lives. As for myself, I used to rock a lot, but I also used to have a fair amount of exploration. In my case, I wonder if I didn't pick up rocking from my mother; she used to rock quite a lot herself and she is sighted. I will say that I didn't have much social opportunity; I lived in an isolated situation most of my younger years with few children to play with. I think I experienced some fear regarding certain activities and so didn't engage in them much. As a result, I don't think I developed physically as well as I maybe could have until much later. As for the rocking, my mother and I both decided to try a new technique to kick the habit: we both decided to substitute the behavior for one considered more "normal." I don't know how well the technique worked for my mother, but it worked for me; I suspect changing my behavior caused me to consider it consciously and thus extinguish it. Respectfully, Jedi From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 24 01:59:52 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 19:59:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jedi, I never said blind people who don't exhibit blindisms aren't discriminated against and still considered odd. My point is that certain blindisms don't help the situation. Blindness itself is an issue that the world still doesn't understand, and in my opinion, the misunderstanding is in part due to blind people ourselves. I can't change the minds of every single person who sees and observes me. This would be an impossible feat for anyone, disabled or not. I have to live my life, and be as independent as I have the potential for, and hopefully my actions will speak volumes. Many people will observe this in us, but there will always be those who can't see past the blindness no matter what we say or do. Having said all that, in my experience, people who get to know me usually end up realizing blindness isn't that big of a deal. And I'm not just speaking about close friends and family. I've had instructors, classmates and colleagues say that they now realize blindness, while not something you wish for, isn't the end of the world; and that learning to be independent and efficient without sight doesn't take superhuman abilities. We have a lot of work and much to do, but if we all would take certain ideas to heart, perhaps we would see more change in the world in terms of attitudes towards blindness. It may be insensitive, and it may be wrong, but since the beginning of time humans have judged based on appearance; some are more shallow than others. I get what you're saying, but try putting that theory into practice. It's not about acting sighted or conforming to a dominant standard, which in this case is sight; as previously argued, most behaviors like rocking, poking eyes and making inappropriate facial expressions isn't specific to blindness. It should be curbed no matter if a person has a disability or not. If the behavior is not one that can be controlled such as symptoms of Parkinson's or CP, that's one thing, but if it's behavior, either learned or developed another way, I think we should consider correcting it. Sorry, but I've been sighted, and to be honest, if I came across a person exhibiting some of the behavior I've seen in blind people, I'd wonder what the hell was wrong with them. Without the knowledge about blindness, what frame of reference do I have? I would wonder the same about a sighted person exhibiting the same behavior. I'm exaggerating my point here to display how many people think. I have family members and friends with various disabilities including deafness and developmental disabilities. Long before losing my sight, I understood a lot about disability, and I think this is what, in part, helped me accept blindness so quickly, and embrace the concept of complete independence for the blind. Most people, though, aren't armed with this knowledge, and all they see is a person exhibiting odd, at times anti-social, behavior. This is an extreme, but you argue that we should be accepted despite any behavior exhibited that's out of the norm. Any so called blindisms should just be considered normal for that person. While researching a few years ago for a paper, I came across a study. A blind student in Florida was masturbating during class. No one had ever explained to him that just because he couldn't see what others were doing didn't mean they couldn't see him. His teacher was blind too, and after testing him, the student didn't have other disabilities. This was natural for him (yeah, yeah, input joke) and with some lines of logic, he should be left alone; why does he have to conform? You will say that this is socially unacceptable, and it makes others uneasy. So does severe rocking and eye poking. On a philosophical level, what's the difference? I'm not trying to equate masturbating to rocking, but based on certain arguments here, this student should be allowed to express himself in the manner he sees as best. He's not hurting anyone; but he's causing discomfort to others. So is the person exhibiting other socially unacceptable behavior. I'm not condoning this type of behavior, by any means, but to make a point, I use this study to see how is it really different, in context to this discussion, than other socially unacceptable behaviors that we are suppose to just be content with. And you say it's not worth all the stress to fit into a sighted world. What does this mean? Does not integration imply we become a part of the social norms? We can't really argue for integration if we simultaneously argue to have socially unacceptable behaviors be considered normal and acceptable. You can't really have your cake and eat it to on this matter. And statements like this also place a divide between us and sighted people; we become a different type of human, which I thought is exactly what the Federation is fighting against. We're suppose to be just like our sighted peers except we may use different tools and methods in order to accomplish things. But if we resist any type of integration, we go against the grain of this goal. And what about people like me? I use to be sighted, so what world do I fit into? Or those of you with useable vision, where do you fit in? Equal means no dividing line, no "us vs. them" mentalities. So how is it fitting into a "sighted world" when, one, we're suppose to be equals, and two, it's behavior found in sighted and blind alike. You can't really argue it's fitting into sighty's idea of normal when we've already established it's not behavior necessarily specific to blindness. People should be accepted for themselves, and negative attitudes towards disability must change, but certain behavior, whether displayed in someone with a disability or not, should probably be corrected if not a part of a social norm. We're not speaking about clothing or fashion or trends, we're not even talking about diseases like Parkinson's or CP, we're addressing behavior picked up one way or another, that can be corrected and controlled, that just isn't accepted by society. It's not about fitting into a "sighted world," but it's about fitting into the world, period. I'm sick of all this sighted vs. blindness. If we're humans who, as it happens can't use their eyes, why do we constantly argue the sight vs. blind point? Yes, we still have a long way to go with changing attitudes and mindsets, but insisting there's a huge canyon between us doesn't help the situation. Perhaps the canyon is there, and is still vast, because we keep placing distinctions between blind and sighted people. Don't whine about equality if you don't think we're the same. Using different tools and methods doesn't make us different; it's no different than speaking a different language; we're still humans. Stop labeling us as different in our language. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 9 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 20:48:12 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: 56d7f4fb-c166-4a1c-9216-1596de0858ce at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Bridgit, I would submit that it really doesn't matter whether or not a person has mannerisms. The fact is that we're still discriminated against, still treated as non-beings by sighted people, have our lives pried into by sighted people, have people compliment us for being "normal," and experience several other demeaning things that we've all talked about here. Sure, a kid who doesn't rock may have more friends, but those friends often think we're superhuman or somehow amazing because we're so-called "normal." Therefore, I conclude that the only thing we really get out of worrying so much about body language and the like is added stress from our own self-judgment and the judgment of others in the blindness field. It seems to me that we need a different attitude toward these so-called blindisms. I personally think they could be used as a source of information. They might signal a need for movement. Maybe they signal boredom or excitement. whatever it is, they might serve us by alerting us to mind states we are not really aware of. I think this is also the case for unconscious self-adapters used by the sighted like twittling the thumbs or shaking the leg. I've heard some people suggest that people press their eyes because it provides pain relief or because it produces inner images that are pretty to look at like stars and such. I see nothing wrong with that. But if the person in question doesn't wish to do this in public for whatever reason, they can always have their cake and eat it too by simply doing the behavior in private. And about this body language thing we've been hashing out. I'm personally horrified and saddened by the idea that we should strive to immulate the sighted. There is something to be said for adopting culturally appropriate behaviors for the context you are in, but the added stress of trying to please others with these behaviors may not be worth it. I'd much rather learn about a new behavior and keep it on the back burner for when I think I might need it, but focus on communicating in the best way i know how. Our multicultural world has the benefit of greater acceptance than it used to. For instance, I've never heard a Japanese person say nasty things about an American who didn't bow upon leaving a shop. While some may think "That American's rude," others might realize that Americans don't usually bow as a matter of course. In application to a blind person, one might notice that we may prefer to turn an ear to them rather than our eyes from time to time, but they may also have the sense to realize that turning an ear may be one of the many effective methods we have adapted for our use in communication. Yes, we should know how to turn our eyes to them, but we shouldn't stress out over it and proclaim social gloom and doom for those who don't regularly adopt the behavior. Am I making any sense here? The bottom line for me is this. I think that all people could learn to communicate better with each other and that blind people certainly have no monopoly on lack of social skills. I don't think it's worth the stress to try to fit in the with the sighted. I'd rather just communicate in the best way that seems right for the moment; this strategy usually works out for me. And i suspect it works out for most of us given that the more important forms of body language seem to come naturally to us regardless of however we picked them up. Respectfully, Jedi From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Thu Nov 24 02:30:18 2011 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 20:30:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes References: <4ecd83fd.a26e340a.45b4.06c7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000701ccaa51$02345a00$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good evening everyone, Cosmetic and corrective surgery has done much to eliminate the need for a blind person to conceal their eyes by wearing dark glasses. During one of my corneal transplants the doctor removed some structures from my right eye that made it appear abnormal. If you wear sun glasses that's another matter but I could never stand the thought of having to wear them just because someone may not like the way my eyes appear. That's their problem not mine! JMO. Have a blessed and wonderful Thanksgiving. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes I have a prosthetic eye in my right eye (the eyeball of which was removed surgically because of pain I was having in it) and I have a shell over the eyeball in my left eye. I don't wear sunglasses either, as the color on the prosthetics does the trick of making my eyes look normal. When they're out, according to my sighted parents, my eyes look opaque and the right eye looks like it has a hole in it where the eyeball used to be. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: Jewel wrote: I believe if it is something you can not control you shouldn't have to hide it and I actually think when blind people where sun glasses inside it just looks more stereotypical and reenforces the old stigmas. I only know one blind person who can pull off sun glasses all the time and he actually has beautiful eyes but he kind of has this rock star look when he wheres them so it doesn't look funny. Some people can get away with it and actually make it look good, but most can not. However on the same token I where makeup to cover serdury scars under my eyes, and strangers are more willing to talk to me when I do as aposed to when I don't. So while society does need to be more excepting of people and we should strive twards that end it is not usually what you can expect from the world. The world is cruel and judgmental. As I said before you have to be true to you, but there is a degree in which you should care. On that same token it is hard to always know what society will and wont expect. Obviously behaviors and things you can help should be things you care about but eyes well that is a personal choice. Is it silly for me to cover up my scars so I am more approachable or am I being overly concerned. I suppose make up is considered normal by society so maybe it isn't so odd to where it for that reason. Eyes however can not be covered up unless you where coloured contacts or sun glasses. I personally think sun glasses are silly unless you are out doors and it is a sunny day or you have a sensativity. Coloured contacts might be an option if you are truly concerned about the appearance of your eyes and that is something sighted people do to if they do not like their eye colour but I would imagine it gets expensive. Usually peoples "weered" eyes are not usually as strange as they think,so it really is a personal choice like makeup. -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 6:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes well, light is a factor, one reason to cover eyes. another one is appearance. If it detracts from your looks, you do what you need to do for acceptance. I think doing this on a job interview would help get you a job. -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 5:36 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Concealing eyes While I understand where you're coming from, I disagree about a blind person covering their eyes just to make sighted people feel more at ease. Many of us where sunglasses for various reasons. I where mine on days when light is causing extra sensitivity or when I opt to not wear make-up, smile. I have a friend who wears sunglasses to hide scar tissue and another to hide a glass eye. I think it's time the world learn to accept people as they are. If glass eyes, or eyes with scarring, or cloudiness, cause discomfort among sighted people, does this mean we need start concealing missing limbs, birth, or accident related, deformaties, scarring on burn victims? The list is endless. I understand your comments, and I understand why some choose to cover up any "abnormality" with their eyes, but I think this is unjustly unfair. We, to some degree, have sway over how we act and present ourselves to the public, but for many, they have no control over the function, or lack thereof, color or clarity of their eyes. We shouldn't teach blind kids to conceal something they can't control, but instead we should educate society to accept that disability is a part of life and to be comfortable with people who may have a physical deformity (for lack of a better word at the moment) scar, missing limb, cognitive impairment or any other "abnormal" issue. I think it all goes back to us, the disabled people, having to fit into a mold in order to make others feel more comfortable, or taking submissive roles so society doesn't feel awkward. We shouldn't have to take extra measures in terms of a physical aspect out of our control just so others feel better. We're human and have feelings. What about the world taking extra measures so we feel less uncomfortable around those who aren't disabled or have a physical condition considered abnormal? I agree that people who are blind can learn how to dress and interact in ways that are more socially acceptable, but hiding your eyes because they make others uncomfortable seems like the wrong message. Perhaps this is a bit of a leap, but we once were relegated to dark corners and institutionalized just so society didn't have to literally look at us, causing them discomfort and guilt. Is covering eyes, limbs, scars, fractures, etc. just a new way of relegating us into a different kind of dark corner? Hide as much of us as possible so we don't frighten the nondisabled population? God forbid people with disabilities get to feel human for once. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 3 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:55:01 -0500 From: Tara Annis References: <4ecd8962.a26e340a.45b4.0b4d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <678F4BD712AA4FA18717051AF448B780@OwnerPC> Chris, I can identify people by scents too. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 7:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Hi Ashley, You're right. I too can tell what people are doing nonverbally sometimes. It depends on the gesture they use. And yes, you can definitely hear the sounds of shoes! I joke with my teachers a lot (especially the ones who wear high heels.) I told one of my teachers, "Guess it's harder to sneak up on a blind person when you're wearing high heels and the blind person can hear you coming from a mile away!" I knew her well enough to know that I could give her a hard time about that, and she laughed! Also... has anyone besides me noticed this? You can sometimes tell who a person (especially a woman, not to stereotype, just saying) is without them talking to you by the scent of their perfume, if they wear it. I had a teacher in 7th grade who wore the same perfume every day, and a lot of it at that. It was so funny when we did a blindness simulation for my class and a couple people asked me how I could say hi to her and call her by name when she didn't even talk to me first? When I told them, some of them didn't believe me, and some thought that was weird that I "smell" her. But, I thought, I don't try; it's impossible to miss! But the amazing part was that the sighted students didn't even notice that fact about her! This goes back to my ongoing mantra when I talk to sighted people about blindness; sighted people take their sight for granted. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" References: Message-ID: <62DA72A2AB94493E974AE34B9B3B0DE3@OwnerPC> Bridgit, Wow, a novel. I felt like you do. I like your examples. Its not about sighted vs blind behavior. I said blindisms only because blind people exhibit such behavior if not reinforced not to do it. But really its about behavior and fitting into society and well acting socially appropriate. Barbara Pierce wrote some good articles in Future reflections about teaching blind kids proper manners, eating skills, and socializing. Like you, before this discussion, I thought about these norms I was taught like facing the person I'm speaking to or eye contact, shaking hands, appropriate posture, not picking nose, not chewing gum loudly in public settings like college, etc as just social behavior. I did not think at all of this as sighted vs blind. I thought I'm an American girl like everyone else. My parents and teachers taught my brothers how to act. They taught me to some extent too. My parents did not teach me about clothes matching because they did not know how, same with hair, but manners they did. Also, I have some vision and when I see blind people acting so weird like a few who open their mouths for no reason or pick their nose, I wonder what is wrong with them? I'm in the middle being visually impaired. So I see where blind people come from and sighted people too. Great post as always. I might have some questions about your modeling and acting classes later. Happy thanksgiving! Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 8:59 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Jedi, I never said blind people who don't exhibit blindisms aren't discriminated against and still considered odd. My point is that certain blindisms don't help the situation. Blindness itself is an issue that the world still doesn't understand, and in my opinion, the misunderstanding is in part due to blind people ourselves. I can't change the minds of every single person who sees and observes me. This would be an impossible feat for anyone, disabled or not. I have to live my life, and be as independent as I have the potential for, and hopefully my actions will speak volumes. Many people will observe this in us, but there will always be those who can't see past the blindness no matter what we say or do. Having said all that, in my experience, people who get to know me usually end up realizing blindness isn't that big of a deal. And I'm not just speaking about close friends and family. I've had instructors, classmates and colleagues say that they now realize blindness, while not something you wish for, isn't the end of the world; and that learning to be independent and efficient without sight doesn't take superhuman abilities. We have a lot of work and much to do, but if we all would take certain ideas to heart, perhaps we would see more change in the world in terms of attitudes towards blindness. It may be insensitive, and it may be wrong, but since the beginning of time humans have judged based on appearance; some are more shallow than others. I get what you're saying, but try putting that theory into practice. It's not about acting sighted or conforming to a dominant standard, which in this case is sight; as previously argued, most behaviors like rocking, poking eyes and making inappropriate facial expressions isn't specific to blindness. It should be curbed no matter if a person has a disability or not. If the behavior is not one that can be controlled such as symptoms of Parkinson's or CP, that's one thing, but if it's behavior, either learned or developed another way, I think we should consider correcting it. Sorry, but I've been sighted, and to be honest, if I came across a person exhibiting some of the behavior I've seen in blind people, I'd wonder what the hell was wrong with them. Without the knowledge about blindness, what frame of reference do I have? I would wonder the same about a sighted person exhibiting the same behavior. I'm exaggerating my point here to display how many people think. I have family members and friends with various disabilities including deafness and developmental disabilities. Long before losing my sight, I understood a lot about disability, and I think this is what, in part, helped me accept blindness so quickly, and embrace the concept of complete independence for the blind. Most people, though, aren't armed with this knowledge, and all they see is a person exhibiting odd, at times anti-social, behavior. This is an extreme, but you argue that we should be accepted despite any behavior exhibited that's out of the norm. Any so called blindisms should just be considered normal for that person. While researching a few years ago for a paper, I came across a study. A blind student in Florida was masturbating during class. No one had ever explained to him that just because he couldn't see what others were doing didn't mean they couldn't see him. His teacher was blind too, and after testing him, the student didn't have other disabilities. This was natural for him (yeah, yeah, input joke) and with some lines of logic, he should be left alone; why does he have to conform? You will say that this is socially unacceptable, and it makes others uneasy. So does severe rocking and eye poking. On a philosophical level, what's the difference? I'm not trying to equate masturbating to rocking, but based on certain arguments here, this student should be allowed to express himself in the manner he sees as best. He's not hurting anyone; but he's causing discomfort to others. So is the person exhibiting other socially unacceptable behavior. I'm not condoning this type of behavior, by any means, but to make a point, I use this study to see how is it really different, in context to this discussion, than other socially unacceptable behaviors that we are suppose to just be content with. And you say it's not worth all the stress to fit into a sighted world. What does this mean? Does not integration imply we become a part of the social norms? We can't really argue for integration if we simultaneously argue to have socially unacceptable behaviors be considered normal and acceptable. You can't really have your cake and eat it to on this matter. And statements like this also place a divide between us and sighted people; we become a different type of human, which I thought is exactly what the Federation is fighting against. We're suppose to be just like our sighted peers except we may use different tools and methods in order to accomplish things. But if we resist any type of integration, we go against the grain of this goal. And what about people like me? I use to be sighted, so what world do I fit into? Or those of you with useable vision, where do you fit in? Equal means no dividing line, no "us vs. them" mentalities. So how is it fitting into a "sighted world" when, one, we're suppose to be equals, and two, it's behavior found in sighted and blind alike. You can't really argue it's fitting into sighty's idea of normal when we've already established it's not behavior necessarily specific to blindness. People should be accepted for themselves, and negative attitudes towards disability must change, but certain behavior, whether displayed in someone with a disability or not, should probably be corrected if not a part of a social norm. We're not speaking about clothing or fashion or trends, we're not even talking about diseases like Parkinson's or CP, we're addressing behavior picked up one way or another, that can be corrected and controlled, that just isn't accepted by society. It's not about fitting into a "sighted world," but it's about fitting into the world, period. I'm sick of all this sighted vs. blindness. If we're humans who, as it happens can't use their eyes, why do we constantly argue the sight vs. blind point? Yes, we still have a long way to go with changing attitudes and mindsets, but insisting there's a huge canyon between us doesn't help the situation. Perhaps the canyon is there, and is still vast, because we keep placing distinctions between blind and sighted people. Don't whine about equality if you don't think we're the same. Using different tools and methods doesn't make us different; it's no different than speaking a different language; we're still humans. Stop labeling us as different in our language. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 9 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 20:48:12 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: 56d7f4fb-c166-4a1c-9216-1596de0858ce at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Bridgit, I would submit that it really doesn't matter whether or not a person has mannerisms. The fact is that we're still discriminated against, still treated as non-beings by sighted people, have our lives pried into by sighted people, have people compliment us for being "normal," and experience several other demeaning things that we've all talked about here. Sure, a kid who doesn't rock may have more friends, but those friends often think we're superhuman or somehow amazing because we're so-called "normal." Therefore, I conclude that the only thing we really get out of worrying so much about body language and the like is added stress from our own self-judgment and the judgment of others in the blindness field. It seems to me that we need a different attitude toward these so-called blindisms. I personally think they could be used as a source of information. They might signal a need for movement. Maybe they signal boredom or excitement. whatever it is, they might serve us by alerting us to mind states we are not really aware of. I think this is also the case for unconscious self-adapters used by the sighted like twittling the thumbs or shaking the leg. I've heard some people suggest that people press their eyes because it provides pain relief or because it produces inner images that are pretty to look at like stars and such. I see nothing wrong with that. But if the person in question doesn't wish to do this in public for whatever reason, they can always have their cake and eat it too by simply doing the behavior in private. And about this body language thing we've been hashing out. I'm personally horrified and saddened by the idea that we should strive to immulate the sighted. There is something to be said for adopting culturally appropriate behaviors for the context you are in, but the added stress of trying to please others with these behaviors may not be worth it. I'd much rather learn about a new behavior and keep it on the back burner for when I think I might need it, but focus on communicating in the best way i know how. Our multicultural world has the benefit of greater acceptance than it used to. For instance, I've never heard a Japanese person say nasty things about an American who didn't bow upon leaving a shop. While some may think "That American's rude," others might realize that Americans don't usually bow as a matter of course. In application to a blind person, one might notice that we may prefer to turn an ear to them rather than our eyes from time to time, but they may also have the sense to realize that turning an ear may be one of the many effective methods we have adapted for our use in communication. Yes, we should know how to turn our eyes to them, but we shouldn't stress out over it and proclaim social gloom and doom for those who don't regularly adopt the behavior. Am I making any sense here? The bottom line for me is this. I think that all people could learn to communicate better with each other and that blind people certainly have no monopoly on lack of social skills. I don't think it's worth the stress to try to fit in the with the sighted. I'd rather just communicate in the best way that seems right for the moment; this strategy usually works out for me. And i suspect it works out for most of us given that the more important forms of body language seem to come naturally to us regardless of however we picked them up. Respectfully, Jedi _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu Nov 24 03:09:06 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:09:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] How we appear towards sighted Message-ID: 0354d5fd-c1cf-4706-b131-565ba4fe9acf@samobile.net Tara, I'm right with you there. For me, the bottom line is that it's up to each of us what we do and why; we shouldn't be doing one thing or another just to please others, especially if their opinion really doesn't matter anyway. And to tell you the truth, the opinions of most sighted people really don't matter, and this is the case whether you are blind or sighted. It seems to me, however, that we as a class tend to base a lot of our decisions regarding blindness on the opinions of the sighted who really haven't a clue what our experiences mean to us. I don't think that makes a lot of sense. Just saying. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > I do wish more people would think logically and stop basing their sole > judgment of a person's abilities based on how they look. Yes, the > world is cruel, and I hate this reality. I do believe that more > etiquette training needs to be done. There are people who really > think that one can discern intelligence solely based on looks, blind > are not the only to suffer from this stereotype, think about little > people or people in wheelchairs. > I don't care if a blind person chooses to rock and have other > blindisms or has body language comparable to the sighted, but I feel > that a blind person should have full knowledge of how the public views > them, as well as all other aspects of the world, if they wish to > receive this info. I'm not saying all blind have to learn this, it's a > free country, people can choose what they wish to know and learn about. > For those who are interested, though, make sure they have the same > information about their environment that the sighted have access to, > some of which we can figure out without sighted assistance, but some > of it is impossible to discern without help. I would like to have more > input from a sighted person about what goes on in crowded public > places, like the mall or subway, where a lot of nonverbal communication > goes on. For example, I want to know about every passenger on the bus, > what facial expression does each one have? are they reading magazines > or staring into > space? How many times does each person make eye contact with others? > how are they dressed? This information would help us know how well we > fit into the world. I think having this info would help boost blind > people's self-esteem and social skills. Maybe an O&M instructor could > incorporate this into lessons. > One way we can learn more about sighted versus blind perceptions is to > ask people who were once sighted and became blind later in life. Or > vice versa, find blind at birth and now sighted, such as Mike May. > Read his book, Crashing Through, where he describes how his perception > changed once he regained his sight. Another book, Emma and I, I can't > remember the author's full name, I think Shelia something, talks about > her being blind from cataracts until she was in her twenties. She had > an operation that did restore her vision to almost perfect, and she was > shocked at her new world. She describes in vivid detail about how much > body language she lacked as a blind person and how much nonverbal input > she missed from sighted people. She has written several books in this > Emma series that discuss her life. All these books are on bookshare. > While it is considered taboo to tell people about negative aspects of > their appearance, some disabled want to know, and actually consider it > more rude to not divulge info that could make social interaction > easier. For example, I've had deaf friends ask me if their voice > sounded different than sighted, and they wanted the whole truth, even > if it was negative. So I told them. They were grateful, since they had > all the info to decide whether to use their voice in social > situations or instead write notes or use sign language. I have heard > of some blind starting to wear sunglasses after they found out the > number of people who stared at their eyes, or made negative comments > about them, and I've had the opposite blind find this out but decide > not to wear the glasses and ignore people's comments. The bottom line: > it's all subjective, whatever makes the individual feel good. Yet, I > still stick with the argument that to make this decision, whether to > change or not to ch > ange, should be made after all possible info is told to them. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 24 03:49:36 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 21:49:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Um, I've heard plenty of sighted kids be told not to do certain behavior because it's not "normal" or wrong. True, blind people often exhibit certain behavior due to no one stepping up and helping them develop social skills and behavior, which is a parents job. And it is the same with sighted people. My mom is a teacher, and she says the exact same thing about her sighted students as we're stating in this thread: it's not to be insensitive or defamatory towards developmental disabilities, but if you have no cognitive disability whatsoever, you don't want to have people assume you also have some developmental issue. I have relatives with varying levels of developmental disabilities, a couple rather severe. Some of them engage in the rocking, eye poking, inappropriate expressions and mannerisms, just to mention a few. This not only goes to show that what we term Blindism isn't specific to blind people, it also shows why others assume a person exhibiting such behavior may have a developmental disability. I'm not arguing what's right or wrong- I'm simply stating the current reality. And I've heard plenty of, sighted and otherwise, kids be told they don't want to look like they have a developmental disability. This may not be tactful, but I have been around plenty of sighted people who say this to other sighted people. The term retarded is not a great way to describe people with cognitive disabilities, but the point, usually, is why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. For some, it is great than others. My highest functioning relative with MR has a high school comprehension level, which is pretty good. The lowest functioning relative I have is in his early forties and has the comprehension level of a pre-schooler. Again, whether it's right or wrong, do you wanted to be assumed to be low-functioning? I doubt it. And being blind isn't a culture. How can we argue that a particular disability is a culture, or even sub-culture, when, once again, we claim to be equal to others, we just can't see, and we live and grow up with customs, traditions and beliefs the same as those in our environment? Having a specific philosophy about blindness isn't the same as having a separate culture. We live, work and interact in the world; we just do things nonvisually. God, I'm tired of this whole blind vs. sight issue. We have the ability and potential to pursue whatever we want: education, employment, family, social life. It has nothing to do with being cookie-cutter replicas of sighted people; it's about claiming our equality and acting like normal, functioning people regardless of disability. To say that there's nothing wrong with certain behavior because it comes naturally to a person is just an excuse to not change it. We are not discussing alternative skill levels or how independent we are; we're talking about physical behavior that's not acceptable for anyone, sighted or blind alike. If people put a distinction on this behavior simply because of blindness, that mindset needs to be changed, but if we just say, "Hey, that's normal to that person, so they should be able to rock back and forth like a pendulum, or push against their eyes no matter the setting, or stand close enough to people that they're touching, because we just need to accept certain behavior and not associate, or connect, it to any other issue or disability," it sounds like an excuse to give up and not work on yourself as an individual. Don't give me the how people think and act around blind people. So what? If society lumps us in with other disabilities, or fail to understand our true abilities, so what; if we perpetuate the labels and distinctions and stereotypes, we don't get very far. It's not a disability specific thing regardless of what society thinks. And in my own personal experience, I've heard sighted people tell other sighted people the exact same things we're discussing in this thread. They may view it differently if discussing blind people, but nonetheless, they do and say the same things- not all, but many. So we should stop considering it a blind vs. sight issue. Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. If we told each other to conform to a particular thinking or personality or appearance, this would be a perfect example of saying we shouldn't have to follow one standard. We're talking about odd physical movements though that are out of place for most settings. Correcting this isn't conforming to society's standards or sighty's perspective; it's called being a human being, and whether blind or not, certain behavior and mannerisms should be corrected. It should be done gently, with love and not in a demeaning way, but corrected just the same. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 11 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:12:33 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: 16fc5414-d8f5-4814-a8f5-24b67d625da8 at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Bridgit, The difference in teaching the sighted to be appropriate versus the blind is that sighted kids are simply reminded not to do certain things or to do others. With the blind, it's not that simple. There are journal articles written about why we do what we do; these articles often proclaim that we have no or underdeveloped social skills and that the sighted must intervene lest we have no friends later on. You've even seen some of that here perpetuated by our own self-criticisms. When sighted kids are taught to be appropriate, they are told to be appropriate. When blind kids are taught to be appropriate, they are often told not to look like a blind person. it's no accident that our mannerisms are referred to as blindisms. Have you ever heard sighted mannerisms called sightedisms? And what about this notion of looking like a person with a cognitive disability? I've heard comments here like "we shouldn't look retarded because we're not." I am angry with this line of thought because it puts down people with disabilities in general as someone else here has pointed out some time ago. I've never heard comments like this when teaching sighted children to behave a certain way. Marc's right. This isn't just about teaching and learning appropriate behavior. This is about the age-old question every minority faces: assimilation or accommodation? Should we act like the majority or should we find a balance between our cultures and learn to adapt to each other? I prefer the latter myself. i believe in being congruent: I want to be who and what I am; this sometimes includes changing my behavior in some context because I want acceptance from others. In this process, I'm developing an inner meter that tells me when I need to do which, and that meter isn't calibrated to other people's meters because I find such a practice useless and utterly stressful. I'm learning to trust myself to come up with the best behavior for the situation because I am starting to believe I have the knowledge I need or have the resources to receive the knowledge I need in the current moment. Respectfully, Jedi From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 24 04:21:18 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 23:21:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F300F6F9CC40C1AB76DA5847F0EA20@OwnerPC> Bridgit, Very well said and I don't think we're going to convince others of your opinion. I like how you voice your perspective from one who was sighted. And wow, with your modeling, etiquette, and acting classes, I bet you're one of the most well mannered, well dressed people period; not for a blind person, but well put together overall. You seem to have a grasp of clothes and style as well based on other posts I've seen. I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It makes us look worse. We are not all the same, but overall there are some unspoken standards. For instance, dress is one. If you haven't been to a restaurant before, my dad suggests either going by in person and looking around or through the window to see the atmosphere. Is it cloth tablecloths, cloth napkins, fancy glasses? On the other side, is it no tablecloths, regular glasses, paper napkins? How are they dressed? In our case, we can go by and ask diners as they come out for such information. Another idea is my dad calls up and asks the dress code. Again, an example about fitting in. BTW my family is sighted. Another example of comformity is in class. Haven't you noticed that some classes are more friendly than others? A group seems to develop its personality. If people are aloof, I don't talk to them much; if people act friendly, I try and engage them as well. When I'm sitting down eating or waiting, people don't recognize I'm blind. I have glasses and my eyes look pretty normal. I also am not engaging in blindisms; I have a backpack on, and I'm dressed in jeans and casual shirt like other students. So I've been told I don't look blind. Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:49 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Um, I've heard plenty of sighted kids be told not to do certain behavior because it's not "normal" or wrong. True, blind people often exhibit certain behavior due to no one stepping up and helping them develop social skills and behavior, which is a parents job. And it is the same with sighted people. My mom is a teacher, and she says the exact same thing about her sighted students as we're stating in this thread: it's not to be insensitive or defamatory towards developmental disabilities, but if you have no cognitive disability whatsoever, you don't want to have people assume you also have some developmental issue. I have relatives with varying levels of developmental disabilities, a couple rather severe. Some of them engage in the rocking, eye poking, inappropriate expressions and mannerisms, just to mention a few. This not only goes to show that what we term Blindism isn't specific to blind people, it also shows why others assume a person exhibiting such behavior may have a developmental disability. I'm not arguing what's right or wrong- I'm simply stating the current reality. And I've heard plenty of, sighted and otherwise, kids be told they don't want to look like they have a developmental disability. This may not be tactful, but I have been around plenty of sighted people who say this to other sighted people. The term retarded is not a great way to describe people with cognitive disabilities, but the point, usually, is why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. For some, it is great than others. My highest functioning relative with MR has a high school comprehension level, which is pretty good. The lowest functioning relative I have is in his early forties and has the comprehension level of a pre-schooler. Again, whether it's right or wrong, do you wanted to be assumed to be low-functioning? I doubt it. And being blind isn't a culture. How can we argue that a particular disability is a culture, or even sub-culture, when, once again, we claim to be equal to others, we just can't see, and we live and grow up with customs, traditions and beliefs the same as those in our environment? Having a specific philosophy about blindness isn't the same as having a separate culture. We live, work and interact in the world; we just do things nonvisually. God, I'm tired of this whole blind vs. sight issue. We have the ability and potential to pursue whatever we want: education, employment, family, social life. It has nothing to do with being cookie-cutter replicas of sighted people; it's about claiming our equality and acting like normal, functioning people regardless of disability. To say that there's nothing wrong with certain behavior because it comes naturally to a person is just an excuse to not change it. We are not discussing alternative skill levels or how independent we are; we're talking about physical behavior that's not acceptable for anyone, sighted or blind alike. If people put a distinction on this behavior simply because of blindness, that mindset needs to be changed, but if we just say, "Hey, that's normal to that person, so they should be able to rock back and forth like a pendulum, or push against their eyes no matter the setting, or stand close enough to people that they're touching, because we just need to accept certain behavior and not associate, or connect, it to any other issue or disability," it sounds like an excuse to give up and not work on yourself as an individual. Don't give me the how people think and act around blind people. So what? If society lumps us in with other disabilities, or fail to understand our true abilities, so what; if we perpetuate the labels and distinctions and stereotypes, we don't get very far. It's not a disability specific thing regardless of what society thinks. And in my own personal experience, I've heard sighted people tell other sighted people the exact same things we're discussing in this thread. They may view it differently if discussing blind people, but nonetheless, they do and say the same things- not all, but many. So we should stop considering it a blind vs. sight issue. Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. If we told each other to conform to a particular thinking or personality or appearance, this would be a perfect example of saying we shouldn't have to follow one standard. We're talking about odd physical movements though that are out of place for most settings. Correcting this isn't conforming to society's standards or sighty's perspective; it's called being a human being, and whether blind or not, certain behavior and mannerisms should be corrected. It should be done gently, with love and not in a demeaning way, but corrected just the same. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 11 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:12:33 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: 16fc5414-d8f5-4814-a8f5-24b67d625da8 at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Bridgit, The difference in teaching the sighted to be appropriate versus the blind is that sighted kids are simply reminded not to do certain things or to do others. With the blind, it's not that simple. There are journal articles written about why we do what we do; these articles often proclaim that we have no or underdeveloped social skills and that the sighted must intervene lest we have no friends later on. You've even seen some of that here perpetuated by our own self-criticisms. When sighted kids are taught to be appropriate, they are told to be appropriate. When blind kids are taught to be appropriate, they are often told not to look like a blind person. it's no accident that our mannerisms are referred to as blindisms. Have you ever heard sighted mannerisms called sightedisms? And what about this notion of looking like a person with a cognitive disability? I've heard comments here like "we shouldn't look retarded because we're not." I am angry with this line of thought because it puts down people with disabilities in general as someone else here has pointed out some time ago. I've never heard comments like this when teaching sighted children to behave a certain way. Marc's right. This isn't just about teaching and learning appropriate behavior. This is about the age-old question every minority faces: assimilation or accommodation? Should we act like the majority or should we find a balance between our cultures and learn to adapt to each other? I prefer the latter myself. i believe in being congruent: I want to be who and what I am; this sometimes includes changing my behavior in some context because I want acceptance from others. In this process, I'm developing an inner meter that tells me when I need to do which, and that meter isn't calibrated to other people's meters because I find such a practice useless and utterly stressful. I'm learning to trust myself to come up with the best behavior for the situation because I am starting to believe I have the knowledge I need or have the resources to receive the knowledge I need in the current moment. Respectfully, Jedi _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From carlymih at earthlink.net Thu Nov 24 06:45:34 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:45:34 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Standing in line In-Reply-To: <4ECD5077.80700@gmail.com> References: <4ecc5302.042d2b0a.0f0a.2158SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4ECD5077.80700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111123224433.01e1cf18@earthlink.net> Hi, Jordan, Not I. No can on the back of someone's shoe, thing. Echo location works fine for me as well. for today, CarAM 11/23/2011, Jordyn Castor wrote: >Hey list, >I just wanted to add my perspective to this. I don't usually do the >cane on the shoe thing as it's just not my thing. lol :) When I'm >standing in line, I use echo location and can usually hear the >person standing in front of me, even if I'm not that close to them. >By hear, I mean hear the echoes, not like their voices or the sounds >of their shoes lol. If the people are talking, I ffollow their >voices as that works too. Sometimes, depending on what kind of line >I'm in, I start a conversation with the people in front of me. Just >throwing some more options out there. I'm curious though, do most of >you use the cane on the shoe method? >Jordyn >On 11/22/2011 8:55 PM, Jedi wrote: >>Vejas, >> >>The first thing to do is to consider the environment you're in. >>Take the cafeteria for example. Past experience tells you more or >>less where different stands may be located. So head in that general >>direction and listen for people talking, cashiers taking money, >>people taking orders, etc. When you get to the general area, find >>the first person you can and ask where the such-and-such line is. >>Next, get to the line and ask if the person you first make contact >>with is at the end of the line. You can also simply ask where the >>end of the line is located. once you get there, keep your cane in >>the pencil grip (holding it like a large pencil near the bottom of >>the handle or the top of the shaft) and keep the cane tip firmly >>pressed against the shoe of the person in front of you. They won't >>feel it. When the person moves, sweep the cane (using the pencil >>grip) in a semi-circle in front of you; keep the swing narrow as >>they can't have gone far. Keep stepping forward until you make >>contact when the shoe again and press the tip firmly against it. >>When I say "firm," I don't mean firm enough to bend the cane, but >>just firm enough to put a touch of pressure there. You will know >>you're at the front of the cue when you make contact with a counter >>or hear sounds suggesting you're nearing the spot where orders are >>taken and the like. >> >>Respectfully, >>Jedi >> >>Original message: >>>Hi, >>>I had a question about inganding in line properly. I am a >>>freshman and when I buy my own lunch, I have to figure out when >>>to move up front in the line. >>>Do any of you have any suggesttions for standing in line and >>>knowing when to move, as well as knowing when it's my turn? >>>Thanks. >>>Vejas >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>for nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 24 07:42:54 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 01:42:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How we appear to the sighted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's not just the opinions of the sighted. Sighted people do make assumptions and judgments visually, but we also form opinions and make preconceived ideas up nonvisually too, and we also will form opinions when people are described to us. So, for me anyway, it's not about what sighted people think, but what people think. Have a happy Thanksgiving all. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 30 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:09:06 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How we appear towards sighted Message-ID: 0354d5fd-c1cf-4706-b131-565ba4fe9acf at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Tara, I'm right with you there. For me, the bottom line is that it's up to each of us what we do and why; we shouldn't be doing one thing or another just to please others, especially if their opinion really doesn't matter anyway. And to tell you the truth, the opinions of most sighted people really don't matter, and this is the case whether you are blind or sighted. It seems to me, however, that we as a class tend to base a lot of our decisions regarding blindness on the opinions of the sighted who really haven't a clue what our experiences mean to us. I don't think that makes a lot of sense. Just saying. Respectfully, Jedi From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 14:57:36 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 09:57:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Standing in line In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111123224433.01e1cf18@earthlink.net> References: <4ecc5302.042d2b0a.0f0a.2158SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4ECD5077.80700@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20111123224433.01e1cf18@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I try not to tap the person in front of me, as I think it will sometimes be considered rude. People don't always understand the purpose of the cane. Usually, I use the other techniques you pointed out, Jordan. My echolocation is not very good, so I don't rely on that much, but I listen to the people talking or strike up a conversation myself. If they aren't interested in talking, I ask them to let me know when they move up. This has worked a number of times. They'll say "I'm moving up now." and I'll know how far they moved up by their footfall. My two cents worth, Jewel On 11/24/11, Carly wrote: > > Hi, Jordan, > > Not I. No can on the back of someone's shoe, thing. Echo location > works fine for me as well. > for today, > CarAM 11/23/2011, Jordyn Castor wrote: >>Hey list, >>I just wanted to add my perspective to this. I don't usually do the >>cane on the shoe thing as it's just not my thing. lol :) When I'm >>standing in line, I use echo location and can usually hear the >>person standing in front of me, even if I'm not that close to them. >>By hear, I mean hear the echoes, not like their voices or the sounds >>of their shoes lol. If the people are talking, I ffollow their >>voices as that works too. Sometimes, depending on what kind of line >>I'm in, I start a conversation with the people in front of me. Just >>throwing some more options out there. I'm curious though, do most of >>you use the cane on the shoe method? >>Jordyn >>On 11/22/2011 8:55 PM, Jedi wrote: >>>Vejas, >>> >>>The first thing to do is to consider the environment you're in. >>>Take the cafeteria for example. Past experience tells you more or >>>less where different stands may be located. So head in that general >>>direction and listen for people talking, cashiers taking money, >>>people taking orders, etc. When you get to the general area, find >>>the first person you can and ask where the such-and-such line is. >>>Next, get to the line and ask if the person you first make contact >>>with is at the end of the line. You can also simply ask where the >>>end of the line is located. once you get there, keep your cane in >>>the pencil grip (holding it like a large pencil near the bottom of >>>the handle or the top of the shaft) and keep the cane tip firmly >>>pressed against the shoe of the person in front of you. They won't >>>feel it. When the person moves, sweep the cane (using the pencil >>>grip) in a semi-circle in front of you; keep the swing narrow as >>>they can't have gone far. Keep stepping forward until you make >>>contact when the shoe again and press the tip firmly against it. >>>When I say "firm," I don't mean firm enough to bend the cane, but >>>just firm enough to put a touch of pressure there. You will know >>>you're at the front of the cue when you make contact with a counter >>>or hear sounds suggesting you're nearing the spot where orders are >>>taken and the like. >>> >>>Respectfully, >>>Jedi >>> >>>Original message: >>>>Hi, >>>>I had a question about inganding in line properly. I am a >>>>freshman and when I buy my own lunch, I have to figure out when >>>>to move up front in the line. >>>>Do any of you have any suggesttions for standing in line and >>>>knowing when to move, as well as knowing when it's my turn? >>>>Thanks. >>>>Vejas >>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>for nabs-l: >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 16:26:04 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 11:26:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabslinkaudio.org Site Will Launch Tonight Message-ID: <4ece704c.4263340a.0849.6e4b@mx.google.com> I agree, Peter! David, are you using the same Web hosting provider and/or archiving service for NABS as you use for your station? If so, the problem must be with that particular site, as your show archives page for Audio Access FM works great. Also, I notice that both sites' audio files are in M3U format. Would it make any difference if they were converted to Mp3? I appologize for my ignorance in this Web designing matter; I'm just throwing out observations and possible suggestions, from the perspective of somebody who knows absolutely nothing about this stuff! * Smile! Here's hoping that you have a wonderful Thanksgiving with your loved ones, everyone! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40s atx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 17:29:30 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:29:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] fw: [braillenote] KeyWord: Nemeth is indirectlysupportedfor Braille documents! Message-ID: <4ece7f29.4263340a.0849.7bf9@mx.google.com> I know he's talking about the Apex, with Keysoft 9.1 and Keysoft 9.2, but I'll check with him. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 P.S. The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Humberto Avila" Hi everyone, I'd just like to take this opportunity to wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving!!! I hope that you have a wonderful day filled with family, friends, and (how can we forget) good food! I'm at my grandparents' house right now, and am staying here for Thanksgiving dinner. Well, we had to go through the woods to get here; and with the rain and flooding we recently received here in Maryland, we may have needed to go over the river, as it were! * Smile! Yes, that's right... the stream here is over its banks! If anybody on these lists lives in the Maryland or central Pensylvania area, you will certainly know what I'm talking about. Anyway, happy Thanksgiving everyone! Hope it's a great day for all of you! Chris P.S. For anyone who is going out tomorrow morning for the Black Friday deals, good luck! I'm sure the cane or guide dog you take with you will certainly serve you well! "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 19:06:24 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:06:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] staring Message-ID: <4ece95df.8ab7340a.11cb.ffffafdd@mx.google.com> Hi Vejas, Ah, the staring game! I'm faced with this as well! Now, let me just say this; you are frustrated because your sighted parents aren't doing anything about it. However, if they're not doing something about it, can't you? I know that your parents would have to tell you that someone is staring, but you can take it from there! You can advocate for yourself; you can tell them to stop! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: vejas Wait, that doesn't even make sense! Walk in the middle of the street? That would just make it more dangerous, wouldn't it? Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: Icewolf wrote: I hate staring. People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know that they are doing it. I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder do these people even realize they are staring? Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%4 0gtwebdesign.us _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 19:14:25 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:14:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Speak to me Message-ID: <4ece97c0.4263340a.0849.ffff8b3a@mx.google.com> The honesty of a child! Love it! Good for your niece! I know, I hate when people do that! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" That's what I do! I wonder how guide dog users do this. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rania Ismail CMT" References: Message-ID: Bridgit wrote, why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled people not to look blind. why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. Ashley wrote, I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It makes us look worse. It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind person. I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look "retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be fighting against with respect to blindness. Bridgit wrote, Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? Ashley wrote, Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world that is better for everyone. I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. Cheers, Marc On 2011-11-23, at 7:49 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Um, I've heard plenty of sighted kids be told not to do certain behavior > because it's not "normal" or wrong. True, blind people often exhibit > certain behavior due to no one stepping up and helping them develop > social skills and behavior, which is a parents job. And it is the same > with sighted people. My mom is a teacher, and she says the exact same > thing about her sighted students as we're stating in this thread: it's > not to be insensitive or defamatory towards developmental disabilities, > but if you have no cognitive disability whatsoever, you don't want to > have people assume you also have some developmental issue. > > I have relatives with varying levels of developmental disabilities, a > couple rather severe. Some of them engage in the rocking, eye poking, > inappropriate expressions and mannerisms, just to mention a few. This > not only goes to show that what we term Blindism isn't specific to blind > people, it also shows why others assume a person exhibiting such > behavior may have a developmental disability. I'm not arguing what's > right or wrong- I'm simply stating the current reality. > > And I've heard plenty of, sighted and otherwise, kids be told they > don't want to look like they have a developmental disability. This may > not be tactful, but I have been around plenty of sighted people who say > this to other sighted people. The term retarded is not a great way to > describe people with cognitive disabilities, but the point, usually, is > why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? > Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why > give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind > people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones > society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental > disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. For some, it is great > than others. My highest functioning relative with MR has a high school > comprehension level, which is pretty good. The lowest functioning > relative I have is in his early forties and has the comprehension level > of a pre-schooler. Again, whether it's right or wrong, do you wanted to > be assumed to be low-functioning? I doubt it. > > And being blind isn't a culture. How can we argue that a particular > disability is a culture, or even sub-culture, when, once again, we claim > to be equal to others, we just can't see, and we live and grow up with > customs, traditions and beliefs the same as those in our environment? > Having a specific philosophy about blindness isn't the same as having a > separate culture. We live, work and interact in the world; we just do > things nonvisually. > > God, I'm tired of this whole blind vs. sight issue. We have the ability > and potential to pursue whatever we want: education, employment, family, > social life. It has nothing to do with being cookie-cutter replicas of > sighted people; it's about claiming our equality and acting like normal, > functioning people regardless of disability. To say that there's nothing > wrong with certain behavior because it comes naturally to a person is > just an excuse to not change it. We are not discussing alternative skill > levels or how independent we are; we're talking about physical behavior > that's not acceptable for anyone, sighted or blind alike. If people put > a distinction on this behavior simply because of blindness, that mindset > needs to be changed, but if we just say, "Hey, that's normal to that > person, so they should be able to rock back and forth like a pendulum, > or push against their eyes no matter the setting, or stand close enough > to people that they're touching, because we just need to accept certain > behavior and not associate, or connect, it to any other issue or > disability," it sounds like an excuse to give up and not work on > yourself as an individual. > > Don't give me the how people think and act around blind people. So what? > If society lumps us in with other disabilities, or fail to understand > our true abilities, so what; if we perpetuate the labels and > distinctions and stereotypes, we don't get very far. It's not a > disability specific thing regardless of what society thinks. And in my > own personal experience, I've heard sighted people tell other sighted > people the exact same things we're discussing in this thread. They may > view it differently if discussing blind people, but nonetheless, they do > and say the same things- not all, but many. So we should stop > considering it a blind vs. sight issue. > > Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not > appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. If > we told each other to conform to a particular thinking or personality or > appearance, this would be a perfect example of saying we shouldn't have > to follow one standard. We're talking about odd physical movements > though that are out of place for most settings. Correcting this isn't > conforming to society's standards or sighty's perspective; it's called > being a human being, and whether blind or not, certain behavior and > mannerisms should be corrected. It should be done gently, with love and > not in a demeaning way, but corrected just the same. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > > > Message: 11 > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:12:33 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > Message-ID: 16fc5414-d8f5-4814-a8f5-24b67d625da8 at samobile.net > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > Bridgit, > > The difference in teaching the sighted to be appropriate versus the > blind is that sighted kids are simply reminded not to do certain things > or to do others. With the blind, it's not that simple. There are > journal articles written about why we do what we do; these articles > often proclaim that we have no or underdeveloped social skills and that > the sighted must intervene lest we have no friends later on. You've > even seen some of that here perpetuated by our own self-criticisms. > When sighted kids are taught to be appropriate, they are told to be > appropriate. When blind kids are taught to be appropriate, they are > often told not to look like a blind person. it's no accident that our > mannerisms are referred to as blindisms. Have you ever heard sighted > mannerisms called sightedisms? And what about this notion of looking > like a person with a cognitive disability? I've heard comments here > like "we shouldn't look retarded because we're not." I am angry with > this line of thought because it puts down people with disabilities in > general as someone else here has pointed out some time ago. I've never > heard comments like this when teaching sighted children to behave a > certain way. > > Marc's right. This isn't just about teaching and learning appropriate > behavior. This is about the age-old question every minority faces: > assimilation or accommodation? Should we act like the majority or > should we find a balance between our cultures and learn to adapt to > each other? I prefer the latter myself. i believe in being congruent: I > want to be who and what I am; this sometimes includes changing my > behavior in some context because I want acceptance from others. In this > process, I'm developing an inner meter that tells me when I need to do > which, and that meter isn't calibrated to other people's meters because > I find such a practice useless and utterly stressful. I'm learning to > trust myself to come up with the best behavior for the situation > because I am starting to believe I have the knowledge I need or have > the resources to receive the knowledge I need in the current moment. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 21:46:46 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:46:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bridgit, Do you happen to remember who wrote the study about the blind student masturbating during class? I'd be curious to know if it was actually verified that the reason he did this is because no one had ever told him that he shouldn't do it. It's definitely possible, but it's also possible that he knew he shouldn't do it but still ended up doing it for a different reason. Perhaps he had a sexual compulsion (unrelated to blindness) that made it very hard for him to not masturbate no matter how hard he tried. Or, it's possible that he knew he "shouldn't" do it or that other kids didn't do it, but that he wasn't motivated to stop, figuring "the teacher's blind, what's the difference?" My point is that I think whenever a blind person displays any kind of non-normative behavior, it's assumed they just "don't know any better" but that's just one of several possible reasons. As I've stated before, in order for anyone to modify their behavior they have to (a) know what the desired behavior is, (b) actually be motivated to change to conform to the norms, and (c) have the ability (self-awareness, self-control, etc.) to do so. In the case of blindisms, I would submit that most cases of blindisms do not result from mere lack of knowledge, but from either lack of motivation, lack of ability, or both. I have talked to so many blind teens and adults over the years who have complained that they really want to stop rocking or eye-poking but just can't because they aren't aware that it is happening. I have also talked to a few blind people who know that sighted people don't do those things, but still choose to do them (active nonconformity, like my adolescent approach to fashion that I mentioned earlier). I think when people assume any atypical behavior of the blind stems from merely not knowing what the norms are, we neglect the more complex aspects of the issue. Best, Arielle On 11/24/11, Marc Workman wrote: > Bridgit wrote, > why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? > Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why > give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind > people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones > society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental > disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. > > Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually disabled > person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled people not to > look blind. > > why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? > Most people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually > disabled people; why > give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is intellectually > disabled > people, who are just intellectually disabled, have no barriers other than > the ones > society, and themselves, put in our path. People who are blind have an > actual sight limitation. > > Ashley wrote, > I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because it > looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. Why > have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It makes us > look worse. > > It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively > delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that rocking, > you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively disabled, and you > don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind person. > > I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look "retarded", > and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, is incredibly > ironic considering that it expresses the same negative attitudes towards > intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be fighting against with > respect to blindness. > > Bridgit wrote, > Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not > appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. > > What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it decided? > Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it this thing > called society that decides? Does not what is considered appropriate change > over time? So how does it change? There was a time when it was considered > inappropriate for women and African Americans to talk back to white men. It > seems obvious to me that what is considered to be appropriate changes over > time and that this change occurs because people challenge attitudes. Is it > not at least possible that some of the behaviours that we've been discussing > are like some of the attitudes about women and minorities that have been > challenged and changed? > > Ashley wrote, > Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of your > blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. > > I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not > mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers me. > I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness that > bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, as weird, > as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with these attitudes > is to train blind people to look and act like most people look and act. A > second way is to educate people, to teach them that blindness may lead to > looking and acting differently, but that this is not bad, ugly, weird, > abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of course the harder one. It's much > easier to change the minority than the majority. I believe, though, that > the latter path leads to the world that is better for everyone. > > I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada celebrated > it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you Americans, I hope > you're enjoying the holiday. > > Cheers, > > Marc > On 2011-11-23, at 7:49 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > >> Um, I've heard plenty of sighted kids be told not to do certain behavior >> because it's not "normal" or wrong. True, blind people often exhibit >> certain behavior due to no one stepping up and helping them develop >> social skills and behavior, which is a parents job. And it is the same >> with sighted people. My mom is a teacher, and she says the exact same >> thing about her sighted students as we're stating in this thread: it's >> not to be insensitive or defamatory towards developmental disabilities, >> but if you have no cognitive disability whatsoever, you don't want to >> have people assume you also have some developmental issue. >> >> I have relatives with varying levels of developmental disabilities, a >> couple rather severe. Some of them engage in the rocking, eye poking, >> inappropriate expressions and mannerisms, just to mention a few. This >> not only goes to show that what we term Blindism isn't specific to blind >> people, it also shows why others assume a person exhibiting such >> behavior may have a developmental disability. I'm not arguing what's >> right or wrong- I'm simply stating the current reality. >> >> And I've heard plenty of, sighted and otherwise, kids be told they >> don't want to look like they have a developmental disability. This may >> not be tactful, but I have been around plenty of sighted people who say >> this to other sighted people. The term retarded is not a great way to >> describe people with cognitive disabilities, but the point, usually, is >> why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >> Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >> people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >> society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >> disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. For some, it is great >> than others. My highest functioning relative with MR has a high school >> comprehension level, which is pretty good. The lowest functioning >> relative I have is in his early forties and has the comprehension level >> of a pre-schooler. Again, whether it's right or wrong, do you wanted to >> be assumed to be low-functioning? I doubt it. >> >> And being blind isn't a culture. How can we argue that a particular >> disability is a culture, or even sub-culture, when, once again, we claim >> to be equal to others, we just can't see, and we live and grow up with >> customs, traditions and beliefs the same as those in our environment? >> Having a specific philosophy about blindness isn't the same as having a >> separate culture. We live, work and interact in the world; we just do >> things nonvisually. >> >> God, I'm tired of this whole blind vs. sight issue. We have the ability >> and potential to pursue whatever we want: education, employment, family, >> social life. It has nothing to do with being cookie-cutter replicas of >> sighted people; it's about claiming our equality and acting like normal, >> functioning people regardless of disability. To say that there's nothing >> wrong with certain behavior because it comes naturally to a person is >> just an excuse to not change it. We are not discussing alternative skill >> levels or how independent we are; we're talking about physical behavior >> that's not acceptable for anyone, sighted or blind alike. If people put >> a distinction on this behavior simply because of blindness, that mindset >> needs to be changed, but if we just say, "Hey, that's normal to that >> person, so they should be able to rock back and forth like a pendulum, >> or push against their eyes no matter the setting, or stand close enough >> to people that they're touching, because we just need to accept certain >> behavior and not associate, or connect, it to any other issue or >> disability," it sounds like an excuse to give up and not work on >> yourself as an individual. >> >> Don't give me the how people think and act around blind people. So what? >> If society lumps us in with other disabilities, or fail to understand >> our true abilities, so what; if we perpetuate the labels and >> distinctions and stereotypes, we don't get very far. It's not a >> disability specific thing regardless of what society thinks. And in my >> own personal experience, I've heard sighted people tell other sighted >> people the exact same things we're discussing in this thread. They may >> view it differently if discussing blind people, but nonetheless, they do >> and say the same things- not all, but many. So we should stop >> considering it a blind vs. sight issue. >> >> Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >> appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. If >> we told each other to conform to a particular thinking or personality or >> appearance, this would be a perfect example of saying we shouldn't have >> to follow one standard. We're talking about odd physical movements >> though that are out of place for most settings. Correcting this isn't >> conforming to society's standards or sighty's perspective; it's called >> being a human being, and whether blind or not, certain behavior and >> mannerisms should be corrected. It should be done gently, with love and >> not in a demeaning way, but corrected just the same. >> >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >> >> >> Message: 11 >> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:12:33 -0500 >> From: Jedi >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> Message-ID: 16fc5414-d8f5-4814-a8f5-24b67d625da8 at samobile.net >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" >> >> Bridgit, >> >> The difference in teaching the sighted to be appropriate versus the >> blind is that sighted kids are simply reminded not to do certain things >> or to do others. With the blind, it's not that simple. There are >> journal articles written about why we do what we do; these articles >> often proclaim that we have no or underdeveloped social skills and that >> the sighted must intervene lest we have no friends later on. You've >> even seen some of that here perpetuated by our own self-criticisms. >> When sighted kids are taught to be appropriate, they are told to be >> appropriate. When blind kids are taught to be appropriate, they are >> often told not to look like a blind person. it's no accident that our >> mannerisms are referred to as blindisms. Have you ever heard sighted >> mannerisms called sightedisms? And what about this notion of looking >> like a person with a cognitive disability? I've heard comments here >> like "we shouldn't look retarded because we're not." I am angry with >> this line of thought because it puts down people with disabilities in >> general as someone else here has pointed out some time ago. I've never >> heard comments like this when teaching sighted children to behave a >> certain way. >> >> Marc's right. This isn't just about teaching and learning appropriate >> behavior. This is about the age-old question every minority faces: >> assimilation or accommodation? Should we act like the majority or >> should we find a balance between our cultures and learn to adapt to >> each other? I prefer the latter myself. i believe in being congruent: I >> want to be who and what I am; this sometimes includes changing my >> behavior in some context because I want acceptance from others. In this >> process, I'm developing an inner meter that tells me when I need to do >> which, and that meter isn't calibrated to other people's meters because >> I find such a practice useless and utterly stressful. I'm learning to >> trust myself to come up with the best behavior for the situation >> because I am starting to believe I have the knowledge I need or have >> the resources to receive the knowledge I need in the current moment. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 24 22:13:09 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 17:13:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arielle, Good point. For blindisms, I took years to stop rocking and still do it ocasionally; its not that I want to do it in public, but I'm unaware of it until someone usually a family member points it out. It seldom happens now. Sometimes if I feel like rocking or doing something qwerky, I just wait and do it in the privacy of my home. It is hard to immitate what sighted people do if we cannot see it and sometimes behaviors come out unconsciously. I think we should try our best, but if we're not aware of something and when we're out alone, and are thinking of a million other things, we probably shouldn't feel too guilty. When I rock its when I'm moving, maybe for balance or something, but not when I'm sitting down. Fortunately, most evaluative situations occur when one is sitting or standing. For instance, presentations, interviews, taking exams, even being in class. So its not too much of an issue there. Sadly though, due to low expectations, I'd contend that a lot of blind people simply don't know what is socially appropriate since no one taught them in a way they can learn. Sighted children learn starting as infants what is right and wrong; as toddlers they learn even more once they understand language. If a blind kid doesn't have this information, they will not know what is so called normal. As adults, we can pick how to behave, but to make a informed decision, we need to know what everyone else is doing. Its hard to get that info without asking. I remember asking my coworkers quietly about breaks, if we could get personal calls at work, what the dress expectations were, etc. It was harder for me to know this by just observing. With that info, I could conform to the atmosphere. Obviously we still retained our individual identity, but there are unspoken rules in any group setting such as work. You're so right that information isn't enough. We also have to be 1. motivated to include that behavior in our life to conform and 2. have the ability to do it. I can understand why Bridgit feels passionate about this; she was sighted most of her life. I like that idea of taking an etiquette class and might do that in the near future. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 4:46 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Hi Bridgit, Do you happen to remember who wrote the study about the blind student masturbating during class? I'd be curious to know if it was actually verified that the reason he did this is because no one had ever told him that he shouldn't do it. It's definitely possible, but it's also possible that he knew he shouldn't do it but still ended up doing it for a different reason. Perhaps he had a sexual compulsion (unrelated to blindness) that made it very hard for him to not masturbate no matter how hard he tried. Or, it's possible that he knew he "shouldn't" do it or that other kids didn't do it, but that he wasn't motivated to stop, figuring "the teacher's blind, what's the difference?" My point is that I think whenever a blind person displays any kind of non-normative behavior, it's assumed they just "don't know any better" but that's just one of several possible reasons. As I've stated before, in order for anyone to modify their behavior they have to (a) know what the desired behavior is, (b) actually be motivated to change to conform to the norms, and (c) have the ability (self-awareness, self-control, etc.) to do so. In the case of blindisms, I would submit that most cases of blindisms do not result from mere lack of knowledge, but from either lack of motivation, lack of ability, or both. I have talked to so many blind teens and adults over the years who have complained that they really want to stop rocking or eye-poking but just can't because they aren't aware that it is happening. I have also talked to a few blind people who know that sighted people don't do those things, but still choose to do them (active nonconformity, like my adolescent approach to fashion that I mentioned earlier). I think when people assume any atypical behavior of the blind stems from merely not knowing what the norms are, we neglect the more complex aspects of the issue. Best, Arielle On 11/24/11, Marc Workman wrote: > Bridgit wrote, > why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? > Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why > give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind > people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones > society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental > disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. > > Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually disabled > person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled people not > to > look blind. > > why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? > Most people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually > disabled people; why > give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is > intellectually > disabled > people, who are just intellectually disabled, have no barriers other than > the ones > society, and themselves, put in our path. People who are blind have an > actual sight limitation. > > Ashley wrote, > I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because it > looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. Why > have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It makes us > look worse. > > It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively > delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that rocking, > you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively disabled, and > you > don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind person. > > I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look "retarded", > and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, is incredibly > ironic considering that it expresses the same negative attitudes towards > intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be fighting against > with > respect to blindness. > > Bridgit wrote, > Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not > appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. > > What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it decided? > Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it this thing > called society that decides? Does not what is considered appropriate > change > over time? So how does it change? There was a time when it was considered > inappropriate for women and African Americans to talk back to white men. > It > seems obvious to me that what is considered to be appropriate changes over > time and that this change occurs because people challenge attitudes. Is > it > not at least possible that some of the behaviours that we've been > discussing > are like some of the attitudes about women and minorities that have been > challenged and changed? > > Ashley wrote, > Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of > your > blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. > > I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not > mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers me. > I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness that > bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, as > weird, > as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with these > attitudes > is to train blind people to look and act like most people look and act. A > second way is to educate people, to teach them that blindness may lead to > looking and acting differently, but that this is not bad, ugly, weird, > abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of course the harder one. It's > much > easier to change the minority than the majority. I believe, though, that > the latter path leads to the world that is better for everyone. > > I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada celebrated > it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you Americans, I hope > you're enjoying the holiday. > > Cheers, > > Marc > On 2011-11-23, at 7:49 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > >> Um, I've heard plenty of sighted kids be told not to do certain behavior >> because it's not "normal" or wrong. True, blind people often exhibit >> certain behavior due to no one stepping up and helping them develop >> social skills and behavior, which is a parents job. And it is the same >> with sighted people. My mom is a teacher, and she says the exact same >> thing about her sighted students as we're stating in this thread: it's >> not to be insensitive or defamatory towards developmental disabilities, >> but if you have no cognitive disability whatsoever, you don't want to >> have people assume you also have some developmental issue. >> >> I have relatives with varying levels of developmental disabilities, a >> couple rather severe. Some of them engage in the rocking, eye poking, >> inappropriate expressions and mannerisms, just to mention a few. This >> not only goes to show that what we term Blindism isn't specific to blind >> people, it also shows why others assume a person exhibiting such >> behavior may have a developmental disability. I'm not arguing what's >> right or wrong- I'm simply stating the current reality. >> >> And I've heard plenty of, sighted and otherwise, kids be told they >> don't want to look like they have a developmental disability. This may >> not be tactful, but I have been around plenty of sighted people who say >> this to other sighted people. The term retarded is not a great way to >> describe people with cognitive disabilities, but the point, usually, is >> why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >> Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >> people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >> society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >> disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. For some, it is great >> than others. My highest functioning relative with MR has a high school >> comprehension level, which is pretty good. The lowest functioning >> relative I have is in his early forties and has the comprehension level >> of a pre-schooler. Again, whether it's right or wrong, do you wanted to >> be assumed to be low-functioning? I doubt it. >> >> And being blind isn't a culture. How can we argue that a particular >> disability is a culture, or even sub-culture, when, once again, we claim >> to be equal to others, we just can't see, and we live and grow up with >> customs, traditions and beliefs the same as those in our environment? >> Having a specific philosophy about blindness isn't the same as having a >> separate culture. We live, work and interact in the world; we just do >> things nonvisually. >> >> God, I'm tired of this whole blind vs. sight issue. We have the ability >> and potential to pursue whatever we want: education, employment, family, >> social life. It has nothing to do with being cookie-cutter replicas of >> sighted people; it's about claiming our equality and acting like normal, >> functioning people regardless of disability. To say that there's nothing >> wrong with certain behavior because it comes naturally to a person is >> just an excuse to not change it. We are not discussing alternative skill >> levels or how independent we are; we're talking about physical behavior >> that's not acceptable for anyone, sighted or blind alike. If people put >> a distinction on this behavior simply because of blindness, that mindset >> needs to be changed, but if we just say, "Hey, that's normal to that >> person, so they should be able to rock back and forth like a pendulum, >> or push against their eyes no matter the setting, or stand close enough >> to people that they're touching, because we just need to accept certain >> behavior and not associate, or connect, it to any other issue or >> disability," it sounds like an excuse to give up and not work on >> yourself as an individual. >> >> Don't give me the how people think and act around blind people. So what? >> If society lumps us in with other disabilities, or fail to understand >> our true abilities, so what; if we perpetuate the labels and >> distinctions and stereotypes, we don't get very far. It's not a >> disability specific thing regardless of what society thinks. And in my >> own personal experience, I've heard sighted people tell other sighted >> people the exact same things we're discussing in this thread. They may >> view it differently if discussing blind people, but nonetheless, they do >> and say the same things- not all, but many. So we should stop >> considering it a blind vs. sight issue. >> >> Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >> appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. If >> we told each other to conform to a particular thinking or personality or >> appearance, this would be a perfect example of saying we shouldn't have >> to follow one standard. We're talking about odd physical movements >> though that are out of place for most settings. Correcting this isn't >> conforming to society's standards or sighty's perspective; it's called >> being a human being, and whether blind or not, certain behavior and >> mannerisms should be corrected. It should be done gently, with love and >> not in a demeaning way, but corrected just the same. >> >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >> >> >> Message: 11 >> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:12:33 -0500 >> From: Jedi >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> Message-ID: 16fc5414-d8f5-4814-a8f5-24b67d625da8 at samobile.net >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" >> >> Bridgit, >> >> The difference in teaching the sighted to be appropriate versus the >> blind is that sighted kids are simply reminded not to do certain things >> or to do others. With the blind, it's not that simple. There are >> journal articles written about why we do what we do; these articles >> often proclaim that we have no or underdeveloped social skills and that >> the sighted must intervene lest we have no friends later on. You've >> even seen some of that here perpetuated by our own self-criticisms. >> When sighted kids are taught to be appropriate, they are told to be >> appropriate. When blind kids are taught to be appropriate, they are >> often told not to look like a blind person. it's no accident that our >> mannerisms are referred to as blindisms. Have you ever heard sighted >> mannerisms called sightedisms? And what about this notion of looking >> like a person with a cognitive disability? I've heard comments here >> like "we shouldn't look retarded because we're not." I am angry with >> this line of thought because it puts down people with disabilities in >> general as someone else here has pointed out some time ago. I've never >> heard comments like this when teaching sighted children to behave a >> certain way. >> >> Marc's right. This isn't just about teaching and learning appropriate >> behavior. This is about the age-old question every minority faces: >> assimilation or accommodation? Should we act like the majority or >> should we find a balance between our cultures and learn to adapt to >> each other? I prefer the latter myself. i believe in being congruent: I >> want to be who and what I am; this sometimes includes changing my >> behavior in some context because I want acceptance from others. In this >> process, I'm developing an inner meter that tells me when I need to do >> which, and that meter isn't calibrated to other people's meters because >> I find such a practice useless and utterly stressful. I'm learning to >> trust myself to come up with the best behavior for the situation >> because I am starting to believe I have the knowledge I need or have >> the resources to receive the knowledge I need in the current moment. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 22:47:58 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 15:47:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minorities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point Bridgit. But, then why can we use our hands for non-sticky things like fries and sandwiches? Wouldn't that carry the same health risks as eating spaghetti with our hands and then washing hands afterward to wash off the sticky stuff? I know I'm getting a little pedantic here, but just saying that before we assume social norms must be followed by everyone, it's worth considering what their real purpose is. Best, Arielle On 11/21/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > This, to me, seems like the thread has strayed into the almost absurd, > smile. Though eating with one's hands is done in some cultures, it's > best to remember that these cultures often use some kind of flat bread > as a utensil of sorts. They're usually not eating everything with their > hands, but are holding another food item in which to scoop food up with. > > We also have to consider how hygenic this is. Even after washing hands, > we continue to touch objects. Eating food with our hands could lead to > health-related issues. > > Not to mention the mess, grin! > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 17 > Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:24:33 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Sean, > I believe eating with one's hands is more common than using silverware > in some cultures. So, eating with silverware is another example of a > norm that is culturally constructed but is largely arbitrary, and as far > as I know, eating with one's hands never harms anyone. I fail to see why > eating with the hands would be discouraged in an "ideal" society, unless > you are arguing that an "ideal" society is one in which people always > conform to common standards, and I think Marc is arguing the opposite > point. I think expecting blind people to conform to sighted norms is > similar to expecting someone from a culture where eating is done with > the hands to use a fork and spoon. There is definitely merit to both > sides of this larger issue, but the issue of whether or not to expect > conformity in general strays from the blindness realm. > >From a pragmatic perspective, I think it is beneficial to give blind > children as many tools as possible to attain success and acceptance, > including information about how the sighted majority behaves and what > they expect. As blind children grow into adulthood, they can make their > own choices about how much they want to conform and satisfy the > expectations of others versus maintaining their individual identities. > This is a balance that all people deal with, sighted and blind. Best, > Arielle > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 24 23:41:19 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 18:41:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minorities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F46D9EC6AA340C5822CB121F6108E78@OwnerPC> the finger foods we use should be done carefully. Its greasy, messy food usually. I'ts so easy to spill crumbs or ketchup or something on you; I've done such a thing too often with sandwiches, chicken strips and fries. Wash hands before and after eating. As to health risk, I don't know; maybe it would be as unhealthy to eat with hands a typical meal as sandwiches. Anyway besides being inappropriate its very messy and not practical. As Bridgit said those cultures promoting hands to eat usually use something with it and I think they use a few fingers or cup their hand a certain way. And not all food is eaten with hands. They use spoons for food that is more liquidy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 5:47 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minorities Good point Bridgit. But, then why can we use our hands for non-sticky things like fries and sandwiches? Wouldn't that carry the same health risks as eating spaghetti with our hands and then washing hands afterward to wash off the sticky stuff? I know I'm getting a little pedantic here, but just saying that before we assume social norms must be followed by everyone, it's worth considering what their real purpose is. Best, Arielle On 11/21/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > This, to me, seems like the thread has strayed into the almost absurd, > smile. Though eating with one's hands is done in some cultures, it's > best to remember that these cultures often use some kind of flat bread > as a utensil of sorts. They're usually not eating everything with their > hands, but are holding another food item in which to scoop food up with. > > We also have to consider how hygenic this is. Even after washing hands, > we continue to touch objects. Eating food with our hands could lead to > health-related issues. > > Not to mention the mess, grin! > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 17 > Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:24:33 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Sean, > I believe eating with one's hands is more common than using silverware > in some cultures. So, eating with silverware is another example of a > norm that is culturally constructed but is largely arbitrary, and as far > as I know, eating with one's hands never harms anyone. I fail to see why > eating with the hands would be discouraged in an "ideal" society, unless > you are arguing that an "ideal" society is one in which people always > conform to common standards, and I think Marc is arguing the opposite > point. I think expecting blind people to conform to sighted norms is > similar to expecting someone from a culture where eating is done with > the hands to use a fork and spoon. There is definitely merit to both > sides of this larger issue, but the issue of whether or not to expect > conformity in general strays from the blindness realm. > >From a pragmatic perspective, I think it is beneficial to give blind > children as many tools as possible to attain success and acceptance, > including information about how the sighted majority behaves and what > they expect. As blind children grow into adulthood, they can make their > own choices about how much they want to conform and satisfy the > expectations of others versus maintaining their individual identities. > This is a balance that all people deal with, sighted and blind. Best, > Arielle > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From carlymih at earthlink.net Fri Nov 25 00:21:10 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 16:21:10 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] staring In-Reply-To: <4ece95df.8ab7340a.11cb.ffffafdd@mx.google.com> References: <4ece95df.8ab7340a.11cb.ffffafdd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111124161830.01cdbc30@earthlink.net> Good afternoon, Chris, I don't believe the act of Staring is inherently bad. Don't you think it wise to allow any misconseptons about blindness to be demystified? At 11:06 AM 11/24/2011, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >Hi Vejas, > >Ah, the staring game! I'm faced with this as well! Now, let me just >say this; you are frustrated because your sighted parents aren't >doing anything about it. However, if they're not doing something >about it, can't you? I know that your parents would have to tell you >that someone is staring, but you can take it from there! You can >advocate for yourself; you can tell them to stop! > >Chris > >"The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The >real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that >exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, >blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." >-- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 > >The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in >Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive >technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them >be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the >Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! > >----- Original Message ----- >From: vejas To: National Association of Blind Students mailing listDate sent: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 10:54:40 -0800 >Subject: [nabs-l] staring > >I hate staring. >People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know >that they are doing it. >I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are >staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me >that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. >What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing >anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder >do these people even realize they are staring? >Vejas > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >m%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From kevinchao89 at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 03:32:10 2011 From: kevinchao89 at gmail.com (Kevin Chao) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 21:32:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! Message-ID: http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for production use and is recommended for most users. Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language switching when reading documents with appropriate language information; support for 64 bit Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse mode in Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and freezes; and initial fixes for Windows 8. Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: •Updated documentation. •Updated translations. From kevinchao89 at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 03:43:31 2011 From: kevinchao89 at gmail.com (Kevin Chao) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 21:43:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And, there's one more thing: •Basic support for Design Science MathPlayer. Kevin On 11/24/11, Kevin Chao wrote: > http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released > NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. > This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for > production use and is recommended for most users. > Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language switching > when reading documents with appropriate language information; support > for 64 bit Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in > browse mode in Mozilla applications; better handling of application > crashes and freezes; and initial fixes for Windows 8. > Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: > •Updated documentation. > •Updated translations. > From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 07:28:35 2011 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 23:28:35 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA> Thanks for sharing. I will download now. I use JAWS, but this has been my temporary screen reader in case something goes wrong. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Chao Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:32 PM To: kevinchao89 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for production use and is recommended for most users. Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language switching when reading documents with appropriate language information; support for 64 bit Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse mode in Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and freezes; and initial fixes for Windows 8. Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: .Updated documentation. .Updated translations. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From kevinchao89 at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 07:39:43 2011 From: kevinchao89 at gmail.com (Kevin Chao) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 01:39:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! In-Reply-To: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA> References: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA> Message-ID: I use NVDA as my primary/main screen reader. There once was a time when I did use JAWS, but it's been over a year, and I'm very glad that I've stopped using it, and am using NVDA full-time. It's extremely fast, accurate, reliable, innovative, non-intrusive, free, has a portable version making any Windows PC in the world accessible, and developed by blind people. Kevin On 11/25/11, Humberto Avila wrote: > Thanks for sharing. I will download now. I use JAWS, but this has been my > temporary screen reader in case something goes wrong. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kevin Chao > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:32 PM > To: kevinchao89 > Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! > > http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released > NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. > This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for > production use and is recommended for most users. > Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language switching when > reading documents with appropriate language information; support for 64 bit > Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse mode in > Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and freezes; > and initial fixes for Windows 8. > Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: > .Updated documentation. > .Updated translations. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > From carlymih at earthlink.net Fri Nov 25 13:31:35 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 05:31:35 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! In-Reply-To: References: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125052746.01cdbc30@earthlink.net> Good morning, Kevin, What are the specifics, of using NVDA? There are times I need WindowEyes but it is problematic IE not my machine so NVDA, would be perfect. for today, Car11:39 PM 11/24/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: >I use NVDA as my primary/main screen reader. There once was a time >when I did use JAWS, but it's been over a year, and I'm very glad that >I've stopped using it, and am using NVDA full-time. It's extremely >fast, accurate, reliable, innovative, non-intrusive, free, has a >portable version making any Windows PC in the world accessible, and >developed by blind people. > >Kevin > >On 11/25/11, Humberto Avila wrote: > > Thanks for sharing. I will download now. I use JAWS, but this has been my > > temporary screen reader in case something goes wrong. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > > Of Kevin Chao > > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:32 PM > > To: kevinchao89 > > Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! > > > > http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released > > NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. > > This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for > > production use and is recommended for most users. > > Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language switching when > > reading documents with appropriate language information; support for 64 bit > > Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse mode in > > Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and freezes; > > and initial fixes for Windows 8. > > Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: > > .Updated documentation. > > .Updated translations. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 17:22:39 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 12:22:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Message-ID: <4ecfcf10.a270340a.4461.ffffcaa2@mx.google.com> Hi=20Amy, Just=20FYI=20(for=20Ashley=20mainly,)=20you=20don't=20need=20to=20retrofit= =20the=20 Haven=20with=20MobileSpeak=20if=20you=20don't=20want=20to,=20as=20the=20pho= ne=20already=20 comes=20with=20speech.=20=20But=20a=20lot=20of=20people=20like=20MobileSpea= k,=20because=20 (I=20think)=20it=20uses=20Eloquence,=20which=20is=20the=20same=20speech=20u= sed=20for=20 JAWS.=20=20I=20may=20be=20confused=20here;=20is=20Mobile=20Speak=20the=20on= e=20that=20uses=20 Eloquence=20and=20Talks=20uses=20DecTalk,=20or=20the=20other=20way=20around= ?=20 Thanks! Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 =20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually=20impa= ired=20youth=20 in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through=20provi= ding=20 assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and=20convention= s=20 which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20peers.=20=20For= =20more=20 information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20our=20work,=20= visit=20 us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Amy=20Sabo"=20 Right on, Loren! Let's be a part of the solution; not the problem! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loren Wakefield" References: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125052746.01cdbc30@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi Carly NVDA has a portable version, which allows you to have your TTS/settings, and entire screen reader with you to connect to any Windows PC in the world and make it accessible. I use this a lot, such as at library, tech lab, school, various other places, where there are computers. It’s extremely incredible and amazing that it’s possible to walk up to any Windows PC and use it. Kevin On 11/25/11, Carly wrote: > Good morning, Kevin, > > What are the specifics, of using NVDA? There are times I > need WindowEyes but it is problematic IE not my machine so NVDA, > would be perfect. > for today, > Car11:39 PM 11/24/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: >>I use NVDA as my primary/main screen reader. There once was a time >>when I did use JAWS, but it's been over a year, and I'm very glad that >>I've stopped using it, and am using NVDA full-time. It's extremely >>fast, accurate, reliable, innovative, non-intrusive, free, has a >>portable version making any Windows PC in the world accessible, and >>developed by blind people. >> >>Kevin >> >>On 11/25/11, Humberto Avila wrote: >> > Thanks for sharing. I will download now. I use JAWS, but this has been >> > my >> > temporary screen reader in case something goes wrong. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> > Of Kevin Chao >> > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:32 PM >> > To: kevinchao89 >> > Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! >> > >> > http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released >> > NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. >> > This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for >> > production use and is recommended for most users. >> > Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language switching >> > when >> > reading documents with appropriate language information; support for 64 >> > bit >> > Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse mode >> > in >> > Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and >> > freezes; >> > and initial fixes for Windows 8. >> > Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: >> > .Updated documentation. >> > .Updated translations. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >> > mail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri Nov 25 21:36:43 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 15:36:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Staring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hate it when people stare in a very blatant manner; it's so rude. I think, however, we need to be careful of how, what and when we choose to address a person, or persons, staring at us. We don't know exactly why they're staring, nor can we officially determine that they are staring at us. Even with sight, you never know these answers. If in an extremely close proximity, it's easier to determine, but you can't say for sure, blind or sighted, if a person is staring because they find you attractive, or they may be staring off into space just thinking, and it appears as though they're staring at you, or some people just like to people watch. As a sighted person, it can be interesting to sit back and observe various people; I use to do it, and I know quite a few people who do it. Of course, there are times when it's pretty clear why people are staring, but I just think we need to tread carefully when it comes to this. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 2 Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:06:24 -0500 From: Chris Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] staring Message-ID: <4ece95df.8ab7340a.11cb.ffffafdd at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Vejas, Ah, the staring game! I'm faced with this as well! Now, let me just say this; you are frustrated because your sighted parents aren't doing anything about it. However, if they're not doing something about it, can't you? I know that your parents would have to tell you that someone is staring, but you can take it from there! You can advocate for yourself; you can tell them to stop! Chris From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri Nov 25 22:20:51 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:20:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arielle, I agree that we are quick to assume we know why a person does what they do; for anyone, there a lot of variables that can contribute to, or lead to, certain behavior. In the instance of the case with the boy who masterbated, I can only say what information I read about. It was like four years ago that I wrote the paper, and I'm not sure if I ended up using that particular source, but I still have the paper somewhere and can check. I believe the boy lived in Florida. Based on what I remember, the teacher working with this student, who was also blind, explained that the boy wasn't aware of how sight worked- this is completely a layman's definition based on my memory of the case. Obviously, chronic, not to mention public, masturbation for anyone is symptomatic of a sexual compulsion. Though you boys are so icky in this regard, j/k, smile, chronic masturbation, blind, sighted, male, female, is not appropriate behavior around others. With this case, I believe, the reasoning he did it in public was, based on the foundings of his teacher who was blind, because he wasn't aware that others could see him. It's unfortunate that many attribute every little thing we do to our blindness. If my sighted friend trips, it's because they're not paying attention, but if I trip, it's all credited to my blindness. We never get to just be people. Having been sighted for 22 years and only blind for eight, this has been the most difficult adjustment. I agree we need to be careful about how and why we attribute behavior to a person. When blind, for instance, we can't assume everything is just due to blindness. I had a doctor go through my med list during a visit years ago, and they asked what anti-depressant I was currently on. I responded by saying none, to which they acted surprised by and wanted to know if I wanted a prescription for one. When I asked why, they, a doctor, were at a loss for words. This is a bit off the topic, but in the same vein, but it was assumed that just because I was blind, I required medication to deal with the horror of my life. Nonetheless, there are blind people who aren't taught certain things, and as they grow older, certain behaviors develop and persist. It becomes difficult to reverse some behavior the older we get. I knew a young woman who was blind, and she never smiled- literally, not even when laughing. I came to find out that her parents told her that she had a silly smile and to just not do it. I knew another blind person, a young man, who never spoke until he was directly addressed. Apparently his parents had told him that if he spoke before being addressed, he risked looking stupid when it turned out no one was speaking to him, or addressing another person. And I won't even go into blindisms as we risk entering very heated territory here soon, smirky grin. Anyway, what I remember from the study, the reason behind the public display of sexual behavior, and not the behavior itself, was due to lack of information because he was blind. If I find any information, I'll post it. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 7 Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:46:46 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Bridgit, Do you happen to remember who wrote the study about the blind student masturbating during class? I'd be curious to know if it was actually verified that the reason he did this is because no one had ever told him that he shouldn't do it. It's definitely possible, but it's also possible that he knew he shouldn't do it but still ended up doing it for a different reason. Perhaps he had a sexual compulsion (unrelated to blindness) that made it very hard for him to not masturbate no matter how hard he tried. Or, it's possible that he knew he "shouldn't" do it or that other kids didn't do it, but that he wasn't motivated to stop, figuring "the teacher's blind, what's the difference?" My point is that I think whenever a blind person displays any kind of non-normative behavior, it's assumed they just "don't know any better" but that's just one of several possible reasons. As I've stated before, in order for anyone to modify their behavior they have to (a) know what the desired behavior is, (b) actually be motivated to change to conform to the norms, and (c) have the ability (self-awareness, self-control, etc.) to do so. In the case of blindisms, I would submit that most cases of blindisms do not result from mere lack of knowledge, but from either lack of motivation, lack of ability, or both. I have talked to so many blind teens and adults over the years who have complained that they really want to stop rocking or eye-poking but just can't because they aren't aware that it is happening. I have also talked to a few blind people who know that sighted people don't do those things, but still choose to do them (active nonconformity, like my adolescent approach to fashion that I mentioned earlier). I think when people assume any atypical behavior of the blind stems from merely not knowing what the norms are, we neglect the more complex aspects of the issue. Best, Arielle From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 25 22:30:57 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 17:30:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! In-Reply-To: References: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA><7.0.1.0.2.20111125052746.01cdbc30@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <35D8B6B806CF4EE8A14B77342D0B22A5@OwnerPC> how is it portable? -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Chao Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! Hi Carly NVDA has a portable version, which allows you to have your TTS/settings, and entire screen reader with you to connect to any Windows PC in the world and make it accessible. I use this a lot, such as at library, tech lab, school, various other places, where there are computers. It’s extremely incredible and amazing that it’s possible to walk up to any Windows PC and use it. Kevin On 11/25/11, Carly wrote: > Good morning, Kevin, > > What are the specifics, of using NVDA? There are times I > need WindowEyes but it is problematic IE not my machine so NVDA, > would be perfect. > for today, > Car11:39 PM 11/24/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: >>I use NVDA as my primary/main screen reader. There once was a time >>when I did use JAWS, but it's been over a year, and I'm very glad that >>I've stopped using it, and am using NVDA full-time. It's extremely >>fast, accurate, reliable, innovative, non-intrusive, free, has a >>portable version making any Windows PC in the world accessible, and >>developed by blind people. >> >>Kevin >> >>On 11/25/11, Humberto Avila wrote: >> > Thanks for sharing. I will download now. I use JAWS, but this has been >> > my >> > temporary screen reader in case something goes wrong. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> > Of Kevin Chao >> > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:32 PM >> > To: kevinchao89 >> > Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! >> > >> > http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released >> > NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. >> > This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for >> > production use and is recommended for most users. >> > Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language switching >> > when >> > reading documents with appropriate language information; support for 64 >> > bit >> > Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse mode >> > in >> > Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and >> > freezes; >> > and initial fixes for Windows 8. >> > Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: >> > .Updated documentation. >> > .Updated translations. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >> > mail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kevinchao89 at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 00:04:33 2011 From: kevinchao89 at gmail.com (Kevin Chao) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 18:04:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! In-Reply-To: <35D8B6B806CF4EE8A14B77342D0B22A5@OwnerPC> References: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125052746.01cdbc30@earthlink.net> <35D8B6B806CF4EE8A14B77342D0B22A5@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, NVDA portable can be installed onto a USB flash drive, which makes it portable. Kevin On 11/25/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > how is it portable? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Chao > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:25 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! > > Hi Carly > NVDA has a portable version, which allows you to have your > TTS/settings, and entire screen reader with you to connect to any > Windows PC in the world and make it accessible. > > I use this a lot, such as at library, tech lab, school, various other > places, where there are computers. > > It’s extremely incredible and amazing that it’s possible to walk up to > any Windows PC and use it. > > Kevin > > > On 11/25/11, Carly wrote: >> Good morning, Kevin, >> >> What are the specifics, of using NVDA? There are times I >> need WindowEyes but it is problematic IE not my machine so NVDA, >> would be perfect. >> for today, >> Car11:39 PM 11/24/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: >>>I use NVDA as my primary/main screen reader. There once was a time >>>when I did use JAWS, but it's been over a year, and I'm very glad that >>>I've stopped using it, and am using NVDA full-time. It's extremely >>>fast, accurate, reliable, innovative, non-intrusive, free, has a >>>portable version making any Windows PC in the world accessible, and >>>developed by blind people. >>> >>>Kevin >>> >>>On 11/25/11, Humberto Avila wrote: >>> > Thanks for sharing. I will download now. I use JAWS, but this has been >>> > my >>> > temporary screen reader in case something goes wrong. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>> > Of Kevin Chao >>> > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:32 PM >>> > To: kevinchao89 >>> > Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! >>> > >>> > http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released >>> > NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. >>> > This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for >>> > production use and is recommended for most users. >>> > Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language switching >>> > when >>> > reading documents with appropriate language information; support for 64 >>> > bit >>> > Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse mode >>> > in >>> > Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and >>> > freezes; >>> > and initial fixes for Windows 8. >>> > Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: >>> > .Updated documentation. >>> > .Updated translations. >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >>> > mail.com >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sat Nov 26 01:12:39 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 19:12:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Marc, First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a little about it. Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level more difficult to navigate through situations. I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly misinformed notions? Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique barriers that are difficult to hurdle. Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's reality, dude. A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on this issue. If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, but how one handles the barriers of a disability. And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know some sighted people who have a similar attitude. And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards changing minds about our actual abilities. Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not socially acceptable. You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, perpetuate the idea that we're different. The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show you how complex this is. On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're always right, giggle! Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan , Message: 6 Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 From: Marc Workman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bridgit wrote, why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled people not to look blind. why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. Ashley wrote, I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It makes us look worse. It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind person. I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look "retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be fighting against with respect to blindness. Bridgit wrote, Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? Ashley wrote, Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world that is better for everyone. I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. Cheers, Marc From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sat Nov 26 01:23:58 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 19:23:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Eating with hands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arielle, Well, I'm not the best authority here because I'm a germophobe so I wash my hands a lot, plus use hand sanitizer and try to avoid finger foods if possible, usually opting to use utensils regardless, smile. For the sake of this discussion, you're right, but we can't apply a blanket rule either. Even if potentially a hygiene issue, there are foods considered perfectly acceptable to be eaten with ones hands. If it were up to me, we would never eat finger foods, and hand washing would be mandatory for anyone, giggle! Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 9 Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 15:47:58 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minorities Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Good point Bridgit. But, then why can we use our hands for non-sticky things like fries and sandwiches? Wouldn't that carry the same health risks as eating spaghetti with our hands and then washing hands afterward to wash off the sticky stuff? I know I'm getting a little pedantic here, but just saying that before we assume social norms must be followed by everyone, it's worth considering what their real purpose is. Best, Arielle From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 26 02:51:59 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:51:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] staring Message-ID: 7d8b244c-d2a2-4899-9642-199db49fbbad@samobile.net Perhaps. But not at the expense of people feeling uncomfortable or alienated. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Good afternoon, Chris, > I don't believe the act of Staring is inherently bad. Don't you think > it wise to allow any misconseptons about blindness to be > demystified? At 11:06 AM 11/24/2011, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> Hi Vejas, >> Ah, the staring game! I'm faced with this as well! Now, let me just >> say this; you are frustrated because your sighted parents aren't >> doing anything about it. However, if they're not doing something >> about it, can't you? I know that your parents would have to tell you >> that someone is staring, but you can take it from there! You can >> advocate for yourself; you can tell them to stop! >> Chris >> "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The >> real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that >> exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, >> blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." >> -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 >> The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in >> Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive >> technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them >> be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the >> Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: vejas > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list> Date sent: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 10:54:40 -0800 >> Subject: [nabs-l] staring >> I hate staring. >> People do it all the time in my community, and I don't even know >> that they are doing it. >> I have no vision as of recently. I can't tell when people are >> staring at me. But I know-because my parents sometimes tell me >> that in restaurants, people stare at how I eat. >> What is more upsetting, though, is why aren't my parents doing >> anything about the staring, like telling them to stop? I wonder >> do these people even realize they are staring? >> Vejas >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From carlymih at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 02:54:40 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 18:54:40 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125171625.01cbae78@earthlink.net> Hi, Marc, and Bridgit, If you notice, the word "retarded" simply describes someone who is slower to complete brain function.Furthermore, It doesn't seem right by anyone's calculations to, effectively and literally as Brigit suggests avoid that particular word altogether, Wouldn't Doing so be in some way singling those folks who happened to process slower than is the norm, out? If one is to get past the idea that, actual intent in which something is termed, carries more meaning than does meaningless, verbeage which, itself doesn't really communicate anything baring substance?I am brain damaged, so my processing functions seem a little bit retarded sometimes yet, I most certainly do not appreciate the politically, correct construct they came up with, that by effectively erasing the concept, of being retarded, from the vernacular, so too will those unsightlies, be effectively, erased? in retardation, Carly >First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! > >However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >little about it. > >Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >more difficult to navigate through situations. > >I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. > >While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >misinformed notions? > >Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >"worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >barriers that are difficult to hurdle. > >Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >reality, dude. > >A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. > >And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >this issue. > >If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. > >You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >but how one handles the barriers of a disability. > >And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >some sighted people who have a similar attitude. > >And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >changing minds about our actual abilities. > >Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >socially acceptable. > >You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >perpetuate the idea that we're different. > >The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >you how complex this is. > >On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >always right, giggle! > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >, Message: 6 >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >From: Marc Workman >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Bridgit wrote, >why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. > >Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >people not to look blind. > >why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. > >Ashley wrote, >I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >makes us look worse. > >It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >person. > >I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >fighting against with respect to blindness. > >Bridgit wrote, >Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. > >What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? > >Ashley wrote, >Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. > >I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >that is better for everyone. > >I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. > >Cheers, > >Marc > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 26 02:57:25 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:57:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: 79e8ce20-cf7e-411b-b87a-131a5624fde7@samobile.net Bridgit, The blind teacher in the study may have concluded that the boy's behavior is due to his not knowing how sight works, but you yourself caution the overattribution of behavior to blindness. That said, it seems to me that prudence is required in interpreting this study: just because the blind teacher said the boy doesn't understand how sight works thus deciding that masturbation in public is okay, that doesn't make it so. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Arielle, > I agree that we are quick to assume we know why a person does what they > do; for anyone, there a lot of variables that can contribute to, or lead > to, certain behavior. In the instance of the case with the boy who > masterbated, I can only say what information I read about. > It was like four years ago that I wrote the paper, and I'm not sure if I > ended up using that particular source, but I still have the paper > somewhere and can check. I believe the boy lived in Florida. > Based on what I remember, the teacher working with this student, who was > also blind, explained that the boy wasn't aware of how sight worked- > this is completely a layman's definition based on my memory of the case. > Obviously, chronic, not to mention public, masturbation for anyone is > symptomatic of a sexual compulsion. Though you boys are so icky in this > regard, j/k, smile, chronic masturbation, blind, sighted, male, female, > is not appropriate behavior around others. With this case, I believe, > the reasoning he did it in public was, based on the foundings of his > teacher who was blind, because he wasn't aware that others could see > him. > It's unfortunate that many attribute every little thing we do to our > blindness. If my sighted friend trips, it's because they're not paying > attention, but if I trip, it's all credited to my blindness. We never > get to just be people. Having been sighted for 22 years and only blind > for eight, this has been the most difficult adjustment. > I agree we need to be careful about how and why we attribute behavior to > a person. When blind, for instance, we can't assume everything is just > due to blindness. I had a doctor go through my med list during a visit > years ago, and they asked what anti-depressant I was currently on. I > responded by saying none, to which they acted surprised by and wanted to > know if I wanted a prescription for one. When I asked why, they, a > doctor, were at a loss for words. This is a bit off the topic, but in > the same vein, but it was assumed that just because I was blind, I > required medication to deal with the horror of my life. > Nonetheless, there are blind people who aren't taught certain things, > and as they grow older, certain behaviors develop and persist. It > becomes difficult to reverse some behavior the older we get. I knew a > young woman who was blind, and she never smiled- literally, not even > when laughing. I came to find out that her parents told her that she had > a silly smile and to just not do it. I knew another blind person, a > young man, who never spoke until he was directly addressed. Apparently > his parents had told him that if he spoke before being addressed, he > risked looking stupid when it turned out no one was speaking to him, or > addressing another person. And I won't even go into blindisms as we risk > entering very heated territory here soon, smirky grin. > Anyway, what I remember from the study, the reason behind the public > display of sexual behavior, and not the behavior itself, was due to lack > of information because he was blind. If I find any information, I'll > post it. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:46:46 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Hi Bridgit, > Do you happen to remember who wrote the study about the blind student > masturbating during class? I'd be curious to know if it was actually > verified that the reason he did this is because no one had ever told him > that he shouldn't do it. It's definitely possible, but it's also > possible that he knew he shouldn't do it but still ended up doing it for > a different reason. Perhaps he had a sexual compulsion (unrelated to > blindness) that made it very hard for him to not masturbate no matter > how hard he tried. Or, it's possible that he knew he "shouldn't" do it > or that other kids didn't do it, but that he wasn't motivated to stop, > figuring "the teacher's blind, what's the difference?" My point is that > I think whenever a blind person displays any kind of non-normative > behavior, it's assumed they just "don't know any better" but that's just > one of several possible reasons. As I've stated before, in order for > anyone to modify their behavior they have to (a) know what the desired > behavior is, (b) actually be motivated to change to conform to the > norms, and (c) have the ability (self-awareness, self-control, etc.) to > do so. In the case of blindisms, I would submit that most cases of > blindisms do not result from mere lack of knowledge, but from either > lack of motivation, lack of ability, or both. I have talked to so many > blind teens and adults over the years who have complained that they > really want to stop rocking or eye-poking but just can't because they > aren't aware that it is happening. I have also talked to a few blind > people who know that sighted people don't do those things, but still > choose to do them (active nonconformity, like my adolescent approach to > fashion that I mentioned earlier). I think when people assume any > atypical behavior of the blind stems from merely not knowing what the > norms are, we neglect the more complex aspects of the issue. Best, > Arielle > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From robinmel71 at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 03:07:45 2011 From: robinmel71 at earthlink.net (Robin) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 19:07:45 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125190459.04c4e6f0@earthlink.net> Good Evenin', Miss Bridget, All I'm GOIN' to say IS that you CAN'T equate masturbating with rockin'? NUFF Said!! At 02:20 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >Arielle, > >I agree that we are quick to assume we know why a person does what they >do; for anyone, there a lot of variables that can contribute to, or lead >to, certain behavior. In the instance of the case with the boy who >masterbated, I can only say what information I read about. > >It was like four years ago that I wrote the paper, and I'm not sure if I >ended up using that particular source, but I still have the paper >somewhere and can check. I believe the boy lived in Florida. > >Based on what I remember, the teacher working with this student, who was >also blind, explained that the boy wasn't aware of how sight worked- >this is completely a layman's definition based on my memory of the case. >Obviously, chronic, not to mention public, masturbation for anyone is >symptomatic of a sexual compulsion. Though you boys are so icky in this >regard, j/k, smile, chronic masturbation, blind, sighted, male, female, >is not appropriate behavior around others. With this case, I believe, >the reasoning he did it in public was, based on the foundings of his >teacher who was blind, because he wasn't aware that others could see >him. > >It's unfortunate that many attribute every little thing we do to our >blindness. If my sighted friend trips, it's because they're not paying >attention, but if I trip, it's all credited to my blindness. We never >get to just be people. Having been sighted for 22 years and only blind >for eight, this has been the most difficult adjustment. > >I agree we need to be careful about how and why we attribute behavior to >a person. When blind, for instance, we can't assume everything is just >due to blindness. I had a doctor go through my med list during a visit >years ago, and they asked what anti-depressant I was currently on. I >responded by saying none, to which they acted surprised by and wanted to >know if I wanted a prescription for one. When I asked why, they, a >doctor, were at a loss for words. This is a bit off the topic, but in >the same vein, but it was assumed that just because I was blind, I >required medication to deal with the horror of my life. > >Nonetheless, there are blind people who aren't taught certain things, >and as they grow older, certain behaviors develop and persist. It >becomes difficult to reverse some behavior the older we get. I knew a >young woman who was blind, and she never smiled- literally, not even >when laughing. I came to find out that her parents told her that she had >a silly smile and to just not do it. I knew another blind person, a >young man, who never spoke until he was directly addressed. Apparently >his parents had told him that if he spoke before being addressed, he >risked looking stupid when it turned out no one was speaking to him, or >addressing another person. And I won't even go into blindisms as we risk >entering very heated territory here soon, smirky grin. > >Anyway, what I remember from the study, the reason behind the public >display of sexual behavior, and not the behavior itself, was due to lack >of information because he was blind. If I find any information, I'll >post it. > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >Message: 7 >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:46:46 -0700 >From: Arielle Silverman >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >Message-ID: > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >Hi Bridgit, >Do you happen to remember who wrote the study about the blind student >masturbating during class? I'd be curious to know if it was actually >verified that the reason he did this is because no one had ever told him >that he shouldn't do it. It's definitely possible, but it's also >possible that he knew he shouldn't do it but still ended up doing it for >a different reason. Perhaps he had a sexual compulsion (unrelated to >blindness) that made it very hard for him to not masturbate no matter >how hard he tried. Or, it's possible that he knew he "shouldn't" do it >or that other kids didn't do it, but that he wasn't motivated to stop, >figuring "the teacher's blind, what's the difference?" My point is that >I think whenever a blind person displays any kind of non-normative >behavior, it's assumed they just "don't know any better" but that's just >one of several possible reasons. As I've stated before, in order for >anyone to modify their behavior they have to (a) know what the desired >behavior is, (b) actually be motivated to change to conform to the >norms, and (c) have the ability (self-awareness, self-control, etc.) to >do so. In the case of blindisms, I would submit that most cases of >blindisms do not result from mere lack of knowledge, but from either >lack of motivation, lack of ability, or both. I have talked to so many >blind teens and adults over the years who have complained that they >really want to stop rocking or eye-poking but just can't because they >aren't aware that it is happening. I have also talked to a few blind >people who know that sighted people don't do those things, but still >choose to do them (active nonconformity, like my adolescent approach to >fashion that I mentioned earlier). I think when people assume any >atypical behavior of the blind stems from merely not knowing what the >norms are, we neglect the more complex aspects of the issue. Best, >Arielle > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net From carlymih at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 03:40:56 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 19:40:56 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! In-Reply-To: References: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125052746.01cdbc30@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125194028.01dca8f0@earthlink.net> Hi, Kevin, How do you do it?At 01:25 PM 11/25/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: >Hi Carly >NVDA has a portable version, which allows you to have your >TTS/settings, and entire screen reader with you to connect to any >Windows PC in the world and make it accessible. > >I use this a lot, such as at library, tech lab, school, various other >places, where there are computers. > >It's extremely incredible and amazing that it's possible to walk up to >any Windows PC and use it. > >Kevin > > >On 11/25/11, Carly wrote: > > Good morning, Kevin, > > > > What are the specifics, of using NVDA? There are times I > > need WindowEyes but it is problematic IE not my machine so NVDA, > > would be perfect. > > for today, > > Car11:39 PM 11/24/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: > >>I use NVDA as my primary/main screen reader. There once was a time > >>when I did use JAWS, but it's been over a year, and I'm very glad that > >>I've stopped using it, and am using NVDA full-time. It's extremely > >>fast, accurate, reliable, innovative, non-intrusive, free, has a > >>portable version making any Windows PC in the world accessible, and > >>developed by blind people. > >> > >>Kevin > >> > >>On 11/25/11, Humberto Avila wrote: > >> > Thanks for sharing. I will download now. I use JAWS, but this has been > >> > my > >> > temporary screen reader in case something goes wrong. > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > >> > Of Kevin Chao > >> > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:32 PM > >> > To: kevinchao89 > >> > Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! > >> > > >> > http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released > >> > NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. > >> > This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for > >> > production use and is recommended for most users. > >> > Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language switching > >> > when > >> > reading documents with appropriate language information; support for 64 > >> > bit > >> > Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse mode > >> > in > >> > Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and > >> > freezes; > >> > and initial fixes for Windows 8. > >> > Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: > >> > .Updated documentation. > >> > .Updated translations. > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > >> > mail.com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40ear > thlink.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 26 03:49:25 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 22:49:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: ebe88a9e-94a3-4337-92b5-46e9b95bb61c@samobile.net Bridgit, As someone speaking on the side of acceptance, I don't feel that I'm making anything into a blind versus sighted thing. I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious: we're a minority group that is expected to conform to the majority. If we don't conform, we're considered worse off than if we do conform. If we do conform, we're considered to be somehow different from the worst members of the minority we represent. As part of that system, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to conform to the majority as well for the same reason: we don't want to be associated with the worst stereotype of our minority group. None of this is to say that members of the majority (the sighted in this case) are evil people. It just means that we blind are experiencing the same kinds of intercultural tensions faced by other minority groups, and, like other minorities have done, we're trying to navigate that tension by trying to do what the majority does so we won't be alienated quite so much. This doesn't make us bad people, it just means that we're trying to make the best of a frustrating situation. The serious down side to that is that we're potentially alienating members of our own group (and maybe even ourselves) by rigidly clinging to a set of arbitrary norms. This idea I have about acceptance is not about anything more or less than not adding more stress to our lives than is necessary. It's already bad enough that we're frustrated by our experiences with the sighted community (you included), so why do we need to add more frustrations to our lives by harshly judging and criticising ourselves? On a possibly related note, I think I'm beginning to understand why some blind people are frustrated with the Federation. I've heard a lot of blind people say that the Federation tends to be too judgmental of those who maybe aren't as skilled, confident, or as "acceptable" (in quotes) as we perceive ourselves to be. what I hear these people saying (now that i think about it) is this: I want to be accepted for who I am and where I'm at. For some of these people, perhaps they want to stay where they're at and so acceptance is extremely important to them. But as it is, I'm of a humanistic bent, so I believe that acceptance makes room for growth. If I truly accept you for who you are and am not in a hurry to change you in any way, you have full license to fully explore and be in your experience while in my company. from that place, you are more able to make autonomous decisions about whatever behaviors, thoughts, feelings, etc that you may want to change if at all. The bottom line is that it would be your choice, and I would accept you and your choice unconditionally. Humanist philosophy contends that human beings, if given the total choice, would probably choose to grow rather than stagnate; this tendency may be all that is needed to initiate positive growth for that person who initially didn't seem to want to change. I think that's what many of these blind people are looking for in the Federation. But perhaps, because we're having so much trouble accepting ourselves, we can't offer that to them. We're so hell-bent on being accepted by the majority, so how could we be available to another person? Now to clarify, I'm not suggesting that all Federationists are like this, but it seems to be a prevailing pattern in our Federation culture. On further reflection, I'm wondering if Dr. Jernigan didn't try to address this issue in some way by writing "The Nature of Independence." While I don't agree with dr. Jernigan's rigid definition of the three stages of independence, I do agree that a little acceptance of each of us is definitely at hand and would be a good idea. While he specifically covered blindness skills and independence, I'm extending the idea to so-called mannerisms. As is the case with blindness skills, it's a good idea to know how to be effective, but it's not useful to harshly judge and criticise people if they aren't yet effective or make the active choice to define effectiveness differently, especially if (in this case) the norms we're considering are arbitrary anyway. Is any of this making sense? Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Marc, > First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! > However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with > negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability > is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental > disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through > life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family > members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a > little about it. > Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or > physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental > disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level > more difficult to navigate through situations. > I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic > information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand > with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we > don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and > simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings > intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. > While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a > test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could > understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on > my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she > was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a > few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from > understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the > doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman > assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend > information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless > of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or > not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a > 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all > ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly > misinformed notions? > Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't > intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume > either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend > something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as > blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you > don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily > "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique > barriers that are difficult to hurdle. > Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a > parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in > general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even > with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, > and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It > does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher > functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual > capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, > isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual > people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to > prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because > of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself > with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give > you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms > even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry > yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what > your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, > people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's > reality, dude. > A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her > early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child > since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My > aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally > award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all > thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to > care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere > sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least > to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. > And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly > behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is > now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting > unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to > attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. > Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on > this issue. > If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it > makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is > not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume > we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with > only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental > disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You > can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. > You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated > with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, > but how one handles the barriers of a disability. > And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted > even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to > my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also > demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop > making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a > former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those > with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I > had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; > I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found > something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their > disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know > some sighted people who have a similar attitude. > And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who > engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not > correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards > changing minds about our actual abilities. > Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , > but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors > are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable > of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves > included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, > instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not > socially acceptable. > You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the > sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks > and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse > prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, > once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't > consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use > my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change > negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, > perpetuate the idea that we're different. > The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans > established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled > or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, > people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show > you how complex this is. > On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're > always right, giggle! > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > , Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 > From: Marc Workman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Bridgit wrote, > why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? > Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why > give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind > people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones > society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental > disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. > Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually > disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled > people not to look blind. > why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most > people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled > people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is > intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, > have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our > path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. > Ashley wrote, > I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because > it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. > Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It > makes us look worse. > It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively > delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that > rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively > disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind > person. > I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look > "retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, > is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative > attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be > fighting against with respect to blindness. > Bridgit wrote, > Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not > appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. > What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it > decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it > this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered > appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time > when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to > talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered > to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because > people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of > the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes > about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? > Ashley wrote, > Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of > your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. > I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not > mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers > me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness > that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, > as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with > these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most > people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them > that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this > is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of > course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the > majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world > that is better for everyone. > I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada > celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you > Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. > Cheers, > Marc > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From robinmel71 at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 03:52:53 2011 From: robinmel71 at earthlink.net (Robin) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 19:52:53 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125193942.04c22e50@earthlink.net> Here's 2 ROCKIN'. Rock Around The Clock One, Two, Three O'clock, Four O'clock rock, Five, Six, Seven O'clock, Eight O'clock rock. Nine, Ten, Eleven O'clock, Twelve O'clock rock, We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. Put your glad rags on and join me hon', We'll have some fun when the clock strikes one. CHORUS: We're gonna rock around the clock tonight, We're gonna rock, rock, rock, 'till broad daylight, We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. When the clock strikes two, three and four, If the band slows down we'll yell for more. CHORUS: We're gonna rock around the clock tonight, We're gonna rock, rock, rock, 'till broad daylight, We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. When the chimes ring five, six, and seven, We'll be right in seventh heaven. CHORUS: We're gonna rock around the clock tonight, We're gonna rock, rock, rock, 'till broad daylight, We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. When it's eight, nine, ten, eleven too, I'll be goin' strong and so will you. CHORUS: We're gonna rock around the clock tonight, We're gonna rock, rock, rock, 'till broad daylight, We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. When the clock stikes twelve we'll cool off then, Start rockin' 'round the clock again. CHORUS: We're gonna rock around the clock tonight, We're gonna rock, rock, rock, 'till broad daylight, We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. [] [] At 05:12 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >Marc, > >First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! > >However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >little about it. > >Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >more difficult to navigate through situations. > >I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. > >While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >misinformed notions? > >Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >"worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >barriers that are difficult to hurdle. > >Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >reality, dude. > >A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. > >And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >this issue. > >If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. > >You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >but how one handles the barriers of a disability. > >And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >some sighted people who have a similar attitude. > >And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >changing minds about our actual abilities. > >Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >socially acceptable. > >You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >perpetuate the idea that we're different. > >The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >you how complex this is. > >On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >always right, giggle! > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >, Message: 6 >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >From: Marc Workman >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Bridgit wrote, >why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. > >Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >people not to look blind. > >why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. > >Ashley wrote, >I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >makes us look worse. > >It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >person. > >I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >fighting against with respect to blindness. > >Bridgit wrote, >Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. > >What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? > >Ashley wrote, >Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. > >I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >that is better for everyone. > >I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. > >Cheers, > >Marc > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: f640924.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 631 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carlymih at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 03:52:50 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 19:52:50 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! In-Reply-To: References: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125052746.01cdbc30@earthlink.net> <35D8B6B806CF4EE8A14B77342D0B22A5@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125195145.01d8dca8@earthlink.net> Hey, Kevin, Where do you get it? Thank you. Car/25/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: >Hi Ashley, > >NVDA portable can be installed onto a USB flash drive, which makes >it portable. > >Kevin > >On 11/25/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > > how is it portable? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kevin Chao > > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:25 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! > > > > Hi Carly > > NVDA has a portable version, which allows you to have your > > TTS/settings, and entire screen reader with you to connect to any > > Windows PC in the world and make it accessible. > > > > I use this a lot, such as at library, tech lab, school, various other > > places, where there are computers. > > > > It's extremely incredible and amazing that it's possible to walk up to > > any Windows PC and use it. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > On 11/25/11, Carly wrote: > >> Good morning, Kevin, > >> > >> What are the specifics, of using NVDA? There are times I > >> need WindowEyes but it is problematic IE not my machine so NVDA, > >> would be perfect. > >> for today, > >> Car11:39 PM 11/24/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: > >>>I use NVDA as my primary/main screen reader. There once was a time > >>>when I did use JAWS, but it's been over a year, and I'm very glad that > >>>I've stopped using it, and am using NVDA full-time. It's extremely > >>>fast, accurate, reliable, innovative, non-intrusive, free, has a > >>>portable version making any Windows PC in the world accessible, and > >>>developed by blind people. > >>> > >>>Kevin > >>> > >>>On 11/25/11, Humberto Avila wrote: > >>> > Thanks for sharing. I will download now. I use JAWS, but this has been > >>> > my > >>> > temporary screen reader in case something goes wrong. > >>> > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > >>> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > >>> > Of Kevin Chao > >>> > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:32 PM > >>> > To: kevinchao89 > >>> > Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! > >>> > > >>> > http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released > >>> > NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. > >>> > This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for > >>> > production use and is recommended for most users. > >>> > Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language switching > >>> > when > >>> > reading documents with appropriate language information; support for 64 > >>> > bit > >>> > Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse mode > >>> > in > >>> > Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and > >>> > freezes; > >>> > and initial fixes for Windows 8. > >>> > Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: > >>> > .Updated documentation. > >>> > .Updated translations. > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> > nabs-l: > >>> > > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > >>> > mail.com > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> > nabs-l: > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > >>> > > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40ea > rthlink.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From carlymih at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 03:55:28 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 19:55:28 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Eating with hands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125195433.01d86d60@earthlink.net> 'Don't think I wanna eat fries with you. for today, CarAt 05:23 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >Arielle, > >Well, I'm not the best authority here because I'm a germophobe so I wash >my hands a lot, plus use hand sanitizer and try to avoid finger foods if >possible, usually opting to use utensils regardless, smile. > >For the sake of this discussion, you're right, but we can't apply a >blanket rule either. Even if potentially a hygiene issue, there are >foods considered perfectly acceptable to be eaten with ones hands. > >If it were up to me, we would never eat finger foods, and hand washing >would be mandatory for anyone, giggle! > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >Message: 9 >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 15:47:58 -0700 >From: Arielle Silverman >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. other minorities >Message-ID: > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >Good point Bridgit. But, then why can we use our hands for non-sticky >things like fries and sandwiches? Wouldn't that carry the same health >risks as eating spaghetti with our hands and then washing hands >afterward to wash off the sticky stuff? I know I'm getting a little >pedantic here, but just saying that before we assume social norms must >be followed by everyone, it's worth considering what their real purpose >is. Best, Arielle > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 04:08:10 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:08:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Message-ID: <90FCF86FAF2E4766A6DB8ECFAFBFAE53@hometwxakonvzn> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 04:11:33 2011 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:11:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Message-ID: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard to repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. Beth P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" Message-ID: Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard to > repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT > Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. > Beth > P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:08:10 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was > thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an > iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've > found. > http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html > Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR > purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 04:33:25 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:33:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC> Bridgit, Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. Like you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im cognitively or developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities are very different. Those with those disabilities function at a teen or child level; their body is grown, their mind is not. It is not their fault, it is the way they are built. And I just loved your anecdotes to back up your point. I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have been treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its definitely degrading and frustrating. I think we should change behaviors that we can; after all a sighted person growing up would be expected to extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be treated like everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Marc, First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a little about it. Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level more difficult to navigate through situations. I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly misinformed notions? Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique barriers that are difficult to hurdle. Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's reality, dude. A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on this issue. If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, but how one handles the barriers of a disability. And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know some sighted people who have a similar attitude. And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards changing minds about our actual abilities. Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not socially acceptable. You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, perpetuate the idea that we're different. The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show you how complex this is. On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're always right, giggle! Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan , Message: 6 Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 From: Marc Workman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bridgit wrote, why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled people not to look blind. why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. Ashley wrote, I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It makes us look worse. It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind person. I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look "retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be fighting against with respect to blindness. Bridgit wrote, Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? Ashley wrote, Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world that is better for everyone. I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. Cheers, Marc _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 04:35:55 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:35:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125171625.01cbae78@earthlink.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125171625.01cbae78@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I agree Carley. I don't like all this politically correct language. Since retard means slower, its really not a bad word; IMO not any worse than saying blind. -----Original Message----- From: Carly Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Hi, Marc, and Bridgit, If you notice, the word "retarded" simply describes someone who is slower to complete brain function.Furthermore, It doesn't seem right by anyone's calculations to, effectively and literally as Brigit suggests avoid that particular word altogether, Wouldn't Doing so be in some way singling those folks who happened to process slower than is the norm, out? If one is to get past the idea that, actual intent in which something is termed, carries more meaning than does meaningless, verbeage which, itself doesn't really communicate anything baring substance?I am brain damaged, so my processing functions seem a little bit retarded sometimes yet, I most certainly do not appreciate the politically, correct construct they came up with, that by effectively erasing the concept, of being retarded, from the vernacular, so too will those unsightlies, be effectively, erased? in retardation, Carly >First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! > >However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >little about it. > >Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >more difficult to navigate through situations. > >I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. > >While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >misinformed notions? > >Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >"worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >barriers that are difficult to hurdle. > >Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >reality, dude. > >A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. > >And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >this issue. > >If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. > >You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >but how one handles the barriers of a disability. > >And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >some sighted people who have a similar attitude. > >And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >changing minds about our actual abilities. > >Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >socially acceptable. > >You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >perpetuate the idea that we're different. > >The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >you how complex this is. > >On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >always right, giggle! > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >, Message: 6 >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >From: Marc Workman >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Bridgit wrote, >why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. > >Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >people not to look blind. > >why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. > >Ashley wrote, >I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >makes us look worse. > >It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >person. > >I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >fighting against with respect to blindness. > >Bridgit wrote, >Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. > >What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? > >Ashley wrote, >Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. > >I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >that is better for everyone. > >I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. > >Cheers, > >Marc > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 04:35:21 2011 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:35:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Message-ID: <4ed06cc2.57c3e70a.293c.26c0@mx.google.com> Yes. You interact with the icons on the screen. And you can use a wireless keyboard to navigate too. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Yes. Koby. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > >> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard to repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >> Beth >> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:08:10 -0500 >> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. >> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >> se%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 26 04:47:56 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:47:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: 0867bada-0cd2-4318-82e6-44293c3d8efc@samobile.net Brilliant. Original message: > Here's 2 ROCKIN'. > Rock Around The Clock > One, Two, Three O'clock, Four O'clock rock, > Five, Six, Seven O'clock, Eight O'clock rock. > Nine, Ten, Eleven O'clock, Twelve O'clock rock, > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. > Put your glad rags on and join me hon', > We'll have some fun when the clock strikes one. > CHORUS: > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight, > We're gonna rock, rock, rock, 'till broad daylight, > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. > When the clock strikes two, three and four, > If the band slows down we'll yell for more. > CHORUS: > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight, > We're gonna rock, rock, rock, 'till broad daylight, > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. > When the chimes ring five, six, and seven, > We'll be right in seventh heaven. > CHORUS: > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight, > We're gonna rock, rock, rock, 'till broad daylight, > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. > When it's eight, nine, ten, eleven too, > I'll be goin' strong and so will you. > CHORUS: > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight, > We're gonna rock, rock, rock, 'till broad daylight, > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. > When the clock stikes twelve we'll cool off then, > Start rockin' 'round the clock again. > CHORUS: > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight, > We're gonna rock, rock, rock, 'till broad daylight, > We're gonna rock around the clock tonight. > [] > [] > At 05:12 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >> Marc, >> First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >> However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >> negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >> is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >> disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >> life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >> members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >> little about it. >> Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >> physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >> disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >> more difficult to navigate through situations. >> I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >> information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >> with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >> don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >> simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >> intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. >> While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >> test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >> understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >> my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >> was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >> few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >> understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >> doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >> assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >> information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >> of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >> not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >> 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >> ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >> misinformed notions? >> Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >> intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >> either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >> something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >> blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >> don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >> "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >> barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >> Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >> parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >> general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >> with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >> and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >> does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >> functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >> capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >> isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >> people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >> prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >> of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >> with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >> you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >> even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >> yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >> your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >> people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >> reality, dude. >> A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >> early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >> since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >> aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >> award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >> thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >> care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >> sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >> to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. >> And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >> behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >> now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >> unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >> attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >> Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >> this issue. >> If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >> makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >> not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >> we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >> only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >> disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >> can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >> You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >> with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >> but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >> And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >> even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >> my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >> demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >> making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >> former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >> with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >> had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >> I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >> something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >> disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >> some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >> And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >> engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >> correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >> changing minds about our actual abilities. >> Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >> but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >> are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >> of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >> included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >> instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >> socially acceptable. >> You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >> sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >> and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >> prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >> once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >> consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >> my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >> negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >> perpetuate the idea that we're different. >> The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >> established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >> or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >> people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >> you how complex this is. >> On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >> always right, giggle! >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> , Message: 6 >> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >> From: Marc Workman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Bridgit wrote, >> why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >> Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >> people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >> society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >> disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >> Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >> disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >> people not to look blind. >> why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >> people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >> people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >> intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >> have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >> path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >> Ashley wrote, >> I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >> it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >> Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >> makes us look worse. >> It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >> delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >> rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >> disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >> person. >> I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >> "retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >> is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >> attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >> fighting against with respect to blindness. >> Bridgit wrote, >> Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >> appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >> What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >> decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >> this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >> appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >> when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >> talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >> to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >> people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >> the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >> about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? >> Ashley wrote, >> Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >> your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >> I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >> mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >> me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >> that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >> as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >> these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >> people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >> that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >> is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >> course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >> majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >> that is better for everyone. >> I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >> celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >> Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >> Cheers, >> Marc >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 26 04:54:24 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:54:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Message-ID: 4adcff4c-0977-4ef9-8396-f8f9cae753f1@samobile.net Hey there. I don't use an iPad, but I use an iPhone for my note taking and the like. I pair it with a folding Nokia SU-8W keyboard and a Brailliant display. Now, VR did pay for the display and the keyboard, but i paid for the iPhone. I could have paid for the keyboard, but at the time, I didn't have the money. I opted for this setup because, if the display needs repair, I can still use the iPhone with the keyboard. If the keyboard needs repair, I can still use the phone and the display; it might be slow going with inputing text, but it can be done (I can always record if I really get stuck). If the iPhone goes dead, I can always replace it and my stuff will be in the cloud. Sure, the iPhone is still quite expensive, but it is less expensive than the blindness products are. I also choose this setup because I can decide when I'll use the keyboard and display, but i'll always have my info on the go. Finally, it's easier to share information across platforms and iOS devices tend to stay with current trends in technology much more than blindness products tend to. But it's also the principle of the thing: I want to support technologies that use universal design rather than supporting a system that keeps blind people having to rely on rehab for their most basic needs. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was > thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an > iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. > http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html > Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR > purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 04:56:35 2011 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 20:56:35 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Yes, I think that is why some many blind people are using iPhones and iPads as their personal note taking and at school too. I think that these mainstream IOS devices with voiceover will be the nearby future of the accessibility for the blind. Since those assistive technology products made specifically for the blind are so expensive, blind people are going to shift to those devices, since they come with screen reading accessibility out of the box. Plus, they are not as expensive. Additionally, since Braille displays are not as expensive as note takers, some might chose the option to add a Braille display in combination to their IOS device instead of purchasing those major products such as Pacmate and Braille Note. If the trend continues like I mentioned, the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies better take notice of this and see fit. Besides, it would benefit their programs and services as well, and with this economy (if it continues to be bad), they will not have to suffer budget cuts by trying to help individuals with their note takers because they are so expensive. So, Humanware and freedom Scientific, I'm sorry if I offend you at all, I am not trying to be mean. Otherwise don't listen please!!!! (huge smile) P.S. wondering if this listserve is that much public? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Koby Cox Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Yes. Koby. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > >> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard to repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >> Beth >> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. >> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >> se%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >> ur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.co > m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From robinmel71 at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 05:04:59 2011 From: robinmel71 at earthlink.net (Robin) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:04:59 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC> References: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net> Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon those, who EXHIBIT mannerisms of the Blind variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, you like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP with Ol"Sighty and do NOT expect others in "The Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >Bridgit, >Nicely said, and some of these examples point >out apples and oranges. Like you, I do not want >to give people a reason to think Im cognitively >or developmentally delayed when I'm not. The >disabilities are very different. Those with >those disabilities function at a teen or child >level; their body is grown, their mind is not. >It is not their fault, it is the way they are >built. And I just loved your anecdotes to back up your point. > >I find it degrading when people talk over me to >a sighted companion or assume I need extra help >or something just because I'm blind. I have been >treated like I'm not the college educated adult >I am. Its definitely degrading and >frustrating. I think we should change behaviors >that we can; after all a sighted person growing >up would be expected to extinguish these >behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be >treated like everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. > >Ashley > >-----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > >Marc, > >First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! > >However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >little about it. > >Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >more difficult to navigate through situations. > >I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. > >While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >misinformed notions? > >Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >"worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >barriers that are difficult to hurdle. > >Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >reality, dude. > >A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. > >And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >this issue. > >If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. > >You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >but how one handles the barriers of a disability. > >And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >some sighted people who have a similar attitude. > >And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >changing minds about our actual abilities. > >Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >socially acceptable. > >You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >perpetuate the idea that we're different. > >The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >you how complex this is. > >On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >always right, giggle! > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >, Message: 6 >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >From: Marc Workman >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Bridgit wrote, >why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. > >Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >people not to look blind. > >why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. > >Ashley wrote, >I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >makes us look worse. > >It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >person. > >I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >fighting against with respect to blindness. > >Bridgit wrote, >Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. > >What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? > >Ashley wrote, >Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. > >I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >that is better for everyone. > >I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. > >Cheers, > >Marc > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net From kevinchao89 at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 05:12:06 2011 From: kevinchao89 at gmail.com (Kevin Chao) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:12:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125195145.01d8dca8@earthlink.net> References: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125052746.01cdbc30@earthlink.net> <35D8B6B806CF4EE8A14B77342D0B22A5@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125195145.01d8dca8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: NVDA-Project.org On 11/25/11, Carly wrote: > > Hey, Kevin, > > Where do you get it? > Thank you. > Car/25/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: >>Hi Ashley, >> >>NVDA portable can be installed onto a USB flash drive, which makes >>it portable. >> >>Kevin >> >>On 11/25/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> > how is it portable? >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Kevin Chao >> > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:25 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! >> > >> > Hi Carly >> > NVDA has a portable version, which allows you to have your >> > TTS/settings, and entire screen reader with you to connect to any >> > Windows PC in the world and make it accessible. >> > >> > I use this a lot, such as at library, tech lab, school, various other >> > places, where there are computers. >> > >> > It's extremely incredible and amazing that it's possible to walk up to >> > any Windows PC and use it. >> > >> > Kevin >> > >> > >> > On 11/25/11, Carly wrote: >> >> Good morning, Kevin, >> >> >> >> What are the specifics, of using NVDA? There are times I >> >> need WindowEyes but it is problematic IE not my machine so NVDA, >> >> would be perfect. >> >> for today, >> >> Car11:39 PM 11/24/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: >> >>>I use NVDA as my primary/main screen reader. There once was a time >> >>>when I did use JAWS, but it's been over a year, and I'm very glad that >> >>>I've stopped using it, and am using NVDA full-time. It's extremely >> >>>fast, accurate, reliable, innovative, non-intrusive, free, has a >> >>>portable version making any Windows PC in the world accessible, and >> >>>developed by blind people. >> >>> >> >>>Kevin >> >>> >> >>>On 11/25/11, Humberto Avila wrote: >> >>> > Thanks for sharing. I will download now. I use JAWS, but this has >> >>> > been >> >>> > my >> >>> > temporary screen reader in case something goes wrong. >> >>> > >> >>> > -----Original Message----- >> >>> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> >>> > Of Kevin Chao >> >>> > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:32 PM >> >>> > To: kevinchao89 >> >>> > Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! >> >>> > >> >>> > http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released >> >>> > NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been released. >> >>> > This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable >> >>> > for >> >>> > production use and is recommended for most users. >> >>> > Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language >> >>> > switching >> >>> > when >> >>> > reading documents with appropriate language information; support for >> >>> > 64 >> >>> > bit >> >>> > Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse >> >>> > mode >> >>> > in >> >>> > Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and >> >>> > freezes; >> >>> > and initial fixes for Windows 8. >> >>> > Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: >> >>> > .Updated documentation. >> >>> > .Updated translations. >> >>> > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> > for >> >>> > nabs-l: >> >>> > >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >> >>> > mail.com >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> > for >> >>> > nabs-l: >> >>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >> >>>nabs-l mailing list >> >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40ea >> rthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 05:56:15 2011 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:56:15 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net> References: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hello there: Ain't no difference if you're black or white, ain't no difference if you're sighted or blind! I think that blind people should not be stressed out about trying to look 100% like a sighted person, and try to display the same face looks and body looks or expressions that the sighted people do. I say this because, A, if I am blind, and I imitate a sighted person's exact looks and body and face expressions, I'm not sure if I look, for example, crooked, or my face is poiting to a different direction, or reacting in a way that might look a little odd to a sighted person. And, B, if we ever do imitate the sighted in their exact moves and imitate their facial expressions 100% right like if we are sighted so as to look like society looks, we would only be doing one half of the work. Think of our brains and ourselves as computer programming. We can have every single sighted algorithm installed on our brains so that the specific "software" (being our minds and thoughts) is capable of triggering all exact facial motions and expressions with our bodies and faces, as in input. We would be capable of doing input, but we are not capable of the output process. Because our eyes can not see, or residually, our "software" (again, as our minds and thoughts) will not be able to interact with what is displayed in others, meaning that, we can not see what others do or what faces or expressions they make. Am I making sense? Or am I being too technical here? I'm pretty sure we are all familiar with these aspects as we all are emailing to this list and we all use computers and have knowledge of hardware and software. Back to being virtually sighted without eyesight. In conclusion, we have all the hardware (our eyes, our body and face) and software (our brains and all the habits that we setup in our mind sets and our thoughts). Yes, a blind person can imitate all the looks 100% of the way, as if he or she is looking like the sighted society. But how is that blind person expected to react, or interact with another sighted person when that sighted person is doing a face, or expression. One example of this: One day one of my cousins who is little said my name. I addressed her as if we were to have a normal conversation. But instead she went, "look look." then there was a very small but sudden pause and then I heard her laughing as if she had done something that appeared to me funny according to my assumption. I again said "what? What is that?" then she laughed again just like the other time. Now, did she do a facial expression or did she try to show me something that was funny through the use of a funny body or facial expression? Yes! But do I know which expression or weird look that was funny? Heck no! why? Because my brain does not support the "output" of seeing and reacting to that funny expression. If my brain was able to support that, I would have laughed along with my cousin. But because I am blind, I do not. Do you know what I'm getting to? My bottom line is: my fellow students, unless there was a revolutionary and technological little device that did the most accurate automated audio description like in the movies, please do not stress out about trying to imitate the sighted population and trying to look like the majority in terms of doing exact body and facial expressions. Relax! Yes, there is the thing with job interviews and formal settings and school settings or professional settings where one has to look great and presentable and look like others by looking in the face when somebody speaks to one, and the like, but no absolute need to try to do the same nonverbal visual face and body expressions and worry about how you look in terms of total expressions and movements like the sighted. Do I make sense? I myself don't want to suffer by worrying about my looks and movements so much, otherwise it pays just 50% of the hard work that will pay off. And where will that other 50% be? Nowhere? Just my 15 cents for what it's worth. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robin Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon those, who EXHIBIT mannerisms of the Blind variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, you like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP with Ol"Sighty and do NOT expect others in "The Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >Bridgit, >Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. >Like you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im >cognitively or developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities >are very different. Those with those disabilities function at a teen or >child level; their body is grown, their mind is not. >It is not their fault, it is the way they are built. And I just loved >your anecdotes to back up your point. > >I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have >been treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its >definitely degrading and frustrating. I think we should change >behaviors that we can; after all a sighted person growing up would be >expected to extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be >treated like everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. > >Ashley > >-----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > >Marc, > >First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! > >However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver >through life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few >family members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I >know a little about it. > >Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >more difficult to navigate through situations. > >I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand >basic information that the average person with no cognitive problem >understand with no effort. When we have physical and sensory >disabilities only, we don't require most information, basic >information, to be broken down and simplified. We're not talking about >Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. > >While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked >the doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This >woman assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't >comprehend information stated to all patients just because I was blind. >Regardless of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, >disabled or not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned >being a 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some >people all ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their >grossly misinformed notions? > >Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if >you don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is >necessarily "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can >present unique barriers that are difficult to hurdle. > >Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, >even with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or >lawyer, and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be >done. It does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even >higher functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the >intellectual capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. >Blindness, however, isn't necessarily holding us back in an >intellectual way. Individual people may question our ability, but we >have the capacity in which to prove how capable we are. Many blind >people face discrimination because of their blindness. In my experience >though, if you present yourself with confidence, look and act polished, >people are more likely to give you an opportunity. If you don't appear >put-together, exhibit mannerisms even considered inappropriate for >sighted people and don't carry yourself with confidence and/or >intelligence, it doesn't matter what your resume says, what >recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, people will be more >wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's reality, dude. > >A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able >to care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a >mere sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at >least to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. > >And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >this issue. > >If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. >You can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. > >You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >but how one handles the barriers of a disability. > >And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response >to my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? >Stop making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of >their disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, >I know some sighted people who have a similar attitude. > >And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >changing minds about our actual abilities. > >Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme >behaviors are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they >are capable of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, >ourselves included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real >problem, instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements >not socially acceptable. > >You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us >quirks and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of >reverse prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't >see, why, once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight >card? I don't consider myself different from anyone else I know other >than I can't use my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end >stereotypes and change negative attitudes, but I don't place >distinctions that, though reverse, perpetuate the idea that we're different. > >The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people >assume, people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world >will show you how complex this is. > >On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >always right, giggle! > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >, Message: 6 >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >From: Marc Workman >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Bridgit wrote, >why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. > >Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >people not to look blind. > >why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually >disabled people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? >The fact is intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually >disabled, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, >put in our path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. > >Ashley wrote, >I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >makes us look worse. > >It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a >blind person. > >I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading >word, is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same >negative attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all >supposed to be fighting against with respect to blindness. > >Bridgit wrote, >Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. > >What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the >attitudes about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? > >Ashley wrote, >Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. > >I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are >not mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that >bothers me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about >blindness that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, >as ugly, as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to >deal with these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like >most people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach >them that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but >that this is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path >is of course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority >than the majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to >the world that is better for everyone. > >I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. > >Cheers, > >Marc > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earth >link.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthl >ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 06:00:08 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 01:00:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! In-Reply-To: References: <422001F99BE74DBFA77C73A8CD6B24C0@HUMBERTOAVILA> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125052746.01cdbc30@earthlink.net> <35D8B6B806CF4EE8A14B77342D0B22A5@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125195145.01d8dca8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: hey does this one have the jaws voice elequence on it? I use one of these and mine has Jaws elequent as the voice. On 11/26/11, Kevin Chao wrote: > NVDA-Project.org > > On 11/25/11, Carly wrote: >> >> Hey, Kevin, >> >> Where do you get it? >> Thank you. >> Car/25/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: >>>Hi Ashley, >>> >>>NVDA portable can be installed onto a USB flash drive, which makes >>>it portable. >>> >>>Kevin >>> >>>On 11/25/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> > how is it portable? >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Kevin Chao >>> > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:25 PM >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! >>> > >>> > Hi Carly >>> > NVDA has a portable version, which allows you to have your >>> > TTS/settings, and entire screen reader with you to connect to any >>> > Windows PC in the world and make it accessible. >>> > >>> > I use this a lot, such as at library, tech lab, school, various other >>> > places, where there are computers. >>> > >>> > It's extremely incredible and amazing that it's possible to walk up to >>> > any Windows PC and use it. >>> > >>> > Kevin >>> > >>> > >>> > On 11/25/11, Carly wrote: >>> >> Good morning, Kevin, >>> >> >>> >> What are the specifics, of using NVDA? There are times I >>> >> need WindowEyes but it is problematic IE not my machine so NVDA, >>> >> would be perfect. >>> >> for today, >>> >> Car11:39 PM 11/24/2011, Kevin Chao wrote: >>> >>>I use NVDA as my primary/main screen reader. There once was a time >>> >>>when I did use JAWS, but it's been over a year, and I'm very glad that >>> >>>I've stopped using it, and am using NVDA full-time. It's extremely >>> >>>fast, accurate, reliable, innovative, non-intrusive, free, has a >>> >>>portable version making any Windows PC in the world accessible, and >>> >>>developed by blind people. >>> >>> >>> >>>Kevin >>> >>> >>> >>>On 11/25/11, Humberto Avila wrote: >>> >>> > Thanks for sharing. I will download now. I use JAWS, but this has >>> >>> > been >>> >>> > my >>> >>> > temporary screen reader in case something goes wrong. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> >>> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>> >>> > Of Kevin Chao >>> >>> > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:32 PM >>> >>> > To: kevinchao89 >>> >>> > Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA 2011.3 Released! >>> >>> > >>> >>> > http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2011.3Released >>> >>> > NV Access is pleased to announce that NVDA 2011.3 has been >>> >>> > released. >>> >>> > This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable >>> >>> > for >>> >>> > production use and is recommended for most users. >>> >>> > Highlights of NVDA 2011.3 include automatic speech language >>> >>> > switching >>> >>> > when >>> >>> > reading documents with appropriate language information; support >>> >>> > for >>> >>> > 64 >>> >>> > bit >>> >>> > Java Runtime Environments; reporting of text formatting in browse >>> >>> > mode >>> >>> > in >>> >>> > Mozilla applications; better handling of application crashes and >>> >>> > freezes; >>> >>> > and initial fixes for Windows 8. >>> >>> > Changes from 2011.3rc1 to 2011.3: >>> >>> > .Updated documentation. >>> >>> > .Updated translations. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> > for >>> >>> > nabs-l: >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >>> >>> > mail.com >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> > for >>> >>> > nabs-l: >>> >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> >>>nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40ea >>> rthlink.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >>> >> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 26 06:10:06 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 01:10:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: c22f3622-d0fc-40bb-8297-5b08dadd0a80@samobile.net I hear you Humberto. What you're saying is that, while we may be able to look and act like sighted people, the fundamental truth is that we're not sighted; there is some information that we don't get because it's not non-visual. So no matter what, we're kinda out anyway; we might be able to look like the sighted, but we may not know exactly when to turn on that program that says "look this way or that way" because we don't always get the cues necessary to activate that programming. Makes sense to me. But I would submit that we have more access to those cues than most people think. But you're still right nonetheless. The fact is that we're blind and that we may be a little different. But that doesn't make us inferior, so why stress about it? And yes, you're quite right that context is important: we should be able to match our context for presentation purposes. But that still doesn't mean we ought to stress about it. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hello there: > Ain't no difference if you're black or white, ain't no difference if you're > sighted or blind! I think that blind people should not be stressed out > about trying to look 100% like a sighted person, and try to display the same > face looks and body looks or expressions that the sighted people do. I say > this because, A, if I am blind, and I imitate a sighted person's exact looks > and body and face expressions, I'm not sure if I look, for example, crooked, > or my face is poiting to a different direction, or reacting in a way that > might look a little odd to a sighted person. And, B, if we ever do imitate > the sighted in their exact moves and imitate their facial expressions 100% > right like if we are sighted so as to look like society looks, we would only > be doing one half of the work. Think of our brains and ourselves as computer > programming. We can have every single sighted algorithm installed on our > brains so that the specific "software" (being our minds and thoughts) is > capable of triggering all exact facial motions and expressions with our > bodies and faces, as in input. We would be capable of doing input, but we > are not capable of the output process. Because our eyes can not see, or > residually, our "software" (again, as our minds and thoughts) will not be > able to interact with what is displayed in others, meaning that, we can not > see what others do or what faces or expressions they make. Am I making > sense? Or am I being too technical here? I'm pretty sure we are all familiar > with these aspects as we all are emailing to this list and we all use > computers and have knowledge of hardware and software. Back to being > virtually sighted without eyesight. In conclusion, we have all the hardware > (our eyes, our body and face) and software (our brains and all the habits > that we setup in our mind sets and our thoughts). Yes, a blind person can > imitate all the looks 100% of the way, as if he or she is looking like the > sighted society. But how is that blind person expected to react, or interact > with another sighted person when that sighted person is doing a face, or > expression. One example of this: > One day one of my cousins who is little said my name. I addressed her as if > we were to have a normal conversation. But instead she went, "look look." > then there was a very small but sudden pause and then I heard her laughing > as if she had done something that appeared to me funny according to my > assumption. I again said "what? What is that?" then she laughed again just > like the other time. Now, did she do a facial expression or did she try to > show me something that was funny through the use of a funny body or facial > expression? Yes! But do I know which expression or weird look that was > funny? Heck no! why? Because my brain does not support the "output" of > seeing and reacting to that funny expression. If my brain was able to > support that, I would have laughed along with my cousin. But because I am > blind, I do not. Do you know what I'm getting to? > My bottom line is: my fellow students, unless there was a revolutionary and > technological little device that did the most accurate automated audio > description like in the movies, please do not stress out about trying to > imitate the sighted population and trying to look like the majority in terms > of doing exact body and facial expressions. Relax! Yes, there is the thing > with job interviews and formal settings and school settings or professional > settings where one has to look great and presentable and look like others by > looking in the face when somebody speaks to one, and the like, but no > absolute need to try to do the same nonverbal visual face and body > expressions and worry about how you look in terms of total expressions and > movements like the sighted. Do I make sense? I myself don't want to suffer > by worrying about my looks and movements so much, otherwise it pays just 50% > of the hard work that will pay off. And where will that other 50% be? > Nowhere? > Just my 15 cents for what it's worth. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Robin > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:05 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, > STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon those, who EXHIBIT > mannerisms of the Blind variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, you > like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP with Ol"Sighty and do NOT > expect others in "The Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. > ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a > Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. > At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >> Bridgit, >> Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. >> Like you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im >> cognitively or developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities >> are very different. Those with those disabilities function at a teen or >> child level; their body is grown, their mind is not. >> It is not their fault, it is the way they are built. And I just loved >> your anecdotes to back up your point. >> I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >> assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have >> been treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its >> definitely degrading and frustrating. I think we should change >> behaviors that we can; after all a sighted person growing up would be >> expected to extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be >> treated like everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> Marc, >> First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >> However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >> negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >> is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >> disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver >> through life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few >> family members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I >> know a little about it. >> Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >> physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >> disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >> more difficult to navigate through situations. >> I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand >> basic information that the average person with no cognitive problem >> understand with no effort. When we have physical and sensory >> disabilities only, we don't require most information, basic >> information, to be broken down and simplified. We're not talking about >> Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings intellect here, but the average intellectual > capacity most of us have. >> While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >> test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >> understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >> my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >> was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >> few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >> understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked >> the doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This >> woman assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't >> comprehend information stated to all patients just because I was blind. >> Regardless of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, >> disabled or not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned >> being a 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some >> people all ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their >> grossly misinformed notions? >> Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >> intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >> either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >> something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >> blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if >> you don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is >> necessarily "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can >> present unique barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >> Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >> parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >> general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, >> even with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or >> lawyer, and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be >> done. It does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even >> higher functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the >> intellectual capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. >> Blindness, however, isn't necessarily holding us back in an >> intellectual way. Individual people may question our ability, but we >> have the capacity in which to prove how capable we are. Many blind >> people face discrimination because of their blindness. In my experience >> though, if you present yourself with confidence, look and act polished, >> people are more likely to give you an opportunity. If you don't appear >> put-together, exhibit mannerisms even considered inappropriate for >> sighted people and don't carry yourself with confidence and/or >> intelligence, it doesn't matter what your resume says, what >> recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, people will be more >> wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's reality, dude. >> A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >> early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >> since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >> aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >> award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >> thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able >> to care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a >> mere sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at >> least to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. >> And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >> behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >> now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >> unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >> attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >> Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >> this issue. >> If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >> makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >> not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >> we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >> only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >> disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. >> You can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >> You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >> with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >> but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >> And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >> even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response >> to my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >> demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? >> Stop making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >> former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >> with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >> had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >> I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >> something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of >> their disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, >> I know some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >> And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >> engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >> correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >> changing minds about our actual abilities. >> Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >> but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme >> behaviors are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they >> are capable of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, >> ourselves included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real >> problem, instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements >> not socially acceptable. >> You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >> sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us >> quirks and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of >> reverse prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't >> see, why, once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight >> card? I don't consider myself different from anyone else I know other >> than I can't use my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end >> stereotypes and change negative attitudes, but I don't place >> distinctions that, though reverse, perpetuate the idea that we're > different. >> The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >> established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >> or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people >> assume, people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world >> will show you how complex this is. >> On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >> always right, giggle! >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> , Message: 6 >> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >> From: Marc Workman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Bridgit wrote, >> why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >> Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >> people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >> society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >> disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >> Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >> disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >> people not to look blind. >> why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >> people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually >> disabled people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? >> The fact is intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually >> disabled, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, >> put in our path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >> Ashley wrote, >> I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >> it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >> Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >> makes us look worse. >> It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >> delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >> rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >> disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a >> blind person. >> I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >> "retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading >> word, is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same >> negative attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all >> supposed to be fighting against with respect to blindness. >> Bridgit wrote, >> Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >> appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >> What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >> decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >> this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >> appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >> when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >> talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >> to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >> people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >> the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the >> attitudes about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? >> Ashley wrote, >> Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >> your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >> I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are >> not mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that >> bothers me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about >> blindness that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, >> as ugly, as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to >> deal with these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like >> most people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach >> them that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but >> that this is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path >> is of course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority >> than the majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to >> the world that is better for everyone. >> I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >> celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >> Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >> Cheers, >> Marc >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earth >> link.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthl >> ink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 16:26:24 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:26:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: 4adcff4c-0977-4ef9-8396-f8f9cae753f1@samobile.net References: 4adcff4c-0977-4ef9-8396-f8f9cae753f1@samobile.net Message-ID: how many cells is your briallant display? Is it portable? How large are those keyboards? I saw a small one built into my father's blackberry and I could never press keys that small effectively; I got small fingers but when I feel a key, the edge of my finger is on another key. I just think it would be too hard to type on. But if you can use a portable keyboard, that is nice. Maybe the keys are spaced apart like a traditional pc keyboard. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:54 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Hey there. I don't use an iPad, but I use an iPhone for my note taking and the like. I pair it with a folding Nokia SU-8W keyboard and a Brailliant display. Now, VR did pay for the display and the keyboard, but i paid for the iPhone. I could have paid for the keyboard, but at the time, I didn't have the money. I opted for this setup because, if the display needs repair, I can still use the iPhone with the keyboard. If the keyboard needs repair, I can still use the phone and the display; it might be slow going with inputing text, but it can be done (I can always record if I really get stuck). If the iPhone goes dead, I can always replace it and my stuff will be in the cloud. Sure, the iPhone is still quite expensive, but it is less expensive than the blindness products are. I also choose this setup because I can decide when I'll use the keyboard and display, but i'll always have my info on the go. Finally, it's easier to share information across platforms and iOS devices tend to stay with current trends in technology much more than blindness products tend to. But it's also the principle of the thing: I want to support technologies that use universal design rather than supporting a system that keeps blind people having to rely on rehab for their most basic needs. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was > thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an > iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've > found. > http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html > Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR > purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 16:27:54 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:27:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <61E80D343326402AB621F3518F07EE9A@hometwxakonvzn> Koby, do you use an Iphone or Ipad? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koby Cox" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > Yes. > Koby. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" > wrote: > >> Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> >>> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard to >>> repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT >>> Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >>> Beth >>> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "RJ Sandefur" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:08:10 -0500 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was >>> thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an >>> iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've >>> found. >>> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >>> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >>> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>> se%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 16:32:30 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:32:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5084C6EAFAEF45AAA27016735DC03ED6@OwnerPC> But I like the blindness notetaker because I can read and write braille on it. I think using a touch screen would require a lot of memory and spatial awareness. I already have to memorize where things like end, send and okay are on my basic cell phone! But if an IOS devices works for someone go ahead; it’s a lot more portable than a heavy braille notetaker. I wonder what braille displays you can use with those IPhones and IOS devices. Its cool that we have smaller, portable braille displays and keyboards now. How neat to have those options. The only braille displays I saw were the large 40 cell and 80 cell displays, although I am aware of smaller ones. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:56 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Yes, I think that is why some many blind people are using iPhones and iPads as their personal note taking and at school too. I think that these mainstream IOS devices with voiceover will be the nearby future of the accessibility for the blind. Since those assistive technology products made specifically for the blind are so expensive, blind people are going to shift to those devices, since they come with screen reading accessibility out of the box. Plus, they are not as expensive. Additionally, since Braille displays are not as expensive as note takers, some might chose the option to add a Braille display in combination to their IOS device instead of purchasing those major products such as Pacmate and Braille Note. If the trend continues like I mentioned, the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies better take notice of this and see fit. Besides, it would benefit their programs and services as well, and with this economy (if it continues to be bad), they will not have to suffer budget cuts by trying to help individuals with their note takers because they are so expensive. So, Humanware and freedom Scientific, I'm sorry if I offend you at all, I am not trying to be mean. Otherwise don't listen please!!!! (huge smile) P.S. wondering if this listserve is that much public? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Koby Cox Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Yes. Koby. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > >> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard to repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >> Beth >> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. >> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >> se%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >> ur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.co > m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 16:36:36 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:36:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net> References: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net> Message-ID: If you want to exhibit odd behavior, you might change your mind when you try and get a job. I hope they discourage this behavior at NFB centers. When I read Jim Omvig's book partially, one ingredient of training was to blend in and appear acceptable. And BTW, its not just about appearance. If you rock, I find it harder to hear people as their voice keeps moving. Also, if they fail to look at me, their voice sounds muffled as they look down. Sorry to be blunt and sound imposing, but its reality. If you don't agree, fine, but I suspect no one will want to hire someone who does not act socially appropriate. -----Original Message----- From: Robin Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:04 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon those, who EXHIBIT mannerisms of the Blind variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, you like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP with Ol"Sighty and do NOT expect others in "The Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >Bridgit, >Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. Like >you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im cognitively or >developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities are very different. >Those with those disabilities function at a teen or child level; their body >is grown, their mind is not. It is not their fault, it is the way they are >built. And I just loved your anecdotes to back up your point. > >I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have been >treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its definitely >degrading and frustrating. I think we should change behaviors that we can; >after all a sighted person growing up would be expected to extinguish >these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be treated like everyone else, >then we should follow those same rules. > >Ashley > >-----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > >Marc, > >First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! > >However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >little about it. > >Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >more difficult to navigate through situations. > >I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. > >While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >misinformed notions? > >Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >"worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >barriers that are difficult to hurdle. > >Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >reality, dude. > >A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. > >And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >this issue. > >If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. > >You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >but how one handles the barriers of a disability. > >And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >some sighted people who have a similar attitude. > >And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >changing minds about our actual abilities. > >Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >socially acceptable. > >You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >perpetuate the idea that we're different. > >The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >you how complex this is. > >On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >always right, giggle! > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >, Message: 6 >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >From: Marc Workman >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Bridgit wrote, >why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. > >Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >people not to look blind. > >why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. > >Ashley wrote, >I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >makes us look worse. > >It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >person. > >I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >fighting against with respect to blindness. > >Bridgit wrote, >Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. > >What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? > >Ashley wrote, >Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. > >I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >that is better for everyone. > >I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. > >Cheers, > >Marc > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 16:49:15 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:49:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: c22f3622-d0fc-40bb-8297-5b08dadd0a80@samobile.net References: c22f3622-d0fc-40bb-8297-5b08dadd0a80@samobile.net Message-ID: Jedi, Since you plan to be a cane travel instructor, I would think that such odd behavior as rocking would be discouraged. I know my O&M teacher discouraged it growing up. She also encouraged me to face the person I spoke to. Yes we are blind and shouldn't hide that fact. But should we look different just because we didn't learn body language? I think not. Kids usually learn body language by observation, and for us we need to be told it since we cannot learn visually. You as a teacher can help that process. You will be a role model. Now if an adult is reminded not to do that behavior and still does, there is not much you can do about it. But I believe blind adults should be aware of inappropriate behavior, so they can make a decision what to do. I engage in some unacceptable behaviors at home like talking to myself, like thinking out loud, rocking, and popping huge bubbles with gum. But I know what was appropriate and chose to do them where no one would see me doing it in private. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 1:10 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions I hear you Humberto. What you're saying is that, while we may be able to look and act like sighted people, the fundamental truth is that we're not sighted; there is some information that we don't get because it's not non-visual. So no matter what, we're kinda out anyway; we might be able to look like the sighted, but we may not know exactly when to turn on that program that says "look this way or that way" because we don't always get the cues necessary to activate that programming. Makes sense to me. But I would submit that we have more access to those cues than most people think. But you're still right nonetheless. The fact is that we're blind and that we may be a little different. But that doesn't make us inferior, so why stress about it? And yes, you're quite right that context is important: we should be able to match our context for presentation purposes. But that still doesn't mean we ought to stress about it. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hello there: > Ain't no difference if you're black or white, ain't no difference if > you're > sighted or blind! I think that blind people should not be stressed out > about trying to look 100% like a sighted person, and try to display the > same > face looks and body looks or expressions that the sighted people do. I say > this because, A, if I am blind, and I imitate a sighted person's exact > looks > and body and face expressions, I'm not sure if I look, for example, > crooked, > or my face is poiting to a different direction, or reacting in a way that > might look a little odd to a sighted person. And, B, if we ever do imitate > the sighted in their exact moves and imitate their facial expressions 100% > right like if we are sighted so as to look like society looks, we would > only > be doing one half of the work. Think of our brains and ourselves as > computer > programming. We can have every single sighted algorithm installed on our > brains so that the specific "software" (being our minds and thoughts) is > capable of triggering all exact facial motions and expressions with our > bodies and faces, as in input. We would be capable of doing input, but we > are not capable of the output process. Because our eyes can not see, or > residually, our "software" (again, as our minds and thoughts) will not be > able to interact with what is displayed in others, meaning that, we can > not > see what others do or what faces or expressions they make. Am I making > sense? Or am I being too technical here? I'm pretty sure we are all > familiar > with these aspects as we all are emailing to this list and we all use > computers and have knowledge of hardware and software. Back to being > virtually sighted without eyesight. In conclusion, we have all the > hardware > (our eyes, our body and face) and software (our brains and all the habits > that we setup in our mind sets and our thoughts). Yes, a blind person can > imitate all the looks 100% of the way, as if he or she is looking like the > sighted society. But how is that blind person expected to react, or > interact > with another sighted person when that sighted person is doing a face, or > expression. One example of this: > One day one of my cousins who is little said my name. I addressed her as > if > we were to have a normal conversation. But instead she went, "look look." > then there was a very small but sudden pause and then I heard her laughing > as if she had done something that appeared to me funny according to my > assumption. I again said "what? What is that?" then she laughed again just > like the other time. Now, did she do a facial expression or did she try to > show me something that was funny through the use of a funny body or facial > expression? Yes! But do I know which expression or weird look that was > funny? Heck no! why? Because my brain does not support the "output" of > seeing and reacting to that funny expression. If my brain was able to > support that, I would have laughed along with my cousin. But because I am > blind, I do not. Do you know what I'm getting to? > My bottom line is: my fellow students, unless there was a revolutionary > and > technological little device that did the most accurate automated audio > description like in the movies, please do not stress out about trying to > imitate the sighted population and trying to look like the majority in > terms > of doing exact body and facial expressions. Relax! Yes, there is the thing > with job interviews and formal settings and school settings or > professional > settings where one has to look great and presentable and look like others > by > looking in the face when somebody speaks to one, and the like, but no > absolute need to try to do the same nonverbal visual face and body > expressions and worry about how you look in terms of total expressions and > movements like the sighted. Do I make sense? I myself don't want to suffer > by worrying about my looks and movements so much, otherwise it pays just > 50% > of the hard work that will pay off. And where will that other 50% be? > Nowhere? > Just my 15 cents for what it's worth. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Robin > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:05 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, > STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon those, who EXHIBIT > mannerisms of the Blind variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, you > like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP with Ol"Sighty and do NOT > expect others in "The Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. > ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a > Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. > At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >> Bridgit, >> Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. >> Like you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im >> cognitively or developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities >> are very different. Those with those disabilities function at a teen or >> child level; their body is grown, their mind is not. >> It is not their fault, it is the way they are built. And I just loved >> your anecdotes to back up your point. >> I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >> assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have >> been treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its >> definitely degrading and frustrating. I think we should change >> behaviors that we can; after all a sighted person growing up would be >> expected to extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be >> treated like everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> Marc, >> First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >> However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >> negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >> is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >> disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver >> through life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few >> family members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I >> know a little about it. >> Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >> physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >> disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >> more difficult to navigate through situations. >> I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand >> basic information that the average person with no cognitive problem >> understand with no effort. When we have physical and sensory >> disabilities only, we don't require most information, basic >> information, to be broken down and simplified. We're not talking about >> Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings intellect here, but the average >> intellectual > capacity most of us have. >> While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >> test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >> understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >> my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >> was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >> few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >> understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked >> the doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This >> woman assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't >> comprehend information stated to all patients just because I was blind. >> Regardless of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, >> disabled or not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned >> being a 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some >> people all ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their >> grossly misinformed notions? >> Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >> intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >> either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >> something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >> blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if >> you don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is >> necessarily "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can >> present unique barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >> Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >> parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >> general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, >> even with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or >> lawyer, and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be >> done. It does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even >> higher functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the >> intellectual capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. >> Blindness, however, isn't necessarily holding us back in an >> intellectual way. Individual people may question our ability, but we >> have the capacity in which to prove how capable we are. Many blind >> people face discrimination because of their blindness. In my experience >> though, if you present yourself with confidence, look and act polished, >> people are more likely to give you an opportunity. If you don't appear >> put-together, exhibit mannerisms even considered inappropriate for >> sighted people and don't carry yourself with confidence and/or >> intelligence, it doesn't matter what your resume says, what >> recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, people will be more >> wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's reality, dude. >> A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >> early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >> since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >> aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >> award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >> thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able >> to care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a >> mere sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at >> least to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. >> And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >> behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >> now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >> unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >> attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >> Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >> this issue. >> If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >> makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >> not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >> we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >> only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >> disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. >> You can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >> You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >> with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >> but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >> And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >> even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response >> to my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >> demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? >> Stop making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >> former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >> with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >> had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >> I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >> something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of >> their disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, >> I know some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >> And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >> engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >> correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >> changing minds about our actual abilities. >> Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >> but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme >> behaviors are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they >> are capable of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, >> ourselves included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real >> problem, instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements >> not socially acceptable. >> You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >> sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us >> quirks and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of >> reverse prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't >> see, why, once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight >> card? I don't consider myself different from anyone else I know other >> than I can't use my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end >> stereotypes and change negative attitudes, but I don't place >> distinctions that, though reverse, perpetuate the idea that we're > different. >> The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >> established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >> or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people >> assume, people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world >> will show you how complex this is. >> On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >> always right, giggle! >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> , Message: 6 >> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >> From: Marc Workman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Bridgit wrote, >> why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >> Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >> people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >> society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >> disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >> Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >> disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >> people not to look blind. >> why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >> people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually >> disabled people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? >> The fact is intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually >> disabled, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, >> put in our path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >> Ashley wrote, >> I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >> it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >> Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >> makes us look worse. >> It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >> delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >> rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >> disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a >> blind person. >> I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >> "retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading >> word, is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same >> negative attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all >> supposed to be fighting against with respect to blindness. >> Bridgit wrote, >> Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >> appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >> What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >> decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >> this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >> appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >> when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >> talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >> to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >> people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >> the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the >> attitudes about women and minorities that have been challenged and >> changed? >> Ashley wrote, >> Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >> your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >> I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are >> not mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that >> bothers me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about >> blindness that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, >> as ugly, as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to >> deal with these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like >> most people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach >> them that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but >> that this is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path >> is of course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority >> than the majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to >> the world that is better for everyone. >> I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >> celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >> Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >> Cheers, >> Marc >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earth >> link.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthl >> ink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From hope.paulos at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 16:52:56 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:52:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com> <5084C6EAFAEF45AAA27016735DC03ED6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <8747CBE63FE2452FA6131D4602CAA56D@Espy> I have a Seika braille display and a netbook and it works great. ALso have an ipod touch and am thinking about getting an iphone. You don't have to use the touch screen if you have a bluetooth keyboard. You just have to remember the keystrokes as you would on a PC. I'd go with the IOS over blindness products every time if I had the chance. Hope Paulos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > But I like the blindness notetaker because I can read and write braille on > it. I think using a > touch screen would require a lot of memory and spatial awareness. I > already have to memorize where things like end, send and okay are on my > basic cell phone! But if an IOS devices works for someone go ahead; it’s a > lot more portable than a heavy braille notetaker. > I wonder what braille displays you can use with those IPhones and IOS > devices. > Its cool that we have smaller, portable braille displays and keyboards > now. > How neat to have those options. The only braille displays I saw were the > large 40 cell and 80 cell displays, although I am aware of smaller ones. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:56 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > Yes, I think that is why some many blind people are using iPhones and > iPads > as their personal note taking and at school too. I think that these > mainstream IOS devices with voiceover will be the nearby future of the > accessibility for the blind. Since those assistive technology products > made > specifically for the blind are so expensive, blind people are going to > shift > to those devices, since they come with screen reading accessibility out of > the box. Plus, they are not as expensive. Additionally, since Braille > displays are not as expensive as note takers, some might chose the option > to > add a Braille display in combination to their IOS device instead of > purchasing those major products such as Pacmate and Braille Note. If the > trend continues like I mentioned, the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies > better take notice of this and see fit. Besides, it would benefit their > programs and services as well, and with this economy (if it continues to > be > bad), they will not have to suffer budget cuts by trying to help > individuals > with their note takers because they are so expensive. > So, Humanware and freedom Scientific, I'm sorry if I offend you at all, I > am > not trying to be mean. Otherwise don't listen please!!!! (huge smile) > > P.S. wondering if this listserve is that much public? > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Koby Cox > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > Yes. > Koby. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" > > wrote: > >> Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> >>> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard to > repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT > Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >>> Beth >>> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "RJ Sandefur" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was > thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an > iPad, > or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. >>> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >>> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >>> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>> se%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >>> ur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.co >> m > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 16:54:18 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:54:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC><7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7D6C21453C784C93ABAD9AAC67BC28BD@OwnerPC> but you can still hear some facial expressions. I can also hear if someone is looking down or at me if they speak. Some nonverbal expressions we cannot see and need explanation. I remember an incident like you described happening to me with a family member as well. Just saying it is not accurate to say a blind person cannot observe body language because we can to some extent. I also see some with my tunnel vision. But I'm explaining what I perceive nonvisually because you all writing in are totally blind. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:56 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Hello there: Ain't no difference if you're black or white, ain't no difference if you're sighted or blind! I think that blind people should not be stressed out about trying to look 100% like a sighted person, and try to display the same face looks and body looks or expressions that the sighted people do. I say this because, A, if I am blind, and I imitate a sighted person's exact looks and body and face expressions, I'm not sure if I look, for example, crooked, or my face is poiting to a different direction, or reacting in a way that might look a little odd to a sighted person. And, B, if we ever do imitate the sighted in their exact moves and imitate their facial expressions 100% right like if we are sighted so as to look like society looks, we would only be doing one half of the work. Think of our brains and ourselves as computer programming. We can have every single sighted algorithm installed on our brains so that the specific "software" (being our minds and thoughts) is capable of triggering all exact facial motions and expressions with our bodies and faces, as in input. We would be capable of doing input, but we are not capable of the output process. Because our eyes can not see, or residually, our "software" (again, as our minds and thoughts) will not be able to interact with what is displayed in others, meaning that, we can not see what others do or what faces or expressions they make. Am I making sense? Or am I being too technical here? I'm pretty sure we are all familiar with these aspects as we all are emailing to this list and we all use computers and have knowledge of hardware and software. Back to being virtually sighted without eyesight. In conclusion, we have all the hardware (our eyes, our body and face) and software (our brains and all the habits that we setup in our mind sets and our thoughts). Yes, a blind person can imitate all the looks 100% of the way, as if he or she is looking like the sighted society. But how is that blind person expected to react, or interact with another sighted person when that sighted person is doing a face, or expression. One example of this: One day one of my cousins who is little said my name. I addressed her as if we were to have a normal conversation. But instead she went, "look look." then there was a very small but sudden pause and then I heard her laughing as if she had done something that appeared to me funny according to my assumption. I again said "what? What is that?" then she laughed again just like the other time. Now, did she do a facial expression or did she try to show me something that was funny through the use of a funny body or facial expression? Yes! But do I know which expression or weird look that was funny? Heck no! why? Because my brain does not support the "output" of seeing and reacting to that funny expression. If my brain was able to support that, I would have laughed along with my cousin. But because I am blind, I do not. Do you know what I'm getting to? My bottom line is: my fellow students, unless there was a revolutionary and technological little device that did the most accurate automated audio description like in the movies, please do not stress out about trying to imitate the sighted population and trying to look like the majority in terms of doing exact body and facial expressions. Relax! Yes, there is the thing with job interviews and formal settings and school settings or professional settings where one has to look great and presentable and look like others by looking in the face when somebody speaks to one, and the like, but no absolute need to try to do the same nonverbal visual face and body expressions and worry about how you look in terms of total expressions and movements like the sighted. Do I make sense? I myself don't want to suffer by worrying about my looks and movements so much, otherwise it pays just 50% of the hard work that will pay off. And where will that other 50% be? Nowhere? Just my 15 cents for what it's worth. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robin Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon those, who EXHIBIT mannerisms of the Blind variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, you like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP with Ol"Sighty and do NOT expect others in "The Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >Bridgit, >Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. >Like you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im >cognitively or developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities >are very different. Those with those disabilities function at a teen or >child level; their body is grown, their mind is not. >It is not their fault, it is the way they are built. And I just loved >your anecdotes to back up your point. > >I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have >been treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its >definitely degrading and frustrating. I think we should change >behaviors that we can; after all a sighted person growing up would be >expected to extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be >treated like everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. > >Ashley > >-----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > >Marc, > >First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! > >However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver >through life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few >family members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I >know a little about it. > >Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >more difficult to navigate through situations. > >I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand >basic information that the average person with no cognitive problem >understand with no effort. When we have physical and sensory >disabilities only, we don't require most information, basic >information, to be broken down and simplified. We're not talking about >Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. > >While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked >the doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This >woman assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't >comprehend information stated to all patients just because I was blind. >Regardless of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, >disabled or not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned >being a 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some >people all ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their >grossly misinformed notions? > >Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if >you don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is >necessarily "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can >present unique barriers that are difficult to hurdle. > >Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, >even with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or >lawyer, and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be >done. It does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even >higher functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the >intellectual capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. >Blindness, however, isn't necessarily holding us back in an >intellectual way. Individual people may question our ability, but we >have the capacity in which to prove how capable we are. Many blind >people face discrimination because of their blindness. In my experience >though, if you present yourself with confidence, look and act polished, >people are more likely to give you an opportunity. If you don't appear >put-together, exhibit mannerisms even considered inappropriate for >sighted people and don't carry yourself with confidence and/or >intelligence, it doesn't matter what your resume says, what >recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, people will be more >wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's reality, dude. > >A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able >to care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a >mere sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at >least to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. > >And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >this issue. > >If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. >You can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. > >You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >but how one handles the barriers of a disability. > >And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response >to my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? >Stop making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of >their disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, >I know some sighted people who have a similar attitude. > >And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >changing minds about our actual abilities. > >Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme >behaviors are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they >are capable of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, >ourselves included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real >problem, instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements >not socially acceptable. > >You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us >quirks and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of >reverse prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't >see, why, once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight >card? I don't consider myself different from anyone else I know other >than I can't use my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end >stereotypes and change negative attitudes, but I don't place >distinctions that, though reverse, perpetuate the idea that we're different. > >The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people >assume, people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world >will show you how complex this is. > >On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >always right, giggle! > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >, Message: 6 >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >From: Marc Workman >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Bridgit wrote, >why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. > >Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >people not to look blind. > >why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually >disabled people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? >The fact is intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually >disabled, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, >put in our path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. > >Ashley wrote, >I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >makes us look worse. > >It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a >blind person. > >I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading >word, is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same >negative attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all >supposed to be fighting against with respect to blindness. > >Bridgit wrote, >Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. > >What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the >attitudes about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? > >Ashley wrote, >Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. > >I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are >not mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that >bothers me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about >blindness that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, >as ugly, as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to >deal with these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like >most people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach >them that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but >that this is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path >is of course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority >than the majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to >the world that is better for everyone. > >I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. > >Cheers, > >Marc > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earth >link.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthl >ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 17:00:09 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:00:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com><5084C6EAFAEF45AAA27016735DC03ED6@OwnerPC> <8747CBE63FE2452FA6131D4602CAA56D@Espy> Message-ID: Hope, how do you know where you are on the Ipod touch? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hope Paulos" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >I have a Seika braille display and a netbook and it works great. ALso have >an ipod touch and am thinking about getting an iphone. You don't have to >use the touch screen if you have a bluetooth keyboard. You just have to >remember the keystrokes as you would on a PC. I'd go with the IOS over >blindness products every time if I had the chance. > Hope Paulos > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:32 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > >> But I like the blindness notetaker because I can read and write braille >> on it. I think using a >> touch screen would require a lot of memory and spatial awareness. I >> already have to memorize where things like end, send and okay are on my >> basic cell phone! But if an IOS devices works for someone go ahead; it’s >> a lot more portable than a heavy braille notetaker. >> I wonder what braille displays you can use with those IPhones and IOS >> devices. >> Its cool that we have smaller, portable braille displays and keyboards >> now. >> How neat to have those options. The only braille displays I saw were the >> large 40 cell and 80 cell displays, although I am aware of smaller ones. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Humberto Avila >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:56 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> Yes, I think that is why some many blind people are using iPhones and >> iPads >> as their personal note taking and at school too. I think that these >> mainstream IOS devices with voiceover will be the nearby future of the >> accessibility for the blind. Since those assistive technology products >> made >> specifically for the blind are so expensive, blind people are going to >> shift >> to those devices, since they come with screen reading accessibility out >> of >> the box. Plus, they are not as expensive. Additionally, since Braille >> displays are not as expensive as note takers, some might chose the option >> to >> add a Braille display in combination to their IOS device instead of >> purchasing those major products such as Pacmate and Braille Note. If the >> trend continues like I mentioned, the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies >> better take notice of this and see fit. Besides, it would benefit their >> programs and services as well, and with this economy (if it continues to >> be >> bad), they will not have to suffer budget cuts by trying to help >> individuals >> with their note takers because they are so expensive. >> So, Humanware and freedom Scientific, I'm sorry if I offend you at all, I >> am >> not trying to be mean. Otherwise don't listen please!!!! (huge smile) >> >> P.S. wondering if this listserve is that much public? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Koby Cox >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:39 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> Yes. >> Koby. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> >>>> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard >>>> to >> repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT >> Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >>>> Beth >>>> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "RJ Sandefur" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>>> >>>> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was >> thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an >> iPad, >> or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. >>>> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >>>> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >>>> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>> se%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >>>> ur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.co >>> m >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 17:05:31 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:05:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Cheerleading & dance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bridgit, Your description of cheerleading sounds right. The high school team did more basic cheers and some dances where as college teams do more gymnist moves from what I've observed. You were not blind when cheerleading, right? I'd be curious to know if a blind person did that? You would have to have a willing coach to be hands on and a guide for running. It could be done though. And as you said, it’s a great thing for a college application Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:33 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Cheerleading & dance With ballet, if dancing en Pointe, I've also heard of feet bleeding, soreness and pain. A friend of mine ended up with gnarled feet, and a lot of us experienced minor aches at times, but I've never met anyone whose feet bled. If you dance professionally it may happen since you dance for literally hours each day, or if you don't take care of your feet, or properly wrap them before dancing, bleeding could happen. Dance is very physical and can be a stress on the body no matter the type of dance, but ballet, though beautiful to watch, takes precision and tons of practice. As I said before, your body has to adjust to positions that aren't always natural. It takes so much control and strength. Dance doesn't necessarily help with cheerleading, though it doesn't hurt either. It depends on what a particular squad does. Some cheerleaders do incorporate dance into routines, others not really. Most focus more on acrobatic-like routines. It also depends on what level of cheerleading it is. High school cheerleaders tend to just do simple routines and cheers, though there are plenty of high school cheerleading squads that compete, and they will incorporate dance and gymnastics into routines. College cheerleaders usually are gymnast and do more acrobatics than anything else, though some schools don't, but for the most part, college level cheerleading requires a strong background in gymnastics. Professional cheerleaders are heavy on the dance aspect. Most professional cheerleaders have dance backgrounds. Dancing, as you mentioned, does help with balance along with strengthening and toning so it can definitely can be helpful for athletes. In fact, many professional athletes such as football players, tennis players and hockey players, just to list a few, take dance, ballet in particular, to help with balance and endurance. I enjoyed cheerleading at first, but half way through the school year, all the politics made it not fun at all. Girls were upset with choice of captains, me being one; some girls were upset with choice of pep rally routines. My sister and I, being the only girls on the squad with dance backgrounds, were asked by our coach to choreograph dance routines and teach them to the squad. A lot of the girls wanted more club style dancing incorporated in, keep in mind this was the late 90's, smile. And we had so many clicks within our cheer squad alone it was ridiculous. I should probably explain that we had 20 girls on the squad, the largest squad in years for my high school which usually only had around 12 to 15 girls selected each year. So cheering itself I enjoyed, and my experience shouldn't cloud the judgment of others possibly considering cheering since my issues were specific to my squad. Cheering can look good on college applications since universities consider extra-curricular activities and volunteer work. I think it's important to participate in extra-curricular activities whether it be sports, music, after-school groups. It just helps to make a more well-rounded person. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 21 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:57:59 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movement andexpression Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original You are write about ballet being so much more technical, at least I assumed and it is good your feet never bled, I have heard horer stories about it where girls have to bandage their feet every nite. I bet you were adorible at 4 dancing I am trying to get my niece in to it. She wants to do it so bad but money is always an issue. I never got in to cheerleeting, I was more of a tom boy I guess I joind the wrestling team and that is about as far away from dance as you can get. Oddly enough dance helped the wrestling though in terms of balance, coordination, and speed. Also I think dance gives you a better sence of how the body works and that was to my advantage. Did you find cheerleeting fun? Was the dance background helpful in rooteens and such? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 17:08:40 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:08:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: <8747CBE63FE2452FA6131D4602CAA56D@Espy> References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com><5084C6EAFAEF45AAA27016735DC03ED6@OwnerPC> <8747CBE63FE2452FA6131D4602CAA56D@Espy> Message-ID: <557831F5343C4A74A0AB3D6B4F8D3128@OwnerPC> Hope, Oh, I wasn't aware you could substitute a bluetooth keyboard for the touch screen; I thought you could type on the keyboard but still needed the screen. So you're saying you can use the keyboard with voice over, and operate it as you would a computer then? How many cells is your display? Wish I had one! they're so expensive! Good to know and maybe I might get an ipad or Ipod touch then. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hope Paulos Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:52 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products I have a Seika braille display and a netbook and it works great. ALso have an ipod touch and am thinking about getting an iphone. You don't have to use the touch screen if you have a bluetooth keyboard. You just have to remember the keystrokes as you would on a PC. I'd go with the IOS over blindness products every time if I had the chance. Hope Paulos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > But I like the blindness notetaker because I can read and write braille on > it. I think using a > touch screen would require a lot of memory and spatial awareness. I > already have to memorize where things like end, send and okay are on my > basic cell phone! But if an IOS devices works for someone go ahead; it’s a > lot more portable than a heavy braille notetaker. > I wonder what braille displays you can use with those IPhones and IOS > devices. > Its cool that we have smaller, portable braille displays and keyboards > now. > How neat to have those options. The only braille displays I saw were the > large 40 cell and 80 cell displays, although I am aware of smaller ones. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:56 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > Yes, I think that is why some many blind people are using iPhones and > iPads > as their personal note taking and at school too. I think that these > mainstream IOS devices with voiceover will be the nearby future of the > accessibility for the blind. Since those assistive technology products > made > specifically for the blind are so expensive, blind people are going to > shift > to those devices, since they come with screen reading accessibility out of > the box. Plus, they are not as expensive. Additionally, since Braille > displays are not as expensive as note takers, some might chose the option > to > add a Braille display in combination to their IOS device instead of > purchasing those major products such as Pacmate and Braille Note. If the > trend continues like I mentioned, the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies > better take notice of this and see fit. Besides, it would benefit their > programs and services as well, and with this economy (if it continues to > be > bad), they will not have to suffer budget cuts by trying to help > individuals > with their note takers because they are so expensive. > So, Humanware and freedom Scientific, I'm sorry if I offend you at all, I > am > not trying to be mean. Otherwise don't listen please!!!! (huge smile) > > P.S. wondering if this listserve is that much public? > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Koby Cox > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > Yes. > Koby. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" > > wrote: > >> Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> >>> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard to > repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT > Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >>> Beth >>> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "RJ Sandefur" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was > thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an > iPad, > or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. >>> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >>> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >>> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>> se%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >>> ur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.co >> m > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kobycox at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 17:21:05 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:21:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: <61E80D343326402AB621F3518F07EE9A@hometwxakonvzn> References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com> <61E80D343326402AB621F3518F07EE9A@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: I use a iPhone. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 26, 2011, at 10:27 AM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > Koby, do you use an Iphone or Ipad? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Koby Cox" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:38 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > >> Yes. >> Koby. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: >> >>> Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> >>>> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard to repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >>>> Beth >>>> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "RJ Sandefur" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> Date sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:08:10 -0500 >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>>> >>>> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. >>>> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >>>> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>> se%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 17:26:32 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:26:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: <557831F5343C4A74A0AB3D6B4F8D3128@OwnerPC> References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com> <5084C6EAFAEF45AAA27016735DC03ED6@OwnerPC> <8747CBE63FE2452FA6131D4602CAA56D@Espy> <557831F5343C4A74A0AB3D6B4F8D3128@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hello everyone, OK, I shall try to combine my thoughts here: 1. Beth, bluetooth is still on the braillenote family of products. 2. IOS is awesome, and let us not forget iPod touch, :) There are a wealth of apps available that can assist people with completeing tasks, (e.g) pages for taking notes and writing documents, keynote for presentations, and the list goes on. 3. Ashley, I have seen and used, for a short time, a qwerty bluetooth keyboard. While it was aukward for me to use and the keys were not spaced apart, they were, in fact, still quite large, and you might have better luck than me, smiles. 4. Yes, notetakers and the like are quite expensive. My local lions club was not even sure they'd be able to procure the funds for me to get my apex, it was $6000. If they want to keep up, blindness companies and the like are seriously going to have to consider lowering there prices, or they will be headed for a potential disaster. Blind people will, as other people have rightly pointed out, start shifting towards IOS an separate braille displays, for their cheapness and reliability. Think that's everything for now. *smiles* Best, Josh On 11/26/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hope, > Oh, I wasn't aware you could substitute a bluetooth keyboard for the touch > screen; I thought you could type on the keyboard but still needed the > screen. > So you're saying you can use the keyboard with voice over, and operate it as > you would a computer then? > How many cells is your display? Wish I had one! they're so expensive! > Good to know and maybe I might get an ipad or Ipod touch then. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hope Paulos > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:52 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > I have a Seika braille display and a netbook and it works great. ALso have > an ipod touch and am thinking about getting an iphone. You don't have to use > the touch screen if you have a bluetooth keyboard. You just have to remember > the keystrokes as you would on a PC. I'd go with the IOS over blindness > products every time if I had the chance. > Hope Paulos > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:32 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > >> But I like the blindness notetaker because I can read and write braille on >> >> it. I think using a >> touch screen would require a lot of memory and spatial awareness. I >> already have to memorize where things like end, send and okay are on my >> basic cell phone! But if an IOS devices works for someone go ahead; it’s a >> >> lot more portable than a heavy braille notetaker. >> I wonder what braille displays you can use with those IPhones and IOS >> devices. >> Its cool that we have smaller, portable braille displays and keyboards >> now. >> How neat to have those options. The only braille displays I saw were the >> large 40 cell and 80 cell displays, although I am aware of smaller ones. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Humberto Avila >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:56 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> Yes, I think that is why some many blind people are using iPhones and >> iPads >> as their personal note taking and at school too. I think that these >> mainstream IOS devices with voiceover will be the nearby future of the >> accessibility for the blind. Since those assistive technology products >> made >> specifically for the blind are so expensive, blind people are going to >> shift >> to those devices, since they come with screen reading accessibility out of >> the box. Plus, they are not as expensive. Additionally, since Braille >> displays are not as expensive as note takers, some might chose the option >> to >> add a Braille display in combination to their IOS device instead of >> purchasing those major products such as Pacmate and Braille Note. If the >> trend continues like I mentioned, the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies >> better take notice of this and see fit. Besides, it would benefit their >> programs and services as well, and with this economy (if it continues to >> be >> bad), they will not have to suffer budget cuts by trying to help >> individuals >> with their note takers because they are so expensive. >> So, Humanware and freedom Scientific, I'm sorry if I offend you at all, I >> am >> not trying to be mean. Otherwise don't listen please!!!! (huge smile) >> >> P.S. wondering if this listserve is that much public? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Koby Cox >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:39 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> Yes. >> Koby. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> >>>> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard to >> repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT >> Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >>>> Beth >>>> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "RJ Sandefur" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>>> >>>> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was >> thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an >> iPad, >> or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. >>>> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >>>> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >>>> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>> se%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >>>> ur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.co >>> m >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Sent via gmail.com Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com Skype: joshgregory93 From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 18:07:46 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 13:07:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: <90FCF86FAF2E4766A6DB8ECFAFBFAE53@hometwxakonvzn> References: <90FCF86FAF2E4766A6DB8ECFAFBFAE53@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: <143E464E5D66468CB862638BF1D7F566@OwnerPC> Rj, If you really feel an Ipad fits your needs, its easy to justify. But most email attachments will be in Word or .rtf format. I do not know if apple products can read those. I open attachments from professors all the time. A Braille Note or PC can handle Word or .rtf attachments. Do you also have a windows pc or laptop? I do not think you should abandon your PC windows because the workplace uses them. Keep up those skills. Using the Microsoft office suite is critical in getting an office job if that is what you'll do. Are you in school? If so, justifying an Ipad is easy. Say its less expensive than a braille notetaker. Say you will use it for notetaking and whatever else you'll do. Say it will get you through school which in turn helps you in your VR goal. In my state, vr either purchases laptops, notetakers, or both; rarely have they purchased apple products. Let us know what you decide and if VR pays for it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 18:11:50 2011 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 13:11:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: <143E464E5D66468CB862638BF1D7F566@OwnerPC> References: <90FCF86FAF2E4766A6DB8ECFAFBFAE53@hometwxakonvzn> <143E464E5D66468CB862638BF1D7F566@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, iOS can in fact support word files, not sure about rtf but I imagine it can. On 11/26/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Rj, > If you really feel an Ipad fits your needs, its easy to justify. > But most email attachments will be in Word or .rtf format. I do not know if > apple products can read those. > I open attachments from professors all the time. A Braille Note or PC can > handle Word or .rtf attachments. > > Do you also have a windows pc or laptop? I do not think you should abandon > your PC windows because the workplace uses them. Keep up those skills. Using > the Microsoft office suite is critical in > getting an office job if that is what you'll do. > > Are you in school? If so, justifying an Ipad is easy. Say its less expensive > than a braille notetaker. Say you will use it for notetaking and whatever > else you'll do. Say it will get you through school which in turn helps you > in your VR goal. > > In my state, vr either purchases laptops, notetakers, or both; rarely have > they purchased apple products. > Let us know what you decide and if VR pays for it. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was > thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an iPad, > or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. > http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html > Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR > purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Sent via gmail.com Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com Skype: joshgregory93 From hope.paulos at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 18:35:31 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 13:35:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com><5084C6EAFAEF45AAA27016735DC03ED6@OwnerPC><8747CBE63FE2452FA6131D4602CAA56D@Espy> Message-ID: <333627E5C18A4D2594033CEEEFF0C6D8@Espy> Hi there RJ. Voiceover will tell me exactly where I am on the IPod touch. Hope and Beignet ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > Hope, how do you know where you are on the Ipod touch? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hope Paulos" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > >>I have a Seika braille display and a netbook and it works great. ALso have >>an ipod touch and am thinking about getting an iphone. You don't have to >>use the touch screen if you have a bluetooth keyboard. You just have to >>remember the keystrokes as you would on a PC. I'd go with the IOS over >>blindness products every time if I had the chance. >> Hope Paulos >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:32 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> >>> But I like the blindness notetaker because I can read and write braille >>> on it. I think using a >>> touch screen would require a lot of memory and spatial awareness. I >>> already have to memorize where things like end, send and okay are on my >>> basic cell phone! But if an IOS devices works for someone go ahead; it’s >>> a lot more portable than a heavy braille notetaker. >>> I wonder what braille displays you can use with those IPhones and IOS >>> devices. >>> Its cool that we have smaller, portable braille displays and keyboards >>> now. >>> How neat to have those options. The only braille displays I saw were the >>> large 40 cell and 80 cell displays, although I am aware of smaller ones. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Humberto Avila >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:56 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> Yes, I think that is why some many blind people are using iPhones and >>> iPads >>> as their personal note taking and at school too. I think that these >>> mainstream IOS devices with voiceover will be the nearby future of the >>> accessibility for the blind. Since those assistive technology products >>> made >>> specifically for the blind are so expensive, blind people are going to >>> shift >>> to those devices, since they come with screen reading accessibility out >>> of >>> the box. Plus, they are not as expensive. Additionally, since Braille >>> displays are not as expensive as note takers, some might chose the >>> option to >>> add a Braille display in combination to their IOS device instead of >>> purchasing those major products such as Pacmate and Braille Note. If the >>> trend continues like I mentioned, the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies >>> better take notice of this and see fit. Besides, it would benefit their >>> programs and services as well, and with this economy (if it continues to >>> be >>> bad), they will not have to suffer budget cuts by trying to help >>> individuals >>> with their note takers because they are so expensive. >>> So, Humanware and freedom Scientific, I'm sorry if I offend you at all, >>> I am >>> not trying to be mean. Otherwise don't listen please!!!! (huge smile) >>> >>> P.S. wondering if this listserve is that much public? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Koby Cox >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:39 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> Yes. >>> Koby. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard >>>>> to >>> repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT >>> Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >>>>> Beth >>>>> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "RJ Sandefur" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>>>> >>>>> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I >>>>> was >>> thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an >>> iPad, >>> or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've >>> found. >>>>> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >>>>> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >>>>> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>>> se%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >>>>> ur%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.co >>>> m >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 21:58:28 2011 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 13:58:28 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: <333627E5C18A4D2594033CEEEFF0C6D8@Espy> References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com><5084C6EAFAEF45AAA27016735DC03ED6@OwnerPC><8747CBE63FE2452FA6131D4602CAA56D@Espy> <333627E5C18A4D2594033CEEEFF0C6D8@Espy> Message-ID: <84FBFF77179D499397CE7FD40EF33055@userPC> Is the Ipod tuch hard to use? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 10:36 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Hi there RJ. Voiceover will tell me exactly where I am on the IPod touch. Hope and Beignet ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > Hope, how do you know where you are on the Ipod touch? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hope Paulos" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > >>I have a Seika braille display and a netbook and it works great. ALso have >>an ipod touch and am thinking about getting an iphone. You don't have to >>use the touch screen if you have a bluetooth keyboard. You just have to >>remember the keystrokes as you would on a PC. I'd go with the IOS over >>blindness products every time if I had the chance. >> Hope Paulos >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:32 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> >>> But I like the blindness notetaker because I can read and write braille >>> on it. I think using a >>> touch screen would require a lot of memory and spatial awareness. I >>> already have to memorize where things like end, send and okay are on my >>> basic cell phone! But if an IOS devices works for someone go ahead; it's >>> a lot more portable than a heavy braille notetaker. >>> I wonder what braille displays you can use with those IPhones and IOS >>> devices. >>> Its cool that we have smaller, portable braille displays and keyboards >>> now. >>> How neat to have those options. The only braille displays I saw were the >>> large 40 cell and 80 cell displays, although I am aware of smaller ones. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Humberto Avila >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:56 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> Yes, I think that is why some many blind people are using iPhones and >>> iPads >>> as their personal note taking and at school too. I think that these >>> mainstream IOS devices with voiceover will be the nearby future of the >>> accessibility for the blind. Since those assistive technology products >>> made >>> specifically for the blind are so expensive, blind people are going to >>> shift >>> to those devices, since they come with screen reading accessibility out >>> of >>> the box. Plus, they are not as expensive. Additionally, since Braille >>> displays are not as expensive as note takers, some might chose the >>> option to >>> add a Braille display in combination to their IOS device instead of >>> purchasing those major products such as Pacmate and Braille Note. If the >>> trend continues like I mentioned, the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies >>> better take notice of this and see fit. Besides, it would benefit their >>> programs and services as well, and with this economy (if it continues to >>> be >>> bad), they will not have to suffer budget cuts by trying to help >>> individuals >>> with their note takers because they are so expensive. >>> So, Humanware and freedom Scientific, I'm sorry if I offend you at all, >>> I am >>> not trying to be mean. Otherwise don't listen please!!!! (huge smile) >>> >>> P.S. wondering if this listserve is that much public? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Koby Cox >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:39 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> Yes. >>> Koby. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard >>>>> to >>> repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT >>> Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >>>>> Beth >>>>> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "RJ Sandefur" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>>>> >>>>> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I >>>>> was >>> thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an >>> iPad, >>> or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've >>> found. >>>>> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >>>>> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >>>>> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>>> se%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >>>>> ur%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.co >>>> m >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 19:42:28 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 14:42:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: <84FBFF77179D499397CE7FD40EF33055@userPC> References: <4ed0672e.57c3e70a.293c.20d7@mx.google.com><5084C6EAFAEF45AAA27016735DC03ED6@OwnerPC><8747CBE63FE2452FA6131D4602CAA56D@Espy><333627E5C18A4D2594033CEEEFF0C6D8@Espy> <84FBFF77179D499397CE7FD40EF33055@userPC> Message-ID: Rania, That is subjective; what is hard for one is easy for another. If you can get used to a touch screen and finger gestures, its probably not hard. -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:58 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Is the Ipod tuch hard to use? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 10:36 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products Hi there RJ. Voiceover will tell me exactly where I am on the IPod touch. Hope and Beignet ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > Hope, how do you know where you are on the Ipod touch? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hope Paulos" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > > >>I have a Seika braille display and a netbook and it works great. ALso have >>an ipod touch and am thinking about getting an iphone. You don't have to >>use the touch screen if you have a bluetooth keyboard. You just have to >>remember the keystrokes as you would on a PC. I'd go with the IOS over >>blindness products every time if I had the chance. >> Hope Paulos >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 11:32 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> >>> But I like the blindness notetaker because I can read and write braille >>> on it. I think using a >>> touch screen would require a lot of memory and spatial awareness. I >>> already have to memorize where things like end, send and okay are on my >>> basic cell phone! But if an IOS devices works for someone go ahead; it's >>> a lot more portable than a heavy braille notetaker. >>> I wonder what braille displays you can use with those IPhones and IOS >>> devices. >>> Its cool that we have smaller, portable braille displays and keyboards >>> now. >>> How neat to have those options. The only braille displays I saw were the >>> large 40 cell and 80 cell displays, although I am aware of smaller ones. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Humberto Avila >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:56 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> Yes, I think that is why some many blind people are using iPhones and >>> iPads >>> as their personal note taking and at school too. I think that these >>> mainstream IOS devices with voiceover will be the nearby future of the >>> accessibility for the blind. Since those assistive technology products >>> made >>> specifically for the blind are so expensive, blind people are going to >>> shift >>> to those devices, since they come with screen reading accessibility out >>> of >>> the box. Plus, they are not as expensive. Additionally, since Braille >>> displays are not as expensive as note takers, some might chose the >>> option to >>> add a Braille display in combination to their IOS device instead of >>> purchasing those major products such as Pacmate and Braille Note. If the >>> trend continues like I mentioned, the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies >>> better take notice of this and see fit. Besides, it would benefit their >>> programs and services as well, and with this economy (if it continues to >>> be >>> bad), they will not have to suffer budget cuts by trying to help >>> individuals >>> with their note takers because they are so expensive. >>> So, Humanware and freedom Scientific, I'm sorry if I offend you at all, >>> I am >>> not trying to be mean. Otherwise don't listen please!!!! (huge smile) >>> >>> P.S. wondering if this listserve is that much public? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Koby Cox >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:39 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>> >>> Yes. >>> Koby. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks. Is voice over easy to learn? RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:11 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'd justify that the iPad is a cheap option. The BrailleNote is hard >>>>> to >>> repair and neeeds thousands of dollars just to maintain. I love my BNQT >>> Apex, but let' face it. It's really expensive. >>>>> Beth >>>>> P.S. does anyone know what happened to Bluetooth on the BrailleNote? >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "RJ Sandefur" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >>>>> >>>>> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I >>>>> was >>> thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an >>> iPad, >>> or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've >>> found. >>>>> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >>>>> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >>>>> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>>> se%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >>>>> ur%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.co >>>> m >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From robinmel71 at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 20:08:33 2011 From: robinmel71 at earthlink.net (Robin) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:08:33 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior In-Reply-To: References: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111126115630.049b4a80@earthlink.net> Good Day, Miss Ashley, I'm SORRY that you FEEL that way and I'm pretty much sure there are a number of others who feel the same way, but that doesn't make it RIGHT. I don't EXHIBIT the type of behavior of Rockin', but I'm sure I EXHIBIT some type of behavior that isn't SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE. Everyone EXHIBITS some type of odd behavior some are MORE PRONOUNCED than others. Why should some be looked down upon while others are not? What we NEED is MORE UNDERSTANDINGand ACCEPTANCE!!! And this IS 4 you. Rockin' Robin He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Every little swallow, every chick-a-dee Every little bird in the tall oak tree The wise old owl, the big black crow Flappin' their wings singing go bird go Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Yeah yeah Pretty little raven at the bird-band stand Told them how to do the bob and it was grand They started going steady and bless my soul He out-bopped the buzzard and the oriol He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Pretty little raven at the bird-band stand Told them how to do the bop and it was grand They started going steady and bless my soul He out-bopped the buzzard and the oriol He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight At 08:36 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: >If you want to exhibit odd behavior, you might >change your mind when you try and get a job. >I hope they discourage this behavior at NFB >centers. When I read Jim Omvig's book partially, >one ingredient of training was to blend in and appear >acceptable. And BTW, its not just about >appearance. If you rock, I find it harder to >hear people as their voice keeps moving. >Also, if they fail to look at me, their voice >sounds muffled as they look down. Sorry to be >blunt and sound imposing, but its reality. >If you don't agree, fine, but I suspect no one >will want to hire someone who does not act socially appropriate. > > >-----Original Message----- From: Robin >Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:04 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > >Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, > >STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon >those, who EXHIBIT mannerisms of the Blind >variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, >you like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP >with Ol"Sighty and do NOT expect others in "The >Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. >ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a >Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. > >At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >>Bridgit, >>Nicely said, and some of these examples point >>out apples and oranges. Like you, I do not want >>to give people a reason to think Im >>cognitively or developmentally delayed when I'm >>not. The disabilities are very different. Those >>with those disabilities function at a teen or >>child level; their body is grown, their mind is >>not. It is not their fault, it is the way they >>are built. And I just loved your anecdotes to back up your point. >> >>I find it degrading when people talk over me to >>a sighted companion or assume I need extra help >>or something just because I'm blind. I have >>been treated like I'm not the college educated >>adult I am. Its definitely degrading and >>frustrating. I think we should change >>behaviors that we can; after all a sighted >>person growing up would be expected to >>extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to >>fit in and be treated like everyone else, then >>we should follow those same rules. >> >>Ashley >> >>-----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> >>Marc, >> >>First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >> >>However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >>negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >>is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >>disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >>life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >>members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >>little about it. >> >>Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >>physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >>disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >>more difficult to navigate through situations. >> >>I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >>information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >>with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >>don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >>simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >>intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. >> >>While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >>test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >>understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >>my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >>was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >>few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >>understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >>doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >>assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >>information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >>of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >>not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >>30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >>ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >>misinformed notions? >> >>Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >>intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >>either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >>something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >>blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >>don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >>"worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >>barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >> >>Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >>parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >>general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >>with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >>and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >>does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >>functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >>capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >>isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >>people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >>prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >>of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >>with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >>you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >>even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >>yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >>your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >>people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >>reality, dude. >> >>A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >>early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >>since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >>aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >>award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >>thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >>care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >>sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >>to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. >> >>And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >>behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >>now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >>unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >>attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >>Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >>this issue. >> >>If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >>makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >>not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >>we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >>only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >>disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >>can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >> >>You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >>with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >>but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >> >>And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >>even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >>my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >>demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >>making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >>former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >>with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >>had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >>I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >>something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >>disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >>some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >> >>And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >>engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >>correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >>changing minds about our actual abilities. >> >>Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >>but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >>are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >>of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >>included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >>instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >>socially acceptable. >> >>You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >>sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >>and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >>prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >>once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >>consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >>my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >>negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >>perpetuate the idea that we're different. >> >>The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >>established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >>or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >>people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >>you how complex this is. >> >>On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >>always right, giggle! >> >>Sincerely, >>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>Read my blog at: >>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >>, Message: 6 >>Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >>From: Marc Workman >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>Message-ID: >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >>Bridgit wrote, >>why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >>Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >>give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >>people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >>society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >>disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >> >>Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >>disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >>people not to look blind. >> >>why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >>people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >>people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >>intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >>have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >>path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >> >>Ashley wrote, >>I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >>it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >>Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >>makes us look worse. >> >>It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >>delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >>rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >>disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >>person. >> >>I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >>"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >>is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >>attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >>fighting against with respect to blindness. >> >>Bridgit wrote, >>Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >>appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >> >>What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >>decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >>this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >>appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >>when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >>talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >>to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >>people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >>the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >>about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? >> >>Ashley wrote, >>Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >>your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >> >>I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >>mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >>me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >>that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >>as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >>these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >>people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >>that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >>is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >>course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >>majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >>that is better for everyone. >> >>I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >>celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >>Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Marc >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 20:14:09 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 15:14:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones Message-ID: <4ed148c3.8ab7340a.11cb.fffff32f@mx.google.com> Hi=20Ashley, The=20Haven=20reads=20all=20the=20things=20you=20mentioned=20in=20your=20em= ail.=20=20The=20 Haven=20isn't=20available=20at=20all=20stores,=20as=20it's=20not=20a=20smar= tphone=20and=20 it's=20an=20older=20phone.=20=20One=20thing=20about=20Verizon:=20when=20you= =20go=20to=20a=20 store,=20ask=20the=20person=20you're=20talking=20to=20if=20the=20store=20is= =20a=20 corporate=20or=20satellite=20store.=20=20I=20say=20this=20because=20satelli= te=20 stores=20can=20sell=20you=20refurbished=20phones=20without=20telling=20you,= =20which=20 means=20if=20something=20goes=20wrong,=20you=20can't=20fix=20it=20or=20get= =20a=20 replacement=20phone=20without=20paying=20for=20it,=20as=20the=20warranty=20= on=20that=20 phone=20has=20already=20expired=20before=20you=20got=20it.=20=20So=20make=20= sure=20you're=20 going=20to=20a=20corporate=20store=20before=20you=20buy=20your=20phone.=20= =20Usually=20 the=20larger=20stores=20and=20the=20ones=20at=20malls=20are=20corporates,=20= so=20that=20 larger=20store=20you're=20planning=20to=20go=20to=20is=20a=20good=20idea=20= to=20go=20to.=20=20 And=20once=20you=20get=20your=20hands=20on=20a=20Haven,=20if=20your=20sales= person=20 doesn't=20know=20how=20to=20turn=20the=20speech=20on=20(as=20most=20of=20th= em=20don't,)=20 tell=20the=20person=20to=20do=20the=20following: From=20the=20home=20screen,=20hit=20the=20left=20soft=20key=20to=20go=20to= =20the=20menu.=20=20 Then=20scrool=20down=20with=20the=20arrow=20keys=20to=20settings=20(it's=20= the=20sixth=20 item=20in=20the=20menu)=20and=20hit=20the=20OK=20button=20(also=20known=20a= s=20the=20center=20 button.)=20On=20the=20screen=20it=20takes=20you=20to,=20hit=20OK=20on=20the= =20first=20 option=20that=20you=20come=20to,=20which=20is=20Sound=20Settings.=20=20From= =20there,=20 scroll=20down=20to=20Voice=20Commands=20and=20hit=20OK.=20=20Once=20on=20th= at=20screen,=20 you=20are=20presented=20with=20a=20bunch=20of=20readout=20options;=20menu=20= readout,=20 digit=20readout,=20alert=20readout,=20etc.=20=20Scroll=20down=20to=20the=20= last=20 option,=20which=20is=20full=20readout.=20=20Hit=20the=20OK=20button=20on=20= that.=20=20A=20 pop-up=20screen=20will=20then=20come=20up=20that=20says=20"Full=20readout=20= will=20 enable=20all=20other=20readouts."=20You=20want=20to=20enable=20all=20readou= ts,=20so=20 hit=20OK=20and=20the=20speech=20will=20be=20set. Hope=20this=20helps!=20If=20you=20have=20any=20questions=20on=20the=20Haven= ,=20email=20me=20 offlist=20at=20dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com! Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 =20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually=20impa= ired=20youth=20 in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through=20provi= ding=20 assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and=20convention= s=20 which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20peers.=20=20For= =20more=20 information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20our=20work,=20= visit=20 us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! -----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20 Hi Vejas, Wow, this is a very interesting question! I don't have a lot of perspective on this, as I don't have such a fear, but here's one thought. I don't think the fear of dogs isn't a blindness issue, because all blind people don't have this fear. However, I understand what you're saying. I've been outside plenty of times and have heard a pretty ferocious-sounding dog barking near me. But as long as I hear the dog running around in a certain little area and isn't running toward me and growling and barking at me, I know he's probably in a fence and can't jump it. I'll tell you this: my family and I had a Rotweiller for a long time. She was a big dog, and a lot of our friends and neighbors were afriad of her. But she had a very sweet disposition, and was very nice to everyone. But at the same time, we liked having her around because we knew that if anyone tried to break into our house or something, she would protect us. But she had a very sweet temper, and so have all other Rotties I've met. All that makes a lot of people afraid of rotties is their size and their bark, but once you get to know them, they're great! Just throwing out some thoughts. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: vejas Hi=20Ashley, I=20have=20passed=20this=20along=20to=20the=20Federation's=20Governmental=20= Affairs=20 Team=20at=20the=20national=20office=20(John=20Par=E9,=20Jesse=20Hartle,=20L= auren=20 McLarney,=20and=20Anil=20Lewis)=20and=20will=20let=20you=20and=20the=20list= =20know=20if=20I=20 hear=20back=20from=20them.=20=20Just=20so=20you=20know,=20if=20you=20have=20= any=20questions=20 about=20the=20Federation=20and=20legislative=20work=20and/or=20 blindness-related=20legislation,=20they're=20great=20resources=20and=20are= =20 open=20to=20questions.=20=20Here=20are=20their=20emails: John=20Par=E9,=20Director=20of=20Strategic=20Initiatives:=20jpare at nfb.org. Jesse=20Hartle,=20Governmental=20Affairs=20Specialist:=20jhartle at nfb.org. Lauren=20McLarney,=20Governmental=20Affairs=20Specialist:=20 lmclarney at nfb.org. Anil=20Lewis,=20Director=20of=20Strategic=20Communications:=20alewis at nfb.or= g. You=20can=20also=20call=20the=20national=20center=20at=20410-659-9314=20and= =20ask=20for=20 any=20of=20them. Chris "The=20real=20problem=20of=20blindness=20is=20not=20the=20loss=20of=20eyesi= ght.=20=20The=20 real=20problem=20is=20the=20misunderstanding=20and=20lack=20of=20education= =20that=20 exists.=20=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20has=20the=20proper=20training=20and= =20 opportunity,=20blindness=20can=20be=20reduced=20to=20a=20mere=20physical=20= nuisance." --=20Kenneth=20Jernigan=20(President,=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20= Blind,=20 1968-1986 =20The=20I=20C.A.N.=20=20Foundation=20helps=20blind=20and=20visually=20impa= ired=20youth=20 in=20Maryland=20say=20"I=20can,"=20by=20empowering=20them=20through=20provi= ding=20 assistive=20technology=20and=20scholarships=20to=20camps=20and=20convention= s=20 which=20help=20them=20be=20equal=20with=20their=20sighted=20peers.=20=20For= =20more=20 information=20about=20the=20Foundation=20and=20to=20support=20our=20work,=20= visit=20 us=20online=20at=20www.icanfoundation.info! =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20 Ditto, Humberto! We have become a much more independent and accepted group of people because of the work of the Federation! I should also say that I'm thankful for the National Association of Blind Students! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Humberto Avila" Great! Thanks, Amy! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" Well, just fill out a staff application on audioaccessfm.com! Hey, maybe we listeners will see you on there some day! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" References: <4ed148cd.8ab7340a.11cb.fffff33b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7AC2A4A8C9684DE4AB495484DDFDC704@OwnerPC> Hi Chris, Thanks. As I said, before when the access board came out with regulations, the NFB was on them; yet I heard nothing and wondered if NFB had a position and/or was submitting comments. I might ask one of them. I don't understand why NFB would protest APS aggressively one year and say nothing the next. Audible pedestrian signals, as I understand it, would be installed anywhere a new pedestrian signal is installed, which means any intersection you have to press a button to alert the light system you are a pedestrian and need to cross the street. Well we'll see what happens. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 3:14 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] access board guidelines Hi Ashley, I have passed this along to the Federation's Governmental Affairs Team at the national office (John Par? Jesse Hartle, Lauren McLarney, and Anil Lewis) and will let you and the list know if I hear back from them. Just so you know, if you have any questions about the Federation and legislative work and/or blindness-related legislation, they're great resources and are open to questions. Here are their emails: John Par? Director of Strategic Initiatives: jpare at nfb.org. Jesse Hartle, Governmental Affairs Specialist: jhartle at nfb.org. Lauren McLarney, Governmental Affairs Specialist: lmclarney at nfb.org. Anil Lewis, Director of Strategic Communications: alewis at nfb.org. You can also call the national center at 410-659-9314 and ask for any of them. Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" how many cells is your briallant display? Is it portable? How large are > those keyboards? I saw a small one built into my father's blackberry and I > could never press keys that small effectively; I got small fingers but when > I feel a key, the edge of my finger is on another key. I just think it would > be too hard to type on. But if you can use a portable keyboard, that is > nice. Maybe the keys are spaced apart like a traditional pc keyboard. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Jedi > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:54 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products > Hey there. > I don't use an iPad, but I use an iPhone for my note taking and the > like. I pair it with a folding Nokia SU-8W keyboard and a Brailliant > display. Now, VR did pay for the display and the keyboard, but i paid > for the iPhone. I could have paid for the keyboard, but at the time, I > didn't have the money. I opted for this setup because, if the display > needs repair, I can still use the iPhone with the keyboard. If the > keyboard needs repair, I can still use the phone and the display; it > might be slow going with inputing text, but it can be done (I can > always record if I really get stuck). If the iPhone goes dead, I can > always replace it and my stuff will be in the cloud. Sure, the iPhone > is still quite expensive, but it is less expensive than the blindness > products are. I also choose this setup because I can decide when I'll > use the keyboard and display, but i'll always have my info on the go. > Finally, it's easier to share information across platforms and iOS > devices tend to stay with current trends in technology much more than > blindness products tend to. > But it's also the principle of the thing: I want to support > technologies that use universal design rather than supporting a system > that keeps blind people having to rely on rehab for their most basic needs. > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: >> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was >> thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an >> iPad, or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've >> found. >> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 21:02:17 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:02:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bridgit, I like your idea of becoming familiar with the set. Yeah you're right that stage sets are supposed to be set up the same way each time. So it’s a matter of memory then and familiarity. Now that I think of it, I did use my cane on stage a little in high school drama class while rehearsing. What do you mean by performance-based classes? How is that different than theatre class? Facial expressions are vital to acting; but this wasn't an issue for me. I think, and hope, I looked expressive as my voice was. We did body exercises to warm up, but I don't remember doing face exercises. Of course, I only took acting 1 though. You said "When running lines, you may say the same word, or phrase, over and over in order to capture the proper tone and inflection." I assume you did this in practice/rehearsals. This makes me interested in trying it. Maybe I should audition for a community play or my community college play. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 4:21 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes Ashley, I was sighted when I minored in theatre, but I took a couple of performance-based classes while in my second go-around with university. I know we have several blind theatre majors here though. I memorized my lines with JAWS- I have a good retention with my short-term memory. If you do an entire play, though, I think it would be best to have a Braille copy of the script. I did some directing, which I love. I helped direct a few scenes for a class even though I wasn't registered for it. The instructor also taught another class that I was enrolled in, and she asked if I would be willing to help direct in her other class. I mostly referred to my computer for the script and my notes. I had specific ideas for the set, costuming and actors. It helped to go in already prepared, not trying to figure things out as we went along. You could use your cane on stage, but if you're not suppose to be blind, it may look a little odd to the audience. Perhaps you could grow very familiar with the set so you could walk around safely. Stage sets are suppose to be set up the exact way each time, so if you were accustomed to it, it would make maneuvering around it a bit more easy, and you could leave your cane off stage so when done, you had your cane to get around with. Facial expression is a vital part of the acting process. You want to convey the right emotions and characteristics connected with a character. We would do face exercises along with body exercises to warm up, and loosen things up. Whether stage acting or acting for film and television, using appropriate facial expressions, and being expressive in general, is very important. When acting, you create specific expressions, movements, inflections, tones, etc. Every little detail is disected and explored, then the actor constructs the character, cognitive of each movement, each expression and how each word is said. When running lines, you may say the same word, or phrase, over and over in order to capture the proper tone and inflection. The voice is probably the most important aspect of theatre because tone can convey and imply a lot. I was in a local theatre's play, The Outsiders, and we wore face masks so our performance was dependent on the voice and body movement. We had to convey so much with voice and body. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:43:22 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: [nabs-l] taking acting classes Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi all, What Bridgit said about acting class brought back memories. She said ?Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely important. Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body movements, but be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform in front of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive criticism, or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to perform monologues and duets and group scenes.? Bridgit, you have a minor in theatre; I haven?t met a blind person who did that before. Of course you were sighted, so can draw upon your experience learning facial expressions and visual expressions. Did you braille the script for memorizing it? I cannot memorize by listening except for song lyrics! I?m wondering how a blind actor would move around the stage safely. I mean you have obstacles up there and won?t have your cane since you?re another character. I just depended on my vision. Interesting that Bridgit says acting class pays a lot of attention to body movement and facial expressions. I don?t recall that happening. We did focus on voice though; like volume, tone and expression. I took acting in high school and the teacher was very easy. I did not learn much from it. We spent too much time watching movies rather than acting. But I won?t forget our final where we had to do a monologue. That was hard! I prefered working with a partner because their words clued me into what I had to say. In college, I also took acting. We did a number of things. They ranged from partner work acting scenes, improvization, something like sherades where you stand in front of everyone and pretend to do a day activity, and of course actual acting with small groups or a partner. We did warmups to loosen up; the instructor was very accomodating and showed me these stretches and exercises. I enjoyed it. Our acting exercises revolved around sensory awareness, and a lot of this was not visual. A few were visual exercises which we adapted; like mimicking what someone did with their hands. She stressed to be aware of all your senses and surroundings. For instance, we did an exercise that you responded to someone?s tone. Another was where you simply went and touched a classmate?s hand. She guided us in what to observe. Was it rough or soft? Rinkled or smooth? Boney? I guessed the guy I touched was athletic due to his large muscular hands, and If I remember correctly, I was right. She did say you had to show expression, but not just facial expressions, but expressions and movement with your whole body. We were definitely judged on our performance by peers and the instructor who herself was an actress. Still, it was fun. She never said anything about me needing to be visually expressive, so maybe I was expressive enough as my girl characters, or maybe it didn?t occur to her to say anything. Oh, we did not watch movies either. So, I got a lot out of the class. For the acting scenes, I asked the school to braille them. I got an A in the class. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From brlsurfer at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 21:09:11 2011 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 13:09:11 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes Message-ID: <4ed155a3.83b7340a.5f09.0529@mx.google.com> I'm=20pretty=20good=20at=20acting-only=20problem=20is=20moving=20around=20a= nd=20 finding=20which=20exact=20spot=20to=20go=20to=20in=20a=20play-was=20interes= ted=20in=20 drama=20but=20my=20aide=20thought=20it=20might=20be=20too=20visual=20and=20= choq=20was=20the=20 better=20place=20to=20go Vejas =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20 Jedi, > Since you plan to be a cane travel instructor, > I would think that such odd behavior as rocking would be discouraged. I know > my O&M teacher discouraged it growing up. She also encouraged me to face the > person I spoke to. > Yes we are blind and shouldn't hide that fact. But should we look different > just because we didn't learn body language? I think not. Kids usually learn > body language by observation, and for us we need to be told it since we > cannot learn visually. You as a teacher can help that process. > You will be a role model. > Now if an adult is reminded not to do that behavior and still does, there is > not much you can do about it. But I believe blind adults should be aware of > inappropriate behavior, so they can make a decision what to do. > I engage in some unacceptable behaviors at home like talking to myself, > like thinking out loud, rocking, and popping huge bubbles with gum. But I > know what was appropriate and chose to do them where no one would see me > doing it > in private. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Jedi > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 1:10 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > I hear you Humberto. What you're saying is that, while we may be able > to look and act like sighted people, the fundamental truth is that > we're not sighted; there is some information that we don't get because > it's not non-visual. So no matter what, we're kinda out anyway; we > might be able to look like the sighted, but we may not know exactly > when to turn on that program that says "look this way or that way" > because we don't always get the cues necessary to activate that > programming. Makes sense to me. But I would submit that we have more > access to those cues than most people think. But you're still right > nonetheless. The fact is that we're blind and that we may be a little > different. But that doesn't make us inferior, so why stress about it? > And yes, you're quite right that context is important: we should be > able to match our context for presentation purposes. But that still > doesn't mean we ought to stress about it. > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: >> Hello there: >> Ain't no difference if you're black or white, ain't no difference if >> you're >> sighted or blind! I think that blind people should not be stressed out >> about trying to look 100% like a sighted person, and try to display the >> same >> face looks and body looks or expressions that the sighted people do. I say >> this because, A, if I am blind, and I imitate a sighted person's exact >> looks >> and body and face expressions, I'm not sure if I look, for example, >> crooked, >> or my face is poiting to a different direction, or reacting in a way that >> might look a little odd to a sighted person. And, B, if we ever do imitate >> the sighted in their exact moves and imitate their facial expressions 100% >> right like if we are sighted so as to look like society looks, we would >> only >> be doing one half of the work. Think of our brains and ourselves as >> computer >> programming. We can have every single sighted algorithm installed on our >> brains so that the specific "software" (being our minds and thoughts) is >> capable of triggering all exact facial motions and expressions with our >> bodies and faces, as in input. We would be capable of doing input, but we >> are not capable of the output process. Because our eyes can not see, or >> residually, our "software" (again, as our minds and thoughts) will not be >> able to interact with what is displayed in others, meaning that, we can >> not >> see what others do or what faces or expressions they make. Am I making >> sense? Or am I being too technical here? I'm pretty sure we are all >> familiar >> with these aspects as we all are emailing to this list and we all use >> computers and have knowledge of hardware and software. Back to being >> virtually sighted without eyesight. In conclusion, we have all the >> hardware >> (our eyes, our body and face) and software (our brains and all the habits >> that we setup in our mind sets and our thoughts). Yes, a blind person can >> imitate all the looks 100% of the way, as if he or she is looking like the >> sighted society. But how is that blind person expected to react, or >> interact >> with another sighted person when that sighted person is doing a face, or >> expression. One example of this: >> One day one of my cousins who is little said my name. I addressed her as >> if >> we were to have a normal conversation. But instead she went, "look look." >> then there was a very small but sudden pause and then I heard her laughing >> as if she had done something that appeared to me funny according to my >> assumption. I again said "what? What is that?" then she laughed again just >> like the other time. Now, did she do a facial expression or did she try to >> show me something that was funny through the use of a funny body or facial >> expression? Yes! But do I know which expression or weird look that was >> funny? Heck no! why? Because my brain does not support the "output" of >> seeing and reacting to that funny expression. If my brain was able to >> support that, I would have laughed along with my cousin. But because I am >> blind, I do not. Do you know what I'm getting to? >> My bottom line is: my fellow students, unless there was a revolutionary >> and >> technological little device that did the most accurate automated audio >> description like in the movies, please do not stress out about trying to >> imitate the sighted population and trying to look like the majority in >> terms >> of doing exact body and facial expressions. Relax! Yes, there is the thing >> with job interviews and formal settings and school settings or >> professional >> settings where one has to look great and presentable and look like others >> by >> looking in the face when somebody speaks to one, and the like, but no >> absolute need to try to do the same nonverbal visual face and body >> expressions and worry about how you look in terms of total expressions and >> movements like the sighted. Do I make sense? I myself don't want to suffer >> by worrying about my looks and movements so much, otherwise it pays just >> 50% >> of the hard work that will pay off. And where will that other 50% be? >> Nowhere? >> Just my 15 cents for what it's worth. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Robin >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:05 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, >> STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon those, who EXHIBIT >> mannerisms of the Blind variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, you >> like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP with Ol"Sighty and do NOT >> expect others in "The Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. >> ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a >> Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. >> At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >>> Bridgit, >>> Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. >>> Like you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im >>> cognitively or developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities >>> are very different. Those with those disabilities function at a teen or >>> child level; their body is grown, their mind is not. >>> It is not their fault, it is the way they are built. And I just loved >>> your anecdotes to back up your point. >>> I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >>> assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have >>> been treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its >>> definitely degrading and frustrating. I think we should change >>> behaviors that we can; after all a sighted person growing up would be >>> expected to extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be >>> treated like everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>> Marc, >>> First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >>> However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >>> negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >>> is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >>> disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver >>> through life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few >>> family members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I >>> know a little about it. >>> Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >>> physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >>> disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >>> more difficult to navigate through situations. >>> I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand >>> basic information that the average person with no cognitive problem >>> understand with no effort. When we have physical and sensory >>> disabilities only, we don't require most information, basic >>> information, to be broken down and simplified. We're not talking about >>> Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings intellect here, but the average >>> intellectual >> capacity most of us have. >>> While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >>> test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >>> understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >>> my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >>> was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >>> few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >>> understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked >>> the doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This >>> woman assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't >>> comprehend information stated to all patients just because I was blind. >>> Regardless of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, >>> disabled or not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned >>> being a 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some >>> people all ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their >>> grossly misinformed notions? >>> Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >>> intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >>> either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >>> something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >>> blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if >>> you don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is >>> necessarily "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can >>> present unique barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >>> Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >>> parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >>> general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, >>> even with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or >>> lawyer, and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be >>> done. It does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even >>> higher functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the >>> intellectual capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. >>> Blindness, however, isn't necessarily holding us back in an >>> intellectual way. Individual people may question our ability, but we >>> have the capacity in which to prove how capable we are. Many blind >>> people face discrimination because of their blindness. In my experience >>> though, if you present yourself with confidence, look and act polished, >>> people are more likely to give you an opportunity. If you don't appear >>> put-together, exhibit mannerisms even considered inappropriate for >>> sighted people and don't carry yourself with confidence and/or >>> intelligence, it doesn't matter what your resume says, what >>> recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, people will be more >>> wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's reality, dude. >>> A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >>> early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >>> since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >>> aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >>> award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >>> thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able >>> to care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a >>> mere sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at >>> least to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. >>> And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >>> behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >>> now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >>> unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >>> attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >>> Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >>> this issue. >>> If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >>> makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >>> not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >>> we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >>> only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >>> disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. >>> You can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >>> You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >>> with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >>> but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >>> And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >>> even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response >>> to my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >>> demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? >>> Stop making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >>> former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >>> with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >>> had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >>> I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >>> something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of >>> their disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, >>> I know some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >>> And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >>> engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >>> correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >>> changing minds about our actual abilities. >>> Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >>> but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme >>> behaviors are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they >>> are capable of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, >>> ourselves included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real >>> problem, instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements >>> not socially acceptable. >>> You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >>> sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us >>> quirks and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of >>> reverse prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't >>> see, why, once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight >>> card? I don't consider myself different from anyone else I know other >>> than I can't use my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end >>> stereotypes and change negative attitudes, but I don't place >>> distinctions that, though reverse, perpetuate the idea that we're >> different. >>> The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >>> established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >>> or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people >>> assume, people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world >>> will show you how complex this is. >>> On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >>> always right, giggle! >>> Sincerely, >>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>> Read my blog at: >>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>> , Message: 6 >>> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >>> From: Marc Workman >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> Bridgit wrote, >>> why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >>> Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >>> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >>> people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >>> society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >>> disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >>> Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >>> disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >>> people not to look blind. >>> why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >>> people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually >>> disabled people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? >>> The fact is intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually >>> disabled, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, >>> put in our path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >>> Ashley wrote, >>> I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >>> it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >>> Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >>> makes us look worse. >>> It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >>> delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >>> rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >>> disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a >>> blind person. >>> I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >>> "retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading >>> word, is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same >>> negative attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all >>> supposed to be fighting against with respect to blindness. >>> Bridgit wrote, >>> Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >>> appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >>> What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >>> decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >>> this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >>> appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >>> when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >>> talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >>> to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >>> people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >>> the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the >>> attitudes about women and minorities that have been challenged and >>> changed? >>> Ashley wrote, >>> Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >>> your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >>> I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are >>> not mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that >>> bothers me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about >>> blindness that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, >>> as ugly, as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to >>> deal with these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like >>> most people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach >>> them that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but >>> that this is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path >>> is of course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority >>> than the majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to >>> the world that is better for everyone. >>> I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >>> celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >>> Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >>> Cheers, >>> Marc >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earth >>> link.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthl >>> ink.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >> mail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 21:11:35 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:11:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridgit, So you took ballet, tap and jazz. Anything else? Were you the one that said your mom owned a dance studio? Did you find taking dance different after becoming blind? IF dance instructors were hands-on, that is good. I think many people learn well by touch-- the haptic/kinesthetic sense. But its not used enough in this visual culture. The dance instructor I encountered, when I comtemplated signing up for ballroom dance, said he explained the moves and demonstrated them. But he did not reference using hands-on learning by correcting participants by positioning them in the proper stances. But maybe I just didn't encounter the right instructor; who knows? Maybe I'll take some private lessons someday. That way I'd go at my own pace and it could be as hands on as I needed. Dance is so beautiful, particularly ballroom. The waltz looks/sounds neat as well. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 3:20 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting classes Every dance instructor I've had was hands-on, and it had nothing to do with sight. They observed us and would position us in the proper stances and movements if not doing it right. This was done all the time in ballet, but it was also done when tapping or doing jazz. I'm sure other teachers practice the same method. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 13 Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:12:37 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and actingtolearnnaturalmovementandexpressions Message-ID: <99644498E1F547E9BC1788B266266F9D at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Andi, I do speak with instructors ahead of time, whether it be a gym class at the health club or at school. Most instructors are not willing to be hands on; they have to lead the class and go at a certain pace. I agree that we need hands on instruction for anything movement based like dance, not just verbal cues. At least to learn the steps, being shown helps a lot. I did take kundalini yoga though and the instructor was hands on. But she also had time to do this since it was a slow paced class by its nature. Did you take dance in college? Were they elective classes? If your dance team is like mine was, they did more hip hop dances. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 21:21:09 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:21:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Modeling for learning natural expressions and movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bridgit, Wow, this is interesting. I did not know that modeling classes covered such a variety of topics; I guess I thought it was the make-up and clothes thing. Interviewing skills, how to speak and dining etiquette are great topics. I live near a big city so finding etiquette classes shouldn't be a problem. Although, I don't think modeling is my thing. Did you take those etiquette classes as a blind person? I don't know, but wouldn't they be taught via demonstration and looking at the teacher? If so, I suppose a willing, accomodating teacher could show you what she is teaching. I've looked at etiquette class descriptions. They cover dress, speaking manners, and formal dining etiquette procedures like placement of silverware. Did your etiquette class include a five course meal? What do you mean by teaching you how to move? I know that we're supposed to walk with a smooth gait and straight, meaning no slouched posture. But beyond that, I didn't know there was a formal way to walk. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 1:07 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Modeling for learning natural expressions and movement Ashley, Yes, I took modeling classes when I was younger. I modeled briefly, but didn't enjoy the process. You'd have to look into modeling agencies and classes, and I'm sure only bigger cities would offer anything like this, though you never know. Though models are stereotyped as stupid and artificial, a model has to learn to express something through their body and facial expressions. A model doesn't simply take a picture; they have to "sell" something in a nonverbal way. When I took modeling classes at the Nancy Bounds agency here locally, we not only learned how to walk a runway, we learned how to carry ourselves in all situations, with grace and deportment. We also learned how to apply make-up, what clothes fit us best, interviewing skills, how to speak and even dining etiquette. I've also taken etiquette classes, which is another possible idea since some etiquette classes teach you how to move as well. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 3 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:11:05 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Bridgette, Modeling classes sounds good. Do you speak from experience? Anyone here taken a class? Oh, I did not know they went into how to carry yourself and walk gracefully and using your face to relay things. Those are not offered at community centers or colleges. So where do you take them? Just curious. I wonder if anyone has taken it to just improve their image as we are suggesting, or if all participants do it to pursue modeling. Many people take acting and dance classes, yet its for recreation, not to become a professional actor or dancer. I don't know about modeling classes. Very interesting idea. I've been told I am real expressive when talking both in voice and in my expression. I do not walk correctly; I have a gait. But I have heard I walk pretty well in terms of posture. I could always improve though. I'd also like to learn hand gestures someday; now I only know how to wave goodbye. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 26 21:27:58 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:27:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes Message-ID: 9763dcff-6fa2-4406-9024-b2316ff66c07@samobile.net Vejas, If you're playing the part of a blind character, you can always use your cane. If you're playing a character where it doesn't matter if they're blind or sighted, it's up to you. If you're playing a sighted character, you can always place running lines on the stage that you can feel underfoot. Lots of rehersal helps. These are the techniques that the LCB folks use for their plays. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > I'm pretty good at acting-only problem is moving around and > finding which exact spot to go to in a play-was interested in > drama but my aide thought it might be too visual and choq was the > better place to go > Vejas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:02:17 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes > Hi Bridgit, > I like your idea of becoming familiar with the set. Yeah you're > right that > stage sets are supposed to be set up the same way each time. So > it’s a > matter of memory then and familiarity. Now that I think of it, I > did use my > cane on stage a little in high school drama class while > rehearsing. > What do you mean by performance-based classes? How is that > different than > theatre class? > Facial expressions are vital to acting; but this wasn't an issue > for me. I > think, and hope, I looked expressive as my voice was. > We did body exercises to warm up, but I don't remember doing face > exercises. > Of course, I only took acting 1 though. > You said > "When running lines, you may say the same word, or phrase, over > and over > in order to capture the proper tone and inflection." > I assume you did this in practice/rehearsals. > This makes me interested in trying it. Maybe I should audition > for a > community play or my community college play. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 4:21 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes > Ashley, > I was sighted when I minored in theatre, but I took a couple of > performance-based classes while in my second go-around with > university. > I know we have several blind theatre majors here though. I > memorized my > lines with JAWS- I have a good retention with my short-term > memory. If > you do an entire play, though, I think it would be best to have a > Braille copy of the script. > I did some directing, which I love. I helped direct a few scenes > for a > class even though I wasn't registered for it. The instructor > also taught > another class that I was enrolled in, and she asked if I would be > willing to help direct in her other class. I mostly referred to > my > computer for the script and my notes. I had specific ideas for > the set, > costuming and actors. It helped to go in already prepared, not > trying to > figure things out as we went along. > You could use your cane on stage, but if you're not suppose to be > blind, > it may look a little odd to the audience. Perhaps you could grow > very > familiar with the set so you could walk around safely. Stage > sets are > suppose to be set up the exact way each time, so if you were > accustomed > to it, it would make maneuvering around it a bit more easy, and > you > could leave your cane off stage so when done, you had your cane > to get > around with. > Facial expression is a vital part of the acting process. You > want to > convey the right emotions and characteristics connected with a > character. We would do face exercises along with body exercises > to warm > up, and loosen things up. Whether stage acting or acting for > film and > television, using appropriate facial expressions, and being > expressive > in general, is very important. When acting, you create specific > expressions, movements, inflections, tones, etc. Every little > detail is > disected and explored, then the actor constructs the character, > cognitive of each movement, each expression and how each word is > said. > When running lines, you may say the same word, or phrase, over > and over > in order to capture the proper tone and inflection. > The voice is probably the most important aspect of theatre > because tone > can convey and imply a lot. I was in a local theatre's play, The > Outsiders, and we wore face masks so our performance was > dependent on > the voice and body movement. We had to convey so much with voice > and > body. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 15 > Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:43:22 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: [nabs-l] taking acting classes > Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > Hi all, > What Bridgit said about acting class brought back memories. > She said > ?Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to > body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely > important. > Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body > movements, but > be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform > in front > of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive > criticism, > or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best > option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to > perform > monologues and duets and group scenes.? > Bridgit, you have a minor in theatre; I haven?t met a blind > person who > did that before. Of course you were sighted, so can draw upon > your > experience learning facial expressions and visual expressions. > Did you > braille the script for memorizing it? I cannot memorize by > listening > except for song lyrics! I?m wondering how a blind actor would > move > around the stage safely. I mean you have obstacles up there and > won?t > have your cane since you?re another character. I just depended > on my > vision. Interesting that Bridgit says acting class pays a lot of > attention to > body movement and facial expressions. I don?t recall that > happening. We > did focus on voice though; like volume, tone and expression. > I took acting in high school and the teacher was very easy. I > did not > learn much from it. We spent too much time watching movies > rather than > acting. But I won?t forget our final where we had to do a > monologue. > That was hard! I prefered working with a partner because their > words > clued me into what I had to say. > In college, I also took acting. We did a number of things. > They ranged > from partner work acting scenes, improvization, something like > sherades > where you stand in front of everyone and pretend to do a day > activity, > and of course actual acting with small groups or a partner. We > did > warmups to loosen up; the instructor was very accomodating and > showed > me these stretches and exercises. I enjoyed it. Our acting > exercises > revolved around sensory awareness, and a lot of this was not > visual. A > few were visual exercises which we adapted; like mimicking what > someone > did with their hands. She stressed to be aware of all your > senses and > surroundings. For instance, we did an exercise that you > responded to > someone?s tone. Another was where you simply went and touched a > classmate?s hand. She guided us in what to observe. Was it > rough or > soft? Rinkled or smooth? Boney? I guessed the guy I touched was > athletic > due to his large muscular hands, and If I remember correctly, I > was > right. > She did say you had to show expression, but not just facial > expressions, > but expressions and movement with your whole body. We were > definitely > judged on our performance by peers and the instructor who herself > was an > actress. Still, it was fun. She never said anything about me > needing to > be visually expressive, so maybe I was expressive enough as my > girl > characters, or maybe it didn?t occur to her to say anything. Oh, > we did > not watch movies either. So, I got a lot out of the class. > For the acting scenes, I asked the school to braille them. I got > an A in > the class. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 21:32:09 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:32:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movement andexpression In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5DE647B969864768BE93CACE419D4151@OwnerPC> Bridgit, If I make it to a national convention, it would be cool to see how you dance. Where do you dance performing this swing, hip-hop, and latin dancing? Do you go to formal parties or clubs? I think some night clubs have dance floors and that type of dance is more a hip-hop thing. I've heard from many people that those are easier to pick up. Ballet is one of the harder dance forms; takes more precision, control and balance. Even if you were sighted growing up, I don't know how you found time to learn and practice all these activities! It takes practice to get things right. But it sounds like you were a very well rounded child. I only took private piano lessons as a kid. I remember homework taking up so much time that I did not have much other free time. I was listening and reading books in braille and it took longer to study and do assignments. I could not skim for any answers in the text, nor can I now, but we don't have to answer questions after reading a chapter fortunately. Anyway, did you also learn salsa? Are the rumba and waltz latin dances? What is the cha cha considered? Thanks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:58 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movement andexpression Andi, I danced for almost 20 years. When I was four, when I started, I was a little elf in a local performance of The Nutcracker, and ever since, I've had a life-long love affair with the stage! Smile. My mom was also a dancer and owned her own studio. She recently opened another dance studio after years of not dancing. My feet never bled from ballet pointe, though I would experience aches and pains after dancing for hours. Since I'm diabetic, I took extra care of my feet. I also was on my high school dance team, but senior year decided to do cheerleading and I ended up a captain for the cheerleading squad. I no longer take formal dance classes since I've not found being blind condusive to certain dances especially ballet, at least in terms of how I use to dance. When turning and such, it becomes disorientating and my balance isn't always great, which does not lead to expert conditions for ballet. I do still dance for fun, and while swing, hip-hop, latin dancing still have a very technical aspect, they are fun and can be easier to pick up. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 10 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:20:54 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions Message-ID: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 21:35:12 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:35:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes In-Reply-To: <4ed155a3.83b7340a.5f09.0529@mx.google.com> References: <4ed155a3.83b7340a.5f09.0529@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2EB24CD78DB448A4B1E7BB715DA48C6A@OwnerPC> Vejas, I have vision and used what I saw as cues. I took acting or drama, as we called it in high school. No one questioned it. I also used auditory clues of my partner and other characters to help determine which spot to go to. Another clue was the stage set. I could feel/see the chair in front of me and that helped me know where to sit. If you played a blind character you could use your cane, grin. -----Original Message----- From: vejas Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes I'm pretty good at acting-only problem is moving around and finding which exact spot to go to in a play-was interested in drama but my aide thought it might be too visual and choq was the better place to go Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" Jedi, Running lines? Good idea. I wondered about stage orientation as well. You need to know whether you're at the front or back. How do you do that? Is it a string and masking tape? Yep rehearsals do help. I remember having lots of rehearsal time in acting class and when the performance came, everyone was very familiar with the setup. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:27 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes Vejas, If you're playing the part of a blind character, you can always use your cane. If you're playing a character where it doesn't matter if they're blind or sighted, it's up to you. If you're playing a sighted character, you can always place running lines on the stage that you can feel underfoot. Lots of rehersal helps. These are the techniques that the LCB folks use for their plays. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > I'm pretty good at acting-only problem is moving around and > finding which exact spot to go to in a play-was interested in > drama but my aide thought it might be too visual and choq was the > better place to go > Vejas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:02:17 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes > Hi Bridgit, > I like your idea of becoming familiar with the set. Yeah you're > right that > stage sets are supposed to be set up the same way each time. So > it’s a > matter of memory then and familiarity. Now that I think of it, I > did use my > cane on stage a little in high school drama class while > rehearsing. > What do you mean by performance-based classes? How is that > different than > theatre class? > Facial expressions are vital to acting; but this wasn't an issue > for me. I > think, and hope, I looked expressive as my voice was. > We did body exercises to warm up, but I don't remember doing face > exercises. > Of course, I only took acting 1 though. > You said > "When running lines, you may say the same word, or phrase, over > and over > in order to capture the proper tone and inflection." > I assume you did this in practice/rehearsals. > This makes me interested in trying it. Maybe I should audition > for a > community play or my community college play. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 4:21 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes > Ashley, > I was sighted when I minored in theatre, but I took a couple of > performance-based classes while in my second go-around with > university. > I know we have several blind theatre majors here though. I > memorized my > lines with JAWS- I have a good retention with my short-term > memory. If > you do an entire play, though, I think it would be best to have a > Braille copy of the script. > I did some directing, which I love. I helped direct a few scenes > for a > class even though I wasn't registered for it. The instructor > also taught > another class that I was enrolled in, and she asked if I would be > willing to help direct in her other class. I mostly referred to > my > computer for the script and my notes. I had specific ideas for > the set, > costuming and actors. It helped to go in already prepared, not > trying to > figure things out as we went along. > You could use your cane on stage, but if you're not suppose to be > blind, > it may look a little odd to the audience. Perhaps you could grow > very > familiar with the set so you could walk around safely. Stage > sets are > suppose to be set up the exact way each time, so if you were > accustomed > to it, it would make maneuvering around it a bit more easy, and > you > could leave your cane off stage so when done, you had your cane > to get > around with. > Facial expression is a vital part of the acting process. You > want to > convey the right emotions and characteristics connected with a > character. We would do face exercises along with body exercises > to warm > up, and loosen things up. Whether stage acting or acting for > film and > television, using appropriate facial expressions, and being > expressive > in general, is very important. When acting, you create specific > expressions, movements, inflections, tones, etc. Every little > detail is > disected and explored, then the actor constructs the character, > cognitive of each movement, each expression and how each word is > said. > When running lines, you may say the same word, or phrase, over > and over > in order to capture the proper tone and inflection. > The voice is probably the most important aspect of theatre > because tone > can convey and imply a lot. I was in a local theatre's play, The > Outsiders, and we wore face masks so our performance was > dependent on > the voice and body movement. We had to convey so much with voice > and > body. > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > Message: 15 > Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:43:22 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: [nabs-l] taking acting classes > Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > Hi all, > What Bridgit said about acting class brought back memories. > She said > ?Acting, at least stage acting, pays a lot of attention to > body movement and facial expressions. Voice is also extremely > important. > Taking an acting class can assist with more natural body > movements, but > be aware that in an acting class, you'll be expected to perform > in front > of your peers, being judged. If you can't handle constructive > criticism, > or are extremely introverted, an acting class may not be the best > option. Even in a more informal acting class, you will have to > perform > monologues and duets and group scenes.? > Bridgit, you have a minor in theatre; I haven?t met a blind > person who > did that before. Of course you were sighted, so can draw upon > your > experience learning facial expressions and visual expressions. > Did you > braille the script for memorizing it? I cannot memorize by > listening > except for song lyrics! I?m wondering how a blind actor would > move > around the stage safely. I mean you have obstacles up there and > won?t > have your cane since you?re another character. I just depended > on my > vision. Interesting that Bridgit says acting class pays a lot of > attention to > body movement and facial expressions. I don?t recall that > happening. We > did focus on voice though; like volume, tone and expression. > I took acting in high school and the teacher was very easy. I > did not > learn much from it. We spent too much time watching movies > rather than > acting. But I won?t forget our final where we had to do a > monologue. > That was hard! I prefered working with a partner because their > words > clued me into what I had to say. > In college, I also took acting. We did a number of things. > They ranged > from partner work acting scenes, improvization, something like > sherades > where you stand in front of everyone and pretend to do a day > activity, > and of course actual acting with small groups or a partner. We > did > warmups to loosen up; the instructor was very accomodating and > showed > me these stretches and exercises. I enjoyed it. Our acting > exercises > revolved around sensory awareness, and a lot of this was not > visual. A > few were visual exercises which we adapted; like mimicking what > someone > did with their hands. She stressed to be aware of all your > senses and > surroundings. For instance, we did an exercise that you > responded to > someone?s tone. Another was where you simply went and touched a > classmate?s hand. She guided us in what to observe. Was it > rough or > soft? Rinkled or smooth? Boney? I guessed the guy I touched was > athletic > due to his large muscular hands, and If I remember correctly, I > was > right. > She did say you had to show expression, but not just facial > expressions, > but expressions and movement with your whole body. We were > definitely > judged on our performance by peers and the instructor who herself > was an > actress. Still, it was fun. She never said anything about me > needing to > be visually expressive, so maybe I was expressive enough as my > girl > characters, or maybe it didn?t occur to her to say anything. Oh, > we did > not watch movies either. So, I got a lot out of the class. > For the acting scenes, I asked the school to braille them. I got > an A in > the class. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brlsurfer%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 26 21:50:54 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:50:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: 314989f0-fce4-4bc8-b6ac-357680f3924f@samobile.net References: 314989f0-fce4-4bc8-b6ac-357680f3924f@samobile.net Message-ID: <072239CC07A547608B41BD9CFA424364@OwnerPC> Jedi, Okay. If you model good behavior and hint at the behavior, they'll probably get it. If you point out their rocking, they might stop then since they may not have been aware they were doing it. We agree that communication is hindered by the fading in and out of a voice caused by rocking. So if you cannot hear them clearly, asking them to sit still so you can communicate makes sense. Also, other classes address job readiness there. I would guess they cover grooming, dress, and interview techniques, and how to act for meeting a prospective employer. I'm not saying you should shame people, especially adults, into acting a certain way, but I do think they need to know the correct way-- the widely acceptable manners/ways, so they can decide how to act later on. I took psychology classes and you're right that social modeling theory, put forth by Alfred Bandura, supports this idea that people will model other behavior. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:11 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions That's an interesting point. I will be in a position to role model. As I've indicated, I'm really starting to develop a humanistic viewpoint on the issue. If a person comes to me for training, they probably are interested in learning something about how to interact with the world as a blind person. That interest may be enough to stimulate conversation on things such as common forms of body language and the like, but I feel no serious need to push the issue. I'd rather let my students come to it in their own time when they feel ready to make those choices. But in the meantime, I can best role model by practicing unconditional acceptance. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with their behavior, that just means that I accept it. If I persistently find that some aspect of their behavior is getting in the way of our relationship, then I'll say something tactfully. Like you, I've been annoyed by the in and out fading of a voice belonging to a rocker; this annoyance sometimes makes communication difficult. So I'll say something like "I'm having trouble hearing you because your voice is fading in and out. Would you mind sitting still so I can hear you better?" /But actually, I'd rather start with "Is something going on? I'm noticing that you're rocking back and forth." In both cases, I'm giving them information about their behavior, but I'm not shaming them or threatening them with predictions of social isolation. If they want to know how to appear for a job, I might talk about things like dress, sitting still, and the like. But with all that said, I feel no need to say things like "You shouldn't rock because the sighted will think you look funny and not want to hire you" or "It's important that you blend in." I think the most important and effective way I can model is to model. I can model behaviors for my students that I know are helpful to me. Perhaps the student will pick them up (it's actually quite likely given social modeling theory). Or if the student wants direct advice to me and the time seems appropriate to the conversation, I'll explain what I do, but the choice is still fundamentally up to them as to what they will do. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Jedi, > Since you plan to be a cane travel instructor, > I would think that such odd behavior as rocking would be discouraged. I > know > my O&M teacher discouraged it growing up. She also encouraged me to face > the > person I spoke to. > Yes we are blind and shouldn't hide that fact. But should we look > different > just because we didn't learn body language? I think not. Kids usually > learn > body language by observation, and for us we need to be told it since we > cannot learn visually. You as a teacher can help that process. > You will be a role model. > Now if an adult is reminded not to do that behavior and still does, there > is > not much you can do about it. But I believe blind adults should be aware > of > inappropriate behavior, so they can make a decision what to do. > I engage in some unacceptable behaviors at home like talking to myself, > like thinking out loud, rocking, and popping huge bubbles with gum. But I > know what was appropriate and chose to do them where no one would see me > doing it > in private. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Jedi > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 1:10 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > I hear you Humberto. What you're saying is that, while we may be able > to look and act like sighted people, the fundamental truth is that > we're not sighted; there is some information that we don't get because > it's not non-visual. So no matter what, we're kinda out anyway; we > might be able to look like the sighted, but we may not know exactly > when to turn on that program that says "look this way or that way" > because we don't always get the cues necessary to activate that > programming. Makes sense to me. But I would submit that we have more > access to those cues than most people think. But you're still right > nonetheless. The fact is that we're blind and that we may be a little > different. But that doesn't make us inferior, so why stress about it? > And yes, you're quite right that context is important: we should be > able to match our context for presentation purposes. But that still > doesn't mean we ought to stress about it. > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: >> Hello there: >> Ain't no difference if you're black or white, ain't no difference if >> you're >> sighted or blind! I think that blind people should not be stressed out >> about trying to look 100% like a sighted person, and try to display the >> same >> face looks and body looks or expressions that the sighted people do. I >> say >> this because, A, if I am blind, and I imitate a sighted person's exact >> looks >> and body and face expressions, I'm not sure if I look, for example, >> crooked, >> or my face is poiting to a different direction, or reacting in a way that >> might look a little odd to a sighted person. And, B, if we ever do >> imitate >> the sighted in their exact moves and imitate their facial expressions >> 100% >> right like if we are sighted so as to look like society looks, we would >> only >> be doing one half of the work. Think of our brains and ourselves as >> computer >> programming. We can have every single sighted algorithm installed on our >> brains so that the specific "software" (being our minds and thoughts) is >> capable of triggering all exact facial motions and expressions with our >> bodies and faces, as in input. We would be capable of doing input, but we >> are not capable of the output process. Because our eyes can not see, or >> residually, our "software" (again, as our minds and thoughts) will not be >> able to interact with what is displayed in others, meaning that, we can >> not >> see what others do or what faces or expressions they make. Am I making >> sense? Or am I being too technical here? I'm pretty sure we are all >> familiar >> with these aspects as we all are emailing to this list and we all use >> computers and have knowledge of hardware and software. Back to being >> virtually sighted without eyesight. In conclusion, we have all the >> hardware >> (our eyes, our body and face) and software (our brains and all the habits >> that we setup in our mind sets and our thoughts). Yes, a blind person can >> imitate all the looks 100% of the way, as if he or she is looking like >> the >> sighted society. But how is that blind person expected to react, or >> interact >> with another sighted person when that sighted person is doing a face, or >> expression. One example of this: >> One day one of my cousins who is little said my name. I addressed her as >> if >> we were to have a normal conversation. But instead she went, "look look." >> then there was a very small but sudden pause and then I heard her >> laughing >> as if she had done something that appeared to me funny according to my >> assumption. I again said "what? What is that?" then she laughed again >> just >> like the other time. Now, did she do a facial expression or did she try >> to >> show me something that was funny through the use of a funny body or >> facial >> expression? Yes! But do I know which expression or weird look that was >> funny? Heck no! why? Because my brain does not support the "output" of >> seeing and reacting to that funny expression. If my brain was able to >> support that, I would have laughed along with my cousin. But because I am >> blind, I do not. Do you know what I'm getting to? >> My bottom line is: my fellow students, unless there was a revolutionary >> and >> technological little device that did the most accurate automated audio >> description like in the movies, please do not stress out about trying to >> imitate the sighted population and trying to look like the majority in >> terms >> of doing exact body and facial expressions. Relax! Yes, there is the >> thing >> with job interviews and formal settings and school settings or >> professional >> settings where one has to look great and presentable and look like others >> by >> looking in the face when somebody speaks to one, and the like, but no >> absolute need to try to do the same nonverbal visual face and body >> expressions and worry about how you look in terms of total expressions >> and >> movements like the sighted. Do I make sense? I myself don't want to >> suffer >> by worrying about my looks and movements so much, otherwise it pays just >> 50% >> of the hard work that will pay off. And where will that other 50% be? >> Nowhere? >> Just my 15 cents for what it's worth. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Robin >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:05 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, >> STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon those, who EXHIBIT >> mannerisms of the Blind variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, >> you >> like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP with Ol"Sighty and do NOT >> expect others in "The Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. >> ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a >> Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. >> At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >>> Bridgit, >>> Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. >>> Like you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im >>> cognitively or developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities >>> are very different. Those with those disabilities function at a teen or >>> child level; their body is grown, their mind is not. >>> It is not their fault, it is the way they are built. And I just loved >>> your anecdotes to back up your point. >>> I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >>> assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have >>> been treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its >>> definitely degrading and frustrating. I think we should change >>> behaviors that we can; after all a sighted person growing up would be >>> expected to extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be >>> treated like everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>> Marc, >>> First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >>> However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >>> negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >>> is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >>> disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver >>> through life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few >>> family members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I >>> know a little about it. >>> Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >>> physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >>> disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >>> more difficult to navigate through situations. >>> I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand >>> basic information that the average person with no cognitive problem >>> understand with no effort. When we have physical and sensory >>> disabilities only, we don't require most information, basic >>> information, to be broken down and simplified. We're not talking about >>> Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings intellect here, but the average >>> intellectual >> capacity most of us have. >>> While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >>> test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >>> understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >>> my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >>> was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >>> few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >>> understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked >>> the doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This >>> woman assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't >>> comprehend information stated to all patients just because I was blind. >>> Regardless of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, >>> disabled or not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned >>> being a 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some >>> people all ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their >>> grossly misinformed notions? >>> Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >>> intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >>> either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >>> something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >>> blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if >>> you don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is >>> necessarily "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can >>> present unique barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >>> Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >>> parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >>> general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, >>> even with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or >>> lawyer, and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be >>> done. It does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even >>> higher functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the >>> intellectual capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. >>> Blindness, however, isn't necessarily holding us back in an >>> intellectual way. Individual people may question our ability, but we >>> have the capacity in which to prove how capable we are. Many blind >>> people face discrimination because of their blindness. In my experience >>> though, if you present yourself with confidence, look and act polished, >>> people are more likely to give you an opportunity. If you don't appear >>> put-together, exhibit mannerisms even considered inappropriate for >>> sighted people and don't carry yourself with confidence and/or >>> intelligence, it doesn't matter what your resume says, what >>> recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, people will be more >>> wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's reality, dude. >>> A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >>> early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >>> since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >>> aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >>> award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >>> thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able >>> to care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a >>> mere sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at >>> least to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to >>> oranges. >>> And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >>> behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >>> now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >>> unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >>> attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >>> Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >>> this issue. >>> If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >>> makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >>> not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >>> we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >>> only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >>> disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. >>> You can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >>> You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >>> with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >>> but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >>> And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >>> even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response >>> to my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >>> demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? >>> Stop making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >>> former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >>> with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >>> had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >>> I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >>> something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of >>> their disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, >>> I know some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >>> And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >>> engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >>> correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >>> changing minds about our actual abilities. >>> Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >>> but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme >>> behaviors are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they >>> are capable of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, >>> ourselves included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real >>> problem, instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements >>> not socially acceptable. >>> You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >>> sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us >>> quirks and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of >>> reverse prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't >>> see, why, once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight >>> card? I don't consider myself different from anyone else I know other >>> than I can't use my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end >>> stereotypes and change negative attitudes, but I don't place >>> distinctions that, though reverse, perpetuate the idea that we're >> different. >>> The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >>> established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >>> or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people >>> assume, people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world >>> will show you how complex this is. >>> On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >>> always right, giggle! >>> Sincerely, >>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>> Read my blog at: >>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>> , Message: 6 >>> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >>> From: Marc Workman >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> Bridgit wrote, >>> why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >>> Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >>> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >>> people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >>> society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >>> disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >>> Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >>> disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >>> people not to look blind. >>> why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >>> people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually >>> disabled people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? >>> The fact is intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually >>> disabled, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, >>> put in our path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >>> Ashley wrote, >>> I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >>> it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >>> Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >>> makes us look worse. >>> It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >>> delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >>> rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >>> disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a >>> blind person. >>> I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >>> "retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading >>> word, is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same >>> negative attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all >>> supposed to be fighting against with respect to blindness. >>> Bridgit wrote, >>> Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >>> appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >>> What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >>> decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >>> this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >>> appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >>> when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >>> talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >>> to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >>> people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >>> the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the >>> attitudes about women and minorities that have been challenged and >>> changed? >>> Ashley wrote, >>> Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >>> your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >>> I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are >>> not mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that >>> bothers me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about >>> blindness that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, >>> as ugly, as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to >>> deal with these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like >>> most people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach >>> them that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but >>> that this is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path >>> is of course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority >>> than the majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to >>> the world that is better for everyone. >>> I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >>> celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >>> Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >>> Cheers, >>> Marc >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earth >>> link.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthl >>> ink.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >> mail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 26 22:26:51 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 17:26:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: f8cbffb8-41be-469d-a029-52f283e145a1@samobile.net Ashley, Since you've taken psychology, you're no doubt familiar with Carl Rogers. He believed that six conditions are necessary and sufficient for personal growth in the context of a helping relationship such as a teacher/student relationship , a counselor/client relationship, etc. First, he felt that the most effective helpers provide unconditional positive regard or acceptance of the helpee so the helpee has the room they need to explore their experience without shame or judgment. Next, he felt that effective helpers constantly attempt to understand their helpee's experience empathically since such understanding often provides a sense of relief in and of itself to the helpee; a person who feels understood and heard has an easier time understanding their own experience and making sense of it. Next, he felt that effective helpers are congruent or authentic: this means no agendas, no sense of superiority, etc; it also means that helpers are honest about how they are being affected in the relationship, but do so in a manner that still promotes unconditional positive regard (the helpee is likely to accept this honesty since they feel totally heard and understood by the helper). Next, he felt that the helpee needs to experience the helper's genuine attempts toward the first three conditions. He also felt that there needs to be deep contact between helpee and helper (in other words, they need to be human together rather than apart from each other based on some facade). Finally, he recognized that a person comes to the helper because the person is in some distress or needs something; that person is experiencing some kind of vulnerability or anxiety probably caused by their own lack of self-acceptance, their own incongruity between how they feel versus what they do, and their own lack of self-understanding or self-awareness. I'd say blind students in a training center fit that profile: students tend to come in feeling anxious about blindness or even unhappy with themselves as blind people, totally unaware of their full potential and sometimes unaware of how they feel about their own blindness, and some incongruity or discrepency between where they are and where they'd like to be if given the chance. All that said, it would make sense then that Rogers' philosophy could very much apply in blindness training. And I don't believe this stuff just because Rogers says it's so. I've had some personal experiences over the last two years or so that have led me to more or less the same conclusions only stated less neatly. Over time, I've been learning to trust myself, my choice-making ability, and my experiences. I guess learning Rogers' philosophy is encouraging me to trust other people, their choice-making ability, and their experiences, too. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Jedi, > Okay. If you model good behavior and hint at the behavior, they'll probably > get it. > If you point out their rocking, they might stop then since they may not have > been aware they were doing it. We agree that communication is hindered by > the fading in and out of a voice caused by rocking. > So if you cannot hear them clearly, asking them to sit still so you can > communicate makes sense. > Also, other classes address job readiness there. I would guess they cover > grooming, dress, and interview techniques, and how to act for meeting a > prospective employer. I'm not saying you should shame people, especially > adults, into acting a certain way, but I do think they need to know the > correct way-- the widely acceptable manners/ways, so they can decide how to > act later on. > I took psychology classes and you're right that social modeling theory, put > forth by Alfred Bandura, supports this idea that people will model other > behavior. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Jedi > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:11 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > That's an interesting point. I will be in a position to role model. As > I've indicated, I'm really starting to develop a humanistic viewpoint > on the issue. If a person comes to me for training, they probably are > interested in learning something about how to interact with the world > as a blind person. That interest may be enough to stimulate > conversation on things such as common forms of body language and the > like, but I feel no serious need to push the issue. I'd rather let my > students come to it in their own time when they feel ready to make > those choices. But in the meantime, I can best role model by practicing > unconditional acceptance. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with > their behavior, that just means that I accept it. If I persistently > find that some aspect of their behavior is getting in the way of our > relationship, then I'll say something tactfully. Like you, I've been > annoyed by the in and out fading of a voice belonging to a rocker; this > annoyance sometimes makes communication difficult. So I'll say > something like "I'm having trouble hearing you because your voice is > fading in and out. Would you mind sitting still so I can hear you > better?" /But actually, I'd rather start with "Is something going on? > I'm noticing that you're rocking back and forth." In both cases, I'm > giving them information about their behavior, but I'm not shaming them > or threatening them with predictions of social isolation. If they want > to know how to appear for a job, I might talk about things like dress, > sitting still, and the like. But with all that said, I feel no need to > say things like "You shouldn't rock because the sighted will think you > look funny and not want to hire you" or "It's important that you blend > in." I think the most important and effective way I can model is to > model. I can model behaviors for my students that I know are helpful to > me. Perhaps the student will pick them up (it's actually quite likely > given social modeling theory). Or if the student wants direct advice to > me and the time seems appropriate to the conversation, I'll explain > what I do, but the choice is still fundamentally up to them as to what > they will do. > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: >> Jedi, >> Since you plan to be a cane travel instructor, >> I would think that such odd behavior as rocking would be discouraged. I >> know >> my O&M teacher discouraged it growing up. She also encouraged me to face >> the >> person I spoke to. >> Yes we are blind and shouldn't hide that fact. But should we look >> different >> just because we didn't learn body language? I think not. Kids usually >> learn >> body language by observation, and for us we need to be told it since we >> cannot learn visually. You as a teacher can help that process. >> You will be a role model. >> Now if an adult is reminded not to do that behavior and still does, there >> is >> not much you can do about it. But I believe blind adults should be aware >> of >> inappropriate behavior, so they can make a decision what to do. >> I engage in some unacceptable behaviors at home like talking to myself, >> like thinking out loud, rocking, and popping huge bubbles with gum. But I >> know what was appropriate and chose to do them where no one would see me >> doing it >> in private. >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jedi >> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 1:10 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> I hear you Humberto. What you're saying is that, while we may be able >> to look and act like sighted people, the fundamental truth is that >> we're not sighted; there is some information that we don't get because >> it's not non-visual. So no matter what, we're kinda out anyway; we >> might be able to look like the sighted, but we may not know exactly >> when to turn on that program that says "look this way or that way" >> because we don't always get the cues necessary to activate that >> programming. Makes sense to me. But I would submit that we have more >> access to those cues than most people think. But you're still right >> nonetheless. The fact is that we're blind and that we may be a little >> different. But that doesn't make us inferior, so why stress about it? >> And yes, you're quite right that context is important: we should be >> able to match our context for presentation purposes. But that still >> doesn't mean we ought to stress about it. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> Hello there: >>> Ain't no difference if you're black or white, ain't no difference if >>> you're >>> sighted or blind! I think that blind people should not be stressed out >>> about trying to look 100% like a sighted person, and try to display the >>> same >>> face looks and body looks or expressions that the sighted people do. I >>> say >>> this because, A, if I am blind, and I imitate a sighted person's exact >>> looks >>> and body and face expressions, I'm not sure if I look, for example, >>> crooked, >>> or my face is poiting to a different direction, or reacting in a way that >>> might look a little odd to a sighted person. And, B, if we ever do >>> imitate >>> the sighted in their exact moves and imitate their facial expressions >>> 100% >>> right like if we are sighted so as to look like society looks, we would >>> only >>> be doing one half of the work. Think of our brains and ourselves as >>> computer >>> programming. We can have every single sighted algorithm installed on our >>> brains so that the specific "software" (being our minds and thoughts) is >>> capable of triggering all exact facial motions and expressions with our >>> bodies and faces, as in input. We would be capable of doing input, but we >>> are not capable of the output process. Because our eyes can not see, or >>> residually, our "software" (again, as our minds and thoughts) will not be >>> able to interact with what is displayed in others, meaning that, we can >>> not >>> see what others do or what faces or expressions they make. Am I making >>> sense? Or am I being too technical here? I'm pretty sure we are all >>> familiar >>> with these aspects as we all are emailing to this list and we all use >>> computers and have knowledge of hardware and software. Back to being >>> virtually sighted without eyesight. In conclusion, we have all the >>> hardware >>> (our eyes, our body and face) and software (our brains and all the habits >>> that we setup in our mind sets and our thoughts). Yes, a blind person can >>> imitate all the looks 100% of the way, as if he or she is looking like >>> the >>> sighted society. But how is that blind person expected to react, or >>> interact >>> with another sighted person when that sighted person is doing a face, or >>> expression. One example of this: >>> One day one of my cousins who is little said my name. I addressed her as >>> if >>> we were to have a normal conversation. But instead she went, "look look." >>> then there was a very small but sudden pause and then I heard her >>> laughing >>> as if she had done something that appeared to me funny according to my >>> assumption. I again said "what? What is that?" then she laughed again >>> just >>> like the other time. Now, did she do a facial expression or did she try >>> to >>> show me something that was funny through the use of a funny body or >>> facial >>> expression? Yes! But do I know which expression or weird look that was >>> funny? Heck no! why? Because my brain does not support the "output" of >>> seeing and reacting to that funny expression. If my brain was able to >>> support that, I would have laughed along with my cousin. But because I am >>> blind, I do not. Do you know what I'm getting to? >>> My bottom line is: my fellow students, unless there was a revolutionary >>> and >>> technological little device that did the most accurate automated audio >>> description like in the movies, please do not stress out about trying to >>> imitate the sighted population and trying to look like the majority in >>> terms >>> of doing exact body and facial expressions. Relax! Yes, there is the >>> thing >>> with job interviews and formal settings and school settings or >>> professional >>> settings where one has to look great and presentable and look like others >>> by >>> looking in the face when somebody speaks to one, and the like, but no >>> absolute need to try to do the same nonverbal visual face and body >>> expressions and worry about how you look in terms of total expressions >>> and >>> movements like the sighted. Do I make sense? I myself don't want to >>> suffer >>> by worrying about my looks and movements so much, otherwise it pays just >>> 50% >>> of the hard work that will pay off. And where will that other 50% be? >>> Nowhere? >>> Just my 15 cents for what it's worth. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Robin >>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:05 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>> Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, >>> STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon those, who EXHIBIT >>> mannerisms of the Blind variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, >>> you >>> like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP with Ol"Sighty and do NOT >>> expect others in "The Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. >>> ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a >>> Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. >>> At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >>>> Bridgit, >>>> Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. >>>> Like you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im >>>> cognitively or developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities >>>> are very different. Those with those disabilities function at a teen or >>>> child level; their body is grown, their mind is not. >>>> It is not their fault, it is the way they are built. And I just loved >>>> your anecdotes to back up your point. >>>> I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >>>> assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have >>>> been treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its >>>> definitely degrading and frustrating. I think we should change >>>> behaviors that we can; after all a sighted person growing up would be >>>> expected to extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be >>>> treated like everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. >>>> Ashley >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>>> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>>> Marc, >>>> First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >>>> However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >>>> negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >>>> is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >>>> disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver >>>> through life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few >>>> family members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I >>>> know a little about it. >>>> Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >>>> physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >>>> disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >>>> more difficult to navigate through situations. >>>> I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand >>>> basic information that the average person with no cognitive problem >>>> understand with no effort. When we have physical and sensory >>>> disabilities only, we don't require most information, basic >>>> information, to be broken down and simplified. We're not talking about >>>> Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings intellect here, but the average >>>> intellectual >>> capacity most of us have. >>>> While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >>>> test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >>>> understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >>>> my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >>>> was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >>>> few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >>>> understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked >>>> the doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This >>>> woman assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't >>>> comprehend information stated to all patients just because I was blind. >>>> Regardless of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, >>>> disabled or not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned >>>> being a 30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some >>>> people all ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their >>>> grossly misinformed notions? >>>> Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >>>> intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >>>> either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >>>> something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >>>> blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if >>>> you don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is >>>> necessarily "worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can >>>> present unique barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >>>> Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >>>> parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >>>> general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, >>>> even with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or >>>> lawyer, and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be >>>> done. It does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even >>>> higher functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the >>>> intellectual capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. >>>> Blindness, however, isn't necessarily holding us back in an >>>> intellectual way. Individual people may question our ability, but we >>>> have the capacity in which to prove how capable we are. Many blind >>>> people face discrimination because of their blindness. In my experience >>>> though, if you present yourself with confidence, look and act polished, >>>> people are more likely to give you an opportunity. If you don't appear >>>> put-together, exhibit mannerisms even considered inappropriate for >>>> sighted people and don't carry yourself with confidence and/or >>>> intelligence, it doesn't matter what your resume says, what >>>> recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, people will be more >>>> wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's reality, dude. >>>> A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >>>> early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >>>> since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >>>> aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >>>> award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >>>> thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able >>>> to care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a >>>> mere sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at >>>> least to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to >>>> oranges. >>>> And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >>>> behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >>>> now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >>>> unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >>>> attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >>>> Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >>>> this issue. >>>> If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >>>> makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >>>> not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >>>> we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >>>> only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >>>> disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. >>>> You can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >>>> You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >>>> with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >>>> but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >>>> And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >>>> even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response >>>> to my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >>>> demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? >>>> Stop making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >>>> former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >>>> with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >>>> had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >>>> I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >>>> something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of >>>> their disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, >>>> I know some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >>>> And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >>>> engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >>>> correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >>>> changing minds about our actual abilities. >>>> Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >>>> but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme >>>> behaviors are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they >>>> are capable of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, >>>> ourselves included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real >>>> problem, instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements >>>> not socially acceptable. >>>> You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >>>> sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us >>>> quirks and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of >>>> reverse prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't >>>> see, why, once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight >>>> card? I don't consider myself different from anyone else I know other >>>> than I can't use my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end >>>> stereotypes and change negative attitudes, but I don't place >>>> distinctions that, though reverse, perpetuate the idea that we're >>> different. >>>> The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >>>> established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >>>> or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people >>>> assume, people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world >>>> will show you how complex this is. >>>> On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >>>> always right, giggle! >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>>> Read my blog at: >>>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>>> , Message: 6 >>>> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >>>> From: Marc Workman >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>>> Message-ID: >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>> Bridgit wrote, >>>> why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >>>> Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >>>> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >>>> people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >>>> society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >>>> disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >>>> Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >>>> disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >>>> people not to look blind. >>>> why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >>>> people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually >>>> disabled people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? >>>> The fact is intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually >>>> disabled, have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, >>>> put in our path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >>>> Ashley wrote, >>>> I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >>>> it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >>>> Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >>>> makes us look worse. >>>> It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >>>> delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >>>> rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >>>> disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a >>>> blind person. >>>> I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >>>> "retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading >>>> word, is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same >>>> negative attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all >>>> supposed to be fighting against with respect to blindness. >>>> Bridgit wrote, >>>> Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >>>> appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >>>> What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >>>> decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >>>> this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >>>> appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >>>> when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >>>> talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >>>> to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >>>> people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >>>> the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the >>>> attitudes about women and minorities that have been challenged and >>>> changed? >>>> Ashley wrote, >>>> Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >>>> your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >>>> I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are >>>> not mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that >>>> bothers me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about >>>> blindness that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, >>>> as ugly, as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to >>>> deal with these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like >>>> most people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach >>>> them that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but >>>> that this is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path >>>> is of course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority >>>> than the majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to >>>> the world that is better for everyone. >>>> I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >>>> celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >>>> Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Marc >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earth >>>> link.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthl >>>> ink.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >>> mail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 02:16:27 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:16:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111126115630.049b4a80@earthlink.net> References: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC><7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20111126115630.049b4a80@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01F124AEDE6240E4A713FCC380DED3E8@OwnerPC> That song does not refer to literal rocking. It is a use of slang that refers to the music and dancing that the robin does. So I do not believe it is justification for unacceptable behaviors. I say unacceptable because it makes people who exhibit that behavior look cognitively impaired. I don't like it any more than you do but it is the society we live in. Not only that but most sighted people do not see many blind people in their lives if any, so when they see one blind person they assume all blind people are that way weather that is positive or negative. It is annoying and ignorant for people to lump all blind people in to a standard perception, but it is how it go's. When a blind person makes themselves look bad in that way they make all blind people look bad. Similarly if a blind person acts with social graces then they make all blind people look good. Like I said it is silly to think this way and I don't like being lumped in a category but it is how society works and it is not going to change anytime soon. Yes we can work towards a more excepting society but it is a slow moving progression. Andi -----Original Message----- From: Robin Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 3:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior Good Day, Miss Ashley, I'm SORRY that you FEEL that way and I'm pretty much sure there are a number of others who feel the same way, but that doesn't make it RIGHT. I don't EXHIBIT the type of behavior of Rockin', but I'm sure I EXHIBIT some type of behavior that isn't SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE. Everyone EXHIBITS some type of odd behavior some are MORE PRONOUNCED than others. Why should some be looked down upon while others are not? What we NEED is MORE UNDERSTANDINGand ACCEPTANCE!!! And this IS 4 you. Rockin' Robin He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Every little swallow, every chick-a-dee Every little bird in the tall oak tree The wise old owl, the big black crow Flappin' their wings singing go bird go Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Yeah yeah Pretty little raven at the bird-band stand Told them how to do the bob and it was grand They started going steady and bless my soul He out-bopped the buzzard and the oriol He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Pretty little raven at the bird-band stand Told them how to do the bop and it was grand They started going steady and bless my soul He out-bopped the buzzard and the oriol He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight At 08:36 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: >If you want to exhibit odd behavior, you might change your mind when you >try and get a job. >I hope they discourage this behavior at NFB centers. When I read Jim >Omvig's book partially, one ingredient of training was to blend in and >appear >acceptable. And BTW, its not just about appearance. If you rock, I find it >harder to hear people as their voice keeps moving. >Also, if they fail to look at me, their voice sounds muffled as they look >down. Sorry to be blunt and sound imposing, but its reality. >If you don't agree, fine, but I suspect no one will want to hire someone >who does not act socially appropriate. > > >-----Original Message----- From: Robin >Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:04 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > >Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, > >STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon >those, who EXHIBIT mannerisms of the Blind >variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, >you like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP >with Ol"Sighty and do NOT expect others in "The >Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. >ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a >Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. > >At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >>Bridgit, >>Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. Like >>you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im cognitively or >>developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities are very different. >>Those with those disabilities function at a teen or child level; their >>body is grown, their mind is not. It is not their fault, it is the way >>they are built. And I just loved your anecdotes to back up your point. >> >>I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >>assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have been >>treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its definitely >>degrading and frustrating. I think we should change behaviors that we >>can; after all a sighted person growing up would be expected to >>extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be treated like >>everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. >> >>Ashley >> >>-----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> >>Marc, >> >>First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >> >>However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >>negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >>is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >>disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >>life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >>members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >>little about it. >> >>Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >>physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >>disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >>more difficult to navigate through situations. >> >>I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >>information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >>with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >>don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >>simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >>intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. >> >>While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >>test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >>understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >>my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >>was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >>few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >>understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >>doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >>assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >>information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >>of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >>not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >>30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >>ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >>misinformed notions? >> >>Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >>intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >>either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >>something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >>blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >>don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >>"worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >>barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >> >>Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >>parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >>general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >>with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >>and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >>does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >>functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >>capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >>isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >>people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >>prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >>of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >>with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >>you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >>even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >>yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >>your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >>people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >>reality, dude. >> >>A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >>early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >>since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >>aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >>award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >>thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >>care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >>sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >>to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. >> >>And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >>behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >>now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >>unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >>attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >>Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >>this issue. >> >>If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >>makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >>not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >>we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >>only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >>disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >>can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >> >>You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >>with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >>but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >> >>And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >>even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >>my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >>demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >>making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >>former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >>with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >>had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >>I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >>something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >>disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >>some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >> >>And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >>engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >>correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >>changing minds about our actual abilities. >> >>Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >>but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >>are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >>of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >>included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >>instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >>socially acceptable. >> >>You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >>sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >>and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >>prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >>once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >>consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >>my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >>negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >>perpetuate the idea that we're different. >> >>The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >>established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >>or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >>people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >>you how complex this is. >> >>On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >>always right, giggle! >> >>Sincerely, >>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>Read my blog at: >>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >>, Message: 6 >>Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >>From: Marc Workman >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>Message-ID: >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >>Bridgit wrote, >>why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >>Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >>give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >>people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >>society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >>disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >> >>Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >>disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >>people not to look blind. >> >>why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >>people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >>people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >>intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >>have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >>path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >> >>Ashley wrote, >>I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >>it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >>Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >>makes us look worse. >> >>It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >>delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >>rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >>disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >>person. >> >>I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >>"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >>is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >>attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >>fighting against with respect to blindness. >> >>Bridgit wrote, >>Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >>appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >> >>What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >>decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >>this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >>appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >>when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >>talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >>to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >>people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >>the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >>about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? >> >>Ashley wrote, >>Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >>your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >> >>I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >>mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >>me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >>that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >>as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >>these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >>people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >>that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >>is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >>course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >>majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >>that is better for everyone. >> >>I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >>celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >>Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Marc >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 02:28:53 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:28:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movementandexpression In-Reply-To: <5DE647B969864768BE93CACE419D4151@OwnerPC> References: <5DE647B969864768BE93CACE419D4151@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <9CB16EC63A664097A6BD8C307CAC2586@OwnerPC> The cha cha is latton ballroom Andi -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movementandexpression Bridgit, If I make it to a national convention, it would be cool to see how you dance. Where do you dance performing this swing, hip-hop, and latin dancing? Do you go to formal parties or clubs? I think some night clubs have dance floors and that type of dance is more a hip-hop thing. I've heard from many people that those are easier to pick up. Ballet is one of the harder dance forms; takes more precision, control and balance. Even if you were sighted growing up, I don't know how you found time to learn and practice all these activities! It takes practice to get things right. But it sounds like you were a very well rounded child. I only took private piano lessons as a kid. I remember homework taking up so much time that I did not have much other free time. I was listening and reading books in braille and it took longer to study and do assignments. I could not skim for any answers in the text, nor can I now, but we don't have to answer questions after reading a chapter fortunately. Anyway, did you also learn salsa? Are the rumba and waltz latin dances? What is the cha cha considered? Thanks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 11:58 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movement andexpression Andi, I danced for almost 20 years. When I was four, when I started, I was a little elf in a local performance of The Nutcracker, and ever since, I've had a life-long love affair with the stage! Smile. My mom was also a dancer and owned her own studio. She recently opened another dance studio after years of not dancing. My feet never bled from ballet pointe, though I would experience aches and pains after dancing for hours. Since I'm diabetic, I took extra care of my feet. I also was on my high school dance team, but senior year decided to do cheerleading and I ended up a captain for the cheerleading squad. I no longer take formal dance classes since I've not found being blind condusive to certain dances especially ballet, at least in terms of how I use to dance. When turning and such, it becomes disorientating and my balance isn't always great, which does not lead to expert conditions for ballet. I do still dance for fun, and while swing, hip-hop, latin dancing still have a very technical aspect, they are fun and can be easier to pick up. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 10 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:20:54 -0500 From: "Andi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting to learn natural movement andexpressions Message-ID: <96B7D08F237E44C68722DE7ABBD91A05 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Yes any dance form to truly be performance ready takes many years and dedacation, but any dance class would be helpful. I took several diferent dance classes for many years and was on my HI school and college dance teams so I agree with what you are saying. However there are shorter classes designed to give the basics in lattin ballroom, swing, treditional ball room, and hip hop. The Y offers such classes as well as community colleges. It will not make anyone a professional but it will deffenatly help. Zoomba classes are also offered at many gyms and will be just as helpful as well as give anyone who does it a rockin body. You are so right about the acting classes and I never thought of moddaling classes. I think it is awesome you did ballet that was one thing I never had the disaplin for. I didn't like the idea of my feet bleeding. It is so beautiful though. I took the easy way on that front and did moddern. My favorite was lattin ballroom though because I like the rhythms and how sexy it feels and looks. I allso really loved swing because it is so fun and hi energy that even if you mess up you cant help but smile. Also it is much simpaler to cover a mistake in swing. How long did you dance for? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 02:36:13 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 20:36:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Using the word retard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carly, I never said we should completely eliminate the word retard from the vernacular; I just don't appreciate the use in which most people now say the word. It is often said with negative conotations, and I've heard people from all age groups apply the word retard to a person, or thing, with the intent to demean. The word itself, yes, means simply slow. It's used in musical composition, and it was originally used to describe people with slower mental capacities, but it has taken on very negative tones, similar to using the word "gay" as in homosexual, except it is often used in a negative way and not to simply describe. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 9 Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 18:54:40 -0800 From: Carly To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125171625.01cbae78 at earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Hi, Marc, and Bridgit, If you notice, the word "retarded" simply describes someone who is slower to complete brain function.Furthermore, It doesn't seem right by anyone's calculations to, effectively and literally as Brigit suggests avoid that particular word altogether, Wouldn't Doing so be in some way singling those folks who happened to process slower than is the norm, out? If one is to get past the idea that, actual intent in which something is termed, carries more meaning than does meaningless, verbeage which, itself doesn't really communicate anything baring substance?I am brain damaged, so my processing functions seem a little bit retarded sometimes yet, I most certainly do not appreciate the politically, correct construct they came up with, that by effectively erasing the concept, of being retarded, from the vernacular, so too will those unsightlies, be effectively, erased? in retardation, Carly From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 02:43:27 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 20:43:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jedi, The study was based off of an actual investigation. The teacher didn't merely learn of the behavior and draw a conclusion. The boy, 11 or 12 years of age, or so, was questioned along with his parents and other teachers. While we shouldn't assume a behavior is only specific to the disability, we also can't be so unwilling to admit that behavior can in deed develop because of a disability. Based on the investigation that happened over time, it was discovered that the boy had no concept of how sight clearly worked, and he was not aware that his physical behavior could be observed by others. This was not an assumption of the teachers, nor was it my immediate conclusion upon reading the article. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 10 Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:57:25 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: 79e8ce20-cf7e-411b-b87a-131a5624fde7 at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Bridgit, The blind teacher in the study may have concluded that the boy's behavior is due to his not knowing how sight works, but you yourself caution the overattribution of behavior to blindness. That said, it seems to me that prudence is required in interpreting this study: just because the blind teacher said the boy doesn't understand how sight works thus deciding that masturbation in public is okay, that doesn't make it so. Respectfully, Jedi From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 02:47:44 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 20:47:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Robin, I am not equating masturbation to rocking. I simply am saying that behavior specific to a person with a disability shouldn't automatically be acceptable. I said my point was exaggerated and extreme in order to illustrate it. I think our schools need to start teaching better analytical skills and developing more careful readers. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 11 Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 19:07:45 -0800 From: Robin To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125190459.04c4e6f0 at earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Good Evenin', Miss Bridget, All I'm GOIN' to say IS that you CAN'T equate masturbating with rockin'? NUFF Said!! From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 27 02:55:52 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:55:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior In-Reply-To: <01F124AEDE6240E4A713FCC380DED3E8@OwnerPC> References: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC><7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net><7.0.1.0.2.20111126115630.049b4a80@earthlink.net> <01F124AEDE6240E4A713FCC380DED3E8@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <751D1FBEA1B14CA5996739EB21947DC4@OwnerPC> Thanks. Andi, I wanted to say that; that song does not reference literal rocking. But I think I was getting too disgusted over the idea of blind people rocking. It shouldn't happen, not in public. I think its hard to stop, but it’s a bad behavior reinforcing negative attitudes. If you feel the need to rock, please try and do it at home, in your dorm room, or somewhere out of the public eye. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 9:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior That song does not refer to literal rocking. It is a use of slang that refers to the music and dancing that the robin does. So I do not believe it is justification for unacceptable behaviors. I say unacceptable because it makes people who exhibit that behavior look cognitively impaired. I don't like it any more than you do but it is the society we live in. Not only that but most sighted people do not see many blind people in their lives if any, so when they see one blind person they assume all blind people are that way weather that is positive or negative. It is annoying and ignorant for people to lump all blind people in to a standard perception, but it is how it go's. When a blind person makes themselves look bad in that way they make all blind people look bad. Similarly if a blind person acts with social graces then they make all blind people look good. Like I said it is silly to think this way and I don't like being lumped in a category but it is how society works and it is not going to change anytime soon. Yes we can work towards a more excepting society but it is a slow moving progression. Andi -----Original Message----- From: Robin Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 3:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior Good Day, Miss Ashley, I'm SORRY that you FEEL that way and I'm pretty much sure there are a number of others who feel the same way, but that doesn't make it RIGHT. I don't EXHIBIT the type of behavior of Rockin', but I'm sure I EXHIBIT some type of behavior that isn't SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE. Everyone EXHIBITS some type of odd behavior some are MORE PRONOUNCED than others. Why should some be looked down upon while others are not? What we NEED is MORE UNDERSTANDINGand ACCEPTANCE!!! And this IS 4 you. Rockin' Robin He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Every little swallow, every chick-a-dee Every little bird in the tall oak tree The wise old owl, the big black crow Flappin' their wings singing go bird go Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Yeah yeah Pretty little raven at the bird-band stand Told them how to do the bob and it was grand They started going steady and bless my soul He out-bopped the buzzard and the oriol He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Pretty little raven at the bird-band stand Told them how to do the bop and it was grand They started going steady and bless my soul He out-bopped the buzzard and the oriol He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight At 08:36 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: >If you want to exhibit odd behavior, you might change your mind when you >try and get a job. >I hope they discourage this behavior at NFB centers. When I read Jim >Omvig's book partially, one ingredient of training was to blend in and >appear >acceptable. And BTW, its not just about appearance. If you rock, I find it >harder to hear people as their voice keeps moving. >Also, if they fail to look at me, their voice sounds muffled as they look >down. Sorry to be blunt and sound imposing, but its reality. >If you don't agree, fine, but I suspect no one will want to hire someone >who does not act socially appropriate. > > >-----Original Message----- From: Robin >Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:04 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > >Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, > >STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon >those, who EXHIBIT mannerisms of the Blind >variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, >you like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP >with Ol"Sighty and do NOT expect others in "The >Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. >ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a >Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. > >At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >>Bridgit, >>Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. Like >>you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im cognitively or >>developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities are very different. >>Those with those disabilities function at a teen or child level; their >>body is grown, their mind is not. It is not their fault, it is the way >>they are built. And I just loved your anecdotes to back up your point. >> >>I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >>assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have been >>treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its definitely >>degrading and frustrating. I think we should change behaviors that we >>can; after all a sighted person growing up would be expected to >>extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be treated like >>everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. >> >>Ashley >> >>-----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> >>Marc, >> >>First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >> >>However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >>negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >>is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >>disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >>life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >>members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >>little about it. >> >>Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >>physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >>disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >>more difficult to navigate through situations. >> >>I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >>information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >>with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >>don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >>simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >>intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. >> >>While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >>test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >>understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >>my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >>was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >>few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >>understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >>doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >>assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >>information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >>of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >>not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >>30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >>ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >>misinformed notions? >> >>Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >>intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >>either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >>something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >>blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >>don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >>"worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >>barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >> >>Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >>parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >>general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >>with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >>and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >>does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >>functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >>capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >>isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >>people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >>prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >>of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >>with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >>you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >>even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >>yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >>your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >>people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >>reality, dude. >> >>A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >>early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >>since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >>aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >>award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >>thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >>care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >>sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >>to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. >> >>And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >>behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >>now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >>unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >>attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >>Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >>this issue. >> >>If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >>makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >>not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >>we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >>only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >>disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >>can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >> >>You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >>with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >>but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >> >>And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >>even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >>my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >>demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >>making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >>former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >>with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >>had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >>I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >>something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >>disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >>some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >> >>And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >>engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >>correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >>changing minds about our actual abilities. >> >>Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >>but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >>are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >>of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >>included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >>instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >>socially acceptable. >> >>You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >>sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >>and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >>prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >>once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >>consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >>my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >>negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >>perpetuate the idea that we're different. >> >>The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >>established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >>or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >>people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >>you how complex this is. >> >>On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >>always right, giggle! >> >>Sincerely, >>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>Read my blog at: >>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >>, Message: 6 >>Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >>From: Marc Workman >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>Message-ID: >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >>Bridgit wrote, >>why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >>Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >>give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >>people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >>society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >>disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >> >>Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >>disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >>people not to look blind. >> >>why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >>people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >>people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >>intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >>have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >>path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >> >>Ashley wrote, >>I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >>it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >>Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >>makes us look worse. >> >>It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >>delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >>rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >>disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >>person. >> >>I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >>"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >>is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >>attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >>fighting against with respect to blindness. >> >>Bridgit wrote, >>Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >>appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >> >>What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >>decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >>this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >>appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >>when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >>talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >>to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >>people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >>the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >>about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? >> >>Ashley wrote, >>Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >>your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >> >>I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >>mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >>me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >>that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >>as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >>these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >>people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >>that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >>is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >>course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >>majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >>that is better for everyone. >> >>I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >>celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >>Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Marc >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 02:56:24 2011 From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com (frandi.galindo at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:56:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior In-Reply-To: <01F124AEDE6240E4A713FCC380DED3E8@OwnerPC> References: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC><7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net><7.0.1.0.2.20111126115630.049b4a80@earthlink.net> <01F124AEDE6240E4A713FCC380DED3E8@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <01EB90D3FBA04E2BBF9F86AA39E46FDC@OwnerPC> First of all, many, and I mean many of social behaviors are looked down upon. Yes, some more than others, and tsome of those that are looked down upon less should be looked down upon the same as those that are looked down upon a lot. Rocking is a big one that people should stop. It makes blind people, and I mean all blind people look like fools in the eyes of the sighted. If one person sees a blind person rocking, they will believe that the rest are the same. I have a friend who rocks a ton, it don't matter where the hell he is at. It could be a important meating, class, or just when he's just chillin. And when we would hang out I would sometimes feel embarrassed to be around him. Don't get me wrong, this dude is a good person. I could go on and on about people I know that exibit those odd behaviors that we know as blindisms, and about the blindisms and how the sighted would see other blind persons if one saw a blind person exhibit one. but that would just get me all fired up. We'll just leave it at that. Second of all, that song has nothing to do with the rocking blindism a blind person exhibits. It has to do with music. Look at the words and you will see it, or maby you won't. -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 9:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior That song does not refer to literal rocking. It is a use of slang that refers to the music and dancing that the robin does. So I do not believe it is justification for unacceptable behaviors. I say unacceptable because it makes people who exhibit that behavior look cognitively impaired. I don't like it any more than you do but it is the society we live in. Not only that but most sighted people do not see many blind people in their lives if any, so when they see one blind person they assume all blind people are that way weather that is positive or negative. It is annoying and ignorant for people to lump all blind people in to a standard perception, but it is how it go's. When a blind person makes themselves look bad in that way they make all blind people look bad. Similarly if a blind person acts with social graces then they make all blind people look good. Like I said it is silly to think this way and I don't like being lumped in a category but it is how society works and it is not going to change anytime soon. Yes we can work towards a more excepting society but it is a slow moving progression. Andi -----Original Message----- From: Robin Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 3:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior Good Day, Miss Ashley, I'm SORRY that you FEEL that way and I'm pretty much sure there are a number of others who feel the same way, but that doesn't make it RIGHT. I don't EXHIBIT the type of behavior of Rockin', but I'm sure I EXHIBIT some type of behavior that isn't SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE. Everyone EXHIBITS some type of odd behavior some are MORE PRONOUNCED than others. Why should some be looked down upon while others are not? What we NEED is MORE UNDERSTANDINGand ACCEPTANCE!!! And this IS 4 you. Rockin' Robin He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Every little swallow, every chick-a-dee Every little bird in the tall oak tree The wise old owl, the big black crow Flappin' their wings singing go bird go Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Yeah yeah Pretty little raven at the bird-band stand Told them how to do the bob and it was grand They started going steady and bless my soul He out-bopped the buzzard and the oriol He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Pretty little raven at the bird-band stand Told them how to do the bop and it was grand They started going steady and bless my soul He out-bopped the buzzard and the oriol He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight At 08:36 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: >If you want to exhibit odd behavior, you might change your mind when you >try and get a job. >I hope they discourage this behavior at NFB centers. When I read Jim >Omvig's book partially, one ingredient of training was to blend in and >appear >acceptable. And BTW, its not just about appearance. If you rock, I find it >harder to hear people as their voice keeps moving. >Also, if they fail to look at me, their voice sounds muffled as they look >down. Sorry to be blunt and sound imposing, but its reality. >If you don't agree, fine, but I suspect no one will want to hire someone >who does not act socially appropriate. > > >-----Original Message----- From: Robin >Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:04 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > >Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, > >STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon >those, who EXHIBIT mannerisms of the Blind >variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, >you like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP >with Ol"Sighty and do NOT expect others in "The >Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. >ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a >Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. > >At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >>Bridgit, >>Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. Like >>you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im cognitively or >>developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities are very different. >>Those with those disabilities function at a teen or child level; their >>body is grown, their mind is not. It is not their fault, it is the way >>they are built. And I just loved your anecdotes to back up your point. >> >>I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >>assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have been >>treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its definitely >>degrading and frustrating. I think we should change behaviors that we >>can; after all a sighted person growing up would be expected to >>extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be treated like >>everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. >> >>Ashley >> >>-----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> >>Marc, >> >>First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >> >>However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >>negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >>is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >>disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >>life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >>members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >>little about it. >> >>Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >>physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >>disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >>more difficult to navigate through situations. >> >>I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >>information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >>with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >>don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >>simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >>intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. >> >>While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >>test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >>understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >>my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >>was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >>few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >>understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >>doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >>assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >>information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >>of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >>not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >>30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >>ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >>misinformed notions? >> >>Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >>intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >>either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >>something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >>blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >>don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >>"worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >>barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >> >>Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >>parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >>general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >>with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >>and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >>does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >>functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >>capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >>isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >>people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >>prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >>of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >>with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >>you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >>even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >>yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >>your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >>people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >>reality, dude. >> >>A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >>early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >>since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >>aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >>award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >>thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >>care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >>sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >>to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. >> >>And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >>behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >>now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >>unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >>attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >>Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >>this issue. >> >>If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >>makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >>not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >>we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >>only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >>disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >>can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >> >>You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >>with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >>but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >> >>And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >>even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >>my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >>demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >>making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >>former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >>with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >>had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >>I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >>something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >>disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >>some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >> >>And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >>engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >>correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >>changing minds about our actual abilities. >> >>Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >>but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >>are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >>of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >>included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >>instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >>socially acceptable. >> >>You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >>sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >>and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >>prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >>once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >>consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >>my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >>negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >>perpetuate the idea that we're different. >> >>The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >>established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >>or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >>people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >>you how complex this is. >> >>On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >>always right, giggle! >> >>Sincerely, >>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>Read my blog at: >>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >>, Message: 6 >>Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >>From: Marc Workman >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>Message-ID: >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >>Bridgit wrote, >>why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >>Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >>give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >>people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >>society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >>disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >> >>Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >>disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >>people not to look blind. >> >>why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >>people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >>people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >>intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >>have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >>path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >> >>Ashley wrote, >>I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >>it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >>Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >>makes us look worse. >> >>It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >>delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >>rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >>disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >>person. >> >>I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >>"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >>is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >>attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >>fighting against with respect to blindness. >> >>Bridgit wrote, >>Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >>appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >> >>What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >>decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >>this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >>appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >>when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >>talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >>to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >>people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >>the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >>about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? >> >>Ashley wrote, >>Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >>your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >> >>I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >>mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >>me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >>that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >>as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >>these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >>people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >>that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >>is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >>course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >>majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >>that is better for everyone. >> >>I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >>celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >>Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Marc >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 27 03:11:37 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 22:11:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior In-Reply-To: <01EB90D3FBA04E2BBF9F86AA39E46FDC@OwnerPC> References: <1371C09D38B04865B2F1B99B5FBBEE1D@OwnerPC><7.0.1.0.2.20111125205446.04dab340@earthlink.net><7.0.1.0.2.20111126115630.049b4a80@earthlink.net><01F124AEDE6240E4A713FCC380DED3E8@OwnerPC> <01EB90D3FBA04E2BBF9F86AA39E46FDC@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <1E228BCC3AF645D18CF54B612245DCC6@OwnerPC> Yes, unfortunately if one person sees a blind person doing a behavior, they think all blind people do that. So I think its important not to do unacceptable mannerisms. That said, its hard to stop. Also I think we should balance the need to be ourselves and not stress too much over societal perceptions versus making an impression. It’s a balancing act that each of us undertakes in different ways. Other than stopping blindisms, not eating sloppily, and using my cane with care as to not hit too many people or hit them hard catching them by surprise, I don't do too much to be an ambassador for the public. I feel I should be myself; try and be polite; decline unwanted help nicely,, show respect, use nice manners, etc and let the image speak for itself. If people ask me about being legally blind, I'm okay with that, but I want to go about my day and be thought of for the person I am, not just a blind person. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 9:56 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior First of all, many, and I mean many of social behaviors are looked down upon. Yes, some more than others, and tsome of those that are looked down upon less should be looked down upon the same as those that are looked down upon a lot. Rocking is a big one that people should stop. It makes blind people, and I mean all blind people look like fools in the eyes of the sighted. If one person sees a blind person rocking, they will believe that the rest are the same. I have a friend who rocks a ton, it don't matter where the hell he is at. It could be a important meating, class, or just when he's just chillin. And when we would hang out I would sometimes feel embarrassed to be around him. Don't get me wrong, this dude is a good person. I could go on and on about people I know that exibit those odd behaviors that we know as blindisms, and about the blindisms and how the sighted would see other blind persons if one saw a blind person exhibit one. but that would just get me all fired up. We'll just leave it at that. Second of all, that song has nothing to do with the rocking blindism a blind person exhibits. It has to do with music. Look at the words and you will see it, or maby you won't. -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 9:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior That song does not refer to literal rocking. It is a use of slang that refers to the music and dancing that the robin does. So I do not believe it is justification for unacceptable behaviors. I say unacceptable because it makes people who exhibit that behavior look cognitively impaired. I don't like it any more than you do but it is the society we live in. Not only that but most sighted people do not see many blind people in their lives if any, so when they see one blind person they assume all blind people are that way weather that is positive or negative. It is annoying and ignorant for people to lump all blind people in to a standard perception, but it is how it go's. When a blind person makes themselves look bad in that way they make all blind people look bad. Similarly if a blind person acts with social graces then they make all blind people look good. Like I said it is silly to think this way and I don't like being lumped in a category but it is how society works and it is not going to change anytime soon. Yes we can work towards a more excepting society but it is a slow moving progression. Andi -----Original Message----- From: Robin Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 3:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Rockin' & ODD Behavior Good Day, Miss Ashley, I'm SORRY that you FEEL that way and I'm pretty much sure there are a number of others who feel the same way, but that doesn't make it RIGHT. I don't EXHIBIT the type of behavior of Rockin', but I'm sure I EXHIBIT some type of behavior that isn't SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE. Everyone EXHIBITS some type of odd behavior some are MORE PRONOUNCED than others. Why should some be looked down upon while others are not? What we NEED is MORE UNDERSTANDINGand ACCEPTANCE!!! And this IS 4 you. Rockin' Robin He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Every little swallow, every chick-a-dee Every little bird in the tall oak tree The wise old owl, the big black crow Flappin' their wings singing go bird go Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Yeah yeah Pretty little raven at the bird-band stand Told them how to do the bob and it was grand They started going steady and bless my soul He out-bopped the buzzard and the oriol He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight Pretty little raven at the bird-band stand Told them how to do the bop and it was grand They started going steady and bless my soul He out-bopped the buzzard and the oriol He rocks in the tree tops all day long Hoppin' and a-boppin' and singing his song All the little birdies on Jaybird Street Love to hear the robin go tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin, tweet tweet tweet Rockin' robin' tweet tweetly-tweet Blow rockin' robin 'Cause we're really gonna rock tonight At 08:36 AM 11/26/2011, you wrote: >If you want to exhibit odd behavior, you might change your mind when you >try and get a job. >I hope they discourage this behavior at NFB centers. When I read Jim >Omvig's book partially, one ingredient of training was to blend in and >appear >acceptable. And BTW, its not just about appearance. If you rock, I find it >harder to hear people as their voice keeps moving. >Also, if they fail to look at me, their voice sounds muffled as they look >down. Sorry to be blunt and sound imposing, but its reality. >If you don't agree, fine, but I suspect no one will want to hire someone >who does not act socially appropriate. > > >-----Original Message----- From: Robin >Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:04 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > >Good Evenin', Miss Ashley, > >STOP! IMPOSIN' your BELIEFS and/or CONCERNS upon >those, who EXHIBIT mannerisms of the Blind >variety. If you don't want Ol'Sighty to TREAT, >you like you are bein' treated LIKE. Bring it UP >with Ol"Sighty and do NOT expect others in "The >Community" to ACT the way you THINK they should. >ACCEPT their DIFFERENCES. We're NOT a >Homogeneous community. We are very DIVERSE.. > >At 08:33 PM 11/25/2011, you wrote: >>Bridgit, >>Nicely said, and some of these examples point out apples and oranges. Like >>you, I do not want to give people a reason to think Im cognitively or >>developmentally delayed when I'm not. The disabilities are very different. >>Those with those disabilities function at a teen or child level; their >>body is grown, their mind is not. It is not their fault, it is the way >>they are built. And I just loved your anecdotes to back up your point. >> >>I find it degrading when people talk over me to a sighted companion or >>assume I need extra help or something just because I'm blind. I have been >>treated like I'm not the college educated adult I am. Its definitely >>degrading and frustrating. I think we should change behaviors that we >>can; after all a sighted person growing up would be expected to >>extinguish these behaviors. So if we want to fit in and be treated like >>everyone else, then we should follow those same rules. >> >>Ashley >> >>-----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 8:12 PM >>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> >>Marc, >> >>First, touché! I concede you have a point in your salutation, smile! >> >>However, personally, I don't use the word retarded especially with >>negative connotations. And my point was not to say that one disability >>is worse, but each disability presents its own barriers. Developmental >>disabilities can offer obstacles making it difficult to maneuver through >>life without cognitive barriers. Again, I have quite a few family >>members with varying degrees of developmental disabilities so I know a >>little about it. >> >>Disabled or not, we all have our limitations, whether they be mental or >>physical. Where some struggle, others succeed. A developmental >>disability, however, adds another layer making ones comprehension level >>more difficult to navigate through situations. >> >>I've witnessed these family members of mine struggle to understand basic >>information that the average person with no cognitive problem understand >>with no effort. When we have physical and sensory disabilities only, we >>don't require most information, basic information, to be broken down and >>simplified. We're not talking about Steve Jobs or Stephen Hawkings >>intellect here, but the average intellectual capacity most of us have. >> >>While at a recent doctor visit, the nurse, who was suppose to explain a >>test procedure, asked if I wanted my companion to come in so I could >>understand what she was saying. I told her that I not only was there on >>my own, but that I would understand her explanation just fine, and she >>was so worried about this until I finally put my foot down and made a >>few things clear. I had no intellectual barrier keeping me from >>understanding the information provided to any patient. I later asked the >>doctor if that was a standard procedure and they told me no. This woman >>assumed without ever asking a question, that I couldn't comprehend >>information stated to all patients just because I was blind. Regardless >>of a developmental disability or lower comprehension level, disabled or >>not, I don't like when my mental capacity is questioned being a >>30-year-old college-educated woman with a family. If some people all >>ready think this, why give them more fuel to feed their grossly >>misinformed notions? >> >>Trust me, it's very frustrating to have people assume you can't >>intellectually understand something. We shouldn't automatically assume >>either that people with developmental disabilities can't comprehend >>something either; they certainly deserve the same respect we demand as >>blind people, but why be considered to have a developmental issue if you >>don't have one at all? This doesn't mean one disability is necessarily >>"worse" than another, but it does mean one disability can present unique >>barriers that are difficult to hurdle. >> >>Let's say you work to become a doctor or teacher or lawyer or even a >>parent but are blind, you don't want future employers or, people in >>general, to assume you have a developmental disability because yes, even >>with a mild developmental disability, you won't be a doctor or lawyer, >>and because of cognitive barriers, certain things just can't be done. It >>does depend of the severity of developmental problem, but even higher >>functioning developmentally disabled people won't have the intellectual >>capacity to do these things. . This is just a fact. Blindness, however, >>isn't necessarily holding us back in an intellectual way. Individual >>people may question our ability, but we have the capacity in which to >>prove how capable we are. Many blind people face discrimination because >>of their blindness. In my experience though, if you present yourself >>with confidence, look and act polished, people are more likely to give >>you an opportunity. If you don't appear put-together, exhibit mannerisms >>even considered inappropriate for sighted people and don't carry >>yourself with confidence and/or intelligence, it doesn't matter what >>your resume says, what recommendations refer you to the job/ situation, >>people will be more wary and unsure as to if you can do much. It's >>reality, dude. >> >>A cousin of mine with a developmental disability became pregnant in her >>early 20's. It was determined she shouldn't have custody of the child >>since she was unable to demonstrate her ability to care for herself. My >>aunt stepped in to help raise the baby, and it was decided to finally >>award joint custody between my cousin and her mom. I know we're all >>thinking about I am Sam, but I know my cousin, she really wasn't able to >>care for a child on her own. Marc, do you care to equate this to a mere >>sensory disability like blindness? The differences are clear, at least >>to those of us who are blind, and it's comparing apples to oranges. >> >>And trying to compare abusive attitudes once deemed legal, and sadly >>behavior still in abundance even though, at least in this country, is >>now illegal, is a bit of an apple and oranges issue too. Correcting >>unusual body movements that can be changed, is nothing similar to >>attitudes, and physical violence, that hurts, demeans and demoralizes. >>Trust me, you won't win this argument with me; that's all I will say on >>this issue. >> >>If a person truly is in danger of harming themselves, or others, it >>makes sense that someone should help or assist. Blindness, itself, is >>not, or should not, be a factor causing people to automatically assume >>we are a danger to ourselves and others. Across the board, people with >>only blindness should not be penalized at all. With developmental >>disabilities, it depends on the level and type of cognitive problem. You >>can't equate the two here because the barriers aren't the same. >> >>You can equate them when we discuss respect. Everyone should be treated >>with dignity and respect. This thread has nothing to do with respect, >>but how one handles the barriers of a disability. >> >>And I've yet to hear an answer from those arguing we should be accepted >>even when exhibiting behavior like rocking or eye poking, in response to >>my question, how can you keep saying this when it's behavior also >>demonstrated by sighted people as well, and it's corrected in them? Stop >>making it a blind vs. sight issue when it doesn't have to be. As a >>former sighted person, I get sick of hearing how it's us against those >>with sight. That all sighted people are horrible and out to get us. I >>had disabled friends when I was sighted, and I didn't make assumptions; >>I treated them the same as our non-disabled friends. If I found >>something they did odd or weird, I didn't assume it was because of their >>disability. If I was like this, I'm sure others are too. In fact, I know >>some sighted people who have a similar attitude. >> >>And you argue the world should change how they view blind people who >>engage in such behavior instead of the other way around, but why not >>correct and change behavior that isn't unusual, and work towards >>changing minds about our actual abilities. >> >>Not all (please keep the "Not all" in mind before jumping on my back) , >>but many blind people I know who exhibit some of these extreme behaviors >>are the ones who aren't independent and don't believe they are capable >>of much. Maybe we need to work on convincing the world, ourselves >>included, that we don't have limitations, which is the real problem, >>instead of concentrating efforts to accept physical movements not >>socially acceptable. >> >>You keep going on and on about how we shouldn't be shaped into what the >>sighted world wants to be or how sighted people need to accept us quirks >>and all, but does not language like this develop into a form of reverse >>prejudice? If we're simply people who, as it happens, can't see, why, >>once again I ask, do we keep playing the blind vs. sight card? I don't >>consider myself different from anyone else I know other than I can't use >>my eyes. This doesn't mean I don't work to end stereotypes and change >>negative attitudes, but I don't place distinctions that, though reverse, >>perpetuate the idea that we're different. >> >>The reality is that the world is a bitch. Disabled or not, humans >>established certain ideas from the beginning of time. Whether disabled >>or not, male or female, blonde or brunette, people judge, people assume, >>people have stupid ideas about life. Experience of the world will show >>you how complex this is. >> >>On that note, Thanksgiving was great, and speaking for Americans, we're >>always right, giggle! >> >>Sincerely, >>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>Read my blog at: >>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >>, Message: 6 >>Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:15:16 -0800 >>From: Marc Workman >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>Message-ID: >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >>Bridgit wrote, >>why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one? >>Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why >>give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind >>people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones >>society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental >>disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. >> >>Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually >>disabled person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled >>people not to look blind. >> >>why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one? Most >>people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually disabled >>people; why give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is >>intellectually disabled people, who are just intellectually disabled, >>have no barriers other than the ones society, and themselves, put in our >>path. People who are blind have an actual sight limitation. >> >>Ashley wrote, >>I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because >>it looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. >>Why have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It >>makes us look worse. >> >>It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively >>delayed/retarded. Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that >>rocking, you look blind. You're not blind; you're just cognitively >>disabled, and you don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind >>person. >> >>I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look >>"retarded", and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, >>is incredibly ironic considering that it expresses the same negative >>attitudes towards intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be >>fighting against with respect to blindness. >> >>Bridgit wrote, >>Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not >>appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. >> >>What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it >>decided? Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it >>this thing called society that decides? Does not what is considered >>appropriate change over time? So how does it change? There was a time >>when it was considered inappropriate for women and African Americans to >>talk back to white men. It seems obvious to me that what is considered >>to be appropriate changes over time and that this change occurs because >>people challenge attitudes. Is it not at least possible that some of >>the behaviours that we've been discussing are like some of the attitudes >>about women and minorities that have been challenged and changed? >> >>Ashley wrote, >>Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of >>your blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human. >> >>I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not >>mutually exclusive. It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers >>me. I am a blind person. It's the negative attitudes about blindness >>that bother me. Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, >>as weird, as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me. One way to deal with >>these attitudes is to train blind people to look and act like most >>people look and act. A second way is to educate people, to teach them >>that blindness may lead to looking and acting differently, but that this >>is not bad, ugly, weird, abnormal or wrong. The latter path is of >>course the harder one. It's much easier to change the minority than the >>majority. I believe, though, that the latter path leads to the world >>that is better for everyone. >> >>I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving. We in Canada >>celebrated it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you >>Americans, I hope you're enjoying the holiday. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Marc >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robinmel71%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 03:16:54 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:16:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Acceptance and judging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jedi, Hmmm... But aren't you now judging me and not accepting me for what I think? I may disagree with a person's views, but this doesn't stop me from engaging in a friendly relationship with them. And disagreeing isn't necessarily judging. On a philosophical level, I completely agree with you. I respect your passion and dedication to your point of view. I still disagree on some points, but I respect the fact that you at least have an opinion. Acceptance goes both ways, my friend. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 13 Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 22:49:25 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions Message-ID: ebe88a9e-94a3-4337-92b5-46e9b95bb61c at samobile.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format="flowed" Bridgit, As someone speaking on the side of acceptance, I don't feel that I'm making anything into a blind versus sighted thing. I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious: we're a minority group that is expected to conform to the majority. If we don't conform, we're considered worse off than if we do conform. If we do conform, we're considered to be somehow different from the worst members of the minority we represent. As part of that system, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to conform to the majority as well for the same reason: we don't want to be associated with the worst stereotype of our minority group. None of this is to say that members of the majority (the sighted in this case) are evil people. It just means that we blind are experiencing the same kinds of intercultural tensions faced by other minority groups, and, like other minorities have done, we're trying to navigate that tension by trying to do what the majority does so we won't be alienated quite so much. This doesn't make us bad people, it just means that we're trying to make the best of a frustrating situation. The serious down side to that is that we're potentially alienating members of our own group (and maybe even ourselves) by rigidly clinging to a set of arbitrary norms. This idea I have about acceptance is not about anything more or less than not adding more stress to our lives than is necessary. It's already bad enough that we're frustrated by our experiences with the sighted community (you included), so why do we need to add more frustrations to our lives by harshly judging and criticising ourselves? On a possibly related note, I think I'm beginning to understand why some blind people are frustrated with the Federation. I've heard a lot of blind people say that the Federation tends to be too judgmental of those who maybe aren't as skilled, confident, or as "acceptable" (in quotes) as we perceive ourselves to be. what I hear these people saying (now that i think about it) is this: I want to be accepted for who I am and where I'm at. For some of these people, perhaps they want to stay where they're at and so acceptance is extremely important to them. But as it is, I'm of a humanistic bent, so I believe that acceptance makes room for growth. If I truly accept you for who you are and am not in a hurry to change you in any way, you have full license to fully explore and be in your experience while in my company. from that place, you are more able to make autonomous decisions about whatever behaviors, thoughts, feelings, etc that you may want to change if at all. The bottom line is that it would be your choice, and I would accept you and your choice unconditionally. Humanist philosophy contends that human beings, if given the total choice, would probably choose to grow rather than stagnate; this tendency may be all that is needed to initiate positive growth for that person who initially didn't seem to want to change. I think that's what many of these blind people are looking for in the Federation. But perhaps, because we're having so much trouble accepting ourselves, we can't offer that to them. We're so hell-bent on being accepted by the majority, so how could we be available to another person? Now to clarify, I'm not suggesting that all Federationists are like this, but it seems to be a prevailing pattern in our Federation culture. On further reflection, I'm wondering if Dr. Jernigan didn't try to address this issue in some way by writing "The Nature of Independence." While I don't agree with dr. Jernigan's rigid definition of the three stages of independence, I do agree that a little acceptance of each of us is definitely at hand and would be a good idea. While he specifically covered blindness skills and independence, I'm extending the idea to so-called mannerisms. As is the case with blindness skills, it's a good idea to know how to be effective, but it's not useful to harshly judge and criticise people if they aren't yet effective or make the active choice to define effectiveness differently, especially if (in this case) the norms we're considering are arbitrary anyway. Is any of this making sense? Respectfully, Jedi From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 03:25:01 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:25:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Cheerleading and dance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, I know a girl who did cheerleading in high school and she's blind. She has RP and still has quite a bit of vision, and during high school, she did very little with alternative skills, but I read about a totally blind girl who was a high school cheerleader. I came across it while researching for a paper years ago. Based on my experience, I think it would be extremely easy to do cheerleading without vision. Obviously learning the cheers and chants wouldn't be a problem, and it wouldn't take much to learn the motions done at specific moments. And there are cheer moves you learn that are specific cheer moves, similar to dance, like a bucket fist means you ball your hand with the thumb side facing up. So once you learn these moves, you know based on the name what to do. College and professional cheering is more involved and takes a lot of physical stamina regardless of sight or not. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 13 Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:05:31 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cheerleading & dance Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Hi Bridgit, Your description of cheerleading sounds right. The high school team did more basic cheers and some dances where as college teams do more gymnist moves from what I've observed. You were not blind when cheerleading, right? I'd be curious to know if a blind person did that? You would have to have a willing coach to be hands on and a guide for running. It could be done though. And as you said, it?s a great thing for a college application Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 03:44:27 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:44:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Acting classes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, Well, specific to theatre classes, you will have lecture based classes even though its about theatre, and of course the performance based classes which focus on anything from voice to physical movement. Specific to what I meant is that my major my second time in college (creative writing) required us to take what is called oral interpretation of literature at my university which is a theatre class where we read pieces of lit. chosen by the instructor and then each student selected a portion to perform. Since it drew upon literature, my writing workshop required it as a means in which to make lit. come alive quite literally, allowing us to use this as a tool when writing. I also took another theatre class as an elective which was performance based. I was able to act and direct, which I enjoy, directing. I was director for a small theatre group for four years a while ago. When rehearsing with others, or during dress rehearsals, we didn't run words or specific lines over and over unless the directed felt we weren't using the proper connotation. This is more a thing an actor does when learning their lines privately. Though acting is suppose to sound natural and extemporaneous, an actor must know how to say each word, where to place emphasis and what characteristics/gestures to apply when speaking in a certain way, or with specific words. Once rehearsing as a cast, you may run lines over and over like this, but when it comes to specific words and phrases, this is usually done when alone, or upon a directors orders. I also enjoyed performing, and I am considering doing some local things now that school is done and I can focus my energies elsewhere. Good luck. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 15 Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:02:17 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking acting classes Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Hi Bridgit, I like your idea of becoming familiar with the set. Yeah you're right that stage sets are supposed to be set up the same way each time. So it?s a matter of memory then and familiarity. Now that I think of it, I did use my cane on stage a little in high school drama class while rehearsing. What do you mean by performance-based classes? How is that different than theatre class? Facial expressions are vital to acting; but this wasn't an issue for me. I think, and hope, I looked expressive as my voice was. We did body exercises to warm up, but I don't remember doing face exercises. Of course, I only took acting 1 though. You said "When running lines, you may say the same word, or phrase, over and over in order to capture the proper tone and inflection." I assume you did this in practice/rehearsals. This makes me interested in trying it. Maybe I should audition for a community play or my community college play. Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 03:57:26 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:57:26 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing classes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, Yes, my mom owns a dance studio. She always owned and taught dance when I was little, but for years she has not danced until recently. I haven't taken a dance class since losing my vision, but I like to dance still. I get quickly disorientated when spinning in circles too much, but at home, it's easy to figure direction. I still incorporate ballet bar exercises in my workout routine which help with toning and flexibility. I only took traditional forms of dance- ballet, jazz and tap. I was best at jazz and did everything from traditional to hip-hop. We would incorporate Latin moves like salsa or samba, but I've never taken specific Latin dance classes, and I've never tried ballroom dancing either. I hear ballroom is more difficult than it looks. When I lived in Des Moines, I knew a blind woman who taught ballroom dancing. Especially in ballet, most instructors will touch a student not standing in the right position or not holding a pose properly, so it stands to reason that it wouldn't be a big deal to have to help a blind person learn positions and movements by touching them. I'm not sure how it works with other dancing, but it seems like it makes sense to ask, and if a person refuses, it's their problem, not yours. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 18 Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:11:35 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking dance and acting classes Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Bridgit, So you took ballet, tap and jazz. Anything else? Were you the one that said your mom owned a dance studio? Did you find taking dance different after becoming blind? IF dance instructors were hands-on, that is good. I think many people learn well by touch-- the haptic/kinesthetic sense. But its not used enough in this visual culture. The dance instructor I encountered, when I comtemplated signing up for ballroom dance, said he explained the moves and demonstrated them. But he did not reference using hands-on learning by correcting participants by positioning them in the proper stances. But maybe I just didn't encounter the right instructor; who knows? Maybe I'll take some private lessons someday. That way I'd go at my own pace and it could be as hands on as I needed. Dance is so beautiful, particularly ballroom. The waltz looks/sounds neat as well. Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 04:06:20 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 22:06:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Modeling for natural expressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, No, I was younger when I took modeling and etiquette classes so I still had sight, but it really doesn't require vision in order to understand most things taught in these classes, at least not the ones I took. In etiquette school, we had a formal dinner, which was a graduation of sorts. We learned the "proper" way in which to eat, proper table settings (there is more than one) proper dinner conversation, etc. As for walking, a woman is taught to walk upright, shoulders back, head up and you brush your knees together, meaning as the other leg moves forward, the sides of the knee brush. You do talk about dress, but it's usually more general and not specific to individuals. What attire to wear to what occasion, and more to that nature. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 19 Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:21:09 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Modeling for learning natural expressions and movement Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi Bridgit, Wow, this is interesting. I did not know that modeling classes covered such a variety of topics; I guess I thought it was the make-up and clothes thing. Interviewing skills, how to speak and dining etiquette are great topics. I live near a big city so finding etiquette classes shouldn't be a problem. Although, I don't think modeling is my thing. Did you take those etiquette classes as a blind person? I don't know, but wouldn't they be taught via demonstration and looking at the teacher? If so, I suppose a willing, accomodating teacher could show you what she is teaching. I've looked at etiquette class descriptions. They cover dress, speaking manners, and formal dining etiquette procedures like placement of silverware. Did your etiquette class include a five course meal? What do you mean by teaching you how to move? I know that we're supposed to walk with a smooth gait and straight, meaning no slouched posture. But beyond that, I didn't know there was a formal way to walk. Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 04:35:03 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 22:35:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Acting and dancing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, Much of the dancing done in clubs, at least the actual dancing and not the simulated sex some consider dancing, is considered hip-hop, but there's an actual style of jazz dancing, which is hip-hop and is based on specific moves and dances. A background in traditional jazz can help, and many music video dancers have strong traditional dance backgrounds. The rumba, I believe, is a form of Latin dancing, but often used in ballroom dancing. The cha-cha is a ballroom dance. I'm not an authority of Latin or ballroom dancing. I only did traditional dancing though elements like Latin dances were incorporated into routines. I took to dancing quite naturally, and started when I was four since my mom was a dance teacher. I spent a lot of time in the studio dancing but also practiced at home. During lunch in high school, a group of us opted to eat in a room off the theatre rooms together, and a dancer friend and I would practice ballet exercises together. This was more for fun than practice though. The type of dancing done in clubs or at parties doesn't require practice and follows no real style or movement unless it is a type of line dancing, which still doesn't require much practice. It's more a matter of just learning the combinations. I took dance classes from a studio. Most cities and towns have dance instructors. I initially took from my mom and later from her cousin who used to be the president of the dance association in Omaha. I later took ballet classes with a local theatre group in Omaha, but I was 19 when I started there and stopped when I was 21. While in high school, cheerleaders and girls on the dance squad met only met 2 or 3 days a week, and the dance classes I took were usually on the weekends. I'd dance any where from 4 to six hours on a Saturday, doing an extra week night every now and then. I also did music and theatre in high school, but again, our practices weren't every night with the exception of plays. We'd rehearse every night until the weekend of a plays run then there would be a few weeks between the next play we did. I was in swing choir and chorale which we had to audition for, but were classes so a lot of practice time was done during the day during class. I usually did most my homework during study halls in high school, or would do one classes homework during another class, so I had very little to do at home unless it was a big paper or project. I also have always been a night owl so I'd stay up late no matter if it was to do homework, practice something or just read for leasure. I'd be up as late as midnight during the school year, which I still do even though I'm no where near as involved in extra-curricular activities, smile. Plus, I had the energy of a teenager! Now only in my early thirties, and I already am noticing the wane in my stores of energy! LOL Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 21 Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:32:09 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Taking acting and dancing to learn natural movement andexpression Message-ID: <5DE647B969864768BE93CACE419D4151 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Bridgit, If I make it to a national convention, it would be cool to see how you dance. Where do you dance performing this swing, hip-hop, and latin dancing? Do you go to formal parties or clubs? I think some night clubs have dance floors and that type of dance is more a hip-hop thing. I've heard from many people that those are easier to pick up. Ballet is one of the harder dance forms; takes more precision, control and balance. Even if you were sighted growing up, I don't know how you found time to learn and practice all these activities! It takes practice to get things right. But it sounds like you were a very well rounded child. I only took private piano lessons as a kid. I remember homework taking up so much time that I did not have much other free time. I was listening and reading books in braille and it took longer to study and do assignments. I could not skim for any answers in the text, nor can I now, but we don't have to answer questions after reading a chapter fortunately. Anyway, did you also learn salsa? Are the rumba and waltz latin dances? What is the cha cha considered? Thanks. From carlymih at earthlink.net Sun Nov 27 06:05:01 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 22:05:01 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Using the word retard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111126215627.01cbda38@earthlink.net> Hi, Bridgit, I often imagine people of so called minorities, being the ones who decide how it is that they would like to be referred. Too often, people ascribe these meaningless, labels to other groups. Like, who ever heard of someone who is "sight impaired?" I don't know about you but I am just BLIND. I am not possessing of a set of actual, eyeballs which could even be impaired. So To hell with all those terms whose function it seems to be, to put whichever speaker, at some kind of grater ease. : >Carly, > >I never said we should completely eliminate the word retard from the >vernacular; I just don't appreciate the use in which most people now say >the word. It is often said with negative conotations, and I've heard >people from all age groups apply the word retard to a person, or thing, >with the intent to demean. > >The word itself, yes, means simply slow. It's used in musical >composition, and it was originally used to describe people with slower >mental capacities, but it has taken on very negative tones, similar to >using the word "gay" as in homosexual, except it is often used in a >negative way and not to simply describe. > >Sincerely, >Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >Read my blog at: >http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > >"History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > >Message: 9 >Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 18:54:40 -0800 >From: Carly >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125171625.01cbae78 at earthlink.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed > >Hi, Marc, and Bridgit, > > If you notice, the word "retarded" >simply describes someone who is slower to >complete brain function.Furthermore, It doesn't >seem right by anyone's calculations to, >effectively and literally as Brigit suggests >avoid that particular word altogether, Wouldn't >Doing so be in some way singling those folks who >happened to process slower than is the norm, out? >If one is to get past the idea that, actual >intent in which something is termed, carries more >meaning than does meaningless, verbeage which, >itself doesn't really communicate anything baring >substance?I am brain damaged, so my processing >functions seem a little bit retarded sometimes >yet, I most certainly do not appreciate the >politically, correct construct they came up with, >that by effectively erasing the concept, of being >retarded, from the vernacular, so too will those >unsightlies, be effectively, erased? >in retardation, >Carly > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From kramc11 at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 06:08:38 2011 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 01:08:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Cheerleading and dance References: Message-ID: Ashley, When I was in middle school, I went to a school for the blind, they had and to the best of my knowledge still do have a cheer leading squad. However, this squad did not at least when I was a student do any dancing or acrobatics. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 10:25 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Cheerleading and dance > Ashley, > > I know a girl who did cheerleading in high school and she's blind. She > has RP and still has quite a bit of vision, and during high school, she > did very little with alternative skills, but I read about a totally > blind girl who was a high school cheerleader. I came across it while > researching for a paper years ago. > > Based on my experience, I think it would be extremely easy to do > cheerleading without vision. Obviously learning the cheers and chants > wouldn't be a problem, and it wouldn't take much to learn the motions > done at specific moments. And there are cheer moves you learn that are > specific cheer moves, similar to dance, like a bucket fist means you > ball your hand with the thumb side facing up. So once you learn these > moves, you know based on the name what to do. > > College and professional cheering is more involved and takes a lot of > physical stamina regardless of sight or not. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:05:31 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cheerleading & dance > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; > reply-type=original > > Hi Bridgit, > > Your description of cheerleading sounds right. The high school team did > more > basic cheers and some dances where as college teams do more gymnist > moves > from what I've observed. > > You were not blind when cheerleading, right? I'd be curious to know if a > > blind person did that? You would have to have a willing coach to be > hands on > and a guide for running. It could be done though. And as you said, it?s > a > great thing for a college application > > Ashley > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 09:25:35 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 04:25:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products In-Reply-To: References: <90FCF86FAF2E4766A6DB8ECFAFBFAE53@hometwxakonvzn> <143E464E5D66468CB862638BF1D7F566@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <-8150311884307917167@unknownmsgid> It does support rtf. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 26, 2011, at 1:12 PM, josh gregory wrote: > Ashley, iOS can in fact support word files, not sure about rtf but I > imagine it can. > > On 11/26/11, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Rj, >> If you really feel an Ipad fits your needs, its easy to justify. >> But most email attachments will be in Word or .rtf format. I do not know if >> apple products can read those. >> I open attachments from professors all the time. A Braille Note or PC can >> handle Word or .rtf attachments. >> >> Do you also have a windows pc or laptop? I do not think you should abandon >> your PC windows because the workplace uses them. Keep up those skills. Using >> the Microsoft office suite is critical in >> getting an office job if that is what you'll do. >> >> Are you in school? If so, justifying an Ipad is easy. Say its less expensive >> than a braille notetaker. Say you will use it for notetaking and whatever >> else you'll do. Say it will get you through school which in turn helps you >> in your VR goal. >> >> In my state, vr either purchases laptops, notetakers, or both; rarely have >> they purchased apple products. >> Let us know what you decide and if VR pays for it. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:08 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] ipad verses blindness products >> >> Guys, I have a braille 'n speak, but I think it has bit the dust. I was >> thinking of getting a braille note, but some one suggested getting an iPad, >> or a laptop. I did some research on the iPad, and here's what I've found. >> http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ipad/vision.html >> Do any of you use iPad's, and if so, who purchased it for you? If VR >> purchased it, How do you justify need for an Ipad? Sincerely, RJ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Sent via gmail.com > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > Skype: joshgregory93 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 22:58:09 2011 From: nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com (community service Outreach) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 16:58:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Community Service Conference call--Sunday, December 4 Message-ID: Hello, everyone! > > The Community Service Group will have our monthly conference call on Sunday, > December 4. We will be discussing "The Cost of a Gift," one of the NFB's > most important landmark speeches and how it ties in with Federation > philosophy and community service. The speech is attached to this email for those who would like to read it. > > Why is it important for us, as bind people, to serve our community? > > Why is service in general important? > > What do we hope to teach the sighted about blindness through community > service? > > How does this speech shape or influence our philosophies about service? > > If you are passionate about serving your community, and are looking to chat > with people who share similar thoughts and feelings about community service, > this call is for you! The call-in information is below: > > Where: (218) 339-3600 passcode 808277 > When: Sunday, December 4 at 5 PT > Topic: "The Cost of a Gift," and its impact on community service and > Federation philosophy > > Hope to see you there! > > Julie > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 06 THE COST OF A GIFT.doc Type: application/msword Size: 35328 bytes Desc: not available URL: From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 00:24:20 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:24:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof In-Reply-To: <4ed148ca.8ab7340a.11cb.fffff337@mx.google.com> References: <4ed148ca.8ab7340a.11cb.fffff337@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Vejas, As others have said, fear of dogs is a common issue especially among people who have been attacked in the past, blind or sighted. There are techniques for reducing your fear if it is disrupting your life, like if you are afraid to walk outside or go over to a friend's house who has a dog. For example, systematic desensitization is a process of gradually exposing you to the scary object while you are relaxed so that you can develop less of a fear response to it over time. A professional psychologist or counselor may be able to help you overcome your fear if it is causing you a lot of trouble. However, if you are not often in situations with dogs, you might prefer to just avoid them. Best, Arielle On 11/26/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Vejas, > > Wow, this is a very interesting question! I don't have a lot of > perspective on this, as I don't have such a fear, but here's one > thought. I don't think the fear of dogs isn't a blindness issue, > because all blind people don't have this fear. However, I > understand what you're saying. I've been outside plenty of times > and have heard a pretty ferocious-sounding dog barking near me. > But as long as I hear the dog running around in a certain little > area and isn't running toward me and growling and barking at me, > I know he's probably in a fence and can't jump it. I'll tell you > this: my family and I had a Rotweiller for a long time. She was > a big dog, and a lot of our friends and neighbors were afriad of > her. But she had a very sweet disposition, and was very nice to > everyone. But at the same time, we liked having her around > because we knew that if anyone tried to break into our house or > something, she would protect us. But she had a very sweet > temper, and so have all other Rotties I've met. All that makes a > lot of people afraid of rotties is their size and their bark, but > once you get to know them, they're great! Just throwing out some > thoughts. > > Chris > > "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The > real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that > exists. If a blind person has the proper training and > opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical > nuisance." > -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, > 1968-1986 > > The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth > in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing > assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions > which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more > information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit > us online at www.icanfoundation.info! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: vejas To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 09:49:12 -0800 > Subject: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof > > Hi All, > I don't know if any of you other blind people have this, but I > have a considerable fear of dogs. Someone suggested it was > because we couldn't see them, so we don't know how aggressive > they are. > In first grade I got jumped by a dog, which scared me, but it's > gotten worse because I have constantly had bad dreams where I am > near a really aggressive dog such as a pit bull, and it's really > scary. > I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying this, but if certain > breeds didn't exist, such as Doberman, Pitbull, Rotweiller and > Chao, blind people could walk more confidently down the streets > without having to worry about an attack. > What are your thoughts about this issue? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 00:28:18 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:28:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof In-Reply-To: References: <4ed148ca.8ab7340a.11cb.fffff337@mx.google.com> Message-ID: PS-I grew up with a very sweet pet dog and so I like dogs overall, but I do get a little freaked out if I hear a strange dog barking very loud, growling or jumping near me. If I feel nervous about being jumped on, I will hold my cane between myself and the dog, at least until the dog has settled down. It's also important to remember that most dogs will be fenced in so they will make noise but not actually pose a threat. Of course there is always a risk of getting jumped or bitten, but lots of things, like riding in cars, are more risky than that. Best, Arielle On 11/27/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Vejas, > As others have said, fear of dogs is a common issue especially among > people who have been attacked in the past, blind or sighted. There are > techniques for reducing your fear if it is disrupting your life, like > if you are afraid to walk outside or go over to a friend's house who > has a dog. For example, systematic desensitization is a process of > gradually exposing you to the scary object while you are relaxed so > that you can develop less of a fear response to it over time. A > professional psychologist or counselor may be able to help you > overcome your fear if it is causing you a lot of trouble. However, if > you are not often in situations with dogs, you might prefer to just > avoid them. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/26/11, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> Hi Vejas, >> >> Wow, this is a very interesting question! I don't have a lot of >> perspective on this, as I don't have such a fear, but here's one >> thought. I don't think the fear of dogs isn't a blindness issue, >> because all blind people don't have this fear. However, I >> understand what you're saying. I've been outside plenty of times >> and have heard a pretty ferocious-sounding dog barking near me. >> But as long as I hear the dog running around in a certain little >> area and isn't running toward me and growling and barking at me, >> I know he's probably in a fence and can't jump it. I'll tell you >> this: my family and I had a Rotweiller for a long time. She was >> a big dog, and a lot of our friends and neighbors were afriad of >> her. But she had a very sweet disposition, and was very nice to >> everyone. But at the same time, we liked having her around >> because we knew that if anyone tried to break into our house or >> something, she would protect us. But she had a very sweet >> temper, and so have all other Rotties I've met. All that makes a >> lot of people afraid of rotties is their size and their bark, but >> once you get to know them, they're great! Just throwing out some >> thoughts. >> >> Chris >> >> "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The >> real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that >> exists. If a blind person has the proper training and >> opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical >> nuisance." >> -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, >> 1968-1986 >> >> The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth >> in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing >> assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions >> which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more >> information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit >> us online at www.icanfoundation.info! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: vejas > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Date sent: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 09:49:12 -0800 >> Subject: [nabs-l] fear of dogs withcanapohbiaof >> >> Hi All, >> I don't know if any of you other blind people have this, but I >> have a considerable fear of dogs. Someone suggested it was >> because we couldn't see them, so we don't know how aggressive >> they are. >> In first grade I got jumped by a dog, which scared me, but it's >> gotten worse because I have constantly had bad dreams where I am >> near a really aggressive dog such as a pit bull, and it's really >> scary. >> I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying this, but if certain >> breeds didn't exist, such as Doberman, Pitbull, Rotweiller and >> Chao, blind people could walk more confidently down the streets >> without having to worry about an attack. >> What are your thoughts about this issue? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > From nimerjaber1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 14:18:19 2011 From: nimerjaber1 at gmail.com (Nimer Jaber) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 08:18:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED3982B.7050101@gmail.com> I'm really behind on emails, and Bridgit, thank you so much for this clear post that outlines my feelings so nicely on this point. Excellent post!! Nimer J On 11/23/2011 7:59 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Jedi, > > I never said blind people who don't exhibit blindisms aren't > discriminated against and still considered odd. My point is that certain > blindisms don't help the situation. Blindness itself is an issue that > the world still doesn't understand, and in my opinion, the > misunderstanding is in part due to blind people ourselves. > > I can't change the minds of every single person who sees and observes > me. This would be an impossible feat for anyone, disabled or not. I have > to live my life, and be as independent as I have the potential for, and > hopefully my actions will speak volumes. Many people will observe this > in us, but there will always be those who can't see past the blindness > no matter what we say or do. > > Having said all that, in my experience, people who get to know me > usually end up realizing blindness isn't that big of a deal. And I'm not > just speaking about close friends and family. I've had instructors, > classmates and colleagues say that they now realize blindness, while not > something you wish for, isn't the end of the world; and that learning to > be independent and efficient without sight doesn't take superhuman > abilities. > > We have a lot of work and much to do, but if we all would take certain > ideas to heart, perhaps we would see more change in the world in terms > of attitudes towards blindness. It may be insensitive, and it may be > wrong, but since the beginning of time humans have judged based on > appearance; some are more shallow than others. I get what you're saying, > but try putting that theory into practice. It's not about acting sighted > or conforming to a dominant standard, which in this case is sight; as > previously argued, most behaviors like rocking, poking eyes and making > inappropriate facial expressions isn't specific to blindness. It should > be curbed no matter if a person has a disability or not. If the behavior > is not one that can be controlled such as symptoms of Parkinson's or CP, > that's one thing, but if it's behavior, either learned or developed > another way, I think we should consider correcting it. > > Sorry, but I've been sighted, and to be honest, if I came across a > person exhibiting some of the behavior I've seen in blind people, I'd > wonder what the hell was wrong with them. Without the knowledge about > blindness, what frame of reference do I have? I would wonder the same > about a sighted person exhibiting the same behavior. > > I'm exaggerating my point here to display how many people think. I have > family members and friends with various disabilities including deafness > and developmental disabilities. Long before losing my sight, I > understood a lot about disability, and I think this is what, in part, > helped me accept blindness so quickly, and embrace the concept of > complete independence for the blind. Most people, though, aren't armed > with this knowledge, and all they see is a person exhibiting odd, at > times anti-social, behavior. > > This is an extreme, but you argue that we should be accepted despite any > behavior exhibited that's out of the norm. Any so called blindisms > should just be considered normal for that person. While researching a > few years ago for a paper, I came across a study. A blind student in > Florida was masturbating during class. No one had ever explained to him > that just because he couldn't see what others were doing didn't mean > they couldn't see him. His teacher was blind too, and after testing him, > the student didn't have other disabilities. This was natural for him > (yeah, yeah, input joke) and with some lines of logic, he should be left > alone; why does he have to conform? You will say that this is socially > unacceptable, and it makes others uneasy. So does severe rocking and eye > poking. On a philosophical level, what's the difference? I'm not trying > to equate masturbating to rocking, but based on certain arguments here, > this student should be allowed to express himself in the manner he sees > as best. He's not hurting anyone; but he's causing discomfort to others. > So is the person exhibiting other socially unacceptable behavior. > > I'm not condoning this type of behavior, by any means, but to make a > point, I use this study to see how is it really different, in context to > this discussion, than other socially unacceptable behaviors that we are > suppose to just be content with. > > And you say it's not worth all the stress to fit into a sighted world. > What does this mean? Does not integration imply we become a part of the > social norms? We can't really argue for integration if we simultaneously > argue to have socially unacceptable behaviors be considered normal and > acceptable. You can't really have your cake and eat it to on this > matter. And statements like this also place a divide between us and > sighted people; we become a different type of human, which I thought is > exactly what the Federation is fighting against. We're suppose to be > just like our sighted peers except we may use different tools and > methods in order to accomplish things. But if we resist any type of > integration, we go against the grain of this goal. > > And what about people like me? I use to be sighted, so what world do I > fit into? Or those of you with useable vision, where do you fit in? > Equal means no dividing line, no "us vs. them" mentalities. > > So how is it fitting into a "sighted world" when, one, we're suppose to > be equals, and two, it's behavior found in sighted and blind alike. You > can't really argue it's fitting into sighty's idea of normal when we've > already established it's not behavior necessarily specific to blindness. > > People should be accepted for themselves, and negative attitudes towards > disability must change, but certain behavior, whether displayed in > someone with a disability or not, should probably be corrected if not a > part of a social norm. We're not speaking about clothing or fashion or > trends, we're not even talking about diseases like Parkinson's or CP, > we're addressing behavior picked up one way or another, that can be > corrected and controlled, that just isn't accepted by society. It's not > about fitting into a "sighted world," but it's about fitting into the > world, period. I'm sick of all this sighted vs. blindness. If we're > humans who, as it happens can't use their eyes, why do we constantly > argue the sight vs. blind point? Yes, we still have a long way to go > with changing attitudes and mindsets, but insisting there's a huge > canyon between us doesn't help the situation. Perhaps the canyon is > there, and is still vast, because we keep placing distinctions between > blind and sighted people. Don't whine about equality if you don't think > we're the same. Using different tools and methods doesn't make us > different; it's no different than speaking a different language; we're > still humans. Stop labeling us as different in our language. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 20:48:12 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions > Message-ID: 56d7f4fb-c166-4a1c-9216-1596de0858ce at samobile.net > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > Bridgit, > > I would submit that it really doesn't matter whether or not a person > has mannerisms. The fact is that we're still discriminated against, > still treated as non-beings by sighted people, have our lives pried > into by sighted people, have people compliment us for being "normal," > and experience several other demeaning things that we've all talked > about here. Sure, a kid who doesn't rock may have more friends, but > those friends often think we're superhuman or somehow amazing because > we're so-called "normal." Therefore, I conclude that the only thing we > really get out of worrying so much about body language and the like is > added stress from our own self-judgment and the judgment of others in > the blindness field. > > It seems to me that we need a different attitude toward these so-called > blindisms. I personally think they could be used as a source of > information. They might signal a need for movement. Maybe they signal > boredom or excitement. whatever it is, they might serve us by alerting > us to mind states we are not really aware of. I think this is also the > case for unconscious self-adapters used by the sighted like twittling > the thumbs or shaking the leg. I've heard some people suggest that > people press their eyes because it provides pain relief or because it > produces inner images that are pretty to look at like stars and such. I > see nothing wrong with that. But if the person in question doesn't wish > to do this in public for whatever reason, they can always have their > cake and eat it too by simply doing the behavior in private. > > And about this body language thing we've been hashing out. I'm > personally horrified and saddened by the idea that we should strive to > immulate the sighted. There is something to be said for adopting > culturally appropriate behaviors for the context you are in, but the > added stress of trying to please others with these behaviors may not be > worth it. I'd much rather learn about a new behavior and keep it on the > back burner for when I think I might need it, but focus on > communicating in the best way i know how. Our multicultural world has > the benefit of greater acceptance than it used to. For instance, I've > never heard a Japanese person say nasty things about an American who > didn't bow upon leaving a shop. While some may think "That American's > rude," others might realize that Americans don't usually bow as a > matter of course. In application to a blind person, one might notice > that we may prefer to turn an ear to them rather than our eyes from > time to time, but they may also have the sense to realize that turning > an ear may be one of the many effective methods we have adapted for our > use in communication. Yes, we should know how to turn our eyes to them, > but we shouldn't stress out over it and proclaim social gloom and doom > for those who don't regularly adopt the behavior. > > Am I making any sense here? The bottom line for me is this. I think > that all people could learn to communicate better with each other and > that blind people certainly have no monopoly on lack of social skills. > I don't think it's worth the stress to try to fit in the with the > sighted. I'd rather just communicate in the best way that seems right > for the moment; this strategy usually works out for me. And i suspect > it works out for most of us given that the more important forms of body > language seem to come naturally to us regardless of however we picked > them up. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 17:52:27 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:52:27 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Using the word retard In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111126215627.01cbda38@earthlink.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111126215627.01cbda38@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Carly wrote, I often imagine people of so called minorities, being the ones who decide how it is that they would like to be referred. This, I think, is meant to imply that people who have traditionally been labelled "retarded" prefer to be referred to in this way. I'm really not sure this is true. If there is evidence of this, I'd be interested. I do know that there were some pretty widespread protests against the use of the word "retarded" in the movie Tropic Thunder. A quick Google search will provide a lot of news coverage on this. My understanding is that, though not everyone agreed with the criticisms, there was a pretty broad-based coalition of groups representing intellectually disabled people that came together to protest the film. I'm all for reclaiming words, and I much prefer blind and disabled to terms like sight impaired and differently-abled. But some labels are outdated and based on very negative attitudes and need to be retired. I'm not handicapped, I'm not crippled, I'm not a person with special needs, the last of these being the one I dislike the most. It's one thing for gay people to reclaim the label "queer", but that doesn't mean that, if one person is fine with being called a "fag", this is suddenly an acceptable word, and we shouldn't discourage it's use. So what I'm wondering is if the label "retard" is like the word "queer" or "blind", if there is an actual effort to reclaim it and change what it means, or if it's closer to the word "fag" in my example above, a word that perhaps you and a few others are happy to identify with, but one that the vast majority of people who are sattled with that label reject. The evidence I have points to the latter, but I'm prepared to revise my opinion based on new evidence. In either case, Bridgit's right to point out that most of the time that "retarded" is used, e.g., that movie was retarded, my computer is being retarded, the word is not meant to refer to slowed down or unusual cognitive capacities. I would hope that, at the very least, we can agree that kids calling each other, along with everything else under the sun, retarded is inappropriate and should be discouraged. Regards, Marc On 2011-11-26, at 10:05 PM, Carly wrote: > > > Hi, Bridgit, > > I often imagine people of so called minorities, being the ones who decide how it is that they would like to be referred. Too often, people ascribe these meaningless, labels to other groups. Like, who ever heard of someone who is "sight impaired?" > > I don't know about you but I am just BLIND. I am not possessing of a set of actual, eyeballs which could even be impaired. So To hell with all those terms whose function it seems to be, to put whichever speaker, at some kind of grater ease. : >> Carly, >> >> I never said we should completely eliminate the word retard from the >> vernacular; I just don't appreciate the use in which most people now say >> the word. It is often said with negative conotations, and I've heard >> people from all age groups apply the word retard to a person, or thing, >> with the intent to demean. >> >> The word itself, yes, means simply slow. It's used in musical >> composition, and it was originally used to describe people with slower >> mental capacities, but it has taken on very negative tones, similar to >> using the word "gay" as in homosexual, except it is often used in a >> negative way and not to simply describe. >> >> Sincerely, >> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >> Read my blog at: >> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >> >> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 18:54:40 -0800 >> From: Carly >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125171625.01cbae78 at earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed >> >> Hi, Marc, and Bridgit, >> >> If you notice, the word "retarded" >> simply describes someone who is slower to >> complete brain function.Furthermore, It doesn't >> seem right by anyone's calculations to, >> effectively and literally as Brigit suggests >> avoid that particular word altogether, Wouldn't >> Doing so be in some way singling those folks who >> happened to process slower than is the norm, out? >> If one is to get past the idea that, actual >> intent in which something is termed, carries more >> meaning than does meaningless, verbeage which, >> itself doesn't really communicate anything baring >> substance?I am brain damaged, so my processing >> functions seem a little bit retarded sometimes >> yet, I most certainly do not appreciate the >> politically, correct construct they came up with, >> that by effectively erasing the concept, of being >> retarded, from the vernacular, so too will those >> unsightlies, be effectively, erased? >> in retardation, >> Carly >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From tannis at afb.net Mon Nov 28 20:11:13 2011 From: tannis at afb.net (Tara) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 20:11:13 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 61, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28DEBD505C185140A61A985DCBAB086ACA1BFE@CH1PRD0402MB102.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> I'll add a little more about the appearance thing. I firsst want to let everyone know that I don't judge people by how they look, and definitely believe people have the right to choose how they look. I just feel that blind people need to have honest input about physical appearance. After this input, they an choose to change their behavior or stay the same. Like I said earlier, we are conditioned socially not to say bad things about people, and in most cases this is correct. Yet, blind people do not have all the information, so have to use sighted assistance, just as deaf people have to have hearing people tell them about sound. I am not saying blind people are dependent on sighted, or that we are less important. Once blind people have this info, they can make independent judgements. Personally,, I want constructive criticism, even if it hurts my feelings. If the person is giving me this feedback to help me improve, then I will not take offense. I have witnessed sighted telling blind that "no one can tell they are different", and this makes me angry because it is a lie. I know they make the comments out of kindness, but they do not realize that this is keeping vital information from the blind person. I feel blind people should have the right to know how sight works and about body language. For example, I have had blind people lean towards me, pointing their ear at me to eavesdrop. They do not realize I can see they are spying on me, and they are not being sneaky. I have seen blind guide dog owners not pick up after their dog and run away from the scene, but they do not realize that sighted people have seen them, since they can be watched at far distances. I have seen blind people pick a wedgie and do not realize that sighted can see them from around the corner due to the angle at which they are standing. In these situations, the sighted observer will glance at another sighted person and smile, basically thinking the situation is "cute", but will not correct the problem out of fear of being mean. Yet, this causes the blind person to make these same mistakes over and over again. I think this is worse when it happens with the rehab profession, since it is their job to help us. I would like to see rehab offer a class where you could be analyzed 1-on-1 to see how you appear. The person would describe how the public reacts to you, compares your style of dress to others, talks about your body language, etc. Once you finished this class, you could chosse to change or stay the same, but you would have more "pieces of the puzzle" to help you make the best decision. This class would have to only be open to mature people, since it would be a very blunt way of talking about life. Everyone changes their appearance to fit the norm and please people to some extent. For example, all people wear clothes in public, women usually shave their underarms, people clean and brush their hair, brush their teeth. Usually people dress up for a job interview, at prom, or for their wedding. Basically, I'm saying appearance is important. It's fun to experiment with different looks to see how the public reacts. What we need to find out is how important on teh social acceptability scale different body language is. Will rocking back and forth upset 5 people or 2500 people? Will masturbating in class upset 1 person or 1 million people? Will these behaviors cause one to lose possible friendships, romantic relationships, or employment opportunities? Some are universally negative, like the masturbation in class. Yet, where do others fit in? Does having disfigured eyes cause a lot of negative reactions? How about having a stiff posture and strange walk? There are ways to objectively test these. Have a control group, people not exhibiting these behaviors go in public and record with a hidden camera. Then, have the same people go in public and exhibit the test actions and record with a hidden camera. Then, watch both recordings and compare/contrast. From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 20:16:59 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:16:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] In-Reply-To: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com> References: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com> Message-ID: Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? Arielle ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Linda Coccovizzo Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:07:03 -0600 Subject: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] To: John , bviparents at yahoogroups.com, Missouri Chat , "Adaptive technology information and support." , LCA at yahoogroups.com Wow. Now wouldn't this be cool? This article, however, does not reflect my opinion on the work the NFB has done on the the car. I think that's pretty exciting as well. Linda C. A Cane For The Blind Improves Social Interactions, Sunday Strolls > Photo courtesy of: The Dyson Awards > As scientists make slow and steady progress on sensors to help the >blind see and move, this cane helps them say hi to friends. > While the National Federation for the Blind is pushing to build an >auto interface that lets visually impaired people drive safely and autonomously design student Selene Chew has a more modest >technological breakthrough to help the 285 million people who are >blind or partially blind The BlSpot cane, a clever and empathetic >technological attempt to create new opportunities for social >interaction for the visually impaired by harnessing GPS technology and non-visual interface design. > "I took the approach to serve their emotional needs more than just >their physical needs," she says. So, for her design program at the >National University of Singapore, she built a prototype white cane >that doubles as a GPS-enabled smartphone with a tactile and audio >interface that lets a blind user walk more confidently while >navigating social settings a little more easily than usual. > "Their social life is dependent on the people around them. They >cannot say hi to a friend without the friend saying hi first," Chew >explains. A blind person could be standing right next to a friend at >a bus stop and not know it. The BlSpot cane will alert the blind >friend that someone they know is nearby, and direct them to initiate a >hello. That's an empowering new ability. It's not a pressing health >issue that a blind person won't ever see a classmate across the quad >and be able to go up to them to ask about sharing notes, or that a >blind child wouldn't know his mother arrived at school to pick him up >until she comes over to tap him on the shoulder. But each step toward >fuller autonomy is an important one for the sensory impaired. > The friend-finding feature works because the cane contains a >specially designed phone that slots into the handle and connects to a >Bluetooth earpiece with an audio interface. A trackball on the handle >controls the menu and points which way to go. > When a friend checks in on Foursquare (or any other location-sharing >service), the cane alerts the blind user with an audio message, saying >how far away the person is, down to how many steps it will take to reach them. > The cane offers the option to ignore, call the friend, or, most >impressively, go find them, an option blind people don't usually get to >experience. > "The tactile navigator is a directional pointer that translates GPS >map directions into an 'arrowb that points towards the way to go," Chew says. > In addition to the phone features, the BlSpot cane also does a better >job at its primary function, preventing a blind person from walking >into things. > An ultrasonic sensor detects obstacles a normal cane would not, like >hanging objects, rails, or other protruding structures that the >ground-level sweep of a cane might miss. The product demonstration >video portrays the everyday danger of a broom handle slanting out of a >garbage can, for instance. A standard cane would sweep under the >broom without detecting it, leaving the handle dangerously aimed right >at the blind walkerbs head. The BlSpot cane senses it and beeps a >warning call in the Bluetooth earpiece. > And like other minimalist white gadgets with just one button these >days, the BlSpotbs design elegance makes it easier to handle at home. >The electronic components detach from the cane to charge, cable-free, >on an inductive charging dock. And when the phone component is not >inserted, it acts just like a regular cell phone, so you can still >accept calls without the Bluetooth headset, controlling the menu with >the tactile track ball on the back. > Chew is currently looking to find a partner to bring this design to >market on an industrial level. She was recently recognized with second >prize in the James Dyson Awards. > Copyright 2011 Mansueto Ventures, LLC. From davidb521 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 20:33:21 2011 From: davidb521 at gmail.com (David Bouchard) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:33:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com> Message-ID: <00c701ccae0c$f8bd2e10$ea378a30$@gmail.com> It sounds very expensive and bulky. It's a nifty idea, but a little impractical. Perhaps a separate device would be in order, something that is not a cane. I still prefer the NFB cane due to its lightness and receptivity. This cane would take that away because of its weight and probably its material composition. David -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 2:17 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? Arielle ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Linda Coccovizzo Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:07:03 -0600 Subject: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] To: John , bviparents at yahoogroups.com, Missouri Chat , "Adaptive technology information and support." , LCA at yahoogroups.com Wow. Now wouldn't this be cool? This article, however, does not reflect my opinion on the work the NFB has done on the the car. I think that's pretty exciting as well. Linda C. A Cane For The Blind Improves Social Interactions, Sunday Strolls > Photo courtesy of: The Dyson Awards > As scientists make slow and steady progress on sensors to help the >blind see and move, this cane helps them say hi to friends. > While the National Federation for the Blind is pushing to build an >auto interface that lets visually impaired people drive safely and autonomously design student Selene Chew has a more modest >technological breakthrough to help the 285 million people who are >blind or partially blind The BlSpot cane, a clever and empathetic >technological attempt to create new opportunities for social >interaction for the visually impaired by harnessing GPS technology and non-visual interface design. > "I took the approach to serve their emotional needs more than just >their physical needs," she says. So, for her design program at the >National University of Singapore, she built a prototype white cane >that doubles as a GPS-enabled smartphone with a tactile and audio >interface that lets a blind user walk more confidently while >navigating social settings a little more easily than usual. > "Their social life is dependent on the people around them. They >cannot say hi to a friend without the friend saying hi first," Chew >explains. A blind person could be standing right next to a friend at >a bus stop and not know it. The BlSpot cane will alert the blind >friend that someone they know is nearby, and direct them to initiate a >hello. That's an empowering new ability. It's not a pressing health >issue that a blind person won't ever see a classmate across the quad >and be able to go up to them to ask about sharing notes, or that a >blind child wouldn't know his mother arrived at school to pick him up >until she comes over to tap him on the shoulder. But each step toward >fuller autonomy is an important one for the sensory impaired. > The friend-finding feature works because the cane contains a >specially designed phone that slots into the handle and connects to a >Bluetooth earpiece with an audio interface. A trackball on the handle >controls the menu and points which way to go. > When a friend checks in on Foursquare (or any other location-sharing >service), the cane alerts the blind user with an audio message, saying >how far away the person is, down to how many steps it will take to reach them. > The cane offers the option to ignore, call the friend, or, most >impressively, go find them, an option blind people don't usually get to >experience. > "The tactile navigator is a directional pointer that translates GPS >map directions into an 'arrowb that points towards the way to go," Chew says. > In addition to the phone features, the BlSpot cane also does a better >job at its primary function, preventing a blind person from walking >into things. > An ultrasonic sensor detects obstacles a normal cane would not, like >hanging objects, rails, or other protruding structures that the >ground-level sweep of a cane might miss. The product demonstration >video portrays the everyday danger of a broom handle slanting out of a >garbage can, for instance. A standard cane would sweep under the >broom without detecting it, leaving the handle dangerously aimed right >at the blind walkerbs head. The BlSpot cane senses it and beeps a >warning call in the Bluetooth earpiece. > And like other minimalist white gadgets with just one button these >days, the BlSpotbs design elegance makes it easier to handle at home. >The electronic components detach from the cane to charge, cable-free, >on an inductive charging dock. And when the phone component is not >inserted, it acts just like a regular cell phone, so you can still >accept calls without the Bluetooth headset, controlling the menu with >the tactile track ball on the back. > Chew is currently looking to find a partner to bring this design to >market on an industrial level. She was recently recognized with second >prize in the James Dyson Awards. > Copyright 2011 Mansueto Ventures, LLC. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 20:44:38 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:44:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] In-Reply-To: <00c701ccae0c$f8bd2e10$ea378a30$@gmail.com> References: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com> <00c701ccae0c$f8bd2e10$ea378a30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sounds pretty interesting, but also a little strange. A cane to help us find our friends? I feel like that makes us too dependent on technology. What's wrong with just striking up a conversation with someone? Anyway, I'd probably try it out, just to say I'd done it. But give me a folding cane any day. Much easier to handle on a college campus. Patrick On 11/28/11, David Bouchard wrote: > It sounds very expensive and bulky. It's a nifty idea, but a little > impractical. Perhaps a separate device would be in order, something that is > not a cane. I still prefer the NFB cane due to its lightness and > receptivity. This cane would take that away because of its weight and > probably its material composition. > David > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Arielle Silverman > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 2:17 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social > interactions] > > Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? > Arielle > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Linda Coccovizzo > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:07:03 -0600 > Subject: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] > To: John , bviparents at yahoogroups.com, > Missouri Chat , "Adaptive technology information and > support." , LCA at yahoogroups.com > > Wow. Now wouldn't this be cool? This article, however, does not > reflect my opinion on the work the NFB has done on the the car. I think > that's pretty exciting as well. > > Linda C. > > A Cane For The Blind Improves Social Interactions, Sunday Strolls > >> Photo courtesy of: The Dyson Awards > >> As scientists make slow and steady progress on sensors to help the > >>blind see and move, this cane helps them say hi to friends. > >> While the National Federation for the Blind is pushing to build an > >>auto interface that lets visually impaired people drive safely and > > autonomously design student Selene Chew has a more modest > >>technological breakthrough to help the 285 million people who are > >>blind or partially blind The BlSpot cane, a clever and empathetic > >>technological attempt to create new opportunities for social > >>interaction for the visually impaired by harnessing GPS technology and > non-visual interface design. > >> "I took the approach to serve their emotional needs more than just > >>their physical needs," she says. So, for her design program at the > >>National University of Singapore, she built a prototype white cane > >>that doubles as a GPS-enabled smartphone with a tactile and audio > >>interface that lets a blind user walk more confidently while > >>navigating social settings a little more easily than usual. > >> "Their social life is dependent on the people around them. They > >>cannot say hi to a friend without the friend saying hi first," Chew > >>explains. A blind person could be standing right next to a friend at > >>a bus stop and not know it. The BlSpot cane will alert the blind > >>friend that someone they know is nearby, and direct them to initiate a > >>hello. That's an empowering new ability. It's not a pressing health > >>issue that a blind person won't ever see a classmate across the quad > >>and be able to go up to them to ask about sharing notes, or that a > >>blind child wouldn't know his mother arrived at school to pick him up > >>until she comes over to tap him on the shoulder. But each step toward > >>fuller autonomy is an important one for the sensory impaired. > >> The friend-finding feature works because the cane contains a > >>specially designed phone that slots into the handle and connects to a > >>Bluetooth earpiece with an audio interface. A trackball on the handle > >>controls the menu and points which way to go. > >> When a friend checks in on Foursquare (or any other location-sharing > >>service), the cane alerts the blind user with an audio message, saying > >>how far away the person is, down to how many steps it will take to > reach them. > >> The cane offers the option to ignore, call the friend, or, most > >>impressively, go find them, an option blind people don't usually get to > >>experience. > >> "The tactile navigator is a directional pointer that translates GPS > >>map directions into an 'arrowb that points towards the way to go," Chew > says. > >> In addition to the phone features, the BlSpot cane also does a better > >>job at its primary function, preventing a blind person from walking > >>into things. > >> An ultrasonic sensor detects obstacles a normal cane would not, like > >>hanging objects, rails, or other protruding structures that the > >>ground-level sweep of a cane might miss. The product demonstration > >>video portrays the everyday danger of a broom handle slanting out of a > >>garbage can, for instance. A standard cane would sweep under the > >>broom without detecting it, leaving the handle dangerously aimed right > >>at the blind walkerbs head. The BlSpot cane senses it and beeps a > >>warning call in the Bluetooth earpiece. > >> And like other minimalist white gadgets with just one button these > >>days, the BlSpotbs design elegance makes it easier to handle at home. > >>The electronic components detach from the cane to charge, cable-free, > >>on an inductive charging dock. And when the phone component is not > >>inserted, it acts just like a regular cell phone, so you can still > >>accept calls without the Bluetooth headset, controlling the menu with > >>the tactile track ball on the back. > >> Chew is currently looking to find a partner to bring this design to > >>market on an industrial level. She was recently recognized with second > >>prize in the James Dyson Awards. > >> Copyright 2011 Mansueto Ventures, LLC. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 28 20:47:05 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:47:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Using the word retard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Marc, Well said, and I agree. And it's not about eliminating a word, but it's about eliminating negative conotations currently associated with a word. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 5 Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:52:27 -0800 From: Marc Workman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Using the word retard Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, I often imagine people of so called minorities, being the ones who decide how it is that they would like to be referred. This, I think, is meant to imply that people who have traditionally been labelled "retarded" prefer to be referred to in this way. I'm really not sure this is true. If there is evidence of this, I'd be interested. I do know that there were some pretty widespread protests against the use of the word "retarded" in the movie Tropic Thunder. A quick Google search will provide a lot of news coverage on this. My understanding is that, though not everyone agreed with the criticisms, there was a pretty broad-based coalition of groups representing intellectually disabled people that came together to protest the film. I'm all for reclaiming words, and I much prefer blind and disabled to terms like sight impaired and differently-abled. But some labels are outdated and based on very negative attitudes and need to be retired. I'm not handicapped, I'm not crippled, I'm not a person with special needs, the last of these being the one I dislike the most. It's one thing for gay people to reclaim the label "queer", but that doesn't mean that, if one person is fine with being called a "fag", this is suddenly an acceptable word, and we shouldn't discourage it's use. So what I'm wondering is if the label "retard" is like the word "queer" or "blind", if there is an actual effort to reclaim it and change what it means, or if it's closer to the word "fag" in my example above, a word that perhaps you and a few others are happy to identify with, but one that the vast majority of people who are sattled with that label reject. The evidence I have points to the latter, but I'm prepared to revise my opinion based on new evidence. In either case, Bridgit's right to point out that most of the time that "retarded" is used, e.g., that movie was retarded, my computer is being retarded, the word is not meant to refer to slowed down or unusual cognitive capacities. I would hope that, at the very least, we can agree that kids calling each other, along with everything else under the sun, retarded is inappropriate and should be discouraged. Regards, Marc From hope.paulos at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 20:50:09 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:50:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves socialinteractions] References: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com><00c701ccae0c$f8bd2e10$ea378a30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5F88CF4C4E34478CAC4E68F3E8705711@Espy> It definitely sounds interesting. I'd probably try it out, but I'm a dog person, so wouldn't use it that often. If they offered the GPS/phone device separately from the cane I'd probably use it more. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Molloy" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves socialinteractions] > Sounds pretty interesting, but also a little strange. A cane to help > us find our friends? I feel like that makes us too dependent on > technology. What's wrong with just striking up a conversation with > someone? Anyway, I'd probably try it out, just to say I'd done it. But > give me a folding cane any day. Much easier to handle on a college > campus. > Patrick > > On 11/28/11, David Bouchard wrote: >> It sounds very expensive and bulky. It's a nifty idea, but a little >> impractical. Perhaps a separate device would be in order, something that >> is >> not a cane. I still prefer the NFB cane due to its lightness and >> receptivity. This cane would take that away because of its weight and >> probably its material composition. >> David >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 2:17 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social >> interactions] >> >> Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? >> Arielle >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Linda Coccovizzo >> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:07:03 -0600 >> Subject: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] >> To: John , bviparents at yahoogroups.com, >> Missouri Chat , "Adaptive technology information and >> support." , LCA at yahoogroups.com >> >> Wow. Now wouldn't this be cool? This article, however, does not >> reflect my opinion on the work the NFB has done on the the car. I think >> that's pretty exciting as well. >> >> Linda C. >> >> A Cane For The Blind Improves Social Interactions, Sunday Strolls >> >>> Photo courtesy of: The Dyson Awards >> >>> As scientists make slow and steady progress on sensors to help the >> >>>blind see and move, this cane helps them say hi to friends. >> >>> While the National Federation for the Blind is pushing to build an >> >>>auto interface that lets visually impaired people drive safely and >> >> autonomously design student Selene Chew has a more modest >> >>>technological breakthrough to help the 285 million people who are >> >>>blind or partially blind The BlSpot cane, a clever and empathetic >> >>>technological attempt to create new opportunities for social >> >>>interaction for the visually impaired by harnessing GPS technology and >> non-visual interface design. >> >>> "I took the approach to serve their emotional needs more than just >> >>>their physical needs," she says. So, for her design program at the >> >>>National University of Singapore, she built a prototype white cane >> >>>that doubles as a GPS-enabled smartphone with a tactile and audio >> >>>interface that lets a blind user walk more confidently while >> >>>navigating social settings a little more easily than usual. >> >>> "Their social life is dependent on the people around them. They >> >>>cannot say hi to a friend without the friend saying hi first," Chew >> >>>explains. A blind person could be standing right next to a friend at >> >>>a bus stop and not know it. The BlSpot cane will alert the blind >> >>>friend that someone they know is nearby, and direct them to initiate a >> >>>hello. That's an empowering new ability. It's not a pressing health >> >>>issue that a blind person won't ever see a classmate across the quad >> >>>and be able to go up to them to ask about sharing notes, or that a >> >>>blind child wouldn't know his mother arrived at school to pick him up >> >>>until she comes over to tap him on the shoulder. But each step toward >> >>>fuller autonomy is an important one for the sensory impaired. >> >>> The friend-finding feature works because the cane contains a >> >>>specially designed phone that slots into the handle and connects to a >> >>>Bluetooth earpiece with an audio interface. A trackball on the handle >> >>>controls the menu and points which way to go. >> >>> When a friend checks in on Foursquare (or any other location-sharing >> >>>service), the cane alerts the blind user with an audio message, saying >> >>>how far away the person is, down to how many steps it will take to >> reach them. >> >>> The cane offers the option to ignore, call the friend, or, most >> >>>impressively, go find them, an option blind people don't usually get to >> >>>experience. >> >>> "The tactile navigator is a directional pointer that translates GPS >> >>>map directions into an 'arrowb that points towards the way to go," Chew >> says. >> >>> In addition to the phone features, the BlSpot cane also does a better >> >>>job at its primary function, preventing a blind person from walking >> >>>into things. >> >>> An ultrasonic sensor detects obstacles a normal cane would not, like >> >>>hanging objects, rails, or other protruding structures that the >> >>>ground-level sweep of a cane might miss. The product demonstration >> >>>video portrays the everyday danger of a broom handle slanting out of a >> >>>garbage can, for instance. A standard cane would sweep under the >> >>>broom without detecting it, leaving the handle dangerously aimed right >> >>>at the blind walkerbs head. The BlSpot cane senses it and beeps a >> >>>warning call in the Bluetooth earpiece. >> >>> And like other minimalist white gadgets with just one button these >> >>>days, the BlSpotbs design elegance makes it easier to handle at home. >> >>>The electronic components detach from the cane to charge, cable-free, >> >>>on an inductive charging dock. And when the phone component is not >> >>>inserted, it acts just like a regular cell phone, so you can still >> >>>accept calls without the Bluetooth headset, controlling the menu with >> >>>the tactile track ball on the back. >> >>> Chew is currently looking to find a partner to bring this design to >> >>>market on an industrial level. She was recently recognized with second >> >>>prize in the James Dyson Awards. >> >>> Copyright 2011 Mansueto Ventures, LLC. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 21:13:55 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:13:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves socialinteractions] In-Reply-To: <5F88CF4C4E34478CAC4E68F3E8705711@Espy> References: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com> <00c701ccae0c$f8bd2e10$ea378a30$@gmail.com> <5F88CF4C4E34478CAC4E68F3E8705711@Espy> Message-ID: The GPS and the phone sounds like a cool idea. I just wonder how all of that stuff fits into a cane. Patrick On 11/28/11, Hope Paulos wrote: > It definitely sounds interesting. I'd probably try it out, but I'm a dog > person, so wouldn't use it that often. If they offered the GPS/phone device > separately from the cane I'd probably use it more. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick Molloy" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves > socialinteractions] > > >> Sounds pretty interesting, but also a little strange. A cane to help >> us find our friends? I feel like that makes us too dependent on >> technology. What's wrong with just striking up a conversation with >> someone? Anyway, I'd probably try it out, just to say I'd done it. But >> give me a folding cane any day. Much easier to handle on a college >> campus. >> Patrick >> >> On 11/28/11, David Bouchard wrote: >>> It sounds very expensive and bulky. It's a nifty idea, but a little >>> impractical. Perhaps a separate device would be in order, something that >>> is >>> not a cane. I still prefer the NFB cane due to its lightness and >>> receptivity. This cane would take that away because of its weight and >>> probably its material composition. >>> David >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 2:17 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social >>> interactions] >>> >>> Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? >>> Arielle >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Linda Coccovizzo >>> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:07:03 -0600 >>> Subject: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] >>> To: John , bviparents at yahoogroups.com, >>> Missouri Chat , "Adaptive technology information and >>> support." , LCA at yahoogroups.com >>> >>> Wow. Now wouldn't this be cool? This article, however, does not >>> reflect my opinion on the work the NFB has done on the the car. I think >>> that's pretty exciting as well. >>> >>> Linda C. >>> >>> A Cane For The Blind Improves Social Interactions, Sunday Strolls >>> >>>> Photo courtesy of: The Dyson Awards >>> >>>> As scientists make slow and steady progress on sensors to help the >>> >>>>blind see and move, this cane helps them say hi to friends. >>> >>>> While the National Federation for the Blind is pushing to build an >>> >>>>auto interface that lets visually impaired people drive safely and >>> >>> autonomously design student Selene Chew has a more modest >>> >>>>technological breakthrough to help the 285 million people who are >>> >>>>blind or partially blind The BlSpot cane, a clever and empathetic >>> >>>>technological attempt to create new opportunities for social >>> >>>>interaction for the visually impaired by harnessing GPS technology and >>> non-visual interface design. >>> >>>> "I took the approach to serve their emotional needs more than just >>> >>>>their physical needs," she says. So, for her design program at the >>> >>>>National University of Singapore, she built a prototype white cane >>> >>>>that doubles as a GPS-enabled smartphone with a tactile and audio >>> >>>>interface that lets a blind user walk more confidently while >>> >>>>navigating social settings a little more easily than usual. >>> >>>> "Their social life is dependent on the people around them. They >>> >>>>cannot say hi to a friend without the friend saying hi first," Chew >>> >>>>explains. A blind person could be standing right next to a friend at >>> >>>>a bus stop and not know it. The BlSpot cane will alert the blind >>> >>>>friend that someone they know is nearby, and direct them to initiate a >>> >>>>hello. That's an empowering new ability. It's not a pressing health >>> >>>>issue that a blind person won't ever see a classmate across the quad >>> >>>>and be able to go up to them to ask about sharing notes, or that a >>> >>>>blind child wouldn't know his mother arrived at school to pick him up >>> >>>>until she comes over to tap him on the shoulder. But each step toward >>> >>>>fuller autonomy is an important one for the sensory impaired. >>> >>>> The friend-finding feature works because the cane contains a >>> >>>>specially designed phone that slots into the handle and connects to a >>> >>>>Bluetooth earpiece with an audio interface. A trackball on the handle >>> >>>>controls the menu and points which way to go. >>> >>>> When a friend checks in on Foursquare (or any other location-sharing >>> >>>>service), the cane alerts the blind user with an audio message, saying >>> >>>>how far away the person is, down to how many steps it will take to >>> reach them. >>> >>>> The cane offers the option to ignore, call the friend, or, most >>> >>>>impressively, go find them, an option blind people don't usually get to >>> >>>>experience. >>> >>>> "The tactile navigator is a directional pointer that translates GPS >>> >>>>map directions into an 'arrowb that points towards the way to go," Chew >>> says. >>> >>>> In addition to the phone features, the BlSpot cane also does a better >>> >>>>job at its primary function, preventing a blind person from walking >>> >>>>into things. >>> >>>> An ultrasonic sensor detects obstacles a normal cane would not, like >>> >>>>hanging objects, rails, or other protruding structures that the >>> >>>>ground-level sweep of a cane might miss. The product demonstration >>> >>>>video portrays the everyday danger of a broom handle slanting out of a >>> >>>>garbage can, for instance. A standard cane would sweep under the >>> >>>>broom without detecting it, leaving the handle dangerously aimed right >>> >>>>at the blind walkerbs head. The BlSpot cane senses it and beeps a >>> >>>>warning call in the Bluetooth earpiece. >>> >>>> And like other minimalist white gadgets with just one button these >>> >>>>days, the BlSpotbs design elegance makes it easier to handle at home. >>> >>>>The electronic components detach from the cane to charge, cable-free, >>> >>>>on an inductive charging dock. And when the phone component is not >>> >>>>inserted, it acts just like a regular cell phone, so you can still >>> >>>>accept calls without the Bluetooth headset, controlling the menu with >>> >>>>the tactile track ball on the back. >>> >>>> Chew is currently looking to find a partner to bring this design to >>> >>>>market on an industrial level. She was recently recognized with second >>> >>>>prize in the James Dyson Awards. >>> >>>> Copyright 2011 Mansueto Ventures, LLC. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From carlymih at earthlink.net Mon Nov 28 21:48:43 2011 From: carlymih at earthlink.net (Carly) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:48:43 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 61, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: <28DEBD505C185140A61A985DCBAB086ACA1BFE@CH1PRD0402MB102.nam prd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <28DEBD505C185140A61A985DCBAB086ACA1BFE@CH1PRD0402MB102.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111128134102.01d99ec0@earthlink.net> Good afternoon, Tara and other interested, folk, We are without a particular sense which most people cling to, in my opinion rather helplessly. This is how, often we must rely on such input being supplemented buy those with ocular, vision.It isn't, in my opinion about "dependence" or "independence" but, it is what it is. If people wanna call it dependence, hopefully they can provide other suggestions as to how the blind person, would go about achieving the same thing, nonvisually? Tara, Weren't you at the CCB back in '02? 'ts good to see ya, here! for today, Car , Tara wrote: >I'll add a little more about the appearance thing. I firsst want to >let everyone know that I don't judge people by how they look, and >definitely believe people have the right to choose how they >look. I just feel that blind people need to have honest input about >physical appearance. After this input, they an choose to change >their behavior or stay the same. Like I said earlier, we are >conditioned socially not to say bad things about people, and in most >cases this is correct. Yet, blind people do not have all the >information, so have to use sighted assistance, just as deaf people >have to have hearing people tell them about sound. I am not saying >blind people are dependent on sighted, or that we are >less important. Once blind people have this info, they can make >independent judgements. Personally,, I want constructive criticism, >even if it hurts my feelings. If the person is giving me this >feedback to help me improve, then I will not take offense. > >I have witnessed sighted telling blind that "no one can tell they >are different", and this makes me angry because it is a lie. I know >they make the comments out of kindness, but they do not realize that >this is keeping vital information from the blind person. I feel >blind people should have the right to know how sight works >and about body language. For example, I have had blind people lean >towards me, pointing their ear at me to eavesdrop. They do not >realize I can see they are spying on me, and they are not being >sneaky. I have seen blind guide dog owners not pick up after their >dog and run away from the scene, but they do not realize that >sighted people have seen them, since they can be watched at far >distances. I have seen blind people pick a wedgie and do not >realize that sighted can see them from around the corner due to the >angle at which they are standing. In these situations, the sighted >observer will glance at another sighted person and smile, basically >thinking the situation is "cute", but will not correct the >problem out of fear of being mean. Yet, this causes the blind >person to make these same mistakes over and over again. I think >this is worse when it happens with the rehab profession, since it is >their job to help us. > >I would like to see rehab offer a class where you could be analyzed >1-on-1 to see how you appear. The person would describe how the >public reacts to you, compares your style of dress to others, talks >about your body language, etc. Once you finished this class, you >could chosse to change or stay the same, but you would have more >"pieces of the puzzle" to help you make the best decision. This >class would have to only be open to mature people, since it >would be a very blunt way of talking about life. > >Everyone changes their appearance to fit the norm and please people >to some extent. For example, all people wear clothes in public, >women usually shave their underarms, people clean and brush their >hair, brush their teeth. Usually people dress up for a job >interview, at prom, or for their wedding. Basically, I'm saying >appearance is important. It's fun to experiment with different >looks to see how the public reacts. > >What we need to find out is how important on teh >social acceptability scale different body language is. Will >rocking back and forth upset 5 people or 2500 people? Will >masturbating in class upset 1 person or 1 million people? Will >these behaviors cause one to lose possible friendships, romantic >relationships, or employment opportunities? Some are universally >negative, like the masturbation in class. Yet, where do others fit >in? Does having disfigured eyes cause a lot of negative >reactions? How about having a stiff posture and strange >walk? There are ways to objectively test these. Have a >control group, people not exhibiting these behaviors go in public >and record with a hidden camera. Then, have the same people go in >public and exhibit the test actions and record with a hidden >camera. Then, watch both recordings and compare/contrast. > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 23:23:59 2011 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:23:59 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com> Message-ID: <157126E1-95AA-4854-9ACE-EE7651CBD19C@gmail.com> I'm not saying I would use this, but wouldn't it make more sense to simply develop an iPhone app. I've already got the iPhone and the bluetooth ear piece. What advantage is there to strapping my phone to a cane as opposed to keeping it in my pocket? Really, if I wanted, I could already use Four Square to find near by friends and Navigon to give me directions. These interfaces could probably be made more user friendly, but besides that, I don't see what advantage this set up is supposed to bring. Best, Marc On 2011-11-28, at 12:16 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? > Arielle > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Linda Coccovizzo > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:07:03 -0600 > Subject: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] > To: John , bviparents at yahoogroups.com, > Missouri Chat , "Adaptive technology information and > support." , LCA at yahoogroups.com > > Wow. Now wouldn't this be cool? This article, however, does not > reflect my opinion on the work the NFB has done on the the car. I think > that's pretty exciting as well. > > Linda C. > > A Cane For The Blind Improves Social Interactions, Sunday Strolls > >> Photo courtesy of: The Dyson Awards > >> As scientists make slow and steady progress on sensors to help the > >> blind see and move, this cane helps them say hi to friends. > >> While the National Federation for the Blind is pushing to build an > >> auto interface that lets visually impaired people drive safely and > > autonomously design student Selene Chew has a more modest > >> technological breakthrough to help the 285 million people who are > >> blind or partially blind The BlSpot cane, a clever and empathetic > >> technological attempt to create new opportunities for social > >> interaction for the visually impaired by harnessing GPS technology and > non-visual interface design. > >> "I took the approach to serve their emotional needs more than just > >> their physical needs," she says. So, for her design program at the > >> National University of Singapore, she built a prototype white cane > >> that doubles as a GPS-enabled smartphone with a tactile and audio > >> interface that lets a blind user walk more confidently while > >> navigating social settings a little more easily than usual. > >> "Their social life is dependent on the people around them. They > >> cannot say hi to a friend without the friend saying hi first," Chew > >> explains. A blind person could be standing right next to a friend at > >> a bus stop and not know it. The BlSpot cane will alert the blind > >> friend that someone they know is nearby, and direct them to initiate a > >> hello. That's an empowering new ability. It's not a pressing health > >> issue that a blind person won't ever see a classmate across the quad > >> and be able to go up to them to ask about sharing notes, or that a > >> blind child wouldn't know his mother arrived at school to pick him up > >> until she comes over to tap him on the shoulder. But each step toward > >> fuller autonomy is an important one for the sensory impaired. > >> The friend-finding feature works because the cane contains a > >> specially designed phone that slots into the handle and connects to a > >> Bluetooth earpiece with an audio interface. A trackball on the handle > >> controls the menu and points which way to go. > >> When a friend checks in on Foursquare (or any other location-sharing > >> service), the cane alerts the blind user with an audio message, saying > >> how far away the person is, down to how many steps it will take to > reach them. > >> The cane offers the option to ignore, call the friend, or, most > >> impressively, go find them, an option blind people don't usually get to > >> experience. > >> "The tactile navigator is a directional pointer that translates GPS > >> map directions into an 'arrowb that points towards the way to go," Chew > says. > >> In addition to the phone features, the BlSpot cane also does a better > >> job at its primary function, preventing a blind person from walking > >> into things. > >> An ultrasonic sensor detects obstacles a normal cane would not, like > >> hanging objects, rails, or other protruding structures that the > >> ground-level sweep of a cane might miss. The product demonstration > >> video portrays the everyday danger of a broom handle slanting out of a > >> garbage can, for instance. A standard cane would sweep under the > >> broom without detecting it, leaving the handle dangerously aimed right > >> at the blind walkerbs head. The BlSpot cane senses it and beeps a > >> warning call in the Bluetooth earpiece. > >> And like other minimalist white gadgets with just one button these > >> days, the BlSpotbs design elegance makes it easier to handle at home. > >> The electronic components detach from the cane to charge, cable-free, > >> on an inductive charging dock. And when the phone component is not > >> inserted, it acts just like a regular cell phone, so you can still > >> accept calls without the Bluetooth headset, controlling the menu with > >> the tactile track ball on the back. > >> Chew is currently looking to find a partner to bring this design to > >> market on an industrial level. She was recently recognized with second > >> prize in the James Dyson Awards. > >> Copyright 2011 Mansueto Ventures, LLC. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From dwebster125 at comcast.net Mon Nov 28 23:38:31 2011 From: dwebster125 at comcast.net (Dave Webster) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:38:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] In-Reply-To: <157126E1-95AA-4854-9ACE-EE7651CBD19C@gmail.com> References: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com> <157126E1-95AA-4854-9ACE-EE7651CBD19C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01ccae26$d6f962c0$84ec2840$@net> Wow this thing sounds really really cool. I love it. I love it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 5:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] I'm not saying I would use this, but wouldn't it make more sense to simply develop an iPhone app. I've already got the iPhone and the bluetooth ear piece. What advantage is there to strapping my phone to a cane as opposed to keeping it in my pocket? Really, if I wanted, I could already use Four Square to find near by friends and Navigon to give me directions. These interfaces could probably be made more user friendly, but besides that, I don't see what advantage this set up is supposed to bring. Best, Marc On 2011-11-28, at 12:16 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? > Arielle > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Linda Coccovizzo > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:07:03 -0600 > Subject: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] > To: John , bviparents at yahoogroups.com, > Missouri Chat , "Adaptive technology information and > support." , LCA at yahoogroups.com > > Wow. Now wouldn't this be cool? This article, however, does not > reflect my opinion on the work the NFB has done on the the car. I think > that's pretty exciting as well. > > Linda C. > > A Cane For The Blind Improves Social Interactions, Sunday Strolls > >> Photo courtesy of: The Dyson Awards > >> As scientists make slow and steady progress on sensors to help the > >> blind see and move, this cane helps them say hi to friends. > >> While the National Federation for the Blind is pushing to build an > >> auto interface that lets visually impaired people drive safely and > > autonomously design student Selene Chew has a more modest > >> technological breakthrough to help the 285 million people who are > >> blind or partially blind The BlSpot cane, a clever and empathetic > >> technological attempt to create new opportunities for social > >> interaction for the visually impaired by harnessing GPS technology and > non-visual interface design. > >> "I took the approach to serve their emotional needs more than just > >> their physical needs," she says. So, for her design program at the > >> National University of Singapore, she built a prototype white cane > >> that doubles as a GPS-enabled smartphone with a tactile and audio > >> interface that lets a blind user walk more confidently while > >> navigating social settings a little more easily than usual. > >> "Their social life is dependent on the people around them. They > >> cannot say hi to a friend without the friend saying hi first," Chew > >> explains. A blind person could be standing right next to a friend at > >> a bus stop and not know it. The BlSpot cane will alert the blind > >> friend that someone they know is nearby, and direct them to initiate a > >> hello. That's an empowering new ability. It's not a pressing health > >> issue that a blind person won't ever see a classmate across the quad > >> and be able to go up to them to ask about sharing notes, or that a > >> blind child wouldn't know his mother arrived at school to pick him up > >> until she comes over to tap him on the shoulder. But each step toward > >> fuller autonomy is an important one for the sensory impaired. > >> The friend-finding feature works because the cane contains a > >> specially designed phone that slots into the handle and connects to a > >> Bluetooth earpiece with an audio interface. A trackball on the handle > >> controls the menu and points which way to go. > >> When a friend checks in on Foursquare (or any other location-sharing > >> service), the cane alerts the blind user with an audio message, saying > >> how far away the person is, down to how many steps it will take to > reach them. > >> The cane offers the option to ignore, call the friend, or, most > >> impressively, go find them, an option blind people don't usually get to > >> experience. > >> "The tactile navigator is a directional pointer that translates GPS > >> map directions into an 'arrowb that points towards the way to go," Chew > says. > >> In addition to the phone features, the BlSpot cane also does a better > >> job at its primary function, preventing a blind person from walking > >> into things. > >> An ultrasonic sensor detects obstacles a normal cane would not, like > >> hanging objects, rails, or other protruding structures that the > >> ground-level sweep of a cane might miss. The product demonstration > >> video portrays the everyday danger of a broom handle slanting out of a > >> garbage can, for instance. A standard cane would sweep under the > >> broom without detecting it, leaving the handle dangerously aimed right > >> at the blind walkerbs head. The BlSpot cane senses it and beeps a > >> warning call in the Bluetooth earpiece. > >> And like other minimalist white gadgets with just one button these > >> days, the BlSpotbs design elegance makes it easier to handle at home. > >> The electronic components detach from the cane to charge, cable-free, > >> on an inductive charging dock. And when the phone component is not > >> inserted, it acts just like a regular cell phone, so you can still > >> accept calls without the Bluetooth headset, controlling the menu with > >> the tactile track ball on the back. > >> Chew is currently looking to find a partner to bring this design to > >> market on an industrial level. She was recently recognized with second > >> prize in the James Dyson Awards. > >> Copyright 2011 Mansueto Ventures, LLC. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dwebster125%40comcast.ne t From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Nov 29 00:06:55 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 19:06:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using the word retard Message-ID: 68398b44-7109-4fe4-98f5-23de99bc2064@samobile.net Mark, I'm not sure what the generally accepted term is either. But it also seems to me that the overwhelming majority of people with intellectual disabilities do not prefer the word "retarded" to describe them. I did work with one lady who referred to herself as "a slow learner." she was in her fifties, so it's possible that she's decided to retain the meaning of the term "retarded" to describe herself while doing away with the negativity of the word "retarded" itself. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Carly wrote, > I often imagine people of so called minorities, being the ones > who decide how it is that they would like to be referred. > This, I think, is meant to imply that people who have traditionally > been labelled "retarded" prefer to be referred to in this way. I'm > really not sure this is true. If there is evidence of this, I'd be > interested. I do know that there were some pretty widespread protests > against the use of the word "retarded" in the movie Tropic Thunder. A > quick Google search will provide a lot of news coverage on this. My > understanding is that, though not everyone agreed with the criticisms, > there was a pretty broad-based coalition of groups representing > intellectually disabled people that came together to protest the film. > I'm all for reclaiming words, and I much prefer blind and disabled to > terms like sight impaired and differently-abled. But some labels are > outdated and based on very negative attitudes and need to be retired. > I'm not handicapped, I'm not crippled, I'm not a person with special > needs, the last of these being the one I dislike the most. It's one > thing for gay people to reclaim the label "queer", but that doesn't > mean that, if one person is fine with being called a "fag", this is > suddenly an acceptable word, and we shouldn't discourage it's use. > So what I'm wondering is if the label "retard" is like the word "queer" > or "blind", if there is an actual effort to reclaim it and change what > it means, or if it's closer to the word "fag" in my example above, a > word that perhaps you and a few others are happy to identify with, but > one that the vast majority of people who are sattled with that label > reject. The evidence I have points to the latter, but I'm prepared to > revise my opinion based on new evidence. > In either case, Bridgit's right to point out that most of the time that > "retarded" is used, e.g., that movie was retarded, my computer is being > retarded, the word is not meant to refer to slowed down or unusual > cognitive capacities. I would hope that, at the very least, we can > agree that kids calling each other, along with everything else under > the sun, retarded is inappropriate and should be discouraged. > Regards, > Marc > On 2011-11-26, at 10:05 PM, Carly wrote: >> Hi, Bridgit, >> I often imagine people of so called minorities, being the ones >> who decide how it is that they would like to be referred. Too often, >> people ascribe these meaningless, labels to other groups. Like, who >> ever heard of someone who is "sight impaired?" >> I don't know about you but I am just BLIND. I am not possessing of a >> set of actual, eyeballs which could even be impaired. So To hell with >> all those terms whose function it seems to be, to put whichever >> speaker, at some kind of grater ease. : >>> Carly, >>> I never said we should completely eliminate the word retard from the >>> vernacular; I just don't appreciate the use in which most people now say >>> the word. It is often said with negative conotations, and I've heard >>> people from all age groups apply the word retard to a person, or thing, >>> with the intent to demean. >>> The word itself, yes, means simply slow. It's used in musical >>> composition, and it was originally used to describe people with slower >>> mental capacities, but it has taken on very negative tones, similar to >>> using the word "gay" as in homosexual, except it is often used in a >>> negative way and not to simply describe. >>> Sincerely, >>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter >>> Read my blog at: >>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ >>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." >>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan >>> Message: 9 >>> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 18:54:40 -0800 >>> From: Carly >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions >>> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111125171625.01cbae78 at earthlink.net> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed >>> Hi, Marc, and Bridgit, >>> If you notice, the word "retarded" >>> simply describes someone who is slower to >>> complete brain function.Furthermore, It doesn't >>> seem right by anyone's calculations to, >>> effectively and literally as Brigit suggests >>> avoid that particular word altogether, Wouldn't >>> Doing so be in some way singling those folks who >>> happened to process slower than is the norm, out? >>> If one is to get past the idea that, actual >>> intent in which something is termed, carries more >>> meaning than does meaningless, verbeage which, >>> itself doesn't really communicate anything baring >>> substance?I am brain damaged, so my processing >>> functions seem a little bit retarded sometimes >>> yet, I most certainly do not appreciate the >>> politically, correct construct they came up with, >>> that by effectively erasing the concept, of being >>> retarded, from the vernacular, so too will those >>> unsightlies, be effectively, erased? >>> in retardation, >>> Carly >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40earthlink.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Nov 29 00:13:55 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 19:13:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] Message-ID: b5bd710f-2aff-4732-aabd-bca9737c697d@samobile.net Arielle, I think the idea is a relatively sound one, but I wouldn't implement it in a cane. I'd rather leave teh cane the way it is, but use the friend-finding technology with already existing cell phone services like Facebook mobile or something. Better yet, why not make a iPhone app that does the same thing? Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? > Arielle > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Linda Coccovizzo > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:07:03 -0600 > Subject: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] > To: John , bviparents at yahoogroups.com, > Missouri Chat , "Adaptive technology information and > support." , LCA at yahoogroups.com > Wow. Now wouldn't this be cool? This article, however, does not > reflect my opinion on the work the NFB has done on the the car. I think > that's pretty exciting as well. > Linda C. > A Cane For The Blind Improves Social Interactions, Sunday Strolls >> Photo courtesy of: The Dyson Awards >> As scientists make slow and steady progress on sensors to help the >> blind see and move, this cane helps them say hi to friends. >> While the National Federation for the Blind is pushing to build an >> auto interface that lets visually impaired people drive safely and > autonomously design student Selene Chew has a more modest >> technological breakthrough to help the 285 million people who are >> blind or partially blind The BlSpot cane, a clever and empathetic >> technological attempt to create new opportunities for social >> interaction for the visually impaired by harnessing GPS technology and > non-visual interface design. >> "I took the approach to serve their emotional needs more than just >> their physical needs," she says. So, for her design program at the >> National University of Singapore, she built a prototype white cane >> that doubles as a GPS-enabled smartphone with a tactile and audio >> interface that lets a blind user walk more confidently while >> navigating social settings a little more easily than usual. >> "Their social life is dependent on the people around them. They >> cannot say hi to a friend without the friend saying hi first," Chew >> explains. A blind person could be standing right next to a friend at >> a bus stop and not know it. The BlSpot cane will alert the blind >> friend that someone they know is nearby, and direct them to initiate a >> hello. That's an empowering new ability. It's not a pressing health >> issue that a blind person won't ever see a classmate across the quad >> and be able to go up to them to ask about sharing notes, or that a >> blind child wouldn't know his mother arrived at school to pick him up >> until she comes over to tap him on the shoulder. But each step toward >> fuller autonomy is an important one for the sensory impaired. >> The friend-finding feature works because the cane contains a >> specially designed phone that slots into the handle and connects to a >> Bluetooth earpiece with an audio interface. A trackball on the handle >> controls the menu and points which way to go. >> When a friend checks in on Foursquare (or any other location-sharing >> service), the cane alerts the blind user with an audio message, saying >> how far away the person is, down to how many steps it will take to > reach them. >> The cane offers the option to ignore, call the friend, or, most >> impressively, go find them, an option blind people don't usually get to >> experience. >> "The tactile navigator is a directional pointer that translates GPS >> map directions into an 'arrowb that points towards the way to go," Chew > says. >> In addition to the phone features, the BlSpot cane also does a better >> job at its primary function, preventing a blind person from walking >> into things. >> An ultrasonic sensor detects obstacles a normal cane would not, like >> hanging objects, rails, or other protruding structures that the >> ground-level sweep of a cane might miss. The product demonstration >> video portrays the everyday danger of a broom handle slanting out of a >> garbage can, for instance. A standard cane would sweep under the >> broom without detecting it, leaving the handle dangerously aimed right >> at the blind walkerbs head. The BlSpot cane senses it and beeps a >> warning call in the Bluetooth earpiece. >> And like other minimalist white gadgets with just one button these >> days, the BlSpotbs design elegance makes it easier to handle at home. >> The electronic components detach from the cane to charge, cable-free, >> on an inductive charging dock. And when the phone component is not >> inserted, it acts just like a regular cell phone, so you can still >> accept calls without the Bluetooth headset, controlling the menu with >> the tactile track ball on the back. >> Chew is currently looking to find a partner to bring this design to >> market on an industrial level. She was recently recognized with second >> prize in the James Dyson Awards. >> Copyright 2011 Mansueto Ventures, LLC. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 01:28:44 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 18:28:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com> Message-ID: Hi all, A few comments: 1. I couldn't help but notice some of the pathetic and exaggerated statements in the article, such as "They must be dependent on another person" (for social interaction). While it is true we can't locate silent people, we can, and do, use our ears to find people at times. This aspect of blindness is completely ignored here and I am not even sure if this invventor is aware that blind people use their ears as a means to find people. And, in spite of what the article says, I learned at a young age to detect my mother's presence in a room. :) 2. I don't quite get it. So in order to locate someone with the device, that person has to check in on Foursquare or another such venue? I know even my friends who are heavy Foursquare users don't check in everywhere they go. So what are the odds of accidentally bumping into someone who checked in on Foursquare right where you are? Most of the time we need to find people is in small and crowded spaces like at meetings or parties, where people may or may not check in. If I make plans to meet a friend and they have to go to the trouble of checking in for me to find them, it'd be easier for them to just come up and say hi to me, no? That said, I might be for something that uses face-recognition technology to ID people in a small space, like a meeting etc. 3. I agree with others that it'd be more practical to implement this as an app rather than as part of a cane. Also, I like the idea of overhead object identification as cane users currently have little defense against overhead objects. But is a mere beep sufficient to tell the user exactly what is hanging overhead, how far down it's hanging, how big it is, etc.? It reminds me of the infamous "watch out" sometimes exclaimed by sighted onlookers, which is very general and meaningless. The cane gives tactile feedback so we know what is on the ground-at least how big it is, how close it is and where the clear path is-so it seems we would need to get similar tactile feedback for overhead objects in order for the technology to be effective. Otherwise we might as well just use a plain old cane with a GPS app. Best, Arielle From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 02:01:02 2011 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 21:01:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups Message-ID: <4ed43d13.4446340a.767a.72a7@mx.google.com> I do it all the time! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" References: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com> Message-ID: Arielle, Didn't the laser cane from a couple of years ago have overhanging object identification? Also, how expensive do you think one of these canes would be? I'm not sure if it would really be worth it. Patrick On 11/28/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > A few comments: > 1. I couldn't help but notice some of the pathetic and exaggerated > statements in the article, such as "They must be dependent on another > person" (for social interaction). While it is true we can't locate > silent people, we can, and do, use our ears to find people at times. > This aspect of blindness is completely ignored here and I am not even > sure if this invventor is aware that blind people use their ears as a > means to find people. And, in spite of what the article says, I > learned at a young age to detect my mother's presence in a room. :) > 2. I don't quite get it. So in order to locate someone with the > device, that person has to check in on Foursquare or another such > venue? I know even my friends who are heavy Foursquare users don't > check in everywhere they go. So what are the odds of accidentally > bumping into someone who checked in on Foursquare right where you are? > Most of the time we need to find people is in small and crowded spaces > like at meetings or parties, where people may or may not check in. If > I make plans to meet a friend and they have to go to the trouble of > checking in for me to find them, it'd be easier for them to just come > up and say hi to me, no? > That said, I might be for something that uses face-recognition > technology to ID people in a small space, like a meeting etc. > 3. I agree with others that it'd be more practical to implement this > as an app rather than as part of a cane. Also, I like the idea of > overhead object identification as cane users currently have little > defense against overhead objects. But is a mere beep sufficient to > tell the user exactly what is hanging overhead, how far down it's > hanging, how big it is, etc.? It reminds me of the infamous "watch > out" sometimes exclaimed by sighted onlookers, which is very general > and meaningless. The cane gives tactile feedback so we know what is on > the ground-at least how big it is, how close it is and where the clear > path is-so it seems we would need to get similar tactile feedback for > overhead objects in order for the technology to be effective. > Otherwise we might as well just use a plain old cane with a GPS app. > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 02:28:14 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 19:28:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] In-Reply-To: References: <4ED3E9E7.1060100@coccovizzo.com> Message-ID: Patrick, Good point. I often get the sense that all the guys and gals who decide to invent smart canes and other gadgets for the blind develop ideas without really talking to each other about what already exists and what others are inventing, which is why we're seeing a lot of duplications of effort. I also question how much these folks talk to blind people to assess needs and priorities. It'd be awesome if all the creativity, money and effort going into these tech projects could be harnessed to teaching more blind kids Braille, either by recruiting more TVI's with good philosophy or coming up with creative ways to get Braille taught efficiently. Either that, or use all that creative drive to develop ways for the blind to access entry-level jobs so we can gain the valuable work experience we need to be competitively employed. We'd lose vibrating shoes and special yoga mats, laser canes and bibs for the blind, but would gain so much more and ultimately be able to put more money back into the nation rather than spending it on expensive gadgets. Best, Arielle On 11/28/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Arielle, > Didn't the laser cane from a couple of years ago have overhanging > object identification? Also, how expensive do you think one of these > canes would be? I'm not sure if it would really be worth it. > Patrick > > On 11/28/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> A few comments: >> 1. I couldn't help but notice some of the pathetic and exaggerated >> statements in the article, such as "They must be dependent on another >> person" (for social interaction). While it is true we can't locate >> silent people, we can, and do, use our ears to find people at times. >> This aspect of blindness is completely ignored here and I am not even >> sure if this invventor is aware that blind people use their ears as a >> means to find people. And, in spite of what the article says, I >> learned at a young age to detect my mother's presence in a room. :) >> 2. I don't quite get it. So in order to locate someone with the >> device, that person has to check in on Foursquare or another such >> venue? I know even my friends who are heavy Foursquare users don't >> check in everywhere they go. So what are the odds of accidentally >> bumping into someone who checked in on Foursquare right where you are? >> Most of the time we need to find people is in small and crowded spaces >> like at meetings or parties, where people may or may not check in. If >> I make plans to meet a friend and they have to go to the trouble of >> checking in for me to find them, it'd be easier for them to just come >> up and say hi to me, no? >> That said, I might be for something that uses face-recognition >> technology to ID people in a small space, like a meeting etc. >> 3. I agree with others that it'd be more practical to implement this >> as an app rather than as part of a cane. Also, I like the idea of >> overhead object identification as cane users currently have little >> defense against overhead objects. But is a mere beep sufficient to >> tell the user exactly what is hanging overhead, how far down it's >> hanging, how big it is, etc.? It reminds me of the infamous "watch >> out" sometimes exclaimed by sighted onlookers, which is very general >> and meaningless. The cane gives tactile feedback so we know what is on >> the ground-at least how big it is, how close it is and where the clear >> path is-so it seems we would need to get similar tactile feedback for >> overhead objects in order for the technology to be effective. >> Otherwise we might as well just use a plain old cane with a GPS app. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From amylsabo at comcast.net Tue Nov 29 09:36:39 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 02:36:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] happy Thanksgiving everyone! In-Reply-To: <4ece879a.a270340a.4461.0cfc@mx.google.com> References: <4ece879a.a270340a.4461.0cfc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <031501ccae7a$65809330$3081b990$@comcast.net> Hello chris, Sorry, for the late thanksgiving notice to you and everyone else here here on this list! I had a pretty good thanksgiving with my family here in Colorado. I did indeed eat a lot of good food too! I didn't go out to the black Friday sales I just stayed at home and did some amazon shopping for my sister. But, on Saturday was fun with hanging out with friends... Again, thanks for the thanksgiving wishes and, I will talk to you soon. Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:06 AM To: NFB NABS list; Blind Talk list; NFBMD list; BrailleNote list; Conversation Station Chatters list; bnu-dev at braillenoteusers.info; NFB History list; skypeenglish at emissives.com Subject: [nabs-l] happy Thanksgiving everyone! Hi everyone, I'd just like to take this opportunity to wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving!!! I hope that you have a wonderful day filled with family, friends, and (how can we forget) good food! I'm at my grandparents' house right now, and am staying here for Thanksgiving dinner. Well, we had to go through the woods to get here; and with the rain and flooding we recently received here in Maryland, we may have needed to go over the river, as it were! * Smile! Yes, that's right... the stream here is over its banks! If anybody on these lists lives in the Maryland or central Pensylvania area, you will certainly know what I'm talking about. Anyway, happy Thanksgiving everyone! Hope it's a great day for all of you! Chris P.S. For anyone who is going out tomorrow morning for the Black Friday deals, good luck! I'm sure the cane or guide dog you take with you will certainly serve you well! "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From amylsabo at comcast.net Tue Nov 29 10:43:37 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 03:43:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] verizon phones In-Reply-To: <4ed148c3.8ab7340a.11cb.fffff32f@mx.google.com> References: <4ed148c3.8ab7340a.11cb.fffff32f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <031901ccae83$c0b3f630$421be290$@comcast.net> Hello chris, This is good to know... I'm going to the Verizon store tomorrow to discuss my account so, I will ask them about it! Since I can send texts but, not be able to read them. Also, I want to be able to read all of the other features and do everything on the phone since I also have mobile speak on it too! Thanks again for the information and, I will talk to you soon. Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l- bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 1:14 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] verizon phones Hi Ashley, The Haven reads all the things you mentioned in your email. The=20 Haven isn't available at all stores, as it's not a smartphone and=20 it's an older phone. One thing about Verizon: when you go to a=20 store, ask the person you're talking to if the store is a=20 corporate or satellite store. I say this because satellite=20 stores can sell you refurbished phones without telling you, which=20 means if something goes wrong, you can't fix it or get a=20 replacement phone without paying for it, as the warranty on that=20 phone has already expired before you got it. So make sure you're=20 going to a corporate store before you buy your phone. Usually=20 the larger stores and the ones at malls are corporates, so that=20 larger store you're planning to go to is a good idea to go to. =20 And once you get your hands on a Haven, if your salesperson=20 doesn't know how to turn the speech on (as most of them don't,)=20 tell the person to do the following: >From the home screen, hit the left soft key to go to the menu. =20 Then scrool down with the arrow keys to settings (it's the sixth=20 item in the menu) and hit the OK button (also known as the center=20 button.) On the screen it takes you to, hit OK on the first=20 option that you come to, which is Sound Settings. From there,=20 scroll down to Voice Commands and hit OK. Once on that screen,=20 you are presented with a bunch of readout options; menu readout,=20 digit readout, alert readout, etc. Scroll down to the last=20 option, which is full readout. Hit the OK button on that. A=20 pop-up screen will then come up that says "Full readout will=20 enable all other readouts." You want to enable all readouts, so=20 hit OK and the speech will be set. Hope this helps! If you have any questions on the Haven, email me=20 offlist at dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The=20 real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that=20 exists. If a blind person has the proper training and=20 opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical=20 nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind,=20 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth=20 in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing=20 assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions=20 which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more=20 information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit=20 us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" References: <4ed148d3.8ab7340a.11cb.fffff341@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <031a01ccae84$0c5c3f70$2514be50$@comcast.net> Hey chris, Well, I have done that many many times but, the situation there is sticky now... and, I don't want to discuss it here. Thanks for the information and, I will talk to you soon. Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 1:14 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Question About Transcribing Recorded Audio Well, just fill out a staff application on audioaccessfm.com! Hey, maybe we listeners will see you on there some day! Chris "The real problem of blindness is not the loss of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of education that exists. If a blind person has the proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere physical nuisance." -- Kenneth Jernigan (President, National Federation of the Blind, 1968-1986 The I C.A.N. Foundation helps blind and visually impaired youth in Maryland say "I can," by empowering them through providing assistive technology and scholarships to camps and conventions which help them be equal with their sighted peers. For more information about the Foundation and to support our work, visit us online at www.icanfoundation.info! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" http://crcs.seas.harvard.edu/postdoctoral-fellowship/ Harvard CRCS » Apply The Harvard Center for Research on Computation and Society (CRCS) solicits applications for its Postdoctoral Fellows and Visiting Scholars Programs for the 2012-2013 academic year. Postdoctoral Fellows are given an annual salary of $60,000 for up to three years to engage in a program of original research, and are provided with additional funds for travel and research support. Visiting Scholars often come with their own support, but CRCS can occasionally offer supplemental funding. We seek researchers who wish to interact with both computer scientists and colleagues from other disciplines, and have a demonstrated interest in connecting their research agenda with societal issues. We are particularly interested in candidates with interests in Privacy and Security or Economics and Computer Science, and those who may be interested in engaging in one of our ongoing projects: A Health Data Marketplace Privacy for Social Science Research Privacy and Security in Targeted Advertising Trustworthy Crowdsourcing Harvard University is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer. We are particularly interested in attracting women and underrepresented groups to participate in CRCS. For further information about the Center and its activities, see http://crcs.seas.harvard.edu/. Application Procedure A cover letter, CV, research statement, copies of up to three research papers, and up to three letters of reference should be sent to: Postdoctoral Fellows and Visiting Scholars Programs Center for Research on Computation and Society crcs-apply at seas.harvard.edu References should send their letters directly, and Visiting Scholar applicants may provide a list of references rather than having letters sent. The application deadline for full consideration is January 15, 2012. From agrima at nbp.org Tue Nov 29 18:35:56 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:35:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New: Diary of a Wimpy Kid in braille Message-ID: <00bf01ccaec5$bbb4a430$331dec90$@org> Diary of a Wimpy Kid By Jeff Kinney In contracted braille (2 vols) and eBraille, $13.95 Ages 9-12 The Wimpy Kid series has sold over 47 million copies in the U.S. alone, and been translated into 30 languages worldwide. Although targeted to reluctant boy readers, it has hooked girls, too, making it the most popular series for that age group, even dusting Harry Potter! Educators and librarians recommend it because it gets kids to read. Find out what the hoopla is about by ordering the first book in the series. For the braille edition, we've fully described each comics-style drawing in the book so braille readers will be able to read the books seamlessly. "In this laugh-out-loud novel, Greg tells his story in a series of short, episodic chapters. Most revolve around the adolescent male curse: the need to do incredibly dumb things because they seem to be a good idea at the time. Yet, unlike some other books about kids of this age, there's no sense of a slightly condescending adult writer behind the main character. Lots of fun throughout." --Booklist review To order or read more about this book online, visit http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/WIMPY1.html ******* Which FREE book will you choose in our Annual Holiday Book Sale? http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/holidaysale.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . From mauidf81 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 20:29:49 2011 From: mauidf81 at gmail.com (Danielle Fernandez) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 14:29:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for some good information about Christmas shopping online. Message-ID: <007701ccaed5$a514c290$ef3e47b0$@gmail.com> Hello to all NABS members I am looking for some advice about accessible websites for Christmas shopping. If anyone has any good ideas and advice I would be very grateful. The things I am looking for is: What websites you do like and why? What are some of the places you feel have good prices? And if you have to pick your top 5 what would they be, and how accessible are they? From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 29 22:58:06 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 16:58:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A cane for the blind to improve social interactions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In and of itself, this cane isn't necessarily bad, and a lot worse products have been on the market supposedly to make the lives of blind individuals "better." My problem is that one, it appears that this woman is sighted, and while I have absolutely no problem with sighted people assisting in the innovation of products for us, I think it best they work with us along the way. The article takes the slant that while a car for the blind is great and all, this cane is better. Translation: Classic example of the sighted world thinking they know best. God forbid we work towards goals that actually could, and would, improve our lives; the sighted still know better because they have secret information we, the blind, don't have so therefore they must step in and provide that information. Now, don't argue the car issue with me because I know we all have varying opinions on it; I am strictly speaking to what is in this article. I have my own pros and cons about the car, but it is what is addressed in this article in terms of what is best for the blind. Smile. Look, I was sighted, so yes, there are things I miss such as recognizing people from across a room, but I don't feel I'm missing out on social interactions, or that my life experience is so devoid of certain things now. Just because I miss something doesn't mean I feel empty or uninformed. It also bothers me when anyone, blind or sighted, suggest a GPS will help us avoid running objects. If using a white cane properly, we don't run into anything. When our cane hits something, it is suppose to because it's protecting our body from hitting and running into the object. Yes, we have those moments when we graze things, or are at just the right angle that we goof up, and of course we all have tapped a person, or slid a cane between a persons legs, but sighted people will bump others, or bags and totes will slam into people. It's not such a problem that we need a device to tell us every little move. And personally, I don't count stairs or how many feet to something, so it's funny to me that a part of this canes "job" is to inform when a person we know is nearby, then give us exact steps to them, then we count the steps until we find the person. Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Now, it would be helpful to avoid hanging objects or things high enough that it's out of a canes reach, but low enough for us to run into with our upper body. We all have done it, and it's the one thing a white cane can't assist us with. My problem is not so much the cane itself, but the reasoning behind it that bothers me. As I said before, while not the worse item to be developed for the blind, it seems to imply that our ability to interact socially is not great, and that we are missing out on this huge experience in life. It's the common idea that we are severely lacking in so many areas that we require special devices and technology so we can "fit in." Social interaction can be difficult for anyone. Sighted people can lack this just as much as blind people can be the life of a party. There's no tip in the scales making one group more socially aware than another. Trust me; I've been sighted and blind so I know about both worlds. I don't think there's anything wrong with a person who might use such a cane. It does have some unique features that would be helpful like how it can warn about head-level objects. It's just the reasoning behind it's development that bothers me. And how, according to this article, it makes it seem as though we don't know what is best for us. I'm tired of people who have never been blind thinking they know what is best, and what my needs are. I'm not lacking in the social department, and though it's a nice luxury to be able to see and approach friends from across a room, we're not missing a chunk of the human experience because we lack this ability. If you lack social interactions, perhaps you need to look at yourself and wonder why. Do you initiate conversation? Do you join gatherings or participate in activities? Do you show up to events and sit by a wall all night? We may not be able to "see" people across a room, but we can approach people, engage in conversations and make friends just like anyone else. We don't need a special device to help us. And by the way, we're becoming way to reliant on technology. Blind and sighted alike, but especially blind people. I know so many of us who refuse to learn and/or use alternative skills because we now have technology to do it for us. If you have poor travel skills and opt to rely on an accessible GPS (which is god-awful expensive) what happens if the GPS breaks, or screws up, or is stolen, or you forget it? Lacking solid travel skills, how do you get around? Hmmm... Shows you that lacking social skills, or at least allegedly, is the worse of our problems. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 2 Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:16:59 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? Arielle From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 29 23:04:52 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 17:04:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A cane for the blind to improve social interaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, I forgot one thing, giggle! This makes it sound as if the cane guides us, but we are the ones manipulating it. We use the technique, or "a" technique, to help us travel; the cane is a tool just like a hammer or wrench or baby stroller- items, tools, to help us do things, but we are the brains operating the tool. Not that it was intentional, but this is how it sounds, to me, in the article; as though we are unable to do something even with a cane so we need technology to tell us what to do. Again, it's the reason behind it, along with the attitudes leading to the reasoning, and not the cane itself that bother me. Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan Message: 2 Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:16:59 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social interactions] Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? Arielle From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 23:15:19 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 16:15:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] A cane for the blind to improve social interactions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amen Bridgit! Arielle On 11/29/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > In and of itself, this cane isn't necessarily bad, and a lot worse > products have been on the market supposedly to make the lives of blind > individuals "better." > > My problem is that one, it appears that this woman is sighted, and while > I have absolutely no problem with sighted people assisting in the > innovation of products for us, I think it best they work with us along > the way. The article takes the slant that while a car for the blind is > great and all, this cane is better. Translation: Classic example of the > sighted world thinking they know best. God forbid we work towards goals > that actually could, and would, improve our lives; the sighted still > know better because they have secret information we, the blind, don't > have so therefore they must step in and provide that information. > > Now, don't argue the car issue with me because I know we all have > varying opinions on it; I am strictly speaking to what is in this > article. I have my own pros and cons about the car, but it is what is > addressed in this article in terms of what is best for the blind. Smile. > > Look, I was sighted, so yes, there are things I miss such as recognizing > people from across a room, but I don't feel I'm missing out on social > interactions, or that my life experience is so devoid of certain things > now. Just because I miss something doesn't mean I feel empty or > uninformed. > > It also bothers me when anyone, blind or sighted, suggest a GPS will > help us avoid running objects. If using a white cane properly, we don't > run into anything. When our cane hits something, it is suppose to > because it's protecting our body from hitting and running into the > object. Yes, we have those moments when we graze things, or are at just > the right angle that we goof up, and of course we all have tapped a > person, or slid a cane between a persons legs, but sighted people will > bump others, or bags and totes will slam into people. It's not such a > problem that we need a device to tell us every little move. And > personally, I don't count stairs or how many feet to something, so it's > funny to me that a part of this canes "job" is to inform when a person > we know is nearby, then give us exact steps to them, then we count the > steps until we find the person. Sorry, but that's ridiculous. > > Now, it would be helpful to avoid hanging objects or things high enough > that it's out of a canes reach, but low enough for us to run into with > our upper body. We all have done it, and it's the one thing a white cane > can't assist us with. > > My problem is not so much the cane itself, but the reasoning behind it > that bothers me. As I said before, while not the worse item to be > developed for the blind, it seems to imply that our ability to interact > socially is not great, and that we are missing out on this huge > experience in life. It's the common idea that we are severely lacking in > so many areas that we require special devices and technology so we can > "fit in." Social interaction can be difficult for anyone. Sighted people > can lack this just as much as blind people can be the life of a party. > There's no tip in the scales making one group more socially aware than > another. Trust me; I've been sighted and blind so I know about both > worlds. > > I don't think there's anything wrong with a person who might use such a > cane. It does have some unique features that would be helpful like how > it can warn about head-level objects. It's just the reasoning behind > it's development that bothers me. And how, according to this article, it > makes it seem as though we don't know what is best for us. I'm tired of > people who have never been blind thinking they know what is best, and > what my needs are. I'm not lacking in the social department, and though > it's a nice luxury to be able to see and approach friends from across a > room, we're not missing a chunk of the human experience because we lack > this ability. If you lack social interactions, perhaps you need to look > at yourself and wonder why. Do you initiate conversation? Do you join > gatherings or participate in activities? Do you show up to events and > sit by a wall all night? We may not be able to "see" people across a > room, but we can approach people, engage in conversations and make > friends just like anyone else. We don't need a special device to help > us. > > And by the way, we're becoming way to reliant on technology. Blind and > sighted alike, but especially blind people. I know so many of us who > refuse to learn and/or use alternative skills because we now have > technology to do it for us. If you have poor travel skills and opt to > rely on an accessible GPS (which is god-awful expensive) what happens if > the GPS breaks, or screws up, or is stolen, or you forget it? Lacking > solid travel skills, how do you get around? Hmmm... Shows you that > lacking social skills, or at least allegedly, is the worse of our > problems. > > Sincerely, > Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter > Read my blog at: > http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ > > "History is not what happened; history is what was written down." > The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:16:59 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [LCA] a cane for the blind improves social > interactions] > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Curious what y'all think of this. Would anyone actually use it? Arielle > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 02:11:36 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:11:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting Feedback from Sighted People Message-ID: Hi Tara, A few comments: -- I agree with you, overall, that information is good, and we can decide what we want to do with it. It is also true that some congenitally blind people genuinely do not understand the nuances of sight and what others can or cannot see. After all, if we lived on an alien planet where everyone else could mind-read or predict the future except us, we would have no idea how those powers worked without it being explained to us. In many ways I think being born blind is very similar to this kind of alien situation. But anyway, while I think these kinds of knowledge gaps should be corrected, I also still think that sometimes when blind people "misbehave" as it were, it's not out of ignorance or naivete but for other reasons like laziness or simply not caring about being seen. There are plenty of sighted people who don't clean up after their pet dogs, for example, so what's to stop a blind person who is so inclined from walking away thinking they won't get in trouble, or quickly picking a wedgie hoping not to get caught? In other words, our undesirable acts aren't always due to blindness. -- While I think a rehab class like what you mentioned is a good idea in theory, I doubt that most human beings would have the emotional stamina to accept that kind of blunt feedback without getting seriously depressed or defensive. I would especially worry about encouraging parents to do this with their blind kids. Of course they should provide information and feedback, but there's a fine balance between giving helpful suggestions for improvement and making the child feel inadequate, particularly if the child knows that other children aren't getting the same kinds of feedback. Thoughts? Arielle From dandrews at visi.com Wed Nov 30 02:24:09 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:24:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [BANA-Announce] Update Information on Tactile Graphics Guidelines Message-ID: >From: >To: >Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:51:42 +0000 >Subject: [BANA-Announce] Update Information on Tactile Graphics Guidelines > > >Subject: Updated and Corrected Web Version of Tactile Graphics >Guidelines and Standards > > > >The November 2011 HTML Web Version of Guidelines and Standards for >Tactile Graphics, 2010, an update to the July 2011 Web Version, is >now available on the BANA website at >http://www.brailleauthority.org/tg/index.html. > > > > >This update contains an expanded Appendix D, titled "Production and >Duplication Methods," and also reflects several clarifications and >corrections to the initial web version. > > > >The web version is searchable using standard text search commands. >It can be downloaded, but is not formatted for printing. BANA will >soon post a printable, downloadable .pdf version. Hardcopy print and >braille editions as well as the supplement of tactile graphic >examples will be produced for sale by the American Printing House >for the Blind. > > > >Questions can be submitted to the BANA Tactile Graphics Technical >Committee at >http://www.brailleauthority.org/contact/tg/contact-tg.html. > From dandrews at visi.com Wed Nov 30 02:37:57 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:37:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: NBP-Announce: New: Diary of a Wimpy Kid in braille Message-ID: > >Diary of a Wimpy Kid >By Jeff Kinney >In contracted braille (2 vols) and eBraille, $13.95 >Ages 9-12 > >The Wimpy Kid series has sold over 47 million copies in the U.S. >alone, and been translated into 30 languages worldwide. Although >targeted to reluctant boy readers, it has hooked girls, too, making >it the most popular series for that age group, even dusting Harry >Potter! Educators and librarians recommend it because it gets >kids to read. Find out what the hoopla is about by ordering the >first book in the series. > >For the braille edition, we've fully described each comics-style drawing in >the book so braille readers will be able to read the books seamlessly. > >"In this laugh-out-loud novel, Greg tells his story in a series of short, >episodic chapters. Most revolve around the adolescent male curse: the need >to do incredibly dumb things because they seem to be a good idea at the time. >Yet, unlike some other books about kids of this age, there's no sense of a >slightly condescending adult writer behind the main character. >Lots of fun throughout." --Booklist review >To order or read more about this book online, visit >http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/WIMPY1.html > > >******* >Which FREE book will you choose in our Annual Holiday Book Sale? >http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/holidaysale.html > > >****** >To order any books, send payment to: >NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 >Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 >ext 520. Or order any of our books online at >http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . > > > >_______________________________________________ >Nbp mailing list >Nbp at nbp.org > >PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message >and your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org . > >Visit us at http://www.nbp.org From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 30 03:12:59 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 22:12:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting Feedback from Sighted People Message-ID: e9a4ea92-fc02-475d-8057-8cad2bcd67a8@samobile.net Arielle, You won't get much argumet from me. I think you're right to point out that sighted people often attempt to get away with stuff as well and don't often receive much specific criticism for it. Having received the kind of blunt feedback you're mentioning (much of it was honestly not necessary and didn't have anything to do with mannerisms, but social skills generally), I can honestly say that one can develop a strong sense of inadequacy; I still face it today. I was told that, because I'm blind, I can't see others' faces and so have no social skills. Anything I ever did was attributed in this way, even those dumb things we all do as kids or teenagers. After hearing if from parents and teachers for about six years or more, I started to doubt myself and feel pretty bad about myself. The funny thing is that my critics had very poor social skills themselves (looking back). As a direct result, I still tend to take criticism far too personally; I automatically assume that if something's wrong socially speaking, it must have been my fault. If anyone ever asks for a word in private with me (even if I'm about to be privately praised for something), my heartrate and stress level sky rockets. Well, it's not as bad now as it used to be, but I can still feel it. Perhaps that's why I'm a big advocate of acceptance first as a starting point for growth in the area of social development. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi Tara, > A few comments: > -- I agree with you, overall, that information is good, and we can > decide what we want to do with it. It is also true that some > congenitally blind people genuinely do not understand the nuances of > sight and what others can or cannot see. After all, if we lived on an > alien planet where everyone else could mind-read or predict the future > except us, we would have no idea how those powers worked without it > being explained to us. In many ways I think being born blind is very > similar to this kind of alien situation. But anyway, while I think > these kinds of knowledge gaps should be corrected, I also still think > that sometimes when blind people "misbehave" as it were, it's not out > of ignorance or naivete but for other reasons like laziness or simply > not caring about being seen. There are plenty of sighted people who > don't clean up after their pet dogs, for example, so what's to stop a > blind person who is so inclined from walking away thinking they won't > get in trouble, or quickly picking a wedgie hoping not to get caught? > In other words, our undesirable acts aren't always due to blindness. > -- While I think a rehab class like what you mentioned is a good idea > in theory, I doubt that most human beings would have the emotional > stamina to accept that kind of blunt feedback without getting > seriously depressed or defensive. I would especially worry about > encouraging parents to do this with their blind kids. Of course they > should provide information and feedback, but there's a fine balance > between giving helpful suggestions for improvement and making the > child feel inadequate, particularly if the child knows that other > children aren't getting the same kinds of feedback. Thoughts? > Arielle > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 03:28:23 2011 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:28:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for some good information about Christmas shopping online. In-Reply-To: <007701ccaed5$a514c290$ef3e47b0$@gmail.com> References: <007701ccaed5$a514c290$ef3e47b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Danielle, I mainly use www.amazon.com They have a slimmed-down accessible version, www.amazon.com/access but the regular site is still pretty accessible. Best, Arielle On 11/29/11, Danielle Fernandez wrote: > Hello to all NABS members I am looking for some advice about accessible > websites for Christmas shopping. If anyone has any good ideas and advice I > would be very grateful. > The things I am looking for is: > What websites you do like and why? > What are some of the places you feel have good prices? > And if you have to pick your top 5 what would they be, and how accessible > are they? > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From leanicole1988 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 04:43:06 2011 From: leanicole1988 at gmail.com (Lea williams) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 23:43:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for some good information about Christmas shopping online. In-Reply-To: References: <007701ccaed5$a514c290$ef3e47b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey I use amazon too. I like to use them because in most cases they are the cheepest, but they also have great descriptions of the products in the custermer reviews. People will talk a lot about the products on the reviews and not so much on other websites. On 11/29/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Danielle, > I mainly use > www.amazon.com > They have a slimmed-down accessible version, > www.amazon.com/access > but the regular site is still pretty accessible. > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/29/11, Danielle Fernandez wrote: >> Hello to all NABS members I am looking for some advice about accessible >> websites for Christmas shopping. If anyone has any good ideas and advice I >> would be very grateful. >> The things I am looking for is: >> What websites you do like and why? >> What are some of the places you feel have good prices? >> And if you have to pick your top 5 what would they be, and how accessible >> are they? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leanicole1988%40gmail.com > -- Lea Williams Phone; 704-732-4470 Skipe; Lea.williams738 Facebook http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001775297080 From amylsabo at comcast.net Wed Nov 30 05:01:42 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 22:01:42 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for some good information about Christmas shopping online. In-Reply-To: <007701ccaed5$a514c290$ef3e47b0$@gmail.com> References: <007701ccaed5$a514c290$ef3e47b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a201ccaf1d$2735c750$75a155f0$@comcast.net> Hello Danielle, As to finding good buys on Christmas shopping online it pertains to what you are shopping for... like for music I use amazon.com or itunes. As for clothes I use my favorite clothing sites like lane Bryant.com or gap.com. but, besides these there is also oldnavy.com which is owned by the gap. As for body products and other personal items I shop at bathandbodyworks.com for these needs. As for these web sites being accessible with jfw they certainly are... anyway, good luck with your cybershopping for Christmas! Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle Fernandez Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:30 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for some good information about Christmas shopping online. Hello to all NABS members I am looking for some advice about accessible websites for Christmas shopping. If anyone has any good ideas and advice I would be very grateful. The things I am looking for is: What websites you do like and why? What are some of the places you feel have good prices? And if you have to pick your top 5 what would they be, and how accessible are they? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40co mcast.net From dandrews at visi.com Wed Nov 30 21:58:29 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:58:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Job vacancies - VA Department f/t Blind and Vision Impaired Message-ID: >From: Robinson, Joann (DRS) >Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:32 PM > >Subject: Job vacancies - VA Department f/t Blind and Vision Impaired > >Good afternoon! > >The below listed positions may be accessed directly in the >Recruitment Management System (RMS) by clicking on the Quicklink. If >you already have your application established in the RMS, applying >for the position will be very streamlined and take only a few >minutes. If you have not yet completed your online application in >the RMS, you may visit >http://jobs.agencies.virginia.gov >to begin the process or simply click on the Quicklink below. While >the system will not allow you to apply until you have established >your application, you will be able to access the application through >this site. > >Please be aware that we ONLY accept fully completed RMS online >applications (required) and applications only are accepted for >advertised vacancies. You may attach cover letters and resumes and >in some cases are required to submit college or university >transcripts or professional certifications (see job posting for >instructions). These may be scanned and attached to your online >applications, faxed, or mailed to the appropriate recruiting >contact. Please review the posting for any special requirements or >instructions. > >Agency: Virginia Department for the Blind and Vision Impaired > >Job Title: Circulation Assistant > >Location: Henrico (Richmond area) > >Position #: 00018 > >Closing Date: 12/7/2011 > >Quicklink: >http://jobs.agencies.virginia.gov/applicants/Central?quickFind=141167 > >Agency: Virginia Department for the Blind and Vision Impaired > >Job Title: Information Technology Specialist I > >Location: Henrico (Richmond area) > >Position #: 00078 > >Closing Date: 12/09/2011 > >Quicklink: >http://jobs.agencies.virginia.gov/applicants/Central?quickFind=140249 > >Agency: Virginia Department for the Blind and Vision Impaired > >Job Title: Vocational Rehabilitation Counselor > >Location: Henrico (Richmond area) > >Position #: 00147 > >Closing Date: Open Until Filled > >Quicklink: >http://jobs.agencies.virginia.gov/applicants/Central?quickFind=140939 > >Agency: Virginia Department for the Blind and Vision Impaired > >Job Title: Vocational Rehabilitation Counselor > >Location: Norfolk > >Position #: 00213 > >Closing Date: Open Until Filled > >Quicklink: >http://jobs.agencies.virginia.gov/applicants/Central?quickFind=140248 > >Agency: Virginia Department for the Blind and Vision Impaired > >Job Title: Education Coordinator > >Location: Fairfax > >Position #: 00126 > >Closing Date: Open Until Filled > >Quicklink: >http://jobs.agencies.virginia.gov/applicants/Central?quickFind=136027 > >Agency: Virginia Department for the Blind and Vision Impaired > >Job Title: Business Enterprises Manager > >Location: Henrico (Richmond area) > >Position #: 00089 > >Closing Date: Open Until Filled > >Quicklink: >http://jobs.agencies.virginia.gov/applicants/Central?quickFind=140940 > >Agency: Virginia Rehabilitation Center for the Blind and >Vision Impaired > >Job Title: Assistant Director for Instruction > >Location: Henrico (Richmond area) > >Position #: 00026 > >Closing Date: Open Until Filled > >Quicklink: >http://jobs.agencies.virginia.gov/applicants/Central?quickFind=140250 > > >Joann Robinson, SPHR > >HR Consultant > >Human Resources > >8004 Franklin Farms Drive > >Richmond, VA 23229 > >804-662-7175 > >804-662-7662 fax > >Joann.Robinson at drs.virginia.gov > >www.vdbvi.org From dandrews at visi.com Wed Nov 30 22:20:00 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 16:20:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] eBay Success Message-ID: >Mark Riccobono has asked me to circulate this note -- as it may be >help, or inspiration to people. David Andrews > >---------- >From: Rick Willison [mailto:rick at tjmi.net] >Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:57 AM >Subject: Ebay > > > >Dear NFB Members, > >I wanted to encourage each of you who showed interest and signed up >to get going on eBay to take time to do so now. This is the perfect >time of year to begin selling or start selling again on eBay. With >over 95 million people in 39 countries getting ready for the >Christmas Season. There are a lot of gifts to be purchased. A >large majority of those gifts will be bought online. A good deal of >those transactions will take place on eBay. This is your >opportunity to be a part of a great thing. > >As an avid eBayer, I was able to sell $8800 in products in >November. December promises to be even better. I want to encourage >each of you to get signed up with a username and password. Also, >get your PayPal account set up so you can begin to buy and sell on >eBay. It is all FREE! Remember, even your first 50 auctions each >month are FREE to list. Ebay only takes fees when something sells. > > > >It is easy, more accessible than ever, and fun. Don't miss out on >this opportunity. If you have any problems or questions, please >e-mail me at rick at tjmi.net. I am here to help. > > >You can do this! Get started today! If you have already >started--Keep going. There is money to be made and saved on eBay! > > > >Have a wonderful Holiday Season. Do great things! > >Sincerely, > >Rick Willison > >NFB/eBay Pilot Program