[nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups

[Joshua Lester]

Julie:
You make some great points.
As a musician, myself, I may need assistance to the stage, if I
haven't practiced the route before the concert.
As a Gospel artist, that travels alot, I don't have the time to learn
the route to and from the platform.
If it's a place I've frequently gone to, I can make it where I need to go.
When there's an instance, where I need sighted assistance, I show the
guide how to do it correctly, and it's very successful.
Some people up north don't pay any attention, but in the South where I
live, it's different.
I know, because I went through several disasters with guides, in the
Indianapolis area.
Blessings, Joshua

On 11/7/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Jedi and everyone.
>
> I've conditioned my dog to stop by beginning to stop myself when
> people grab me.  Actually, I didn't need to condition her for when
> people grabe my left(dog) arm.  She really does not like that.  But
> now we're working on stopping when people grab my right arm as well.
> Generally my dog will just ignore people who grab my right arm, but
> this, as some of you might know, will just make the person tug harder
> in the direction they want you to go.
>
> About the smile: I think part of it is the fact that I am a rather
> smiley person.  The other (and bigger) part of it is that I don't
> think we will get anywhere by being grumpy about it.  Now if someone
> keeps grabbing me or doing other things even though I have told them
> repeatedly not to, that is a different story.  I will get quite
> agrivated, but you can be firm, serious, and calmly polite all at
> once.
>
> I know there are different views on this.  Why should we be smiley and
> happy when someone is truely being annoying to us?  I don't think
> there is a law that says you have to be nice about it, but I believe
> that people are more likely to listen to me if I talk to them like a
> friend or an equal instead of their enemy just as I am more likely to
> listen to someone tell me about their life if they are telling me
> calmly how it is different from mine instead of being harsh and rude.
>
> I think I was just so surprised that she didn't listen to me that the
> words didn't even come.  I'm so used to my other accompanist, who has
> learned that I do not need to be guided on the stage.  I really do
> think that some sighted people take it as a matter of course that we
> need help, so they just help and don't even think twice about it.
> They are trained by the media or whatever that we need help with the
> various things we do, so it doesn't enter their mind that we might not
> want it or need it.  This is not an excuse, but we need to understand
> this when dealing with them.  We need to talk to them under the
> impression that they can and are willing to learn, that is, if we want
> to teach them.  Of course I don't think every day should be an
> educational day on the abilities of the blind.  Lol  We have lives
> too.
>
>
>
> On 11/7/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> That's exactly what i'm interested in. I'm getting this book on
>> encounter groups in the next week or two. I'll let you know how it goes
>> as I read it.
>>
>> Respectfully Submitted
>>
>> Original message:
>>> I wonder if a society goes through different stages of "acceptance"
>>> for a minority group within that society. And if so, whether "you're
>>> pretty smart for a blind person" is one of those stages, just like in
>>> some other countries a few decades ago, people did make comments such
>>> as "you are pretty smart for a women", but now these countries have
>>> much better gender equity. The optimistic news is that advancements
>>> made by the other minority groups show that indeed this change can
>>> happen.  The question is what are these stages, and what different
>>> strategies and tactics did other minority groups deploy at different
>>> stages to moved the society forward?  Since Arielle used women as one
>>> of the comparison example, I should mention that the World Economic
>>> Forum just issued its flatest Global Gender Gap Ranking Report last
>>> week. The world ranking is a de facto illustration of different stages
>>> of gender equity in different countries, and perhaps the blind
>>> community can compare ourselves to these countries and see what stage
>>> we are at now, and what are some of the best practices women in those
>>> countries are using to move their societies to the next stage of
>>> acceptance and inclusion, as well as countries where the wrong tactics
>>> were used and hence are still stuck at the same stages for a decade.
>>
>>> On 11/7/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi all.
>>
>>>> I know this was mentioned a bit in previous messages, but I think the
>>>> big difference is the fact that sighted people believe that we are
>>>> always in need of help.  They take it as a matter of course that we
>>>> are helpless and can't do whatever it is by ourselves.  Now I am
>>>> speaking generally; I do not mean all sighted people.
>>
>>>> I don't believe that other minority groups deal with this problem.
>>>> White people don't try to help African Americans with simple tasks
>>>> without asking them if they need it as sighted people often do to the
>>>> blind.  When blind people refuse help or get annoyed when they are
>>>> treated differently, then the sighted people are offended when the
>>>> blind speak and advocate for themselves.
>>
>>>> I actually think that educating complete strangers is easier than
>>>> educating people I know.  I have been called angry and prideful
>>>> because I refuse to allow people to grab my arm and propell me along,
>>>> and I get very frustrated with people who will not talk to me in favor
>>>> of speaking to my sighted friends.  It was said to me by a friend that
>>>> I should just deal with it and accept the help because it is easier
>>>> that way.  I don't even know if this person even understood how
>>>> offensive that comment was to me.
>>
>>>> When I am in the middle of a situation where in I have to educate
>>>> someone, I try to handle it with firm politeness.  It helps to keep a
>>>> smile in place and explain it as though these things happen all the
>>>> time, which they do.  You can complain and rant to your friends later.
>>>>  :)
>>
>>>> The other problem is that there really is a time and a place for
>>>> advocacy and education.  I am a performer, so I must walk on stage.  I
>>>> prefer to do this independently.  I am a singer, and I work with an
>>>> accompanist.  We have been working together for about five years.  She
>>>> knows that I will walk on stage on my own.  This weekend at a singing
>>>> competition I had to work with another accompanist.  This one thought
>>>> it necessary to grab my arm and stop me at my place in front of the
>>>> piano and try to turn me around to face the audience.  I was stuck.  I
>>>> could not give her a speach then and there of course, but I was afraid
>>>> that it would look bad that she was litterally trying to turn me
>>>> around like I didn't know which way to face on my own.
>>
>>>> Unfortunately, even when I tried to explain it to her later, she did
>>>> not understand.  I have also taught my guide dog to stop when people
>>>> grab my arm.  This is actually quite fun.  The person trying to pull
>>>> me along will get annoyed and inquire as to why I am not moving.  When
>>>> I explain calmly that my dog stops when people try to guide me because
>>>> it is her job to guide me, and she does not need to compete with
>>>> others, they understand and don't get too offended.
>>
>>>> This is a very interesting thread, and I've been enjoying reading
>>>> about all your thoughts and experiences.
>>
>>>> On 11/6/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>>> Chris,
>>
>>>>> People of Color have had to deal with misconceptions about their
>>>>> capabilities and still do. For along time, there was a psychological
>>>>> science devoted to explaining how Black people are mentally inferior to
>>>>> White people in order to justify segregation and the prejudice that
>>>>> African Americans face in schools. Lots of White people still think
>>>>> that Blacks are more prone to violence and stealing than Whites. And
>>>>> don't get me started on GLBT: you'd be horrified to learn what they go
>>>>> through. The point is that discrimination and prejudice, as well as
>>>>> misconceptions about their cabilities and characteristics, are alive
>>>>> and well; people have just gotten a lot better at hiding their negative
>>>>> judgments. And as to the disabled populus, I think the reason why
>>>>> people don't hide their prejudices is because they don't associate that
>>>>> kind of prejudice with hatred, a certainly undesireable attitude
>>>>> socially speaking.
>>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Hi Arielle,
>>
>>>>>> You raise some good points here, and I hope this starts a good
>>>>>> discussion; one that I believe is good to have.  In my opinion,
>>>>>> the difference between the public's stereotyping and
>>>>>> discrimination of blind people and that of other minority groups
>>>>>> is this: blind people have to deal with more misconceptions about
>>>>>> us.  In other words, there are still widely-held misconceptions
>>>>>> about us and what we can and cannot do, which are held by the
>>>>>> public as being true.  This, of course, is a generalisation; not
>>>>>> all of the public believes these misconceptions to be true,
>>>>>> especially those members of the public who work directly with us
>>>>>> or are friends or relatives of a blind person; those who know
>>>>>> from experience what blind people can do.  It seems to me that
>>>>>> these misconceptions are passed down through the generations;
>>>>>> from one generation to their children, then passed on to those
>>>>>> children's children, then to their children, and to their
>>>>>> children, and so on.  When these beliefs are taught for a long
>>>>>> time and are handed down through the generations, it becomes
>>>>>> easier for people to believe them and they mostly do.  These
>>>>>> misconceptions, which are widely believed by a vast majority of
>>>>>> the public, are the beliefs from which the stereotyping and
>>>>>> discrimination stem.  Then, the misconceptions of the public
>>>>>> directly effect us, as we then become the object of
>>>>>> discrimination and stereotypes.  To me, other minority groups
>>>>>> don't have this problem.  Take the African-Americans for example.
>>>>>> Are there any widely-held misconceptions about what they can do
>>>>>> and how successful they can be? No! Are there any doubts as to
>>>>>> their ability to compete on terms of equality with their white
>>>>>> piers? No! Are their any questions about their ability to be
>>>>>> employed? No! Even during the segregation era, this group was not
>>>>>> discriminated against for the reason that there were
>>>>>> misconceptions held by the white that they couldn't be on terms
>>>>>> of equality with everybody else in society, but for the simple
>>>>>> reason that they were different! During this time, I think the
>>>>>> majority, the white population, forgot the undisputed fact that
>>>>>> all people are different, and that having a different skin color
>>>>>> doesn't justify looking down on a person.  The beliefs about
>>>>>> blind people which make people discriminate against us are of a
>>>>>> different character than the beliefs which make people
>>>>>> discriminate against other minorities.  The difference is that
>>>>>> the beliefs about blindness which cause discrimination against us
>>>>>> to happen are stemmed from a lack of education about the truth
>>>>>> about blindness, whereas the beliefs which make people
>>>>>> discriminate against other minorities (I'm talking about
>>>>>> minorities based on skin color, religion, political beliefs,
>>>>>> sexual orientation, etc.) are just based on relatively untrue
>>>>>> stereotypes and thoughts.  Therefore, people who might stereotype
>>>>>> or discriminate against us wouldn't tolerate discrimination based
>>>>>> on race, religion, etc, because the times have changed and the
>>>>>> misconceptions and discrimination have no justification
>>>>>> whatsoever, nor are even legal, in the case of outright
>>>>>> discrimination.  However, they would stereotype about us because
>>>>>> they don't have the education about blindness to see the fact
>>>>>> that these stereotypes aren't justified either.  For this reason,
>>>>>> we have organizations such as the Federation to educate and
>>>>>> advocate.  We have a special responsibility, in my opinion, that
>>>>>> many other minority groups don't have; to educate the public.  We
>>>>>> have to make sure everybody knows what blind people really can do
>>>>>> and prove that we can compete on terms of equality with our
>>>>>> sighted piers.  Other minority groups have proven this already,
>>>>>> and the little discrimination that still exists is generally
>>>>>> thought to be ridiculous and baseless.  However, the public
>>>>>> doesn't think of discrimination against the blind that way,
>>>>>> simply because they don't think it's discrimination! They're OK
>>>>>> with it, because they aren't educated.  So, it is our job to
>>>>>> educate them! I should also say that we also need to educate by
>>>>>> example, meaning that we must not discriminate or stereotype
>>>>>> against other people.  Those are my thoughts.
>>
>>>>>> Chris
>>
>>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:09:24 -0600
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness vs.  Other Minority Groups
>>
>>>>>> Warning-this topic has the potential to start a heated debate,
>>>>>> but I
>>>>>> also think it is an interesting and important topic for us as
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> people to think about.
>>>>>> Lately I have been thinking a lot about how the problems faced by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> blind are similar to or different from those faced by other
>>>>>> minority
>>>>>> groups in this country historically and in the present.  More
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> that, I have been thinking about how the general public sees us
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>> group in comparison to how they view other minority groups.  It
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> struck me that oftentimes members of the general public treat us
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> discriminatory ways or stereotype us without even considering
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> this kind of treatment resembles stereotyping and discrimination
>>>>>> against other minority groups.
>>>>>> Let me give a concrete example.  In his book Freedom for the
>>>>>> Blind, Jim
>>>>>> Omvig writes of a time when he was directing a training center
>>>>>> and a
>>>>>> female staff member at the center commented, "You do your job so
>>>>>> well,
>>>>>> sometimes I forget you're blind!" Seeing the teachable moment,
>>>>>> Mr.
>>>>>> Omvig brought up this incident to his students during a
>>>>>> philosophy
>>>>>> class, and to illustrate his point he said to the woman, "You are
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> a good teacher, sometimes I forget you're a woman!" From what I
>>>>>> recall, the staff member got a bit upset and insisted that "no,
>>>>>> what I
>>>>>> said about you being blind was very different from what you said
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> my being a woman.  I was just trying to give you a compliment!"
>>>>>> Now, as blind people most of us understand the problem with her
>>>>>> comment-the implication that being blind must not be very good,
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> someone who does a good job isn't like other blind people.  To me
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> sounds like the same problem as making the analogous comment to a
>>>>>> woman-but she didn't see it that way.  Why not? Is there a
>>>>>> difference
>>>>>> here?
>>>>>> I have often been quite frustrated when people I know and
>>>>>> trust-friends or family members, who have very liberal views
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> race, would never utter a racial slur or support discrimination
>>>>>> against racial minorities, women, gays etc.  who nonetheless have
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> qualms about saying negative things about blindness.  Like saying
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> people are all worse than the sighted at something, or that blind
>>>>>> people are more dependent or less successful than the sighted,
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>> They will sometimes say these things to my face and don't
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> why I don't like to hear these things.  Sometimes family members
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> make comments comparing me favorably to other blind people.  They
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> they are giving me compliments, and fail to understand that I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> want to hear negative things spoken about the blind as a
>>>>>> collective.
>>>>>> Yet these same people would never tell an African American that
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are "smart for a black person" etc.  I remember during the
>>>>>> protests
>>>>>> against the Blindness film in 2008, I was perplexed by how many
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> just didn't get it, and didn't see what harm the film could
>>>>>> do-and yet
>>>>>> an analogous film where everyone developed black skin or female
>>>>>> anatomy with such dire consequences would never be accepted in
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> modern society.  And finally, in my research, I have observed
>>>>>> that the
>>>>>> college students in my experiments have no problem saying on a
>>>>>> survey
>>>>>> that the blind are much less competent than the sighted, yet
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> never say such things directly about another minority group-in
>>>>>> fact,
>>>>>> lots of fancy indirect measures have been developed to tap those
>>>>>> attitudes because people nowadays are so unwilling to admit their
>>>>>> prejudices, unless it's toward the blind.
>>>>>> So, what's up? Are stereotypes about the blind somehow more
>>>>>> accurate
>>>>>> than stereotypes about ethnic minorities? Is discrimination
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> the blind somehow more justified? Or is it just that we are such
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> small group that we haven't developed the same history, had the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> scale of civil rights activism, etc.  to raise people's
>>>>>> awareness? Do
>>>>>> you guys think we deserve the same considerations as other
>>>>>> minorities
>>>>>> in this country? If not, am I missing something? If so, how do we
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> members of the public to see this?
>>>>>> Also, as an aside, I'm curious to hear from those of you who are
>>>>>> "dual
>>>>>> minorities" being both blind and a member of a minority group in
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> country (ethnicity-wise, or a different group like GLBT, uncommon
>>>>>> religious beliefs etc.) How do you think your two identities are
>>>>>> similar? Different? Do you feel they interact with one another?
>>>>>> I look forward to the discussion.
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Arielle
>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau
>>>>>> m%40gmail.com
>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Julie McG
>>>>  Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>
>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>>> life."
>>>> John 3:16
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Julie McG
>  Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>