[nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups

[Marc Workman]

I'll respond to a few points to help clarify my earlier posts.

Firstly, I have RP.  It's an aggressive form, but I was able, probably often foolishly, to navigate without a cane until my early twenties.  Though I'm not particularly expressive, I find it easy to make eye contact, I communicate with my hands, I express feelings with my body, and I don't exhibit so called blindisms.  I am regularly told that I don't look blind, which I take not as a complement to me but as an insult to blind people.  So on the one hand, I could be accused of being an outsider that hasn't really had to deal with these issues, but on the other hand, my position isn't motivated by my own inability to look and act like a sighted person.

Ashley wrote,
Maybe if you could see them or someone described those strange behaviors called blindisms, you'd feel different.

I have seen them, and I also remember the negative reaction I had to them, but that doesn't change how I feel now.

Ashley wrote,
Particularly for women, learning to be graceful, confident, show expression and have manners goes a long way.

I'm glad you brought up women because I think the sort of things I'm getting at relate to issues concerning standards of beauty.  If we lived in the kind of world I'm suggesting, not only would women not be expected to dress, walk, talk, and act in ways that men find appealing or that suit our interests, but there would also be far fewer women suffering from eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia.  There would be far fewer women receiving plastic surgery and far fewer women hating their bodies and themselves.  Of course this doesn't only apply to women, but I think the pressures around beauty are much more apparent for women, as you suggest, Ashley.

Ashley wrote,
Your comparing apples and oranges. Blind people can act more graceful, have expression, wear nice clothes, be competent with the alternative skills, and more showing that we can fit in. A minority like being say black cannot be changed.

While it's true that one cannot currently very easily go from black to white, the things I mentioned skin bleaching, hair straightening, eyelid surgery, nose jobs, happened in the past and are still happening today, and these are all aimed at changing appearance to make it conform with dominant standards of beauty, which are, and this is not coincidental, white standards of beauty.  Secondly, minorities cannot easily change appearance, but I wasn't only talking about appearance.  Things like dress, gate, and diction were also mentioned.  So what we wear, how we walk, and the words we use are influenced by the dominant culture.  There are language classes aimed at reducing southern accents because a southern accent is often wrongly associated with stupidity.  So I'm not just talking about appearance.  Lastly, what you say seems to me to imply that if African Americans could change their appearance to look white, and if this were happening regularly, there would be nothing wrong with this.  I just don't agree with that.

Ashley wrote,
There is someone in our nfb chapter who looks gross; I see him do this as I have tunnel vision. He moves his head up/down, side/side like an amimal, rocks his head, opens his moutth, making weird contortions, picks his nose, and just doesn't look good.

I'm not suggesting that anything goes.  There are issues of hygiene that have to do with health and should be respected.  Picking one's nose and failing to bathe or wash one's clothes can lead to the increased likelihood of spreading germs and disease, and so such behaviours ought to be discouraged.  I suspect there are also risks with poking one's eyes, and so it makes sense to discourage this as well.  My issue is with pressuring people to abandon behaviours and the like that are irrelevant.  Rocking, shaking one's head, not making eye contact, not talking with one's hands, these things do not inherently limit or obstruct communication.  They are only even noticed because they are not the sort of things most people do.  There are cultures, though, where eye contact is a sign of aggression and considered inappropriate.  I'm sure members of these cultures still manage to communicate effectively.  So there are some behaviours that should be discouraged whether a person is blind or sighted, but the majority are irrelevant, and it is pressuring blind people to abandon these ones that I think is problematic.

Arielle andMark with a K,
No direct quote, but I take the main thrust to be that we really have no choice but to try to look and act like sighted people look and act.  Not conforming is very likely to lead to fewer opportunities and probably more isolation, at least in the world that we live in.

I feel the force of this point, and I don't disagree.  As I said at the outset, I look and act like sighted people myself.  I suppose my point is an ethical one.  It may be that, as a matter of necessity, we have to pressure blind people to suppress certain naturally occurring behaviours and to adopt behaviours that some will find awkward, but the thing's being necessary doesn't make it right.  I believe it is wrong that we have to do this.  I think a society where this wasn't necessary would be a better one.  And I think it's useful to call it out as wrong even if we feel we have no choice but to go along with it.

Regards,

Marc
On 2011-11-18, at 5:33 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

> Hi Mark,
> First of all, your view makes a lot of intuitive sense to me. I like
> it, and find it refreshing. It is radical, and most members of the
> blind community will probably not agree with it, but it is worth some
> consideration. I can definitely relate to the frustration of being
> expected to conform to a set of nonverbal customs shared by the
> sighted. I agree that expecting us to put forth extra effort to adopt
> the customs of the sighted is an unfair burden.
> However, it is worth noting that just in terms of sheer numbers, the
> blind is much smaller than other minority groups, such as racial
> groups. I have been told that only .1% or so of the U.S. population is
> legally blind. Because of our small numbers, it is difficult if not
> impossible for the blind to avoid judgment or evaluation by the
> sighted, or even for us to set up a viable shared culture. The sighted
> still control access to resources, such as jobs, educational
> opportunities etc. Part of this is due to unjust power hierarchies,
> but much of it is due to sheer numbers, which is not something we can
> change. So, as a matter of pragmatics of survival, conformity is often
> the best way. In other words, if we are applying for jobs, the vast
> majority of employers out there will be sighted and will have certain
> expectations about how their employees dress and look, so it is in our
> best interest to try to meet these expectations.
> I also agree with you that "isms" such as rocking are not inherently
> wrong or harmful. Again, this is an unpopular view among our
> community, but I think it has merit. The only reason that these "isms"
> cause us grief is because they stand out and differ from the means of
> nonverbal expression shared by the sighted majority. Just to share a
> brief anecdote: When my (sighted) boyfriend and I first started
> dating, the first time we had a chat while I had my arm around him, he
> was gesturing with his hands while talking and I thought it was weird.
> It took me a little getting used to because that's not how I
> communicate, and I had never been intimate with a sighted person
> before and paid that much attention to their hand movements. Of course
> I got over this, but this was my initial reaction. Similarly, many of
> us get weirded out by rocking and the like, in part because these
> behaviors aren't shared by the sighted public, and also because they
> tend to remind people of cognitive disorders such as autism. People
> who have difficulty imitating the body movements of others because of
> brain disorders, like autism, also display behaviors like rocking etc.
> So when people see us with "isms" they associate us with mental
> disability (and many blind people do too, because they have learned
> these associations as well). Unfortunately, blindisms have a meaning
> beyond kinky hair or other features distinctive of certain racial
> groups. I don't think it's right, but that is what it is.
> I don't think there's an easy solution to this problem, but in
> general, I think we need to evaluate how we act in different
> situations and match our behaviors to those situations. In situations
> where we are being evaluated by the sighted (job interviews, dates,
> etc.) I think conformity is important to maximize our chances of
> attaining opportunities. In other situations, such as when we are
> alone or with people we trust (close friends, etc.) I'd say do what
> you want, so long as your behavior is not harming or inconveniencing
> others. It's not right for us to be constantly monitoring ourselves
> and aiming to conform to sighted norms all the time. But nor is it
> good for us to miss out on opportunities because we failed to give our
> self-presentations enough attention.
> Best,
> Arielle
> 
> On 11/18/11, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Your comparing apples and oranges. Blind people can act more graceful, have
>> expression, wear nice clothes, be competent with the alternative skills, and
>> more showing that we can fit in. A minority like being say black cannot be
>> changed.
>> We cannot change blindness but we can and should stop rocking, eye poking
>> and other things. There is someone in our nfb chapter who looks gross; I see
>> him do this as I have tunnel vision. He moves his head up/down, side/side
>> like an amimal, rocks his head, opens his moutth, making weird contortions,
>> picks his nose, and just doesn't look good. Now other men are well dressed,
>> have a still head, look at the speaker, and act more socially appropriate.
>> Frankly, I'm embarrassed to be around someone like this in public; whether
>> sighted or blind, but particularly blind person since its creates a
>> steretypical image!
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marc Workman
>> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:26 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups
>> 
>> Carly wrote,
>> How can facial expressions and other body language convey meaning if they
>> are not naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of
>> put on nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning?
>> 
>> I want to take Carly's point further and suggest that pressuring blind
>> people to look and act like others is in itself wrong.  I'm not suggesting
>> there is no value to it, nor am I saying it should never be done, but it
>> makes me uncomfortable.
>> 
>> The subject of this thread is comparing blindness to other minorities.  I
>> think there's a parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act
>> like everyone else and things that some minorities used to do and still do
>> for similar reasons.  In the past, among African Americans, there existed
>> the practice of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of
>> appearing less black and/or more white.  I can't give evidence to show how
>> common this was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from
>> his hair himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful
>> process.  There are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian
>> descent more "white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses.
>> These are just a couple of examples.  Pressuring minorities to adopt the
>> dominant group's style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also
>> often happens.
>> 
>> I hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate.  There may
>> be psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but feeling
>> pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you look more
>> like one particular group in society is problematic to say the least.  So
>> what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind person to
>> adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language etc of some
>> sighted people?
>> 
>> You might say that we live in a sighted world and so we have to adapt.
>> There is something to this, but I wonder if it would be equally acceptable
>> to say we live in a white-dominated world so non-whites have to adapt.  It
>> may be the case that blind people who don't "look blind" are more successful
>> and integrate better, and it also may be that non-whites who look and act
>> white are more successful and integrate better, but in neither case is it
>> just that the minorities need to assume the dominant groups characteristics
>> in order to be successful.
>> 
>> What ultimately needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and
>> act like sighted people, but that we all become more accepting of
>> differences that are arbitrary and irrelevant.  Most, if not all, so called
>> blindisms are irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I
>> do for trying to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance
>> possessed by other minority groups.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Marc
>> On 2011-11-18, at 6:40 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Good morning, Arielle,
>>> 
>>> I know I tend to use such gestures as a quick shrug of the shoulders to
>>> express nonchalantness since such a nonverbal expression seems to come
>>> naturally to me so I hope is somewhat believable. How can facial
>>> expressions and other body language convey meaning if they are not
>>> naturally, ocuring? For this reason I don't see a reason to sort of put on
>>> 
>>> nonverbal, expression if, behind it there is little, meaning? What's the
>>> point? I Tara and all,
>>>> You make a good point about nonverbal communication. I agree that it
>>>> behooves us as blind people to actively use nonverbal communication to
>>>> express ourselves. However, I wonder how skilled someone can become at
>>>> this who has been totally blind since birth, even with practice. In
>>>> particular, I am thinking about deliberately using nonverbal signals
>>>> in emotional or stressful situations, like eye-rolling or looking
>>>> annoyed when a stranger says or does something obnoxious. I imagine we
>>>> can practice certain gestures or facial expressions, but would they
>>>> ever become automatic enough to appear without much conscious effort,
>>>> as they do for sighted people? Of course some things, like facing a
>>>> conversation partner, are easy and don't require much thought, but
>>>> other expressions are a lot more nuanced. I'm curious if any of you
>>>> who have always been blind really feel like you have developed good
>>>> control over your facial and body expressions, or if any of you have
>>>> made attempts to get better. I really do think that focused lessons
>>>> about body language should be taught to young blind children, but I
>>>> think that realistically, the task of getting someone who has always
>>>> been blind to adopt culturally shared facial expressions and gestures
>>>> routinely is a lot harder than just a simple explanation. Then again,
>>>> if this kind of education were treated like a dance or acting class,
>>>> with as much discipline and structure, maybe it could work.
>>>> Incidentally, I have noticed that if I find myself thinking about
>>>> something funny, I will pop a big smile and people will ask me what's
>>>> so funny. I'm curious if this happens to anyone else? I get the
>>>> impression that this doesn't happen to sighted people and I assume
>>>> that sighted people find themselves thinking about funny things too,
>>>> but that they just hide it better. Often I am so distracted by the
>>>> funny thought that I don't even realize I am grinning until my
>>>> attention is called to it. This is often quite awkward and
>>>> embarrassing, especially since most of the time, the funny thing I am
>>>> thinking about is just a stupid joke or something from a TV show and I
>>>> don't really feel like explaining it out loud. Can you think of a
>>>> graceful way to handle this, or to prevent it?
>>>> Best,
>>>> Arielle
>>>> 
>>>> On 11/15/11, Andi <adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>     I agree nonverbal comunication is so very important and I think it
>>>>> should be included in the curriculum that VI's and training centers
>>>>> use, not
>>>>> only what we want to say but also avoiding the nonverbals that say what
>>>>> 
>>>>> we
>>>>> do not want to say.  I use to work at a summer camp and I notice a big
>>>>> difference in the social lives of the blind kids and teens who had an
>>>>> understanding of nonverbal comunication versis the blind kids and teens
>>>>> 
>>>>> who
>>>>> were not taught nonverbal comunication.  Part of the reason sighted
>>>>> people
>>>>> think so badly and incorrectly about the blind is because sometimes
>>>>> blind
>>>>> people do not allways look compatent even though they are.  I am not
>>>>> saying
>>>>> that all blind people look this way, nor am I saying that blind people
>>>>> who
>>>>> look compatent are never faulsly judged.  I know that the sighted are
>>>>> largely ignorent to the truthe about blind people, but I think blind
>>>>> people
>>>>> also need to present themselves in a way that portrays them how they
>>>>> want to
>>>>> be seen.  I know that you shouldn't care to much what other people
>>>>> think of
>>>>> you, because you can not please everyone, and you should always be true
>>>>> 
>>>>> to
>>>>> yourself; however all people especially people who are already dealing
>>>>> with
>>>>> stigmas such as the blind should care to a sertain extent.
>>>>>     Many blind people have atrophy in the muscles in their face.  This
>>>>> means that many facial expressions are hard or in some cases impossible
>>>>> 
>>>>> to
>>>>> make.  When people have a blank look on their face it looks to the
>>>>> sighted
>>>>> like there is nothing going on upstairs.  Even other sighted people get
>>>>> 
>>>>> this
>>>>> blank look on their face sometimes but it is usually when they are
>>>>> dazing
>>>>> off or falling asleep.  When a person has that look all the time it
>>>>> looks to
>>>>> sighted people that the blind can not have an intelligent conversation
>>>>> because you can not talk to someone who is off in space.  Some Blind
>>>>> people
>>>>> go to physical tharipy to remedy this, but that is not necessary just
>>>>> some
>>>>> exercises at home can fix it.  Also eye contact is a big part of
>>>>> nonverbal
>>>>> comunication.  Many blind people keep their eyes closed, or look at the
>>>>> floor, or look up in the sky.  That to a sighted person shows
>>>>> disinterest,
>>>>> bordom, or again the off in space thing depending on the rest of your
>>>>> body
>>>>> language accompanying the lack of eye contact.  Even though we can not
>>>>> see
>>>>> the person we are talking to we should make eye contact.  Isms such as
>>>>> rocking, poking, spinning, or flicking, are not exceptable ever as this
>>>>> looks like a cognitive impairment.  At the camp their were blind kids
>>>>> with
>>>>> no other disability, and blind kids who also had cognitive impairments.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I
>>>>> had my sighted sister come to the camp and help teach a weekend dance
>>>>> camp
>>>>> as she is a very skilld dancer.  One teenager who is very smart by the
>>>>> way
>>>>> and has no other disabilities was rocking and poking while singing
>>>>> loudly at
>>>>> dinner.  My sister had not yet met him and asked me how old he was
>>>>> mentally.
>>>>> Once she met him and realized he was mentally a normal teen she felt
>>>>> bad for
>>>>> asking the question, but that is how the sighted world looks at isms.
>>>>> The
>>>>> placement of your hands is a simple but often socially faital thing if
>>>>> placed oddly.  Also the way a person stands or walks is importaint.
>>>>> Many
>>>>> blind people move stiffly, I am not talking a robot, but still stif
>>>>> movements can tell a sighted person something you are not trying to
>>>>> say.
>>>>> Depending on what you are doing with the stiff movement you can look
>>>>> either
>>>>> angry, nervous, or mocking.  This is just the tip of the nonverbal
>>>>> icebirg,
>>>>> and it can make a huge difference in the way we as blind people are
>>>>> viewed.
>>>>>     Also you are right about understanding the body language of
>>>>> others, and
>>>>> even though we can not see it there are ways of telling what is being
>>>>> said
>>>>> silently.  Some actions make noise, while others have a different
>>>>> energy
>>>>> feel.  I was told that only 7 percent of all comunication is what a
>>>>> person
>>>>> says, 32 percent of all comunication is tone, and 61 percent of all
>>>>> comunication is nonverbal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Tara Annis
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:20 AM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness versus other minority groups
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think the first step in helping blind people to get their feelings
>>>>> across
>>>>> to the sighted is  to understand what is considered ignorance and what
>>>>> is
>>>>> considered outright teasing and cruelty in public.  Many of the meanest
>>>>> things are just said with one word    and a lot of body language.  Many
>>>>> people who hate blind people speak in a nice manner, but  exhibit
>>>>> cruelty in
>>>>> their body language. I do think a lot of blind people, not all, but
>>>>> some, do
>>>>> lack discernment in this area, especially if they are blind from birth
>>>>> and a
>>>>> sighted person  does not take the time to explain nonverbal
>>>>> communication.
>>>>> I think the first step would be for an honest sighted person to follow
>>>>> a
>>>>> blind person around and interpret the visual elements to the blind
>>>>> person,
>>>>> so that the entire picture can be analyzed for both parties.  I think
>>>>> one of
>>>>> the best ways to respond to those who are ignorant, who are not
>>>>> attempting
>>>>> to be mean, but make offensive remarks is through body language, like
>>>>> rolling one's eyes.  Most sighted people use   nonverbal communication
>>>>> to
>>>>> show  when they are irritated by another person.  If the person
>>>>> continues to
>>>>> be annoying, the person will then use verbal communication.  That is
>>>>> why
>>>>> sighted people think blind are mean for actually verbally stating their
>>>>> anger, instead of visually displaying it.  I would like to see a class
>>>>> where
>>>>> advanced nonverbal communication is explained, since    currently it
>>>>> seems
>>>>> there are just the basics  taught, like  facing the person you are
>>>>> talking
>>>>> to and shaking hands. There is not a class in how to display   the
>>>>> various
>>>>> ways of shooing levels of discomfort, from   annoyed, slightly
>>>>> irritated,
>>>>> somewhat irritated, to angry. Blind people need to know that sometimes
>>>>> it is
>>>>> necessary to actively create facial expressions and body movements, as
>>>>> opposed to letting one's body language depict their true feelings.
>>>>> Personally, I was surprised at the amount of communication that is
>>>>> displayed
>>>>> nonverbally, that sighted people watch me from across a large college
>>>>> campus, or from way down the street, and are making judgments about me
>>>>> from
>>>>> my appearance. Once this was explained to me, I do feel that I am more
>>>>> comfortable around sighted people, and am  in   control of  getting my
>>>>> feelings across.  The great thing about learning all this stuff is that
>>>>> 
>>>>> I
>>>>> have seen the amount of ignorance I faced by sighted people diminish
>>>>> significantly.  It is a 50/50 situation: blind people need to do their
>>>>> half
>>>>> of    helping get rid of ignorance  and sighted people need to be
>>>>> willing to
>>>>> do their half.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
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>>>> 
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