[nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions

vejas brlsurfer at gmail.com
Sun Nov 20 00:48:47 UTC 2011


I don't know if any of you have this problem, but I have trouble 
smiling on camera.  I don't know-I just can't always get myself 
to do it, but then when something isn't funny sometimes I do 
smile, and I might be thinking about something which really isn't 
funny to someone else.
Vejas


 ----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Molloy <ptrck.molloy at gmail.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 19:32:22 -0500
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions

Ashley,
Maybe some blind people don't know how and when to use the facial
expressions that they already have, and because of this, they 
don't
use any expressions at all.  It's an interesting question.  I 
mean, the
"programming" is there, but like you said, some people just have 
no
facial expression.
Patrick

On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
 Patrick,
 Right.  Facial expressions are often natural.  They reflect our 
mood.  No one
 taught me to look sad, happy, worried, annoyed, etc, it just 
happens if I
 feel that way.  But some totally blind people seem so 
expressionless, and I
 don't understand why, because like you said, facial expressions 
are
 genetically encoded.

 -----Original Message-----
 From: Patrick Molloy
 Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:59 PM
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions

 Bridgit,
 I liked what you said, but I think you should know that there 
are some
 facial expressions that blind people don't have to learn.  For
 instance, a smile is genetically encoded in everybody.  We don't 
need
 sighted people to tell us how to do that.  I think it's best to 
start
 with what blind people already know, then find a trusted sighted
 friend or family member and talk to them about nonverbal
 communication.  As I say, we really don't have far to go, 
because there
 are genetic codes for a lot of these facial expressions.  It's 
just a
 matter of learning to use them and practicing them.
 Patrick

 On 11/19/11, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
 that type of attitude won't get you a job or friends.  Its not 
about
 fitting
 into a box, its about learning appropriate communication 
behaviors to get
 along in the world.  If I decided to live in France and work 
there, I'd
 learn
 French culture, ways of greeting one another, personal space, 
and other
 customs and would also learn what was deemed offensive there.  
So in our
 culture here, I'll want to learn the same things only 
differently since
 most
 people learn by observation.
 Ashley

 -----Original Message-----
 From: Carly Mihalakis
 Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:03 PM
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; 
National
 Association of Blind Students mailing list
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions


 Good afternoon, Ashley I think,

 What's with trying to cram everyone into boxes
 upon which are plastered identifiers like
 "blindness" and "cognitive impairments?" People
 ought to feel they can just do what feels right,
 and comfortable and not be pressured to shead
 some mannerisms, while retaining others.  Doncha
 think? And, besides, there are folks starving, in
 this here world so if kid needs to rock, and he
 doesn't happen to have so-called cog native
 impairment, let the kid rock around the whole,
 clock!11/19/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote:
Bridgit, Very well said! Sighted people in a culture learn body 
language
and facial expressions from observing others; our culture 
emphasises
personal space, shaking hands to greet, and eye contact just as 
some
examples.  Blind and low vision people won’t see it, but if 
someone works
with us, its still a learned behavior; we just learn in a 
different way.  I
think behaviors such as eye contact and shaking hands  are 
natural since I
learned early on as did sighted peers.  Once practiced, it became 
more
automatic.  I also like your comment that we should try to 
extinguish
behaviors associated with mental and cognitive behaviors.  
Rocking is one
of

them.  Yet, I think it would be unnatural to learn something now; 
I could
do

it, but it would probably be stiffer and not as natural like if I 
learned
gestures.  What I do though in a presentation is look around the 
room from
left to right; speakers to do this to get attention and establish
themselves before talking to a group; I do it even though I 
cannot see a
lot, especially toward the back of the room.  I can also say yes 
or no with
my head because I was taught early on.  But other nonverbals such 
as
winking, shrugging shoulders, and becconing with the hand were 
not taught
and I think I'd be a little stiffer and unnatural doing them.  
Still it
would be good to try and learn.  Ashley -----Original 
Message----- From:
Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 PM To:
nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Body language and facial 
expressions
This is such a dodgy issue.  It is a fine balance, and while I 
understand
we

shouldn't use and act in ways completely unnatural to us, we also 
should
try to follow behavior that's not indicative of other 
disabilities
associated with mental and cognitive issues.  Most body language 
and facial
expressions are learned behavior.  Since most of the population 
is sighted,
we learn facial expressions and body language from observing 
others.
Babies

and little children often mimic what they see others doing.  As 
we grow
older, we tend to adopt body and facial expressions natural to us 
as
individuals, but often associated, whether conscious or 
unconscious,
through learned behavior.  It stands to reason that if a person 
is trying
to

adopt behavior nonvisually, one would work with another person to 
adopt,
and understand, certain facial and body expressions.  Just 
because we learn
the behavior, A.  K.  A.  facial expressions and body language, 
through a
nonvisual medium, does not necessarily imply that the facial and 
body
expressions a blind person replaces with either more stoic and 
rigid
expressions or movement, or rocking or inappropriate movements, 
is
inorganic, or unnatural, to that individual.  If you learn, 
though
nonvisually, a different way to move and express yourself, why 
does it
have

to be unnatural and arbitrary? Like sighted people, we're 
adopting
behavior, just in a different way; it's learned behavior though 
learned in
a nonvisual manner.  And as I've stated earlier, I believe asking 
u to
cover, hide, something like our eyes is equal to bleaching skin 
or
straightening hair or covering accents/dialects; I don't, 
however, think
that changing certain behaviors, such as rocking, can be equated 
to this.
First, all people have physical movements often unique to them as 
an
individual whether noticeable or not.  It's often instinctive and
unconscious.  However, some movements are associated with mental, 
cognitive
or psychological disabilities/concerns.  In particular, rocking 
is often
associated with developmental disabilities or abuse victims.  
Certain
facial

expressions are also associated with developmental disabilities 
and other
psychological issues.  Obviously people who are blind, while many 
do have
multiple disabilities, don't have developmental disabilities, but 
because
some of the "blindisms" are also linked to such disabilities, I 
don't
think

it's a problem to expect people who are blind to correct such 
behavior.  I
don't see this similar to changing, or concealing, body parts or 
internal
attributes associated with race or ethnicity, or in the case of
disabilities that can't be controlled such as the functioning of 
eyes or
missing limbs.  In a nutshell, which I have problems fitting 
things into,
smile, my point is that body language and many facial expressions 
are
picked up through learned behavior.  Whether we learn this 
behavior
visually

or nonvisually, it doesn't mean we're just going through the 
motions-
acting as it were.  It's the same process just done nonvisually.  
Just as we
learn to read and write Braille or use adaptive technology with 
computers.
We're doing the same things, just in a different way.  I also 
don't think
we

can compare certain changes nade , physically or internally, 
indicative of
race or ethnicity, to correcting social behavior such as body 
language or
facial expressions either linked to other disabilities or 
inappropriate to
a given situation.  Sincerely, Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter Read my 
blog at:
http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/ "History is 
not what
happened; history is what was written down." The Expected One- 
Kathleen
McGowan Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:26:31 -0700 From: 
Marc
Workman

<mworkman.lists at gmail.com> To: National Association of Blind 
Students
mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness 
versus
other minority groups Message-ID:
<039F2609-C62A-4985-83E1-FBC50C239F70 at gmail.com> Content-Type: 
text/plain;
charset=us-ascii Carly wrote, How can facial expressions and 
other body
language convey meaning if they are not naturally, ocuring? For 
this
reason

I don't see a reason to sort of put on nonverbal, expression if, 
behind it
there is little, meaning? I want to take Carly's point further 
and suggest
that pressuring blind people to look and act like others is in 
itself
wrong.  I'm not suggesting there is no value to it, nor am I 
saying it
should never be done, but it makes me uncomfortable.  The subject 
of this
thread is comparing blindness to other minorities.  I think 
there's a
parallel between pressuring blind people to look and act like 
everyone
else

and things that some minorities used to do and still do for 
similar
reasons.  In the past, among African Americans, there existed the 
practice
of skin bleaching and hair straightening for the purpose of 
appearing less
black and/or more white.  I can't give evidence to show how 
common this
was, but Malcolm X talked about trying to remove the kink from 
his hair
himself and finding it a physically and emotionally painful 
process.
There

are also surgeries performed to give people of East Asian descent 
more
"white looking" eyes and Jews more "white looking" noses.  These 
are just
a

couple of examples.  Pressuring minorities to adopt the dominant 
group's
style of dress, gate, diction, body language, etc also often 
happens.  I
hope we can agree that this is at the very least unfortunate.  
There may
be

psychological and other explanations for why this occurs, but 
feeling
pressured to get a nose job or to bleach your skin so that you 
look more
like one particular group in society is problematic to say the 
least.  So
what's the difference between these cases and pressuring a blind 
person to
adopt the behavioural habits, facial expressions, body language 
etc of
some

sighted people? You might say that we live in a sighted world and 
so we
have to adapt.  There is something to this, but I wonder if it 
would be
equally acceptable to say we live in a white-dominated world so 
non-whites
have to adapt.  It may be the case that blind people who don't 
"look
blind"

are more successful and integrate better, and it also may be that
non-whites who look and act white are more successful and 
integrate
better,

but in neither case is it just that the minorities need to assume 
the
dominant groups characteristics in order to be successful.  What 
ultimately
needs to happen is not that blind people begin to look and act 
like
sighted

people, but that we all become more accepting of differences that 
are
arbitrary and irrelevant.  Most, if not all, so called blindisms 
are
irrelevant, and I see no more reason to stamp them out than I do 
for
trying

to eliminate various differences in behaviour and appearance 
possessed by
other minority groups.  Cheers,
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