[nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions

Thu Nov 24 22:13:09 UTC 2011

Arielle,
Good point. For blindisms, I took years to stop rocking and still do it 
ocasionally; its not that I want to do it in public, but I'm unaware of it 
until someone usually a family member points it out. It seldom happens now. 
Sometimes if I feel like rocking or doing something qwerky, I just wait and 
do it in the privacy of my home.

It is hard to immitate what sighted people do if we cannot see it and 
sometimes behaviors come out unconsciously.
I think we should try our best, but if we're not aware of something and when 
we're out alone, and are thinking of a million other things, we probably 
shouldn't feel too guilty. When I rock its when I'm moving, maybe for 
balance or something, but not when I'm sitting down. Fortunately, most 
evaluative situations occur when one is sitting or standing. For instance, 
presentations, interviews, taking exams, even being in class. So its not too 
much of an issue there.

Sadly though, due to low expectations, I'd contend that a lot of blind 
people simply don't know what is socially appropriate since no one taught 
them in a way they can learn. Sighted children learn starting as infants 
what is right and wrong; as toddlers they learn even more once they 
understand language. If a blind kid doesn't have this information, they will 
not know what is so called normal.  As adults, we can pick how to behave, 
but to make a informed decision, we need to know what everyone else is 
doing. Its hard to get that info without asking. I remember asking my 
coworkers quietly about breaks, if we could get personal calls at work, what 
the dress expectations were, etc. It was harder for me to know this by just 
observing. With that info, I could conform to the atmosphere. Obviously we 
still retained our individual identity, but there are unspoken rules in any 
group setting such as work.

You're so right that information isn't enough. We also have to be 1.
motivated to include that behavior in our life to conform and 2. have the 
ability to do it.

I can understand why Bridgit feels passionate about this; she was sighted 
most of her life. I like that idea of taking an etiquette class and might do 
that in the near future.

Ashley
-----Original Message----- 
From: Arielle Silverman
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 4:46 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions

Hi Bridgit,
Do you happen to remember who wrote the study about the blind student
masturbating during class? I'd be curious to know if it was actually
verified that the reason he did this is because no one had ever told
him that he shouldn't do it. It's definitely possible, but it's also
possible that he knew he shouldn't do it but still ended up doing it
for a different reason. Perhaps he had a sexual compulsion (unrelated
to blindness) that made it very hard for him to not masturbate no
matter how hard he tried. Or, it's possible that he knew he
"shouldn't" do it or that other kids didn't do it, but that he wasn't
motivated to stop, figuring "the teacher's blind, what's the
difference?" My point is that I think whenever a blind person displays
any kind of non-normative behavior, it's assumed they just "don't know
any better" but that's just one of several possible reasons. As I've
stated before, in order for anyone to modify their behavior they have
to (a) know what the desired behavior is, (b) actually be motivated to
change to conform to the norms, and (c) have the ability
(self-awareness, self-control, etc.) to do so. In the case of
blindisms, I would submit that most cases of blindisms do not result
from mere lack of knowledge, but from either lack of motivation, lack
of ability, or both. I have talked to so many blind teens and adults
over the years who have complained that they really want to stop
rocking or eye-poking but just can't because they aren't aware that it
is happening. I have also talked to a few blind people who know that
sighted people don't do those things, but still choose to do them
(active nonconformity, like my adolescent approach to fashion that I
mentioned earlier). I think when people assume any atypical behavior
of the blind stems from merely not knowing what the norms are, we
neglect the more complex aspects of the issue.
Best,
Arielle

On 11/24/11, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> Bridgit wrote,
> why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one?
> Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why
> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind
> people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones
> society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental
> disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier.
>
> Now let's rewrite this from the perspective of an intellectually disabled
> person who is trying to convince other intellectually disabled people not 
> to
> look blind.
>
> why be assumed to have a sight limitation if you don't have one?
> Most people will already make assumptions about us as intellectually
> disabled people; why
> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is 
> intellectually
> disabled
> people, who are just intellectually disabled, have no barriers other than
> the ones
> society, and themselves, put in our path. People who are blind have an
> actual sight limitation.
>
> Ashley wrote,
> I was never told not to look blind. But I was told not to rock because it
> looks like something a cognitively delayed/retarded person would do. Why
> have people assume we have another disability when we don't? It makes us
> look worse.
>
> It makes us look worse only if you assume it's worse to be cognitively
> delayed/retarded.  Again, would it be okay to say, hey, stop that rocking,
> you look blind.  You're not blind; you're just cognitively disabled, and 
> you
> don't want to look worse, so stop looking like a blind person.
>
> I think this whole line of argument that we don't want to look "retarded",
> and I use that word in quotes because it's a degrading word, is incredibly
> ironic considering that it expresses the same negative attitudes towards
> intellectual disability that we are all supposed to be fighting against 
> with
> respect to blindness.
>
> Bridgit wrote,
> Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not
> appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected.
>
> What I'd like to know is: who exactly decides this and how is it decided?
> Does Bridgit get to say what is an isn't appropriate? Is it this thing
> called society that decides? Does not what is considered appropriate 
> change
> over time? So how does it change? There was a time when it was considered
> inappropriate for women and African Americans to talk back to white men. 
> It
> seems obvious to me that what is considered to be appropriate changes over
> time and that this change occurs because people challenge attitudes.  Is 
> it
> not at least possible that some of the behaviours that we've been 
> discussing
> are like some of the attitudes about women and minorities that have been
> challenged and changed?
>
> Ashley wrote,
> Just goes to show that if you behave naturally, people may not think of 
> your
> blindness or focus on it; they focus on you as a human.
>
> I don't know about you, Ashley, but my blindness and my humanity are not
> mutually exclusive.  It's not seeing me as a blind person that bothers me.
> I am a blind person.  It's the negative attitudes about blindness that
> bother me.  Specifically, it's viewing blindness as bad, as ugly, as 
> weird,
> as abnormal, as wrong that bothers me.  One way to deal with these 
> attitudes
> is to train blind people to look and act like most people look and act.  A
> second way is to educate people, to teach them that blindness may lead to
> looking and acting differently, but that this is not bad, ugly, weird,
> abnormal or wrong.  The latter path is of course the harder one.  It's 
> much
> easier to change the minority than the majority.  I believe, though, that
> the latter path leads to the world that is better for everyone.
>
> I know many of you are celebrating Thanks Giving.  We in Canada celebrated
> it at the appropriate time in October, but for all you Americans, I hope
> you're enjoying the holiday.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
> On 2011-11-23, at 7:49 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote:
>
>> Um, I've heard plenty of sighted kids be told not to do certain behavior
>> because it's not "normal" or wrong. True, blind people often exhibit
>> certain behavior due to no one stepping up and helping them develop
>> social skills and behavior, which is a parents job. And it is the same
>> with sighted people. My mom is a teacher, and she says the exact same
>> thing about her sighted students as we're stating in this thread: it's
>> not to be insensitive or defamatory towards developmental disabilities,
>> but if you have no cognitive disability whatsoever, you don't want to
>> have people assume you also have some developmental issue.
>>
>> I have relatives with varying levels of developmental disabilities, a
>> couple rather severe. Some of them engage in the rocking, eye poking,
>> inappropriate expressions and mannerisms, just to mention a few. This
>> not only goes to show that what we term Blindism isn't specific to blind
>> people, it also shows why others assume a person exhibiting such
>> behavior may have a developmental disability. I'm not arguing what's
>> right or wrong- I'm simply stating the current reality.
>>
>> And I've heard plenty of, sighted and otherwise,  kids be told they
>> don't want to look like they have a developmental disability. This may
>> not be tactful, but I have been around plenty of sighted people who say
>> this to other sighted people. The term retarded is not a great way to
>> describe people with cognitive disabilities, but the point, usually, is
>> why be assumed to have an intellectual barrier if you don't have one?
>> Most people will already make assumptions about us as blind people; why
>> give them more reasons to make snap assumptions? The fact is blind
>> people, who are just blind, have no barriers other than the ones
>> society, and themselves, put in our path. People with developmental
>> disabilities have an actual intellectual barrier. For some, it is great
>> than others. My highest functioning relative with MR has a high school
>> comprehension level, which is pretty good. The lowest functioning
>> relative I have is in his early forties and has the comprehension level
>> of a pre-schooler. Again, whether it's right or wrong, do you wanted to
>> be assumed to be low-functioning? I doubt it.
>>
>> And being blind isn't a culture. How can we argue that a particular
>> disability is a culture, or even sub-culture, when, once again, we claim
>> to be equal to others, we just can't see, and we live and grow up with
>> customs, traditions and beliefs the same as those in our environment?
>> Having a specific philosophy about blindness isn't the same as having a
>> separate culture. We live, work and interact in the world; we just do
>> things nonvisually.
>>
>> God, I'm tired of this whole blind vs. sight issue. We have the ability
>> and potential to pursue whatever we want: education, employment, family,
>> social life. It has nothing to do with being cookie-cutter replicas of
>> sighted people; it's about claiming our equality and acting like normal,
>> functioning people regardless of disability. To say that there's nothing
>> wrong with certain behavior because it comes naturally to a person is
>> just an excuse to not change it. We are not discussing alternative skill
>> levels or how independent we are; we're talking about physical behavior
>> that's not acceptable for anyone, sighted or blind alike. If people put
>> a distinction on this behavior simply because of blindness, that mindset
>> needs to be changed, but if we just say, "Hey, that's normal to that
>> person, so they should be able to rock back and forth like a pendulum,
>> or push against their eyes no matter the setting, or stand close enough
>> to people that they're touching, because we just need to accept certain
>> behavior and not associate, or connect, it to any other issue or
>> disability," it sounds like an excuse to give up and not work on
>> yourself as an individual.
>>
>> Don't give me the how people think and act around blind people. So what?
>> If society lumps us in with other disabilities, or fail to understand
>> our true abilities, so what; if we perpetuate the labels and
>> distinctions and stereotypes, we don't get very far. It's not a
>> disability specific thing regardless of what society thinks. And in my
>> own personal experience, I've heard sighted people tell other sighted
>> people the exact same things we're discussing in this thread. They may
>> view it differently if discussing blind people, but nonetheless, they do
>> and say the same things- not all, but many. So we should stop
>> considering it a blind vs. sight issue.
>>
>> Blind, sighted, purple, blue, certain behaviors and mannerisms are not
>> appropriate no matter the circumstance, and it should be corrected. If
>> we told each other to conform to a particular thinking or personality or
>> appearance, this would be a perfect example of saying we shouldn't have
>> to follow one standard. We're talking about odd physical movements
>> though that are out of place for most settings. Correcting this isn't
>> conforming to society's standards or sighty's perspective; it's called
>> being a human being, and whether blind or not, certain behavior and
>> mannerisms should be corrected. It should be done gently, with love and
>> not in a demeaning way, but corrected just the same.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
>> Read my blog at:
>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/
>>
>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down."
>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan
>>
>>
>>
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:12:33 -0500
>> From: Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Body language and facial expressions
>> Message-ID: 16fc5414-d8f5-4814-a8f5-24b67d625da8 at samobile.net
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>>
>> Bridgit,
>>
>> The difference in teaching the sighted to be appropriate versus the
>> blind is that sighted kids are simply reminded not to do certain things
>> or to do others. With the blind, it's not that simple. There are
>> journal articles written about why we do what we do; these articles
>> often proclaim that we have no or underdeveloped social skills and that
>> the sighted must intervene lest we have no friends later on. You've
>> even seen some of that here perpetuated by our own self-criticisms.
>> When sighted kids are taught to be appropriate, they are told to be
>> appropriate. When blind kids are taught to be appropriate, they are
>> often told not to look like a blind person. it's no accident that our
>> mannerisms are referred to as blindisms. Have you ever heard sighted
>> mannerisms called sightedisms? And what about this notion of looking
>> like a person with a cognitive disability? I've heard comments here
>> like "we shouldn't look retarded because we're not." I am angry with
>> this line of thought because it puts down people with disabilities in
>> general as someone else here has pointed out some time ago. I've never
>> heard comments like this when teaching sighted children to behave a
>> certain way.
>>
>> Marc's right. This isn't just about teaching and learning appropriate
>> behavior. This is about the age-old question every minority faces:
>> assimilation or accommodation? Should we act like the majority or
>> should we find a balance between our cultures and learn to adapt to
>> each other? I prefer the latter myself. i believe in being congruent: I
>> want to be who and what I am; this sometimes includes changing my
>> behavior in some context because I want acceptance from others. In this
>> process, I'm developing an inner meter that tells me when I need to do
>> which, and that meter isn't calibrated to other people's meters because
>> I find such a practice useless and utterly stressful. I'm learning to
>> trust myself to come up with the best behavior for the situation
>> because I am starting to believe I have the knowledge I need or have
>> the resources to receive the knowledge I need in the current moment.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>>
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