[nabs-l] NFB Philosophy

Fri Jul 20 13:32:33 UTC 2012

What?
After he posted on NFB-Talk, saying that he was leaving them?
Wow!
Thanks, Joshua

On 7/20/12, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you, Tyler. Those were my thoughts exactly. One thing you've got
> slightly wrong though is that the new money identifiers really aren't
> clunky. The IBill, in fact, can easily fit into your pocket. Then you
> just slide a bill into it and it identifies it for you. It can respond
> by vibration, a series of beeps, or by speaking the denomination of
> the bill. I have one of them, and not only is it inexpensive, but it
> works well.
> On the issue of accessible currency, I'm not in favor of that, either.
> For one thing, it would take quite awhile for the old money to be
> phased out. It would remain in circulation for years, thus you would
> still have the old, inaccessible bills handed to you in most cases for
> a long time. Second, think of how many things would have to be
> modified--vending machines, cash registers, even things like arcade
> games that might take dollar bills, all to fit the new currency. That
> would be extremely costly. God knows that the government doesn't have
> the money to spend on something like that. No, they're too busy
> wasting it on pointless crap...Everything to do with every other
> country's business, never stepping up to help our own people.
> Back on topic, as far as the NFB's philosophy goes, I have to agree
> with what Arielle said about not needing to be in an organization for
> or of the blind to have a positive attitude about blindness. That's
> like saying that one must be religious to have morals. No, I don't
> want to know if people think that's true or false--I've heard enough
> of that debate to last a lifetime--I'm just saying it to make a point.
> While some people are certainly bolstered by being members of such an
> organization, gaining something from being surrounded by like-minded
> individuals, that's definitely not me. I'm not a member of either
> organization, nor do I intend on becoming one. I use listservs of both
> because I think that, like the core philosophy, the exchange of ideas,
> support and thoughts should not be limited to what team you play for
> so to speak. For the most part, it isn't. We're all people, and we all
> deserve to be heard, no matter what flag we wave in the name of our
> own self-discovery.
> Oh, and Joshua, get your facts straight. Michael Capell decided to
> stay with the ACB. I really don't think you should spread rumors about
> people without knowing the whole story.
>
> On 7/20/12, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
>> Josh,
>> you really are an idiot. It's not to often that I just drop all sarcasm
>> and really go for it, but I have to.
>> You start out introducing nothing to the list but bad information and
>> one-line "I agree," "I have those too," then you jump into bashing me
>> when I ask about the philosophy of NFB. From there, we move into "Dam
>> the ACB for not voting for fair wages. NFB voted against something, but
>> hey, that's ok because we'd put the manufacturers of equipment and
>> software out of business," and we go on to "omg it would cost lots of
>> money to make this accessible."
>>
>> It's people like you who drive people away. Maybe you did just get
>> Michael capell, congratulations, but there are people that switch back
>> and forth all the time. If you have to wait for someone like Sean and
>> the others on this list to give you an intelligent cogent philosophy you
>> can grab on to as a lifeline so you can hop back up on your
>> self-righteous confederationist soapbox, then all the more power to you.
>> Might I propose though, that you go from being a mindless
>> confederationist zombie who spews random crap and calls it fact, and
>> actually consider thinking for yourself. Your arguments for the NFB not
>> passing the accessible money is not logical at all. In fact, if I
>> remember correctly, you were one of the ones screaming about things
>> costing to much a few messages back.
>>
>> I don't want what I said to be taken as an attack on the NFB, either. I
>> believe every organization has good members who can give good, valid
>> information like Sean, Arielle and others have, but they also have a
>> high percentage of mindless bafoons, like our dear friend, as well.
>>
>> I understand that it would cost money to make currency brailled and
>> accessible, but hey, on the flip-side, it would cost money to pay
>> disabled people fair wages, too, so lets just drop that, because we
>> can't have something costing money now, can we?
>>
>> As for my idea of currency, I really have no idea how this would work
>> out, since the braille could get smashed. Maybe there could be a strip
>> of thicker paper at one end of the bill that would have the braille on
>> it; it would not prevent it from getting pushed down, but it would
>> certainly help, and we wouldn't have to walk around with one of them
>> clunky expensive money readers, or hold the bill in front of the IPhone
>> for 5 minutes rotating it every which direction until it picks it up and
>> announces it.
>> On 7/19/2012 11:43 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>> Also, do you know how much it would cost to make the money accessible?
>>> My idea, when Alan Ramos first presented it to me, was a Brailled
>>> currency.
>>> What is your idea of accessible currency?
>>> I'm curious!
>>> Thanks, Joshua
>>>
>>> On 7/20/12, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
>>>> I did attend the convention. I did not, however go to every general
>>>> session from 8 to 5.
>>>> But hey. lets bash the ACB for not voting for fair wages, for whatever
>>>> reason they did, but not make money accessible because gosh, we sure
>>>> don't want to put the manufacturers of a program out of business. Your
>>>> logic is flawless, my friend.
>>>> On 7/19/2012 11:20 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>> Well, did you attend the convention?
>>>>> You should know!
>>>>> I'm not "bashing," but am concerned that they claim to be of the
>>>>> blind, but they vote against fair wages.
>>>>> BTW, they voted for the accessible currency, but we voted against it.
>>>>> I've heard from both sides of the issue, and I take the NFB's
>>>>> position, because accessible currency would put the manufacturers of
>>>>> the IBill out of business.
>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/20/12, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Josh,
>>>>>> Like I said, before you go organization bashing and flap your lips,
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> should probably ask someone in ACB who knows about it. There's been
>>>>>> things that the NFB has voted against too, I'm sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/19/2012 10:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>>> Arielle: that was a great post.
>>>>>>> I just have one question about this.
>>>>>>> If our philosophies aren't at odds, then why did the ACB vote, "Do
>>>>>>> Not
>>>>>>> Pass," on the "Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act,"
>>>>>>> resolution at their convention?
>>>>>>> Evidently, they're okay with disabled workers being paid below the
>>>>>>> federally mandated minimum wage.
>>>>>>> Hmmm!
>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/19/12, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>> I think Sean's description of "NFB philosophy" as he sees it was
>>>>>>>> excellent. I would also add two things:
>>>>>>>> 1. I don't think the NFB has a patent on this philosophy. In fact,
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> would argue that most committed ACB members and many other
>>>>>>>> successful
>>>>>>>> blind people who choose not to affiliate with organizations also
>>>>>>>> espouse the positive philosophy of blindness that Sean described.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> NFB has chosen to make this philosophy a central focus, but that
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> not mean that non-NFB members cannot live by it themselves or
>>>>>>>> encourage others to accept it. It is important to remember that the
>>>>>>>> ACB split off from the NFB, and although I am not an expert on what
>>>>>>>> happened, everything I've read about the split suggests that it
>>>>>>>> occurred because of disagreements about how leadership in the
>>>>>>>> organization should be structured, not about fundamental philosophy
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> blindness. In more recent years the NFB and ACB have taken
>>>>>>>> differing
>>>>>>>> approaches to some policy issues, but that does not necessarily
>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>> that their core philosophies of blindness are at odds. I don't
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> the two organizations should merge into one super-organization of
>>>>>>>> blind Americans because I like the fact that individuals have
>>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>> about which organization to join and that there's not one big group
>>>>>>>> monopolizing the organizational stage. But I also think that the
>>>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>>>> and ACB have more in common in terms of their goals for changing
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> it means to be blind than we might think on first glance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. To address Marc's point about universal design: In the nine
>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> have been a part of the NFB, I have observed that the NFB
>>>>>>>> increasingly
>>>>>>>> takes a pragmatic dualistic approach to promoting both individual
>>>>>>>> coping with accessibility barriers and advocacy to bring them down.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> would urge you to read the NFB 2012 resolutions once they become
>>>>>>>> available online, and you will find that most of these resolutions
>>>>>>>> address access barriers in one form or another and advocate for
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> removal. I believe the NFB is moving further in the direction of
>>>>>>>> pushing for accessibility and I have seen change on this front even
>>>>>>>> since the time when I first joined nine years ago. However, though
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> are committed to doing what we can to promote universal access for
>>>>>>>> blind people, we also are aware that, realistically, it will take
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> for all those in power to make it happen. In the meantime, we are
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> working to help blind individuals figure out how to adapt to those
>>>>>>>> barriers we are not yet able to control. For example, we will fight
>>>>>>>> for full access to educational technology, but instead of waiting
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> enroll in college until this access happens, we will also work to
>>>>>>>> harness the support of human readers and other adaptations so that
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> can still be successful in spite of these barriers. In other words,
>>>>>>>> instead of pitting individual adaptation and universal design
>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>> each other as mutually exclusive options, why not take a dual
>>>>>>>> approach
>>>>>>>> toward both of these goals?
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/19/12, Justin Salisbury <PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I have a few notes for a few different people on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tyler:
>>>>>>>>> I understand the hesitancy about getting involved when you don't
>>>>>>>>> fully
>>>>>>>>> agree
>>>>>>>>> with everything that everyone else believes.  I once had that
>>>>>>>>> hesitation
>>>>>>>>> about getting involved with organized religion.  I started going
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> campus
>>>>>>>>> ministry at my college because a friend sold me on the free
>>>>>>>>> dinner,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> quickly learned that no church is homogenous in beliefs.  In some
>>>>>>>>> churches,
>>>>>>>>> the leadership will try like mad to perpetuate the idea that
>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> church believes exactly what they do and that anyone who disagrees
>>>>>>>>> slightly
>>>>>>>>> is against them.  In my church, we aren't like that, and we
>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> people have differing views.  We unite under the idea that it's
>>>>>>>>> okay
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> disagree on individual issues and discuss them, but we have
>>>>>>>>> generally
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> same core beliefs.
>>>>>>>>> That's how we are in the Federation.  If you don't agree with
>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>> we're doing, I'll make an effort to help you come to terms with it
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> that's my individual personality.  I often find that, when someone
>>>>>>>>> disagrees
>>>>>>>>> with something we're doing, it is because of a lack of
>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> we're doing or the underlying issue.  At the end of the day, I
>>>>>>>>> won't
>>>>>>>>> shun
>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marc Workman:
>>>>>>>>>     Of course we, in the Federation, fight to break down the
>>>>>>>>> barriers.
>>>>>>>>> Why
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> you think we do legislative lobbying?  Washington Seminar is an
>>>>>>>>> absolutely
>>>>>>>>> amazing experience, and you should try it!  We honor adaptability
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> there's no sense in being helpless in the meantime while we work
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>> barriers.
>>>>>>>>> On the mention of Sean's place in social stratification:  I am a
>>>>>>>>> colored
>>>>>>>>> person, I'm the first person in my family to go to college, and I
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> bother wallowing in the lack of advantage that I face because of
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> Quite
>>>>>>>>> frankly, I'm not even convinced that I am disadvantaged by being a
>>>>>>>>> colored
>>>>>>>>> person.  With the first generation college student part, I have to
>>>>>>>>> seek
>>>>>>>>> mentors in the academic process from outside my family, and I know
>>>>>>>>> many,
>>>>>>>>> many educated Federationists who have eagerly fulfilled that role
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>> Lastly, I've made comments like "i've had this conversation with
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> before"
>>>>>>>>> in a public manner to other people-trust me, I have-but I've
>>>>>>>>> realized
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> retrospect that it only creates distance between everyone who
>>>>>>>>> hears
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> myself.  A lot of people take that as an implied personal attack.
>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> saying Sean took it that way, but I'm sure plenty of people did
>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs, I loved reading this part of your email:
>>>>>>>>> In my book, there is no larger crime than depriving someone of
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> dreams
>>>>>>>>> and the second biggest crime is taking away the chance for people
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> reach
>>>>>>>>> for those dreams. For while there are dreams, there is hope. With
>>>>>>>>> hope
>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>> always has enough energy to turn the corner and keep going.  The
>>>>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> is that hope and the rock and refuge that is always there for me
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yours in Federationism,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Justin Salisbury
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Justin M. Salisbury
>>>>>>>>> Class of 2012
>>>>>>>>> B.A. in Mathematics
>>>>>>>>> East Carolina University
>>>>>>>>> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>> the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”
>>>>>>>>> —MARGARET
>>>>>>>>> MEAD
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>>>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool;
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Ty
>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>>> that
>>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that
>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
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>
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