[nabs-l] NFB Philosophy

Fri Jul 20 14:59:37 UTC 2012

Thank you, Tyler! You summed up, in one message, the reason I haven't been
active on this list in so long, and ultimately the reason I am a "closet
federationist", for all intents and purposes. It's absolutely humiliating
to associate publicly with the NFB when so many people think (with good
reason) that the majority of us are as you described. I support the NFB
because I've experienced first hand the sort of good an organization of
this size and caliber can do to fight discrimination and injustice towards
the blind. I support the ACB, as well, in their efforts to do likewise. It
really shouldn't be about dogmatic belief systems or voting one way or
another on issues simply because that's what the superiors in your
organization of affiliation would do. It isn't a black or white, yes or no
answer to questions like "Should we have accessible currency?" "Should we
use canes or guide dogs?" "Is paratransit good or bad?" "Should I use
braille or speech to read this?" "Am I blind or visually impaired", and so
on and so on and so forth... Some of the comments I get from people in
either organization, contributors to this list not excluded, would lead you
to believe that each organization has a document somewhere with all of
these questions and their respective answers listed on it, and the most
die-hard members read it before they go to bed every night. In reality, it
is our underlying philosophies about blindness that guide us in answering
these questions for ourselves. This could mean different interpretations of
philosophy and different answers even within the same group, but it's
better that way. It creates free thinkers who are able and willing to argue
their beliefs and change them as needed in a world that is constantly
changing.

That brings me to this voting argument. Whether or not an organization
votes yes on something depends on how that something fits into its
underlying philosophy and whether it contributes effectively to achieving
its short and long term goals. Voting no for something that seems like it
would be an absolute good for the blindness community, like fair wages or
accessible currency, may in fact be a small move in a much bigger political
game than you realize, with the anticipated outcome being a better
opportunity to achieve better for the blind later on. We choose our
battles. You can't win at everything when you're dealing with politics, and
sometimes it's more worthwhile to hold back on certain issues while putting
your resources towards others. At one point, accessible currency was an
important issue to the ACB and they were pushing for it. The NFB obviously
thought the issue was important, too, or they would have let the ACB fight
for it. For what ever reason, the NFB felt it was important to postpone the
adoption of accessible currency. Maybe they felt that it would hinder their
efforts in another area, like employment equality or something they needed
those government dollars to go towards more urgently than making...
accessible dollars, like improving the library of congress. What I'm saying
is that on the personal level and on the organizational level, there's more
involved in decision making and voting than a simple yes or no answer on a
single issue. You need to look more at the bigger picture, look at the
whole game board, and not just the space immediately in front of you, and
then I think you'd see a lot more congruity between the NFB, ACB, and their
respective members.

All the best,

Jamie Principato

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Joshua Lester <
jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:

> What?
> After he posted on N toFB-Talk, saying that he was leaving them?
> Wow!
> Thanks, Joshua
>
> On 7/20/12, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thank you, Tyler. Those were my thoughts exactly. One thing you've got
> > slightly wrong though is that the new money identifiers really aren't
> > clunky. The IBill, in fact, can easily fit into your pocket. Then you
> > just slide a bill into it and it identifies it for you. It can respond
> > by vibration, a series of beeps, or by speaking the denomination of
> > the bill. I have one of them, and not only is it inexpensive, but it
> > works well.
> > On the issue of accessible currency, I'm not in favor of that, either.
> > For one thing, it would take quite awhile for the old money to be
> > phased out. It would remain in circulation for years, thus you would
> > still have the old, inaccessible bills handed to you in most cases for
> > a long time. Second, think of how many things would have to be
> > modified--vending machines, cash registers, even things like arcade
> > games that might take dollar bills, all to fit the new currency. That
> > would be extremely costly. God knows that the government doesn't have
> > the money to spend on something like that. No, they're too busy
> > wasting it on pointless crap...Everything to do with every other
> > country's business, never stepping up to help our own people.
> > Back on topic, as far as the NFB's philosophy goes, I have to agree
> > with what Arielle said about not needing to be in an organization for
> > or of the blind to have a positive attitude about blindness. That's
> > like saying that one must be religious to have morals. No, I don't
> > want to know if people think that's true or false--I've heard enough
> > of that debate to last a lifetime--I'm just saying it to make a point.
> > While some people are certainly bolstered by being members of such an
> > organization, gaining something from being surrounded by like-minded
> > individuals, that's definitely not me. I'm not a member of either
> > organization, nor do I intend on becoming one. I use listservs of both
> > because I think that, like the core philosophy, the exchange of ideas,
> > support and thoughts should not be limited to what team you play for
> > so to speak. For the most part, it isn't. We're all people, and we all
> > deserve to be heard, no matter what flag we wave in the name of our
> > own self-discovery.
> > Oh, and Joshua, get your facts straight. Michael Capell decided to
> > stay with the ACB. I really don't think you should spread rumors about
> > people without knowing the whole story.
> >
> > On 7/20/12, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
> >> Josh,
> >> you really are an idiot. It's not to often that I just drop all sarcasm
> >> and really go for it, but I have to.
> >> You start out introducing nothing to the list but bad information and
> >> one-line "I agree," "I have those too," then you jump into bashing me
> >> when I ask about the philosophy of NFB. From there, we move into "Dam
> >> the ACB for not voting for fair wages. NFB voted against something, but
> >> hey, that's ok because we'd put the manufacturers of equipment and
> >> software out of business," and we go on to "omg it would cost lots of
> >> money to make this accessible."
> >>
> >> It's people like you who drive people away. Maybe you did just get
> >> Michael capell, congratulations, but there are people that switch back
> >> and forth all the time. If you have to wait for someone like Sean and
> >> the others on this list to give you an intelligent cogent philosophy you
> >> can grab on to as a lifeline so you can hop back up on your
> >> self-righteous confederationist soapbox, then all the more power to you.
> >> Might I propose though, that you go from being a mindless
> >> confederationist zombie who spews random crap and calls it fact, and
> >> actually consider thinking for yourself. Your arguments for the NFB not
> >> passing the accessible money is not logical at all. In fact, if I
> >> remember correctly, you were one of the ones screaming about things
> >> costing to much a few messages back.
> >>
> >> I don't want what I said to be taken as an attack on the NFB, either. I
> >> believe every organization has good members who can give good, valid
> >> information like Sean, Arielle and others have, but they also have a
> >> high percentage of mindless bafoons, like our dear friend, as well.
> >>
> >> I understand that it would cost money to make currency brailled and
> >> accessible, but hey, on the flip-side, it would cost money to pay
> >> disabled people fair wages, too, so lets just drop that, because we
> >> can't have something costing money now, can we?
> >>
> >> As for my idea of currency, I really have no idea how this would work
> >> out, since the braille could get smashed. Maybe there could be a strip
> >> of thicker paper at one end of the bill that would have the braille on
> >> it; it would not prevent it from getting pushed down, but it would
> >> certainly help, and we wouldn't have to walk around with one of them
> >> clunky expensive money readers, or hold the bill in front of the IPhone
> >> for 5 minutes rotating it every which direction until it picks it up and
> >> announces it.
> >> On 7/19/2012 11:43 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
> >>> Also, do you know how much it would cost to make the money accessible?
> >>> My idea, when Alan Ramos first presented it to me, was a Brailled
> >>> currency.
> >>> What is your idea of accessible currency?
> >>> I'm curious!
> >>> Thanks, Joshua
> >>>
> >>> On 7/20/12, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
> >>>> I did attend the convention. I did not, however go to every general
> >>>> session from 8 to 5.
> >>>> But hey. lets bash the ACB for not voting for fair wages, for whatever
> >>>> reason they did, but not make money accessible because gosh, we sure
> >>>> don't want to put the manufacturers of a program out of business. Your
> >>>> logic is flawless, my friend.
> >>>> On 7/19/2012 11:20 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
> >>>>> Well, did you attend the convention?
> >>>>> You should know!
> >>>>> I'm not "bashing," but am concerned that they claim to be of the
> >>>>> blind, but they vote against fair wages.
> >>>>> BTW, they voted for the accessible currency, but we voted against it.
> >>>>> I've heard from both sides of the issue, and I take the NFB's
> >>>>> position, because accessible currency would put the manufacturers of
> >>>>> the IBill out of business.
> >>>>> Blessings, Joshua
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 7/20/12, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Josh,
> >>>>>> Like I said, before you go organization bashing and flap your lips,
> >>>>>> you
> >>>>>> should probably ask someone in ACB who knows about it. There's been
> >>>>>> things that the NFB has voted against too, I'm sure.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 7/19/2012 10:30 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
> >>>>>>> Arielle: that was a great post.
> >>>>>>> I just have one question about this.
> >>>>>>> If our philosophies aren't at odds, then why did the ACB vote, "Do
> >>>>>>> Not
> >>>>>>> Pass," on the "Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act,"
> >>>>>>> resolution at their convention?
> >>>>>>> Evidently, they're okay with disabled workers being paid below the
> >>>>>>> federally mandated minimum wage.
> >>>>>>> Hmmm!
> >>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 7/19/12, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>> I think Sean's description of "NFB philosophy" as he sees it was
> >>>>>>>> excellent. I would also add two things:
> >>>>>>>> 1. I don't think the NFB has a patent on this philosophy. In fact,
> >>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> would argue that most committed ACB members and many other
> >>>>>>>> successful
> >>>>>>>> blind people who choose not to affiliate with organizations also
> >>>>>>>> espouse the positive philosophy of blindness that Sean described.
> >>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>> NFB has chosen to make this philosophy a central focus, but that
> >>>>>>>> does
> >>>>>>>> not mean that non-NFB members cannot live by it themselves or
> >>>>>>>> encourage others to accept it. It is important to remember that
> the
> >>>>>>>> ACB split off from the NFB, and although I am not an expert on
> what
> >>>>>>>> happened, everything I've read about the split suggests that it
> >>>>>>>> occurred because of disagreements about how leadership in the
> >>>>>>>> organization should be structured, not about fundamental
> philosophy
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> blindness. In more recent years the NFB and ACB have taken
> >>>>>>>> differing
> >>>>>>>> approaches to some policy issues, but that does not necessarily
> >>>>>>>> mean
> >>>>>>>> that their core philosophies of blindness are at odds. I don't
> >>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>> the two organizations should merge into one super-organization of
> >>>>>>>> blind Americans because I like the fact that individuals have
> >>>>>>>> choices
> >>>>>>>> about which organization to join and that there's not one big
> group
> >>>>>>>> monopolizing the organizational stage. But I also think that the
> >>>>>>>> NFB
> >>>>>>>> and ACB have more in common in terms of their goals for changing
> >>>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>> it means to be blind than we might think on first glance.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2. To address Marc's point about universal design: In the nine
> >>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> have been a part of the NFB, I have observed that the NFB
> >>>>>>>> increasingly
> >>>>>>>> takes a pragmatic dualistic approach to promoting both individual
> >>>>>>>> coping with accessibility barriers and advocacy to bring them
> down.
> >>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> would urge you to read the NFB 2012 resolutions once they become
> >>>>>>>> available online, and you will find that most of these resolutions
> >>>>>>>> address access barriers in one form or another and advocate for
> >>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>> removal. I believe the NFB is moving further in the direction of
> >>>>>>>> pushing for accessibility and I have seen change on this front
> even
> >>>>>>>> since the time when I first joined nine years ago. However, though
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> are committed to doing what we can to promote universal access for
> >>>>>>>> blind people, we also are aware that, realistically, it will take
> >>>>>>>> time
> >>>>>>>> for all those in power to make it happen. In the meantime, we are
> >>>>>>>> also
> >>>>>>>> working to help blind individuals figure out how to adapt to those
> >>>>>>>> barriers we are not yet able to control. For example, we will
> fight
> >>>>>>>> for full access to educational technology, but instead of waiting
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> enroll in college until this access happens, we will also work to
> >>>>>>>> harness the support of human readers and other adaptations so that
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> can still be successful in spite of these barriers. In other
> words,
> >>>>>>>> instead of pitting individual adaptation and universal design
> >>>>>>>> against
> >>>>>>>> each other as mutually exclusive options, why not take a dual
> >>>>>>>> approach
> >>>>>>>> toward both of these goals?
> >>>>>>>> Arielle
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 7/19/12, Justin Salisbury <PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> I have a few notes for a few different people on this thread.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tyler:
> >>>>>>>>> I understand the hesitancy about getting involved when you don't
> >>>>>>>>> fully
> >>>>>>>>> agree
> >>>>>>>>> with everything that everyone else believes.  I once had that
> >>>>>>>>> hesitation
> >>>>>>>>> about getting involved with organized religion.  I started going
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> campus
> >>>>>>>>> ministry at my college because a friend sold me on the free
> >>>>>>>>> dinner,
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> quickly learned that no church is homogenous in beliefs.  In some
> >>>>>>>>> churches,
> >>>>>>>>> the leadership will try like mad to perpetuate the idea that
> >>>>>>>>> everyone
> >>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> church believes exactly what they do and that anyone who
> disagrees
> >>>>>>>>> slightly
> >>>>>>>>> is against them.  In my church, we aren't like that, and we
> >>>>>>>>> understand
> >>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> people have differing views.  We unite under the idea that it's
> >>>>>>>>> okay
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> disagree on individual issues and discuss them, but we have
> >>>>>>>>> generally
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> same core beliefs.
> >>>>>>>>> That's how we are in the Federation.  If you don't agree with
> >>>>>>>>> something
> >>>>>>>>> we're doing, I'll make an effort to help you come to terms with
> it
> >>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>> that's my individual personality.  I often find that, when
> someone
> >>>>>>>>> disagrees
> >>>>>>>>> with something we're doing, it is because of a lack of
> >>>>>>>>> understanding
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>>> we're doing or the underlying issue.  At the end of the day, I
> >>>>>>>>> won't
> >>>>>>>>> shun
> >>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Marc Workman:
> >>>>>>>>>     Of course we, in the Federation, fight to break down the
> >>>>>>>>> barriers.
> >>>>>>>>> Why
> >>>>>>>>> do
> >>>>>>>>> you think we do legislative lobbying?  Washington Seminar is an
> >>>>>>>>> absolutely
> >>>>>>>>> amazing experience, and you should try it!  We honor adaptability
> >>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>> there's no sense in being helpless in the meantime while we work
> >>>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>> barriers.
> >>>>>>>>> On the mention of Sean's place in social stratification:  I am a
> >>>>>>>>> colored
> >>>>>>>>> person, I'm the first person in my family to go to college, and I
> >>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>> bother wallowing in the lack of advantage that I face because of
> >>>>>>>>> it.
> >>>>>>>>> Quite
> >>>>>>>>> frankly, I'm not even convinced that I am disadvantaged by being
> a
> >>>>>>>>> colored
> >>>>>>>>> person.  With the first generation college student part, I have
> to
> >>>>>>>>> seek
> >>>>>>>>> mentors in the academic process from outside my family, and I
> know
> >>>>>>>>> many,
> >>>>>>>>> many educated Federationists who have eagerly fulfilled that role
> >>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> me.
> >>>>>>>>> Lastly, I've made comments like "i've had this conversation with
> >>>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>> before"
> >>>>>>>>> in a public manner to other people-trust me, I have-but I've
> >>>>>>>>> realized
> >>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> retrospect that it only creates distance between everyone who
> >>>>>>>>> hears
> >>>>>>>>> me
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> myself.  A lot of people take that as an implied personal attack.
> >>>>>>>>> I'm
> >>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>> saying Sean took it that way, but I'm sure plenty of people did
> >>>>>>>>> read
> >>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> way.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs, I loved reading this part of your email:
> >>>>>>>>> In my book, there is no larger crime than depriving someone of
> >>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>> dreams
> >>>>>>>>> and the second biggest crime is taking away the chance for people
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> reach
> >>>>>>>>> for those dreams. For while there are dreams, there is hope. With
> >>>>>>>>> hope
> >>>>>>>>> life
> >>>>>>>>> always has enough energy to turn the corner and keep going.  The
> >>>>>>>>> NFB
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> me
> >>>>>>>>> is that hope and the rock and refuge that is always there for me
> >>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> need
> >>>>>>>>> it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Yours in Federationism,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Justin Salisbury
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Justin M. Salisbury
> >>>>>>>>> Class of 2012
> >>>>>>>>> B.A. in Mathematics
> >>>>>>>>> East Carolina University
> >>>>>>>>> president at alumni.ecu.edu
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
> >>>>>>>>> can
> >>>>>>>>> change
> >>>>>>>>> the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”
> >>>>>>>>> —MARGARET
> >>>>>>>>> MEAD
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Take care,
> >>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
> >>>>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> >>>>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> >>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool;
> >>>>>> he
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> dares not reason is a slave.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> >>>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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> >>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Take care,
> >>>> Ty
> >>>> http://tds-solutions.net
> >>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> >>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> >>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool;
> he
> >>>> that
> >>>> dares not reason is a slave.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> >>>> nabs-l:
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> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-l mailing list
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> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Take care,
> >> Ty
> >> http://tds-solutions.net
> >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
> >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
> >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
> >> that
> >> dares not reason is a slave.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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> >> nabs-l:
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> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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