From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Jun 1 01:48:34 2012 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 20:48:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Take Megabus to Dallas for a Buck References: <4fc779d5.220fb60a.0f8b.03d2@mx.google.com><005d01cd3f3e$1a3b0450$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><008701cd3f60$8e5444b0$aafcce10$@yahoo.com><-1332926017037352492@unknownmsgid> <26CD83A50F084C27A0F11B6C865C8609@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <001301cd3f98$a8229530$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Ashley and everyone, Not only that but they only allow one checked bag per passenger. We were considering using them to come to the convention until we found out this nasty little secret on their Web site. If you travel light it's not a problem but if you need to bring one suitcase containing your personal belongings, a DJ pack with your recording gear and another pack with your speakers you're screwed. Back in the days of Greyhound and Trailways both companies allowed one to check multiple bags through without having to pay a fee as the airlines now do. Greyhound still allows one to check multiple bags through to their intended destination. just wanted to give everyone a heads-up on this point. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Take Megabus to Dallas for a Buck Hi, I heard this service does come to DC. Brice is right, you would need to transfer buses a lot. I suggest flying instead if at all affordable to you. -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:24 PM To: raydar11011 at yahoo.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Take Megabus to Dallas for a Buck Hi, I am not very familiar with the service, but it looks like you could possibly megabus it from DC to knoxville, and then take a bus from Knoxville to Memphis. Then it's a straight shot from Memphis to Dallas. If you're really committed, your best option is to play around on the website and see what connects to what. at some point though you've just got to ask yourself, is it really worth it? Brice Sent from my iPhone On May 31, 2012, at 3:07 PM, Reinhard Stebner wrote: > Right, but I cannot take mega bus from D. C. It looks like it is region > based. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Peter Donahue > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Take Megabus to Dallas for a Buck > > Hello everyone, > > Here it is: > http://www.megabus.com > > As a sort of trivia how many of you remember the days of multiple > over-the-road inter city bus services? We grew up in the era of Greyhound > and Trailways. Some folks preferred Trailways but I always liked Greyhound > better. Greyhound is also rolling out busses with more room for > passengers, > wifi and outlets but am not sure if they'll have them in Texas by the > national convention. Megabus here we come! > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Koby Cox" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 9:01 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Take Megabus to Dallas for a Buck > > > There Is no link in this email message. Please attach the link > and repost this to the list. > Thanks, > Koby. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raydar11011%40yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From nfbcsblog at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 11:54:57 2012 From: nfbcsblog at gmail.com (Community Service Blog) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 06:54:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for community service stories for June Message-ID: Please pass the following announcement on to anyone you think would be interested. Have you volunteered at a summer camp? A sports camp? Done another type of service project during those hot summer months? We want to hear about it! The Community Service Group is looking for summer-themed service stories To feature on its blog at nfbcommunityservice.wordpress.com. You can start sending in your stories immediately. Stories should be no more than 500 words. Stories should be submitted by June 23 to ensure inclusion in the blog during the month of June, but this is a month-long event. In keeping with the theme, we want to feature stories throughout the month, so feel free to send them in any time between now and the 23rd. Send stories as an attachment or in the body of a message to nfbcsblog at gmail.com. Be sure to include your name, state, and a title with each submission. I look forward to reading about your experiences. Chris Parsons Blog Coordinator, Community Service Group From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Jun 1 20:47:34 2012 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 15:47:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Mega Bus and Extra Baggage, Message-ID: <002201cd4037$c6144ad0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, Yesterday I expressed concern regarding Mega Bus's policy concerning extra baggage. I contacted their customer service department to discuss this with them. I'm relieved to know that we'll be able to bring all of our large bags including the sound system on Mega Bus. Their surplus checked luggage policy works like this: Put simply additional pieces of checked baggage are treated like another passenger. Using the current promotion being run in Texas I had to buy 4 seats for Mary, myself, and the two additional bags we're bringing I.e. the sound system and speakers. Since what I did in effect is buy an extra seat for each of us these bags can be carried in the hold, or they can ride on the seat next to us. I'd rather keep that DJ pack where I can be sure it's going to ride okay anyway. The whole business cost us $11.00 round-trip. That includes our own seats and the fee for the extra baggage. We won't complain about that. See y'all in Dallas. Peter Donahue “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper.” Isaiah 54:17 “While for our princes they prepare In caverns deep a burning snare, He shot from heaven a piercing ray, And the dark treachery brought to day.” Anonymous From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 20:51:31 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 13:51:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Someone looking for blind people to take part in a fun little study Message-ID: <84F01553E96349DC8F6EFDBA08629C5C@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, This is sort of off topic, but there is someone doing research for how blind people navigate Virtual worlds. He wants people that haven’t had much experience playing IF or Muds. His message is below: Begin quote: Hello! I'm doing research on text based online roleplaying games. It is specifically about parameters of immersion for blind and sighted players. If you are interested in participating in a small study about this, I would be happy, if you could aid me. It would be good, if you wouldn't have too much experience in playing Interactive Fiction or Multi-User-Dungeons, though. The tests will be conducted throughout June and can be done at home, though with a skype or phone connection to me. The whole test shouldn't take longer than one and a half hour. If you are interested in participating, please drop me an email: katta at frimble.net and then we can sort out the specifics. Thanks in advance. katta End quote. To move it more on topic though, I think playing IF and Muds as well as other audio games are the best way for one to learn the computer. I’ve often wondered why VI instructors try teaching Jaws doing these deathly boring exercises when all they need to do is set up VIP Mud and let the person go... In the process one learns how to use alt commands, moving using tab, moving through pages using the arrow keys, reading with both the page up and down, home and end keys and in order to get Jaws to sound like they want, it requires they explore the Jaws dictionary. Also when playing Muds it’s a given that players will develop the ability to type extremely fast and their knowledge of the keyboard will become so second nature they will be able to hit any key without thinking about it. Playing Muds in particular also leads one to become more familiar with scripting for software which often leads to an interest in programming. Because the STEM fields are feared by many blind individuals, being able to have a first hand experience on how not scary software engineering is a fantastic way to guide blind students to garner a passion for computers. Thank you, Brandon Keith Biggs From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 22:40:35 2012 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 18:40:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Someone looking for blind people to take part in a fun little study In-Reply-To: <84F01553E96349DC8F6EFDBA08629C5C@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <84F01553E96349DC8F6EFDBA08629C5C@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Sounds like a good survey. Too bad I have more than a decade of experience with textbased games like this. Oh well --Jewel Sent from my iPhone On Jun 1, 2012, at 4:51 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: > Hello, > This is sort of off topic, but there is someone doing research for how blind people navigate Virtual worlds. He wants people that haven’t had much experience playing IF or Muds. His message is below: > > Begin quote: > Hello! > > I'm doing research on text based online roleplaying games. It is specifically about parameters of immersion for blind and sighted players. If you are interested in participating in a small study about this, I would be happy, if you could aid me. It would be good, if you wouldn't have too much experience in playing Interactive Fiction or Multi-User-Dungeons, though. > > The tests will be conducted throughout June and can be done at home, though with a skype or phone connection to me. The whole test shouldn't take longer than one and a half hour. > > If you are interested in participating, please drop me an email: katta at frimble.net and then we can sort out the specifics. > > Thanks in advance. > katta > End quote. > > To move it more on topic though, I think playing IF and Muds as well as other audio games are the best way for one to learn the computer. I’ve often wondered why VI instructors try teaching Jaws doing these deathly boring exercises when all they need to do is set up VIP Mud and let the person go... In the process one learns how to use alt commands, moving using tab, moving through pages using the arrow keys, reading with both the page up and down, home and end keys and in order to get Jaws to sound like they want, it requires they explore the Jaws dictionary. Also when playing Muds it’s a given that players will develop the ability to type extremely fast and their knowledge of the keyboard will become so second nature they will be able to hit any key without thinking about it. > Playing Muds in particular also leads one to become more familiar with scripting for software which often leads to an interest in programming. Because the STEM fields are feared by many blind individuals, being able to have a first hand experience on how not scary software engineering is a fantastic way to guide blind students to garner a passion for computers. > Thank you, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 00:33:58 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 20:33:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [talkshopchatters] sharing convention stories In-Reply-To: <1338578197.92026.YahooMailClassic@web162006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1338578197.92026.YahooMailClassic@web162006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e901cd4057$67773350$366599f0$@gmail.com> FYI; an interesting conference for those of you who have been to a convention and/or are attending one this year. This conference announcement comes from Anmol, one of our fellow Federationists from Arkansas. By the way, the number for the Conversation Station is 616-883-2999. I hope to see some of you tomorrow night! Chris From: talkshopchatters at yahoogroups.com [mailto:talkshopchatters at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anmol Bhatia Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 3:17 PM To: talkshopchatters at yahoogroups.com Subject: [talkshopchatters] sharing convention stories Have you ever attended an ACB or an NFB convention? Will you be attending your first NFB or ACB convention? Well the sharing convention stories may be for you. Tomorrow Saturday June 2, at 8:00 Eastern, 7:00 Central p.m. in room 11 (Ron's room), we will be sharing our NFB/ACB convention stories. If you have been to the NFB or ACB or both conventions, come and share the good, the bad, and the ugly of attending an ACB/NFB convention regardless of whether you are going to an convention this year or not. If you have never been to an convention, come and learn from those who have so that you know what to expect. After calling the Conversation Station, press pound to enter the main minue, press 1 to enter live rooms, and then press 11 to enter Ron's room. See you tomorrow. Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: Visit Your Group Description: Image removed by sender. Yahoo! Groups Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use . Description: Image removed by sender. __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 359 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 332 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dandrews at visi.com Sat Jun 2 03:31:20 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 22:31:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: NVDA screen reader News: NVDA 2012.2rc2 released Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 15:48:42 +1000 >To: NVDA announcement mailing list >From: NVDA announcement list >Subject: NVDA screen reader News: NVDA 2012.2rc2 released > >NVDA 2012.2rc2 has just been released. This is a release candidate, >which means that unless any critical issues are found, this will be >almost identical to the final 2012.2 release. > >We encourage all interested people to test and provide feedback >before the final release in a week from now. > >For more information and download links, please visit: >http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2012.2rc2Released > >_______________________________________________ >Nvda-announce mailing list >Nvda-announce at lists.nvaccess.org >http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-announce From hhamraz at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 09:54:58 2012 From: hhamraz at gmail.com (Hamid Hamraz) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 14:24:58 +0430 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Message-ID: Dear all, I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought about these: 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) 2. Headphone 3. Scanner 4. Printer 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large figures/diagrams) 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of some very little tremor in my hands and fingers). If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. Many thanks, Hamid From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 14:59:30 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 07:59:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90C7E758A17449E593004C5C517AA821@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, You may want to ask the programL list, it's a list of blind programmers who could let you know what they used going through college. Thank you, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Hamid Hamraz Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 2:54 AM To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Dear all, I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought about these: 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) 2. Headphone 3. Scanner 4. Printer 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large figures/diagrams) 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of some very little tremor in my hands and fingers). If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. Many thanks, Hamid _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From nabs.president at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 19:21:34 2012 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:21:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Notes for May Message-ID: Good afternoon, Please find attached, as well as pasted below, the NABS monthly bulletin for May. Thanks, Sean NABS Notes May 2012 In this edition of NABS’ monthly bulletin: 1. Convention Rundown 2. Win an iPad 3, Serotek's DocuScan Plus, or Sweet iPhone Accessories 3. You Like Facebook? 4. Congratulations to Oklahoma 5. State Updates 6. Meeting Minutes Convention Rundown National Convention is but one short month away, and, as part of the festivities in Dallas, NABS will be hosting three events of which we would like to make all of you aware. On Saturday June 30 from 9:00pm to midnight, NABS will be hosting an open house social in the Affiliate Action Suite, room 2372 (located on the tower side of the hotel(. This is a great opportunity to come out and chat with fellow students and meet new people. Plenty of NABS board members and state division leaders will be on hand as well. So if you have ideas about what you would like to see NABS doing or how we might strengthen the organization, definitely bring those along, too. Free snacks and soft drinks will be provided. Drop in and drop out whenever you wish, but be sure to drop by! NABS will, of course, also be holding our annual business meeting. The meeting will take place from 7:00pm to 10:00 on Sunday, July 1. Registration will open at 6:15, and the meeting will start promptly at 7:00. This year our meeting will be held in the Stemmons Ballroom in the Atrium lobby. This is a change from past years in Dallas when our meeting was on the tower side, so take note and don't autopilot yourself to the wrong place! We are still finalizing the agenda for the meeting, and will circulate it as soon as we have it available. Finally, NABS will be hosting our Monte Carlo fundraiser on Wednesday, July 4 from 8:00pm to 11:30. The action will be taking place in the Morocco Room in the Tower mezzanine. For $10 participants will get a bag of chips to go play Texas Hold'em, blackjack, and other card games. Bring your friends, or come make some new ones! A cash bar will be available. Come on out and support your fellow students and the work we do in NABS! We are still looking for folks to help out with staffing our exhibit hall table, as well as with marshalling and Monte Carlo Night. If you would like to volunteer to help out, please contact convention logistics coordinator Darian Smith at dsmithnfb at gmail.com. Volunteering is a great chance to meet new people, and, we dare say, it can even be fun! Win an iPad 3, Serotek's DocuScan Plus or Sweet iPhone Accessories NABS is raffling off a new iPad 3, a DocuScan Plus cloud-based OCR package, and an iPhone accessories pack, which includes a bluetooth keyboard, extended battery case and screen protector, this year in Dallas. The winner will have their choice among the items, and second and third place winners will choose between the others. Tickets cost $5, or 5 for $20. If you will not be in Dallas, but would like to purchase tickets, you can send a check, as well as your name and phone number or email address, to: Sean Whalen 320 23rd St S Apt. 826 Arlington, VA 22202 Checks must be received in the mail by Wednesday June 27 to be assured entry. Cash or money orders will be accepted as well. If you would like to assist NABS with the sale of tickets, please send an email to Sean Whalen at nabs.president at gmail.com, or give him a call at 608 332-4147, and we will get you hooked up! You Like Facebook? So, do you have mad Facebooking skills? Are you looking for a way to help strengthen chapters and affiliates of the NFB? Well, then we've got an opportunity for you! The NFB Communications Committee is undertaking a project to get all NFB affiliates and chapters up on Facebook by the end of 2012. In order to achieve this worthy goal, the committee is looking for people who would be willing to assist. Knowing that students are all about the book, the committee reached out to NABS to enlist our support. If anybody would be willing to help by building Facebook pages, maintaining them, or training others on how to do either, your help would be most appreciated. If you have interest in this project, or if you simply have questions, please contact Sean at nabs.president at gmail.com or 608 332-4147. This is a great way for NABS to offer our talents and skills to the movement, so let's get as many FB gurus on this project as possible! Congratulations to Oklahoma We are excited to announce that the Oklahoma Association of Blind Students has recently come into being! Congratulations to President Eric Holland and the entire board on being elected. Special thanks go out to Trey Lewis and NFB of Oklahoma President Jeannie Massay for working to make this newest division of NABS happen. We look forward to working closely with the OK students! State Announcements Note: All announcements are printed below as they were received from their senders. No effort to edit for content, grammar or clarity has been made on the part of NABS. Missouri: The Missouri Association of Blind Students will be selling raffle tickets during the beginning part of the week of convention - Saturday through Wednesday afternoon. The raffle is to raise funds to help kick start this new addition to NABS. The winners of the raffle (there will be two) will get the exclusive opportunity to have breakfast in the Presidential suite the morning of Thursday, July 5 with none other than Dr Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind and his wife Patricia. The two winners will be drawn Wednesday afternoon of convention at 6:00pm, and said winners will be contacted immediately. Raffle tickets can be purchased from any MABS member. They will be $2 apiece and one can purchase three for $5. These members include Bethany Bennington president of MABS Julie Miginity, Julie Salih, Chris Parsons, and Haley Korff. North Carolina: The North Carolina Association of Blind Students (NCABS) would like to begin this announcement by congratulating three of our students on their graduation in May: Alan Chase, Treasurer, Master of Education in Special Education Justin Salisbury, President, Bachelor of Arts in Mathematics Brice Smith, Bachelor of Arts in Communication: Public Relations NCABS will be sponsoring two officers to attend the 2012 National Federation of the Blind Convention in Dallas, Texas. NCABS prioritizes and supports national engagement in our members and leaders. NCABS is preparing for our second-annual student track at the 2012 NFB of NC State Convention. Last year, we brought in many presenters for our student track. This year, we will focus on the talents and skill sets of members within our division and still include some presenters. We are considering an Apple product showcase, bead work, and a discussion of transit systems. We are eager to add anything that will enhance our experience and are open to suggestions as our programming continues to evolve. We are most grateful to the board of the NFB of NC for affording us the opportunity to have a student track at the state convention and special discounted rates for students to attend the state convention. Meeting Minutes Please find the minutes for NABS’ May 2012 board meeting pasted below. As always, please do not hesitate to contact me with any questions, concerns or suggestions. The NABS Board works for you, and we want to know how we’re doing! Thanks for reading, and we’ll be back in June. Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com National Association of Blind Students Board Meeting Minutes May 20, 2012 Meeting called to order at 8:40 P.M. Members Present: Sean Whalen Karen Anderson Darian Smith Cindy Bennett Candice Chapman Meghan Whalen Committee Reports Fundraising: Another meeting will be held tomorrow. There is decent progress in finding items to be raffled at convention. They are looking to have all of the items by the beginning of June so tickets can be sold by convention. People do not have to be present to win. A possible fundraiser would include selling homemade slate holder. Templates would be brought to convention, and orders would be taken and sent out. Membership: they had a math call and the high school committee had a call about socializing and school dances. There will be a call about convention, and another may deal with the airport and possibly combining them. Darian is looking for board members to represent NABS on the convention call. Slate: Articles are being collected for the next issue which will come out a few weeks before convention. There has been a discussion on the NABS list about a want for financial articles. So we are looking for anyone knowledgeable about financial aid and college finance issues, and we are interested in them writing an article. Website: Progress is being made on the resource list and enhancing their descriptions. Meghan is thinking of starting a recipe posting on the website to post easy-to-make/able-to-make in the dorm recipes. The membership database is almost ready. Sean is working on the verification process necessary for PayPal. Southwest: Utah requested a rep, but the request was sent 2 weeks before their convention, and NABS was unable to affordably send someone. Tickets were over $450. Southeast: Florida wants a rep, but the convention is on Memorial Day weekend. Shelby is unable to go for free, and many flights are booked. NABS never got an official request. Sean will talk to Nallym before a final decision is made. Old Business Leadership seminar: Sean is working on connecting with Dr. Maurer to try to finalize the part he will play in the leadership seminar. There are a lot of financial cutbacks, so that might compromise funding for the leadership seminar. We are waiting to see if national is going to be able to cover the cost, and will hold off with further planning until we have a definite thumbs up that the seminar is still a go. National convention: Darian and Mica Baugh will take care of the tabling schedule and gathering volunteers for Monte Carlo, tabling, and marshals. Monte Carlo will be on July 4. New Business Annual business meeting: We have received a few requests for time on the agenda. A conference call will ensue to discuss the agenda. Much discussion was held on the election process. Cindy made a motion: Elections at the 2012 annual business meeting will first be conducted with a voice vote, and if the winner cannot be determined by a majority voice vote, then a group of paid sighted counters will be used to count. Meghan seconded, and the motion passed. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NABS Notes May 2012.doc Type: application/msword Size: 44544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu Sat Jun 2 20:53:25 2012 From: PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu (Justin Salisbury) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 20:53:25 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Message-ID: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7CE146@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Hamid: I respectfully disagree with your notion that blind people are inherently less productive in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) coursework. I lost my vision during high school and can relate to the initial lack of competitiveness caused by the lack of blindness skills. Note that I am saying that it is not because of blindness but because of the lack of adaptive techniques. I just finished my BA in Mathematics in the normal four years with a GPA of 3.918. I don't look at this as a special accomplishment; it is something that we should all expect blind people to be capable of doing. If you are not able to move efficiently through coursework in your field, I urge you to work to acquire the blindness skills that you need in order to become more efficient. I notice that you still depend heavily on your vision, and non-visual skills may be what you need to be competitive. I will be attending the Louisiana Center for the Blind in a few months for a program that will help me enhance my non-visual skills significantly to make me competitive and efficient for the long term. I may be able to get through school still depending on my vision, but depending on my residual vision is not a practical long-term solution. I want to use non-visual skills during my graduate program so that, when I am working, I can call upon academic experiences where I was using the non-visual techniques. Some excellent rehabilitation centers that you may wish to consider are the Louisiana Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, BLIND, Inc, and Blind Industries and Services of Maryland. Many more exist, too. Whatever you choose to do, I wish you the best of luck. Justin Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD From dandrews at visi.com Sat Jun 2 21:13:23 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 16:13:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Web Accessibility Project Testing Message-ID: > >Dave, > > Can you please circulate the following email as you find appropriate? > > At the beginning of this quarter, I wrote that I was working on > a web accessibility project. The project is now almost complete, > and I am looking for volunteers to help test it. Please email me > off list if you are interested. My email is > ntorcolini at wavecable.com. > >Thanks, >Nicole From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 03:42:36 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 23:42:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> Hamid, I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a private liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as I did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication and psychology. School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, TVI, obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large print or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did not have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I know we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it slowly at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways of doing things. Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you come from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious your vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you have RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. However, I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my secondary one for reading. I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a description. So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we do not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can see large print well without fatigue. BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you have hand trimmers. I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a lot. I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille note, a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records books on CD and digital form. It is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their library. If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can use an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which plays daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw things in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and openbook. If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might have more suggestions. Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The first four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see than standard loose leaf paper. 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you do not have lined paper. 3. large print ruler 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take math classes 5. a CCTV, it’s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it and it magnifies print on the screen 6. a digital recorder Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general stores. You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is in red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both colors. Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well and find useful. Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hamid Hamraz Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Dear all, I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought about these: 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) 2. Headphone 3. Scanner 4. Printer 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large figures/diagrams) 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of some very little tremor in my hands and fingers). If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. Many thanks, Hamid _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 3 04:01:36 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 23:01:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> References: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> Message-ID: What about contacting these guys, to get your books in Braille, if that's what you prefer? http://www.mbvol.org Just wondering! Joshua On 6/2/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hamid, > I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a private > liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as I > did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the > stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other > barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication and > psychology. > School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have > access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, TVI, > obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large print > or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. > Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did not > have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did > despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! > I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I know > we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it slowly > at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways of > doing things. > > Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your > computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first > semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you > come > from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the > blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious your > vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you have > RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the > benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. However, > I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my > secondary one for reading. > I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the > heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a description. > So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we do > not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille > effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can see > large print well without fatigue. > BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you > have hand trimmers. > > I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more > general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you > in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. > > You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a lot. > I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille note, > a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records > books on CD and digital form. It > is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. > I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you > might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their library. > If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can use > an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which plays > daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. > > These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw things > in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study > computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. > You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and openbook. > If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might have > more suggestions. > > Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The first > four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. > Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. > > 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see than > standard loose leaf paper. > 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and > write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you do > not have lined paper. > 3. large print ruler > 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take > math classes > 5. a CCTV, it’s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it and > it magnifies print on the screen > 6. a digital recorder > > Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general stores. > You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for > drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is in > red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both colors. > Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well and > find useful. > > Good luck. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hamid Hamraz > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM > To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed > > Dear all, > > I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the > upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got > visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate > courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are > remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. > > Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me > suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order > VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought > about these: > > 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) > 2. Headphone > 3. Scanner > 4. Printer > 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large > figures/diagrams) > 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) > 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys > > Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of some > very little tremor in my hands and fingers). > > If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. > > Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. > > Many thanks, > > Hamid > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 04:43:11 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 21:43:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: References: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5980DBEB038040989655CFF0F3B7EB7B@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, If you're a computer programmer, you may not like mainstream products. For example I can't stand the victor readers and I'm only getting an Apex because it's the smallest 32 celled PDA out there. But for programming, getting your hands on a Braille+ would be heaven as it runs on a Linux operating system and it uses Python in its sours code. They opened up a developer package, so one is able to develop their own apps for the BP and the commands are very programmer friendly. The only thing that I've heard is hard in a computer engineer class is soldering the small wires to the different hardware pieces without touching anything. Other than that, programming blind is just as fast if not faster than programming sighted. But really join the program list. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed What about contacting these guys, to get your books in Braille, if that's what you prefer? http://www.mbvol.org Just wondering! Joshua On 6/2/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hamid, > I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a > private > liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as > I > did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the > stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other > barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication and > psychology. > School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have > access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, > TVI, > obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large > print > or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. > Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did > not > have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did > despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! > I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I > know > we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it slowly > at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways > of > doing things. > > Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your > computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first > semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you > come > from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the > blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious > your > vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you > have > RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the > benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. > However, > I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my > secondary one for reading. > I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the > heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a description. > So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we do > not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille > effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can see > large print well without fatigue. > BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you > have hand trimmers. > > I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more > general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you > in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. > > You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a lot. > I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille > note, > a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records > books on CD and digital form. It > is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. > I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you > might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their > library. > If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can > use > an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which > plays > daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. > > These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw things > in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study > computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. > You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and > openbook. > If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might have > more suggestions. > > Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The first > four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. > Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. > > 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see > than > standard loose leaf paper. > 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and > write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you > do > not have lined paper. > 3. large print ruler > 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take > math classes > 5. a CCTV, it’s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it and > it magnifies print on the screen > 6. a digital recorder > > Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general stores. > You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for > drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is > in > red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both > colors. > Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well > and > find useful. > > Good luck. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hamid Hamraz > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM > To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed > > Dear all, > > I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the > upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got > visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate > courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are > remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. > > Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me > suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order > VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought > about these: > > 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) > 2. Headphone > 3. Scanner > 4. Printer > 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large > figures/diagrams) > 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) > 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys > > Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of > some > very little tremor in my hands and fingers). > > If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. > > Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. > > Many thanks, > > Hamid > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From anthony at olivero.us Sun Jun 3 04:43:41 2012 From: anthony at olivero.us (Tony Olivero) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 23:43:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: References: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hamid, I have to agree with what has been said previously. I do not believe that we are inherrantly slower in computer studies subjects. in fact, if you were to consult the National Federation of the blind in computer Science (a division of the NFB), you would find a number of folks there who have competed on par with their sighted counterparts. What makes the difference is the alternative techniques of blindness we use to accomplish the assignments. While my experiences are in undergraduate coursework, I believe they are still relevant and may give you some things to think about when considering how you want to proceed. In 2001 I entered into a computer science program at Winona State University in Minnesota. At the time, I was primarily using magnification software to use my computer and a combination of scanning and an electronic video magnifier to read materials. I will point out that I knew of screen reading software like JAWS, and could even use it, but I was still laboring under the impression that magnifying my computer screen to nine times it's normal size was faster and more efficient. It didn't take long before my grades caught up with me and gave my ego a thorough beating. It became clear to me, in the form of an academic suspension letter, that I was not in a place where I could be an effective, officient, or competetive college student. In the following years, I realized that I needed to get over my hangups and use the alternative techniques of blindness in order to be a productive person. In the winter of 2010 i reentered a college undergraduate program. now that I am relying on screen reading technology, electronic versions of text, and occasionally brailled materials, I am having a much more successful experience. I am also more willing to learn the material when I have methods of taking it in that do not leave me frustrated and exhausted (especially helpful when one is also working full time :)). I understand that you are not a braille user, but I would strongly urge you to consider learning to use a speech output program instead of relying on magnification. I think you will, after a little adjustment time, come to find it is a more efficient, pleasant, and productive experience. While I personally cannot speak to any experiences at an NFB training center, others on this list can. Adjustment to blindness training may be something you would find benefitial too. Taking a little time now to learn these techniques, and then entering your graduate program, will likely leave you in a place where you feel more comfortable with yourself, and your ability to complete your assignments. I know that if I hadn't taken the time to perfect my use of nonvisual technology, I would not be effective at either my job, or my academic studies. I'm glad to see you have come to the NFB and NABS to ask quesstions. This organization is all about mentoring others and passing along or experiences in the hopes that you may learn from them, and yes even from our mistakes. Is there a chance you will be attending our national convention in dallas this year? If you have the opportunity you will be able to interact with many folks who are in computer related fields and can draw upon their wisdom as well. I hope my thoughts have given you something to consider. please don't hesitate to ask any further questions you may have. Regards, Tony On 6/2/12, Joshua Lester wrote: > What about contacting these guys, to get your books in Braille, if > that's what you prefer? > http://www.mbvol.org > Just wondering! > Joshua > > On 6/2/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hamid, >> I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a >> private >> liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as >> I >> did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the >> stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other >> barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication >> and >> psychology. >> School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have >> access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, >> TVI, >> obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large >> print >> or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. >> Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did >> not >> have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did >> despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! >> I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I >> know >> we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it >> slowly >> at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways >> of >> doing things. >> >> Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your >> computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first >> semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you >> come >> from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the >> blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious >> your >> vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you >> have >> RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the >> benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. >> However, >> I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my >> secondary one for reading. >> I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the >> heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a >> description. >> So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we >> do >> not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille >> effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can >> see >> large print well without fatigue. >> BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you >> have hand trimmers. >> >> I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more >> general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you >> in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. >> >> You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a >> lot. >> I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille >> note, >> a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records >> books on CD and digital form. It >> is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. >> I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you >> might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their >> library. >> If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can >> use >> an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which >> plays >> daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. >> >> These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw >> things >> in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study >> computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. >> You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and >> openbook. >> If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might >> have >> more suggestions. >> >> Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The >> first >> four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. >> Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. >> >> 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see >> than >> standard loose leaf paper. >> 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and >> write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you >> do >> not have lined paper. >> 3. large print ruler >> 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take >> math classes >> 5. a CCTV, it’s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it >> and >> it magnifies print on the screen >> 6. a digital recorder >> >> Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general >> stores. >> You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for >> drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is >> in >> red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both >> colors. >> Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well >> and >> find useful. >> >> Good luck. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hamid Hamraz >> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM >> To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed >> >> Dear all, >> >> I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the >> upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got >> visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate >> courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are >> remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. >> >> Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me >> suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order >> VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've >> thought >> about these: >> >> 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) >> 2. Headphone >> 3. Scanner >> 4. Printer >> 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very >> large >> figures/diagrams) >> 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) >> 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys >> >> Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of >> some >> very little tremor in my hands and fingers). >> >> If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. >> >> Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Hamid >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anthony%40olivero.us > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 04:47:39 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 00:47:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <5980DBEB038040989655CFF0F3B7EB7B@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> <5980DBEB038040989655CFF0F3B7EB7B@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Where do you get the Braille Plus? I've heard of the braille sense, but maybe you mean something different. -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:43 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Hello, If you're a computer programmer, you may not like mainstream products. For example I can't stand the victor readers and I'm only getting an Apex because it's the smallest 32 celled PDA out there. But for programming, getting your hands on a Braille+ would be heaven as it runs on a Linux operating system and it uses Python in its sours code. They opened up a developer package, so one is able to develop their own apps for the BP and the commands are very programmer friendly. The only thing that I've heard is hard in a computer engineer class is soldering the small wires to the different hardware pieces without touching anything. Other than that, programming blind is just as fast if not faster than programming sighted. But really join the program list. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed What about contacting these guys, to get your books in Braille, if that's what you prefer? http://www.mbvol.org Just wondering! Joshua On 6/2/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hamid, > I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a > private > liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as I > did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the > stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other > barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication and > psychology. > School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have > access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, > TVI, > obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large > print > or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. > Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did > not > have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did > despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! > I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I > know > we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it slowly > at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways > of > doing things. > > Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your > computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first > semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you > come > from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the > blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious > your > vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you > have > RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the > benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. > However, > I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my > secondary one for reading. > I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the > heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a description. > So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we do > not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille > effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can see > large print well without fatigue. > BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you > have hand trimmers. > > I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more > general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you > in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. > > You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a lot. > I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille > note, > a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records > books on CD and digital form. It > is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. > I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you > might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their > library. > If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can > use > an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which > plays > daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. > > These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw things > in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study > computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. > You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and > openbook. > If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might have > more suggestions. > > Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The first > four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. > Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. > > 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see > than > standard loose leaf paper. > 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and > write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you > do > not have lined paper. > 3. large print ruler > 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take > math classes > 5. a CCTV, it’s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it and > it magnifies print on the screen > 6. a digital recorder > > Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general stores. > You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for > drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is > in > red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both > colors. > Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well > and > find useful. > > Good luck. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hamid Hamraz > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM > To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed > > Dear all, > > I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the > upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got > visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate > courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are > remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. > > Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me > suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order > VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought > about these: > > 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) > 2. Headphone > 3. Scanner > 4. Printer > 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large > figures/diagrams) > 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) > 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys > > Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of > some > very little tremor in my hands and fingers). > > If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. > > Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. > > Many thanks, > > Hamid > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 05:03:23 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 01:03:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: References: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4E6F00DDEA6343CC9EBD1ADE46199D87@OwnerPC> Hi Tony and all, I think it takes us slightly longer to do our work. It may take longer to understand and grasp concepts. I believe it is doable and would encourage the pursuit of CS if you want it, but it is taught visually and I bet it would take longer. Next, I don't think everyone should jump on this person for not having adaquate skills. If you read the message, she or he stated the hand trimmers make braille ineffective; reading through the lines, I would guess this person already tried braille. Second, this person said they can use jaws and openbook already. Third, based on the equipment list, I gather that she/he is seeking alternative ways to do work but is unsure what else he/she can use to help out. This person is coming to the US to study and therefore may not know what all is available and cannot use all we use. Remember NLS, for instance, only serves Americans. Other blindness resources may have resident requirements too. Often low vision strategies do take longer because we cannot see the whole picture. Low vision people have either central or perpherial vision and therefore cannot see the whole thing at once. But I'd also argue that using tactile techniques also takes time to skim the page. I mean, come on, your five fingers can only feel so much at once! Being visually impaired, I've done both. What I'm saying is you do take longer to look at something tactially whereas a sighted person sees the whole diagram, chart, etc at once. I think we should get more info from Hamid as to what she/he can do and specific questions. So then he/she knows where to get these resources and may choose to seek training if he/she needs it. We have no clue if Hamid is using other alternative techniques like a cane; we do know, however, that Hamid has tried braille and can use jaws and openbook. It sounds like based on the little we know that Hamid is adjusting to vision loss alright and willing to use alternative techniques. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Tony Olivero Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:43 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Hamid, I have to agree with what has been said previously. I do not believe that we are inherrantly slower in computer studies subjects. in fact, if you were to consult the National Federation of the blind in computer Science (a division of the NFB), you would find a number of folks there who have competed on par with their sighted counterparts. What makes the difference is the alternative techniques of blindness we use to accomplish the assignments. While my experiences are in undergraduate coursework, I believe they are still relevant and may give you some things to think about when considering how you want to proceed. In 2001 I entered into a computer science program at Winona State University in Minnesota. At the time, I was primarily using magnification software to use my computer and a combination of scanning and an electronic video magnifier to read materials. I will point out that I knew of screen reading software like JAWS, and could even use it, but I was still laboring under the impression that magnifying my computer screen to nine times it's normal size was faster and more efficient. It didn't take long before my grades caught up with me and gave my ego a thorough beating. It became clear to me, in the form of an academic suspension letter, that I was not in a place where I could be an effective, officient, or competetive college student. In the following years, I realized that I needed to get over my hangups and use the alternative techniques of blindness in order to be a productive person. In the winter of 2010 i reentered a college undergraduate program. now that I am relying on screen reading technology, electronic versions of text, and occasionally brailled materials, I am having a much more successful experience. I am also more willing to learn the material when I have methods of taking it in that do not leave me frustrated and exhausted (especially helpful when one is also working full time :)). I understand that you are not a braille user, but I would strongly urge you to consider learning to use a speech output program instead of relying on magnification. I think you will, after a little adjustment time, come to find it is a more efficient, pleasant, and productive experience. While I personally cannot speak to any experiences at an NFB training center, others on this list can. Adjustment to blindness training may be something you would find benefitial too. Taking a little time now to learn these techniques, and then entering your graduate program, will likely leave you in a place where you feel more comfortable with yourself, and your ability to complete your assignments. I know that if I hadn't taken the time to perfect my use of nonvisual technology, I would not be effective at either my job, or my academic studies. I'm glad to see you have come to the NFB and NABS to ask quesstions. This organization is all about mentoring others and passing along or experiences in the hopes that you may learn from them, and yes even from our mistakes. Is there a chance you will be attending our national convention in dallas this year? If you have the opportunity you will be able to interact with many folks who are in computer related fields and can draw upon their wisdom as well. I hope my thoughts have given you something to consider. please don't hesitate to ask any further questions you may have. Regards, Tony On 6/2/12, Joshua Lester wrote: > What about contacting these guys, to get your books in Braille, if > that's what you prefer? > http://www.mbvol.org > Just wondering! > Joshua > > On 6/2/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hamid, >> I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a >> private >> liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as >> I >> did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the >> stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other >> barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication >> and >> psychology. >> School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have >> access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, >> TVI, >> obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large >> print >> or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. >> Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did >> not >> have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did >> despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! >> I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I >> know >> we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it >> slowly >> at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways >> of >> doing things. >> >> Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your >> computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first >> semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you >> come >> from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the >> blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious >> your >> vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you >> have >> RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the >> benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. >> However, >> I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my >> secondary one for reading. >> I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the >> heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a >> description. >> So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we >> do >> not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille >> effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can >> see >> large print well without fatigue. >> BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you >> have hand trimmers. >> >> I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more >> general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you >> in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. >> >> You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a >> lot. >> I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille >> note, >> a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records >> books on CD and digital form. It >> is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. >> I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you >> might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their >> library. >> If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can >> use >> an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which >> plays >> daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. >> >> These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw >> things >> in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study >> computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. >> You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and >> openbook. >> If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might >> have >> more suggestions. >> >> Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The >> first >> four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. >> Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. >> >> 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see >> than >> standard loose leaf paper. >> 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and >> write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you >> do >> not have lined paper. >> 3. large print ruler >> 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take >> math classes >> 5. a CCTV, it’s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it >> and >> it magnifies print on the screen >> 6. a digital recorder >> >> Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general >> stores. >> You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for >> drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is >> in >> red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both >> colors. >> Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well >> and >> find useful. >> >> Good luck. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hamid Hamraz >> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM >> To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed >> >> Dear all, >> >> I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the >> upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got >> visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate >> courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are >> remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. >> >> Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me >> suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order >> VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've >> thought >> about these: >> >> 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) >> 2. Headphone >> 3. Scanner >> 4. Printer >> 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very >> large >> figures/diagrams) >> 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) >> 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys >> >> Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of >> some >> very little tremor in my hands and fingers). >> >> If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. >> >> Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Hamid >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anthony%40olivero.us > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 05:04:34 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 01:04:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <5980DBEB038040989655CFF0F3B7EB7B@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> <5980DBEB038040989655CFF0F3B7EB7B@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <41509FAC9A394CB7AC0ECEB394F250CE@OwnerPC> Brandon, What is your major? Haven't seen you here til recently. -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:43 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Hello, If you're a computer programmer, you may not like mainstream products. For example I can't stand the victor readers and I'm only getting an Apex because it's the smallest 32 celled PDA out there. But for programming, getting your hands on a Braille+ would be heaven as it runs on a Linux operating system and it uses Python in its sours code. They opened up a developer package, so one is able to develop their own apps for the BP and the commands are very programmer friendly. The only thing that I've heard is hard in a computer engineer class is soldering the small wires to the different hardware pieces without touching anything. Other than that, programming blind is just as fast if not faster than programming sighted. But really join the program list. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed What about contacting these guys, to get your books in Braille, if that's what you prefer? http://www.mbvol.org Just wondering! Joshua On 6/2/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hamid, > I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a > private > liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as I > did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the > stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other > barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication and > psychology. > School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have > access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, > TVI, > obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large > print > or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. > Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did > not > have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did > despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! > I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I > know > we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it slowly > at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways > of > doing things. > > Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your > computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first > semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you > come > from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the > blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious > your > vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you > have > RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the > benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. > However, > I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my > secondary one for reading. > I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the > heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a description. > So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we do > not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille > effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can see > large print well without fatigue. > BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you > have hand trimmers. > > I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more > general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you > in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. > > You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a lot. > I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille > note, > a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records > books on CD and digital form. It > is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. > I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you > might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their > library. > If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can > use > an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which > plays > daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. > > These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw things > in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study > computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. > You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and > openbook. > If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might have > more suggestions. > > Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The first > four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. > Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. > > 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see > than > standard loose leaf paper. > 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and > write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you > do > not have lined paper. > 3. large print ruler > 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take > math classes > 5. a CCTV, it’s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it and > it magnifies print on the screen > 6. a digital recorder > > Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general stores. > You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for > drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is > in > red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both > colors. > Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well > and > find useful. > > Good luck. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hamid Hamraz > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM > To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed > > Dear all, > > I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the > upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got > visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate > courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are > remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. > > Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me > suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order > VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought > about these: > > 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) > 2. Headphone > 3. Scanner > 4. Printer > 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large > figures/diagrams) > 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) > 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys > > Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of > some > very little tremor in my hands and fingers). > > If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. > > Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. > > Many thanks, > > Hamid > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 07:30:52 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 00:30:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <41509FAC9A394CB7AC0ECEB394F250CE@OwnerPC> References: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC><5980DBEB038040989655CFF0F3B7EB7B@BrandonsLaptop2> <41509FAC9A394CB7AC0ECEB394F250CE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hello, I'm training to be an Opera singer, but I do all kinds of stuff... Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 10:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Brandon, What is your major? Haven't seen you here til recently. -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:43 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Hello, If you're a computer programmer, you may not like mainstream products. For example I can't stand the victor readers and I'm only getting an Apex because it's the smallest 32 celled PDA out there. But for programming, getting your hands on a Braille+ would be heaven as it runs on a Linux operating system and it uses Python in its sours code. They opened up a developer package, so one is able to develop their own apps for the BP and the commands are very programmer friendly. The only thing that I've heard is hard in a computer engineer class is soldering the small wires to the different hardware pieces without touching anything. Other than that, programming blind is just as fast if not faster than programming sighted. But really join the program list. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed What about contacting these guys, to get your books in Braille, if that's what you prefer? http://www.mbvol.org Just wondering! Joshua On 6/2/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hamid, > I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a > private > liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as I > did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the > stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other > barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication and > psychology. > School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have > access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, > TVI, > obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large > print > or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. > Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did > not > have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did > despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! > I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I > know > we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it slowly > at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways > of > doing things. > > Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your > computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first > semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you > come > from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the > blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious > your > vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you > have > RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the > benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. > However, > I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my > secondary one for reading. > I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the > heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a description. > So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we do > not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille > effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can see > large print well without fatigue. > BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you > have hand trimmers. > > I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more > general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you > in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. > > You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a lot. > I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille > note, > a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records > books on CD and digital form. It > is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. > I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you > might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their > library. > If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can > use > an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which > plays > daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. > > These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw things > in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study > computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. > You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and > openbook. > If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might have > more suggestions. > > Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The first > four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. > Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. > > 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see > than > standard loose leaf paper. > 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and > write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you > do > not have lined paper. > 3. large print ruler > 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take > math classes > 5. a CCTV, it’s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it and > it magnifies print on the screen > 6. a digital recorder > > Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general stores. > You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for > drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is > in > red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both > colors. > Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well > and > find useful. > > Good luck. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hamid Hamraz > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM > To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed > > Dear all, > > I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the > upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got > visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate > courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are > remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. > > Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me > suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order > VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought > about these: > > 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) > 2. Headphone > 3. Scanner > 4. Printer > 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large > figures/diagrams) > 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) > 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys > > Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of > some > very little tremor in my hands and fingers). > > If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. > > Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. > > Many thanks, > > Hamid > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 15:30:39 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:30:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? Message-ID: <4fcb8351.64ad320a.643d.69e3@mx.google.com> I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully someone can help. Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. Beth From kobycox at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 16:47:17 2012 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:47:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: <4fcb8351.64ad320a.643d.69e3@mx.google.com> References: <4fcb8351.64ad320a.643d.69e3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Who will It be for? Koby Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth wrote: > I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully someone can help. > > Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 17:22:54 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 13:22:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Message-ID: <4fcb9d8c.f122340a.76cb.6019@mx.google.com> Hi Hamid, It turns out that NABS has recently had a conference call on how we handle math as blind people, which was very informative for all involved. The recording of the call has been posted on www.nabslinkaudio.org. I encourage you to check it out! Hope this helps, Chris Nusbaum "For we walk by faith, not by sight." 2 Corinthians 5:7 Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hamid Hamraz" ,"National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the part of. :) Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Koby wrote: I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully someone can help. Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. Beth _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo se%40gmail.com From kobycox at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 17:51:47 2012 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:51:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: <4fcba135.288c320a.52d3.73f9@mx.google.com> References: <4fcba135.288c320a.52d3.73f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Okay. Koby Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Beth wrote: > Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the part of. :) > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koby To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:47:17 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? > > Who will It be for? > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth wrote: > > I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully someone can help. > > Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 18:16:52 2012 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:16:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: <4fcba135.288c320a.52d3.73f9@mx.google.com> References: <4fcba135.288c320a.52d3.73f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Maybe I'm going to sound dumb here, but why should who it's for affect this lady's ability to get the lyrics? On 6/3/12, Beth wrote: > Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing > I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can > understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the > part of. :) > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koby To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:47:17 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going > on? > > Who will It be for? > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth > wrote: > > I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, > and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully > someone can help. > > Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if > anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need > You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. > I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next > wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google > recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my > Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates > MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has > the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send > them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Sent via gmail.com Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com Skype: joshgregory93 twitter: JoshG93 From kobycox at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 19:36:03 2012 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 13:36:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: References: <4fcba135.288c320a.52d3.73f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I don't no. Koby Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:16 PM, josh gregory wrote: > Maybe I'm going to sound dumb here, but why should who it's for affect > this lady's ability to get the lyrics? > > On 6/3/12, Beth wrote: >> Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing >> I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can >> understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the >> part of. :) >> Beth >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Koby > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:47:17 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going >> on? >> >> Who will It be for? >> Koby >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth >> wrote: >> >> I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, >> and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully >> someone can help. >> >> Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if >> anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need >> You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. >> I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next >> wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google >> recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my >> Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates >> MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has >> the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send >> them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma >> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >> se%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Sent via gmail.com > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > Skype: joshgregory93 > twitter: JoshG93 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 20:11:00 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 13:11:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: References: <4fcba135.288c320a.52d3.73f9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000a01cd41c4$ffc1d160$ff457420$@gmail.com> Dear Beth, I'm not sure what's going on with your ability to send an email to the music list. Are you sure that you've typed in the correct address? And first of all, are you subscribed to that list? If you aren't typing in the list name right, which you might not be, it is: musictlk at nfbNet.org; as in m-u-s-I-c-t-l-k, at nfbNet.org, without dashes or anything in between music and the TLK part. If you are indeed sending the email with the right address, then that is a problem that either you could investigate further with your e-mail client and Internet Service provider (ISP), which I don't think it is, or David Andrews could investigate further about this problem, if you could explain your situation. Thanks, and hope this helps you! Humberto -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Koby Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? I don't no. Koby Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:16 PM, josh gregory wrote: > Maybe I'm going to sound dumb here, but why should who it's for affect > this lady's ability to get the lyrics? > > On 6/3/12, Beth wrote: >> Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing >> I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can >> understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the >> part of. :) >> Beth >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Koby > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:47:17 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going >> on? >> >> Who will It be for? >> Koby >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth >> wrote: >> >> I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, >> and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully >> someone can help. >> >> Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if >> anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need >> You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. >> I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next >> wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google >> recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my >> Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates >> MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has >> the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send >> them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma >> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >> se%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Sent via gmail.com > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > Skype: joshgregory93 > twitter: JoshG93 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 3 20:12:56 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:12:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: <000a01cd41c4$ffc1d160$ff457420$@gmail.com> References: <4fcba135.288c320a.52d3.73f9@mx.google.com> <000a01cd41c4$ffc1d160$ff457420$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'll test the list. Blessings, Joshua On 6/3/12, Humberto Avila wrote: > Dear Beth, > > I'm not sure what's going on with your ability to send an email to the > music > list. Are you sure that you've typed in the correct address? And first of > all, are you subscribed to that list? If you aren't typing in the list name > right, which you might not be, it is: > musictlk at nfbNet.org; as in m-u-s-I-c-t-l-k, at nfbNet.org, without dashes > or > anything in between music and the TLK part. > If you are indeed sending the email with the right address, then that is a > problem that either you could investigate further with your e-mail client > and Internet Service provider (ISP), which I don't think it is, or David > Andrews could investigate further about this problem, if you could explain > your situation. > > Thanks, and hope this helps you! > > Humberto > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Koby > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:36 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? > > I don't no. > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:16 PM, josh gregory wrote: > >> Maybe I'm going to sound dumb here, but why should who it's for affect >> this lady's ability to get the lyrics? >> >> On 6/3/12, Beth wrote: >>> Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing >>> I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can >>> understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the >>> part of. :) >>> Beth >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Koby >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Date sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:47:17 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going >>> on? >>> >>> Who will It be for? >>> Koby >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth >>> wrote: >>> >>> I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, >>> and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully >>> someone can help. >>> >>> Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if >>> anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need >>> You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. >>> I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next >>> wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google >>> recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my >>> Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates >>> MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has >>> the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send >>> them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. >>> Beth >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma >>> il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>> se%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Sent via gmail.com >> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> Skype: joshgregory93 >> twitter: JoshG93 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 3 20:14:45 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:14:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: References: <4fcba135.288c320a.52d3.73f9@mx.google.com> <000a01cd41c4$ffc1d160$ff457420$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've just tested it, and didn't get a failure reply. Blessings, Joshua On 6/3/12, Joshua Lester wrote: > I'll test the list. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/3/12, Humberto Avila wrote: >> Dear Beth, >> >> I'm not sure what's going on with your ability to send an email to the >> music >> list. Are you sure that you've typed in the correct address? And first of >> all, are you subscribed to that list? If you aren't typing in the list >> name >> right, which you might not be, it is: >> musictlk at nfbNet.org; as in m-u-s-I-c-t-l-k, at nfbNet.org, without dashes >> or >> anything in between music and the TLK part. >> If you are indeed sending the email with the right address, then that is >> a >> problem that either you could investigate further with your e-mail client >> and Internet Service provider (ISP), which I don't think it is, or David >> Andrews could investigate further about this problem, if you could >> explain >> your situation. >> >> Thanks, and hope this helps you! >> >> Humberto >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Koby >> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:36 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? >> >> I don't no. >> Koby >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:16 PM, josh gregory wrote: >> >>> Maybe I'm going to sound dumb here, but why should who it's for affect >>> this lady's ability to get the lyrics? >>> >>> On 6/3/12, Beth wrote: >>>> Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing >>>> I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can >>>> understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the >>>> part of. :) >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Koby >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>> Date sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:47:17 -0600 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going >>>> on? >>>> >>>> Who will It be for? >>>> Koby >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, >>>> and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully >>>> someone can help. >>>> >>>> Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if >>>> anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need >>>> You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. >>>> I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next >>>> wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google >>>> recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my >>>> Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates >>>> MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has >>>> the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send >>>> them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma >>>> il.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >>>> se%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent via gmail.com >>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>> twitter: JoshG93 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 20:39:18 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 16:39:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? Message-ID: <4fcbcb95.1043340a.40cc.7c91@mx.google.com> Hi Beth, I would try emailing Dave Andrews about this. Chris Nusbaum "For we walk by faith, not by sight." 2 Corinthians 5:7 Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Koby wrote: Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the part of. :) Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Koby wrote: I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully someone can help. Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. Beth _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo se%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 20:39:10 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 16:39:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Message-ID: <4fcbcb8d.1043340a.40cc.7c8d@mx.google.com> The=20Braille=20Plus=20is=20no=20longer=20being=20manufactured,=20but=20it'= s=20still=20 on=20the=20market.=20=20It=20is=20made=20by=20APH,=20so=20you=20might=20wan= t=20to=20check=20 with=20them. Chris=20Nusbaum "For=20we=20walk=20by=20faith,=20not=20by=20sight." 2=20Corinthians=205:7 Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Ashley=20Bramlett"=20=20wrote: =20Hamid, =20I'll=20start=20by=20saying=20=20that=20I=20graduated=20from=20Marymount= =20 university,=20a =20private =20liberal=20arts=20school,=20a=20few=20years=20ago.=20=20I=20combined=20st= udies=20for=20a=20 degree=20as=20I =20did=20not=20feel=20I=20could=20handle=20a=20full=20degree=20in=20psychol= ogy.=20=20At=20the=20 time=20the =20stats=20software,=20SPSS,=20was=20not=20accessible=20and=20I=20would=20h= ave=20faced=20 other =20barriers.=20=20My=20degree=20was=20in=20liberal=20studies=20with=20focus= =20in=20 communication=20and =20psychology. =20School=20is=20challenging=20at=20the=20post=20secondary=20level=20becaus= e=20you=20do=20 not=20have =20access=20to=20braille.=20=20In=20public=20school=20my=20Teacher=20of=20t= he=20vision=20 impaired, =20TVI, =20obtained=20my=20books=20in=20accessible=20format=20either=20audio,=20bra= ille=20or=20 large =20print =20or=20a=20combo=20of=20those=20as=20well=20as=20brailled=20any=20handouts= =20the=20class=20 received. =20Therefore=20when=20my=20sighted=20classmates=20got=20a=20worksheet,=20so= =20did=20I=20 and=20I=20did =20not =20have=20to=20wait=20for=20alternative=20forms=20of=20texts=20as=20I=20did= =20in=20college.=20=20 I=20did =20despite=20requesting=20electronic=20formats=20way=20in=20advance=20of=20= my=20 classes! =20I'm=20also=20not=20too=20active=20in=20NFB=20so=20my=20opinion=20may=20d= iffer=20from=20 others.=20=20I =20know =20we=20want=20to=20present=20a=20positive=20image,=20but=20IMO=20we=20may= =20have=20to=20take=20 it=20slowly =20at=20the=20beginning=20while=20adjusting=20to=20a=20new=20school,=20new= =20major,=20and=20 new=20ways =20of =20doing=20things. =20Anyway,=20that=20said,=20I=20wish=20you=20success=20in=20your =20computer=20science=20studies.=20=20You=20might=20want=20to=20do=20two=20= classes=20your=20 first =20semester.=20=20Where=20will=20you=20be=20studying?=20What=20country=20do= =20you =20come =20from=20and=20were=20you=20educated=20there=20in=20a=20mainstream=20class= =20or=20school=20 for=20the =20blind?=20Do=20you=20mind=20sharing=20what=20your=20vision=20impairment=20= is?=20Its=20 obvious =20your =20vision=20loss=20is=20new=20and=20I'm=20guessing=20probably=20a=20gradual= =20loss.=20=20 Maybe=20you =20have =20RP,=20retinitinis=20pigmentosa.=20=20I'm=20visually=20impaired=20too,=20= so=20I=20=20 know=20the =20benefits=20of=20seeing=20things=20where=20spatial=20relationships=20are= =20 involved. =20However, =20I=20also=20was=20taught=20braille=20and=20use=20that=20as=20my=20primary= =20medium=20and=20 print=20my =20secondary=20one=20for=20reading. =20I=20think=20by=20seeing=20something=20like=20say=20geometry=20figures=20= or=20a=20 diagram=20of=20the =20heart,=20I=20can=20better=20picture=20it=20than=20if=20I=20learned=20it= =20just=20by=20a=20 description. =20So,=20for=20some=20of=20us=20vision=20impaired=20people,=20using=20it=20= is=20effective=20 and=20we=20do =20not=20have=20to=20use=20all=20nonvisual=20ways.=20=20Because=20you=20can= not=20read=20 braille =20effectively,=20I=20think=20using=20your=20vision=20may=20help=20a=20lot= =20provided=20 you=20can=20see =20large=20print=20well=20without=20fatigue. =20BTW,=20you=20might=20be=20able=20to=20use=20jumbo=20braille=20a=20little= =20bit=20even=20 though=20you =20have=20hand=20trimmers. =20I=20do=20not=20know=20computer=20science=20or=20math=20majors=20so=20my= =20advice=20may=20 be=20more =20general=20and=20I'm=20imagining=20what=20might=20be=20useful=20to=20you =20in=20this=20program=20of=20study=20based=20on=20the=20little=20I=20know= =20of=20CS. =20You=20are=20right=20that=20getting=20special=20equipment=20will=20help=20= your=20 studies=20a=20lot. =20I=20use=20adaptive=20equipment=20all=20the=20time.=20=20For=20instance,= =20I=20love=20my=20 braille =20note, =20a=20portable=20PDA=20from=20humanware.=20=20In=20the=20US,=20we=20have=20= a=20service=20 that=20records =20books=20on=20CD=20and=20digital=20form.=20=20It =20is=20Learning=20Ally=20www.learningally.org. =20I=20do=20not=20know=20if=20they=20provide=20service=20to=20study=20abroa= d=20students,=20 but=20you =20might=20check=20on=20that.=20=20Learning=20ally=20may=20have=20your=20te= xtbooks=20in=20 their =20library. =20If=20you=20choose=20to=20use=20them,=20you=20might=20want=20to=20buy=20a= =20VR=20Stream=20and=20 you=20can =20use =20an=20sd=20card=20to=20play=20their=20books.=20=20You=20could=20also=20bu= y=20a=20vr=20stratus=20 which =20plays =20daisy=20cds.=20=20Both=20are=20available=20from=20humanware. =20These=20are=20some=20other=20ideas=20here.=20=20I=20know=20you=20will=20= need=20a=20way=20to=20 draw=20things =20in=20your=20CS=20studies.=20=20They=20use=20a=20lot=20of=20flow=20charts= =20and=20also=20if=20 you=20study =20computer=20programming=20that=20has=20a=20lot=20of=20visual=20stuff=20to= o. =20You=20already=20know=20about=20freedom=20scientific=20because=20you=20us= e=20jaws=20 and =20openbook. =20If=20you=20tell=20us=20how=20you=20plan=20to=20read=20your=20books=20and= =20take=20notes=20I=20 might=20have =20more=20suggestions. =20Let=20me=20know=20if=20you=20need=20or=20want=20to=20know=20where=20to=20= purchase=20these.=20=20 The=20first =20four=20items=20are=20available=20from=20APH,=20American=20printing=20hou= se=20for=20 the=20blind. =20Click=20on=20products=20and=20then=20low=20vision=20reading=20and=20writ= ing=20to=20 find=20these. =201.=20=20bold=20line=20paper=20or=20bold=20line=20notebook;=20these=20lin= es=20are=20 easier=20to=20see =20than =20standard=20loose=20leaf=20paper. =202.=20=20writing=20guides;=20these=20are=20templates=20which=20you=20slid= e=20a=20paper=20 into=20and =20write=20between=20the=20boxes=20of=20the=20template;=20good=20for=20writ= ing=20 straight=20if=20you =20do =20not=20have=20lined=20paper. =203.=20=20large=20print=20ruler =204.=20=20bold=20lined=20graph=20paper;=20might=20help=20as=20you=20draw=20= concepts=20or=20 if=20you=20take =20math=20classes =205.=20=20a=20CCTV,=20it=92s=20a=20magnifier=20that=20you=20put=20a=20pape= r=20or=20book=20 underneath=20it=20and =20it=20magnifies=20print=20on=20the=20screen =206.=20=20a=20digital=20recorder =20Other=20tools=20for=20writing=20or=20drawing=20diagrams=20you=20can=20ge= t=20at=20 general=20stores. =20You=20could=20use=20Mr.=20=20Sketch=20markers=20some.=20=20They=20are=20= multi=20clored=20 and=20good=20for =20drawing=20contrasting=20lines.=20=20You=20might=20also=20use=20graphic=20= art=20tape,=20 which=20is =20in =20red=20and=20black,=20so=20you=20could=20see=20and=20touch=20the=20lines= =20if=20you=20used=20 both =20colors. =20Crayola=20also=20makes=20some=20thick=20markers=20you=20might=20also=20b= e=20able=20to=20 see=20well =20and =20find=20useful. =20Good=20luck. =20Ashley =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Hamid=20Hamraz =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2002,=202012=205:54=20AM =20To:=20Blind=20Math=20;=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students= =20mailing=20 list =20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20Consultation=20regarding=20an=20Academic=20Mission= =20 Needed =20Dear=20all, =20I=20am=20going=20to=20start=20a=20computer=20science=20graduate=20progra= m=20in=20US=20in=20 the =20upcoming=20fall.=20=20However,=20this=20is=20my=20first=20academic=20mis= sion=20after=20 I=20got =20visually=20impaired.=20=20The=20standard=20load=20for=20a=20semester=20w= ould=20be=203=20 graduate =20courses.=20=20On=20the=20other=20hand,=20as=20you=20know,=20we=20blinds= =20and=20VI=20folks=20 are =20remarkably=20slower=20in=20CS-related=20assignments=20like=20math,=20 programming,=20etc. =20Now,=20I=20greatly=20appreciate=20it=20if=20experienced=20people=20in=20= the=20list=20 offer=20me =20suggestions=20regarding=20the=20course=20load,=20etc.=20=20Besides,=20I= =20should=20 order =20VI-related=20equipment=20for=20my=20workplace=20well=20in=20advance.=20= =20So=20far=20 I've=20thought =20about=20these: =201.=20=20A=20large=20LCD=20(+25=20inch) =202.=20=20Headphone =203.=20=20Scanner =204.=20=20Printer =205.=20=20Whiteboard=20(on=20which=20I=20can=20read=20single=20letters=20a= nd=20digits=20or=20 very=20large =20figures/diagrams) =206.=20=20Software=20(JAWS=20and=20Open=20Book=20to=20which=20I=20am=20ver= y=20well=20 accustomed) =207.=20=20An=20ergonomic=20keyboard=20with=20many=20extra=20function=20key= s =20Please=20note=20that=20I=20can=20not=20read=20Braille=20effectively=20(m= ostly=20 because=20of =20some =20very=20little=20tremor=20in=20my=20hands=20and=20fingers). =20If=20anybody=20has=20some=20other=20things=20to=20add=20to=20the=20list,= =20I'd=20be=20glad=20 to=20hear. =20Look=20forward=20to=20hearing=20back=20both=20your=20academic=20and=20no= n-academic=20 advices. =20Many=20thanks, =20Hamid =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink..net _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 20:39:13 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 16:39:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Message-ID: <4fcbcb91.1043340a.40cc.7c8e@mx.google.com> Were=20you=20the=20opera=20performance=20major=20who=20won=20an=20NFB=20sch= olarship=20 this=20year? Chris=20Nusbaum "For=20we=20walk=20by=20faith,=20not=20by=20sight." 2=20Corinthians=205:7 Sent=20from=20my=20BrailleNote =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Brandon=20Keith=20Biggs"=20=20wrote: =20Hamid, =20I'll=20start=20by=20saying=20=20that=20I=20graduated=20from=20Marymount= =20 university,=20a =20private =20liberal=20arts=20school,=20a=20few=20years=20ago.=20=20I=20combined=20st= udies=20for=20a=20 degree=20as=20I =20did=20not=20feel=20I=20could=20handle=20a=20full=20degree=20in=20psychol= ogy.=20=20At=20the=20 time=20the =20stats=20software,=20SPSS,=20was=20not=20accessible=20and=20I=20would=20h= ave=20faced=20 other =20barriers.=20=20My=20degree=20was=20in=20liberal=20studies=20with=20focus= =20in=20 communication=20and =20psychology. =20School=20is=20challenging=20at=20the=20post=20secondary=20level=20becaus= e=20you=20do=20 not=20have =20access=20to=20braille.=20=20In=20public=20school=20my=20Teacher=20of=20t= he=20vision=20 impaired, =20TVI, =20obtained=20my=20books=20in=20accessible=20format=20either=20audio,=20bra= ille=20or=20 large =20print =20or=20a=20combo=20of=20those=20as=20well=20as=20brailled=20any=20handouts= =20the=20class=20 received. =20Therefore=20when=20my=20sighted=20classmates=20got=20a=20worksheet,=20so= =20did=20I=20 and=20I=20did =20not =20have=20to=20wait=20for=20alternative=20forms=20of=20texts=20as=20I=20did= =20in=20college.=20=20 I=20did =20despite=20requesting=20electronic=20formats=20way=20in=20advance=20of=20= my=20 classes! =20I'm=20also=20not=20too=20active=20in=20NFB=20so=20my=20opinion=20may=20d= iffer=20from=20 others.=20=20I =20know =20we=20want=20to=20present=20a=20positive=20image,=20but=20IMO=20we=20may= =20have=20to=20take=20 it=20slowly =20at=20the=20beginning=20while=20adjusting=20to=20a=20new=20school,=20new= =20major,=20and=20 new=20ways =20of =20doing=20things. =20Anyway,=20that=20said,=20I=20wish=20you=20success=20in=20your =20computer=20science=20studies.=20=20You=20might=20want=20to=20do=20two=20= classes=20your=20 first =20semester.=20=20Where=20will=20you=20be=20studying?=20What=20country=20do= =20you =20come =20from=20and=20were=20you=20educated=20there=20in=20a=20mainstream=20class= =20or=20school=20 for=20the =20blind?=20Do=20you=20mind=20sharing=20what=20your=20vision=20impairment=20= is?=20Its=20 obvious =20your =20vision=20loss=20is=20new=20and=20I'm=20guessing=20probably=20a=20gradual= =20loss.=20=20 Maybe=20you =20have =20RP,=20retinitinis=20pigmentosa.=20=20I'm=20visually=20impaired=20too,=20= so=20I=20=20 know=20the =20benefits=20of=20seeing=20things=20where=20spatial=20relationships=20are= =20 involved. =20However, =20I=20also=20was=20taught=20braille=20and=20use=20that=20as=20my=20primary= =20medium=20and=20 print=20my =20secondary=20one=20for=20reading. =20I=20think=20by=20seeing=20something=20like=20say=20geometry=20figures=20= or=20a=20 diagram=20of=20the =20heart,=20I=20can=20better=20picture=20it=20than=20if=20I=20learned=20it= =20just=20by=20a=20 description. =20So,=20for=20some=20of=20us=20vision=20impaired=20people,=20using=20it=20= is=20effective=20 and=20we=20do =20not=20have=20to=20use=20all=20nonvisual=20ways.=20=20Because=20you=20can= not=20read=20 braille =20effectively,=20I=20think=20using=20your=20vision=20may=20help=20a=20lot= =20provided=20 you=20can=20see =20large=20print=20well=20without=20fatigue. =20BTW,=20you=20might=20be=20able=20to=20use=20jumbo=20braille=20a=20little= =20bit=20even=20 though=20you =20have=20hand=20trimmers. =20I=20do=20not=20know=20computer=20science=20or=20math=20majors=20so=20my= =20advice=20may=20 be=20more =20general=20and=20I'm=20imagining=20what=20might=20be=20useful=20to=20you =20in=20this=20program=20of=20study=20based=20on=20the=20little=20I=20know= =20of=20CS. =20You=20are=20right=20that=20getting=20special=20equipment=20will=20help=20= your=20 studies=20a=20lot. =20I=20use=20adaptive=20equipment=20all=20the=20time.=20=20For=20instance,= =20I=20love=20my=20 braille =20note, =20a=20portable=20PDA=20from=20humanware.=20=20In=20the=20US,=20we=20have=20= a=20service=20 that=20records =20books=20on=20CD=20and=20digital=20form.=20=20It =20is=20Learning=20Ally=20www.learningally.org. =20I=20do=20not=20know=20if=20they=20provide=20service=20to=20study=20abroa= d=20students,=20 but=20you =20might=20check=20on=20that.=20=20Learning=20ally=20may=20have=20your=20te= xtbooks=20in=20 their =20library. =20If=20you=20choose=20to=20use=20them,=20you=20might=20want=20to=20buy=20a= =20VR=20Stream=20and=20 you=20can =20use =20an=20sd=20card=20to=20play=20their=20books.=20=20You=20could=20also=20bu= y=20a=20vr=20stratus=20 which =20plays =20daisy=20cds.=20=20Both=20are=20available=20from=20humanware. =20These=20are=20some=20other=20ideas=20here.=20=20I=20know=20you=20will=20= need=20a=20way=20to=20 draw=20things =20in=20your=20CS=20studies.=20=20They=20use=20a=20lot=20of=20flow=20charts= =20and=20also=20if=20 you=20study =20computer=20programming=20that=20has=20a=20lot=20of=20visual=20stuff=20to= o. =20You=20already=20know=20about=20freedom=20scientific=20because=20you=20us= e=20jaws=20 and =20openbook. =20If=20you=20tell=20us=20how=20you=20plan=20to=20read=20your=20books=20and= =20take=20notes=20I=20 might=20have =20more=20suggestions. =20Let=20me=20know=20if=20you=20need=20or=20want=20to=20know=20where=20to=20= purchase=20these.=20=20 The=20first =20four=20items=20are=20available=20from=20APH,=20American=20printing=20hou= se=20for=20 the=20blind. =20Click=20on=20products=20and=20then=20low=20vision=20reading=20and=20writ= ing=20to=20 find=20these. =201.=20=20bold=20line=20paper=20or=20bold=20line=20notebook;=20these=20lin= es=20are=20 easier=20to=20see =20than =20standard=20loose=20leaf=20paper. =202.=20=20writing=20guides;=20these=20are=20templates=20which=20you=20slid= e=20a=20paper=20 into=20and =20write=20between=20the=20boxes=20of=20the=20template;=20good=20for=20writ= ing=20 straight=20if=20you =20do =20not=20have=20lined=20paper. =203.=20=20large=20print=20ruler =204.=20=20bold=20lined=20graph=20paper;=20might=20help=20as=20you=20draw=20= concepts=20or=20 if=20you=20take =20math=20classes =205.=20=20a=20CCTV,=20it=92s=20a=20magnifier=20that=20you=20put=20a=20pape= r=20or=20book=20 underneath=20it=20and =20it=20magnifies=20print=20on=20the=20screen =206.=20=20a=20digital=20recorder =20Other=20tools=20for=20writing=20or=20drawing=20diagrams=20you=20can=20ge= t=20at=20 general=20stores. =20You=20could=20use=20Mr.=20=20Sketch=20markers=20some.=20=20They=20are=20= multi=20clored=20 and=20good=20for =20drawing=20contrasting=20lines.=20=20You=20might=20also=20use=20graphic=20= art=20tape,=20 which=20is =20in =20red=20and=20black,=20so=20you=20could=20see=20and=20touch=20the=20lines= =20if=20you=20used=20 both =20colors. =20Crayola=20also=20makes=20some=20thick=20markers=20you=20might=20also=20b= e=20able=20to=20 see=20well =20and =20find=20useful. =20Good=20luck. =20Ashley =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Hamid=20Hamraz =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2002,=202012=205:54=20AM =20To:=20Blind=20Math=20;=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students= =20mailing=20 list =20Subject:=20[nabs-l]=20Consultation=20regarding=20an=20Academic=20Mission= =20 Needed =20Dear=20all, =20I=20am=20going=20to=20start=20a=20computer=20science=20graduate=20progra= m=20in=20US=20in=20 the =20upcoming=20fall.=20=20However,=20this=20is=20my=20first=20academic=20mis= sion=20after=20 I=20got =20visually=20impaired.=20=20The=20standard=20load=20for=20a=20semester=20w= ould=20be=203=20 graduate =20courses.=20=20On=20the=20other=20hand,=20as=20you=20know,=20we=20blinds= =20and=20VI=20folks=20 are =20remarkably=20slower=20in=20CS-related=20assignments=20like=20math,=20 programming,=20etc. =20Now,=20I=20greatly=20appreciate=20it=20if=20experienced=20people=20in=20= the=20list=20 offer=20me =20suggestions=20regarding=20the=20course=20load,=20etc.=20=20Besides,=20I= =20should=20 order =20VI-related=20equipment=20for=20my=20workplace=20well=20in=20advance.=20= =20So=20far=20 I've=20thought =20about=20these: =201.=20=20A=20large=20LCD=20(+25=20inch) =202.=20=20Headphone =203.=20=20Scanner =204.=20=20Printer =205.=20=20Whiteboard=20(on=20which=20I=20can=20read=20single=20letters=20a= nd=20digits=20or=20 very=20large =20figures/diagrams) =206.=20=20Software=20(JAWS=20and=20Open=20Book=20to=20which=20I=20am=20ver= y=20well=20 accustomed) =207.=20=20An=20ergonomic=20keyboard=20with=20many=20extra=20function=20key= s =20Please=20note=20that=20I=20can=20not=20read=20Braille=20effectively=20(m= ostly=20 because=20of =20some =20very=20little=20tremor=20in=20my=20hands=20and=20fingers). =20If=20anybody=20has=20some=20other=20things=20to=20add=20to=20the=20list,= =20I'd=20be=20glad=20 to=20hear. =20Look=20forward=20to=20hearing=20back=20both=20your=20academic=20and=20no= n-academic=20 advices. =20Many=20thanks, =20Hamid =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink..net _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 3 20:47:16 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:47:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: <4fcbcb95.1043340a.40cc.7c91@mx.google.com> References: <4fcbcb95.1043340a.40cc.7c91@mx.google.com> Message-ID: The list is working. Blessings, Joshua On 6/3/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Beth, > > I would try emailing Dave Andrews about this. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "For we walk by faith, not by sight." > 2 Corinthians 5:7 > > Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koby To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:51:47 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going > on? > > Okay. > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Beth > wrote: > > Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing > I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can > understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the > part of. :) > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koby To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:47:17 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going > on? > > Who will It be for? > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth > wrote: > > I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, > and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully > someone can help. > > Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if > anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need > You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. > I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next > wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google > recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my > Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates > MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has > the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send > them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 21:03:21 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:03:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <4fcbcb91.1043340a.40cc.7c8e@mx.google.com> References: <4fcbcb91.1043340a.40cc.7c8e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Hamid and all, I think we need to be very careful when making generalizations about all blind people such as "It takes us longer to do our work or grasp concepts". We are all different in our individual abilities and skills and although we do use different techniques than the sighted use for learning and acquiring information, that doesn't make those techniques slower for everyone. These kinds of generalizations aren't helpful and unnecessarily limit what we ought to expect out of ourselves. In my life I have learned that blindness by itself doesn't limit the average person's ability to complete the average task. While some of us might be better at, say, math or spatial concepts than others, we see these differences in the sighted world as well. I think it's fair to cut back a little on course load while you are learning a new blindness skill or new technology, so perhaps take two courses your first semester, but once you get the hang of the new technology I think you can and should plan on taking a regular course load. It is great to hear that you already have a good working knowledge of JAWS and Open Book and these will help you out immensely. Definitely talk to the folks on the NFB in Computer Science list to get more details, and it would also be good to talk to a professor in your department to find out what kind of reading is assigned. You might actually find that you don't need all the equipment you listed. For example, as a graduate student in a small program, all the students receive electronic materials, so I haven't needed to use my scanner. You don't need a special scanner for the blind; a combined scanner/printer should work fine. Also, if you are a skilled typist already, you probably don't need a specialized keyboard; however I am not a computer programmer, so I might be missing something. Welcome to the list and we're glad you joined us! Best, Arielle On 6/3/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Were you the opera performance major who won an NFB scholarship > this year? > > Chris Nusbaum > > "For we walk by faith, not by sight." > 2 Corinthians 5:7 > > Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 00:30:52 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission > Needed > > Hello, > I'm training to be an Opera singer, but I do all kinds of > stuff... > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 10:04 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission > Needed > > Brandon, > What is your major? Haven't seen you here til recently. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brandon Keith Biggs > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:43 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission > Needed > > Hello, > If you're a computer programmer, you may not like mainstream > products. > For example I can't stand the victor readers and I'm only getting > an Apex > because it's the smallest 32 celled PDA out there. > But for programming, getting your hands on a Braille+ would be > heaven as it > runs on a Linux operating system and it uses Python in its sours > code. They > opened up a developer package, so one is able to develop their > own apps for > the BP and the commands are very programmer friendly. > The only thing that I've heard is hard in a computer engineer > class is > soldering the small wires to the different hardware pieces > without touching > anything. > Other than that, programming blind is just as fast if not faster > than > programming sighted. > But really join the program list. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:01 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission > Needed > > What about contacting these guys, to get your books in Braille, > if > that's what you prefer? > http://www.mbvol.org > Just wondering! > Joshua > > On 6/2/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hamid, > I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount > university, a > private > liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a > degree as I > did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the > time the > stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced > other > barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in > communication and > psychology. > School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do > not have > access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision > impaired, > TVI, > obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or > large > print > or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class > received. > Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I > and I did > not > have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. > I did > despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my > classes! > I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from > others. I > know > we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take > it slowly > at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and > new ways > of > doing things. > > Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your > computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your > first > semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you > come > from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school > for the > blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its > obvious > your > vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. > Maybe you > have > RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I > know the > benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are > involved. > However, > I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and > print my > secondary one for reading. > I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a > diagram of the > heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a > description. > So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective > and we do > not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read > braille > effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided > you can see > large print well without fatigue. > BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even > though you > have hand trimmers. > > I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may > be more > general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you > in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. > > You are right that getting special equipment will help your > studies a lot. > I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my > braille > note, > a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service > that records > books on CD and digital form. It > is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. > I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, > but you > might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in > their > library. > If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and > you can > use > an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus > which > plays > daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. > > These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to > draw things > in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if > you study > computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. > You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws > and > openbook. > If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I > might have > more suggestions. > > Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. > The first > four items are available from APH, American printing house for > the blind. > Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to > find these. > > 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are > easier to see > than > standard loose leaf paper. > 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper > into and > write between the boxes of the template; good for writing > straight if you > do > not have lined paper. > 3. large print ruler > 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or > if you take > math classes > 5. a CCTV, it뭩 a magnifier that you put a paper or book > underneath it and > it magnifies print on the screen > 6. a digital recorder > > Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at > general stores. > You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored > and good for > drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, > which is > in > red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used > both > colors. > Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to > see well > and > find useful. > > Good luck. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hamid Hamraz > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM > To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission > Needed > > Dear all, > > I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in > the > upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after > I got > visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 > graduate > courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks > are > remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, > programming, etc. > > Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list > offer me > suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should > order > VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far > I've thought > about these: > > 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) > 2. Headphone > 3. Scanner > 4. Printer > 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or > very large > figures/diagrams) > 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well > accustomed) > 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys > > Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly > because of > some > very little tremor in my hands and fingers). > > If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad > to hear. > > Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic > advices. > > Many thanks, > > Hamid > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink..net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > > From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 21:16:17 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 15:16:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? Message-ID: <4fcbd454.c4be320a.266f.42fc@mx.google.com> Whoa. Ok. Thanks, Humberto. I totally will test the message with the address you just gave me. Thanks. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Humberto Avila" wrote: Maybe I'm going to sound dumb here, but why should who it's for affect this lady's ability to get the lyrics? On 6/3/12, Beth wrote: Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the part of. :) Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Koby Thanks, and I'm glad you didn't get a failure rate thingy. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: I'll test the list. Blessings, Joshua On 6/3/12, Humberto Avila wrote: Dear Beth, I'm not sure what's going on with your ability to send an email to the music list. Are you sure that you've typed in the correct address? And first of all, are you subscribed to that list? If you aren't typing in the list name right, which you might not be, it is: musictlk at nfbNet.org; as in m-u-s-I-c-t-l-k, at nfbNet.org, without dashes or anything in between music and the TLK part. If you are indeed sending the email with the right address, then that is a problem that either you could investigate further with your e-mail client and Internet Service provider (ISP), which I don't think it is, or David Andrews could investigate further about this problem, if you could explain your situation. Thanks, and hope this helps you! Humberto -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Koby Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? I don't no. Koby Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:16 PM, josh gregory wrote: Maybe I'm going to sound dumb here, but why should who it's for affect this lady's ability to get the lyrics? On 6/3/12, Beth wrote: Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the part of. :) Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Koby Oh, it's resolved. Apparently, I spelled the darn address wrong. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum References: <4fcbd457.c4be320a.266f.42fe@mx.google.com> Message-ID: LOL! As I said on the other list, good grief! Blessings, Joshua On 6/3/12, Beth wrote: > Thanks, and I'm glad you didn't get a failure rate thingy. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:14:45 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going > on? > > I've just tested it, and didn't get a failure reply. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/3/12, Joshua Lester wrote: > I'll test the list. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/3/12, Humberto Avila > wrote: > Dear Beth, > > I'm not sure what's going on with your ability to send an email > to the > music > list. Are you sure that you've typed in the correct address? And > first of > all, are you subscribed to that list? If you aren't typing in > the list > name > right, which you might not be, it is: > musictlk at nfbNet.org; as in m-u-s-I-c-t-l-k, at nfbNet.org, > without dashes > or > anything in between music and the TLK part. > If you are indeed sending the email with the right address, then > that is > a > problem that either you could investigate further with your > e-mail client > and Internet Service provider (ISP), which I don't think it is, > or David > Andrews could investigate further about this problem, if you > could > explain > your situation. > > Thanks, and hope this helps you! > > Humberto > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Koby > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:36 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going > on? > > I don't no. > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:16 PM, josh gregory > wrote: > > Maybe I'm going to sound dumb here, but why should who it's for > affect > this lady's ability to get the lyrics? > > On 6/3/12, Beth wrote: > Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing > I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can > understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the > part of. :) > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koby To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:47:17 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going > on? > > Who will It be for? > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth wrote: > > I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, > and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully > someone can help. > > Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if > anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need > You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text > file. > I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next > wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google > recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my > Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates > MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has > the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send > them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40 > gmail.com > > > > -- > Sent via gmail.com > Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com > Skype: joshgregory93 > twitter: JoshG93 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.hu > mberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0students.pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 21:25:36 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 17:25:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: <4fcbd458.c4be320a.266f.4300@mx.google.com> References: <4fcbd458.c4be320a.266f.4300@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <01F110E4FE364274B6C431287F742826@OwnerPC> Beth, That is good you caught your own error. the nfb lists generally run fine and when they don't David Andrews puts out a message. So, if messages don't go through, I first suspect it is an error on my part. In your case, it was on your end. well, mistakes happen, its good you caught it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Beth Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? Oh, it's resolved. Apparently, I spelled the darn address wrong. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nusbaum References: <4fcbd458.c4be320a.266f.4300@mx.google.com> <01F110E4FE364274B6C431287F742826@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I agree, Ashley! I'm having problems with the other lists. I was hoping the moderators would solve the problem, for the rest of the lists, like he did, for this one. I don't want to receive copies of my messages, after I send them, to Music Talk, or NFB Talk. The NFB Arkansas list does that to me, as well as Perform-Talk. Thanks, Joshua On 6/3/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Beth, > That is good you caught your own error. the nfb lists generally run fine and > > when they don't David Andrews puts out a message. So, if messages don't go > through, I first suspect it is an error on my part. > In your case, it was on your end. well, mistakes happen, its good you caught > > it. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:16 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? > > Oh, it's resolved. Apparently, I spelled the darn address wrong. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list Date sent: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 16:39:18 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going > on? > > Hi Beth, > > I would try emailing Dave Andrews about this. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "For we walk by faith, not by sight." > 2 Corinthians 5:7 > > Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koby To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:51:47 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going > on? > > Okay. > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Beth wrote: > > Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing > I want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can > understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the > part of. :) > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koby To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:47:17 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going > on? > > Who will It be for? > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth wrote: > > I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, > and it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully > someone can help. > > Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if > anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need > You in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. > I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next > wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google > recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my > Apex to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates > MetroLyrics as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has > the lyrics written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send > them to me as an attachment off list. Thanks. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu Sun Jun 3 23:45:17 2012 From: PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu (Justin Salisbury) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 23:45:17 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Message-ID: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D287E@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Ashley: If you believe that Tony and I were jumping on Hamid for not frequently using Braille and other non-visual approaches, you are misinterpreting us. Having worked with Tony at events like Youth Slam, I feel confident in saying that we both were just encouraging Hamid to explore the kinds of non-visual approaches that work so well for so many people. Peace, Justin Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 23:58:04 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:58:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <4fcbcb91.1043340a.40cc.7c8e@mx.google.com> References: <4fcbcb91.1043340a.40cc.7c8e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55154A729A094E9AA17FE9F49CF668F5@BrandonsLaptop2> Yes, and I will be going to my first national convention this year! Also, Braille+s are being sold all the time, but despite not being supported, they are the best PDA out there, especially for reading or listening to books... So much so, that the winners of the Bookshare reading challenges almost always have a Braille+. The music player on it is unmatched as well, there is nothing better than to be able to create custom play lists, have your music play on random, go to the name of your artist and find all their songs, place songs in the right order when they were put out of order by Amazon, increase the speed, navigate through the audio with multiple level navigation and store 64 gigs of music and books without any external cards. I have around 25 Operas as well as all the albums from about 15 artists, 600+ full books from both NLS and Bookshare, and I have only used 25 Gigs. Not even half way there... I haven't even touched programming my own programs. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 1:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Were you the opera performance major who won an NFB scholarship this year? Chris Nusbaum "For we walk by faith, not by sight." 2 Corinthians 5:7 Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Hamid, I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a private liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as I did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication and psychology. School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, TVI, obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large print or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did not have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I know we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it slowly at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways of doing things. Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you come from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious your vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you have RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. However, I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my secondary one for reading. I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a description. So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we do not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can see large print well without fatigue. BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you have hand trimmers. I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a lot. I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille note, a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records books on CD and digital form. It is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their library. If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can use an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which plays daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw things in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and openbook. If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might have more suggestions. Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The first four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see than standard loose leaf paper. 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you do not have lined paper. 3. large print ruler 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take math classes 5. a CCTV, it�s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it and it magnifies print on the screen 6. a digital recorder Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general stores. You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is in red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both colors. Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well and find useful. Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hamid Hamraz Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Dear all, I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought about these: 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) 2. Headphone 3. Scanner 4. Printer 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large figures/diagrams) 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of some very little tremor in my hands and fingers). If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. Many thanks, Hamid _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink..net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Mon Jun 4 00:13:08 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:13:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: <4fcb8351.64ad320a.643d.69e3@mx.google.com> References: <4fcb8351.64ad320a.643d.69e3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: There is no - dash in the name, it is musictlk at nfbnet.org You of course must be a member of the list to post, as with all lists. Dave At 10:30 AM 6/3/2012, you wrote: >I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, and >it failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully someone can help. > >Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if >anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need You >in a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. >I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next >wek. I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google >recommends and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my Apex >to email and surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates MetroLyrics >as well as some other lyrics sites. If anyone has the lyrics >written down, both Faith and Tim's part, just send them to me as an >attachment off list. Thanks. >Beth From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 00:21:28 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 18:21:28 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? Message-ID: <4fcbffbc.a70c320a.4ae7.ffff8538@mx.google.com> Thanks for clarifying, Dave. I am, and I just forgot the address because I haven't posted in a loooooooong time. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: David Andrews References: <4fcbcb91.1043340a.40cc.7c8e@mx.google.com> <55154A729A094E9AA17FE9F49CF668F5@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <83644A1D17B049FD98D5FBDDBCD5E186@OwnerPC> Brandon, What do you mean by not being supported? Are they sold by APH? Also, can you get them with and without a braille display? Sounds like a good notetaker. -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 7:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Yes, and I will be going to my first national convention this year! Also, Braille+s are being sold all the time, but despite not being supported, they are the best PDA out there, especially for reading or listening to books... So much so, that the winners of the Bookshare reading challenges almost always have a Braille+. The music player on it is unmatched as well, there is nothing better than to be able to create custom play lists, have your music play on random, go to the name of your artist and find all their songs, place songs in the right order when they were put out of order by Amazon, increase the speed, navigate through the audio with multiple level navigation and store 64 gigs of music and books without any external cards. I have around 25 Operas as well as all the albums from about 15 artists, 600+ full books from both NLS and Bookshare, and I have only used 25 Gigs. Not even half way there... I haven't even touched programming my own programs. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 1:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Were you the opera performance major who won an NFB scholarship this year? Chris Nusbaum "For we walk by faith, not by sight." 2 Corinthians 5:7 Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Hamid, I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a private liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as I did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication and psychology. School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, TVI, obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large print or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did not have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I know we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it slowly at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways of doing things. Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you come from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious your vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you have RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. However, I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my secondary one for reading. I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a description. So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we do not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can see large print well without fatigue. BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you have hand trimmers. I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a lot. I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille note, a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records books on CD and digital form. It is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their library. If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can use an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which plays daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw things in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and openbook. If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might have more suggestions. Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The first four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see than standard loose leaf paper. 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you do not have lined paper. 3. large print ruler 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take math classes 5. a CCTV, it�s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it and it magnifies print on the screen 6. a digital recorder Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general stores. You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is in red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both colors. Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well and find useful. Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hamid Hamraz Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Dear all, I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought about these: 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) 2. Headphone 3. Scanner 4. Printer 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large figures/diagrams) 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of some very little tremor in my hands and fingers). If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. Many thanks, Hamid _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink..net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 01:05:49 2012 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 21:05:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] TABS Fundraisers at National Convention Message-ID: The sun is blazing, barbeque pits are lit, and that could only mean one thing, summer has arrived in Texas! This year, with the arrival of summer comes National Convention to Dallas, and the Texas Association of Blind Students is gearing up to be a part of it! Southern Strums, often times referred to as the best kept secret of National Convention, after 9 great years is regrettably no more. However, to commemorate this great musical extravaganza that entertained many Federationists throughout the years, TABS will be selling Southern Strums T-shirts! The T-shirt is maroon, it has the shape of Texas in the center, and along the side of the shape of the state a guitar handle is visible with the words Southern Strums going through the graphic. These beautiful shirts will be available for a limited time, so be sure you purchase a piece of history, and best of all it’s only $10.00. As if that wasn’t enough, we with a generous contribution of Apple, will be raffling off a brand new Apple TV! You can purchase a single ticket for $5.00 or you can improve your chances of winning by purchasing three tickets for $10.00. Raffle tickets will be sold from Friday June 29, through Wednesday July 4, at 5:00 PM. The drawing will take place during Salsa Night held in the Wedgwood Ballroom, Tower lobby. You must be present to win, the event starts at 7:30 PM, be there!!! If you have any questions about either of these fundraisers, or would like to find the location of raffle ticket and T-shirt sells at convention, contact Gabe Cazares at: Gcazares10 at gmail.com So dig up your boots, put on your ten gallon hat, and join us this summer for Convention and remember all the exciting fundraisers that TABS will be having! Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfbtx.org/tabs Phone: 713-581-0619 From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 04:55:04 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 23:55:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <83644A1D17B049FD98D5FBDDBCD5E186@OwnerPC> References: <4fcbcb91.1043340a.40cc.7c8e@mx.google.com> <55154A729A094E9AA17FE9F49CF668F5@BrandonsLaptop2> <83644A1D17B049FD98D5FBDDBCD5E186@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <33BD3E16-6C37-4BA4-93BD-CA2867EAE94A@gmail.com> When a device isn't supported, it means that if it breaks, they won't fix it. For this reason, I would strongly advise against getting an unsupported device, no matter how good it is. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:54 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Brandon, > What do you mean by not being supported? Are they sold by APH? Also, can you get them with and without a braille display? > Sounds like a good notetaker. > > -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 7:58 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed > > Yes, and I will be going to my first national convention this year! > Also, Braille+s are being sold all the time, but despite not being > supported, they are the best PDA out there, especially for reading or > listening to books... So much so, that the winners of the Bookshare reading > challenges almost always have a Braille+. The music player on it is > unmatched as well, there is nothing better than to be able to create custom > play lists, have your music play on random, go to the name of your artist > and find all their songs, place songs in the right order when they were put > out of order by Amazon, increase the speed, navigate through the audio with > multiple level navigation and store 64 gigs of music and books without any > external cards. I have around 25 Operas as well as all the albums from about > 15 artists, 600+ full books from both NLS and Bookshare, and I have only > used 25 Gigs. Not even half way there... > I haven't even touched programming my own programs. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 1:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed > > Were you the opera performance major who won an NFB scholarship > this year? > > Chris Nusbaum > > "For we walk by faith, not by sight." > 2 Corinthians 5:7 > > Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 00:30:52 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission > Needed > > Hello, > I'm training to be an Opera singer, but I do all kinds of > stuff... > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 10:04 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission > Needed > > Brandon, > What is your major? Haven't seen you here til recently. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brandon Keith Biggs > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 12:43 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission > Needed > > Hello, > If you're a computer programmer, you may not like mainstream > products. > For example I can't stand the victor readers and I'm only getting > an Apex > because it's the smallest 32 celled PDA out there. > But for programming, getting your hands on a Braille+ would be > heaven as it > runs on a Linux operating system and it uses Python in its sours > code. They > opened up a developer package, so one is able to develop their > own apps for > the BP and the commands are very programmer friendly. > The only thing that I've heard is hard in a computer engineer > class is > soldering the small wires to the different hardware pieces > without touching > anything. > Other than that, programming blind is just as fast if not faster > than > programming sighted. > But really join the program list. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:01 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission > Needed > > What about contacting these guys, to get your books in Braille, > if > that's what you prefer? > http://www.mbvol.org > Just wondering! > Joshua > > On 6/2/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hamid, > I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount > university, a > private > liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a > degree as I > did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the > time the > stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced > other > barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in > communication and > psychology. > School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do > not have > access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision > impaired, > TVI, > obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or > large > print > or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class > received. > Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I > and I did > not > have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. > I did > despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my > classes! > I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from > others. I > know > we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take > it slowly > at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and > new ways > of > doing things. > > Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your > computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your > first > semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you > come > from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school > for the > blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its > obvious > your > vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. > Maybe you > have > RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I > know the > benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are > involved. > However, > I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and > print my > secondary one for reading. > I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a > diagram of the > heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a > description. > So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective > and we do > not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read > braille > effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided > you can see > large print well without fatigue. > BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even > though you > have hand trimmers. > > I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may > be more > general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you > in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. > > You are right that getting special equipment will help your > studies a lot. > I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my > braille > note, > a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service > that records > books on CD and digital form. It > is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. > I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, > but you > might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in > their > library. > If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and > you can > use > an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus > which > plays > daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. > > These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to > draw things > in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if > you study > computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. > You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws > and > openbook. > If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I > might have > more suggestions. > > Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. > The first > four items are available from APH, American printing house for > the blind. > Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to > find these. > > 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are > easier to see > than > standard loose leaf paper. > 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper > into and > write between the boxes of the template; good for writing > straight if you > do > not have lined paper. > 3. large print ruler > 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or > if you take > math classes > 5. a CCTV, it뭩 a magnifier that you put a paper or book > underneath it and > it magnifies print on the screen > 6. a digital recorder > > Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at > general stores. > You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored > and good for > drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, > which is > in > red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used > both > colors. > Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to > see well > and > find useful. > > Good luck. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hamid Hamraz > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM > To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission > Needed > > Dear all, > > I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in > the > upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after > I got > visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 > graduate > courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks > are > remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, > programming, etc. > > Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list > offer me > suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should > order > VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far > I've thought > about these: > > 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) > 2. Headphone > 3. Scanner > 4. Printer > 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or > very large > figures/diagrams) > 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well > accustomed) > 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys > > Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly > because of > some > very little tremor in my hands and fingers). > > If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad > to hear. > > Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic > advices. > > Many thanks, > > Hamid > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0earthlink..net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 02:24:06 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 19:24:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <83644A1D17B049FD98D5FBDDBCD5E186@OwnerPC> References: <4fcbcb91.1043340a.40cc.7c8e@mx.google.com><55154A729A094E9AA17FE9F49CF668F5@BrandonsLaptop2> <83644A1D17B049FD98D5FBDDBCD5E186@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hello, What I mean is, they have been discontinued. APH doesn't sell them anymore. They are selling the cables and hardware accessories, but there will be no more software updates. If you join the Icon discussions list, or contact me off list, I can give people who are selling them. Also look at blind bargains. They are selling anywhere between $250 and $600. The Braille+ is an Icon with a Braille Keyboard. The Icon is just a phone pad. Neither have a Braille display built in, but they can be attached to a Braille display. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Brandon, What do you mean by not being supported? Are they sold by APH? Also, can you get them with and without a braille display? are discontinued. APH doesn't sell them any more and they are no longer doing updates. They are however selling extra parts. k Sounds like a good notetaker. -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 7:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Yes, and I will be going to my first national convention this year! Also, Braille+s are being sold all the time, but despite not being supported, they are the best PDA out there, especially for reading or listening to books... So much so, that the winners of the Bookshare reading challenges almost always have a Braille+. The music player on it is unmatched as well, there is nothing better than to be able to create custom play lists, have your music play on random, go to the name of your artist and find all their songs, place songs in the right order when they were put out of order by Amazon, increase the speed, navigate through the audio with multiple level navigation and store 64 gigs of music and books without any external cards. I have around 25 Operas as well as all the albums from about 15 artists, 600+ full books from both NLS and Bookshare, and I have only used 25 Gigs. Not even half way there... I haven't even touched programming my own programs. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 1:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Were you the opera performance major who won an NFB scholarship this year? Chris Nusbaum "For we walk by faith, not by sight." 2 Corinthians 5:7 Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Hamid, I'll start by saying that I graduated from Marymount university, a private liberal arts school, a few years ago. I combined studies for a degree as I did not feel I could handle a full degree in psychology. At the time the stats software, SPSS, was not accessible and I would have faced other barriers. My degree was in liberal studies with focus in communication and psychology. School is challenging at the post secondary level because you do not have access to braille. In public school my Teacher of the vision impaired, TVI, obtained my books in accessible format either audio, braille or large print or a combo of those as well as brailled any handouts the class received. Therefore when my sighted classmates got a worksheet, so did I and I did not have to wait for alternative forms of texts as I did in college. I did despite requesting electronic formats way in advance of my classes! I'm also not too active in NFB so my opinion may differ from others. I know we want to present a positive image, but IMO we may have to take it slowly at the beginning while adjusting to a new school, new major, and new ways of doing things. Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you come from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? Its obvious your vision loss is new and I'm guessing probably a gradual loss. Maybe you have RP, retinitinis pigmentosa. I'm visually impaired too, so I know the benefits of seeing things where spatial relationships are involved. However, I also was taught braille and use that as my primary medium and print my secondary one for reading. I think by seeing something like say geometry figures or a diagram of the heart, I can better picture it than if I learned it just by a description. So, for some of us vision impaired people, using it is effective and we do not have to use all nonvisual ways. Because you cannot read braille effectively, I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can see large print well without fatigue. BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you have hand trimmers. I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a lot. I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille note, a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records books on CD and digital form. It is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their library. If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can use an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which plays daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw things in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and openbook. If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might have more suggestions. Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The first four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see than standard loose leaf paper. 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you do not have lined paper. 3. large print ruler 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take math classes 5. a CCTV, it�s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it and it magnifies print on the screen 6. a digital recorder Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general stores. You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is in red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both colors. Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well and find useful. Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hamid Hamraz Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Dear all, I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought about these: 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) 2. Headphone 3. Scanner 4. Printer 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large figures/diagrams) 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of some very little tremor in my hands and fingers). If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. Many thanks, Hamid _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 0students.pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink..net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb iggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 15:23:25 2012 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 08:23:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Baking racks can cool a lot more than just cookies. They can keep your tech cool too: Message-ID: <4BCC3643-D883-4B77-A827-8E4C464ECC46@gmail.com> for all of us here who use technology. Here is a good tip. I hope it works. http://t.co/bEKp1Yiw From hhamraz at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 17:46:51 2012 From: hhamraz at gmail.com (Hamid Hamraz) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 22:16:51 +0430 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> References: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> Message-ID: > Anyway, that said, I wish you success in your > computer science studies. You might want to do two classes your first > semester. Where will you be studying? What country do you > come > from and were you educated there in a mainstream class or school for the > blind? Do you mind sharing what your vision impairment is? I'll be starting a doctrate program in CS at the University of Kentucky (Anyone close to me?). My VI is a cortical impairmet out of an incident a few years ago in Germany while I was doing my Master study. I had to leave the school and the country after some initial medical cares because of serious health impairments, and the subsequent psychological problems. I managed to gradually reconstruct my physical capabilities by phisio-therapy and occupational therapy in the following years. As I've been advised by the doctors, my sight will be improving although it's over 4 years by now, and I think it'll take more. I think it is getting better although measuring that is almost impossible (mostly central vision malfunctioning). However, this thought, i.e. the improvement sensation of myself might be due to increasing my non-visual skills and the subsequent self-confidence. I really don't know this. I am from Iran holding a Bachelor's degree from my country, and planning to be in US in Aug 8th. (The visa is ready; I just need to have somebody pick it up from our neighbor country, Turkmanistan.) Ashley: Thank you very much for the info you provided below. I'll consider it while I am staying in touch with the list. > I think using your vision may help a lot provided you can see > large print well without fatigue. > BTW, you might be able to use jumbo braille a little bit even though you > have hand trimmers. > > I do not know computer science or math majors so my advice may be more > general and I'm imagining what might be useful to you > in this program of study based on the little I know of CS. > > You are right that getting special equipment will help your studies a lot. > I use adaptive equipment all the time. For instance, I love my braille > note, > a portable PDA from humanware. In the US, we have a service that records > books on CD and digital form. It > is Learning Ally www.learningally.org. > I do not know if they provide service to study abroad students, but you > might check on that. Learning ally may have your textbooks in their > library. > If you choose to use them, you might want to buy a VR Stream and you can > use > an sd card to play their books. You could also buy a vr stratus which > plays > daisy cds. Both are available from humanware. > > These are some other ideas here. I know you will need a way to draw things > in your CS studies. They use a lot of flow charts and also if you study > computer programming that has a lot of visual stuff too. > You already know about freedom scientific because you use jaws and > openbook. > If you tell us how you plan to read your books and take notes I might have > more suggestions. > > Let me know if you need or want to know where to purchase these. The first > four items are available from APH, American printing house for the blind. > Click on products and then low vision reading and writing to find these. > > 1. bold line paper or bold line notebook; these lines are easier to see > than > standard loose leaf paper. > 2. writing guides; these are templates which you slide a paper into and > write between the boxes of the template; good for writing straight if you > do > not have lined paper. > 3. large print ruler > 4. bold lined graph paper; might help as you draw concepts or if you take > math classes > 5. a CCTV, it’s a magnifier that you put a paper or book underneath it and > it magnifies print on the screen > 6. a digital recorder > > Other tools for writing or drawing diagrams you can get at general stores. > You could use Mr. Sketch markers some. They are multi clored and good for > drawing contrasting lines. You might also use graphic art tape, which is > in red and black, so you could see and touch the lines if you used both > colors. > Crayola also makes some thick markers you might also be able to see well > and find useful. > > Good luck. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hamid Hamraz > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 5:54 AM > To: Blind Math ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed > > Dear all, > > I am going to start a computer science graduate program in US in the > upcoming fall. However, this is my first academic mission after I got > visually impaired. The standard load for a semester would be 3 graduate > courses. On the other hand, as you know, we blinds and VI folks are > remarkably slower in CS-related assignments like math, programming, etc. > > Now, I greatly appreciate it if experienced people in the list offer me > suggestions regarding the course load, etc. Besides, I should order > VI-related equipment for my workplace well in advance. So far I've thought > about these: > > 1. A large LCD (+25 inch) > 2. Headphone > 3. Scanner > 4. Printer > 5. Whiteboard (on which I can read single letters and digits or very large > figures/diagrams) > 6. Software (JAWS and Open Book to which I am very well accustomed) > 7. An ergonomic keyboard with many extra function keys > > Please note that I can not read Braille effectively (mostly because of > some > very little tremor in my hands and fingers). > > If anybody has some other things to add to the list, I'd be glad to hear. > > Look forward to hearing back both your academic and non-academic advices. > > Many thanks, > > Hamid > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hhamraz%40gmail.com > From hhamraz at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 17:53:08 2012 From: hhamraz at gmail.com (Hamid Hamraz) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 22:23:08 +0430 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: References: <89ABF4D852A14A82AE77CB90AC5BE105@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <6AB9004F756845DC86C4626D2D19B8A4@HamidPC> >Is there a chance you will be attending our national convention in dallas this year? If you have the opportunity you will be able to interact with many folks who are in computer related fields and can draw upon their wisdom as well. Thank you very much for sharing your experience. Just let me know when the convention would be. From hhamraz at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 18:00:54 2012 From: hhamraz at gmail.com (Hamid Hamraz) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 22:30:54 +0430 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D287E@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D287E@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <3C90794D015D4EA0B88387F53D6A3483@HamidPC> No, no, just take it easy friends! As a matter of fact, I really didn't feel that anybody is jumping on me. I can see you all want to help. Just to ease your writings, I am male. :D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Salisbury" To: Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 4:15 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Ashley: If you believe that Tony and I were jumping on Hamid for not frequently using Braille and other non-visual approaches, you are misinterpreting us. Having worked with Tony at events like Youth Slam, I feel confident in saying that we both were just encouraging Hamid to explore the kinds of non-visual approaches that work so well for so many people. Peace, Justin Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hhamraz%40gmail.com From liamskitten at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 19:32:46 2012 From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Courtney Stover) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 14:32:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: <3C90794D015D4EA0B88387F53D6A3483@HamidPC> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D287E@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <3C90794D015D4EA0B88387F53D6A3483@HamidPC> Message-ID: Brandon, I have a question about the Braille Plus, if you could take a moment to answer it for me? What are the voices for the Braile Plus? I know that question isn't terribly clear, but I'm not sure how to ask what I'm wondering. I have one of the old APH book Ports, which are, in my oppinion, one of the best book readers possible, though they lack the music capabilities you mentioned. But, its voices are completely different from anyone else's; it has voices like Precise Pete, Perfect Paul, etc. etc. I was wondering if the Braille Plus had similar voices; the Book Port voices are very similar to Jaws, and I prefer them so much more than any of the other, more "human" voices. Thanks immensely for reading my rambling question and attempting to answer *smile* Courtney From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 19:40:04 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 12:40:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs Needs Your Help at National Convention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As you all know, the National association of blind students is planning a lot of exciting things at national convention. What you may not know however is that we as a board can’t do all of it ourselves. So we would very much appreciate your help in making the nabs activities a success this year! Where we would most appreciate your assistance is in two areas: 1. Assistance in staffing the nabs table located in the exhibit hall. Here you will be partnered up with a nabs board member selling nabs items and handing out nabs literature. The schedule for tabling looks like this: Sunday, July 1: Shift 2. 1:00 p.m. – 3:00 p.m. Shift 3. 3:00p.m. – 5:00 p.m. Monday, July 2: Shift 4: 8:30 a.m. – 11:00 a.m. Shift 6: 1:00 p.m. – 3:00 p.m. Tuesday, July 3: Shift 9: 7:00p.m. – 9:00 p.m. Wednesday, July 4: Shift 11: 6:00p.m. – 8:30 p.m. As you can see, these are the shifts we have left, so if you contact me with your preference, I will be more than happy to get you scheduled in! 2. Staffing the nabs Monte Carlo night fund raiser. This is a great opportunity to work shoulder to shoulder with us in putting together one of our most successful events that we do. For this we will need: Individuals who can work an early shift (7:00 p.m. - 9:30 p.m. Those individuals will be asked to either a. Marshal. b. Set up for the event c. Deal card games( blackjack, poker, holdemand other such games) We will also need Late shift workers (9:30 p.m. – 12:00 a.m.) Those individuals would be asked to: a. deal card games (blackjack, poker, holdem and other such games) b. Assist with event clean- up and playing chip counting. Please let me know what shift(s) you are interested in working (exhibit hall, Monte Carlo or both). Also please supply a contact phone number where you can be reached during convention. If you are interested in working Monte Carlo, please let me know what job you would like to take on, if you would like to deal and what games you would like to deal (blackjack, poker, holdem or other such games). This is a great opportunity for you to meet the nabs board, and us to get to know you. As well, this is an equally great opportunity for you to meet a lot of new people and have some fun at the same time. Please contact me if interested. I can be contacted at: dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thank you so much for your interest and I look forward to hearing from you all real soon And of course, see you in Dallas!!! Best, Darian -- Darian Smith 2nd Vice-President, National Association of blind Students "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 00:56:03 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 17:56:03 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed In-Reply-To: References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D287E@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com><3C90794D015D4EA0B88387F53D6A3483@HamidPC> Message-ID: <4BE487242FF740D5A360FD6CE20B683F@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, It uses eloquence I believe. With the reed, grandma, grandpa, bobby and shelly. There are more, but those are the voices it has. It also can be sped up to a million times that of the Apex, so you don't have to be forced to listen to that super slow voice that the Apex has on fastest. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Courtney Stover Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 12:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Consultation regarding an Academic Mission Needed Brandon, I have a question about the Braille Plus, if you could take a moment to answer it for me? What are the voices for the Braile Plus? I know that question isn't terribly clear, but I'm not sure how to ask what I'm wondering. I have one of the old APH book Ports, which are, in my oppinion, one of the best book readers possible, though they lack the music capabilities you mentioned. But, its voices are completely different from anyone else's; it has voices like Precise Pete, Perfect Paul, etc. etc. I was wondering if the Braille Plus had similar voices; the Book Port voices are very similar to Jaws, and I prefer them so much more than any of the other, more "human" voices. Thanks immensely for reading my rambling question and attempting to answer *smile* Courtney _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From Susana.Verdinelli at waldenu.edu Tue Jun 5 02:47:06 2012 From: Susana.Verdinelli at waldenu.edu (Susana Verdinelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 22:47:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Participation in a Study Message-ID: <0FB9DE13BE452D4E877D9A84540D236245F6EB2F54@MAILBOX.loe.corp> Dear List Members, Greetings! My name is Susana Verdinelli and I am a faculty member at Walden University. I really appreciate that you consider participating in a project that I am conducting. I hope you don't find my message intrusive. The project explores the factors that contribute to the engaging and perseverance in graduate studies among persons with disabilities enrolled in online programs. I want to invite you to participate in this project. I believe that understanding the factors that contribute to academic persistence in online environments may help recognize students with disabilities' needs and inform educational institutions how to better address them. The title of the project is: Persistence Factors in Pursuing a Higher Degree among Graduate Students with Disabilities. The study received IRB approval from Walden University. You can participate in this study if you meet the following three conditions: (1) You are a graduate student, (2) You are a person with disabilities (e.g. (a) physical or sensory conditions, (b) health impairment or problem, (c) learning disability, or (d) attention deficit disorder, (3) You successfully completed at least one quarter in your online program. You have to be enrolled in an online program, although not necessarily in a full online school as the one I work for. You will be completing a demographic form and participating in a phone interview that will be audio recorded. The phone interview is expected to last 45-70 minutes. A brief follow up interaction with the researcher will take place to clarify aspects of the interview. A 50 (fifty) dollar compensation will be given to each participant. If you have questions about me or about this project or you just want to know something else before committing to it, please contact me at: Email: susana.verdinelli at waldenu.edu Phone: (469) 277-2320 Thank you very much for reading this message and consider participating. Kindly, Susana Susana Verdinelli, Psy.D. Core Full Time Faculty Counseling Psychology -School of Psychology College of Social and Behavioral Sciences Walden University 100 Washington Avenue South Suite 900 Minneapolis, MN 55401 susana.verdinelli at waldenu.edu From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 03:51:52 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 23:51:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Participation in a Study In-Reply-To: <0FB9DE13BE452D4E877D9A84540D236245F6EB2F54@MAILBOX.loe.corp> References: <0FB9DE13BE452D4E877D9A84540D236245F6EB2F54@MAILBOX.loe.corp> Message-ID: <56BC921018004BB29CA048760D2051B1@OwnerPC> sounds like good research -----Original Message----- From: Susana Verdinelli Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 10:47 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Participation in a Study Dear List Members, Greetings! My name is Susana Verdinelli and I am a faculty member at Walden University. I really appreciate that you consider participating in a project that I am conducting. I hope you don't find my message intrusive. The project explores the factors that contribute to the engaging and perseverance in graduate studies among persons with disabilities enrolled in online programs. I want to invite you to participate in this project. I believe that understanding the factors that contribute to academic persistence in online environments may help recognize students with disabilities' needs and inform educational institutions how to better address them. The title of the project is: Persistence Factors in Pursuing a Higher Degree among Graduate Students with Disabilities. The study received IRB approval from Walden University. You can participate in this study if you meet the following three conditions: (1) You are a graduate student, (2) You are a person with disabilities (e.g. (a) physical or sensory conditions, (b) health impairment or problem, (c) learning disability, or (d) attention deficit disorder, (3) You successfully completed at least one quarter in your online program. You have to be enrolled in an online program, although not necessarily in a full online school as the one I work for. You will be completing a demographic form and participating in a phone interview that will be audio recorded. The phone interview is expected to last 45-70 minutes. A brief follow up interaction with the researcher will take place to clarify aspects of the interview. A 50 (fifty) dollar compensation will be given to each participant. If you have questions about me or about this project or you just want to know something else before committing to it, please contact me at: Email: susana.verdinelli at waldenu.edu Phone: (469) 277-2320 Thank you very much for reading this message and consider participating. Kindly, Susana Susana Verdinelli, Psy.D. Core Full Time Faculty Counseling Psychology -School of Psychology College of Social and Behavioral Sciences Walden University 100 Washington Avenue South Suite 900 Minneapolis, MN 55401 susana.verdinelli at waldenu.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 03:58:39 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 23:58:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] taking a break Message-ID: <691E9194B55247FBB580B141689DE72F@OwnerPC> All, I’m taking a break from some of my lists while I’m out of town. I’ll be back next week. Ashley From amylsabo at comcast.net Tue Jun 5 04:26:56 2012 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 22:26:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] MS OFFICE 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <000001cd3923$61615620$24240260$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <03f301cd42d3$71f581a0$55e084e0$@comcast.net> Hello Ashley, Thanks for your help on this. Unfortunately, I didn't solve this problem and, I uninstalled ms office 2010 on my laptop but, I haven't had time to reinstall it back on my laptop. But, thanks for the suggestions in which I did already... Thanks again and, I will talk to you soon. Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] MS OFFICE 2010 Amy, That key f 7 should work. Make sure you are not in another frame. You want your cursor to be active in the document. Also, in office 2010, you cannot edit attachments in emails unless you click on enable editing. So click on that button if it's an attachment, and you should be able to spell check. If that doesn't work, I'd say restart the computer and open the document again. -----Original Message----- From: Amy Sabo Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 4:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] MS OFFICE 2010 HELLO ALL, I HOPE THAT EVERYONE IS DOING GOOD. I HAVE A PROBLEM WHICH I HAVE ENCOUNTERED TODAY WHILE AT MY INTERNSHIP TODAY. I WAS CREATING A COUPLE OF DOCUMENTS AND, I TRIED HITTING THE F7 KEY TO CHECK MY SPELLING AND GRAMMER AND, NOTHING HAPPENED. DO I NEED TO CHANGE SOMETHING IN THE OPTIONS OR HOW CAN I FIX THIS PROBLEM? THANKS A BUNCH, AMY my Sabo amylsabo at comcast.net 303-588-7725 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 17:23:32 2012 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cynthia Bennett) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:23:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions Message-ID: Texas: I did not see Southern Strums on the convention agenda this year. Is it not happening? Or was it not included on the agenda since it is off site? If it is happening, is it too late for submissions? I am asking, because I have a good friend at BLIND, Inc. who is an excellent guitarist. If submissions have not closed, can someone tell me how auditions take place? Does each act have to contain a singer? Are there acts that might need a guitarist? Are there instruments on hand for musicians who may not be able to or wish to afford checking their instruments at the airport? My friend will be attending his first NFB event, and I think this would be a great opportunity for him to meet other blind musicians and share his talents. So, if someone from TABS could email me off list with answers to these questions, even if Southern Strums is not happening this year, but so I can know for the future, that would be great. Thanks. -- Cynthia Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Tue Jun 5 17:28:24 2012 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:28:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions References: Message-ID: <002201cd4340$9cbe2f50$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Cindy and everyone, Southern Strums will not occur this year. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia Bennett" To: "National Asociation of Blind Students" Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:23 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions Texas: I did not see Southern Strums on the convention agenda this year. Is it not happening? Or was it not included on the agenda since it is off site? If it is happening, is it too late for submissions? I am asking, because I have a good friend at BLIND, Inc. who is an excellent guitarist. If submissions have not closed, can someone tell me how auditions take place? Does each act have to contain a singer? Are there acts that might need a guitarist? Are there instruments on hand for musicians who may not be able to or wish to afford checking their instruments at the airport? My friend will be attending his first NFB event, and I think this would be a great opportunity for him to meet other blind musicians and share his talents. So, if someone from TABS could email me off list with answers to these questions, even if Southern Strums is not happening this year, but so I can know for the future, that would be great. Thanks. -- Cynthia Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Jun 5 17:31:59 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:31:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What is "Southern Strums?" When I attended convention, two years ago, in Dallas, there was no mention of it! I'm a musician, that plays the piano, and guitar! I'm interested! Thanks, Joshua On 6/5/12, Cynthia Bennett wrote: > Texas: > > I did not see Southern Strums on the convention agenda this year. Is > it not happening? Or was it not included on the agenda since it is off > site? If it is happening, is it too late for submissions? I am asking, > because I have a good friend at BLIND, Inc. who is an excellent > guitarist. If submissions have not closed, can someone tell me how > auditions take place? Does each act have to contain a singer? Are > there acts that might need a guitarist? Are there instruments on hand > for musicians who may not be able to or wish to afford checking their > instruments at the airport? My friend will be attending his first NFB > event, and I think this would be a great opportunity for him to meet > other blind musicians and share his talents. So, if someone from TABS > could email me off list with answers to these questions, even if > Southern Strums is not happening this year, but so I can know for the > future, that would be great. > > Thanks. > > -- > Cynthia Bennett > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > 828.989.5383 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Jun 5 17:32:54 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:32:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions In-Reply-To: <002201cd4340$9cbe2f50$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <002201cd4340$9cbe2f50$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Did it occur, 2 years ago, in Dallas? Thanks, Joshua On 6/5/12, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Cindy and everyone, > > Southern Strums will not occur this year. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cynthia Bennett" > To: "National Asociation of Blind Students" > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:23 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions > > > Texas: > > I did not see Southern Strums on the convention agenda this year. Is > it not happening? Or was it not included on the agenda since it is off > site? If it is happening, is it too late for submissions? I am asking, > because I have a good friend at BLIND, Inc. who is an excellent > guitarist. If submissions have not closed, can someone tell me how > auditions take place? Does each act have to contain a singer? Are > there acts that might need a guitarist? Are there instruments on hand > for musicians who may not be able to or wish to afford checking their > instruments at the airport? My friend will be attending his first NFB > event, and I think this would be a great opportunity for him to meet > other blind musicians and share his talents. So, if someone from TABS > could email me off list with answers to these questions, even if > Southern Strums is not happening this year, but so I can know for the > future, that would be great. > > Thanks. > > -- > Cynthia Bennett > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > 828.989.5383 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From gcazares10 at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 17:47:50 2012 From: gcazares10 at gmail.com (Gabe Cazares) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:47:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions In-Reply-To: References: <002201cd4340$9cbe2f50$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <000301cd4343$540647e0$fc12d7a0$@com> Hi Cynthia, Joshua, and All, Unfortunately, we will not be hosting Southern Strums any longer. Joshua, it did occur in 2010, in fact that was our most successful Strums, might I add. I'm glad you guys are coming to convention though, our affiliate is in full prep swing for all of our Federation family here in Texas. Best, ...Gabe Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfbtx.org/tabs Phone: 713-581-0619 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions Did it occur, 2 years ago, in Dallas? Thanks, Joshua On 6/5/12, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Cindy and everyone, > > Southern Strums will not occur this year. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cynthia Bennett" > To: "National Asociation of Blind Students" > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:23 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions > > > Texas: > > I did not see Southern Strums on the convention agenda this year. Is > it not happening? Or was it not included on the agenda since it is off > site? If it is happening, is it too late for submissions? I am asking, > because I have a good friend at BLIND, Inc. who is an excellent > guitarist. If submissions have not closed, can someone tell me how > auditions take place? Does each act have to contain a singer? Are > there acts that might need a guitarist? Are there instruments on hand > for musicians who may not be able to or wish to afford checking their > instruments at the airport? My friend will be attending his first NFB > event, and I think this would be a great opportunity for him to meet > other blind musicians and share his talents. So, if someone from TABS > could email me off list with answers to these questions, even if > Southern Strums is not happening this year, but so I can know for the > future, that would be great. > > Thanks. > > -- > Cynthia Bennett > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > 828.989.5383 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r > r.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud > ents.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5045 - Release Date: 06/04/12 From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Jun 5 17:51:11 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:51:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions In-Reply-To: <000301cd4343$540647e0$fc12d7a0$@com> References: <002201cd4340$9cbe2f50$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <000301cd4343$540647e0$fc12d7a0$@com> Message-ID: If I had known about it, I would've attended! Was it mentioned in the agenda, and I overlooked it, or what? Thanks, Joshua On 6/5/12, Gabe Cazares wrote: > Hi Cynthia, Joshua, and All, > Unfortunately, we will not be hosting Southern Strums any longer. Joshua, > it > did occur in 2010, in fact that was our most successful Strums, might I > add. > I'm glad you guys are coming to convention though, our affiliate is in full > prep swing for all of our Federation family here in Texas. > Best, > > ...Gabe > > Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President > Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National > Federation of the Blind of Texas) > www.nfbtx.org/tabs > Phone: 713-581-0619 > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:33 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions > > Did it occur, 2 years ago, in Dallas? > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/5/12, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Hello Cindy and everyone, >> >> Southern Strums will not occur this year. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Cynthia Bennett" >> To: "National Asociation of Blind Students" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:23 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions >> >> >> Texas: >> >> I did not see Southern Strums on the convention agenda this year. Is >> it not happening? Or was it not included on the agenda since it is off >> site? If it is happening, is it too late for submissions? I am asking, >> because I have a good friend at BLIND, Inc. who is an excellent >> guitarist. If submissions have not closed, can someone tell me how >> auditions take place? Does each act have to contain a singer? Are >> there acts that might need a guitarist? Are there instruments on hand >> for musicians who may not be able to or wish to afford checking their >> instruments at the airport? My friend will be attending his first NFB >> event, and I think this would be a great opportunity for him to meet >> other blind musicians and share his talents. So, if someone from TABS >> could email me off list with answers to these questions, even if >> Southern Strums is not happening this year, but so I can know for the >> future, that would be great. >> >> Thanks. >> >> -- >> Cynthia Bennett >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> 828.989.5383 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >> ents.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail.com > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5045 - Release Date: 06/04/12 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From hai at knfbreader.com Tue Jun 5 18:10:14 2012 From: hai at knfbreader.com (Hai Nguyen Ly) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 14:10:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Mentoring opportunity at National Convention Message-ID: <2AE6F34A-1F1C-4246-8D8F-DB478B167AD4@knfbreader.com> Greetings Nabsters: My name is Hai Nguyen Ly and I am chairman of the NFB Research and Development Committee. I'm sending the below message to the list on behalf of the committee and John Miller, president of the Science and Engineering Division. Efficiency and productivity are essential in science and technology. Do you have an idea in need of development? As we continue our ongoing search for the most elegant solutions to engineering and research questions large and small, we combine a meeting of the NFB Research and Development committee with the Science and Engineering Division to promote mentorship opportunities for students and developers of the technology of tomorrow. Please join us for an enlightening meeting featuring presentations from students and professionals and get your questions answered regarding access to science, technology, engineering, and math. To view a copy of the agenda, please navigate to the following link: http://goo.gl/dMJt6 In an effort to promote positive experiences for students wishing to pursue a STEM related major, the R&D Committee and the Science and Engineering Division would like to reach out to students wishing to connect with a potential mentor. We wish to collect the following information from those who would like a mentor: Are you a current student at a college or university? If yes, please tell us the name of the college/university you are attending. What is your current field of Study? Do you plan to attend the joint R&D and Science and Engineering meeting July 2 in Dallas? Interested individuals should email their responses to the questions above to: hai at knfbreader.com no later than Friday June 15th. I look forward to meeting you all in Dallas. Cordially: Hai Nguyen Ly, Chair Research and Development Committee National Federation of the Blind From gcazares10 at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 18:13:40 2012 From: gcazares10 at gmail.com (Gabe Cazares) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:13:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions In-Reply-To: References: <002201cd4340$9cbe2f50$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <000301cd4343$540647e0$fc12d7a0$@com> Message-ID: <000701cd4346$efe338f0$cfa9aad0$@com> No, in 2010 it was held offsite so it was not mentioned in the Agenda. ...Gabe Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfbtx.org/tabs Phone: 713-581-0619 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions If I had known about it, I would've attended! Was it mentioned in the agenda, and I overlooked it, or what? Thanks, Joshua On 6/5/12, Gabe Cazares wrote: > Hi Cynthia, Joshua, and All, > Unfortunately, we will not be hosting Southern Strums any longer. > Joshua, it did occur in 2010, in fact that was our most successful > Strums, might I add. > I'm glad you guys are coming to convention though, our affiliate is in > full prep swing for all of our Federation family here in Texas. > Best, > > ...Gabe > > Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President Texas Association of Blind > Students - TABS (A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of > Texas) www.nfbtx.org/tabs > Phone: 713-581-0619 > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:33 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions > > Did it occur, 2 years ago, in Dallas? > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/5/12, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Hello Cindy and everyone, >> >> Southern Strums will not occur this year. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Cynthia Bennett" >> To: "National Asociation of Blind Students" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:23 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions >> >> >> Texas: >> >> I did not see Southern Strums on the convention agenda this year. Is >> it not happening? Or was it not included on the agenda since it is >> off site? If it is happening, is it too late for submissions? I am >> asking, because I have a good friend at BLIND, Inc. who is an >> excellent guitarist. If submissions have not closed, can someone tell >> me how auditions take place? Does each act have to contain a singer? >> Are there acts that might need a guitarist? Are there instruments on >> hand for musicians who may not be able to or wish to afford checking >> their instruments at the airport? My friend will be attending his >> first NFB event, and I think this would be a great opportunity for >> him to meet other blind musicians and share his talents. So, if >> someone from TABS could email me off list with answers to these >> questions, even if Southern Strums is not happening this year, but so >> I can know for the future, that would be great. >> >> Thanks. >> >> -- >> Cynthia Bennett >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> 828.989.5383 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx. >> r >> r.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stu >> d >> ents.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail > .com > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5045 - Release Date: > 06/04/12 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud > ents.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5048 - Release Date: 06/05/12 From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Jun 5 18:30:03 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:30:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions In-Reply-To: <000701cd4346$efe338f0$cfa9aad0$@com> References: <002201cd4340$9cbe2f50$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <000301cd4343$540647e0$fc12d7a0$@com> <000701cd4346$efe338f0$cfa9aad0$@com> Message-ID: I wonder what's going on, off sight, this year! I want to know what's going on! Thanks, Joshua On 6/5/12, Gabe Cazares wrote: > No, in 2010 it was held offsite so it was not mentioned in the Agenda. > > ...Gabe > > Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President > Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National > Federation of the Blind of Texas) > www.nfbtx.org/tabs > Phone: 713-581-0619 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:51 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions > > If I had known about it, I would've attended! > Was it mentioned in the agenda, and I overlooked it, or what? > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/5/12, Gabe Cazares wrote: >> Hi Cynthia, Joshua, and All, >> Unfortunately, we will not be hosting Southern Strums any longer. >> Joshua, it did occur in 2010, in fact that was our most successful >> Strums, might I add. >> I'm glad you guys are coming to convention though, our affiliate is in >> full prep swing for all of our Federation family here in Texas. >> Best, >> >> ...Gabe >> >> Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President Texas Association of Blind >> Students - TABS (A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of >> Texas) www.nfbtx.org/tabs >> Phone: 713-581-0619 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Joshua Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions >> >> Did it occur, 2 years ago, in Dallas? >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 6/5/12, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> Hello Cindy and everyone, >>> >>> Southern Strums will not occur this year. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Cynthia Bennett" >>> To: "National Asociation of Blind Students" >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:23 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions >>> >>> >>> Texas: >>> >>> I did not see Southern Strums on the convention agenda this year. Is >>> it not happening? Or was it not included on the agenda since it is >>> off site? If it is happening, is it too late for submissions? I am >>> asking, because I have a good friend at BLIND, Inc. who is an >>> excellent guitarist. If submissions have not closed, can someone tell >>> me how auditions take place? Does each act have to contain a singer? >>> Are there acts that might need a guitarist? Are there instruments on >>> hand for musicians who may not be able to or wish to afford checking >>> their instruments at the airport? My friend will be attending his >>> first NFB event, and I think this would be a great opportunity for >>> him to meet other blind musicians and share his talents. So, if >>> someone from TABS could email me off list with answers to these >>> questions, even if Southern Strums is not happening this year, but so >>> I can know for the future, that would be great. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> -- >>> Cynthia Bennett >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> 828.989.5383 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx. >>> r >>> r.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stu >>> d >>> ents.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail >> .com >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5045 - Release Date: >> 06/04/12 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >> ents.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail.com > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5048 - Release Date: 06/05/12 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Jun 5 18:35:39 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:35:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! Message-ID: Hi, all. I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, will attend the Jaws 14 debut! I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, "Viva Mexico!" This is the USA, and we should all support our country! I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that turned me off, 2 years ago. Who was that guy? Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? Thanks, Joshua From freethaught at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 21:06:45 2012 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 17:06:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Someone looking for blind people to take part in a fun little study In-Reply-To: References: <84F01553E96349DC8F6EFDBA08629C5C@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <4FCE74E5.5090302@gmail.com> What is the compensation for this study. What qualifies it as a "study." Just wondering. Antonio On 6/1/2012 6:40 PM, Jewel wrote: > Sounds like a good survey. Too bad I have more than a decade of experience with textbased games like this. Oh well > --Jewel > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 1, 2012, at 4:51 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: > >> Hello, >> This is sort of off topic, but there is someone doing research for how blind people navigate Virtual worlds. He wants people that haven’t had much experience playing IF or Muds. His message is below: >> >> Begin quote: >> Hello! >> >> I'm doing research on text based online roleplaying games. It is specifically about parameters of immersion for blind and sighted players. If you are interested in participating in a small study about this, I would be happy, if you could aid me. It would be good, if you wouldn't have too much experience in playing Interactive Fiction or Multi-User-Dungeons, though. >> >> The tests will be conducted throughout June and can be done at home, though with a skype or phone connection to me. The whole test shouldn't take longer than one and a half hour. >> >> If you are interested in participating, please drop me an email: katta at frimble.net and then we can sort out the specifics. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> katta >> End quote. >> >> To move it more on topic though, I think playing IF and Muds as well as other audio games are the best way for one to learn the computer. I’ve often wondered why VI instructors try teaching Jaws doing these deathly boring exercises when all they need to do is set up VIP Mud and let the person go... In the process one learns how to use alt commands, moving using tab, moving through pages using the arrow keys, reading with both the page up and down, home and end keys and in order to get Jaws to sound like they want, it requires they explore the Jaws dictionary. Also when playing Muds it’s a given that players will develop the ability to type extremely fast and their knowledge of the keyboard will become so second nature they will be able to hit any key without thinking about it. >> Playing Muds in particular also leads one to become more familiar with scripting for software which often leads to an interest in programming. Because the STEM fields are feared by many blind individuals, being able to have a first hand experience on how not scary software engineering is a fantastic way to guide blind students to garner a passion for computers. >> Thank you, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com -- Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 21:20:33 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:20:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] taking a break In-Reply-To: <691E9194B55247FBB580B141689DE72F@OwnerPC> References: <691E9194B55247FBB580B141689DE72F@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <007901cd4361$0bfe0d20$23fa2760$@gmail.com> Hi Ashley, I hope to see you back here soon! Have fun while you're out of town!! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 11:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] taking a break All, I’m taking a break from some of my lists while I’m out of town. I’ll be back next week. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 21:46:19 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:46:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: References: <4fcbd458.c4be320a.266f.4300@mx.google.com> <01F110E4FE364274B6C431287F742826@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <008001cd4364$a51af3d0$ef50db70$@gmail.com> Hi Joshua, You can change that. Just go to www.nfbnet.org and log in with your email address and list password (if you forget your password, click the "email password" button to have it emailed to you) to your member options. On the options page, you'll see a lot of radio buttons, one of which should be about receiving copies of your posts. Check no, then go down to the bottom and click save, and you should be good to go. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:29 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? I agree, Ashley! I'm having problems with the other lists. I was hoping the moderators would solve the problem, for the rest of the lists, like he did, for this one. I don't want to receive copies of my messages, after I send them, to Music Talk, or NFB Talk. The NFB Arkansas list does that to me, as well as Perform-Talk. Thanks, Joshua On 6/3/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Beth, > That is good you caught your own error. the nfb lists generally run > fine and > > when they don't David Andrews puts out a message. So, if messages > don't go through, I first suspect it is an error on my part. > In your case, it was on your end. well, mistakes happen, its good you > caught > > it. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:16 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? > > Oh, it's resolved. Apparently, I spelled the darn address wrong. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Nusbaum To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? > > Hi Beth, > > I would try emailing Dave Andrews about this. > > Chris Nusbaum > > "For we walk by faith, not by sight." > 2 Corinthians 5:7 > > Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koby To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:51:47 -0600 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? > > Okay. > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Beth wrote: > > Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing I > want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can > understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the part of. > :) Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Koby To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? > > Who will It be for? > Koby > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth wrote: > > I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, and it > failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully someone can > help. > > Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if > anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need You in > a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. > I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next wek. > I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google recommends > and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my Apex to email and > surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates MetroLyrics as well as some > other lyrics sites. If anyone has the lyrics written down, both Faith > and Tim's part, just send them to me as an attachment off list. > Thanks. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud > ents.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Jun 5 21:51:38 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 16:51:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? In-Reply-To: <008001cd4364$a51af3d0$ef50db70$@gmail.com> References: <4fcbd458.c4be320a.266f.4300@mx.google.com> <01F110E4FE364274B6C431287F742826@OwnerPC> <008001cd4364$a51af3d0$ef50db70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks! Blessings, Joshua On 6/5/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Joshua, > > You can change that. Just go to www.nfbnet.org and log in with your email > address and list password (if you forget your password, click the "email > password" button to have it emailed to you) to your member options. On the > options page, you'll see a lot of radio buttons, one of which should be > about receiving copies of your posts. Check no, then go down to the bottom > and click save, and you should be good to go. > > Hope this helps, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:29 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? > > I agree, Ashley! > I'm having problems with the other lists. > I was hoping the moderators would solve the problem, for the rest of the > lists, like he did, for this one. > I don't want to receive copies of my messages, after I send them, to Music > Talk, or NFB Talk. > The NFB Arkansas list does that to me, as well as Perform-Talk. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/3/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Beth, >> That is good you caught your own error. the nfb lists generally run >> fine and >> >> when they don't David Andrews puts out a message. So, if messages >> don't go through, I first suspect it is an error on my part. >> In your case, it was on your end. well, mistakes happen, its good you >> caught >> >> it. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Beth >> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:16 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? >> >> Oh, it's resolved. Apparently, I spelled the darn address wrong. >> Beth >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Chris Nusbaum > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? >> >> Hi Beth, >> >> I would try emailing Dave Andrews about this. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> "For we walk by faith, not by sight." >> 2 Corinthians 5:7 >> >> Sent from my BrailleNote >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Koby > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:51:47 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? >> >> Okay. >> Koby >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jun 3, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Beth > wrote: >> >> Basically, I'm performing for some friends in the east. Nothing I >> want this list to know, but I'd love the lyrics so that I can >> understand the diction of the singer I'm supposed to sing the part of. >> :) Beth >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Koby > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with the music list, what's going on? >> >> Who will It be for? >> Koby >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Beth > wrote: >> >> I tried to send the following message to music-tlk at nfbnet.org, and it >> failed twice! Why? Here's my message, and hopefully someone can >> help. >> >> Hi, guys. It's Beth from Denver, Colorado. I'd like to know if >> anyone has a written copy of Faith Hill nd Tim McGraw's I Need You in >> a Word 97-2003 doc file or a ric text format or text file. >> I need the lyrics because I'm doing a performance sometime next wek. >> I can't sem to get the lyrics off of the websites Google recommends >> and because my commputer broke, I'm stuck using my Apex to email and >> surf the web. Well, the BrailleNote hates MetroLyrics as well as some >> other lyrics sites. If anyone has the lyrics written down, both Faith >> and Tim's part, just send them to me as an attachment off list. >> Thanks. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma >> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >> se%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gma >> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo >> se%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >> ents.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 23:15:56 2012 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:15:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Joshua, I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your message. Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you were sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only exceptions I know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front of the middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical order. Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be somewhere behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section over. Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this section of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you could investigate why this may be the case. I hope this helps answer some of your questions. Take care, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Joshua Lester" Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > Hi, all. > I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! > I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, > will attend the Jaws 14 debut! > I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no > mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! > Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? > I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. > Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, > "Viva Mexico!" > This is the USA, and we should all support our country! > I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that > turned me off, 2 years ago. > Who was that guy? > Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! > Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? > Thanks, Joshua > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Jun 5 23:20:56 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 18:20:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the Florida section was the one that blurted it out. Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that bullhorn. Thanks, Joshua On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: > Hello Joshua, > > I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your message. > Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you were > > sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find > disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. > > As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates are > always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only exceptions I > > know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think > sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front of the > > middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical order. > > Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be somewhere > > behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in your > isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section over. > Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this section > > of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you could > investigate why this may be the case. > > I hope this helps answer some of your questions. > > Take care, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Joshua Lester" > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > >> Hi, all. >> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >> "Viva Mexico!" >> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >> turned me off, 2 years ago. >> Who was that guy? >> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Wed Jun 6 13:53:32 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 09:53:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that comment. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the Florida section was the one that blurted it out. Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that bullhorn. Thanks, Joshua On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: > Hello Joshua, > > I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your message. > Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you > were > > sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find > disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. > > As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates > are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only > exceptions I > > know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think > sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front > of the > > middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical order. > > Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be > somewhere > > behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in > your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section over. > Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this > section > > of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you > could investigate why this may be the case. > > I hope this helps answer some of your questions. > > Take care, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Joshua Lester" > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > >> Hi, all. >> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >> "Viva Mexico!" >> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >> turned me off, 2 years ago. >> Who was that guy? >> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud > ents.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 6 15:31:16 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 10:31:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: It was disrespectful, because it happened, right as our blind veterans were exiting the stage. Blessings, Joshua On 6/6/12, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: > Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they > don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that > comment. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the > Florida section was the one that blurted it out. > Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. > I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that > bullhorn. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >> Hello Joshua, >> >> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your > message. >> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you > >> were >> >> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >> >> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates > >> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >> exceptions I >> >> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >> of the >> >> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical > order. >> >> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >> somewhere >> >> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section > over. >> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >> section >> >> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >> could investigate why this may be the case. >> >> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >> >> Take care, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >> >>> Hi, all. >>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>> "Viva Mexico!" >>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >>> turned me off, 2 years ago. >>> Who was that guy? >>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >>> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >> ents.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 15:54:02 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 08:54:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: Vive veterans sounds better than viva Mexico... They allow bullhorns? That's crude. Do they try to make the tables set up like the U.S. with CA on the lower left, Oregon up, Washington above that, then British Columbia above that? Or is everything random? Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 8:31 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! It was disrespectful, because it happened, right as our blind veterans were exiting the stage. Blessings, Joshua On 6/6/12, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: > Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they > don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that > comment. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the > Florida section was the one that blurted it out. > Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. > I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that > bullhorn. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >> Hello Joshua, >> >> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your > message. >> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you > >> were >> >> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >> >> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates > >> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >> exceptions I >> >> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >> of the >> >> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical > order. >> >> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >> somewhere >> >> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section > over. >> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >> section >> >> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >> could investigate why this may be the case. >> >> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >> >> Take care, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >> >>> Hi, all. >>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>> "Viva Mexico!" >>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >>> turned me off, 2 years ago. >>> Who was that guy? >>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >>> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >> ents.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 6 15:57:16 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 10:57:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: Go here, to listen to past conventions, and you'll here this horn! http://www.nfb.org/conventions I don't know how they do the sections. Blessings, Joshua On 6/6/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Vive veterans sounds better than viva Mexico... > They allow bullhorns? > That's crude. > Do they try to make the tables set up like the U.S. with CA on the lower > left, Oregon up, Washington above that, then British Columbia above that? Or > > is everything random? > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 8:31 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > It was disrespectful, because it happened, right as our blind veterans > were exiting the stage. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/6/12, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >> Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they >> don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that >> comment. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Joshua Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >> >> I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the >> Florida section was the one that blurted it out. >> Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. >> I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that >> bullhorn. >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >>> Hello Joshua, >>> >>> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your >> message. >>> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you >> >>> were >>> >>> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >>> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >>> >>> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates >> >>> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >>> exceptions I >>> >>> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >>> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >>> of the >>> >>> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical >> order. >>> >>> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >>> somewhere >>> >>> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >>> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section >> over. >>> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >>> section >>> >>> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >>> could investigate why this may be the case. >>> >>> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>> >>>> Hi, all. >>>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>>> "Viva Mexico!" >>>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >>>> turned me off, 2 years ago. >>>> Who was that guy? >>>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >>> ents.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 16:10:12 2012 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 18:10:12 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <-4661728724961659028@unknownmsgid> Joshua usually gets annoyed by things that nobody else minds... But I guess that's the good thing about having several opinions on the list... Sent from my iPhone On Jun 6, 2012, at 3:55 PM, "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: > Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they > don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that > comment. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the > Florida section was the one that blurted it out. > Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. > I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that > bullhorn. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >> Hello Joshua, >> >> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your > message. >> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you > >> were >> >> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >> >> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates > >> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >> exceptions I >> >> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >> of the >> >> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical > order. >> >> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >> somewhere >> >> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section > over. >> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >> section >> >> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >> could investigate why this may be the case. >> >> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >> >> Take care, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >> >>> Hi, all. >>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>> "Viva Mexico!" >>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >>> turned me off, 2 years ago. >>> Who was that guy? >>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >>> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >> ents.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 16:13:36 2012 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 18:13:36 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <8239681303009796427@unknownmsgid> I went to convention in 2010 and honestly thought the horn thing was rather entertaining and never disrespectful. They only used it when the croud was clapping or cheering at something and it made the atmosphere just nicer. In the context of general sessions I really didn't see anything wrong with it. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 6, 2012, at 6:00 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Go here, to listen to past conventions, and you'll here this horn! > http://www.nfb.org/conventions > I don't know how they do the sections. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/6/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Vive veterans sounds better than viva Mexico... >> They allow bullhorns? >> That's crude. >> Do they try to make the tables set up like the U.S. with CA on the lower >> left, Oregon up, Washington above that, then British Columbia above that? Or >> >> is everything random? >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 8:31 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >> >> It was disrespectful, because it happened, right as our blind veterans >> were exiting the stage. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 6/6/12, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >>> Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they >>> don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that >>> comment. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Joshua Lester >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>> >>> I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the >>> Florida section was the one that blurted it out. >>> Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. >>> I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that >>> bullhorn. >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> >>> On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >>>> Hello Joshua, >>>> >>>> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your >>> message. >>>> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you >>> >>>> were >>>> >>>> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >>>> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >>>> >>>> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates >>> >>>> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >>>> exceptions I >>>> >>>> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >>>> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >>>> of the >>>> >>>> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical >>> order. >>>> >>>> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >>>> somewhere >>>> >>>> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >>>> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section >>> over. >>>> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >>>> section >>>> >>>> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >>>> could investigate why this may be the case. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >>>> >>>> Take care, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>>> >>>>> Hi, all. >>>>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>>>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>>>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>>>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>>>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>>>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>>>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>>>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>>>> "Viva Mexico!" >>>>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>>>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >>>>> turned me off, 2 years ago. >>>>> Who was that guy? >>>>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>>>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >>>> ents.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 6 16:15:48 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:15:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: <-4661728724961659028@unknownmsgid> References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <-4661728724961659028@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Well: as a nativist, I'm offended by people that want to become citizens of this country, but still give their alegance to the country they left! If you want to be here, assimulate to our culture! JMHO! Let's get this thread on the topic of the NABS list. I'm really excited about the formation of the Arkansas Association of Blind Students! I hope we'll be able to have a booth, with our affiliate, this year. Blessings, Joshua On 6/6/12, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Joshua usually gets annoyed by things that nobody else minds... But I > guess that's the good thing about having several opinions on the > list... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 3:55 PM, "Wasif, Zunaira" > wrote: > >> Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they >> don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that >> comment. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Joshua Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >> >> I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the >> Florida section was the one that blurted it out. >> Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. >> I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that >> bullhorn. >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >>> Hello Joshua, >>> >>> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your >> message. >>> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you >> >>> were >>> >>> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >>> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >>> >>> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates >> >>> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >>> exceptions I >>> >>> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >>> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >>> of the >>> >>> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical >> order. >>> >>> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >>> somewhere >>> >>> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >>> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section >> over. >>> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >>> section >>> >>> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >>> could investigate why this may be the case. >>> >>> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>> >>>> Hi, all. >>>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>>> "Viva Mexico!" >>>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >>>> turned me off, 2 years ago. >>>> Who was that guy? >>>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >>> ents.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From valandkayla at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 16:49:15 2012 From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:49:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: <-4661728724961659028@unknownmsgid> References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <-4661728724961659028@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <674220D6-BDEA-47FB-ADB1-F0DFDEB072C5@gmail.com> regarding the below post: could we keep the insults, however passive aggressive, off list? thank you. On Jun 6, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Joshua usually gets annoyed by things that nobody else minds... But I > guess that's the good thing about having several opinions on the > list... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 3:55 PM, "Wasif, Zunaira" > wrote: > >> Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they >> don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that >> comment. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Joshua Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >> >> I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the >> Florida section was the one that blurted it out. >> Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. >> I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that >> bullhorn. >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >>> Hello Joshua, >>> >>> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your >> message. >>> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you >> >>> were >>> >>> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >>> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >>> >>> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates >> >>> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >>> exceptions I >>> >>> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >>> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >>> of the >>> >>> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical >> order. >>> >>> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >>> somewhere >>> >>> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >>> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section >> over. >>> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >>> section >>> >>> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >>> could investigate why this may be the case. >>> >>> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>> >>>> Hi, all. >>>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>>> "Viva Mexico!" >>>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >>>> turned me off, 2 years ago. >>>> Who was that guy? >>>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >>> ents.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com From gcazares10 at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 17:13:55 2012 From: gcazares10 at gmail.com (Gabe Cazares) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 12:13:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: <674220D6-BDEA-47FB-ADB1-F0DFDEB072C5@gmail.com> References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <-4661728724961659028@unknownmsgid> <674220D6-BDEA-47FB-ADB1-F0DFDEB072C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301cd4407$c2126e20$46374a60$@com> Hi All, National convention is a large scale event that attracts all kinds of people, and we shouldn't let ourselves get annoyed by little things that people do. I'm definitely not saying that we need to tolerate disrespectful behavior, but I do think there are far more important things to be concerned about then people making comments or blowing a horn. We here in Texas are excited to be welcoming all of you back to our state at the end of the month, and we sincerely hope that you are excited about coming too! Best, ...Gabe Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfbtx.org/tabs Phone: 713-581-0619 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 11:49 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! regarding the below post: could we keep the insults, however passive aggressive, off list? thank you. On Jun 6, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Joshua usually gets annoyed by things that nobody else minds... But I > guess that's the good thing about having several opinions on the > list... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 3:55 PM, "Wasif, Zunaira" > wrote: > >> Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that >> they don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue >> with that comment. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Joshua Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >> >> I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the >> Florida section was the one that blurted it out. >> Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. >> I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that >> bullhorn. >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >>> Hello Joshua, >>> >>> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your >> message. >>> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where >>> you >> >>> were >>> >>> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >>> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >>> >>> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state >>> affiliates >> >>> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >>> exceptions I >>> >>> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >>> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >>> of the >>> >>> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical >> order. >>> >>> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >>> somewhere >>> >>> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >>> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section >> over. >>> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >>> section >>> >>> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >>> could investigate why this may be the case. >>> >>> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>> >>>> Hi, all. >>>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>>> "Viva Mexico!" >>>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing >>>> that turned me off, 2 years ago. >>>> Who was that guy? >>>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hot >>>> ma >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40st >>> ud >>> ents.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gm >> ail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmai > l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5052 - Release Date: 06/06/12 From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 6 17:19:57 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 12:19:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: <000301cd4407$c2126e20$46374a60$@com> References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <-4661728724961659028@unknownmsgid> <674220D6-BDEA-47FB-ADB1-F0DFDEB072C5@gmail.com> <000301cd4407$c2126e20$46374a60$@com> Message-ID: I know we'll have a good time, regardless. I'm really excited about this year's convention. I went through the schedule. Will Dr Kurzweil be there? Thanks, Joshua On 6/6/12, Gabe Cazares wrote: > Hi All, > National convention is a large scale event that attracts all kinds of > people, and we shouldn't let ourselves get annoyed by little things that > people do. I'm definitely not saying that we need to tolerate disrespectful > behavior, but I do think there are far more important things to be > concerned > about then people making comments or blowing a horn. We here in Texas are > excited to be welcoming all of you back to our state at the end of the > month, and we sincerely hope that you are excited about coming too! > Best, > > ...Gabe > > Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President > Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National > Federation of the Blind of Texas) > www.nfbtx.org/tabs > Phone: 713-581-0619 > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Valerie Gibson > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 11:49 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > regarding the below post: could we keep the insults, however passive > aggressive, off list? thank you. > On Jun 6, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> Joshua usually gets annoyed by things that nobody else minds... But I >> guess that's the good thing about having several opinions on the >> list... >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jun 6, 2012, at 3:55 PM, "Wasif, Zunaira" >> wrote: >> >>> Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that >>> they don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue >>> with that comment. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Joshua Lester >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>> >>> I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the >>> Florida section was the one that blurted it out. >>> Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. >>> I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that >>> bullhorn. >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> >>> On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >>>> Hello Joshua, >>>> >>>> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your >>> message. >>>> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where >>>> you >>> >>>> were >>>> >>>> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >>>> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >>>> >>>> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state >>>> affiliates >>> >>>> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >>>> exceptions I >>>> >>>> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >>>> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >>>> of the >>>> >>>> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical >>> order. >>>> >>>> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >>>> somewhere >>>> >>>> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >>>> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section >>> over. >>>> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >>>> section >>>> >>>> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >>>> could investigate why this may be the case. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >>>> >>>> Take care, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>>> >>>>> Hi, all. >>>>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>>>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>>>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>>>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>>>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>>>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>>>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>>>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>>>> "Viva Mexico!" >>>>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>>>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing >>>>> that turned me off, 2 years ago. >>>>> Who was that guy? >>>>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>>>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hot >>>>> ma >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40st >>>> ud >>>> ents.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gm >>> ail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmai >> l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail.com > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5052 - Release Date: 06/06/12 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 18:07:53 2012 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:07:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Braillenote email w/Gmail Message-ID: Hey List, I've heard a lot about e-mail with the Braillenote, but I've never actually done it before. If I have a gmail account, how do I connect the Braillenote to that account to send/receive e-mails? Patrick From gpaikens at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 18:51:46 2012 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 13:51:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Braillenote email w/Gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3AA4DA5D-F4FA-4190-A224-7D79B2C93ADD@gmail.com> Hi Patrick, I recently did this with an Apex and it was not difficult once I found the information I needed from google, such as the name of the servers for sending and receiving mail and their respective port numbers. This page contains the information you need from google: http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=13287 As for setting up the account on the Apex, I do not remember the exact steps. In Keymail, you want the settings menu and there should be an option to add an account. The braille note manual has a helpful section on how to fill out the boxes on the account setup page. It should tell you how to put the info from the link above into your braille note. The downside to using Keymail, as I understand it, is that it does not support imap. What that means is that , it does not sync with your gmail account, but only downloads messages from the server. So, if you deleted a message on your braille note, it would not automatically delete it from the server etc. As far as I can tell Keymail doesn't support imap. Does anyone else know different? -Greg On Jun 6, 2012, at 1:07 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Hey List, > I've heard a lot about e-mail with the Braillenote, but I've never > actually done it before. If I have a gmail account, how do I connect > the Braillenote to that account to send/receive e-mails? > Patrick > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 19:08:14 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:08:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Braillenote email w/Gmail Message-ID: <4fcfaad6.85b5320a.6ae9.38d7@mx.google.com> Same here. That was what I would have written. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Aikens dear Patrick, \ Go to Settings on your computer and look at the POP configurations for "all other clients" or some such thing. I use my BrailleNote since my commputer broke to check email. I use the POP configurations on the settings section of the actual Gmail site. That should do. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Molloy References: <4fcfaad6.85b5320a.6ae9.38d7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Greg and Beth, Thanks! I did what you guys said and now everything seems to be working. So, thanks for your help! Patrick On 6/6/12, Beth wrote: > Same here. That was what I would have written. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 13:51:46 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Braillenote email w/Gmail > > Hi Patrick, > I recently did this with an Apex and it was not difficult once I > found the information I needed from google, such as the name of > the servers for sending and receiving mail and their respective > port numbers. This page contains the information you need from > google: > http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=13287 > > As for setting up the account on the Apex, I do not remember the > exact steps. In Keymail, you want the settings menu and there > should be an option to add an account. The braille note manual > has a helpful section on how to fill out the boxes on the account > setup page. It should tell you how to put the info from the link > above into your braille note. > > The downside to using Keymail, as I understand it, is that it > does not support imap. What that means is that , it does not > sync with your gmail account, but only downloads messages from > the server. So, if you deleted a message on your braille note, > it would not automatically delete it from the server etc. As far > as I can tell Keymail doesn't support imap. Does anyone else > know different? > > -Greg > On Jun 6, 2012, at 1:07 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: > > Hey List, > I've heard a lot about e-mail with the Braillenote, but I've > never > actually done it before. If I have a gmail account, how do I > connect > the Braillenote to that account to send/receive e-mails? > Patrick > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 21:56:46 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 17:56:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! Message-ID: <4fcfd241.511c340a.4944.7c3e@mx.google.com> I think the airhorn guy is David Evans. He was doing it probably because the convention was in Orlando and that's a FL thing, but I'm not sure. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Hello Joshua, I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your message. Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you were sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only exceptions I know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front of the middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical order. Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be somewhere behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section over. Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this section of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you could investigate why this may be the case. I hope this helps answer some of your questions. Take care, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Joshua Lester" References: <4fcfd241.511c340a.4944.7c3e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: He did it in Dallas, 2 years ago. Blessings, Joshua On 6/6/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I think the airhorn guy is David Evans. He was doing it probably > because the convention was in Orlando and that's a FL thing, but > I'm not sure. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my BrailleNote > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 18:20:56 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from > the > Florida section was the one that blurted it out. > Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. > I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from > that bullhorn. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: > Hello Joshua, > > I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your > message. > Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of > where you were > > sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find > disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. > > As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state > affiliates are > always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only > exceptions I > > know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I > think > sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the > front of the > > middle isle regardless of how this places them in the > alphabetical order. > > Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would > be somewhere > > behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind > you in your > isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section > over. > Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with > this section > > of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps > you could > investigate why this may be the case. > > I hope this helps answer some of your questions. > > Take care, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Joshua Lester" Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > Hi, all. > I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! > I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending > convention, > will attend the Jaws 14 debut! > I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was > no > mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! > Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? > I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. > Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone > says, > "Viva Mexico!" > This is the USA, and we should all support our country! > I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing > that > turned me off, 2 years ago. > Who was that guy? > Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! > Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years > ago? > Thanks, Joshua > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > otmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 01:50:36 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:50:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! Message-ID: <4fd00902.10f8640a.1608.6356@mx.google.com> I hope you got your booth, Joshua. But also, no love for the melting pot? ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua Lester wrote: Joshua usually gets annoyed by things that nobody else minds... But I guess that's the good thing about having several opinions on the list... Sent from my iPhone On Jun 6, 2012, at 3:55 PM, "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that comment. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the Florida section was the one that blurted it out. Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that bullhorn. Thanks, Joshua On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: Hello Joshua, I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your message. Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you were sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only exceptions I know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front of the middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical order. Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be somewhere behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section over. Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this section of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you could investigate why this may be the case. I hope this helps answer some of your questions. Take care, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Joshua Lester" References: <4fd00902.10f8640a.1608.6356@mx.google.com> Message-ID: LOL! You know where I stand. Blessings, Joshua On 6/6/12, Sophie Trist wrote: > I hope you got your booth, Joshua. But also, no love for the > melting pot? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:15:48 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > Well: as a nativist, I'm offended by people that want to become > citizens of this country, but still give their alegance to the > country > they left! > If you want to be here, assimulate to our culture! > JMHO! > Let's get this thread on the topic of the NABS list. > I'm really excited about the formation of the Arkansas > Association of > Blind Students! > I hope we'll be able to have a booth, with our affiliate, this > year. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/6/12, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Joshua usually gets annoyed by things that nobody else minds... > But I > guess that's the good thing about having several opinions on the > list... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 3:55 PM, "Wasif, Zunaira" > wrote: > > Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means > that they > don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue > with that > comment. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from > the > Florida section was the one that blurted it out. > Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. > I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from > that > bullhorn. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: > Hello Joshua, > > I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your > message. > Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of > where you > > were > > sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find > disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. > > As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state > affiliates > > are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The > only > exceptions I > > know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I > think > sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the > front > of the > > middle isle regardless of how this places them in the > alphabetical > order. > > Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would > be > somewhere > > behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you > in > your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next > section > over. > Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with > this > section > > of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps > you > could investigate why this may be the case. > > I hope this helps answer some of your questions. > > Take care, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Joshua Lester" Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > Hi, all. > I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! > I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending > convention, > will attend the Jaws 14 debut! > I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was > no > mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! > Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? > I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. > Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone > says, > "Viva Mexico!" > This is the USA, and we should all support our country! > I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing > that > turned me off, 2 years ago. > Who was that guy? > Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! > Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years > ago? > Thanks, Joshua > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > otma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0stud > ents.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif > %40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra% > 40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 01:27:09 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 18:27:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: NVDA screen reader News: Announcing The Release of NVDA 2012.2! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006d01cd4515$d386a9a0$7a93fce0$@gmail.com> Please See below: -----Original Message----- From: nvda-announce-bounces at lists.nvaccess.org [mailto:nvda-announce-bounces at lists.nvaccess.org] On Behalf Of NVDA announcement list Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 6:23 PM To: nvda-announce at lists.nvaccess.org Subject: NVDA screen reader News: Announcing The Release of NVDA 2012.2! NV Access is pleased to announce the release of NVDA 2012.2. This release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for production use and is recommended for most users. Highlights of this release include an in-built installer and portable creation feature, automatic updates, easy management of new NVDA add-ons, announcement of graphics in Microsoft Word, support for Windows 8 Metro style apps, and several important bug fixes. To read more and to find links to download, please visit: http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2012.2Released We would like to thank all who have contributed to this release, including all those who have donated to ensure continued development. Please consider donating to NV Access to support NVDA's continued development: http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate -- This is the NVDA announcement mailing list. To unsubscribe or edit your options, please visit: http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-announce From cbuckley at pdx.edu Fri Jun 8 02:06:34 2012 From: cbuckley at pdx.edu (Chrys Buckley) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 19:06:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Info on Accessible websites? Message-ID: Hi everyone, I am looking into putting together a website but I want to make sure it is accessible to everyone. However, I don't use a screen reader myself so I don't have a clear picture of what is or isn't accessible on a site. I just use some of the enlargement/contrast features on Universal Access on a Mac. Are there any definite do's and don'ts? I'm thinking of starting out on wordpress (simply because I don't have any web design skills) - does anyone know if wordpress is accessible? Any info would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Chrys -- http://chrysanthymum.blogspot.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Jun 8 02:17:06 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 21:17:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Info on Accessible websites? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey! I love the blog! Blessings, Joshua On 6/7/12, Chrys Buckley wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I am looking into putting together a website but I want to make sure it is > accessible to everyone. However, I don't use a screen reader myself so I > don't have a clear picture of what is or isn't accessible on a site. I just > use some of the enlargement/contrast features on Universal Access on a Mac. > Are there any definite do's and don'ts? I'm thinking of starting out on > wordpress (simply because I don't have any web design skills) - does anyone > know if wordpress is accessible? > > Any info would be greatly appreciated! > > Thanks, > Chrys > > > > > -- > http://chrysanthymum.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From gcazares10 at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 02:20:12 2012 From: gcazares10 at gmail.com (Gabe Cazares) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 21:20:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Male Looking for a Room for the NFB National Convention Message-ID: <000301cd451d$3c5f7770$b51e6650$@com> Hi All, I know of an 18 year old male that is looking for a room for this year's national convention. If you have a room, and are seeking a roommate, please reply to me off list so I can get you guys connected. Thanks, ...Gabe Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of Texas) www.nfbtx.org/tabs Phone: 713-581-0619 From anthony at olivero.us Fri Jun 8 10:27:32 2012 From: anthony at olivero.us (Tony Olivero) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 05:27:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Info on Accessible websites? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chrys, My responses are below. On 6/7/12, Chrys Buckley wrote: > I am looking into putting together a website but I want to make sure it is > accessible to everyone. Excellent to see that you are interested in making sure your site is accessible to everyone. > Are there any definite do's and don'ts? There are definitely an entire set of guidelines for web developers that talk about what to do and what not to when building websites. The entire Web Content Accessibility Guidelines can be found at http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20. However, since you are talking about a blog platform, and not coding things from scratch you may find that document overwhelming. It may be of use if you ever branch out and expand your web design skills. > I'm thinking of starting out on > wordpress (simply because I don't have any web design skills) - does anyone > know if wordpress is accessible? The default theme that is loaded when you install Wordpress is fairly accessible. If you want to explore the theme gallery and choose your own I would make sure you find one that has a good heading structure so your visitors can navigate to different sections and content items quickly. Also, I would check to see that the blog comment fields are labeled for blind users (if you load VoiceOver on your mac and tab to the fields VoiceOver should speak the name). Additionally, I would avoid using the RECAPTCHA plugin for spam elimination. I have had very good success removing spam with the Akismit plugin and no extra test to see if the comment is posted by a human. If you post images, make sure you include a description of the image as well. Those are just a few thoughts. I'm happy to answer any other questions you have. Tony From anthony at olivero.us Fri Jun 8 10:44:02 2012 From: anthony at olivero.us (Tony Olivero) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 05:44:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention Agenda in Calendar Formats In-Reply-To: <4BE97DBF-FE22-48B8-8C59-A29FDBB988F2@gmail.com> References: <4BE97DBF-FE22-48B8-8C59-A29FDBB988F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: All: Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Here is a comprehensive article from Google's help system on how to add your gmail account in the manner I talked about in my original message. http://support.google.com/mobile/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=138740 I have found that adding my Google account in this way gives me a lot of flexibility. My mail, contacts, and calendar are all synced with my phone, and my mail and calendar are, by using Google Calendar Sync, synced with Outlook on my laptop. (I haven't found an automatic way to sync contacts between Google and outlook). In addition, I have a shared calendar as well as a couple additional calendars that are also automatically synced to my phone. Note that you should disable or delete any existing accounts that are set up as "gmail". Hope this helps. Tony On 5/30/12, Chelsea Page wrote: > Im in the same boat Marsha. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 30, 2012, at 8:18 AM, "Marsha Drenth" > wrote: > >> Toni, >> >> Can you give a quick and easy outline of how to get the convention agenda >> on >> an Iphone? Please. Even though I have been using the Iphone for a year >> now, >> I still feel like I am a iphone virgin. LOL you can email me off list, >> marsha.drenth at gmail.com to prevent clogging up the list. >> >> Thank you, >> Marsha >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Tony Olivero >> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 2:48 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >> nebraska-students at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention Agenda in Calendar Formats >> >> All: >> >> For those of you who would like to use the convention agenda in >> something other than Microsoft Word, here are a few different formats >> that I created after putting all the events on a Google Calendar: >> >> iCal (for adding to your Google Calendar, Outlook, or other calendar >> program): http://j.mp/LYvrXo >> HTML (view in your browser): http://j.mp/LCiH28 >> Microsoft Excel: http://j.mp/JIWoxN >> >> you can use the iCal link if you use a Google Calendar, or a device >> like an iPhone or iPad that supports it, to add the calendar to your >> mobile device. If you are using Google Calendar in a web browser, >> adding the ical feed will allow you to toggle on and off the display >> of the agenda. You can also copy events directly to your calendar, and >> not sync the Agenda to your mobile device, but view it in the browser >> if you find you need to see what else is happening in addition to your >> own plans. >> >> For those of you using iDevices, it is best if you have your google >> account added as a Microsoft Exchange account, not a Google Account (I >> know, it seems strange, but this will allow you to sync mail, >> contacts, and calendars between your phone and Google without using >> another app). Once you have done this, you can go to >> http://m.google.com/sync (from your phone) to control which items are >> synced to your phone. >> >> I know some of this may be confusing if you haven't done it before, so >> if you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'll certainly try to >> help. >> >> Also, be aware that the Texas affiliate has placed the entire agenda, >> in an HTML file suitable for computers, mobile phones or notetakers, >> on their website at http://j.mp/LMtElc >> >> Tony >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmail.co >> m >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/chelseap08%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anthony%40olivero.us > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 12:10:36 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 08:10:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! Message-ID: <4fd1ebe0.7413340a.21b8.ffffcffc@mx.google.com> I know; we here in Maryland always screw everything up because we're such a big affiliate! Thanks a lot, national center! * Smile! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth" References: <4fd1ebe0.7413340a.21b8.ffffcffc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8AFFB8D1E8D6904090DF5B33AABB802506F677324E@VA3DIAXVS661.RED001.local> Hi Josh, I would also remind you that people come to our convention from many different countries. I have no problem with them having as much pride in their country as you do in yours. Jesse -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 8:11 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! I know; we here in Maryland always screw everything up because we're such a big affiliate! Thanks a lot, national center! * Smile! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my BrailleNote ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth" References: Message-ID: So this is interesting.... In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind. ~Louis Pasteur, lecture 1854 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Andrews Date: Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:37 PM Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation of the Blind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org *FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE * *CONTACT: * Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281(Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org *National Federation of the Blind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries* *Condemns Practice of Paying Subminimum Wages to Workers with Disabilities* *Baltimore, Maryland (June 7, 2012):* The National Federation of the Blind(NFB), one of the oldest and largest organizations of Americans with disabilities, today called for a boycott of Goodwill Industries International, Inc., the nonprofit manufacturer and retailer, for its payment of subminimum wages to many of its workers with disabilities. Freedom of information requests filed by the NFB confirmed that Goodwill Industries employees have been paid as low as $1.44 an hour. The NFB and over forty-five other organizationssupport legislation, the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act(H.R. 3086), which would phase out and then repeal the nearly seventy-five-year-old provision of the Fair Labor Standards Act that permits special certificate holdersto pay subminimum wages to workers with disabilities. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: “Goodwill Industries is one of the most well-known and lucrative charitable organizations in the United States, yet it chooses to pay its workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum wage. While this practice is currently legal and many entities engage in it, many other nonprofit organizations have successfully transitioned to paying their employees the minimum wage or higher. That Goodwill Industries exploits many of its workers in this way is ironic, because its president and chief executive officer is blind. Goodwill cannot credibly argue that workers with disabilities are incapable of doing productive work while paying its blind CEO over half a million dollars a year. Goodwill should be ashamed of such blatant hypocrisy. We are calling upon all Americans to refuse to do business with Goodwill Industries, to refuse to make donations to the subminimum-wage exploiter, and to refuse to shop in its retail stores until it exercises true leadership and sound moral judgment by fairly compensating its workers with disabilities.” For more information on this critically important issue, please visit www.nfb.org/fairwages. *### * * * * * *About the National Federation of the Blind * With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people’s lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. * * _______________________________________________ Nfbnet-members-list mailing list Nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org From cbuckley at pdx.edu Fri Jun 8 17:38:25 2012 From: cbuckley at pdx.edu (Chrys Buckley) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 10:38:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Info on Accessible websites? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Joshua - thanks! That's my old blog, I haven't updated it in something like two years. I had fun with it but I am ready to move on to something else and this time will be building my blog/site for more professional purposes. Tony - thank you so, so much for all this helpful information! You're right, that document is a bit overwhelming. To be honest, my coding skills are pretty limited right now and I have a feeling even wordpress will have a learning curve, as I've read there's a fair amount of coding involved. So I'll probably start with that and go from there. I will definitely try things out with VoiceOver - I've experimented with it off and on but don't know it all that well, so trying things on my site/blog out with VoiceOver may be a good thing on a few levels. And don't worry, there will be no capcta things anywhere. They are so, so frustrating. I'll look into Akismit. All this info is so helpful. Do you have a wordpress site? Or know of any that are run by blind people that are accessible? It might be good to try out VoiceOver on something that is already working right before trying it out on mine. Thank you! Chrys On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:27 AM, Tony Olivero wrote: > Chrys, > > My responses are below. > > On 6/7/12, Chrys Buckley wrote: > > I am looking into putting together a website but I want to make sure it > is > > accessible to everyone. > > Excellent to see that you are interested in making sure your site is > accessible to everyone. > > > Are there any definite do's and don'ts? > > There are definitely an entire set of guidelines for web developers > that talk about what to do and what not to when building websites. The > entire Web Content Accessibility Guidelines can be found at > http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20. However, since you are talking about a > blog platform, and not coding things from scratch you may find that > document overwhelming. It may be of use if you ever branch out and > expand your web design skills. > > > I'm thinking of starting out on > > wordpress (simply because I don't have any web design skills) - does > anyone > > know if wordpress is accessible? > > The default theme that is loaded when you install Wordpress is fairly > accessible. If you want to explore the theme gallery and choose your > own I would make sure you find one that has a good heading structure > so your visitors can navigate to different sections and content items > quickly. Also, I would check to see that the blog comment fields are > labeled for blind users (if you load VoiceOver on your mac and tab to > the fields VoiceOver should speak the name). Additionally, I would > avoid using the RECAPTCHA plugin for spam elimination. I have had very > good success removing spam with the Akismit plugin and no extra test > to see if the comment is posted by a human. If you post images, make > sure you include a description of the image as well. > > Those are just a few thoughts. I'm happy to answer any other questions you > have. > > Tony > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cbuckley%40pdx.edu > -- http://chrysanthymum.blogspot.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 21:53:07 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 16:53:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation of theBlind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries Message-ID: <4fd2745b.0369650a.4666.ffffab01@mx.google.com> I=20forwarded=20it=20to=20a=20lot=20of=20my=20offlist,=20non-blind=20contac= ts=20in=20 hopes=20that=20they=20will=20take=20up=20the=20boycott=20as=20well.=20We=20= need=20to=20 spread=20this! =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Stephanie=20H.=20DeLuca"=20,Elizabeth=20Dong=20,=20Thuy=20 Tuong=20Nguyen=20,Kristian=20Kaufmann=20 ,=20Meryl=20Harsadi=20 ,Julia=20Koehler=20 ,=20Mom=20,=20 Alice=20DeLuca=20(NFB),=20one=20of=20the=20oldest=20and=20largest organizations=20of=20Americans=20with disabilities,=20today=20called=20for=20a=20boycott=20of=20Goodwill=20Indust= ries International,=20Inc.,=20the=20nonprofit=20manufacturer=20and=20retailer,=20= for=20 its payment=20of=20subminimum=20wages=20to=20many=20of=20its=20workers=20with=20= disabilities. Freedom=20of=20information=20requests=20filed=20by=20the=20NFB=20confirmed= =20that=20 Goodwill Industries=20employees=20have=20been=20paid=20as=20low=20as=20$1.44=20an=20= hour.=20=20The=20 NFB=20and=20over forty-five=20other organizationssupport legislation,=20the=20Fair Wages=20for=20Workers=20with=20Disabilities Act(H..R. 3086),=20which=20would=20phase=20out=20and=20then=20repeal=20the=20nearly seventy-five-year-old=20provision=20of=20the=20Fair=20Labor=20Standards=20A= ct=20 that permits=20special=20certificate holdersto=20 pay subminimum=20wages=20to=20workers=20with=20disabilities. Dr.=20Marc=20Maurer,=20President=20of=20the=20National=20Federation=20of=20= the Blind, said:=20=93Goodwill=20Industries=20is=20one=20of=20the=20most=20well-known= =20and=20 lucrative charitable=20organizations=20in=20the=20United=20States,=20yet=20it=20choos= es=20to=20 pay=20its workers=20with=20disabilities=20less=20than=20the=20federal=20minimum=20wag= e.=20=20 While=20this practice=20is=20currently=20legal=20and=20many=20entities=20engage=20in=20i= t,=20many=20 other nonprofit=20organizations=20have=20successfully=20transitioned=20to=20payin= g=20 their employees=20the=20minimum=20wage=20or=20higher.=20=20That=20Goodwill=20Indu= stries=20 exploits many=20of=20its=20workers=20in=20this=20way=20is=20ironic,=20because=20its= =20president=20 and=20chief executive=20officer=20is=20blind.=20=20Goodwill=20cannot=20credibly=20argue= =20that=20 workers with=20disabilities=20are=20incapable=20of=20doing=20productive=20work=20wh= ile=20 paying=20its blind=20CEO=20over=20half=20a=20million=20dollars=20a=20year.=20=20Goodwill= =20should=20be=20 ashamed of=20such=20blatant=20hypocrisy.=20=20=20We=20are=20calling=20upon=20all=20= Americans=20to=20 refuse=20to do=20business=20with=20Goodwill=20Industries,=20to=20refuse=20to=20make=20d= onations=20 to=20the subminimum-wage=20exploiter,=20and=20to=20refuse=20to=20shop=20in=20its=20r= etail=20 stores=20until it=20exercises=20true=20leadership=20and=20sound=20moral=20judgment=20by=20= fairly compensating=20its=20workers=20with=20disabilities.=94 For=20more=20information=20on=20this=20critically=20important=20issue,=20pl= ease=20 visit www.nfb.org/fairwages. *### * * * * * *About=20the=20National=20Federation=20of=20the=20Blind * With=20more=20than=2050,000=20members,=20the=20National=20Federation=20of=20= the=20 Blind=20is=20the largest=20and=20most=20influential=20membership=20organization=20of=20blind= =20 people=20in=20the United=20States.=20=20=20The=20NFB=20improves=20blind=20people=92s=20lives= =20through=20 advocacy, education,=20research,=20technology,=20and=20programs=20encouraging=20 independence=20and self-confidence.=20=20It=20is=20the=20leading=20force=20in=20the=20blindnes= s=20field=20 today=20and the=20voice=20of=20the=20nation's=20blind.=20=20In=20January=202004=20the=20= NFB=20opened=20 the National=20Federation=20of=20the=20Blind=20Jernigan=20Institute,=20the=20fi= rst=20 research=20and training=20center=20in=20the=20United=20States=20for=20the=20blind=20led=20= by=20the=20 blind. * * _______________________________________________ Nfbnet-members-list=20mailing=20list Nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 22:02:53 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 16:02:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation of theBlind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries In-Reply-To: <4fd2745b.0369650a.4666.ffffab01@mx.google.com> References: <4fd2745b.0369650a.4666.ffffab01@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I read this release with great interest because my friend's mother works at Goodwill with some of the disabled employees. My friend has a disability too and is very supportive of the Fair Wages Act, so I asked her if she knew anything about the wages that Goodwill pays its workers. She made a good point, which is that the low wages might only be a problem in some Goodwill branches, not at all branches. She seems to think the wages are not centralized. Instead of just boycotting the national franchise, it might be wise to do a little research and email someone at your local branch to find out if they do in fact pay their workers below the minimum wage. This would also be a good opportunity for us to educate local decisionmakers about the importance of fair wages and to commend those who do pay appropriate wages to their disabled workers. Best, Arielle On 6/8/12, Sophie Trist wrote: > I forwarded it to a lot of my offlist, non-blind contacts in > hopes that they will take up the boycott as well. We need to > spread this! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephanie H. DeLuca" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > ,Elizabeth Dong , Thuy > Tuong Nguyen ,Kristian Kaufmann > , Meryl Harsadi > ,Julia Koehler > , Mom , > Alice DeLuca Date sent: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 10:22:29 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National > Federation of theBlind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries > > So this is interesting.... > > In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared > mind. > ~Louis Pasteur, lecture 1854 > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: David Andrews Date: Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:37 PM > Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation of the > Blind Urges > Boycott of Goodwill Industries > To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > > > > *FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > * > > > *CONTACT: > * > Chris Danielsen > > Director of Public Relations > > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281(Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > > > *National Federation of the Blind Urges Boycott of Goodwill > Industries* > > > *Condemns Practice of Paying Subminimum Wages to Workers with > Disabilities* > > > > *Baltimore, Maryland (June 7, 2012):* The National Federation of > the > Blind(NFB), one of the oldest and largest > organizations of Americans with > disabilities, today called for a boycott of Goodwill Industries > International, Inc., the nonprofit manufacturer and retailer, for > its > payment of subminimum wages to many of its workers with > disabilities. > Freedom of information requests filed by the NFB confirmed that > Goodwill > Industries employees have been paid as low as $1.44 an hour. The > NFB and over > forty-five other > organizations pport_List_2.doc>support > legislation, the Fair > Wages for Workers with Disabilities > Act 012.pdf>(H..R. > 3086), which would phase out and then repeal the nearly > seventy-five-year-old provision of the Fair Labor Standards Act > that > permits special certificate > holdersto > pay > subminimum wages to workers with disabilities. > > > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the > Blind, > said: “Goodwill Industries is one of the most well-known and > lucrative > charitable organizations in the United States, yet it chooses to > pay its > workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum wage. > While this > practice is currently legal and many entities engage in it, many > other > nonprofit organizations have successfully transitioned to paying > their > employees the minimum wage or higher. That Goodwill Industries > exploits > many of its workers in this way is ironic, because its president > and chief > executive officer is blind. Goodwill cannot credibly argue that > workers > with disabilities are incapable of doing productive work while > paying its > blind CEO over half a million dollars a year. Goodwill should be > ashamed > of such blatant hypocrisy. We are calling upon all Americans to > refuse to > do business with Goodwill Industries, to refuse to make donations > to the > subminimum-wage exploiter, and to refuse to shop in its retail > stores until > it exercises true leadership and sound moral judgment by fairly > compensating its workers with disabilities.” > > > > For more information on this critically important issue, please > visit > www.nfb.org/fairwages. > > > > > > *### > * > > * > * > > * > * > *About the National Federation of the Blind > * > > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the > Blind is the > largest and most influential membership organization of blind > people in the > United States. The NFB improves blind people’s lives through > advocacy, > education, research, technology, and programs encouraging > independence and > self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field > today and > the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened > the > National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first > research and > training center in the United States for the blind led by the > blind. > > * > * > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nfbnet-members-list mailing list > Nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > From gcazares10 at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 00:46:30 2012 From: gcazares10 at gmail.com (Gabe Cazares) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 19:46:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation of the Blind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries In-Reply-To: References: <4fd2745b.0369650a.4666.ffffab01@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000001cd45d9$5020d080$f0627180$@com> Hi All, I too read the press release with much interest, because a very good non-disabled friend of mine is the Youth Program Director for the Goodwill in her area. I concur with the point that Arielle makes, in fact, I plan on talking with my friend to see what the status is for disabled employees in her region, I am a definite supporter of fair wages, but I too believe that we can also take this opportunity to educate and create awareness among the local leaders of this company. If Goodwill receives pressure to compensate its disabled workers from us, as well as from within its own ranks, then perhaps the outcome we desire will be reached much sooner. It's mind boggling to know that even now, in the twenty first century, the practice of paying people less than the minimum wage is allowed, and not only that, protected by law. ...Gabe Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 5:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation of theBlind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries Hi all, I read this release with great interest because my friend's mother works at Goodwill with some of the disabled employees. My friend has a disability too and is very supportive of the Fair Wages Act, so I asked her if she knew anything about the wages that Goodwill pays its workers. She made a good point, which is that the low wages might only be a problem in some Goodwill branches, not at all branches. She seems to think the wages are not centralized. Instead of just boycotting the national franchise, it might be wise to do a little research and email someone at your local branch to find out if they do in fact pay their workers below the minimum wage. This would also be a good opportunity for us to educate local decisionmakers about the importance of fair wages and to commend those who do pay appropriate wages to their disabled workers. Best, Arielle On 6/8/12, Sophie Trist wrote: > I forwarded it to a lot of my offlist, non-blind contacts in hopes > that they will take up the boycott as well. We need to spread this! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephanie H. DeLuca" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > ,Elizabeth Dong , Thuy Tuong > Nguyen ,Kristian Kaufmann > , Meryl Harsadi ,Julia > Koehler , Mom , > Alice DeLuca -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation > of theBlind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries > > So this is interesting.... > > In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind. > ~Louis Pasteur, lecture 1854 > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: David Andrews Date: Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:37 PM > Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation of the > Blind Urges > Boycott of Goodwill Industries > To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > > > > *FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > * > > > *CONTACT: > * > Chris Danielsen > > Director of Public Relations > > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281(Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > > > *National Federation of the Blind Urges Boycott of Goodwill > Industries* > > > *Condemns Practice of Paying Subminimum Wages to Workers with > Disabilities* > > > > *Baltimore, Maryland (June 7, 2012):* The National Federation of > the > Blind(NFB), one of the oldest and largest > organizations of Americans with > disabilities, today called for a boycott of Goodwill Industries > International, Inc., the nonprofit manufacturer and retailer, for > its > payment of subminimum wages to many of its workers with > disabilities. > Freedom of information requests filed by the NFB confirmed that > Goodwill > Industries employees have been paid as low as $1.44 an hour. The > NFB and over > forty-five other > organizations pport_List_2.doc>support > legislation, the Fair > Wages for Workers with Disabilities > Act 012.pdf>(H..R. > 3086), which would phase out and then repeal the nearly > seventy-five-year-old provision of the Fair Labor Standards Act > that > permits special certificate > holdersto > pay > subminimum wages to workers with disabilities. > > > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the > Blind, > said: "Goodwill Industries is one of the most well-known and > lucrative > charitable organizations in the United States, yet it chooses to > pay its > workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum wage. > While this > practice is currently legal and many entities engage in it, many > other > nonprofit organizations have successfully transitioned to paying > their > employees the minimum wage or higher. That Goodwill Industries > exploits > many of its workers in this way is ironic, because its president > and chief > executive officer is blind. Goodwill cannot credibly argue that > workers > with disabilities are incapable of doing productive work while > paying its > blind CEO over half a million dollars a year. Goodwill should be > ashamed > of such blatant hypocrisy. We are calling upon all Americans to > refuse to > do business with Goodwill Industries, to refuse to make donations > to the > subminimum-wage exploiter, and to refuse to shop in its retail > stores until > it exercises true leadership and sound moral judgment by fairly > compensating its workers with disabilities." > > > > For more information on this critically important issue, please > visit > www.nfb.org/fairwages. > > > > > > *### > * > > * > * > > * > * > *About the National Federation of the Blind > * > > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the > Blind is the > largest and most influential membership organization of blind > people in the > United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through > advocacy, > education, research, technology, and programs encouraging > independence and > self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field > today and > the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened > the > National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first > research and > training center in the United States for the blind led by the > blind. > > * > * > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nfbnet-members-list mailing list > Nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5056 - Release Date: 06/08/12 From dandrews at visi.com Sat Jun 9 03:28:13 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:28:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: NVDA screen reader News: Announcing The Release of NVDA 2012.2! Message-ID: > >NV Access is pleased to announce the release of NVDA 2012.2. This >release has been declared stable, which means it is suitable for >production use and is recommended for most users. >Highlights of this release include an in-built installer and >portable creation feature, automatic updates, easy management of new >NVDA add-ons, announcement of graphics in Microsoft Word, support >for Windows 8 Metro style apps, and several important bug fixes. > >To read more and to find links to download, please visit: >http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2012.2Released > >We would like to thank all who have contributed to this release, >including all those who have donated to ensure continued development. > >Please consider donating to NV Access to support NVDA's continued development: >http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 18:26:46 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 14:26:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation of theBlind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries In-Reply-To: References: <4fd2745b.0369650a.4666.ffffab01@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00d601cd466d$6e745630$4b5d0290$@gmail.com> Arielle, I agree! I will see what the wages are for workers with disabilities at our local branch and report back to you when I have the info. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 6:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation of theBlind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries Hi all, I read this release with great interest because my friend's mother works at Goodwill with some of the disabled employees. My friend has a disability too and is very supportive of the Fair Wages Act, so I asked her if she knew anything about the wages that Goodwill pays its workers. She made a good point, which is that the low wages might only be a problem in some Goodwill branches, not at all branches. She seems to think the wages are not centralized. Instead of just boycotting the national franchise, it might be wise to do a little research and email someone at your local branch to find out if they do in fact pay their workers below the minimum wage. This would also be a good opportunity for us to educate local decisionmakers about the importance of fair wages and to commend those who do pay appropriate wages to their disabled workers. Best, Arielle On 6/8/12, Sophie Trist wrote: > I forwarded it to a lot of my offlist, non-blind contacts in hopes > that they will take up the boycott as well. We need to spread this! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephanie H. DeLuca" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > ,Elizabeth Dong , Thuy Tuong > Nguyen ,Kristian Kaufmann > , Meryl Harsadi ,Julia > Koehler , Mom , > Alice DeLuca -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation > of theBlind Urges Boycott of Goodwill Industries > > So this is interesting.... > > In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind. > ~Louis Pasteur, lecture 1854 > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: David Andrews Date: Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:37 PM > Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Fwd: National Federation of the > Blind Urges > Boycott of Goodwill Industries > To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > > > > *FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > * > > > *CONTACT: > * > Chris Danielsen > > Director of Public Relations > > National Federation of the Blind > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > (410) 262-1281(Cell) > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > > > *National Federation of the Blind Urges Boycott of Goodwill > Industries* > > > *Condemns Practice of Paying Subminimum Wages to Workers with > Disabilities* > > > > *Baltimore, Maryland (June 7, 2012):* The National Federation of > the > Blind(NFB), one of the oldest and largest > organizations of Americans with > disabilities, today called for a boycott of Goodwill Industries > International, Inc., the nonprofit manufacturer and retailer, for > its > payment of subminimum wages to many of its workers with > disabilities. > Freedom of information requests filed by the NFB confirmed that > Goodwill > Industries employees have been paid as low as $1.44 an hour. The > NFB and over > forty-five other > organizations pport_List_2.doc>support > legislation, the Fair > Wages for Workers with Disabilities > Act 012.pdf>(H..R. > 3086), which would phase out and then repeal the nearly > seventy-five-year-old provision of the Fair Labor Standards Act > that > permits special certificate > holdersto > pay > subminimum wages to workers with disabilities. > > > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the > Blind, > said: "Goodwill Industries is one of the most well-known and > lucrative > charitable organizations in the United States, yet it chooses to > pay its > workers with disabilities less than the federal minimum wage. > While this > practice is currently legal and many entities engage in it, many > other > nonprofit organizations have successfully transitioned to paying > their > employees the minimum wage or higher. That Goodwill Industries > exploits > many of its workers in this way is ironic, because its president > and chief > executive officer is blind. Goodwill cannot credibly argue that > workers > with disabilities are incapable of doing productive work while > paying its > blind CEO over half a million dollars a year. Goodwill should be > ashamed > of such blatant hypocrisy. We are calling upon all Americans to > refuse to > do business with Goodwill Industries, to refuse to make donations > to the > subminimum-wage exploiter, and to refuse to shop in its retail > stores until > it exercises true leadership and sound moral judgment by fairly > compensating its workers with disabilities." > > > > For more information on this critically important issue, please > visit > www.nfb.org/fairwages. > > > > > > *### > * > > * > * > > * > * > *About the National Federation of the Blind > * > > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the > Blind is the > largest and most influential membership organization of blind > people in the > United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through > advocacy, > education, research, technology, and programs encouraging > independence and > self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field > today and > the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened > the > National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first > research and > training center in the United States for the blind led by the > blind. > > * > * > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nfbnet-members-list mailing list > Nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dandrews at visi.com Sat Jun 9 19:06:20 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 14:06:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: New Hadley modules Message-ID: > >New Hadley Entrepreneurship Modules Emphasize Networking and Technology >In September 2011, The Hadley School for the >Blind announced the launch of The Forsythe >Center for Entrepreneurship (FCE). The goal of >this new business, entrepreneurship and >technology program is to provide individuals who >are visually impaired with the knowledge, >resources and networking opportunities enabling >them to advance in their careers or to >successfully launch and grow their own businesses. >The program is designed to be practical, >relevant and interactive. Courses are open to >anyone who is blind or visually impaired, over >age 14 and is serious about starting or growing >a business. Coursework is offered free of charge >and is mostly online. Since the FCE opened in >September, more than 400 students have enrolled. >As of June 4, 2012, Hadley has introduced five >new “modules” as part of the Center: > >· FCE 290-Using PowerPoint 2010 > >· FCE 280-Networking with LinkedIn > >· FCE 220-Networking Skills > >· FCE 210-Obtaining Financing > >· FCE 180-Federal Government Benefits > >“Using PowerPoint 2010” introduces the steps in >creating a presentation in PowerPoint and >discusses what is involved with making a formal >presentation to an audience. The module includes >an exercise in preparing a slide show presentation. > >“Networking with LinkedIn” describes the social >networking site and its importance as a >networking tool. It presents the basics of >getting started with LinkedIn, such as opening >an account, creating a profile, and adding >connections. It also explores some of LinkedIn’s >more popular features. The module includes an >exercise in preparing your personal profile. > > >“Networking Skills” presents three common >networking techniques: establishing or >identifying new relationships, expanding on >these relationships, and then maintaining these >established relationships. The module includes >links to a number of social networking sites, as >well as an exercise in outlining your personal networking strategy. > > >“Obtaining Financing” presents the two basic >types of financing: debt financing and equity >financing, and their advantages and >disadvantages. It also discusses primary funding >sources such as family and friends, traditional >banks, and business angels, along with secondary >funding sources such as crowd financing, >microlenders, and federal government loans. > > > >“Federal Government Benefits” explores the >federal government benefits programs available >to those who are visually impaired. Monetary >programs such as Social Security Disability >Insurance (SSDI), Supplemental Security Income >(SSI), and Social Security retirement are >discussed, along with insurance programs such as >Medicare, Medicaid, Pre-Existing Condition >Insurance Plan, and Medigap. Work incentive >programs such as the Ticket to Work program and >state vocational rehabilitation, as well as how >to retain government benefits while working, are also presented. > >In addition to the new modules, the FCE has >introduced three new tools­the FCE Discussion >Group, Minding Your Own Business (MYOB) and the >Business Directory. The Discussion Group is a >conventional mailing list, where members can >discuss any aspects of starting and running a >business by posting questions or responses. In >addition, list members are encouraged to use >these contacts for networking among each other. >FCE-related announcements will also be posted on the list. > >Minding Your Own Business (MYOB) is a series of >business-related online discussions around >specific pre-determined topics, based on >students’ needs. The format of MYOB is >relatively flexible; usually it will start with >a short presentation followed by open >discussion. The next MYOB is “Social Networking >for Your Business” and is scheduled for June 4 at 2:00 p.m. Central Time. > >The Business Directory includes contact >information for businesses owned or operated by >blind and visually impaired individuals. This >directory is designed to provide current and >future business owners with inspiration and >access to the listed businesses, with the goal >of initiating networking opportunities among >blind and visually impaired business owners. > >“I’m very excited about the launch of these new >modules and resources. They cover several >different areas of expertise needed to launch or >grow a business­from practical issues such as >financing, to essential ‘soft skills’ such as >networking to utilizing technology such as >LinkedIn and PowerPoint. I’m confident our >students will find them interesting and >valuable,” says Program Director Tom Babinszki. > >For more information on the FCE and to enroll, >please visit www.hadley.edu/fce. > >### > > > > >About Hadley: Founded in 1920, The Hadley >School for the Blind’s mission is to promote >independent living through lifelong, distance >education programs for people who are blind or >visually impaired, their families and blindness >service providers. The world’s largest educator >of braille, Hadley enrolls 10,000 students in >all 50 states and 100 countries each year. For >more information, visit www.hadley.edu or call 800-323-4238. > > > >Tom Babinszki >Director, Forsythe Center for Entrepreneurship >The Hadley School for the Blind >700 Elm Street >Winnetka, IL 60093-2554 >Phone: 847-784-2804 >Fax: 847-446-0855 >E-mail: babinszki at hadley.edu > >Check us out online: >www.hadley.edu >www.facebook.com/thehadleyschoolfortheblind >www.twitter.com/thehadleyschool > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 9 21:22:29 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 17:22:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions In-Reply-To: References: <002201cd4340$9cbe2f50$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><000301cd4343$540647e0$fc12d7a0$@com> Message-ID: Joshua, it was in the convention agenda. It is like a concert. If you want to perform, I suggest you try out for the talent show. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 1:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions If I had known about it, I would've attended! Was it mentioned in the agenda, and I overlooked it, or what? Thanks, Joshua On 6/5/12, Gabe Cazares wrote: > Hi Cynthia, Joshua, and All, > Unfortunately, we will not be hosting Southern Strums any longer. Joshua, > it > did occur in 2010, in fact that was our most successful Strums, might I > add. > I'm glad you guys are coming to convention though, our affiliate is in > full > prep swing for all of our Federation family here in Texas. > Best, > > ...Gabe > > Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President > Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National > Federation of the Blind of Texas) > www.nfbtx.org/tabs > Phone: 713-581-0619 > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:33 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions > > Did it occur, 2 years ago, in Dallas? > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/5/12, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Hello Cindy and everyone, >> >> Southern Strums will not occur this year. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Cynthia Bennett" >> To: "National Asociation of Blind Students" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:23 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions >> >> >> Texas: >> >> I did not see Southern Strums on the convention agenda this year. Is >> it not happening? Or was it not included on the agenda since it is off >> site? If it is happening, is it too late for submissions? I am asking, >> because I have a good friend at BLIND, Inc. who is an excellent >> guitarist. If submissions have not closed, can someone tell me how >> auditions take place? Does each act have to contain a singer? Are >> there acts that might need a guitarist? Are there instruments on hand >> for musicians who may not be able to or wish to afford checking their >> instruments at the airport? My friend will be attending his first NFB >> event, and I think this would be a great opportunity for him to meet >> other blind musicians and share his talents. So, if someone from TABS >> could email me off list with answers to these questions, even if >> Southern Strums is not happening this year, but so I can know for the >> future, that would be great. >> >> Thanks. >> >> -- >> Cynthia Bennett >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> 828.989.5383 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >> ents.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail.com > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5045 - Release Date: 06/04/12 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 9 21:33:51 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 17:33:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: oh, I did not know bull horns were permitted. Gee, isn't cheering and clapping enough to show excitement! -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 11:57 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! Go here, to listen to past conventions, and you'll here this horn! http://www.nfb.org/conventions I don't know how they do the sections. Blessings, Joshua On 6/6/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Vive veterans sounds better than viva Mexico... > They allow bullhorns? > That's crude. > Do they try to make the tables set up like the U.S. with CA on the lower > left, Oregon up, Washington above that, then British Columbia above that? > Or > > is everything random? > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 8:31 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > It was disrespectful, because it happened, right as our blind veterans > were exiting the stage. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/6/12, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >> Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they >> don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that >> comment. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Joshua Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >> >> I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the >> Florida section was the one that blurted it out. >> Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. >> I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that >> bullhorn. >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >>> Hello Joshua, >>> >>> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your >> message. >>> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you >> >>> were >>> >>> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >>> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >>> >>> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates >> >>> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >>> exceptions I >>> >>> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >>> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >>> of the >>> >>> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical >> order. >>> >>> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >>> somewhere >>> >>> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >>> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section >> over. >>> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >>> section >>> >>> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >>> could investigate why this may be the case. >>> >>> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>> >>>> Hi, all. >>>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>>> "Viva Mexico!" >>>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >>>> turned me off, 2 years ago. >>>> Who was that guy? >>>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >>>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >>> ents.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sat Jun 9 21:47:38 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:47:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! In-Reply-To: References: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A69@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: I agree! BTW, Ashley, good to have you back! Blessings, Joshua On 6/9/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > oh, I did not know bull horns were permitted. > Gee, isn't cheering and clapping enough to show excitement! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 11:57 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! > > Go here, to listen to past conventions, and you'll here this horn! > http://www.nfb.org/conventions > I don't know how they do the sections. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/6/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Vive veterans sounds better than viva Mexico... >> They allow bullhorns? >> That's crude. >> Do they try to make the tables set up like the U.S. with CA on the lower >> left, Oregon up, Washington above that, then British Columbia above that? >> >> Or >> >> is everything random? >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 8:31 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >> >> It was disrespectful, because it happened, right as our blind veterans >> were exiting the stage. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 6/6/12, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >>> Just because someone comments "Viva Mexico," in no way means that they >>> don't support the US. I don't understand why you took issue with that >>> comment. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Joshua Lester >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>> >>> I was seated in the Arkansas section, and one of the guys from the >>> Florida section was the one that blurted it out. >>> Yeah, it's a part of life, but it still shouldn't have happened. >>> I'll investigate, so I can find a way to sit further away from that >>> bullhorn. >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> >>> On 6/5/12, Elizabeth wrote: >>>> Hello Joshua, >>>> >>>> I do not recall hearing about the comment you refer to in your >>> message. >>>> Perhaps it was just something someone said within earshot of where you >>> >>>> were >>>> >>>> sitting. Unfortunately, people sometimes say things others find >>>> disrespectful. I think this is simply a part of life. >>>> >>>> As far as the seating arrangements are concerned, the state affiliates >>> >>>> are always seated alphabetically during general sessions. The only >>>> exceptions I >>>> >>>> know about is the year they decided to do it backwards, and I think >>>> sometimes they place Maryland in the center of the room or the front >>>> of the >>>> >>>> middle isle regardless of how this places them in the alphabetical >>> order. >>>> >>>> Alphabetically speaking, it would make sense that Florida would be >>>> somewhere >>>> >>>> behind Arkansas. If Florida is not somewhere directly behind you in >>>> your isle, it could be they are just behind you in the next section >>> over. >>>> Although I cannot say for sure since I am not too familiar with this >>>> section >>>> >>>> of the room. If you find out it is the same this year, perhaps you >>>> could investigate why this may be the case. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps answer some of your questions. >>>> >>>> Take care, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Joshua Lester" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:35 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention, 2012! >>>> >>>>> Hi, all. >>>>> I can't wait, until June 29th, when I'll be leaving for Dallas! >>>>> I hope most of you, who are on this list, and attending convention, >>>>> will attend the Jaws 14 debut! >>>>> I looked at the agenda, and was shocked to find that there was no >>>>> mention of the Blind Driver Chalenge car! >>>>> Will it be in one of the exhibits, this year? >>>>> I never got to look at it, 2 years ago. >>>>> Also, during the general sessions, I'd appreciate it if noone says, >>>>> "Viva Mexico!" >>>>> This is the USA, and we should all support our country! >>>>> I know, that this comment was off topic, but that was one thing that >>>>> turned me off, 2 years ago. >>>>> Who was that guy? >>>>> Also, someone from Florida keeps blowing some kind of bullhorn! >>>>> Why was Florida seated behind the Arkansas section, two years ago? >>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >>>> ents.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sat Jun 9 21:48:59 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:48:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions In-Reply-To: References: <002201cd4340$9cbe2f50$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <000301cd4343$540647e0$fc12d7a0$@com> Message-ID: They don't do auditions for the talent show. I'm a member of the division, so I will be performing, this year. Blessings, Joshua On 6/9/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Joshua, > it was in the convention agenda. It is like a concert. If you want to > perform, I suggest you try out for the talent show. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 1:51 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions > > If I had known about it, I would've attended! > Was it mentioned in the agenda, and I overlooked it, or what? > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/5/12, Gabe Cazares wrote: >> Hi Cynthia, Joshua, and All, >> Unfortunately, we will not be hosting Southern Strums any longer. Joshua, >> it >> did occur in 2010, in fact that was our most successful Strums, might I >> add. >> I'm glad you guys are coming to convention though, our affiliate is in >> full >> prep swing for all of our Federation family here in Texas. >> Best, >> >> ...Gabe >> >> Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President >> Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National >> Federation of the Blind of Texas) >> www.nfbtx.org/tabs >> Phone: 713-581-0619 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Joshua Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:33 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions >> >> Did it occur, 2 years ago, in Dallas? >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 6/5/12, Peter Donahue wrote: >>> Hello Cindy and everyone, >>> >>> Southern Strums will not occur this year. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Cynthia Bennett" >>> To: "National Asociation of Blind Students" >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:23 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums Questions >>> >>> >>> Texas: >>> >>> I did not see Southern Strums on the convention agenda this year. Is >>> it not happening? Or was it not included on the agenda since it is off >>> site? If it is happening, is it too late for submissions? I am asking, >>> because I have a good friend at BLIND, Inc. who is an excellent >>> guitarist. If submissions have not closed, can someone tell me how >>> auditions take place? Does each act have to contain a singer? Are >>> there acts that might need a guitarist? Are there instruments on hand >>> for musicians who may not be able to or wish to afford checking their >>> instruments at the airport? My friend will be attending his first NFB >>> event, and I think this would be a great opportunity for him to meet >>> other blind musicians and share his talents. So, if someone from TABS >>> could email me off list with answers to these questions, even if >>> Southern Strums is not happening this year, but so I can know for the >>> future, that would be great. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> -- >>> Cynthia Bennett >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> 828.989.5383 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >>> r.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud >>> ents.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gcazares10%40gmail.com >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5045 - Release Date: 06/04/12 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brlsurfer at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 00:09:26 2012 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 16:09:26 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] power point help Message-ID: <4fd3d7a7.c1c0e00a.2015.18a8@mx.google.com> Hi, I'm using a netbook computer with Jaws 13, Microsoft Power-Point 2007 for a project. However, for some reason on my third slide, I'm stuck inside the title place holder. I've already written my title, and need to go into the object place holder, but for some reason after hitting Tab and Escape, it's still staying in the title place holder. Is there any other way to get into the object place holder? And while I'm at it, how do you save and label a power-point when you're finished so you can go back to it later? Thanks for your help, Vejas From PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu Sat Jun 9 23:13:49 2012 From: PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu (Justin Salisbury) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:13:49 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Message-ID: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D5B63@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Arielle, Gabe, and all: I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries would create a centralized (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to adopt a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local business leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals or achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I want to hear opinions on it. Justin Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD From PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu Sat Jun 9 23:19:15 2012 From: PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu (Justin Salisbury) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:19:15 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D5B63@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D5B63@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D5B72@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD ________________________________________ From: Justin Salisbury Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Goodwill Boycott Arielle, Gabe, and all: I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries would create a centralized (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to adopt a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local business leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals or achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I want to hear opinions on it. Justin Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 9 23:23:21 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:23:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] power point help In-Reply-To: <4fd3d7a7.c1c0e00a.2015.18a8@mx.google.com> References: <4fd3d7a7.c1c0e00a.2015.18a8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <81C1805113D14101AD002DC1F315C3C5@OwnerPC> Vejas, I wonder the problem. I use escape to switch to the object level, then press tab to the next place holder and either press enter or escapt to change to the edit level. I don't know why its not working. I'd try exiting powerpoint and going back into it. If that doesn't work, close all programs and restart the computer. If that doesn't work, then ask a sighted person to look at it and describe the screen to you. There might be a message there jaws isn't reading. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: vejas Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:09 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] power point help Hi, I'm using a netbook computer with Jaws 13, Microsoft Power-Point 2007 for a project. However, for some reason on my third slide, I'm stuck inside the title place holder. I've already written my title, and need to go into the object place holder, but for some reason after hitting Tab and Escape, it's still staying in the title place holder. Is there any other way to get into the object place holder? And while I'm at it, how do you save and label a power-point when you're finished so you can go back to it later? Thanks for your help, Vejas _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 23:27:08 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 17:27:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] power point help In-Reply-To: <81C1805113D14101AD002DC1F315C3C5@OwnerPC> References: <4fd3d7a7.c1c0e00a.2015.18a8@mx.google.com> <81C1805113D14101AD002DC1F315C3C5@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Yup, escape should get you out. You can save what you've done so far by pressing Alt-F, then A, and saving it like you would a Word doc. Then close, re-open and you should be back at the object level. Arielle On 6/9/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Vejas, > I wonder the problem. I use escape to switch to the object level, then press > > tab to the next place holder and either press enter or escapt to change to > the edit level. I don't know why its not working. I'd try exiting powerpoint > > and going back into it. If that doesn't work, close all programs and > restart the computer. If that doesn't work, then ask a sighted person to > look at it and describe the screen to you. There might be a message there > jaws isn't reading. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: vejas > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:09 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] power point help > > Hi, > I'm using a netbook computer with Jaws 13, Microsoft Power-Point > 2007 for a project. However, for some reason on my third slide, > I'm stuck inside the title place holder. I've already written my > title, and need to go into the object place holder, but for some > reason after hitting Tab and Escape, it's still staying in the > title place holder. Is there any other way to get into the > object place holder? > And while I'm at it, how do you save and label a power-point when > you're finished so you can go back to it later? > Thanks for your help, > Vejas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 00:09:22 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 18:09:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Message-ID: <4fd3e5b4.456dec0a.28c9.ffff840d@mx.google.com> Dear List, I happened to have bought my furniture from the Goodwill Industries Store near here in Denver, but it's amazing how we are still paying disabled workers $1.44 a measly hour! That was back in the fifties, and we should be paying them fair wages so they can get off of SSI. I forwadrded the list email with the master list press release to a friend whose commmission for the blind in New York wants him to bag groceries. After all the hard work he puts into making the high school diploma, my friend Matthew says he is outraged by the way Goodwill Industries treats its disabled workers, yet there's a blind CEO making all this money. I'm sorry, but my boyfriend, also blind, and I need to be able to get off of SSI because you can't live off of SSI or even minimum wage. For some people with disabilities, SSI is their only ticket to good lives. For my boyfriend, who is blind and has multiple heart defects, there's no way he can do a fast-paced job and if he worked for Goodwill, there'd be no way he could support a wife and children. The music industry is too iffy for us--we're both music lovers and he's a big-time producer for underground rappers--and making it is another story. If the two of us are to even be able to get married, we have to have fair wages, and more options for jobs under what we want. Right now, Jason provides for himself a bit by working for his mother administering a site for recipes she does. I'm pretty sure that if Jason had the option of getting a job that would get both of us off of SSI, he'd jump at it. But I'm non the SSI and welfare system in Denver, and a Goodwill job would not pay fair wages. I had a relatively good relationship with the Goodwill store in Denver, but to hear this stuff about fair wages angers me inside sommewhere. At least my boyfriend and I are not mentally challenged as so many Goodwill employees are. But whether they are blind, wheelchair bound, or whatever, they should be paid the fair minimum wage and let them go up as they rise through the rankings. Just like the teenagers who work at the McDonald's or Burger King get raises, so should workers with disabilities. IF Jason gets a job at Goodwill, I'll be darned. Unless nonprofits and lucrative businesses clean up their act, I will personally not do business with Goodwill. Noteworthy bit: myt old cane teacher's brother refused to fire his disabled workers for economic reasons as his boss had dictated. Allen Risavy, I'd like to say, is a great guy, and my old cane teacher Theresa has siblings with RP. She is a really sweet lady and not only does she do cane travel with blind individuals, she shows dogs! Her brothers, two blind and one sighted, and her blind sister, are all good people. As for the Goodwill boycott, I'm not sure if that would be as effective. There might be other ways of approaching it through the top people, but those of us who need furnishings for our apartments and are on SSI must use Goodwill, and the kindness of friends, to get what we need. From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 01:56:58 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 20:56:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Message-ID: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com> Justin, I=20agree=20with=20the=20points=20you've=20made.=20If=20Goodwill=20was=20bo= ycotted=20 universally,=20it=20would=20put=20more=20pressure=20on=20them=20to=20pay=20= their=20 disabled=20workers=20fair=20wages.=20Plus,=20if=20Goodwill=20developed=20a= =20 centralized=20wage=20policy=20and=20gave=20their=20workers=20fair=20wages,= =20other=20 corporations=20might=20follow=20their=20lead. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Justin=20Salisbury=20 References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D287E@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <3C90794D015D4EA0B88387F53D6A3483@HamidPC> Message-ID: The speech on the old book port was called Double talk. I believe the Braille Plus uses Eloquence speech. Dave At 02:32 PM 6/4/2012, you wrote: >Brandon, > >I have a question about the Braille Plus, if you could take a moment >to answer it for me? > >What are the voices for the Braile Plus? I know that question isn't >terribly clear, but I'm not sure how to ask what I'm wondering. I >have one of the old APH book Ports, which are, in my oppinion, one of >the best book readers possible, though they lack the music >capabilities you mentioned. But, its voices are completely different >from anyone else's; it has voices like Precise Pete, Perfect Paul, >etc. etc. I was wondering if the Braille Plus had similar voices; the >Book Port voices are very similar to Jaws, and I prefer them so much >more than any of the other, more "human" voices. > >Thanks immensely for reading my rambling question and attempting to >answer *smile* >Courtney From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 02:09:54 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:09:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: NABS Notes for May In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sean Whalen Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:21:34 -0400 Subject: NABS Notes for May To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Good afternoon, Please find attached, as well as pasted below, the NABS monthly bulletin for May. Thanks, Sean NABS Notes May 2012 In this edition of NABS’ monthly bulletin: 1. Convention Rundown 2. Win an iPad 3, Serotek's DocuScan Plus, or Sweet iPhone Accessories 3. You Like Facebook? 4. Congratulations to Oklahoma 5. State Updates 6. Meeting Minutes Convention Rundown National Convention is but one short month away, and, as part of the festivities in Dallas, NABS will be hosting three events of which we would like to make all of you aware. On Saturday June 30 from 9:00pm to midnight, NABS will be hosting an open house social in the Affiliate Action Suite, room 2372 (located on the tower side of the hotel(. This is a great opportunity to come out and chat with fellow students and meet new people. Plenty of NABS board members and state division leaders will be on hand as well. So if you have ideas about what you would like to see NABS doing or how we might strengthen the organization, definitely bring those along, too. Free snacks and soft drinks will be provided. Drop in and drop out whenever you wish, but be sure to drop by! NABS will, of course, also be holding our annual business meeting. The meeting will take place from 7:00pm to 10:00 on Sunday, July 1. Registration will open at 6:15, and the meeting will start promptly at 7:00. This year our meeting will be held in the Stemmons Ballroom in the Atrium lobby. This is a change from past years in Dallas when our meeting was on the tower side, so take note and don't autopilot yourself to the wrong place! We are still finalizing the agenda for the meeting, and will circulate it as soon as we have it available. Finally, NABS will be hosting our Monte Carlo fundraiser on Wednesday, July 4 from 8:00pm to 11:30. The action will be taking place in the Morocco Room in the Tower mezzanine. For $10 participants will get a bag of chips to go play Texas Hold'em, blackjack, and other card games. Bring your friends, or come make some new ones! A cash bar will be available. Come on out and support your fellow students and the work we do in NABS! We are still looking for folks to help out with staffing our exhibit hall table, as well as with marshalling and Monte Carlo Night. If you would like to volunteer to help out, please contact convention logistics coordinator Darian Smith at dsmithnfb at gmail.com. Volunteering is a great chance to meet new people, and, we dare say, it can even be fun! Win an iPad 3, Serotek's DocuScan Plus or Sweet iPhone Accessories NABS is raffling off a new iPad 3, a DocuScan Plus cloud-based OCR package, and an iPhone accessories pack, which includes a bluetooth keyboard, extended battery case and screen protector, this year in Dallas. The winner will have their choice among the items, and second and third place winners will choose between the others. Tickets cost $5, or 5 for $20. If you will not be in Dallas, but would like to purchase tickets, you can send a check, as well as your name and phone number or email address, to: Sean Whalen 320 23rd St S Apt. 826 Arlington, VA 22202 Checks must be received in the mail by Wednesday June 27 to be assured entry. Cash or money orders will be accepted as well. If you would like to assist NABS with the sale of tickets, please send an email to Sean Whalen at nabs.president at gmail.com, or give him a call at 608 332-4147, and we will get you hooked up! You Like Facebook? So, do you have mad Facebooking skills? Are you looking for a way to help strengthen chapters and affiliates of the NFB? Well, then we've got an opportunity for you! The NFB Communications Committee is undertaking a project to get all NFB affiliates and chapters up on Facebook by the end of 2012. In order to achieve this worthy goal, the committee is looking for people who would be willing to assist. Knowing that students are all about the book, the committee reached out to NABS to enlist our support. If anybody would be willing to help by building Facebook pages, maintaining them, or training others on how to do either, your help would be most appreciated. If you have interest in this project, or if you simply have questions, please contact Sean at nabs.president at gmail.com or 608 332-4147. This is a great way for NABS to offer our talents and skills to the movement, so let's get as many FB gurus on this project as possible! Congratulations to Oklahoma We are excited to announce that the Oklahoma Association of Blind Students has recently come into being! Congratulations to President Eric Holland and the entire board on being elected. Special thanks go out to Trey Lewis and NFB of Oklahoma President Jeannie Massay for working to make this newest division of NABS happen. We look forward to working closely with the OK students! State Announcements Note: All announcements are printed below as they were received from their senders. No effort to edit for content, grammar or clarity has been made on the part of NABS. Missouri: The Missouri Association of Blind Students will be selling raffle tickets during the beginning part of the week of convention - Saturday through Wednesday afternoon. The raffle is to raise funds to help kick start this new addition to NABS. The winners of the raffle (there will be two) will get the exclusive opportunity to have breakfast in the Presidential suite the morning of Thursday, July 5 with none other than Dr Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind and his wife Patricia. The two winners will be drawn Wednesday afternoon of convention at 6:00pm, and said winners will be contacted immediately. Raffle tickets can be purchased from any MABS member. They will be $2 apiece and one can purchase three for $5. These members include Bethany Bennington president of MABS Julie Miginity, Julie Salih, Chris Parsons, and Haley Korff. North Carolina: The North Carolina Association of Blind Students (NCABS) would like to begin this announcement by congratulating three of our students on their graduation in May: Alan Chase, Treasurer, Master of Education in Special Education Justin Salisbury, President, Bachelor of Arts in Mathematics Brice Smith, Bachelor of Arts in Communication: Public Relations NCABS will be sponsoring two officers to attend the 2012 National Federation of the Blind Convention in Dallas, Texas. NCABS prioritizes and supports national engagement in our members and leaders. NCABS is preparing for our second-annual student track at the 2012 NFB of NC State Convention. Last year, we brought in many presenters for our student track. This year, we will focus on the talents and skill sets of members within our division and still include some presenters. We are considering an Apple product showcase, bead work, and a discussion of transit systems. We are eager to add anything that will enhance our experience and are open to suggestions as our programming continues to evolve. We are most grateful to the board of the NFB of NC for affording us the opportunity to have a student track at the state convention and special discounted rates for students to attend the state convention. Meeting Minutes Please find the minutes for NABS’ May 2012 board meeting pasted below. As always, please do not hesitate to contact me with any questions, concerns or suggestions. The NABS Board works for you, and we want to know how we’re doing! Thanks for reading, and we’ll be back in June. Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com National Association of Blind Students Board Meeting Minutes May 20, 2012 Meeting called to order at 8:40 P.M. Members Present: Sean Whalen Karen Anderson Darian Smith Cindy Bennett Candice Chapman Meghan Whalen Committee Reports Fundraising: Another meeting will be held tomorrow. There is decent progress in finding items to be raffled at convention. They are looking to have all of the items by the beginning of June so tickets can be sold by convention. People do not have to be present to win. A possible fundraiser would include selling homemade slate holder. Templates would be brought to convention, and orders would be taken and sent out. Membership: they had a math call and the high school committee had a call about socializing and school dances. There will be a call about convention, and another may deal with the airport and possibly combining them. Darian is looking for board members to represent NABS on the convention call. Slate: Articles are being collected for the next issue which will come out a few weeks before convention. There has been a discussion on the NABS list about a want for financial articles. So we are looking for anyone knowledgeable about financial aid and college finance issues, and we are interested in them writing an article. Website: Progress is being made on the resource list and enhancing their descriptions. Meghan is thinking of starting a recipe posting on the website to post easy-to-make/able-to-make in the dorm recipes. The membership database is almost ready. Sean is working on the verification process necessary for PayPal. Southwest: Utah requested a rep, but the request was sent 2 weeks before their convention, and NABS was unable to affordably send someone. Tickets were over $450. Southeast: Florida wants a rep, but the convention is on Memorial Day weekend. Shelby is unable to go for free, and many flights are booked. NABS never got an official request. Sean will talk to Nallym before a final decision is made. Old Business Leadership seminar: Sean is working on connecting with Dr. Maurer to try to finalize the part he will play in the leadership seminar. There are a lot of financial cutbacks, so that might compromise funding for the leadership seminar. We are waiting to see if national is going to be able to cover the cost, and will hold off with further planning until we have a definite thumbs up that the seminar is still a go. National convention: Darian and Mica Baugh will take care of the tabling schedule and gathering volunteers for Monte Carlo, tabling, and marshals. Monte Carlo will be on July 4. New Business Annual business meeting: We have received a few requests for time on the agenda. A conference call will ensue to discuss the agenda. Much discussion was held on the election process. Cindy made a motion: Elections at the 2012 annual business meeting will first be conducted with a voice vote, and if the winner cannot be determined by a majority voice vote, then a group of paid sighted counters will be used to count. Meghan seconded, and the motion passed. -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NABS Notes May 2012.doc Type: application/msword Size: 44544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 02:10:15 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:10:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com> References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to = this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put = pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and = they could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people = are capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential = employers see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit = up, and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my = personal opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this.=20 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Justin, I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted=20 universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their=20 disabled workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a=20 centralized wage policy and gave their workers fair wages, other=20 corporations might follow their lead. ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Salisbury References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com> <000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27D7249C724B43EAA91C27E9992330CE@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very many people who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will do the trick. Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations telling them of the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that working without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point home, point out that this under minimum wage is a way for the United States to keep a handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way for under minimum wage to be instituted back in for everyone else. The precedent is there, so everyone needs to overturn this law so no one anywhere in the United States can ever be paid under minimum wage again. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Justin, I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Salisbury QXMgSSB3cm90ZSBpbiBteSBsb25nIGVtYWlsIEkgd3JvdGUsIHdlIG5lZWQgdGhlIG1pbmltdW0g d2FnZSB0byAKZ2V0IG91dCBvZiBTU0kgYW5kIHRoZSB3ZWxmYXJlIHN5c3RlbS4gIFdoYXQgZG9l c24ndCBzdXJwcmlzZSBtZSAKaXMgdGhhdCA3MCUgb2YgdXMgYXJlIHVuZW1wbG95ZWQuICBXZSdy ZSBzdHVjayBpbiBpZmZ5IApwcm9mZXNzaW9ucyBsaWtlIG11c2ljIGJ1dXQgd2UgaGF2ZSBhIGhp ZGRkZW4gdW5lcmdyb3VuZCAKdGVjaG5vbG9neSBnZWVrIHNlY3RvciB3ZSBjYW4gZ2V0IGludG8u ICBXaG8gbmVlZHMgR29vZHdpbGwgCkluZHVzdHJpZXMgYW55d2F5PwpCZXRoCgogLS0tLS0gT3Jp Z2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLQpGcm9tOiAiQnJhbmRvbiBLZWl0aCBCaWdncyIgPGJyYW5kb25r ZWl0aGJpZ2dzQGdtYWlsLmNvbQpUbzogIk5hdGlvbmFsIEFzc29jaWF0aW9uIG9mIEJsaW5kIFN0 dWRlbnRzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCIgCjxuYWJzLWxAbmZibmV0Lm9yZwpEYXRlIHNlbnQ6IFNhdCwg OSBKdW4gMjAxMiAxOTo0MjowMSAtMDcwMApTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW25hYnMtbF0gR29vZHdpbGwg 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aG1lbnQuYT4K From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 03:00:34 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:00:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com> References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com> <000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's = a lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, = we can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I = know, it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. Just my thoughts, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Avila Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to = this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put = pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and = they could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people = are capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential = employers see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit = up, and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my = personal opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this.=20 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Justin, I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted = universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave = their workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Salisbury Hello everyone, Anyone planning to come to Dallas using Megabus needs to know that the stop where passengers are dropped off and picked up is located at the intersection of Elm and Olive Streets. I'm not sure if this is downtown Dallas or if it's out a ways. The stop is four miles from the Hilton Anatole so you will need to arrange transportation between the Megabus stop and the Hilton Anatole. We're hoping someone in the Dallas area can help us out as there is no physical address for this stop one can use for scheduling DART rides or other transportation between it and the convention hotel. Before attempting any fixes for this situation for ourselves we'd like to find out if there are members in the Dallas area familiar with the part of town where the Megabus stop is located, the nearest physical address to the stop, and what types of transportation may be available to shuttle convention attendees between the stop and the Hilton Anatole when they arrive and leave to return home on Megabus. Any plans of action folks may have all ready come up with will be very much appreciated. There are at least 10 members coming to the convention on Megabus from San Antonio. All the best. Peter Donahue Peter Donahue “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper.” Isaiah 54:17 “While for our princes they prepare In caverns deep a burning snare, He shot from heaven a piercing ray, And the dark treachery brought to day.” Anonymous From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 03:16:17 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 21:16:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Message-ID: <4fd41184.ae71ec0a.2c6e.ffff9ed8@mx.google.com> UHJvZ3Jlc3M/ICBJJ3ZlIHN0aWxsIGdvdCBwc3ljaG9sb2dpc3RzIGFuZCBkb2NzIHRlbGxpbmcg bWUgSSdtIAp0b28gbWVzc2VkIHVwIHRvIHdvcmsgYW5kIHRvbyBtZXNzZWQgdXAgdG8gZmluZCB3 b3JrLiAgVGhleSdyZSAKYWxzbyB0ZWxsaW5nIG1lIEknbSB0b28gbWVzc2VkIHVwIGZvciBjb2xs ZWdlIGR1ZSB0byBiaXBvbGFyLiAgCllvdSB3b25kZXIgaG93IG1hbnkgYmxpbmQgcGVvcGxlIGhh dmUgYmVlbiBlbW90aW9uYWxseSBhdHRhY2tlZCAKc28gbWFueSB0aW1lcyBpbiB0aGVpciBsaXZl cyB0aGF0IHRoZXkgaW4gdHVybiBkZXZlbG9wIG1lbnRhbCAKaWxsbmVzc2VzIHRoYXQgcmVxdWly 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Cg== From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 03:32:34 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 21:32:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com> <000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com> <002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had independent access to the money she earned at her job. I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should never be said about people who are just blind without other disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be paid adult wages? It's tricky. I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale more fairly. Arielle On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a > lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we > overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, we > can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with > disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of > society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I know, > it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to this > company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put pressure > on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as > organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up > spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they > could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people are > capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers > see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, > and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire > them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my personal > opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted universally, > it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair > wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave their > workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within Goodwill > Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the fact > that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal fair > wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? > 뾏ARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies and > rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to > boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries > would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to adopt > a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach > that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in > individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local business > leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers > fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals or > > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? > 뾏ARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs- > l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 03:53:04 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 20:53:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com><000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com><002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally disabled people really are mentally disabled. *That's a mouthful!* I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed and jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into doing jobs they aren’t good at. I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the first place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is for college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when work isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I go into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hi all, I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had independent access to the money she earned at her job. I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should never be said about people who are just blind without other disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be paid adult wages? It's tricky. I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale more fairly. Arielle On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a > lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we > overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, we > can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with > disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of > society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I > know, > it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to this > company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put pressure > on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as > organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up > spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they > could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people > are > capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers > see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, > and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire > them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my personal > opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, > it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair > wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave > their > workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within Goodwill > Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the > fact > that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal fair > wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? > 뾏ARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies > and > rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to > boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries > would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to > adopt > a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach > that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in > individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local business > leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers > fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals > or > > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? > 뾏ARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs- > l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From ALewis at nfb.org Sun Jun 10 03:54:37 2012 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 20:54:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Pays Disabled Employees Less Than Minimum Wage | wusa9.com Message-ID: <0DDD28A4FA62284D8DA98DCAA627571705AA11C5E8@VA3DIAXVS651.RED001.local> All: Visit the following site for a recent news story on the Goodwill boycott. Remember we are condemning the practice of paying subminimum wages to workers with disabilities. If Goodwill adopts a policy of paying their workers with disabilities the federal minimum wage or more, it will put pressure on other subminimum wage employers to do the same. please take the time to visit the site and to post a comment in support of our efforts. FaceBook users should like the article, and our Twittter friends should tweet the link. http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabled-Employees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage Goodwill Pays Disabled Employees Less Than Minimum Wage | wusa9.com Written by Kristin Fisher ROCKVILLE, Md. (WUSA) -- One of the most well-known non-profits in the world is paying some disabled employees less than minimum wage. The National Federation of the Blind is urging a boycott of Goodwill in hopes it hopes it will convince the organization to stop this practice, a practice that is perfectly legal under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabled-Employees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage Please contact me if you have any questions. Anil Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Director of Strategic Communications "Eliminating Subminimum Wages For People With Disabilities" NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 685-5653 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 04:19:49 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 23:19:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Message-ID: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com> Brandon,=20I=20see=20what=20you=20mean=20at=20people=20shopping=20at=20Good= will.=20But=20 I=20have=20sold=20old=20clothes=20and=20stuff=20to=20Goodwill=20as=20well.= =20I=20think=20 they=20mean=20a=20boycott=20in=20the=20buying=20and=20selling=20senses. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Brandon=20Keith=20Biggs"=20 References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com> <000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com> <002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Brandon, These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways that make those assumptions come true. I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields, the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example, before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. Arielle On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally disabled > people really are mentally disabled. > *That's a mouthful!* > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed and > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into > doing jobs they aren’t good at. > > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the first > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a > class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is for > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when work > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I go > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi all, > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C > is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living > expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are > living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in > these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost > sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care > because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or > others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the > intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should > never be said about people who are just blind without other > disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases > this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if > someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be > paid adult wages? It's tricky. > I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment > programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many > workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled > workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in > noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the > competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force > companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale > more fairly. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a >> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we >> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, we >> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with >> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of >> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I >> know, >> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Humberto Avila >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to this >> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put pressure >> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up >> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they >> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people >> are >> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers >> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, >> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire >> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my personal >> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Justin, >> >> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >> universally, >> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair >> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave >> their >> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Justin Salisbury > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > 23:19:15 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within Goodwill >> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the >> fact >> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal fair >> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> ________________________________________ >> From: Justin Salisbury >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >> >> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >> >> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies >> and >> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to >> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries >> would create a centralized >> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? >> >> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to >> adopt >> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach >> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in >> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local business >> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers >> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals >> or >> >> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >> want to hear opinions on it. >> >> Justin >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs- >> l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 10 04:33:47 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:33:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com> <000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com> <002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wow! Arielle, we must share the same major! I'm majoring in Behavioral Health. What you've said, in this E-mail, is just what I'm probably going to study, in my Behavioral Health Issues class, this Fall! I agree with you! Blessings, Joshua On 6/9/12, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Brandon, > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways > that make those assumptions come true. > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields, > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example, > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which > means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally >> disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We >> also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally >> disabled >> people really are mentally disabled. >> *That's a mouthful!* >> I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed >> and >> jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm >> not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many >> mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's >> because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into >> doing jobs they aren’t good at. >> >> I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the >> first >> place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty >> easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If >> your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a >> class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is >> for >> college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when >> work >> isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I >> go >> into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not >> sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hi all, >> I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items >> like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer >> boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt >> them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very >> persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we >> make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. >> Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her >> S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with >> Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). >> Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S >> and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C >> is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities >> similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told >> me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial >> job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I >> don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived >> rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The >> program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had >> independent access to the money she earned at her job. >> I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like >> C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their >> own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how >> independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. >> would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and >> higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. >> I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be >> paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness >> by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I >> do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living >> expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are >> living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in >> these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost >> sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care >> because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or >> others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the >> intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should >> never be said about people who are just blind without other >> disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases >> this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if >> someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be >> paid adult wages? It's tricky. >> I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment >> programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many >> workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled >> workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others >> will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in >> noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the >> competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force >> companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale >> more fairly. >> Arielle >> >> On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a >>> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we >>> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, >>> we >>> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with >>> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of >>> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I >>> know, >>> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Humberto Avila >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to >>> this >>> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >>> pressure >>> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >>> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up >>> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they >>> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people >>> are >>> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers >>> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, >>> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire >>> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >>> personal >>> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Justin, >>> >>> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >>> universally, >>> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair >>> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave >>> their >>> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Justin Salisbury >> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" >> 23:19:15 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >>> Goodwill >>> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the >>> fact >>> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal >>> fair >>> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. >>> >>> Justin M. Salisbury >>> Class of 2012 >>> B.A. in Mathematics >>> East Carolina University >>> president at alumni.ecu.edu >>> >>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: Justin Salisbury >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >>> >>> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies >>> and >>> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to >>> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries >>> would create a centralized >>> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? >>> >>> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to >>> adopt >>> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach >>> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in >>> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local >>> business >>> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers >>> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals >>> or >>> >>> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >>> want to hear opinions on it. >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> Justin M. Salisbury >>> Class of 2012 >>> B.A. in Mathematics >>> East Carolina University >>> president at alumni.ecu.edu >>> >>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs- >>> l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 04:56:53 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 22:56:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Message-ID: <4fd42918.a274ec0a.4263.ffffa842@mx.google.com> There's=20a=20great=20underground=20tech=20freak=20posse=20I=20hang=20out=20= with=20on=20 Skype.=20=20Theres=20lots=20of=20people=20who=20are=20good=20at=20lots=20of= =20things,=20and=20 they=20don't=20realize=20it. Beth =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Arielle=20Silverman=20=20 wrote: =20Hello, =20It's=20a=20tricky=20situation.=20We=20can't=20really=20say=20what=20it's= =20like=20 being=20mentally =20disabled=20and=20it's=20hard=20to=20say=20what=20mentally=20disabled=20c= an=20or=20can=20 not=20do.=20We =20also=20can't=20tell=20if=20the=20blind=20who=20are=20nurtured=20to=20act= =20like=20 mentally=20disabled =20people=20really=20are=20mentally=20=20disabled. =20*That's=20a=20mouthful!* =20I=20am=20of=20the=20opinion=20that=20mentally=20disabled=20people=20are= =20way=20under=20 employed=20and =20jobs=20like=20Goodwill=20are=20completely=20the=20wrong=20job=20for=20ma= ny=20of=20 them.=20But=20I'm =20not=20a=20professional=20and=20I=20can=20only=20say=20from=20personal=20= experience=20=20 that=20many =20mentally=20disabled=20people=20can=20do=20what=20they=20want=20quite=20w= ell=20and=20 often=20it's =20because=20they=20are=20babied=20and=20misunderstood=20=20that=20they=20a= re=20 pressured=20into =20doing=20jobs=20they=20aren=E2=80=99t=20good=20at. =20I=20do=20wonder=20the=20need=20of=20blind=20adults=20to=20be=20working=20= at=20good=20will=20 in=20the=20first =20place=20though=20when=20it's=20not=20that=20hard=20learning=20programmin= g=20and=20 it's=20pretty =20easy=20to=20get=20reeducated=20for=20free=20in=20the=20United=20States=20= as=20a=20blind=20 person.=20If =20your=20career=20isn't=20working=20out,=20I=20don't=20see=20why=20one=20w= ouldn't=20just=20 take=20a =20class=20at=20their=20community=20college=20and=20change=20their=20job.=20= I=20believe=20 SSI=20is=20for =20college=20students=20and=20those=20fresh=20out=20of=20college,=20or=20fo= r=20a=20back=20 up=20when=20work =20isn't=20coming.=20I=20am=20still=20a=20student,=20but=20I=20know=20I=20h= ave=20for=20sure=20 jobs=20if=20I=20go =20into=20programming=20or=20being=20a=20TVI.=20So=20other=20than=20the=20m= oral=20=20 issues,=20I'm=20not =20sure=20why=20capable=20blind=20people=20are=20working=20at=20goodwill. =20Thanks, =20Brandon=20Keith=20Biggs =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Arielle=20Silverman =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2009,=202012=208:32=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Goodwill=20Boycott =20Hi=20all, =20I=20don't=20shop=20at=20Goodwill=20either,=20but=20I=20was=20regularly=20= donating=20 items =20like=20used=20clothes=20to=20Goodwill,=20and=20my=20parents=20do=20as=20= well.=20A=20 customer =20boycott=20might=20not=20matter=20much=20but=20a=20donor=20boycott=20woul= d=20probably=20 hurt =20them=20considerably.=20I=20have=20to=20say=20I=20found=20Justin's=20argu= ments=20very =20persuasive.=20I=20just=20hope=20that=20if=20we=20boycott=20all=20branche= s=20 nationally,=20we =20make=20it=20very=20clear=20that=20what=20we=20want=20is=20a=20change=20t= o=20national=20 policy. =20Interestingly,=20I=20used=20to=20rent=20an=20apartment=20from=20a=20woma= n=20(I'll=20 call=20her =20S)=20whose=20full-time=20job=20was=20to=20be=20a=20live-in=20caretaker=20= for=20a=20woman=20 with =20Down's=20syndrome=20and=20significant=20mental=20retardation=20(I'll=20c= all=20 her=20C). =20Since=20I=20rented=20the=20apartment=20right=20below=20theirs,=20I=20got= =20to=20know=20 both=20S =20and=20C=20quite=20well=20and=20learned=20a=20bit=20about=20C's=20situati= on.=20 Apparently=20C =20is=20employed=20by=20a=20program=20for=20people=20with=20intellectual=20= disabilities =20similar=20to=20Goodwill's=20but=20it=20wasn't=20Goodwill=20itself.=20I=20= think=20S.=20 told =20me=20that=20C.=20was=20paid=20around=20$1=20per=20hour=20for=20doing=20a= n=20extremely=20 menial =20job=20although=20I=20don't=20remember=20what=20that=20job=20was=20exactl= y.=20 However,=20I =20don't=20think=20C.=20had=20any=20living=20expenses=20at=20all=20because= =20she=20lived =20rent-free=20with=20S.=20She=20may=20have=20been=20helping=20pay=20for=20= groceries.=20 The =20program=20she=20was=20in=20was=20very=20custodial=20and=20I'm=20not=20su= re=20she=20even=20 had =20independent=20access=20to=20the=20money=20she=20earned=20at=20her=20job.= =20I=20don't=20think=20I=20can=20really=20judge=20whether=20people=20with=20= disabilities=20like =20C.'s=20are=20capable=20of=20living=20without=20custodial=20care=20or=20s= pending=20 their =20own=20money,=20any=20more=20than=20a=20deaf=20person=20should=20be=20abl= e=20to=20judge=20 how =20independent=20blind=20people=20can=20be.=20I=20do=20suspect=20that=20peo= ple=20like=20 C. =20would=20achieve=20more=20if=20they=20were=20held=20to=20higher=20expecta= tions,=20and =20higher=20expectations=20should=20come=20with=20higher=20wages=20and=20mo= re=20 freedom. =20I=20definitely=20believe=20that=20anyone=20who=20lives=20independently=20= should=20 be =20paid=20at=20least=20the=20minimum=20wage,=20and=20I=20think=20it=20is=20= clear=20that=20 blindness =20by=20itself=20doesn't=20prevent=20anyone=20from=20living=20independently= .=20 However,=20I =20do=20wonder=20if=20minimum=20wage=20is=20necessary=20for=20those=20who=20= don't=20have=20 living =20expenses=20or=20who=20don't=20manage=20their=20own=20finances=20because= =20they=20are =20living=20in=20custodial=20care=20situations.=20I'm=20sure=20there=20are= =20people=20 in =20these=20custodial=20arrangements=20who=20shouldn't=20be=20there,=20but=20= that=20 almost =20sounds=20like=20a=20separate=20issue.=20These=20people=20aren't=20in=20c= ustodial=20 care =20because=20they=20are=20earning=20low=20wages,=20but=20because=20their=20= parents=20or =20others=20acting=20on=20their=20behalf=20have=20decided=20they=20don't=20= have=20the =20intellect=20or=20the=20maturity=20to=20make=20adult=20decisions.=20Again= ,=20this=20 should =20never=20be=20said=20about=20people=20who=20are=20just=20blind=20without= =20other =20disabilities.=20As=20far=20as=20intellectual=20disabilities=20go,=20in=20= some=20 cases =20this=20judgment=20might=20be=20right;=20in=20other=20cases=20it=20might= =20be=20wrong.=20 But=20if =20someone=20is=20clearly=20not=20able=20to=20manage=20adult=20expenses,=20= should=20 they=20be =20paid=20adult=20wages?=20It's=20tricky. =20I=20can=20also=20understand=20the=20argument=20that=20if=20noncompetitiv= e=20 employment =20programs=20for=20the=20disabled=20raise=20wages,=20they=20can't=20hire=20= as=20many =20workers.=20This=20ultimately=20means=20that=20instead=20of=20a=20bunch=20= of=20 disabled =20workers=20earning=20crappy=20wages,=20some=20will=20earn=20a=20decent=20= wage=20and=20 others =20will=20earn=20nothing.=20Of=20course,=20we=20hope=20that=20the=20reducti= on=20in =20noncompetitive=20jobs=20might=20bring=20more=20disabled=20workers=20into= =20the =20competitive=20job=20market.=20A=20mandatory=20minimum=20wage=20would=20a= lso=20 force =20companies=20with=20high=20salaries=20at=20the=20top=20to=20redistribute= =20their=20 payscale =20more=20fairly. =20Arielle =20On=206/9/12,=20Chris=20Nusbaum=20=20wrote: =20I=20agree,=20Humberto,=20and=20I=20hope=20what=20you=20say=20comes=20tru= e.=20However,=20 there's=20a =20lot=20of=20change=20we=20need=20to=20make=20in=20order=20for=20this=20to= =20happen.=20Even=20 if=20we =20overturn=20the=20subminimum=20wage=20provision,=20and=20I=20hope=20and=20= pray=20that=20 we=20do,=20we =20can't=20possibly=20tell=20employers=20that=20they=20have=20to=20hire=20p= eople=20with =20disabilities.=20So,=20we=20need=20to=20change=20the=20beliefs=20and=20th= e=20 attidudes=20of =20society,=20including=20employers,=20about=20the=20competence=20of=20blin= d=20 people.=20I =20know, =20it's=20a=20big=20job,=20but=20I=20think=20we've=20made=20a=20lot=20of=20= progress=20so=20far. =20Just=20my=20thoughts, =20Chris =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org=20 [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20Behalf=20Of=20Humberto=20Avila =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2009,=202012=2010:10=20PM =20To:=20'National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list' =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Goodwill=20Boycott =20Hello,=20I=20agree=20with=20this=20as=20well.=20I=20hope=20that=20by=20d= oing=20the=20 boycott=20to=20this =20company,=20in=20the=20national=20/=20universal=20spectrum,=20we=20are=20= able=20to=20 put=20pressure =20on=20employers,=20and=20on=20other=20companies=20and=20corporations,=20a= s=20well=20 as =20organizations=20who=20pay=20subminimum=20wages.=20We=20could=20eventuall= y=20end=20 up =20spreading=20the=20word=20of=20stopping=20companies=20to=20pay=20subminim= um=20wages=20 and=20they =20could=20even=20see=20that=20people=20with=20disabilities=20and=20includi= ng=20blind=20 people =20are =20capable=20of=20being=20paid=20like=20the=20sighted=20population.=20If=20= potential=20 employers =20see=20this=20change=20happening,=20those=20employers=20will=20have=20a=20= light=20 bulb=20lit=20up, =20and=20will=20be=20able=20to=20see=20that=20blind=20people=20are=20compet= ent,=20then=20 will=20hire =20them.=20Then=20we=20can=20make=20more=20change.=20I=20see=20this=20happe= ning,=20from=20 my=20personal =20opinion.=20Let's=20hope=20that=20the=20NFB=20does=20this. =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org=20 [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20Behalf=20Of=20Sophie=20Trist =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2009,=202012=206:57=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Goodwill=20Boycott =20Justin, =20I=20agree=20with=20the=20points=20you've=20made.=20If=20Goodwill=20was=20= boycotted =20universally, =20it=20would=20put=20more=20pressure=20on=20them=20to=20pay=20their=20disa= bled=20workers=20 fair =20wages.=20Plus,=20if=20Goodwill=20developed=20a=20centralized=20wage=20po= licy=20and=20 gave =20their =20workers=20fair=20wages,=20other=20corporations=20might=20follow=20their= =20lead. =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Justin=20Salisbury=20 > Hello, everyone! > > It's time once again for the Community Service Group's monthly membership > call! Come join us and learn about what's crackin' with the CS group at > National Convention. Get the 411 on our seminar, organizing meeting, and > first-ever community service project! > > When: Sunday, June 17 at 4 ET > Where: (218) 339-3600 passcode 808277 Hope to see you there! > > Julie Chair, Outreach Committee, Community Service Group > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 06:16:52 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:16:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] the re-post Message-ID: Yes, I know I just re-posted something to the nabs list... My bad, but at least you can say that you certainly got it! :) -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 06:57:32 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com><000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com><002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <91D6530DF77144D2BCBAF54083416E3D@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm going to say... It's the educational system that many of these problems come down to. We have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to create a new style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about disabled students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask for accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted person, I would not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United States when going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get leniency on all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get free schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so many scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends with your teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you are by nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to read your books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, you're able to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for taking advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled and that's what you're expected to do! Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when you get 100% on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people think it's amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, (Stereotypically) blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time to do school work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and instructions because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem with your online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the web browser, state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors class at a community college and you have good grades and you've written one of those inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get the super arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", you're able to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies like Global explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job programs like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community college or state college you're given a guide through the school because you need a mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person... I should probably stop, but you get the idea... It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years of my life and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing parents and didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view of school, but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was just that either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped with the skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's multiple theory of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, but thank goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, they just need to know how they learn and learn that way! I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so I'll get off education. My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the above things. I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings and my mom became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind person needs to know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years of your life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a tighter mold of what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of anyone. Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they don't need special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme cases of autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is put into that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! It's like if Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people stuck him into special ed just because he can't talk! Where would cosmology be? Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their own way into sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled that are fighting for these rights. I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird it's not them that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're weird. It's like you thinking the person in front of you is going through time the same way you are! Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason and go for emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and that's why we have to assimilate into the sighted world. Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs. Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything other than blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this world likes to think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with the crowd. Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered weird, those who learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise above it are considered great. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hi Brandon, These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways that make those assumptions come true. I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields, the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example, before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. Arielle On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally > disabled > people really are mentally disabled. > *That's a mouthful!* > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed > and > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into > doing jobs they aren’t good at. > > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the > first > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a > class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is > for > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when > work > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I > go > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi all, > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C > is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living > expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are > living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in > these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost > sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care > because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or > others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the > intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should > never be said about people who are just blind without other > disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases > this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if > someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be > paid adult wages? It's tricky. > I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment > programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many > workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled > workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in > noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the > competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force > companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale > more fairly. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a >> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we >> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, >> we >> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with >> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of >> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I >> know, >> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Humberto Avila >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to >> this >> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >> pressure >> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up >> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they >> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people >> are >> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers >> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, >> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire >> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >> personal >> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Justin, >> >> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >> universally, >> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair >> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave >> their >> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Justin Salisbury > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > 23:19:15 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >> Goodwill >> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the >> fact >> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal >> fair >> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> ________________________________________ >> From: Justin Salisbury >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >> >> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >> >> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies >> and >> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to >> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries >> would create a centralized >> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? >> >> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to >> adopt >> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach >> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in >> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local >> business >> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers >> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals >> or >> >> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >> want to hear opinions on it. >> >> Justin >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs- >> l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 10 07:11:25 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:11:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <91D6530DF77144D2BCBAF54083416E3D@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com> <000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com> <002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> <91D6530DF77144D2BCBAF54083416E3D@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Wow! You're right! I didn't have a real TVI, for 6/12th grade. My TVI, (So called,) was a special Ed teacher, who ended up getting trained as a TVI. If she wasn't there to help me, guess where I was forced to go! Yup! Special Ed classes! Of course, I enjoyed it, because the instructor knew I didn't need to be there, so she allowed me to help her with the kids, that actually needed the help. Blessings, Joshua On 6/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm going to > say... > It's the educational system that many of these problems come down to. We > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to create a new > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about disabled > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask for > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted person, I would > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United States when > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get leniency on > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get free > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so many > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends with your > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you are by > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to read your > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, you're able > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for taking > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled and that's > what you're expected to do! > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when you get 100% > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people think it's > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, (Stereotypically) > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time to do school > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and instructions > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem with your > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the web browser, > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors class at a > community college and you have good grades and you've written one of those > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get the super > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", you're able > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies like Global > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job programs > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community college or > state college you're given a guide through the school because you need a > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person... > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years of my life > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing parents and > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view of school, > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was just that > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped with the > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's multiple theory > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, but thank > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, they just > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so I'll get off > education. > My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the above things. > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings and my mom > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind person needs to > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years of your > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a tighter mold of > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of anyone. > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they don't need > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme cases of > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is put into > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! It's like if > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people stuck him > into special ed just because he can't talk! > Where would cosmology be? > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their own way into > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled that are > fighting for these rights. > > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird it's not them > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're weird. It's > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through time the same > way you are! > > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason and go for > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and that's why > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs. > > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything other than > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this world likes to > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with the crowd. > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered weird, those who > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise above it are > considered great. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi Brandon, > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways > that make those assumptions come true. > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields, > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example, > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which > means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally >> disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We >> also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally >> disabled >> people really are mentally disabled. >> *That's a mouthful!* >> I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed >> and >> jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm >> not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many >> mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's >> because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into >> doing jobs they aren’t good at. >> >> I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the >> first >> place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty >> easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If >> your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a >> class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is >> for >> college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when >> work >> isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I >> go >> into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not >> sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hi all, >> I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items >> like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer >> boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt >> them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very >> persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we >> make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. >> Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her >> S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with >> Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). >> Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S >> and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C >> is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities >> similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told >> me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial >> job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I >> don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived >> rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The >> program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had >> independent access to the money she earned at her job. >> I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like >> C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their >> own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how >> independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. >> would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and >> higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. >> I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be >> paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness >> by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I >> do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living >> expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are >> living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in >> these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost >> sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care >> because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or >> others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the >> intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should >> never be said about people who are just blind without other >> disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases >> this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if >> someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be >> paid adult wages? It's tricky. >> I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment >> programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many >> workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled >> workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others >> will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in >> noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the >> competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force >> companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale >> more fairly. >> Arielle >> >> On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a >>> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we >>> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, >>> we >>> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with >>> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of >>> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I >>> know, >>> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Humberto Avila >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to >>> this >>> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >>> pressure >>> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >>> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up >>> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they >>> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people >>> are >>> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers >>> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, >>> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire >>> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >>> personal >>> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Justin, >>> >>> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >>> universally, >>> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair >>> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave >>> their >>> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Justin Salisbury >> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" >> 23:19:15 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >>> Goodwill >>> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the >>> fact >>> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal >>> fair >>> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. >>> >>> Justin M. Salisbury >>> Class of 2012 >>> B.A. in Mathematics >>> East Carolina University >>> president at alumni.ecu.edu >>> >>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: Justin Salisbury >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >>> >>> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies >>> and >>> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to >>> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries >>> would create a centralized >>> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? >>> >>> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to >>> adopt >>> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach >>> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in >>> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local >>> business >>> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers >>> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals >>> or >>> >>> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >>> want to hear opinions on it. >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> Justin M. Salisbury >>> Class of 2012 >>> B.A. in Mathematics >>> East Carolina University >>> president at alumni.ecu.edu >>> >>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs- >>> l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 08:01:52 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:01:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Message-ID: <4fd45474.65b4ec0a.360b.05c2@mx.google.com> Great=20points,=20Brandon.=20=20As=20someone=20who=20is=20both=20blind=20an= d=20mentally=20 ill,=20I=20understand=20how=20it=20feels=20to=20be=20considered=20weird.=20= =20I've=20been=20 called=20a=20creep,=20told=20by=20some=20girl=20to=20my=20boyfriend's=20fac= e=20that=20he=20 could=20do=20better=20due=20to=20my=20disorder,=20and=20then=20threatened=20= with=20all=20 kinds=20of=20emotional=20attack=20and=20abuse.=20=20Due=20to=20blindness,=20= I=20was=20 told=20by=20the=20docs=20I'd=20be=20a=20vegetable.=20=20Huh?=20=20My=20dad= =20says=20I'm=20a=20 genius.=20=20I=20don't=20know,=20but=20my=20last=20IQ=20check=20said=20I=20= was=20a=20133,=20 superior=20without=20all=20the=20visual=20battery=20of=20tests.=20=20But=20= then=20 again,=20IQ=20isn't=20everything.=20=20I=20live=20in=20Denver,=20alone,=20w= ith=20no=20 roommate=20to=20pander=20to=20my=20every=20need.=20=20I=20probably=20should= =20say=20that=20 with=20the=20right=20support=20and=20good=20friends=20around=20me,=20I=20co= uld=20 thrive.=20=20I=20could=20become=20a=20"normal"=20woman,=20work=20a=20"norma= l"=20job,=20 and=20get=20"normal"=20wages.=20=20I=20could=20take=20care=20of=20children,= =20my=20own=20 children,=20and=20raise=20them=20to=20be=20good=20people,=20productive=20ci= tizens=20 of=20the=20United=20States=20of=20America,=20and=20I'd=20look=20forward=20t= o=20good=20 days=20and=20bad=20days=20along=20the=20way.=20=20My=20old=20cane=20teacher= =20is=20a=20 fountain=20of=20wisdom=20when=20it=20comes=20to=20life's=20miseries,=20and= =20the=20 rapids=20of=20life=20don't=20get=20any=20higher=20than=20what=20they=20are.= =20=20I=20could=20 get=20deeper=20and=20say=20that=20God=20doesn't=20put=20us=20in=20a=20river= =20with=20rapids=20 that=20could=20not=20be=20handled=20by=20the=20rider.=20=20One=20of=20the=20= biggest=20 "whitewater=20rapids"=20so=20to=20speak=20is=20the=20employment=20and=20wag= es=20 thing.=20=20Brandon=20and=20Arielle,=20you=20guys=20make=20a=20good=20point= =20in=20that=20 blind=20people=20are=20trained=20to=20act=20like=20mentally=20disabled=20pe= ople.=20=20 My=20boyfriend=20doesn't=20know=20money.=20=20I=20wonder=20if=20I=20can=20p= ossibly=20 teach=20him=20the=20basics=20of=20money=20management=20and=20budgeting.=20= =20I=20 struggle=20with=20it=20myself=20because=20SSI=20is=20too=20little=20to=20li= ve=20off=20of,=20 and=20I=20was=20given=20a=20plane=20ticket,=20but=20not=20the=20money=20for= =20baggage=20 fees=20and=20cab=20fare=20to=20get=20to=20and=20from=20the=20airport.=20=20= So=20I'm=20stuck=20 paying=20for=20that.=20=20My=20boyfriend=20also=20doesn't=20know=20how=20to= =20keep=20 track=20of=20his=20own=20wages,=20and=20if=20he=20becomes=20a=20big-time=20= producer=20for=20 all=20sorts=20of=20rappers=20who=20would=20run=20to=20him,=20I=20don't=20kn= ow=20how=20he's=20 going=20to=20run=20the=20household=20and=20help=20me=20pay=20my=20bills=20t= oo.=20=20What=20if=20 I'm=20incapacitated=20for=20real=20this=20time?=20=20I=20mean,=20like,=20Te= rry=20 Shiavo?=20=20How's=20Jason,=20who=20I=20may=20designate=20as=20a=20healthca= re=20 surrogate,=20going=20to=20make=20that=20decision?=20=20My=20hope=20is=20tha= t=20he=20won't=20 have=20to=20do=20that,=20but=20if=20that=20happens,=20I=20need=20someone=20= that=20I=20feel=20 can=20be=20trusted=20to=20make=20the=20decisions=20about=20my=20bills=20and= =20stuff.=20=20I=20 was=20asked=20by=20my=20boyfriend's=20mom=20of=20all=20people=20to=20help=20= her=20with=20 him=20a=20bit.=20=20Just=20to=20think=20of=20Jason=20in=20the=20situation=20= he's=20in=20just=20 makes=20me=20so=20sick.=20=20I=20want=20him=20to=20manage=20his=20own=20wag= es,=20cook=20me=20a=20 meal=20if=20I=20get=20sick,=20and=20fry=20me=20some=20chicken=20or=20grill= =20a=20burger=20on=20 Memorial=20Day.=20=20He=20has=20the=20potential=20to=20do=20those=20things,= =20and=20the=20 weird=20part=20is=20that=20his=20parents=20are=20open=20to=20us=20having=20= a=20 relationship.=20=20Most=20disabled=20people's=20parents,=20including=20but= =20not=20 limited=20to=20my=20own,=20are=20not=20as=20open=20about=20relations=20with= =20poorer=20 people.=20=20Both=20Jason=20and=20I=20are=20poor,=20but=20I=20think=20we=20= can=20live=20 together=20successfully=20with=20all=20the=20right=20supports,=20and=20if=20= we=20 can't=20find=20jobs,=20so=20what?=20=20We=20need=20family=20support=20to=20= get=20by.=20=20But=20 I=20really=20do=20dream=20of=20having=20my=20own=20private=20house,=20being= =20able=20to=20 manage=20my=20bills,=20being=20able=20to=20buy=20foods=20that=20are=20nutri= tious=20to=20 my=20children=20and=20so=20on,=20and=20feeding=20the=20baby=20and=20having= =20Jason=20 there=20to=20have=20breakfast=20with=20in=20the=20mornings,=20and=20not=20h= is=20old=20 mother.=20=20Not=20to=20say=20she's=20bad,=20but=20it's=20a=20dream=20I=20w= ant=20to=20have.=20=20 My=20mother=20should=20not=20have=20to=20manage=20my=20money.=20=20Yes,=20I= 'm=20not=20so=20 good=20at=20money=20management,=20but=20I've=20learned=20a=20few=20lessons= =20like=20how=20 to=20go=20back=20and=20look=20at=20your=20payment=20history=20every=20time= =20if=20you=20get=20 suspicious=20about=20a=20charge.=20=20Like=20if=20the=20bills=20are=20on=20= autopay,=20you=20 have=20to=20look=20back=20and=20see=20if=20the=20weird=20corporate=20robber= s,=20if=20I=20 may=20use=20such=20a=20cold=20term,=20are=20stealing=20your=20money.=20=20I= =20felt=20 Comcast=20was=20robbing=20me=20of=20my=20precious=20money,=20and=20especial= ly=20this=20 month because=20of=20a=20trip,=20and=20next=20month=20because=20of=20a=20move=20I= =20have=20to=20do,=20 I=20can't=20afford=20a=20$70=20internet=20bill.=20=20That's=20just=20too=20= much=20unless=20 you're=20really=20living=20in=20low=20income=20housing.=20=20I=20know=20a=20= lot=20about=20 disabled=20or=20low=20income=20housing.=20=20Boy,=20my=20boyfriend=20has=20= a=20lot=20to=20 learn,=20and=20he'll=20learn=20lots=20while=20I'm=20with=20him.=20=20Lots=20= of=20times,=20 blind=20people=20are=20sheltered=20by=20their=20parents,=20and=20of=20cours= e,=20the=20 parents=20I=20had=20were=20good=20parents,=20no=20doubt,=20but=20they=20had= =20their=20 flaws.=20=20Jason=20is=20lucky=20in=20some=20ways,=20but=20his=20parents=20= said=20the=20 same=20stuff=20that=20all=20sighted=20people=20say,=20"He=20has=20it=20made= .=20=20We=20wait=20 on=20him=20hand=20and=20foot=20..."=20=20And=20so=20on.=20=20This=20creates= =20a=20problem.=20=20 Blind=20people=20need=20to=20not=20be=20waited=20on=20hand=20and=20foot.=20= =20We=20can't=20 necessarily=20be=20pandered=20to=20our=20every=20need=20like=20little=20Ver= uca=20Salt=20 in=20charlie=20and=20the=20Chocolate=20Factory=20if=20I=20may=20reference=20= a=20spoiled=20 literary=20figure.=20=20We=20can't=20be=20pandered=20or=20revered=20as=20He= len=20Keller=20 was=20by=20her=20family=20in=20her=20early=20years.=20=20Unlike=20Jason,=20= Helen=20was=20 deaf=20and=20in=20me=20and=20Jason's=20time,=20jobs=20are=20ample,=20and=20= skills=20are=20 ample=20thanks=20to=20technology.=20=20With=20Helen=20Keller's=20time,=20th= ere=20were=20 no=20jobs=20open,=20and=20marriage=20and=20motherhood=20were=20closed=20to= =20Helen.=20=20 I=20as=20a=20blind=20woman=20am=20thankful=20that=20marriage=20is=20open=20= to=20me--hence=20 the=20boyfriend=20I=20currently=20have--and=20relationships=20period.=20=20= Jobs=20 and=20technology=20have=20risen=20while=20I=20was=20growing=20up.=20=20It=20= only=20seems=20 like=20yesterday=20that=20I=20would=20not=20be=20sending=20this=20superbly= =20long=20 email.=20=20Thanks=20to=20emails=20and=20Facebook=20and=20Twitter,=20I=20fe= el=20much=20 more=20connected=20to=20my=20friends=20and=20family,=20and=20especially=20t= o=20my=20 dear=20cousin=20Sarah,=20but=20yet=20she=20never=20calls=20me.=20=20Ha=20ha= .=20=20But=20 thanks=20to=20cell=20phones,=20I=20can=20go=20anywhere=20and=20give=20every= one=20a=20text=20 message.=20=20Imagine=20poor=20blind=20Beth=20texting!=20=20It=20only=20see= ms=20like=20 yesterday=20that=20my=20parents=20didn't=20think=20I=20needed=20an=20access= ible=20 phone,=20but=20when=20I=20fought=20to=20get=20an=20accessible=20phone,=20an= d=20my=20 ex-boyfriend=20taught=20me=20how=20to=20write=20letters=20on=20the=20phone,= =20which=20 is=20a=20skill=20I=20still=20fail=20at=20sometimes=20(lol),=20I=20have=20te= xted=20my=20 friends=20and=20I=20can=20receive=20texts=20from=20people.=20=20I=20would=20= hate=20to=20 change=20my=20address,=20but=20I=20do=20that.=20=20I=20will=20be=20in=20Den= ver=20for=20a=20good=20 while=20so=20I=20can=20do=20my=20college=20and=20keep=20the=20ducks=20in=20= a=20row=20as=20I=20 would=20hear=20my=20mother=20say.=20=20When=20I=20get=20my=20ducks=20in=20a= =20row,=20I=20plan=20 to=20move=20on=20to=20bigger=20and=20better=20things,=20and=20I=20want=20to= =20get=20a=20job=20 helping=20human=20trafficking=20victims.=20=20Denver=20has=20a=20strong=20v= ictim=20 advocate=20program,=20but=20that's=20only=20the=20Muslim=20Family=20Service= s=20that=20 may=20have=20that.=20=20I'd=20heard=20that=20Atlanta=20has=20a=20big=20prob= lem=20with=20 human=20trafficking.=20=20Well,=20so=20do=20some=20areas=20of=20Florida,=20= but=20if=20 there's=20slavery=20and=20trafficking,=20I'll=20be=20there=20to=20stop=20it= .=20=20I'd=20 like=20to=20give=20former=20slaves=20and=20prostitutes=20a=20chance=20at=20= life,=20but=20 where=20will=20I=20go=20without=20a=20college=20degree=20in=20women's=20stu= dies=20and=20a=20 good=20background=20in=20such=20matters?=20=20I=20was=20never=20trafficked,= =20but=20I=20 have=20read=20countless=20literature,=20and=20have=20seen=20it=20firsthand= =20or=20 through=20others,=20what=20sorts=20of=20cruelty=20exist=20in=20the=20world.= To=20keep=20the=20message=20on=20topic,=20I=20want=20to=20say=20that=20such= =20a=20job=20 helping=20human=20trafficking=20victims=20shouldn't=20require=20a=20social= =20work=20 degree,=20which=20the=20doc=20says=20I'm=20too=20messed=20up=20to=20do.=20= =20I=20want=20to=20 advise=20all=20of=20us=20to=20please=20take=20suspicious=20statements=20lik= e,=20 "She's=20pretending=20to=20be=20a=20certain=20ethnic=20group"=20or=20"She's= =20not=20fit=20 to=20do=20something=20because=20of=20mental=20deficiencies."=20=20What=20so= rt=20of=20 nonsensical=20statements=20these=20are!=20=20DVR=20in=20Colorado=20doesn't= =20seem=20 to=20get=20it.=20=20They=20tell=20me=20I'm=20too=20messed=20up=20for=20coll= ege=20but=20they=20 don't=20seem=20to=20understand=20that=20the=20importance=20of=20college=20i= s=20more=20 to=20me=20than=20anybody.=20=20My=20brothers=20are=20taking=20college=20cla= sses,=20and=20 they=20will=20graduate,=20marry,=20and=20have=20families=20as=20expected.=20= =20But=20 what=20will=20I=20do?=20=20My=20parents=20will=20dictate=20who=20I=20will=20= marry=20due=20to=20 gender=20and=20blindness,=20they=20will=20tell=20me=20what=20talents=20I=20= have=20 because=20I'm=20so=20"malleable",=20as=20some=20people=20think=20blind=20pe= ople=20 are,=20and=20then=20my=20teachers,=20doctors,=20psychologists,=20social=20 workers,=20and=20case=20managers=20will=20either=20take=20my=20babies=20or= =20let=20me=20 keep=20them=20with=20sighted=20supervision,=20and=20so=20on.=20=20But=20goi= ng=20through=20 school=20is=20not=20easy.=20=20Brandon,=20you=20said=20school=20is=20great,= =20but=20you=20 don't=20realize=20that=20as=20a=20blind=20person=20in=20a=20million=20livin= g=20in=20a=20 small=20town,=20nobody=20cared=20to=20dance=20with=20me=20at=20homecoming=20= or=20prom.=20=20 That's=20the=20price=20I=20paid=20for=20being=20blind.=20=20Nobody=20cared= =20to=20offer=20 me=20flowers=20on=20a=20date.=20=20I=20didn't=20have=20the=20normal=20teena= ger=20things=20 that=20every=20teenage=20girl=20dreams=20about.=20=20If=20I=20have=20a=20da= ughter,=20I=20 want=20to=20dress=20her=20up=20for=20prom=20and=20her=20wedding=20day=20wit= h=20such=20pride=20 a=20mother=20would=20share=20with=20her=20spouse=20and=20daughter=20alike.= =20=20My=20 mother=20never=20got=20that=20opportunity=20with=20me.=20=20She=20would=20h= elp=20me=20 into=20my=20chorus=20dresses,=20but=20those=20were=20mere=20obligations=20t= o=20the=20 school.=20=20My=20mom=20believed=20that=20prom=20was=20for=20dates=20only,= =20and=20summer=20 jobs?=20=20Out=20of=20the=20question.=20=20I=20can't=20get=20a=20good=20exp= erience=20if=20I=20 am=20not=20allowed=20to=20work.=20=20Titusville=20is=20a=20small=20town=20i= n=20Florida,=20 and=20I=20and=20another=20man=20were=20the=20only=20blind=20people=20in=20i= t.=20=20I=20being=20 the=20only=20and=20youngest=20blind=20woman=20in=20the=20town=20couldn't=20= be=20offered=20 a=20job.=20=20The=20only=20jobs=20offered=20were=20at=20the=20hospital,=20w= here=20medical=20 experience=20was=20required,=20and=20the=20Space=20Center,=20where=20engine= ering=20 degrees=20were=20preferred.=20=20My=20dad=20can=20attest=20to=20the=20peopl= e=20he's=20 interviewed=20for=20jobs,=20and=20unfortunately,=20there's=20not=20enough=20= blind=20 computer=20engineers,=20except=20those=20in=20the=20underground=20geek=20in= dustry=20 as=20I=20like=20to=20call=20it,=20to=20go=20around.=20=20We=20also=20need=20= to=20learn=20to=20 communicate=20with=20others=20who=20are=20sighted,=20speak=20their=20langua= ge=20so=20 to=20speak. Ok,=20my=20rant=20is=20over. Beth =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Brandon=20Keith=20Biggs"=20=20 wrote: =20Hello, =20It's=20a=20tricky=20situation.=20We=20can't=20really=20say=20what=20it's= =20like=20 being=20mentally =20disabled=20and=20it's=20hard=20to=20say=20what=20mentally=20disabled=20c= an=20or=20can=20 not=20do.=20We =20also=20can't=20tell=20if=20the=20blind=20who=20are=20nurtured=20to=20act= =20like=20 mentally =20disabled =20people=20really=20are=20mentally=20=20disabled. =20*That's=20a=20mouthful!* =20I=20am=20of=20the=20opinion=20that=20mentally=20disabled=20people=20are= =20way=20under=20 employed =20and =20jobs=20like=20Goodwill=20are=20completely=20the=20wrong=20job=20for=20ma= ny=20of=20 them.=20But=20I'm =20not=20a=20professional=20and=20I=20can=20only=20say=20from=20personal=20= experience=20=20 that=20many =20mentally=20disabled=20people=20can=20do=20what=20they=20want=20quite=20w= ell=20and=20 often=20it's =20because=20they=20are=20babied=20and=20misunderstood=20=20that=20they=20a= re=20 pressured=20into =20doing=20jobs=20they=20aren=E2=80=99t=20good=20at. =20I=20do=20wonder=20the=20need=20of=20blind=20adults=20to=20be=20working=20= at=20good=20will=20 in=20the =20first =20place=20though=20when=20it's=20not=20that=20hard=20learning=20programmin= g=20and=20 it's=20pretty =20easy=20to=20get=20reeducated=20for=20free=20in=20the=20United=20States=20= as=20a=20blind=20 person.=20If =20your=20career=20isn't=20working=20out,=20I=20don't=20see=20why=20one=20w= ouldn't=20just=20 take=20a =20class=20at=20their=20community=20college=20and=20change=20their=20job.=20= I=20believe=20 SSI=20is =20for =20college=20students=20and=20those=20fresh=20out=20of=20college,=20or=20fo= r=20a=20back=20 up=20when =20work =20isn't=20coming.=20I=20am=20still=20a=20student,=20but=20I=20know=20I=20h= ave=20for=20sure=20 jobs=20if=20I =20go =20into=20programming=20or=20being=20a=20TVI.=20So=20other=20than=20the=20m= oral=20=20 issues,=20I'm=20not =20sure=20why=20capable=20blind=20people=20are=20working=20at=20goodwill. =20Thanks, =20Brandon=20Keith=20Biggs =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Arielle=20Silverman =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2009,=202012=208:32=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Goodwill=20Boycott =20Hi=20all, =20I=20don't=20shop=20at=20Goodwill=20either,=20but=20I=20was=20regularly=20= donating=20 items =20like=20used=20clothes=20to=20Goodwill,=20and=20my=20parents=20do=20as=20= well.=20A=20 customer =20boycott=20might=20not=20matter=20much=20but=20a=20donor=20boycott=20woul= d=20probably=20 hurt =20them=20considerably.=20I=20have=20to=20say=20I=20found=20Justin's=20argu= ments=20very =20persuasive.=20I=20just=20hope=20that=20if=20we=20boycott=20all=20branche= s=20 nationally,=20we =20make=20it=20very=20clear=20that=20what=20we=20want=20is=20a=20change=20t= o=20national=20 policy. =20Interestingly,=20I=20used=20to=20rent=20an=20apartment=20from=20a=20woma= n=20(I'll=20 call=20her =20S)=20whose=20full-time=20job=20was=20to=20be=20a=20live-in=20caretaker=20= for=20a=20woman=20 with =20Down's=20syndrome=20and=20significant=20mental=20retardation=20(I'll=20c= all=20 her=20C). =20Since=20I=20rented=20the=20apartment=20right=20below=20theirs,=20I=20got= =20to=20know=20 both=20S =20and=20C=20quite=20well=20and=20learned=20a=20bit=20about=20C's=20situati= on.=20 Apparently=20C =20is=20employed=20by=20a=20program=20for=20people=20with=20intellectual=20= disabilities =20similar=20to=20Goodwill's=20but=20it=20wasn't=20Goodwill=20itself.=20I=20= think=20S.=20 told =20me=20that=20C.=20was=20paid=20around=20$1=20per=20hour=20for=20doing=20a= n=20extremely=20 menial =20job=20although=20I=20don't=20remember=20what=20that=20job=20was=20exactl= y.=20 However,=20I =20don't=20think=20C.=20had=20any=20living=20expenses=20at=20all=20because= =20she=20lived =20rent-free=20with=20S.=20She=20may=20have=20been=20helping=20pay=20for=20= groceries.=20 The =20program=20she=20was=20in=20was=20very=20custodial=20and=20I'm=20not=20su= re=20she=20even=20 had =20independent=20access=20to=20the=20money=20she=20earned=20at=20her=20job.= =20I=20don't=20think=20I=20can=20really=20judge=20whether=20people=20with=20= disabilities=20like =20C.'s=20are=20capable=20of=20living=20without=20custodial=20care=20or=20s= pending=20 their =20own=20money,=20any=20more=20than=20a=20deaf=20person=20should=20be=20abl= e=20to=20judge=20 how =20independent=20blind=20people=20can=20be.=20I=20do=20suspect=20that=20peo= ple=20like=20 C. =20would=20achieve=20more=20if=20they=20were=20held=20to=20higher=20expecta= tions,=20and =20higher=20expectations=20should=20come=20with=20higher=20wages=20and=20mo= re=20 freedom. =20I=20definitely=20believe=20that=20anyone=20who=20lives=20independently=20= should=20 be =20paid=20at=20least=20the=20minimum=20wage,=20and=20I=20think=20it=20is=20= clear=20that=20 blindness =20by=20itself=20doesn't=20prevent=20anyone=20from=20living=20independently= .=20 However,=20I =20do=20wonder=20if=20minimum=20wage=20is=20necessary=20for=20those=20who=20= don't=20have=20 living =20expenses=20or=20who=20don't=20manage=20their=20own=20finances=20because= =20they=20are =20living=20in=20custodial=20care=20situations.=20I'm=20sure=20there=20are= =20people=20 in =20these=20custodial=20arrangements=20who=20shouldn't=20be=20there,=20but=20= that=20 almost =20sounds=20like=20a=20separate=20issue.=20These=20people=20aren't=20in=20c= ustodial=20 care =20because=20they=20are=20earning=20low=20wages,=20but=20because=20their=20= parents=20or =20others=20acting=20on=20their=20behalf=20have=20decided=20they=20don't=20= have=20the =20intellect=20or=20the=20maturity=20to=20make=20adult=20decisions.=20Again= ,=20this=20 should =20never=20be=20said=20about=20people=20who=20are=20just=20blind=20without= =20other =20disabilities.=20As=20far=20as=20intellectual=20disabilities=20go,=20in=20= some=20 cases =20this=20judgment=20might=20be=20right;=20in=20other=20cases=20it=20might= =20be=20wrong.=20 But=20if =20someone=20is=20clearly=20not=20able=20to=20manage=20adult=20expenses,=20= should=20 they=20be =20paid=20adult=20wages?=20It's=20tricky. =20I=20can=20also=20understand=20the=20argument=20that=20if=20noncompetitiv= e=20 employment =20programs=20for=20the=20disabled=20raise=20wages,=20they=20can't=20hire=20= as=20many =20workers.=20This=20ultimately=20means=20that=20instead=20of=20a=20bunch=20= of=20 disabled =20workers=20earning=20crappy=20wages,=20some=20will=20earn=20a=20decent=20= wage=20and=20 others =20will=20earn=20nothing.=20Of=20course,=20we=20hope=20that=20the=20reducti= on=20in =20noncompetitive=20jobs=20might=20bring=20more=20disabled=20workers=20into= =20the =20competitive=20job=20market.=20A=20mandatory=20minimum=20wage=20would=20a= lso=20 force =20companies=20with=20high=20salaries=20at=20the=20top=20to=20redistribute= =20their=20 payscale =20more=20fairly. =20Arielle =20On=206/9/12,=20Chris=20Nusbaum=20=20wrote: =20I=20agree,=20Humberto,=20and=20I=20hope=20what=20you=20say=20comes=20tru= e.=20However,=20 there's=20a =20lot=20of=20change=20we=20need=20to=20make=20in=20order=20for=20this=20to= =20happen.=20Even=20 if=20we =20overturn=20the=20subminimum=20wage=20provision,=20and=20I=20hope=20and=20= pray=20that=20 we=20do, =20we =20can't=20possibly=20tell=20employers=20that=20they=20have=20to=20hire=20p= eople=20with =20disabilities.=20So,=20we=20need=20to=20change=20the=20beliefs=20and=20th= e=20 attidudes=20of =20society,=20including=20employers,=20about=20the=20competence=20of=20blin= d=20 people.=20I =20know, =20it's=20a=20big=20job,=20but=20I=20think=20we've=20made=20a=20lot=20of=20= progress=20so=20far. =20Just=20my=20thoughts, =20Chris =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org=20 [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20Behalf=20Of=20Humberto=20Avila =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2009,=202012=2010:10=20PM =20To:=20'National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list' =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Goodwill=20Boycott =20Hello,=20I=20agree=20with=20this=20as=20well.=20I=20hope=20that=20by=20d= oing=20the=20 boycott=20to =20this =20company,=20in=20the=20national=20/=20universal=20spectrum,=20we=20are=20= able=20to=20 put =20pressure =20on=20employers,=20and=20on=20other=20companies=20and=20corporations,=20a= s=20well=20 as =20organizations=20who=20pay=20subminimum=20wages.=20We=20could=20eventuall= y=20end=20 up =20spreading=20the=20word=20of=20stopping=20companies=20to=20pay=20subminim= um=20wages=20 and=20they =20could=20even=20see=20that=20people=20with=20disabilities=20and=20includi= ng=20blind=20 people =20are =20capable=20of=20being=20paid=20like=20the=20sighted=20population.=20If=20= potential=20 employers =20see=20this=20change=20happening,=20those=20employers=20will=20have=20a=20= light=20 bulb=20lit=20up, =20and=20will=20be=20able=20to=20see=20that=20blind=20people=20are=20compet= ent,=20then=20 will=20hire =20them.=20Then=20we=20can=20make=20more=20change.=20I=20see=20this=20happe= ning,=20from=20 my =20personal =20opinion.=20Let's=20hope=20that=20the=20NFB=20does=20this. =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org=20 [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20Behalf=20Of=20Sophie=20Trist =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2009,=202012=206:57=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Goodwill=20Boycott =20Justin, =20I=20agree=20with=20the=20points=20you've=20made.=20If=20Goodwill=20was=20= boycotted =20universally, =20it=20would=20put=20more=20pressure=20on=20them=20to=20pay=20their=20disa= bled=20workers=20 fair =20wages.=20Plus,=20if=20Goodwill=20developed=20a=20centralized=20wage=20po= licy=20and=20 gave =20their =20workers=20fair=20wages,=20other=20corporations=20might=20follow=20their= =20lead. =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Justin=20Salisbury=20 References: <008301cd46b7$318483e0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <2DB4714F-7328-4AEE-B394-EE5FA830DA47@gmail.com> I can't imagine that the cab company wouldn't know where the stop of a major bus carrier like mega bus is located… And, honestly, is 4 miles a really bad cab fare? Especially if you're going to split between several people? It doesn't seem that hefty to me. Just my two cents, Kurt Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2012, at 9:14 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > Hello everyone, > > Anyone planning to come to Dallas using Megabus needs to know that the > stop where passengers are dropped off and picked up is located at the > intersection of Elm and Olive Streets. I'm not sure if this is downtown > Dallas or if it's out a ways. The stop is four miles from the Hilton Anatole > so you will need to arrange transportation between the Megabus stop and the > Hilton Anatole. > > We're hoping someone in the Dallas area can help us out as there is no > physical address for this stop one can use for scheduling DART rides or > other transportation between it and the convention hotel. Before attempting > any fixes for this situation for ourselves we'd like to find out if there > are members in the Dallas area familiar with the part of town where the > Megabus stop is located, the nearest physical address to the stop, and what > types of transportation may be available to shuttle convention attendees > between the stop and the Hilton Anatole when they arrive and leave to return > home on Megabus. Any plans of action folks may have all ready come up with > will be very much appreciated. There are at least 10 members coming to the > convention on Megabus from San Antonio. All the best. > > Peter Donahue > > > > > > Peter Donahue > > “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper.” > Isaiah 54:17 > > “While for our princes they prepare > In caverns deep a burning snare, > He shot from heaven a piercing ray, > And the dark treachery brought to day.” > Anonymous > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 15:26:57 2012 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:26:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Megabus Stop in Dallas In-Reply-To: <2DB4714F-7328-4AEE-B394-EE5FA830DA47@gmail.com> References: <008301cd46b7$318483e0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <2DB4714F-7328-4AEE-B394-EE5FA830DA47@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree. It is possible that cabs circulate around that area on a regular basis when the bus pulls in as a means to find business. If there is not one already waiting nearby, perhaps you can call one of the cab companies listed at the end of the restaurant guide that was recently circulated on the master email list. If you give them the name of the intersection you listed in your email as well as the fact that it is the Megabus stop, I am sure a cab driver would be able to find you. I do not think the cab fare should be too expensive especially if you are splitting it up between a large group of people. I have taken a cab a number of times between the Amtrak station and the hotel, and it never seemed outrageously expensive to me. Best of luck, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kirt" Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:01 AM To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Megabus Stop in Dallas > I can't imagine that the cab company wouldn't know where the stop of a > major bus carrier like mega bus is located… And, honestly, is 4 miles a > really bad cab fare? Especially if you're going to split between several > people? It doesn't seem that hefty to me. > Just my two cents, > Kurt > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 9, 2012, at 9:14 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> Anyone planning to come to Dallas using Megabus needs to know that the >> stop where passengers are dropped off and picked up is located at the >> intersection of Elm and Olive Streets. I'm not sure if this is downtown >> Dallas or if it's out a ways. The stop is four miles from the Hilton >> Anatole >> so you will need to arrange transportation between the Megabus stop and >> the >> Hilton Anatole. >> >> We're hoping someone in the Dallas area can help us out as there is no >> physical address for this stop one can use for scheduling DART rides or >> other transportation between it and the convention hotel. Before >> attempting >> any fixes for this situation for ourselves we'd like to find out if there >> are members in the Dallas area familiar with the part of town where the >> Megabus stop is located, the nearest physical address to the stop, and >> what >> types of transportation may be available to shuttle convention attendees >> between the stop and the Hilton Anatole when they arrive and leave to >> return >> home on Megabus. Any plans of action folks may have all ready come up >> with >> will be very much appreciated. There are at least 10 members coming to >> the >> convention on Megabus from San Antonio. All the best. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >> >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper.” >> Isaiah 54:17 >> >> “While for our princes they prepare >> In caverns deep a burning snare, >> He shot from heaven a piercing ray, >> And the dark treachery brought to day.” >> Anonymous >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 15:53:30 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <4fd45474.65b4ec0a.360b.05c2@mx.google.com> References: <4fd45474.65b4ec0a.360b.05c2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7D881DF779EA42598BC56B126CEE6D30@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello Beth, let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have enough reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. If you've read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. They shelter you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor definitely has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to school and get that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my graduation! If money is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can fully cover the cost of school, minus housing and food. Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people that I know about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business section and I was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and investing. I don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to really make something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one of those things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking and socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about how to find banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how to budget effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food and clothing, and no one needs any help on running a family in school. My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the students that come to her class have never had a communication class in their life, yet 100% of her students have had to communicate. We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life is I guess...? Personally I've found that those who have the most power over people in this world are those with money and those with exceptional communication skills. I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and go to Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the disability center is the best in the west. They also give oober scholarships to those students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand in scholarships*. Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one can get renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every part of school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking problem as we are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's on the radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but besides that, the Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any general college that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, because not only is the blindness support so great, but public transportation is the best in the nation for both those places. But enough on me pushing SF...! Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose of Daily living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the "Vista Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become independent. I love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move out on my own when I was 18. I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and Justin was saying something about attending a program that also teaches living skills. But my teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those who go above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they were taught on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. They expect everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones who generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, if I were you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting him know that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take care of himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but you can let him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than it's time to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want to be sent to one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first hand why he must learn living skills in order to be free. I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until after your Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life to live and you should not be forced to live for two people which you would be doing if you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to prom with a girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a girlfriend till my last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. I didn't have another till a little over a year after that. It was with that second girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the worst things since the invention of eyes. If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear yourself think, let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed together on all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how to dance by your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but the dance itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the romantic part, you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the Blue Danube at the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have a dance to call themselves a dance? anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when you're going through school than the social aspects. In college though, guys become much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just because they have lived and learned much more through their life. Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature enough in some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature when it came to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should never expect people to change. So part of my problem about having a small social life is that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still much to immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm not socially mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the biggest problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves off as good relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was only blind this would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, being able to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one wants to make it in anything other than strictly working in something like the NFB or Goodwill. We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people think and how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted people. Once we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're blind, we should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we are blind. Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they will look no farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being disabled is repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do anything in the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a sighted person first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one is able to make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not repulsive and weird. Thank you, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Beth Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and mentally ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've been called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that with the right support and good friends around me, I could thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with rapids that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off of, and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer for all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What if I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he won't have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. I was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the weird part is that his parents are open to us having a relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live together successfully with all the right supports, and if we can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. But I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like how to go back and look at your payment history every time if you get suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, you have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this month because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to do, I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We wait on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca Salt in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a spoiled literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen Keller was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there were no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to me--hence the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a text message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a good while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services that may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and a good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social work degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not fit to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going through school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such pride a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and summer jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be offered a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where medical experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough blind computer engineers, except those in the underground geek industry as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so to speak. Ok, my rant is over. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Hello, It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally disabled people really are mentally disabled. *That's a mouthful!* I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed and jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into doing jobs they aren?�t good at. I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the first place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is for college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when work isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I go into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hi all, I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had independent access to the money she earned at her job. I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should never be said about people who are just blind without other disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be paid adult wages? It's tricky. I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale more fairly. Arielle On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, we can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I know, it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. Just my thoughts, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Avila Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Justin, I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Salisbury I=20was=20very=20fortunate=20to=20have=20a=20good=20TVI=20for=20most=20of=20= my=20life,=20but=20 when=20Hurricane=20Katrina=20hit,=20I=20was=20forced=20to=20leave=20home=20= and=20attend=20 a=20school=20for=20the=20blind.=20I=20was=20shocked=20at=20how=20horrible=20= it=20was.=20On=20 my=20first=20day=20there,=20I=20was=20taken=20to=20a=20VI=20class=20and=20a= sked=20to=20read=20a=20 braille=20book=20so=20that=20they=20could=20evaluate=20my=20skills.=20Withi= n=20five=20 minutes,=20they=20sent=20me=20right=20back=20to=20class.=20The=20TVI's=20th= ere=20had=20 nothing=20new=20to=20teach=20me.=20I=20was=20in=20a=20third/fourth-grade=20= class,=20and=20 the=20work=20was=20first-grade=20level.=20This=20boils=20down=20to=20we=20n= eed=20better=20 TVI's=20and=20more=20of=20them. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Joshua=20Lester=20=20 wrote: =20Hello, =20I'm=20sure=20many=20people=20who=20have=20talked=20to=20me=20before=20kn= ow=20what=20I'm=20 going=20to =20say... =20It's=20the=20educational=20system=20that=20many=20of=20these=20problems= =20come=20 down=20to.=20We =20have=20teachers=20coming=20out=20of=20school=20who=20are=20not=20inspire= d=20to=20 create=20a=20new =20style=20of=20teaching.=20We=20have=20teachers=20who=20are=20never=20taug= ht=20about=20 disabled =20students.=20We=20have=20blind=20students=20who=20are=20never=20taught=20= how=20to=20ask=20 for =20accommodations.=20We=20have=20parents=20who=20think=20being=20blind=20is= =20bad! =20Honestly,=20if=20I=20could=20have=20redone=20my=20education=20as=20a=20s= ighted=20 person,=20I=20would =20not=20have=20done=20it.=20Being=20blind=20is=20such=20an=20advantage=20i= n=20the=20United=20 States=20when =20going=20through=20school.=20You=20get=20extra=20time=20on=20everything,= =20you=20get=20 leniency=20on =20all=20your=20assignments=20if=20you=20can't=20finish=20them=20on=20time,= =20you=20get=20 free =20schooling,=20you=20get=20paid=20to=20go=20through=20school=20by=20SSI,=20= you=20have=20so=20 many =20scholarships=20you=20can=20apply=20for,=20you=20can=20use=20the=20law=20= to=20fight=20for =20accessibility=20with=20little=20retribution,=20you=20become=20great=20fr= iends=20 with=20your =20teachers=20just=20because=20you=20get=20to=20talk=20to=20them=20all=20th= e=20time,=20you=20 are=20by =20nature=20a=20very=20active=20participant=20in=20your=20class,=20you=20ar= e=20able=20to=20 read=20your =20books=201000=20times=20faster=20than=20all=20of=20the=20other=20students= =20combined,=20 you're=20able =20to=20get=20tutoring=20for=20free,=20you=20don't=20have=20to=20feel=20ash= amed=20for=20 taking =20advantage=20of=20any=20of=20the=20above=20benefits=20because=20you're=20= disabled=20 and=20that's =20what=20you're=20expected=20to=20do! =20Also,=20the=20expectation=20of=20your=20teachers=20is=20rather=20low=20a= nd=20when=20 you=20get=20100% =20on=20all=20their=20hardest=20tests=20they=20get=20all=20embarrassed,=20p= eople=20 think=20it's =20amazing=20that=20you're=20getting=20strait=20As=20when=20it's=20nothing,= =20 (Stereotypically) =20blind=20people=20are=20very=20unsocial=20so=20they=20have=20lots=20of=20= extra=20time=20 to=20do=20school =20work,=20you're=20able=20to=20actually=20edit=20your=20teacher's=20handou= ts=20and=20 instructions =20because=20Jaws=20doesn't=20miss=20skipped=20letters,=20if=20you=20have=20= a=20problem=20 with=20your =20online=20test=20you=20can=20blame=20it=20on=20your=20screen=20reader=20c= rashing=20the=20 web=20browser, =20state=20colleges=20gobble=20you=20up=20if=20you=20have=20ever=20taken=20= an=20honors=20 class=20at=20a =20community=20college=20and=20you=20have=20good=20grades=20and=20you've=20= written=20 one=20of=20those =20inspiring=20essays,=20when=20you=20write=20inspiring=20essays=20you=20ca= n=20get=20 the=20super =20arrogant=20feeling=20for=20a=20moment=20and=20say=20"That's=20me=20in=20= the=20essay!",=20 you're=20able =20to=20participate=20in=20all=20kinds=20of=20extra=20activities=20through= =20agencies=20 like=20Global =20explorers=20or=20the=20Light=20House,=20you=20can=20participate=20in=20s= ummer=20job=20 programs =20like=20YES1=20and=20YES2=20in=20Washington=20State,=20when=20you=20go=20= to=20community=20 college=20or =20state=20college=20you're=20given=20a=20guide=20through=20the=20school=20= because=20 you=20need=20a =20mobility=20lesson=20and=20you=20have=20the=20disability=20resource=20per= son... =20I=20should=20probably=20stop,=20but=20you=20get=20the=20idea... =20It's=20probably=20because=20I=20was=20homeschooled=20for=20the=20first=20= few=20years=20 of=20my=20life =20and=20did=20all=20kinds=20of=20super=20awesome=20things=20with=20my=20ov= erly=20amazing=20 parents=20and =20didn't=20enter=20public=20school=20till=205th=20grade=20that=20I=20have= =20this=20view=20 of=20school, =20but=20I=20understood=20that=20I=20could=20learn=20in=20public=20school=20= and=20it=20was=20 just=20that =20either=20the=20teacher=20wasn't=20teaching=20me=20or=20that=20I=20wasn't= =20equipped=20 with=20the =20skills=20or=20technology=20that=20was=20keeping=20me=20from=20learning. =20There=20are=20many=20other=20factors=20in=20learning,=20like=20Gardiner'= s=20 multiple=20=20theory =20of=20intelligences=20that=20play=20a=20factor=20in=20if=20one=20learns=20= in=20school,=20 but=20thank =20goodness=20I=20was=20able=20to=20learn=20that=20anyone=20can=20learn=20f= rom=20anyone,=20 they=20just =20need=20to=20know=20how=20they=20learn=20and=20learn=20that=20way! =20I=20can=20give=20examples,=20but=20this=20email=20is=20already=20super=20= long,=20so=20 I'll=20get=20off =20education. =20My=20point=20is=20that=20most=20blind=20people=20aren=E2=80=99t=20taught= =20about=20all=20the=20 above=20things. =20I=20was=20super=20lucky=20because=20my=20parents=20let=20me=20run=20my=20= IEP=20meetings=20 and=20my=20mom =20became=20a=20TVI=20half=20way=20through=20my=20schooling,=20but=20every= =20blind=20 person=20needs=20to =20know=20that=20school=20can=20be=20amazing!=20It=20is=20worth=20spending= =208-12=20years=20 of=20your =20life=20there=20getting=20your=20music=20degree=20or=20dentist=20degree. =20Another=20factor=20is=20that=20disabled=20people=20are=20fit=20into=20ev= en=20a=20 tighter=20mold=20of =20what=20they=20are=20to=20be=20when=20disabled=20people=20are=20the=20mos= t=20unique=20of=20 anyone. =20Blind=20people=20do=20not=20belong=20in=20special=20ed=20classes=20becau= se=20they=20 don't=20need =20special=20ed.=20Special=20ed=20teachers=20are=20people=20who=20teach=20e= xtreme=20 cases=20of =20autistic=20or=20other=20mentally=20disabled=20people.=20If=20a=20blind=20= person=20is=20 put=20into =20that=20environment=20and=20they=20don't=20need=20it,=20they=20will=20go= =20insane!=20 It's=20like=20if =20Stephen=20Hawking=20would=20have=20been=20born=20totally=20disabled=20an= d=20people=20 stuck=20him =20into=20special=20ed=20just=20because=20he=20can't=20talk! =20Where=20would=20cosmology=20be? =20Sadly=20it's=20those=20who=20break=20out=20of=20the=20mold=20and=20assim= ilate=20their=20 own=20way=20into =20sighted=20culture=20in=20order=20to=20evade=20the=20label=20of=20mentall= y=20disabled=20 that=20are =20fighting=20for=20these=20rights. =20I=20keep=20on=20telling=20people=20that=20if=20someone=20is=20considered= =20weird=20 it's=20not=20them =20that's=20weird,=20it's=20you=20who's=20weird=20for=20thinking=20that=20t= hey're=20 weird.=20It's =20like=20you=20thinking=20the=20person=20in=20front=20of=20you=20is=20goin= g=20through=20 time=20the=20same =20way=20you=20are! =20Sadly=20the=20world=20is=20not=20reasonable,=20so=20we=20have=20to=20shu= ck=20reason=20 and=20go=20for =20emotion.=20That's=20why=20we=20write=20all=20the=20super=20inspiring=20e= ssays=20and=20 that's=20why =20we=20have=20to=20assimilate=20into=20the=20sighted=20world. =20Those=20who=20end=20up=20working=20in=20low=20under=20minimum=20wage=20j= obs=20have=20 probably=20not =20learned=20how=20to=20assimilate=20enough=20to=20pass=20off=20as=20"norma= l"=20in=20the=20 sighted =20community,=20so=20that's=20probably=20why=20they=20can't=20get=20the=20e= ntry=20level=20 jobs. =20Before=20someone=20gives=20the=20line=20about=20not=20needing=20to=20be= =20anything=20 other=20than =20blind=20because=20we=20are=20blind,=20let=20me=20just=20say=20that=20mos= t=20of=20this=20 world=20likes=20to =20think=20they=20are=20sighted=20and=20normal.=20Most=20people=20like=20to= =20walk=20with=20 the=20crowd. =20Those=20who=20never=20learn=20to=20walk=20with=20the=20crowd=20are=20con= sidered=20 weird,=20those=20who =20learn=20how=20to=20walk=20with=20the=20crowd=20then=20figure=20out=20how= =20to=20rise=20 above=20it=20are =20considered=20great. =20Thanks, =20Brandon=20Keith=20Biggs =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Arielle=20Silverman =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2009,=202012=209:27=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Goodwill=20Boycott =20Hi=20Brandon, =20These=20are=20all=20good=20points.=20I=20like=20your=20statement=20about= =20blind=20 people =20who=20are=20"nurtured=20to=20act=20like=20they=20are=20mentally=20disabl= ed"=20as=20I=20 have =20met=20a=20few=20people=20who=20unfortunately=20seem=20to=20fit=20that=20= description. =20The=20problem=20is=20that=20there=20is=20no=20objective=20test=20to=20de= termine=20what=20 a =20person=20is=20or=20is=20not=20capable=20of=20doing.=20Even=20so-called=20= objective=20 tests =20like=20IQ=20tests=20are=20incredibly=20biased=20and=20don't=20account=20= for =20environmental=20factors=20that=20artificially=20limit=20people's=20abili= ties=20 or =20knowledge,=20like=20what=20is=20expected=20of=20them=20by=20parents=20an= d=20 teachers,=20or =20what=20skills=20they=20are=20or=20are=20not=20taught.=20There=20is=20res= earch=20 showing=20that =20when=20people=20are=20expected=20to=20behave=20or=20perform=20in=20a=20c= ertain=20way,=20 they =20tend=20to=20fulfill=20that=20expectation=20(this=20is=20called=20a=20 "self-fulfilling =20prophesy;=20if=20you're=20interested=20in=20the=20research,=20look=20up= =20 "Pygmalian =20effect").=20So=20when=20teachers=20are=20randomly=20told=20that=20some=20= kids=20are =20smarter=20than=20others,=20they=20tend=20to=20treat=20those=20"smart"=20= kids=20 differently =20without=20even=20realizing=20it=20and=20eventually=20the=20"smart"=20kid= s=20end=20up =20performing=20better=20than=20the=20other=20kids.=20The=20reverse=20patte= rn=20too=20 often =20happens=20with=20disabilities.=20People=20have=20so=20many=20assumptions= =20about=20 how =20disabilities=20limit=20potential,=20and=20people=20in=20authority=20can= =20act=20in=20 ways =20that=20make=20those=20assumptions=20come=20true. =20I=20also=20agree=20that=20people=20with=20disabilities=20would=20be=20mu= ch=20more =20productive=20in=20sheltered=20jobs=20if=20they=20did=20work=20that=20was= =20 intrinsically =20interesting=20to=20them=20and=20if=20the=20work=20was=20in=20a=20field=20= they=20were=20 actually =20good=20at.=20It=20is=20common=20knowledge=20that=20people=20of=20all=20a= ges=20and=20 mental =20abilities=20will=20do=20a=20better=20job=20at=20any=20task=20if=20they=20= find=20the=20task =20enjoyable=20and=20motivating.=20Too=20often,=20sheltered=20jobs=20are=20= simply=20 too =20boring=20to=20really=20engage=20people.=20Also,=20people=20with=20disabi= lities=20 have =20their=20own=20talents=20that=20are=20rarely=20utilized=20in=20sheltered= =20jobs.=20I=20 have =20figured=20out=20that=20if=20I=20were=20forced=20to=20do=20a=20sheltered= =20workshop=20 job,=20I =20would=20probably=20be=20the=20one=20losing=20them=20money=20if=20they=20= paid=20me=20at=20 minimum =20wage,=20because=20I=20have=20never=20been=20good=20at=20making=20stuff=20= with=20my=20 hands=20or =20using=20machines.=20Not=20only=20would=20I=20be=20bored=20to=20tears,=20= but=20I=20just =20wouldn't=20be=20good=20at=20it.=20I=20am=20much=20better=20at=20writing= =20and=20thinking=20 and =20doing=20math,=20so=20I=20hope=20that=20society=20will=20let=20me=20use=20= those=20skills =20instead=20of=20forcing=20me=20to=20do=20work=20I'm=20not=20skilled=20at.= =20Regarding=20your=20comment=20about=20unemployment=20among=20the=20blind,= =20it=20is=20 true =20that=20many=20fields=20are=20accessible=20to=20the=20blind=20these=20day= s,=20yet=20the =20unemployment=20rate=20is=20still=20staggering.=20There=20are=20many=20re= asons=20 for =20unemployment=20among=20the=20blind.=20I=20think=20one=20reason=20is=20th= at=20 employers =20want=20to=20hire=20applicants=20with=20relevant=20experience,=20and=20in= =20many=20 fields, =20the=20entry-level=20position=20that=20people=20get=20at=20first=20to=20g= ain=20 experience =20isn't=20accessible=20to=20the=20blind.=20This=20might=20not=20be=20true= =20with =20programming,=20but=20in=20some=20fields=20it=20is=20really=20hard=20to=20= get=20your=20 foot=20in =20the=20door=20even=20if=20it's=20easier=20to=20work=20at=20higher=20level= s.=20For=20 example, =20before=20becoming=20a=20teacher,=20you=20need=20to=20do=20student=20teac= hing,=20 which =20means=20you=20are=20working=20under=20someone=20else=20who=20might=20not= =20use=20 accessible =20materials=20or=20who=20will=20doubt=20your=20ability=20to=20do=20the=20j= ob.=20Without =20experience,=20it's=20harder=20to=20allay=20people's=20initial=20discrimi= natory =20doubts=20and=20fears=20about=20hiring=20a=20blind=20person.=20Also,=20ev= en=20within=20 an =20accessible=20field,=20individual=20employers=20might=20use=20materials=20= that=20 aren't =20accessible=20to=20the=20blind.=20So=20even=20though=20programming=20is=20= very =20accessible,=20if=20some=20employers=20require=20you=20to=20use=20languag= es=20or=20 scripts =20that=20aren't=20accessible,=20this=20will=20limit=20job=20options. =20Arielle =20On=206/9/12,=20Brandon=20Keith=20Biggs=20=20= wrote: =20Hello, =20It's=20a=20tricky=20situation.=20We=20can't=20really=20say=20what=20it's= =20like=20 being=20mentally =20disabled=20and=20it's=20hard=20to=20say=20what=20mentally=20disabled=20c= an=20or=20can=20 not=20do.=20We =20also=20can't=20tell=20if=20the=20blind=20who=20are=20nurtured=20to=20act= =20like=20 mentally =20disabled =20people=20really=20are=20mentally=20=20disabled. =20*That's=20a=20mouthful!* =20I=20am=20of=20the=20opinion=20that=20mentally=20disabled=20people=20are= =20way=20under=20 employed =20and =20jobs=20like=20Goodwill=20are=20completely=20the=20wrong=20job=20for=20ma= ny=20of=20 them.=20But=20I'm =20not=20a=20professional=20and=20I=20can=20only=20say=20from=20personal=20= experience=20=20 that=20many =20mentally=20disabled=20people=20can=20do=20what=20they=20want=20quite=20w= ell=20and=20 often=20it's =20because=20they=20are=20babied=20and=20misunderstood=20=20that=20they=20a= re=20 pressured=20into =20doing=20jobs=20they=20aren=E2=80=99t=20good=20at. =20I=20do=20wonder=20the=20need=20of=20blind=20adults=20to=20be=20working=20= at=20good=20will=20 in=20the =20first =20place=20though=20when=20it's=20not=20that=20hard=20learning=20programmin= g=20and=20 it's=20pretty =20easy=20to=20get=20reeducated=20for=20free=20in=20the=20United=20States=20= as=20a=20blind=20 person.=20If =20your=20career=20isn't=20working=20out,=20I=20don't=20see=20why=20one=20w= ouldn't=20just=20 take=20a =20class=20at=20their=20community=20college=20and=20change=20their=20job.=20= I=20believe=20 SSI=20is =20for =20college=20students=20and=20those=20fresh=20out=20of=20college,=20or=20fo= r=20a=20back=20 up=20when =20work =20isn't=20coming.=20I=20am=20still=20a=20student,=20but=20I=20know=20I=20h= ave=20for=20sure=20 jobs=20if=20I =20go =20into=20programming=20or=20being=20a=20TVI.=20So=20other=20than=20the=20m= oral=20=20 issues,=20I'm=20not =20sure=20why=20capable=20blind=20people=20are=20working=20at=20goodwill. =20Thanks, =20Brandon=20Keith=20Biggs =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Arielle=20Silverman =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2009,=202012=208:32=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Goodwill=20Boycott =20Hi=20all, =20I=20don't=20shop=20at=20Goodwill=20either,=20but=20I=20was=20regularly=20= donating=20 items =20like=20used=20clothes=20to=20Goodwill,=20and=20my=20parents=20do=20as=20= well.=20A=20 customer =20boycott=20might=20not=20matter=20much=20but=20a=20donor=20boycott=20woul= d=20probably=20 hurt =20them=20considerably.=20I=20have=20to=20say=20I=20found=20Justin's=20argu= ments=20very =20persuasive.=20I=20just=20hope=20that=20if=20we=20boycott=20all=20branche= s=20 nationally,=20we =20make=20it=20very=20clear=20that=20what=20we=20want=20is=20a=20change=20t= o=20national=20 policy. =20Interestingly,=20I=20used=20to=20rent=20an=20apartment=20from=20a=20woma= n=20(I'll=20 call=20her =20S)=20whose=20full-time=20job=20was=20to=20be=20a=20live-in=20caretaker=20= for=20a=20woman=20 with =20Down's=20syndrome=20and=20significant=20mental=20retardation=20(I'll=20c= all=20 her=20C). =20Since=20I=20rented=20the=20apartment=20right=20below=20theirs,=20I=20got= =20to=20know=20 both=20S =20and=20C=20quite=20well=20and=20learned=20a=20bit=20about=20C's=20situati= on.=20 Apparently=20C =20is=20employed=20by=20a=20program=20for=20people=20with=20intellectual=20= disabilities =20similar=20to=20Goodwill's=20but=20it=20wasn't=20Goodwill=20itself.=20I=20= think=20S.=20 told =20me=20that=20C.=20was=20paid=20around=20$1=20per=20hour=20for=20doing=20a= n=20extremely=20 menial =20job=20although=20I=20don't=20remember=20what=20that=20job=20was=20exactl= y.=20 However,=20I =20don't=20think=20C.=20had=20any=20living=20expenses=20at=20all=20because= =20she=20lived =20rent-free=20with=20S.=20She=20may=20have=20been=20helping=20pay=20for=20= groceries.=20 The =20program=20she=20was=20in=20was=20very=20custodial=20and=20I'm=20not=20su= re=20she=20even=20 had =20independent=20access=20to=20the=20money=20she=20earned=20at=20her=20job.= =20I=20don't=20think=20I=20can=20really=20judge=20whether=20people=20with=20= disabilities=20like =20C.'s=20are=20capable=20of=20living=20without=20custodial=20care=20or=20s= pending=20 their =20own=20money,=20any=20more=20than=20a=20deaf=20person=20should=20be=20abl= e=20to=20judge=20 how =20independent=20blind=20people=20can=20be.=20I=20do=20suspect=20that=20peo= ple=20like=20 C. =20would=20achieve=20more=20if=20they=20were=20held=20to=20higher=20expecta= tions,=20and =20higher=20expectations=20should=20come=20with=20higher=20wages=20and=20mo= re=20 freedom. =20I=20definitely=20believe=20that=20anyone=20who=20lives=20independently=20= should=20 be =20paid=20at=20least=20the=20minimum=20wage,=20and=20I=20think=20it=20is=20= clear=20that=20 blindness =20by=20itself=20doesn't=20prevent=20anyone=20from=20living=20independently= .=20 However,=20I =20do=20wonder=20if=20minimum=20wage=20is=20necessary=20for=20those=20who=20= don't=20have=20 living =20expenses=20or=20who=20don't=20manage=20their=20own=20finances=20because= =20they=20are =20living=20in=20custodial=20care=20situations.=20I'm=20sure=20there=20are= =20people=20 in =20these=20custodial=20arrangements=20who=20shouldn't=20be=20there,=20but=20= that=20 almost =20sounds=20like=20a=20separate=20issue.=20These=20people=20aren't=20in=20c= ustodial=20 care =20because=20they=20are=20earning=20low=20wages,=20but=20because=20their=20= parents=20or =20others=20acting=20on=20their=20behalf=20have=20decided=20they=20don't=20= have=20the =20intellect=20or=20the=20maturity=20to=20make=20adult=20decisions.=20Again= ,=20this=20 should =20never=20be=20said=20about=20people=20who=20are=20just=20blind=20without= =20other =20disabilities.=20As=20far=20as=20intellectual=20disabilities=20go,=20in=20= some=20 cases =20this=20judgment=20might=20be=20right;=20in=20other=20cases=20it=20might= =20be=20wrong.=20 But=20if =20someone=20is=20clearly=20not=20able=20to=20manage=20adult=20expenses,=20= should=20 they=20be =20paid=20adult=20wages?=20It's=20tricky. =20I=20can=20also=20understand=20the=20argument=20that=20if=20noncompetitiv= e=20 employment =20programs=20for=20the=20disabled=20raise=20wages,=20they=20can't=20hire=20= as=20many =20workers.=20This=20ultimately=20means=20that=20instead=20of=20a=20bunch=20= of=20 disabled =20workers=20earning=20crappy=20wages,=20some=20will=20earn=20a=20decent=20= wage=20and=20 others =20will=20earn=20nothing.=20Of=20course,=20we=20hope=20that=20the=20reducti= on=20in =20noncompetitive=20jobs=20might=20bring=20more=20disabled=20workers=20into= =20the =20competitive=20job=20market.=20A=20mandatory=20minimum=20wage=20would=20a= lso=20 force =20companies=20with=20high=20salaries=20at=20the=20top=20to=20redistribute= =20their=20 payscale =20more=20fairly. =20Arielle =20On=206/9/12,=20Chris=20Nusbaum=20=20wrote: =20I=20agree,=20Humberto,=20and=20I=20hope=20what=20you=20say=20comes=20tru= e.=20However,=20 there's=20a =20lot=20of=20change=20we=20need=20to=20make=20in=20order=20for=20this=20to= =20happen.=20Even=20 if=20we =20overturn=20the=20subminimum=20wage=20provision,=20and=20I=20hope=20and=20= pray=20that=20 we=20do, =20we =20can't=20possibly=20tell=20employers=20that=20they=20have=20to=20hire=20p= eople=20with =20disabilities.=20So,=20we=20need=20to=20change=20the=20beliefs=20and=20th= e=20 attidudes=20of =20society,=20including=20employers,=20about=20the=20competence=20of=20blin= d=20 people.=20I =20know, =20it's=20a=20big=20job,=20but=20I=20think=20we've=20made=20a=20lot=20of=20= progress=20so=20far. =20Just=20my=20thoughts, =20Chris =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org=20 [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20Behalf=20Of=20Humberto=20Avila =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2009,=202012=2010:10=20PM =20To:=20'National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list' =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Goodwill=20Boycott =20Hello,=20I=20agree=20with=20this=20as=20well.=20I=20hope=20that=20by=20d= oing=20the=20 boycott=20to =20this =20company,=20in=20the=20national=20/=20universal=20spectrum,=20we=20are=20= able=20to=20 put =20pressure =20on=20employers,=20and=20on=20other=20companies=20and=20corporations,=20a= s=20well=20 as =20organizations=20who=20pay=20subminimum=20wages.=20We=20could=20eventuall= y=20end=20 up =20spreading=20the=20word=20of=20stopping=20companies=20to=20pay=20subminim= um=20wages=20 and=20they =20could=20even=20see=20that=20people=20with=20disabilities=20and=20includi= ng=20blind=20 people =20are =20capable=20of=20being=20paid=20like=20the=20sighted=20population.=20If=20= potential=20 employers =20see=20this=20change=20happening,=20those=20employers=20will=20have=20a=20= light=20 bulb=20lit=20up, =20and=20will=20be=20able=20to=20see=20that=20blind=20people=20are=20compet= ent,=20then=20 will=20hire =20them.=20Then=20we=20can=20make=20more=20change.=20I=20see=20this=20happe= ning,=20from=20 my =20personal =20opinion.=20Let's=20hope=20that=20the=20NFB=20does=20this. =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org=20 [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On =20Behalf=20Of=20Sophie=20Trist =20Sent:=20Saturday,=20June=2009,=202012=206:57=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20Goodwill=20Boycott =20Justin, =20I=20agree=20with=20the=20points=20you've=20made.=20If=20Goodwill=20was=20= boycotted =20universally, =20it=20would=20put=20more=20pressure=20on=20them=20to=20pay=20their=20disa= bled=20workers=20 fair =20wages.=20Plus,=20if=20Goodwill=20developed=20a=20centralized=20wage=20po= licy=20and=20 gave =20their =20workers=20fair=20wages,=20other=20corporations=20might=20follow=20their= =20lead. =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Justin=20Salisbury=20 Rmlyc3Qgb2ZmLCBteSBib3lmcmllbmQgY2FuJ3QgZ28gdG8gYW4gaW5kZXBlbmRlbnQgbGl2aW5n IGNlbnRlciAKb3V0IG9mIHN0YXRlLiAgSXQgdG9vayB0aGF0IHRvIGdldCBtZSB0byBsZWFybiBk YWlseSBsaXZpbmcgCnNraWxscy4gIEkgbGl2ZSBpbiBteSBvd24sIGJ1dCBJIGhhdGUgdG8gbGl2 ZSBmb3IgdHdvIHBlb3BsZS4gIApZb3UndmUgZ290IGdyZWF0IHBvaW50cywgQnJhbmRvbi4gIE15 IGJveWZyaWVuZCB3aWxsIGhhdmUgdG8gZG8gCmRhaWx5IGxpdmluZyB0cmFpbm5pbmcsIG1heWJl 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aG1lbnQgd2FzIHNjcnViYmVkLi4uCk5hbWU6IGF0dGFjaG1lbnQKVHlwZTogYXBwbGljYXRpb24v b2N0ZXQtc3RyZWFtClNpemU6IDMwNSBieXRlcwpEZXNjOiBub3QgYXZhaWxhYmxlClVSTDogPGh0 dHA6Ly9uZmJuZXQub3JnL3BpcGVybWFpbC9uYWJzLWxfbmZibmV0Lm9yZy9hdHRhY2htZW50cy8y MDEyMDYxMC9kN2FiODNmYS9hdHRhY2htZW50LmE+Cg== From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 10 16:46:55 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:46:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <4fd4cae6.106a650a.37b9.ffffe304@mx.google.com> References: <4fd4cae6.106a650a.37b9.ffffe304@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sophie! You don't know how bad schools for the blind are! Good grief! When I attended the Jumpstart program, at Arkansas School for the Blind, I was sad to see kids my age, who should've graduated from high school, who had straight A's, be held back! I asked around, and the oldest graduates from the school, in 2007, was 25 years old! That's what one former student told me. Sad! Blessings, Joshua On 6/10/12, Sophie Trist wrote: > I was very fortunate to have a good TVI for most of my life, but > when Hurricane Katrina hit, I was forced to leave home and attend > a school for the blind. I was shocked at how horrible it was. On > my first day there, I was taken to a VI class and asked to read a > braille book so that they could evaluate my skills. Within five > minutes, they sent me right back to class. The TVI's there had > nothing new to teach me. I was in a third/fourth-grade class, and > the work was first-grade level. This boils down to we need better > TVI's and more of them. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:11:25 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Wow! > You're right! > I didn't have a real TVI, for 6/12th grade. > My TVI, (So called,) was a special Ed teacher, who ended up > getting > trained as a TVI. > If she wasn't there to help me, guess where I was forced to go! > Yup! > Special Ed classes! > Of course, I enjoyed it, because the instructor knew I didn't > need to > be there, so she allowed me to help her with the kids, that > actually > needed the help. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > wrote: > Hello, > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm > going to > say... > It's the educational system that many of these problems come > down to. We > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to > create a new > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about > disabled > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask > for > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted > person, I would > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United > States when > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get > leniency on > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get > free > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so > many > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends > with your > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you > are by > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to > read your > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, > you're able > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for > taking > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled > and that's > what you're expected to do! > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when > you get 100% > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people > think it's > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, > (Stereotypically) > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time > to do school > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and > instructions > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem > with your > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the > web browser, > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors > class at a > community college and you have good grades and you've written > one of those > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get > the super > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", > you're able > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies > like Global > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job > programs > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community > college or > state college you're given a guide through the school because > you need a > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person... > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years > of my life > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing > parents and > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view > of school, > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was > just that > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped > with the > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's > multiple theory > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, > but thank > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, > they just > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so > I'll get off > education. > My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the > above things. > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings > and my mom > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind > person needs to > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years > of your > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a > tighter mold of > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of > anyone. > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they > don't need > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme > cases of > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is > put into > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! > It's like if > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people > stuck him > into special ed just because he can't talk! > Where would cosmology be? > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their > own way into > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled > that are > fighting for these rights. > > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird > it's not them > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're > weird. It's > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through > time the same > way you are! > > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason > and go for > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and > that's why > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have > probably not > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the > sighted > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level > jobs. > > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything > other than > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this > world likes to > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with > the crowd. > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered > weird, those who > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise > above it are > considered great. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi Brandon, > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind > people > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I > have > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what > a > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective > tests > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities > or > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and > teachers, or > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research > showing that > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, > they > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a > "self-fulfilling > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up > "Pygmalian > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids > differently > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too > often > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about > how > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in > ways > that make those assumptions come true. > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was > intrinsically > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were > actually > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and > mental > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply > too > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities > have > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I > have > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop > job, I > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at > minimum > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my > hands or > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking > and > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is > true > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons > for > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that > employers > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many > fields, > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain > experience > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your > foot in > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For > example, > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, > which > means you are working under someone else who might not use > accessible > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within > an > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that > aren't > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or > scripts > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > wrote: > Hello, > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like > being mentally > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can > not do. We > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like > mentally > disabled > people really are mentally disabled. > *That's a mouthful!* > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under > employed > and > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of > them. But I'm > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience > that many > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and > often it's > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are > pressured into > doing jobs they aren’t good at. > > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will > in the > first > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and > it's pretty > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind > person. If > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just > take a > class at their community college and change their job. I believe > SSI is > for > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back > up when > work > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure > jobs if I > go > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral > issues, I'm not > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi all, > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating > items > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A > customer > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably > hurt > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches > nationally, we > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national > policy. > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll > call her > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman > with > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call > her C). > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know > both S > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. > Apparently C > is employed by a program for people with intellectual > disabilities > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. > told > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely > menial > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. > However, I > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. > The > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even > had > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > I don't think I can really judge whether people with > disabilities like > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending > their > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge > how > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like > C. > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more > freedom. > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should > be > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that > blindness > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. > However, I > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have > living > expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are > living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people > in > these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that > almost > sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial > care > because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or > others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the > intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this > should > never be said about people who are just blind without other > disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some > cases > this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. > But if > someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should > they be > paid adult wages? It's tricky. > I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive > employment > programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many > workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of > disabled > workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and > others > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in > noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the > competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also > force > companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their > payscale > more fairly. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, > there's a > lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even > if we > overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that > we do, > we > can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with > disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the > attidudes of > society, including employers, about the competence of blind > people. I > know, > it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the > boycott to > this > company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to > put > pressure > on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well > as > organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end > up > spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages > and they > could even see that people with disabilities and including blind > people > are > capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential > employers > see this change happening, those employers will have a light > bulb lit up, > and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then > will hire > them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from > my > personal > opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, > it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers > fair > wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and > gave > their > workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 2012 > 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers > within > Goodwill > Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply > by the > fact > that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a > universal > fair > wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the > education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed > citizens > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever > has.? > 뾏ARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies > and > rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a > benefit to > boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill > Industries > would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers > fair wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill > Industries to > adopt > a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the > approach > that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions > in > individual locations. I do understand the point of leading > local > business > leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their > workers > fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of > individuals > or > > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed > citizens > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever > has.? > 뾏ARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs- > l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 10 16:49:37 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <4fd4cd09.25d3650a.577b.ffffe93c@mx.google.com> References: <4fd4cd09.25d3650a.577b.ffffe93c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you need, to cook Southern food. Where is your new boyfriend from? Thanks, Joshua On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center > out of state. It took that to get me to learn daily living > skills. I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people. > You've got great points, Brandon. My boyfriend will have to do > daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills > teacher in his state that can help. I tried learning from a > daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with > never really told my parents they had to be patient. HE's lucky > his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone. > Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did. If I > have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and teach > myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some > of his favorites. But I'll be that patient with him and help him > get on his feet. I'll probably have to learn something, but I > think living in the bay area won't be possible. I have to live > where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever. > I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh > yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale > store unlike Goodwill. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello Beth, > let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have > enough > reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. > If you've > read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. > They shelter > you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor > definitely > has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to > school and get > that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my graduation! > If money > is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can fully > cover the > cost of school, minus housing and food. > Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people that > I know > about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business > section and I > was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and > investing. I > don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to > really make > something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one > of those > things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking > and > socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about > how to find > banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how > to budget > effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food > and clothing, > and no one needs any help on running a family in school. > My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the > students that > come to her class have never had a communication class in their > life, yet > 100% of her students have had to communicate. > We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life > is I > guess...? > Personally I've found that those who have the most power over > people in this > world are those with money and those with exceptional > communication skills. > I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and go > to > Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the > disability > center is the best in the west. They also give oober scholarships > to those > students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand > in > scholarships*. > Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one > can get > renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every > part of > school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. > Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking > problem as we > are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's > on the > radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but besides > that, the > Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any > general college > that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. > If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, > because not > only is the blindness support so great, but public transportation > is the > best in the nation for both those places. > But enough on me pushing SF...! > Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose > of Daily > living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the > "Vista > Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become > independent. I > love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move > out on my > own when I was 18. > I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and Justin > was saying > something about attending a program that also teaches living > skills. But my > teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those > who go > above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they > were taught > on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. > They expect > everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones > who > generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, > if I were > you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting > him know > that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take > care of > himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but you > can let > him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than > it's time > to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want to > be sent to > one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first > hand why he > must learn living skills in order to be free. > I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until > after your > Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life to > live and > you should not be forced to live for two people which you would > be doing if > you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. > > I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to > prom with a > girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a > girlfriend till my > last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. > I didn't > have another till a little over a year after that. It was with > that second > girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the > worst things > since the invention of eyes. > If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear > yourself think, > let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed > together on > all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how > to dance by > your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. > The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but the > dance > itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the > romantic part, > you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the Blue > Danube at > the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have > a dance to > call themselves a dance? > anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when > you're > going through school than the social aspects. In college though, > guys become > much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just > because they > have lived and learned much more through their life. > Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature > enough in > some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature > when it came > to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should never > expect > people to change. So part of my problem about having a small > social life is > that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still > much to > immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. > But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm > not socially > mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the > biggest > problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves > off as good > relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was only > blind this > would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, > being able > to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one > wants to > make it in anything other than strictly working in something like > the NFB or > Goodwill. > We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people > think and > how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted > people. Once > we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're > blind, we > should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we > are blind. > Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they > will look no > farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being > disabled is > repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do > anything in > the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a > sighted person > first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one > is able to > make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not > repulsive and > weird. > Thank you, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and mentally > ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've been > called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he > could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all > kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was > told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a > genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, > superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then > again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no > roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that > with the right support and good friends around me, I could > thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, > and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own > children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens > of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good > days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a > fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the > rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could > get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with rapids > that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest > "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages > thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that > blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. > My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly > teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I > struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off of, > and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage > fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck > paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep > track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer for > all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's > going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What if > I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry > Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare > surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he won't > have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel > can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. I > was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with > him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just > makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a > meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on > Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the > weird part is that his parents are open to us having a > relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not > limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer > people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live > together successfully with all the right supports, and if we > can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. But > I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to > manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to > my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason > there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old > mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. > My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so > good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like how > to go back and look at your payment history every time if you get > suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, you > have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I > may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt > Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this > month > because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to do, > I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless > you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about > disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to > learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, > blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the > parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their > flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the > same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We wait > on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. > Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't > necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca Salt > in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a spoiled > literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen Keller > was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was > deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are > ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there were > no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. > I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to me--hence > the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs > and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems > like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long > email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much > more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my > dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But > thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a text > message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like > yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible > phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my > ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which > is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my > friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to > change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a good > while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I > would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan > to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job > helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim > advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services that > may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with > human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if > there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd > like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but > where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and a > good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I > have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or > through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. > To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job > helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social work > degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to > advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, > "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not fit > to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of > nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem > to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they > don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more > to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and > they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But > what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to > gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have > because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people > are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social > workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me > keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going through > school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you > don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a > small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. > That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer > me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things > that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I > want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such pride > a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My > mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me > into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the > school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and summer > jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I > am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, > and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being > the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be offered > a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where medical > experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering > degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's > interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough blind > computer engineers, except those in the underground geek industry > as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to > communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so > to speak. > Ok, my rant is over. > Beth > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm > going to > say... > It's the educational system that many of these problems come down > to. We > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to create > a new > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about > disabled > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask > for > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted > person, I would > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United > States when > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get > leniency on > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get > free > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so > many > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends > with your > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you > are by > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to > read your > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, > you're able > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for > taking > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled > and that's > what you're expected to do! > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when you > get 100% > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people think > it's > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, > (Stereotypically) > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time to > do school > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and > instructions > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem > with your > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the > web browser, > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors > class at a > community college and you have good grades and you've written one > of those > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get the > super > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", > you're able > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies > like Global > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job > programs > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community > college or > state college you're given a guide through the school because you > need a > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person. > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years > of my life > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing > parents and > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view > of school, > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was > just that > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped > with the > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's > multiple theory > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, > but thank > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, > they just > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so > I'll get off > education. > My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all the > above things. > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings > and my mom > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind > person needs to > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years > of your > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a > tighter mold of > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of > anyone. > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they > don't need > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme > cases of > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is > put into > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! > It's like if > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people > stuck him > into special ed just because he can't talk! > Where would cosmology be? > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their > own way into > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled > that are > fighting for these rights. > > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird it's > not them > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're > weird. It's > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through > time the same > way you are! > > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason and > go for > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and > that's why > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have > probably not > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the > sighted > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level > jobs. > > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything > other than > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this > world likes to > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with > the crowd. > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered > weird, those who > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise > above it are > considered great. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi Brandon, > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind > people > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I > have > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what > a > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective > tests > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities > or > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, > or > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing > that > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, > they > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a > "self-fulfilling > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up > "Pygmalian > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids > differently > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too > often > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about > how > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in > ways > that make those assumptions come true. > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was > intrinsically > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were > actually > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and > mental > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply > too > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities > have > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I > have > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, > I > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at > minimum > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my > hands or > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking > and > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is > true > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that > employers > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many > fields, > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain > experience > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your > foot in > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For > example, > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which > means you are working under someone else who might not use > accessible > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within > an > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that > aren't > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or > scripts > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like > being mentally > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can > not do. We > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like > mentally > disabled > people really are mentally disabled. > *That's a mouthful!* > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under > employed > and > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of > them. But I'm > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience > that many > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and > often it's > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are > pressured into > doing jobs they aren?셳 good at. > > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will > in the > first > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and > it's pretty > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind > person. If > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just > take a > class at their community college and change their job. I believe > SSI is > for > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back > up when > work > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure > jobs if I > go > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral > issues, I'm not > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi all, > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating > items > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A > customer > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably > hurt > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches > nationally, we > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national > policy. > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll > call her > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman > with > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call > her C). > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know > both S > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. > Apparently C > is employed by a program for people with intellectual > disabilities > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. > told > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely > menial > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. > However, I > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. > The > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even > had > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > I don't think I can really judge whether people with > disabilities like > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending > their > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge > how > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like > C. > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more > freedom. > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should > be > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that > blindness > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. > However, I > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have > living > expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are > living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people > in > these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that > almost > sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial > care > because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or > others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the > intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this > should > never be said about people who are just blind without other > disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some > cases > this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. > But if > someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should > they be > paid adult wages? It's tricky. > I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive > employment > programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many > workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of > disabled > workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and > others > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in > noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the > competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also > force > companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their > payscale > more fairly. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, > there's a > lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even > if we > overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that > we do, > we > can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with > disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the > attidudes of > society, including employers, about the competence of blind > people. I > know, > it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the > boycott to > this > company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to > put > pressure > on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well > as > organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end > up > spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages > and they > could even see that people with disabilities and including blind > people > are > capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential > employers > see this change happening, those employers will have a light > bulb lit up, > and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then > will hire > them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from > my > personal > opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, > it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers > fair > wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and > gave > their > workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 2012 > 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers > within > Goodwill > Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply > by the > fact > that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a > universal > fair > wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the > education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 諛죇ver doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed > citizens > can change the world; indeed, it萸?the only thing that ever > has.? > 毓뢅RGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies > and > rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a > benefit to > boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill > Industries > would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers > fair wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill > Industries to > adopt > a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the > approach > that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions > in > individual locations. I do understand the point of leading > local > business > leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their > workers > fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of > individuals > or > > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 諛죇ver doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed > citizens > can change the world; indeed, it萸?the only thing that ever > has.? > 毓뢅RGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs- > l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo > se%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 16:59:28 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 10:59:28 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Message-ID: <4fd4d278.c383ec0a.37a5.fffffe87@mx.google.com> My=20new=20boyfriend=20is=20from=20Georgia,=20so=20yeah,=20I=20have=20a=20g= ood=20idea=20of=20 whuaft=20kind=20of=20foods=20he=20likes,=20sort=20of.=20:) Beth =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Joshua=20Lester=20=20wrote: =20First=20off,=20my=20boyfriend=20can't=20go=20to=20an=20independent=20liv= ing=20center =20out=20of=20state.=20=20It=20took=20that=20to=20get=20me=20to=20learn=20d= aily=20living =20skills.=20=20I=20live=20in=20my=20own,=20but=20I=20hate=20to=20live=20fo= r=20two=20people. =20You've=20got=20great=20points,=20Brandon.=20=20My=20boyfriend=20will=20h= ave=20to=20do =20daily=20living=20trainning,=20maybe=20I=20can=20find=20a=20daily=20livin= g=20skills =20teacher=20in=20his=20state=20that=20can=20help.=20=20I=20tried=20learnin= g=20from=20a =20daily=20living=20skills=20teacher,=20but=20the=20teachers=20I've=20worke= d=20with =20never=20really=20told=20my=20parents=20they=20had=20to=20be=20patient.=20= =20HE's=20lucky =20his=20girlfriend=20is=20blind=20and=20can=20cook=20just=20as=20good=20as= =20anyone. =20Btw,=20I=20made=20a=20casserole=20one=20day,=20and=20it's=20great=20that= =20I=20did.=20=20If=20 I =20have=20to=20move=20out=20with=20my=20boyffriend,=20I'll=20have=20to=20le= arn=20and=20 teach =20myself=20how=20to=20make=20deviled=20eggs=20and=20southern=20fried=20chi= cken,=20some =20of=20his=20favorites.=20=20But=20I'll=20be=20that=20patient=20with=20him= =20and=20help=20 him =20get=20on=20his=20feet.=20=20I'll=20probably=20have=20to=20learn=20someth= ing,=20but=20I =20think=20living=20in=20the=20bay=20area=20won't=20be=20possible.=20=20I=20= have=20to=20live =20where=20he=20is=20so=20that=20his=20heart=20doesn't=20get=20damaged=20or= =20whuaftever. =20I=20think=20we're=20better=20than=20the=20people=20at=20Goodwill,=20and= =20..=20oh =20yeah,=20hopefully,=20we=20get=20good=20furniture=20from=20a=20furniture= =20resale =20store=20unlike=20Goodwill. =20Beth =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Brandon=20Keith=20Biggs"=20 What's the latest on the Blind Driver Challenge car? Will it be at the convention, this year? I didn't see it on the agenda. Thanks, Joshua From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 10 17:09:35 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 12:09:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <4fd4d278.c383ec0a.37a5.fffffe87@mx.google.com> References: <4fd4d278.c383ec0a.37a5.fffffe87@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Wow! You'll be moving to Mr Lewis's headquarters. Speaking of which, I'm about to start a new thread about that! Blessings, Joshua On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > My new boyfriend is from Georgia, so yeah, I have a good idea of > whuaft kind of foods he likes, sort of. :) > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you > need, to > cook Southern food. > Where is your new boyfriend from? > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center > out of state. It took that to get me to learn daily living > skills. I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people. > You've got great points, Brandon. My boyfriend will have to do > daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills > teacher in his state that can help. I tried learning from a > daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with > never really told my parents they had to be patient. HE's lucky > his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone. > Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did. If > I > have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and > teach > myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some > of his favorites. But I'll be that patient with him and help > him > get on his feet. I'll probably have to learn something, but I > think living in the bay area won't be possible. I have to live > where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever. > I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh > yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale > store unlike Goodwill. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello Beth, > let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have > enough > reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. > If you've > read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. > They shelter > you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor > definitely > has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to > school and get > that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my > graduation! > If money > is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can > fully > cover the > cost of school, minus housing and food. > Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people > that > I know > about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business > section and I > was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and > investing. I > don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to > really make > something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one > of those > things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking > and > socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about > how to find > banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how > to budget > effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food > and clothing, > and no one needs any help on running a family in school. > My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the > students that > come to her class have never had a communication class in their > life, yet > 100% of her students have had to communicate. > We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life > is I > guess...? > Personally I've found that those who have the most power over > people in this > world are those with money and those with exceptional > communication skills. > I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and > go > to > Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the > disability > center is the best in the west. They also give oober > scholarships > to those > students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand > in > scholarships*. > Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one > can get > renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every > part of > school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. > Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking > problem as we > are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's > on the > radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but > besides > that, the > Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any > general college > that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. > If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, > because not > only is the blindness support so great, but public > transportation > is the > best in the nation for both those places. > But enough on me pushing SF...! > Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose > of Daily > living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the > "Vista > Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become > independent. I > love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move > out on my > own when I was 18. > I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and > Justin > was saying > something about attending a program that also teaches living > skills. But my > teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those > who go > above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they > were taught > on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. > They expect > everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones > who > generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, > if I were > you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting > him know > that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take > care of > himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but > you > can let > him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than > it's time > to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want > to > be sent to > one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first > hand why he > must learn living skills in order to be free. > I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until > after your > Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life > to > live and > you should not be forced to live for two people which you would > be doing if > you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. > > I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to > prom with a > girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a > girlfriend till my > last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. > I didn't > have another till a little over a year after that. It was with > that second > girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the > worst things > since the invention of eyes. > If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear > yourself think, > let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed > together on > all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how > to dance by > your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. > The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but > the > dance > itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the > romantic part, > you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the > Blue > Danube at > the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have > a dance to > call themselves a dance? > anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when > you're > going through school than the social aspects. In college though, > guys become > much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just > because they > have lived and learned much more through their life. > Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature > enough in > some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature > when it came > to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should > never > expect > people to change. So part of my problem about having a small > social life is > that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still > much to > immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. > But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm > not socially > mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the > biggest > problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves > off as good > relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was > only > blind this > would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, > being able > to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one > wants to > make it in anything other than strictly working in something > like > the NFB or > Goodwill. > We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people > think and > how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted > people. Once > we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're > blind, we > should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we > are blind. > Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they > will look no > farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being > disabled is > repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do > anything in > the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a > sighted person > first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one > is able to > make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not > repulsive and > weird. > Thank you, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and > mentally > ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've > been > called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he > could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all > kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was > told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a > genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, > superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then > again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no > roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that > with the right support and good friends around me, I could > thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, > and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own > children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens > of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good > days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a > fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the > rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could > get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with > rapids > that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest > "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages > thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that > blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. > My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly > teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I > struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off > of, > and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage > fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck > paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep > track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer > for > all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's > going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What > if > I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry > Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare > surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he > won't > have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel > can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. > I > was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with > him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just > makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a > meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on > Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the > weird part is that his parents are open to us having a > relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not > limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer > people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live > together successfully with all the right supports, and if we > can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. > But > I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to > manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to > my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason > there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old > mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. > My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so > good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like > how > to go back and look at your payment history every time if you > get > suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, > you > have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I > may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt > Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this > month > because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to > do, > I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless > you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about > disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to > learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, > blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the > parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their > flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the > same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We > wait > on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. > Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't > necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca > Salt > in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a > spoiled > literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen > Keller > was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was > deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are > ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there > were > no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. > I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to > me--hence > the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs > and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems > like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long > email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much > more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my > dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But > thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a > text > message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like > yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible > phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my > ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which > is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my > friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to > change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a > good > while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I > would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan > to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job > helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim > advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services > that > may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with > human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if > there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd > like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but > where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and > a > good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I > have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or > through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. > To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job > helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social > work > degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to > advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, > "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not > fit > to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of > nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem > to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they > don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more > to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and > they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But > what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to > gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have > because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people > are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social > workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me > keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going > through > school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you > don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a > small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. > That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer > me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things > that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I > want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such > pride > a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My > mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me > into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the > school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and > summer > jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I > am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, > and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being > the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be > offered > a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where > medical > experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering > degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's > interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough > blind > computer engineers, except those in the underground geek > industry > as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to > communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so > to speak. > Ok, my rant is over. > Beth > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm > going to > say... > It's the educational system that many of these problems come > down > to. We > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to > create > a new > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about > disabled > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask > for > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted > person, I would > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United > States when > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get > leniency on > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get > free > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so > many > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends > with your > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you > are by > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to > read your > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, > you're able > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for > taking > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled > and that's > what you're expected to do! > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when > you > get 100% > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people > think > it's > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, > (Stereotypically) > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time > to > do school > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and > instructions > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem > with your > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the > web browser, > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors > class at a > community college and you have good grades and you've written > one > of those > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get > the > super > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", > you're able > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies > like Global > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job > programs > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community > college or > state college you're given a guide through the school because > you > need a > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person. > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years > of my life > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing > parents and > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view > of school, > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was > just that > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped > with the > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's > multiple theory > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, > but thank > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, > they just > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so > I'll get off > education. > My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all > the > above things. > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings > and my mom > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind > person needs to > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years > of your > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a > tighter mold of > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of > anyone. > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they > don't need > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme > cases of > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is > put into > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! > It's like if > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people > stuck him > into special ed just because he can't talk! > Where would cosmology be? > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their > own way into > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled > that are > fighting for these rights. > > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird > it's > not them > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're > weird. It's > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through > time the same > way you are! > > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason > and > go for > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and > that's why > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have > probably not > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the > sighted > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level > jobs. > > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything > other than > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this > world likes to > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with > the crowd. > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered > weird, those who > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise > above it are > considered great. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi Brandon, > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind > people > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I > have > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what > a > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective > tests > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities > or > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and > teachers, > or > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research > showing > that > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, > they > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a > "self-fulfilling > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up > "Pygmalian > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids > differently > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too > often > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about > how > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in > ways > that make those assumptions come true. > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was > intrinsically > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were > actually > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and > mental > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply > too > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities > have > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I > have > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop > job, > I > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at > minimum > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my > hands or > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking > and > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is > true > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons > for > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that > employers > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many > fields, > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain > experience > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your > foot in > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For > example, > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, > which > means you are working under someone else who might not use > accessible > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within > an > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that > aren't > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or > scripts > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like > being mentally > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can > not do. We > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like > mentally > disabled > people really are mentally disabled. > *That's a mouthful!* > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under > employed > and > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of > them. But I'm > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience > that many > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and > often it's > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are > pressured into > doing jobs they aren?셳 good at. > > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will > in the > first > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and > it's pretty > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind > person. If > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just > take a > class at their community college and change their job. I believe > SSI is > for > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back > up when > work > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure > jobs if I > go > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral > issues, I'm not > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi all, > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating > items > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A > customer > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably > hurt > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches > nationally, we > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national > policy. > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll > call her > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman > with > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call > her C). > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know > both S > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. > Apparently C > is employed by a program for people with intellectual > disabilities > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. > told > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely > menial > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. > However, I > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. > The > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even > had > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > I don't think I can really judge whether people with > disabilities like > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending > their > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge > how > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like > C. > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more > freedom. > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should > be > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that > blindness > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Jun 10 17:13:23 2012 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 12:13:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Megabus Stop in Dallas References: <008301cd46b7$318483e0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <2DB4714F-7328-4AEE-B394-EE5FA830DA47@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003101cd472c$58227a00$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello everyone, I was just circulating an advisory guys. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Megabus Stop in Dallas I can't imagine that the cab company wouldn't know where the stop of a major bus carrier like mega bus is located… And, honestly, is 4 miles a really bad cab fare? Especially if you're going to split between several people? It doesn't seem that hefty to me. Just my two cents, Kurt Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2012, at 9:14 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > Hello everyone, > > Anyone planning to come to Dallas using Megabus needs to know that the > stop where passengers are dropped off and picked up is located at the > intersection of Elm and Olive Streets. I'm not sure if this is downtown > Dallas or if it's out a ways. The stop is four miles from the Hilton > Anatole > so you will need to arrange transportation between the Megabus stop and > the > Hilton Anatole. > > We're hoping someone in the Dallas area can help us out as there is no > physical address for this stop one can use for scheduling DART rides or > other transportation between it and the convention hotel. Before > attempting > any fixes for this situation for ourselves we'd like to find out if there > are members in the Dallas area familiar with the part of town where the > Megabus stop is located, the nearest physical address to the stop, and > what > types of transportation may be available to shuttle convention attendees > between the stop and the Hilton Anatole when they arrive and leave to > return > home on Megabus. Any plans of action folks may have all ready come up with > will be very much appreciated. There are at least 10 members coming to the > convention on Megabus from San Antonio. All the best. > > Peter Donahue > > > > > > Peter Donahue > > “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper.” > Isaiah 54:17 > > “While for our princes they prepare > In caverns deep a burning snare, > He shot from heaven a piercing ray, > And the dark treachery brought to day.” > Anonymous > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 17:13:00 2012 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 13:13:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Important: Email Address Will Be Changing Soon Message-ID: <4A1C5F7816454FE7814E7AE955B03B7A@AudioAccessFM> Hello All! I am sending you this email because I think it's time for me to retire my GMail address. For various reasons, I've not been able to keep up with it, which means it's not getting checked as often as it should. Rather than try to sort through massive messages, I think it's time for me to create a new email address that will checked frequently, and since I'm organizing my email a little better now, it will make it much easier for me to keep track of my email. The new email address will go into effect shortly, and I will let you know when this happens. If you want to get a jump start on updating your email information for me, please change the email you have for me from djdrocks4ever at gmail.com to djdrocks22180 at audioaccessfm.com I'll be sending out an email again when the change is about to take place. Please email me ba ck if you have any questions. >From David Dunphy ****** Want to listen to an internet radio station unlike any other? A station where you'll hear music, dramatic radio, tech talk, and more? If so, then check out Audio Access FM, the station that stretches the boundaries of sound entertainment while filling your life with sweet ear candy. We're still small, but we're slowly growing, so why not tune us in and give it a try. Visit us on the web at http://www.audioaccessfm.com and check out my show, The Djd Invasion, Monday nights at 8 PM eastern. Check us out, you won't be disappointed. From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 17:24:49 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 10:24:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School Message-ID: R there any grad students in NAB? I'm attending UA in Spring 4 MLS. R any of u going 2 Dallas? Deb Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 On Jun 10, 2012 10:17 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: > Wow! > You'll be moving to Mr Lewis's headquarters. > Speaking of which, I'm about to start a new thread about that! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > > My new boyfriend is from Georgia, so yeah, I have a good idea of > > whuaft kind of foods he likes, sort of. :) > > Beth > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Joshua Lester > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > > Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you > > need, to > > cook Southern food. > > Where is your new boyfriend from? > > Thanks, Joshua > > > > On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > > First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center > > out of state. It took that to get me to learn daily living > > skills. I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people. > > You've got great points, Brandon. My boyfriend will have to do > > daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills > > teacher in his state that can help. I tried learning from a > > daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with > > never really told my parents they had to be patient. HE's lucky > > his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone. > > Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did. If > > I > > have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and > > teach > > myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some > > of his favorites. But I'll be that patient with him and help > > him > > get on his feet. I'll probably have to learn something, but I > > think living in the bay area won't be possible. I have to live > > where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever. > > I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh > > yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale > > store unlike Goodwill. > > Beth > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > > Hello Beth, > > let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have > > enough > > reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. > > If you've > > read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. > > They shelter > > you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor > > definitely > > has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to > > school and get > > that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my > > graduation! > > If money > > is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can > > fully > > cover the > > cost of school, minus housing and food. > > Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people > > that > > I know > > about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business > > section and I > > was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and > > investing. I > > don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to > > really make > > something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one > > of those > > things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking > > and > > socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about > > how to find > > banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how > > to budget > > effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food > > and clothing, > > and no one needs any help on running a family in school. > > My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the > > students that > > come to her class have never had a communication class in their > > life, yet > > 100% of her students have had to communicate. > > We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life > > is I > > guess...? > > Personally I've found that those who have the most power over > > people in this > > world are those with money and those with exceptional > > communication skills. > > I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and > > go > > to > > Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the > > disability > > center is the best in the west. They also give oober > > scholarships > > to those > > students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand > > in > > scholarships*. > > Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one > > can get > > renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every > > part of > > school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. > > Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking > > problem as we > > are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's > > on the > > radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but > > besides > > that, the > > Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any > > general college > > that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. > > If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, > > because not > > only is the blindness support so great, but public > > transportation > > is the > > best in the nation for both those places. > > But enough on me pushing SF...! > > Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose > > of Daily > > living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the > > "Vista > > Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become > > independent. I > > love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move > > out on my > > own when I was 18. > > I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and > > Justin > > was saying > > something about attending a program that also teaches living > > skills. But my > > teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those > > who go > > above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they > > were taught > > on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. > > They expect > > everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones > > who > > generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, > > if I were > > you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting > > him know > > that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take > > care of > > himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but > > you > > can let > > him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than > > it's time > > to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want > > to > > be sent to > > one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first > > hand why he > > must learn living skills in order to be free. > > I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until > > after your > > Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life > > to > > live and > > you should not be forced to live for two people which you would > > be doing if > > you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. > > > > I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to > > prom with a > > girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a > > girlfriend till my > > last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. > > I didn't > > have another till a little over a year after that. It was with > > that second > > girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the > > worst things > > since the invention of eyes. > > If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear > > yourself think, > > let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed > > together on > > all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how > > to dance by > > your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. > > The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but > > the > > dance > > itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the > > romantic part, > > you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the > > Blue > > Danube at > > the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have > > a dance to > > call themselves a dance? > > anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when > > you're > > going through school than the social aspects. In college though, > > guys become > > much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just > > because they > > have lived and learned much more through their life. > > Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature > > enough in > > some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature > > when it came > > to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should > > never > > expect > > people to change. So part of my problem about having a small > > social life is > > that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still > > much to > > immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. > > But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm > > not socially > > mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the > > biggest > > problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves > > off as good > > relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was > > only > > blind this > > would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, > > being able > > to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one > > wants to > > make it in anything other than strictly working in something > > like > > the NFB or > > Goodwill. > > We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people > > think and > > how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted > > people. Once > > we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're > > blind, we > > should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we > > are blind. > > Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they > > will look no > > farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being > > disabled is > > repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do > > anything in > > the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a > > sighted person > > first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one > > is able to > > make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not > > repulsive and > > weird. > > Thank you, > > > > Brandon Keith Biggs > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Beth > > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > > Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and > > mentally > > ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've > > been > > called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he > > could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all > > kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was > > told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a > > genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, > > superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then > > again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no > > roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that > > with the right support and good friends around me, I could > > thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, > > and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own > > children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens > > of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good > > days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a > > fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the > > rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could > > get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with > > rapids > > that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest > > "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages > > thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that > > blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. > > My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly > > teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I > > struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off > > of, > > and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage > > fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck > > paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep > > track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer > > for > > all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's > > going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What > > if > > I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry > > Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare > > surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he > > won't > > have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel > > can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. > > I > > was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with > > him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just > > makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a > > meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on > > Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the > > weird part is that his parents are open to us having a > > relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not > > limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer > > people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live > > together successfully with all the right supports, and if we > > can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. > > But > > I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to > > manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to > > my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason > > there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old > > mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. > > My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so > > good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like > > how > > to go back and look at your payment history every time if you > > get > > suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, > > you > > have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I > > may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt > > Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this > > month > > because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to > > do, > > I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless > > you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about > > disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to > > learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, > > blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the > > parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their > > flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the > > same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We > > wait > > on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. > > Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't > > necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca > > Salt > > in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a > > spoiled > > literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen > > Keller > > was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was > > deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are > > ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there > > were > > no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. > > I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to > > me--hence > > the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs > > and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems > > like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long > > email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much > > more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my > > dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But > > thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a > > text > > message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like > > yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible > > phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my > > ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which > > is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my > > friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to > > change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a > > good > > while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I > > would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan > > to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job > > helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim > > advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services > > that > > may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with > > human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if > > there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd > > like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but > > where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and > > a > > good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I > > have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or > > through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. > > To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job > > helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social > > work > > degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to > > advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, > > "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not > > fit > > to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of > > nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem > > to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they > > don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more > > to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and > > they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But > > what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to > > gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have > > because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people > > are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social > > workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me > > keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going > > through > > school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you > > don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a > > small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. > > That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer > > me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things > > that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I > > want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such > > pride > > a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My > > mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me > > into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the > > school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and > > summer > > jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I > > am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, > > and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being > > the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be > > offered > > a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where > > medical > > experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering > > degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's > > interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough > > blind > > computer engineers, except those in the underground geek > > industry > > as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to > > communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so > > to speak. > > Ok, my rant is over. > > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > > Hello, > > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm > > going to > > say... > > It's the educational system that many of these problems come > > down > > to. We > > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to > > create > > a new > > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about > > disabled > > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask > > for > > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted > > person, I would > > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United > > States when > > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get > > leniency on > > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get > > free > > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so > > many > > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends > > with your > > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you > > are by > > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to > > read your > > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, > > you're able > > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for > > taking > > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled > > and that's > > what you're expected to do! > > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when > > you > > get 100% > > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people > > think > > it's > > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, > > (Stereotypically) > > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time > > to > > do school > > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and > > instructions > > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem > > with your > > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the > > web browser, > > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors > > class at a > > community college and you have good grades and you've written > > one > > of those > > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get > > the > > super > > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", > > you're able > > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies > > like Global > > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job > > programs > > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community > > college or > > state college you're given a guide through the school because > > you > > need a > > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person. > > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years > > of my life > > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing > > parents and > > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view > > of school, > > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was > > just that > > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped > > with the > > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's > > multiple theory > > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, > > but thank > > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, > > they just > > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so > > I'll get off > > education. > > My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all > > the > > above things. > > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings > > and my mom > > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind > > person needs to > > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years > > of your > > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > > > > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a > > tighter mold of > > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of > > anyone. > > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they > > don't need > > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme > > cases of > > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is > > put into > > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! > > It's like if > > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people > > stuck him > > into special ed just because he can't talk! > > Where would cosmology be? > > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their > > own way into > > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled > > that are > > fighting for these rights. > > > > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird > > it's > > not them > > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're > > weird. It's > > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through > > time the same > > way you are! > > > > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason > > and > > go for > > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and > > that's why > > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have > > probably not > > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the > > sighted > > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level > > jobs. > > > > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything > > other than > > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this > > world likes to > > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with > > the crowd. > > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered > > weird, those who > > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise > > above it are > > considered great. > > Thanks, > > > > Brandon Keith Biggs > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Arielle Silverman > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > > Hi Brandon, > > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind > > people > > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I > > have > > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what > > a > > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective > > tests > > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities > > or > > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and > > teachers, > > or > > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research > > showing > > that > > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, > > they > > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a > > "self-fulfilling > > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up > > "Pygmalian > > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids > > differently > > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too > > often > > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about > > how > > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in > > ways > > that make those assumptions come true. > > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was > > intrinsically > > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were > > actually > > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and > > mental > > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply > > too > > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities > > have > > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I > > have > > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop > > job, > > I > > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at > > minimum > > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my > > hands or > > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking > > and > > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is > > true > > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons > > for > > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that > > employers > > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many > > fields, > > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain > > experience > > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your > > foot in > > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For > > example, > > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, > > which > > means you are working under someone else who might not use > > accessible > > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within > > an > > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that > > aren't > > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or > > scripts > > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > > Arielle > > > > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > wrote: > > Hello, > > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like > > being mentally > > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can > > not do. We > > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like > > mentally > > disabled > > people really are mentally disabled. > > *That's a mouthful!* > > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under > > employed > > and > > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of > > them. But I'm > > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience > > that many > > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and > > often it's > > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are > > pressured into > > doing jobs they aren?셳 good at. > > > > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will > > in the > > first > > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and > > it's pretty > > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind > > person. If > > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just > > take a > > class at their community college and change their job. I believe > > SSI is > > for > > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back > > up when > > work > > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure > > jobs if I > > go > > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral > > issues, I'm not > > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > > Thanks, > > > > Brandon Keith Biggs > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Arielle Silverman > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > > Hi all, > > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating > > items > > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A > > customer > > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably > > hurt > > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches > > nationally, we > > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national > > policy. > > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll > > call her > > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman > > with > > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call > > her C). > > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know > > both S > > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. > > Apparently C > > is employed by a program for people with intellectual > > disabilities > > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. > > told > > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely > > menial > > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. > > However, I > > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. > > The > > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even > > had > > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > > I don't think I can really judge whether people with > > disabilities like > > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending > > their > > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge > > how > > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like > > C. > > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more > > freedom. > > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should > > be > > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that > > blindness > > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 10 17:29:37 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 12:29:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: UA, as in Arkansas? I'll be in Dallas! Thanks, Joshua On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: > R there any grad students in NAB? > I'm attending UA in Spring 4 MLS. R any of u going 2 Dallas? > Deb > > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 > On Jun 10, 2012 10:17 AM, "Joshua Lester" > wrote: > >> Wow! >> You'll be moving to Mr Lewis's headquarters. >> Speaking of which, I'm about to start a new thread about that! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: >> > My new boyfriend is from Georgia, so yeah, I have a good idea of >> > whuaft kind of foods he likes, sort of. :) >> > Beth >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Joshua Lester > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > > > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500 >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you >> > need, to >> > cook Southern food. >> > Where is your new boyfriend from? >> > Thanks, Joshua >> > >> > On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: >> > First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center >> > out of state. It took that to get me to learn daily living >> > skills. I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people. >> > You've got great points, Brandon. My boyfriend will have to do >> > daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills >> > teacher in his state that can help. I tried learning from a >> > daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with >> > never really told my parents they had to be patient. HE's lucky >> > his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone. >> > Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did. If >> > I >> > have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and >> > teach >> > myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some >> > of his favorites. But I'll be that patient with him and help >> > him >> > get on his feet. I'll probably have to learn something, but I >> > think living in the bay area won't be possible. I have to live >> > where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever. >> > I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh >> > yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale >> > store unlike Goodwill. >> > Beth >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > > > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700 >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Hello Beth, >> > let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have >> > enough >> > reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. >> > If you've >> > read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. >> > They shelter >> > you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor >> > definitely >> > has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to >> > school and get >> > that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my >> > graduation! >> > If money >> > is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can >> > fully >> > cover the >> > cost of school, minus housing and food. >> > Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people >> > that >> > I know >> > about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business >> > section and I >> > was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and >> > investing. I >> > don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to >> > really make >> > something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one >> > of those >> > things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking >> > and >> > socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about >> > how to find >> > banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how >> > to budget >> > effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food >> > and clothing, >> > and no one needs any help on running a family in school. >> > My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the >> > students that >> > come to her class have never had a communication class in their >> > life, yet >> > 100% of her students have had to communicate. >> > We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life >> > is I >> > guess...? >> > Personally I've found that those who have the most power over >> > people in this >> > world are those with money and those with exceptional >> > communication skills. >> > I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and >> > go >> > to >> > Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the >> > disability >> > center is the best in the west. They also give oober >> > scholarships >> > to those >> > students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand >> > in >> > scholarships*. >> > Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one >> > can get >> > renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every >> > part of >> > school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. >> > Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking >> > problem as we >> > are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's >> > on the >> > radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but >> > besides >> > that, the >> > Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any >> > general college >> > that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. >> > If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, >> > because not >> > only is the blindness support so great, but public >> > transportation >> > is the >> > best in the nation for both those places. >> > But enough on me pushing SF...! >> > Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose >> > of Daily >> > living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the >> > "Vista >> > Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become >> > independent. I >> > love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move >> > out on my >> > own when I was 18. >> > I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and >> > Justin >> > was saying >> > something about attending a program that also teaches living >> > skills. But my >> > teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those >> > who go >> > above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they >> > were taught >> > on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. >> > They expect >> > everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones >> > who >> > generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, >> > if I were >> > you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting >> > him know >> > that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take >> > care of >> > himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but >> > you >> > can let >> > him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than >> > it's time >> > to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want >> > to >> > be sent to >> > one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first >> > hand why he >> > must learn living skills in order to be free. >> > I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until >> > after your >> > Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life >> > to >> > live and >> > you should not be forced to live for two people which you would >> > be doing if >> > you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. >> > >> > I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to >> > prom with a >> > girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a >> > girlfriend till my >> > last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. >> > I didn't >> > have another till a little over a year after that. It was with >> > that second >> > girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the >> > worst things >> > since the invention of eyes. >> > If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear >> > yourself think, >> > let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed >> > together on >> > all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how >> > to dance by >> > your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. >> > The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but >> > the >> > dance >> > itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the >> > romantic part, >> > you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the >> > Blue >> > Danube at >> > the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have >> > a dance to >> > call themselves a dance? >> > anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when >> > you're >> > going through school than the social aspects. In college though, >> > guys become >> > much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just >> > because they >> > have lived and learned much more through their life. >> > Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature >> > enough in >> > some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature >> > when it came >> > to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should >> > never >> > expect >> > people to change. So part of my problem about having a small >> > social life is >> > that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still >> > much to >> > immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. >> > But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm >> > not socially >> > mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the >> > biggest >> > problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves >> > off as good >> > relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was >> > only >> > blind this >> > would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, >> > being able >> > to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one >> > wants to >> > make it in anything other than strictly working in something >> > like >> > the NFB or >> > Goodwill. >> > We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people >> > think and >> > how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted >> > people. Once >> > we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're >> > blind, we >> > should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we >> > are blind. >> > Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they >> > will look no >> > farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being >> > disabled is >> > repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do >> > anything in >> > the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a >> > sighted person >> > first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one >> > is able to >> > make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not >> > repulsive and >> > weird. >> > Thank you, >> > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Beth >> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and >> > mentally >> > ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've >> > been >> > called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he >> > could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all >> > kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was >> > told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a >> > genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, >> > superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then >> > again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no >> > roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that >> > with the right support and good friends around me, I could >> > thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, >> > and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own >> > children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens >> > of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good >> > days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a >> > fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the >> > rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could >> > get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with >> > rapids >> > that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest >> > "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages >> > thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that >> > blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. >> > My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly >> > teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I >> > struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off >> > of, >> > and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage >> > fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck >> > paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep >> > track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer >> > for >> > all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's >> > going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What >> > if >> > I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry >> > Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare >> > surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he >> > won't >> > have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel >> > can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. >> > I >> > was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with >> > him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just >> > makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a >> > meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on >> > Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the >> > weird part is that his parents are open to us having a >> > relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not >> > limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer >> > people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live >> > together successfully with all the right supports, and if we >> > can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. >> > But >> > I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to >> > manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to >> > my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason >> > there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old >> > mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. >> > My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so >> > good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like >> > how >> > to go back and look at your payment history every time if you >> > get >> > suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, >> > you >> > have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I >> > may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt >> > Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this >> > month >> > because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to >> > do, >> > I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless >> > you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about >> > disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to >> > learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, >> > blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the >> > parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their >> > flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the >> > same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We >> > wait >> > on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. >> > Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't >> > necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca >> > Salt >> > in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a >> > spoiled >> > literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen >> > Keller >> > was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was >> > deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are >> > ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there >> > were >> > no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. >> > I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to >> > me--hence >> > the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs >> > and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems >> > like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long >> > email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much >> > more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my >> > dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But >> > thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a >> > text >> > message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like >> > yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible >> > phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my >> > ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which >> > is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my >> > friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to >> > change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a >> > good >> > while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I >> > would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan >> > to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job >> > helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim >> > advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services >> > that >> > may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with >> > human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if >> > there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd >> > like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but >> > where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and >> > a >> > good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I >> > have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or >> > through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. >> > To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job >> > helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social >> > work >> > degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to >> > advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, >> > "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not >> > fit >> > to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of >> > nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem >> > to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they >> > don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more >> > to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and >> > they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But >> > what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to >> > gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have >> > because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people >> > are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social >> > workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me >> > keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going >> > through >> > school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you >> > don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a >> > small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. >> > That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer >> > me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things >> > that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I >> > want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such >> > pride >> > a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My >> > mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me >> > into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the >> > school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and >> > summer >> > jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I >> > am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, >> > and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being >> > the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be >> > offered >> > a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where >> > medical >> > experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering >> > degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's >> > interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough >> > blind >> > computer engineers, except those in the underground geek >> > industry >> > as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to >> > communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so >> > to speak. >> > Ok, my rant is over. >> > Beth >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > > > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700 >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Hello, >> > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm >> > going to >> > say... >> > It's the educational system that many of these problems come >> > down >> > to. We >> > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to >> > create >> > a new >> > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about >> > disabled >> > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask >> > for >> > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! >> > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted >> > person, I would >> > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United >> > States when >> > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get >> > leniency on >> > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get >> > free >> > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so >> > many >> > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for >> > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends >> > with your >> > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you >> > are by >> > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to >> > read your >> > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, >> > you're able >> > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for >> > taking >> > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled >> > and that's >> > what you're expected to do! >> > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when >> > you >> > get 100% >> > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people >> > think >> > it's >> > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, >> > (Stereotypically) >> > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time >> > to >> > do school >> > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and >> > instructions >> > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem >> > with your >> > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the >> > web browser, >> > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors >> > class at a >> > community college and you have good grades and you've written >> > one >> > of those >> > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get >> > the >> > super >> > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", >> > you're able >> > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies >> > like Global >> > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job >> > programs >> > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community >> > college or >> > state college you're given a guide through the school because >> > you >> > need a >> > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person. >> > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... >> > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years >> > of my life >> > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing >> > parents and >> > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view >> > of school, >> > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was >> > just that >> > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped >> > with the >> > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. >> > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's >> > multiple theory >> > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, >> > but thank >> > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, >> > they just >> > need to know how they learn and learn that way! >> > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so >> > I'll get off >> > education. >> > My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all >> > the >> > above things. >> > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings >> > and my mom >> > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind >> > person needs to >> > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years >> > of your >> > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. >> > >> > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a >> > tighter mold of >> > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of >> > anyone. >> > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they >> > don't need >> > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme >> > cases of >> > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is >> > put into >> > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! >> > It's like if >> > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people >> > stuck him >> > into special ed just because he can't talk! >> > Where would cosmology be? >> > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their >> > own way into >> > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled >> > that are >> > fighting for these rights. >> > >> > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird >> > it's >> > not them >> > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're >> > weird. It's >> > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through >> > time the same >> > way you are! >> > >> > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason >> > and >> > go for >> > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and >> > that's why >> > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. >> > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have >> > probably not >> > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the >> > sighted >> > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level >> > jobs. >> > >> > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything >> > other than >> > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this >> > world likes to >> > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with >> > the crowd. >> > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered >> > weird, those who >> > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise >> > above it are >> > considered great. >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Arielle Silverman >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Hi Brandon, >> > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind >> > people >> > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I >> > have >> > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. >> > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what >> > a >> > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective >> > tests >> > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for >> > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities >> > or >> > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and >> > teachers, >> > or >> > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research >> > showing >> > that >> > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, >> > they >> > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a >> > "self-fulfilling >> > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up >> > "Pygmalian >> > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are >> > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids >> > differently >> > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up >> > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too >> > often >> > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about >> > how >> > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in >> > ways >> > that make those assumptions come true. >> > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more >> > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was >> > intrinsically >> > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were >> > actually >> > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and >> > mental >> > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task >> > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply >> > too >> > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities >> > have >> > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I >> > have >> > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop >> > job, >> > I >> > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at >> > minimum >> > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my >> > hands or >> > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just >> > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking >> > and >> > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills >> > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. >> > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is >> > true >> > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the >> > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons >> > for >> > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that >> > employers >> > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many >> > fields, >> > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain >> > experience >> > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with >> > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your >> > foot in >> > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For >> > example, >> > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, >> > which >> > means you are working under someone else who might not use >> > accessible >> > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without >> > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory >> > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within >> > an >> > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that >> > aren't >> > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very >> > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or >> > scripts >> > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. >> > Arielle >> > >> > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > > wrote: >> > Hello, >> > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like >> > being mentally >> > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can >> > not do. We >> > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like >> > mentally >> > disabled >> > people really are mentally disabled. >> > *That's a mouthful!* >> > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under >> > employed >> > and >> > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of >> > them. But I'm >> > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience >> > that many >> > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and >> > often it's >> > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are >> > pressured into >> > doing jobs they aren?셳 good at. >> > >> > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will >> > in the >> > first >> > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and >> > it's pretty >> > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind >> > person. If >> > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just >> > take a >> > class at their community college and change their job. I believe >> > SSI is >> > for >> > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back >> > up when >> > work >> > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure >> > jobs if I >> > go >> > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral >> > issues, I'm not >> > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Arielle Silverman >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Hi all, >> > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating >> > items >> > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A >> > customer >> > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably >> > hurt >> > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very >> > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches >> > nationally, we >> > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national >> > policy. >> > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll >> > call her >> > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman >> > with >> > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call >> > her C). >> > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know >> > both S >> > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. >> > Apparently C >> > is employed by a program for people with intellectual >> > disabilities >> > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. >> > told >> > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely >> > menial >> > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. >> > However, I >> > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived >> > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. >> > The >> > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even >> > had >> > independent access to the money she earned at her job. >> > I don't think I can really judge whether people with >> > disabilities like >> > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending >> > their >> > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge >> > how >> > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like >> > C. >> > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and >> > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more >> > freedom. >> > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should >> > be >> > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that >> > blindness >> > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 17:35:33 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 10:35:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No sorry. UA UNIVERSITY OF AZ. Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 On Jun 10, 2012 10:31 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: > UA, as in Arkansas? > I'll be in Dallas! > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: > > R there any grad students in NAB? > > I'm attending UA in Spring 4 MLS. R any of u going 2 Dallas? > > Deb > > > > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 > > On Jun 10, 2012 10:17 AM, "Joshua Lester" < > jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> > > wrote: > > > >> Wow! > >> You'll be moving to Mr Lewis's headquarters. > >> Speaking of which, I'm about to start a new thread about that! > >> Blessings, Joshua > >> > >> On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > >> > My new boyfriend is from Georgia, so yeah, I have a good idea of > >> > whuaft kind of foods he likes, sort of. :) > >> > Beth > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Joshua Lester >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500 > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> > Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you > >> > need, to > >> > cook Southern food. > >> > Where is your new boyfriend from? > >> > Thanks, Joshua > >> > > >> > On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > >> > First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center > >> > out of state. It took that to get me to learn daily living > >> > skills. I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people. > >> > You've got great points, Brandon. My boyfriend will have to do > >> > daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills > >> > teacher in his state that can help. I tried learning from a > >> > daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with > >> > never really told my parents they had to be patient. HE's lucky > >> > his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone. > >> > Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did. If > >> > I > >> > have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and > >> > teach > >> > myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some > >> > of his favorites. But I'll be that patient with him and help > >> > him > >> > get on his feet. I'll probably have to learn something, but I > >> > think living in the bay area won't be possible. I have to live > >> > where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever. > >> > I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh > >> > yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale > >> > store unlike Goodwill. > >> > Beth > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700 > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> > Hello Beth, > >> > let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have > >> > enough > >> > reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. > >> > If you've > >> > read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. > >> > They shelter > >> > you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor > >> > definitely > >> > has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to > >> > school and get > >> > that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my > >> > graduation! > >> > If money > >> > is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can > >> > fully > >> > cover the > >> > cost of school, minus housing and food. > >> > Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people > >> > that > >> > I know > >> > about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business > >> > section and I > >> > was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and > >> > investing. I > >> > don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to > >> > really make > >> > something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one > >> > of those > >> > things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking > >> > and > >> > socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about > >> > how to find > >> > banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how > >> > to budget > >> > effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food > >> > and clothing, > >> > and no one needs any help on running a family in school. > >> > My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the > >> > students that > >> > come to her class have never had a communication class in their > >> > life, yet > >> > 100% of her students have had to communicate. > >> > We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life > >> > is I > >> > guess...? > >> > Personally I've found that those who have the most power over > >> > people in this > >> > world are those with money and those with exceptional > >> > communication skills. > >> > I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and > >> > go > >> > to > >> > Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the > >> > disability > >> > center is the best in the west. They also give oober > >> > scholarships > >> > to those > >> > students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand > >> > in > >> > scholarships*. > >> > Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one > >> > can get > >> > renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every > >> > part of > >> > school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. > >> > Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking > >> > problem as we > >> > are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's > >> > on the > >> > radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but > >> > besides > >> > that, the > >> > Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any > >> > general college > >> > that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. > >> > If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, > >> > because not > >> > only is the blindness support so great, but public > >> > transportation > >> > is the > >> > best in the nation for both those places. > >> > But enough on me pushing SF...! > >> > Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose > >> > of Daily > >> > living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the > >> > "Vista > >> > Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become > >> > independent. I > >> > love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move > >> > out on my > >> > own when I was 18. > >> > I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and > >> > Justin > >> > was saying > >> > something about attending a program that also teaches living > >> > skills. But my > >> > teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those > >> > who go > >> > above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they > >> > were taught > >> > on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. > >> > They expect > >> > everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones > >> > who > >> > generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, > >> > if I were > >> > you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting > >> > him know > >> > that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take > >> > care of > >> > himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but > >> > you > >> > can let > >> > him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than > >> > it's time > >> > to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want > >> > to > >> > be sent to > >> > one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first > >> > hand why he > >> > must learn living skills in order to be free. > >> > I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until > >> > after your > >> > Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life > >> > to > >> > live and > >> > you should not be forced to live for two people which you would > >> > be doing if > >> > you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. > >> > > >> > I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to > >> > prom with a > >> > girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a > >> > girlfriend till my > >> > last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. > >> > I didn't > >> > have another till a little over a year after that. It was with > >> > that second > >> > girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the > >> > worst things > >> > since the invention of eyes. > >> > If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear > >> > yourself think, > >> > let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed > >> > together on > >> > all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how > >> > to dance by > >> > your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. > >> > The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but > >> > the > >> > dance > >> > itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the > >> > romantic part, > >> > you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the > >> > Blue > >> > Danube at > >> > the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have > >> > a dance to > >> > call themselves a dance? > >> > anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when > >> > you're > >> > going through school than the social aspects. In college though, > >> > guys become > >> > much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just > >> > because they > >> > have lived and learned much more through their life. > >> > Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature > >> > enough in > >> > some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature > >> > when it came > >> > to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should > >> > never > >> > expect > >> > people to change. So part of my problem about having a small > >> > social life is > >> > that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still > >> > much to > >> > immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. > >> > But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm > >> > not socially > >> > mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the > >> > biggest > >> > problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves > >> > off as good > >> > relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was > >> > only > >> > blind this > >> > would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, > >> > being able > >> > to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one > >> > wants to > >> > make it in anything other than strictly working in something > >> > like > >> > the NFB or > >> > Goodwill. > >> > We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people > >> > think and > >> > how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted > >> > people. Once > >> > we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're > >> > blind, we > >> > should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we > >> > are blind. > >> > Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they > >> > will look no > >> > farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being > >> > disabled is > >> > repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do > >> > anything in > >> > the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a > >> > sighted person > >> > first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one > >> > is able to > >> > make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not > >> > repulsive and > >> > weird. > >> > Thank you, > >> > > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Beth > >> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> > Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and > >> > mentally > >> > ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've > >> > been > >> > called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he > >> > could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all > >> > kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was > >> > told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a > >> > genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, > >> > superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then > >> > again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no > >> > roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that > >> > with the right support and good friends around me, I could > >> > thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, > >> > and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own > >> > children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens > >> > of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good > >> > days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a > >> > fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the > >> > rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could > >> > get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with > >> > rapids > >> > that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest > >> > "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages > >> > thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that > >> > blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. > >> > My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly > >> > teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I > >> > struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off > >> > of, > >> > and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage > >> > fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck > >> > paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep > >> > track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer > >> > for > >> > all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's > >> > going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What > >> > if > >> > I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry > >> > Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare > >> > surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he > >> > won't > >> > have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel > >> > can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. > >> > I > >> > was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with > >> > him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just > >> > makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a > >> > meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on > >> > Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the > >> > weird part is that his parents are open to us having a > >> > relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not > >> > limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer > >> > people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live > >> > together successfully with all the right supports, and if we > >> > can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. > >> > But > >> > I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to > >> > manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to > >> > my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason > >> > there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old > >> > mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. > >> > My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so > >> > good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like > >> > how > >> > to go back and look at your payment history every time if you > >> > get > >> > suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, > >> > you > >> > have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I > >> > may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt > >> > Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this > >> > month > >> > because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to > >> > do, > >> > I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless > >> > you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about > >> > disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to > >> > learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, > >> > blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the > >> > parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their > >> > flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the > >> > same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We > >> > wait > >> > on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. > >> > Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't > >> > necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca > >> > Salt > >> > in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a > >> > spoiled > >> > literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen > >> > Keller > >> > was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was > >> > deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are > >> > ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there > >> > were > >> > no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. > >> > I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to > >> > me--hence > >> > the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs > >> > and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems > >> > like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long > >> > email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much > >> > more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my > >> > dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But > >> > thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a > >> > text > >> > message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like > >> > yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible > >> > phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my > >> > ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which > >> > is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my > >> > friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to > >> > change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a > >> > good > >> > while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I > >> > would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan > >> > to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job > >> > helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim > >> > advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services > >> > that > >> > may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with > >> > human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if > >> > there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd > >> > like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but > >> > where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and > >> > a > >> > good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I > >> > have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or > >> > through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. > >> > To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job > >> > helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social > >> > work > >> > degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to > >> > advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, > >> > "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not > >> > fit > >> > to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of > >> > nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem > >> > to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they > >> > don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more > >> > to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and > >> > they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But > >> > what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to > >> > gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have > >> > because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people > >> > are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social > >> > workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me > >> > keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going > >> > through > >> > school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you > >> > don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a > >> > small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. > >> > That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer > >> > me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things > >> > that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I > >> > want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such > >> > pride > >> > a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My > >> > mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me > >> > into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the > >> > school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and > >> > summer > >> > jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I > >> > am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, > >> > and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being > >> > the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be > >> > offered > >> > a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where > >> > medical > >> > experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering > >> > degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's > >> > interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough > >> > blind > >> > computer engineers, except those in the underground geek > >> > industry > >> > as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to > >> > communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so > >> > to speak. > >> > Ok, my rant is over. > >> > Beth > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700 > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> > Hello, > >> > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm > >> > going to > >> > say... > >> > It's the educational system that many of these problems come > >> > down > >> > to. We > >> > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to > >> > create > >> > a new > >> > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about > >> > disabled > >> > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask > >> > for > >> > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > >> > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted > >> > person, I would > >> > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United > >> > States when > >> > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get > >> > leniency on > >> > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get > >> > free > >> > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so > >> > many > >> > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > >> > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends > >> > with your > >> > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you > >> > are by > >> > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to > >> > read your > >> > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, > >> > you're able > >> > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for > >> > taking > >> > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled > >> > and that's > >> > what you're expected to do! > >> > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when > >> > you > >> > get 100% > >> > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people > >> > think > >> > it's > >> > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, > >> > (Stereotypically) > >> > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time > >> > to > >> > do school > >> > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and > >> > instructions > >> > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem > >> > with your > >> > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the > >> > web browser, > >> > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors > >> > class at a > >> > community college and you have good grades and you've written > >> > one > >> > of those > >> > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get > >> > the > >> > super > >> > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", > >> > you're able > >> > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies > >> > like Global > >> > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job > >> > programs > >> > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community > >> > college or > >> > state college you're given a guide through the school because > >> > you > >> > need a > >> > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person. > >> > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > >> > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years > >> > of my life > >> > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing > >> > parents and > >> > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view > >> > of school, > >> > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was > >> > just that > >> > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped > >> > with the > >> > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > >> > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's > >> > multiple theory > >> > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, > >> > but thank > >> > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, > >> > they just > >> > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > >> > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so > >> > I'll get off > >> > education. > >> > My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all > >> > the > >> > above things. > >> > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings > >> > and my mom > >> > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind > >> > person needs to > >> > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years > >> > of your > >> > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > >> > > >> > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a > >> > tighter mold of > >> > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of > >> > anyone. > >> > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they > >> > don't need > >> > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme > >> > cases of > >> > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is > >> > put into > >> > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! > >> > It's like if > >> > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people > >> > stuck him > >> > into special ed just because he can't talk! > >> > Where would cosmology be? > >> > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their > >> > own way into > >> > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled > >> > that are > >> > fighting for these rights. > >> > > >> > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird > >> > it's > >> > not them > >> > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're > >> > weird. It's > >> > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through > >> > time the same > >> > way you are! > >> > > >> > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason > >> > and > >> > go for > >> > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and > >> > that's why > >> > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > >> > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have > >> > probably not > >> > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the > >> > sighted > >> > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level > >> > jobs. > >> > > >> > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything > >> > other than > >> > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this > >> > world likes to > >> > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with > >> > the crowd. > >> > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered > >> > weird, those who > >> > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise > >> > above it are > >> > considered great. > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Arielle Silverman > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> > Hi Brandon, > >> > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind > >> > people > >> > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I > >> > have > >> > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > >> > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what > >> > a > >> > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective > >> > tests > >> > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > >> > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities > >> > or > >> > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and > >> > teachers, > >> > or > >> > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research > >> > showing > >> > that > >> > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, > >> > they > >> > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a > >> > "self-fulfilling > >> > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up > >> > "Pygmalian > >> > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > >> > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids > >> > differently > >> > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > >> > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too > >> > often > >> > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about > >> > how > >> > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in > >> > ways > >> > that make those assumptions come true. > >> > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > >> > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was > >> > intrinsically > >> > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were > >> > actually > >> > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and > >> > mental > >> > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > >> > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply > >> > too > >> > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities > >> > have > >> > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I > >> > have > >> > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop > >> > job, > >> > I > >> > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at > >> > minimum > >> > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my > >> > hands or > >> > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > >> > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking > >> > and > >> > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > >> > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > >> > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is > >> > true > >> > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > >> > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons > >> > for > >> > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that > >> > employers > >> > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many > >> > fields, > >> > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain > >> > experience > >> > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > >> > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your > >> > foot in > >> > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For > >> > example, > >> > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, > >> > which > >> > means you are working under someone else who might not use > >> > accessible > >> > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > >> > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > >> > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within > >> > an > >> > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that > >> > aren't > >> > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > >> > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or > >> > scripts > >> > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > >> > Arielle > >> > > >> > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs >> > wrote: > >> > Hello, > >> > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like > >> > being mentally > >> > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can > >> > not do. We > >> > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like > >> > mentally > >> > disabled > >> > people really are mentally disabled. > >> > *That's a mouthful!* > >> > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under > >> > employed > >> > and > >> > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of > >> > them. But I'm > >> > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience > >> > that many > >> > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and > >> > often it's > >> > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are > >> > pressured into > >> > doing jobs they aren?셳 good at. > >> > > >> > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will > >> > in the > >> > first > >> > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and > >> > it's pretty > >> > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind > >> > person. If > >> > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just > >> > take a > >> > class at their community college and change their job. I believe > >> > SSI is > >> > for > >> > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back > >> > up when > >> > work > >> > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure > >> > jobs if I > >> > go > >> > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral > >> > issues, I'm not > >> > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Arielle Silverman > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> > Hi all, > >> > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating > >> > items > >> > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A > >> > customer > >> > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably > >> > hurt > >> > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > >> > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches > >> > nationally, we > >> > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national > >> > policy. > >> > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll > >> > call her > >> > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman > >> > with > >> > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call > >> > her C). > >> > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know > >> > both S > >> > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. > >> > Apparently C > >> > is employed by a program for people with intellectual > >> > disabilities > >> > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. > >> > told > >> > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely > >> > menial > >> > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. > >> > However, I > >> > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > >> > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. > >> > The > >> > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even > >> > had > >> > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > >> > I don't think I can really judge whether people with > >> > disabilities like > >> > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending > >> > their > >> > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge > >> > how > >> > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like > >> > C. > >> > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > >> > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more > >> > freedom. > >> > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should > >> > be > >> > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that > >> > blindness > >> > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 10 17:39:18 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 12:39:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! What's your major? I'm not going to grad school, but I'm getting my degree in Behavioral Health, in May of 2013. Thanks, Joshua On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: > No sorry. UA UNIVERSITY OF AZ. > > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 > On Jun 10, 2012 10:31 AM, "Joshua Lester" > wrote: > >> UA, as in Arkansas? >> I'll be in Dallas! >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: >> > R there any grad students in NAB? >> > I'm attending UA in Spring 4 MLS. R any of u going 2 Dallas? >> > Deb >> > >> > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 >> > On Jun 10, 2012 10:17 AM, "Joshua Lester" < >> jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Wow! >> >> You'll be moving to Mr Lewis's headquarters. >> >> Speaking of which, I'm about to start a new thread about that! >> >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> >> On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: >> >> > My new boyfriend is from Georgia, so yeah, I have a good idea of >> >> > whuaft kind of foods he likes, sort of. :) >> >> > Beth >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: Joshua Lester > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > > >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500 >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you >> >> > need, to >> >> > cook Southern food. >> >> > Where is your new boyfriend from? >> >> > Thanks, Joshua >> >> > >> >> > On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: >> >> > First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center >> >> > out of state. It took that to get me to learn daily living >> >> > skills. I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people. >> >> > You've got great points, Brandon. My boyfriend will have to do >> >> > daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills >> >> > teacher in his state that can help. I tried learning from a >> >> > daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with >> >> > never really told my parents they had to be patient. HE's lucky >> >> > his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone. >> >> > Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did. If >> >> > I >> >> > have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and >> >> > teach >> >> > myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some >> >> > of his favorites. But I'll be that patient with him and help >> >> > him >> >> > get on his feet. I'll probably have to learn something, but I >> >> > think living in the bay area won't be possible. I have to live >> >> > where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever. >> >> > I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh >> >> > yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale >> >> > store unlike Goodwill. >> >> > Beth >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > > >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700 >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hello Beth, >> >> > let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have >> >> > enough >> >> > reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. >> >> > If you've >> >> > read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. >> >> > They shelter >> >> > you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor >> >> > definitely >> >> > has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to >> >> > school and get >> >> > that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my >> >> > graduation! >> >> > If money >> >> > is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can >> >> > fully >> >> > cover the >> >> > cost of school, minus housing and food. >> >> > Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people >> >> > that >> >> > I know >> >> > about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business >> >> > section and I >> >> > was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and >> >> > investing. I >> >> > don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to >> >> > really make >> >> > something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one >> >> > of those >> >> > things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking >> >> > and >> >> > socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about >> >> > how to find >> >> > banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how >> >> > to budget >> >> > effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food >> >> > and clothing, >> >> > and no one needs any help on running a family in school. >> >> > My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the >> >> > students that >> >> > come to her class have never had a communication class in their >> >> > life, yet >> >> > 100% of her students have had to communicate. >> >> > We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life >> >> > is I >> >> > guess...? >> >> > Personally I've found that those who have the most power over >> >> > people in this >> >> > world are those with money and those with exceptional >> >> > communication skills. >> >> > I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and >> >> > go >> >> > to >> >> > Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the >> >> > disability >> >> > center is the best in the west. They also give oober >> >> > scholarships >> >> > to those >> >> > students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand >> >> > in >> >> > scholarships*. >> >> > Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one >> >> > can get >> >> > renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every >> >> > part of >> >> > school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. >> >> > Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking >> >> > problem as we >> >> > are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's >> >> > on the >> >> > radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but >> >> > besides >> >> > that, the >> >> > Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any >> >> > general college >> >> > that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. >> >> > If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, >> >> > because not >> >> > only is the blindness support so great, but public >> >> > transportation >> >> > is the >> >> > best in the nation for both those places. >> >> > But enough on me pushing SF...! >> >> > Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose >> >> > of Daily >> >> > living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the >> >> > "Vista >> >> > Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become >> >> > independent. I >> >> > love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move >> >> > out on my >> >> > own when I was 18. >> >> > I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and >> >> > Justin >> >> > was saying >> >> > something about attending a program that also teaches living >> >> > skills. But my >> >> > teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those >> >> > who go >> >> > above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they >> >> > were taught >> >> > on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. >> >> > They expect >> >> > everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones >> >> > who >> >> > generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, >> >> > if I were >> >> > you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting >> >> > him know >> >> > that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take >> >> > care of >> >> > himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but >> >> > you >> >> > can let >> >> > him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than >> >> > it's time >> >> > to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want >> >> > to >> >> > be sent to >> >> > one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first >> >> > hand why he >> >> > must learn living skills in order to be free. >> >> > I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until >> >> > after your >> >> > Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life >> >> > to >> >> > live and >> >> > you should not be forced to live for two people which you would >> >> > be doing if >> >> > you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. >> >> > >> >> > I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to >> >> > prom with a >> >> > girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a >> >> > girlfriend till my >> >> > last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. >> >> > I didn't >> >> > have another till a little over a year after that. It was with >> >> > that second >> >> > girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the >> >> > worst things >> >> > since the invention of eyes. >> >> > If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear >> >> > yourself think, >> >> > let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed >> >> > together on >> >> > all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how >> >> > to dance by >> >> > your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. >> >> > The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but >> >> > the >> >> > dance >> >> > itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the >> >> > romantic part, >> >> > you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the >> >> > Blue >> >> > Danube at >> >> > the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have >> >> > a dance to >> >> > call themselves a dance? >> >> > anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when >> >> > you're >> >> > going through school than the social aspects. In college though, >> >> > guys become >> >> > much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just >> >> > because they >> >> > have lived and learned much more through their life. >> >> > Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature >> >> > enough in >> >> > some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature >> >> > when it came >> >> > to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should >> >> > never >> >> > expect >> >> > people to change. So part of my problem about having a small >> >> > social life is >> >> > that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still >> >> > much to >> >> > immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. >> >> > But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm >> >> > not socially >> >> > mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the >> >> > biggest >> >> > problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves >> >> > off as good >> >> > relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was >> >> > only >> >> > blind this >> >> > would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, >> >> > being able >> >> > to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one >> >> > wants to >> >> > make it in anything other than strictly working in something >> >> > like >> >> > the NFB or >> >> > Goodwill. >> >> > We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people >> >> > think and >> >> > how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted >> >> > people. Once >> >> > we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're >> >> > blind, we >> >> > should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we >> >> > are blind. >> >> > Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they >> >> > will look no >> >> > farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being >> >> > disabled is >> >> > repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do >> >> > anything in >> >> > the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a >> >> > sighted person >> >> > first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one >> >> > is able to >> >> > make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not >> >> > repulsive and >> >> > weird. >> >> > Thank you, >> >> > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Beth >> >> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and >> >> > mentally >> >> > ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've >> >> > been >> >> > called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he >> >> > could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all >> >> > kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was >> >> > told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a >> >> > genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, >> >> > superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then >> >> > again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no >> >> > roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that >> >> > with the right support and good friends around me, I could >> >> > thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, >> >> > and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own >> >> > children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens >> >> > of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good >> >> > days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a >> >> > fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the >> >> > rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could >> >> > get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with >> >> > rapids >> >> > that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest >> >> > "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages >> >> > thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that >> >> > blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. >> >> > My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly >> >> > teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I >> >> > struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off >> >> > of, >> >> > and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage >> >> > fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck >> >> > paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep >> >> > track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer >> >> > for >> >> > all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's >> >> > going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What >> >> > if >> >> > I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry >> >> > Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare >> >> > surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he >> >> > won't >> >> > have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel >> >> > can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. >> >> > I >> >> > was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with >> >> > him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just >> >> > makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a >> >> > meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on >> >> > Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the >> >> > weird part is that his parents are open to us having a >> >> > relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not >> >> > limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer >> >> > people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live >> >> > together successfully with all the right supports, and if we >> >> > can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. >> >> > But >> >> > I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to >> >> > manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to >> >> > my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason >> >> > there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old >> >> > mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. >> >> > My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so >> >> > good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like >> >> > how >> >> > to go back and look at your payment history every time if you >> >> > get >> >> > suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, >> >> > you >> >> > have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I >> >> > may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt >> >> > Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this >> >> > month >> >> > because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to >> >> > do, >> >> > I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless >> >> > you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about >> >> > disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to >> >> > learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, >> >> > blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the >> >> > parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their >> >> > flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the >> >> > same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We >> >> > wait >> >> > on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. >> >> > Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't >> >> > necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca >> >> > Salt >> >> > in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a >> >> > spoiled >> >> > literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen >> >> > Keller >> >> > was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was >> >> > deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are >> >> > ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there >> >> > were >> >> > no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. >> >> > I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to >> >> > me--hence >> >> > the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs >> >> > and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems >> >> > like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long >> >> > email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much >> >> > more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my >> >> > dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But >> >> > thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a >> >> > text >> >> > message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like >> >> > yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible >> >> > phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my >> >> > ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which >> >> > is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my >> >> > friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to >> >> > change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a >> >> > good >> >> > while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I >> >> > would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan >> >> > to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job >> >> > helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim >> >> > advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services >> >> > that >> >> > may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with >> >> > human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if >> >> > there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd >> >> > like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but >> >> > where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and >> >> > a >> >> > good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I >> >> > have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or >> >> > through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. >> >> > To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job >> >> > helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social >> >> > work >> >> > degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to >> >> > advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, >> >> > "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not >> >> > fit >> >> > to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of >> >> > nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem >> >> > to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they >> >> > don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more >> >> > to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and >> >> > they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But >> >> > what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to >> >> > gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have >> >> > because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people >> >> > are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social >> >> > workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me >> >> > keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going >> >> > through >> >> > school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you >> >> > don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a >> >> > small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. >> >> > That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer >> >> > me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things >> >> > that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I >> >> > want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such >> >> > pride >> >> > a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My >> >> > mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me >> >> > into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the >> >> > school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and >> >> > summer >> >> > jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I >> >> > am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, >> >> > and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being >> >> > the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be >> >> > offered >> >> > a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where >> >> > medical >> >> > experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering >> >> > degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's >> >> > interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough >> >> > blind >> >> > computer engineers, except those in the underground geek >> >> > industry >> >> > as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to >> >> > communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so >> >> > to speak. >> >> > Ok, my rant is over. >> >> > Beth >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > > >> > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700 >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hello, >> >> > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm >> >> > going to >> >> > say... >> >> > It's the educational system that many of these problems come >> >> > down >> >> > to. We >> >> > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to >> >> > create >> >> > a new >> >> > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about >> >> > disabled >> >> > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask >> >> > for >> >> > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! >> >> > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted >> >> > person, I would >> >> > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United >> >> > States when >> >> > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get >> >> > leniency on >> >> > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get >> >> > free >> >> > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so >> >> > many >> >> > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for >> >> > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends >> >> > with your >> >> > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you >> >> > are by >> >> > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to >> >> > read your >> >> > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, >> >> > you're able >> >> > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for >> >> > taking >> >> > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled >> >> > and that's >> >> > what you're expected to do! >> >> > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when >> >> > you >> >> > get 100% >> >> > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people >> >> > think >> >> > it's >> >> > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, >> >> > (Stereotypically) >> >> > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time >> >> > to >> >> > do school >> >> > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and >> >> > instructions >> >> > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem >> >> > with your >> >> > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the >> >> > web browser, >> >> > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors >> >> > class at a >> >> > community college and you have good grades and you've written >> >> > one >> >> > of those >> >> > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get >> >> > the >> >> > super >> >> > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", >> >> > you're able >> >> > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies >> >> > like Global >> >> > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job >> >> > programs >> >> > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community >> >> > college or >> >> > state college you're given a guide through the school because >> >> > you >> >> > need a >> >> > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person. >> >> > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... >> >> > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years >> >> > of my life >> >> > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing >> >> > parents and >> >> > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view >> >> > of school, >> >> > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was >> >> > just that >> >> > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped >> >> > with the >> >> > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. >> >> > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's >> >> > multiple theory >> >> > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, >> >> > but thank >> >> > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, >> >> > they just >> >> > need to know how they learn and learn that way! >> >> > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so >> >> > I'll get off >> >> > education. >> >> > My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all >> >> > the >> >> > above things. >> >> > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings >> >> > and my mom >> >> > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind >> >> > person needs to >> >> > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years >> >> > of your >> >> > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. >> >> > >> >> > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a >> >> > tighter mold of >> >> > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of >> >> > anyone. >> >> > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they >> >> > don't need >> >> > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme >> >> > cases of >> >> > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is >> >> > put into >> >> > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! >> >> > It's like if >> >> > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people >> >> > stuck him >> >> > into special ed just because he can't talk! >> >> > Where would cosmology be? >> >> > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their >> >> > own way into >> >> > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled >> >> > that are >> >> > fighting for these rights. >> >> > >> >> > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird >> >> > it's >> >> > not them >> >> > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're >> >> > weird. It's >> >> > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through >> >> > time the same >> >> > way you are! >> >> > >> >> > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason >> >> > and >> >> > go for >> >> > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and >> >> > that's why >> >> > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. >> >> > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have >> >> > probably not >> >> > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the >> >> > sighted >> >> > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level >> >> > jobs. >> >> > >> >> > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything >> >> > other than >> >> > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this >> >> > world likes to >> >> > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with >> >> > the crowd. >> >> > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered >> >> > weird, those who >> >> > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise >> >> > above it are >> >> > considered great. >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Arielle Silverman >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hi Brandon, >> >> > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind >> >> > people >> >> > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I >> >> > have >> >> > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. >> >> > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what >> >> > a >> >> > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective >> >> > tests >> >> > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for >> >> > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities >> >> > or >> >> > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and >> >> > teachers, >> >> > or >> >> > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research >> >> > showing >> >> > that >> >> > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, >> >> > they >> >> > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a >> >> > "self-fulfilling >> >> > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up >> >> > "Pygmalian >> >> > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are >> >> > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids >> >> > differently >> >> > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up >> >> > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too >> >> > often >> >> > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about >> >> > how >> >> > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in >> >> > ways >> >> > that make those assumptions come true. >> >> > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more >> >> > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was >> >> > intrinsically >> >> > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were >> >> > actually >> >> > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and >> >> > mental >> >> > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task >> >> > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply >> >> > too >> >> > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities >> >> > have >> >> > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I >> >> > have >> >> > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop >> >> > job, >> >> > I >> >> > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at >> >> > minimum >> >> > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my >> >> > hands or >> >> > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just >> >> > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking >> >> > and >> >> > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills >> >> > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. >> >> > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is >> >> > true >> >> > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the >> >> > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons >> >> > for >> >> > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that >> >> > employers >> >> > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many >> >> > fields, >> >> > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain >> >> > experience >> >> > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with >> >> > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your >> >> > foot in >> >> > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For >> >> > example, >> >> > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, >> >> > which >> >> > means you are working under someone else who might not use >> >> > accessible >> >> > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without >> >> > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory >> >> > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within >> >> > an >> >> > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that >> >> > aren't >> >> > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very >> >> > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or >> >> > scripts >> >> > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > wrote: >> >> > Hello, >> >> > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like >> >> > being mentally >> >> > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can >> >> > not do. We >> >> > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like >> >> > mentally >> >> > disabled >> >> > people really are mentally disabled. >> >> > *That's a mouthful!* >> >> > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under >> >> > employed >> >> > and >> >> > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of >> >> > them. But I'm >> >> > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience >> >> > that many >> >> > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and >> >> > often it's >> >> > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are >> >> > pressured into >> >> > doing jobs they aren?셳 good at. >> >> > >> >> > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will >> >> > in the >> >> > first >> >> > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and >> >> > it's pretty >> >> > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind >> >> > person. If >> >> > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just >> >> > take a >> >> > class at their community college and change their job. I believe >> >> > SSI is >> >> > for >> >> > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back >> >> > up when >> >> > work >> >> > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure >> >> > jobs if I >> >> > go >> >> > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral >> >> > issues, I'm not >> >> > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Arielle Silverman >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating >> >> > items >> >> > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A >> >> > customer >> >> > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably >> >> > hurt >> >> > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very >> >> > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches >> >> > nationally, we >> >> > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national >> >> > policy. >> >> > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll >> >> > call her >> >> > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman >> >> > with >> >> > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call >> >> > her C). >> >> > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know >> >> > both S >> >> > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. >> >> > Apparently C >> >> > is employed by a program for people with intellectual >> >> > disabilities >> >> > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. >> >> > told >> >> > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely >> >> > menial >> >> > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. >> >> > However, I >> >> > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived >> >> > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. >> >> > The >> >> > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even >> >> > had >> >> > independent access to the money she earned at her job. >> >> > I don't think I can really judge whether people with >> >> > disabilities like >> >> > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending >> >> > their >> >> > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge >> >> > how >> >> > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like >> >> > C. >> >> > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and >> >> > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more >> >> > freedom. >> >> > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should >> >> > be >> >> > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that >> >> > blindness >> >> > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently >> >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 17:41:53 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:41:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Deb, My name is Arielle Silverman and I'm a doctoral student in Colorado. I also grew up in AZ and will be in Dallas. I'd love to meet you and introduce you to other folks from AZ, including students. If you want to get together, email me privately at arielle71 at gmail.com Best, Arielle On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: > No sorry. UA UNIVERSITY OF AZ. > > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 > On Jun 10, 2012 10:31 AM, "Joshua Lester" > wrote: > >> UA, as in Arkansas? >> I'll be in Dallas! >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: >> > R there any grad students in NAB? >> > I'm attending UA in Spring 4 MLS. R any of u going 2 Dallas? >> > Deb >> > >> > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 >> > On Jun 10, 2012 10:17 AM, "Joshua Lester" < >> jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Wow! >> >> You'll be moving to Mr Lewis's headquarters. >> >> Speaking of which, I'm about to start a new thread about that! >> >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> >> On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: >> >> > My new boyfriend is from Georgia, so yeah, I have a good idea of >> >> > whuaft kind of foods he likes, sort of. :) >> >> > Beth >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: Joshua Lester > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > > >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500 >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you >> >> > need, to >> >> > cook Southern food. >> >> > Where is your new boyfriend from? >> >> > Thanks, Joshua >> >> > >> >> > On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: >> >> > First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center >> >> > out of state. It took that to get me to learn daily living >> >> > skills. I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people. >> >> > You've got great points, Brandon. My boyfriend will have to do >> >> > daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills >> >> > teacher in his state that can help. I tried learning from a >> >> > daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with >> >> > never really told my parents they had to be patient. HE's lucky >> >> > his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone. >> >> > Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did. If >> >> > I >> >> > have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and >> >> > teach >> >> > myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some >> >> > of his favorites. But I'll be that patient with him and help >> >> > him >> >> > get on his feet. I'll probably have to learn something, but I >> >> > think living in the bay area won't be possible. I have to live >> >> > where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever. >> >> > I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh >> >> > yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale >> >> > store unlike Goodwill. >> >> > Beth >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > > >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700 >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hello Beth, >> >> > let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have >> >> > enough >> >> > reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. >> >> > If you've >> >> > read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. >> >> > They shelter >> >> > you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor >> >> > definitely >> >> > has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to >> >> > school and get >> >> > that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my >> >> > graduation! >> >> > If money >> >> > is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can >> >> > fully >> >> > cover the >> >> > cost of school, minus housing and food. >> >> > Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people >> >> > that >> >> > I know >> >> > about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business >> >> > section and I >> >> > was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and >> >> > investing. I >> >> > don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to >> >> > really make >> >> > something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one >> >> > of those >> >> > things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking >> >> > and >> >> > socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about >> >> > how to find >> >> > banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how >> >> > to budget >> >> > effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food >> >> > and clothing, >> >> > and no one needs any help on running a family in school. >> >> > My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the >> >> > students that >> >> > come to her class have never had a communication class in their >> >> > life, yet >> >> > 100% of her students have had to communicate. >> >> > We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life >> >> > is I >> >> > guess...? >> >> > Personally I've found that those who have the most power over >> >> > people in this >> >> > world are those with money and those with exceptional >> >> > communication skills. >> >> > I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and >> >> > go >> >> > to >> >> > Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the >> >> > disability >> >> > center is the best in the west. They also give oober >> >> > scholarships >> >> > to those >> >> > students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand >> >> > in >> >> > scholarships*. >> >> > Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one >> >> > can get >> >> > renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every >> >> > part of >> >> > school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. >> >> > Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking >> >> > problem as we >> >> > are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's >> >> > on the >> >> > radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but >> >> > besides >> >> > that, the >> >> > Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any >> >> > general college >> >> > that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. >> >> > If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, >> >> > because not >> >> > only is the blindness support so great, but public >> >> > transportation >> >> > is the >> >> > best in the nation for both those places. >> >> > But enough on me pushing SF...! >> >> > Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose >> >> > of Daily >> >> > living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the >> >> > "Vista >> >> > Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become >> >> > independent. I >> >> > love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move >> >> > out on my >> >> > own when I was 18. >> >> > I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and >> >> > Justin >> >> > was saying >> >> > something about attending a program that also teaches living >> >> > skills. But my >> >> > teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those >> >> > who go >> >> > above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they >> >> > were taught >> >> > on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. >> >> > They expect >> >> > everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones >> >> > who >> >> > generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, >> >> > if I were >> >> > you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting >> >> > him know >> >> > that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take >> >> > care of >> >> > himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but >> >> > you >> >> > can let >> >> > him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than >> >> > it's time >> >> > to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want >> >> > to >> >> > be sent to >> >> > one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first >> >> > hand why he >> >> > must learn living skills in order to be free. >> >> > I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until >> >> > after your >> >> > Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life >> >> > to >> >> > live and >> >> > you should not be forced to live for two people which you would >> >> > be doing if >> >> > you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. >> >> > >> >> > I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to >> >> > prom with a >> >> > girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a >> >> > girlfriend till my >> >> > last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. >> >> > I didn't >> >> > have another till a little over a year after that. It was with >> >> > that second >> >> > girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the >> >> > worst things >> >> > since the invention of eyes. >> >> > If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear >> >> > yourself think, >> >> > let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed >> >> > together on >> >> > all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how >> >> > to dance by >> >> > your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. >> >> > The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but >> >> > the >> >> > dance >> >> > itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the >> >> > romantic part, >> >> > you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the >> >> > Blue >> >> > Danube at >> >> > the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have >> >> > a dance to >> >> > call themselves a dance? >> >> > anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when >> >> > you're >> >> > going through school than the social aspects. In college though, >> >> > guys become >> >> > much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just >> >> > because they >> >> > have lived and learned much more through their life. >> >> > Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature >> >> > enough in >> >> > some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature >> >> > when it came >> >> > to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should >> >> > never >> >> > expect >> >> > people to change. So part of my problem about having a small >> >> > social life is >> >> > that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still >> >> > much to >> >> > immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. >> >> > But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm >> >> > not socially >> >> > mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the >> >> > biggest >> >> > problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves >> >> > off as good >> >> > relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was >> >> > only >> >> > blind this >> >> > would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, >> >> > being able >> >> > to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one >> >> > wants to >> >> > make it in anything other than strictly working in something >> >> > like >> >> > the NFB or >> >> > Goodwill. >> >> > We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people >> >> > think and >> >> > how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted >> >> > people. Once >> >> > we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're >> >> > blind, we >> >> > should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we >> >> > are blind. >> >> > Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they >> >> > will look no >> >> > farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being >> >> > disabled is >> >> > repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do >> >> > anything in >> >> > the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a >> >> > sighted person >> >> > first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one >> >> > is able to >> >> > make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not >> >> > repulsive and >> >> > weird. >> >> > Thank you, >> >> > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Beth >> >> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and >> >> > mentally >> >> > ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've >> >> > been >> >> > called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he >> >> > could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all >> >> > kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was >> >> > told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a >> >> > genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, >> >> > superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then >> >> > again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no >> >> > roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that >> >> > with the right support and good friends around me, I could >> >> > thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, >> >> > and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own >> >> > children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens >> >> > of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good >> >> > days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a >> >> > fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the >> >> > rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could >> >> > get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with >> >> > rapids >> >> > that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest >> >> > "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages >> >> > thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that >> >> > blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. >> >> > My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly >> >> > teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I >> >> > struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off >> >> > of, >> >> > and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage >> >> > fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck >> >> > paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep >> >> > track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer >> >> > for >> >> > all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's >> >> > going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What >> >> > if >> >> > I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry >> >> > Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare >> >> > surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he >> >> > won't >> >> > have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel >> >> > can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. >> >> > I >> >> > was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with >> >> > him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just >> >> > makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a >> >> > meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on >> >> > Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the >> >> > weird part is that his parents are open to us having a >> >> > relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not >> >> > limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer >> >> > people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live >> >> > together successfully with all the right supports, and if we >> >> > can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. >> >> > But >> >> > I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to >> >> > manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to >> >> > my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason >> >> > there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old >> >> > mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. >> >> > My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so >> >> > good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like >> >> > how >> >> > to go back and look at your payment history every time if you >> >> > get >> >> > suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, >> >> > you >> >> > have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I >> >> > may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt >> >> > Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this >> >> > month >> >> > because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to >> >> > do, >> >> > I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless >> >> > you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about >> >> > disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to >> >> > learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, >> >> > blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the >> >> > parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their >> >> > flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the >> >> > same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We >> >> > wait >> >> > on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. >> >> > Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't >> >> > necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca >> >> > Salt >> >> > in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a >> >> > spoiled >> >> > literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen >> >> > Keller >> >> > was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was >> >> > deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are >> >> > ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there >> >> > were >> >> > no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. >> >> > I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to >> >> > me--hence >> >> > the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs >> >> > and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems >> >> > like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long >> >> > email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much >> >> > more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my >> >> > dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But >> >> > thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a >> >> > text >> >> > message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like >> >> > yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible >> >> > phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my >> >> > ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which >> >> > is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my >> >> > friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to >> >> > change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a >> >> > good >> >> > while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I >> >> > would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan >> >> > to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job >> >> > helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim >> >> > advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services >> >> > that >> >> > may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with >> >> > human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if >> >> > there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd >> >> > like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but >> >> > where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and >> >> > a >> >> > good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I >> >> > have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or >> >> > through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. >> >> > To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job >> >> > helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social >> >> > work >> >> > degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to >> >> > advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, >> >> > "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not >> >> > fit >> >> > to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of >> >> > nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem >> >> > to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they >> >> > don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more >> >> > to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and >> >> > they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But >> >> > what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to >> >> > gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have >> >> > because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people >> >> > are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social >> >> > workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me >> >> > keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going >> >> > through >> >> > school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you >> >> > don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a >> >> > small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. >> >> > That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer >> >> > me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things >> >> > that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I >> >> > want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such >> >> > pride >> >> > a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My >> >> > mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me >> >> > into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the >> >> > school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and >> >> > summer >> >> > jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I >> >> > am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, >> >> > and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being >> >> > the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be >> >> > offered >> >> > a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where >> >> > medical >> >> > experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering >> >> > degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's >> >> > interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough >> >> > blind >> >> > computer engineers, except those in the underground geek >> >> > industry >> >> > as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to >> >> > communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so >> >> > to speak. >> >> > Ok, my rant is over. >> >> > Beth >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > > >> > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700 >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hello, >> >> > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm >> >> > going to >> >> > say... >> >> > It's the educational system that many of these problems come >> >> > down >> >> > to. We >> >> > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to >> >> > create >> >> > a new >> >> > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about >> >> > disabled >> >> > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask >> >> > for >> >> > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! >> >> > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted >> >> > person, I would >> >> > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United >> >> > States when >> >> > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get >> >> > leniency on >> >> > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get >> >> > free >> >> > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so >> >> > many >> >> > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for >> >> > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends >> >> > with your >> >> > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you >> >> > are by >> >> > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to >> >> > read your >> >> > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, >> >> > you're able >> >> > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for >> >> > taking >> >> > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled >> >> > and that's >> >> > what you're expected to do! >> >> > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when >> >> > you >> >> > get 100% >> >> > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people >> >> > think >> >> > it's >> >> > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, >> >> > (Stereotypically) >> >> > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time >> >> > to >> >> > do school >> >> > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and >> >> > instructions >> >> > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem >> >> > with your >> >> > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the >> >> > web browser, >> >> > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors >> >> > class at a >> >> > community college and you have good grades and you've written >> >> > one >> >> > of those >> >> > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get >> >> > the >> >> > super >> >> > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", >> >> > you're able >> >> > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies >> >> > like Global >> >> > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job >> >> > programs >> >> > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community >> >> > college or >> >> > state college you're given a guide through the school because >> >> > you >> >> > need a >> >> > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person. >> >> > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... >> >> > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years >> >> > of my life >> >> > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing >> >> > parents and >> >> > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view >> >> > of school, >> >> > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was >> >> > just that >> >> > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped >> >> > with the >> >> > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. >> >> > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's >> >> > multiple theory >> >> > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, >> >> > but thank >> >> > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, >> >> > they just >> >> > need to know how they learn and learn that way! >> >> > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so >> >> > I'll get off >> >> > education. >> >> > My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all >> >> > the >> >> > above things. >> >> > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings >> >> > and my mom >> >> > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind >> >> > person needs to >> >> > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years >> >> > of your >> >> > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. >> >> > >> >> > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a >> >> > tighter mold of >> >> > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of >> >> > anyone. >> >> > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they >> >> > don't need >> >> > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme >> >> > cases of >> >> > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is >> >> > put into >> >> > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! >> >> > It's like if >> >> > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people >> >> > stuck him >> >> > into special ed just because he can't talk! >> >> > Where would cosmology be? >> >> > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their >> >> > own way into >> >> > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled >> >> > that are >> >> > fighting for these rights. >> >> > >> >> > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird >> >> > it's >> >> > not them >> >> > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're >> >> > weird. It's >> >> > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through >> >> > time the same >> >> > way you are! >> >> > >> >> > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason >> >> > and >> >> > go for >> >> > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and >> >> > that's why >> >> > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. >> >> > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have >> >> > probably not >> >> > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the >> >> > sighted >> >> > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level >> >> > jobs. >> >> > >> >> > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything >> >> > other than >> >> > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this >> >> > world likes to >> >> > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with >> >> > the crowd. >> >> > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered >> >> > weird, those who >> >> > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise >> >> > above it are >> >> > considered great. >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Arielle Silverman >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hi Brandon, >> >> > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind >> >> > people >> >> > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I >> >> > have >> >> > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. >> >> > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what >> >> > a >> >> > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective >> >> > tests >> >> > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for >> >> > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities >> >> > or >> >> > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and >> >> > teachers, >> >> > or >> >> > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research >> >> > showing >> >> > that >> >> > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, >> >> > they >> >> > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a >> >> > "self-fulfilling >> >> > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up >> >> > "Pygmalian >> >> > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are >> >> > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids >> >> > differently >> >> > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up >> >> > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too >> >> > often >> >> > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about >> >> > how >> >> > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in >> >> > ways >> >> > that make those assumptions come true. >> >> > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more >> >> > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was >> >> > intrinsically >> >> > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were >> >> > actually >> >> > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and >> >> > mental >> >> > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task >> >> > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply >> >> > too >> >> > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities >> >> > have >> >> > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I >> >> > have >> >> > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop >> >> > job, >> >> > I >> >> > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at >> >> > minimum >> >> > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my >> >> > hands or >> >> > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just >> >> > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking >> >> > and >> >> > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills >> >> > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. >> >> > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is >> >> > true >> >> > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the >> >> > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons >> >> > for >> >> > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that >> >> > employers >> >> > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many >> >> > fields, >> >> > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain >> >> > experience >> >> > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with >> >> > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your >> >> > foot in >> >> > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For >> >> > example, >> >> > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, >> >> > which >> >> > means you are working under someone else who might not use >> >> > accessible >> >> > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without >> >> > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory >> >> > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within >> >> > an >> >> > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that >> >> > aren't >> >> > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very >> >> > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or >> >> > scripts >> >> > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > wrote: >> >> > Hello, >> >> > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like >> >> > being mentally >> >> > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can >> >> > not do. We >> >> > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like >> >> > mentally >> >> > disabled >> >> > people really are mentally disabled. >> >> > *That's a mouthful!* >> >> > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under >> >> > employed >> >> > and >> >> > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of >> >> > them. But I'm >> >> > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience >> >> > that many >> >> > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and >> >> > often it's >> >> > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are >> >> > pressured into >> >> > doing jobs they aren?셳 good at. >> >> > >> >> > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will >> >> > in the >> >> > first >> >> > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and >> >> > it's pretty >> >> > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind >> >> > person. If >> >> > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just >> >> > take a >> >> > class at their community college and change their job. I believe >> >> > SSI is >> >> > for >> >> > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back >> >> > up when >> >> > work >> >> > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure >> >> > jobs if I >> >> > go >> >> > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral >> >> > issues, I'm not >> >> > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Arielle Silverman >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating >> >> > items >> >> > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A >> >> > customer >> >> > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably >> >> > hurt >> >> > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very >> >> > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches >> >> > nationally, we >> >> > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national >> >> > policy. >> >> > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll >> >> > call her >> >> > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman >> >> > with >> >> > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call >> >> > her C). >> >> > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know >> >> > both S >> >> > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. >> >> > Apparently C >> >> > is employed by a program for people with intellectual >> >> > disabilities >> >> > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. >> >> > told >> >> > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely >> >> > menial >> >> > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. >> >> > However, I >> >> > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived >> >> > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. >> >> > The >> >> > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even >> >> > had >> >> > independent access to the money she earned at her job. >> >> > I don't think I can really judge whether people with >> >> > disabilities like >> >> > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending >> >> > their >> >> > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge >> >> > how >> >> > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like >> >> > C. >> >> > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and >> >> > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more >> >> > freedom. >> >> > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should >> >> > be >> >> > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that >> >> > blindness >> >> > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently >> >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 17:44:02 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 10:44:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow that sound interesting. Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 On Jun 10, 2012 10:41 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: > Wow! > What's your major? > I'm not going to grad school, but I'm getting my degree in Behavioral > Health, in May of 2013. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: > > No sorry. UA UNIVERSITY OF AZ. > > > > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 > > On Jun 10, 2012 10:31 AM, "Joshua Lester" < > jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> > > wrote: > > > >> UA, as in Arkansas? > >> I'll be in Dallas! > >> Thanks, Joshua > >> > >> On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: > >> > R there any grad students in NAB? > >> > I'm attending UA in Spring 4 MLS. R any of u going 2 Dallas? > >> > Deb > >> > > >> > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 > >> > On Jun 10, 2012 10:17 AM, "Joshua Lester" < > >> jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> Wow! > >> >> You'll be moving to Mr Lewis's headquarters. > >> >> Speaking of which, I'm about to start a new thread about that! > >> >> Blessings, Joshua > >> >> > >> >> On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > >> >> > My new boyfriend is from Georgia, so yeah, I have a good idea of > >> >> > whuaft kind of foods he likes, sort of. :) > >> >> > Beth > >> >> > > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: Joshua Lester >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> > >> >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500 > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you > >> >> > need, to > >> >> > cook Southern food. > >> >> > Where is your new boyfriend from? > >> >> > Thanks, Joshua > >> >> > > >> >> > On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > >> >> > First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center > >> >> > out of state. It took that to get me to learn daily living > >> >> > skills. I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people. > >> >> > You've got great points, Brandon. My boyfriend will have to do > >> >> > daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills > >> >> > teacher in his state that can help. I tried learning from a > >> >> > daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with > >> >> > never really told my parents they had to be patient. HE's lucky > >> >> > his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone. > >> >> > Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did. If > >> >> > I > >> >> > have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and > >> >> > teach > >> >> > myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some > >> >> > of his favorites. But I'll be that patient with him and help > >> >> > him > >> >> > get on his feet. I'll probably have to learn something, but I > >> >> > think living in the bay area won't be possible. I have to live > >> >> > where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever. > >> >> > I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh > >> >> > yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale > >> >> > store unlike Goodwill. > >> >> > Beth > >> >> > > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >> > >> >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700 > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Hello Beth, > >> >> > let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have > >> >> > enough > >> >> > reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. > >> >> > If you've > >> >> > read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. > >> >> > They shelter > >> >> > you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor > >> >> > definitely > >> >> > has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to > >> >> > school and get > >> >> > that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my > >> >> > graduation! > >> >> > If money > >> >> > is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can > >> >> > fully > >> >> > cover the > >> >> > cost of school, minus housing and food. > >> >> > Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people > >> >> > that > >> >> > I know > >> >> > about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business > >> >> > section and I > >> >> > was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and > >> >> > investing. I > >> >> > don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to > >> >> > really make > >> >> > something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one > >> >> > of those > >> >> > things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking > >> >> > and > >> >> > socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about > >> >> > how to find > >> >> > banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how > >> >> > to budget > >> >> > effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food > >> >> > and clothing, > >> >> > and no one needs any help on running a family in school. > >> >> > My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the > >> >> > students that > >> >> > come to her class have never had a communication class in their > >> >> > life, yet > >> >> > 100% of her students have had to communicate. > >> >> > We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life > >> >> > is I > >> >> > guess...? > >> >> > Personally I've found that those who have the most power over > >> >> > people in this > >> >> > world are those with money and those with exceptional > >> >> > communication skills. > >> >> > I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and > >> >> > go > >> >> > to > >> >> > Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the > >> >> > disability > >> >> > center is the best in the west. They also give oober > >> >> > scholarships > >> >> > to those > >> >> > students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand > >> >> > in > >> >> > scholarships*. > >> >> > Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one > >> >> > can get > >> >> > renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every > >> >> > part of > >> >> > school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. > >> >> > Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking > >> >> > problem as we > >> >> > are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's > >> >> > on the > >> >> > radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but > >> >> > besides > >> >> > that, the > >> >> > Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any > >> >> > general college > >> >> > that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. > >> >> > If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, > >> >> > because not > >> >> > only is the blindness support so great, but public > >> >> > transportation > >> >> > is the > >> >> > best in the nation for both those places. > >> >> > But enough on me pushing SF...! > >> >> > Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose > >> >> > of Daily > >> >> > living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the > >> >> > "Vista > >> >> > Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become > >> >> > independent. I > >> >> > love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move > >> >> > out on my > >> >> > own when I was 18. > >> >> > I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and > >> >> > Justin > >> >> > was saying > >> >> > something about attending a program that also teaches living > >> >> > skills. But my > >> >> > teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those > >> >> > who go > >> >> > above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they > >> >> > were taught > >> >> > on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. > >> >> > They expect > >> >> > everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones > >> >> > who > >> >> > generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, > >> >> > if I were > >> >> > you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting > >> >> > him know > >> >> > that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take > >> >> > care of > >> >> > himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but > >> >> > you > >> >> > can let > >> >> > him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than > >> >> > it's time > >> >> > to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want > >> >> > to > >> >> > be sent to > >> >> > one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first > >> >> > hand why he > >> >> > must learn living skills in order to be free. > >> >> > I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until > >> >> > after your > >> >> > Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life > >> >> > to > >> >> > live and > >> >> > you should not be forced to live for two people which you would > >> >> > be doing if > >> >> > you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. > >> >> > > >> >> > I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to > >> >> > prom with a > >> >> > girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a > >> >> > girlfriend till my > >> >> > last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. > >> >> > I didn't > >> >> > have another till a little over a year after that. It was with > >> >> > that second > >> >> > girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the > >> >> > worst things > >> >> > since the invention of eyes. > >> >> > If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear > >> >> > yourself think, > >> >> > let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed > >> >> > together on > >> >> > all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how > >> >> > to dance by > >> >> > your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. > >> >> > The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but > >> >> > the > >> >> > dance > >> >> > itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the > >> >> > romantic part, > >> >> > you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the > >> >> > Blue > >> >> > Danube at > >> >> > the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have > >> >> > a dance to > >> >> > call themselves a dance? > >> >> > anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when > >> >> > you're > >> >> > going through school than the social aspects. In college though, > >> >> > guys become > >> >> > much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just > >> >> > because they > >> >> > have lived and learned much more through their life. > >> >> > Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature > >> >> > enough in > >> >> > some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature > >> >> > when it came > >> >> > to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should > >> >> > never > >> >> > expect > >> >> > people to change. So part of my problem about having a small > >> >> > social life is > >> >> > that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still > >> >> > much to > >> >> > immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. > >> >> > But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm > >> >> > not socially > >> >> > mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the > >> >> > biggest > >> >> > problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves > >> >> > off as good > >> >> > relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was > >> >> > only > >> >> > blind this > >> >> > would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, > >> >> > being able > >> >> > to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one > >> >> > wants to > >> >> > make it in anything other than strictly working in something > >> >> > like > >> >> > the NFB or > >> >> > Goodwill. > >> >> > We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people > >> >> > think and > >> >> > how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted > >> >> > people. Once > >> >> > we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're > >> >> > blind, we > >> >> > should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we > >> >> > are blind. > >> >> > Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they > >> >> > will look no > >> >> > farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being > >> >> > disabled is > >> >> > repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do > >> >> > anything in > >> >> > the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a > >> >> > sighted person > >> >> > first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one > >> >> > is able to > >> >> > make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not > >> >> > repulsive and > >> >> > weird. > >> >> > Thank you, > >> >> > > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: Beth > >> >> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and > >> >> > mentally > >> >> > ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've > >> >> > been > >> >> > called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he > >> >> > could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all > >> >> > kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was > >> >> > told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a > >> >> > genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, > >> >> > superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then > >> >> > again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no > >> >> > roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that > >> >> > with the right support and good friends around me, I could > >> >> > thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, > >> >> > and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own > >> >> > children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens > >> >> > of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good > >> >> > days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a > >> >> > fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the > >> >> > rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could > >> >> > get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with > >> >> > rapids > >> >> > that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest > >> >> > "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages > >> >> > thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that > >> >> > blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. > >> >> > My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly > >> >> > teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I > >> >> > struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off > >> >> > of, > >> >> > and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage > >> >> > fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck > >> >> > paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep > >> >> > track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer > >> >> > for > >> >> > all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's > >> >> > going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What > >> >> > if > >> >> > I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry > >> >> > Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare > >> >> > surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he > >> >> > won't > >> >> > have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel > >> >> > can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. > >> >> > I > >> >> > was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with > >> >> > him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just > >> >> > makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a > >> >> > meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on > >> >> > Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the > >> >> > weird part is that his parents are open to us having a > >> >> > relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not > >> >> > limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer > >> >> > people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live > >> >> > together successfully with all the right supports, and if we > >> >> > can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. > >> >> > But > >> >> > I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to > >> >> > manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to > >> >> > my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason > >> >> > there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old > >> >> > mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. > >> >> > My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so > >> >> > good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like > >> >> > how > >> >> > to go back and look at your payment history every time if you > >> >> > get > >> >> > suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, > >> >> > you > >> >> > have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I > >> >> > may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt > >> >> > Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this > >> >> > month > >> >> > because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to > >> >> > do, > >> >> > I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless > >> >> > you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about > >> >> > disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to > >> >> > learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, > >> >> > blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the > >> >> > parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their > >> >> > flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the > >> >> > same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We > >> >> > wait > >> >> > on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. > >> >> > Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't > >> >> > necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca > >> >> > Salt > >> >> > in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a > >> >> > spoiled > >> >> > literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen > >> >> > Keller > >> >> > was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was > >> >> > deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are > >> >> > ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there > >> >> > were > >> >> > no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. > >> >> > I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to > >> >> > me--hence > >> >> > the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs > >> >> > and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems > >> >> > like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long > >> >> > email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much > >> >> > more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my > >> >> > dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But > >> >> > thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a > >> >> > text > >> >> > message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like > >> >> > yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible > >> >> > phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my > >> >> > ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which > >> >> > is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my > >> >> > friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to > >> >> > change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a > >> >> > good > >> >> > while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I > >> >> > would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan > >> >> > to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job > >> >> > helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim > >> >> > advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services > >> >> > that > >> >> > may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with > >> >> > human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if > >> >> > there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd > >> >> > like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but > >> >> > where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and > >> >> > a > >> >> > good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I > >> >> > have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or > >> >> > through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. > >> >> > To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job > >> >> > helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social > >> >> > work > >> >> > degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to > >> >> > advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, > >> >> > "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not > >> >> > fit > >> >> > to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of > >> >> > nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem > >> >> > to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they > >> >> > don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more > >> >> > to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and > >> >> > they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But > >> >> > what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to > >> >> > gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have > >> >> > because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people > >> >> > are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social > >> >> > workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me > >> >> > keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going > >> >> > through > >> >> > school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you > >> >> > don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a > >> >> > small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. > >> >> > That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer > >> >> > me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things > >> >> > that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I > >> >> > want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such > >> >> > pride > >> >> > a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My > >> >> > mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me > >> >> > into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the > >> >> > school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and > >> >> > summer > >> >> > jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I > >> >> > am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, > >> >> > and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being > >> >> > the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be > >> >> > offered > >> >> > a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where > >> >> > medical > >> >> > experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering > >> >> > degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's > >> >> > interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough > >> >> > blind > >> >> > computer engineers, except those in the underground geek > >> >> > industry > >> >> > as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to > >> >> > communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so > >> >> > to speak. > >> >> > Ok, my rant is over. > >> >> > Beth > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >> > >> >> > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700 > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Hello, > >> >> > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm > >> >> > going to > >> >> > say... > >> >> > It's the educational system that many of these problems come > >> >> > down > >> >> > to. We > >> >> > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to > >> >> > create > >> >> > a new > >> >> > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about > >> >> > disabled > >> >> > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask > >> >> > for > >> >> > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > >> >> > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted > >> >> > person, I would > >> >> > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United > >> >> > States when > >> >> > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get > >> >> > leniency on > >> >> > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get > >> >> > free > >> >> > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so > >> >> > many > >> >> > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > >> >> > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends > >> >> > with your > >> >> > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you > >> >> > are by > >> >> > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to > >> >> > read your > >> >> > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, > >> >> > you're able > >> >> > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for > >> >> > taking > >> >> > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled > >> >> > and that's > >> >> > what you're expected to do! > >> >> > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when > >> >> > you > >> >> > get 100% > >> >> > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people > >> >> > think > >> >> > it's > >> >> > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, > >> >> > (Stereotypically) > >> >> > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time > >> >> > to > >> >> > do school > >> >> > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and > >> >> > instructions > >> >> > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem > >> >> > with your > >> >> > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the > >> >> > web browser, > >> >> > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors > >> >> > class at a > >> >> > community college and you have good grades and you've written > >> >> > one > >> >> > of those > >> >> > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get > >> >> > the > >> >> > super > >> >> > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", > >> >> > you're able > >> >> > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies > >> >> > like Global > >> >> > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job > >> >> > programs > >> >> > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community > >> >> > college or > >> >> > state college you're given a guide through the school because > >> >> > you > >> >> > need a > >> >> > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person. > >> >> > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > >> >> > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years > >> >> > of my life > >> >> > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing > >> >> > parents and > >> >> > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view > >> >> > of school, > >> >> > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was > >> >> > just that > >> >> > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped > >> >> > with the > >> >> > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > >> >> > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's > >> >> > multiple theory > >> >> > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, > >> >> > but thank > >> >> > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, > >> >> > they just > >> >> > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > >> >> > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so > >> >> > I'll get off > >> >> > education. > >> >> > My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all > >> >> > the > >> >> > above things. > >> >> > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings > >> >> > and my mom > >> >> > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind > >> >> > person needs to > >> >> > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years > >> >> > of your > >> >> > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > >> >> > > >> >> > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a > >> >> > tighter mold of > >> >> > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of > >> >> > anyone. > >> >> > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they > >> >> > don't need > >> >> > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme > >> >> > cases of > >> >> > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is > >> >> > put into > >> >> > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! > >> >> > It's like if > >> >> > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people > >> >> > stuck him > >> >> > into special ed just because he can't talk! > >> >> > Where would cosmology be? > >> >> > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their > >> >> > own way into > >> >> > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled > >> >> > that are > >> >> > fighting for these rights. > >> >> > > >> >> > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird > >> >> > it's > >> >> > not them > >> >> > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're > >> >> > weird. It's > >> >> > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through > >> >> > time the same > >> >> > way you are! > >> >> > > >> >> > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason > >> >> > and > >> >> > go for > >> >> > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and > >> >> > that's why > >> >> > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > >> >> > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have > >> >> > probably not > >> >> > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the > >> >> > sighted > >> >> > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level > >> >> > jobs. > >> >> > > >> >> > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything > >> >> > other than > >> >> > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this > >> >> > world likes to > >> >> > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with > >> >> > the crowd. > >> >> > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered > >> >> > weird, those who > >> >> > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise > >> >> > above it are > >> >> > considered great. > >> >> > Thanks, > >> >> > > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: Arielle Silverman > >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi Brandon, > >> >> > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind > >> >> > people > >> >> > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I > >> >> > have > >> >> > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > >> >> > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what > >> >> > a > >> >> > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective > >> >> > tests > >> >> > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > >> >> > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities > >> >> > or > >> >> > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and > >> >> > teachers, > >> >> > or > >> >> > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research > >> >> > showing > >> >> > that > >> >> > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, > >> >> > they > >> >> > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a > >> >> > "self-fulfilling > >> >> > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up > >> >> > "Pygmalian > >> >> > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > >> >> > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids > >> >> > differently > >> >> > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > >> >> > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too > >> >> > often > >> >> > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about > >> >> > how > >> >> > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in > >> >> > ways > >> >> > that make those assumptions come true. > >> >> > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > >> >> > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was > >> >> > intrinsically > >> >> > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were > >> >> > actually > >> >> > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and > >> >> > mental > >> >> > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > >> >> > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply > >> >> > too > >> >> > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities > >> >> > have > >> >> > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I > >> >> > have > >> >> > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop > >> >> > job, > >> >> > I > >> >> > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at > >> >> > minimum > >> >> > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my > >> >> > hands or > >> >> > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > >> >> > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking > >> >> > and > >> >> > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > >> >> > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > >> >> > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is > >> >> > true > >> >> > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > >> >> > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons > >> >> > for > >> >> > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that > >> >> > employers > >> >> > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many > >> >> > fields, > >> >> > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain > >> >> > experience > >> >> > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > >> >> > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your > >> >> > foot in > >> >> > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For > >> >> > example, > >> >> > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, > >> >> > which > >> >> > means you are working under someone else who might not use > >> >> > accessible > >> >> > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > >> >> > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > >> >> > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within > >> >> > an > >> >> > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that > >> >> > aren't > >> >> > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > >> >> > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or > >> >> > scripts > >> >> > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > >> >> > Arielle > >> >> > > >> >> > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > Hello, > >> >> > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like > >> >> > being mentally > >> >> > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can > >> >> > not do. We > >> >> > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like > >> >> > mentally > >> >> > disabled > >> >> > people really are mentally disabled. > >> >> > *That's a mouthful!* > >> >> > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under > >> >> > employed > >> >> > and > >> >> > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of > >> >> > them. But I'm > >> >> > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience > >> >> > that many > >> >> > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and > >> >> > often it's > >> >> > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are > >> >> > pressured into > >> >> > doing jobs they aren?셳 good at. > >> >> > > >> >> > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will > >> >> > in the > >> >> > first > >> >> > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and > >> >> > it's pretty > >> >> > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind > >> >> > person. If > >> >> > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just > >> >> > take a > >> >> > class at their community college and change their job. I believe > >> >> > SSI is > >> >> > for > >> >> > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back > >> >> > up when > >> >> > work > >> >> > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure > >> >> > jobs if I > >> >> > go > >> >> > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral > >> >> > issues, I'm not > >> >> > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > >> >> > Thanks, > >> >> > > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: Arielle Silverman > >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi all, > >> >> > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating > >> >> > items > >> >> > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A > >> >> > customer > >> >> > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably > >> >> > hurt > >> >> > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > >> >> > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches > >> >> > nationally, we > >> >> > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national > >> >> > policy. > >> >> > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll > >> >> > call her > >> >> > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman > >> >> > with > >> >> > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call > >> >> > her C). > >> >> > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know > >> >> > both S > >> >> > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. > >> >> > Apparently C > >> >> > is employed by a program for people with intellectual > >> >> > disabilities > >> >> > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. > >> >> > told > >> >> > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely > >> >> > menial > >> >> > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. > >> >> > However, I > >> >> > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > >> >> > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. > >> >> > The > >> >> > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even > >> >> > had > >> >> > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > >> >> > I don't think I can really judge whether people with > >> >> > disabilities like > >> >> > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending > >> >> > their > >> >> > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge > >> >> > how > >> >> > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like > >> >> > C. > >> >> > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > >> >> > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more > >> >> > freedom. > >> >> > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should > >> >> > be > >> >> > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that > >> >> > blindness > >> >> > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 17:43:07 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 10:43:07 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Information resources/library science. MIRLS Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 On Jun 10, 2012 10:41 AM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: > Wow! > What's your major? > I'm not going to grad school, but I'm getting my degree in Behavioral > Health, in May of 2013. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: > > No sorry. UA UNIVERSITY OF AZ. > > > > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 > > On Jun 10, 2012 10:31 AM, "Joshua Lester" < > jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> > > wrote: > > > >> UA, as in Arkansas? > >> I'll be in Dallas! > >> Thanks, Joshua > >> > >> On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: > >> > R there any grad students in NAB? > >> > I'm attending UA in Spring 4 MLS. R any of u going 2 Dallas? > >> > Deb > >> > > >> > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 > >> > On Jun 10, 2012 10:17 AM, "Joshua Lester" < > >> jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> Wow! > >> >> You'll be moving to Mr Lewis's headquarters. > >> >> Speaking of which, I'm about to start a new thread about that! > >> >> Blessings, Joshua > >> >> > >> >> On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > >> >> > My new boyfriend is from Georgia, so yeah, I have a good idea of > >> >> > whuaft kind of foods he likes, sort of. :) > >> >> > Beth > >> >> > > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: Joshua Lester >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> > >> >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500 > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you > >> >> > need, to > >> >> > cook Southern food. > >> >> > Where is your new boyfriend from? > >> >> > Thanks, Joshua > >> >> > > >> >> > On 6/10/12, Beth wrote: > >> >> > First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center > >> >> > out of state. It took that to get me to learn daily living > >> >> > skills. I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people. > >> >> > You've got great points, Brandon. My boyfriend will have to do > >> >> > daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills > >> >> > teacher in his state that can help. I tried learning from a > >> >> > daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with > >> >> > never really told my parents they had to be patient. HE's lucky > >> >> > his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone. > >> >> > Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did. If > >> >> > I > >> >> > have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and > >> >> > teach > >> >> > myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some > >> >> > of his favorites. But I'll be that patient with him and help > >> >> > him > >> >> > get on his feet. I'll probably have to learn something, but I > >> >> > think living in the bay area won't be possible. I have to live > >> >> > where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever. > >> >> > I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh > >> >> > yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale > >> >> > store unlike Goodwill. > >> >> > Beth > >> >> > > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >> > >> >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700 > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Hello Beth, > >> >> > let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have > >> >> > enough > >> >> > reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. > >> >> > If you've > >> >> > read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. > >> >> > They shelter > >> >> > you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor > >> >> > definitely > >> >> > has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to > >> >> > school and get > >> >> > that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my > >> >> > graduation! > >> >> > If money > >> >> > is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can > >> >> > fully > >> >> > cover the > >> >> > cost of school, minus housing and food. > >> >> > Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people > >> >> > that > >> >> > I know > >> >> > about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business > >> >> > section and I > >> >> > was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and > >> >> > investing. I > >> >> > don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to > >> >> > really make > >> >> > something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one > >> >> > of those > >> >> > things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking > >> >> > and > >> >> > socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about > >> >> > how to find > >> >> > banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how > >> >> > to budget > >> >> > effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food > >> >> > and clothing, > >> >> > and no one needs any help on running a family in school. > >> >> > My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the > >> >> > students that > >> >> > come to her class have never had a communication class in their > >> >> > life, yet > >> >> > 100% of her students have had to communicate. > >> >> > We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life > >> >> > is I > >> >> > guess...? > >> >> > Personally I've found that those who have the most power over > >> >> > people in this > >> >> > world are those with money and those with exceptional > >> >> > communication skills. > >> >> > I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and > >> >> > go > >> >> > to > >> >> > Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the > >> >> > disability > >> >> > center is the best in the west. They also give oober > >> >> > scholarships > >> >> > to those > >> >> > students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand > >> >> > in > >> >> > scholarships*. > >> >> > Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one > >> >> > can get > >> >> > renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every > >> >> > part of > >> >> > school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. > >> >> > Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking > >> >> > problem as we > >> >> > are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's > >> >> > on the > >> >> > radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but > >> >> > besides > >> >> > that, the > >> >> > Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any > >> >> > general college > >> >> > that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. > >> >> > If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, > >> >> > because not > >> >> > only is the blindness support so great, but public > >> >> > transportation > >> >> > is the > >> >> > best in the nation for both those places. > >> >> > But enough on me pushing SF...! > >> >> > Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose > >> >> > of Daily > >> >> > living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the > >> >> > "Vista > >> >> > Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become > >> >> > independent. I > >> >> > love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move > >> >> > out on my > >> >> > own when I was 18. > >> >> > I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and > >> >> > Justin > >> >> > was saying > >> >> > something about attending a program that also teaches living > >> >> > skills. But my > >> >> > teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those > >> >> > who go > >> >> > above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they > >> >> > were taught > >> >> > on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. > >> >> > They expect > >> >> > everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones > >> >> > who > >> >> > generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, > >> >> > if I were > >> >> > you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting > >> >> > him know > >> >> > that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take > >> >> > care of > >> >> > himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but > >> >> > you > >> >> > can let > >> >> > him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than > >> >> > it's time > >> >> > to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want > >> >> > to > >> >> > be sent to > >> >> > one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first > >> >> > hand why he > >> >> > must learn living skills in order to be free. > >> >> > I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until > >> >> > after your > >> >> > Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life > >> >> > to > >> >> > live and > >> >> > you should not be forced to live for two people which you would > >> >> > be doing if > >> >> > you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. > >> >> > > >> >> > I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to > >> >> > prom with a > >> >> > girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a > >> >> > girlfriend till my > >> >> > last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. > >> >> > I didn't > >> >> > have another till a little over a year after that. It was with > >> >> > that second > >> >> > girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the > >> >> > worst things > >> >> > since the invention of eyes. > >> >> > If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear > >> >> > yourself think, > >> >> > let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed > >> >> > together on > >> >> > all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how > >> >> > to dance by > >> >> > your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. > >> >> > The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but > >> >> > the > >> >> > dance > >> >> > itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the > >> >> > romantic part, > >> >> > you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the > >> >> > Blue > >> >> > Danube at > >> >> > the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have > >> >> > a dance to > >> >> > call themselves a dance? > >> >> > anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when > >> >> > you're > >> >> > going through school than the social aspects. In college though, > >> >> > guys become > >> >> > much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just > >> >> > because they > >> >> > have lived and learned much more through their life. > >> >> > Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature > >> >> > enough in > >> >> > some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature > >> >> > when it came > >> >> > to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should > >> >> > never > >> >> > expect > >> >> > people to change. So part of my problem about having a small > >> >> > social life is > >> >> > that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still > >> >> > much to > >> >> > immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. > >> >> > But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm > >> >> > not socially > >> >> > mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the > >> >> > biggest > >> >> > problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves > >> >> > off as good > >> >> > relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was > >> >> > only > >> >> > blind this > >> >> > would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, > >> >> > being able > >> >> > to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one > >> >> > wants to > >> >> > make it in anything other than strictly working in something > >> >> > like > >> >> > the NFB or > >> >> > Goodwill. > >> >> > We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people > >> >> > think and > >> >> > how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted > >> >> > people. Once > >> >> > we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're > >> >> > blind, we > >> >> > should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we > >> >> > are blind. > >> >> > Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they > >> >> > will look no > >> >> > farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being > >> >> > disabled is > >> >> > repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do > >> >> > anything in > >> >> > the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a > >> >> > sighted person > >> >> > first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one > >> >> > is able to > >> >> > make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not > >> >> > repulsive and > >> >> > weird. > >> >> > Thank you, > >> >> > > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: Beth > >> >> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and > >> >> > mentally > >> >> > ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've > >> >> > been > >> >> > called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he > >> >> > could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all > >> >> > kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was > >> >> > told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a > >> >> > genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, > >> >> > superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then > >> >> > again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no > >> >> > roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that > >> >> > with the right support and good friends around me, I could > >> >> > thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, > >> >> > and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own > >> >> > children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens > >> >> > of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good > >> >> > days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a > >> >> > fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the > >> >> > rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could > >> >> > get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with > >> >> > rapids > >> >> > that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest > >> >> > "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages > >> >> > thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that > >> >> > blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. > >> >> > My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly > >> >> > teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I > >> >> > struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off > >> >> > of, > >> >> > and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage > >> >> > fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck > >> >> > paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep > >> >> > track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer > >> >> > for > >> >> > all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's > >> >> > going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What > >> >> > if > >> >> > I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry > >> >> > Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare > >> >> > surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he > >> >> > won't > >> >> > have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel > >> >> > can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. > >> >> > I > >> >> > was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with > >> >> > him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just > >> >> > makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a > >> >> > meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on > >> >> > Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the > >> >> > weird part is that his parents are open to us having a > >> >> > relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not > >> >> > limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer > >> >> > people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live > >> >> > together successfully with all the right supports, and if we > >> >> > can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. > >> >> > But > >> >> > I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to > >> >> > manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to > >> >> > my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason > >> >> > there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old > >> >> > mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. > >> >> > My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so > >> >> > good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like > >> >> > how > >> >> > to go back and look at your payment history every time if you > >> >> > get > >> >> > suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, > >> >> > you > >> >> > have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I > >> >> > may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt > >> >> > Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this > >> >> > month > >> >> > because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to > >> >> > do, > >> >> > I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless > >> >> > you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about > >> >> > disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to > >> >> > learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, > >> >> > blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the > >> >> > parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their > >> >> > flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the > >> >> > same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We > >> >> > wait > >> >> > on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. > >> >> > Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't > >> >> > necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca > >> >> > Salt > >> >> > in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a > >> >> > spoiled > >> >> > literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen > >> >> > Keller > >> >> > was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was > >> >> > deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are > >> >> > ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there > >> >> > were > >> >> > no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. > >> >> > I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to > >> >> > me--hence > >> >> > the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs > >> >> > and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems > >> >> > like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long > >> >> > email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much > >> >> > more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my > >> >> > dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But > >> >> > thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a > >> >> > text > >> >> > message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like > >> >> > yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible > >> >> > phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my > >> >> > ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which > >> >> > is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my > >> >> > friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to > >> >> > change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a > >> >> > good > >> >> > while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I > >> >> > would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan > >> >> > to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job > >> >> > helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim > >> >> > advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services > >> >> > that > >> >> > may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with > >> >> > human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if > >> >> > there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd > >> >> > like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but > >> >> > where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and > >> >> > a > >> >> > good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I > >> >> > have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or > >> >> > through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. > >> >> > To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job > >> >> > helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social > >> >> > work > >> >> > degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to > >> >> > advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, > >> >> > "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not > >> >> > fit > >> >> > to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of > >> >> > nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem > >> >> > to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they > >> >> > don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more > >> >> > to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and > >> >> > they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But > >> >> > what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to > >> >> > gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have > >> >> > because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people > >> >> > are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social > >> >> > workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me > >> >> > keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going > >> >> > through > >> >> > school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you > >> >> > don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a > >> >> > small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. > >> >> > That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer > >> >> > me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things > >> >> > that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I > >> >> > want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such > >> >> > pride > >> >> > a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My > >> >> > mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me > >> >> > into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the > >> >> > school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and > >> >> > summer > >> >> > jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I > >> >> > am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, > >> >> > and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being > >> >> > the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be > >> >> > offered > >> >> > a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where > >> >> > medical > >> >> > experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering > >> >> > degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's > >> >> > interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough > >> >> > blind > >> >> > computer engineers, except those in the underground geek > >> >> > industry > >> >> > as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to > >> >> > communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so > >> >> > to speak. > >> >> > Ok, my rant is over. > >> >> > Beth > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >> > >> >> > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700 > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Hello, > >> >> > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm > >> >> > going to > >> >> > say... > >> >> > It's the educational system that many of these problems come > >> >> > down > >> >> > to. We > >> >> > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to > >> >> > create > >> >> > a new > >> >> > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about > >> >> > disabled > >> >> > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask > >> >> > for > >> >> > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > >> >> > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted > >> >> > person, I would > >> >> > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United > >> >> > States when > >> >> > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get > >> >> > leniency on > >> >> > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get > >> >> > free > >> >> > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so > >> >> > many > >> >> > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > >> >> > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends > >> >> > with your > >> >> > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you > >> >> > are by > >> >> > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to > >> >> > read your > >> >> > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, > >> >> > you're able > >> >> > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for > >> >> > taking > >> >> > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled > >> >> > and that's > >> >> > what you're expected to do! > >> >> > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when > >> >> > you > >> >> > get 100% > >> >> > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people > >> >> > think > >> >> > it's > >> >> > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, > >> >> > (Stereotypically) > >> >> > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time > >> >> > to > >> >> > do school > >> >> > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and > >> >> > instructions > >> >> > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem > >> >> > with your > >> >> > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the > >> >> > web browser, > >> >> > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors > >> >> > class at a > >> >> > community college and you have good grades and you've written > >> >> > one > >> >> > of those > >> >> > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get > >> >> > the > >> >> > super > >> >> > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", > >> >> > you're able > >> >> > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies > >> >> > like Global > >> >> > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job > >> >> > programs > >> >> > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community > >> >> > college or > >> >> > state college you're given a guide through the school because > >> >> > you > >> >> > need a > >> >> > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person. > >> >> > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > >> >> > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years > >> >> > of my life > >> >> > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing > >> >> > parents and > >> >> > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view > >> >> > of school, > >> >> > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was > >> >> > just that > >> >> > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped > >> >> > with the > >> >> > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > >> >> > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's > >> >> > multiple theory > >> >> > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, > >> >> > but thank > >> >> > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, > >> >> > they just > >> >> > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > >> >> > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so > >> >> > I'll get off > >> >> > education. > >> >> > My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all > >> >> > the > >> >> > above things. > >> >> > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings > >> >> > and my mom > >> >> > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind > >> >> > person needs to > >> >> > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years > >> >> > of your > >> >> > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > >> >> > > >> >> > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a > >> >> > tighter mold of > >> >> > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of > >> >> > anyone. > >> >> > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they > >> >> > don't need > >> >> > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme > >> >> > cases of > >> >> > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is > >> >> > put into > >> >> > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! > >> >> > It's like if > >> >> > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people > >> >> > stuck him > >> >> > into special ed just because he can't talk! > >> >> > Where would cosmology be? > >> >> > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their > >> >> > own way into > >> >> > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled > >> >> > that are > >> >> > fighting for these rights. > >> >> > > >> >> > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird > >> >> > it's > >> >> > not them > >> >> > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're > >> >> > weird. It's > >> >> > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through > >> >> > time the same > >> >> > way you are! > >> >> > > >> >> > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason > >> >> > and > >> >> > go for > >> >> > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and > >> >> > that's why > >> >> > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > >> >> > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have > >> >> > probably not > >> >> > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the > >> >> > sighted > >> >> > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level > >> >> > jobs. > >> >> > > >> >> > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything > >> >> > other than > >> >> > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this > >> >> > world likes to > >> >> > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with > >> >> > the crowd. > >> >> > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered > >> >> > weird, those who > >> >> > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise > >> >> > above it are > >> >> > considered great. > >> >> > Thanks, > >> >> > > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: Arielle Silverman > >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi Brandon, > >> >> > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind > >> >> > people > >> >> > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I > >> >> > have > >> >> > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > >> >> > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what > >> >> > a > >> >> > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective > >> >> > tests > >> >> > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > >> >> > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities > >> >> > or > >> >> > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and > >> >> > teachers, > >> >> > or > >> >> > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research > >> >> > showing > >> >> > that > >> >> > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, > >> >> > they > >> >> > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a > >> >> > "self-fulfilling > >> >> > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up > >> >> > "Pygmalian > >> >> > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > >> >> > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids > >> >> > differently > >> >> > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > >> >> > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too > >> >> > often > >> >> > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about > >> >> > how > >> >> > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in > >> >> > ways > >> >> > that make those assumptions come true. > >> >> > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > >> >> > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was > >> >> > intrinsically > >> >> > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were > >> >> > actually > >> >> > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and > >> >> > mental > >> >> > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > >> >> > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply > >> >> > too > >> >> > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities > >> >> > have > >> >> > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I > >> >> > have > >> >> > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop > >> >> > job, > >> >> > I > >> >> > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at > >> >> > minimum > >> >> > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my > >> >> > hands or > >> >> > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > >> >> > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking > >> >> > and > >> >> > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > >> >> > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > >> >> > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is > >> >> > true > >> >> > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > >> >> > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons > >> >> > for > >> >> > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that > >> >> > employers > >> >> > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many > >> >> > fields, > >> >> > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain > >> >> > experience > >> >> > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > >> >> > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your > >> >> > foot in > >> >> > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For > >> >> > example, > >> >> > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, > >> >> > which > >> >> > means you are working under someone else who might not use > >> >> > accessible > >> >> > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > >> >> > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > >> >> > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within > >> >> > an > >> >> > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that > >> >> > aren't > >> >> > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > >> >> > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or > >> >> > scripts > >> >> > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > >> >> > Arielle > >> >> > > >> >> > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > Hello, > >> >> > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like > >> >> > being mentally > >> >> > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can > >> >> > not do. We > >> >> > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like > >> >> > mentally > >> >> > disabled > >> >> > people really are mentally disabled. > >> >> > *That's a mouthful!* > >> >> > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under > >> >> > employed > >> >> > and > >> >> > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of > >> >> > them. But I'm > >> >> > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience > >> >> > that many > >> >> > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and > >> >> > often it's > >> >> > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are > >> >> > pressured into > >> >> > doing jobs they aren?셳 good at. > >> >> > > >> >> > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will > >> >> > in the > >> >> > first > >> >> > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and > >> >> > it's pretty > >> >> > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind > >> >> > person. If > >> >> > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just > >> >> > take a > >> >> > class at their community college and change their job. I believe > >> >> > SSI is > >> >> > for > >> >> > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back > >> >> > up when > >> >> > work > >> >> > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure > >> >> > jobs if I > >> >> > go > >> >> > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral > >> >> > issues, I'm not > >> >> > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > >> >> > Thanks, > >> >> > > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: Arielle Silverman > >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi all, > >> >> > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating > >> >> > items > >> >> > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A > >> >> > customer > >> >> > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably > >> >> > hurt > >> >> > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > >> >> > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches > >> >> > nationally, we > >> >> > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national > >> >> > policy. > >> >> > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll > >> >> > call her > >> >> > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman > >> >> > with > >> >> > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call > >> >> > her C). > >> >> > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know > >> >> > both S > >> >> > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. > >> >> > Apparently C > >> >> > is employed by a program for people with intellectual > >> >> > disabilities > >> >> > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. > >> >> > told > >> >> > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely > >> >> > menial > >> >> > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. > >> >> > However, I > >> >> > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > >> >> > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. > >> >> > The > >> >> > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even > >> >> > had > >> >> > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > >> >> > I don't think I can really judge whether people with > >> >> > disabilities like > >> >> > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending > >> >> > their > >> >> > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge > >> >> > how > >> >> > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like > >> >> > C. > >> >> > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > >> >> > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more > >> >> > freedom. > >> >> > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should > >> >> > be > >> >> > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that > >> >> > blindness > >> >> > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 10 19:55:28 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 15:55:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com> References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC> Hi all, Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the fact that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large nonprofits do it. Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; most press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" or something like it, not people with disabilities. Our focus is usually on blind people. Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. Where is the evidence? I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum wage go away. I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum wage. Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses and are cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to think about. Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and handle it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if they really need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that of other workers. I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised we still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news for you. There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even the legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see the exemptions and loopholes. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But I have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think they mean a boycott in the buying and selling senses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com> <16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: And, the loopholes have got to go! Blessings, Joshua On 6/10/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the fact > that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. > Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. > > Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large > nonprofits do it. > Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; most > press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" or something > > like it, not people with disabilities. > Our focus is usually on blind people. > Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. Where > is the evidence? > I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. > > Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum wage > go away. > I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum wage. > Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses and are > > cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to think about. > Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and handle > it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if they really > > need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that of other workers. > > I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised we > still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news for you. > > There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even the > legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see the > exemptions and loopholes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But > I have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think > they mean a boycott in the buying and selling senses. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very > many people > who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will do > the trick. > Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations > telling them of > the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that > working > without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point > home, point out > that this under minimum wage is a way for the United States to > keep a > handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way for under > minimum wage > to be instituted back in for everyone else. The precedent is > there, so > everyone needs to overturn this law so no one anywhere in the > United States > can ever be paid under minimum wage again. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the > boycott to this > company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put > pressure > on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as > organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end > up > spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages > and they > could even see that people with disabilities and including blind > people are > capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential > employers > see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb > lit up, > and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then > will hire > them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my > personal > opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their > disabled workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a > centralized wage policy and gave their workers fair wages, other > corporations might follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within > Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change > simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill > Industries adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so > that would help with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? > 뾏ARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that > perhaps a benefit to boycotting universally would be a > possibility that Goodwill Industries would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair > wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill > Industries to adopt a universal standard of paying all workers > fair wages, and the approach that you all have mentioned seems to > me to address the decisions in individual locations. I do > understand the point of leading local business leaders to undergo > philosophical change and choose to pay their workers fair wages, > but which item is the top priority: education of individuals or > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? > 뾏ARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 10 20:14:59 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 16:14:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com><000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com><002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Arielle, Excellent points. Too many people are stuck at jobs where their talents are not used just because they're disabled. I believe this is because they take any job they can get so they are not sitting at home. Yes, yes people also act acording to how people expect them to act. I have also seen first hand that entry level jobs are not accessible to the blind applicant. You are right that employers, particularly in a tight economy, want to hire employees with relevant experience. Those entry level jobs needed to gain experience are not accessible as they require manyy paper tasks still such as filing, copying, organizing the papers, sorting mail, distributing the mail. And know what? Many phones now you need to see! They have lights to show you what line the call comes on. I can see the lights. But I cannot see the small screen. So if I needed the screen displaying the incoming call, I'd be out of luck. Unfortunately, people stuck in jobs they hate or a job they are not using their skills is far too common and won't ever go away. We live in a capatalistic society where you have to sell your skills, and for many reasons not everyone is going to effectively sell their skills to a employer willing to hire unexperienced, untrained applicants. Then you add they got a visible disability like blindness, and it gets even harder to sell yourself. As to the boycott, I still have unanswered questions. What is the point? Why pick on goodwill? They do a lot of good as far as I see. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:27 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hi Brandon, These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways that make those assumptions come true. I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields, the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example, before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. Arielle On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally > disabled > people really are mentally disabled. > *That's a mouthful!* > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed > and > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into > doing jobs they aren’t good at. > > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the > first > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a > class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is > for > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when > work > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I > go > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi all, > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C > is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living > expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are > living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in > these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost > sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care > because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or > others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the > intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should > never be said about people who are just blind without other > disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases > this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if > someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be > paid adult wages? It's tricky. > I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment > programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many > workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled > workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in > noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the > competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force > companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale > more fairly. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a >> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we >> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, >> we >> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with >> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of >> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I >> know, >> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Humberto Avila >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to >> this >> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >> pressure >> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up >> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they >> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people >> are >> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers >> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, >> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire >> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >> personal >> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Justin, >> >> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >> universally, >> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair >> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave >> their >> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Justin Salisbury > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > 23:19:15 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >> Goodwill >> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the >> fact >> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal >> fair >> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> ________________________________________ >> From: Justin Salisbury >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >> >> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >> >> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies >> and >> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to >> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries >> would create a centralized >> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? >> >> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to >> adopt >> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach >> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in >> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local >> business >> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers >> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals >> or >> >> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >> want to hear opinions on it. >> >> Justin >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs- >> l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 20:16:03 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 15:16:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com> <16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Minimum wage is not that much. I think it's only fair that all workers get minimum wage. If its not a law for all, people may exploit disabled workers.g Sent from my iPhone On Jun 10, 2012, at 2:59 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > And, the loopholes have got to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/10/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the fact >> that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. >> Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. >> >> Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large >> nonprofits do it. >> Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; most >> press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" or something >> >> like it, not people with disabilities. >> Our focus is usually on blind people. >> Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. Where >> is the evidence? >> I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. >> >> Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum wage >> go away. >> I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum wage. >> Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses and are >> >> cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to think about. >> Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and handle >> it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if they really >> >> need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that of other workers. >> >> I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised we >> still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news for you. >> >> There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even the >> legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see the >> exemptions and loopholes. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sophie Trist >> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But >> I have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think >> they mean a boycott in the buying and selling senses. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, >> I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very >> many people >> who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will do >> the trick. >> Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations >> telling them of >> the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that >> working >> without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point >> home, point out >> that this under minimum wage is a way for the United States to >> keep a >> handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way for under >> minimum wage >> to be instituted back in for everyone else. The precedent is >> there, so >> everyone needs to overturn this law so no one anywhere in the >> United States >> can ever be paid under minimum wage again. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Humberto Avila >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the >> boycott to this >> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >> pressure >> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end >> up >> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages >> and they >> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind >> people are >> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential >> employers >> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb >> lit up, >> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then >> will hire >> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >> personal >> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Justin, >> >> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >> universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their >> disabled workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a >> centralized wage policy and gave their workers fair wages, other >> corporations might follow their lead. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Justin Salisbury > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:19:15 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >> Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change >> simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill >> Industries adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so >> that would help with the education, too. >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> ________________________________________ >> From: Justin Salisbury >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >> >> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >> >> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage >> policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that >> perhaps a benefit to boycotting universally would be a >> possibility that Goodwill Industries would create a centralized >> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair >> wages? >> >> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill >> Industries to adopt a universal standard of paying all workers >> fair wages, and the approach that you all have mentioned seems to >> me to address the decisions in individual locations. I do >> understand the point of leading local business leaders to undergo >> philosophical change and choose to pay their workers fair wages, >> but which item is the top priority: education of individuals or >> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >> want to hear opinions on it. >> >> Justin >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 10 20:19:01 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 15:19:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com> <16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I believe if a disabled person is working as hard as a nondisabled person, they should get the same amount of money! That's fair! Blessings, Joshua On 6/10/12, Sophie Trist wrote: > Minimum wage is not that much. I think it's only fair that all workers get > minimum wage. If its not a law for all, people may exploit disabled > workers.g > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 10, 2012, at 2:59 PM, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> And, the loopholes have got to go! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 6/10/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the >>> fact >>> that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. >>> Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. >>> >>> Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large >>> nonprofits do it. >>> Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; most >>> press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" or >>> something >>> >>> like it, not people with disabilities. >>> Our focus is usually on blind people. >>> Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. >>> Where >>> is the evidence? >>> I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. >>> >>> Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum >>> wage >>> go away. >>> I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum wage. >>> Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses and >>> are >>> >>> cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to think about. >>> Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and >>> handle >>> it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if they >>> really >>> >>> need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that of other >>> workers. >>> >>> I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised we >>> still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news for >>> you. >>> >>> There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even the >>> legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see the >>> exemptions and loopholes. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But >>> I have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think >>> they mean a boycott in the buying and selling senses. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Hello, >>> I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very >>> many people >>> who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will do >>> the trick. >>> Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations >>> telling them of >>> the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that >>> working >>> without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point >>> home, point out >>> that this under minimum wage is a way for the United States to >>> keep a >>> handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way for under >>> minimum wage >>> to be instituted back in for everyone else. The precedent is >>> there, so >>> everyone needs to overturn this law so no one anywhere in the >>> United States >>> can ever be paid under minimum wage again. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Humberto Avila >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the >>> boycott to this >>> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >>> pressure >>> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >>> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end >>> up >>> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages >>> and they >>> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind >>> people are >>> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential >>> employers >>> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb >>> lit up, >>> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then >>> will hire >>> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >>> personal >>> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Justin, >>> >>> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >>> universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their >>> disabled workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a >>> centralized wage policy and gave their workers fair wages, other >>> corporations might follow their lead. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Justin Salisbury >> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" >> Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:19:15 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >>> Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change >>> simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill >>> Industries adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so >>> that would help with the education, too. >>> >>> Justin M. Salisbury >>> Class of 2012 >>> B.A. in Mathematics >>> East Carolina University >>> president at alumni.ecu.edu >>> >>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: Justin Salisbury >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >>> >>> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage >>> policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that >>> perhaps a benefit to boycotting universally would be a >>> possibility that Goodwill Industries would create a centralized >>> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair >>> wages? >>> >>> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill >>> Industries to adopt a universal standard of paying all workers >>> fair wages, and the approach that you all have mentioned seems to >>> me to address the decisions in individual locations. I do >>> understand the point of leading local business leaders to undergo >>> philosophical change and choose to pay their workers fair wages, >>> but which item is the top priority: education of individuals or >>> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >>> want to hear opinions on it. >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> Justin M. Salisbury >>> Class of 2012 >>> B.A. in Mathematics >>> East Carolina University >>> president at alumni.ecu.edu >>> >>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >>> iggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 10 20:34:28 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 16:34:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <91D6530DF77144D2BCBAF54083416E3D@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com><000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com><002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> <91D6530DF77144D2BCBAF54083416E3D@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Brandon, I hope you're being sarcastic. Okay, I don't think we have so much advantage as you say we do. I do agree that we have to "walk with the crowd" and yes we need to assimulate into our culture. But I think you oversimplify why people do not get entry level jobs. I could write a book on this, but I believe you will see for yourself when you try and find entry level work. You said, "Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs." Wait a minute! Haven't you seen barriers in school? Inaccessible handouts, textbooks, inaccessible websites? What about group work when your peers don't read you the worksheets? Come on. Its not easy in class. And what if your professor doesn't read you the stuff on the board, even though you had a meeting with him about your accomodations! Well, Brandon, the same barriers in college exist at work, even magnified. You have to read mail and see numerous screens. You can label it, but some of it cannot be accessible if you cannot read the ever changing screen. Fax machines, printers, even phones now have screens! you have visual tasks on computers such as document layout, creating flyers, using inaccessible software like microsoft publisher. Know what? I've seen many job ads with microsoft publisher listed as a qualification. Not to mention, Microsoft is producing products that are less and less accessible. And NFB does nothing about it! Access isn't accessible either. Tasks in entry level jobs include filing, copying, collating, sorting mail, distributing mail, cleaning out files and shredding the old documents etc etc. A blind person couldn't do these tasks. Maybe the copying, if the copier were labeled. So it’s a complex issue. We're not going to get rid of workshops or menial jobs. So, we might as well improve wages and conditions for workers who do those jobs. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 2:57 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hello, I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm going to say... It's the educational system that many of these problems come down to. We have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to create a new style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about disabled students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask for accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted person, I would not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United States when going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get leniency on all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get free schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so many scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends with your teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you are by nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to read your books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, you're able to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for taking advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled and that's what you're expected to do! Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when you get 100% on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people think it's amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, (Stereotypically) blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time to do school work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and instructions because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem with your online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the web browser, state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors class at a community college and you have good grades and you've written one of those inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get the super arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", you're able to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies like Global explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job programs like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community college or state college you're given a guide through the school because you need a mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person... I should probably stop, but you get the idea... It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years of my life and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing parents and didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view of school, but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was just that either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped with the skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's multiple theory of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, but thank goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, they just need to know how they learn and learn that way! I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so I'll get off education. My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the above things. I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings and my mom became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind person needs to know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years of your life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a tighter mold of what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of anyone. Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they don't need special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme cases of autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is put into that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! It's like if Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people stuck him into special ed just because he can't talk! Where would cosmology be? Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their own way into sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled that are fighting for these rights. I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird it's not them that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're weird. It's like you thinking the person in front of you is going through time the same way you are! Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason and go for emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and that's why we have to assimilate into the sighted world. Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs. Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything other than blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this world likes to think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with the crowd. Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered weird, those who learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise above it are considered great. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hi Brandon, These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways that make those assumptions come true. I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields, the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example, before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. Arielle On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally > disabled > people really are mentally disabled. > *That's a mouthful!* > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed > and > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into > doing jobs they aren’t good at. > > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the > first > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a > class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is > for > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when > work > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I > go > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi all, > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C > is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living > expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are > living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in > these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost > sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care > because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or > others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the > intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should > never be said about people who are just blind without other > disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases > this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if > someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be > paid adult wages? It's tricky. > I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment > programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many > workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled > workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in > noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the > competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force > companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale > more fairly. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a >> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we >> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, >> we >> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with >> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of >> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I >> know, >> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Humberto Avila >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to >> this >> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >> pressure >> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up >> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they >> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people >> are >> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers >> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, >> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire >> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >> personal >> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Justin, >> >> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >> universally, >> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair >> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave >> their >> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Justin Salisbury > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > 23:19:15 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >> Goodwill >> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the >> fact >> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal >> fair >> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> ________________________________________ >> From: Justin Salisbury >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >> >> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >> >> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies >> and >> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to >> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries >> would create a centralized >> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? >> >> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to >> adopt >> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach >> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in >> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local >> business >> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers >> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals >> or >> >> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >> want to hear opinions on it. >> >> Justin >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs- >> l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Jun 10 20:44:12 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 15:44:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com> <000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com> <002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com> <91D6530DF77144D2BCBAF54083416E3D@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Ashley! You'd make a good president for the NFB! Have you thought of calling Dr Maurer about this? It needs to happen, sooner, rather than later! Thanks, Joshua On 6/10/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Brandon, > I hope you're being sarcastic. Okay, I don't think we have so much advantage > as you say we do. > I do agree that we have to "walk with the crowd" and yes we need to > assimulate into our culture. > > > But I think you oversimplify why people do not get > entry level jobs. > I could write a book on this, but I believe > you will see for yourself when you try and find entry level work. > > You said, > "Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs." > > Wait a minute! Haven't you seen barriers in school? Inaccessible handouts, > textbooks, inaccessible websites? What about group work when your peers > don't read you the worksheets? Come on. Its not easy in class. And what if > your professor doesn't read you the stuff on the board, even though you had > a meeting with him about your accomodations! Well, Brandon, the same > barriers in college exist at work, even magnified. You have to read mail and > see numerous screens. You can label it, but some of it cannot be accessible > if you cannot read the ever changing screen. > Fax machines, printers, even phones now have screens! you have > visual tasks on computers such as document layout, creating flyers, using > inaccessible software like microsoft publisher. Know what? > I've seen many job ads with microsoft publisher listed as a qualification. > Not to mention, Microsoft is producing products that are less and less > accessible. And NFB does nothing about it! Access isn't accessible either. > Tasks in entry level jobs include filing, copying, collating, sorting mail, > distributing mail, cleaning out files and shredding the old documents etc > etc. A blind person couldn't do these tasks. Maybe the copying, if the > copier were labeled. > > So it’s a complex issue. We're not going to get rid of workshops or menial > jobs. So, we might as well improve wages and conditions for workers who do > those jobs. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brandon Keith Biggs > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 2:57 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm going to > say... > It's the educational system that many of these problems come down to. We > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to create a new > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about disabled > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask for > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted person, I would > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United States when > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get leniency on > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get free > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so many > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends with your > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you are by > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to read your > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, you're able > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for taking > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled and that's > what you're expected to do! > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when you get 100% > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people think it's > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, (Stereotypically) > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time to do school > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and instructions > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem with your > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the web browser, > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors class at a > community college and you have good grades and you've written one of those > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get the super > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", you're able > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies like Global > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job programs > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community college or > state college you're given a guide through the school because you need a > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person... > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years of my life > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing parents and > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view of school, > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was just that > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped with the > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's multiple theory > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, but thank > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, they just > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so I'll get off > education. > My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the above things. > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings and my mom > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind person needs to > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years of your > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a tighter mold of > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of anyone. > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they don't need > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme cases of > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is put into > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! It's like if > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people stuck him > into special ed just because he can't talk! > Where would cosmology be? > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their own way into > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled that are > fighting for these rights. > > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird it's not them > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're weird. It's > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through time the same > way you are! > > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason and go for > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and that's why > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs. > > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything other than > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this world likes to > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with the crowd. > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered weird, those who > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise above it are > considered great. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi Brandon, > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways > that make those assumptions come true. > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields, > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example, > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which > means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally >> disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We >> also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally >> disabled >> people really are mentally disabled. >> *That's a mouthful!* >> I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed >> and >> jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm >> not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many >> mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's >> because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into >> doing jobs they aren’t good at. >> >> I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the >> first >> place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty >> easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If >> your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a >> class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is >> for >> college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when >> work >> isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I >> go >> into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not >> sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hi all, >> I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items >> like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer >> boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt >> them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very >> persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we >> make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. >> Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her >> S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with >> Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). >> Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S >> and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C >> is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities >> similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told >> me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial >> job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I >> don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived >> rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The >> program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had >> independent access to the money she earned at her job. >> I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like >> C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their >> own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how >> independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. >> would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and >> higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. >> I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be >> paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness >> by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I >> do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living >> expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are >> living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in >> these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost >> sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care >> because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or >> others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the >> intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should >> never be said about people who are just blind without other >> disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases >> this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if >> someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be >> paid adult wages? It's tricky. >> I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment >> programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many >> workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled >> workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others >> will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in >> noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the >> competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force >> companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale >> more fairly. >> Arielle >> >> On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a >>> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we >>> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, >>> we >>> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with >>> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of >>> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I >>> know, >>> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Humberto Avila >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to >>> this >>> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >>> pressure >>> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >>> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up >>> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they >>> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people >>> are >>> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers >>> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, >>> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire >>> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >>> personal >>> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Justin, >>> >>> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >>> universally, >>> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair >>> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave >>> their >>> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Justin Salisbury >> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" >> 23:19:15 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >>> Goodwill >>> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the >>> fact >>> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal >>> fair >>> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. >>> >>> Justin M. Salisbury >>> Class of 2012 >>> B.A. in Mathematics >>> East Carolina University >>> president at alumni.ecu.edu >>> >>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: Justin Salisbury >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >>> >>> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies >>> and >>> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to >>> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries >>> would create a centralized >>> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? >>> >>> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to >>> adopt >>> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach >>> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in >>> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local >>> business >>> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers >>> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals >>> or >>> >>> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >>> want to hear opinions on it. >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> Justin M. Salisbury >>> Class of 2012 >>> B.A. in Mathematics >>> East Carolina University >>> president at alumni.ecu.edu >>> >>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs- >>> l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 10 20:47:04 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 16:47:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <7D881DF779EA42598BC56B126CEE6D30@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <4fd45474.65b4ec0a.360b.05c2@mx.google.com> <7D881DF779EA42598BC56B126CEE6D30@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <0518CE7FE33041DDB837E7B9487A09EE@OwnerPC> Hi, Personal finance is not taught in public schools. I come from an affluent county and we are rated one of the best in the nation and our schools did not have that class. They had economics as an elective though. Personal finance and socializing are something that one is supposed to learn on their own through experience. We are at a disadvantage as we do not see how others act or what they wear to certain events. But we can get that through asking and observing with other senses. Beth, Brandon gave good advice. See that Jason learns living skills and other coping skills before you live with him! And don't think of marriage til you are out of school. Anyway, good points, but lets change subject lines as this has nothing to do with good will. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 11:53 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hello Beth, let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have enough reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish. If you've read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst. They shelter you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor definitely has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to school and get that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my graduation! If money is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can fully cover the cost of school, minus housing and food. Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people that I know about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business section and I was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and investing. I don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to really make something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one of those things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking and socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about how to find banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how to budget effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food and clothing, and no one needs any help on running a family in school. My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the students that come to her class have never had a communication class in their life, yet 100% of her students have had to communicate. We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life is I guess...? Personally I've found that those who have the most power over people in this world are those with money and those with exceptional communication skills. I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and go to Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the disability center is the best in the west. They also give oober scholarships to those students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand in scholarships*. Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one can get renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every part of school, except for $47 by just being on SSI. Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking problem as we are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's on the radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but besides that, the Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any general college that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies. If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY, because not only is the blindness support so great, but public transportation is the best in the nation for both those places. But enough on me pushing SF...! Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose of Daily living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the "Vista Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become independent. I love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move out on my own when I was 18. I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and Justin was saying something about attending a program that also teaches living skills. But my teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those who go above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they were taught on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible. They expect everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones who generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth, if I were you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting him know that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take care of himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but you can let him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than it's time to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want to be sent to one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first hand why he must learn living skills in order to be free. I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until after your Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life to live and you should not be forced to live for two people which you would be doing if you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now. I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to prom with a girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a girlfriend till my last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later. I didn't have another till a little over a year after that. It was with that second girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the worst things since the invention of eyes. If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear yourself think, let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed together on all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how to dance by your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell. The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but the dance itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the romantic part, you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the Blue Danube at the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have a dance to call themselves a dance? anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when you're going through school than the social aspects. In college though, guys become much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just because they have lived and learned much more through their life. Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature enough in some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature when it came to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should never expect people to change. So part of my problem about having a small social life is that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still much to immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work. But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm not socially mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the biggest problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves off as good relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was only blind this would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture, being able to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one wants to make it in anything other than strictly working in something like the NFB or Goodwill. We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people think and how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted people. Once we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're blind, we should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we are blind. Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they will look no farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being disabled is repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do anything in the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a sighted person first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one is able to make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not repulsive and weird. Thank you, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Beth Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and mentally ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've been called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133, superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that with the right support and good friends around me, I could thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job, and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with rapids that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people. My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off of, and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer for all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What if I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he won't have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff. I was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the weird part is that his parents are open to us having a relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live together successfully with all the right supports, and if we can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by. But I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have. My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like how to go back and look at your payment history every time if you get suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay, you have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this month because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to do, I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times, blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We wait on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem. Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca Salt in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a spoiled literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen Keller was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there were no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen. I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to me--hence the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a text message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a good while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services that may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and a good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world. To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social work degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like, "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not fit to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going through school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom. That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such pride a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and summer jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida, and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be offered a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where medical experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough blind computer engineers, except those in the underground geek industry as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so to speak. Ok, my rant is over. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Hello, It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally disabled people really are mentally disabled. *That's a mouthful!* I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed and jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into doing jobs they aren?�t good at. I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the first place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is for college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when work isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I go into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hi all, I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had independent access to the money she earned at her job. I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should never be said about people who are just blind without other disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be paid adult wages? It's tricky. I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale more fairly. Arielle On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, we can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I know, it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. Just my thoughts, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Avila Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Justin, I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. ----- Original Message ----- From: Justin Salisbury References: <4fd4cae6.106a650a.37b9.ffffe304@mx.google.com> Message-ID: All, There are some good things about schools for the blind. IMO we cannot generalize as quality varies from school to school. I think a huge factor in the lack of quality of them is money and money. In fact some are shut down with budget cuts. So, be careful about saying all are bad. Change subject lines too. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:46 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Sophie! You don't know how bad schools for the blind are! Good grief! When I attended the Jumpstart program, at Arkansas School for the Blind, I was sad to see kids my age, who should've graduated from high school, who had straight A's, be held back! I asked around, and the oldest graduates from the school, in 2007, was 25 years old! That's what one former student told me. Sad! Blessings, Joshua On 6/10/12, Sophie Trist wrote: > I was very fortunate to have a good TVI for most of my life, but > when Hurricane Katrina hit, I was forced to leave home and attend > a school for the blind. I was shocked at how horrible it was. On > my first day there, I was taken to a VI class and asked to read a > braille book so that they could evaluate my skills. Within five > minutes, they sent me right back to class. The TVI's there had > nothing new to teach me. I was in a third/fourth-grade class, and > the work was first-grade level. This boils down to we need better > TVI's and more of them. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:11:25 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Wow! > You're right! > I didn't have a real TVI, for 6/12th grade. > My TVI, (So called,) was a special Ed teacher, who ended up > getting > trained as a TVI. > If she wasn't there to help me, guess where I was forced to go! > Yup! > Special Ed classes! > Of course, I enjoyed it, because the instructor knew I didn't > need to > be there, so she allowed me to help her with the kids, that > actually > needed the help. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > wrote: > Hello, > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm > going to > say... > It's the educational system that many of these problems come > down to. We > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to > create a new > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about > disabled > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask > for > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted > person, I would > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United > States when > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get > leniency on > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get > free > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so > many > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends > with your > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you > are by > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to > read your > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, > you're able > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for > taking > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled > and that's > what you're expected to do! > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when > you get 100% > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people > think it's > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, > (Stereotypically) > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time > to do school > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and > instructions > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem > with your > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the > web browser, > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors > class at a > community college and you have good grades and you've written > one of those > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get > the super > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", > you're able > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies > like Global > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job > programs > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community > college or > state college you're given a guide through the school because > you need a > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person... > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years > of my life > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing > parents and > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view > of school, > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was > just that > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped > with the > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's > multiple theory > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, > but thank > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, > they just > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so > I'll get off > education. > My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the > above things. > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings > and my mom > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind > person needs to > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years > of your > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a > tighter mold of > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of > anyone. > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they > don't need > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme > cases of > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is > put into > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! > It's like if > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people > stuck him > into special ed just because he can't talk! > Where would cosmology be? > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their > own way into > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled > that are > fighting for these rights. > > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird > it's not them > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're > weird. It's > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through > time the same > way you are! > > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason > and go for > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and > that's why > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have > probably not > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the > sighted > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level > jobs. > > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything > other than > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this > world likes to > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with > the crowd. > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered > weird, those who > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise > above it are > considered great. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi Brandon, > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind > people > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I > have > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what > a > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective > tests > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities > or > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and > teachers, or > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research > showing that > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, > they > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a > "self-fulfilling > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up > "Pygmalian > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids > differently > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too > often > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about > how > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in > ways > that make those assumptions come true. > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was > intrinsically > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were > actually > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and > mental > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply > too > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities > have > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I > have > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop > job, I > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at > minimum > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my > hands or > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking > and > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is > true > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons > for > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that > employers > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many > fields, > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain > experience > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your > foot in > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For > example, > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, > which > means you are working under someone else who might not use > accessible > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within > an > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that > aren't > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or > scripts > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > wrote: > Hello, > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like > being mentally > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can > not do. We > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like > mentally > disabled > people really are mentally disabled. > *That's a mouthful!* > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under > employed > and > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of > them. But I'm > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience > that many > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and > often it's > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are > pressured into > doing jobs they aren’t good at. > > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will > in the > first > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and > it's pretty > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind > person. If > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just > take a > class at their community college and change their job. I believe > SSI is > for > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back > up when > work > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure > jobs if I > go > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral > issues, I'm not > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi all, > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating > items > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A > customer > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably > hurt > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches > nationally, we > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national > policy. > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll > call her > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman > with > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call > her C). > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know > both S > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. > Apparently C > is employed by a program for people with intellectual > disabilities > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. > told > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely > menial > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. > However, I > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. > The > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even > had > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > I don't think I can really judge whether people with > disabilities like > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending > their > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge > how > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like > C. > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more > freedom. > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should > be > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that > blindness > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. > However, I > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have > living > expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are > living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people > in > these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that > almost > sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial > care > because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or > others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the > intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this > should > never be said about people who are just blind without other > disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some > cases > this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. > But if > someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should > they be > paid adult wages? It's tricky. > I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive > employment > programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many > workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of > disabled > workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and > others > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in > noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the > competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also > force > companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their > payscale > more fairly. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, > there's a > lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even > if we > overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that > we do, > we > can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with > disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the > attidudes of > society, including employers, about the competence of blind > people. I > know, > it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. > > Just my thoughts, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the > boycott to > this > company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to > put > pressure > on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well > as > organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end > up > spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages > and they > could even see that people with disabilities and including blind > people > are > capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential > employers > see this change happening, those employers will have a light > bulb lit up, > and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then > will hire > them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from > my > personal > opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, > it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers > fair > wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and > gave > their > workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 2012 > 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers > within > Goodwill > Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply > by the > fact > that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a > universal > fair > wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the > education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed > citizens > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever > has.? > 뾏ARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies > and > rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a > benefit to > boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill > Industries > would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers > fair wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill > Industries to > adopt > a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the > approach > that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions > in > individual locations. I do understand the point of leading > local > business > leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their > workers > fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of > individuals > or > > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed > citizens > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever > has.? > 뾏ARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs- > l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > 0students.pccua.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 10 20:57:04 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 16:57:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com><16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <635B0981B8E449A8893BC4C79A7DB47D@OwnerPC> Sophie, Actually, it is a lot. Keep in mind federal minimum wage is different than some states. Some states have their own minimum wages. Minimum wage was raised a few years ago. It is now $7.25. When I was growing up it was 5 something. I'd say this is a lot especially if a disabled person is also receiving SSI and has no living expenses. -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 4:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Minimum wage is not that much. I think it's only fair that all workers get minimum wage. If its not a law for all, people may exploit disabled workers.g Sent from my iPhone On Jun 10, 2012, at 2:59 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > And, the loopholes have got to go! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/10/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi all, >> Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the >> fact >> that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. >> Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. >> >> Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large >> nonprofits do it. >> Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; most >> press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" or >> something >> >> like it, not people with disabilities. >> Our focus is usually on blind people. >> Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. >> Where >> is the evidence? >> I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. >> >> Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum >> wage >> go away. >> I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum wage. >> Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses and >> are >> >> cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to think about. >> Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and >> handle >> it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if they >> really >> >> need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that of other >> workers. >> >> I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised we >> still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news for >> you. >> >> There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even the >> legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see the >> exemptions and loopholes. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sophie Trist >> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But >> I have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think >> they mean a boycott in the buying and selling senses. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, >> I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very >> many people >> who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will do >> the trick. >> Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations >> telling them of >> the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that >> working >> without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point >> home, point out >> that this under minimum wage is a way for the United States to >> keep a >> handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way for under >> minimum wage >> to be instituted back in for everyone else. The precedent is >> there, so >> everyone needs to overturn this law so no one anywhere in the >> United States >> can ever be paid under minimum wage again. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Humberto Avila >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the >> boycott to this >> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >> pressure >> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end >> up >> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages >> and they >> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind >> people are >> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential >> employers >> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb >> lit up, >> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then >> will hire >> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >> personal >> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Justin, >> >> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >> universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their >> disabled workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a >> centralized wage policy and gave their workers fair wages, other >> corporations might follow their lead. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Justin Salisbury > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:19:15 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >> Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change >> simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill >> Industries adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so >> that would help with the education, too. >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> ________________________________________ >> From: Justin Salisbury >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >> >> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >> >> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage >> policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that >> perhaps a benefit to boycotting universally would be a >> possibility that Goodwill Industries would create a centralized >> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair >> wages? >> >> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill >> Industries to adopt a universal standard of paying all workers >> fair wages, and the approach that you all have mentioned seems to >> me to address the decisions in individual locations. I do >> understand the point of leading local business leaders to undergo >> philosophical change and choose to pay their workers fair wages, >> but which item is the top priority: education of individuals or >> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >> want to hear opinions on it. >> >> Justin >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 10 21:08:12 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:08:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com><000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com><002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com><91D6530DF77144D2BCBAF54083416E3D@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Um, no Josh. if you read my messages, I question some of our advocacy such as advocating for minimum wages for all disabled persons. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 4:44 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Ashley! You'd make a good president for the NFB! Have you thought of calling Dr Maurer about this? It needs to happen, sooner, rather than later! Thanks, Joshua On 6/10/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Brandon, > I hope you're being sarcastic. Okay, I don't think we have so much > advantage > as you say we do. > I do agree that we have to "walk with the crowd" and yes we need to > assimulate into our culture. > > > But I think you oversimplify why people do not get > entry level jobs. > I could write a book on this, but I believe > you will see for yourself when you try and find entry level work. > > You said, > "Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs." > > Wait a minute! Haven't you seen barriers in school? Inaccessible handouts, > textbooks, inaccessible websites? What about group work when your peers > don't read you the worksheets? Come on. Its not easy in class. And what > if > your professor doesn't read you the stuff on the board, even though you > had > a meeting with him about your accomodations! Well, Brandon, the same > barriers in college exist at work, even magnified. You have to read mail > and > see numerous screens. You can label it, but some of it cannot be > accessible > if you cannot read the ever changing screen. > Fax machines, printers, even phones now have screens! you have > visual tasks on computers such as document layout, creating flyers, using > inaccessible software like microsoft publisher. Know what? > I've seen many job ads with microsoft publisher listed as a qualification. > Not to mention, Microsoft is producing products that are less and less > accessible. And NFB does nothing about it! Access isn't accessible either. > Tasks in entry level jobs include filing, copying, collating, sorting > mail, > distributing mail, cleaning out files and shredding the old documents etc > etc. A blind person couldn't do these tasks. Maybe the copying, if the > copier were labeled. > > So it’s a complex issue. We're not going to get rid of workshops or menial > jobs. So, we might as well improve wages and conditions for workers who do > those jobs. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brandon Keith Biggs > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 2:57 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm going to > say... > It's the educational system that many of these problems come down to. We > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to create a new > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about disabled > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask for > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted person, I would > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United States > when > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get leniency > on > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get free > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so many > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends with your > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you are by > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to read your > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, you're > able > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for taking > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled and that's > what you're expected to do! > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when you get 100% > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people think it's > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, (Stereotypically) > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time to do > school > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and > instructions > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem with your > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the web > browser, > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors class at a > community college and you have good grades and you've written one of those > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get the super > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", you're > able > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies like > Global > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job programs > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community college > or > state college you're given a guide through the school because you need a > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person... > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years of my > life > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing parents > and > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view of school, > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was just that > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped with the > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's multiple theory > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, but thank > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, they just > need to know how they learn and learn that way! > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so I'll get off > education. > My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the above > things. > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings and my mom > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind person needs > to > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years of your > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. > > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a tighter mold of > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of anyone. > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they don't need > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme cases of > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is put into > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! It's like if > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people stuck him > into special ed just because he can't talk! > Where would cosmology be? > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their own way > into > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled that are > fighting for these rights. > > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird it's not them > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're weird. It's > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through time the > same > way you are! > > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason and go for > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and that's why > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs. > > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything other than > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this world likes > to > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with the > crowd. > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered weird, those > who > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise above it are > considered great. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi Brandon, > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways > that make those assumptions come true. > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields, > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example, > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which > means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being >> mentally >> disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. >> We >> also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally >> disabled >> people really are mentally disabled. >> *That's a mouthful!* >> I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed >> and >> jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm >> not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many >> mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's >> because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into >> doing jobs they aren’t good at. >> >> I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the >> first >> place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty >> easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. >> If >> your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a >> class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is >> for >> college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when >> work >> isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I >> go >> into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not >> sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hi all, >> I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items >> like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer >> boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt >> them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very >> persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we >> make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. >> Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her >> S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with >> Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). >> Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S >> and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C >> is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities >> similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told >> me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial >> job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I >> don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived >> rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The >> program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had >> independent access to the money she earned at her job. >> I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like >> C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their >> own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how >> independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. >> would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and >> higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. >> I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be >> paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness >> by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I >> do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living >> expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are >> living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in >> these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost >> sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care >> because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or >> others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the >> intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should >> never be said about people who are just blind without other >> disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases >> this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if >> someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be >> paid adult wages? It's tricky. >> I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment >> programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many >> workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled >> workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others >> will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in >> noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the >> competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force >> companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale >> more fairly. >> Arielle >> >> On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >>> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's >>> a >>> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we >>> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, >>> we >>> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with >>> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of >>> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I >>> know, >>> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. >>> >>> Just my thoughts, >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Humberto Avila >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to >>> this >>> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >>> pressure >>> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >>> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up >>> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and >>> they >>> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people >>> are >>> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential >>> employers >>> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit >>> up, >>> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire >>> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >>> personal >>> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Justin, >>> >>> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >>> universally, >>> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair >>> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave >>> their >>> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Justin Salisbury >> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" >> 23:19:15 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >>> Goodwill >>> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the >>> fact >>> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal >>> fair >>> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. >>> >>> Justin M. Salisbury >>> Class of 2012 >>> B.A. in Mathematics >>> East Carolina University >>> president at alumni.ecu.edu >>> >>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: Justin Salisbury >>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >>> >>> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >>> >>> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies >>> and >>> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to >>> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries >>> would create a centralized >>> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? >>> >>> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to >>> adopt >>> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach >>> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in >>> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local >>> business >>> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers >>> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals >>> or >>> >>> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >>> want to hear opinions on it. >>> >>> Justin >>> >>> Justin M. Salisbury >>> Class of 2012 >>> B.A. in Mathematics >>> East Carolina University >>> president at alumni.ecu.edu >>> >>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs- >>> l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 22:04:32 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 15:04:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Assimilation into sighted culture In-Reply-To: References: <4fd3ff05.c24aec0a.7f11.ffff9d05@mx.google.com><000701cd46ae$2d6e2760$884a7620$@gmail.com><002b01cd46b5$351c6290$9f5527b0$@gmail.com><91D6530DF77144D2BCBAF54083416E3D@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <43C61344954341DC80E2D70458B2A934@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, I'm not sure what you're considering entry level work... There are so many jobs that are accessible, AKA sailsman, working at a store being someone who shows people around to different products, working at subway, being in community theater, working at a small business doing just about anything on the computer or in the store, being a fundraiser for a nonprofit, being a research aid in a psychology clinic, washing dishes at a restaurant, singing in church choirs, being assistant director at a camp, being a counselor at a camp, being a Parra educator, being a contract teacher, childcare and not to menschen the endless options of making your own business. All of witch take anywhere from no education to a BA. If you get a masters you get a list that is even larger. And yes, I've done most of the above, as well as some more exotic jobs not listed above. The only class that has really given me trouble is my music theory class, where my teacher places about 6 pieces of music a day under the overhead and analyzes it. It's a totally ineffective way of teaching for me, so I had to find what worked best for me. I found that if I started composing with the chord structures he talked about, I learned my material super well and I was able to ask questions while I was doing it, so I understood the concepts. MS publisher is one of many programs you can use to create fliers. I've not researched the topic, but LeTex is accessible and you can make perfectly good flyers in there. But frankly, what is a blind person doing making fliers? They can do it, but it's not the best application of their time... Why not get one of the above jobs? I think accessibility is a big issue, but presentation is the other 90% of it. If someone has an applicant who they really like, they will want to hire that person, even if there is one small thing they may have difficulty doing. Being an exceptional communicator and likeable person is so much of what people look for when they are interviewing someone for a job. Sexual attraction is another major thing. If one doesn't have both, they will probably not get the job. That's sadly the real world and skills are not everything. Humans have emotions and are full of ignorance, especially most sighted people about blindness. Most employers and teachers don't think of solutions to problems, that's the employee's or student's job. The worker has to think of something that will be easy for both. For example: I went into my astronomy class and the first thing my teacher said to me was "You won't be able to take the pop quizzes." He said I could weight my midterm and final with more points, but I said no, I want to take your pop quizzes, I love pop quizzes! But my teacher had no idea how I could take a pop quiz being blind. So I got a flash drive from the bookstore and gave it to him with my name on it. I said that every time we have a pop quiz, he copy the word document of the quiz onto the flash drive and I can give it to him when he collects the other student's midterm. He was totally free to also take a look at my screen to see if I have any other documents up and I will be just like the other students when it comes to fairness. And what do you know, he likes this system so much that instead of having me take the midterm and put it on a scantron, he just put it on the flash drive! The same teacher also said that I had to have someone in the class to give me notes and describe to me the pictures. We designated someone, and we are in our last few weeks and what do you know? I'm pulling an easy A with out ever talking to that person once. So teachers and employers aren’t implacable gods who never change, they like things to be easy and they like things to work. The above teacher was known as the worst teacher in the school about accessibility and he's the biggest stickler I've ever seen about anything different than his traditional pattern. So I'm sure I'll find worse in my life, but jobs I'm told I can't do and things I may be required to do that are inaccessible are challenges for me as a blind person to assimilate into sighted culture. It probably helps that I'm always smiling and I'm always cheerful about doing everything when my teacher is watching. This method is by no means flawless, but it's lots better than using the law to make things work. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Brandon, I hope you're being sarcastic. Okay, I don't think we have so much advantage as you say we do. I do agree that we have to "walk with the crowd" and yes we need to assimulate into our culture. But I think you oversimplify why people do not get entry level jobs. I could write a book on this, but I believe you will see for yourself when you try and find entry level work. You said, "Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs." Wait a minute! Haven't you seen barriers in school? Inaccessible handouts, textbooks, inaccessible websites? What about group work when your peers don't read you the worksheets? Come on. Its not easy in class. And what if your professor doesn't read you the stuff on the board, even though you had a meeting with him about your accomodations! Well, Brandon, the same barriers in college exist at work, even magnified. You have to read mail and see numerous screens. You can label it, but some of it cannot be accessible if you cannot read the ever changing screen. Fax machines, printers, even phones now have screens! you have visual tasks on computers such as document layout, creating flyers, using inaccessible software like microsoft publisher. Know what? I've seen many job ads with microsoft publisher listed as a qualification. Not to mention, Microsoft is producing products that are less and less accessible. And NFB does nothing about it! Access isn't accessible either. Tasks in entry level jobs include filing, copying, collating, sorting mail, distributing mail, cleaning out files and shredding the old documents etc etc. A blind person couldn't do these tasks. Maybe the copying, if the copier were labeled. So it’s a complex issue. We're not going to get rid of workshops or menial jobs. So, we might as well improve wages and conditions for workers who do those jobs. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 2:57 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hello, I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm going to say... It's the educational system that many of these problems come down to. We have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to create a new style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about disabled students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask for accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad! Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted person, I would not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United States when going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get leniency on all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get free schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so many scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends with your teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you are by nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to read your books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, you're able to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for taking advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled and that's what you're expected to do! Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when you get 100% on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people think it's amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, (Stereotypically) blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time to do school work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and instructions because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem with your online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the web browser, state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors class at a community college and you have good grades and you've written one of those inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get the super arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", you're able to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies like Global explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job programs like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community college or state college you're given a guide through the school because you need a mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person... I should probably stop, but you get the idea... It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years of my life and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing parents and didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view of school, but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was just that either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped with the skills or technology that was keeping me from learning. There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's multiple theory of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, but thank goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, they just need to know how they learn and learn that way! I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so I'll get off education. My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the above things. I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings and my mom became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind person needs to know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years of your life there getting your music degree or dentist degree. Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a tighter mold of what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of anyone. Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they don't need special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme cases of autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is put into that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! It's like if Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people stuck him into special ed just because he can't talk! Where would cosmology be? Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their own way into sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled that are fighting for these rights. I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird it's not them that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're weird. It's like you thinking the person in front of you is going through time the same way you are! Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason and go for emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and that's why we have to assimilate into the sighted world. Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs. Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything other than blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this world likes to think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with the crowd. Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered weird, those who learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise above it are considered great. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hi Brandon, These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description. The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways that make those assumptions come true. I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at. Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields, the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example, before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts that aren't accessible, this will limit job options. Arielle On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally > disabled > people really are mentally disabled. > *That's a mouthful!* > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed > and > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience that many > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are pressured into > doing jobs they aren’t good at. > > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the > first > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a > class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is > for > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when > work > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I > go > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral issues, I'm not > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hi all, > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy. > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C). > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C > is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had > independent access to the money she earned at her job. > I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C. > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom. > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living > expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are > living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in > these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost > sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care > because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or > others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the > intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should > never be said about people who are just blind without other > disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases > this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if > someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be > paid adult wages? It's tricky. > I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment > programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many > workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled > workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in > noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the > competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force > companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale > more fairly. > Arielle > > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a >> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we >> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, >> we >> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with >> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of >> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I >> know, >> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Humberto Avila >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to >> this >> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >> pressure >> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as >> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up >> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they >> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people >> are >> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers >> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up, >> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire >> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my >> personal >> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Justin, >> >> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >> universally, >> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair >> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave >> their >> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Justin Salisbury > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > 23:19:15 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >> Goodwill >> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the >> fact >> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal >> fair >> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too. >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> ________________________________________ >> From: Justin Salisbury >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >> >> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >> >> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies >> and >> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to >> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries >> would create a centralized >> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages? >> >> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to >> adopt >> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach >> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in >> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading local >> business >> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers >> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals >> or >> >> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >> want to hear opinions on it. >> >> Justin >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens >> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs- >> l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 23:45:02 2012 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Gmail) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:45:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Message-ID: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com> Good afternoon, One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention for the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are complementary rather than mutually exclusive. We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and most visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers with disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits to create employment opportunities for blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the management of these non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output justifying the minimum wage in the market? I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the wage to give them the dignity of equal treatment under the law. I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government contracting should have to fill a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands now, there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are completely correct. The boycott of Good Will is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us to keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost realistically going to lead to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker currently makes $1.50 an hour. Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). This would represent an annual cost increase of $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is changed is bogus and cynical. As I said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the government pays. And, as I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to support the 70, 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to everybody in the employment market, full stop. Sean From clb5590 at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 00:52:55 2012 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cynthia Bennett) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:52:55 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com> References: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I know this does not add to or respond to the issue at hand, but I wanted to publicly say that I think Sean wrote a really amazing response. I had no idea that you had that experience, and it makes me wonder how many people with disabilities that I personally know have been treated unfairly in this way. Thank you for sharing. Cindy On 6/10/12, Gmail wrote: > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are > complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the pond > you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized by people > in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the > federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive > set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at > costs that exceed their fair market value. Obviously Good Will has their > hands in other activities as well, but the point stands. If taxpayers are > being asked to subsidize nonprofits to create employment opportunities for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, subsidize > the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the management of > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled > individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output justifying > the > minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are > incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than most people > assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of output truly only > justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the wage to give them the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per hour. > I'm > worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. The law is > discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to achieve its stated > goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but organizations wishing to > receive preferential treatment in government contracting should have to > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with > disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for the > blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights > organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is > reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a law on > the books that codifies the inferiority and lesser ability of those with > disabilities. We, and they, are completely correct. The boycott of Good > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it cost > Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their workers minimum > wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost realistically going to > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I can't > see > how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is disingenuous and, > frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker currently makes $1.50 an > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee is > now > paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an extra $240 a week, and > $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees of whom this is the case > (in > reality there are fewer). This would represent an annual cost increase of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a pittance > to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller shops, just on a > smaller scale. The argument that all the poor unemployable disabled folks > will be sent home jobless if the law is changed is bogus and cynical. As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their business > through non-competitive contracts with the government, so the additional > labor cost would be built right into the price the government pays. And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the dignity, > value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to support the 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow sleep > at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that they are doing > something positive for people with disabilities. It's wrong, it's > disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me because I've lived it. If > there is a minimum wage it should apply to everybody in the employment > market, full stop. > > Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cynthia Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net Mon Jun 11 02:34:24 2012 From: brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net (Brian Hatgelakas) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 22:34:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com> <16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <002b01cd477a$b777db00$1400ba43@BRIAN> Please email me the press release about Goodwill to=20 brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net ----- Original Message -----=20 =46rom: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"=20 Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > Hi all, > Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing t= he fact > that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. > Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan = to. > > Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other larg= e > nonprofits do it. > Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities;= most > press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" or= =20 > something > like it, not people with disabilities. > Our focus is usually on blind people. > Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage= . Where > is the evidence? > I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycot= t. > > Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minim= um wage > go away. > I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum = wage. > Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses= and=20 > are > cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to think a= bout. > Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and= handle > it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if the= y=20 > really > need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that of other= =20 > workers. > > I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surpri= sed we > still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news= for=20 > you. > There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, ev= en the > legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see the > exemptions and loopholes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But > I have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think > they mean a boycott in the buying and selling senses. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very > many people > who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will do > the trick. > Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations > telling them of > the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that > working > without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point > home, point out > that this under minimum wage is a way for the United States to > keep a > handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way for under > minimum wage > to be instituted back in for everyone else. The precedent is > there, so > everyone needs to overturn this law so no one anywhere in the > United States > can ever be paid under minimum wage again. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the > boycott to this > company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put > pressure > on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as > organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end > up > spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages > and they > could even see that people with disabilities and including blind > people are > capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential > employers > see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb > lit up, > and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then > will hire > them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my > personal > opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their > disabled workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a > centralized wage policy and gave their workers fair wages, other > corporations might follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within > Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change > simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill > Industries adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so > that would help with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > =93Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens > can change the world; indeed, it=92s the only thing that ever has.? > =97MARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that > perhaps a benefit to boycotting universally would be a > possibility that Goodwill Industries would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair > wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill > Industries to adopt a universal standard of paying all workers > fair wages, and the approach that you all have mentioned seems to > me to address the decisions in individual locations. I do > understand the point of leading local business leaders to undergo > philosophical change and choose to pay their workers fair wages, > but which item is the top priority: education of individuals or > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > =93Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens > can change the world; indeed, it=92s the only thing that ever has.? > =97MARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info f= or > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40e= arthlink.net > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info f= or=20 > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brian.hatgelaka= s%40verizon.net >=20 From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 14:22:37 2012 From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 07:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <1339424557.41287.YahooMailClassic@web162005.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Does anyone still need to perchase a banquet ticket? If so please email me off list. I may have one that I can sell for cheaper then what you pay at the convention. thanks Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 14:31:10 2012 From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 07:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1339425070.11421.YahooMailClassic@web162001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Josh, Just so you know knowone can can attend ASB past the age of 21. Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller --- On Sun, 6/10/12, Joshua Lester wrote: > From: Joshua Lester > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Sunday, June 10, 2012, 11:46 AM > Sophie! > You don't know how bad schools for the blind are! > Good grief! > When I attended the Jumpstart program, at Arkansas School > for the > Blind, I was sad to see kids my age, who should've graduated > from high > school, who had straight A's, be held back! > I asked around, and the oldest graduates from the school, in > 2007, was > 25 years old! > That's what one former student told me. > Sad! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/10/12, Sophie Trist > wrote: > > I was very fortunate to have a good TVI for most of my > life, but > > when Hurricane Katrina hit, I was forced to leave home > and attend > > a school for the blind. I was shocked at how horrible > it was. On > > my first day there, I was taken to a VI class and asked > to read a > > braille book so that they could evaluate my skills. > Within five > > minutes, they sent me right back to class. The TVI's > there had > > nothing new to teach me. I was in a third/fourth-grade > class, and > > the work was first-grade level. This boils down to we > need better > > TVI's and more of them. > > > >  ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Joshua Lester > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > > > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:11:25 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > > Wow! > > You're right! > > I didn't have a real TVI, for 6/12th grade. > > My TVI, (So called,) was a special Ed teacher, who > ended up > > getting > > trained as a TVI. > > If she wasn't there to help me, guess where I was > forced to go! > > Yup! > > Special Ed classes! > > Of course, I enjoyed it, because the instructor knew I > didn't > > need to > > be there, so she allowed me to help her with the kids, > that > > actually > > needed the help. > > Blessings, Joshua > > > > On 6/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > > wrote: > >  Hello, > >  I'm sure many people who have talked to me before > know what I'm > > going to > >  say... > >  It's the educational system that many of these > problems come > > down to. We > >  have teachers coming out of school who are not > inspired to > > create a new > >  style of teaching. We have teachers who are never > taught about > > disabled > >  students. We have blind students who are never > taught how to ask > > for > >  accommodations. We have parents who think being > blind is bad! > >  Honestly, if I could have redone my education as > a sighted > > person, I would > >  not have done it. Being blind is such an > advantage in the United > > States when > >  going through school. You get extra time on > everything, you get > > leniency on > >  all your assignments if you can't finish them on > time, you get > > free > >  schooling, you get paid to go through school by > SSI, you have so > > many > >  scholarships you can apply for, you can use the > law to fight for > >  accessibility with little retribution, you become > great friends > > with your > >  teachers just because you get to talk to them all > the time, you > > are by > >  nature a very active participant in your class, > you are able to > > read your > >  books 1000 times faster than all of the other > students combined, > > you're able > >  to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel > ashamed for > > taking > >  advantage of any of the above benefits because > you're disabled > > and that's > >  what you're expected to do! > >  Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather > low and when > > you get 100% > >  on all their hardest tests they get all > embarrassed, people > > think it's > >  amazing that you're getting strait As when it's > nothing, > > (Stereotypically) > >  blind people are very unsocial so they have lots > of extra time > > to do school > >  work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's > handouts and > > instructions > >  because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you > have a problem > > with your > >  online test you can blame it on your screen > reader crashing the > > web browser, > >  state colleges gobble you up if you have ever > taken an honors > > class at a > >  community college and you have good grades and > you've written > > one of those > >  inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays > you can get > > the super > >  arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me > in the essay!", > > you're able > >  to participate in all kinds of extra activities > through agencies > > like Global > >  explorers or the Light House, you can participate > in summer job > > programs > >  like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you > go to community > > college or > >  state college you're given a guide through the > school because > > you need a > >  mobility lesson and you have the disability > resource person... > >  I should probably stop, but you get the idea... > >  It's probably because I was homeschooled for the > first few years > > of my life > >  and did all kinds of super awesome things with my > overly amazing > > parents and > >  didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I > have this view > > of school, > >  but I understood that I could learn in public > school and it was > > just that > >  either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I > wasn't equipped > > with the > >  skills or technology that was keeping me from > learning. > >  There are many other factors in learning, like > Gardiner's > > multiple  theory > >  of intelligences that play a factor in if one > learns in school, > > but thank > >  goodness I was able to learn that anyone can > learn from anyone, > > they just > >  need to know how they learn and learn that way! > >  I can give examples, but this email is already > super long, so > > I'll get off > >  education. > >  My point is that most blind people aren’t > taught about all the > > above things. > >  I was super lucky because my parents let me run > my IEP meetings > > and my mom > >  became a TVI half way through my schooling, but > every blind > > person needs to > >  know that school can be amazing! It is worth > spending 8-12 years > > of your > >  life there getting your music degree or dentist > degree. > > > >  Another factor is that disabled people are fit > into even a > > tighter mold of > >  what they are to be when disabled people are the > most unique of > > anyone. > >  Blind people do not belong in special ed classes > because they > > don't need > >  special ed. Special ed teachers are people who > teach extreme > > cases of > >  autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a > blind person is > > put into > >  that environment and they don't need it, they > will go insane! > > It's like if > >  Stephen Hawking would have been born totally > disabled and people > > stuck him > >  into special ed just because he can't talk! > >  Where would cosmology be? > >  Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and > assimilate their > > own way into > >  sighted culture in order to evade the label of > mentally disabled > > that are > >  fighting for these rights. > > > >  I keep on telling people that if someone is > considered weird > > it's not them > >  that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking > that they're > > weird. It's > >  like you thinking the person in front of you is > going through > > time the same > >  way you are! > > > >  Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to > shuck reason > > and go for > >  emotion. That's why we write all the super > inspiring essays and > > that's why > >  we have to assimilate into the sighted world. > >  Those who end up working in low under minimum > wage jobs have > > probably not > >  learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as > "normal" in the > > sighted > >  community, so that's probably why they can't get > the entry level > > jobs. > > > >  Before someone gives the line about not needing > to be anything > > other than > >  blind because we are blind, let me just say that > most of this > > world likes to > >  think they are sighted and normal. Most people > like to walk with > > the crowd. > >  Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are > considered > > weird, those who > >  learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out > how to rise > > above it are > >  considered great. > >  Thanks, > > > >  Brandon Keith Biggs > >  -----Original Message----- > >  From: Arielle Silverman > >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > >  To: National Association of Blind Students > mailing list > >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > >  Hi Brandon, > >  These are all good points. I like your statement > about blind > > people > >  who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally > disabled" as I > > have > >  met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit > that description. > >  The problem is that there is no objective test to > determine what > > a > >  person is or is not capable of doing. Even > so-called objective > > tests > >  like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't > account for > >  environmental factors that artificially limit > people's abilities > > or > >  knowledge, like what is expected of them by > parents and > > teachers, or > >  what skills they are or are not taught. There is > research > > showing that > >  when people are expected to behave or perform in > a certain way, > > they > >  tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called > a > > "self-fulfilling > >  prophesy; if you're interested in the research, > look up > > "Pygmalian > >  effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that > some kids are > >  smarter than others, they tend to treat those > "smart" kids > > differently > >  without even realizing it and eventually the > "smart" kids end up > >  performing better than the other kids. The > reverse pattern too > > often > >  happens with disabilities. People have so many > assumptions about > > how > >  disabilities limit potential, and people in > authority can act in > > ways > >  that make those assumptions come true. > >  I also agree that people with disabilities would > be much more > >  productive in sheltered jobs if they did work > that was > > intrinsically > >  interesting to them and if the work was in a > field they were > > actually > >  good at. It is common knowledge that people of > all ages and > > mental > >  abilities will do a better job at any task if > they find the task > >  enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered > jobs are simply > > too > >  boring to really engage people. Also, people with > disabilities > > have > >  their own talents that are rarely utilized in > sheltered jobs. I > > have > >  figured out that if I were forced to do a > sheltered workshop > > job, I > >  would probably be the one losing them money if > they paid me at > > minimum > >  wage, because I have never been good at making > stuff with my > > hands or > >  using machines. Not only would I be bored to > tears, but I just > >  wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at > writing and thinking > > and > >  doing math, so I hope that society will let me > use those skills > >  instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled > at. > >  Regarding your comment about unemployment among > the blind, it is > > true > >  that many fields are accessible to the blind > these days, yet the > >  unemployment rate is still staggering. There are > many reasons > > for > >  unemployment among the blind. I think one reason > is that > > employers > >  want to hire applicants with relevant experience, > and in many > > fields, > >  the entry-level position that people get at first > to gain > > experience > >  isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be > true with > >  programming, but in some fields it is really hard > to get your > > foot in > >  the door even if it's easier to work at higher > levels. For > > example, > >  before becoming a teacher, you need to do student > teaching, > > which > >  means you are working under someone else who > might not use > > accessible > >  materials or who will doubt your ability to do > the job. Without > >  experience, it's harder to allay people's initial > discriminatory > >  doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. > Also, even within > > an > >  accessible field, individual employers might use > materials that > > aren't > >  accessible to the blind. So even though > programming is very > >  accessible, if some employers require you to use > languages or > > scripts > >  that aren't accessible, this will limit job > options. > >  Arielle > > > >  On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > > wrote: > >  Hello, > >  It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what > it's like > > being mentally > >  disabled and it's hard to say what mentally > disabled can or can > > not do. We > >  also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to > act like > > mentally > >  disabled > >  people really are mentally  disabled. > >  *That's a mouthful!* > >  I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people > are way under > > employed > >  and > >  jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job > for many of > > them. But I'm > >  not a professional and I can only say from > personal experience > > that many > >  mentally disabled people can do what they want > quite well and > > often it's > >  because they are babied and misunderstood  > that they are > > pressured into > >  doing jobs they aren’t good at. > > > >  I do wonder the need of blind adults to be > working at good will > > in the > >  first > >  place though when it's not that hard learning > programming and > > it's pretty > >  easy to get reeducated for free in the United > States as a blind > > person. If > >  your career isn't working out, I don't see why > one wouldn't just > > take a > >  class at their community college and change their > job. I believe > > SSI is > >  for > >  college students and those fresh out of college, > or for a back > > up when > >  work > >  isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I > have for sure > > jobs if I > >  go > >  into programming or being a TVI. So other than > the moral > > issues, I'm not > >  sure why capable blind people are working at > goodwill. > >  Thanks, > > > >  Brandon Keith Biggs > >  -----Original Message----- > >  From: Arielle Silverman > >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > >  To: National Association of Blind Students > mailing list > >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > >  Hi all, > >  I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was > regularly donating > > items > >  like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do > as well. A > > customer > >  boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott > would probably > > hurt > >  them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's > arguments very > >  persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all > branches > > nationally, we > >  make it very clear that what we want is a change > to national > > policy. > >  Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a > woman (I'll > > call her > >  S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in > caretaker for a woman > > with > >  Down's syndrome and significant mental > retardation (I'll call > > her C). > >  Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, > I got to know > > both S > >  and C quite well and learned a bit about C's > situation. > > Apparently C > >  is employed by a program for people with > intellectual > > disabilities > >  similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill > itself. I think S. > > told > >  me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing > an extremely > > menial > >  job although I don't remember what that job was > exactly. > > However, I > >  don't think C. had any living expenses at all > because she lived > >  rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay > for groceries. > > The > >  program she was in was very custodial and I'm not > sure she even > > had > >  independent access to the money she earned at her > job. > >  I don't think I can really judge whether people > with > > disabilities like > >  C.'s are capable of living without custodial care > or spending > > their > >  own money, any more than a deaf person should be > able to judge > > how > >  independent blind people can be. I do suspect > that people like > > C. > >  would achieve more if they were held to higher > expectations, and > >  higher expectations should come with higher wages > and more > > freedom. > >  I definitely believe that anyone who lives > independently should > > be > >  paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is > clear that > > blindness > >  by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living > independently. > > However, I > >  do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those > who don't have > > living > >  expenses or who don't manage their own finances > because they are > >  living in custodial care situations. I'm sure > there are people > > in > >  these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be > there, but that > > almost > >  sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't > in custodial > > care > >  because they are earning low wages, but because > their parents or > >  others acting on their behalf have decided they > don't have the > >  intellect or the maturity to make adult > decisions. Again, this > > should > >  never be said about people who are just blind > without other > >  disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities > go, in some > > cases > >  this judgment might be right; in other cases it > might be wrong. > > But if > >  someone is clearly not able to manage adult > expenses, should > > they be > >  paid adult wages? It's tricky. > >  I can also understand the argument that if > noncompetitive > > employment > >  programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't > hire as many > >  workers. This ultimately means that instead of a > bunch of > > disabled > >  workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a > decent wage and > > others > >  will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the > reduction in > >  noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled > workers into the > >  competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage > would also > > force > >  companies with high salaries at the top to > redistribute their > > payscale > >  more fairly. > >  Arielle > > > >  On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum > wrote: > >  I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes > true. However, > > there's a > >  lot of change we need to make in order for this > to happen. Even > > if we > >  overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I > hope and pray that > > we do, > >  we > >  can't possibly tell employers that they have to > hire people with > >  disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs > and the > > attidudes of > >  society, including employers, about the > competence of blind > > people. I > >  know, > >  it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of > progress so far. > > > >  Just my thoughts, > > > >  Chris > > > >  -----Original Message----- > >  From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > >  Behalf Of Humberto Avila > >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM > >  To: 'National Association of Blind Students > mailing list' > >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > >  Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by > doing the > > boycott to > >  this > >  company, in the national / universal spectrum, we > are able to > > put > >  pressure > >  on employers, and on other companies and > corporations, as well > > as > >  organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could > eventually end > > up > >  spreading the word of stopping companies to pay > subminimum wages > > and they > >  could even see that people with disabilities and > including blind > > people > >  are > >  capable of being paid like the sighted > population. If potential > > employers > >  see this change happening, those employers will > have a light > > bulb lit up, > >  and will be able to see that blind people are > competent, then > > will hire > >  them. Then we can make more change. I see this > happening, from > > my > >  personal > >  opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. > > > >  -----Original Message----- > >  From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > >  Behalf Of Sophie Trist > >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > >  To: National Association of Blind Students > mailing list > >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > >  Justin, > > > >  I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill > was boycotted > >  universally, > >  it would put more pressure on them to pay their > disabled workers > > fair > >  wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized > wage policy and > > gave > >  their > >  workers fair wages, other corporations might > follow their lead. > > > >   ----- Original Message ----- > >  From: Justin Salisbury >  To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun > > 2012 > >  23:19:15 +0000 > >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > >  One more note: I think that local business > decision-makers > > within > >  Goodwill > >  Industries would be educated/led to philosophical > change simply > > by the > >  fact > >  that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries > adopted a > > universal > >  fair > >  wage policy (if they did), so that would help > with the > > education, too. > > > >  Justin M. Salisbury > >  Class of 2012 > >  B.A. in Mathematics > >  East Carolina University > >  president at alumni.ecu.edu > > > >  밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, > committed > > citizens > >  can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only > thing that ever > > has.? > >  뾏ARGARET MEAD > >  ________________________________________ > >  From: Justin Salisbury > >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > >  To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >  Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > > >  Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > > >  I like the point that you've made about the > decentralized wage > > policies > >  and > >  rewarding good locations, but do you think that > perhaps a > > benefit to > >  boycotting universally would be a possibility > that Goodwill > > Industries > >  would create a centralized > >  (universal) policy that all locations must pay > their workers > > fair wages? > > > >  I feel like the end result that we want is for > Goodwill > > Industries to > >  adopt > >  a universal standard of paying all workers fair > wages, and the > > approach > >  that you all have mentioned seems to me to > address the decisions > > in > >  individual locations.  I do understand the > point of leading > > local > >  business > >  leaders to undergo philosophical change and > choose to pay their > > workers > >  fair wages, but which item is the top priority: > education of > > individuals > >  or > > > >  achievement of fair > wages?   That's not a rhetorical question; I > >  want to hear opinions on it. > > > >  Justin > > > >  Justin M. Salisbury > >  Class of 2012 > >  B.A. in Mathematics > >  East Carolina University > >  president at alumni.ecu.edu > > > >  밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, > committed > > citizens > >  can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only > thing that ever > > has.? > >  뾏ARGARET MEAD > > > > > >  _______________________________________________ > >  nabs-l mailing list > >  nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your account > > info for > >  nabs- > >  l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >  r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  _______________________________________________ > >  nabs-l mailing list > >  nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your account > > info for > >  nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > >  _______________________________________________ > >  nabs-l mailing list > >  nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your account > > info for > >  nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > > mail.com > > > > > >  _______________________________________________ > >  nabs-l mailing list > >  nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your account > > info for > >  nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > >  _______________________________________________ > >  nabs-l mailing list > >  nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >  To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your account > > info for > >  nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > > 0students.pccua.edu > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com > From gpaikens at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 14:46:01 2012 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:46:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com> References: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay workers with disabilities $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is so high. Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would post in case others are interested too. -Greg On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are > complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the pond > you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized by people > in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the > federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive > set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at > costs that exceed their fair market value. Obviously Good Will has their > hands in other activities as well, but the point stands. If taxpayers are > being asked to subsidize nonprofits to create employment opportunities for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, subsidize > the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the management of these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled > individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output justifying the > minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are > incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than most people > assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of output truly only > justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the wage to give them the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per hour. I'm > worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. The law is > discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to achieve its stated > goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but organizations wishing to > receive preferential treatment in government contracting should have to fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with > disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for the > blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights > organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is > reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a law on > the books that codifies the inferiority and lesser ability of those with > disabilities. We, and they, are completely correct. The boycott of Good Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it cost > Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their workers minimum > wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost realistically going to lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I can't see > how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is disingenuous and, > frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker currently makes $1.50 an hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee is now > paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an extra $240 a week, and > $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees of whom this is the case (in > reality there are fewer). This would represent an annual cost increase of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a pittance > to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller shops, just on a > smaller scale. The argument that all the poor unemployable disabled folks > will be sent home jobless if the law is changed is bogus and cynical. As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their business > through non-competitive contracts with the government, so the additional > labor cost would be built right into the price the government pays. And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the dignity, > value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to support the 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow sleep > at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that they are doing > something positive for people with disabilities. It's wrong, it's > disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me because I've lived it. If > there is a minimum wage it should apply to everybody in the employment > market, full stop. > > Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 16:16:43 2012 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:16:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Gregg, I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how exactly does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the calculated average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but if what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue of paying people subminimum wage. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually impacted > by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually make these > changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 employees are > hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less than minimum wage, > but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is actually higher than the > federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say what the average minimum wage > for these workers would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't > imagine it could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average > pay workers with disabilities $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 > per year. Multiply that by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you > get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is so > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would post > in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the pond >> you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized by >> people >> in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >> federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >> set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >> costs that exceed their fair market value. Obviously Good Will has their >> hands in other activities as well, but the point stands. If taxpayers are >> being asked to subsidize nonprofits to create employment opportunities >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, subsidize >> the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the management of >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output justifying >> the >> minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than most >> people >> assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of output truly only >> justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the wage to give them >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per hour. >> I'm >> worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. The law is >> discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to achieve its stated >> goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but organizations wishing >> to >> receive preferential treatment in government contracting should have to >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for the >> blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a law >> on >> the books that codifies the inferiority and lesser ability of those with >> disabilities. We, and they, are completely correct. The boycott of Good >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it cost >> Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their workers >> minimum >> wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost realistically going to >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I can't >> see >> how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is disingenuous and, >> frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker currently makes $1.50 an >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee is >> now >> paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an extra $240 a week, and >> $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees of whom this is the case >> (in >> reality there are fewer). This would represent an annual cost increase of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> pittance >> to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller shops, just on >> a >> smaller scale. The argument that all the poor unemployable disabled folks >> will be sent home jobless if the law is changed is bogus and cynical. As >> I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> business >> through non-competitive contracts with the government, so the additional >> labor cost would be built right into the price the government pays. And, >> as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the dignity, >> value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to support the >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >> sleep >> at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that they are doing >> something positive for people with disabilities. It's wrong, it's >> disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me because I've lived it. >> If >> there is a minimum wage it should apply to everybody in the employment >> market, full stop. >> >> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From gpaikens at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 16:26:23 2012 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:26:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8562983C-CFAA-4BDB-9F11-324336080764@gmail.com> Hi Elizabeth, I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabled-Employees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states have minimum wage laws that are higher than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by state, go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages Please check my facts in case I misread. -Greg On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how exactly does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the calculated average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but if what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay workers with disabilities $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is so high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the pond >>> you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized by people >>> in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >>> federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>> set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>> costs that exceed their fair market value. Obviously Good Will has their >>> hands in other activities as well, but the point stands. If taxpayers are >>> being asked to subsidize nonprofits to create employment opportunities for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, subsidize >>> the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the management of these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output justifying the >>> minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than most people >>> assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of output truly only >>> justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the wage to give them the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per hour. I'm >>> worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. The law is >>> discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to achieve its stated >>> goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but organizations wishing to >>> receive preferential treatment in government contracting should have to fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for the >>> blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a law on >>> the books that codifies the inferiority and lesser ability of those with >>> disabilities. We, and they, are completely correct. The boycott of Good Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it cost >>> Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their workers minimum >>> wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost realistically going to lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I can't see >>> how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is disingenuous and, >>> frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker currently makes $1.50 an hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee is now >>> paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an extra $240 a week, and >>> $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees of whom this is the case (in >>> reality there are fewer). This would represent an annual cost increase of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a pittance >>> to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller shops, just on a >>> smaller scale. The argument that all the poor unemployable disabled folks >>> will be sent home jobless if the law is changed is bogus and cynical. As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their business >>> through non-competitive contracts with the government, so the additional >>> labor cost would be built right into the price the government pays. And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the dignity, >>> value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to support the 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow sleep >>> at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that they are doing >>> something positive for people with disabilities. It's wrong, it's >>> disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me because I've lived it. If >>> there is a minimum wage it should apply to everybody in the employment >>> market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 16:54:39 2012 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:54:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Attention All! The Listen Factor Network Is About To Launch And The Djd Invasion Has All The Details Tonight Message-ID: Hello Everyone! If there's one Djd Invasion show you shouldn't miss, it's the one airing this evening. Read below for the exciting details: With the internet being as vast a place as it is, it takes some searching and looking around to find all the different types of entertainment out there. Want audio? You've got to look for radio stations, either by searching or finding station directories that have the genres you want. Looking for video? Sites like Youtube or some other streaming services are what you need. Even to find movies requires finding some cheap service online for accessing movies or taking your chances at pirating them, but that's not advisable. Now what if there were a place where all types of entertainment could be combined to give you an experience unlike any other? A place where you could go to one channel for TV programs, another for music shows, documentaries etc, and still another one for reading, sharing, and discussing your favorite books and authors. This was at one time a dream, now it's a reality! As owner of Audio Access FM, I've been saying from the beginning that I've been wanting to give you a station that stretches the boundaries of sound entertainment. As the name Audio Access FM states, this station should give you access to everything that is audio. Not just a place for hearing music or talk radio. But a place that can combine all the different forms of audio entertainment out there in such a way that you have choices and lots of opportunities to hear some pretty cool programming! A major breakthrough in that process of giving you access to everything audio has taken place, and we'll be discussing it all on tonight's very special Djd Invasion show, starting at 8 PM eastern on both Audio Access FM and ACB Radio Interactive! Audio Access FM has helped in the creation of The Listen Factor Network. It's not part of our statin, rather we're part of this network, an extention to what we already strive to provide as a station, and yet, it's a separate place/channel from us! What is the listen factor? What will it give you? What's it all about? And how will you benefit from it? Learn all about The Listen Factor, including your chances to win some cool prizes provided by the network and more. After tonight, you'll have one place where you can listen to radio, TV, movies, books and more. That place is The Listen Factor! All of this will be covered, plus some musical selections from the pop and country genres, and of course your requests. Such requests can be sent in by email to the address daviddunphy at audioaccessfm.com via aol or msn messengers to the address interact at audioaccessfm.com Due to the nature of tonight's show, skype calls will be limited, but you can when the opportunity comes up skype in at audio.accessfm tweet me at audioaccessfm or call up at 516 324 2314 This is going to be a major revolution in access to audio prrogramming, and we hope you'll be part of this exciting new network, while still getting what you've come to expect from Audio Access FM as a single station and more! To hear this exciting news plus hear a good show, tonight at 8 PM eastern, visit http://www.audioaccessfm.com/broadband.php or http://interactive.acbradio.org to tune in. Hope to see you all there! Spread the word, you don't want to miss this exciting revolution in audio access! >From David Dunphy, station manager, Audio Access FM http://www.audioaccessfm.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Mon Jun 11 17:45:03 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:45:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind Message-ID: I don't know where that guy got his info, then. It was someone that I met at Jumpstart, that told me this. I should've asked around, but it's sad that some of the smarter ones are held back, just because of those that aren't doing so well. I knew 2 19-year-old's, that should've graduated two years before I graduated from public school, but they ended up graduating, in 2008. I probably would've graduated later, had I not attended public school. These kids should be able to graduate, on time, with their sighted piers! Blessings, Joshua On 6/11/12, Anmol Bhatia wrote: > Josh, > Just so you know knowone can can attend ASB past the age of 21. > > Anmol > I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps > there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze > among flowers. > Hellen Keller > > > --- On Sun, 6/10/12, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> From: Joshua Lester >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Date: Sunday, June 10, 2012, 11:46 AM >> Sophie! >> You don't know how bad schools for the blind are! >> Good grief! >> When I attended the Jumpstart program, at Arkansas School >> for the >> Blind, I was sad to see kids my age, who should've graduated >> from high >> school, who had straight A's, be held back! >> I asked around, and the oldest graduates from the school, in >> 2007, was >> 25 years old! >> That's what one former student told me. >> Sad! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 6/10/12, Sophie Trist >> wrote: >> > I was very fortunate to have a good TVI for most of my >> life, but >> > when Hurricane Katrina hit, I was forced to leave home >> and attend >> > a school for the blind. I was shocked at how horrible >> it was. On >> > my first day there, I was taken to a VI class and asked >> to read a >> > braille book so that they could evaluate my skills. >> Within five >> > minutes, they sent me right back to class. The TVI's >> there had >> > nothing new to teach me. I was in a third/fourth-grade >> class, and >> > the work was first-grade level. This boils down to we >> need better >> > TVI's and more of them. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Joshua Lester > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> > > > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:11:25 -0500 >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Wow! >> > You're right! >> > I didn't have a real TVI, for 6/12th grade. >> > My TVI, (So called,) was a special Ed teacher, who >> ended up >> > getting >> > trained as a TVI. >> > If she wasn't there to help me, guess where I was >> forced to go! >> > Yup! >> > Special Ed classes! >> > Of course, I enjoyed it, because the instructor knew I >> didn't >> > need to >> > be there, so she allowed me to help her with the kids, >> that >> > actually >> > needed the help. >> > Blessings, Joshua >> > >> > On 6/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs >> > wrote: >> > Hello, >> > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before >> know what I'm >> > going to >> > say... >> > It's the educational system that many of these >> problems come >> > down to. We >> > have teachers coming out of school who are not >> inspired to >> > create a new >> > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never >> taught about >> > disabled >> > students. We have blind students who are never >> taught how to ask >> > for >> > accommodations. We have parents who think being >> blind is bad! >> > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as >> a sighted >> > person, I would >> > not have done it. Being blind is such an >> advantage in the United >> > States when >> > going through school. You get extra time on >> everything, you get >> > leniency on >> > all your assignments if you can't finish them on >> time, you get >> > free >> > schooling, you get paid to go through school by >> SSI, you have so >> > many >> > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the >> law to fight for >> > accessibility with little retribution, you become >> great friends >> > with your >> > teachers just because you get to talk to them all >> the time, you >> > are by >> > nature a very active participant in your class, >> you are able to >> > read your >> > books 1000 times faster than all of the other >> students combined, >> > you're able >> > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel >> ashamed for >> > taking >> > advantage of any of the above benefits because >> you're disabled >> > and that's >> > what you're expected to do! >> > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather >> low and when >> > you get 100% >> > on all their hardest tests they get all >> embarrassed, people >> > think it's >> > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's >> nothing, >> > (Stereotypically) >> > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots >> of extra time >> > to do school >> > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's >> handouts and >> > instructions >> > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you >> have a problem >> > with your >> > online test you can blame it on your screen >> reader crashing the >> > web browser, >> > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever >> taken an honors >> > class at a >> > community college and you have good grades and >> you've written >> > one of those >> > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays >> you can get >> > the super >> > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me >> in the essay!", >> > you're able >> > to participate in all kinds of extra activities >> through agencies >> > like Global >> > explorers or the Light House, you can participate >> in summer job >> > programs >> > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you >> go to community >> > college or >> > state college you're given a guide through the >> school because >> > you need a >> > mobility lesson and you have the disability >> resource person... >> > I should probably stop, but you get the idea... >> > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the >> first few years >> > of my life >> > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my >> overly amazing >> > parents and >> > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I >> have this view >> > of school, >> > but I understood that I could learn in public >> school and it was >> > just that >> > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I >> wasn't equipped >> > with the >> > skills or technology that was keeping me from >> learning. >> > There are many other factors in learning, like >> Gardiner's >> > multiple theory >> > of intelligences that play a factor in if one >> learns in school, >> > but thank >> > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can >> learn from anyone, >> > they just >> > need to know how they learn and learn that way! >> > I can give examples, but this email is already >> super long, so >> > I'll get off >> > education. >> > My point is that most blind people aren’t >> taught about all the >> > above things. >> > I was super lucky because my parents let me run >> my IEP meetings >> > and my mom >> > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but >> every blind >> > person needs to >> > know that school can be amazing! It is worth >> spending 8-12 years >> > of your >> > life there getting your music degree or dentist >> degree. >> > >> > Another factor is that disabled people are fit >> into even a >> > tighter mold of >> > what they are to be when disabled people are the >> most unique of >> > anyone. >> > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes >> because they >> > don't need >> > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who >> teach extreme >> > cases of >> > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a >> blind person is >> > put into >> > that environment and they don't need it, they >> will go insane! >> > It's like if >> > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally >> disabled and people >> > stuck him >> > into special ed just because he can't talk! >> > Where would cosmology be? >> > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and >> assimilate their >> > own way into >> > sighted culture in order to evade the label of >> mentally disabled >> > that are >> > fighting for these rights. >> > >> > I keep on telling people that if someone is >> considered weird >> > it's not them >> > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking >> that they're >> > weird. It's >> > like you thinking the person in front of you is >> going through >> > time the same >> > way you are! >> > >> > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to >> shuck reason >> > and go for >> > emotion. That's why we write all the super >> inspiring essays and >> > that's why >> > we have to assimilate into the sighted world. >> > Those who end up working in low under minimum >> wage jobs have >> > probably not >> > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as >> "normal" in the >> > sighted >> > community, so that's probably why they can't get >> the entry level >> > jobs. >> > >> > Before someone gives the line about not needing >> to be anything >> > other than >> > blind because we are blind, let me just say that >> most of this >> > world likes to >> > think they are sighted and normal. Most people >> like to walk with >> > the crowd. >> > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are >> considered >> > weird, those who >> > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out >> how to rise >> > above it are >> > considered great. >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Arielle Silverman >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Hi Brandon, >> > These are all good points. I like your statement >> about blind >> > people >> > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally >> disabled" as I >> > have >> > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit >> that description. >> > The problem is that there is no objective test to >> determine what >> > a >> > person is or is not capable of doing. Even >> so-called objective >> > tests >> > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't >> account for >> > environmental factors that artificially limit >> people's abilities >> > or >> > knowledge, like what is expected of them by >> parents and >> > teachers, or >> > what skills they are or are not taught. There is >> research >> > showing that >> > when people are expected to behave or perform in >> a certain way, >> > they >> > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called >> a >> > "self-fulfilling >> > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, >> look up >> > "Pygmalian >> > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that >> some kids are >> > smarter than others, they tend to treat those >> "smart" kids >> > differently >> > without even realizing it and eventually the >> "smart" kids end up >> > performing better than the other kids. The >> reverse pattern too >> > often >> > happens with disabilities. People have so many >> assumptions about >> > how >> > disabilities limit potential, and people in >> authority can act in >> > ways >> > that make those assumptions come true. >> > I also agree that people with disabilities would >> be much more >> > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work >> that was >> > intrinsically >> > interesting to them and if the work was in a >> field they were >> > actually >> > good at. It is common knowledge that people of >> all ages and >> > mental >> > abilities will do a better job at any task if >> they find the task >> > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered >> jobs are simply >> > too >> > boring to really engage people. Also, people with >> disabilities >> > have >> > their own talents that are rarely utilized in >> sheltered jobs. I >> > have >> > figured out that if I were forced to do a >> sheltered workshop >> > job, I >> > would probably be the one losing them money if >> they paid me at >> > minimum >> > wage, because I have never been good at making >> stuff with my >> > hands or >> > using machines. Not only would I be bored to >> tears, but I just >> > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at >> writing and thinking >> > and >> > doing math, so I hope that society will let me >> use those skills >> > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled >> at. >> > Regarding your comment about unemployment among >> the blind, it is >> > true >> > that many fields are accessible to the blind >> these days, yet the >> > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are >> many reasons >> > for >> > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason >> is that >> > employers >> > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, >> and in many >> > fields, >> > the entry-level position that people get at first >> to gain >> > experience >> > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be >> true with >> > programming, but in some fields it is really hard >> to get your >> > foot in >> > the door even if it's easier to work at higher >> levels. For >> > example, >> > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student >> teaching, >> > which >> > means you are working under someone else who >> might not use >> > accessible >> > materials or who will doubt your ability to do >> the job. Without >> > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial >> discriminatory >> > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. >> Also, even within >> > an >> > accessible field, individual employers might use >> materials that >> > aren't >> > accessible to the blind. So even though >> programming is very >> > accessible, if some employers require you to use >> languages or >> > scripts >> > that aren't accessible, this will limit job >> options. >> > Arielle >> > >> > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs >> > wrote: >> > Hello, >> > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what >> it's like >> > being mentally >> > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally >> disabled can or can >> > not do. We >> > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to >> act like >> > mentally >> > disabled >> > people really are mentally disabled. >> > *That's a mouthful!* >> > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people >> are way under >> > employed >> > and >> > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job >> for many of >> > them. But I'm >> > not a professional and I can only say from >> personal experience >> > that many >> > mentally disabled people can do what they want >> quite well and >> > often it's >> > because they are babied and misunderstood >> that they are >> > pressured into >> > doing jobs they aren’t good at. >> > >> > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be >> working at good will >> > in the >> > first >> > place though when it's not that hard learning >> programming and >> > it's pretty >> > easy to get reeducated for free in the United >> States as a blind >> > person. If >> > your career isn't working out, I don't see why >> one wouldn't just >> > take a >> > class at their community college and change their >> job. I believe >> > SSI is >> > for >> > college students and those fresh out of college, >> or for a back >> > up when >> > work >> > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I >> have for sure >> > jobs if I >> > go >> > into programming or being a TVI. So other than >> the moral >> > issues, I'm not >> > sure why capable blind people are working at >> goodwill. >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Arielle Silverman >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Hi all, >> > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was >> regularly donating >> > items >> > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do >> as well. A >> > customer >> > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott >> would probably >> > hurt >> > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's >> arguments very >> > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all >> branches >> > nationally, we >> > make it very clear that what we want is a change >> to national >> > policy. >> > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a >> woman (I'll >> > call her >> > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in >> caretaker for a woman >> > with >> > Down's syndrome and significant mental >> retardation (I'll call >> > her C). >> > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, >> I got to know >> > both S >> > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's >> situation. >> > Apparently C >> > is employed by a program for people with >> intellectual >> > disabilities >> > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill >> itself. I think S. >> > told >> > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing >> an extremely >> > menial >> > job although I don't remember what that job was >> exactly. >> > However, I >> > don't think C. had any living expenses at all >> because she lived >> > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay >> for groceries. >> > The >> > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not >> sure she even >> > had >> > independent access to the money she earned at her >> job. >> > I don't think I can really judge whether people >> with >> > disabilities like >> > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care >> or spending >> > their >> > own money, any more than a deaf person should be >> able to judge >> > how >> > independent blind people can be. I do suspect >> that people like >> > C. >> > would achieve more if they were held to higher >> expectations, and >> > higher expectations should come with higher wages >> and more >> > freedom. >> > I definitely believe that anyone who lives >> independently should >> > be >> > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is >> clear that >> > blindness >> > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living >> independently. >> > However, I >> > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those >> who don't have >> > living >> > expenses or who don't manage their own finances >> because they are >> > living in custodial care situations. I'm sure >> there are people >> > in >> > these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be >> there, but that >> > almost >> > sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't >> in custodial >> > care >> > because they are earning low wages, but because >> their parents or >> > others acting on their behalf have decided they >> don't have the >> > intellect or the maturity to make adult >> decisions. Again, this >> > should >> > never be said about people who are just blind >> without other >> > disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities >> go, in some >> > cases >> > this judgment might be right; in other cases it >> might be wrong. >> > But if >> > someone is clearly not able to manage adult >> expenses, should >> > they be >> > paid adult wages? It's tricky. >> > I can also understand the argument that if >> noncompetitive >> > employment >> > programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't >> hire as many >> > workers. This ultimately means that instead of a >> bunch of >> > disabled >> > workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a >> decent wage and >> > others >> > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the >> reduction in >> > noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled >> workers into the >> > competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage >> would also >> > force >> > companies with high salaries at the top to >> redistribute their >> > payscale >> > more fairly. >> > Arielle >> > >> > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum >> wrote: >> > I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes >> true. However, >> > there's a >> > lot of change we need to make in order for this >> to happen. Even >> > if we >> > overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I >> hope and pray that >> > we do, >> > we >> > can't possibly tell employers that they have to >> hire people with >> > disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs >> and the >> > attidudes of >> > society, including employers, about the >> competence of blind >> > people. I >> > know, >> > it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of >> progress so far. >> > >> > Just my thoughts, >> > >> > Chris >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> > Behalf Of Humberto Avila >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >> > To: 'National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list' >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by >> doing the >> > boycott to >> > this >> > company, in the national / universal spectrum, we >> are able to >> > put >> > pressure >> > on employers, and on other companies and >> corporations, as well >> > as >> > organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could >> eventually end >> > up >> > spreading the word of stopping companies to pay >> subminimum wages >> > and they >> > could even see that people with disabilities and >> including blind >> > people >> > are >> > capable of being paid like the sighted >> population. If potential >> > employers >> > see this change happening, those employers will >> have a light >> > bulb lit up, >> > and will be able to see that blind people are >> competent, then >> > will hire >> > them. Then we can make more change. I see this >> happening, from >> > my >> > personal >> > opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >> > Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Justin, >> > >> > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill >> was boycotted >> > universally, >> > it would put more pressure on them to pay their >> disabled workers >> > fair >> > wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized >> wage policy and >> > gave >> > their >> > workers fair wages, other corporations might >> follow their lead. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Justin Salisbury > > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" >> > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun >> > 2012 >> > 23:19:15 +0000 >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > One more note: I think that local business >> decision-makers >> > within >> > Goodwill >> > Industries would be educated/led to philosophical >> change simply >> > by the >> > fact >> > that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries >> adopted a >> > universal >> > fair >> > wage policy (if they did), so that would help >> with the >> > education, too. >> > >> > Justin M. Salisbury >> > Class of 2012 >> > B.A. in Mathematics >> > East Carolina University >> > president at alumni.ecu.edu >> > >> > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, >> committed >> > citizens >> > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only >> thing that ever >> > has.? >> > 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: Justin Salisbury >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > Subject: Goodwill Boycott >> > >> > Arielle, Gabe, and all: >> > >> > I like the point that you've made about the >> decentralized wage >> > policies >> > and >> > rewarding good locations, but do you think that >> perhaps a >> > benefit to >> > boycotting universally would be a possibility >> that Goodwill >> > Industries >> > would create a centralized >> > (universal) policy that all locations must pay >> their workers >> > fair wages? >> > >> > I feel like the end result that we want is for >> Goodwill >> > Industries to >> > adopt >> > a universal standard of paying all workers fair >> wages, and the >> > approach >> > that you all have mentioned seems to me to >> address the decisions >> > in >> > individual locations. I do understand the >> point of leading >> > local >> > business >> > leaders to undergo philosophical change and >> choose to pay their >> > workers >> > fair wages, but which item is the top priority: >> education of >> > individuals >> > or >> > >> > achievement of fair >> wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >> > want to hear opinions on it. >> > >> > Justin >> > >> > Justin M. Salisbury >> > Class of 2012 >> > B.A. in Mathematics >> > East Carolina University >> > president at alumni.ecu.edu >> > >> > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, >> committed >> > citizens >> > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only >> thing that ever >> > has.? >> > 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> your account >> > info for >> > nabs- >> > l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > r%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> your account >> > info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> > iggs%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> your account >> > info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> > mail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> your account >> > info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> > iggs%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> your account >> > info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> > 0students.pccua.edu >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info >> > for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> > r%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 18:24:07 2012 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:24:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <8562983C-CFAA-4BDB-9F11-324336080764@gmail.com> References: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com> <8562983C-CFAA-4BDB-9F11-324336080764@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently > posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabled-Employees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage > This article gives the number of employees impacted and their average > wage. The reason that an average wage of $7.47 could still be below > minimum wage is because many states have minimum wage laws that are higher > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by > state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how exactly >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the calculated >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries >> of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >> out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but if >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue of >> paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>> what the average minimum wage for these workers would be because each >>> state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it could be higher than >>> $8.50. So they would have to on average pay workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that by >>> the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is so >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>> post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>>> Good afternoon, >>>> >>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention >>>> for >>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>> >>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and >>>> most >>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers >>>> with >>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the pond >>>> you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized by >>>> people >>>> in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>> >>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >>>> federal government, providing goods and services through >>>> non-competitive >>>> set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided >>>> at >>>> costs that exceed their fair market value. Obviously Good Will has >>>> their >>>> hands in other activities as well, but the point stands. If taxpayers >>>> are >>>> being asked to subsidize nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>>> for >>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>> subsidize >>>> the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the management of >>>> these >>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>> justifying the >>>> minimum wage in the market? >>>> >>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than most >>>> people >>>> assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of output truly >>>> only >>>> justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the wage to give them >>>> the >>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>> >>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>> hour. I'm >>>> worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. The law is >>>> discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to achieve its >>>> stated >>>> goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but organizations >>>> wishing to >>>> receive preferential treatment in government contracting should have to >>>> fill >>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>> now, >>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>> >>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for the >>>> blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>> law on >>>> the books that codifies the inferiority and lesser ability of those >>>> with >>>> disabilities. We, and they, are completely correct. The boycott of Good >>>> Will >>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>>> to >>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>> cost >>>> Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their workers >>>> minimum >>>> wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost realistically going to >>>> lead >>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I >>>> can't see >>>> how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is disingenuous and, >>>> frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker currently makes $1.50 an >>>> hour. >>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>> is now >>>> paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an extra $240 a week, >>>> and >>>> $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees of whom this is the >>>> case (in >>>> reality there are fewer). This would represent an annual cost increase >>>> of >>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>> pittance >>>> to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller shops, just >>>> on a >>>> smaller scale. The argument that all the poor unemployable disabled >>>> folks >>>> will be sent home jobless if the law is changed is bogus and cynical. >>>> As I >>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>> business >>>> through non-competitive contracts with the government, so the >>>> additional >>>> labor cost would be built right into the price the government pays. >>>> And, as >>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>> dignity, >>>> value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to support the >>>> 70, >>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>> sleep >>>> at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that they are doing >>>> something positive for people with disabilities. It's wrong, it's >>>> disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me because I've lived >>>> it. If >>>> there is a minimum wage it should apply to everybody in the employment >>>> market, full stop. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 18:32:28 2012 From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1339439548.14387.YahooMailClassic@web162002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Know one is held back unless you are lacking the educational requirement training needed to graduate or unless you need a year or two for independent living training. But know one is held back because their classmates are slow. Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller --- On Mon, 6/11/12, Joshua Lester wrote: > From: Joshua Lester > Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 12:45 PM > I don't know where that guy got his > info, then. > It was someone that I met at Jumpstart, that told me this. > I should've asked around, but it's sad that some of the > smarter ones > are held back, just because of those that aren't doing so > well. > I knew 2 19-year-old's, that should've graduated two years > before I > graduated from public school, but they ended up graduating, > in 2008. > I probably would've graduated later, had I not attended > public school. > These kids should be able to graduate, on time, with their > sighted piers! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/11/12, Anmol Bhatia > wrote: > > Josh, > > Just so you know knowone can can attend ASB past the > age of 21. > > > > Anmol > > I seldom think about my limitations, and they never > make me sad. Perhaps > > there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is > vague, like a breeze > > among flowers. > > Hellen Keller > > > > > > --- On Sun, 6/10/12, Joshua Lester > wrote: > > > >> From: Joshua Lester > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing > list" > >> > >> Date: Sunday, June 10, 2012, 11:46 AM > >> Sophie! > >> You don't know how bad schools for the blind are! > >> Good grief! > >> When I attended the Jumpstart program, at Arkansas > School > >> for the > >> Blind, I was sad to see kids my age, who should've > graduated > >> from high > >> school, who had straight A's, be held back! > >> I asked around, and the oldest graduates from the > school, in > >> 2007, was > >> 25 years old! > >> That's what one former student told me. > >> Sad! > >> Blessings, Joshua > >> > >> On 6/10/12, Sophie Trist > >> wrote: > >> > I was very fortunate to have a good TVI for > most of my > >> life, but > >> > when Hurricane Katrina hit, I was forced to > leave home > >> and attend > >> > a school for the blind. I was shocked at how > horrible > >> it was. On > >> > my first day there, I was taken to a VI class > and asked > >> to read a > >> > braille book so that they could evaluate my > skills. > >> Within five > >> > minutes, they sent me right back to class. The > TVI's > >> there had > >> > nothing new to teach me. I was in a > third/fourth-grade > >> class, and > >> > the work was first-grade level. This boils > down to we > >> need better > >> > TVI's and more of them. > >> > > >> >  ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Joshua Lester >> > To: National Association of Blind Students > mailing > >> list > >> > >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:11:25 -0500 > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> > Wow! > >> > You're right! > >> > I didn't have a real TVI, for 6/12th grade. > >> > My TVI, (So called,) was a special Ed teacher, > who > >> ended up > >> > getting > >> > trained as a TVI. > >> > If she wasn't there to help me, guess where I > was > >> forced to go! > >> > Yup! > >> > Special Ed classes! > >> > Of course, I enjoyed it, because the > instructor knew I > >> didn't > >> > need to > >> > be there, so she allowed me to help her with > the kids, > >> that > >> > actually > >> > needed the help. > >> > Blessings, Joshua > >> > > >> > On 6/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > wrote: > >> >  Hello, > >> >  I'm sure many people who have talked to > me before > >> know what I'm > >> > going to > >> >  say... > >> >  It's the educational system that many of > these > >> problems come > >> > down to. We > >> >  have teachers coming out of school who > are not > >> inspired to > >> > create a new > >> >  style of teaching. We have teachers who > are never > >> taught about > >> > disabled > >> >  students. We have blind students who are > never > >> taught how to ask > >> > for > >> >  accommodations. We have parents who > think being > >> blind is bad! > >> >  Honestly, if I could have redone my > education as > >> a sighted > >> > person, I would > >> >  not have done it. Being blind is such > an > >> advantage in the United > >> > States when > >> >  going through school. You get extra time > on > >> everything, you get > >> > leniency on > >> >  all your assignments if you can't finish > them on > >> time, you get > >> > free > >> >  schooling, you get paid to go through > school by > >> SSI, you have so > >> > many > >> >  scholarships you can apply for, you can > use the > >> law to fight for > >> >  accessibility with little retribution, > you become > >> great friends > >> > with your > >> >  teachers just because you get to talk to > them all > >> the time, you > >> > are by > >> >  nature a very active participant in your > class, > >> you are able to > >> > read your > >> >  books 1000 times faster than all of the > other > >> students combined, > >> > you're able > >> >  to get tutoring for free, you don't have > to feel > >> ashamed for > >> > taking > >> >  advantage of any of the above benefits > because > >> you're disabled > >> > and that's > >> >  what you're expected to do! > >> >  Also, the expectation of your teachers > is rather > >> low and when > >> > you get 100% > >> >  on all their hardest tests they get all > >> embarrassed, people > >> > think it's > >> >  amazing that you're getting strait As > when it's > >> nothing, > >> > (Stereotypically) > >> >  blind people are very unsocial so they > have lots > >> of extra time > >> > to do school > >> >  work, you're able to actually edit your > teacher's > >> handouts and > >> > instructions > >> >  because Jaws doesn't miss skipped > letters, if you > >> have a problem > >> > with your > >> >  online test you can blame it on your > screen > >> reader crashing the > >> > web browser, > >> >  state colleges gobble you up if you have > ever > >> taken an honors > >> > class at a > >> >  community college and you have good > grades and > >> you've written > >> > one of those > >> >  inspiring essays, when you write > inspiring essays > >> you can get > >> > the super > >> >  arrogant feeling for a moment and say > "That's me > >> in the essay!", > >> > you're able > >> >  to participate in all kinds of extra > activities > >> through agencies > >> > like Global > >> >  explorers or the Light House, you can > participate > >> in summer job > >> > programs > >> >  like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, > when you > >> go to community > >> > college or > >> >  state college you're given a guide > through the > >> school because > >> > you need a > >> >  mobility lesson and you have the > disability > >> resource person... > >> >  I should probably stop, but you get the > idea... > >> >  It's probably because I was homeschooled > for the > >> first few years > >> > of my life > >> >  and did all kinds of super awesome > things with my > >> overly amazing > >> > parents and > >> >  didn't enter public school till 5th > grade that I > >> have this view > >> > of school, > >> >  but I understood that I could learn in > public > >> school and it was > >> > just that > >> >  either the teacher wasn't teaching me or > that I > >> wasn't equipped > >> > with the > >> >  skills or technology that was keeping me > from > >> learning. > >> >  There are many other factors in > learning, like > >> Gardiner's > >> > multiple  theory > >> >  of intelligences that play a factor in > if one > >> learns in school, > >> > but thank > >> >  goodness I was able to learn that anyone > can > >> learn from anyone, > >> > they just > >> >  need to know how they learn and learn > that way! > >> >  I can give examples, but this email is > already > >> super long, so > >> > I'll get off > >> >  education. > >> >  My point is that most blind people > aren’t > >> taught about all the > >> > above things. > >> >  I was super lucky because my parents let > me run > >> my IEP meetings > >> > and my mom > >> >  became a TVI half way through my > schooling, but > >> every blind > >> > person needs to > >> >  know that school can be amazing! It is > worth > >> spending 8-12 years > >> > of your > >> >  life there getting your music degree or > dentist > >> degree. > >> > > >> >  Another factor is that disabled people > are fit > >> into even a > >> > tighter mold of > >> >  what they are to be when disabled people > are the > >> most unique of > >> > anyone. > >> >  Blind people do not belong in special ed > classes > >> because they > >> > don't need > >> >  special ed. Special ed teachers are > people who > >> teach extreme > >> > cases of > >> >  autistic or other mentally disabled > people. If a > >> blind person is > >> > put into > >> >  that environment and they don't need it, > they > >> will go insane! > >> > It's like if > >> >  Stephen Hawking would have been born > totally > >> disabled and people > >> > stuck him > >> >  into special ed just because he can't > talk! > >> >  Where would cosmology be? > >> >  Sadly it's those who break out of the > mold and > >> assimilate their > >> > own way into > >> >  sighted culture in order to evade the > label of > >> mentally disabled > >> > that are > >> >  fighting for these rights. > >> > > >> >  I keep on telling people that if someone > is > >> considered weird > >> > it's not them > >> >  that's weird, it's you who's weird for > thinking > >> that they're > >> > weird. It's > >> >  like you thinking the person in front of > you is > >> going through > >> > time the same > >> >  way you are! > >> > > >> >  Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we > have to > >> shuck reason > >> > and go for > >> >  emotion. That's why we write all the > super > >> inspiring essays and > >> > that's why > >> >  we have to assimilate into the sighted > world. > >> >  Those who end up working in low under > minimum > >> wage jobs have > >> > probably not > >> >  learned how to assimilate enough to pass > off as > >> "normal" in the > >> > sighted > >> >  community, so that's probably why they > can't get > >> the entry level > >> > jobs. > >> > > >> >  Before someone gives the line about not > needing > >> to be anything > >> > other than > >> >  blind because we are blind, let me just > say that > >> most of this > >> > world likes to > >> >  think they are sighted and normal. Most > people > >> like to walk with > >> > the crowd. > >> >  Those who never learn to walk with the > crowd are > >> considered > >> > weird, those who > >> >  learn how to walk with the crowd then > figure out > >> how to rise > >> > above it are > >> >  considered great. > >> >  Thanks, > >> > > >> >  Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >  -----Original Message----- > >> >  From: Arielle Silverman > >> >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM > >> >  To: National Association of Blind > Students > >> mailing list > >> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> >  Hi Brandon, > >> >  These are all good points. I like your > statement > >> about blind > >> > people > >> >  who are "nurtured to act like they are > mentally > >> disabled" as I > >> > have > >> >  met a few people who unfortunately seem > to fit > >> that description. > >> >  The problem is that there is no > objective test to > >> determine what > >> > a > >> >  person is or is not capable of doing. > Even > >> so-called objective > >> > tests > >> >  like IQ tests are incredibly biased and > don't > >> account for > >> >  environmental factors that artificially > limit > >> people's abilities > >> > or > >> >  knowledge, like what is expected of them > by > >> parents and > >> > teachers, or > >> >  what skills they are or are not taught. > There is > >> research > >> > showing that > >> >  when people are expected to behave or > perform in > >> a certain way, > >> > they > >> >  tend to fulfill that expectation (this > is called > >> a > >> > "self-fulfilling > >> >  prophesy; if you're interested in the > research, > >> look up > >> > "Pygmalian > >> >  effect"). So when teachers are randomly > told that > >> some kids are > >> >  smarter than others, they tend to treat > those > >> "smart" kids > >> > differently > >> >  without even realizing it and eventually > the > >> "smart" kids end up > >> >  performing better than the other kids. > The > >> reverse pattern too > >> > often > >> >  happens with disabilities. People have > so many > >> assumptions about > >> > how > >> >  disabilities limit potential, and people > in > >> authority can act in > >> > ways > >> >  that make those assumptions come true. > >> >  I also agree that people with > disabilities would > >> be much more > >> >  productive in sheltered jobs if they did > work > >> that was > >> > intrinsically > >> >  interesting to them and if the work was > in a > >> field they were > >> > actually > >> >  good at. It is common knowledge that > people of > >> all ages and > >> > mental > >> >  abilities will do a better job at any > task if > >> they find the task > >> >  enjoyable and motivating. Too often, > sheltered > >> jobs are simply > >> > too > >> >  boring to really engage people. Also, > people with > >> disabilities > >> > have > >> >  their own talents that are rarely > utilized in > >> sheltered jobs. I > >> > have > >> >  figured out that if I were forced to do > a > >> sheltered workshop > >> > job, I > >> >  would probably be the one losing them > money if > >> they paid me at > >> > minimum > >> >  wage, because I have never been good at > making > >> stuff with my > >> > hands or > >> >  using machines. Not only would I be > bored to > >> tears, but I just > >> >  wouldn't be good at it. I am much better > at > >> writing and thinking > >> > and > >> >  doing math, so I hope that society will > let me > >> use those skills > >> >  instead of forcing me to do work I'm not > skilled > >> at. > >> >  Regarding your comment about > unemployment among > >> the blind, it is > >> > true > >> >  that many fields are accessible to the > blind > >> these days, yet the > >> >  unemployment rate is still staggering. > There are > >> many reasons > >> > for > >> >  unemployment among the blind. I think > one reason > >> is that > >> > employers > >> >  want to hire applicants with relevant > experience, > >> and in many > >> > fields, > >> >  the entry-level position that people get > at first > >> to gain > >> > experience > >> >  isn't accessible to the blind. This > might not be > >> true with > >> >  programming, but in some fields it is > really hard > >> to get your > >> > foot in > >> >  the door even if it's easier to work at > higher > >> levels. For > >> > example, > >> >  before becoming a teacher, you need to > do student > >> teaching, > >> > which > >> >  means you are working under someone else > who > >> might not use > >> > accessible > >> >  materials or who will doubt your ability > to do > >> the job. Without > >> >  experience, it's harder to allay > people's initial > >> discriminatory > >> >  doubts and fears about hiring a blind > person. > >> Also, even within > >> > an > >> >  accessible field, individual employers > might use > >> materials that > >> > aren't > >> >  accessible to the blind. So even though > >> programming is very > >> >  accessible, if some employers require > you to use > >> languages or > >> > scripts > >> >  that aren't accessible, this will limit > job > >> options. > >> >  Arielle > >> > > >> >  On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs > >> > wrote: > >> >  Hello, > >> >  It's a tricky situation. We can't really > say what > >> it's like > >> > being mentally > >> >  disabled and it's hard to say what > mentally > >> disabled can or can > >> > not do. We > >> >  also can't tell if the blind who are > nurtured to > >> act like > >> > mentally > >> >  disabled > >> >  people really are mentally  > disabled. > >> >  *That's a mouthful!* > >> >  I am of the opinion that mentally > disabled people > >> are way under > >> > employed > >> >  and > >> >  jobs like Goodwill are completely the > wrong job > >> for many of > >> > them. But I'm > >> >  not a professional and I can only say > from > >> personal experience > >> > that many > >> >  mentally disabled people can do what > they want > >> quite well and > >> > often it's > >> >  because they are babied and > misunderstood > >> that they are > >> > pressured into > >> >  doing jobs they aren’t good at. > >> > > >> >  I do wonder the need of blind adults to > be > >> working at good will > >> > in the > >> >  first > >> >  place though when it's not that hard > learning > >> programming and > >> > it's pretty > >> >  easy to get reeducated for free in the > United > >> States as a blind > >> > person. If > >> >  your career isn't working out, I don't > see why > >> one wouldn't just > >> > take a > >> >  class at their community college and > change their > >> job. I believe > >> > SSI is > >> >  for > >> >  college students and those fresh out of > college, > >> or for a back > >> > up when > >> >  work > >> >  isn't coming. I am still a student, but > I know I > >> have for sure > >> > jobs if I > >> >  go > >> >  into programming or being a TVI. So > other than > >> the moral > >> > issues, I'm not > >> >  sure why capable blind people are > working at > >> goodwill. > >> >  Thanks, > >> > > >> >  Brandon Keith Biggs > >> >  -----Original Message----- > >> >  From: Arielle Silverman > >> >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM > >> >  To: National Association of Blind > Students > >> mailing list > >> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> >  Hi all, > >> >  I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I > was > >> regularly donating > >> > items > >> >  like used clothes to Goodwill, and my > parents do > >> as well. A > >> > customer > >> >  boycott might not matter much but a > donor boycott > >> would probably > >> > hurt > >> >  them considerably. I have to say I found > Justin's > >> arguments very > >> >  persuasive. I just hope that if we > boycott all > >> branches > >> > nationally, we > >> >  make it very clear that what we want is > a change > >> to national > >> > policy. > >> >  Interestingly, I used to rent an > apartment from a > >> woman (I'll > >> > call her > >> >  S) whose full-time job was to be a > live-in > >> caretaker for a woman > >> > with > >> >  Down's syndrome and significant mental > >> retardation (I'll call > >> > her C). > >> >  Since I rented the apartment right below > theirs, > >> I got to know > >> > both S > >> >  and C quite well and learned a bit about > C's > >> situation. > >> > Apparently C > >> >  is employed by a program for people > with > >> intellectual > >> > disabilities > >> >  similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't > Goodwill > >> itself. I think S. > >> > told > >> >  me that C. was paid around $1 per hour > for doing > >> an extremely > >> > menial > >> >  job although I don't remember what that > job was > >> exactly. > >> > However, I > >> >  don't think C. had any living expenses > at all > >> because she lived > >> >  rent-free with S. She may have been > helping pay > >> for groceries. > >> > The > >> >  program she was in was very custodial > and I'm not > >> sure she even > >> > had > >> >  independent access to the money she > earned at her > >> job. > >> >  I don't think I can really judge whether > people > >> with > >> > disabilities like > >> >  C.'s are capable of living without > custodial care > >> or spending > >> > their > >> >  own money, any more than a deaf person > should be > >> able to judge > >> > how > >> >  independent blind people can be. I do > suspect > >> that people like > >> > C. > >> >  would achieve more if they were held to > higher > >> expectations, and > >> >  higher expectations should come with > higher wages > >> and more > >> > freedom. > >> >  I definitely believe that anyone who > lives > >> independently should > >> > be > >> >  paid at least the minimum wage, and I > think it is > >> clear that > >> > blindness > >> >  by itself doesn't prevent anyone from > living > >> independently. > >> > However, I > >> >  do wonder if minimum wage is necessary > for those > >> who don't have > >> > living > >> >  expenses or who don't manage their own > finances > >> because they are > >> >  living in custodial care situations. I'm > sure > >> there are people > >> > in > >> >  these custodial arrangements who > shouldn't be > >> there, but that > >> > almost > >> >  sounds like a separate issue. These > people aren't > >> in custodial > >> > care > >> >  because they are earning low wages, but > because > >> their parents or > >> >  others acting on their behalf have > decided they > >> don't have the > >> >  intellect or the maturity to make adult > >> decisions. Again, this > >> > should > >> >  never be said about people who are just > blind > >> without other > >> >  disabilities. As far as intellectual > disabilities > >> go, in some > >> > cases > >> >  this judgment might be right; in other > cases it > >> might be wrong. > >> > But if > >> >  someone is clearly not able to manage > adult > >> expenses, should > >> > they be > >> >  paid adult wages? It's tricky. > >> >  I can also understand the argument that > if > >> noncompetitive > >> > employment > >> >  programs for the disabled raise wages, > they can't > >> hire as many > >> >  workers. This ultimately means that > instead of a > >> bunch of > >> > disabled > >> >  workers earning crappy wages, some will > earn a > >> decent wage and > >> > others > >> >  will earn nothing. Of course, we hope > that the > >> reduction in > >> >  noncompetitive jobs might bring more > disabled > >> workers into the > >> >  competitive job market. A mandatory > minimum wage > >> would also > >> > force > >> >  companies with high salaries at the top > to > >> redistribute their > >> > payscale > >> >  more fairly. > >> >  Arielle > >> > > >> >  On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum > >> wrote: > >> >  I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you > say comes > >> true. However, > >> > there's a > >> >  lot of change we need to make in order > for this > >> to happen. Even > >> > if we > >> >  overturn the subminimum wage provision, > and I > >> hope and pray that > >> > we do, > >> >  we > >> >  can't possibly tell employers that they > have to > >> hire people with > >> >  disabilities. So, we need to change the > beliefs > >> and the > >> > attidudes of > >> >  society, including employers, about the > >> competence of blind > >> > people. I > >> >  know, > >> >  it's a big job, but I think we've made a > lot of > >> progress so far. > >> > > >> >  Just my thoughts, > >> > > >> >  Chris > >> > > >> >  -----Original Message----- > >> >  From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > >> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] > >> On > >> >  Behalf Of Humberto Avila > >> >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM > >> >  To: 'National Association of Blind > Students > >> mailing list' > >> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> >  Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope > that by > >> doing the > >> > boycott to > >> >  this > >> >  company, in the national / universal > spectrum, we > >> are able to > >> > put > >> >  pressure > >> >  on employers, and on other companies > and > >> corporations, as well > >> > as > >> >  organizations who pay subminimum wages. > We could > >> eventually end > >> > up > >> >  spreading the word of stopping companies > to pay > >> subminimum wages > >> > and they > >> >  could even see that people with > disabilities and > >> including blind > >> > people > >> >  are > >> >  capable of being paid like the sighted > >> population. If potential > >> > employers > >> >  see this change happening, those > employers will > >> have a light > >> > bulb lit up, > >> >  and will be able to see that blind > people are > >> competent, then > >> > will hire > >> >  them. Then we can make more change. I > see this > >> happening, from > >> > my > >> >  personal > >> >  opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does > this. > >> > > >> >  -----Original Message----- > >> >  From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > >> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] > >> On > >> >  Behalf Of Sophie Trist > >> >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > >> >  To: National Association of Blind > Students > >> mailing list > >> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> >  Justin, > >> > > >> >  I agree with the points you've made. If > Goodwill > >> was boycotted > >> >  universally, > >> >  it would put more pressure on them to > pay their > >> disabled workers > >> > fair > >> >  wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a > centralized > >> wage policy and > >> > gave > >> >  their > >> >  workers fair wages, other corporations > might > >> follow their lead. > >> > > >> >   ----- Original Message ----- > >> >  From: Justin Salisbury >> >  To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > >> >> Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun > >> > 2012 > >> >  23:19:15 +0000 > >> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> >  One more note: I think that local > business > >> decision-makers > >> > within > >> >  Goodwill > >> >  Industries would be educated/led to > philosophical > >> change simply > >> > by the > >> >  fact > >> >  that the corporate leaders of Goodwill > Industries > >> adopted a > >> > universal > >> >  fair > >> >  wage policy (if they did), so that would > help > >> with the > >> > education, too. > >> > > >> >  Justin M. Salisbury > >> >  Class of 2012 > >> >  B.A. in Mathematics > >> >  East Carolina University > >> >  president at alumni.ecu.edu > >> > > >> >  밡ever doubt that a small group of > thoughtful, > >> committed > >> > citizens > >> >  can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the > only > >> thing that ever > >> > has.? > >> >  뾏ARGARET MEAD > >> >  > ________________________________________ > >> >  From: Justin Salisbury > >> >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > >> >  To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >  Subject: Goodwill Boycott > >> > > >> >  Arielle, Gabe, and all: > >> > > >> >  I like the point that you've made about > the > >> decentralized wage > >> > policies > >> >  and > >> >  rewarding good locations, but do you > think that > >> perhaps a > >> > benefit to > >> >  boycotting universally would be a > possibility > >> that Goodwill > >> > Industries > >> >  would create a centralized > >> >  (universal) policy that all locations > must pay > >> their workers > >> > fair wages? > >> > > >> >  I feel like the end result that we want > is for > >> Goodwill > >> > Industries to > >> >  adopt > >> >  a universal standard of paying all > workers fair > >> wages, and the > >> > approach > >> >  that you all have mentioned seems to me > to > >> address the decisions > >> > in > >> >  individual locations.  I do > understand the > >> point of leading > >> > local > >> >  business > >> >  leaders to undergo philosophical change > and > >> choose to pay their > >> > workers > >> >  fair wages, but which item is the top > priority: > >> education of > >> > individuals > >> >  or > >> > > >> >  achievement of fair > >> wages?   That's not a rhetorical > question; I > >> >  want to hear opinions on it. > >> > > >> >  Justin > >> > > >> >  Justin M. Salisbury > >> >  Class of 2012 > >> >  B.A. in Mathematics > >> >  East Carolina University > >> >  president at alumni.ecu.edu > >> > > >> >  밡ever doubt that a small group of > thoughtful, > >> committed > >> > citizens > >> >  can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the > only > >> thing that ever > >> > has.? > >> >  뾏ARGARET MEAD > >> > > >> > > >> >  > _______________________________________________ > >> >  nabs-l mailing list > >> >  nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >  To unsubscribe, change your list options > or get > >> your account > >> > info for > >> >  nabs- > >> >  l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >> >  r%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >  > _______________________________________________ > >> >  nabs-l mailing list > >> >  nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >  To unsubscribe, change your list options > or get > >> your account > >> > info for > >> >  nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >> > iggs%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > > >> >  > _______________________________________________ > >> >  nabs-l mailing list > >> >  nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >  To unsubscribe, change your list options > or get > >> your account > >> > info for > >> >  nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >> > mail.com > >> > > >> > > >> >  > _______________________________________________ > >> >  nabs-l mailing list > >> >  nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >  To unsubscribe, change your list options > or get > >> your account > >> > info for > >> >  nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > >> > iggs%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > > >> >  > _______________________________________________ > >> >  nabs-l mailing list > >> >  nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >  http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >  To unsubscribe, change your list options > or get > >> your account > >> > info for > >> >  nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 > >> > 0students.pccua.edu > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or > get your > >> account info > >> > for nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > >> > r%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your account > >> info for nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Mon Jun 11 18:35:51 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 13:35:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind In-Reply-To: <1339439548.14387.YahooMailClassic@web162002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1339439548.14387.YahooMailClassic@web162002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a friend in another state, who said the same thing about her school for the blind. That's good, if the ASB isn't as bad as I thought it was, when I observed the kids, that should've graduated, (by looking at their grades,) but it does need to be looked at. Blessings, Joshua On 6/11/12, Anmol Bhatia wrote: > Know one is held back unless you are lacking the educational requirement > training needed to graduate or unless you need a year or two for independent > living training. But know one is held back because their classmates are > slow. > > Anmol > I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps > there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze > among flowers. > Hellen Keller > > > --- On Mon, 6/11/12, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> From: Joshua Lester >> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 12:45 PM >> I don't know where that guy got his >> info, then. >> It was someone that I met at Jumpstart, that told me this. >> I should've asked around, but it's sad that some of the >> smarter ones >> are held back, just because of those that aren't doing so >> well. >> I knew 2 19-year-old's, that should've graduated two years >> before I >> graduated from public school, but they ended up graduating, >> in 2008. >> I probably would've graduated later, had I not attended >> public school. >> These kids should be able to graduate, on time, with their >> sighted piers! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 6/11/12, Anmol Bhatia >> wrote: >> > Josh, >> > Just so you know knowone can can attend ASB past the >> age of 21. >> > >> > Anmol >> > I seldom think about my limitations, and they never >> make me sad. Perhaps >> > there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is >> vague, like a breeze >> > among flowers. >> > Hellen Keller >> > >> > >> > --- On Sun, 6/10/12, Joshua Lester >> wrote: >> > >> >> From: Joshua Lester >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list" >> >> >> >> Date: Sunday, June 10, 2012, 11:46 AM >> >> Sophie! >> >> You don't know how bad schools for the blind are! >> >> Good grief! >> >> When I attended the Jumpstart program, at Arkansas >> School >> >> for the >> >> Blind, I was sad to see kids my age, who should've >> graduated >> >> from high >> >> school, who had straight A's, be held back! >> >> I asked around, and the oldest graduates from the >> school, in >> >> 2007, was >> >> 25 years old! >> >> That's what one former student told me. >> >> Sad! >> >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> >> >> On 6/10/12, Sophie Trist >> >> wrote: >> >> > I was very fortunate to have a good TVI for >> most of my >> >> life, but >> >> > when Hurricane Katrina hit, I was forced to >> leave home >> >> and attend >> >> > a school for the blind. I was shocked at how >> horrible >> >> it was. On >> >> > my first day there, I was taken to a VI class >> and asked >> >> to read a >> >> > braille book so that they could evaluate my >> skills. >> >> Within five >> >> > minutes, they sent me right back to class. The >> TVI's >> >> there had >> >> > nothing new to teach me. I was in a >> third/fourth-grade >> >> class, and >> >> > the work was first-grade level. This boils >> down to we >> >> need better >> >> > TVI's and more of them. >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: Joshua Lester > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students >> mailing >> >> list >> >> > > >> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:11:25 -0500 >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Wow! >> >> > You're right! >> >> > I didn't have a real TVI, for 6/12th grade. >> >> > My TVI, (So called,) was a special Ed teacher, >> who >> >> ended up >> >> > getting >> >> > trained as a TVI. >> >> > If she wasn't there to help me, guess where I >> was >> >> forced to go! >> >> > Yup! >> >> > Special Ed classes! >> >> > Of course, I enjoyed it, because the >> instructor knew I >> >> didn't >> >> > need to >> >> > be there, so she allowed me to help her with >> the kids, >> >> that >> >> > actually >> >> > needed the help. >> >> > Blessings, Joshua >> >> > >> >> > On 6/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > wrote: >> >> > Hello, >> >> > I'm sure many people who have talked to >> me before >> >> know what I'm >> >> > going to >> >> > say... >> >> > It's the educational system that many of >> these >> >> problems come >> >> > down to. We >> >> > have teachers coming out of school who >> are not >> >> inspired to >> >> > create a new >> >> > style of teaching. We have teachers who >> are never >> >> taught about >> >> > disabled >> >> > students. We have blind students who are >> never >> >> taught how to ask >> >> > for >> >> > accommodations. We have parents who >> think being >> >> blind is bad! >> >> > Honestly, if I could have redone my >> education as >> >> a sighted >> >> > person, I would >> >> > not have done it. Being blind is such >> an >> >> advantage in the United >> >> > States when >> >> > going through school. You get extra time >> on >> >> everything, you get >> >> > leniency on >> >> > all your assignments if you can't finish >> them on >> >> time, you get >> >> > free >> >> > schooling, you get paid to go through >> school by >> >> SSI, you have so >> >> > many >> >> > scholarships you can apply for, you can >> use the >> >> law to fight for >> >> > accessibility with little retribution, >> you become >> >> great friends >> >> > with your >> >> > teachers just because you get to talk to >> them all >> >> the time, you >> >> > are by >> >> > nature a very active participant in your >> class, >> >> you are able to >> >> > read your >> >> > books 1000 times faster than all of the >> other >> >> students combined, >> >> > you're able >> >> > to get tutoring for free, you don't have >> to feel >> >> ashamed for >> >> > taking >> >> > advantage of any of the above benefits >> because >> >> you're disabled >> >> > and that's >> >> > what you're expected to do! >> >> > Also, the expectation of your teachers >> is rather >> >> low and when >> >> > you get 100% >> >> > on all their hardest tests they get all >> >> embarrassed, people >> >> > think it's >> >> > amazing that you're getting strait As >> when it's >> >> nothing, >> >> > (Stereotypically) >> >> > blind people are very unsocial so they >> have lots >> >> of extra time >> >> > to do school >> >> > work, you're able to actually edit your >> teacher's >> >> handouts and >> >> > instructions >> >> > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped >> letters, if you >> >> have a problem >> >> > with your >> >> > online test you can blame it on your >> screen >> >> reader crashing the >> >> > web browser, >> >> > state colleges gobble you up if you have >> ever >> >> taken an honors >> >> > class at a >> >> > community college and you have good >> grades and >> >> you've written >> >> > one of those >> >> > inspiring essays, when you write >> inspiring essays >> >> you can get >> >> > the super >> >> > arrogant feeling for a moment and say >> "That's me >> >> in the essay!", >> >> > you're able >> >> > to participate in all kinds of extra >> activities >> >> through agencies >> >> > like Global >> >> > explorers or the Light House, you can >> participate >> >> in summer job >> >> > programs >> >> > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, >> when you >> >> go to community >> >> > college or >> >> > state college you're given a guide >> through the >> >> school because >> >> > you need a >> >> > mobility lesson and you have the >> disability >> >> resource person... >> >> > I should probably stop, but you get the >> idea... >> >> > It's probably because I was homeschooled >> for the >> >> first few years >> >> > of my life >> >> > and did all kinds of super awesome >> things with my >> >> overly amazing >> >> > parents and >> >> > didn't enter public school till 5th >> grade that I >> >> have this view >> >> > of school, >> >> > but I understood that I could learn in >> public >> >> school and it was >> >> > just that >> >> > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or >> that I >> >> wasn't equipped >> >> > with the >> >> > skills or technology that was keeping me >> from >> >> learning. >> >> > There are many other factors in >> learning, like >> >> Gardiner's >> >> > multiple theory >> >> > of intelligences that play a factor in >> if one >> >> learns in school, >> >> > but thank >> >> > goodness I was able to learn that anyone >> can >> >> learn from anyone, >> >> > they just >> >> > need to know how they learn and learn >> that way! >> >> > I can give examples, but this email is >> already >> >> super long, so >> >> > I'll get off >> >> > education. >> >> > My point is that most blind people >> aren’t >> >> taught about all the >> >> > above things. >> >> > I was super lucky because my parents let >> me run >> >> my IEP meetings >> >> > and my mom >> >> > became a TVI half way through my >> schooling, but >> >> every blind >> >> > person needs to >> >> > know that school can be amazing! It is >> worth >> >> spending 8-12 years >> >> > of your >> >> > life there getting your music degree or >> dentist >> >> degree. >> >> > >> >> > Another factor is that disabled people >> are fit >> >> into even a >> >> > tighter mold of >> >> > what they are to be when disabled people >> are the >> >> most unique of >> >> > anyone. >> >> > Blind people do not belong in special ed >> classes >> >> because they >> >> > don't need >> >> > special ed. Special ed teachers are >> people who >> >> teach extreme >> >> > cases of >> >> > autistic or other mentally disabled >> people. If a >> >> blind person is >> >> > put into >> >> > that environment and they don't need it, >> they >> >> will go insane! >> >> > It's like if >> >> > Stephen Hawking would have been born >> totally >> >> disabled and people >> >> > stuck him >> >> > into special ed just because he can't >> talk! >> >> > Where would cosmology be? >> >> > Sadly it's those who break out of the >> mold and >> >> assimilate their >> >> > own way into >> >> > sighted culture in order to evade the >> label of >> >> mentally disabled >> >> > that are >> >> > fighting for these rights. >> >> > >> >> > I keep on telling people that if someone >> is >> >> considered weird >> >> > it's not them >> >> > that's weird, it's you who's weird for >> thinking >> >> that they're >> >> > weird. It's >> >> > like you thinking the person in front of >> you is >> >> going through >> >> > time the same >> >> > way you are! >> >> > >> >> > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we >> have to >> >> shuck reason >> >> > and go for >> >> > emotion. That's why we write all the >> super >> >> inspiring essays and >> >> > that's why >> >> > we have to assimilate into the sighted >> world. >> >> > Those who end up working in low under >> minimum >> >> wage jobs have >> >> > probably not >> >> > learned how to assimilate enough to pass >> off as >> >> "normal" in the >> >> > sighted >> >> > community, so that's probably why they >> can't get >> >> the entry level >> >> > jobs. >> >> > >> >> > Before someone gives the line about not >> needing >> >> to be anything >> >> > other than >> >> > blind because we are blind, let me just >> say that >> >> most of this >> >> > world likes to >> >> > think they are sighted and normal. Most >> people >> >> like to walk with >> >> > the crowd. >> >> > Those who never learn to walk with the >> crowd are >> >> considered >> >> > weird, those who >> >> > learn how to walk with the crowd then >> figure out >> >> how to rise >> >> > above it are >> >> > considered great. >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Arielle Silverman >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind >> Students >> >> mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hi Brandon, >> >> > These are all good points. I like your >> statement >> >> about blind >> >> > people >> >> > who are "nurtured to act like they are >> mentally >> >> disabled" as I >> >> > have >> >> > met a few people who unfortunately seem >> to fit >> >> that description. >> >> > The problem is that there is no >> objective test to >> >> determine what >> >> > a >> >> > person is or is not capable of doing. >> Even >> >> so-called objective >> >> > tests >> >> > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and >> don't >> >> account for >> >> > environmental factors that artificially >> limit >> >> people's abilities >> >> > or >> >> > knowledge, like what is expected of them >> by >> >> parents and >> >> > teachers, or >> >> > what skills they are or are not taught. >> There is >> >> research >> >> > showing that >> >> > when people are expected to behave or >> perform in >> >> a certain way, >> >> > they >> >> > tend to fulfill that expectation (this >> is called >> >> a >> >> > "self-fulfilling >> >> > prophesy; if you're interested in the >> research, >> >> look up >> >> > "Pygmalian >> >> > effect"). So when teachers are randomly >> told that >> >> some kids are >> >> > smarter than others, they tend to treat >> those >> >> "smart" kids >> >> > differently >> >> > without even realizing it and eventually >> the >> >> "smart" kids end up >> >> > performing better than the other kids. >> The >> >> reverse pattern too >> >> > often >> >> > happens with disabilities. People have >> so many >> >> assumptions about >> >> > how >> >> > disabilities limit potential, and people >> in >> >> authority can act in >> >> > ways >> >> > that make those assumptions come true. >> >> > I also agree that people with >> disabilities would >> >> be much more >> >> > productive in sheltered jobs if they did >> work >> >> that was >> >> > intrinsically >> >> > interesting to them and if the work was >> in a >> >> field they were >> >> > actually >> >> > good at. It is common knowledge that >> people of >> >> all ages and >> >> > mental >> >> > abilities will do a better job at any >> task if >> >> they find the task >> >> > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, >> sheltered >> >> jobs are simply >> >> > too >> >> > boring to really engage people. Also, >> people with >> >> disabilities >> >> > have >> >> > their own talents that are rarely >> utilized in >> >> sheltered jobs. I >> >> > have >> >> > figured out that if I were forced to do >> a >> >> sheltered workshop >> >> > job, I >> >> > would probably be the one losing them >> money if >> >> they paid me at >> >> > minimum >> >> > wage, because I have never been good at >> making >> >> stuff with my >> >> > hands or >> >> > using machines. Not only would I be >> bored to >> >> tears, but I just >> >> > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better >> at >> >> writing and thinking >> >> > and >> >> > doing math, so I hope that society will >> let me >> >> use those skills >> >> > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not >> skilled >> >> at. >> >> > Regarding your comment about >> unemployment among >> >> the blind, it is >> >> > true >> >> > that many fields are accessible to the >> blind >> >> these days, yet the >> >> > unemployment rate is still staggering. >> There are >> >> many reasons >> >> > for >> >> > unemployment among the blind. I think >> one reason >> >> is that >> >> > employers >> >> > want to hire applicants with relevant >> experience, >> >> and in many >> >> > fields, >> >> > the entry-level position that people get >> at first >> >> to gain >> >> > experience >> >> > isn't accessible to the blind. This >> might not be >> >> true with >> >> > programming, but in some fields it is >> really hard >> >> to get your >> >> > foot in >> >> > the door even if it's easier to work at >> higher >> >> levels. For >> >> > example, >> >> > before becoming a teacher, you need to >> do student >> >> teaching, >> >> > which >> >> > means you are working under someone else >> who >> >> might not use >> >> > accessible >> >> > materials or who will doubt your ability >> to do >> >> the job. Without >> >> > experience, it's harder to allay >> people's initial >> >> discriminatory >> >> > doubts and fears about hiring a blind >> person. >> >> Also, even within >> >> > an >> >> > accessible field, individual employers >> might use >> >> materials that >> >> > aren't >> >> > accessible to the blind. So even though >> >> programming is very >> >> > accessible, if some employers require >> you to use >> >> languages or >> >> > scripts >> >> > that aren't accessible, this will limit >> job >> >> options. >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > wrote: >> >> > Hello, >> >> > It's a tricky situation. We can't really >> say what >> >> it's like >> >> > being mentally >> >> > disabled and it's hard to say what >> mentally >> >> disabled can or can >> >> > not do. We >> >> > also can't tell if the blind who are >> nurtured to >> >> act like >> >> > mentally >> >> > disabled >> >> > people really are mentally >> disabled. >> >> > *That's a mouthful!* >> >> > I am of the opinion that mentally >> disabled people >> >> are way under >> >> > employed >> >> > and >> >> > jobs like Goodwill are completely the >> wrong job >> >> for many of >> >> > them. But I'm >> >> > not a professional and I can only say >> from >> >> personal experience >> >> > that many >> >> > mentally disabled people can do what >> they want >> >> quite well and >> >> > often it's >> >> > because they are babied and >> misunderstood >> >> that they are >> >> > pressured into >> >> > doing jobs they aren’t good at. >> >> > >> >> > I do wonder the need of blind adults to >> be >> >> working at good will >> >> > in the >> >> > first >> >> > place though when it's not that hard >> learning >> >> programming and >> >> > it's pretty >> >> > easy to get reeducated for free in the >> United >> >> States as a blind >> >> > person. If >> >> > your career isn't working out, I don't >> see why >> >> one wouldn't just >> >> > take a >> >> > class at their community college and >> change their >> >> job. I believe >> >> > SSI is >> >> > for >> >> > college students and those fresh out of >> college, >> >> or for a back >> >> > up when >> >> > work >> >> > isn't coming. I am still a student, but >> I know I >> >> have for sure >> >> > jobs if I >> >> > go >> >> > into programming or being a TVI. So >> other than >> >> the moral >> >> > issues, I'm not >> >> > sure why capable blind people are >> working at >> >> goodwill. >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > >> >> > Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Arielle Silverman >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind >> Students >> >> mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I >> was >> >> regularly donating >> >> > items >> >> > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my >> parents do >> >> as well. A >> >> > customer >> >> > boycott might not matter much but a >> donor boycott >> >> would probably >> >> > hurt >> >> > them considerably. I have to say I found >> Justin's >> >> arguments very >> >> > persuasive. I just hope that if we >> boycott all >> >> branches >> >> > nationally, we >> >> > make it very clear that what we want is >> a change >> >> to national >> >> > policy. >> >> > Interestingly, I used to rent an >> apartment from a >> >> woman (I'll >> >> > call her >> >> > S) whose full-time job was to be a >> live-in >> >> caretaker for a woman >> >> > with >> >> > Down's syndrome and significant mental >> >> retardation (I'll call >> >> > her C). >> >> > Since I rented the apartment right below >> theirs, >> >> I got to know >> >> > both S >> >> > and C quite well and learned a bit about >> C's >> >> situation. >> >> > Apparently C >> >> > is employed by a program for people >> with >> >> intellectual >> >> > disabilities >> >> > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't >> Goodwill >> >> itself. I think S. >> >> > told >> >> > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour >> for doing >> >> an extremely >> >> > menial >> >> > job although I don't remember what that >> job was >> >> exactly. >> >> > However, I >> >> > don't think C. had any living expenses >> at all >> >> because she lived >> >> > rent-free with S. She may have been >> helping pay >> >> for groceries. >> >> > The >> >> > program she was in was very custodial >> and I'm not >> >> sure she even >> >> > had >> >> > independent access to the money she >> earned at her >> >> job. >> >> > I don't think I can really judge whether >> people >> >> with >> >> > disabilities like >> >> > C.'s are capable of living without >> custodial care >> >> or spending >> >> > their >> >> > own money, any more than a deaf person >> should be >> >> able to judge >> >> > how >> >> > independent blind people can be. I do >> suspect >> >> that people like >> >> > C. >> >> > would achieve more if they were held to >> higher >> >> expectations, and >> >> > higher expectations should come with >> higher wages >> >> and more >> >> > freedom. >> >> > I definitely believe that anyone who >> lives >> >> independently should >> >> > be >> >> > paid at least the minimum wage, and I >> think it is >> >> clear that >> >> > blindness >> >> > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from >> living >> >> independently. >> >> > However, I >> >> > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary >> for those >> >> who don't have >> >> > living >> >> > expenses or who don't manage their own >> finances >> >> because they are >> >> > living in custodial care situations. I'm >> sure >> >> there are people >> >> > in >> >> > these custodial arrangements who >> shouldn't be >> >> there, but that >> >> > almost >> >> > sounds like a separate issue. These >> people aren't >> >> in custodial >> >> > care >> >> > because they are earning low wages, but >> because >> >> their parents or >> >> > others acting on their behalf have >> decided they >> >> don't have the >> >> > intellect or the maturity to make adult >> >> decisions. Again, this >> >> > should >> >> > never be said about people who are just >> blind >> >> without other >> >> > disabilities. As far as intellectual >> disabilities >> >> go, in some >> >> > cases >> >> > this judgment might be right; in other >> cases it >> >> might be wrong. >> >> > But if >> >> > someone is clearly not able to manage >> adult >> >> expenses, should >> >> > they be >> >> > paid adult wages? It's tricky. >> >> > I can also understand the argument that >> if >> >> noncompetitive >> >> > employment >> >> > programs for the disabled raise wages, >> they can't >> >> hire as many >> >> > workers. This ultimately means that >> instead of a >> >> bunch of >> >> > disabled >> >> > workers earning crappy wages, some will >> earn a >> >> decent wage and >> >> > others >> >> > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope >> that the >> >> reduction in >> >> > noncompetitive jobs might bring more >> disabled >> >> workers into the >> >> > competitive job market. A mandatory >> minimum wage >> >> would also >> >> > force >> >> > companies with high salaries at the top >> to >> >> redistribute their >> >> > payscale >> >> > more fairly. >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum >> >> wrote: >> >> > I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you >> say comes >> >> true. However, >> >> > there's a >> >> > lot of change we need to make in order >> for this >> >> to happen. Even >> >> > if we >> >> > overturn the subminimum wage provision, >> and I >> >> hope and pray that >> >> > we do, >> >> > we >> >> > can't possibly tell employers that they >> have to >> >> hire people with >> >> > disabilities. So, we need to change the >> beliefs >> >> and the >> >> > attidudes of >> >> > society, including employers, about the >> >> competence of blind >> >> > people. I >> >> > know, >> >> > it's a big job, but I think we've made a >> lot of >> >> progress so far. >> >> > >> >> > Just my thoughts, >> >> > >> >> > Chris >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> >> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> >> On >> >> > Behalf Of Humberto Avila >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM >> >> > To: 'National Association of Blind >> Students >> >> mailing list' >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope >> that by >> >> doing the >> >> > boycott to >> >> > this >> >> > company, in the national / universal >> spectrum, we >> >> are able to >> >> > put >> >> > pressure >> >> > on employers, and on other companies >> and >> >> corporations, as well >> >> > as >> >> > organizations who pay subminimum wages. >> We could >> >> eventually end >> >> > up >> >> > spreading the word of stopping companies >> to pay >> >> subminimum wages >> >> > and they >> >> > could even see that people with >> disabilities and >> >> including blind >> >> > people >> >> > are >> >> > capable of being paid like the sighted >> >> population. If potential >> >> > employers >> >> > see this change happening, those >> employers will >> >> have a light >> >> > bulb lit up, >> >> > and will be able to see that blind >> people are >> >> competent, then >> >> > will hire >> >> > them. Then we can make more change. I >> see this >> >> happening, from >> >> > my >> >> > personal >> >> > opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does >> this. >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> >> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> >> On >> >> > Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind >> Students >> >> mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Justin, >> >> > >> >> > I agree with the points you've made. If >> Goodwill >> >> was boycotted >> >> > universally, >> >> > it would put more pressure on them to >> pay their >> >> disabled workers >> >> > fair >> >> > wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a >> centralized >> >> wage policy and >> >> > gave >> >> > their >> >> > workers fair wages, other corporations >> might >> >> follow their lead. >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: Justin Salisbury > >> > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" >> >> > >> Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun >> >> > 2012 >> >> > 23:19:15 +0000 >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > One more note: I think that local >> business >> >> decision-makers >> >> > within >> >> > Goodwill >> >> > Industries would be educated/led to >> philosophical >> >> change simply >> >> > by the >> >> > fact >> >> > that the corporate leaders of Goodwill >> Industries >> >> adopted a >> >> > universal >> >> > fair >> >> > wage policy (if they did), so that would >> help >> >> with the >> >> > education, too. >> >> > >> >> > Justin M. Salisbury >> >> > Class of 2012 >> >> > B.A. in Mathematics >> >> > East Carolina University >> >> > president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> > >> >> > 밡ever doubt that a small group of >> thoughtful, >> >> committed >> >> > citizens >> >> > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the >> only >> >> thing that ever >> >> > has.? >> >> > 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> >> > >> ________________________________________ >> >> > From: Justin Salisbury >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >> >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > Subject: Goodwill Boycott >> >> > >> >> > Arielle, Gabe, and all: >> >> > >> >> > I like the point that you've made about >> the >> >> decentralized wage >> >> > policies >> >> > and >> >> > rewarding good locations, but do you >> think that >> >> perhaps a >> >> > benefit to >> >> > boycotting universally would be a >> possibility >> >> that Goodwill >> >> > Industries >> >> > would create a centralized >> >> > (universal) policy that all locations >> must pay >> >> their workers >> >> > fair wages? >> >> > >> >> > I feel like the end result that we want >> is for >> >> Goodwill >> >> > Industries to >> >> > adopt >> >> > a universal standard of paying all >> workers fair >> >> wages, and the >> >> > approach >> >> > that you all have mentioned seems to me >> to >> >> address the decisions >> >> > in >> >> > individual locations. I do >> understand the >> >> point of leading >> >> > local >> >> > business >> >> > leaders to undergo philosophical change >> and >> >> choose to pay their >> >> > workers >> >> > fair wages, but which item is the top >> priority: >> >> education of >> >> > individuals >> >> > or >> >> > >> >> > achievement of fair >> >> wages? That's not a rhetorical >> question; I >> >> > want to hear opinions on it. >> >> > >> >> > Justin >> >> > >> >> > Justin M. Salisbury >> >> > Class of 2012 >> >> > B.A. in Mathematics >> >> > East Carolina University >> >> > president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> > >> >> > 밡ever doubt that a small group of >> thoughtful, >> >> committed >> >> > citizens >> >> > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the >> only >> >> thing that ever >> >> > has.? >> >> > 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get >> >> your account >> >> > info for >> >> > nabs- >> >> > l: >> >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >> > r%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get >> >> your account >> >> > info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >> > iggs%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get >> >> your account >> >> > info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> >> > mail.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get >> >> your account >> >> > info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> >> > iggs%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get >> >> your account >> >> > info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%4 >> >> > 0students.pccua.edu >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or >> get your >> >> account info >> >> > for nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> >> > r%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> your account >> >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From gpaikens at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 19:11:23 2012 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:11:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com> <8562983C-CFAA-4BDB-9F11-324336080764@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31B567F2-AA99-4700-A571-C4D6D5D4351C@gmail.com> Yes, I see what you're getting at. If someone is making as low as $1.44, to get an average like that you would need to have somebody making well over the average as well, or what is more likely, you would need to have a whole bunch of people making just above that $7.47 mark. Depending on the state, those people may or may not be making minimum wage. This is all speculation though. No real data was given. Like you, that figure made me stop and think for a minute. -Greg On Jun 11, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Elizabeth wrote: > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabled-Employees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage >> This article gives the number of employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states have minimum wage laws that are higher than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how exactly does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the calculated average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but if what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay workers with disabilities $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>> >>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is so high. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would post in case others are interested too. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good afternoon, >>>>> >>>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention for >>>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>>> >>>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and most >>>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers with >>>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the pond >>>>> you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized by people >>>>> in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>>> >>>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >>>>> federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>>>> set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>>>> costs that exceed their fair market value. Obviously Good Will has their >>>>> hands in other activities as well, but the point stands. If taxpayers are >>>>> being asked to subsidize nonprofits to create employment opportunities for >>>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, subsidize >>>>> the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the management of these >>>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output justifying the >>>>> minimum wage in the market? >>>>> >>>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than most people >>>>> assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of output truly only >>>>> justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the wage to give them the >>>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>>> >>>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per hour. I'm >>>>> worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. The law is >>>>> discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to achieve its stated >>>>> goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but organizations wishing to >>>>> receive preferential treatment in government contracting should have to fill >>>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands now, >>>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>>> >>>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for the >>>>> blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a law on >>>>> the books that codifies the inferiority and lesser ability of those with >>>>> disabilities. We, and they, are completely correct. The boycott of Good Will >>>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us to >>>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it cost >>>>> Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their workers minimum >>>>> wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost realistically going to lead >>>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I can't see >>>>> how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is disingenuous and, >>>>> frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker currently makes $1.50 an hour. >>>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee is now >>>>> paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an extra $240 a week, and >>>>> $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees of whom this is the case (in >>>>> reality there are fewer). This would represent an annual cost increase of >>>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a pittance >>>>> to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller shops, just on a >>>>> smaller scale. The argument that all the poor unemployable disabled folks >>>>> will be sent home jobless if the law is changed is bogus and cynical. As I >>>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their business >>>>> through non-competitive contracts with the government, so the additional >>>>> labor cost would be built right into the price the government pays. And, as >>>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the dignity, >>>>> value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to support the 70, >>>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow sleep >>>>> at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that they are doing >>>>> something positive for people with disabilities. It's wrong, it's >>>>> disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me because I've lived it. If >>>>> there is a minimum wage it should apply to everybody in the employment >>>>> market, full stop. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Jun 11 19:42:48 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 15:42:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com><8562983C-CFAA-4BDB-9F11-324336080764@gmail.com> Message-ID: Elizabeth, Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I don't think there is a set corporate policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently > posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabled-Employees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage > This article gives the number of employees impacted and their average > wage. The reason that an average wage of $7.47 could still be below > minimum wage is because many states have minimum wage laws that are higher > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by > state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how exactly >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the calculated >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries >> of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >> out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but if >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue of >> paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>> what the average minimum wage for these workers would be because each >>> state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it could be higher than >>> $8.50. So they would have to on average pay workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that by >>> the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is so >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>> post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>>> Good afternoon, >>>> >>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention >>>> for >>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>> >>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and >>>> most >>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers >>>> with >>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the pond >>>> you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized by >>>> people >>>> in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>> >>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >>>> federal government, providing goods and services through >>>> non-competitive >>>> set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided >>>> at >>>> costs that exceed their fair market value. Obviously Good Will has >>>> their >>>> hands in other activities as well, but the point stands. If taxpayers >>>> are >>>> being asked to subsidize nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>>> for >>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>> subsidize >>>> the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the management of >>>> these >>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>> justifying the >>>> minimum wage in the market? >>>> >>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than most >>>> people >>>> assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of output truly >>>> only >>>> justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the wage to give them >>>> the >>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>> >>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>> hour. I'm >>>> worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. The law is >>>> discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to achieve its >>>> stated >>>> goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but organizations >>>> wishing to >>>> receive preferential treatment in government contracting should have to >>>> fill >>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>> now, >>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>> >>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for the >>>> blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>> law on >>>> the books that codifies the inferiority and lesser ability of those >>>> with >>>> disabilities. We, and they, are completely correct. The boycott of Good >>>> Will >>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>>> to >>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>> cost >>>> Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their workers >>>> minimum >>>> wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost realistically going to >>>> lead >>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I >>>> can't see >>>> how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is disingenuous and, >>>> frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker currently makes $1.50 an >>>> hour. >>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>> is now >>>> paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an extra $240 a week, >>>> and >>>> $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees of whom this is the >>>> case (in >>>> reality there are fewer). This would represent an annual cost increase >>>> of >>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>> pittance >>>> to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller shops, just >>>> on a >>>> smaller scale. The argument that all the poor unemployable disabled >>>> folks >>>> will be sent home jobless if the law is changed is bogus and cynical. >>>> As I >>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>> business >>>> through non-competitive contracts with the government, so the >>>> additional >>>> labor cost would be built right into the price the government pays. >>>> And, as >>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>> dignity, >>>> value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to support the >>>> 70, >>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>> sleep >>>> at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that they are doing >>>> something positive for people with disabilities. It's wrong, it's >>>> disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me because I've lived >>>> it. If >>>> there is a minimum wage it should apply to everybody in the employment >>>> market, full stop. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 22:02:39 2012 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:02:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com> <8562983C-CFAA-4BDB-9F11-324336080764@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ashley, You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble opinion. Take it or leave it, Kirt On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make > reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still > wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is > only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem > to > me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then > that > would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most > people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I > am > not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but > rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry > that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabled-Employees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage >> This article gives the number of employees impacted and their average >> wage. The reason that an average wage of $7.47 could still be below >> minimum wage is because many states have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >> state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries >>> of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>> out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >>> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue of >>> paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>>> >>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>> what the average minimum wage for these workers would be because each >>>> state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it could be higher than >>>> $8.50. So they would have to on average pay workers with disabilities >>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that by >>>> the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>> >>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is so >>>> >>>> high. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>> post in case others are interested too. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good afternoon, >>>>> >>>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>>> >>>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and >>>>> >>>>> most >>>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers >>>>> >>>>> with >>>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>>> pond >>>>> you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized by >>>>> people >>>>> in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>>> >>>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>>> the >>>>> federal government, providing goods and services through >>>>> non-competitive >>>>> set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided >>>>> at >>>>> costs that exceed their fair market value. Obviously Good Will has >>>>> their >>>>> hands in other activities as well, but the point stands. If taxpayers >>>>> are >>>>> being asked to subsidize nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>> subsidize >>>>> the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the management of >>>>> >>>>> these >>>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>>> justifying the >>>>> minimum wage in the market? >>>>> >>>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than most >>>>> people >>>>> assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of output truly >>>>> only >>>>> justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the wage to give them >>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>>> >>>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>>> hour. I'm >>>>> worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. The law is >>>>> discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to achieve its >>>>> stated >>>>> goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but organizations >>>>> wishing to >>>>> receive preferential treatment in government contracting should have to >>>>> >>>>> fill >>>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>>> >>>>> now, >>>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>>> >>>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for the >>>>> blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>>> law on >>>>> the books that codifies the inferiority and lesser ability of those >>>>> with >>>>> disabilities. We, and they, are completely correct. The boycott of Good >>>>> >>>>> Will >>>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>> cost >>>>> Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their workers >>>>> minimum >>>>> wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost realistically going to >>>>> >>>>> lead >>>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I >>>>> can't see >>>>> how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is disingenuous and, >>>>> frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker currently makes $1.50 an >>>>> >>>>> hour. >>>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>>> is now >>>>> paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an extra $240 a week, >>>>> and >>>>> $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees of whom this is the >>>>> case (in >>>>> reality there are fewer). This would represent an annual cost increase >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>>> pittance >>>>> to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller shops, just >>>>> on a >>>>> smaller scale. The argument that all the poor unemployable disabled >>>>> folks >>>>> will be sent home jobless if the law is changed is bogus and cynical. >>>>> As I >>>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>>> business >>>>> through non-competitive contracts with the government, so the >>>>> additional >>>>> labor cost would be built right into the price the government pays. >>>>> And, as >>>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>> dignity, >>>>> value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to support the >>>>> >>>>> 70, >>>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>>> sleep >>>>> at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that they are doing >>>>> something positive for people with disabilities. It's wrong, it's >>>>> disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me because I've lived >>>>> it. If >>>>> there is a minimum wage it should apply to everybody in the employment >>>>> market, full stop. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu Mon Jun 11 23:55:16 2012 From: PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu (Justin Salisbury) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:55:16 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Boycott Goodwill on Facebook! Message-ID: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D5F0E@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Fellow Federationists: I have created a Facebook event for our boycott of Goodwill Industries International, Inc. It can be found at the following link: http://www.facebook.com/events/453015078044368/ Please join the boycott and encourage everyone you know to do the same! Yours in Federationism, Justin Salisbury President North Carolina Association of Blind Students Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 04:17:41 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 22:17:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? Message-ID: <4fd6c2eb.20f3640a.383c.7de4@mx.google.com> Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm actually flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like some practical no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to get into the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might ask me to sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've planned a trip without a group of blind people or family around. I would like to get some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and how much it usually would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to DIA. Thanks, guys. Beth From gpaikens at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 04:58:00 2012 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:58:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? In-Reply-To: <4fd6c2eb.20f3640a.383c.7de4@mx.google.com> References: <4fd6c2eb.20f3640a.383c.7de4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <45E51C05-EF17-4DD5-B4CA-3A1F0DC88BA7@gmail.com> Hi Beth, Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I generally handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. If I am taking a cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the curb side check-in for my airline if it is available. That way I can ditch my checked bags as early as possible, because I feel like they make navigating independently a little more difficult. If you do curb side check-in, it is generally expected that you tip the person handling your bags. You can choose to follow this convention or not. I have done both. If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the part of the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have the shortest path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will listen for the counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. If it is the wrong one, they generally redirect me to the correct counter. There are often airline employees helping passengers in line to answer questions etc. so keep an ear out. Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I ask for assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this independently, but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get assistance with this step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes for them to get someone up there to assist you, but I make sure I am waiting in an area where there is an employee I can ask to make sure I have not been forgotten. These people have generally been helpful to me and have understood when I refused a wheelchair. Occasionally you'll get someone who just doesn't get it, but if you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. When you get to security there is generally a line designated for passengers with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes slower than the main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for assistance, you can ask the person with you to help judge the lines. At security, you have to put everything you have into a bin, including your shoes. I usually put my cane through the scanner with all my other stuff, but I think I have heard of people who keep it with them when they pass through the metal detector. I find it simpler to put the cane through and trail the side of the machine up to the metal detector gate. At that point I ask the security person to reach their hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk straight through the metal detector without touching the sides. All in all, I am separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact with the people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to the desk. I usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, you can choose to do this or not. The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are there to help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever uncomfortable, you should definitely say something. You are the one in control, and sometimes airport staff need to be reminded of that. Remember that you are allowed to keep your cane with you at all times, with the possible exception of passing through the metal detector. I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is helpful. Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. -Greg On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: > Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm actually flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like some practical no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to get into the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might ask me to sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've planned a trip without a group of blind people or family around. I would like to get some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and how much it usually would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to DIA. Thanks, guys. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 05:14:34 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 22:14:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? In-Reply-To: <45E51C05-EF17-4DD5-B4CA-3A1F0DC88BA7@gmail.com> References: <4fd6c2eb.20f3640a.383c.7de4@mx.google.com> <45E51C05-EF17-4DD5-B4CA-3A1F0DC88BA7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003401cd485a$42154880$c63fd980$@gmail.com> Hello, I think you should contact Ms. Arielle Silverman, who is on this list and has done this frequently and has experiences in flying by herself and doing travel altogether. I hope she is following this conversation and she can direct you, off list if you two want. I haven't flown alone or traveled alone so I am sorry to say that I don't have much to say other than directing you to this person. Good luck flying to Georgia and have fun! Cheers, umberto -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg Aikens Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? Hi Beth, Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I generally handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. If I am taking a cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the curb side check-in for my airline if it is available. That way I can ditch my checked bags as early as possible, because I feel like they make navigating independently a little more difficult. If you do curb side check-in, it is generally expected that you tip the person handling your bags. You can choose to follow this convention or not. I have done both. If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the part of the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have the shortest path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will listen for the counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. If it is the wrong one, they generally redirect me to the correct counter. There are often airline employees helping passengers in line to answer questions etc. so keep an ear out. Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I ask for assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this independently, but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get assistance with this step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes for them to get someone up there to assist you, but I make sure I am waiting in an area where there is an employee I can ask to make sure I have not been forgotten. These people have generally been helpful to me and have understood when I refused a wheelchair. Occasionally you'll get someone who just doesn't get it, but if you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. When you get to security there is generally a line designated for passengers with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes slower than the main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for assistance, you can ask the person with you to help judge the lines. At security, you have to put everything you have into a bin, including your shoes. I usually put my cane through the scanner with all my other stuff, but I think I have heard of people who keep it with them when they pass through the metal detector. I find it simpler to put the cane through and trail the side of the machine up to the metal detector gate. At that point I ask the security person to reach their hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk straight through the metal detector without touching the sides. All in all, I am separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact with the people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to the desk. I usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, you can choose to do this or not. The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are there to help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever uncomfortable, you should definitely say something. You are the one in control, and sometimes airport staff need to be reminded of that. Remember that you are allowed to keep your cane with you at all times, with the possible exception of passing through the metal detector. I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is helpful. Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. -Greg On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: > Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm actually flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like some practical no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to get into the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might ask me to sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've planned a trip without a group of blind people or family around. I would like to get some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and how much it usually would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to DIA. Thanks, guys. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From dandrews at visi.com Tue Jun 12 05:25:25 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 00:25:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ZoomText 10.0.3 released, IE 9.0 support Message-ID: From: Ai Squared [mailto:rwhite=aisquared.com at mail12.us1.rsgsv.net] On Behalf Of Ai Squared Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:19 PM Subject: ZoomText 10.0.3 is released! Description: ZoomText 10.0.3 is Released! ZoomText 10.0.3 is Released! We're excited to announce that the next free update in the ZoomText 10 cycle is here. ZoomText now fully supports Internet Explorer 9! Along with that, we also added reading support in the Thunderbird email client, improved performance when running ZoomText with JAWS, added Portuguese language support, fixed a bunch of bugs, and more. Already own version 10? Then this is a free update for you! If you've got ZoomText set to download updates automatically, you're good to go - the next time you launch ZoomText it will install the update for you. Otherwise, just go to the Help menu and choose "Check for Program Updates...". If you don't own version 10 yet and would like to, call us at 800-859-0270 or 802-362-3612 option #2 or you can go online and contact your local dealer. Feel free to reply to this email with any questions. Read more about 10, read the release notes, or download a free 60-day trial to give it a try yourself. Description: Footer Ai Squared Manchester Center, VT (800) 859-0270 www.aisquared.com Find us on: Description: Friend us on Facebook Description: Follow us on Twitter Description: Watch us on YouTube Description: Read our Zoomed In Blog -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image00157.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 97272 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image00325.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27563 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0048.png Type: image/png Size: 6547 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0054.png Type: image/png Size: 7265 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0065.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29577 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0072.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26768 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 05:36:20 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 22:36:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? In-Reply-To: <45E51C05-EF17-4DD5-B4CA-3A1F0DC88BA7@gmail.com> References: <4fd6c2eb.20f3640a.383c.7de4@mx.google.com> <45E51C05-EF17-4DD5-B4CA-3A1F0DC88BA7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, Wow, the below is pretty much exactly what I do! :O... I totally believe in asking from help from the get go, right as soon as you walk in the door. Airlines are often really good at getting you to where you need to go. They don't always know what Sighted Guide is though, so you'll probably need to ask them if you can please hold their elbow. I often make some joke about how their elbow and I are having a nice conversation about what's coming up as we're walking if they still are grabbing me despite me holding their elbow in one hand and my cane in the other. That usually helps. I also shrug off the wheelchair, saying it's way too slow. I do however love the little golf carts they sometimes take you around in, those are way faster than I could walk! But traveling with help gets you to the front of the line and keeps you from missing the flight. Also the airplane attendants know you're blind and let you know when they're coming by with the garbage or food so you don't miss it! What I'm anxious to know is how traveling overseas works... Non parlo Italiano! LOL Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? Hi Beth, Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I generally handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. If I am taking a cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the curb side check-in for my airline if it is available. That way I can ditch my checked bags as early as possible, because I feel like they make navigating independently a little more difficult. If you do curb side check-in, it is generally expected that you tip the person handling your bags. You can choose to follow this convention or not. I have done both. If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the part of the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have the shortest path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will listen for the counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. If it is the wrong one, they generally redirect me to the correct counter. There are often airline employees helping passengers in line to answer questions etc. so keep an ear out. Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I ask for assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this independently, but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get assistance with this step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes for them to get someone up there to assist you, but I make sure I am waiting in an area where there is an employee I can ask to make sure I have not been forgotten. These people have generally been helpful to me and have understood when I refused a wheelchair. Occasionally you'll get someone who just doesn't get it, but if you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. When you get to security there is generally a line designated for passengers with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes slower than the main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for assistance, you can ask the person with you to help judge the lines. At security, you have to put everything you have into a bin, including your shoes. I usually put my cane through the scanner with all my other stuff, but I think I have heard of people who keep it with them when they pass through the metal detector. I find it simpler to put the cane through and trail the side of the machine up to the metal detector gate. At that point I ask the security person to reach their hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk straight through the metal detector without touching the sides. All in all, I am separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact with the people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to the desk. I usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, you can choose to do this or not. The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are there to help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever uncomfortable, you should definitely say something. You are the one in control, and sometimes airport staff need to be reminded of that. Remember that you are allowed to keep your cane with you at all times, with the possible exception of passing through the metal detector. I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is helpful. Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. -Greg On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: > Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm actually > flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like some practical > no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. > How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to get into > the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might ask me to > sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've planned a trip > without a group of blind people or family around. I would like to get > some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and how much it usually > would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to DIA. > Thanks, guys. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 09:29:24 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 02:29:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs Needs Your Help at National Convention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As you all know, the National association of blind students is planning a lot of exciting things at national convention. What you may not know however is that we as a board can’t do all of it ourselves. So we would very much appreciate your help in making the nabs activities a success this year! Where we would most appreciate your assistance is in two areas: 1. Assistance in staffing the nabs table located in the exhibit hall. Here you will be partnered up with a nabs board member selling nabs items and handing out nabs literature. The remaining schedule for tabling looks like this: Sunday, July 1: Shift 3. 3:00p.m. – 5:00 p.m. Monday, July 2: Shift 4: 8:30 a.m. – 11:00 a.m. Shift 6: 1:00 p.m. – 3:00 p.m. Wednesday, July 4: Shift 11: 6:00p.m. – 8:30 p.m. As you can see, the shifts are filling up, so if you contact me with your preference, I will be more than happy to get you scheduled in! 2. Staffing the nabs Monte Carlo night fund raiser. This is a great opportunity to work shoulder to shoulder with us in putting together one of our most successful events that we do. For this we will need: Individuals who can work an early shift (7:00 p.m. - 9:30 p.m. Those individuals will be asked to either a. Marshal. b. Set up for the event c. Deal card games( blackjack, poker, holdemand other such games) We will also need Late shift workers (9:30 p.m. – 12:00 a.m.) Those individuals would be asked to: a. deal card games (blackjack, poker, holdem and other such games) b. Assist with event clean- up and playing chip counting. Please let me know what shift(s) you are interested in working (exhibit hall, Monte Carlo or both). Also please supply a contact phone number where you can be reached during convention. If you are interested in working Monte Carlo, please let me know what job you would like to take on, if you would like to deal and what games you would like to deal (blackjack, poker, holdem or other such games). This is a great opportunity for you to meet the nabs board, and us to get to know you. As well, this is an equally great opportunity for you to meet a lot of new people and have some fun at the same time. Please contact me if interested. I can be contacted at: dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thank you so much for your interest and I look forward to hearing from you all real soon And of course, see you in Dallas!!! Best, Darian -- Darian Smith 2nd Vice President, National Association of Blind Students "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From beckyasabo at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 13:45:34 2012 From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (rebecca sabo) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:45:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] need some help please Message-ID: Hello My name is Becky Sabo. I have been using microsoft 2003 on my lapto and I use outlook for my email but some reason lately when I read the messages I can only read three or four messages than the program freezes. I have un install it and also re install it and the issue is still there. I was wondering if I need to upgrade if so what version would I need to get to still use outlook for my email' I need this taken care of this asap any help would be great. Thanks again. Becky Sabo On 6/11/12, Greg Aikens wrote: > Hi Beth, > Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I generally > handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. If I am taking a > cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the curb side check-in for > my airline if it is available. That way I can ditch my checked bags as > early as possible, because I feel like they make navigating independently a > little more difficult. If you do curb side check-in, it is generally > expected that you tip the person handling your bags. You can choose to > follow this convention or not. I have done both. > If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the part of > the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have the shortest > path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will listen for the > counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. If it is the wrong > one, they generally redirect me to the correct counter. There are often > airline employees helping passengers in line to answer questions etc. so > keep an ear out. > > Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I ask for > assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this independently, > but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get assistance with this > step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes for them to get someone up > there to assist you, but I make sure I am waiting in an area where there is > an employee I can ask to make sure I have not been forgotten. These people > have generally been helpful to me and have understood when I refused a > wheelchair. Occasionally you'll get someone who just doesn't get it, but if > you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. > > When you get to security there is generally a line designated for passengers > with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes slower than the > main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for assistance, you can ask > the person with you to help judge the lines. At security, you have to put > everything you have into a bin, including your shoes. I usually put my cane > through the scanner with all my other stuff, but I think I have heard of > people who keep it with them when they pass through the metal detector. I > find it simpler to put the cane through and trail the side of the machine up > to the metal detector gate. At that point I ask the security person to > reach their hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk straight > through the metal detector without touching the sides. All in all, I am > separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. > > The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact with the > people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to the desk. I > usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, you can choose to do > this or not. > > The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are there to > help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever uncomfortable, you > should definitely say something. You are the one in control, and sometimes > airport staff need to be reminded of that. Remember that you are allowed to > keep your cane with you at all times, with the possible exception of passing > through the metal detector. > > I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is helpful. > Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. > > -Greg > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: > >> Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm actually >> flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like some practical >> no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. >> How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to get into >> the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might ask me to >> sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've planned a trip >> without a group of blind people or family around. I would like to get >> some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and how much it usually >> would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to DIA. >> Thanks, guys. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.com > From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Tue Jun 12 13:57:06 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd4763$0f7606a0$2e6213e0$@gmail.com><8562983C-CFAA-4BDB-9F11-324336080764@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A93@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? This would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Ashley, You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble opinion. Take it or leave it, Kirt On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you > make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when > someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the > average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a > considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve > such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily > questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather > questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >> recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabled-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >> average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >> many states have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >> state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>> these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>> how exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>> calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>> factory worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>> the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>> numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>> actually >>>> >>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>>> 7300 employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled >>>> workers less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is >>>> $7.47, which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of >>>> $7.25. I can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>> workers with disabilities >>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>> >>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>> is so >>>> >>>> high. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>> would post in case others are interested too. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good afternoon, >>>>> >>>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>>> attention >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts >>>>> are complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>>> >>>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, >>>>> largest and >>>>> >>>>> most >>>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>>> workers >>>>> >>>>> with >>>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>>>> scrutinized by people in and out of your field. That's just the >>>>> way it goes. >>>>> >>>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business >>>>> with the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>>> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>>> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>>> but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>>> nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>>> management of >>>>> >>>>> these >>>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>>> disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>>> output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>>> >>>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>>> are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level >>>>> of output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to >>>>> subsidize the wage to give them >>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>>> >>>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same >>>>> boat. The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and >>>>> fails to achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum >>>>> wage apply, but organizations wishing to receive preferential >>>>> treatment in government contracting should have to >>>>> >>>>> fill >>>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>>> stands >>>>> >>>>> now, >>>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>>> >>>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>>> rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>>> that it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of >>>>> America, have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>>> completely correct. The boycott of Good >>>>> >>>>> Will >>>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each >>>>> of us >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will >>>>> it cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all >>>>> their workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in >>>>> cost realistically going to >>>>> >>>>> lead >>>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I >>>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>> currently makes $1.50 an >>>>> >>>>> hour. >>>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>>>> employee is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>>> employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law >>>>> is changed is bogus and cynical. >>>>> As I >>>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>> government pays. >>>>> And, as >>>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than >>>>> to support the >>>>> >>>>> 70, >>>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>>> somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>>>> to everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hot >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail >>> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotma >> il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org From isaiah5719 at mchsi.com Tue Jun 12 14:09:59 2012 From: isaiah5719 at mchsi.com (Loren) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:09:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] need some help please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01da01cd48a5$0eff0490$2cfd0db0$@mchsi.com> We use Microsoft 2010. It does have outlook. Some of it I like, others not so crazy about. Loren Wakefield -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of rebecca sabo Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:46 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] need some help please Hello My name is Becky Sabo. I have been using microsoft 2003 on my lapto and I use outlook for my email but some reason lately when I read the messages I can only read three or four messages than the program freezes. I have un install it and also re install it and the issue is still there. I was wondering if I need to upgrade if so what version would I need to get to still use outlook for my email' I need this taken care of this asap any help would be great. Thanks again. Becky Sabo On 6/11/12, Greg Aikens wrote: > Hi Beth, > Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I > generally handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. > If I am taking a cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the > curb side check-in for my airline if it is available. That way I can > ditch my checked bags as early as possible, because I feel like they > make navigating independently a little more difficult. If you do > curb side check-in, it is generally expected that you tip the person > handling your bags. You can choose to follow this convention or not. I have done both. > If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the > part of the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have > the shortest path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will > listen for the counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. > If it is the wrong one, they generally redirect me to the correct > counter. There are often airline employees helping passengers in line > to answer questions etc. so keep an ear out. > > Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I > ask for assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this > independently, but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get > assistance with this step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes > for them to get someone up there to assist you, but I make sure I am > waiting in an area where there is an employee I can ask to make sure I > have not been forgotten. These people have generally been helpful to > me and have understood when I refused a wheelchair. Occasionally > you'll get someone who just doesn't get it, but if you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. > > When you get to security there is generally a line designated for > passengers with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes > slower than the main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for > assistance, you can ask the person with you to help judge the lines. > At security, you have to put everything you have into a bin, including > your shoes. I usually put my cane through the scanner with all my > other stuff, but I think I have heard of people who keep it with them > when they pass through the metal detector. I find it simpler to put > the cane through and trail the side of the machine up to the metal > detector gate. At that point I ask the security person to reach their > hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk straight through > the metal detector without touching the sides. All in all, I am separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. > > The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact > with the people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to > the desk. I usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, > you can choose to do this or not. > > The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are > there to help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever > uncomfortable, you should definitely say something. You are the one > in control, and sometimes airport staff need to be reminded of that. > Remember that you are allowed to keep your cane with you at all times, > with the possible exception of passing through the metal detector. > > I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is helpful. > Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. > > -Greg > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: > >> Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm actually >> flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like some >> practical no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. >> How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to get >> into the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might >> ask me to sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've >> planned a trip without a group of blind people or family around. I >> would like to get some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and >> how much it usually would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to DIA. >> Thanks, guys. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail. >> com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail > .com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/isaiah5719%40mchsi.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 14:25:35 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:25:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Message-ID: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: Elizabeth, Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I don't think there is a set corporate policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make change. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: Elizabeth, Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I don't think there is a set corporate policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: Elizabeth, Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I don't think there is a set corporate policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" References: <4fd770e8.a2adec0a.7467.fffffa6b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A99@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: Elizabeth, Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I don't think there is a set corporate policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A99@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <004301cd48e1$f1fc07c0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, All application software needs to be accessible to the blind and others with disabilities regardless of the operating system. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: Elizabeth, Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I don't think there is a set corporate policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" Students: First of all let me thank you for your proactive efforts in engaging around the Goodwill Boycott. I have been extremely pleased and proud of your efforts to openly discuss the issue and take concerted action to ensure the payment of fair wages to workers with disabilities. I wanted to forward the following announcement to you because you have already proven to be leaders in this effort. We will be sending an action alert to all listservs tomorrow morning. I am sending this email so that you will all be prepared to take immediate action. The Goodwill boycott has done a tremendous job of raising the public's awareness of our Fair Wages issue. We need to keep up the good work. Please be sure to check your email tomorrow morning and be prepare to take the fight to the next level. Sincerely, Anil Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Director of Strategic Communications "Eliminating Subminimum Wages For People With Disabilities" NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 685-5653 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 00:04:51 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:04:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] need some help please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: odd problem, you shouldn't need to upgrade to use outlook. -----Original Message----- From: rebecca sabo Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:45 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] need some help please Hello My name is Becky Sabo. I have been using microsoft 2003 on my lapto and I use outlook for my email but some reason lately when I read the messages I can only read three or four messages than the program freezes. I have un install it and also re install it and the issue is still there. I was wondering if I need to upgrade if so what version would I need to get to still use outlook for my email' I need this taken care of this asap any help would be great. Thanks again. Becky Sabo On 6/11/12, Greg Aikens wrote: > Hi Beth, > Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I > generally > handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. If I am taking > a > cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the curb side check-in for > my airline if it is available. That way I can ditch my checked bags as > early as possible, because I feel like they make navigating independently > a > little more difficult. If you do curb side check-in, it is generally > expected that you tip the person handling your bags. You can choose to > follow this convention or not. I have done both. > If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the part > of > the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have the shortest > path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will listen for the > counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. If it is the wrong > one, they generally redirect me to the correct counter. There are often > airline employees helping passengers in line to answer questions etc. so > keep an ear out. > > Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I ask > for > assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this > independently, > but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get assistance with > this > step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes for them to get someone up > there to assist you, but I make sure I am waiting in an area where there > is > an employee I can ask to make sure I have not been forgotten. These > people > have generally been helpful to me and have understood when I refused a > wheelchair. Occasionally you'll get someone who just doesn't get it, but > if > you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. > > When you get to security there is generally a line designated for > passengers > with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes slower than > the > main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for assistance, you can > ask > the person with you to help judge the lines. At security, you have to put > everything you have into a bin, including your shoes. I usually put my > cane > through the scanner with all my other stuff, but I think I have heard of > people who keep it with them when they pass through the metal detector. I > find it simpler to put the cane through and trail the side of the machine > up > to the metal detector gate. At that point I ask the security person to > reach their hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk straight > through the metal detector without touching the sides. All in all, I am > separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. > > The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact with > the > people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to the desk. I > usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, you can choose to > do > this or not. > > The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are there > to > help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever uncomfortable, you > should definitely say something. You are the one in control, and > sometimes > airport staff need to be reminded of that. Remember that you are allowed > to > keep your cane with you at all times, with the possible exception of > passing > through the metal detector. > > I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is helpful. > Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. > > -Greg > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: > >> Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm actually >> flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like some practical >> no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. >> How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to get >> into >> the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might ask me to >> sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've planned a trip >> without a group of blind people or family around. I would like to get >> some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and how much it usually >> would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to >> DIA. >> Thanks, guys. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 00:07:02 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:07:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: right, I don't like quotas. -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:25 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: Elizabeth, Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I don't think there is a set corporate policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" Fellow Federationists: I am going to respond to many different ideas that have been voiced since my last post on this list in one compact email. I'll list the names of the people whose comments I'm addressing. Ashley Bramlett: I, too, am from an affluent school district and know what you mean about the lack of proper independent living skills instruction. It is assumed that intelligent students can figure these things out for themselves. Perhaps we can, but I know I haven't done a phenomenal job of it, mainly because I haven't felt the pressure. I notice you mentioned a lot of challenges that you don't know how to overcome with entry-level jobs. I see your passion, and I think that you would be a great candidate to do what I'm doing starting September 10th: attending an adult program at an NFB training center. To address your policy comment, a main purpose of the boycott is to inspire Goodwill to adopt a corporate policy of only paying fair wages to its workers with disabilities. Brandon Keith Biggs: I like your approach to independence. Keep it up! Elizabeth Mohnke: You're right that the average wage doesn't make sense. I understand where it comes from, and it doesn't make sense because the truth is there, and it's morally repugnant. Pay attention to the salary of the blind CEO. One worker being paid less than the minimum wage is too many. It's not all, but it is happening. Zunaira: The hiring quota is not going to be effective for a laundry list of economic reasons. If you want more information on why it won't work, email me off-list, and I'll be happy to give you a novel to show off my recent education in economics. We already have a solution. It's called HR 3086, the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. I'm going to go out on a very short limb and say that I think the issue of Lighthouse and Hilton customer service is localized. I've never once heard of someone being asked for Lighthouse certification on anything, and I think this happens in this case because Lighthouse is funneling disabled workers to the Hilton for employment opportunities. Sean Whalen: That was an excellent message. Cindy said it well. I plan to re-post your message on the NCABS listserv. Thank you, everyone, for a great discussion. Please don't forget to join the Boycott Goodwill event on Facebook! Yours in Federationism, Justin Salisbury President North Carolina Association of Blind Students Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 02:07:06 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:07:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: NVDA screen reader News: NVDA 2012.2.1 released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007601cd4909$3c63a8f0$b52afad0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: nvda-announce-bounces at lists.nvaccess.org [mailto:nvda-announce-bounces at lists.nvaccess.org] On Behalf Of NVDA announcement list Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 6:42 PM To: NVDA announcement mailing list Subject: NVDA screen reader News: NVDA 2012.2.1 released NVDA 2012.2.1 has just been released. This release addresses several potential security issues (by upgrading Python to 2.7.3). Upgrading is recommended. To read more or manually download, please visit: http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2012.2.1Released Please consider donating to NV Access to support NVDA's continued development: http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate -- This is the NVDA announcement mailing list. To unsubscribe or edit your options, please visit: http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-announce From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 13 02:24:11 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:24:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D60F9@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7D60F9@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hey, Justin! Like the signature, but don't know who the author is. You're right, that all workers should get fair wages. BTW, what center are you attending? Thanks, Joshua On 6/12/12, Justin Salisbury wrote: > Fellow Federationists: > > I am going to respond to many different ideas that have been voiced since my > last post on this list in one compact email. I'll list the names of the > people whose comments I'm addressing. > > Ashley Bramlett: > I, too, am from an affluent school district and know what you mean about the > lack of proper independent living skills instruction. It is assumed that > intelligent students can figure these things out for themselves. Perhaps we > can, but I know I haven't done a phenomenal job of it, mainly because I > haven't felt the pressure. I notice you mentioned a lot of challenges that > you don't know how to overcome with entry-level jobs. I see your passion, > and I think that you would be a great candidate to do what I'm doing > starting September 10th: attending an adult program at an NFB training > center. > To address your policy comment, a main purpose of the boycott is to inspire > Goodwill to adopt a corporate policy of only paying fair wages to its > workers with disabilities. > > Brandon Keith Biggs: > I like your approach to independence. Keep it up! > > Elizabeth Mohnke: > You're right that the average wage doesn't make sense. I understand where > it comes from, and it doesn't make sense because the truth is there, and > it's morally repugnant. Pay attention to the salary of the blind CEO. One > worker being paid less than the minimum wage is too many. It's not all, but > it is happening. > > Zunaira: > The hiring quota is not going to be effective for a laundry list of economic > reasons. If you want more information on why it won't work, email me > off-list, and I'll be happy to give you a novel to show off my recent > education in economics. We already have a solution. It's called HR 3086, > the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. I'm going to go out on a > very short limb and say that I think the issue of Lighthouse and Hilton > customer service is localized. I've never once heard of someone being asked > for Lighthouse certification on anything, and I think this happens in this > case because Lighthouse is funneling disabled workers to the Hilton for > employment opportunities. > > Sean Whalen: > That was an excellent message. Cindy said it well. I plan to re-post your > message on the NCABS listserv. > > Thank you, everyone, for a great discussion. Please don't forget to join > the Boycott Goodwill event on Facebook! > > Yours in Federationism, > > Justin Salisbury > President > North Carolina Association of Blind Students > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change > the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 02:24:32 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:24:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should you tell them you're blind? Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually impaired, but I think that's against the law. I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell yourself in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad vision, not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually impaired, and it's not TOB). If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible products used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is an obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a disability. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make change. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: Elizabeth, Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I don't think there is a set corporate policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" Sight, and vision are two different things. Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. Vision, is mental/spiritual. The NFB has lots of vision! If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? > I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're > blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should > you tell them you're blind? > Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually > impaired, but I think that's against the law. > I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell yourself > in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually > impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad vision, > > not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually > impaired, and it's not TOB). > If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too > elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. > But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the > workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be > accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible products > > used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. > Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made > accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is an > > obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring > about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a > disability. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Wasif, Zunaira > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles > such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know > that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only > way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through > reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA > and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day > who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a > program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that > employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! > It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level > building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is > reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but > the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or > through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street > like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification > from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even > interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every > day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service > job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the > Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want > their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse > that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how > do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? > They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, > yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax > break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to > hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government > pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive > off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the > corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the > quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe > it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of > proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I > would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make > change. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the > past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be > ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected > or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue > reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're > worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. > Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? > This > would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle > for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Ashley, > You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're > probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes > sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the > minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. > Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one > of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble > opinion. > Take it or leave it, > Kirt > > On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are > > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you > make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when > someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the > average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable > amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an > average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the > information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the > information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. > I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently > posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > > http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl > ed-E > mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of > employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average > wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states > have minimum wage laws that are higher > > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by > state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these > employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > exactly > > does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the > calculated > > average of these employees also includes the outrageously high > salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect > would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory > worker or the > > average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the > national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but > if > > what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > > of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually > impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > > make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 > employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less > than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is > actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say > what the average minimum wage for these workers > > would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > > could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay > workers with disabilities > $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > > by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is > so > > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would > post in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media > attention > > for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are > complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest > and > > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay > workers > > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > > pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized > by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with > the federal government, providing goods and services through > non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are > frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. > Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but > the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits > to create employment opportunities > > for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, > subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > > management of > > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled > individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output > justifying the minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are > incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > > most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of > output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the > wage to give them > > the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > > hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. > The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to > achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but > organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government > contracting should have to > > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with > disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > > now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > > the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights > organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is > reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a > law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > > lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are > completely correct. The boycott of Good > > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us > > to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it > cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their > workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost > realistically going to > > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? > I > > can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is > disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker > currently makes $1.50 an > > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee > is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > > extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees > of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > This would represent an annual cost increase > > of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > > pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > > shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor > unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is > changed is bogus and cynical. > As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > > business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > > the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the > government pays. > And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the > dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to > support the > > 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow > sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > > they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > > because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > everybody in the employment market, full stop. > > Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > a > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > ot > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > ail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > otma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif > %40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 02:33:55 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:33:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott/Fair Wages Action Alert In-Reply-To: <0DDD28A4FA62284D8DA98DCAA627571705AAA2CEB0@VA3DIAXVS651.RED001.local> References: <0DDD28A4FA62284D8DA98DCAA627571705AAA2CEB0@VA3DIAXVS651.RED001.local> Message-ID: <000d01cd490c$fe6cc9b0$fb465d10$@gmail.com> Anil, Thank you for sending us this little teaser, and for your leadership in our fight against subminimum wages!! I'll be sure to check my email and look for this action alert! Also, it looks like we got some good coverage on WUSA in DC! Great article and interview! For those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about, I encourage you to read the email Chris Danielsen sent out to all of the lists and click on the link to read and watch some great coverage we got about the Goodwill boycott on WUSA channel 9, the CBS affiliate in Washington, DC. Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lewis, Anil Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott/Fair Wages Action Alert Students: First of all let me thank you for your proactive efforts in engaging around the Goodwill Boycott. I have been extremely pleased and proud of your efforts to openly discuss the issue and take concerted action to ensure the payment of fair wages to workers with disabilities. I wanted to forward the following announcement to you because you have already proven to be leaders in this effort. We will be sending an action alert to all listservs tomorrow morning. I am sending this email so that you will all be prepared to take immediate action. The Goodwill boycott has done a tremendous job of raising the public's awareness of our Fair Wages issue. We need to keep up the good work. Please be sure to check your email tomorrow morning and be prepare to take the fight to the next level. Sincerely, Anil Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Director of Strategic Communications "Eliminating Subminimum Wages For People With Disabilities" NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 685-5653 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 02:53:26 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:53:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Message-ID: <4fd800c6.20f3640a.3e40.ffff8019@mx.google.com> Brandon, I don't know how I feel about the whole blind vs visually impaired thing. I, for one, am totally blind. I have no vision whatsoever, and I'm not ashamed of this in any way. But I can also see where you're coming from. Right now, I am in the process of getting a short story published, and nowhere in my queery letter does it mention that I'm blind. They won't know until they meet me face-to-face, and by that time, they will have read my story and will evaluate me based on my work, not on my blindness. My stance on this is that we shouldn't volunteer information about our blindness, but if asked, we shouldn't be evasive by saying that we totally blind people are merely visually impaired. Of course, this is just my humble opinion. :) Best wishes, Sophie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Elizabeth, Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I don't think there is a set corporate policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello Josh, We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is weird unfortunately. I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who you're selling to. A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to a strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to assimilate into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest mountain tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy up our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability imaginable. I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this time. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" Sight, and vision are two different things. Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. Vision, is mental/spiritual. The NFB has lots of vision! If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? > I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're > blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should > you tell them you're blind? > Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually > impaired, but I think that's against the law. > I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell yourself > in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually > impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad > vision, > > not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually > impaired, and it's not TOB). > If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too > elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. > But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the > workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be > accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible > products > > used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. > Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made > accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is > an > > obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring > about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a > disability. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Wasif, Zunaira > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles > such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know > that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only > way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through > reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA > and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day > who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a > program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that > employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! > It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level > building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is > reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but > the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or > through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street > like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification > from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even > interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every > day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service > job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the > Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want > their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse > that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how > do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? > They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, > yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax > break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to > hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government > pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive > off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the > corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the > quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe > it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of > proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I > would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make > change. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the > past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be > ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected > or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue > reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're > worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. > Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? > This > would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle > for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Ashley, > You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're > probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes > sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the > minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. > Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one > of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble > opinion. > Take it or leave it, > Kirt > > On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are > > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you > make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when > someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the > average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable > amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an > average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the > information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the > information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. > I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently > posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > > http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl > ed-E > mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of > employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average > wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states > have minimum wage laws that are higher > > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by > state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these > employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > exactly > > does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the > calculated > > average of these employees also includes the outrageously high > salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect > would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory > worker or the > > average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the > national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but > if > > what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > > of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually > impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > > make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 > employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less > than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is > actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say > what the average minimum wage for these workers > > would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > > could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay > workers with disabilities > $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > > by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is > so > > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would > post in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media > attention > > for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are > complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest > and > > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay > workers > > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > > pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized > by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with > the federal government, providing goods and services through > non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are > frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. > Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but > the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits > to create employment opportunities > > for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, > subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > > management of > > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled > individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output > justifying the minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are > incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > > most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of > output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the > wage to give them > > the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > > hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. > The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to > achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but > organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government > contracting should have to > > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with > disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > > now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > > the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights > organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is > reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a > law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > > lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are > completely correct. The boycott of Good > > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us > > to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it > cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their > workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost > realistically going to > > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? > I > > can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is > disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker > currently makes $1.50 an > > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee > is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > > extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees > of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > This would represent an annual cost increase > > of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > > pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > > shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor > unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is > changed is bogus and cynical. > As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > > business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > > the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the > government pays. > And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the > dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to > support the > > 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow > sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > > they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > > because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > everybody in the employment market, full stop. > > Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > a > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > ot > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > ail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > otma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif > %40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 13 03:06:42 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:06:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: I agree with your points here. I'd say though, it's sad that famous people have tried to do it, and have failed, miserably. I thought, that the following blind musicians did a good job of making it coool, as you put it. #1. Ray Charles. #2. Stevie Wonder #3. The Blind Boys of Alabama, and the Five Blind Boys of Mississippi, (yes, I included Gospel groups.) #4. Ronnie Milsap, (he needs to put out something new!) Also, who could forget the late Doc Watson? These guys are my role models, that I look to, because they didn't let blindness stop them! I'm also proud of Parnelle Diggs, for doing what no other blind person has tried to do, or at least, not in Arkansas! He ran for congress! I hope he wins, BTW. That way, he can be that someone famous, that we're hoping for! Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello Josh, > We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community > calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is > weird unfortunately. > I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling > something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who > you're selling to. > A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I > wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to a > > strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm > trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." > It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to assimilate > > into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. > I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest mountain > > tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy up > > our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're > infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off > onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability > imaginable. > I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this > time. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. > I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" > Sight, and vision are two different things. > Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. > Vision, is mental/spiritual. > The NFB has lots of vision! > If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. > We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? >> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're >> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should >> you tell them you're blind? >> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually >> impaired, but I think that's against the law. >> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell >> yourself >> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually >> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad >> vision, >> >> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually >> impaired, and it's not TOB). >> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too >> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. >> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the >> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be >> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible >> products >> >> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. >> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made >> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is >> >> an >> >> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring >> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a >> disability. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wasif, Zunaira >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only >> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I >> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >> change. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >> This >> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Ashley, >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >> opinion. >> Take it or leave it, >> Kirt >> >> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Elizabeth, >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >> >> paid >> >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >> pay. I >> >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >> information that was cited in the article itself. >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >> I am >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >> ed-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >> have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >> state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >> exactly >> >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >> calculated >> >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >> worker or the >> >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >> if >> >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >> of paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >> what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >> workers with disabilities >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >> >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >> so >> >> high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >> post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >> the federal government, providing goods and services through >> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >> to create employment opportunities >> >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >> management of >> >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >> wage to give them >> >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >> contracting should have to >> >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >> completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >> >> to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >> realistically going to >> >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >> I >> >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >> currently makes $1.50 an >> >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >> This would represent an annual cost increase >> >> of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >> changed is bogus and cynical. >> As I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >> government pays. >> And, as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >> support the >> >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >> a >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >> ot >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >> ail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >> otma >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif >> %40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 03:39:28 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:39:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net><39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <9839756AD81344A7ADEEB9C20EB10B61@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, Stevie Wonder hasn't made it a big deal that he supports any blind organization, Andrea Bocelli hasn't made it a big deal he's a part of any big organization, Ray Charles in the movie about him didn't even use a cane, so I wonder if they really do want to promote independence? I haven't heard about Wonder taking the stage with his dance moves, the articles I've read make Bocelli out as having a noticeable blindness on stage. I perform all the time on stage and people have no idea that I'm blind. That's why I get parts! I've actually never been hired as a blind person, so I'm not sure if I should be insulted or not... But the parts that call for "A blind actor" are far and few between, so I don't think these stars need to be promoting their blindness. Blindness is just a part of one, like being blond or being tall. Why should I make a big deal about it? Sure it's a great marketing strategy, but once people come to watch you perform, you want to blow them away. None of this "I'm going to sit at the piano and don't move like everyone expects me to do..." The only reason why I didn't become a dancer was because I can't stand to watch dancing... It's super boring! But I love dancing, and I've never had any problem with any of my dance teems, dance recitals or dancing in a musical. Once you're out there, everyone should be equal and even professional performers have a hard time seeing on stage, so in some respects it's easier for you to be dashing around at a hundred million miles an hour, because you don't need to wait for your eyes to adjust! I've been sighted guide so many times I can't count. Sighted people are totally blind for a little bit when they are plunged from staring into 4 or 5 floodlights to having them turned off instantly so everyone is in pitch blackness. I'm just a little curious why these stars aren’t making blindness cool... They can, products blind people use and the way blind people do things is cool, but I've never seen anyone use Jaws on the Ellen show. Perhaps more actors will come out of college and we can start making a presence in the professional performing and acting world, other than the scant handful of professionals I know. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. I agree with your points here. I'd say though, it's sad that famous people have tried to do it, and have failed, miserably. I thought, that the following blind musicians did a good job of making it coool, as you put it. #1. Ray Charles. #2. Stevie Wonder #3. The Blind Boys of Alabama, and the Five Blind Boys of Mississippi, (yes, I included Gospel groups.) #4. Ronnie Milsap, (he needs to put out something new!) Also, who could forget the late Doc Watson? These guys are my role models, that I look to, because they didn't let blindness stop them! I'm also proud of Parnelle Diggs, for doing what no other blind person has tried to do, or at least, not in Arkansas! He ran for congress! I hope he wins, BTW. That way, he can be that someone famous, that we're hoping for! Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello Josh, > We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community > calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is > weird unfortunately. > I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling > something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who > you're selling to. > A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I > wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to > a > > strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm > trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." > It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to > assimilate > > into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. > I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest > mountain > > tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy > up > > our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're > infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off > onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability > imaginable. > I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this > time. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. > I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" > Sight, and vision are two different things. > Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. > Vision, is mental/spiritual. > The NFB has lots of vision! > If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. > We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? >> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're >> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should >> you tell them you're blind? >> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually >> impaired, but I think that's against the law. >> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell >> yourself >> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually >> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad >> vision, >> >> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually >> impaired, and it's not TOB). >> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too >> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. >> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the >> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be >> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible >> products >> >> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. >> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made >> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is >> >> an >> >> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring >> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a >> disability. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wasif, Zunaira >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only >> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I >> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >> change. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >> This >> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Ashley, >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >> opinion. >> Take it or leave it, >> Kirt >> >> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Elizabeth, >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >> >> paid >> >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >> pay. I >> >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >> information that was cited in the article itself. >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >> I am >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >> ed-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >> have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >> state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >> exactly >> >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >> calculated >> >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >> worker or the >> >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >> if >> >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >> of paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >> what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >> workers with disabilities >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >> >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >> so >> >> high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >> post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >> the federal government, providing goods and services through >> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >> to create employment opportunities >> >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >> management of >> >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >> wage to give them >> >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >> contracting should have to >> >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >> completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >> >> to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >> realistically going to >> >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >> I >> >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >> currently makes $1.50 an >> >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >> This would represent an annual cost increase >> >> of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >> changed is bogus and cynical. >> As I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >> government pays. >> And, as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >> support the >> >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >> a >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >> ot >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >> ail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >> otma >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif >> %40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From kea.anderson at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 03:47:20 2012 From: kea.anderson at gmail.com (Karen Anderson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:47:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <4fd80d49.447cb60a.6f50.378b@mx.google.com> Hello Brandon and all, While I understand where you are coming from, I don't feel your argument holds up. I am all for assimilating into a sighted world, but I don't think calling myself "visually impaired," falls into that category. To me, fitting into a sighted world involves understanding social cues, and using my alternative techniques to the best of my ability to accomplish the same activities as my sighted peers. Assimilating into sighted culture means knowing not to eat your mashed potatoes with your hands, and not sticking your nose in your food while you're trying to see if you've cut a piece of meat. To me, "blind" is just a word, and "blindness" is just one of the characteristics that makes me me. Furthermore, the more we shy away from using that 5 letter word, the less we will be accepted into society. While saying "visually impaired" is sometimes more accepted in today's culture, it serves little purpose other than to further the hierarchy of sight. I am no better or worse off than someone who has some vision, or someone who is fully sighted. We are all people, with our own strengths and weaknesses. Buying into the argument that "visually impaired" and other such phrases are more socially acceptable also reinforces the negative stereotype that a completely blind person is inherently less capable than someone who has some remaining vision. As a member of the NFB, I believe in standing up for my rights, as well as the rights of other blind people, whether they have some vision or not. I feel that if we want society to accept us, we first have to accept ourselves. Just my thoughts, Karen -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hello Josh, We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is weird unfortunately. I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who you're selling to. A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to a strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to assimilate into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest mountain tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy up our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability imaginable. I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this time. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" Sight, and vision are two different things. Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. Vision, is mental/spiritual. The NFB has lots of vision! If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? > I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're > blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should > you tell them you're blind? > Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually > impaired, but I think that's against the law. > I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell yourself > in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually > impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad > vision, > > not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually > impaired, and it's not TOB). > If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too > elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. > But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the > workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be > accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible > products > > used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. > Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made > accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is > an > > obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring > about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a > disability. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Wasif, Zunaira > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles > such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know > that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only > way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through > reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA > and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day > who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a > program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that > employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! > It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level > building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is > reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but > the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or > through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street > like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification > from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even > interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every > day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service > job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the > Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want > their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse > that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how > do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? > They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, > yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax > break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to > hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government > pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive > off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the > corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the > quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe > it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of > proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I > would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make > change. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the > past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be > ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected > or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue > reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're > worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. > Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? > This > would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle > for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Ashley, > You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're > probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes > sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the > minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. > Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one > of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble > opinion. > Take it or leave it, > Kirt > > On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are > > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you > make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when > someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the > average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable > amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an > average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the > information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the > information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. > I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently > posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > > http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl > ed-E > mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of > employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average > wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states > have minimum wage laws that are higher > > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by > state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these > employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > exactly > > does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the > calculated > > average of these employees also includes the outrageously high > salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect > would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory > worker or the > > average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the > national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but > if > > what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > > of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually > impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > > make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 > employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less > than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is > actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say > what the average minimum wage for these workers > > would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > > could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay > workers with disabilities > $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > > by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is > so > > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would > post in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media > attention > > for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are > complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest > and > > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay > workers > > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > > pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized > by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with > the federal government, providing goods and services through > non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are > frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. > Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but > the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits > to create employment opportunities > > for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, > subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > > management of > > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled > individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output > justifying the minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are > incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > > most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of > output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the > wage to give them > > the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > > hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. > The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to > achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but > organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government > contracting should have to > > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with > disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > > now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > > the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights > organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is > reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a > law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > > lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are > completely correct. The boycott of Good > > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us > > to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it > cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their > workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost > realistically going to > > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? > I > > can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is > disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker > currently makes $1.50 an > > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee > is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > > extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees > of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > This would represent an annual cost increase > > of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > > pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > > shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor > unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is > changed is bogus and cynical. > As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > > business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > > the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the > government pays. > And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the > dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to > support the > > 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow > sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > > they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > > because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > everybody in the employment market, full stop. > > Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > a > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > ot > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > ail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > otma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif > %40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai l.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.p ccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kea.anderson%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 13 03:50:57 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:50:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <9839756AD81344A7ADEEB9C20EB10B61@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> <9839756AD81344A7ADEEB9C20EB10B61@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: What about Jose Filiciano? Thanks, Joshua On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > Stevie Wonder hasn't made it a big deal that he supports any blind > organization, Andrea Bocelli hasn't made it a big deal he's a part of any > big organization, Ray Charles in the movie about him didn't even use a cane, > so I wonder if they really do want to promote independence? > I haven't heard about Wonder taking the stage with his dance moves, the > articles I've read make Bocelli out as having a noticeable blindness on > stage. I perform all the time on stage and people have no idea that I'm > blind. That's why I get parts! I've actually never been hired as a blind > person, so I'm not sure if I should be insulted or not... > But the parts that call for "A blind actor" are far and few between, so I > don't think these stars need to be promoting their blindness. Blindness is > just a part of one, like being blond or being tall. Why should I make a big > deal about it? Sure it's a great marketing strategy, but once people come to > watch you perform, you want to blow them away. None of this "I'm going to > sit at the piano and don't move like everyone expects me to do..." > The only reason why I didn't become a dancer was because I can't stand to > watch dancing... It's super boring! But I love dancing, and I've never had > any problem with any of my dance teems, dance recitals or dancing in a > musical. Once you're out there, everyone should be equal and even > professional performers have a hard time seeing on stage, so in some > respects it's easier for you to be dashing around at a hundred million miles > an hour, because you don't need to wait for your eyes to adjust! I've been > sighted guide so many times I can't count. Sighted people are totally blind > for a little bit when they are plunged from staring into 4 or 5 floodlights > to having them turned off instantly so everyone is in pitch blackness. > I'm just a little curious why these stars aren’t making blindness cool... > They can, products blind people use and the way blind people do things is > cool, but I've never seen anyone use Jaws on the Ellen show. > Perhaps more actors will come out of college and we can start making a > presence in the professional performing and acting world, other than the > scant handful of professionals I know. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:06 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > I agree with your points here. > I'd say though, it's sad that famous people have tried to do it, and > have failed, miserably. > I thought, that the following blind musicians did a good job of making > it coool, as you put it. > #1. Ray Charles. > #2. Stevie Wonder > #3. The Blind Boys of Alabama, and the Five Blind Boys of Mississippi, > (yes, I included Gospel groups.) > #4. Ronnie Milsap, (he needs to put out something new!) > Also, who could forget the late Doc Watson? > These guys are my role models, that I look to, because they didn't let > blindness stop them! > I'm also proud of Parnelle Diggs, for doing what no other blind person > has tried to do, or at least, not in Arkansas! > He ran for congress! > I hope he wins, BTW. > That way, he can be that someone famous, that we're hoping for! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello Josh, >> We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community >> calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is >> weird unfortunately. >> I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling >> something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who >> you're selling to. >> A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I >> wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to >> a >> >> strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm >> trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." >> It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to >> assimilate >> >> into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. >> I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest >> mountain >> >> tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy >> up >> >> our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're >> infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off >> onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability >> imaginable. >> I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this >> time. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. >> I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" >> Sight, and vision are two different things. >> Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. >> Vision, is mental/spiritual. >> The NFB has lots of vision! >> If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. >> We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? >>> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're >>> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should >>> you tell them you're blind? >>> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually >>> impaired, but I think that's against the law. >>> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell >>> yourself >>> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually >>> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad >>> vision, >>> >>> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually >>> impaired, and it's not TOB). >>> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too >>> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. >>> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the >>> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be >>> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible >>> products >>> >>> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. >>> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made >>> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is >>> >>> an >>> >>> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring >>> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a >>> disability. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Wasif, Zunaira >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only >>> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I >>> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>> change. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>> This >>> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >>> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>> opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>> pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>> information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>> I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>> ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>> have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>> state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>> exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>> calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >>> worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >>> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>> if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>> what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>> workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>> so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>> post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>> the federal government, providing goods and services through >>> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>> to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>> wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>> contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>> completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>> realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>> I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>> currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>> changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>> government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>> support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >>> a >>> il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >>> ot >>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >>> ail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >>> otma >>> il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>> 0eart >>> hlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif >>> %40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 13 03:54:57 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:54:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <4fd80d49.447cb60a.6f50.378b@mx.google.com> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> <4fd80d49.447cb60a.6f50.378b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Right on! Just think of how many songs would be ruined! "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me." I once was lost, but now I'm found, twas Blind, but now I see!" Put visually impaired, in, to replace blind, and you've ruined the hymn! Just saying! Good grief! Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Karen Anderson wrote: > Hello Brandon and all, > > While I understand where you are coming from, I don't feel your argument > holds up. I am all for assimilating into a sighted world, but I don't think > calling myself "visually impaired," falls into that category. To me, > fitting > into a sighted world involves understanding social cues, and using my > alternative techniques to the best of my ability to accomplish the same > activities as my sighted peers. Assimilating into sighted culture means > knowing not to eat your mashed potatoes with your hands, and not sticking > your nose in your food while you're trying to see if you've cut a piece of > meat. > To me, "blind" is just a word, and "blindness" is just one of the > characteristics that makes me me. Furthermore, the more we shy away from > using that 5 letter word, the less we will be accepted into society. While > saying "visually impaired" is sometimes more accepted in today's culture, > it > serves little purpose other than to further the hierarchy of sight. I am no > better or worse off than someone who has some vision, or someone who is > fully sighted. We are all people, with our own strengths and weaknesses. > Buying into the argument that "visually impaired" and other such phrases > are > more socially acceptable also reinforces the negative stereotype that a > completely blind person is inherently less capable than someone who has > some > remaining vision. As a member of the NFB, I believe in standing up for my > rights, as well as the rights of other blind people, whether they have some > vision or not. I feel that if we want society to accept us, we first have > to > accept ourselves. > > Just my thoughts, > > Karen > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Brandon Keith Biggs > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:59 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hello Josh, > We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community > calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is > weird unfortunately. > I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling > something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who > you're selling to. > A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I > wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to a > > strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm > trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." > It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to > assimilate > > into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. > I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest mountain > > tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy > up > > our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're > infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off > onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability > imaginable. > I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this > time. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. > I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" > Sight, and vision are two different things. > Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. > Vision, is mental/spiritual. > The NFB has lots of vision! > If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. > We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? >> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're >> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should >> you tell them you're blind? >> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually >> impaired, but I think that's against the law. >> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell >> yourself >> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually >> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad >> vision, >> >> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually >> impaired, and it's not TOB). >> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too >> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. >> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the >> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be >> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible >> products >> >> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. >> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made >> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is >> >> an >> >> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring >> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a >> disability. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wasif, Zunaira >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only >> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I >> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >> change. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >> This >> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Ashley, >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >> opinion. >> Take it or leave it, >> Kirt >> >> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Elizabeth, >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >> >> paid >> >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >> pay. I >> >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >> information that was cited in the article itself. >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >> I am >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >> ed-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >> have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >> state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >> exactly >> >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >> calculated >> >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >> worker or the >> >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >> if >> >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >> of paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >> what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >> workers with disabilities >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >> >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >> so >> >> high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >> post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >> the federal government, providing goods and services through >> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >> to create employment opportunities >> >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >> management of >> >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >> wage to give them >> >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >> contracting should have to >> >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >> completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >> >> to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >> realistically going to >> >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >> I >> >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >> currently makes $1.50 an >> >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >> This would represent an annual cost increase >> >> of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >> changed is bogus and cynical. >> As I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >> government pays. >> And, as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >> support the >> >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >> a >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >> ot >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >> ail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >> otma >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif >> %40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai > l.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.p > ccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kea.anderson%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 04:25:25 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:25:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <4fd80d49.447cb60a.6f50.378b@mx.google.com> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net><39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> <4fd80d49.447cb60a.6f50.378b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4FEC3E533D054ACAB2564FF1C8293EE8@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, The topic is being hired by sighted people. The fact is, sighted employers and sighted people in general think that saying "I'm blind" is repulsive and undesirable. Your aim when you go into interview for a job is to get the job, so if that means pandering to make your blindness more acceptable on the first introduction, I would do it. Often it's the difference between getting the job or not. That first impression needs to deemphasize the blindness and emphasize your qualifications and ability to do the job better than everyone else. After you get the job you can go in with your glass eyes hanging in a bag around your neck with a big shirt proclaiming in big huge letters (Both in Braille and large print): I'm blind and I'm proud! You can also advertise the Braille coins and anything else your heart desires in order to feel the best you possibly can about yourself. But that interview is all about the employer and not about you. Don't make it about you until the very end or until you get the job. When I go into an audition I always try to ask right before I get off stage if the directors have any questions about my visual impairment, but that's almost like an afterthought and not even really worth their consideration. Before an audition if there is a cold-read I ask if I could please have the cold reads ahead of time, so I can put them into an accessible format because I'm visually impaired. I've said, I'm blind, can I please have the cold reads so I can read them with my screen reader, but they don't give them to me. Once you put that blindness statement in there, they get all scared and just ignore you. I've had it happen to me many times and it's much worse being rejected just on the principal that you're blind than it is being rejected after they have met you, seen you, heard you, talked to you and seen your enthusiasm. But totally go all out with your friends and coworkers about being blind, but after you get the job! Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Karen Anderson Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:47 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hello Brandon and all, While I understand where you are coming from, I don't feel your argument holds up. I am all for assimilating into a sighted world, but I don't think calling myself "visually impaired," falls into that category. To me, fitting into a sighted world involves understanding social cues, and using my alternative techniques to the best of my ability to accomplish the same activities as my sighted peers. Assimilating into sighted culture means knowing not to eat your mashed potatoes with your hands, and not sticking your nose in your food while you're trying to see if you've cut a piece of meat. To me, "blind" is just a word, and "blindness" is just one of the characteristics that makes me me. Furthermore, the more we shy away from using that 5 letter word, the less we will be accepted into society. While saying "visually impaired" is sometimes more accepted in today's culture, it serves little purpose other than to further the hierarchy of sight. I am no better or worse off than someone who has some vision, or someone who is fully sighted. We are all people, with our own strengths and weaknesses. Buying into the argument that "visually impaired" and other such phrases are more socially acceptable also reinforces the negative stereotype that a completely blind person is inherently less capable than someone who has some remaining vision. As a member of the NFB, I believe in standing up for my rights, as well as the rights of other blind people, whether they have some vision or not. I feel that if we want society to accept us, we first have to accept ourselves. Just my thoughts, Karen -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hello Josh, We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is weird unfortunately. I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who you're selling to. A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to a strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to assimilate into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest mountain tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy up our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability imaginable. I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this time. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" Sight, and vision are two different things. Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. Vision, is mental/spiritual. The NFB has lots of vision! If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? > I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're > blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should > you tell them you're blind? > Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually > impaired, but I think that's against the law. > I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell yourself > in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually > impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad > vision, > > not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually > impaired, and it's not TOB). > If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too > elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. > But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the > workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be > accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible > products > > used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. > Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made > accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is > an > > obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring > about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a > disability. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Wasif, Zunaira > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles > such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know > that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only > way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through > reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA > and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day > who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a > program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that > employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! > It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level > building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is > reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but > the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or > through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street > like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification > from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even > interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every > day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service > job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the > Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want > their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse > that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how > do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? > They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, > yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax > break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to > hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government > pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive > off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the > corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the > quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe > it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of > proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I > would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make > change. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the > past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be > ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected > or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue > reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're > worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. > Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? > This > would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle > for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Ashley, > You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're > probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes > sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the > minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. > Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one > of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble > opinion. > Take it or leave it, > Kirt > > On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are > > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you > make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when > someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the > average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable > amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an > average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the > information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the > information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. > I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently > posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > > http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl > ed-E > mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of > employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average > wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states > have minimum wage laws that are higher > > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by > state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these > employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > exactly > > does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the > calculated > > average of these employees also includes the outrageously high > salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect > would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory > worker or the > > average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the > national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but > if > > what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > > of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually > impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > > make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 > employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less > than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is > actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say > what the average minimum wage for these workers > > would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > > could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay > workers with disabilities > $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > > by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is > so > > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would > post in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media > attention > > for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are > complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest > and > > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay > workers > > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > > pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized > by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with > the federal government, providing goods and services through > non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are > frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. > Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but > the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits > to create employment opportunities > > for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, > subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > > management of > > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled > individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output > justifying the minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are > incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > > most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of > output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the > wage to give them > > the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > > hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. > The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to > achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but > organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government > contracting should have to > > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with > disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > > now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > > the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights > organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is > reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a > law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > > lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are > completely correct. The boycott of Good > > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us > > to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it > cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their > workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost > realistically going to > > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? > I > > can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is > disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker > currently makes $1.50 an > > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee > is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > > extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees > of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > This would represent an annual cost increase > > of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > > pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > > shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor > unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is > changed is bogus and cynical. > As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > > business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > > the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the > government pays. > And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the > dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to > support the > > 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow > sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > > they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > > because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > everybody in the employment market, full stop. > > Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > a > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > ot > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > ail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > otma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif > %40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai l.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.p ccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kea.anderson%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 04:45:04 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:45:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired Message-ID: Hi all, Brandon-undoubtedly you've stumbled upon an issue that has been contentious in the blind community at times, because labels have meaning and words have power. The terms "blind" and "visually impaired" have many different connotations, some desirable and some not so much. I want to present my personal views and reactions to these two terms, and explain why I now use "blind" to describe any person who uses nonvisual techniques to observe and interact with their world. I was born with only light perception, so I am essentially totally blind (if people ask, I sometimes say I am "99% blind" and my tiny bit of usable vision is only functional in a few select situations). Because of this, I grew up referring to myself as blind and never gave it a second thought. However, I had some friends growing up who were in that grey area where they had enough vision to get by without blindness techniques but who still qualified for blindness services (TVI's etc.) My friends referred to themselves as visually impaired and I thought that label was totally harmless and legitimate as a way of differentiating between totally blind folks like me and folks who had usable vision. Over the past few years I have stopped using "visually impaired" for two main reasons. First, the term "visually impaired" includes the word "impaired" which literally means defective or inferior. The word blind, while it has some bad historical connotations, does not literally mean inferiority or defect. It simply means unable to see, but it can be interpreted in many different ways. I choose to use the word "blind" and to interpret it in a positive way rather than using a term that focuses attention on what is broken. My friends who have usable vision are not broken or "impaired" any more or less than I am; they are people who, like me, happen to observe and interact with their world, at least somewhat, in nonvisual ways. Given the chance, I would rather not think of myself as broken or defective either, which is why I continue to call myself blind. I know that in some sighted people's eyes (not all, but some) the word "blind" still means "broken" but I feel that these people would see me as broken even if I called myself visually impaired instead. Words have power, and I would rather create my own definition for the word "blind". Second, over the years I have talked with several people who have usable vision about their experiences with negotiating their identities. I have heard over and over again from people who found peace, resolution, and even joy when they began to refer to themselves as blind, use blindness techniques and become full members of the blind community. Before calling themselves blind, these folks (and some of you on this list have experienced this too, and can elaborate) often tried to pass as sighted, but became frustrated or depressed when this attempt to pass wasn't completely effective. Hiding blindness has its advantages, but when one's vision is simply not good enough to make it possible without sacrificing competence (i.e. running into things, falling, not being able to read, etc.) passing can become more of a burden than a privilege. Calling oneself blind and developing an identity as blind can be very liberating, as again, it pulls focus away from the broken vision and toward the effective nonvisual methods of observing and interacting. So I call my friends blind rather than visually impaired because I want to respect their blind identities and the peace and resolve that comes with them. Again, while I have not done a study on this (I might, sometime!) I don't think sighted people really understand the nuances between blind and visually impaired. Some sighted folks think of beggars, depression and darkness when you say blind; however, I'd bet they'd still think of those things if you used the term visually impaired, sight-impaired, sightless, optically challenged or any other term that really means "blind" in fancier language. And there are other sighted folks who have no mental associations, good or bad, with the word blind. These folks can learn from our example that "blind" is neither good nor bad, but simply means you observe and interact with your world using means other than vision. My sighted boyfriend, who had no experience with blindness before me, sometimes teases me by calling me "blindie" and that is not meant as an insult. In fact, he knows that I have several dear friends I jokingly refer to as "blindies" and so the word has mildly positive connotations for me, and for him. The issue of whether or not to tell an employer you are blind, visually impaired or whatever is a whole separate thing. But I would argue that if using a blindness technique like Braille, JAWS or a cane/dog would allow you to perform the job better, it's worth the risk to tell your employer you are blind and use these techniques on the job. It's much better than floundering around without blindness techniques and eventually getting fired for poor performance. Arielle From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 04:51:42 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:51:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <4FEC3E533D054ACAB2564FF1C8293EE8@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> <4fd80d49.447cb60a.6f50.378b@mx.google.com> <4FEC3E533D054ACAB2564FF1C8293EE8@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Brandon, I agree that it's better to disclose blindness later in the process if you can. But, I still think if I said to an employer, "I'm visually impaired" that statement would focus their attention too much on the "impaired" part, even if just implicitly. If I say "I'm blind" they may or may not interpret that in a negative way, but they're not being led to think about an impairment. Of course, what matters more than the word choice is the context in which you tell them. I usually try to couple a disclosure with a brief description of how I can do things, i.e. "I'm blind and I access the Internet with a screen reader" rather than saying "I'm blind, so I may have trouble accessing some of your software". Arielle On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > The topic is being hired by sighted people. The fact is, sighted employers > and sighted people in general think that saying "I'm blind" is repulsive and > > undesirable. Your aim when you go into interview for a job is to get the > job, so if that means pandering to make your blindness more acceptable on > the first introduction, I would do it. Often it's the difference between > getting the job or not. That first impression needs to deemphasize the > blindness and emphasize your qualifications and ability to do the job better > > than everyone else. > After you get the job you can go in with your glass eyes hanging in a bag > around your neck with a big shirt proclaiming in big huge letters (Both in > Braille and large print): I'm blind and I'm proud! > You can also advertise the Braille coins and anything else your heart > desires in order to feel the best you possibly can about yourself. But that > > interview is all about the employer and not about you. Don't make it about > you until the very end or until you get the job. > When I go into an audition I always try to ask right before I get off stage > > if the directors have any questions about my visual impairment, but that's > almost like an afterthought and not even really worth their consideration. > Before an audition if there is a cold-read I ask if I could please have the > > cold reads ahead of time, so I can put them into an accessible format > because I'm visually impaired. > I've said, I'm blind, can I please have the cold reads so I can read them > with my screen reader, but they don't give them to me. > Once you put that blindness statement in there, they get all scared and just > > ignore you. I've had it happen to me many times and it's much worse being > rejected just on the principal that you're blind than it is being rejected > after they have met you, seen you, heard you, talked to you and seen your > enthusiasm. > But totally go all out with your friends and coworkers about being blind, > but after you get the job! > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Karen Anderson > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:47 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hello Brandon and all, > > While I understand where you are coming from, I don't feel your argument > holds up. I am all for assimilating into a sighted world, but I don't think > calling myself "visually impaired," falls into that category. To me, > fitting > into a sighted world involves understanding social cues, and using my > alternative techniques to the best of my ability to accomplish the same > activities as my sighted peers. Assimilating into sighted culture means > knowing not to eat your mashed potatoes with your hands, and not sticking > your nose in your food while you're trying to see if you've cut a piece of > meat. > To me, "blind" is just a word, and "blindness" is just one of the > characteristics that makes me me. Furthermore, the more we shy away from > using that 5 letter word, the less we will be accepted into society. While > saying "visually impaired" is sometimes more accepted in today's culture, > it > serves little purpose other than to further the hierarchy of sight. I am no > better or worse off than someone who has some vision, or someone who is > fully sighted. We are all people, with our own strengths and weaknesses. > Buying into the argument that "visually impaired" and other such phrases > are > more socially acceptable also reinforces the negative stereotype that a > completely blind person is inherently less capable than someone who has > some > remaining vision. As a member of the NFB, I believe in standing up for my > rights, as well as the rights of other blind people, whether they have some > vision or not. I feel that if we want society to accept us, we first have > to > accept ourselves. > > Just my thoughts, > > Karen > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Brandon Keith Biggs > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:59 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hello Josh, > We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community > calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is > weird unfortunately. > I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling > something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who > you're selling to. > A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I > wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to a > strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm > trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." > It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to > assimilate > > into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. > I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest mountain > tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy > up > > our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're > infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off > onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability > imaginable. > I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this > time. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. > I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" > Sight, and vision are two different things. > Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. > Vision, is mental/spiritual. > The NFB has lots of vision! > If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. > We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? >> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're >> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should >> you tell them you're blind? >> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually >> impaired, but I think that's against the law. >> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell >> yourself >> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually >> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad >> vision, >> >> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually >> impaired, and it's not TOB). >> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too >> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. >> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the >> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be >> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible >> products >> >> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. >> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made >> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is >> an >> >> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring >> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a >> disability. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wasif, Zunaira >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only >> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I >> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >> change. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >> This >> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Ashley, >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >> opinion. >> Take it or leave it, >> Kirt >> >> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Elizabeth, >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >> >> paid >> >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >> pay. I >> >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >> information that was cited in the article itself. >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >> I am >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >> ed-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >> have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >> state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >> exactly >> >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >> calculated >> >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >> worker or the >> >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >> if >> >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >> of paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >> what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >> workers with disabilities >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >> >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >> so >> >> high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >> post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >> the federal government, providing goods and services through >> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >> to create employment opportunities >> >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >> management of >> >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >> wage to give them >> >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >> contracting should have to >> >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >> completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >> >> to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >> realistically going to >> >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >> I >> >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >> currently makes $1.50 an >> >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >> This would represent an annual cost increase >> >> of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >> changed is bogus and cynical. >> As I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >> government pays. >> And, as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >> support the >> >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >> a >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >> ot >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 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info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kea.anderson%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 13 04:52:06 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 23:52:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great post, as always! Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Brandon-undoubtedly you've stumbled upon an issue that has been > contentious in the blind community at times, because labels have > meaning and words have power. The terms "blind" and "visually > impaired" have many different connotations, some desirable and some > not so much. I want to present my personal views and reactions to > these two terms, and explain why I now use "blind" to describe any > person who uses nonvisual techniques to observe and interact with > their world. > I was born with only light perception, so I am essentially totally > blind (if people ask, I sometimes say I am "99% blind" and my tiny bit > of usable vision is only functional in a few select situations). > Because of this, I grew up referring to myself as blind and never gave > it a second thought. However, I had some friends growing up who were > in that grey area where they had enough vision to get by without > blindness techniques but who still qualified for blindness services > (TVI's etc.) My friends referred to themselves as visually impaired > and I thought that label was totally harmless and legitimate as a way > of differentiating between totally blind folks like me and folks who > had usable vision. > Over the past few years I have stopped using "visually impaired" for > two main reasons. First, the term "visually impaired" includes the > word "impaired" which literally means defective or inferior. The word > blind, while it has some bad historical connotations, does not > literally mean inferiority or defect. It simply means unable to see, > but it can be interpreted in many different ways. I choose to use the > word "blind" and to interpret it in a positive way rather than using a > term that focuses attention on what is broken. My friends who have > usable vision are not broken or "impaired" any more or less than I am; > they are people who, like me, happen to observe and interact with > their world, at least somewhat, in nonvisual ways. Given the chance, I > would rather not think of myself as broken or defective either, which > is why I continue to call myself blind. I know that in some sighted > people's eyes (not all, but some) the word "blind" still means > "broken" but I feel that these people would see me as broken even if I > called myself visually impaired instead. Words have power, and I would > rather create my own definition for the word "blind". > Second, over the years I have talked with several people who have > usable vision about their experiences with negotiating their > identities. I have heard over and over again from people who found > peace, resolution, and even joy when they began to refer to themselves > as blind, use blindness techniques and become full members of the > blind community. Before calling themselves blind, these folks (and > some of you on this list have experienced this too, and can elaborate) > often tried to pass as sighted, but became frustrated or depressed > when this attempt to pass wasn't completely effective. Hiding > blindness has its advantages, but when one's vision is simply not good > enough to make it possible without sacrificing competence (i.e. > running into things, falling, not being able to read, etc.) passing > can become more of a burden than a privilege. Calling oneself blind > and developing an identity as blind can be very liberating, as again, > it pulls focus away from the broken vision and toward the effective > nonvisual methods of observing and interacting. So I call my friends > blind rather than visually impaired because I want to respect their > blind identities and the peace and resolve that comes with them. > Again, while I have not done a study on this (I might, sometime!) I > don't think sighted people really understand the nuances between blind > and visually impaired. Some sighted folks think of beggars, depression > and darkness when you say blind; however, I'd bet they'd still think > of those things if you used the term visually impaired, > sight-impaired, sightless, optically challenged or any other term that > really means "blind" in fancier language. And there are other sighted > folks who have no mental associations, good or bad, with the word > blind. These folks can learn from our example that "blind" is neither > good nor bad, but simply means you observe and interact with your > world using means other than vision. My sighted boyfriend, who had no > experience with blindness before me, sometimes teases me by calling me > "blindie" and that is not meant as an insult. In fact, he knows that I > have several dear friends I jokingly refer to as "blindies" and so the > word has mildly positive connotations for me, and for him. > The issue of whether or not to tell an employer you are blind, > visually impaired or whatever is a whole separate thing. But I would > argue that if using a blindness technique like Braille, JAWS or a > cane/dog would allow you to perform the job better, it's worth the > risk to tell your employer you are blind and use these techniques on > the job. It's much better than floundering around without blindness > techniques and eventually getting fired for poor performance. > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 05:16:44 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:16:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net><39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2><4fd80d49.447cb60a.6f50.378b@mx.google.com><4FEC3E533D054ACAB2564FF1C8293EE8@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <612990E73EDA4B96B3E82B098C0BC20C@BrandonsLaptop2> Yes exactly, saying positive things like I can do things is always the best. I think it really is between Blind and Visually Impaired though. I say I'm blind, but if you ask a sighted person to write an article on your sight mutation they will probably use Visually impaired. (See VI teacher again). There is also the auditory part of saying I'm visually impaired vs I'm blind. Visually impaired flows through the conversation and I don't think people even notice the impaired part. They just know you have some problem with your vision. If you say I'm blind, it's like BAM! I'm Blind with a big old B! Which is fantastic for every day use, but the one word descriptions often are more in your face than the 2 word terms. One can't make definitions for everyone else, only for yourself. It's the same thing as when someone says they are gay, many people say homosexual or bisexual, depending on the circumstance. Or saying black instead of African American. Because thanks to conditioning, words initiate certain responses within people. One can take it how they wish, but I think that the generation of those who know of daredevil and Raymond Carver happen to be the ones doing the hiring and those pieces of literature put the word "Blind" in a bad context. It's up to us to change it, but it's not really the best idea to try to change people's opinion when you want them to hire you for a job in my opinion. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Brandon, I agree that it's better to disclose blindness later in the process if you can. But, I still think if I said to an employer, "I'm visually impaired" that statement would focus their attention too much on the "impaired" part, even if just implicitly. If I say "I'm blind" they may or may not interpret that in a negative way, but they're not being led to think about an impairment. Of course, what matters more than the word choice is the context in which you tell them. I usually try to couple a disclosure with a brief description of how I can do things, i.e. "I'm blind and I access the Internet with a screen reader" rather than saying "I'm blind, so I may have trouble accessing some of your software". Arielle On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > The topic is being hired by sighted people. The fact is, sighted employers > and sighted people in general think that saying "I'm blind" is repulsive > and > > undesirable. Your aim when you go into interview for a job is to get the > job, so if that means pandering to make your blindness more acceptable on > the first introduction, I would do it. Often it's the difference between > getting the job or not. That first impression needs to deemphasize the > blindness and emphasize your qualifications and ability to do the job > better > > than everyone else. > After you get the job you can go in with your glass eyes hanging in a bag > around your neck with a big shirt proclaiming in big huge letters (Both in > Braille and large print): I'm blind and I'm proud! > You can also advertise the Braille coins and anything else your heart > desires in order to feel the best you possibly can about yourself. But > that > > interview is all about the employer and not about you. Don't make it about > you until the very end or until you get the job. > When I go into an audition I always try to ask right before I get off > stage > > if the directors have any questions about my visual impairment, but that's > almost like an afterthought and not even really worth their consideration. > Before an audition if there is a cold-read I ask if I could please have > the > > cold reads ahead of time, so I can put them into an accessible format > because I'm visually impaired. > I've said, I'm blind, can I please have the cold reads so I can read them > with my screen reader, but they don't give them to me. > Once you put that blindness statement in there, they get all scared and > just > > ignore you. I've had it happen to me many times and it's much worse being > rejected just on the principal that you're blind than it is being rejected > after they have met you, seen you, heard you, talked to you and seen your > enthusiasm. > But totally go all out with your friends and coworkers about being blind, > but after you get the job! > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Karen Anderson > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:47 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hello Brandon and all, > > While I understand where you are coming from, I don't feel your argument > holds up. I am all for assimilating into a sighted world, but I don't > think > calling myself "visually impaired," falls into that category. To me, > fitting > into a sighted world involves understanding social cues, and using my > alternative techniques to the best of my ability to accomplish the same > activities as my sighted peers. Assimilating into sighted culture means > knowing not to eat your mashed potatoes with your hands, and not sticking > your nose in your food while you're trying to see if you've cut a piece of > meat. > To me, "blind" is just a word, and "blindness" is just one of the > characteristics that makes me me. Furthermore, the more we shy away from > using that 5 letter word, the less we will be accepted into society. While > saying "visually impaired" is sometimes more accepted in today's culture, > it > serves little purpose other than to further the hierarchy of sight. I am > no > better or worse off than someone who has some vision, or someone who is > fully sighted. We are all people, with our own strengths and weaknesses. > Buying into the argument that "visually impaired" and other such phrases > are > more socially acceptable also reinforces the negative stereotype that a > completely blind person is inherently less capable than someone who has > some > remaining vision. As a member of the NFB, I believe in standing up for my > rights, as well as the rights of other blind people, whether they have > some > vision or not. I feel that if we want society to accept us, we first have > to > accept ourselves. > > Just my thoughts, > > Karen > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Brandon Keith Biggs > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:59 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hello Josh, > We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community > calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is > weird unfortunately. > I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling > something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who > you're selling to. > A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I > wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to > a > strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm > trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." > It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to > assimilate > > into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. > I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest > mountain > tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy > up > > our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're > infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off > onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability > imaginable. > I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this > time. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. > I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" > Sight, and vision are two different things. > Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. > Vision, is mental/spiritual. > The NFB has lots of vision! > If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. > We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? >> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're >> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should >> you tell them you're blind? >> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually >> impaired, but I think that's against the law. >> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell >> yourself >> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually >> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad >> vision, >> >> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually >> impaired, and it's not TOB). >> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too >> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. >> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the >> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be >> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible >> products >> >> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. >> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made >> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is >> an >> >> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring >> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a >> disability. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wasif, Zunaira >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only >> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I >> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >> change. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >> This >> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Ashley, >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >> opinion. >> Take it or leave it, >> Kirt >> >> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Elizabeth, >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >> >> paid >> >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >> pay. I >> >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >> information that was cited in the article itself. >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >> I am >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >> ed-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >> have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >> state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >> exactly >> >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >> calculated >> >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >> worker or the >> >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >> if >> >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >> of paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >> what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >> workers with disabilities >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >> >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >> so >> >> high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >> post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >> the federal government, providing goods and services through >> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >> to create employment opportunities >> >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >> management of >> >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >> wage to give them >> >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >> contracting should have to >> >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >> completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >> >> to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >> realistically going to >> >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >> I >> >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >> currently makes $1.50 an >> >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >> This would represent an annual cost increase >> >> of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >> changed is bogus and cynical. >> As I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >> government pays. >> And, as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >> support the >> >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >> a >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >> ot >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 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info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kea.anderson%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Wed Jun 13 09:20:01 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 04:20:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: NVDA screen reader News: NVDA 2012.2.1 released Message-ID: > >NVDA 2012.2.1 has just been released. This release addresses several >potential security issues (by upgrading Python to 2.7.3). Upgrading >is recommended. > >To read more or manually download, please visit: >http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDA2012.2.1Released > > >Please consider donating to NV Access to support NVDA's continued development: >http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate From dandrews at visi.com Wed Jun 13 10:59:36 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 05:59:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A99@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fld bs.net> References: <4fd770e8.a2adec0a.7467.fffffa6b@mx.google.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A99@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. Dave At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Sophie Trist >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >the only >way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >option I >would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >change. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Sophie Trist >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >This >would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >Ashley, > You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >opinion. > Take it or leave it, >Kirt > >On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are > > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make >reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > >http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >ed-E > mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >have minimum wage laws that are higher > > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >exactly > > does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >calculated > > average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries >of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the > > average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >if > > what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > > of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > > make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >what the average minimum wage for these workers > > would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > > could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >workers with disabilities > $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > > by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >so > > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >post in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention > > for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and > > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers > > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > > pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >costs that exceed their fair market value. > Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >to create employment opportunities > > for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > > management of > > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >justifying the minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > > most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >wage to give them > > the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > > hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >contracting should have to > > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > > now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > > the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > > lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are completely >correct. The boycott of Good > > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us > > to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >realistically going to > > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >I > > can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >currently makes $1.50 an > > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > > extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > This would represent an annual cost increase > > of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > > pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > > shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >changed is bogus and cynical. > As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > > business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > > the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >government pays. > And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >support the > > 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > > they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > > because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >everybody in the employment market, full stop. > > Sean From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 11:16:01 2012 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 08:16:01 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A9DDE8C474B42C3B08A4C4B00F1540F@userPC> Ariel I agree with you. I like you have been blind from birth and have a little light perception that I can't do much with at all. I am more comfortable with calling my self blind because like you that's all I have known. I also have some friends who consider themselves visually impaired but I also call all of my friends blind. I really don't like it when people call my blindness a visual impairment because I feel like that gives a person the idea that I have some usable vision when that is not the case. As for getting a job I am a massage therapist at a local salon in New Jersey. I got the job because I explained that I was blind but I went farther and explained that I use transportation to get to and from work. As well as how I keep notes on the client's I see I am on call so they let me know when a client wants to come in for a massage. This is helpful because finding transportation is difficult at times but after I explained how I get to work and that I was still really interested in working for him as a massage therapist I was hyered! I am proud to say that the client's my co-workers and managers really like me and support me every step of the way. Sometimes I think it is a matter of the employer really needing to fill a spot and if they can put your blindness aside so you can show them what your abilities are to me they would I think see you as just another blind person doing what everyone else does so I think telling your employer about your blindness is better. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 1:45 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired Hi all, Brandon-undoubtedly you've stumbled upon an issue that has been contentious in the blind community at times, because labels have meaning and words have power. The terms "blind" and "visually impaired" have many different connotations, some desirable and some not so much. I want to present my personal views and reactions to these two terms, and explain why I now use "blind" to describe any person who uses nonvisual techniques to observe and interact with their world. I was born with only light perception, so I am essentially totally blind (if people ask, I sometimes say I am "99% blind" and my tiny bit of usable vision is only functional in a few select situations). Because of this, I grew up referring to myself as blind and never gave it a second thought. However, I had some friends growing up who were in that grey area where they had enough vision to get by without blindness techniques but who still qualified for blindness services (TVI's etc.) My friends referred to themselves as visually impaired and I thought that label was totally harmless and legitimate as a way of differentiating between totally blind folks like me and folks who had usable vision. Over the past few years I have stopped using "visually impaired" for two main reasons. First, the term "visually impaired" includes the word "impaired" which literally means defective or inferior. The word blind, while it has some bad historical connotations, does not literally mean inferiority or defect. It simply means unable to see, but it can be interpreted in many different ways. I choose to use the word "blind" and to interpret it in a positive way rather than using a term that focuses attention on what is broken. My friends who have usable vision are not broken or "impaired" any more or less than I am; they are people who, like me, happen to observe and interact with their world, at least somewhat, in nonvisual ways. Given the chance, I would rather not think of myself as broken or defective either, which is why I continue to call myself blind. I know that in some sighted people's eyes (not all, but some) the word "blind" still means "broken" but I feel that these people would see me as broken even if I called myself visually impaired instead. Words have power, and I would rather create my own definition for the word "blind". Second, over the years I have talked with several people who have usable vision about their experiences with negotiating their identities. I have heard over and over again from people who found peace, resolution, and even joy when they began to refer to themselves as blind, use blindness techniques and become full members of the blind community. Before calling themselves blind, these folks (and some of you on this list have experienced this too, and can elaborate) often tried to pass as sighted, but became frustrated or depressed when this attempt to pass wasn't completely effective. Hiding blindness has its advantages, but when one's vision is simply not good enough to make it possible without sacrificing competence (i.e. running into things, falling, not being able to read, etc.) passing can become more of a burden than a privilege. Calling oneself blind and developing an identity as blind can be very liberating, as again, it pulls focus away from the broken vision and toward the effective nonvisual methods of observing and interacting. So I call my friends blind rather than visually impaired because I want to respect their blind identities and the peace and resolve that comes with them. Again, while I have not done a study on this (I might, sometime!) I don't think sighted people really understand the nuances between blind and visually impaired. Some sighted folks think of beggars, depression and darkness when you say blind; however, I'd bet they'd still think of those things if you used the term visually impaired, sight-impaired, sightless, optically challenged or any other term that really means "blind" in fancier language. And there are other sighted folks who have no mental associations, good or bad, with the word blind. These folks can learn from our example that "blind" is neither good nor bad, but simply means you observe and interact with your world using means other than vision. My sighted boyfriend, who had no experience with blindness before me, sometimes teases me by calling me "blindie" and that is not meant as an insult. In fact, he knows that I have several dear friends I jokingly refer to as "blindies" and so the word has mildly positive connotations for me, and for him. The issue of whether or not to tell an employer you are blind, visually impaired or whatever is a whole separate thing. But I would argue that if using a blindness technique like Braille, JAWS or a cane/dog would allow you to perform the job better, it's worth the risk to tell your employer you are blind and use these techniques on the job. It's much better than floundering around without blindness techniques and eventually getting fired for poor performance. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Wed Jun 13 13:14:23 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:14:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4fd770e8.a2adec0a.7467.fffffa6b@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A99@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA0@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple conversion was just a thought. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. Dave At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites violate >the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Sophie Trist >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe >we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >the only >way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the >ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients >every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is >running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >even interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen >every day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working >with the Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because >they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the >Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job. My >question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this >any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >option I >would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >change. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Sophie Trist >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could >argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because >we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >This >would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >Ashley, > You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >opinion. > Take it or leave it, >Kirt > >On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >are > > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article >recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > >http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >ed-E > mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >have minimum wage laws that are higher > > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >exactly > > does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >calculated > > average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >worker or the > > average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, >but if > > what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > > of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > > make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >what the average minimum wage for these workers > > would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > > could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >workers with disabilities > $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > > by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >is so > > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >post in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media > attention > > for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest > and > > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay > workers > > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > > pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >the federal government, providing goods and services through >non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. > Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >to create employment opportunities > > for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > > management of > > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >justifying the minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > > most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >wage to give them > > the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > > hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >contracting should have to > > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > > now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > > the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that >it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > > lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >completely correct. The boycott of Good > > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of > us > > to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >realistically going to > > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >I > > can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >currently makes $1.50 an > > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > > extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > This would represent an annual cost increase > > of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > > pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > > shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >changed is bogus and cynical. > As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > > business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > > the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >government pays. > And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >support the > > 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > > they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > > because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >everybody in the employment market, full stop. > > Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org From cassonw at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 14:22:58 2012 From: cassonw at gmail.com (Bill) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 08:22:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Message-ID: I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider viriety of everyday and specialty programs. Bill On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: > It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web > cites a long with telecommunications and other such services.   There is > a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may > apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility?    The Apple > conversion was just a thought. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of David Andrews > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Please get your information straight.  The ADA does not currently cover > web sites.  It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. > > Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be > applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come > close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make > employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. > > Dave > > At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>employers will be using Apple products and  many jobs will become >>accessible.  If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion.  I have two >>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>with the employer's technology.  This is a form of discrimination and >>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites violate > >>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. > >>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were > enforced. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >>not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >>schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe >>we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible > programs? >>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >> >>  ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles > >>such as this one.  I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>that it helped African Americans enter the work place.   Maybe >>the only >>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>reverse discrimination.  The legislation is there in the form of the >>ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented.  I work with clients >>every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is > >>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text.  The >>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is > discriminatory! >>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>reverse discrimination.  The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but > >>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>through any program.  They should be able to apply off of the street >>like anyone else.  A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >>even interview them.  I'm working in this field and I see that happen >>every day.  If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >>service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working >>with the Lighthouse?"  The reason that companies do this is because >>they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the >>Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job.  My >>question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee > has the skills? >>They want an incentive to hire disabled people.  The attitude is "oh, >>yeh?  You want me to hire a blind person?  You better give me a tax >>break."  In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh?  You better pay me >>to hire that blind person."  This is the current situation.  Our >>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>Goodwill thrive off of this.  In job development exercises we are >>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client.  How is this > >>any better than the quota system?  I'm not saying the quota system is >>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an > effective way of >>proving that "we are worth something."    If there is a better >>option I >>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>change. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could >>argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because > >>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain > quota. >>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >>  ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>This >>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Ashley, >>   You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>you're probably right.  But there should be, and that's why this >>boycott makes sense to me.  If you have some branches paying any >>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy > to set that straight. >>Unfortunate, but true.  I really think it is that simple...this is one >>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble > >>opinion. >>   Take it or leave it, >>Kirt >> >>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>  Elizabeth, >>  Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>are >> >>  paid >> >>  above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > >>pay. I >> >>  don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >>  Ashley >> >>  -----Original Message----- >>  From: Elizabeth >>  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Hi Greg, >> >>  Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >>  still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >>  it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable > >>amount more than what most people are making to achieve  such an >>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the > >>information you cited from the article, but rather  questioning the >>information that was cited in the article itself. >>  There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>I am >>  sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >>  Warm regards, >>  Elizabeth >> >>  -------------------------------------------------- >>  From: "Greg Aikens" >  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>  >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Hi Elizabeth, >>  I should have included my sources.  The first was the article >>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>ed-E >>  mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>employees impacted and their average wage.  The reason that an average >>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because  many states > >>have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >>  than the federal minimum wage.  For  a quick list of minimum wage by >>state, go to: >>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >>  Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >>  -Greg >> >>  On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >>  Hi Gregg, >> >>  I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then  how > >>exactly >> >>  does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>calculated >> >>  average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory > >>worker or the >> >>  average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, >>but if >> >>  what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >>  of paying people subminimum wage. >> >>  Warm regards, >>  Elizabeth >> >> >>  -------------------------------------------------- >>  From: "Greg Aikens" >  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>  >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >>  make these changes.  According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 > >>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled  workers less >>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is  $7.47, which is >>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of  $7.25.  I can't say >>what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >>  would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >>  could be higher than $8.50.  So they would have to on average pay >>workers with disabilities >>  $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year.  Multiply that >> >>  by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >>  I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>is so >> >>  high. >> >>  Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>post in case others are interested too. >> >>  -Greg >>  On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >>  Good afternoon, >> >>  One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >>  for >>  the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >>  We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >>  most >>  visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >>  with >>  disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >>  pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized > >>by people in and out of your field. That's just the  way it goes. >> >>  Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>  Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>to create employment opportunities >> >>  for >>  blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >>  management of >> >>  these >>  non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce  output >>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >>  I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >>  most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the > >>wage to give them >> >>  the >>  dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >>  I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >>  hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and  fails to >>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum  wage apply, but >>organizations wishing to receive preferential  treatment in government >>contracting should have to >> >>  fill >>  a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >>  now, >>  there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >>  While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >>  the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying  that > >>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of  America, >>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >>  lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >>  Will >>  is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >> us >> >>  to >>  keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all  their >>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in  cost >>realistically going to >> >>  lead >>  to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>I >> >>  can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>currently makes $1.50 an >> >>  hour. >>  Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee > >>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >>  extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>  This would represent an annual cost increase >> >>  of >>  $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >>  pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >>  shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>changed is bogus and cynical. >>  As I >>  said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >>  business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >>  the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>government pays. >>  And, as >>  I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>support the >> >>  70, >>  80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >>  they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>  It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >>  because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply  to > >>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >>  Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com -- Bill Casson University of New Mexico M.S. Computer Science Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. (505) 695-1374 cassonw at gmail.com From pgradioman at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 14:33:37 2012 From: pgradioman at hotmail.com (Preston Gaylor) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:33:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired In-Reply-To: <5A9DDE8C474B42C3B08A4C4B00F1540F@userPC> References: , <5A9DDE8C474B42C3B08A4C4B00F1540F@userPC> Message-ID: Hi all, I would like to share with you how I was born blind and how I call some of my friends blind. I was blind since birth, just like Arielle. A lot of my sighted friends eversince I started school, were wondering how I get around and do the same thinggs as they do. I don't mind talking about my blindness to other people because it helps them understand more about my disability. I call some of my friends blind because we share with each other on what blindness means to us and we also educate ourselves on what we can do to make other people aware of blindness. I am considering going to a traing center after high school to get all the skills I need to live on my own and for college. I want to go into radio, or if that doesn't work out for me, I wanat to also be a computer IT. Oh, and I forgot to metion earlier that i am legallily blind, have ROP and can see some light, some color, and shadows. Have a good day all! Preston Gaylor > From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 08:16:01 -0300 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired > > Ariel I agree with you. > I like you have been blind from birth and have a little light perception > that I can't do much with at all. > I am more comfortable with calling my self blind because like you that's all > I have known. > I also have some friends who consider themselves visually impaired but I > also call all of my friends blind. > I really don't like it when people call my blindness a visual impairment > because I feel like that gives a person the idea that I have some usable > vision when that is not the case. > As for getting a job I am a massage therapist at a local salon in New > Jersey. > I got the job because I explained that I was blind but I went farther and > explained that I use transportation to get to and from work. As well as how > I keep notes on the client's I see > I am on call so they let me know when a client wants to come in for a > massage. This is helpful because finding transportation is difficult at > times but after I explained how I get to work and that I was still really > interested in working for him as a massage therapist I was hyered! > I am proud to say that the client's my co-workers and managers really like > me and support me every step of the way. > Sometimes I think it is a matter of the employer really needing to fill a > spot and if they can put your blindness aside so you can show them what your > abilities are to me they would I think see you as just another blind person > doing what everyone else does so I think telling your employer about your > blindness is better. > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Arielle Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 1:45 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired > > Hi all, > Brandon-undoubtedly you've stumbled upon an issue that has been > contentious in the blind community at times, because labels have > meaning and words have power. The terms "blind" and "visually > impaired" have many different connotations, some desirable and some > not so much. I want to present my personal views and reactions to > these two terms, and explain why I now use "blind" to describe any > person who uses nonvisual techniques to observe and interact with > their world. > I was born with only light perception, so I am essentially totally > blind (if people ask, I sometimes say I am "99% blind" and my tiny bit > of usable vision is only functional in a few select situations). > Because of this, I grew up referring to myself as blind and never gave > it a second thought. However, I had some friends growing up who were > in that grey area where they had enough vision to get by without > blindness techniques but who still qualified for blindness services > (TVI's etc.) My friends referred to themselves as visually impaired > and I thought that label was totally harmless and legitimate as a way > of differentiating between totally blind folks like me and folks who > had usable vision. > Over the past few years I have stopped using "visually impaired" for > two main reasons. First, the term "visually impaired" includes the > word "impaired" which literally means defective or inferior. The word > blind, while it has some bad historical connotations, does not > literally mean inferiority or defect. It simply means unable to see, > but it can be interpreted in many different ways. I choose to use the > word "blind" and to interpret it in a positive way rather than using a > term that focuses attention on what is broken. My friends who have > usable vision are not broken or "impaired" any more or less than I am; > they are people who, like me, happen to observe and interact with > their world, at least somewhat, in nonvisual ways. Given the chance, I > would rather not think of myself as broken or defective either, which > is why I continue to call myself blind. I know that in some sighted > people's eyes (not all, but some) the word "blind" still means > "broken" but I feel that these people would see me as broken even if I > called myself visually impaired instead. Words have power, and I would > rather create my own definition for the word "blind". > Second, over the years I have talked with several people who have > usable vision about their experiences with negotiating their > identities. I have heard over and over again from people who found > peace, resolution, and even joy when they began to refer to themselves > as blind, use blindness techniques and become full members of the > blind community. Before calling themselves blind, these folks (and > some of you on this list have experienced this too, and can elaborate) > often tried to pass as sighted, but became frustrated or depressed > when this attempt to pass wasn't completely effective. Hiding > blindness has its advantages, but when one's vision is simply not good > enough to make it possible without sacrificing competence (i.e. > running into things, falling, not being able to read, etc.) passing > can become more of a burden than a privilege. Calling oneself blind > and developing an identity as blind can be very liberating, as again, > it pulls focus away from the broken vision and toward the effective > nonvisual methods of observing and interacting. So I call my friends > blind rather than visually impaired because I want to respect their > blind identities and the peace and resolve that comes with them. > Again, while I have not done a study on this (I might, sometime!) I > don't think sighted people really understand the nuances between blind > and visually impaired. Some sighted folks think of beggars, depression > and darkness when you say blind; however, I'd bet they'd still think > of those things if you used the term visually impaired, > sight-impaired, sightless, optically challenged or any other term that > really means "blind" in fancier language. And there are other sighted > folks who have no mental associations, good or bad, with the word > blind. These folks can learn from our example that "blind" is neither > good nor bad, but simply means you observe and interact with your > world using means other than vision. My sighted boyfriend, who had no > experience with blindness before me, sometimes teases me by calling me > "blindie" and that is not meant as an insult. In fact, he knows that I > have several dear friends I jokingly refer to as "blindies" and so the > word has mildly positive connotations for me, and for him. > The issue of whether or not to tell an employer you are blind, > visually impaired or whatever is a whole separate thing. But I would > argue that if using a blindness technique like Braille, JAWS or a > cane/dog would allow you to perform the job better, it's worth the > risk to tell your employer you are blind and use these techniques on > the job. It's much better than floundering around without blindness > techniques and eventually getting fired for poor performance. > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40hotmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 14:39:01 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:39:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Message-ID: <4fd8a625.c24bec0a.0c9f.fffff610@mx.google.com> What, do they think a bunch of blind zombies are gonna destroy the world? LOL, but anyway, Brandon, I see your point sadly. I really don't like having to suck up to ignorance and prejudice, but it's the only way for now. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" wrote: Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should you tell them you're blind? Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually impaired, but I think that's against the law. I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell yourself in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad vision, not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually impaired, and it's not TOB). If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible products used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is an obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a disability. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make change. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: Elizabeth, Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are paid above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they pay. I don't think there is a set corporate policy. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi Greg, Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the information that was cited in the article itself. There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. I am sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Greg Aikens" References: Message-ID: <000f01cd4974$f0c74e80$d255eb80$@gmail.com> Hi Bill, I don't have much experience with Macs, but I wouldn't describe VoiceOver on iOS devices, s like the iPhone or iPod Touch as "poor." In fact, I think it's a very good screen reader. Just my thoughts, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider viriety of everyday and specialty programs. Bill On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: > It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web > cites a long with telecommunications and other such services.   There > is a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may > apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility?    The Apple > conversion was just a thought. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of David Andrews > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Please get your information straight.  The ADA does not currently > cover web sites.  It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. > > Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be > applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come > close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make > employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. > > Dave > > At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>employers will be using Apple products and  many jobs will become >>accessible.  If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion.  I have two >>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>with the employer's technology.  This is a form of discrimination and >>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>violate > >>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. > >>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>were > enforced. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >>not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >>schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe >>we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible > programs? >>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >> >>  ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>hurdles > >>such as this one.  I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I >>know that it helped African Americans enter the work place.   Maybe >>the only way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue >>is through reverse discrimination.  The legislation is there in the >>form of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented.  I work with >>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>system is > >>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text.  The >>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is > discriminatory! >>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>reverse discrimination.  The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>but > >>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>through any program.  They should be able to apply off of the street >>like anyone else.  A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >>even interview them.  I'm working in this field and I see that happen >>every day.  If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >>service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working >>with the Lighthouse?"  The reason that companies do this is because >>they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the >>Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job.  My >>question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee > has the skills? >>They want an incentive to hire disabled people.  The attitude is "oh, >>yeh?  You want me to hire a blind person?  You better give me a tax >>break."  In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh?  You better pay me >>to hire that blind person."  This is the current situation.  Our >>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>Goodwill thrive off of this.  In job development exercises we are >>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client.  How is >>this > >>any better than the quota system?  I'm not saying the quota system is >>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>an > effective way of >>proving that "we are worth something."    If there is a better option >>I would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>change. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could >>argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>because > >>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain > quota. >>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >>  ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>This >>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Ashley, >>   You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>you're probably right.  But there should be, and that's why this >>boycott makes sense to me.  If you have some branches paying any >>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy > to set that straight. >>Unfortunate, but true.  I really think it is that simple...this is one >>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>humble > >>opinion. >>   Take it or leave it, >>Kirt >> >>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>  Elizabeth, >>  Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>are >> >>  paid >> >>  above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >> they > >>pay. I >> >>  don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >>  Ashley >> >>  -----Original Message----- >>  From: Elizabeth >>  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Hi Greg, >> >>  Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >>  still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >>  it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>considerable > >>amount more than what most people are making to achieve  such an >>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>the > >>information you cited from the article, but rather  questioning the >>information that was cited in the article itself. >>  There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>I am >>  sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >>  Warm regards, >>  Elizabeth >> >>  -------------------------------------------------- >>  From: "Greg Aikens" >  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>  >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Hi Elizabeth, >>  I should have included my sources.  The first was the article >>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>ed-E >>  mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>employees impacted and their average wage.  The reason that an average >>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because  many >>states > >>have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >>  than the federal minimum wage.  For  a quick list of minimum wage by >>state, go to: >>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >>  Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >>  -Greg >> >>  On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >>  Hi Gregg, >> >>  I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then   >>how > >>exactly >> >>  does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>calculated >> >>  average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>factory > >>worker or the >> >>  average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, >>but if >> >>  what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >>  of paying people subminimum wage. >> >>  Warm regards, >>  Elizabeth >> >> >>  -------------------------------------------------- >>  From: "Greg Aikens" >  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>  >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>actually >> >>  make these changes.  According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >> 7300 > >>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled  workers less >>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is  $7.47, which is >>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of  $7.25.  I can't say >>what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >>  would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >>  could be higher than $8.50.  So they would have to on average pay >>workers with disabilities >>  $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year.  Multiply that >> >>  by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >>  I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>is so >> >>  high. >> >>  Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>post in case others are interested too. >> >>  -Greg >>  On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >>  Good afternoon, >> >>  One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >>  for >>  the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >>  We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >>  most >>  visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >>  with >>  disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >>  pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >> scrutinized > >>by people in and out of your field. That's just the  way it goes. >> >>  Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>  Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>to create employment opportunities >> >>  for >>  blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >>  management of >> >>  these >>  non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce  output >>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >>  I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >>  most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>the > >>wage to give them >> >>  the >>  dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >>  I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >>  hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and  fails to >>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum  wage apply, but >>organizations wishing to receive preferential  treatment in government >>contracting should have to >> >>  fill >>  a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >>  now, >>  there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >>  While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >>  the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying   >>that > >>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of  America, >>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >>  lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >>  Will >>  is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >> us >> >>  to >>  keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all  their >>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in  cost >>realistically going to >> >>  lead >>  to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>I >> >>  can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>currently makes $1.50 an >> >>  hour. >>  Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >> employee > >>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >>  extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>  This would represent an annual cost increase >> >>  of >>  $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >>  pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >>  shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>changed is bogus and cynical. >>  As I >>  said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >>  business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >>  the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>government pays. >>  And, as >>  I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>support the >> >>  70, >>  80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >>  they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>  It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >>  because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply   >> to > >>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >>  Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.co > m -- Bill Casson University of New Mexico M.S. Computer Science Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. (505) 695-1374 cassonw at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 15:02:21 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:02:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired Message-ID: <4fd8ab9c.8a25ec0a.1098.fffff709@mx.google.com> Arielle, you make some very good points that I agree with. I have met someone who fits the description. I was on a school trip last summer, and my group merged with a group from Tenessee. In this group, there was a blind guy who still had a good bit of division left. When we were introduced, I made some reference to him being blind. He almost bit my head off and told me that he was, in fact, visually impaired. This guy did not use a cane or any nonvisual techniques I noticed. I also noticed that his parents, who were also on the trip, pandered to him and did not encourage him to learn any independence skills. In my opinion, there are the kids we need to reach out to. Best, Sophie ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman References: <000f01cd4974$f0c74e80$d255eb80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA1@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Would you say that Apple has a friendlier philosophy in regards to accessibility? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:58 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Hi Bill, I don't have much experience with Macs, but I wouldn't describe VoiceOver on iOS devices, s like the iPhone or iPod Touch as "poor." In fact, I think it's a very good screen reader. Just my thoughts, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider viriety of everyday and specialty programs. Bill On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: > It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web > cites a long with telecommunications and other such services.   There > is a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may > apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility?    The Apple > conversion was just a thought. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of David Andrews > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Please get your information straight.  The ADA does not currently > cover web sites.  It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. > > Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be > applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come > close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make > employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. > > Dave > > At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>employers will be using Apple products and  many jobs will become >>accessible.  If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion.  I have two >>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>with the employer's technology.  This is a form of discrimination and >>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>violate > >>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. > >>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>were > enforced. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >>not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >>schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe >>we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible > programs? >>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >> >>  ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>hurdles > >>such as this one.  I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I >>know that it helped African Americans enter the work place.   Maybe >>the only way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue >>is through reverse discrimination.  The legislation is there in the >>form of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented.  I work with >>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>system is > >>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text.  The >>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is > discriminatory! >>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>reverse discrimination.  The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>but > >>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>through any program.  They should be able to apply off of the street >>like anyone else.  A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >>even interview them.  I'm working in this field and I see that happen >>every day.  If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >>service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working >>with the Lighthouse?"  The reason that companies do this is because >>they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the >>Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job.  My >>question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee > has the skills? >>They want an incentive to hire disabled people.  The attitude is "oh, >>yeh?  You want me to hire a blind person?  You better give me a tax >>break."  In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh?  You better pay me >>to hire that blind person."  This is the current situation.  Our >>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>Goodwill thrive off of this.  In job development exercises we are >>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client.  How is >>this > >>any better than the quota system?  I'm not saying the quota system is >>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>an > effective way of >>proving that "we are worth something."    If there is a better option >>I would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>change. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could >>argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>because > >>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain > quota. >>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >>  ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>This >>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Ashley, >>   You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>you're probably right.  But there should be, and that's why this >>boycott makes sense to me.  If you have some branches paying any >>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy > to set that straight. >>Unfortunate, but true.  I really think it is that simple...this is one >>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>humble > >>opinion. >>   Take it or leave it, >>Kirt >> >>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>  Elizabeth, >>  Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>are >> >>  paid >> >>  above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >> they > >>pay. I >> >>  don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >>  Ashley >> >>  -----Original Message----- >>  From: Elizabeth >>  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Hi Greg, >> >>  Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >>  still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >>  it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>considerable > >>amount more than what most people are making to achieve  such an >>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>the > >>information you cited from the article, but rather  questioning the >>information that was cited in the article itself. >>  There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>I am >>  sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >>  Warm regards, >>  Elizabeth >> >>  -------------------------------------------------- >>  From: "Greg Aikens" >  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>  >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Hi Elizabeth, >>  I should have included my sources.  The first was the article >>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>ed-E >>  mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>employees impacted and their average wage.  The reason that an average >>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because  many >>states > >>have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >>  than the federal minimum wage.  For  a quick list of minimum wage by >>state, go to: >>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >>  Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >>  -Greg >> >>  On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >>  Hi Gregg, >> >>  I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > >>exactly >> >>  does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>calculated >> >>  average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>factory > >>worker or the >> >>  average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, >>but if >> >>  what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >>  of paying people subminimum wage. >> >>  Warm regards, >>  Elizabeth >> >> >>  -------------------------------------------------- >>  From: "Greg Aikens" >  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>  >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>actually >> >>  make these changes.  According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >> 7300 > >>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled  workers less >>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is  $7.47, which is >>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of  $7.25.  I can't say >>what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >>  would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >>  could be higher than $8.50.  So they would have to on average pay >>workers with disabilities >>  $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year.  Multiply that >> >>  by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >>  I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>is so >> >>  high. >> >>  Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>post in case others are interested too. >> >>  -Greg >>  On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >>  Good afternoon, >> >>  One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >>  for >>  the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >>  We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >>  most >>  visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >>  with >>  disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >>  pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >> scrutinized > >>by people in and out of your field. That's just the  way it goes. >> >>  Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>  Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>to create employment opportunities >> >>  for >>  blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >>  management of >> >>  these >>  non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce  output >>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >>  I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >>  most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>the > >>wage to give them >> >>  the >>  dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >>  I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >>  hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and  fails to >>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum  wage apply, but >>organizations wishing to receive preferential  treatment in government >>contracting should have to >> >>  fill >>  a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >>  now, >>  there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >>  While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >>  the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that > >>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of  America, >>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >>  lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >>  Will >>  is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >> us >> >>  to >>  keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all  their >>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in  cost >>realistically going to >> >>  lead >>  to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>I >> >>  can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>currently makes $1.50 an >> >>  hour. >>  Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >> employee > >>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >>  extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>  This would represent an annual cost increase >> >>  of >>  $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >>  pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >>  shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>changed is bogus and cynical. >>  As I >>  said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >>  business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >>  the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>government pays. >>  And, as >>  I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>support the >> >>  70, >>  80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >>  they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>  It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >>  because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > >>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >>  Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.co > m -- Bill Casson University of New Mexico M.S. Computer Science Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. (505) 695-1374 cassonw at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 16:00:40 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:00:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA1@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> References: <000f01cd4974$f0c74e80$d255eb80$@gmail.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA1@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <000501cd497d$afb4be10$0f1e3a30$@gmail.com> Hi Zanaira, Very much so. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 11:28 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Would you say that Apple has a friendlier philosophy in regards to accessibility? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:58 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Hi Bill, I don't have much experience with Macs, but I wouldn't describe VoiceOver on iOS devices, s like the iPhone or iPod Touch as "poor." In fact, I think it's a very good screen reader. Just my thoughts, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:23 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider viriety of everyday and specialty programs. Bill On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: > It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web > cites a long with telecommunications and other such services.   There > is a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may > apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility?    The Apple > conversion was just a thought. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of David Andrews > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Please get your information straight.  The ADA does not currently > cover web sites.  It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. > > Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be > applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come > close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make > employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. > > Dave > > At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>employers will be using Apple products and  many jobs will become >>accessible.  If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion.  I have two >>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>with the employer's technology.  This is a form of discrimination and >>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>violate > >>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. > >>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>were > enforced. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >>not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >>schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe >>we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible > programs? >>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >> >>  ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>hurdles > >>such as this one.  I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I >>know that it helped African Americans enter the work place.   Maybe >>the only way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue >>is through reverse discrimination.  The legislation is there in the >>form of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented.  I work with >>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>system is > >>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text.  The >>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is > discriminatory! >>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>reverse discrimination.  The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>but > >>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>through any program.  They should be able to apply off of the street >>like anyone else.  A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >>even interview them.  I'm working in this field and I see that happen >>every day.  If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >>service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working >>with the Lighthouse?"  The reason that companies do this is because >>they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the >>Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job.  My >>question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee > has the skills? >>They want an incentive to hire disabled people.  The attitude is "oh, >>yeh?  You want me to hire a blind person?  You better give me a tax >>break."  In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh?  You better pay me >>to hire that blind person."  This is the current situation.  Our >>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>Goodwill thrive off of this.  In job development exercises we are >>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client.  How is >>this > >>any better than the quota system?  I'm not saying the quota system is >>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>an > effective way of >>proving that "we are worth something."    If there is a better option >>I would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>change. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could >>argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>because > >>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain > quota. >>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >>  ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>This >>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Ashley, >>   You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>you're probably right.  But there should be, and that's why this >>boycott makes sense to me.  If you have some branches paying any >>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy > to set that straight. >>Unfortunate, but true.  I really think it is that simple...this is one >>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>humble > >>opinion. >>   Take it or leave it, >>Kirt >> >>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>  Elizabeth, >>  Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>are >> >>  paid >> >>  above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >> they > >>pay. I >> >>  don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >>  Ashley >> >>  -----Original Message----- >>  From: Elizabeth >>  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Hi Greg, >> >>  Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >>  still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >>  it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>considerable > >>amount more than what most people are making to achieve  such an >>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>the > >>information you cited from the article, but rather  questioning the >>information that was cited in the article itself. >>  There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>I am >>  sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >>  Warm regards, >>  Elizabeth >> >>  -------------------------------------------------- >>  From: "Greg Aikens" >  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>  >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Hi Elizabeth, >>  I should have included my sources.  The first was the article >>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>ed-E >>  mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>employees impacted and their average wage.  The reason that an average >>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because  many >>states > >>have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >>  than the federal minimum wage.  For  a quick list of minimum wage by >>state, go to: >>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >>  Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >>  -Greg >> >>  On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >>  Hi Gregg, >> >>  I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > >>exactly >> >>  does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>calculated >> >>  average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>factory > >>worker or the >> >>  average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, >>but if >> >>  what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >>  of paying people subminimum wage. >> >>  Warm regards, >>  Elizabeth >> >> >>  -------------------------------------------------- >>  From: "Greg Aikens" >  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>  >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>  Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>actually >> >>  make these changes.  According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >> 7300 > >>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled  workers less >>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is  $7.47, which is >>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of  $7.25.  I can't say >>what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >>  would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >>  could be higher than $8.50.  So they would have to on average pay >>workers with disabilities >>  $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year.  Multiply that >> >>  by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >>  I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>is so >> >>  high. >> >>  Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>post in case others are interested too. >> >>  -Greg >>  On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >>  Good afternoon, >> >>  One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >>  for >>  the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >>  We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >>  most >>  visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >>  with >>  disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >>  pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >> scrutinized > >>by people in and out of your field. That's just the  way it goes. >> >>  Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>  Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>to create employment opportunities >> >>  for >>  blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >>  management of >> >>  these >>  non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce  output >>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >>  I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >>  most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>the > >>wage to give them >> >>  the >>  dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >>  I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >>  hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and  fails to >>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum  wage apply, but >>organizations wishing to receive preferential  treatment in government >>contracting should have to >> >>  fill >>  a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >>  now, >>  there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >>  While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >>  the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that > >>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of  America, >>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >>  lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >>  Will >>  is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >> us >> >>  to >>  keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all  their >>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in  cost >>realistically going to >> >>  lead >>  to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>I >> >>  can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>currently makes $1.50 an >> >>  hour. >>  Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >> employee > >>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >>  extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>  This would represent an annual cost increase >> >>  of >>  $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >>  pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >>  shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>changed is bogus and cynical. >>  As I >>  said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >>  business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >>  the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>government pays. >>  And, as >>  I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>support the >> >>  70, >>  80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >>  they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>  It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >>  because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > >>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >>  Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.co > m -- Bill Casson University of New Mexico M.S. Computer Science Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. (505) 695-1374 cassonw at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldo e.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 16:13:25 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:13:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001cd497f$77e20db0$67a62910$@gmail.com> Hi Arielle, A great post!! I couldn't have said it better myself, so I won't say any more! I agree completely with what you have said. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:45 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired Hi all, Brandon-undoubtedly you've stumbled upon an issue that has been contentious in the blind community at times, because labels have meaning and words have power. The terms "blind" and "visually impaired" have many different connotations, some desirable and some not so much. I want to present my personal views and reactions to these two terms, and explain why I now use "blind" to describe any person who uses nonvisual techniques to observe and interact with their world. I was born with only light perception, so I am essentially totally blind (if people ask, I sometimes say I am "99% blind" and my tiny bit of usable vision is only functional in a few select situations). Because of this, I grew up referring to myself as blind and never gave it a second thought. However, I had some friends growing up who were in that grey area where they had enough vision to get by without blindness techniques but who still qualified for blindness services (TVI's etc.) My friends referred to themselves as visually impaired and I thought that label was totally harmless and legitimate as a way of differentiating between totally blind folks like me and folks who had usable vision. Over the past few years I have stopped using "visually impaired" for two main reasons. First, the term "visually impaired" includes the word "impaired" which literally means defective or inferior. The word blind, while it has some bad historical connotations, does not literally mean inferiority or defect. It simply means unable to see, but it can be interpreted in many different ways. I choose to use the word "blind" and to interpret it in a positive way rather than using a term that focuses attention on what is broken. My friends who have usable vision are not broken or "impaired" any more or less than I am; they are people who, like me, happen to observe and interact with their world, at least somewhat, in nonvisual ways. Given the chance, I would rather not think of myself as broken or defective either, which is why I continue to call myself blind. I know that in some sighted people's eyes (not all, but some) the word "blind" still means "broken" but I feel that these people would see me as broken even if I called myself visually impaired instead. Words have power, and I would rather create my own definition for the word "blind". Second, over the years I have talked with several people who have usable vision about their experiences with negotiating their identities. I have heard over and over again from people who found peace, resolution, and even joy when they began to refer to themselves as blind, use blindness techniques and become full members of the blind community. Before calling themselves blind, these folks (and some of you on this list have experienced this too, and can elaborate) often tried to pass as sighted, but became frustrated or depressed when this attempt to pass wasn't completely effective. Hiding blindness has its advantages, but when one's vision is simply not good enough to make it possible without sacrificing competence (i.e. running into things, falling, not being able to read, etc.) passing can become more of a burden than a privilege. Calling oneself blind and developing an identity as blind can be very liberating, as again, it pulls focus away from the broken vision and toward the effective nonvisual methods of observing and interacting. So I call my friends blind rather than visually impaired because I want to respect their blind identities and the peace and resolve that comes with them. Again, while I have not done a study on this (I might, sometime!) I don't think sighted people really understand the nuances between blind and visually impaired. Some sighted folks think of beggars, depression and darkness when you say blind; however, I'd bet they'd still think of those things if you used the term visually impaired, sight-impaired, sightless, optically challenged or any other term that really means "blind" in fancier language. And there are other sighted folks who have no mental associations, good or bad, with the word blind. These folks can learn from our example that "blind" is neither good nor bad, but simply means you observe and interact with your world using means other than vision. My sighted boyfriend, who had no experience with blindness before me, sometimes teases me by calling me "blindie" and that is not meant as an insult. In fact, he knows that I have several dear friends I jokingly refer to as "blindies" and so the word has mildly positive connotations for me, and for him. The issue of whether or not to tell an employer you are blind, visually impaired or whatever is a whole separate thing. But I would argue that if using a blindness technique like Braille, JAWS or a cane/dog would allow you to perform the job better, it's worth the risk to tell your employer you are blind and use these techniques on the job. It's much better than floundering around without blindness techniques and eventually getting fired for poor performance. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 16:52:49 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:52:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs airport call Message-ID: NABS Presents:Airports and Independent Travel. GreetingsNabs, No matter if you are planning on going on a summer vacation, heading home from campus for the summer, or going to the National Convention of the NFB (and we know that you’ll most certainly be doing the latter at least), we know that you’ll likely be hopping on the nearest (and cheapest) airplane you can find in order to do so. But before you print that ticket, grab those bags and hit the door, you might want to join the National Association of Blind Students for a call that will Make you feel “supa fly” ( ok… maybe just more confident about the whole flying and airport thing). Hear from guest speaker, NABS board member Dominique Lawless, as she gives pointers on how to navigate the airport scene with confidence,independence and, just as important… no stress! When: Sunday June 17, 6:30 p.m. ET Where: conference call: (712) 775-7100 Code: 257963 Nabs Membership Committee From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Wed Jun 13 16:57:57 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:57:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <002b01cd477a$b777db00$1400ba43@BRIAN> References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com><16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC> <002b01cd477a$b777db00$1400ba43@BRIAN> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA3@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Ashley- I see where you are coming from. If someone can't work competitively = then why should they be paid competitively? The answer is that if they = can't work competitively, they shouldn't be hired. The truth is that = many people can work competitively and employers need to realize that. = -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On = Behalf Of Brian Hatgelakas Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Please email me the press release about Goodwill to = brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"=20 Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > Hi all, > Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the=20 > fact that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a = boycott. > Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. > > Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large=20 > nonprofits do it. > Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities;=20 > most press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind"=20 > or something like it, not people with disabilities. > Our focus is usually on blind people. > Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage.=20 > Where is the evidence? > I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. > > Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum=20 > wage go away. > I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum = wage. > Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses=20 > and are cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to=20 > think about. > Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and=20 > handle it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if = > they really need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that=20 > of other workers. > > I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised = > we still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news = > for you. > There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even=20 > the legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see=20 > the exemptions and loopholes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But I=20 > have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think they mean = > a boycott in the buying and selling senses. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very many=20 > people who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will=20 > do the trick. > Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations telling=20 > them of the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that=20 > working without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point=20 > home, point out that this under minimum wage is a way for the United=20 > States to keep a handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way=20 > for under minimum wage to be instituted back in for everyone else. The = > precedent is there, so everyone needs to overturn this law so no one=20 > anywhere in the United States can ever be paid under minimum wage =20 > again. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to=20 > this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put = > pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as=20 > well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually=20 > end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum=20 > wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and=20 > including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted=20 > population. If potential employers see this change happening, those=20 > employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that=20 > blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more = > change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope=20 > that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted=20 > universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled=20 > workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage=20 > policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might=20 > follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within=20 > Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change=20 > simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries=20 > adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so that would help = > with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > =93Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens = can=20 > change the world; indeed, it=92s the only thing that ever has.? > =97MARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage=20 > policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a = > benefit to boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill = > Industries would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair=20 > wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to=20 > adopt a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the=20 > approach that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the=20 > decisions in individual locations. I do understand the point of=20 > leading local business leaders to undergo philosophical change and=20 > choose to pay their workers fair wages, but which item is the top=20 > priority: education of individuals or > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > =93Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens = can=20 > change the world; indeed, it=92s the only thing that ever has.? > =97MARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for=20 > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > = http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthli= nk.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for=20 > nabs-l: > = http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brian.hatgelakas%40ve= rizon.net >=20 From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 16:57:54 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:57:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs Convention Call. Message-ID: Introducing the Nabs Membership call for June: "It's All About Convention 2012!" Whether you have been to the Convention of the national Federation of the Blind before or this year will be your first time going, come and hear all about what makes convention fun, informative and an experience you will most likely never forget! Join us as we hear from Sean Whalen,NABS president, who will be on hand to give you an overview of what events the National Association of Blind Students have planned and how you can help. Also Hear From Meleah Jensen, coordinator of the youth track activities at convention, and learn about the special events that are just for you, the high school and under crowd. Bring your convention experiences, and questions! When: Sunday, June 17, 7:15 PM Eastern. Where: Conference call: (712) 775-7100, passcode 257963. Your Nabs Membership Committee From djdan567 at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 17:45:06 2012 From: djdan567 at gmail.com (Daniel Romero) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:45:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Audio of me on Elvis Duran and the Morning show Message-ID: On monday, June 11, I got the chance to go to the studios of radio station Z100 in New York, one of the biggest top 40 stations in the country. This is the second time I've been there. In the past year, i have been lucky to become friends with the morning show, who are sindicated to over fourty markets in the country. I was there in november, and they put me on the air. This audio I'm about to post, is from my visit on monday. Although there are jokes, I love spreading awareness about blindness, and having fun with them. We spoke about discriptive movies, my guide dog Teeva, and ATMs with braille just to name a few. Check it out here! Enjoy! http://soundcloud.com/danrmusic-1/120611-dan-on-air PS. If you'd like to hear the audio of me back in november, where I demonstrated the money reader app on the iPhone, and we played a little contest, just go down, and the file says, "In studio with Elvis Duran and the Morning show." -- Daniel C Romero Paterson New Jersey Cell Phone: 973-955-6955 website: http://www.danrmusic.me Music Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/DanRMusic1 Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/DanRMusic From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 18:17:24 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:17:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired In-Reply-To: <5A9DDE8C474B42C3B08A4C4B00F1540F@userPC> References: <5A9DDE8C474B42C3B08A4C4B00F1540F@userPC> Message-ID: <85032588284545B48D0EDE87DFDFD074@OwnerPC> Rania, It makes sense to say "blind" for you and Arielle when you two are actually blind; You cannot see things and function with vision except for knowing if lights are on. As you said saying visually impaired is misleading since you have no vision. But should those of us with functional vision say blind still? One could argue that saying blind when you can read signs, see colors to some extent, read your money, identify cans of food based on the pictures or colors, etc is misleading too. BTW, I have central vision and can do all those tasks with good lighting. So should we distinguish among levels of vision? NFB doesn't thinks so. No distinguishing mark is made between low vision and blindness. Kenneth Jernigan puts forth a functional definition of blindness. If you meet his definition, you are blind in NFB circles. Now that might go well in NFB, but I have news. The federal government establishes a cut off of blindness. Legal blindness means 20/200 vision or a field no greater than 20 degrees. Oh, and if your vision is correctable, you’re not legally blind. You can be called visually impaired or low vision, but you cannot say you are technically blind. If you do, the government does not recognize it. You have to be legally blind to receive goods and services set aside for the blind such as VR services. -----Original Message----- From: Rania Ismail CMT Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:16 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired Ariel I agree with you. I like you have been blind from birth and have a little light perception that I can't do much with at all. I am more comfortable with calling my self blind because like you that's all I have known. I also have some friends who consider themselves visually impaired but I also call all of my friends blind. I really don't like it when people call my blindness a visual impairment because I feel like that gives a person the idea that I have some usable vision when that is not the case. As for getting a job I am a massage therapist at a local salon in New Jersey. I got the job because I explained that I was blind but I went farther and explained that I use transportation to get to and from work. As well as how I keep notes on the client's I see I am on call so they let me know when a client wants to come in for a massage. This is helpful because finding transportation is difficult at times but after I explained how I get to work and that I was still really interested in working for him as a massage therapist I was hyered! I am proud to say that the client's my co-workers and managers really like me and support me every step of the way. Sometimes I think it is a matter of the employer really needing to fill a spot and if they can put your blindness aside so you can show them what your abilities are to me they would I think see you as just another blind person doing what everyone else does so I think telling your employer about your blindness is better. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 1:45 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired Hi all, Brandon-undoubtedly you've stumbled upon an issue that has been contentious in the blind community at times, because labels have meaning and words have power. The terms "blind" and "visually impaired" have many different connotations, some desirable and some not so much. I want to present my personal views and reactions to these two terms, and explain why I now use "blind" to describe any person who uses nonvisual techniques to observe and interact with their world. I was born with only light perception, so I am essentially totally blind (if people ask, I sometimes say I am "99% blind" and my tiny bit of usable vision is only functional in a few select situations). Because of this, I grew up referring to myself as blind and never gave it a second thought. However, I had some friends growing up who were in that grey area where they had enough vision to get by without blindness techniques but who still qualified for blindness services (TVI's etc.) My friends referred to themselves as visually impaired and I thought that label was totally harmless and legitimate as a way of differentiating between totally blind folks like me and folks who had usable vision. Over the past few years I have stopped using "visually impaired" for two main reasons. First, the term "visually impaired" includes the word "impaired" which literally means defective or inferior. The word blind, while it has some bad historical connotations, does not literally mean inferiority or defect. It simply means unable to see, but it can be interpreted in many different ways. I choose to use the word "blind" and to interpret it in a positive way rather than using a term that focuses attention on what is broken. My friends who have usable vision are not broken or "impaired" any more or less than I am; they are people who, like me, happen to observe and interact with their world, at least somewhat, in nonvisual ways. Given the chance, I would rather not think of myself as broken or defective either, which is why I continue to call myself blind. I know that in some sighted people's eyes (not all, but some) the word "blind" still means "broken" but I feel that these people would see me as broken even if I called myself visually impaired instead. Words have power, and I would rather create my own definition for the word "blind". Second, over the years I have talked with several people who have usable vision about their experiences with negotiating their identities. I have heard over and over again from people who found peace, resolution, and even joy when they began to refer to themselves as blind, use blindness techniques and become full members of the blind community. Before calling themselves blind, these folks (and some of you on this list have experienced this too, and can elaborate) often tried to pass as sighted, but became frustrated or depressed when this attempt to pass wasn't completely effective. Hiding blindness has its advantages, but when one's vision is simply not good enough to make it possible without sacrificing competence (i.e. running into things, falling, not being able to read, etc.) passing can become more of a burden than a privilege. Calling oneself blind and developing an identity as blind can be very liberating, as again, it pulls focus away from the broken vision and toward the effective nonvisual methods of observing and interacting. So I call my friends blind rather than visually impaired because I want to respect their blind identities and the peace and resolve that comes with them. Again, while I have not done a study on this (I might, sometime!) I don't think sighted people really understand the nuances between blind and visually impaired. Some sighted folks think of beggars, depression and darkness when you say blind; however, I'd bet they'd still think of those things if you used the term visually impaired, sight-impaired, sightless, optically challenged or any other term that really means "blind" in fancier language. And there are other sighted folks who have no mental associations, good or bad, with the word blind. These folks can learn from our example that "blind" is neither good nor bad, but simply means you observe and interact with your world using means other than vision. My sighted boyfriend, who had no experience with blindness before me, sometimes teases me by calling me "blindie" and that is not meant as an insult. In fact, he knows that I have several dear friends I jokingly refer to as "blindies" and so the word has mildly positive connotations for me, and for him. The issue of whether or not to tell an employer you are blind, visually impaired or whatever is a whole separate thing. But I would argue that if using a blindness technique like Braille, JAWS or a cane/dog would allow you to perform the job better, it's worth the risk to tell your employer you are blind and use these techniques on the job. It's much better than floundering around without blindness techniques and eventually getting fired for poor performance. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 18:18:30 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:18:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA0@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> References: <4fd770e8.a2adec0a.7467.fffffa6b@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A99@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA0@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <948821E1876941CA87D9302316C557D0@OwnerPC> Hi, Um, I've never heard the ADA applied to websites; I wish it did because online shopping now is as common as in person shopping. -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 9:14 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple conversion was just a thought. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. Dave At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites violate >the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Sophie Trist >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe >we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >the only >way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the >ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients >every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is >running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >even interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen >every day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working >with the Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because >they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the >Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job. My >question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this >any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >option I >would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >change. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Sophie Trist >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could >argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because >we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >This >would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >Ashley, > You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >opinion. > Take it or leave it, >Kirt > >On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >are > > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article >recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > >http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >ed-E > mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >have minimum wage laws that are higher > > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >exactly > > does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >calculated > > average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >worker or the > > average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, >but if > > what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > > of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > > make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >what the average minimum wage for these workers > > would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > > could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >workers with disabilities > $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > > by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >is so > > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >post in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media > attention > > for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest > and > > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay > workers > > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > > pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >the federal government, providing goods and services through >non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. > Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >to create employment opportunities > > for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > > management of > > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >justifying the minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > > most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >wage to give them > > the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > > hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >contracting should have to > > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > > now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > > the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that >it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > > lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >completely correct. The boycott of Good > > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of > us > > to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >realistically going to > > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >I > > can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >currently makes $1.50 an > > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > > extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > This would represent an annual cost increase > > of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > > pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > > shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >changed is bogus and cynical. > As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > > business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > > the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >government pays. > And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >support the > > 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > > they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > > because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >everybody in the employment market, full stop. > > Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 17:23:37 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:23:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA3@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com><16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC><002b01cd477a$b777db00$1400ba43@BRIAN> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA3@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <10EC810A1D4B4455B3FBFA4FD3B2DC19@OwnerPC> Zunaira, Oh, saying they shouldn't be hired sounds a bit harsh. Workshops and similar settings do serve a valuable purpose since they produce products for the government and military. I don't think disabled people should have to work there, but it should be an option for them. Its doing something and they get out of the house. I mean, its more productive than say sitting at home or going to an adult day care center. Some people cannot work competetively, and that is okay. You do what you can. I've seen people with lots of limitations in school and around the area. Some of them are in wheelchairs with speech problems from cerebral pulsy. Others are autistic and cannot talk or talk limitedly. Others just have cognitive delays that prevent their brain from processing input including speech in a regular speed. It takes a lot to work competetively, not only making accomodations to access text material, but also you have to have some social skills, dress professionally, and yes keep up with deadlines. If one area is lacking, it could cause problems working and holding a competetive job. I believe in integrated settings when possible. I don't think a blind person need work at Good will. But I'm sure other disabled people need or want that setting. As for the wage thing, I have mixed feelings. I do see the discrimination side, but on the other hand, why pay them a regular wage when they are not performing a competetive job and as I said before, many of them have guardians that handle their money anyway since they cannot do it themselves. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Ashley- I see where you are coming from. If someone can't work competitively then why should they be paid competitively? The answer is that if they can't work competitively, they shouldn't be hired. The truth is that many people can work competitively and employers need to realize that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Hatgelakas Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Please email me the press release about Goodwill to brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > Hi all, > Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the > fact that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. > Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. > > Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large > nonprofits do it. > Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; > most press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" > or something like it, not people with disabilities. > Our focus is usually on blind people. > Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. > Where is the evidence? > I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. > > Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum > wage go away. > I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum wage. > Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses > and are cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to > think about. > Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and > handle it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if > they really need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that > of other workers. > > I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised > we still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news > for you. > There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even > the legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see > the exemptions and loopholes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But I > have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think they mean > a boycott in the buying and selling senses. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very many > people who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will > do the trick. > Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations telling > them of the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that > working without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point > home, point out that this under minimum wage is a way for the United > States to keep a handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way > for under minimum wage to be instituted back in for everyone else. The > precedent is there, so everyone needs to overturn this law so no one > anywhere in the United States can ever be paid under minimum wage > again. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to > this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put > pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as > well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually > end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum > wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and > including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted > population. If potential employers see this change happening, those > employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that > blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more > change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope > that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled > workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage > policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might > follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within > Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change > simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries > adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so that would help > with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.? > �MARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a > benefit to boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill > Industries would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair > wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to > adopt a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the > approach that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the > decisions in individual locations. I do understand the point of > leading local business leaders to undergo philosophical change and > choose to pay their workers fair wages, but which item is the top > priority: education of individuals or > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.? > �MARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brian.hatgelakas%40verizon.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Wed Jun 13 18:27:58 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:27:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <948821E1876941CA87D9302316C557D0@OwnerPC> References: <4fd770e8.a2adec0a.7467.fffffa6b@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A99@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA0@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <948821E1876941CA87D9302316C557D0@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA6@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Isn't that why so many web cites have an accessibility link now? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hi, Um, I've never heard the ADA applied to websites; I wish it did because online shopping now is as common as in person shopping. -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 9:14 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple conversion was just a thought. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. Dave At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites violate >the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Sophie Trist >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe >we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >the only >way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the >ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients >every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is >running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >even interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen >every day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working >with the Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because >they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the >Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job. My >question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this >any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >option I >would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >change. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Sophie Trist >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could >argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because >we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >This >would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >Ashley, > You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >opinion. > Take it or leave it, >Kirt > >On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >are > > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article >recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > >http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >ed-E > mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >have minimum wage laws that are higher > > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >exactly > > does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >calculated > > average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >worker or the > > average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, >but if > > what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > > of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > > make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >what the average minimum wage for these workers > > would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > > could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >workers with disabilities > $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > > by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >so > > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >post in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media > attention > > for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest > and > > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay > workers > > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > > pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >the federal government, providing goods and services through >non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. > Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >to create employment opportunities > > for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > > management of > > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >justifying the minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > > most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >wage to give them > > the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > > hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >contracting should have to > > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > > now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > > the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that >it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > > lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >completely correct. The boycott of Good > > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of > us > > to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >realistically going to > > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >I > > can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >currently makes $1.50 an > > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > > extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > This would represent an annual cost increase > > of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > > pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > > shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >changed is bogus and cynical. > As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > > business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > > the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >government pays. > And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >support the > > 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > > they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > > because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >everybody in the employment market, full stop. > > Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Wed Jun 13 18:46:50 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:46:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <10EC810A1D4B4455B3FBFA4FD3B2DC19@OwnerPC> References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com><16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC><002b01cd477a$b777db00$1400ba43@BRIAN><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA3@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <10EC810A1D4B4455B3FBFA4FD3B2DC19@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA7@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Someone made the point earlier that certain jobs are exempt from the = minimum wage standard. I wonder why those jobs are exempt. I see what = you are saying Ashley in regards to some employees not being able to = work competitively. I guess the solution may lie in classifying jobs = according to whether or not they fall with in the exempt category. That = is a slippery slope however. I would rather air on the side of caution = and just say that all jobs are valuable and no job should be exempt from = the minimum wage standard. An employee that can't work competitively = in a customer service job should not be hired doing customer service. = They definitely shouldn't be hired in that capacity and paid less than = their peers. If that person's aptitudes are better suited to factory = work then they should do that and should be paid at least minimum wage. = Even piece work should be treated as valuable competitive employment in = my opinion and should not be exempt from the minimum wage standard. =20 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On = Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 1:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Zunaira, Oh, saying they shouldn't be hired sounds a bit harsh. Workshops and = similar settings do serve a valuable purpose since they produce products = for the government and military. I don't think disabled people should = have to work there, but it should be an option for them. Its doing = something and they get out of the house. I mean, its more productive = than say sitting at home or going to an adult day care center. Some people cannot work competetively, and that is okay. You do what you = can. I've seen people with lots of limitations in school and around the = area. Some of them are in wheelchairs with speech problems from cerebral = pulsy. Others are autistic and cannot talk or talk limitedly. Others = just have cognitive delays that prevent their brain from processing = input including speech in a regular speed. It takes a lot to work competetively, not only making accomodations to = access text material, but also you have to have some social skills, = dress professionally, and yes keep up with deadlines. If one area is = lacking, it could cause problems working and holding a competetive job. I believe in integrated settings when possible. I don't think a blind = person need work at Good will. But I'm sure other disabled people need or want that setting. As for the = wage thing, I have mixed feelings. I do see the discrimination side, but = on the other hand, why pay them a regular wage when they are not = performing a competetive job and as I said before, many of them have = guardians that handle their money anyway since they cannot do it = themselves. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Ashley- I see where you are coming from. If someone can't work competitively = then why should they be paid competitively? The answer is that if they = can't work competitively, they shouldn't be hired. The truth is that = many people can work competitively and employers need to realize that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On = Behalf Of Brian Hatgelakas Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Please email me the press release about Goodwill to = brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > Hi all, > Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the > fact that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a = boycott. > Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. > > Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large > nonprofits do it. > Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; > most press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" > or something like it, not people with disabilities. > Our focus is usually on blind people. > Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. > Where is the evidence? > I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. > > Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum > wage go away. > I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum = wage. > Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses > and are cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to > think about. > Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and > handle it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if > they really need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that > of other workers. > > I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised > we still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news > for you. > There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even > the legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see > the exemptions and loopholes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But I > have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think they mean > a boycott in the buying and selling senses. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very many > people who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will > do the trick. > Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations telling > them of the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that > working without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point > home, point out that this under minimum wage is a way for the United > States to keep a handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way > for under minimum wage to be instituted back in for everyone else. The > precedent is there, so everyone needs to overturn this law so no one > anywhere in the United States can ever be paid under minimum wage > again. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to > this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put > pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as > well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually > end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum > wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and > including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted > population. If potential employers see this change happening, those > employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that > blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more > change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope > that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled > workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage > policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might > follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within > Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change > simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries > adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so that would help > with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > =93Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens = can > change the world; indeed, it=92s the only thing that ever has.? > =97MARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a > benefit to boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill > Industries would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair > wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to > adopt a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the > approach that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the > decisions in individual locations. I do understand the point of > leading local business leaders to undergo philosophical change and > choose to pay their workers fair wages, but which item is the top > priority: education of individuals or > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > =93Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens = can > change the world; indeed, it=92s the only thing that ever has.? > =97MARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > = http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthli= nk.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > = http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brian.hatgelakas%40ve= rizon.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for=20 nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthli= nk.net=20 From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 18:03:36 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:03:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <4FEC3E533D054ACAB2564FF1C8293EE8@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net><39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2><4fd80d49.447cb60a.6f50.378b@mx.google.com> <4FEC3E533D054ACAB2564FF1C8293EE8@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <7B713EDFE8A14441BEFB6B80B82C95BA@OwnerPC> Brandon, But do you have any functional vision? If you do, I agree with visually impaired. If you really see nothing but light, and cannot see with your eyes, then why say visually impaired? That to me is evasive. You don't want to make blindness an issue when selling yourself but you do want to say your blind and need accomodations; put it in a positive light. For instance, say you use a screen reader to perform internet functions and word processing. Never say you couldn't do a task based on blindness; say you'd be willing to do what you could working as a team; your team will have sighted people so they can serve as your eyes. I could be wrong, but those saying they are blind here and argue its word are actually blind. That includes Joshua Lester, Chris, Karen and Arielle. My friends not in NFB who are actually blind say blind. They may not like the word or the disability of blindness, but they call themselves blind since they are really blind. The question IMO arises more is does a low vision person call themselves blind or visually impaired? I have mixed feelings about labels. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:25 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hello, The topic is being hired by sighted people. The fact is, sighted employers and sighted people in general think that saying "I'm blind" is repulsive and undesirable. Your aim when you go into interview for a job is to get the job, so if that means pandering to make your blindness more acceptable on the first introduction, I would do it. Often it's the difference between getting the job or not. That first impression needs to deemphasize the blindness and emphasize your qualifications and ability to do the job better than everyone else. After you get the job you can go in with your glass eyes hanging in a bag around your neck with a big shirt proclaiming in big huge letters (Both in Braille and large print): I'm blind and I'm proud! You can also advertise the Braille coins and anything else your heart desires in order to feel the best you possibly can about yourself. But that interview is all about the employer and not about you. Don't make it about you until the very end or until you get the job. When I go into an audition I always try to ask right before I get off stage if the directors have any questions about my visual impairment, but that's almost like an afterthought and not even really worth their consideration. Before an audition if there is a cold-read I ask if I could please have the cold reads ahead of time, so I can put them into an accessible format because I'm visually impaired. I've said, I'm blind, can I please have the cold reads so I can read them with my screen reader, but they don't give them to me. Once you put that blindness statement in there, they get all scared and just ignore you. I've had it happen to me many times and it's much worse being rejected just on the principal that you're blind than it is being rejected after they have met you, seen you, heard you, talked to you and seen your enthusiasm. But totally go all out with your friends and coworkers about being blind, but after you get the job! Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Karen Anderson Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:47 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hello Brandon and all, While I understand where you are coming from, I don't feel your argument holds up. I am all for assimilating into a sighted world, but I don't think calling myself "visually impaired," falls into that category. To me, fitting into a sighted world involves understanding social cues, and using my alternative techniques to the best of my ability to accomplish the same activities as my sighted peers. Assimilating into sighted culture means knowing not to eat your mashed potatoes with your hands, and not sticking your nose in your food while you're trying to see if you've cut a piece of meat. To me, "blind" is just a word, and "blindness" is just one of the characteristics that makes me me. Furthermore, the more we shy away from using that 5 letter word, the less we will be accepted into society. While saying "visually impaired" is sometimes more accepted in today's culture, it serves little purpose other than to further the hierarchy of sight. I am no better or worse off than someone who has some vision, or someone who is fully sighted. We are all people, with our own strengths and weaknesses. Buying into the argument that "visually impaired" and other such phrases are more socially acceptable also reinforces the negative stereotype that a completely blind person is inherently less capable than someone who has some remaining vision. As a member of the NFB, I believe in standing up for my rights, as well as the rights of other blind people, whether they have some vision or not. I feel that if we want society to accept us, we first have to accept ourselves. Just my thoughts, Karen -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hello Josh, We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is weird unfortunately. I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who you're selling to. A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to a strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to assimilate into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest mountain tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy up our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability imaginable. I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this time. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" Sight, and vision are two different things. Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. Vision, is mental/spiritual. The NFB has lots of vision! If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? > I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're > blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should > you tell them you're blind? > Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually > impaired, but I think that's against the law. > I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell yourself > in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually > impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad > vision, > > not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually > impaired, and it's not TOB). > If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too > elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. > But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the > workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be > accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible > products > > used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. > Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made > accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is > an > > obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring > about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a > disability. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Wasif, Zunaira > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles > such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know > that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only > way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through > reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA > and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day > who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a > program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that > employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! > It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level > building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is > reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but > the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or > through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street > like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification > from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even > interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every > day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service > job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the > Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want > their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse > that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how > do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? > They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, > yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax > break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to > hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government > pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive > off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the > corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the > quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe > it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of > proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I > would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make > change. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the > past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be > ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected > or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue > reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're > worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. > Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? > This > would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle > for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Ashley, > You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're > probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes > sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the > minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. > Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one > of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble > opinion. > Take it or leave it, > Kirt > > On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are > > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you > make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when > someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the > average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable > amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an > average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the > information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the > information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. > I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently > posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > > http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl > ed-E > mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of > employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average > wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states > have minimum wage laws that are higher > > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by > state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these > employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > exactly > > does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the > calculated > > average of these employees also includes the outrageously high > salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect > would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory > worker or the > > average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the > national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but > if > > what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > > of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually > impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > > make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 > employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less > than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is > actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say > what the average minimum wage for these workers > > would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > > could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay > workers with disabilities > $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > > by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is > so > > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would > post in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media > attention > > for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are > complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest > and > > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay > workers > > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > > pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized > by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with > the federal government, providing goods and services through > non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are > frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. > Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but > the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits > to create employment opportunities > > for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, > subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > > management of > > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled > individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output > justifying the minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are > incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > > most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of > output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the > wage to give them > > the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > > hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. > The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to > achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but > organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government > contracting should have to > > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with > disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > > now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > > the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights > organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is > reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a > law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > > lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are > completely correct. The boycott of Good > > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us > > to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it > cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their > workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost > realistically going to > > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? > I > > can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is > disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker > currently makes $1.50 an > > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee > is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > > extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees > of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > This would represent an annual cost increase > > of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > > pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > > shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor > unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is > changed is bogus and cynical. > As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > > business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > > the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the > government pays. > And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the > dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to > support the > > 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow > sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > > they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > > because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > everybody in the employment market, full stop. > > Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > a > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > ot > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > ail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > otma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif > %40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai l.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.p ccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kea.anderson%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Wed Jun 13 18:56:04 2012 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:56:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com><16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC><002b01cd477a$b777db00$1400ba43@BRIAN><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA3@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <10EC810A1D4B4455B3FBFA4FD3B2DC19@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <001401cd4996$2f85eac0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Ashley and everyone, Keep in mind that the legislation if passed would phase out subminamum wages over a three-year period giving workshops plenty of time to develop new and innovative programs to provide training to the most profoundly disabled. Many of these people ended up in good Will and other workshops due to their not having access to the same kind of training available to the blind. The fact that one does not have good social skills or cannot attend to their personal needs has nothing to do with the payment of subminamum wages to disabled workers. These concerns need to be addressed differently. There are also individuals with Servant's Syndrome who when given the right job or if they enter the right career can succeed beyond imagination. There are cases of individuals who cannot attend to their personal needs but put them in a factory setting, at a piano, or whatever you can name they're the best at their craft. We need to avoid introducing one's level of independence, personal, and social skills in to the issue of whether one should be paid a minimum wage or not. Linda may not be able to dress herself but can play Beethoven as if she was Beethoven himself and should be given a musician's wage and the spotlight at Carnegie Hall. For too long these workshops have been used as "Dumping grounds" for the seemingly unemployable. This era in our nation's history needs to come to an end. I hope we all get behind the Good Will boycott and other efforts to bring the payment of subminamum wages to disabled workers to an end. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Zunaira, Oh, saying they shouldn't be hired sounds a bit harsh. Workshops and similar settings do serve a valuable purpose since they produce products for the government and military. I don't think disabled people should have to work there, but it should be an option for them. Its doing something and they get out of the house. I mean, its more productive than say sitting at home or going to an adult day care center. Some people cannot work competetively, and that is okay. You do what you can. I've seen people with lots of limitations in school and around the area. Some of them are in wheelchairs with speech problems from cerebral pulsy. Others are autistic and cannot talk or talk limitedly. Others just have cognitive delays that prevent their brain from processing input including speech in a regular speed. It takes a lot to work competetively, not only making accomodations to access text material, but also you have to have some social skills, dress professionally, and yes keep up with deadlines. If one area is lacking, it could cause problems working and holding a competetive job. I believe in integrated settings when possible. I don't think a blind person need work at Good will. But I'm sure other disabled people need or want that setting. As for the wage thing, I have mixed feelings. I do see the discrimination side, but on the other hand, why pay them a regular wage when they are not performing a competetive job and as I said before, many of them have guardians that handle their money anyway since they cannot do it themselves. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Ashley- I see where you are coming from. If someone can't work competitively then why should they be paid competitively? The answer is that if they can't work competitively, they shouldn't be hired. The truth is that many people can work competitively and employers need to realize that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Hatgelakas Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Please email me the press release about Goodwill to brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > Hi all, > Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the > fact that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. > Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. > > Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large > nonprofits do it. > Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; > most press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" > or something like it, not people with disabilities. > Our focus is usually on blind people. > Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. > Where is the evidence? > I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. > > Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum > wage go away. > I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum wage. > Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses > and are cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to > think about. > Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and > handle it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if > they really need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that > of other workers. > > I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised > we still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news > for you. > There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even > the legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see > the exemptions and loopholes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But I > have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think they mean > a boycott in the buying and selling senses. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very many > people who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will > do the trick. > Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations telling > them of the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that > working without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point > home, point out that this under minimum wage is a way for the United > States to keep a handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way > for under minimum wage to be instituted back in for everyone else. The > precedent is there, so everyone needs to overturn this law so no one > anywhere in the United States can ever be paid under minimum wage > again. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to > this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put > pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as > well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually > end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum > wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and > including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted > population. If potential employers see this change happening, those > employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that > blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more > change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope > that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled > workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage > policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might > follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within > Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change > simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries > adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so that would help > with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.? > �MARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a > benefit to boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill > Industries would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair > wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to > adopt a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the > approach that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the > decisions in individual locations. I do understand the point of > leading local business leaders to undergo philosophical change and > choose to pay their workers fair wages, but which item is the top > priority: education of individuals or > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.? > �MARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brian.hatgelakas%40verizon.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 17:48:45 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:48:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <32E08AC23D404974BA0858BBADA6BFBC@OwnerPC> Brandon, Great points. Most of my life I've been called visually impaired. Many organizations serving us say blind and visually impaired. So, yes the public is more used to this term. I usually prefer that term as well because I have some usable vision and use alternative techniques when needed. My vision is impaired is all it means. It does help to assimulate and look sighted when you have to sell yourself. I'm not saying to hide low vision or legal blindness, just saying that you want to minimize its affects and have appropriate body language and if possible eye contact. I notice that when talking to many blind people with light perception or shadow vision, its like talking to their head. Often they don't have enough expression either. Now, I do not mean to offend people with less vision, but do you really think an employer is going to hire you if they are talking to your head and don't see your face? Often around blind people I use the word blind more. But for the reasons Brandon mentioned I say visually impaired more often. -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Hello Josh, We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is weird unfortunately. I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who you're selling to. A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to a strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to assimilate into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest mountain tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy up our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability imaginable. I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this time. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" Sight, and vision are two different things. Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. Vision, is mental/spiritual. The NFB has lots of vision! If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? > I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're > blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should > you tell them you're blind? > Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually > impaired, but I think that's against the law. > I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell yourself > in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually > impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad > vision, > > not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually > impaired, and it's not TOB). > If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too > elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. > But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the > workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be > accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible > products > > used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. > Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made > accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is > an > > obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring > about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a > disability. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Wasif, Zunaira > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles > such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know > that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only > way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through > reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA > and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day > who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a > program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that > employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! > It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level > building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is > reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but > the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or > through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street > like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification > from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even > interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every > day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service > job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the > Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want > their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse > that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how > do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? > They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, > yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax > break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to > hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government > pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive > off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the > corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the > quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe > it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of > proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I > would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make > change. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the > past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be > ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected > or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue > reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're > worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. > Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wasif, Zunaira" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? > This > would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle > for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Ashley, > You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're > probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes > sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the > minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. > Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one > of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble > opinion. > Take it or leave it, > Kirt > > On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Elizabeth, > Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are > > paid > > above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > pay. I > > don't think there is a set corporate policy. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Greg, > > Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you > make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > > still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when > someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > > it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the > average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable > amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an > average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the > information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the > information that was cited in the article itself. > There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. > I am > sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Hi Elizabeth, > I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently > posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > > http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl > ed-E > mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of > employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average > wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states > have minimum wage laws that are higher > > than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by > state, go to: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > > Please check my facts in case I misread. > > -Greg > > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hi Gregg, > > I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these > employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > exactly > > does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the > calculated > > average of these employees also includes the outrageously high > salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect > would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory > worker or the > > average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the > national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but > if > > what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > > of paying people subminimum wage. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Greg Aikens" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually > impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > > make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 > employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less > than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is > actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say > what the average minimum wage for these workers > > would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > > could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay > workers with disabilities > $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > > by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > > I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is > so > > high. > > Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would > post in case others are interested too. > > -Greg > On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > > Good afternoon, > > One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media > attention > > for > the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are > complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > > We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest > and > > most > visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay > workers > > with > disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > > pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized > by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > > Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with > the federal government, providing goods and services through > non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are > frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. > Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but > the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits > to create employment opportunities > > for > blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, > subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > > management of > > these > non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled > individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output > justifying the minimum wage in the market? > > I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are > incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > > most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of > output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the > wage to give them > > the > dignity of equal treatment under the law. > > I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > > hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. > The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to > achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but > organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government > contracting should have to > > fill > a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with > disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > > now, > there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > > While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > > the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights > organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is > reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a > law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > > lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are > completely correct. The boycott of Good > > Will > is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us > > to > keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it > cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their > workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost > realistically going to > > lead > to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? > I > > can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is > disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker > currently makes $1.50 an > > hour. > Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee > is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > > extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees > of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > This would represent an annual cost increase > > of > $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > > pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > > shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor > unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is > changed is bogus and cynical. > As I > said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > > business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > > the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the > government pays. > And, as > I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the > dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to > support the > > 70, > 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow > sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > > they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > > because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > everybody in the employment market, full stop. > > Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > a > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > ot > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm > ail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h > otma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 > 0eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud > e%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif > %40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 17:54:01 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:54:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net><39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <5654043F472647B9A84F8B170CCF309D@OwnerPC> Josh, Think about your argument. Those people were famous yes, but they were also blind and often blind from birth. I believe those people had no usable vision. So they are blind. If they said they were visually impaired, they were lying as they had no usable sight. But for many legally blind people, we actually do have vision though. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 11:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. I agree with your points here. I'd say though, it's sad that famous people have tried to do it, and have failed, miserably. I thought, that the following blind musicians did a good job of making it coool, as you put it. #1. Ray Charles. #2. Stevie Wonder #3. The Blind Boys of Alabama, and the Five Blind Boys of Mississippi, (yes, I included Gospel groups.) #4. Ronnie Milsap, (he needs to put out something new!) Also, who could forget the late Doc Watson? These guys are my role models, that I look to, because they didn't let blindness stop them! I'm also proud of Parnelle Diggs, for doing what no other blind person has tried to do, or at least, not in Arkansas! He ran for congress! I hope he wins, BTW. That way, he can be that someone famous, that we're hoping for! Blessings, Joshua On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello Josh, > We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community > calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is > weird unfortunately. > I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling > something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who > you're selling to. > A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I > wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to > a > > strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm > trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." > It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to > assimilate > > into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. > I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest > mountain > > tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy > up > > our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're > infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off > onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability > imaginable. > I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this > time. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. > I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" > Sight, and vision are two different things. > Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. > Vision, is mental/spiritual. > The NFB has lots of vision! > If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. > We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? >> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're >> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should >> you tell them you're blind? >> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually >> impaired, but I think that's against the law. >> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell >> yourself >> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually >> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad >> vision, >> >> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually >> impaired, and it's not TOB). >> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too >> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. >> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the >> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be >> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible >> products >> >> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. >> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made >> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is >> >> an >> >> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring >> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a >> disability. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wasif, Zunaira >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only >> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I >> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >> change. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >> This >> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Ashley, >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >> opinion. >> Take it or leave it, >> Kirt >> >> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Elizabeth, >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >> >> paid >> >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >> pay. I >> >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >> information that was cited in the article itself. >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >> I am >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >> ed-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >> have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >> state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >> exactly >> >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >> calculated >> >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >> worker or the >> >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >> if >> >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >> of paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >> what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >> workers with disabilities >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >> >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >> so >> >> high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >> post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >> the federal government, providing goods and services through >> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >> to create employment opportunities >> >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >> management of >> >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >> wage to give them >> >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >> contracting should have to >> >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >> completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >> >> to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >> realistically going to >> >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >> I >> >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >> currently makes $1.50 an >> >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >> This would represent an annual cost increase >> >> of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >> changed is bogus and cynical. >> As I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >> government pays. >> And, as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >> support the >> >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >> a >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >> ot >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >> ail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >> otma >> il.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >> e%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif >> %40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 13 19:44:09 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:44:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. In-Reply-To: <5654043F472647B9A84F8B170CCF309D@OwnerPC> References: <4fd7517d.106a650a.37b9.ffffcab1@mx.google.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817A95@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <39A8796D8B874CC58EB07F44B47B0F6F@BrandonsLaptop2> <5654043F472647B9A84F8B170CCF309D@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Well, if we'd replace visually impaired with shight impaired, and get that through the heads of the sightlings, (Mr Larry Whalen's term for the sighted,) we'd get somewhere. That's what I said, in a previous post, that Brandon kind of talked about. Yeah, it may seem wierd to them, but I guess, not everyone likes the spiritual side of things. Sight, and vision are two different things. Sight is what we lack, because it's physical. Vision is mental/spiritual. "Where do you see yourself, 40 years from now?" That's vision! For that matter, I know many sightlings, who are visually impaired! Blessings, Joshua On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Josh, > Think about your argument. Those people were famous yes, but they were also > > blind and often blind from birth. I believe those people had no usable > vision. So they are blind. > If they said they were visually impaired, they were lying as they had no > usable sight. > But for many legally blind people, we actually do have > vision though. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 11:06 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > I agree with your points here. > I'd say though, it's sad that famous people have tried to do it, and > have failed, miserably. > I thought, that the following blind musicians did a good job of making > it coool, as you put it. > #1. Ray Charles. > #2. Stevie Wonder > #3. The Blind Boys of Alabama, and the Five Blind Boys of Mississippi, > (yes, I included Gospel groups.) > #4. Ronnie Milsap, (he needs to put out something new!) > Also, who could forget the late Doc Watson? > These guys are my role models, that I look to, because they didn't let > blindness stop them! > I'm also proud of Parnelle Diggs, for doing what no other blind person > has tried to do, or at least, not in Arkansas! > He ran for congress! > I hope he wins, BTW. > That way, he can be that someone famous, that we're hoping for! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello Josh, >> We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community >> calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" >> is >> weird unfortunately. >> I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when >> selling >> something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who >> you're selling to. >> A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I >> wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to >> >> a >> >> strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm >> trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night." >> It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to >> assimilate >> >> into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world. >> I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest >> mountain >> >> tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy >> >> up >> >> our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're >> infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off >> onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst >> disability >> imaginable. >> I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this >> time. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point. >> I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!" >> Sight, and vision are two different things. >> Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes. >> Vision, is mental/spiritual. >> The NFB has lots of vision! >> If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility. >> We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse? >>> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that >>> you're >>> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why >>> should >>> you tell them you're blind? >>> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually >>> impaired, but I think that's against the law. >>> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell >>> yourself >>> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually >>> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad >>> vision, >>> >>> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually >>> impaired, and it's not TOB). >>> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too >>> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see. >>> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the >>> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be >>> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible >>> products >>> >>> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs. >>> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made >>> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there >>> is >>> >>> an >>> >>> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring >>> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a >>> disability. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Wasif, Zunaira >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe the only >>> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better option I >>> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>> change. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>> This >>> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >>> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>> opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>> pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>> information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>> I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>> ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>> have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>> state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>> exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>> calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >>> worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >>> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>> if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>> what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>> workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>> so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>> post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>> the federal government, providing goods and services through >>> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>> to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>> wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>> contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>> completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>> realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>> I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>> currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>> changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>> government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>> support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >>> a >>> il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >>> ot >>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gm >>> ail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40h >>> otma >>> il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>> 0eart >>> hlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydud >>> e%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif >>> %40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 13 19:48:36 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:48:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Vision, Vs Sight Message-ID: We've been talking about this for the past 2 days, so this warrants its own thread. I have noticed, that companies are now accepting the term, "Sight Impaired," instead of "Visually impaired." I can say this, because there are things, that Mr Andrews has sent to the list, from different companies, and they said "sight impaired, instead of visually impaired. I hope, in the next 4/5 years, that "Sight Impaired," would be the normal term, that is used. Blessings, Joshua From dandrews at visi.com Wed Jun 13 19:56:00 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:56:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Kurzweil K1000 Version 13 Released Message-ID: <4FD8F050.9030006@visi.com> *From:*Kurzweil Educational Systems [mailto:clt-marketing at cambiumlearning.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:04 AM *Subject:* Kurzweil 1000 Version 13 Now Available If you are unable to see the message below, click here to view . Version 13 of Kurzweil 1000 is now available *Kurzweil Educational Systems Introduces Kurzweil 1000 Version 13!* We are pleased to announce the release of Kurzweil 1000^^(TM) Version 13. Kurzweil 1000 reads text aloud delivering natural-sounding voices and quick, easy access to virtually any content for people who are blind or visually impaired. Learn more on our web site or attend one of our free webinars conducted by Stephen Baum, Vice President, Engineering, on June 14 at 2:00 PM ET or June 20 at 10:00 AM ET. New features in Kurzweil 1000 Version 13 include: * Camera support for HoverCam^® , in addition to ABiSee's Zoom-Ex and Eye-Pal. * ePub^® support that allows reading of ePub documents and the ability to write ePub documents that can be read on portable devices, such as an iPhone. * Support for Microsoft^® Speech Platform, giving users access to more than a dozen additional text-to-speech voices in a variety of languages. * The ability to choose the audio output device for a selected voice. * OCR updates to ABBYY^® FineReader^® 10 and ScanSoft 18 which increases accuracy when recognizing documents and reduces time spent fixing errors in recognition. For a limited time, buy Kurzweil 1000 Version 13 for only $895 -- $100 off the retail price of $995. Offer good until August 31, 2012 through the Kurzweil Educational Systems web store only ! Offer limited to US residents only. If you already own Kurzweil 1000, upgrade now for $125 . Download a free 30 day trial of Kurzweil 1000 Version 13. For personal assistance, contact sales . Contact Us | Blog | Unsubscribe *Share:* Facebook Twitter LinkedIn © Cambium Learning Cambium Learning Technologies | 24 Prime Parkway, Suite 303 Natick, MA 01760 | 800.547.6747 -- Follow me on Twitter @dandrews920 From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 17:00:13 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:00:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9677C0E37BCE4B7E85977F9A7EF904E9@OwnerPC> Bill, There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. However, that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We have more access too because you can customize not only the applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do not know how much customization you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only works with products produced by Apple. The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from the beginning. Too often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer may have scripts produced for you to access their software. Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as of 2007 make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person can skim the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on the start menu as we do now. Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider viriety of everyday and specialty programs. Bill On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: > It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web > cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is > a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may > apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple > conversion was just a thought. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of David Andrews > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > > Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently cover > web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. > > Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be > applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come > close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make > employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. > > Dave > > At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites violate > >>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. > >>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were > enforced. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >>not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >>schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe >>we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible > programs? >>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles > >>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>the only >>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the >>ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients >>every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is > >>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is > discriminatory! >>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but > >>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >>even interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen >>every day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >>service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working >>with the Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because >>they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the >>Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job. My >>question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee > has the skills? >>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this > >>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an > effective way of >>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>option I >>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>change. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could >>argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because > >>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain > quota. >>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>This >>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Ashley, >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy > to set that straight. >>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble > >>opinion. >> Take it or leave it, >>Kirt >> >>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Elizabeth, >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>are >> >> paid >> >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > >>pay. I >> >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable > >>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the > >>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>information that was cited in the article itself. >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>I am >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>ed-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states > >>have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > >>exactly >> >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>calculated >> >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory > >>worker or the >> >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, >>but if >> >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >> of paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 > >>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>workers with disabilities >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >> >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>is so >> >> high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >> attention >> >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >> and >> >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >> workers >> >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized > >>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>to create employment opportunities >> >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >> management of >> >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the > >>wage to give them >> >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>contracting should have to >> >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that > >>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>completely correct. The boycott of Good >> >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >> us >> >> to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>realistically going to >> >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>I >> >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>currently makes $1.50 an >> >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee > >>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >> This would represent an annual cost increase >> >> of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>changed is bogus and cynical. >> As I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>government pays. >> And, as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>support the >> >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > >>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >> Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com -- Bill Casson University of New Mexico M.S. Computer Science Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. (505) 695-1374 cassonw at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 20:44:21 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:44:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <001401cd4996$2f85eac0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com><16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC><002b01cd477a$b777db00$1400ba43@BRIAN><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA3@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net><10EC810A1D4B4455B3FBFA4FD3B2DC19@OwnerPC> <001401cd4996$2f85eac0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <6F541802B7404A13916FD027E6A65E68@OwnerPC> Peter, as usual you miss my point. Did you even go to college like we have? I mean I'm putting cogent arguments together. If you held a job ever, you know a competetive job takes social skills and ability to tend to your personal needs. You will not have an employer take you to the bathroom or do much for you. If you dress inappropriately or act socially inappropriately, your employer will also fire you. There is an expectation you can act like an adult when you go to work in an office. In a factory, well I did not work in one, but I've heard you are assigned a certain amount of products to make or you do a certain part of the job on an assembly line. You still have to work at a certain pace. I hope you're right that other disabled people get training to move up the ladder or out of the workshop if they can. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Peter Donahue Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:56 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hello Ashley and everyone, Keep in mind that the legislation if passed would phase out subminamum wages over a three-year period giving workshops plenty of time to develop new and innovative programs to provide training to the most profoundly disabled. Many of these people ended up in good Will and other workshops due to their not having access to the same kind of training available to the blind. The fact that one does not have good social skills or cannot attend to their personal needs has nothing to do with the payment of subminamum wages to disabled workers. These concerns need to be addressed differently. There are also individuals with Servant's Syndrome who when given the right job or if they enter the right career can succeed beyond imagination. There are cases of individuals who cannot attend to their personal needs but put them in a factory setting, at a piano, or whatever you can name they're the best at their craft. We need to avoid introducing one's level of independence, personal, and social skills in to the issue of whether one should be paid a minimum wage or not. Linda may not be able to dress herself but can play Beethoven as if she was Beethoven himself and should be given a musician's wage and the spotlight at Carnegie Hall. For too long these workshops have been used as "Dumping grounds" for the seemingly unemployable. This era in our nation's history needs to come to an end. I hope we all get behind the Good Will boycott and other efforts to bring the payment of subminamum wages to disabled workers to an end. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Zunaira, Oh, saying they shouldn't be hired sounds a bit harsh. Workshops and similar settings do serve a valuable purpose since they produce products for the government and military. I don't think disabled people should have to work there, but it should be an option for them. Its doing something and they get out of the house. I mean, its more productive than say sitting at home or going to an adult day care center. Some people cannot work competetively, and that is okay. You do what you can. I've seen people with lots of limitations in school and around the area. Some of them are in wheelchairs with speech problems from cerebral pulsy. Others are autistic and cannot talk or talk limitedly. Others just have cognitive delays that prevent their brain from processing input including speech in a regular speed. It takes a lot to work competetively, not only making accomodations to access text material, but also you have to have some social skills, dress professionally, and yes keep up with deadlines. If one area is lacking, it could cause problems working and holding a competetive job. I believe in integrated settings when possible. I don't think a blind person need work at Good will. But I'm sure other disabled people need or want that setting. As for the wage thing, I have mixed feelings. I do see the discrimination side, but on the other hand, why pay them a regular wage when they are not performing a competetive job and as I said before, many of them have guardians that handle their money anyway since they cannot do it themselves. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Ashley- I see where you are coming from. If someone can't work competitively then why should they be paid competitively? The answer is that if they can't work competitively, they shouldn't be hired. The truth is that many people can work competitively and employers need to realize that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Hatgelakas Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Please email me the press release about Goodwill to brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > Hi all, > Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the > fact that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. > Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. > > Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large > nonprofits do it. > Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; > most press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" > or something like it, not people with disabilities. > Our focus is usually on blind people. > Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. > Where is the evidence? > I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. > > Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum > wage go away. > I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum wage. > Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses > and are cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to > think about. > Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and > handle it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if > they really need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that > of other workers. > > I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised > we still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news > for you. > There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even > the legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see > the exemptions and loopholes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But I > have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think they mean > a boycott in the buying and selling senses. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very many > people who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will > do the trick. > Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations telling > them of the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that > working without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point > home, point out that this under minimum wage is a way for the United > States to keep a handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way > for under minimum wage to be instituted back in for everyone else. The > precedent is there, so everyone needs to overturn this law so no one > anywhere in the United States can ever be paid under minimum wage > again. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to > this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put > pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as > well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually > end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum > wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and > including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted > population. If potential employers see this change happening, those > employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that > blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more > change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope > that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled > workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage > policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might > follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within > Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change > simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries > adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so that would help > with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.? > �MARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a > benefit to boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill > Industries would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair > wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to > adopt a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the > approach that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the > decisions in individual locations. I do understand the point of > leading local business leaders to undergo philosophical change and > choose to pay their workers fair wages, but which item is the top > priority: education of individuals or > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.? > �MARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brian.hatgelakas%40verizon.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kea.anderson at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 20:55:13 2012 From: kea.anderson at gmail.com (Karen Anderson) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:55:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <6F541802B7404A13916FD027E6A65E68@OwnerPC> References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com><16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC><002b01cd477a$b777db00$1400ba43@BRIAN><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA3@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net><10EC810A1D4B4455B3FBFA4FD3B2DC19@OwnerPC> <001401cd4996$2f85eac0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <6F541802B7404A13916FD027E6A65E68@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4fd8fe33.067ab60a.1d1c.7a36@mx.google.com> Hi all, This has been a very interesting thread to follow, and everyone has been raising some good points. while intelligent discourse, discussion, = and debate are strongly encouraged on this list, I'd like to gently remind = you all that personal attacks and criticisms are not. Let's all be careful = how we make our points to each other and remember civility is key.=20 Thanks, Karen -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 3:44 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Peter, as usual you miss my point. Did you even go to college like we have? I = mean=20 I'm putting cogent arguments together. If you held a job ever, you know a competetive job takes social skills = and ability to tend to your personal needs. You will not have an employer = take=20 you to the bathroom or do much for you. If you dress inappropriately or = act=20 socially inappropriately, your employer will also fire you. There is an=20 expectation you can act like an adult when you go to work in an office. = In a=20 factory, well I did not work in one, but I've heard you are assigned a=20 certain amount of products to make or you do a certain part of the job = on an=20 assembly line. You still have to work at a certain pace. I hope you're right that other disabled people get training to move up = the=20 ladder or out of the workshop if they can. Ashley -----Original Message-----=20 From: Peter Donahue Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:56 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Hello Ashley and everyone, Keep in mind that the legislation if passed would phase out = subminamum wages over a three-year period giving workshops plenty of time to = develop new and innovative programs to provide training to the most profoundly disabled. Many of these people ended up in good Will and other workshops = due to their not having access to the same kind of training available to the blind. The fact that one does not have good social skills or cannot attend = to their personal needs has nothing to do with the payment of subminamum = wages to disabled workers. These concerns need to be addressed differently. = There are also individuals with Servant's Syndrome who when given the right = job or if they enter the right career can succeed beyond imagination. There = are cases of individuals who cannot attend to their personal needs but put = them in a factory setting, at a piano, or whatever you can name they're the = best at their craft. We need to avoid introducing one's level of = independence, personal, and social skills in to the issue of whether one should be = paid a minimum wage or not. Linda may not be able to dress herself but can play Beethoven as if she was Beethoven himself and should be given a = musician's wage and the spotlight at Carnegie Hall. For too long these workshops have been used as "Dumping grounds" for = the seemingly unemployable. This era in our nation's history needs to come = to an end. I hope we all get behind the Good Will boycott and other efforts to bring the payment of subminamum wages to disabled workers to an end. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Zunaira, Oh, saying they shouldn't be hired sounds a bit harsh. Workshops and = similar settings do serve a valuable purpose since they produce products for the government and military. I don't think disabled people should have to = work there, but it should be an option for them. Its doing something and they = get out of the house. I mean, its more productive than say sitting at home = or going to an adult day care center. Some people cannot work competetively, and that is okay. You do what you can. I've seen people with lots of limitations in school and around the area. Some of them are in wheelchairs with speech problems from cerebral pulsy. Others are autistic and cannot talk or talk limitedly. Others = just have cognitive delays that prevent their brain from processing input including speech in a regular speed. It takes a lot to work competetively, not only making accomodations to access text material, but also you have to have some social skills, = dress professionally, and yes keep up with deadlines. If one area is lacking, = it could cause problems working and holding a competetive job. I believe in integrated settings when possible. I don't think a blind = person need work at Good will. But I'm sure other disabled people need or want that setting. As for the wage thing, I have mixed feelings. I do see the discrimination side, but = on the other hand, why pay them a regular wage when they are not performing = a competetive job and as I said before, many of them have guardians that handle their money anyway since they cannot do it themselves. Ashley -----Original Message-----=20 From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Ashley- I see where you are coming from. If someone can't work competitively = then why should they be paid competitively? The answer is that if they can't work competitively, they shouldn't be hired. The truth is that many = people can work competitively and employers need to realize that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On = Behalf Of Brian Hatgelakas Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Please email me the press release about Goodwill to brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > Hi all, > Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the > fact that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a = boycott. > Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. > > Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large > nonprofits do it. > Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; > most press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" > or something like it, not people with disabilities. > Our focus is usually on blind people. > Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. > Where is the evidence? > I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. > > Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum > wage go away. > I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum = wage. > Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses > and are cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to > think about. > Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and > handle it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if > they really need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that > of other workers. > > I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised > we still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news > for you. > There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even > the legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see > the exemptions and loopholes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But I > have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think they mean > a boycott in the buying and selling senses. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very many > people who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will > do the trick. > Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations telling > them of the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that > working without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point > home, point out that this under minimum wage is a way for the United > States to keep a handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way > for under minimum wage to be instituted back in for everyone else. The > precedent is there, so everyone needs to overturn this law so no one > anywhere in the United States can ever be paid under minimum wage > again. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to > this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put > pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as > well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually > end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum > wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and > including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted > population. If potential employers see this change happening, those > employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that > blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more > change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope > that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled > workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage > policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might > follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within > Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change > simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries > adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so that would help > with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > =93Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens = can > change the world; indeed, it=92s the only thing that ever has.? > =97MARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a > benefit to boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill > Industries would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair > wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to > adopt a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the > approach that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the > decisions in individual locations. I do understand the point of > leading local business leaders to undergo philosophical change and > choose to pay their workers fair wages, but which item is the top > priority: education of individuals or > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > =93Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens = can > change the world; indeed, it=92s the only thing that ever has.? > =97MARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs- l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- ---- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs- l_nfbnet.org/brian.hatgelakas%40verizon.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthli= nk. net -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- ---- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.c= om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for=20 nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthli= nk. net=20 From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 20:56:58 2012 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:56:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace In-Reply-To: <9677C0E37BCE4B7E85977F9A7EF904E9@OwnerPC> References: <9677C0E37BCE4B7E85977F9A7EF904E9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or window > eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We have more > access too because you can customize not only the applications but you can > customize your screen reader settings. I do not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only works > with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise awareness so > software makers build accessibility in the software from the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the old > Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as I > spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system looks > more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on the start > menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that said, I > think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility to access a > wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently cover >> web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >>>not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >>>schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe >>>we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the >>>ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients >>>every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >>>even interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen >>>every day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >>>service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working >>>with the Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because >>>they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the >>>Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job. My >>>question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could >>>argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, >>>but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 20:37:25 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:37:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA7@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com><16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC><002b01cd477a$b777db00$1400ba43@BRIAN><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA3@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net><10EC810A1D4B4455B3FBFA4FD3B2DC19@OwnerPC> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA7@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <08BB24F2718E474ABAD7AD6B398D1222@OwnerPC> good point. Its hard to put a value on work. Some people may be able to handle only factory work. I also wondered just who is exempt from minimum wage standards. I know certain jobs are under FLSA, fair labor standards Act. But don't know which ones. Not all disabled employees in factory jobs fall within sub minimum wage. So just who is exempt and why is a good question. Maybe I'll research that. -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:46 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Someone made the point earlier that certain jobs are exempt from the minimum wage standard. I wonder why those jobs are exempt. I see what you are saying Ashley in regards to some employees not being able to work competitively. I guess the solution may lie in classifying jobs according to whether or not they fall with in the exempt category. That is a slippery slope however. I would rather air on the side of caution and just say that all jobs are valuable and no job should be exempt from the minimum wage standard. An employee that can't work competitively in a customer service job should not be hired doing customer service. They definitely shouldn't be hired in that capacity and paid less than their peers. If that person's aptitudes are better suited to factory work then they should do that and should be paid at least minimum wage. Even piece work should be treated as valuable competitive employment in my opinion and should not be exempt from the minimum wage standard. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 1:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Zunaira, Oh, saying they shouldn't be hired sounds a bit harsh. Workshops and similar settings do serve a valuable purpose since they produce products for the government and military. I don't think disabled people should have to work there, but it should be an option for them. Its doing something and they get out of the house. I mean, its more productive than say sitting at home or going to an adult day care center. Some people cannot work competetively, and that is okay. You do what you can. I've seen people with lots of limitations in school and around the area. Some of them are in wheelchairs with speech problems from cerebral pulsy. Others are autistic and cannot talk or talk limitedly. Others just have cognitive delays that prevent their brain from processing input including speech in a regular speed. It takes a lot to work competetively, not only making accomodations to access text material, but also you have to have some social skills, dress professionally, and yes keep up with deadlines. If one area is lacking, it could cause problems working and holding a competetive job. I believe in integrated settings when possible. I don't think a blind person need work at Good will. But I'm sure other disabled people need or want that setting. As for the wage thing, I have mixed feelings. I do see the discrimination side, but on the other hand, why pay them a regular wage when they are not performing a competetive job and as I said before, many of them have guardians that handle their money anyway since they cannot do it themselves. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Ashley- I see where you are coming from. If someone can't work competitively then why should they be paid competitively? The answer is that if they can't work competitively, they shouldn't be hired. The truth is that many people can work competitively and employers need to realize that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Hatgelakas Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Please email me the press release about Goodwill to brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > Hi all, > Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the > fact that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. > Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. > > Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large > nonprofits do it. > Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; > most press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" > or something like it, not people with disabilities. > Our focus is usually on blind people. > Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. > Where is the evidence? > I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. > > Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum > wage go away. > I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum wage. > Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses > and are cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to > think about. > Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and > handle it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if > they really need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that > of other workers. > > I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised > we still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news > for you. > There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even > the legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see > the exemptions and loopholes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But I > have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think they mean > a boycott in the buying and selling senses. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, > I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very many > people who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will > do the trick. > Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations telling > them of the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that > working without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point > home, point out that this under minimum wage is a way for the United > States to keep a handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way > for under minimum wage to be instituted back in for everyone else. The > precedent is there, so everyone needs to overturn this law so no one > anywhere in the United States can ever be paid under minimum wage > again. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to > this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put > pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as > well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually > end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum > wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and > including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted > population. If potential employers see this change happening, those > employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that > blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more > change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope > that the NFB does this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Justin, > > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted > universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled > workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage > policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might > follow their lead. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Justin Salisbury To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" 23:19:15 +0000 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within > Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change > simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries > adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so that would help > with the education, too. > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.? > �MARGARET MEAD > ________________________________________ > From: Justin Salisbury > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Goodwill Boycott > > Arielle, Gabe, and all: > > I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage > policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a > benefit to boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill > Industries would create a centralized > (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair > wages? > > I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to > adopt a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the > approach that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the > decisions in individual locations. I do understand the point of > leading local business leaders to undergo philosophical change and > choose to pay their workers fair wages, but which item is the top > priority: education of individuals or > achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I > want to hear opinions on it. > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.? > �MARGARET MEAD > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb > iggs%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brian.hatgelakas%40verizon.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From gpaikens at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 21:29:43 2012 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:29:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace In-Reply-To: <9677C0E37BCE4B7E85977F9A7EF904E9@OwnerPC> References: <9677C0E37BCE4B7E85977F9A7EF904E9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <2967659B-ED13-42E1-8CC7-9A2E5AED71D1@gmail.com> The idea that Voiceover only works with applications developed by apple is false. There are many third party apps that are perfectly accessible with voiceover. I use third party apps like Skype, Abby Fine Reader (OCR), To-do list, Adium (chat client), Piano Pub (Pandora client), and others all the time. There are also apps that Voiceover does not work well with, such as MS Office, Open Office, etc. VO is definitely customizable, especially since OS 10.7 came out last summer. I'm not a hard core mac guy. I honestly only switched because in an unfortunate series of circumstances, I found myself between VR cases and I needed a laptop to start school. The Mac +VO option was far more affordable than the PC + Jaws option. There was a lot of learning and relearning I had to do when I first started and for a while I had my doubts. But now I feel like mac is a perfectly good alternative to windows + JAWS, especially for those purchasing their own equipment. I also love Jaws. During student teaching this last semester I had the opportunity to sit down with Jaws 13 and I am impressed with the new features they have added. Windows seems in general more accessible then when I last used it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that both systems are different but useful. In terms of overall access, Jaws may be better. But in terms of total system integration and cost, it certainly isn't. I think Apple's commitment to universal design is excellent, and I'm not sure why people in the blind community take issue with it. Don't we want affordable access? I understand that sometimes mac users can be obnoxious and suffer from a slight superiority complex, but don't let that distract you from the good things about voiceover. . -Greg On Jun 13, 2012, at 12:00 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. However, that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We have more access too because you can customize not only the applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do not know how much customization you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from the beginning. Too often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer may have scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as of 2007 make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person can skim the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently cover >> web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>> I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>> employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>> accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>> it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>> clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>> with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>> it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites violate >> >>> the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>> he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>> All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>> for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >>> not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >>> schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe >>> we should institute a program where we payed them to install acessible >> programs? >>> I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >> >>> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>> the only >>> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the >>> ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients >>> every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is >> >>> running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>> fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >> >>> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >>> even interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen >>> every day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >>> service job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working >>> with the Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because >>> they want their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the >>> Lighthouse that the blind person has the skills for the job. My >>> question is, how do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>> to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>> government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>> Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>> taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this >> >>> any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>> perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an >> effective way of >>> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>> option I >>> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>> change. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>> rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could >>> argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because >> >>> we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>> This >>> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>> you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>> boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>> employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national policy >> to set that straight. >>> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >> >>> opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>> are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >> >>> pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >> >>> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >> >>> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>> information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>> I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>> recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>> ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >> >>> have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>> state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>> these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >> >>> exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>> calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory >> >>> worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>> the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, >>> but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >> >>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>> what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>> workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>> is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>> post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >> >>> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>> the federal government, providing goods and services through >>> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>> to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >> >>> wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>> contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>> rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that >> >>> it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>> have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>> completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>> realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>> I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>> currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >> >>> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>> employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>> changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>> government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>> support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >> >>> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 21:35:20 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:35:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Vision, Vs. Sight Message-ID: <003701cd49ac$6f44b9f0$4dce2dd0$@gmail.com> Stevie Wonder said, "just because you are blind, does not mean you lack vision." I agree with Stevie Wonder. I am blind, legally blind indeed since I can see only with a corner of my right eye and almost nothing with my left eye. But yet I have so much vision, the vision that is expressed metaphorically, not physically. Sight is what I lack, or almost. So yes, it is different by saying blind over visually impaired. Even worse, when people call us, "vision impaired". That means, people who have a barrier or an impairment that prevents someone from having a dream or illusion and there are bars stuck in their way always. Blind is what I am and it is my physical nuisance. It is part of what I am and no one can modify it. I am blind but I can do almost anything and everything! No, not only in the world of music, which I am talented in. I am actually going after a college degree and getting a full time job and fighting against the discrimination of employers by doing so. Just my 2 cents. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Vision, Vs Sight We've been talking about this for the past 2 days, so this warrants its own thread. I have noticed, that companies are now accepting the term, "Sight Impaired," instead of "Visually impaired." I can say this, because there are things, that Mr Andrews has sent to the list, from different companies, and they said "sight impaired, instead of visually impaired. I hope, in the next 4/5 years, that "Sight Impaired," would be the normal term, that is used. Blessings, Joshua _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 13 21:43:49 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:43:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Vision, Vs. Sight In-Reply-To: <003701cd49ac$6f44b9f0$4dce2dd0$@gmail.com> References: <003701cd49ac$6f44b9f0$4dce2dd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Same here! Good post! Blessings, Joshua On 6/13/12, Humberto Avila wrote: > Stevie Wonder said, "just because you are blind, does not mean you lack > vision." I agree with Stevie Wonder. I am blind, legally blind indeed since > I can see only with a corner of my right eye and almost nothing with my > left > eye. But yet I have so much vision, the vision that is expressed > metaphorically, not physically. Sight is what I lack, or almost. So yes, it > is different by saying blind over visually impaired. Even worse, when > people > call us, "vision impaired". That means, people who have a barrier or an > impairment that prevents someone from having a dream or illusion and there > are bars stuck in their way always. Blind is what I am and it is my > physical > nuisance. It is part of what I am and no one can modify it. I am blind but > I > can do almost anything and everything! No, not only in the world of music, > which I am talented in. I am actually going after a college degree and > getting a full time job and fighting against the discrimination of > employers > by doing so. Just my 2 cents. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:49 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Vision, Vs Sight > > We've been talking about this for the past 2 days, so this warrants > its own thread. > I have noticed, that companies are now accepting the term, "Sight > Impaired," instead of "Visually impaired." > I can say this, because there are things, that Mr Andrews has sent to > the list, from different companies, and they said "sight impaired, > instead of visually impaired. > I hope, in the next 4/5 years, that "Sight Impaired," would be the > normal term, that is used. > Blessings, Joshua > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 22:08:45 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:08:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind vs. Visually Impaired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The only difference I conceive between totally blind & low vision is the way what we learn. I'm low vision but I still use my eyes to read. We r all human beings what difference does it make if you're totally blind? Deb Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 On Jun 12, 2012 9:53 PM, "Joshua Lester" wrote: > Great post, as always! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/12/12, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi all, > > Brandon-undoubtedly you've stumbled upon an issue that has been > > contentious in the blind community at times, because labels have > > meaning and words have power. The terms "blind" and "visually > > impaired" have many different connotations, some desirable and some > > not so much. I want to present my personal views and reactions to > > these two terms, and explain why I now use "blind" to describe any > > person who uses nonvisual techniques to observe and interact with > > their world. > > I was born with only light perception, so I am essentially totally > > blind (if people ask, I sometimes say I am "99% blind" and my tiny bit > > of usable vision is only functional in a few select situations). > > Because of this, I grew up referring to myself as blind and never gave > > it a second thought. However, I had some friends growing up who were > > in that grey area where they had enough vision to get by without > > blindness techniques but who still qualified for blindness services > > (TVI's etc.) My friends referred to themselves as visually impaired > > and I thought that label was totally harmless and legitimate as a way > > of differentiating between totally blind folks like me and folks who > > had usable vision. > > Over the past few years I have stopped using "visually impaired" for > > two main reasons. First, the term "visually impaired" includes the > > word "impaired" which literally means defective or inferior. The word > > blind, while it has some bad historical connotations, does not > > literally mean inferiority or defect. It simply means unable to see, > > but it can be interpreted in many different ways. I choose to use the > > word "blind" and to interpret it in a positive way rather than using a > > term that focuses attention on what is broken. My friends who have > > usable vision are not broken or "impaired" any more or less than I am; > > they are people who, like me, happen to observe and interact with > > their world, at least somewhat, in nonvisual ways. Given the chance, I > > would rather not think of myself as broken or defective either, which > > is why I continue to call myself blind. I know that in some sighted > > people's eyes (not all, but some) the word "blind" still means > > "broken" but I feel that these people would see me as broken even if I > > called myself visually impaired instead. Words have power, and I would > > rather create my own definition for the word "blind". > > Second, over the years I have talked with several people who have > > usable vision about their experiences with negotiating their > > identities. I have heard over and over again from people who found > > peace, resolution, and even joy when they began to refer to themselves > > as blind, use blindness techniques and become full members of the > > blind community. Before calling themselves blind, these folks (and > > some of you on this list have experienced this too, and can elaborate) > > often tried to pass as sighted, but became frustrated or depressed > > when this attempt to pass wasn't completely effective. Hiding > > blindness has its advantages, but when one's vision is simply not good > > enough to make it possible without sacrificing competence (i.e. > > running into things, falling, not being able to read, etc.) passing > > can become more of a burden than a privilege. Calling oneself blind > > and developing an identity as blind can be very liberating, as again, > > it pulls focus away from the broken vision and toward the effective > > nonvisual methods of observing and interacting. So I call my friends > > blind rather than visually impaired because I want to respect their > > blind identities and the peace and resolve that comes with them. > > Again, while I have not done a study on this (I might, sometime!) I > > don't think sighted people really understand the nuances between blind > > and visually impaired. Some sighted folks think of beggars, depression > > and darkness when you say blind; however, I'd bet they'd still think > > of those things if you used the term visually impaired, > > sight-impaired, sightless, optically challenged or any other term that > > really means "blind" in fancier language. And there are other sighted > > folks who have no mental associations, good or bad, with the word > > blind. These folks can learn from our example that "blind" is neither > > good nor bad, but simply means you observe and interact with your > > world using means other than vision. My sighted boyfriend, who had no > > experience with blindness before me, sometimes teases me by calling me > > "blindie" and that is not meant as an insult. In fact, he knows that I > > have several dear friends I jokingly refer to as "blindies" and so the > > word has mildly positive connotations for me, and for him. > > The issue of whether or not to tell an employer you are blind, > > visually impaired or whatever is a whole separate thing. But I would > > argue that if using a blindness technique like Braille, JAWS or a > > cane/dog would allow you to perform the job better, it's worth the > > risk to tell your employer you are blind and use these techniques on > > the job. It's much better than floundering around without blindness > > techniques and eventually getting fired for poor performance. > > Arielle > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 22:18:11 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:18:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs Convention Call. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 On Jun 13, 2012 10:13 AM, "Darian Smith" wrote: > Introducing the Nabs Membership call for June: "It's All About Convention > 2012!" > Whether you have been to the Convention of the national Federation > of the Blind before or this year will be your first time going, come > and hear all about what makes convention fun, informative and an > experience you will most likely never forget! Join us as we hear > from Sean Whalen,NABS president, who will be on hand to give you an > overview of what events the National Association of Blind Students > have planned and how you can help. Also Hear From Meleah Jensen, > coordinator of the youth track activities at convention, and learn > about the special events that are just for you, the high school and > under crowd. Bring your convention experiences, and questions! > > When: Sunday, June 17, 7:15 PM Eastern. > Where: Conference call: (712) 775-7100, passcode 257963. > > Your Nabs Membership Committee > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 22:19:37 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:19:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] kurswald 1000 Dallas Message-ID: Does anyone know how to register for the dinner it says u have to register for something else first. This is the kurswald 1000 dinner TIA Deb Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 On Jun 13, 2012 10:13 AM, "Darian Smith" wrote: > Introducing the Nabs Membership call for June: "It's All About Convention > 2012!" > Whether you have been to the Convention of the national Federation > of the Blind before or this year will be your first time going, come > and hear all about what makes convention fun, informative and an > experience you will most likely never forget! Join us as we hear > from Sean Whalen,NABS president, who will be on hand to give you an > overview of what events the National Association of Blind Students > have planned and how you can help. Also Hear From Meleah Jensen, > coordinator of the youth track activities at convention, and learn > about the special events that are just for you, the high school and > under crowd. Bring your convention experiences, and questions! > > When: Sunday, June 17, 7:15 PM Eastern. > Where: Conference call: (712) 775-7100, passcode 257963. > > Your Nabs Membership Committee > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 22:46:57 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:46:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] FW: We Came Up a Little Short In-Reply-To: <008f01cd49b5$cee477c0$6cad6740$@panix.com> References: <008f01cd49b5$cee477c0$6cad6740$@panix.com> Message-ID: <000001cd49b6$70a10a10$51e31e30$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike Freeman Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 3:42 PM To: nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org Subject: [nfbwatlk] FW: We Came Up a Little Short -----Original Message----- From: nfbaffiliatepresidents-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbaffiliatepresidents-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Parnell Diggs Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:21 PM To: 'NFB Affiliate Presidents List' Subject: [NFBAffiliatePresidents] We Came Up a Little Short Dear Colleagues: I was lots of people's second choice, but not enough people's first choice this time, and that presents a problem when you can only cast one vote. Nevertheless, the local and state Democrats like me and want me to remain in politics. I am reminded of a guy by the name of Bill Clinton, who lost the first time out when he ran for Congress and was elected President eighteen years later. Thanks for all of your thoughts and prayers, financial support, good karma, well-wishes, and everything else. The Federation was actually part of a debate question in a televised debate last week. They wanted to know how much time I would spend on blindness stuff in Congress given that I've been the President of the NFB of SC for twelve years. It was sort of a silly question, but I was glad they asked it because I got to talk about the Federation in a Congressional Debate on TV. See you in Dallas! ------------------------- Parnell Diggs, President National Federation of the Blind of South Carolina _______________________________________________ NFBAffiliatePresidents mailing list NFBAffiliatePresidents at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbaffiliatepresidents_nfbnet.org _______________________________________________ nfbwatlk mailing list nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbwatlk: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%4 0gmail.com From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 03:02:38 2012 From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] kurswald 1000 Dallas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1339642958.24015.YahooMailClassic@web162005.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I am wondering about the same thing. Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller --- On Wed, 6/13/12, Deb Mendelsohn wrote: > From: Deb Mendelsohn > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] kurswald 1000 Dallas > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2012, 5:19 PM > Does anyone know how to register for > the dinner it says u have to register > for something else first.  This is the kurswald 1000 > dinner > TIA > Deb > Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 > On Jun 13, 2012 10:13 AM, "Darian Smith" > wrote: > > > Introducing the Nabs Membership call for June: "It's > All About Convention > > 2012!" > >    Whether you have been to the Convention of > the national Federation > > of the Blind before or this year will be your first > time going, come > > and hear all about what makes convention fun, > informative and an > > experience you will most likely never forget!  > Join us as we hear > > from  Sean Whalen,NABS president,  who will > be on hand to give you an > > overview of  what events the National Association > of Blind Students > > have planned and how you can help. Also Hear From > Meleah Jensen, > > coordinator of  the youth track activities at > convention, and  learn > > about the special events that are  just for you, > the high school and > > under crowd.      Bring your convention > experiences, and questions! > > > > When: Sunday, June 17, 7:15 PM Eastern. > > Where: Conference call: (712) 775-7100, passcode > 257963. > > > > Your Nabs Membership Committee > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 06:04:00 2012 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (nabs.president at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 02:04:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Elections Sunday, July 1, 2012 Message-ID: <033901cd49f3$7eb40520$7c1c0f60$@gmail.com> Good evening to each of you, As you are most likely aware, the NABS business meeting is scheduled to take place on Sunday, July 1 at 7:00pm at the NFB National Convention in Dallas Texas. An announcement with more details on the meeting, as well as a separate message with the meeting agenda, will be posted and circulated in the coming days, but tonight I want to write to the list to notify you all that the following positions will be up for election at this year's meeting: President, 2nd Vice President, Secretary, Board Member 2 and Board Member 4. I just wanted to write to share this information, as well as a little bit about what is involved in serving on the NABS board, with anybody out there who has considered running. Serving on the NABS board is an excellent way to contribute to the furtherance of the work of the Federation, build valuable leadership skills, and, indeed, even have some fun along the way. Members of the NABS board take a lead role in determining the direction of our division of the NFB, and serve in leadership roles on NABS' various committees. Of course, individuals from off the board are sought out and encouraged to help in all aspects of our work, but board members are expected to be the backbone of the structure and organizers of our various events and initiatives. I have found my time on the NABS board extremely rewarding, and have seen the impact that the work of NABS and the NFB can and does have on blind students across the country. The opportunity to serve in a leadership capacity has been enjoyable, and has allowed me to have an impact on issues that I care about. Virtually all individuals I know who have held positions on the board in recent years feel the same way. While the only two hard and fast eligibility criteria for service on the NABS Board are that one be a. blind, and b. a student, I would strongly suggest that anybody considering running for a position ask him or herself the following: Am I prepared to dedicate a portion of my time and efforts to doing meaningful work on behalf of the NFB and blind students? Do I have ideas, attributes and skills that I think would help move NABS and the NFB in a positive direction? Am I passionate about improving the status quo for the blind and reaching out to blind students with our positive message on blindness? If this sounds like you, NABS needs you! I and the entire board encourage anybody with the drive, passion, and dedication to consider running for a spot on the board. Of course, nobody who intends to run is under any obligation whatsoever to communicate their intentions to anybody, and absolutely any blind student is free to run. The current board just thought it would be beneficial to send out a message to let folks know what work on the board is all about. There are lots of projects we work on, and, on the board or off, your help is always appreciated. Common tasks undertaken include: . Event planning . Fundraising . Webmaster duties . Writing . Editing . Membership recruitment . Traveling to states to work with state student divisions . Anything fresh and exciting you can think to bring to the table If a board position interests you and you are so inclined, please consider reaching out to me or any other member of the board to talk about it. And, if you simply would like to become a more active member of NABS, please feel free to contact me or any member of the board as well. We are all driven to continue to strengthen NABS and the NFB, and would love to work shoulder to shoulder with you to do it. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and please be in touch with any questions, comments or suggestions. Take care, Sean Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Thu Jun 14 12:50:34 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:50:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace In-Reply-To: <2967659B-ED13-42E1-8CC7-9A2E5AED71D1@gmail.com> References: <9677C0E37BCE4B7E85977F9A7EF904E9@OwnerPC> <2967659B-ED13-42E1-8CC7-9A2E5AED71D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA8@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> What's important to me is that Apple seems more inclined to make accessibility a priority where as others don't seem to as much. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg Aikens Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace The idea that Voiceover only works with applications developed by apple is false. There are many third party apps that are perfectly accessible with voiceover. I use third party apps like Skype, Abby Fine Reader (OCR), To-do list, Adium (chat client), Piano Pub (Pandora client), and others all the time. There are also apps that Voiceover does not work well with, such as MS Office, Open Office, etc. VO is definitely customizable, especially since OS 10.7 came out last summer. I'm not a hard core mac guy. I honestly only switched because in an unfortunate series of circumstances, I found myself between VR cases and I needed a laptop to start school. The Mac +VO option was far more affordable than the PC + Jaws option. There was a lot of learning and relearning I had to do when I first started and for a while I had my doubts. But now I feel like mac is a perfectly good alternative to windows + JAWS, especially for those purchasing their own equipment. I also love Jaws. During student teaching this last semester I had the opportunity to sit down with Jaws 13 and I am impressed with the new features they have added. Windows seems in general more accessible then when I last used it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that both systems are different but useful. In terms of overall access, Jaws may be better. But in terms of total system integration and cost, it certainly isn't. I think Apple's commitment to universal design is excellent, and I'm not sure why people in the blind community take issue with it. Don't we want affordable access? I understand that sometimes mac users can be obnoxious and suffer from a slight superiority complex, but don't let that distract you from the good things about voiceover. . -Greg On Jun 13, 2012, at 12:00 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. However, that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We have more access too because you can customize not only the applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do not know how much customization you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from the beginning. Too often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer may have scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as of 2007 make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person can skim the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>> I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>> employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>> accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft >>> ware, it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I >>> have two clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't >>> working well with the employer's technology. This is a form of >>> discrimination and it violates the ADA in the same way that >>> inaccessible web cites violate >> >>> the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>> he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>> All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>> were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>> ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>> are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>> the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>> maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>> acessible >> programs? >>> I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>> hurdles >> >>> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>> the only >>> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>> through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the >>> form of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work >>> with clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's >>> computer system is >> >>> running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>> fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple >>> level building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of >>> discrimination is reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for >>> "more programs," but >> >>> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>> certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>> employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>> see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>> Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>> asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>> companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit >>> and they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person >>> has the skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if >>> a nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is >>> "oh, yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a >>> tax break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better >>> pay me to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. >>> Our government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies >>> like Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we >>> are taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How >>> is this >> >>> any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system >>> is perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe >>> its an >> effective way of >>> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>> option I >>> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>> change. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>> rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>> could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire >>> us because >> >>> we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>> This >>> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>> settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>> you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>> boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>> employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>> policy >> to set that straight. >>> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>> one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>> humble >> >>> opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>> are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>> pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>> am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>> but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>> considerable >> >>> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>> the >> >>> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>> information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>> I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>> recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>> ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>> average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>> many states >> >>> have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>> state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>> these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>> how >> >>> exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>> calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>> factory >> >>> worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>> the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>> numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>> actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>> less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>> which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>> can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>> workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>> is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>> post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>> the federal government, providing goods and services through >>> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>> nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>> the >> >>> wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>> but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>> government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>> stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>> rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>> that >> >>> it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>> have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>> completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>> realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>> I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>> currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>> employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>> changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>> government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>> support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.c > om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 20:00:08 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:00:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE Message-ID: Hi, I tried to email Lisa for the Self Defense section Sunday @ 1-10 Sunday in Dallas with no response. Does anyone know why this is a 9 hour section? Anyone go last year? R there individual classes? How do u register in advance and what r the fees? TIA Deb -- *Deb's Cell: 520-225-8244* From raydar11011 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 20:32:15 2012 From: raydar11011 at yahoo.com (Reinhard Stebner) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:32:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02f101cd4a6c$c9012030$5b036090$@yahoo.com> Try and contact Mark Melonson He may have info on this. I know that he is putting together a self-defense for the blind. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deb Mendelsohn Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE Hi, I tried to email Lisa for the Self Defense section Sunday @ 1-10 Sunday in Dallas with no response. Does anyone know why this is a 9 hour section? Anyone go last year? R there individual classes? How do u register in advance and what r the fees? TIA Deb -- *Deb's Cell: 520-225-8244* _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raydar11011%40yahoo.com From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 21:32:48 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:32:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE In-Reply-To: <02f101cd4a6c$c9012030$5b036090$@yahoo.com> References: <02f101cd4a6c$c9012030$5b036090$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: OK TU Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 On Jun 14, 2012 1:46 PM, "Reinhard Stebner" wrote: > Try and contact > Mark Melonson > He may have info on this. I know that he is putting together a self-defense > for the blind. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Deb Mendelsohn > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:00 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE > > Hi, > I tried to email Lisa for the Self Defense section Sunday @ 1-10 Sunday in > Dallas with no response. Does anyone know why this is a 9 hour section? > Anyone go last year? R there individual classes? How do u register in > advance and what r the fees? > TIA > Deb > > -- > *Deb's Cell: 520-225-8244* > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raydar11011%40yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 22:15:45 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 18:15:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE In-Reply-To: <02f101cd4a6c$c9012030$5b036090$@yahoo.com> References: <02f101cd4a6c$c9012030$5b036090$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000201cd4a7b$3f657920$be306b60$@gmail.com> Hi Reinhard, But his self-defense class might not be the one at national convention. Do you know if his class is the one at the convention? Deb, I would try waiting another day or so for Lisa to get back to you; she is probably busy. If she still doesn't reply, try either emailing her again or calling her. Her number is on the NFB Web site. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Reinhard Stebner Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:32 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE Try and contact Mark Melonson He may have info on this. I know that he is putting together a self-defense for the blind. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deb Mendelsohn Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE Hi, I tried to email Lisa for the Self Defense section Sunday @ 1-10 Sunday in Dallas with no response. Does anyone know why this is a 9 hour section? Anyone go last year? R there individual classes? How do u register in advance and what r the fees? TIA Deb -- *Deb's Cell: 520-225-8244* _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raydar11011%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 00:43:51 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:43:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Message-ID: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 00:54:02 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:54:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE In-Reply-To: <045301cd4a81$79dbd8a0$6d9389e0$@yahoo.com> References: <02f101cd4a6c$c9012030$5b036090$@yahoo.com> <000201cd4a7b$3f657920$be306b60$@gmail.com> <045301cd4a81$79dbd8a0$6d9389e0$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000b01cd4a91$5c0be850$1423b8f0$@gmail.com> Hi Reinhard and everyone, I don't have my BrailleNote with me at the moment, and I don't have the agenda on my computer, but I seem to remember that the guy teaching the class at convention was Stephen Nichols. If it helps, the guy teaching the class this year was the same guy who tought it last year. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Reinhard Stebner [mailto:raydar11011 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:00 PM To: 'Chris Nusbaum' Subject: RE: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE Hi Chris, I do know he will be at convention, but I do not know if this is the class he will be putting on. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum [mailto:dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 6:16 PM To: raydar11011 at yahoo.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: RE: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE Hi Reinhard, But his self-defense class might not be the one at national convention. Do you know if his class is the one at the convention? Deb, I would try waiting another day or so for Lisa to get back to you; she is probably busy. If she still doesn't reply, try either emailing her again or calling her. Her number is on the NFB Web site. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Reinhard Stebner Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:32 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE Try and contact Mark Melonson He may have info on this. I know that he is putting together a self-defense for the blind. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deb Mendelsohn Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] NFB SELF DEFENSE Hi, I tried to email Lisa for the Self Defense section Sunday @ 1-10 Sunday in Dallas with no response. Does anyone know why this is a 9 hour section? Anyone go last year? R there individual classes? How do u register in advance and what r the fees? TIA Deb -- *Deb's Cell: 520-225-8244* _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raydar11011%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 01:16:05 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 18:16:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office In-Reply-To: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002c01cd4a94$70f0d8e0$52d28aa0$@gmail.com> Chris, do you have the virtual ribbon menus turned on on JAWS? This makes things so easier! PS in case you don't have them turned on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 02:20:43 2012 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility Message-ID: So, what are your options for making employment software and websites accessible if they are not currently accessible? I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a company that uses online software, websites and content management systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most pressing and concerning questions many of us face. I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus "accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should you do? Brice On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: > Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently > cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. > > Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be > applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come > close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make > employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. > > Dave > > At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>the only >>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>option I >>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>change. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>This >>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Ashley, >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>opinion. >> Take it or leave it, >>Kirt >> >>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Elizabeth, >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >> >> paid >> >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>pay. I >> >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make >>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>information that was cited in the article itself. >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>I am >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>ed-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>exactly >> >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>calculated >> >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries >>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >> >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>if >> >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >> of paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>workers with disabilities >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >> >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>so >> >> high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention >> >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and >> >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers >> >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>costs that exceed their fair market value. >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>to create employment opportunities >> >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >> management of >> >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>wage to give them >> >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>contracting should have to >> >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are completely >>correct. The boycott of Good >> >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >> >> to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>realistically going to >> >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>I >> >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>currently makes $1.50 an >> >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >> This would represent an annual cost increase >> >> of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>changed is bogus and cynical. >> As I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>government pays. >> And, as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>support the >> >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >> Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 15 02:31:57 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:31:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office In-Reply-To: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris, You are right that outlook is accessible and in fact a few features now work that did not in the past. I also agree its easier to navigate than gmail. My school uses gmail so I use it in basic html mode. It has frames and is just a difficult layout. At least outlook is a list; you have a list of messages and a list of your folders like inbox, sent items, and deleted items. Anyway, the description of the ribbon is right. Up top is the tabs and on the bottom is the categories. I know jaws has a virtual ribbon, but that totally misses my point. Personally I find the jaws virtual menus worse than the office ribbon since I don't see the split buttons which is like a submenu with the ribbonns. I use the standard ribbons and in fact forget how to turn on virtual ribbons. But I'm talking about microsoft accessibility, not jaws. Not everyone uses jaws. In fact I bet with free screen readers and more readers now on the market, I bet you less and less use jaws. So IMO, microsoft needs to make their products more accessible. You have to tab and tab on the lower ribbon to get to everything. Another example, for those who used powerpoint, you cannot tab on the lower ribbon to the sound transitions. Try it. Go to the transitions tab and try to find the sound effects. Unless you go backwards, meaning starting at the end, and shift tabbing back, you will not hear sound effects group. I never knew it was there until someone told me where, because jaws skipped over it. I navigated that tab many times and never saw it. Also, in Word, sometimes it skips things on the lower ribbon too. I realize many like ribbons, but I've spoken to lots of people, I mean sighted people too, who find it a pain. They, too, would rather scroll and skim through a menu. Another challenge I find is galleries. In a gallery, you right arrow over to your options but then it puts you back at your first option. Its hard to explain, but I see this a lot in powerpoint. And finally, Access 2003 was accessible and in later versions it is not. Another thing is that in 2010 version, Word still puts extra spacing between your lines. How is a totally blind person going to know this? I don't think they will. You have to change the spacing after to 0 points and the default is 10 points. Jaws says single spaced even though to a sighted person, and I noticed as I looked close, that there was extra space between lines. At least one good thing is you can create your own tab, thereby customizing it to your liking and can get to frequently used stuff by putting it there. I want to find out how to create a tab and use it. Chris, I'm glad you like office 2010, but I think you will find that as you need more applications and navigate other applications, you will find glitches. Also, I hear windows 8 is more visual and NFB isn't doing anything about it. For instance you won't have a shut down button on the start menu. It looks more like a tablet I heard. A trainer that I worked with who saw the beta version told me this. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:43 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 15 02:33:57 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:33:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windowsand Microsoft Office In-Reply-To: <002c01cd4a94$70f0d8e0$52d28aa0$@gmail.com> References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> <002c01cd4a94$70f0d8e0$52d28aa0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Humberto, How do you turn and off virtual ribbons? Chris was describing the regular ribbon where you have tabs and a lower ribbon in each tab. The virtual ribbons are a jaws feature and simulate menus -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:16 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windowsand Microsoft Office Chris, do you have the virtual ribbon menus turned on on JAWS? This makes things so easier! PS in case you don't have them turned on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Jun 15 02:34:58 2012 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:34:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Brice, There is so much software out there that it isn't at all surprising that you won't get a definitive answer. What kind of job is it? It could be that one of our other lists may have people who have had experience with it. Is your job with a government entity of any kind, or is it a private company? The federal government and some state governments are governed by laws or regulations that require that their software be accessible. If it turns out that it isn't, they would have a good deal of insentive to work with you.\ Given the scarcity of jobs these days, I would hesitate to reject a possible job because you don't know if their software is accessible. I think I would let them know at some point that you may need to do a little work to use their software efficiently, and perhaps see if you could get an advanced look at it. Also, software that you use every day can be a different sort of challenge. Problems that slow you way down are more serious than with software you occasionally use, but learning to use the Window-Eyes Mouse Pointer or the JAWS Cursor is less of a problem when you do it all the time. It can become second nature when you are using that approach to do the same tasks. It just isn't simple, I'm afraid, and I agree completely that this is becoming a bigger and bigger problem. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >accessible if they are not currently accessible? >I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >company that uses online software, websites and content management >systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >pressing and concerning questions many of us face. >I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >"accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >you do? >Brice >On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >>>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make >>>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries >>>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >>>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>>if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>>so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >>>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>>costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are completely >>>correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 15 02:50:24 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:50:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <819F86440EB8476BB0774DDA3C3F0B45@OwnerPC> Hi Brice, Finally someone understands and voices exactly my concerns. What type of jobs are you seeking? Wasn't your major communications? After I finish up a writing certificate at a community college, I'm looking for work. I actually have a BA degree as well in liberal studies wich is a combined degree of two concentrations and mine were psychology and communication. Accessibility is this big hurdle and unknown factor. I face the same issues even when I attempt to interview for volunteer positions. I want to volunteer for experience and networking and contributing to the community. The employer will ask you how you can perform x task and if you do not know how jaws and xx database work together I don't know what you'd do. One suggestion I have is bring the jaws cd with you. Use the demo version on their PC to test out the software. A second suggestion is if there is a free trial version of the software, download it and test it on your own pc. Still another option is ask freedom scientific. They probably won't know. I asked them if Raiser's edge, a commonly used nonprofit database was accessible. They said they did not know! I am also wondering if Donor Perfect is accessible as I've seen job ads with that skill needed. Its another database. You might call the company who makes the software and ask if they follow accessibility guidelines. Government agencies and contractors should follow section 508, so they should be accessible. If they are not, they are breaking the law. Lastly, I'd say network and ask other blind people. Ask in person via nfb meetings and events. Ask the technology center folks at NFB headquarters. Also ask any blind people in that field about it. Finally, if you are not aware of it AFB American foundation for the blind has a career mentor database. Its called career connect. Go to www.afb.org and click on career resources or something like that and then career connect. After you set up a profile, you will be able to write to mentors through their server. One more human resource for accessibility is the lady who teaches technology classes at the distance school for the blind, Hadley. Her name is Amy Salmon. She might be able to help you or know who would know the answer. You said it so well when you said "And yet, it's one of the most pressing and concerning questions many of us face." You might be able to get your employer to contract for jaws scripts if its inaccessible. Good luck with your job hunt! This is a barrier to employment that is not getting any better. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility So, what are your options for making employment software and websites accessible if they are not currently accessible? I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a company that uses online software, websites and content management systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most pressing and concerning questions many of us face. I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus "accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should you do? Brice On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: > Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently > cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. > > Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be > applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come > close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make > employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. > > Dave > > At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>the only >>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>option I >>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>change. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>This >>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Ashley, >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>opinion. >> Take it or leave it, >>Kirt >> >>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Elizabeth, >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >> >> paid >> >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>pay. I >> >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make >>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>information that was cited in the article itself. >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>I am >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>ed-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>exactly >> >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>calculated >> >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries >>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >> >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>if >> >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >> of paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>workers with disabilities >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >> >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>so >> >> high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention >> >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and >> >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers >> >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>costs that exceed their fair market value. >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>to create employment opportunities >> >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >> management of >> >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>wage to give them >> >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>contracting should have to >> >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are completely >>correct. The boycott of Good >> >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >> >> to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>realistically going to >> >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>I >> >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>currently makes $1.50 an >> >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >> This would represent an annual cost increase >> >> of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>changed is bogus and cynical. >> As I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>government pays. >> And, as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>support the >> >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >> Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 02:50:44 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 19:50:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windowsand Microsoft Office In-Reply-To: References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> <002c01cd4a94$70f0d8e0$52d28aa0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002d01cd4aa1$a9bdc9f0$fd395dd0$@gmail.com> To turn on virtual ribbons: 1. press insert+6, 6 on the numbers row. 2. you will get the settings center window. This is where you change all your settings for JAWS. 3. press control+shift+D to get to the default configuration, as JAWS does not allow you to change the Virtual ribbon menu setting in a specific application file. The settings center will bring up the application's specific file when you open it, so be cognizant about this. 4. now after you pressed that keystroke, press Control+E. 5. you will land on an edit box after you press that keystroke. Start typing "ribbon", or even if you type the starting three letters "RIB", you will see immediately the option, use virtual ribbon menu. 6. down arrow until you hear the checkbox. It will say something like "use virtual ribbon menu not checked". Go ahead and press the space bar to check. 7. tab to the apply button, then press enter or spacebar. 8. tab to OK to close the window or just hit escape. Hope this helped you! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windowsand Microsoft Office Humberto, How do you turn and off virtual ribbons? Chris was describing the regular ribbon where you have tabs and a lower ribbon in each tab. The virtual ribbons are a jaws feature and simulate menus -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:16 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windowsand Microsoft Office Chris, do you have the virtual ribbon menus turned on on JAWS? This makes things so easier! PS in case you don't have them turned on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 15 02:55:02 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:55:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, well said. Advanced look at the software was what I was suggesting. Also, I would guess that online software would work if its text based. If you cannot test the software with jaws, maybe if they describe it to you you will make an educated guess. If the software is using flash or is an adobe product, its probably not accessible. If it looks like a standard web form with combo boxes, it probably is accessible. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Steve Jacobson Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility Brice, There is so much software out there that it isn't at all surprising that you won't get a definitive answer. What kind of job is it? It could be that one of our other lists may have people who have had experience with it. Is your job with a government entity of any kind, or is it a private company? The federal government and some state governments are governed by laws or regulations that require that their software be accessible. If it turns out that it isn't, they would have a good deal of insentive to work with you.\ Given the scarcity of jobs these days, I would hesitate to reject a possible job because you don't know if their software is accessible. I think I would let them know at some point that you may need to do a little work to use their software efficiently, and perhaps see if you could get an advanced look at it. Also, software that you use every day can be a different sort of challenge. Problems that slow you way down are more serious than with software you occasionally use, but learning to use the Window-Eyes Mouse Pointer or the JAWS Cursor is less of a problem when you do it all the time. It can become second nature when you are using that approach to do the same tasks. It just isn't simple, I'm afraid, and I agree completely that this is becoming a bigger and bigger problem. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >accessible if they are not currently accessible? >I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >company that uses online software, websites and content management >systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >pressing and concerning questions many of us face. >I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >"accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >you do? >Brice >On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >>>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make >>>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries >>>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >>>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>>if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>>so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >>>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>>costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are completely >>>correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 02:59:17 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:59:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Food Service Jobs? Message-ID: Hi all, When Brandon gave a list of entry-level jobs earlier that a blind person could perform, I noticed one job on the list was "working at Subway". It made me curious to know if other blind students have worked at restaurants, cafes, etc. and if so, what special techniques, if any, did you use other than the techniques we use for cooking and serving food at home? While food service may not be the most glamorous job, it is a common way many of our peers in high school and college earn a basic income. However, I don't know many blind people who have done these jobs, and I'm not sure if that's because the jobs aren't accessible or if so many of us have just been discouraged to pursue them. When I was in high school I was obsessed with Starbucks and thought it would be fun to work there, but I was quickly talked out of it. One question I have is how a blind employee would handle or serve food without touching things, which would violate many restaurants' food safety codes. Not that I get my fingers all up in food, but if I am cooking or serving something, I will often just lightly brush my hand across the plate to check that the serving size is reasonable, for instance. I wash my hands compulsively when I am cooking and it's not a big deal if it's just my family or friends, but it's different if you are serving food at a professional establishment. What about cutting or chopping without feeling to make sure the slices are even? I am quite confident that a blind person with good skills could do something like flip hamburgers, and of course wash dishes, but has anyone ever done it? Also, for waitressing, are there techniques for carrying a tray with multiple plates or glasses while also using a cane or guide dog? I'd think that's the only part of waitressing that might be tricky. What about making drinks at a bar or coffee shop? If everything is labeled it should be doable, but again there's the issue of finding another way to tell when a cup or spoon is full without using your finger. And at a busy bar, keeping bottles labeled in Braille is probably not realistic. If anyone has answers to these questions, other than "I don't think it's possible" please share. I think we need to work on expanding the horizons of these entry-level jobs which, for so many sighted folks, help pay the bills in college. If more of us could land these jobs, no matter how menial, less of us would need to receive SSI in college. Best, Arielle From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 03:08:07 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:08:07 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office In-Reply-To: References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002e01cd4aa4$16f61390$44e23ab0$@gmail.com> Actually, i don't know why some of you guys don't like the JAWS virtual ribbon menus. Personally, I love them. They are so much easier than the standard, off-the-shelf ribbons without using the JAWS simulated ribbons. You get the upper ribbons, on the upper tabs, like home tab, insert tab, ETC in Microsoft word. Then after you press the down arrow on a tab, you get traditional submenu styles. Like when I press down arrow on the Home tab in Microsoft word 2010, I hear, "clipboard submenu, editing submenu, paragraph submenu," ETC. when I hit the right arrow or enter on the submenu I want, I hear standard options. Sometimes there are buttons, which I can activate by hitting enter, sometimes they are checkboxes I can toggle by hitting enter, and also I would get combo boxes and edit combo boxes. To activate these edit combos, I press Alt+down Arrow and this simulates like the forms mode on and off. To close these after selecting an item, press enter. Also, to activate a split button, you press the spacebar. You will usually get more options organized in a listbox, sometimes they will be more menus. There are also dropdown buttons, which you can press the space bar to activate more options. Some will say, dropdown grid. When you press the spacebar, they are literally like grids. You can press all the up, down, right and left arrow keys to move and hear options. I think you should play around with them. It's like those ribbons are converted into submenus by JAWS and they aren't ribbons anymore, except for the upper tabs. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office Chris, You are right that outlook is accessible and in fact a few features now work that did not in the past. I also agree its easier to navigate than gmail. My school uses gmail so I use it in basic html mode. It has frames and is just a difficult layout. At least outlook is a list; you have a list of messages and a list of your folders like inbox, sent items, and deleted items. Anyway, the description of the ribbon is right. Up top is the tabs and on the bottom is the categories. I know jaws has a virtual ribbon, but that totally misses my point. Personally I find the jaws virtual menus worse than the office ribbon since I don't see the split buttons which is like a submenu with the ribbonns. I use the standard ribbons and in fact forget how to turn on virtual ribbons. But I'm talking about microsoft accessibility, not jaws. Not everyone uses jaws. In fact I bet with free screen readers and more readers now on the market, I bet you less and less use jaws. So IMO, microsoft needs to make their products more accessible. You have to tab and tab on the lower ribbon to get to everything. Another example, for those who used powerpoint, you cannot tab on the lower ribbon to the sound transitions. Try it. Go to the transitions tab and try to find the sound effects. Unless you go backwards, meaning starting at the end, and shift tabbing back, you will not hear sound effects group. I never knew it was there until someone told me where, because jaws skipped over it. I navigated that tab many times and never saw it. Also, in Word, sometimes it skips things on the lower ribbon too. I realize many like ribbons, but I've spoken to lots of people, I mean sighted people too, who find it a pain. They, too, would rather scroll and skim through a menu. Another challenge I find is galleries. In a gallery, you right arrow over to your options but then it puts you back at your first option. Its hard to explain, but I see this a lot in powerpoint. And finally, Access 2003 was accessible and in later versions it is not. Another thing is that in 2010 version, Word still puts extra spacing between your lines. How is a totally blind person going to know this? I don't think they will. You have to change the spacing after to 0 points and the default is 10 points. Jaws says single spaced even though to a sighted person, and I noticed as I looked close, that there was extra space between lines. At least one good thing is you can create your own tab, thereby customizing it to your liking and can get to frequently used stuff by putting it there. I want to find out how to create a tab and use it. Chris, I'm glad you like office 2010, but I think you will find that as you need more applications and navigate other applications, you will find glitches. Also, I hear windows 8 is more visual and NFB isn't doing anything about it. For instance you won't have a shut down button on the start menu. It looks more like a tablet I heard. A trainer that I worked with who saw the beta version told me this. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:43 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From cassonw at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 03:47:53 2012 From: cassonw at gmail.com (Bill) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:47:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office In-Reply-To: <002e01cd4aa4$16f61390$44e23ab0$@gmail.com> References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> <002e01cd4aa4$16f61390$44e23ab0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Someone said the standard view of GMail is not accessible at all, I disagree. I use the standard view with Window-Eyes 7.5 exclusively for interacting with my several gmail accounts and to manage several other accounts which are set up to forward and for gmail to send from. The first thing I do which I find super helpful when setting up a new new gmail acount is to turn on the keyboard shortcuts under the general tab in the settings. Though I am a WE user, when I was studying at the CCB, I used JAWS exclusively and was still able to access my gmail without much trouble. I admit that it is a bit trickier with the constant changing between the several different cursors in JAWS but once you get used to it, it is way more efficient then the basic HTML view. If people are interested in the techniques I use, feel free to email me offlist and I can try and help. As for the ribben, if you are used to the classic menu system, then the ribbins can be quite dawnting. As with most things, if you learn where things are, there are many shortcuts to help get betwenn the groups, select a specific option and so on that makes them almost as quick as using the menu system from office 2003. I think JAWS will eventually have to dump the virtual ribbins as it will become unmanageable, and they will need to let their users learn them. For example, Windows 8 will be featuring the ribbin in windows explorer and several other of its own applications. There is some challenges with using Windows 8, but they can be overcome with a bit of practice. There is a video on GW Micro's website that demonstrates the new OS with the private beta of WinEyes 8. Though there are a few new methods and quirks, it isn't actually that bad once you learn the new system. Bill On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Humberto Avila wrote: > Actually, i don't know why some of you guys don't like the JAWS virtual > ribbon menus. Personally, I love them. They are so much easier than the > standard, off-the-shelf ribbons without using the JAWS simulated ribbons. > You get the upper ribbons, on the upper tabs, like home tab, insert tab, ETC > in Microsoft word. Then after you press the down arrow on a tab, you get > traditional submenu styles. Like when I press down arrow on the Home tab in > Microsoft word 2010, I hear, "clipboard submenu, editing submenu, paragraph > submenu," ETC. when I hit the right arrow or enter on the submenu I want, I > hear standard options. Sometimes there are buttons, which I can activate by > hitting enter, sometimes they are checkboxes I can toggle by hitting enter, > and also I would get combo boxes and edit combo boxes. To activate these > edit combos, I press Alt+down Arrow and this simulates like the forms mode > on and off. To close these after selecting an item, press enter. Also, to > activate a split button, you press the spacebar. You will usually get more > options organized in a listbox, sometimes they will be more menus. There are > also dropdown buttons, which you can press the space bar to activate more > options. Some will say, dropdown grid. When you press the spacebar, they are > literally like grids. You can press all the up, down, right and left arrow > keys to move and hear options. > > I think you should play around with them. It's like those ribbons are > converted into submenus by JAWS and they aren't ribbons anymore, except for > the upper tabs. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows > andMicrosoft Office > > Chris, > You are right that outlook is accessible and in fact a few features now work > > that did not in the past. I also agree its easier to navigate than gmail. My > > school uses gmail so I use it in basic html mode. It has frames and is just > a difficult layout. At least outlook is a list; you have a list of messages > and a list of your folders like inbox, sent items, and deleted items. > > Anyway, the description of the ribbon is right. Up top is the tabs and on > the bottom is the categories. I know jaws has a virtual ribbon, but that > totally misses my point. Personally I find the jaws virtual menus worse than > > the office ribbon since I don't see the split buttons which is like a > submenu with the ribbonns. > I use the standard ribbons and in fact forget how to turn on virtual > ribbons. > But I'm talking about microsoft accessibility, not jaws. Not everyone uses > jaws. In fact I bet with free screen readers and more readers now on the > market, I bet you less and less use jaws. So IMO, microsoft needs to make > their products more accessible. You have to tab and tab on the lower ribbon > > to get to everything. Another example, for those who used powerpoint, you > cannot tab on the lower ribbon to the sound transitions. Try it. Go to the > transitions tab and try to find the sound effects. Unless you go backwards, > meaning starting at the end, > and shift tabbing back, you will not hear sound effects group. I never knew > it was there until someone told me where, because jaws skipped over it. I > navigated that tab many times and never saw it. Also, in Word, sometimes > it skips things on the lower ribbon too. I realize many like ribbons, but > I've spoken to lots of people, I mean sighted people too, who find it a > pain. They, too, would rather scroll and skim through a menu. > > Another challenge I find is galleries. In a gallery, you right arrow over to > > your options but then it puts you back at your first option. Its hard to > explain, but I see this a lot in powerpoint. > And finally, Access 2003 was accessible and in later versions it is not. > > Another thing is that in 2010 version, Word still puts extra spacing between > > your lines. How is a totally blind person going to know this? > I don't think they will. You have to change the spacing after to 0 points > and the default is 10 points. Jaws says single spaced even though to a > sighted person, and I noticed as I looked close, that there was extra space > between lines. > > At least one good thing is you can create your own tab, thereby customizing > it to your liking and can get to frequently used stuff by putting it there. > I want to find out how to create a tab and use it. > Chris, I'm glad you like office 2010, but I think you will find that as you > need more applications > and navigate other applications, you will find glitches. Also, I hear > windows 8 is more visual and NFB isn't doing anything about it. > For instance you won't have a shut down button on the start menu. It looks > more like a tablet I heard. A trainer that I worked with who saw the beta > version told me this. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:43 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows > andMicrosoft Office > > Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, > > With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of > this thread more clearly. > > Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two > months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but > it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of > Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the > other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier > than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are > accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft > Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. > > I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get > the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft > Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which > appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons > inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing > partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted > people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu > bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has > them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which > are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by > pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, > press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is > like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a > button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you > would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond > submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and > hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to > them. > > Hope this helps, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > Ashley, > You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. > (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you > prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because > of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab > through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can > turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, > honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because > it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the > quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. > Best, > Kirt > > On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Bill, >> There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. >> However, >> >> that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or >> window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We >> have more access too because you can customize not only the >> applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do >> not know how much customization >> >> you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only >> works with products produced by Apple. >> The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise >> awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from >> the beginning. Too >> >> often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer >> may have >> >> scripts produced for you to access their software. >> Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as >> of 2007 >> >> make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person >> can skim >> >> the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a >> traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter >> navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the >> old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. >> If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as >> I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system >> looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on >> the start menu as we do now. >> >> Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, >> quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. >> So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that >> said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility >> to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace >> >> I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing >> they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the >> system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications >> produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for >> firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the >> third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on >> windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the >> software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better >> access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider >> viriety of everyday and specialty programs. >> Bill >> >> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira >> wrote: >>> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >>> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >>> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >>> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >>> conversion was just a thought. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of David Andrews >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>> >>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>>violate >>> >>>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >>> >>>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>>were >>> enforced. >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>>acessible >>> programs? >>>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>>hurdles >>> >>>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>the only >>>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>>system is >>> >>>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >>> discriminatory! >>>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>>but >>> >>>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>>nonvisually impaired employee >>> has the skills? >>>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>>this >>> >>>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>>an >>> effective way of >>>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>option I >>>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>change. >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>>because >>> >>>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >>> quota. >>>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>This >>>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Ashley, >>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>>policy >>> to set that straight. >>>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>>humble >>> >>>>opinion. >>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>Kirt >>>> >>>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Elizabeth, >>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>>are >>>> >>>> paid >>>> >>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>>> they >>> >>>>pay. I >>>> >>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>>am >>>> >>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>>but >>>> >>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>>considerable >>> >>>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>>the >>> >>>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>I am >>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>> >>>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>ed-E >>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>>many states >>> >>>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>> >>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>>by state, go to: >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>> >>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Gregg, >>>> >>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>>how >>> >>>>exactly >>>> >>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>calculated >>>> >>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>>factory >>> >>>>worker or the >>>> >>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>>numbers, but if >>>> >>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>>> issue >>>> >>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>>actually >>>> >>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>>> 7300 >>> >>>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>> >>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>> >>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>workers with disabilities >>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>> >>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>> >>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>>is so >>>> >>>> high. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>>would post in case others are interested too. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>> >>>> Good afternoon, >>>> >>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>> attention >>>> >>>> for >>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>> >>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>> and >>>> >>>> most >>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>> workers >>>> >>>> with >>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>> >>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>>> scrutinized >>> >>>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>> >>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>>> >>>> for >>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>> >>>> management of >>>> >>>> these >>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>> >>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>> >>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>>the >>> >>>>wage to give them >>>> >>>> the >>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>> >>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>> >>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>>government contracting should have to >>>> >>>> fill >>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>>stands >>>> >>>> now, >>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>> >>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>> >>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>>that >>> >>>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>> >>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>>> >>>> Will >>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>>> us >>>> >>>> to >>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>realistically going to >>>> >>>> lead >>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>I >>>> >>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>currently makes $1.50 an >>>> >>>> hour. >>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>>> employee >>> >>>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>> >>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>> >>>> of >>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>> >>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>> >>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>>> As I >>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>> >>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>> >>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>government pays. >>>> And, as >>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>support the >>>> >>>> 70, >>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>> >>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>> >>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>>> to >>> >>>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>> >>>> Sean >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >>> om >> >> >> >> -- >> Bill Casson >> University of New Mexico >> M.S. Computer Science >> Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 >> B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. >> (505) 695-1374 >> cassonw at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> mail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com -- Bill Casson University of New Mexico M.S. Computer Science Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. (505) 695-1374 cassonw at gmail.com From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 03:54:40 2012 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 23:54:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This particular position is with a small but national communications and public relations agency in the private sector. The company uses project management software called "Basecamp" and a CMS called "Sitemason." Based on some more research I've done, it is possible these platforms are accessible. More likely, these programs are "partially" accessible which means I might have success with something yet have tremendous difficulty with something else. I just found a review test of Basecamp accessibility with screen readers; the result? You guessed it. "This Ajax application is usable by screen-reader users some of the time. They aren't totally shut out, but it isn't totally easy for them, either." ... Surprise! The same conclusion can be drawn about Raiser's Edge, a program I was asked to use last summer for an internship that I ultimately declined for another opportunity. As Ashley mentioned, Raiser's Edge is just one of many extremely popular and important database systems that many nonprofits use. These programs are essential as well: half assed accessibility just won't fly when you're dealing with sensitive donor and gift records. The problem with disclosing that you may need to do some work and testing to use their software efficiently is that you risk watering the seed of doubt about your ability to do the job. If you've managed to land an interview with a killer resume and mind blowing cover letter, researched the company and came with a relevant list of insightful and thought provoking questions, convinced them that you can actually do the work, shown incredible initiative and demonstrated that your blindness will not factor into the job responsibilities, you are well on your way to decreasing that pesky 70% unemployment rate among the blind. Then, you find out the company relies on proprietary software that may or may not work with your accessibility software, software your employer most likely knows nothing about. Let me try and test the usability of that software for a couple hours while you mentally begin to focus on the candidate that doesn't have usability questions about your company's software before even starting the job. Admittedly, all of this might be easier with the federal government and with blindness-related jobs. I have reached out to other blind professionals in the field with extremely limited success. While I risk coming off as indifferent and self-centered, surely I cannot be the only person who notices the irony of the passionate and heated fight for subminimum wages for Good Will employees on this list while many of us struggle with basic, fundamental access to higher-paying jobs. I realize there might not be any easy answers. I just really, really wish there were. Brice On 6/14/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Steve, > well said. Advanced look at the software was what I was suggesting. > Also, I would guess that online software would work if its text based. If > you cannot test the software with jaws, maybe if they describe it to you you > > will make an educated guess. If the software is using flash or is an adobe > product, its probably not accessible. > If it looks like a standard web form with combo boxes, it probably is > accessible. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Jacobson > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility > > Brice, > > There is so much software out there that it isn't at all surprising that you > > won't get a definitive answer. What kind of job is it? It could be that > one of our > other lists may have people who have had experience with it. Is your job > with a government entity of any kind, or is it a private company? The > federal > government and some state governments are governed by laws or regulations > that require that their software be accessible. If it turns out that it > isn't, they > would have a good deal of insentive to work with you.\ > > Given the scarcity of jobs these days, I would hesitate to reject a possible > > job because you don't know if their software is accessible. I think I would > > let > them know at some point that you may need to do a little work to use their > software efficiently, and perhaps see if you could get an advanced look at > it. > Also, software that you use every day can be a different sort of challenge. > > Problems that slow you way down are more serious than with software you > occasionally use, but learning to use the Window-Eyes Mouse Pointer or the > JAWS Cursor is less of a problem when you do it all the time. It can > become > second nature when you are using that approach to do the same tasks. > > It just isn't simple, I'm afraid, and I agree completely that this is > becoming a bigger and bigger problem. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400, Brice Smith wrote: > >>So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >>accessible if they are not currently accessible? > >>I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >>company that uses online software, websites and content management >>systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >>screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >>interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >>to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >>of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >>possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >>applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >>with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >>pressing and concerning questions many of us face. > >>I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >>never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >>"accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >>you do? > >>Brice > >>On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: >>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>> >>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>>>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>>>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>>>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>>>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>>>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>>>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>>>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>>>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>>>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>>>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>>>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>>>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>the only >>>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>>>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>>>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>>>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>>>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>>>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>>>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>>>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>>>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>>>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>>>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>>>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>>>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>>>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>>>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>>>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>>>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>>>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>option I >>>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>change. >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>>>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>>>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>>>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>This >>>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Ashley, >>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>> you're >>>>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>>>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>>>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>>>opinion. >>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>Kirt >>>> >>>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Elizabeth, >>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>>> >>>> paid >>>> >>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>>>pay. I >>>> >>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>> make >>>>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>>> >>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>>> >>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>I am >>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>>>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>> >>>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>ed-E >>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>> >>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>>state, go to: >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>> >>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Gregg, >>>> >>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>>>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>>>exactly >>>> >>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>calculated >>>> >>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>> salaries >>>>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>>>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >>>> >>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>> the >>>>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>>>if >>>> >>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>>> >>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>>> >>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>>what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>> >>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>> >>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>workers with disabilities >>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>> >>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>> >>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>>>so >>>> >>>> high. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>>post in case others are interested too. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>> >>>> Good afternoon, >>>> >>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>> attention >>>> >>>> for >>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>> >>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>> and >>>> >>>> most >>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>> workers >>>> >>>> with >>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>> >>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>> >>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>> the >>>>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>>>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>>>costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>>to create employment opportunities >>>> >>>> for >>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>> >>>> management of >>>> >>>> these >>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>> >>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>> >>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>>>wage to give them >>>> >>>> the >>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>> >>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>> >>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>>contracting should have to >>>> >>>> fill >>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>> >>>> now, >>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>> >>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>> >>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>> >>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>> completely >>>>correct. The boycott of Good >>>> >>>> Will >>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>>> >>>> to >>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>realistically going to >>>> >>>> lead >>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>I >>>> >>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>currently makes $1.50 an >>>> >>>> hour. >>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>> >>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>>>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>> >>>> of >>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>> >>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>> >>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>>> As I >>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>> >>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>> >>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>government pays. >>>> And, as >>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>support the >>>> >>>> 70, >>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>> >>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>> >>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>> >>>> Sean >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 15 04:13:04 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 00:13:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Food Service Jobs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B0C6EDE46A545E58F7191B81BC0BB1A@OwnerPC> Hi Arielle, I don't know about food, but I think making drinks at a bar or coffee shop would be doable. To tell when the cup is full you could use a gadget called a liquid level indicater; it beeps when it hits liquid. Another way might be by the sound of the liquid pouring into the cup. No I've never met or heard of a blind bar tender but as I think of it, I think it would be doable. Keeping bottles labeled in braille is not realistic I agree. It would simply take too long to read all in braille. Three ideas are to organize bottles in alphabetical order or some other way. You could also label in another way by category. I mean like all cherry flavors have a rubber band on them. You could even organize them in different shaped boxes I suppose and label the box; quicker than reading all bottles/flavors. A third way might be to have a talking bar code reader for identifying all bottles. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:59 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Food Service Jobs? Hi all, When Brandon gave a list of entry-level jobs earlier that a blind person could perform, I noticed one job on the list was "working at Subway". It made me curious to know if other blind students have worked at restaurants, cafes, etc. and if so, what special techniques, if any, did you use other than the techniques we use for cooking and serving food at home? While food service may not be the most glamorous job, it is a common way many of our peers in high school and college earn a basic income. However, I don't know many blind people who have done these jobs, and I'm not sure if that's because the jobs aren't accessible or if so many of us have just been discouraged to pursue them. When I was in high school I was obsessed with Starbucks and thought it would be fun to work there, but I was quickly talked out of it. One question I have is how a blind employee would handle or serve food without touching things, which would violate many restaurants' food safety codes. Not that I get my fingers all up in food, but if I am cooking or serving something, I will often just lightly brush my hand across the plate to check that the serving size is reasonable, for instance. I wash my hands compulsively when I am cooking and it's not a big deal if it's just my family or friends, but it's different if you are serving food at a professional establishment. What about cutting or chopping without feeling to make sure the slices are even? I am quite confident that a blind person with good skills could do something like flip hamburgers, and of course wash dishes, but has anyone ever done it? Also, for waitressing, are there techniques for carrying a tray with multiple plates or glasses while also using a cane or guide dog? I'd think that's the only part of waitressing that might be tricky. What about making drinks at a bar or coffee shop? If everything is labeled it should be doable, but again there's the issue of finding another way to tell when a cup or spoon is full without using your finger. And at a busy bar, keeping bottles labeled in Braille is probably not realistic. If anyone has answers to these questions, other than "I don't think it's possible" please share. I think we need to work on expanding the horizons of these entry-level jobs which, for so many sighted folks, help pay the bills in college. If more of us could land these jobs, no matter how menial, less of us would need to receive SSI in college. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 04:15:01 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:15:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? In-Reply-To: References: <4fd6c2eb.20f3640a.383c.7de4@mx.google.com> <45E51C05-EF17-4DD5-B4CA-3A1F0DC88BA7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Thanks Humberto for your kind words, and yes I am following this discussion. :) I have written several long posts about flying on this list in the past, and I should have saved them somewhere, but I didn't and I can't find them. I will offer a response here, but I think Greg did a pretty good job of starting out, so I won't repeat what he said. NABS is having a conference call on Sunday to discuss this topic, and I will try to sit in if I can in case there are questions I can answer, although I am confident Domonique will do a good job. I would, however, like to offer some little-known advantages of choosing to navigate the airport without assistance. I completely think it is fine to take assistance for any reason, and the choice to do so or not is an individual one. However, I think sometimes we are taught that the only good way to get through the airport is with help, and we don't necessarily think about other viable alternatives. I have done it both with and without assistance, but prefer to do it without, unless I am very rushed, have a ton of baggage or am not feeling well. Here are some reasons I prefer to do it this way: 1. It's nice to go wherever I want whenever I want without feeling as though I have a babysitter. If I have extra time at the airport, I will usually not go right to the gate, but will often browse food options or just walk around. With an assistant, I feel I have to go right to the gate. 2. It's not always faster. As Greg mentioned, sometimes there's a wait, and sometimes the escorts want to take a whole group of people at once, which slows things down. Particularly when I get to my destination, I am often restless and just want to get my bags and get in a cab as soon as I can. Without assistance I can control how long it takes. When I was flying back from Australia alone, I had a tight connection and requested assistance, but I insisted on meeting my escort at baggage claim, not right at the gate. I was told I'd have to wait for the entire plane to deboard before getting assistance at the gate, so I rushed to baggage claim on my own and met my escort there. As it happened, I was the last person to walk through the doors on my connecting plane because the time was so short; if I had waited for assistance at the gate, I would have missed that flight. 3. No fighting with someone about whether you need a wheelchair, golf-cart, preboarding or other accommodations. You can just do what you want. 4. On a related note, sometimes when I take assistance, my name gets put into the airline's system as a disabled passenger, and I can't always control what assumptions are made about my needs by the airline. If I want assistance on just one leg of the trip, it's harder for me to refuse it on the other leg because I've been pegged as a disabled passenger. 5. No worries about communication barriers between you and your escort. Last fall I flew home to visit my parents and I had a bug bite on my foot that swelled up making it painful to walk, so I decided to get assistance to reduce the amount of walking. My escort was not a native English speaker and got confused when I said I wanted to stop at McDonald's before going to my gate. He thought I was asking him to escort me onto the plane itself which he wasn't allowed to do and had to find another employee to interpret before he understood what I was telling him. Without assistance, again, you can go wherever you want without having to communicate with someone else about it. 6. Perhaps related to (5)--international travel. While I have only been to Australia by myself and they do provide assistance there, I would guess that in many countries assistance is hard to get, and finding an escort who speaks your language is probably even more difficult. If you know the basics of independent airport travel, you can literally go anywhere in the world by yourself. So how do I do it without help? Not by magic, but a lot of good old listening for sound cues and asking questions along the way. I can find security by listening for the sound of the metal detectors, and will ask someone if I am getting close. Fellow passengers can often be very helpful in this regard and it's no inconvenience to them if they're going the same way. To find your gate, look for a carpeted area which will often have a TV or radio playing, and ask what gate number you are at and for general directions to your gate. When it's time to board, simply follow the line of other passengers past the desk and down the jetway. The main thing to remember is that an airport is enclosed and so it is impossible to get seriously lost. If you get off track, all you need to do is ask one person for clarification and you can get back on track. I say all this as someone who has never been good at travel and who still gets nervous sometimes about walking around in big open parking lots or crossing unfamiliar streets. If you have more specific questions, feel free to write me off-list, call me at 602-502-2255 or come to the call on Sunday and ask me or Domonique. One more thing--I generally don't use the "disabled" security lines or pre-board unless, again, I have a lot of luggage or am not feeling well. Everyone has a different approach to these things, and I respect all views on this matter, but for me it's a philosophy issue. If I am moving around the airport independently, I want to be treated like any other passenger, not babysat or coddled. In order to be treated like one, I believe I need to put up with all the same inconveniences of waiting in line and waiting my turn to board as anyone else. I also don't feel it's fair to cut ahead of folks who got in line before me or who checked in before I did, since my blindness doesn't impact my ability to stand or to move down the jetway as other disabilities might. Since these accommodations are irrelevant to my blindness, I feel it is just as inappropriate for me to take them as it would be for a sighted, nondisabled person to do so. I feel fairly strongly about this, and usually have to negotiate with airline personnel who try to redirect me. They will even do this when I am traveling with my boyfriend, and infuriate me even more by talking to him instead of to me about it. I do sometimes make an exception if I have a big bag because that does tend to mess up my navigation and slow me down a little bit, a problem I probably wouldn't have if I were sighted, so I'll cut so as to not inconvenience others. Of course, if you are using assistance, the employee escort will probably want to skip the line in order to save his/her own time, which I think is fine. Arielle On 6/11/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > Wow, the below is pretty much exactly what I do! :O... I totally believe in > > asking from help from the get go, right as soon as you walk in the door. > Airlines are often really good at getting you to where you need to go. They > > don't always know what Sighted Guide is though, so you'll probably need to > ask them if you can please hold their elbow. > I often make some joke about how their elbow and I are having a nice > conversation about what's coming up as we're walking if they still are > grabbing me despite me holding their elbow in one hand and my cane in the > other. That usually helps. I also shrug off the wheelchair, saying it's way > > too slow. I do however love the little golf carts they sometimes take you > around in, those are way faster than I could walk! > But traveling with help gets you to the front of the line and keeps you from > > missing the flight. Also the airplane attendants know you're blind and let > you know when they're coming by with the garbage or food so you don't miss > it! > What I'm anxious to know is how traveling overseas works... Non parlo > Italiano! LOL > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Aikens > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:58 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? > > Hi Beth, > Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I generally > > handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. If I am taking a > > cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the curb side check-in for > my airline if it is available. That way I can ditch my checked bags as > early as possible, because I feel like they make navigating independently a > > little more difficult. If you do curb side check-in, it is generally > expected that you tip the person handling your bags. You can choose to > follow this convention or not. I have done both. > If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the part of > > the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have the shortest > path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will listen for the > counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. If it is the wrong > one, they generally redirect me to the correct counter. There are often > airline employees helping passengers in line to answer questions etc. so > keep an ear out. > > Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I ask for > > assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this independently, > > but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get assistance with this > > step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes for them to get someone up > there to assist you, but I make sure I am waiting in an area where there is > > an employee I can ask to make sure I have not been forgotten. These people > > have generally been helpful to me and have understood when I refused a > wheelchair. Occasionally you'll get someone who just doesn't get it, but if > > you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. > > When you get to security there is generally a line designated for passengers > > with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes slower than the > > main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for assistance, you can ask > > the person with you to help judge the lines. At security, you have to put > everything you have into a bin, including your shoes. I usually put my cane > > through the scanner with all my other stuff, but I think I have heard of > people who keep it with them when they pass through the metal detector. I > find it simpler to put the cane through and trail the side of the machine up > > to the metal detector gate. At that point I ask the security person to > reach their hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk straight > through the metal detector without touching the sides. All in all, I am > separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. > > The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact with the > > people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to the desk. I > usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, you can choose to do > > this or not. > > The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are there to > > help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever uncomfortable, you > should definitely say something. You are the one in control, and sometimes > > airport staff need to be reminded of that. Remember that you are allowed to > > keep your cane with you at all times, with the possible exception of passing > > through the metal detector. > > I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is helpful. > Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. > > -Greg > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: > >> Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm actually >> flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like some practical >> no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. >> How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to get into >> >> the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might ask me to >> sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've planned a trip >> without a group of blind people or family around. I would like to get >> some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and how much it usually >> would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to DIA. >> >> Thanks, guys. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 15 04:27:39 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 00:27:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <171E71CE477243B0B0DA90776442336A@OwnerPC> Brice, I feel your pain. I've been asked several times If I'd be able to use raiser's edge. Since I'd like to work in nonprofits and help people ideally, I've come up with that question. Based on my research, raisers edge is partially accessile! And as you said, this simply won't fly when you need to manipulate sensative information! A solution to get around some of this is to have someone export the data you need to excel. 99 percent of things you can do in Raiser edge you can do in excel. I agree that asking to test employer software may put some doubts in their minds. But you have to weigh the pros and cons about it. If it’s a job and you get hired and cannot do essential functions, you run the risk of being fired. On the other hand, if you get hired and convince them you can do the job well and you are the best candidate, you may be able to work out accessibility challenges there. Having a coworker or external reader may be an option. Labeling unlabeled form fields online may help too. Your employer may be able to hire someone to write scripts for jaws. Finally, maybe you could do another task and a coworker do the tasks that are not accessible. Some databases let you export the data to excel. It’s a tricky situation for sure. Ashley edge -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility This particular position is with a small but national communications and public relations agency in the private sector. The company uses project management software called "Basecamp" and a CMS called "Sitemason." Based on some more research I've done, it is possible these platforms are accessible. More likely, these programs are "partially" accessible which means I might have success with something yet have tremendous difficulty with something else. I just found a review test of Basecamp accessibility with screen readers; the result? You guessed it. "This Ajax application is usable by screen-reader users some of the time. They aren't totally shut out, but it isn't totally easy for them, either." ... Surprise! The same conclusion can be drawn about Raiser's Edge, a program I was asked to use last summer for an internship that I ultimately declined for another opportunity. As Ashley mentioned, Raiser's Edge is just one of many extremely popular and important database systems that many nonprofits use. These programs are essential as well: half assed accessibility just won't fly when you're dealing with sensitive donor and gift records. The problem with disclosing that you may need to do some work and testing to use their software efficiently is that you risk watering the seed of doubt about your ability to do the job. If you've managed to land an interview with a killer resume and mind blowing cover letter, researched the company and came with a relevant list of insightful and thought provoking questions, convinced them that you can actually do the work, shown incredible initiative and demonstrated that your blindness will not factor into the job responsibilities, you are well on your way to decreasing that pesky 70% unemployment rate among the blind. Then, you find out the company relies on proprietary software that may or may not work with your accessibility software, software your employer most likely knows nothing about. Let me try and test the usability of that software for a couple hours while you mentally begin to focus on the candidate that doesn't have usability questions about your company's software before even starting the job. Admittedly, all of this might be easier with the federal government and with blindness-related jobs. I have reached out to other blind professionals in the field with extremely limited success. While I risk coming off as indifferent and self-centered, surely I cannot be the only person who notices the irony of the passionate and heated fight for subminimum wages for Good Will employees on this list while many of us struggle with basic, fundamental access to higher-paying jobs. I realize there might not be any easy answers. I just really, really wish there were. Brice On 6/14/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Steve, > well said. Advanced look at the software was what I was suggesting. > Also, I would guess that online software would work if its text based. If > you cannot test the software with jaws, maybe if they describe it to you > you > > will make an educated guess. If the software is using flash or is an adobe > product, its probably not accessible. > If it looks like a standard web form with combo boxes, it probably is > accessible. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Jacobson > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility > > Brice, > > There is so much software out there that it isn't at all surprising that > you > > won't get a definitive answer. What kind of job is it? It could be that > one of our > other lists may have people who have had experience with it. Is your job > with a government entity of any kind, or is it a private company? The > federal > government and some state governments are governed by laws or regulations > that require that their software be accessible. If it turns out that it > isn't, they > would have a good deal of insentive to work with you.\ > > Given the scarcity of jobs these days, I would hesitate to reject a > possible > > job because you don't know if their software is accessible. I think I > would > > let > them know at some point that you may need to do a little work to use their > software efficiently, and perhaps see if you could get an advanced look at > it. > Also, software that you use every day can be a different sort of > challenge. > > Problems that slow you way down are more serious than with software you > occasionally use, but learning to use the Window-Eyes Mouse Pointer or the > JAWS Cursor is less of a problem when you do it all the time. It can > become > second nature when you are using that approach to do the same tasks. > > It just isn't simple, I'm afraid, and I agree completely that this is > becoming a bigger and bigger problem. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400, Brice Smith wrote: > >>So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >>accessible if they are not currently accessible? > >>I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >>company that uses online software, websites and content management >>systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >>screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >>interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >>to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >>of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >>possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >>applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >>with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >>pressing and concerning questions many of us face. > >>I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >>never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >>"accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >>you do? > >>Brice > >>On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: >>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>> >>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>>>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>>>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>>>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>>>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>>>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>>>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>>>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>>>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>>>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>>>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>>>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>>>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>the only >>>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>>>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>>>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>>>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>>>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>>>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>>>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>>>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>>>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>>>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>>>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>>>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>>>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>>>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>>>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>>>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>>>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>>>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>option I >>>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>change. >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>>>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>>>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>>>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>This >>>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Ashley, >>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>> you're >>>>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>>>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>>>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>>>opinion. >>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>Kirt >>>> >>>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Elizabeth, >>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>>> >>>> paid >>>> >>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>>>pay. I >>>> >>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>> make >>>>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>>> >>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>>> >>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>I am >>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>>>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>> >>>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>ed-E >>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>> >>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>>state, go to: >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>> >>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Gregg, >>>> >>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>>>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>>>exactly >>>> >>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>calculated >>>> >>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>> salaries >>>>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>>>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >>>> >>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>> the >>>>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>>>if >>>> >>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>>> >>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>>> >>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>>what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>> >>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>> >>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>workers with disabilities >>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>> >>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>> >>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>>>so >>>> >>>> high. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>>post in case others are interested too. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>> >>>> Good afternoon, >>>> >>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>> attention >>>> >>>> for >>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>> >>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>> and >>>> >>>> most >>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>> workers >>>> >>>> with >>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>> >>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>> >>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>> the >>>>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>>>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>>>costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>>to create employment opportunities >>>> >>>> for >>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>> >>>> management of >>>> >>>> these >>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>> >>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>> >>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>>>wage to give them >>>> >>>> the >>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>> >>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>> >>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>>contracting should have to >>>> >>>> fill >>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>> >>>> now, >>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>> >>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>> >>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>> >>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>> completely >>>>correct. The boycott of Good >>>> >>>> Will >>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>>> >>>> to >>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>realistically going to >>>> >>>> lead >>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>I >>>> >>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>currently makes $1.50 an >>>> >>>> hour. >>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>> >>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>>>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>> >>>> of >>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>> >>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>> >>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>>> As I >>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>> >>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>> >>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>government pays. >>>> And, as >>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>support the >>>> >>>> 70, >>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>> >>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>> >>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>> >>>> Sean >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 04:29:29 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:29:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F4A4D6D447A4395855202281C343006@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, I would contact the company that makes the software and ask them if it's accessible and that you are going to work using this soon. Say that you're willing to work with them to make it accessible and you know other people who would be willing to test it. You may not be able to use Jaws, you may need to use NVDA or System access. But call them if possible. If they give you trouble I think there is a section of the NFB that helps people get compliance from companies and schools? If you posted their name we can go to them as well if they give you trouble. But more public you make things, more chance you have that it will work. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility So, what are your options for making employment software and websites accessible if they are not currently accessible? I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a company that uses online software, websites and content management systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most pressing and concerning questions many of us face. I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus "accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should you do? Brice On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: > Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently > cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. > > Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be > applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come > close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make > employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. > > Dave > > At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>the only >>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>option I >>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>change. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>This >>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >>Ashley, >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're >>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>opinion. >> Take it or leave it, >>Kirt >> >>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Elizabeth, >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >> >> paid >> >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>pay. I >> >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Greg, >> >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make >>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >> >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >> >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>information that was cited in the article itself. >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>I am >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Hi Elizabeth, >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >> >>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>ed-E >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>have minimum wage laws that are higher >> >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>state, go to: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >> >> Please check my facts in case I misread. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >> Hi Gregg, >> >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>exactly >> >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>calculated >> >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries >>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >> >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the >>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>if >> >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >> >> of paying people subminimum wage. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Greg Aikens" > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >> >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>what the average minimum wage for these workers >> >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >> >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>workers with disabilities >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >> >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >> >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>so >> >> high. >> >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>post in case others are interested too. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >> >> Good afternoon, >> >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention >> >> for >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >> >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and >> >> most >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers >> >> with >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >> >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >> >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the >>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>costs that exceed their fair market value. >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>to create employment opportunities >> >> for >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >> >> management of >> >> these >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >> >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >> >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>wage to give them >> >> the >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >> >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >> >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>contracting should have to >> >> fill >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >> >> now, >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >> >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >> >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >> >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are completely >>correct. The boycott of Good >> >> Will >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >> >> to >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>realistically going to >> >> lead >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>I >> >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>currently makes $1.50 an >> >> hour. >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >> >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >> This would represent an annual cost increase >> >> of >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >> >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >> >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>changed is bogus and cynical. >> As I >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >> >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >> >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>government pays. >> And, as >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>support the >> >> 70, >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >> >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >> >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >> >> Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 04:59:33 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:59:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Food Service Jobs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, Subway people use their hands... They wear plastic gloves to pick out your food. And in high class eateries that's all they do, touch your food till it's perfect! My Assistive Living instructor used to manage some Eateries and she said what she teaches me is no different than her top chefs did when making the really nice dishes. I've never washed dishes, but I've chopped stuff and cleaned food. Again all that is done with thin plastic gloves, mostly because cooking meat is the most disgusting thing in the world. I wouldn't work at Starbucks, I'd try the smaller shops like here by me there is a coffee shop called the clock tower that is really awesome. I've not worked there, but I know the manager there and she would totally want me to work there... Honestly making Lattés is dumping in the mix into the container with ice and cream and pressing go. It comes out you spray wiptcreem on and plop a cherry on top. If you're interested in doing a job, ask a sighted friend or the server how they do things. I think it may be surprising. In SF there is an eatery called Dining in the dark where everyone working there is blind I believe. dining in the dark http://sf.darkdining.com/ It may be cool to ask blind servers how they do things. BTW I don't know where any of the food safety rules say you can't touch your food... Maybe for McDonalds, but that's probably not a very fun place to work. My brother worked at an amusement park and he was able to touch food somewhat... Also, people will complain to you if they don't have enough food on the plate if they aren’t blind. Everything just takes practice though. If we can have a blind doctor, we can have a blind server! Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:59 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Food Service Jobs? Hi all, When Brandon gave a list of entry-level jobs earlier that a blind person could perform, I noticed one job on the list was "working at Subway". It made me curious to know if other blind students have worked at restaurants, cafes, etc. and if so, what special techniques, if any, did you use other than the techniques we use for cooking and serving food at home? While food service may not be the most glamorous job, it is a common way many of our peers in high school and college earn a basic income. However, I don't know many blind people who have done these jobs, and I'm not sure if that's because the jobs aren't accessible or if so many of us have just been discouraged to pursue them. When I was in high school I was obsessed with Starbucks and thought it would be fun to work there, but I was quickly talked out of it. One question I have is how a blind employee would handle or serve food without touching things, which would violate many restaurants' food safety codes. Not that I get my fingers all up in food, but if I am cooking or serving something, I will often just lightly brush my hand across the plate to check that the serving size is reasonable, for instance. I wash my hands compulsively when I am cooking and it's not a big deal if it's just my family or friends, but it's different if you are serving food at a professional establishment. What about cutting or chopping without feeling to make sure the slices are even? I am quite confident that a blind person with good skills could do something like flip hamburgers, and of course wash dishes, but has anyone ever done it? Also, for waitressing, are there techniques for carrying a tray with multiple plates or glasses while also using a cane or guide dog? I'd think that's the only part of waitressing that might be tricky. What about making drinks at a bar or coffee shop? If everything is labeled it should be doable, but again there's the issue of finding another way to tell when a cup or spoon is full without using your finger. And at a busy bar, keeping bottles labeled in Braille is probably not realistic. If anyone has answers to these questions, other than "I don't think it's possible" please share. I think we need to work on expanding the horizons of these entry-level jobs which, for so many sighted folks, help pay the bills in college. If more of us could land these jobs, no matter how menial, less of us would need to receive SSI in college. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 05:02:16 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:02:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, Can someone forward this below email to the president of the NFB please? I'm extremely curious what will be the response. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility This particular position is with a small but national communications and public relations agency in the private sector. The company uses project management software called "Basecamp" and a CMS called "Sitemason." Based on some more research I've done, it is possible these platforms are accessible. More likely, these programs are "partially" accessible which means I might have success with something yet have tremendous difficulty with something else. I just found a review test of Basecamp accessibility with screen readers; the result? You guessed it. "This Ajax application is usable by screen-reader users some of the time. They aren't totally shut out, but it isn't totally easy for them, either." ... Surprise! The same conclusion can be drawn about Raiser's Edge, a program I was asked to use last summer for an internship that I ultimately declined for another opportunity. As Ashley mentioned, Raiser's Edge is just one of many extremely popular and important database systems that many nonprofits use. These programs are essential as well: half assed accessibility just won't fly when you're dealing with sensitive donor and gift records. The problem with disclosing that you may need to do some work and testing to use their software efficiently is that you risk watering the seed of doubt about your ability to do the job. If you've managed to land an interview with a killer resume and mind blowing cover letter, researched the company and came with a relevant list of insightful and thought provoking questions, convinced them that you can actually do the work, shown incredible initiative and demonstrated that your blindness will not factor into the job responsibilities, you are well on your way to decreasing that pesky 70% unemployment rate among the blind. Then, you find out the company relies on proprietary software that may or may not work with your accessibility software, software your employer most likely knows nothing about. Let me try and test the usability of that software for a couple hours while you mentally begin to focus on the candidate that doesn't have usability questions about your company's software before even starting the job. Admittedly, all of this might be easier with the federal government and with blindness-related jobs. I have reached out to other blind professionals in the field with extremely limited success. While I risk coming off as indifferent and self-centered, surely I cannot be the only person who notices the irony of the passionate and heated fight for subminimum wages for Good Will employees on this list while many of us struggle with basic, fundamental access to higher-paying jobs. I realize there might not be any easy answers. I just really, really wish there were. Brice On 6/14/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Steve, > well said. Advanced look at the software was what I was suggesting. > Also, I would guess that online software would work if its text based. If > you cannot test the software with jaws, maybe if they describe it to you > you > > will make an educated guess. If the software is using flash or is an adobe > product, its probably not accessible. > If it looks like a standard web form with combo boxes, it probably is > accessible. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Jacobson > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility > > Brice, > > There is so much software out there that it isn't at all surprising that > you > > won't get a definitive answer. What kind of job is it? It could be that > one of our > other lists may have people who have had experience with it. Is your job > with a government entity of any kind, or is it a private company? The > federal > government and some state governments are governed by laws or regulations > that require that their software be accessible. If it turns out that it > isn't, they > would have a good deal of insentive to work with you.\ > > Given the scarcity of jobs these days, I would hesitate to reject a > possible > > job because you don't know if their software is accessible. I think I > would > > let > them know at some point that you may need to do a little work to use their > software efficiently, and perhaps see if you could get an advanced look at > it. > Also, software that you use every day can be a different sort of > challenge. > > Problems that slow you way down are more serious than with software you > occasionally use, but learning to use the Window-Eyes Mouse Pointer or the > JAWS Cursor is less of a problem when you do it all the time. It can > become > second nature when you are using that approach to do the same tasks. > > It just isn't simple, I'm afraid, and I agree completely that this is > becoming a bigger and bigger problem. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400, Brice Smith wrote: > >>So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >>accessible if they are not currently accessible? > >>I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >>company that uses online software, websites and content management >>systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >>screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >>interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >>to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >>of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >>possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >>applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >>with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >>pressing and concerning questions many of us face. > >>I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >>never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >>"accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >>you do? > >>Brice > >>On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: >>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>> >>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>>>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>>>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>>>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>>>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>>>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>>>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>>>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>>>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>>>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>>>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>>>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>>>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>the only >>>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>>>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>>>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>>>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>>>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>>>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>>>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>>>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>>>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>>>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>>>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>>>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>>>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>>>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>>>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>>>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>>>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>>>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>option I >>>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>change. >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>>>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>>>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>>>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>This >>>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Ashley, >>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>> you're >>>>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>>>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>>>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>>>opinion. >>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>Kirt >>>> >>>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Elizabeth, >>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>>> >>>> paid >>>> >>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>>>pay. I >>>> >>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>> make >>>>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>>> >>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>>> >>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>I am >>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>>>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>> >>>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>ed-E >>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>> >>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>>state, go to: >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>> >>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Gregg, >>>> >>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>>>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>>>exactly >>>> >>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>calculated >>>> >>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>> salaries >>>>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>>>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >>>> >>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>> the >>>>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>>>if >>>> >>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>>> >>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>>> >>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>>what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>> >>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>> >>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>workers with disabilities >>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>> >>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>> >>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>>>so >>>> >>>> high. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>>post in case others are interested too. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>> >>>> Good afternoon, >>>> >>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>> attention >>>> >>>> for >>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>> >>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>> and >>>> >>>> most >>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>> workers >>>> >>>> with >>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>> >>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>> >>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>> the >>>>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>>>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>>>costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>>to create employment opportunities >>>> >>>> for >>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>> >>>> management of >>>> >>>> these >>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>> >>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>> >>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>>>wage to give them >>>> >>>> the >>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>> >>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>> >>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>>contracting should have to >>>> >>>> fill >>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>> >>>> now, >>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>> >>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>> >>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>> >>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>> completely >>>>correct. The boycott of Good >>>> >>>> Will >>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>>> >>>> to >>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>realistically going to >>>> >>>> lead >>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>I >>>> >>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>currently makes $1.50 an >>>> >>>> hour. >>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>> >>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>>>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>> >>>> of >>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>> >>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>> >>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>>> As I >>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>> >>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>> >>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>government pays. >>>> And, as >>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>support the >>>> >>>> 70, >>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>> >>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>> >>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>> >>>> Sean >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Jun 15 09:11:07 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 04:11:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill boycott, and the media! Message-ID: I just E-mailed Bill ORiley, from Fox News. Let's hope he discusses this boycott, and gives us positive coverage, on tonight's show! Blessings, Joshua From dandrews at visi.com Fri Jun 15 09:46:38 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 04:46:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} New: Twenty-One Apps We Can't Live Without! Message-ID: > > >NBP logo > >Even more indispensable apps! > >[] > > >Book cover for "Twenty-One Apps We Can't Live Without" > > >Twenty-one iPhone Apps We Can't Live Without > >By Judy Dixon and Doug Wakefield >In braille, eBraille, Word/ASCII, and DAISY: $9.00 > > >Judy Dixon and Doug Wakefield love to play >around with iPhone apps, so we asked them to >pull together their "can't live without" apps in >our second booklet on the subject. We guarantee >you will find new apps that make life way >easier, most of which are free or less than $2. >Find out where you are in the world at any given >moment, what stores are nearby, bake brownies in >the Big Oven, listen to the BBC, design and mail >your own greeting cards, find something to eat >in unfamiliar airports, heck, find new ways to enjoy life in the new iWorld! > >Order at: >http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/APPSDIXON.html > >And don't miss our other iPhone guides: >Getting >Started with the iPhone and >iOS5 > >Twenty-six >Useful Apps for Blind iPhone Users >iPhone >Tactile ScreenShot Quick Reference Guide > > >****** >To order any books, send payment to: >NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 >Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. >Or order any of our books online at >http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html. > >Forward >to a friend > > >NBP logo > > > > > > >Copyright © 2012 National Braille Press, All rights reserved. > >National Braille Press >88 Saint Stephen St >Boston, MA 02115 > >Add >us to your address book > > >www.nbp.org From dandrews at visi.com Fri Jun 15 10:05:04 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:05:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Audio Description Message-ID: Beginning July 1, ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC, plus the top five cable networks will begin providing audio descriptions of some of their programming for blind or sight-impaired viewers. The shows to be described range from ABC's Modern Family to CBS's NCIS to Nickelodeon's Dora the Explorer to USA's Royal Pains. For now, stations in the top 25 markets and cable systems with 50,000 or more subs will be required to offer about four hours a week of the new service. The number of stations and hours will gradually increase. Starting July 1, the country’s 21.5 million visually impaired people will be able to enjoy TV more than ever before. On that day, the Big Four broadcast networks and the top five-rated cable networks will begin offering four hours a week of so-called video descriptions that clue in blind and partially sighted viewers on what's going on when the characters aren't talking. The descriptions, audible only to viewers who want them to be audible, are squeezed in between the dialog. Video descriptions have been part of broadcasting, cable, home video, but never to the extent on TV as they will be beginning next month. It's not altruism driving the surge in descriptions. They were mandated by Congress in the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act of 2010. According to the FCC's implementing rules, the Big Four O&Os and affiliates in the top 25 markets will have to air 50 hours each quarter ­ or roughly four hours a week ­ of described programming. Cable and satellite systems with at least 50,000 subscribers have to offer the same amount of described programming for the top five-rated cable networks ­ currently Disney, Nickelodeon, TBS, TNT and USA. And with just weeks to go before the deadline, the described programming plans of nine affected networks are shaping up. ABC’s plan is to provide descriptions on some of its Tuesday and Wednesday shows. This summer, those shows include sitcoms Last Man Standing, The Middle, Suburgatory, Modern Family, Happy Endings and Don't Trust the B---- in Apt. 23. In the fall, ABC will likely include most of those shows and new sitcom The Neighbors and new drama Nashville. CBS has been providing audio descriptions for several programs since 2002. The lineup is CSI, Criminal Minds, NCIS, NCIS: Los Angeles, plus movies and miniseries. NBC has broadcast a slew of shows with descriptions, including the Betty White reality show Off Their Rockers, drama Grimm and the summer series Saving Hope. Described sitcoms include The Office, Up All Night and Parks and Recreation. At Fox, The Simpsons has been audio described for several years. Beyond the animated sitcom, Fox isn't prepared to say what it would be offering. Disney Channel's described shows will include hit sitcoms Jessie, A.N.T. Farm and the animated Phineas and Ferb. Nickelodeon will offer descriptions for some of its biggest hits, like the long-running animated Dora the Explorer and preschool educational show Team Umizoomi. Turner Broadcasting will have described movies as well as TV series. Among the series: TNT’s The Closer and TBS’s Tyler Perry comedies House of Payne and For Better or Worse. USA’s described programs will include off-network shows NCIS and Law & Order: SVU, plus originals like Royal Pains and Suits. “My hope is that more and more networks will embrace these accessibility initiatives,” says Joel Snyder, president of Audio Description Associates. He serves as director of the American Council of the Blind’s audio description project and is an adviser to the FCC. “If they do it right, they'll find ways to make money from it. If they make their shows accessible to these folks, there is a bigger market for advertisers to sell their products.” For the most part, video-described programs won't include live shows or news. The networks, which are providing most of this content to their affiliates, need time to write description scripts for voice artists to record. “It takes longer to get that done than closed captioning,” says one network executive. “It also requires us to look at how our post-production schedules are set up. We have to work very closely with the folks at the post-production houses to make sure we get the programming to our vendors with sufficient time to get the video description correct.” Producing the descriptions costs between $2,000 to $4,000 per hour. The networks and some associations for the blind are helping to ensure that people with vision problems know that descriptions are coming. “It’s great for the networks to comply, but what’s more important is getting the information out to folks,” says Helena Berger, EVP-COO of the American Association of People with Disabilities. She is also a member of Comcast-NBCUniversal’s joint diversity council. “What we can do on our end at AAPD is to use our communication channels, like our newsletter, our website and social media to get the word out to the community.” Some of the networks are creating logos and audio tones so that people with vision problems know when a program has audio descriptions. So far, there isn't an industry standard. And TV listing providers like Tribune Media Services will provide data to programming services to let them know if a program is audio-described. Then, it’s up to individual cable systems to add symbols or sounds to their on-screen listings. These described programs are the culmination of a 12-year battle by the FCC and groups such as the Audio Description Institute. They thought they had won the battle in 2000 when the FCC adopted rules similar to the 2010 act, but a court agreed with broadcasters that the agency had overstepped its authority. Now backed by law, the new FCC rules gradually expand the description obligations to other TV stations. By July 1, 2015, major network affiliates in the top 60 markets will have to broadcast the descriptions. The FCC may require additional stations to air descriptions at a rate of 10 markets a year if it deems the cost is reasonable. According to broadcasters, it costs stations anywhere from $10,000 and $25,000 to install the gear necessary to handle the extra audio channel. Just because someone has a disability doesn't mean they don't want to be included in life,” says Debra Ruh, chief marketing officer at SSB Bart Group, a firm that helps companies make their computer services and websites fully compliant and accessible to people with disabilities. “Part of participating in life is being able to experience television. TV is a very important part of our culture.” From dandrews at visi.com Fri Jun 15 10:19:28 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:19:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At some point you, or somebody else will have to test the programs with assistive technology. That is one of the things we do at MN SSB for our customers seeking work -- and have staff who know how to do it. Unfortunately, at some point it has to be brought up -- and occasionally there are systems that we can't make accessible -- so someone doesn't get a job. Dave At 09:20 PM 6/14/2012, you wrote: >So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >accessible if they are not currently accessible? > >I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >company that uses online software, websites and content management >systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >pressing and concerning questions many of us face. > >I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >"accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >you do? > >Brice > >On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: > > Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently > > cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. > > > > Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be > > applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come > > close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make > > employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. > > > > Dave > > > > At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: > >>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers > >>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If > >>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them > >>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who > >>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's > >>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in > >>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a > >>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the > >>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these > >>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist > >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM > >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask > >>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not > >>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools > >>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should > >>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? > >>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles > >>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know > >>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe > >>the only > >>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through > >>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA > >>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day > >>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a > >>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that > >>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! > >>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level > >>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is > >>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but > >>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or > >>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street > >>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification > >>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even > >>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every > >>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service > >>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the > >>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want > >>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse > >>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how > >>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? > >>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, > >>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax > >>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to > >>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government > >>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive > >>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the > >>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the > >>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe > >>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of > >>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better > >>option I > >>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make > >>change. > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist > >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM > >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the > >>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be > >>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected > >>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue > >>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're > >>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. > >>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? > >>This > >>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle > >>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM > >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >>Ashley, > >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're > >>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes > >>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the > >>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. > >>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one > >>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble > >>opinion. > >> Take it or leave it, > >>Kirt > >> > >>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Elizabeth, > >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are > >> > >> paid > >> > >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > >>pay. I > >> > >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Elizabeth > >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >> Hi Greg, > >> > >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you make > >>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > >> > >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when > >>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > >> > >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the > >>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable > >>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an > >>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the > >>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the > >>information that was cited in the article itself. > >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. > >>I am > >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > >> > >> Warm regards, > >> Elizabeth > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >> Hi Elizabeth, > >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently > >>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > >> > >>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl > >>ed-E > >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of > >>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average > >>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states > >>have minimum wage laws that are higher > >> > >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by > >>state, go to: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > >> > >> Please check my facts in case I misread. > >> > >> -Greg > >> > >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > >> > >> Hi Gregg, > >> > >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these > >>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > >>exactly > >> > >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the > >>calculated > >> > >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high salaries > >>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel > >>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the > >> > >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above the > >>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but > >>if > >> > >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > >> > >> of paying people subminimum wage. > >> > >> Warm regards, > >> Elizabeth > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually > >>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > >> > >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 > >>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less > >>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is > >>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say > >>what the average minimum wage for these workers > >> > >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > >> > >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay > >>workers with disabilities > >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > >> > >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > >> > >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is > >>so > >> > >> high. > >> > >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would > >>post in case others are interested too. > >> > >> -Greg > >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > >> > >> Good afternoon, > >> > >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention > >> > >> for > >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are > >>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > >> > >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and > >> > >> most > >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers > >> > >> with > >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > >> > >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized > >>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > >> > >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the > >>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive > >>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at > >>costs that exceed their fair market value. > >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but > >>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits > >>to create employment opportunities > >> > >> for > >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, > >>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > >> > >> management of > >> > >> these > >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled > >>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output > >>justifying the minimum wage in the market? > >> > >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are > >>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > >> > >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of > >>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the > >>wage to give them > >> > >> the > >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. > >> > >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > >> > >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. > >>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to > >>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but > >>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government > >>contracting should have to > >> > >> fill > >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with > >>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > >> > >> now, > >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > >> > >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > >> > >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights > >>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is > >>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a > >>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > >> > >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are completely > >>correct. The boycott of Good > >> > >> Will > >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us > >> > >> to > >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it > >>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their > >>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost > >>realistically going to > >> > >> lead > >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? > >>I > >> > >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is > >>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker > >>currently makes $1.50 an > >> > >> hour. > >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee > >>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > >> > >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees > >>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > >> This would represent an annual cost increase > >> > >> of > >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > >> > >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > >> > >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor > >>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is > >>changed is bogus and cynical. > >> As I > >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > >> > >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > >> > >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the > >>government pays. > >> And, as > >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the > >>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to > >>support the > >> > >> 70, > >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow > >>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > >> > >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > >> > >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > >>everybody in the employment market, full stop. > >> > >> Sean From dandrews at visi.com Fri Jun 15 10:34:34 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:34:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why can't you forward it -- if you want it done -- and what kind of response are you looking for? Dave At 12:02 AM 6/15/2012, you wrote: >Hello, >Can someone forward this below email to the president of the NFB >please? I'm extremely curious what will be the response. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith >Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:54 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility > >This particular position is with a small but national communications >and public relations agency in the private sector. The company uses >project management software called "Basecamp" and a CMS called >"Sitemason." Based on some more research I've done, it is possible >these platforms are accessible. More likely, these programs are >"partially" accessible which means I might have success with something >yet have tremendous difficulty with something else. > >I just found a review test of Basecamp accessibility with screen >readers; the result? You guessed it. "This Ajax application is usable >by screen-reader users some of the time. They aren't totally shut out, >but it isn't totally easy for them, either." ... Surprise! > >The same conclusion can be drawn about Raiser's Edge, a program I was >asked to use last summer for an internship that I ultimately declined >for another opportunity. As Ashley mentioned, Raiser's Edge is just >one of many extremely popular and important database systems that many >nonprofits use. These programs are essential as well: half assed >accessibility just won't fly when you're dealing with sensitive donor >and gift records. > >The problem with disclosing that you may need to do some work and >testing to use their software efficiently is that you risk watering >the seed of doubt about your ability to do the job. If you've managed >to land an interview with a killer resume and mind blowing cover >letter, researched the company and came with a relevant list of >insightful and thought provoking questions, convinced them that you >can actually do the work, shown incredible initiative and demonstrated >that your blindness will not factor into the job responsibilities, you >are well on your way to decreasing that pesky 70% unemployment rate >among the blind. Then, you find out the company relies on proprietary >software that may or may not work with your accessibility software, >software your employer most likely knows nothing about. Let me try and >test the usability of that software for a couple hours while you >mentally begin to focus on the candidate that doesn't have usability >questions about your company's software before even starting the job. >Admittedly, all of this might be easier with the federal government >and with blindness-related jobs. I have reached out to other blind >professionals in the field with extremely limited success. While I >risk coming off as indifferent and self-centered, surely I cannot be >the only person who notices the irony of the passionate and heated >fight for subminimum wages for Good Will employees on this list while >many of us struggle with basic, fundamental access to higher-paying >jobs. > >I realize there might not be any easy answers. I just really, really >wish there were. > >Brice > >On 6/14/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>Steve, >>well said. Advanced look at the software was what I was suggesting. >>Also, I would guess that online software would work if its text based. If >>you cannot test the software with jaws, maybe if they describe it to you you >> >>will make an educated guess. If the software is using flash or is an adobe >>product, its probably not accessible. >>If it looks like a standard web form with combo boxes, it probably is >>accessible. >> >>Ashley >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Steve Jacobson >>Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:34 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility >> >>Brice, >> >>There is so much software out there that it isn't at all surprising that you >> >>won't get a definitive answer. What kind of job is it? It could be that >>one of our >>other lists may have people who have had experience with it. Is your job >>with a government entity of any kind, or is it a private company? The >>federal >>government and some state governments are governed by laws or regulations >>that require that their software be accessible. If it turns out that it >>isn't, they >>would have a good deal of insentive to work with you.\ >> >>Given the scarcity of jobs these days, I would hesitate to reject a possible >> >>job because you don't know if their software is accessible. I think I would >> >>let >>them know at some point that you may need to do a little work to use their >>software efficiently, and perhaps see if you could get an advanced look at >>it. >>Also, software that you use every day can be a different sort of challenge. >> >>Problems that slow you way down are more serious than with software you >>occasionally use, but learning to use the Window-Eyes Mouse Pointer or the >>JAWS Cursor is less of a problem when you do it all the time. It can >>become >>second nature when you are using that approach to do the same tasks. >> >>It just isn't simple, I'm afraid, and I agree completely that this is >>becoming a bigger and bigger problem. >> >>Best regards, >> >>Steve Jacobson >> >>On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >> >>>So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >>>accessible if they are not currently accessible? >> >>>I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >>>company that uses online software, websites and content management >>>systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >>>screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >>>interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >>>to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >>>of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >>>possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >>>applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >>>with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >>>pressing and concerning questions many of us face. >> >>>I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >>>never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >>>"accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >>>you do? >> >>>Brice >> >>>On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: >>>>Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>>>cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>>> >>>>Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>>>applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>>>close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>>>employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>>> >>>>Dave >>>> >>>>At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>>>>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>>>>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>>>>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>>>>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>>>>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>>>>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>>>>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>>>>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>>>>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>>>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>>>>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>>>>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>>>>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>>>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>>>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>>the only >>>>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>>>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>>>>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>>>>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>>>>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>>>>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>>>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>>>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>>>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>>>>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>>>>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>>>>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>>>>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>>>>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>>>>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>>>>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>>>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>>>>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>>>>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>>>>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>>>>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>>>>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>>>>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>>>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>>option I >>>>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>>change. >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>>>>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>>>>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>>>>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>>>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>>This >>>>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>>>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>>Ashley, >>>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>>>you're >>>>>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>>>>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>>>>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>>>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>>>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>>>>opinion. >>>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>>Kirt >>>>> >>>>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Elizabeth, >>>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>>>> >>>>> paid >>>>> >>>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>>>>pay. I >>>>> >>>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Elizabeth >>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>> >>>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>>>make >>>>>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>>>> >>>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>>>> >>>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>>>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>>>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>>I am >>>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>>> >>>>> Warm regards, >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>>>>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>>ed-E >>>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>>>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>>>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>>> >>>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>>>state, go to: >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>>> >>>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Gregg, >>>>> >>>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>>>>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>>>>exactly >>>>> >>>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>>calculated >>>>> >>>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>>>salaries >>>>>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>>>>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >>>>> >>>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>>>the >>>>>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>>>>if >>>>> >>>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>>>> >>>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>>> >>>>> Warm regards, >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>>>> >>>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>>>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>>>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>>>what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>>> >>>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>>> >>>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>>workers with disabilities >>>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>>> >>>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>>> >>>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>>>>so >>>>> >>>>> high. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>>>post in case others are interested too. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon, >>>>> >>>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>>>attention >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>>> >>>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>> most >>>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>>>workers >>>>> >>>>> with >>>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>>> >>>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>>>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>>> >>>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>>>the >>>>>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>>>>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>>>>costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>>>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>>>to create employment opportunities >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>>> >>>>> management of >>>>> >>>>> these >>>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>>>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>>>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>>> >>>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>>>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>>> >>>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>>>>wage to give them >>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>>> >>>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>>> >>>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>>>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>>>contracting should have to >>>>> >>>>> fill >>>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>>> >>>>> now, >>>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>>> >>>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>>> >>>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>>>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>>>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>>>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>>> >>>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>>>completely >>>>>correct. The boycott of Good >>>>> >>>>> Will >>>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>>realistically going to >>>>> >>>>> lead >>>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>>I >>>>> >>>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>>currently makes $1.50 an >>>>> >>>>> hour. >>>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>>> >>>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>>>>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>>> >>>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>>> >>>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>>>> As I >>>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>>> >>>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>>> >>>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>>government pays. >>>>> And, as >>>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>>support the >>>>> >>>>> 70, >>>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>>>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>>> >>>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>>> >>>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>>>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>>> >>>>> Sean From pyyhkala at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 14:03:31 2012 From: pyyhkala at gmail.com (Mika Pyyhkala) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:03:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention Agenda in Calendar Formats In-Reply-To: References: <4BE97DBF-FE22-48B8-8C59-A29FDBB988F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I have the ICS file, but I cannot find the field to import or add it to my Google Calendar. The help talks about clicking Other Calendars, and then it should reveal an Import Calendar option with in the Google caldndar web interface. However, when I click Other Calendars the only thing I get is an option to add a friends calendar, and it is looking for an email address. Best, Mika On 6/8/12, Tony Olivero wrote: > All: > > Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Here is a comprehensive > article from Google's help system on how to add your gmail account in > the manner I talked about in my original message. > > http://support.google.com/mobile/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=138740 > > I have found that adding my Google account in this way gives me a lot > of flexibility. My mail, contacts, and calendar are all synced with my > phone, and my mail and calendar are, by using Google Calendar Sync, > synced with Outlook on my laptop. (I haven't found an automatic way to > sync contacts between Google and outlook). In addition, I have a > shared calendar as well as a couple additional calendars that are also > automatically synced to my phone. > > Note that you should disable or delete any existing accounts that are > set up as "gmail". > > Hope this helps. > > Tony > > On 5/30/12, Chelsea Page wrote: >> Im in the same boat Marsha. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 30, 2012, at 8:18 AM, "Marsha Drenth" >> wrote: >> >>> Toni, >>> >>> Can you give a quick and easy outline of how to get the convention >>> agenda >>> on >>> an Iphone? Please. Even though I have been using the Iphone for a year >>> now, >>> I still feel like I am a iphone virgin. LOL you can email me off list, >>> marsha.drenth at gmail.com to prevent clogging up the list. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Tony Olivero >>> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 2:48 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; >>> nebraska-students at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Convention Agenda in Calendar Formats >>> >>> All: >>> >>> For those of you who would like to use the convention agenda in >>> something other than Microsoft Word, here are a few different formats >>> that I created after putting all the events on a Google Calendar: >>> >>> iCal (for adding to your Google Calendar, Outlook, or other calendar >>> program): http://j.mp/LYvrXo >>> HTML (view in your browser): http://j.mp/LCiH28 >>> Microsoft Excel: http://j.mp/JIWoxN >>> >>> you can use the iCal link if you use a Google Calendar, or a device >>> like an iPhone or iPad that supports it, to add the calendar to your >>> mobile device. If you are using Google Calendar in a web browser, >>> adding the ical feed will allow you to toggle on and off the display >>> of the agenda. You can also copy events directly to your calendar, and >>> not sync the Agenda to your mobile device, but view it in the browser >>> if you find you need to see what else is happening in addition to your >>> own plans. >>> >>> For those of you using iDevices, it is best if you have your google >>> account added as a Microsoft Exchange account, not a Google Account (I >>> know, it seems strange, but this will allow you to sync mail, >>> contacts, and calendars between your phone and Google without using >>> another app). Once you have done this, you can go to >>> http://m.google.com/sync (from your phone) to control which items are >>> synced to your phone. >>> >>> I know some of this may be confusing if you haven't done it before, so >>> if you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'll certainly try to >>> help. >>> >>> Also, be aware that the Texas affiliate has placed the entire agenda, >>> in an HTML file suitable for computers, mobile phones or notetakers, >>> on their website at http://j.mp/LMtElc >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmail.co >>> m >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/chelseap08%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anthony%40olivero.us >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 15 14:25:05 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:25:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015EE66C655445DB8AFC9DC48B913F5F@OwnerPC> that is right Dave. Whether its before or after you accept the job, at some point it has to be done. -----Original Message----- From: David Andrews Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 6:19 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility At some point you, or somebody else will have to test the programs with assistive technology. That is one of the things we do at MN SSB for our customers seeking work -- and have staff who know how to do it. Unfortunately, at some point it has to be brought up -- and occasionally there are systems that we can't make accessible -- so someone doesn't get a job. Dave At 09:20 PM 6/14/2012, you wrote: >So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >accessible if they are not currently accessible? > >I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >company that uses online software, websites and content management >systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >pressing and concerning questions many of us face. > >I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >"accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >you do? > >Brice > >On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: > > Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently > > cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. > > > > Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be > > applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come > > close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make > > employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. > > > > Dave > > > > At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: > >>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers > >>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If > >>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them > >>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who > >>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's > >>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in > >>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a > >>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the > >>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these > >>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist > >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM > >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask > >>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not > >>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools > >>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should > >>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? > >>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles > >>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know > >>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe > >>the only > >>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through > >>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA > >>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day > >>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a > >>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that > >>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! > >>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level > >>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is > >>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but > >>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or > >>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street > >>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification > >>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even > >>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every > >>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service > >>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the > >>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want > >>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse > >>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how > >>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? > >>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, > >>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax > >>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to > >>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government > >>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive > >>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the > >>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the > >>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe > >>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of > >>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better > >>option I > >>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make > >>change. > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>Behalf Of Sophie Trist > >>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM > >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the > >>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be > >>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected > >>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue > >>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're > >>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. > >>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? > >>This > >>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle > >>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > >>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM > >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >>Ashley, > >> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose > >> you're > >>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes > >>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the > >>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. > >>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one > >>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble > >>opinion. > >> Take it or leave it, > >>Kirt > >> > >>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > >> Elizabeth, > >> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are > >> > >> paid > >> > >> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they > >>pay. I > >> > >> don't think there is a set corporate policy. > >> > >> Ashley > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Elizabeth > >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >> Hi Greg, > >> > >> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you > >> make > >>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am > >> > >> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when > >>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but > >> > >> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the > >>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable > >>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an > >>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the > >>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the > >>information that was cited in the article itself. > >> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. > >>I am > >> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. > >> > >> Warm regards, > >> Elizabeth > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >> Hi Elizabeth, > >> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently > >>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: > >> > >>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl > >>ed-E > >> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of > >>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average > >>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states > >>have minimum wage laws that are higher > >> > >> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by > >>state, go to: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages > >> > >> Please check my facts in case I misread. > >> > >> -Greg > >> > >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > >> > >> Hi Gregg, > >> > >> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these > >>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how > >>exactly > >> > >> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the > >>calculated > >> > >> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high > >> salaries > >>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel > >>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the > >> > >> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above > >> the > >>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but > >>if > >> > >> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue > >> > >> of paying people subminimum wage. > >> > >> Warm regards, > >> Elizabeth > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. > >> > >> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually > >>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually > >> > >> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 > >>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less > >>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is > >>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say > >>what the average minimum wage for these workers > >> > >> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it > >> > >> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay > >>workers with disabilities > >> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that > >> > >> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. > >> > >> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is > >>so > >> > >> high. > >> > >> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would > >>post in case others are interested too. > >> > >> -Greg > >> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: > >> > >> Good afternoon, > >> > >> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media > >> attention > >> > >> for > >> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are > >>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. > >> > >> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest > >> and > >> > >> most > >> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay > >> workers > >> > >> with > >> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the > >> > >> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized > >>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. > >> > >> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with > >> the > >>federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive > >>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at > >>costs that exceed their fair market value. > >> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but > >>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits > >>to create employment opportunities > >> > >> for > >> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, > >>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the > >> > >> management of > >> > >> these > >> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled > >>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output > >>justifying the minimum wage in the market? > >> > >> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are > >>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than > >> > >> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of > >>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the > >>wage to give them > >> > >> the > >> dignity of equal treatment under the law. > >> > >> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per > >> > >> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. > >>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to > >>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but > >>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government > >>contracting should have to > >> > >> fill > >> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with > >>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands > >> > >> now, > >> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. > >> > >> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for > >> > >> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights > >>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is > >>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a > >>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and > >> > >> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are > >> completely > >>correct. The boycott of Good > >> > >> Will > >> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us > >> > >> to > >> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it > >>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their > >>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost > >>realistically going to > >> > >> lead > >> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? > >>I > >> > >> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is > >>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker > >>currently makes $1.50 an > >> > >> hour. > >> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee > >>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an > >> > >> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees > >>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). > >> This would represent an annual cost increase > >> > >> of > >> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a > >> > >> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller > >> > >> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor > >>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is > >>changed is bogus and cynical. > >> As I > >> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their > >> > >> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so > >> > >> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the > >>government pays. > >> And, as > >> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the > >>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to > >>support the > >> > >> 70, > >> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow > >>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that > >> > >> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. > >> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me > >> > >> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to > >>everybody in the employment market, full stop. > >> > >> Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 14:52:47 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 07:52:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I'd like to know what they will say when this is such a big issue here in NABS, one of the more important sections of the NFB. I don't feel comfortable forwarding something to him because not only is my contact with him limited to nothing, but I'm not yet a member of the NFB, so it would be a little strange coming from someone who isn't really a member. This is a problem that needs to be given an answer if all the skills in the world can't help one get a job what hope is there for the massive employment to start going down? Especially because it seems as if lots of businesses require these pieces of software, even though other programs are better. I think we should get the whole NFB in on this. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: David Andrews Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 3:34 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility Why can't you forward it -- if you want it done -- and what kind of response are you looking for? Dave At 12:02 AM 6/15/2012, you wrote: >Hello, >Can someone forward this below email to the president of the NFB please? >I'm extremely curious what will be the response. >Thanks, > >Brandon Keith Biggs >-----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith >Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:54 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility > >This particular position is with a small but national communications >and public relations agency in the private sector. The company uses >project management software called "Basecamp" and a CMS called >"Sitemason." Based on some more research I've done, it is possible >these platforms are accessible. More likely, these programs are >"partially" accessible which means I might have success with something >yet have tremendous difficulty with something else. > >I just found a review test of Basecamp accessibility with screen >readers; the result? You guessed it. "This Ajax application is usable >by screen-reader users some of the time. They aren't totally shut out, >but it isn't totally easy for them, either." ... Surprise! > >The same conclusion can be drawn about Raiser's Edge, a program I was >asked to use last summer for an internship that I ultimately declined >for another opportunity. As Ashley mentioned, Raiser's Edge is just >one of many extremely popular and important database systems that many >nonprofits use. These programs are essential as well: half assed >accessibility just won't fly when you're dealing with sensitive donor >and gift records. > >The problem with disclosing that you may need to do some work and >testing to use their software efficiently is that you risk watering >the seed of doubt about your ability to do the job. If you've managed >to land an interview with a killer resume and mind blowing cover >letter, researched the company and came with a relevant list of >insightful and thought provoking questions, convinced them that you >can actually do the work, shown incredible initiative and demonstrated >that your blindness will not factor into the job responsibilities, you >are well on your way to decreasing that pesky 70% unemployment rate >among the blind. Then, you find out the company relies on proprietary >software that may or may not work with your accessibility software, >software your employer most likely knows nothing about. Let me try and >test the usability of that software for a couple hours while you >mentally begin to focus on the candidate that doesn't have usability >questions about your company's software before even starting the job. >Admittedly, all of this might be easier with the federal government >and with blindness-related jobs. I have reached out to other blind >professionals in the field with extremely limited success. While I >risk coming off as indifferent and self-centered, surely I cannot be >the only person who notices the irony of the passionate and heated >fight for subminimum wages for Good Will employees on this list while >many of us struggle with basic, fundamental access to higher-paying >jobs. > >I realize there might not be any easy answers. I just really, really >wish there were. > >Brice > >On 6/14/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>Steve, >>well said. Advanced look at the software was what I was suggesting. >>Also, I would guess that online software would work if its text based. If >>you cannot test the software with jaws, maybe if they describe it to you >>you >> >>will make an educated guess. If the software is using flash or is an adobe >>product, its probably not accessible. >>If it looks like a standard web form with combo boxes, it probably is >>accessible. >> >>Ashley >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Steve Jacobson >>Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:34 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility >> >>Brice, >> >>There is so much software out there that it isn't at all surprising that >>you >> >>won't get a definitive answer. What kind of job is it? It could be that >>one of our >>other lists may have people who have had experience with it. Is your job >>with a government entity of any kind, or is it a private company? The >>federal >>government and some state governments are governed by laws or regulations >>that require that their software be accessible. If it turns out that it >>isn't, they >>would have a good deal of insentive to work with you.\ >> >>Given the scarcity of jobs these days, I would hesitate to reject a >>possible >> >>job because you don't know if their software is accessible. I think I >>would >> >>let >>them know at some point that you may need to do a little work to use their >>software efficiently, and perhaps see if you could get an advanced look at >>it. >>Also, software that you use every day can be a different sort of >>challenge. >> >>Problems that slow you way down are more serious than with software you >>occasionally use, but learning to use the Window-Eyes Mouse Pointer or the >>JAWS Cursor is less of a problem when you do it all the time. It can >>become >>second nature when you are using that approach to do the same tasks. >> >>It just isn't simple, I'm afraid, and I agree completely that this is >>becoming a bigger and bigger problem. >> >>Best regards, >> >>Steve Jacobson >> >>On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >> >>>So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >>>accessible if they are not currently accessible? >> >>>I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >>>company that uses online software, websites and content management >>>systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >>>screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >>>interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >>>to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >>>of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >>>possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >>>applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >>>with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >>>pressing and concerning questions many of us face. >> >>>I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >>>never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >>>"accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >>>you do? >> >>>Brice >> >>>On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: >>>>Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>>>cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>>> >>>>Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>>>applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>>>close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>>>employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>>> >>>>Dave >>>> >>>>At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>>>employers >>>>>will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>>>>we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push >>>>>them >>>>>towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>>>>may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>>>>technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA >>>>>in >>>>>the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>>>>client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>>>>field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>>>>people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>>>for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >>>>>not >>>>>affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>>>>of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>>>>institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>>>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>>>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>>the only >>>>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>>>reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the >>>>>ADA >>>>>and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every >>>>>day >>>>>who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>>>>program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>>>>employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>>>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>>>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>>>from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >>>>>even >>>>>interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>>>>day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>>>>job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>>>>Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>>>>their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>>>>that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>>>>do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>>>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>>>to >>>>>hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>>>government >>>>>pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>>>>off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>>>>corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>>>>quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>>>>it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>>>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>>option I >>>>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>>change. >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>>>rejected >>>>>or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>>>>reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>>>>worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>>>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>>This >>>>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>>>for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>>Ashley, >>>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>>>you're >>>>>probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>>>>sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>>>>minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that >>>>>straight. >>>>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>>>of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>>>>opinion. >>>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>>Kirt >>>>> >>>>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Elizabeth, >>>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>>> are >>>>> >>>>> paid >>>>> >>>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>>>>pay. I >>>>> >>>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Elizabeth >>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>> >>>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>>>make >>>>>reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>>>> >>>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>>>> >>>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>>>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>>>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>>I am >>>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>>> >>>>> Warm regards, >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>>> recently >>>>>posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>>ed-E >>>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>>>wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>>>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>>> >>>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>>>state, go to: >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>>> >>>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Gregg, >>>>> >>>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>>> these >>>>>employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>>>>exactly >>>>> >>>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>>calculated >>>>> >>>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>>>salaries >>>>>of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>>>>out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or >>>>>the >>>>> >>>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>>>the >>>>>national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>>>>if >>>>> >>>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>>>> >>>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>>> >>>>> Warm regards, >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>>>> >>>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>>>than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>>>actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>>>what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>>> >>>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>>> >>>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>>workers with disabilities >>>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>>> >>>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>>> >>>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>>> is >>>>>so >>>>> >>>>> high. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>>>post in case others are interested too. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon, >>>>> >>>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>>>attention >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>>> >>>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>>>and >>>>> >>>>> most >>>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>>>workers >>>>> >>>>> with >>>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>>> >>>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>>>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>>> >>>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>>>the >>>>>federal government, providing goods and services through >>>>>non-competitive >>>>>set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided >>>>>at >>>>>costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>>>the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>>>to create employment opportunities >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>>> >>>>> management of >>>>> >>>>> these >>>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>>>individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>>>justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>>> >>>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>>>incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>>> >>>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>>>>wage to give them >>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>>> >>>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>>> >>>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>>>organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>>>contracting should have to >>>>> >>>>> fill >>>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>>> >>>>> now, >>>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>>> >>>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>>> >>>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>>> rights >>>>>organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>>>reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>>>law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>>> >>>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>>>completely >>>>>correct. The boycott of Good >>>>> >>>>> Will >>>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>>>> us >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>>realistically going to >>>>> >>>>> lead >>>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>>I >>>>> >>>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>>currently makes $1.50 an >>>>> >>>>> hour. >>>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>>> >>>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>>> employees >>>>>of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>>> >>>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>>> >>>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>>>> As I >>>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>>> >>>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>>> >>>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>>government pays. >>>>> And, as >>>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>>support the >>>>> >>>>> 70, >>>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>>>sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>>> >>>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>>> >>>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>>>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>>> >>>>> Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:26:32 2012 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 13:26:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Audio Description In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35CF79A0-9C33-48D4-ADD1-7FD4C4043418@gmail.com> Do I need anything to get this? I look forward to described shows Sent from my iPhone On Jun 15, 2012, at 6:05 AM, David Andrews wrote: > > Beginning July 1, ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC, plus the top five cable networks will begin providing audio descriptions of some of their programming for blind or sight-impaired viewers. The shows to be described range from ABC's Modern Family to CBS's NCIS to Nickelodeon's Dora the Explorer to USA's Royal Pains. > > For now, stations in the top 25 markets and cable systems with 50,000 or more subs will be required to offer about four hours a week of the new service. The number of stations and hours will gradually increase. > > Starting July 1, the country’s 21.5 million visually impaired people will be able to enjoy TV more than ever before. > > On that day, the Big Four broadcast networks and the top five-rated cable networks will begin offering four hours a week of so-called video descriptions that clue in blind and partially sighted viewers on what's going on when the characters aren't talking. The descriptions, audible only to viewers who want them to be audible, are squeezed in between the dialog. > > Video descriptions have been part of broadcasting, cable, home video, but never to the extent on TV as they will be beginning next month. > > It's not altruism driving the surge in descriptions. They were mandated by Congress in the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act of 2010. > > According to the FCC's implementing rules, the Big Four O&Os and affiliates in the top 25 markets will have to air 50 hours each quarter ­ or roughly four hours a week ­ of described programming. > > Cable and satellite systems with at least 50,000 subscribers have to offer the same amount of described programming for the top five-rated cable networks ­ currently Disney, Nickelodeon, TBS, TNT and USA. > > And with just weeks to go before the deadline, the described programming plans of nine affected networks are shaping up. > > ABC’s plan is to provide descriptions on some of its Tuesday and Wednesday shows. This summer, those shows include sitcoms Last Man Standing, The Middle, Suburgatory, Modern Family, Happy Endings and Don't Trust the B---- in Apt. 23. > > In the fall, ABC will likely include most of those shows and new sitcom The Neighbors and new drama Nashville. > > CBS has been providing audio descriptions for several programs since 2002. The lineup is CSI, Criminal Minds, NCIS, NCIS: Los Angeles, plus movies and miniseries. > > NBC has broadcast a slew of shows with descriptions, including the Betty White reality show Off Their Rockers, drama Grimm and the summer series Saving Hope. Described sitcoms include The Office, Up All Night and Parks and Recreation. > > At Fox, The Simpsons has been audio described for several years. Beyond the animated sitcom, Fox isn't prepared to say what it would be offering. > > Disney Channel's described shows will include hit sitcoms Jessie, A.N.T. Farm and the animated Phineas and Ferb. > > Nickelodeon will offer descriptions for some of its biggest hits, like the long-running animated Dora the Explorer and preschool educational show Team Umizoomi. > > Turner Broadcasting will have described movies as well as TV series. Among the series: TNT’s The Closer and TBS’s Tyler Perry comedies House of Payne and For Better or Worse. > > USA’s described programs will include off-network shows NCIS and Law & Order: SVU, plus originals like Royal Pains and Suits. > > “My hope is that more and more networks will embrace these accessibility initiatives,” says Joel Snyder, president of Audio Description Associates. He serves as director of the American Council of the Blind’s audio description project and is an adviser to the FCC. > > “If they do it right, they'll find ways to make money from it. If they make their shows accessible to these folks, there is a bigger market for advertisers to sell their products.” > > For the most part, video-described programs won't include live shows or news. The networks, which are providing most of this content to their affiliates, need time to write description scripts for voice artists to record. > > “It takes longer to get that done than closed captioning,” says one network executive. “It also requires us to look at how our post-production schedules are set up. We have to work very closely with the folks at the post-production houses to make sure we get the programming to our vendors with sufficient time to get the video description correct.” > > Producing the descriptions costs between $2,000 to $4,000 per hour. > > The networks and some associations for the blind are helping to ensure that people with vision problems know that descriptions are coming. > > “It’s great for the networks to comply, but what’s more important is getting the information out to folks,” says Helena Berger, EVP-COO of the American Association of People with Disabilities. She is also a member of Comcast-NBCUniversal’s joint diversity council. > > “What we can do on our end at AAPD is to use our communication channels, like our newsletter, our website and social media to get the word out to the community.” > > Some of the networks are creating logos and audio tones so that people with vision problems know when a program has audio descriptions. So far, there isn't an industry standard. > > And TV listing providers like Tribune Media Services will provide data to programming services to let them know if a program is audio-described. Then, it’s up to individual cable systems to add symbols or sounds to their on-screen listings. > > These described programs are the culmination of a 12-year battle by the FCC and groups such as the Audio Description Institute. They thought they had won the battle in 2000 when the FCC adopted rules similar to the 2010 act, but a court agreed with broadcasters that the agency had overstepped its authority. > > Now backed by law, the new FCC rules gradually expand the description obligations to other TV stations. By July 1, 2015, major network affiliates in the top 60 markets will have to broadcast the descriptions. The FCC may require additional stations to air descriptions at a rate of 10 markets a year if it deems the cost is reasonable. > > According to broadcasters, it costs stations anywhere from $10,000 and $25,000 to install the gear necessary to handle the extra audio channel. > > Just because someone has a disability doesn't mean they don't want to be included in life,” says Debra Ruh, chief marketing officer at SSB Bart Group, a firm that helps companies make their computer services and websites fully compliant and accessible to people with disabilities. “Part of participating in life is being able to experience television. TV is a very important part of our culture.” > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:40:05 2012 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:40:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E2A4807-D940-4D6C-9E3D-2E6582041FC1@gmail.com> I was part of a research project that used Alfresco, an alternative to Basecamp. For general navigation of the site, I used jaws. To edit content in a discussion forum or wiki, I used system access. And to download/upload documents, I used NVDA. Switching screen readers was the easiest and sometimes the only way to accomplish these various tasks. It's a pain, and failing to provide accessible systems is discriminatory, but if you're at least familiar with different screen readers, you may find that one will allow you to do things that the other won't. Marc On 2012-06-14, at 9:54 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > This particular position is with a small but national communications > and public relations agency in the private sector. The company uses > project management software called "Basecamp" and a CMS called > "Sitemason." Based on some more research I've done, it is possible > these platforms are accessible. More likely, these programs are > "partially" accessible which means I might have success with something > yet have tremendous difficulty with something else. > > I just found a review test of Basecamp accessibility with screen > readers; the result? You guessed it. "This Ajax application is usable > by screen-reader users some of the time. They aren't totally shut out, > but it isn't totally easy for them, either." ... Surprise! > > The same conclusion can be drawn about Raiser's Edge, a program I was > asked to use last summer for an internship that I ultimately declined > for another opportunity. As Ashley mentioned, Raiser's Edge is just > one of many extremely popular and important database systems that many > nonprofits use. These programs are essential as well: half assed > accessibility just won't fly when you're dealing with sensitive donor > and gift records. > > The problem with disclosing that you may need to do some work and > testing to use their software efficiently is that you risk watering > the seed of doubt about your ability to do the job. If you've managed > to land an interview with a killer resume and mind blowing cover > letter, researched the company and came with a relevant list of > insightful and thought provoking questions, convinced them that you > can actually do the work, shown incredible initiative and demonstrated > that your blindness will not factor into the job responsibilities, you > are well on your way to decreasing that pesky 70% unemployment rate > among the blind. Then, you find out the company relies on proprietary > software that may or may not work with your accessibility software, > software your employer most likely knows nothing about. Let me try and > test the usability of that software for a couple hours while you > mentally begin to focus on the candidate that doesn't have usability > questions about your company's software before even starting the job. > Admittedly, all of this might be easier with the federal government > and with blindness-related jobs. I have reached out to other blind > professionals in the field with extremely limited success. While I > risk coming off as indifferent and self-centered, surely I cannot be > the only person who notices the irony of the passionate and heated > fight for subminimum wages for Good Will employees on this list while > many of us struggle with basic, fundamental access to higher-paying > jobs. > > I realize there might not be any easy answers. I just really, really > wish there were. > > Brice > > On 6/14/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Steve, >> well said. Advanced look at the software was what I was suggesting. >> Also, I would guess that online software would work if its text based. If >> you cannot test the software with jaws, maybe if they describe it to you you >> >> will make an educated guess. If the software is using flash or is an adobe >> product, its probably not accessible. >> If it looks like a standard web form with combo boxes, it probably is >> accessible. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steve Jacobson >> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:34 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility >> >> Brice, >> >> There is so much software out there that it isn't at all surprising that you >> >> won't get a definitive answer. What kind of job is it? It could be that >> one of our >> other lists may have people who have had experience with it. Is your job >> with a government entity of any kind, or is it a private company? The >> federal >> government and some state governments are governed by laws or regulations >> that require that their software be accessible. If it turns out that it >> isn't, they >> would have a good deal of insentive to work with you.\ >> >> Given the scarcity of jobs these days, I would hesitate to reject a possible >> >> job because you don't know if their software is accessible. I think I would >> >> let >> them know at some point that you may need to do a little work to use their >> software efficiently, and perhaps see if you could get an advanced look at >> it. >> Also, software that you use every day can be a different sort of challenge. >> >> Problems that slow you way down are more serious than with software you >> occasionally use, but learning to use the Window-Eyes Mouse Pointer or the >> JAWS Cursor is less of a problem when you do it all the time. It can >> become >> second nature when you are using that approach to do the same tasks. >> >> It just isn't simple, I'm afraid, and I agree completely that this is >> becoming a bigger and bigger problem. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >> >>> So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >>> accessible if they are not currently accessible? >> >>> I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >>> company that uses online software, websites and content management >>> systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >>> screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >>> interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >>> to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >>> of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >>> possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >>> applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >>> with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >>> pressing and concerning questions many of us face. >> >>> I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >>> never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >>> "accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >>> you do? >> >>> Brice >> >>> On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: >>>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>>> >>>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>> I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>>>> will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>>>> we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>>>> towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>>>> may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>>>> technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>>>> the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>>>> client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>>>> field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>>>> people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>>> for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>>>> affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>>>> of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>>>> institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>>>> I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>>>> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>>> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>> the only >>>>> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>>> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>>>> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>>>> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>>>> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>>>> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>>>> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>>> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>>> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>>>> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>>> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>>>> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>>>> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>>>> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>>>> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>>>> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>>>> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>>>> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>>>> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>>> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>>> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>>>> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>>>> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>>>> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>>>> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>>>> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>>>> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>>>> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>> option I >>>>> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>> change. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>>>> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>>>> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>>>> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>>>> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>> This >>>>> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>>> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley, >>>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>>> you're >>>>> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>>>> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>>>> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>>>> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>>> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>>>> opinion. >>>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Elizabeth, >>>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>>>> >>>>> paid >>>>> >>>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>>>> pay. I >>>>> >>>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Elizabeth >>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>> >>>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>>> make >>>>> reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>>>> >>>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>>>> >>>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>>>> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>>>> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>> information that was cited in the article itself. >>>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>> I am >>>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>>> >>>>> Warm regards, >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>>>> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>> ed-E >>>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>>> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>>>> have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>>> >>>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>>> state, go to: >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>>> >>>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Gregg, >>>>> >>>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>>>> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>>>> exactly >>>>> >>>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>> calculated >>>>> >>>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>>> salaries >>>>> of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>>>> out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >>>>> >>>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>>> the >>>>> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>>>> if >>>>> >>>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>>>> >>>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>>> >>>>> Warm regards, >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>>>> >>>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>>> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>>> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>>> what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>>> >>>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>>> >>>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>> workers with disabilities >>>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>>> >>>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>>> >>>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>>>> so >>>>> >>>>> high. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>>> post in case others are interested too. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon, >>>>> >>>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>>> attention >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>>> >>>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> most >>>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>>> workers >>>>> >>>>> with >>>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>>> >>>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>>>> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>>> >>>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>>> the >>>>> federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>>>> set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>>>> costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>>> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>>> to create employment opportunities >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>>> >>>>> management of >>>>> >>>>> these >>>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>>> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>>> >>>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>>> >>>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>>> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>>>> wage to give them >>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>>> >>>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>>> >>>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>>> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>>> contracting should have to >>>>> >>>>> fill >>>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>>> >>>>> now, >>>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>>> >>>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>>> >>>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>>> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>>> >>>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>>> completely >>>>> correct. The boycott of Good >>>>> >>>>> Will >>>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>> realistically going to >>>>> >>>>> lead >>>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>> I >>>>> >>>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>> currently makes $1.50 an >>>>> >>>>> hour. >>>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>>> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>>> >>>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>>>> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>>> >>>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>>> >>>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>> changed is bogus and cynical. >>>>> As I >>>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>>> >>>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>>> >>>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>> government pays. >>>>> And, as >>>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>> support the >>>>> >>>>> 70, >>>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>>> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>>> >>>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>>> >>>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>>>> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 15 17:55:09 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 13:55:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: <6E2A4807-D940-4D6C-9E3D-2E6582041FC1@gmail.com> References: <6E2A4807-D940-4D6C-9E3D-2E6582041FC1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2B959AFF5B394BDD90829328BB698643@OwnerPC> but what employer will pay for two screen readers? -----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 1:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility I was part of a research project that used Alfresco, an alternative to Basecamp. For general navigation of the site, I used jaws. To edit content in a discussion forum or wiki, I used system access. And to download/upload documents, I used NVDA. Switching screen readers was the easiest and sometimes the only way to accomplish these various tasks. It's a pain, and failing to provide accessible systems is discriminatory, but if you're at least familiar with different screen readers, you may find that one will allow you to do things that the other won't. Marc On 2012-06-14, at 9:54 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > This particular position is with a small but national communications > and public relations agency in the private sector. The company uses > project management software called "Basecamp" and a CMS called > "Sitemason." Based on some more research I've done, it is possible > these platforms are accessible. More likely, these programs are > "partially" accessible which means I might have success with something > yet have tremendous difficulty with something else. > > I just found a review test of Basecamp accessibility with screen > readers; the result? You guessed it. "This Ajax application is usable > by screen-reader users some of the time. They aren't totally shut out, > but it isn't totally easy for them, either." ... Surprise! > > The same conclusion can be drawn about Raiser's Edge, a program I was > asked to use last summer for an internship that I ultimately declined > for another opportunity. As Ashley mentioned, Raiser's Edge is just > one of many extremely popular and important database systems that many > nonprofits use. These programs are essential as well: half assed > accessibility just won't fly when you're dealing with sensitive donor > and gift records. > > The problem with disclosing that you may need to do some work and > testing to use their software efficiently is that you risk watering > the seed of doubt about your ability to do the job. If you've managed > to land an interview with a killer resume and mind blowing cover > letter, researched the company and came with a relevant list of > insightful and thought provoking questions, convinced them that you > can actually do the work, shown incredible initiative and demonstrated > that your blindness will not factor into the job responsibilities, you > are well on your way to decreasing that pesky 70% unemployment rate > among the blind. Then, you find out the company relies on proprietary > software that may or may not work with your accessibility software, > software your employer most likely knows nothing about. Let me try and > test the usability of that software for a couple hours while you > mentally begin to focus on the candidate that doesn't have usability > questions about your company's software before even starting the job. > Admittedly, all of this might be easier with the federal government > and with blindness-related jobs. I have reached out to other blind > professionals in the field with extremely limited success. While I > risk coming off as indifferent and self-centered, surely I cannot be > the only person who notices the irony of the passionate and heated > fight for subminimum wages for Good Will employees on this list while > many of us struggle with basic, fundamental access to higher-paying > jobs. > > I realize there might not be any easy answers. I just really, really > wish there were. > > Brice > > On 6/14/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Steve, >> well said. Advanced look at the software was what I was suggesting. >> Also, I would guess that online software would work if its text based. If >> you cannot test the software with jaws, maybe if they describe it to you >> you >> >> will make an educated guess. If the software is using flash or is an >> adobe >> product, its probably not accessible. >> If it looks like a standard web form with combo boxes, it probably is >> accessible. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steve Jacobson >> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:34 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility >> >> Brice, >> >> There is so much software out there that it isn't at all surprising that >> you >> >> won't get a definitive answer. What kind of job is it? It could be that >> one of our >> other lists may have people who have had experience with it. Is your job >> with a government entity of any kind, or is it a private company? The >> federal >> government and some state governments are governed by laws or regulations >> that require that their software be accessible. If it turns out that it >> isn't, they >> would have a good deal of insentive to work with you.\ >> >> Given the scarcity of jobs these days, I would hesitate to reject a >> possible >> >> job because you don't know if their software is accessible. I think I >> would >> >> let >> them know at some point that you may need to do a little work to use >> their >> software efficiently, and perhaps see if you could get an advanced look >> at >> it. >> Also, software that you use every day can be a different sort of >> challenge. >> >> Problems that slow you way down are more serious than with software you >> occasionally use, but learning to use the Window-Eyes Mouse Pointer or >> the >> JAWS Cursor is less of a problem when you do it all the time. It can >> become >> second nature when you are using that approach to do the same tasks. >> >> It just isn't simple, I'm afraid, and I agree completely that this is >> becoming a bigger and bigger problem. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >> >>> So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >>> accessible if they are not currently accessible? >> >>> I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >>> company that uses online software, websites and content management >>> systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >>> screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >>> interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >>> to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >>> of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >>> possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >>> applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >>> with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >>> pressing and concerning questions many of us face. >> >>> I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >>> never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >>> "accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >>> you do? >> >>> Brice >> >>> On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: >>>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>>> >>>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>> I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>>> employers >>>>> will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. >>>>> If >>>>> we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push >>>>> them >>>>> towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now >>>>> who >>>>> may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>>>> technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA >>>>> in >>>>> the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>>>> client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>>>> field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>>>> people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>>> for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are >>>>> not >>>>> affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the >>>>> schools >>>>> of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we >>>>> should >>>>> institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>>>> I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>>> hurdles >>>>> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I >>>>> know >>>>> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>> the only >>>>> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>>> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the >>>>> ADA >>>>> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every >>>>> day >>>>> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running >>>>> a >>>>> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>>>> employers are still purchasing this type of software is >>>>> discriminatory! >>>>> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>>> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>>> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>>> but >>>>> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>>> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will >>>>> even >>>>> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>>>> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer >>>>> service >>>>> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with >>>>> the >>>>> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>>>> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>>>> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>>>> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>>>> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>>> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>>> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>>> to >>>>> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>>> government >>>>> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill >>>>> thrive >>>>> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>>>> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>>>> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>>>> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>>>> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>> option I >>>>> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>> change. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>>> rejected >>>>> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>>>> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because >>>>> we're >>>>> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>>>> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>> This >>>>> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>>> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley, >>>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>>> you're >>>>> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott >>>>> makes >>>>> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>>>> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that >>>>> straight. >>>>> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>>> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>>> humble >>>>> opinion. >>>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Elizabeth, >>>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>>>> >>>>> paid >>>>> >>>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>>>> pay. I >>>>> >>>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Elizabeth >>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>> >>>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>>> make >>>>> reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>>>> >>>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>>>> >>>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>>> considerable >>>>> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>>> the >>>>> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>> information that was cited in the article itself. >>>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>> I am >>>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>>> >>>>> Warm regards, >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>>>> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>> ed-E >>>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>>> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many >>>>> states >>>>> have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>>> >>>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>>> state, go to: >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>>> >>>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Gregg, >>>>> >>>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>>>> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>>>> exactly >>>>> >>>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>> calculated >>>>> >>>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>>> salaries >>>>> of those who may hold management positions which in effect would >>>>> cancel >>>>> out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>>> the >>>>> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>>>> if >>>>> >>>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>>>> >>>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>>> >>>>> Warm regards, >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>> >>>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>>> actually >>>>> >>>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>>> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>>> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>>> what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>>> >>>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>>> >>>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>> workers with disabilities >>>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>>> >>>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>>> >>>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>>>> so >>>>> >>>>> high. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>>> post in case others are interested too. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good afternoon, >>>>> >>>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>>> attention >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>>> >>>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> most >>>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>>> workers >>>>> >>>>> with >>>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>>> >>>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>>>> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>>> >>>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>>> the >>>>> federal government, providing goods and services through >>>>> non-competitive >>>>> set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided >>>>> at >>>>> costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>>> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>>> to create employment opportunities >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>>> >>>>> management of >>>>> >>>>> these >>>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>>> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>>> >>>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>>> >>>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>>> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>>> the >>>>> wage to give them >>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>>> >>>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>>> >>>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>>> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>>> contracting should have to >>>>> >>>>> fill >>>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>>> >>>>> now, >>>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>>> >>>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>>> >>>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>>> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>>> >>>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>>> completely >>>>> correct. The boycott of Good >>>>> >>>>> Will >>>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>> realistically going to >>>>> >>>>> lead >>>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>> I >>>>> >>>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>> currently makes $1.50 an >>>>> >>>>> hour. >>>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>>> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>>> >>>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>>>> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>>> >>>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>>> >>>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>> changed is bogus and cynical. >>>>> As I >>>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>>> >>>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>>> >>>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>> government pays. >>>>> And, as >>>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>> support the >>>>> >>>>> 70, >>>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>>> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>>> >>>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>>> >>>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>>>> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 18:13:16 2012 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 12:13:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility In-Reply-To: <2B959AFF5B394BDD90829328BB698643@OwnerPC> References: <6E2A4807-D940-4D6C-9E3D-2E6582041FC1@gmail.com> <2B959AFF5B394BDD90829328BB698643@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <0F27E3C3-3D4A-403B-B6C2-FB7B3622EFF8@gmail.com> NVDA and SAToGo are both free. Marc On 2012-06-15, at 11:55 AM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > but what employer will pay for two screen readers? > > -----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 1:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility > > I was part of a research project that used Alfresco, an alternative to Basecamp. > > For general navigation of the site, I used jaws. To edit content in a discussion forum or wiki, I used system access. And to download/upload documents, I used NVDA. Switching screen readers was the easiest and sometimes the only way to accomplish these various tasks. > > It's a pain, and failing to provide accessible systems is discriminatory, but if you're at least familiar with different screen readers, you may find that one will allow you to do things that the other won't. > > Marc > On 2012-06-14, at 9:54 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > >> This particular position is with a small but national communications >> and public relations agency in the private sector. The company uses >> project management software called "Basecamp" and a CMS called >> "Sitemason." Based on some more research I've done, it is possible >> these platforms are accessible. More likely, these programs are >> "partially" accessible which means I might have success with something >> yet have tremendous difficulty with something else. >> >> I just found a review test of Basecamp accessibility with screen >> readers; the result? You guessed it. "This Ajax application is usable >> by screen-reader users some of the time. They aren't totally shut out, >> but it isn't totally easy for them, either." ... Surprise! >> >> The same conclusion can be drawn about Raiser's Edge, a program I was >> asked to use last summer for an internship that I ultimately declined >> for another opportunity. As Ashley mentioned, Raiser's Edge is just >> one of many extremely popular and important database systems that many >> nonprofits use. These programs are essential as well: half assed >> accessibility just won't fly when you're dealing with sensitive donor >> and gift records. >> >> The problem with disclosing that you may need to do some work and >> testing to use their software efficiently is that you risk watering >> the seed of doubt about your ability to do the job. If you've managed >> to land an interview with a killer resume and mind blowing cover >> letter, researched the company and came with a relevant list of >> insightful and thought provoking questions, convinced them that you >> can actually do the work, shown incredible initiative and demonstrated >> that your blindness will not factor into the job responsibilities, you >> are well on your way to decreasing that pesky 70% unemployment rate >> among the blind. Then, you find out the company relies on proprietary >> software that may or may not work with your accessibility software, >> software your employer most likely knows nothing about. Let me try and >> test the usability of that software for a couple hours while you >> mentally begin to focus on the candidate that doesn't have usability >> questions about your company's software before even starting the job. >> Admittedly, all of this might be easier with the federal government >> and with blindness-related jobs. I have reached out to other blind >> professionals in the field with extremely limited success. While I >> risk coming off as indifferent and self-centered, surely I cannot be >> the only person who notices the irony of the passionate and heated >> fight for subminimum wages for Good Will employees on this list while >> many of us struggle with basic, fundamental access to higher-paying >> jobs. >> >> I realize there might not be any easy answers. I just really, really >> wish there were. >> >> Brice >> >> On 6/14/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Steve, >>> well said. Advanced look at the software was what I was suggesting. >>> Also, I would guess that online software would work if its text based. If >>> you cannot test the software with jaws, maybe if they describe it to you you >>> >>> will make an educated guess. If the software is using flash or is an adobe >>> product, its probably not accessible. >>> If it looks like a standard web form with combo boxes, it probably is >>> accessible. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Steve Jacobson >>> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:34 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Employment Accessibility >>> >>> Brice, >>> >>> There is so much software out there that it isn't at all surprising that you >>> >>> won't get a definitive answer. What kind of job is it? It could be that >>> one of our >>> other lists may have people who have had experience with it. Is your job >>> with a government entity of any kind, or is it a private company? The >>> federal >>> government and some state governments are governed by laws or regulations >>> that require that their software be accessible. If it turns out that it >>> isn't, they >>> would have a good deal of insentive to work with you.\ >>> >>> Given the scarcity of jobs these days, I would hesitate to reject a possible >>> >>> job because you don't know if their software is accessible. I think I would >>> >>> let >>> them know at some point that you may need to do a little work to use their >>> software efficiently, and perhaps see if you could get an advanced look at >>> it. >>> Also, software that you use every day can be a different sort of challenge. >>> >>> Problems that slow you way down are more serious than with software you >>> occasionally use, but learning to use the Window-Eyes Mouse Pointer or the >>> JAWS Cursor is less of a problem when you do it all the time. It can >>> become >>> second nature when you are using that approach to do the same tasks. >>> >>> It just isn't simple, I'm afraid, and I agree completely that this is >>> becoming a bigger and bigger problem. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:20:43 -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >>> >>>> So, what are your options for making employment software and websites >>>> accessible if they are not currently accessible? >>> >>>> I'm in the third round of interviews for an incredible position with a >>>> company that uses online software, websites and content management >>>> systems for everything and I am not sure if they are accessible with >>>> screen readers. After a couple of well disguised questions during the >>>> interview, I managed to obtain the names of programs employees rely on >>>> to share, post, create and manage information -- and I've never heard >>>> of them. Stressing over "will JAWS work with this?" or "how can I >>>> possibly access this?" should ABSOLUTELY NOT be something blind >>>> applicants have to deal with in addition to everything else that comes >>>> with finding a job after college. And yet, it's one of the most >>>> pressing and concerning questions many of us face. >>> >>>> I'm genuinely curious: what's the best way to handle this? If you've >>>> never heard of the programs and Googling the software name plus >>>> "accessibility" or "JAWS" yields nothing, what can you do? What should >>>> you do? >>> >>>> Brice >>> >>>> On 6/13/12, David Andrews wrote: >>>>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>>>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>>>> >>>>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>>>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>>>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>>>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>>> I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all employers >>>>>> will be using Apple products and many jobs will become accessible. If >>>>>> we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, it might push them >>>>>> towards the accessibility conversion. I have two clients right now who >>>>>> may get fired because JAWS isn't working well with the employer's >>>>>> technology. This is a form of discrimination and it violates the ADA in >>>>>> the same way that inaccessible web cites violate the ADA. I have a >>>>>> client who was denied a job interview even though he's worked in the >>>>>> field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. All of these >>>>>> people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA were enforced. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers ask >>>>>> for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who are not >>>>>> affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of the schools >>>>>> of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, maybe we should >>>>>> institute a program where we payed them to install acessible programs? >>>>>> I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles >>>>>> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>>>> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>>> the only >>>>>> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through >>>>>> reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form of the ADA >>>>>> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with clients every day >>>>>> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a >>>>>> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The fact that >>>>>> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory! >>>>>> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>>>> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>>>> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but >>>>>> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>>> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>>> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification >>>>>> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even >>>>>> interview them. I'm working in this field and I see that happen every >>>>>> day. If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service >>>>>> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the >>>>>> Lighthouse?" The reason that companies do this is because they want >>>>>> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse >>>>>> that the blind person has the skills for the job. My question is, how >>>>>> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills? >>>>>> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>>>> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>>>> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me to >>>>>> hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our government >>>>>> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive >>>>>> off of this. In job development exercises we are taught to market the >>>>>> corporate tax credit, not the client. How is this any better than the >>>>>> quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe >>>>>> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of >>>>>> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>>> option I >>>>>> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>>> change. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>>> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>>> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected >>>>>> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue >>>>>> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're >>>>>> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota. >>>>>> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>>> This >>>>>> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle >>>>>> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley, >>>>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>>>> you're >>>>>> probably right. But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes >>>>>> sense to me. If you have some branches paying any employees below the >>>>>> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight. >>>>>> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is one >>>>>> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble >>>>>> opinion. >>>>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Elizabeth, >>>>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are >>>>>> >>>>>> paid >>>>>> >>>>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they >>>>>> pay. I >>>>>> >>>>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Elizabeth >>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>>> >>>>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>>>> make >>>>>> reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am >>>>>> >>>>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>>> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but >>>>>> >>>>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>>> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a considerable >>>>>> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>>> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning the >>>>>> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>>> information that was cited in the article itself. >>>>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>>> I am >>>>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warm regards, >>>>>> Elizabeth >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article recently >>>>>> posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>>> ed-E >>>>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>>> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an average >>>>>> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because many states >>>>>> have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>>>> >>>>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage by >>>>>> state, go to: >>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>>>> >>>>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Greg >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Gregg, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If these >>>>>> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then how >>>>>> exactly >>>>>> >>>>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>>> calculated >>>>>> >>>>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>>>> salaries >>>>>> of those who may hold management positions which in effect would cancel >>>>>> out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the factory worker or the >>>>>> >>>>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>>>> the >>>>>> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your numbers, but >>>>>> if >>>>>> >>>>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue >>>>>> >>>>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>>>> >>>>>> Warm regards, >>>>>> Elizabeth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to actually >>>>>> >>>>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, 7300 >>>>>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers less >>>>>> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, which is >>>>>> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I can't say >>>>>> what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>>>> >>>>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>>>> >>>>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>>> workers with disabilities >>>>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>>>> >>>>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy is >>>>>> so >>>>>> >>>>>> high. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I would >>>>>> post in case others are interested too. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Greg >>>>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Good afternoon, >>>>>> >>>>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>>>> attention >>>>>> >>>>>> for >>>>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>>>> >>>>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> most >>>>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>>>> workers >>>>>> >>>>>> with >>>>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>>>> >>>>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized >>>>>> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>>>> the >>>>>> federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive >>>>>> set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at >>>>>> costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but >>>>>> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits >>>>>> to create employment opportunities >>>>>> >>>>>> for >>>>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>>> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>>>> >>>>>> management of >>>>>> >>>>>> these >>>>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled >>>>>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output >>>>>> justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are >>>>>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>>>> >>>>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>>>> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the >>>>>> wage to give them >>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>>>> >>>>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>>>> >>>>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>>> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>>> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but >>>>>> organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government >>>>>> contracting should have to >>>>>> >>>>>> fill >>>>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands >>>>>> >>>>>> now, >>>>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>>>> >>>>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>>>> >>>>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights >>>>>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is >>>>>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a >>>>>> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>>>> >>>>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>>>> completely >>>>>> correct. The boycott of Good >>>>>> >>>>>> Will >>>>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>>> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>>> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>>> realistically going to >>>>>> >>>>>> lead >>>>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>>> I >>>>>> >>>>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>>> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>>> currently makes $1.50 an >>>>>> >>>>>> hour. >>>>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee >>>>>> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>>>> >>>>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees >>>>>> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>>>> >>>>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>>>> >>>>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>>> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>>> changed is bogus and cynical. >>>>>> As I >>>>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>>>> >>>>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>>>> >>>>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>>> government pays. >>>>>> And, as >>>>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>>> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>>> support the >>>>>> >>>>>> 70, >>>>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow >>>>>> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>>>> >>>>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>>>> >>>>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to >>>>>> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 18:37:22 2012 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 12:37:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? In-Reply-To: References: <4fd6c2eb.20f3640a.383c.7de4@mx.google.com> <45E51C05-EF17-4DD5-B4CA-3A1F0DC88BA7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <22525334-F29E-4993-A874-B9BAEE49D03F@gmail.com> Hello Arielle and others, NABS archives are publicly available. I found one of your old posts on this topic through a quick google search. http://nfbnet.org/pipermail/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/2011-December/061456.html On a side note, it's important to remember that this is a public list. Anything we write here can be seen by an employer or colleague in the future. Always worth keeping that in mind. I think, Arielle, you do a good job explaining the advantages and techniques for travelling without official assistance through airports. Because of the volunteer and academic work I do, and because of a long distance relationship, I fly 15 or so round trips per year, which means I'm going to the airport 30 or so times a year, and I always get official assistance. I say official assistance because even if one is not being assisted by airport or airline staff, I imagine there is a fair bit of assistance received from other passengers. This is indeed a very personal choice. I have navigated in airports without the assistance of airline staff, such as when I arrive early and go for a bite to eat and then navigate from the restaurant to the gate. So I have some experience doing it this way, but not a lot. You're right that it's a safe environment with plenty of people to assist you, and people should be encouraged to travel in the manner that they prefer. For me, though, the thought of regularly having to ask people around me about where things are or even having them regularly asking me if I need help is not very appealing. If I'm on the street looking for a particular address, I'm fine with asking someone who passes by, but in that case, I will have already gotten myself very close, and I only need help identifying the specific door I want. But in an airport, I imagine you would be asking one person after another. First check in, then security, then possibly food or washroom, then gate, and each of these might involve asking more than one person. A preference not to have to repeatedly ask random strangers for assistance is probably the biggest reason why I take the official assistance. I'm not denying the advantages of doing things the way you do, nor am I trying to persuade anyone not to use those methods. I just have a hard time imagining that that would be a very pleasant process, though I admit that it can also be unpleasant when I receive the airline assistance. Best, Marc On 2012-06-14, at 10:15 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Thanks Humberto for your kind words, and yes I am following this > discussion. :) I have written several long posts about flying on this > list in the past, and I should have saved them somewhere, but I didn't > and I can't find them. I will offer a response here, but I think Greg > did a pretty good job of starting out, so I won't repeat what he said. > NABS is having a conference call on Sunday to discuss this topic, and > I will try to sit in if I can in case there are questions I can > answer, although I am confident Domonique will do a good job. > I would, however, like to offer some little-known advantages of > choosing to navigate the airport without assistance. I completely > think it is fine to take assistance for any reason, and the choice to > do so or not is an individual one. However, I think sometimes we are > taught that the only good way to get through the airport is with help, > and we don't necessarily think about other viable alternatives. I have > done it both with and without assistance, but prefer to do it without, > unless I am very rushed, have a ton of baggage or am not feeling well. > Here are some reasons I prefer to do it this way: > > 1. It's nice to go wherever I want whenever I want without feeling as > though I have a babysitter. If I have extra time at the airport, I > will usually not go right to the gate, but will often browse food > options or just walk around. With an assistant, I feel I have to go > right to the gate. > 2. It's not always faster. As Greg mentioned, sometimes there's a > wait, and sometimes the escorts want to take a whole group of people > at once, which slows things down. Particularly when I get to my > destination, I am often restless and just want to get my bags and get > in a cab as soon as I can. Without assistance I can control how long > it takes. When I was flying back from Australia alone, I had a tight > connection and requested assistance, but I insisted on meeting my > escort at baggage claim, not right at the gate. I was told I'd have to > wait for the entire plane to deboard before getting assistance at the > gate, so I rushed to baggage claim on my own and met my escort there. > As it happened, I was the last person to walk through the doors on my > connecting plane because the time was so short; if I had waited for > assistance at the gate, I would have missed that flight. > 3. No fighting with someone about whether you need a wheelchair, > golf-cart, preboarding or other accommodations. You can just do what > you want. > 4. On a related note, sometimes when I take assistance, my name gets > put into the airline's system as a disabled passenger, and I can't > always control what assumptions are made about my needs by the > airline. If I want assistance on just one leg of the trip, it's harder > for me to refuse it on the other leg because I've been pegged as a > disabled passenger. > 5. No worries about communication barriers between you and your > escort. Last fall I flew home to visit my parents and I had a bug bite > on my foot that swelled up making it painful to walk, so I decided to > get assistance to reduce the amount of walking. My escort was not a > native English speaker and got confused when I said I wanted to stop > at McDonald's before going to my gate. He thought I was asking him to > escort me onto the plane itself which he wasn't allowed to do and had > to find another employee to interpret before he understood what I was > telling him. Without assistance, again, you can go wherever you want > without having to communicate with someone else about it. > 6. Perhaps related to (5)--international travel. While I have only > been to Australia by myself and they do provide assistance there, I > would guess that in many countries assistance is hard to get, and > finding an escort who speaks your language is probably even more > difficult. If you know the basics of independent airport travel, you > can literally go anywhere in the world by yourself. > > So how do I do it without help? Not by magic, but a lot of good old > listening for sound cues and asking questions along the way. I can > find security by listening for the sound of the metal detectors, and > will ask someone if I am getting close. Fellow passengers can often be > very helpful in this regard and it's no inconvenience to them if > they're going the same way. To find your gate, look for a carpeted > area which will often have a TV or radio playing, and ask what gate > number you are at and for general directions to your gate. When it's > time to board, simply follow the line of other passengers past the > desk and down the jetway. The main thing to remember is that an > airport is enclosed and so it is impossible to get seriously lost. If > you get off track, all you need to do is ask one person for > clarification and you can get back on track. I say all this as someone > who has never been good at travel and who still gets nervous sometimes > about walking around in big open parking lots or crossing unfamiliar > streets. If you have more specific questions, feel free to write me > off-list, call me at > 602-502-2255 > or come to the call on Sunday and ask me or Domonique. > > One more thing--I generally don't use the "disabled" security lines or > pre-board unless, again, I have a lot of luggage or am not feeling > well. Everyone has a different approach to these things, and I respect > all views on this matter, but for me it's a philosophy issue. If I am > moving around the airport independently, I want to be treated like any > other passenger, not babysat or coddled. In order to be treated like > one, I believe I need to put up with all the same inconveniences of > waiting in line and waiting my turn to board as anyone else. I also > don't feel it's fair to cut ahead of folks who got in line before me > or who checked in before I did, since my blindness doesn't impact my > ability to stand or to move down the jetway as other disabilities > might. Since these accommodations are irrelevant to my blindness, I > feel it is just as inappropriate for me to take them as it would be > for a sighted, nondisabled person to do so. I feel fairly strongly > about this, and usually have to negotiate with airline personnel who > try to redirect me. They will even do this when I am traveling with my > boyfriend, and infuriate me even more by talking to him instead of to > me about it. I do sometimes make an exception if I have a big bag > because that does tend to mess up my navigation and slow me down a > little bit, a problem I probably wouldn't have if I were sighted, so > I'll cut so as to not inconvenience others. Of course, if you are > using assistance, the employee escort will probably want to skip the > line in order to save his/her own time, which I think is fine. > Arielle > > On 6/11/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> Wow, the below is pretty much exactly what I do! :O... I totally believe in >> >> asking from help from the get go, right as soon as you walk in the door. >> Airlines are often really good at getting you to where you need to go. They >> >> don't always know what Sighted Guide is though, so you'll probably need to >> ask them if you can please hold their elbow. >> I often make some joke about how their elbow and I are having a nice >> conversation about what's coming up as we're walking if they still are >> grabbing me despite me holding their elbow in one hand and my cane in the >> other. That usually helps. I also shrug off the wheelchair, saying it's way >> >> too slow. I do however love the little golf carts they sometimes take you >> around in, those are way faster than I could walk! >> But traveling with help gets you to the front of the line and keeps you from >> >> missing the flight. Also the airplane attendants know you're blind and let >> you know when they're coming by with the garbage or food so you don't miss >> it! >> What I'm anxious to know is how traveling overseas works... Non parlo >> Italiano! LOL >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Greg Aikens >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:58 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? >> >> Hi Beth, >> Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I generally >> >> handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. If I am taking a >> >> cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the curb side check-in for >> my airline if it is available. That way I can ditch my checked bags as >> early as possible, because I feel like they make navigating independently a >> >> little more difficult. If you do curb side check-in, it is generally >> expected that you tip the person handling your bags. You can choose to >> follow this convention or not. I have done both. >> If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the part of >> >> the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have the shortest >> path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will listen for the >> counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. If it is the wrong >> one, they generally redirect me to the correct counter. There are often >> airline employees helping passengers in line to answer questions etc. so >> keep an ear out. >> >> Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I ask for >> >> assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this independently, >> >> but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get assistance with this >> >> step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes for them to get someone up >> there to assist you, but I make sure I am waiting in an area where there is >> >> an employee I can ask to make sure I have not been forgotten. These people >> >> have generally been helpful to me and have understood when I refused a >> wheelchair. Occasionally you'll get someone who just doesn't get it, but if >> >> you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. >> >> When you get to security there is generally a line designated for passengers >> >> with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes slower than the >> >> main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for assistance, you can ask >> >> the person with you to help judge the lines. At security, you have to put >> everything you have into a bin, including your shoes. I usually put my cane >> >> through the scanner with all my other stuff, but I think I have heard of >> people who keep it with them when they pass through the metal detector. I >> find it simpler to put the cane through and trail the side of the machine up >> >> to the metal detector gate. At that point I ask the security person to >> reach their hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk straight >> through the metal detector without touching the sides. All in all, I am >> separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. >> >> The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact with the >> >> people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to the desk. I >> usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, you can choose to do >> >> this or not. >> >> The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are there to >> >> help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever uncomfortable, you >> should definitely say something. You are the one in control, and sometimes >> >> airport staff need to be reminded of that. Remember that you are allowed to >> >> keep your cane with you at all times, with the possible exception of passing >> >> through the metal detector. >> >> I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is helpful. >> Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: >> >>> Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm actually >>> flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like some practical >>> no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. >>> How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to get into >>> >>> the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might ask me to >>> sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've planned a trip >>> without a group of blind people or family around. I would like to get >>> some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and how much it usually >>> would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to DIA. >>> >>> Thanks, guys. >>> Beth >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Fri Jun 15 19:42:26 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:42:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? In-Reply-To: <22525334-F29E-4993-A874-B9BAEE49D03F@gmail.com> References: <4fd6c2eb.20f3640a.383c.7de4@mx.google.com><45E51C05-EF17-4DD5-B4CA-3A1F0DC88BA7@gmail.com> <22525334-F29E-4993-A874-B9BAEE49D03F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817ABF@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> The amount of vision you have may play a role in what travelling preferences you have. Some useable vision can be very helpful in navigating a new place. Without any vision, however, and air port can be pretty confusing for most people. That being said, its totally possible. If you fly into and out of a certain air port regularly, you will probably just learn it after a while and won't have to keep getting assistance, even with no vision but if you are in an unfamiliar air port and have little to no vision, assistance may be more comfortable. Zunaira -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 2:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? Hello Arielle and others, NABS archives are publicly available. I found one of your old posts on this topic through a quick google search. http://nfbnet.org/pipermail/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/2011-December/061456.html On a side note, it's important to remember that this is a public list. Anything we write here can be seen by an employer or colleague in the future. Always worth keeping that in mind. I think, Arielle, you do a good job explaining the advantages and techniques for travelling without official assistance through airports. Because of the volunteer and academic work I do, and because of a long distance relationship, I fly 15 or so round trips per year, which means I'm going to the airport 30 or so times a year, and I always get official assistance. I say official assistance because even if one is not being assisted by airport or airline staff, I imagine there is a fair bit of assistance received from other passengers. This is indeed a very personal choice. I have navigated in airports without the assistance of airline staff, such as when I arrive early and go for a bite to eat and then navigate from the restaurant to the gate. So I have some experience doing it this way, but not a lot. You're right that it's a safe environment with plenty of people to assist you, and people should be encouraged to travel in the manner that they prefer. For me, though, the thought of regularly having to ask people around me about where things are or even having them regularly asking me if I need help is not very appealing. If I'm on the street looking for a particular address, I'm fine with asking someone who passes by, but in that case, I will have already gotten myself very close, and I only need help identifying the specific door I want. But in an airport, I imagine you would be asking one person after another. First check in, then security, then possibly food or washroom, then gate, and each of these might involve asking more than one person. A preference not to have to repeatedly ask random strangers for assistance is probably the biggest reason why I take the official assistance. I'm not denying the advantages of doing things the way you do, nor am I trying to persuade anyone not to use those methods. I just have a hard time imagining that that would be a very pleasant process, though I admit that it can also be unpleasant when I receive the airline assistance. Best, Marc On 2012-06-14, at 10:15 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > Thanks Humberto for your kind words, and yes I am following this > discussion. :) I have written several long posts about flying on this > list in the past, and I should have saved them somewhere, but I didn't > and I can't find them. I will offer a response here, but I think Greg > did a pretty good job of starting out, so I won't repeat what he said. > NABS is having a conference call on Sunday to discuss this topic, and > I will try to sit in if I can in case there are questions I can > answer, although I am confident Domonique will do a good job. > I would, however, like to offer some little-known advantages of > choosing to navigate the airport without assistance. I completely > think it is fine to take assistance for any reason, and the choice to > do so or not is an individual one. However, I think sometimes we are > taught that the only good way to get through the airport is with help, > and we don't necessarily think about other viable alternatives. I have > done it both with and without assistance, but prefer to do it without, > unless I am very rushed, have a ton of baggage or am not feeling well. > Here are some reasons I prefer to do it this way: > > 1. It's nice to go wherever I want whenever I want without feeling as > though I have a babysitter. If I have extra time at the airport, I > will usually not go right to the gate, but will often browse food > options or just walk around. With an assistant, I feel I have to go > right to the gate. > 2. It's not always faster. As Greg mentioned, sometimes there's a > wait, and sometimes the escorts want to take a whole group of people > at once, which slows things down. Particularly when I get to my > destination, I am often restless and just want to get my bags and get > in a cab as soon as I can. Without assistance I can control how long > it takes. When I was flying back from Australia alone, I had a tight > connection and requested assistance, but I insisted on meeting my > escort at baggage claim, not right at the gate. I was told I'd have to > wait for the entire plane to deboard before getting assistance at the > gate, so I rushed to baggage claim on my own and met my escort there. > As it happened, I was the last person to walk through the doors on my > connecting plane because the time was so short; if I had waited for > assistance at the gate, I would have missed that flight. > 3. No fighting with someone about whether you need a wheelchair, > golf-cart, preboarding or other accommodations. You can just do what > you want. > 4. On a related note, sometimes when I take assistance, my name gets > put into the airline's system as a disabled passenger, and I can't > always control what assumptions are made about my needs by the > airline. If I want assistance on just one leg of the trip, it's harder > for me to refuse it on the other leg because I've been pegged as a > disabled passenger. > 5. No worries about communication barriers between you and your > escort. Last fall I flew home to visit my parents and I had a bug bite > on my foot that swelled up making it painful to walk, so I decided to > get assistance to reduce the amount of walking. My escort was not a > native English speaker and got confused when I said I wanted to stop > at McDonald's before going to my gate. He thought I was asking him to > escort me onto the plane itself which he wasn't allowed to do and had > to find another employee to interpret before he understood what I was > telling him. Without assistance, again, you can go wherever you want > without having to communicate with someone else about it. > 6. Perhaps related to (5)--international travel. While I have only > been to Australia by myself and they do provide assistance there, I > would guess that in many countries assistance is hard to get, and > finding an escort who speaks your language is probably even more > difficult. If you know the basics of independent airport travel, you > can literally go anywhere in the world by yourself. > > So how do I do it without help? Not by magic, but a lot of good old > listening for sound cues and asking questions along the way. I can > find security by listening for the sound of the metal detectors, and > will ask someone if I am getting close. Fellow passengers can often be > very helpful in this regard and it's no inconvenience to them if > they're going the same way. To find your gate, look for a carpeted > area which will often have a TV or radio playing, and ask what gate > number you are at and for general directions to your gate. When it's > time to board, simply follow the line of other passengers past the > desk and down the jetway. The main thing to remember is that an > airport is enclosed and so it is impossible to get seriously lost. If > you get off track, all you need to do is ask one person for > clarification and you can get back on track. I say all this as someone > who has never been good at travel and who still gets nervous sometimes > about walking around in big open parking lots or crossing unfamiliar > streets. If you have more specific questions, feel free to write me > off-list, call me at > 602-502-2255 > or come to the call on Sunday and ask me or Domonique. > > One more thing--I generally don't use the "disabled" security lines or > pre-board unless, again, I have a lot of luggage or am not feeling > well. Everyone has a different approach to these things, and I respect > all views on this matter, but for me it's a philosophy issue. If I am > moving around the airport independently, I want to be treated like any > other passenger, not babysat or coddled. In order to be treated like > one, I believe I need to put up with all the same inconveniences of > waiting in line and waiting my turn to board as anyone else. I also > don't feel it's fair to cut ahead of folks who got in line before me > or who checked in before I did, since my blindness doesn't impact my > ability to stand or to move down the jetway as other disabilities > might. Since these accommodations are irrelevant to my blindness, I > feel it is just as inappropriate for me to take them as it would be > for a sighted, nondisabled person to do so. I feel fairly strongly > about this, and usually have to negotiate with airline personnel who > try to redirect me. They will even do this when I am traveling with my > boyfriend, and infuriate me even more by talking to him instead of to > me about it. I do sometimes make an exception if I have a big bag > because that does tend to mess up my navigation and slow me down a > little bit, a problem I probably wouldn't have if I were sighted, so > I'll cut so as to not inconvenience others. Of course, if you are > using assistance, the employee escort will probably want to skip the > line in order to save his/her own time, which I think is fine. > Arielle > > On 6/11/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> Wow, the below is pretty much exactly what I do! :O... I totally >> believe in >> >> asking from help from the get go, right as soon as you walk in the door. >> Airlines are often really good at getting you to where you need to >> go. They >> >> don't always know what Sighted Guide is though, so you'll probably >> need to ask them if you can please hold their elbow. >> I often make some joke about how their elbow and I are having a nice >> conversation about what's coming up as we're walking if they still >> are grabbing me despite me holding their elbow in one hand and my >> cane in the other. That usually helps. I also shrug off the >> wheelchair, saying it's way >> >> too slow. I do however love the little golf carts they sometimes take >> you around in, those are way faster than I could walk! >> But traveling with help gets you to the front of the line and keeps >> you from >> >> missing the flight. Also the airplane attendants know you're blind >> and let you know when they're coming by with the garbage or food so >> you don't miss it! >> What I'm anxious to know is how traveling overseas works... Non parlo >> Italiano! LOL Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Greg Aikens >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:58 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? >> >> Hi Beth, >> Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I >> generally >> >> handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. If I am >> taking a >> >> cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the curb side >> check-in for my airline if it is available. That way I can ditch my >> checked bags as early as possible, because I feel like they make >> navigating independently a >> >> little more difficult. If you do curb side check-in, it is generally >> expected that you tip the person handling your bags. You can choose >> to follow this convention or not. I have done both. >> If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the >> part of >> >> the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have the >> shortest path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will listen >> for the counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. If it >> is the wrong one, they generally redirect me to the correct counter. >> There are often airline employees helping passengers in line to >> answer questions etc. so keep an ear out. >> >> Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I >> ask for >> >> assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this >> independently, >> >> but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get assistance >> with this >> >> step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes for them to get >> someone up there to assist you, but I make sure I am waiting in an >> area where there is >> >> an employee I can ask to make sure I have not been forgotten. These >> people >> >> have generally been helpful to me and have understood when I refused >> a wheelchair. Occasionally you'll get someone who just doesn't get >> it, but if >> >> you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. >> >> When you get to security there is generally a line designated for >> passengers >> >> with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes slower >> than the >> >> main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for assistance, you >> can ask >> >> the person with you to help judge the lines. At security, you have >> to put everything you have into a bin, including your shoes. I >> usually put my cane >> >> through the scanner with all my other stuff, but I think I have heard >> of people who keep it with them when they pass through the metal >> detector. I find it simpler to put the cane through and trail the >> side of the machine up >> >> to the metal detector gate. At that point I ask the security person >> to reach their hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk >> straight through the metal detector without touching the sides. All >> in all, I am separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. >> >> The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact >> with the >> >> people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to the >> desk. I usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, you >> can choose to do >> >> this or not. >> >> The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are >> there to >> >> help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever uncomfortable, >> you should definitely say something. You are the one in control, and >> sometimes >> >> airport staff need to be reminded of that. Remember that you are >> allowed to >> >> keep your cane with you at all times, with the possible exception of >> passing >> >> through the metal detector. >> >> I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is helpful. >> Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. >> >> -Greg >> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: >> >>> Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm >>> actually flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like >>> some practical no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. >>> How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to >>> get into >>> >>> the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might ask >>> me to sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've >>> planned a trip without a group of blind people or family around. I >>> would like to get some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and >>> how much it usually would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to DIA. >>> >>> Thanks, guys. >>> Beth >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail >>> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Jun 15 20:50:28 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:50:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I received this E-mail, but my question is, how will this affect accessibility? Thanks, Joshua ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bookshare Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:46:48 +0000 Subject: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Dearr Members, Next week, we are rolling out some changes to the Bookshare homepage! While much of the page like login and search will stay the same, these updates will help new members to get started with Bookshare and help existing members to use and manage their accounts. What's new? First, you will notice an updated main content section and sidebar. The main content section will have described images and a large sign up button for first-timers. The sidebar will contain a new book counter, the existing and popular "Browse Book Lists", and a Bookshare news section. Secondly, we are beginning to personalize the homepage. After you log in, you'll see a welcome page that will include a simple search box to help you find books. For new members, there will also be a link to our "Getting Started" page. In the near future, we'll be adding more features and personalized news and information to this section, so stay tuned! Do you want to help make Bookshare better? Join our testing program and test drive new and upcoming features. Sign up today! - http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/1b3e19e5a8 The Bookshare team Are you participating in the Bookshare Summer Reading Event? Learn more! - http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/39b4f5e600/utm_content=jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Text%20Version%20-%20Link%202&utm_campaign=Changes%20coming%20to%20Bookshare%20homepage ______________________________________________________________________ Click to view this email in a browser http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/266797/db27e969ec/1400066533/69d6259c0a/ If you no longer wish to receive these emails, please reply to this message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on the following link: http://cts.vresp.com/u?db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/mlpftw ______________________________________________________________________ Benetech sent this email free of charge using VerticalResponse for Non-Profits. Non-Profits email free. You email affordably. Benetech 480 California Ave., Suite 201 Palo Alto, California 94306 US Read the VerticalResponse marketing policy: http://www.verticalresponse.com/content/pm_policy.html From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 21:17:44 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 17:17:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: MEDIA ADVISORY: David Paterson to Address Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities In-Reply-To: <758F7D155D230647B0638EC9E3B6A62D04E33267FB@VA3DIAXVS611.RED001.local> References: <758F7D155D230647B0638EC9E3B6A62D04E33267FB@VA3DIAXVS611.RED001.local> Message-ID: <000001cd4b3c$4f4279d0$edc76d70$@gmail.com> From: Freeh, Jessica [mailto:JFreeh at nfb.org] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:21 AM To: Undisclosed recipients: Subject: MEDIA ADVISORY: David Paterson to Address Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org Sean Darcy Governor Paterson's Office (609) 610-0543 MEDIA ADVISORY David Paterson to Address Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Support Boycott of Goodwill Industries International, Inc. Event: Press Conference Date: June 20, 2012 Time: 11:00 a.m. Place: Steps of New York City Hall 260 Broadway Manhattan, New York City 10007 David A. Paterson, the 55th Governor of the State of New York and a consultant to the National Federation of the Blind (NFB), will urge that all Americans with disabilities be paid at least the federal minimum wage. The Governor will also express his support for the NFB's recently announced boycott against Goodwill Industries International Inc., one of the largest and most well-known organizations paying subminimum wages to disabled workers. If you are a member of the press and plan to attend, please RSVP to Sean Darcy at (609) 610-0543. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 21:28:34 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 17:28:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill boycott, and the media! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601cd4b3d$d295bfd0$77c13f70$@gmail.com> Hi Joshua, Very good! Don't expect him to cover the boycott the night you email him, though. He probably doesn't even read most of his emails. I have some connections in the local media, and will email them soon. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 5:11 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill boycott, and the media! I just E-mailed Bill ORiley, from Fox News. Let's hope he discusses this boycott, and gives us positive coverage, on tonight's show! Blessings, Joshua _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Jun 15 21:35:42 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 16:35:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill boycott, and the media! In-Reply-To: <000601cd4b3d$d295bfd0$77c13f70$@gmail.com> References: <000601cd4b3d$d295bfd0$77c13f70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Great! I want Huckabee to discuss it, but I can't contact him, due to a captcha! I have Web Visom, but it isn't working for me! I don't know why! Thanks, Joshua On 6/15/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Joshua, > > Very good! Don't expect him to cover the boycott the night you email him, > though. He probably doesn't even read most of his emails. I have some > connections in the local media, and will email them soon. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Joshua Lester > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 5:11 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill boycott, and the media! > > I just E-mailed Bill ORiley, from Fox News. > Let's hope he discusses this boycott, and gives us positive coverage, on > tonight's show! > Blessings, Joshua > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 21:46:27 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 17:46:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office In-Reply-To: References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> <002e01cd4aa4$16f61390$44e23ab0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000801cd4b40$521d6260$f6582720$@gmail.com> Hi Bill, What you say here about the Gmail standard view is very interesting. I guess this is one of those rare instances in which the accessibility of a Web site or a computer program depends on what screen reader you use. I use JAWS, and the Gmail standard view has shown itself (at least to me) to be very confusing and unusable, making it seem to me that the standard view is inaccessible. This is something which has also been found by the NFB Access Technology Team when they tested Gmail's standard view. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office Someone said the standard view of GMail is not accessible at all, I disagree. I use the standard view with Window-Eyes 7.5 exclusively for interacting with my several gmail accounts and to manage several other accounts which are set up to forward and for gmail to send from. The first thing I do which I find super helpful when setting up a new new gmail acount is to turn on the keyboard shortcuts under the general tab in the settings. Though I am a WE user, when I was studying at the CCB, I used JAWS exclusively and was still able to access my gmail without much trouble. I admit that it is a bit trickier with the constant changing between the several different cursors in JAWS but once you get used to it, it is way more efficient then the basic HTML view. If people are interested in the techniques I use, feel free to email me offlist and I can try and help. As for the ribben, if you are used to the classic menu system, then the ribbins can be quite dawnting. As with most things, if you learn where things are, there are many shortcuts to help get betwenn the groups, select a specific option and so on that makes them almost as quick as using the menu system from office 2003. I think JAWS will eventually have to dump the virtual ribbins as it will become unmanageable, and they will need to let their users learn them. For example, Windows 8 will be featuring the ribbin in windows explorer and several other of its own applications. There is some challenges with using Windows 8, but they can be overcome with a bit of practice. There is a video on GW Micro's website that demonstrates the new OS with the private beta of WinEyes 8. Though there are a few new methods and quirks, it isn't actually that bad once you learn the new system. Bill On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Humberto Avila wrote: > Actually, i don't know why some of you guys don't like the JAWS > virtual ribbon menus. Personally, I love them. They are so much easier > than the standard, off-the-shelf ribbons without using the JAWS simulated ribbons. > You get the upper ribbons, on the upper tabs, like home tab, insert > tab, ETC in Microsoft word. Then after you press the down arrow on a > tab, you get traditional submenu styles. Like when I press down arrow > on the Home tab in Microsoft word 2010, I hear, "clipboard submenu, > editing submenu, paragraph submenu," ETC. when I hit the right arrow > or enter on the submenu I want, I hear standard options. Sometimes > there are buttons, which I can activate by hitting enter, sometimes > they are checkboxes I can toggle by hitting enter, and also I would > get combo boxes and edit combo boxes. To activate these edit combos, I > press Alt+down Arrow and this simulates like the forms mode on and > off. To close these after selecting an item, press enter. Also, to > activate a split button, you press the spacebar. You will usually get > more options organized in a listbox, sometimes they will be more > menus. There are also dropdown buttons, which you can press the space > bar to activate more options. Some will say, dropdown grid. When you > press the spacebar, they are literally like grids. You can press all the up, down, right and left arrow keys to move and hear options. > > I think you should play around with them. It's like those ribbons are > converted into submenus by JAWS and they aren't ribbons anymore, > except for the upper tabs. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows > andMicrosoft Office > > Chris, > You are right that outlook is accessible and in fact a few features > now work > > that did not in the past. I also agree its easier to navigate than > gmail. My > > school uses gmail so I use it in basic html mode. It has frames and is > just a difficult layout. At least outlook is a list; you have a list > of messages and a list of your folders like inbox, sent items, and deleted items. > > Anyway, the description of the ribbon is right. Up top is the tabs and > on the bottom is the categories. I know jaws has a virtual ribbon, > but that totally misses my point. Personally I find the jaws virtual > menus worse than > > the office ribbon since I don't see the split buttons which is like a > submenu with the ribbonns. > I use the standard ribbons and in fact forget how to turn on virtual > ribbons. > But I'm talking about microsoft accessibility, not jaws. Not everyone > uses jaws. In fact I bet with free screen readers and more readers now on the > market, I bet you less and less use jaws. So IMO, microsoft needs to make > their products more accessible. You have to tab and tab on the lower > ribbon > > to get to everything. Another example, for those who used powerpoint, > you cannot tab on the lower ribbon to the sound transitions. Try it. > Go to the transitions tab and try to find the sound effects. Unless > you go backwards, meaning starting at the end, and shift tabbing back, > you will not hear sound effects group. I never knew it was there until > someone told me where, because jaws skipped over it. I navigated that > tab many times and never saw it. Also, in Word, sometimes it skips > things on the lower ribbon too. I realize many like ribbons, but I've > spoken to lots of people, I mean sighted people too, who find it a > pain. They, too, would rather scroll and skim through a menu. > > Another challenge I find is galleries. In a gallery, you right arrow > over to > > your options but then it puts you back at your first option. Its hard > to explain, but I see this a lot in powerpoint. > And finally, Access 2003 was accessible and in later versions it is not. > > Another thing is that in 2010 version, Word still puts extra spacing > between > > your lines. How is a totally blind person going to know this? > I don't think they will. You have to change the spacing after to 0 > points and the default is 10 points. Jaws says single spaced even > though to a sighted person, and I noticed as I looked close, that > there was extra space between lines. > > At least one good thing is you can create your own tab, thereby > customizing it to your liking and can get to frequently used stuff by putting it there. > I want to find out how to create a tab and use it. > Chris, I'm glad you like office 2010, but I think you will find that > as you need more applications and navigate other applications, you > will find glitches. Also, I hear windows 8 is more visual and NFB > isn't doing anything about it. > For instance you won't have a shut down button on the start menu. It > looks more like a tablet I heard. A trainer that I worked with who > saw the beta version told me this. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:43 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows > andMicrosoft Office > > Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, > > With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new > topic of this thread more clearly. > > Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for > about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty > accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have > all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in > the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to > learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) > and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook > 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. > > I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you > get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older > Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form > of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person > with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little > confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a > sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are > using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by > pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as > Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the > "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing > the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press > down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is > like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS > as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in > Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then > go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says > "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. > > Hope this helps, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > Ashley, > You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. > (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you > prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible > because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't > have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes > still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost > like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than > the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to > find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. > Best, > Kirt > > On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Bill, >> There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. >> However, >> >> that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or >> window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We >> have more access too because you can customize not only the >> applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do >> not know how much customization >> >> you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only >> works with products produced by Apple. >> The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise >> awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from >> the beginning. Too >> >> often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer >> may have >> >> scripts produced for you to access their software. >> Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as >> of 2007 >> >> make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person >> can skim >> >> the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a >> traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter >> navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the >> old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. >> If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as >> I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system >> looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option >> on the start menu as we do now. >> >> Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include >> quickbooks, quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. >> So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that >> said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility >> to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace >> >> I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing >> they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the >> system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications >> produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for >> firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine >> the third party business applications, though sometimes not >> accessible on windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple >> and the software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us >> better access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far >> wider viriety of everyday and specialty programs. >> Bill >> >> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira >> wrote: >>> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >>> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >>> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >>> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >>> conversion was just a thought. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf Of David Andrews >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>> >>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft >>>>ware, it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I >>>>have two clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't >>>>working well with the employer's technology. This is a form of >>>>discrimination and it violates the ADA in the same way that >>>>inaccessible web cites violate >>> >>>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >>> >>>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>>were >>> enforced. >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>>acessible >>> programs? >>>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>>hurdles >>> >>>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>the only >>>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the >>>>form of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work >>>>with clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's >>>>computer system is >>> >>>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >>> discriminatory! >>>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple >>>>level building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of >>>>discrimination is reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>>but >>> >>>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit >>>>and they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person >>>>has the skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if >>>>a nonvisually impaired employee >>> has the skills? >>>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is >>>>"oh, yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a >>>>tax break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better >>>>pay me to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. >>>>Our government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies >>>>like Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we >>>>are taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How >>>>is this >>> >>>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system >>>>is perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe >>>>its an >>> effective way of >>>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>option I >>>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>change. >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire >>>>us because >>> >>>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >>> quota. >>>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>This >>>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Ashley, >>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>>policy >>> to set that straight. >>>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>>humble >>> >>>>opinion. >>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>Kirt >>>> >>>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Elizabeth, >>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>>are >>>> >>>> paid >>>> >>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>>> they >>> >>>>pay. I >>>> >>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>>am >>>> >>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>>but >>>> >>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>>considerable >>> >>>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>>the >>> >>>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>I am >>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>> >>>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>ed-E >>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>>many states >>> >>>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>> >>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>>by state, go to: >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>> >>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Gregg, >>>> >>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>>how >>> >>>>exactly >>>> >>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>calculated >>>> >>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>>factory >>> >>>>worker or the >>>> >>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>>numbers, but if >>>> >>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>>> issue >>>> >>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>>actually >>>> >>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>>> 7300 >>> >>>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>> >>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine >>>> it >>>> >>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>workers with disabilities >>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply >>>>that >>>> >>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>> >>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>>is so >>>> >>>> high. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>>would post in case others are interested too. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>> >>>> Good afternoon, >>>> >>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>> attention >>>> >>>> for >>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts >>>>are complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>> >>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, >>>> largest and >>>> >>>> most >>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>> workers >>>> >>>> with >>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>> >>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>>> scrutinized >>> >>>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>> >>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business >>>>with the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>>> >>>> for >>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>> >>>> management of >>>> >>>> these >>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>> >>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>> >>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level >>>>of output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to >>>>subsidize the >>> >>>>wage to give them >>>> >>>> the >>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>> >>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>> >>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>>government contracting should have to >>>> >>>> fill >>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>>stands >>>> >>>> now, >>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>> >>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>> >>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>>that >>> >>>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>> >>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>>> >>>> Will >>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each >>>> of us >>>> >>>> to >>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will >>>>it cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>realistically going to >>>> >>>> lead >>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>I >>>> >>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>currently makes $1.50 an >>>> >>>> hour. >>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>>> employee >>> >>>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>> >>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>> >>>> of >>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>> >>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>> >>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>>> As I >>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>> >>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>> >>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>government pays. >>>> And, as >>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>support the >>>> >>>> 70, >>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>> >>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>> >>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>>> to >>> >>>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>> >>>> Sean >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail. >>> c >>> om >> >> >> >> -- >> Bill Casson >> University of New Mexico >> M.S. Computer Science >> Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 >> B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. >> (505) 695-1374 >> cassonw at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >> t >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> g >> mail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humbert > o2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.co > m -- Bill Casson University of New Mexico M.S. Computer Science Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. (505) 695-1374 cassonw at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From joshkart12 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 21:51:22 2012 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 17:51:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office In-Reply-To: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Completely disagree about mobile. Works flawlessly on my notetaker. But ms word is cool, and don't forget about apple mail, for those with apple products. And, if you know what you're doing, standard view is quite usable on a laptop. On 6/14/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, > > With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of > this thread more clearly. > > Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two > months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but > it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of > Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the > other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier > than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are > accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft > Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. > > I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get > the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft > Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which > appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons > inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing > partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted > people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu > bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has > them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, > which > are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by > pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, > press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is > like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a > button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you > would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond > submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and > hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to > them. > > Hope this helps, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > Ashley, > You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. > (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you > prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because > of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab > through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you > can > turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, > honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because > it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the > quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. > Best, > Kirt > > On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Bill, >> There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. >> However, >> >> that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or >> window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We >> have more access too because you can customize not only the >> applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do >> not know how much customization >> >> you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only >> works with products produced by Apple. >> The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise >> awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from >> the beginning. Too >> >> often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer >> may have >> >> scripts produced for you to access their software. >> Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as >> of 2007 >> >> make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person >> can skim >> >> the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a >> traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter >> navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the >> old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. >> If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as >> I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system >> looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on >> the start menu as we do now. >> >> Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, >> quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. >> So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that >> said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility >> to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as >> well. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace >> >> I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing >> they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the >> system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications >> produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for >> firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the >> third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on >> windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the >> software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better >> access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider >> viriety of everyday and specialty programs. >> Bill >> >> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira >> wrote: >>> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >>> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >>> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >>> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >>> conversion was just a thought. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of David Andrews >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>> >>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>>violate >>> >>>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >>> >>>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>>were >>> enforced. >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>>acessible >>> programs? >>>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>>hurdles >>> >>>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>>the only >>>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>>system is >>> >>>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >>> discriminatory! >>>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>>but >>> >>>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>>nonvisually impaired employee >>> has the skills? >>>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>>this >>> >>>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>>an >>> effective way of >>>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>>option I >>>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>>change. >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>>because >>> >>>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >>> quota. >>>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>>This >>>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>>Ashley, >>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>>policy >>> to set that straight. >>>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>>humble >>> >>>>opinion. >>>> Take it or leave it, >>>>Kirt >>>> >>>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Elizabeth, >>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>>are >>>> >>>> paid >>>> >>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>>> they >>> >>>>pay. I >>>> >>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>>am >>>> >>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>>but >>>> >>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>>considerable >>> >>>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>>the >>> >>>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>>I am >>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>> >>>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>>ed-E >>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>>many states >>> >>>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>> >>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>>by state, go to: >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>> >>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Gregg, >>>> >>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>>how >>> >>>>exactly >>>> >>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>>calculated >>>> >>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>>factory >>> >>>>worker or the >>>> >>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>>numbers, but if >>>> >>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>>> issue >>>> >>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens" >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>>actually >>>> >>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>>> 7300 >>> >>>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>> >>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>> >>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>>workers with disabilities >>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>> >>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>> >>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>>is so >>>> >>>> high. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>>would post in case others are interested too. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>> >>>> Good afternoon, >>>> >>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>> attention >>>> >>>> for >>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>> >>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>> and >>>> >>>> most >>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>> workers >>>> >>>> with >>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>> >>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>>> scrutinized >>> >>>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>> >>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>>> >>>> for >>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>> >>>> management of >>>> >>>> these >>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>> >>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>> >>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>>the >>> >>>>wage to give them >>>> >>>> the >>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>> >>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>> >>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>>government contracting should have to >>>> >>>> fill >>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>>stands >>>> >>>> now, >>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>> >>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>> >>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>>that >>> >>>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>> >>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>>> >>>> Will >>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>>> us >>>> >>>> to >>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>>realistically going to >>>> >>>> lead >>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>>I >>>> >>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>>currently makes $1.50 an >>>> >>>> hour. >>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>>> employee >>> >>>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>> >>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>> >>>> of >>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>> >>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>> >>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>>> As I >>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>> >>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>> >>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>>government pays. >>>> And, as >>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>>support the >>>> >>>> 70, >>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>> >>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>> >>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>>> to >>> >>>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>> >>>> Sean >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >>> om >> >> >> >> -- >> Bill Casson >> University of New Mexico >> M.S. Computer Science >> Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 >> B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. >> (505) 695-1374 >> cassonw at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart >> hlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> mail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- "If I'm fat, then Stewie's fat too, because we wear the same sized onesie." -- Peter Griffin, Family Gy From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 21:54:17 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 17:54:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office In-Reply-To: <002e01cd4aa4$16f61390$44e23ab0$@gmail.com> References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> <002e01cd4aa4$16f61390$44e23ab0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000b01cd4b41$69e6c020$3db44060$@gmail.com> Hi Humberto, Thank you! That was exactly what I was trying to explain; you just explained it better. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Avila Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:08 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office Actually, i don't know why some of you guys don't like the JAWS virtual ribbon menus. Personally, I love them. They are so much easier than the standard, off-the-shelf ribbons without using the JAWS simulated ribbons. You get the upper ribbons, on the upper tabs, like home tab, insert tab, ETC in Microsoft word. Then after you press the down arrow on a tab, you get traditional submenu styles. Like when I press down arrow on the Home tab in Microsoft word 2010, I hear, "clipboard submenu, editing submenu, paragraph submenu," ETC. when I hit the right arrow or enter on the submenu I want, I hear standard options. Sometimes there are buttons, which I can activate by hitting enter, sometimes they are checkboxes I can toggle by hitting enter, and also I would get combo boxes and edit combo boxes. To activate these edit combos, I press Alt+down Arrow and this simulates like the forms mode on and off. To close these after selecting an item, press enter. Also, to activate a split button, you press the spacebar. You will usually get more options organized in a listbox, sometimes they will be more menus. There are also dropdown buttons, which you can press the space bar to activate more options. Some will say, dropdown grid. When you press the spacebar, they are literally like grids. You can press all the up, down, right and left arrow keys to move and hear options. I think you should play around with them. It's like those ribbons are converted into submenus by JAWS and they aren't ribbons anymore, except for the upper tabs. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office Chris, You are right that outlook is accessible and in fact a few features now work that did not in the past. I also agree its easier to navigate than gmail. My school uses gmail so I use it in basic html mode. It has frames and is just a difficult layout. At least outlook is a list; you have a list of messages and a list of your folders like inbox, sent items, and deleted items. Anyway, the description of the ribbon is right. Up top is the tabs and on the bottom is the categories. I know jaws has a virtual ribbon, but that totally misses my point. Personally I find the jaws virtual menus worse than the office ribbon since I don't see the split buttons which is like a submenu with the ribbonns. I use the standard ribbons and in fact forget how to turn on virtual ribbons. But I'm talking about microsoft accessibility, not jaws. Not everyone uses jaws. In fact I bet with free screen readers and more readers now on the market, I bet you less and less use jaws. So IMO, microsoft needs to make their products more accessible. You have to tab and tab on the lower ribbon to get to everything. Another example, for those who used powerpoint, you cannot tab on the lower ribbon to the sound transitions. Try it. Go to the transitions tab and try to find the sound effects. Unless you go backwards, meaning starting at the end, and shift tabbing back, you will not hear sound effects group. I never knew it was there until someone told me where, because jaws skipped over it. I navigated that tab many times and never saw it. Also, in Word, sometimes it skips things on the lower ribbon too. I realize many like ribbons, but I've spoken to lots of people, I mean sighted people too, who find it a pain. They, too, would rather scroll and skim through a menu. Another challenge I find is galleries. In a gallery, you right arrow over to your options but then it puts you back at your first option. Its hard to explain, but I see this a lot in powerpoint. And finally, Access 2003 was accessible and in later versions it is not. Another thing is that in 2010 version, Word still puts extra spacing between your lines. How is a totally blind person going to know this? I don't think they will. You have to change the spacing after to 0 points and the default is 10 points. Jaws says single spaced even though to a sighted person, and I noticed as I looked close, that there was extra space between lines. At least one good thing is you can create your own tab, thereby customizing it to your liking and can get to frequently used stuff by putting it there. I want to find out how to create a tab and use it. Chris, I'm glad you like office 2010, but I think you will find that as you need more applications and navigate other applications, you will find glitches. Also, I hear windows 8 is more visual and NFB isn't doing anything about it. For instance you won't have a shut down button on the start menu. It looks more like a tablet I heard. A trainer that I worked with who saw the beta version told me this. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:43 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From hannahgf11 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 22:31:40 2012 From: hannahgf11 at gmail.com (Hannah) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 17:31:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for a Roommate Message-ID: Hi. I have a room at National Convention and there is room for one more female in it. I am asking for no partiers please. Email me at hannahgf11 at gmail.com if interested. Thanks, Hannah Sent from my iPod From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 16 01:25:48 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:25:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70694A3E9EB8420FA67CB066FDB47900@OwnerPC> Considering that bookshare has blind staff like Alison Hiliker who was active in Nabs and they were started for serving blind people, I suspect they will still keep accessibility in mind. I think as they change the site, just test it out and report any access issues if you find them. I might get an account. Are their files all test? How do you all read them? Computer? Braille notetaker? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 4:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage I received this E-mail, but my question is, how will this affect accessibility? Thanks, Joshua ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bookshare Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:46:48 +0000 Subject: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Dearr Members, Next week, we are rolling out some changes to the Bookshare homepage! While much of the page like login and search will stay the same, these updates will help new members to get started with Bookshare and help existing members to use and manage their accounts. What's new? First, you will notice an updated main content section and sidebar. The main content section will have described images and a large sign up button for first-timers. The sidebar will contain a new book counter, the existing and popular "Browse Book Lists", and a Bookshare news section. Secondly, we are beginning to personalize the homepage. After you log in, you'll see a welcome page that will include a simple search box to help you find books. For new members, there will also be a link to our "Getting Started" page. In the near future, we'll be adding more features and personalized news and information to this section, so stay tuned! Do you want to help make Bookshare better? Join our testing program and test drive new and upcoming features. Sign up today! - http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/1b3e19e5a8 The Bookshare team Are you participating in the Bookshare Summer Reading Event? Learn more! - http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/39b4f5e600/utm_content=jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Text%20Version%20-%20Link%202&utm_campaign=Changes%20coming%20to%20Bookshare%20homepage ______________________________________________________________________ Click to view this email in a browser http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/266797/db27e969ec/1400066533/69d6259c0a/ If you no longer wish to receive these emails, please reply to this message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on the following link: http://cts.vresp.com/u?db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/mlpftw ______________________________________________________________________ Benetech sent this email free of charge using VerticalResponse for Non-Profits. Non-Profits email free. You email affordably. Benetech 480 California Ave., Suite 201 Palo Alto, California 94306 US Read the VerticalResponse marketing policy: http://www.verticalresponse.com/content/pm_policy.html _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sat Jun 16 01:29:26 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:29:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: <70694A3E9EB8420FA67CB066FDB47900@OwnerPC> References: <70694A3E9EB8420FA67CB066FDB47900@OwnerPC> Message-ID: You can download them to anything, be it a Braille Notetaker, or computer, IPhone, etc. Blessings, Joshua On 6/15/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Considering that bookshare has blind staff like Alison Hiliker who was > active in Nabs and they were started for serving blind people, I suspect > they will still keep accessibility in mind. I think as they change the site, > > just test it out and report any access issues if you find them. > > I might get an account. Are their files all test? How do you all read them? > > Computer? Braille notetaker? > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 4:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage > > I received this E-mail, but my question is, how will this affect > accessibility? > Thanks, Joshua > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Bookshare > Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:46:48 +0000 > Subject: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage > To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu > > Dearr Members, > > Next week, we are rolling out some changes to the Bookshare homepage! > While much of the page like login and search will stay the same, > these updates will help new members to get started with Bookshare and > help existing members to use and manage their accounts. > > What's new? > > First, you will notice an updated main content section and sidebar. > The main content section will have described images and a large sign > up button for first-timers. The sidebar will contain a new book > counter, the existing and popular "Browse Book Lists", and a > Bookshare news section. > > Secondly, we are beginning to personalize the homepage. After you > log in, you'll see a welcome page that will include a simple search > box to help you find books. For new members, there will also be a > link to our "Getting Started" page. > > In the near future, we'll be adding more features and personalized > news and information to this section, so stay tuned! > > Do you want to help make Bookshare better? Join our testing program > and test drive new and upcoming features. Sign up today! - > http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/1b3e19e5a8 > > The Bookshare team > > Are you participating in the Bookshare Summer Reading Event? Learn > more! - > http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/39b4f5e600/utm_content=jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Text%20Version%20-%20Link%202&utm_campaign=Changes%20coming%20to%20Bookshare%20homepage > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Click to view this email in a browser > http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/266797/db27e969ec/1400066533/69d6259c0a/ > > If you no longer wish to receive these emails, please reply to this > message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on the > following link: > > http://cts.vresp.com/u?db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/mlpftw > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Benetech sent this email free of charge using VerticalResponse for > Non-Profits. Non-Profits email free. You email affordably. > > > Benetech > 480 California Ave., Suite 201 > Palo Alto, California 94306 > US > > > Read the VerticalResponse marketing policy: > http://www.verticalresponse.com/content/pm_policy.html > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 01:48:31 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:48:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs Convention Call. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Introducing the Nabs Membership call for June: "It's All About Convention 2012!" Whether you have been to the Convention of the national Federation of the Blind before or this year will be your first time going, come and hear all about what makes convention fun, informative and an experience you will most likely never forget! Join us as we hear from Sean Whalen,NABS president, who will be on hand to give you an overview of what events the National Association of Blind Students have planned and how you can help. Also Hear From Meleah Jensen, coordinator of the youth track activities at convention, and learn about the special events that are just for you, the high school and under crowd. Bring your convention experiences, and questions! When: Sunday, June 17, 7:15 PM Eastern. Where: Conference call: (712) 775-7100, passcode 257963. Your Nabs Membership Committee -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 01:50:20 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:50:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs airport call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: NABS Presents:Airports and Independent Travel. GreetingsNabs, No matter if you are planning on going on a summer vacation, heading home from campus for the summer, or going to the National Convention of the NFB (and we know that you’ll most certainly be doing the latter at least), we know that you’ll likely be hopping on the nearest (and cheapest) airplane you can find in order to do so. But before you print that ticket, grab those bags and hit the door, you might want to join the National Association of Blind Students for a call that will Make you feel “supa fly” ( ok… maybe just more confident about the whole flying and airport thing). Hear from guest speaker, NABS board member Dominique Lawless, as she gives pointers on how to navigate the airport scene with confidence,independence and, just as important… no stress! When: Sunday June 17, 6:30 p.m. ET Where: conference call: (712) 775-7100 Code: 257963 Nabs Membership Committee -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 04:11:21 2012 From: nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com (community service Outreach) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 23:11:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Community Service membership call Sunday, June 17th Message-ID: Hello, everyone! > > It's time once again for the Community Service Group's monthly membership > call! Come join us and learn about what's crackin' with the CS group at > National Convention. Get the 411 on our seminar, organizing meeting, and > first-ever community service project! > > When: Sunday, June 17 at 4 ET > Where: (218) 339-3600 passcode 808277 Hope to see you there! > > Julie Chair, Outreach Committee, Community Service Group > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 05:03:50 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:03:50 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: <70694A3E9EB8420FA67CB066FDB47900@OwnerPC> References: <70694A3E9EB8420FA67CB066FDB47900@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Braille+ Mobil manager all the way for books!!! I rarely use the Bookshare homepage as the BP has a special app for super fast downloading of books. But I think this is being developed with the goal to let blind readers enjoy their book searching much better. BTW before I got the fantastic BP, I downloaded the BRF frome Bookshare, opened thim with duxburry, hit ctrl t, hit ctrl a, hit ctrl c, opened up a word document, hit ctrl v and hit ctrl s. I then pasted them into my old Bookport's drive. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 6:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage Considering that bookshare has blind staff like Alison Hiliker who was active in Nabs and they were started for serving blind people, I suspect they will still keep accessibility in mind. I think as they change the site, just test it out and report any access issues if you find them. I might get an account. Are their files all test? How do you all read them? Computer? Braille notetaker? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 4:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage I received this E-mail, but my question is, how will this affect accessibility? Thanks, Joshua ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bookshare Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:46:48 +0000 Subject: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Dearr Members, Next week, we are rolling out some changes to the Bookshare homepage! While much of the page like login and search will stay the same, these updates will help new members to get started with Bookshare and help existing members to use and manage their accounts. What's new? First, you will notice an updated main content section and sidebar. The main content section will have described images and a large sign up button for first-timers. The sidebar will contain a new book counter, the existing and popular "Browse Book Lists", and a Bookshare news section. Secondly, we are beginning to personalize the homepage. After you log in, you'll see a welcome page that will include a simple search box to help you find books. For new members, there will also be a link to our "Getting Started" page. In the near future, we'll be adding more features and personalized news and information to this section, so stay tuned! Do you want to help make Bookshare better? Join our testing program and test drive new and upcoming features. Sign up today! - http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/1b3e19e5a8 The Bookshare team Are you participating in the Bookshare Summer Reading Event? Learn more! - http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/39b4f5e600/utm_content=jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Text%20Version%20-%20Link%202&utm_campaign=Changes%20coming%20to%20Bookshare%20homepage ______________________________________________________________________ Click to view this email in a browser http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/266797/db27e969ec/1400066533/69d6259c0a/ If you no longer wish to receive these emails, please reply to this message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on the following link: http://cts.vresp.com/u?db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/mlpftw ______________________________________________________________________ Benetech sent this email free of charge using VerticalResponse for Non-Profits. Non-Profits email free. You email affordably. Benetech 480 California Ave., Suite 201 Palo Alto, California 94306 US Read the VerticalResponse marketing policy: http://www.verticalresponse.com/content/pm_policy.html _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From gloria.graves at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 13:05:26 2012 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 08:05:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Gmail Message-ID: <1A51382F017543428E339B34A858ADAF@Gloria> Hi all, I was wondering if there was anyone who uses gmail? I saw there is a new set of options to mark messages with stars and for some reason my messages have been marked important without my doing and I am not able to place a check mark near them to erase them. Is there a way to erase all messages at one time instead of going one by one to check the box and erase them? I have my gmail message come through my outlook express and when I open outlook express and the messages come through it is suppose to be automatically erased from my gmail account, but this is not happening. Can anyone give me some pointers? Thanks From cassonw at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 15:38:58 2012 From: cassonw at gmail.com (Bill) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 09:38:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Gmail In-Reply-To: <1A51382F017543428E339B34A858ADAF@Gloria> References: <1A51382F017543428E339B34A858ADAF@Gloria> Message-ID: Disclaimer: The information I provide if from the point of view of the standard view, options and elements may very in the basic view. The stars have been around for quite a while, as long as gmail has been as far as I know. The thing with important is fairly new, gmail automatically determines what it thinks you find important based on your interactions with the messages. For example, if you always read and reply to messages from a particular person, gmail will mark those messages as important. You can turn this off in the general section of the gmail settings page. If you want to tell gmail that it was wrong in thinking that a message was important, open the message, at the top of the message, right before the H1 subject line, select the more button and arrow down to mark as not important. The same thing can be done to mark a message as important. As for your outlook express problem, I am assuming you are connecting to gmail using POP3 from outlook express. There are two places that determine whether or not email messages are deleted from GMail. The first is in the gmail settings where you set up the POP3 access, there is an option that says keep gmail's copy of messages, make sure this is not selected. Second, in outlook express, when you set it up, there is also an option that says something along the lines of delete messages from the server when downloaded. Feel free to email me if you have more questions. HTH, Bill On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 7:05 AM, Gloria G wrote: > Hi all, > I was wondering if there was anyone who uses gmail? I saw there is a new set of options to mark messages with stars and for some reason my messages have been marked important without my doing and I am not able to place a check mark near them to erase them. Is there a way to erase all messages at one time instead of going one by one to check the box and erase them? I have my gmail message come through my outlook express and when I open outlook express and the messages come through it is suppose to be automatically erased from my gmail account, but this is not happening. Can anyone give me some pointers? > Thanks > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com -- Bill Casson University of New Mexico M.S. Computer Science Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. (505) 695-1374 cassonw at gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 16 17:43:18 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 13:43:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Gmail In-Reply-To: <1A51382F017543428E339B34A858ADAF@Gloria> References: <1A51382F017543428E339B34A858ADAF@Gloria> Message-ID: good question. I need to erase some messages too from my college gmail account. are you using basic html setings? -----Original Message----- From: Gloria G Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:05 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Gmail Hi all, I was wondering if there was anyone who uses gmail? I saw there is a new set of options to mark messages with stars and for some reason my messages have been marked important without my doing and I am not able to place a check mark near them to erase them. Is there a way to erase all messages at one time instead of going one by one to check the box and erase them? I have my gmail message come through my outlook express and when I open outlook express and the messages come through it is suppose to be automatically erased from my gmail account, but this is not happening. Can anyone give me some pointers? Thanks _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From gloria.graves at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 17:58:17 2012 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 12:58:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Gmail References: <1A51382F017543428E339B34A858ADAF@Gloria> Message-ID: <9745D685DC3B4957A744ECBC5F66D7B3@Gloria> Yes I am. Do you know how to erase the emails all at once? It is a pain to go through every email erasing them one by one. Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Gmail > good question. I need to erase some messages too from my college gmail > account. > are you using basic html setings? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gloria G > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:05 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Gmail > > Hi all, > I was wondering if there was anyone who uses gmail? I saw there is a new > set of options to mark messages with stars and for some reason my messages > have been marked important without my doing and I am not able to place a > check mark near them to erase them. Is there a way to erase all messages > at one time instead of going one by one to check the box and erase them? I > have my gmail message come through my outlook express and when I open > outlook express and the messages come through it is suppose to be > automatically erased from my gmail account, but this is not happening. Can > anyone give me some pointers? > Thanks > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 16 19:35:46 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:35:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Gmail In-Reply-To: <9745D685DC3B4957A744ECBC5F66D7B3@Gloria> References: <1A51382F017543428E339B34A858ADAF@Gloria> <9745D685DC3B4957A744ECBC5F66D7B3@Gloria> Message-ID: <048ED5BF8B2047D99D5A3AE4C629E88A@OwnerPC> not sure, try the delete button -----Original Message----- From: Gloria G Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 1:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Gmail Yes I am. Do you know how to erase the emails all at once? It is a pain to go through every email erasing them one by one. Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Gmail > good question. I need to erase some messages too from my college gmail > account. > are you using basic html setings? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gloria G > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:05 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Gmail > > Hi all, > I was wondering if there was anyone who uses gmail? I saw there is a new > set of options to mark messages with stars and for some reason my messages > have been marked important without my doing and I am not able to place a > check mark near them to erase them. Is there a way to erase all messages > at one time instead of going one by one to check the box and erase them? I > have my gmail message come through my outlook express and when I open > outlook express and the messages come through it is suppose to be > automatically erased from my gmail account, but this is not happening. Can > anyone give me some pointers? > Thanks > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 21:09:12 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:09:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817ABF@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> References: <4fd6c2eb.20f3640a.383c.7de4@mx.google.com> <45E51C05-EF17-4DD5-B4CA-3A1F0DC88BA7@gmail.com> <22525334-F29E-4993-A874-B9BAEE49D03F@gmail.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817ABF@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: Hi all, Marc, I do see your point about using assistance at the airport to avoid having to ask questions of random passengers. I do sometimes feel awkward about asking questions and it is true that using assistance reduces the need to do this. However, I would point out that especially as you become a more experienced airport traveler and get to know your home airport well, the need to ask questions will decrease. Often when walking to a gate or going from a gate to baggage claim, there's just a long corridor with only two possible ways to go. So instead of requesting detailed information from someone, I can simply ask "Is this the right way to [gate X] and if it's not, simply turn around. Also, on certain parts of the journey like going to baggage claim,, everyone is going the same direction and so it's possible to get directional confirmation by listening and not even asking any questions at all. I don't have enough usable vision to make a difference in my airport travel at all. I agree that someone with a lot of vision might be able to use signage and visual landmarks for directions, but there are enough auditory and tactile landmarks (escalators, baggage carousels, cash registers at food stands, etc.) to orient as a totally blind person. Also, another way to reduce dependence on sighted folks at the airport is to call your airline ahead and get the gate number for your flight. It might change, but if you call right before you get to the airport, the chances of a gate change are pretty slim in my experience. You can confirm you are at the right gate by asking the person sitting behind the podium at that gate. If the gate location changes, this will be announced on the central P.A. system. I will also call my airline as soon as I land to find out what gate I landed at, which at least at my home airport, helps me find my way out more efficiently. Best, Arielle On 6/15/12, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: > The amount of vision you have may play a role in what travelling > preferences you have. Some useable vision can be very helpful in > navigating a new place. Without any vision, however, and air port can > be pretty confusing for most people. That being said, its totally > possible. If you fly into and out of a certain air port regularly, you > will probably just learn it after a while and won't have to keep getting > assistance, even with no vision but if you are in an unfamiliar air port > and have little to no vision, assistance may be more comfortable. > > Zunaira > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Marc Workman > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 2:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? > > Hello Arielle and others, > > NABS archives are publicly available. I found one of your old posts on > this topic through a quick google search. > http://nfbnet.org/pipermail/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/2011-December/061456.html > > On a side note, it's important to remember that this is a public list. > Anything we write here can be seen by an employer or colleague in the > future. Always worth keeping that in mind. > > I think, Arielle, you do a good job explaining the advantages and > techniques for travelling without official assistance through airports. > Because of the volunteer and academic work I do, and because of a long > distance relationship, I fly 15 or so round trips per year, which means > I'm going to the airport 30 or so times a year, and I always get > official assistance. I say official assistance because even if one is > not being assisted by airport or airline staff, I imagine there is a > fair bit of assistance received from other passengers. > > This is indeed a very personal choice. I have navigated in airports > without the assistance of airline staff, such as when I arrive early and > go for a bite to eat and then navigate from the restaurant to the gate. > So I have some experience doing it this way, but not a lot. You're right > that it's a safe environment with plenty of people to assist you, and > people should be encouraged to travel in the manner that they prefer. > > For me, though, the thought of regularly having to ask people around me > about where things are or even having them regularly asking me if I need > help is not very appealing. If I'm on the street looking for a > particular address, I'm fine with asking someone who passes by, but in > that case, I will have already gotten myself very close, and I only need > help identifying the specific door I want. But in an airport, I imagine > you would be asking one person after another. First check in, then > security, then possibly food or washroom, then gate, and each of these > might involve asking more than one person. A preference not to have to > repeatedly ask random strangers for assistance is probably the biggest > reason why I take the official assistance. > > I'm not denying the advantages of doing things the way you do, nor am I > trying to persuade anyone not to use those methods. I just have a hard > time imagining that that would be a very pleasant process, though I > admit that it can also be unpleasant when I receive the airline > assistance. > > Best, > > Marc > On 2012-06-14, at 10:15 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> Hi all, >> Thanks Humberto for your kind words, and yes I am following this >> discussion. :) I have written several long posts about flying on this >> list in the past, and I should have saved them somewhere, but I didn't > >> and I can't find them. I will offer a response here, but I think Greg >> did a pretty good job of starting out, so I won't repeat what he said. >> NABS is having a conference call on Sunday to discuss this topic, and >> I will try to sit in if I can in case there are questions I can >> answer, although I am confident Domonique will do a good job. >> I would, however, like to offer some little-known advantages of >> choosing to navigate the airport without assistance. I completely >> think it is fine to take assistance for any reason, and the choice to >> do so or not is an individual one. However, I think sometimes we are >> taught that the only good way to get through the airport is with help, > >> and we don't necessarily think about other viable alternatives. I have > >> done it both with and without assistance, but prefer to do it without, > >> unless I am very rushed, have a ton of baggage or am not feeling well. >> Here are some reasons I prefer to do it this way: >> >> 1. It's nice to go wherever I want whenever I want without feeling as >> though I have a babysitter. If I have extra time at the airport, I >> will usually not go right to the gate, but will often browse food >> options or just walk around. With an assistant, I feel I have to go >> right to the gate. >> 2. It's not always faster. As Greg mentioned, sometimes there's a >> wait, and sometimes the escorts want to take a whole group of people >> at once, which slows things down. Particularly when I get to my >> destination, I am often restless and just want to get my bags and get >> in a cab as soon as I can. Without assistance I can control how long >> it takes. When I was flying back from Australia alone, I had a tight >> connection and requested assistance, but I insisted on meeting my >> escort at baggage claim, not right at the gate. I was told I'd have to > >> wait for the entire plane to deboard before getting assistance at the >> gate, so I rushed to baggage claim on my own and met my escort there. >> As it happened, I was the last person to walk through the doors on my >> connecting plane because the time was so short; if I had waited for >> assistance at the gate, I would have missed that flight. >> 3. No fighting with someone about whether you need a wheelchair, >> golf-cart, preboarding or other accommodations. You can just do what >> you want. >> 4. On a related note, sometimes when I take assistance, my name gets >> put into the airline's system as a disabled passenger, and I can't >> always control what assumptions are made about my needs by the >> airline. If I want assistance on just one leg of the trip, it's harder > >> for me to refuse it on the other leg because I've been pegged as a >> disabled passenger. >> 5. No worries about communication barriers between you and your >> escort. Last fall I flew home to visit my parents and I had a bug bite > >> on my foot that swelled up making it painful to walk, so I decided to >> get assistance to reduce the amount of walking. My escort was not a >> native English speaker and got confused when I said I wanted to stop >> at McDonald's before going to my gate. He thought I was asking him to >> escort me onto the plane itself which he wasn't allowed to do and had >> to find another employee to interpret before he understood what I was >> telling him. Without assistance, again, you can go wherever you want >> without having to communicate with someone else about it. >> 6. Perhaps related to (5)--international travel. While I have only >> been to Australia by myself and they do provide assistance there, I >> would guess that in many countries assistance is hard to get, and >> finding an escort who speaks your language is probably even more >> difficult. If you know the basics of independent airport travel, you >> can literally go anywhere in the world by yourself. >> >> So how do I do it without help? Not by magic, but a lot of good old >> listening for sound cues and asking questions along the way. I can >> find security by listening for the sound of the metal detectors, and >> will ask someone if I am getting close. Fellow passengers can often be > >> very helpful in this regard and it's no inconvenience to them if >> they're going the same way. To find your gate, look for a carpeted >> area which will often have a TV or radio playing, and ask what gate >> number you are at and for general directions to your gate. When it's >> time to board, simply follow the line of other passengers past the >> desk and down the jetway. The main thing to remember is that an >> airport is enclosed and so it is impossible to get seriously lost. If >> you get off track, all you need to do is ask one person for >> clarification and you can get back on track. I say all this as someone > >> who has never been good at travel and who still gets nervous sometimes > >> about walking around in big open parking lots or crossing unfamiliar >> streets. If you have more specific questions, feel free to write me >> off-list, call me at >> 602-502-2255 >> or come to the call on Sunday and ask me or Domonique. >> >> One more thing--I generally don't use the "disabled" security lines or > >> pre-board unless, again, I have a lot of luggage or am not feeling >> well. Everyone has a different approach to these things, and I respect > >> all views on this matter, but for me it's a philosophy issue. If I am >> moving around the airport independently, I want to be treated like any > >> other passenger, not babysat or coddled. In order to be treated like >> one, I believe I need to put up with all the same inconveniences of >> waiting in line and waiting my turn to board as anyone else. I also >> don't feel it's fair to cut ahead of folks who got in line before me >> or who checked in before I did, since my blindness doesn't impact my >> ability to stand or to move down the jetway as other disabilities >> might. Since these accommodations are irrelevant to my blindness, I >> feel it is just as inappropriate for me to take them as it would be >> for a sighted, nondisabled person to do so. I feel fairly strongly >> about this, and usually have to negotiate with airline personnel who >> try to redirect me. They will even do this when I am traveling with my > >> boyfriend, and infuriate me even more by talking to him instead of to >> me about it. I do sometimes make an exception if I have a big bag >> because that does tend to mess up my navigation and slow me down a >> little bit, a problem I probably wouldn't have if I were sighted, so >> I'll cut so as to not inconvenience others. Of course, if you are >> using assistance, the employee escort will probably want to skip the >> line in order to save his/her own time, which I think is fine. >> Arielle >> >> On 6/11/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Wow, the below is pretty much exactly what I do! :O... I totally >>> believe in >>> >>> asking from help from the get go, right as soon as you walk in the > door. >>> Airlines are often really good at getting you to where you need to >>> go. They >>> >>> don't always know what Sighted Guide is though, so you'll probably >>> need to ask them if you can please hold their elbow. >>> I often make some joke about how their elbow and I are having a nice >>> conversation about what's coming up as we're walking if they still >>> are grabbing me despite me holding their elbow in one hand and my >>> cane in the other. That usually helps. I also shrug off the >>> wheelchair, saying it's way >>> >>> too slow. I do however love the little golf carts they sometimes take > >>> you around in, those are way faster than I could walk! >>> But traveling with help gets you to the front of the line and keeps >>> you from >>> >>> missing the flight. Also the airplane attendants know you're blind >>> and let you know when they're coming by with the garbage or food so >>> you don't miss it! >>> What I'm anxious to know is how traveling overseas works... Non parlo > >>> Italiano! LOL Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Greg Aikens >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:58 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] vacation tips please? >>> >>> Hi Beth, >>> Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I >>> generally >>> >>> handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. If I am >>> taking a >>> >>> cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the curb side >>> check-in for my airline if it is available. That way I can ditch my >>> checked bags as early as possible, because I feel like they make >>> navigating independently a >>> >>> little more difficult. If you do curb side check-in, it is generally > >>> expected that you tip the person handling your bags. You can choose >>> to follow this convention or not. I have done both. >>> If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the >>> part of >>> >>> the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have the >>> shortest path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will listen > >>> for the counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. If it >>> is the wrong one, they generally redirect me to the correct counter. > >>> There are often airline employees helping passengers in line to >>> answer questions etc. so keep an ear out. >>> >>> Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I >>> ask for >>> >>> assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this >>> independently, >>> >>> but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get assistance >>> with this >>> >>> step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes for them to get >>> someone up there to assist you, but I make sure I am waiting in an >>> area where there is >>> >>> an employee I can ask to make sure I have not been forgotten. These >>> people >>> >>> have generally been helpful to me and have understood when I refused >>> a wheelchair. Occasionally you'll get someone who just doesn't get >>> it, but if >>> >>> you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. >>> >>> When you get to security there is generally a line designated for >>> passengers >>> >>> with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes slower >>> than the >>> >>> main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for assistance, you >>> can ask >>> >>> the person with you to help judge the lines. At security, you have >>> to put everything you have into a bin, including your shoes. I >>> usually put my cane >>> >>> through the scanner with all my other stuff, but I think I have heard > >>> of people who keep it with them when they pass through the metal >>> detector. I find it simpler to put the cane through and trail the >>> side of the machine up >>> >>> to the metal detector gate. At that point I ask the security person >>> to reach their hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk >>> straight through the metal detector without touching the sides. All >>> in all, I am separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. >>> >>> The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact >>> with the >>> >>> people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to the >>> desk. I usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, you >>> can choose to do >>> >>> this or not. >>> >>> The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are >>> there to >>> >>> help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever uncomfortable, > >>> you should definitely say something. You are the one in control, and > >>> sometimes >>> >>> airport staff need to be reminded of that. Remember that you are >>> allowed to >>> >>> keep your cane with you at all times, with the possible exception of >>> passing >>> >>> through the metal detector. >>> >>> I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is > helpful. >>> Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm >>>> actually flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like >>>> some practical no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and > airport stuff period. >>>> How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to >>>> get into >>>> >>>> the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might ask >>>> me to sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've >>>> planned a trip without a group of blind people or family around. I >>>> would like to get some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and >>>> how much it usually would cost for you Denver people to go from east > Denver, my house, to DIA. >>>> >>>> Thanks, guys. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail >>>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs >>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40g >> mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. > fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 22:02:22 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 16:02:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Audio Description In-Reply-To: <35CF79A0-9C33-48D4-ADD1-7FD4C4043418@gmail.com> References: <35CF79A0-9C33-48D4-ADD1-7FD4C4043418@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is nice, but how does a blind viewer activate the description on his or her TV? If there's a feature that has to be turned on or off, possibly set for each show, is this feature accessible? I suspect that oftentimes it's not, which in my view negates the whole purpose of this initiative. It'd be a real shame if networks were spending thousands of dollars on a service that blind viewers could not activate or customize without sighted assistance! I recall when I was still living at home-in middle or high school, perhaps-there were one or two shows that had an optional audio-description feature, but I don't think I could reliably turn it on without sighted assistance. That would have been in the late 1990's, and TV sets have become infinitely more complex since then. I hope I'm wrong and the activation process does not rely on menus or touch-screen inputs. Arielle On 6/15/12, Jewel wrote: > Do I need anything to get this? I look forward to described shows > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 15, 2012, at 6:05 AM, David Andrews wrote: > >> >> Beginning July 1, ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC, plus the top five cable networks >> will begin providing audio descriptions of some of their programming for >> blind or sight-impaired viewers. The shows to be described range from >> ABC's Modern Family to CBS's NCIS to Nickelodeon's Dora the Explorer to >> USA's Royal Pains. >> >> For now, stations in the top 25 markets and cable systems with 50,000 or >> more subs will be required to offer about four hours a week of the new >> service. The number of stations and hours will gradually increase. >> >> Starting July 1, the country’s 21.5 million visually impaired people will >> be able to enjoy TV more than ever before. >> >> On that day, the Big Four broadcast networks and the top five-rated cable >> networks will begin offering four hours a week of so-called video >> descriptions that clue in blind and partially sighted viewers on what's >> going on when the characters aren't talking. The descriptions, audible >> only to viewers who want them to be audible, are squeezed in between the >> dialog. >> >> Video descriptions have been part of broadcasting, cable, home video, but >> never to the extent on TV as they will be beginning next month. >> >> It's not altruism driving the surge in descriptions. They were mandated by >> Congress in the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act of >> 2010. >> >> According to the FCC's implementing rules, the Big Four O&Os and >> affiliates in the top 25 markets will have to air 50 hours each quarter ­ >> or roughly four hours a week ­ of described programming. >> >> Cable and satellite systems with at least 50,000 subscribers have to offer >> the same amount of described programming for the top five-rated cable >> networks ­ currently Disney, Nickelodeon, TBS, TNT and USA. >> >> And with just weeks to go before the deadline, the described programming >> plans of nine affected networks are shaping up. >> >> ABC’s plan is to provide descriptions on some of its Tuesday and Wednesday >> shows. This summer, those shows include sitcoms Last Man Standing, The >> Middle, Suburgatory, Modern Family, Happy Endings and Don't Trust the >> B---- in Apt. 23. >> >> In the fall, ABC will likely include most of those shows and new sitcom >> The Neighbors and new drama Nashville. >> >> CBS has been providing audio descriptions for several programs since 2002. >> The lineup is CSI, Criminal Minds, NCIS, NCIS: Los Angeles, plus movies >> and miniseries. >> >> NBC has broadcast a slew of shows with descriptions, including the Betty >> White reality show Off Their Rockers, drama Grimm and the summer series >> Saving Hope. Described sitcoms include The Office, Up All Night and Parks >> and Recreation. >> >> At Fox, The Simpsons has been audio described for several years. Beyond >> the animated sitcom, Fox isn't prepared to say what it would be offering. >> >> Disney Channel's described shows will include hit sitcoms Jessie, A.N.T. >> Farm and the animated Phineas and Ferb. >> >> Nickelodeon will offer descriptions for some of its biggest hits, like the >> long-running animated Dora the Explorer and preschool educational show >> Team Umizoomi. >> >> Turner Broadcasting will have described movies as well as TV series. Among >> the series: TNT’s The Closer and TBS’s Tyler Perry comedies House of Payne >> and For Better or Worse. >> >> USA’s described programs will include off-network shows NCIS and Law & >> Order: SVU, plus originals like Royal Pains and Suits. >> >> “My hope is that more and more networks will embrace these accessibility >> initiatives,” says Joel Snyder, president of Audio Description Associates. >> He serves as director of the American Council of the Blind’s audio >> description project and is an adviser to the FCC. >> >> “If they do it right, they'll find ways to make money from it. If they >> make their shows accessible to these folks, there is a bigger market for >> advertisers to sell their products.” >> >> For the most part, video-described programs won't include live shows or >> news. The networks, which are providing most of this content to their >> affiliates, need time to write description scripts for voice artists to >> record. >> >> “It takes longer to get that done than closed captioning,” says one >> network executive. “It also requires us to look at how our post-production >> schedules are set up. We have to work very closely with the folks at the >> post-production houses to make sure we get the programming to our vendors >> with sufficient time to get the video description correct.” >> >> Producing the descriptions costs between $2,000 to $4,000 per hour. >> >> The networks and some associations for the blind are helping to ensure >> that people with vision problems know that descriptions are coming. >> >> “It’s great for the networks to comply, but what’s more important is >> getting the information out to folks,” says Helena Berger, EVP-COO of the >> American Association of People with Disabilities. She is also a member of >> Comcast-NBCUniversal’s joint diversity council. >> >> “What we can do on our end at AAPD is to use our communication channels, >> like our newsletter, our website and social media to get the word out to >> the community.” >> >> Some of the networks are creating logos and audio tones so that people >> with vision problems know when a program has audio descriptions. So far, >> there isn't an industry standard. >> >> And TV listing providers like Tribune Media Services will provide data to >> programming services to let them know if a program is audio-described. >> Then, it’s up to individual cable systems to add symbols or sounds to >> their on-screen listings. >> >> These described programs are the culmination of a 12-year battle by the >> FCC and groups such as the Audio Description Institute. They thought they >> had won the battle in 2000 when the FCC adopted rules similar to the 2010 >> act, but a court agreed with broadcasters that the agency had overstepped >> its authority. >> >> Now backed by law, the new FCC rules gradually expand the description >> obligations to other TV stations. By July 1, 2015, major network >> affiliates in the top 60 markets will have to broadcast the descriptions. >> The FCC may require additional stations to air descriptions at a rate of >> 10 markets a year if it deems the cost is reasonable. >> >> According to broadcasters, it costs stations anywhere from $10,000 and >> $25,000 to install the gear necessary to handle the extra audio channel. >> >> Just because someone has a disability doesn't mean they don't want to be >> included in life,” says Debra Ruh, chief marketing officer at SSB Bart >> Group, a firm that helps companies make their computer services and >> websites fully compliant and accessible to people with disabilities. “Part >> of participating in life is being able to experience television. TV is a >> very important part of our culture.” >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 16 23:17:44 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 19:17:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Audio Description In-Reply-To: References: <35CF79A0-9C33-48D4-ADD1-7FD4C4043418@gmail.com> Message-ID: <845B412CB85C47FDB4E855AE9906AFA8@OwnerPC> Arielle, I was going to say the same thing. We have more and more on screen menus. I know if I want description on a DVD, I needed sighted help. I suspect that it’s the same for audio description now on tv. -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 6:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Audio Description This is nice, but how does a blind viewer activate the description on his or her TV? If there's a feature that has to be turned on or off, possibly set for each show, is this feature accessible? I suspect that oftentimes it's not, which in my view negates the whole purpose of this initiative. It'd be a real shame if networks were spending thousands of dollars on a service that blind viewers could not activate or customize without sighted assistance! I recall when I was still living at home-in middle or high school, perhaps-there were one or two shows that had an optional audio-description feature, but I don't think I could reliably turn it on without sighted assistance. That would have been in the late 1990's, and TV sets have become infinitely more complex since then. I hope I'm wrong and the activation process does not rely on menus or touch-screen inputs. Arielle On 6/15/12, Jewel wrote: > Do I need anything to get this? I look forward to described shows > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 15, 2012, at 6:05 AM, David Andrews wrote: > >> >> Beginning July 1, ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC, plus the top five cable networks >> will begin providing audio descriptions of some of their programming for >> blind or sight-impaired viewers. The shows to be described range from >> ABC's Modern Family to CBS's NCIS to Nickelodeon's Dora the Explorer to >> USA's Royal Pains. >> >> For now, stations in the top 25 markets and cable systems with 50,000 or >> more subs will be required to offer about four hours a week of the new >> service. The number of stations and hours will gradually increase. >> >> Starting July 1, the country’s 21.5 million visually impaired people will >> be able to enjoy TV more than ever before. >> >> On that day, the Big Four broadcast networks and the top five-rated cable >> networks will begin offering four hours a week of so-called video >> descriptions that clue in blind and partially sighted viewers on what's >> going on when the characters aren't talking. The descriptions, audible >> only to viewers who want them to be audible, are squeezed in between the >> dialog. >> >> Video descriptions have been part of broadcasting, cable, home video, but >> never to the extent on TV as they will be beginning next month. >> >> It's not altruism driving the surge in descriptions. They were mandated >> by >> Congress in the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act >> of >> 2010. >> >> According to the FCC's implementing rules, the Big Four O&Os and >> affiliates in the top 25 markets will have to air 50 hours each quarter ­ >> or roughly four hours a week ­ of described programming. >> >> Cable and satellite systems with at least 50,000 subscribers have to >> offer >> the same amount of described programming for the top five-rated cable >> networks ­ currently Disney, Nickelodeon, TBS, TNT and USA. >> >> And with just weeks to go before the deadline, the described programming >> plans of nine affected networks are shaping up. >> >> ABC’s plan is to provide descriptions on some of its Tuesday and >> Wednesday >> shows. This summer, those shows include sitcoms Last Man Standing, The >> Middle, Suburgatory, Modern Family, Happy Endings and Don't Trust the >> B---- in Apt. 23. >> >> In the fall, ABC will likely include most of those shows and new sitcom >> The Neighbors and new drama Nashville. >> >> CBS has been providing audio descriptions for several programs since >> 2002. >> The lineup is CSI, Criminal Minds, NCIS, NCIS: Los Angeles, plus movies >> and miniseries. >> >> NBC has broadcast a slew of shows with descriptions, including the Betty >> White reality show Off Their Rockers, drama Grimm and the summer series >> Saving Hope. Described sitcoms include The Office, Up All Night and Parks >> and Recreation. >> >> At Fox, The Simpsons has been audio described for several years. Beyond >> the animated sitcom, Fox isn't prepared to say what it would be offering. >> >> Disney Channel's described shows will include hit sitcoms Jessie, A.N.T. >> Farm and the animated Phineas and Ferb. >> >> Nickelodeon will offer descriptions for some of its biggest hits, like >> the >> long-running animated Dora the Explorer and preschool educational show >> Team Umizoomi. >> >> Turner Broadcasting will have described movies as well as TV series. >> Among >> the series: TNT’s The Closer and TBS’s Tyler Perry comedies House of >> Payne >> and For Better or Worse. >> >> USA’s described programs will include off-network shows NCIS and Law & >> Order: SVU, plus originals like Royal Pains and Suits. >> >> “My hope is that more and more networks will embrace these accessibility >> initiatives,” says Joel Snyder, president of Audio Description >> Associates. >> He serves as director of the American Council of the Blind’s audio >> description project and is an adviser to the FCC. >> >> “If they do it right, they'll find ways to make money from it. If they >> make their shows accessible to these folks, there is a bigger market for >> advertisers to sell their products.” >> >> For the most part, video-described programs won't include live shows or >> news. The networks, which are providing most of this content to their >> affiliates, need time to write description scripts for voice artists to >> record. >> >> “It takes longer to get that done than closed captioning,” says one >> network executive. “It also requires us to look at how our >> post-production >> schedules are set up. We have to work very closely with the folks at the >> post-production houses to make sure we get the programming to our vendors >> with sufficient time to get the video description correct.” >> >> Producing the descriptions costs between $2,000 to $4,000 per hour. >> >> The networks and some associations for the blind are helping to ensure >> that people with vision problems know that descriptions are coming. >> >> “It’s great for the networks to comply, but what’s more important is >> getting the information out to folks,” says Helena Berger, EVP-COO of the >> American Association of People with Disabilities. She is also a member of >> Comcast-NBCUniversal’s joint diversity council. >> >> “What we can do on our end at AAPD is to use our communication channels, >> like our newsletter, our website and social media to get the word out to >> the community.” >> >> Some of the networks are creating logos and audio tones so that people >> with vision problems know when a program has audio descriptions. So far, >> there isn't an industry standard. >> >> And TV listing providers like Tribune Media Services will provide data to >> programming services to let them know if a program is audio-described. >> Then, it’s up to individual cable systems to add symbols or sounds to >> their on-screen listings. >> >> These described programs are the culmination of a 12-year battle by the >> FCC and groups such as the Audio Description Institute. They thought they >> had won the battle in 2000 when the FCC adopted rules similar to the 2010 >> act, but a court agreed with broadcasters that the agency had overstepped >> its authority. >> >> Now backed by law, the new FCC rules gradually expand the description >> obligations to other TV stations. By July 1, 2015, major network >> affiliates in the top 60 markets will have to broadcast the descriptions. >> The FCC may require additional stations to air descriptions at a rate of >> 10 markets a year if it deems the cost is reasonable. >> >> According to broadcasters, it costs stations anywhere from $10,000 and >> $25,000 to install the gear necessary to handle the extra audio channel. >> >> Just because someone has a disability doesn't mean they don't want to be >> included in life,” says Debra Ruh, chief marketing officer at SSB Bart >> Group, a firm that helps companies make their computer services and >> websites fully compliant and accessible to people with disabilities. >> “Part >> of participating in life is being able to experience television. TV is a >> very important part of our culture.” >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 23:55:21 2012 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 17:55:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Audio Description In-Reply-To: References: <35CF79A0-9C33-48D4-ADD1-7FD4C4043418@gmail.com> Message-ID: <659FB67F-FCF2-4EBB-BF64-01ED0583B63F@gmail.com> How easy or difficult it will be to access will depend on your provider and the hardware your using. In Canada, there are a couple of providers that have made it quite easy to access (e.g., one button on a remote). This has meant they often receive complaints from people who have accidentally turned it on and do not know how to turn it off. To avoid this, others have set it up so that you have to hold two buttons down for several seconds. Easy enough to do if that's what you want to do, but not likely something you'll do accidentally. However, there are still many providers up here that require a person to go fairly deep into a menu structure without any audio feedback whatsoever. If you wrote down the steps or performed them regularly, it would be possible to turn on and off DV, but it's not a very accessible process. All of that said, the process will eventually become more accessible as a result of the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act. Eventually, there will be regulations that require it to be an accessible process. Though that could technically be 3 to 5 years out. I'm hoping it's sooner because the technology we use in Canada is the same as you use in the US. In the UK and Australia, they have already made available a talking set top box. The accessible technology is available, there just doesn't seem to have been a serious push for it in the states. Best, Marc On 2012-06-16, at 4:02 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > This is nice, but how does a blind viewer activate the description on > his or her TV? If there's a feature that has to be turned on or off, > possibly set for each show, is this feature accessible? I suspect that > oftentimes it's not, which in my view negates the whole purpose of > this initiative. It'd be a real shame if networks were spending > thousands of dollars on a service that blind viewers could not > activate or customize without sighted assistance! > I recall when I was still living at home-in middle or high school, > perhaps-there were one or two shows that had an optional > audio-description feature, but I don't think I could reliably turn it > on without sighted assistance. That would have been in the late > 1990's, and TV sets have become infinitely more complex since then. > I hope I'm wrong and the activation process does not rely on menus or > touch-screen inputs. > Arielle > > On 6/15/12, Jewel wrote: >> Do I need anything to get this? I look forward to described shows >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jun 15, 2012, at 6:05 AM, David Andrews wrote: >> >>> >>> Beginning July 1, ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC, plus the top five cable networks >>> will begin providing audio descriptions of some of their programming for >>> blind or sight-impaired viewers. The shows to be described range from >>> ABC's Modern Family to CBS's NCIS to Nickelodeon's Dora the Explorer to >>> USA's Royal Pains. >>> >>> For now, stations in the top 25 markets and cable systems with 50,000 or >>> more subs will be required to offer about four hours a week of the new >>> service. The number of stations and hours will gradually increase. >>> >>> Starting July 1, the country’s 21.5 million visually impaired people will >>> be able to enjoy TV more than ever before. >>> >>> On that day, the Big Four broadcast networks and the top five-rated cable >>> networks will begin offering four hours a week of so-called video >>> descriptions that clue in blind and partially sighted viewers on what's >>> going on when the characters aren't talking. The descriptions, audible >>> only to viewers who want them to be audible, are squeezed in between the >>> dialog. >>> >>> Video descriptions have been part of broadcasting, cable, home video, but >>> never to the extent on TV as they will be beginning next month. >>> >>> It's not altruism driving the surge in descriptions. They were mandated by >>> Congress in the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act of >>> 2010. >>> >>> According to the FCC's implementing rules, the Big Four O&Os and >>> affiliates in the top 25 markets will have to air 50 hours each quarter ­ >>> or roughly four hours a week ­ of described programming. >>> >>> Cable and satellite systems with at least 50,000 subscribers have to offer >>> the same amount of described programming for the top five-rated cable >>> networks ­ currently Disney, Nickelodeon, TBS, TNT and USA. >>> >>> And with just weeks to go before the deadline, the described programming >>> plans of nine affected networks are shaping up. >>> >>> ABC’s plan is to provide descriptions on some of its Tuesday and Wednesday >>> shows. This summer, those shows include sitcoms Last Man Standing, The >>> Middle, Suburgatory, Modern Family, Happy Endings and Don't Trust the >>> B---- in Apt. 23. >>> >>> In the fall, ABC will likely include most of those shows and new sitcom >>> The Neighbors and new drama Nashville. >>> >>> CBS has been providing audio descriptions for several programs since 2002. >>> The lineup is CSI, Criminal Minds, NCIS, NCIS: Los Angeles, plus movies >>> and miniseries. >>> >>> NBC has broadcast a slew of shows with descriptions, including the Betty >>> White reality show Off Their Rockers, drama Grimm and the summer series >>> Saving Hope. Described sitcoms include The Office, Up All Night and Parks >>> and Recreation. >>> >>> At Fox, The Simpsons has been audio described for several years. Beyond >>> the animated sitcom, Fox isn't prepared to say what it would be offering. >>> >>> Disney Channel's described shows will include hit sitcoms Jessie, A.N.T. >>> Farm and the animated Phineas and Ferb. >>> >>> Nickelodeon will offer descriptions for some of its biggest hits, like the >>> long-running animated Dora the Explorer and preschool educational show >>> Team Umizoomi. >>> >>> Turner Broadcasting will have described movies as well as TV series. Among >>> the series: TNT’s The Closer and TBS’s Tyler Perry comedies House of Payne >>> and For Better or Worse. >>> >>> USA’s described programs will include off-network shows NCIS and Law & >>> Order: SVU, plus originals like Royal Pains and Suits. >>> >>> “My hope is that more and more networks will embrace these accessibility >>> initiatives,” says Joel Snyder, president of Audio Description Associates. >>> He serves as director of the American Council of the Blind’s audio >>> description project and is an adviser to the FCC. >>> >>> “If they do it right, they'll find ways to make money from it. If they >>> make their shows accessible to these folks, there is a bigger market for >>> advertisers to sell their products.” >>> >>> For the most part, video-described programs won't include live shows or >>> news. The networks, which are providing most of this content to their >>> affiliates, need time to write description scripts for voice artists to >>> record. >>> >>> “It takes longer to get that done than closed captioning,” says one >>> network executive. “It also requires us to look at how our post-production >>> schedules are set up. We have to work very closely with the folks at the >>> post-production houses to make sure we get the programming to our vendors >>> with sufficient time to get the video description correct.” >>> >>> Producing the descriptions costs between $2,000 to $4,000 per hour. >>> >>> The networks and some associations for the blind are helping to ensure >>> that people with vision problems know that descriptions are coming. >>> >>> “It’s great for the networks to comply, but what’s more important is >>> getting the information out to folks,” says Helena Berger, EVP-COO of the >>> American Association of People with Disabilities. She is also a member of >>> Comcast-NBCUniversal’s joint diversity council. >>> >>> “What we can do on our end at AAPD is to use our communication channels, >>> like our newsletter, our website and social media to get the word out to >>> the community.” >>> >>> Some of the networks are creating logos and audio tones so that people >>> with vision problems know when a program has audio descriptions. So far, >>> there isn't an industry standard. >>> >>> And TV listing providers like Tribune Media Services will provide data to >>> programming services to let them know if a program is audio-described. >>> Then, it’s up to individual cable systems to add symbols or sounds to >>> their on-screen listings. >>> >>> These described programs are the culmination of a 12-year battle by the >>> FCC and groups such as the Audio Description Institute. They thought they >>> had won the battle in 2000 when the FCC adopted rules similar to the 2010 >>> act, but a court agreed with broadcasters that the agency had overstepped >>> its authority. >>> >>> Now backed by law, the new FCC rules gradually expand the description >>> obligations to other TV stations. By July 1, 2015, major network >>> affiliates in the top 60 markets will have to broadcast the descriptions. >>> The FCC may require additional stations to air descriptions at a rate of >>> 10 markets a year if it deems the cost is reasonable. >>> >>> According to broadcasters, it costs stations anywhere from $10,000 and >>> $25,000 to install the gear necessary to handle the extra audio channel. >>> >>> Just because someone has a disability doesn't mean they don't want to be >>> included in life,” says Debra Ruh, chief marketing officer at SSB Bart >>> Group, a firm that helps companies make their computer services and >>> websites fully compliant and accessible to people with disabilities. “Part >>> of participating in life is being able to experience television. TV is a >>> very important part of our culture.” >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 04:43:28 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:43:28 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] E-book Accessibility Message-ID: Hi all, After several years of graduate seminar courses that didn't have textbooks, I am needing to take one more course this fall (a statistics course) that does have an assigned textbook. The textbook is not available in any of my usual databases (not surprising since it's math) so I requested it from Bookshare, but would like to have a backup option in case Bookshare isn't able to get it done by August. I looked on the publisher's website and found that the book is available for purchase as an E-book in "Epub" format. Apparently the book can be read on a PC using "Adobe Digital Editions" or on a mobile device using specific third-party apps such as "TXTR". The last time I tried to do this, back in 2007, I couldn't find an accessible way to read a mainstream E-book, but I know it's been five years and perhaps we've made some progress in this area? Anyway, do any of you have experience reading EPub files or used Adobe Digital Editions? Is Adobe Digital Editions accessible or if not, is it possible to convert an EPub file to text using a converter like RoboBraille? Also, has anyone successfully used any of the mainstream iPhone apps for E-books? Thanks for your help, Arielle From liamskitten at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 05:12:38 2012 From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Courtney Stover) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 00:12:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] E-book Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arielle, The following method comes with a major caveat; I have never personally utalized it. However, the principle behind the procedure seems sound. If anyone knows this procedure to be unworkable, please say so. >From what I understand, those EPub files are readable with the listed applications if you keep them in their native format. However, there is, apparently, a rather simple way to convert EPub to text. Apparently, you can change the file extension to .zip instead of .epub. Then, you can use a program like Winzip to unzip the file. What that is supposed to leave you with is a folder full of HTML files. Then, you can simply copy/paste the HTML files in to text files, or whatever format you prefer. There is also apparently a program called Stanza (am not sure about the spelling; if a quick Google doesn't find it, I'll be more than glad to look up the proper spelling) that performs conversions for you. I've been told it is accessible. Here's another idea for you: you can request that Bookshare initially upload what they refer to as the "raw scan" I had to do this because of significant delays with textbooks. You receive this scan much more quickly, and because of their scanning methods, it is highly readable. Then, they can upload a proofread version later. I think they only do this in urgent circumstances, but I would say that your situation applies. I hope some of this is helpful. Regards, Courtney From bre.brown24 at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 08:03:14 2012 From: bre.brown24 at gmail.com (Bre Brown) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 02:03:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Placement tests Message-ID: Hi, Has anyone taken the ACU Placer for college students? If so, what format did you take it in? What were your thoughts about the test? Bre From freethaught at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 11:41:33 2012 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 07:41:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] roommate for select days Message-ID: <4FDDC26D.9010009@gmail.com> I have a room at convention and am looking for a male roommate for June 29, and July 5. Email me if interested. Antonio freethaught at gmail.com -- Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 11:32:26 2012 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania Ismail CMT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 08:32:26 -0300 Subject: [nabs-l] Placement tests In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi I took it back in 2007. I had someone read the questions from the reding section on a computer and put my answers in. The next time I took it I took it in Braille. I didn't pass it either time I took it. I am not sure what to say as far as my thaughts about the test go. Rania, -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bre Brown Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 5:03 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Placement tests Hi, Has anyone taken the ACU Placer for college students? If so, what format did you take it in? What were your thoughts about the test? Bre _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co m From mworkman.lists at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 16:12:22 2012 From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:12:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] E-book Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An important factor is whether the book includes digital rights management (DRM). I have a Mac app called bookle that allows one to read unprotected EPUB files, and I can simply copy and paste into a word processor if I prefer to read it that way. I assume something similar exists for Windows, but I'm less familiar with that platform now. Apple's iBooks app on IOS will allow you to read EPUB as well. I don't actually know if it allows you to read protected files or only unprotected ones. My guess is some protected but not all; that's only a guess though. I've also heard of people successfully using Kobo and Stanza on IOS, though I don't have personal experience with these apps. If the file has DRM, you will have a harder time accessing it. It is possible to strip DRM, and in Canada at least, this is legal if your purpose is to create an accessible copy for a person with a perceptual disability, but I haven't had to do this, so I don't know what tools you would need and whether they are accessible. Best, Marc On 2012-06-16, at 10:43 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > After several years of graduate seminar courses that didn't have > textbooks, I am needing to take one more course this fall (a > statistics course) that does have an assigned textbook. The textbook > is not available in any of my usual databases (not surprising since > it's math) so I requested it from Bookshare, but would like to have a > backup option in case Bookshare isn't able to get it done by August. I > looked on the publisher's website and found that the book is available > for purchase as an E-book in "Epub" format. Apparently the book can be > read on a PC using "Adobe Digital Editions" or on a mobile device > using specific third-party apps such as "TXTR". The last time I tried > to do this, back in 2007, I couldn't find an accessible way to read a > mainstream E-book, but I know it's been five years and perhaps we've > made some progress in this area? Anyway, do any of you have experience > reading EPub files or used Adobe Digital Editions? Is Adobe Digital > Editions accessible or if not, is it possible to convert an EPub file > to text using a converter like RoboBraille? Also, has anyone > successfully used any of the mainstream iPhone apps for E-books? > Thanks for your help, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Jun 17 16:19:08 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 11:19:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] E-book Accessibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, two things. You might want to ask on our blindmath list, http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org Secondly, you may not be able to read these books depending on how they represent math symbols. I am not sure most ways are accessible, but they will know more on blindmath list. Dave At 11:43 PM 6/16/2012, you wrote: >Hi all, >After several years of graduate seminar courses that didn't have >textbooks, I am needing to take one more course this fall (a >statistics course) that does have an assigned textbook. The textbook >is not available in any of my usual databases (not surprising since >it's math) so I requested it from Bookshare, but would like to have a >backup option in case Bookshare isn't able to get it done by August. I >looked on the publisher's website and found that the book is available >for purchase as an E-book in "Epub" format. Apparently the book can be >read on a PC using "Adobe Digital Editions" or on a mobile device >using specific third-party apps such as "TXTR". The last time I tried >to do this, back in 2007, I couldn't find an accessible way to read a >mainstream E-book, but I know it's been five years and perhaps we've >made some progress in this area? Anyway, do any of you have experience >reading EPub files or used Adobe Digital Editions? Is Adobe Digital >Editions accessible or if not, is it possible to convert an EPub file >to text using a converter like RoboBraille? Also, has anyone >successfully used any of the mainstream iPhone apps for E-books? >Thanks for your help, >Arielle From jty727 at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 16:29:09 2012 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:29:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Placement tests In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bre, I took the Acuplacer a few years back. However I was exempt from the English portion for some reason. I however, was not from the Math portion which wasn't fun. I did this through Monroe Community College in Rochester, New York. The way it worked was that there was 2 portions which you were only allowed to do this second portion if you did well on the first. This was my case. Both sections were 35 questions, the first was easier than the second, but I don't recall the material on it and don't know if it is standard or differs from college to college. Hope this helps some what. Justin On 6/17/12, Rania Ismail CMT wrote: > Hi I took it back in 2007. I had someone read the questions from the reding > section on a computer and put my answers in. The next time I took it I took > it in Braille. I didn't pass it either time I took it. I am not sure what > to > say as far as my thaughts about the test go. > Rania, > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Bre Brown > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 5:03 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Placement tests > > Hi, > > Has anyone taken the ACU Placer for college students? If so, what > format did you take it in? What were your thoughts about the test? > > Bre > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 16:43:41 2012 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:43:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To Miss Taking Place Tonight Message-ID: <93BF236A77004616B7D3BDAB34EBC613@AudioAccessFM> Hi Everyone! Spread the word to your nfb divisions groups and friends! The Nabs Membership Committee presents for you tonight not one but two important conference calls; one dealing with airport travel and the second dealing with National Convention. The fun starts at 6:30PM eastern, and you can either call in at 712-775-7100 and entering in access code 257963 followed by the pound sign Or you can listen to the calls being carried live on Audio Access FM! Simply go to http://www.audioaccessfm.com/listen_live.php or our alternative link http://www.audioaccessfm.com/broadband.php to listen in. And if you miss tonight's calls due to Father's Day festivities, both calls will be available for download. So please join Nabs for what should be two very informative calls. Hope to see you on the stream or the calls! >From David Dunphy From liamskitten at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 21:47:42 2012 From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Courtney Stover) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:47:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To Miss Taking Place Tonight In-Reply-To: <93BF236A77004616B7D3BDAB34EBC613@AudioAccessFM> References: <93BF236A77004616B7D3BDAB34EBC613@AudioAccessFM> Message-ID: David, Will iether of these calls be recorded? I'm not able to make iether one, and the one about airports, especially, has quite a lot of relevance for me. Courtney From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 21:53:31 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:53:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To Miss Taking Place Tonight In-Reply-To: References: <93BF236A77004616B7D3BDAB34EBC613@AudioAccessFM> Message-ID: <000901cd4cd3$a3c6d620$eb548260$@gmail.com> Cortney, I won't chew your butt here, but you need to read the whole message. Especially the information in the part where it says something about missing the calls because of "father day festivities..." -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Courtney Stover Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To Miss Taking Place Tonight David, Will iether of these calls be recorded? I'm not able to make iether one, and the one about airports, especially, has quite a lot of relevance for me. Courtney _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 23:12:08 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 18:12:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To Miss Taking Place Tonight In-Reply-To: <000901cd4cd3$a3c6d620$eb548260$@gmail.com> References: <93BF236A77004616B7D3BDAB34EBC613@AudioAccessFM> <000901cd4cd3$a3c6d620$eb548260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't think yo're being fair to Courtney. I, also, cannot be on either call because of celebrations. Sadly, we can't b n 2 places at once. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 17, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Humberto Avila" wrote: > Cortney, I won't chew your butt here, but you need to read the whole > message. Especially the information in the part where it says something > about missing the calls because of "father day festivities..." > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Courtney Stover > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To Miss Taking > Place Tonight > > David, > > Will iether of these calls be recorded? I'm not able to make iether > one, and the one about airports, especially, has quite a lot of > relevance for me. > Courtney > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Jun 18 00:01:20 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 20:01:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To MissTaking Place Tonight In-Reply-To: References: <93BF236A77004616B7D3BDAB34EBC613@AudioAccessFM><000901cd4cd3$a3c6d620$eb548260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sophie, What is unfair about saying to read entire messages. We all have comitments to attend to and make decisions what to attend. I agree with Humberto. If you read them, you can answer your own question. I believe you are in high school. If you ask questions you can answer yourself in college, the professor will tell you to read the syllabus and saying you did not know when a test is or when x assignment is due will not fly in college. Now is a good time to start reading whole messages and documents. Yes he will archive the calls. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 7:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To MissTaking Place Tonight I don't think yo're being fair to Courtney. I, also, cannot be on either call because of celebrations. Sadly, we can't b n 2 places at once. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 17, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Humberto Avila" wrote: > Cortney, I won't chew your butt here, but you need to read the whole > message. Especially the information in the part where it says something > about missing the calls because of "father day festivities..." > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Courtney Stover > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To Miss Taking > Place Tonight > > David, > > Will iether of these calls be recorded? I'm not able to make iether > one, and the one about airports, especially, has quite a lot of > relevance for me. > Courtney > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 00:08:56 2012 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 20:08:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want ToMissTaking Place Tonight In-Reply-To: References: <93BF236A77004616B7D3BDAB34EBC613@AudioAccessFM><000901cd4cd3$a3c6d620$eb548260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just my thoughts: There is nothing wrong with encouraging a fellow student to develop a skill but words are powerful. Saying "Courtney, I won't chew your butt here" could be seen is belittling. We were all once high school students full of questions and just because we may be older or more educated doesn't lessen the importance and respect each member deserves. Anjelina -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want ToMissTaking Place Tonight Sophie, What is unfair about saying to read entire messages. We all have comitments to attend to and make decisions what to attend. I agree with Humberto. If you read them, you can answer your own question. I believe you are in high school. If you ask questions you can answer yourself in college, the professor will tell you to read the syllabus and saying you did not know when a test is or when x assignment is due will not fly in college. Now is a good time to start reading whole messages and documents. Yes he will archive the calls. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 7:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To MissTaking Place Tonight I don't think yo're being fair to Courtney. I, also, cannot be on either call because of celebrations. Sadly, we can't b n 2 places at once. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 17, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Humberto Avila" wrote: > Courtney, I won't chew your butt here, but you need to read the whole > message. Especially the information in the part where it says something > about missing the calls because of "father day festivities..." > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Courtney Stover > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To Miss Taking > Place Tonight > > David, > > Will iether of these calls be recorded? I'm not able to make iether > one, and the one about airports, especially, has quite a lot of > relevance for me. > Courtney > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com Anjelina From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 03:04:24 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 20:04:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want ToMissTaking Place Tonight In-Reply-To: References: <93BF236A77004616B7D3BDAB34EBC613@AudioAccessFM><000901cd4cd3$a3c6d620$eb548260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000e01cd4cff$13419910$39c4cb30$@gmail.com> Dear all, I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings. By saying that I wouldn't chew Cortney's butt meant that I wasn't going to reprimand her like if I were a parent or trusted adult identity that recognizes her strengths and weaknesses. Sorry if you took it the wrong way, and yes I believe that encouraging someone to develop a skill is great and engaging and can probably challenge one's self and his or her comfort zone. but no, I did want to be nice and respect her. Sorry about that -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Anjelina Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 5:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want ToMissTaking Place Tonight Just my thoughts: There is nothing wrong with encouraging a fellow student to develop a skill but words are powerful. Saying "Courtney, I won't chew your butt here" could be seen is belittling. We were all once high school students full of questions and just because we may be older or more educated doesn't lessen the importance and respect each member deserves. Anjelina -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want ToMissTaking Place Tonight Sophie, What is unfair about saying to read entire messages. We all have comitments to attend to and make decisions what to attend. I agree with Humberto. If you read them, you can answer your own question. I believe you are in high school. If you ask questions you can answer yourself in college, the professor will tell you to read the syllabus and saying you did not know when a test is or when x assignment is due will not fly in college. Now is a good time to start reading whole messages and documents. Yes he will archive the calls. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 7:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To MissTaking Place Tonight I don't think yo're being fair to Courtney. I, also, cannot be on either call because of celebrations. Sadly, we can't b n 2 places at once. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 17, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Humberto Avila" wrote: > Courtney, I won't chew your butt here, but you need to read the whole > message. Especially the information in the part where it says something > about missing the calls because of "father day festivities..." > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Courtney Stover > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To Miss Taking > Place Tonight > > David, > > Will iether of these calls be recorded? I'm not able to make iether > one, and the one about airports, especially, has quite a lot of > relevance for me. > Courtney > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com Anjelina _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 07:40:57 2012 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 03:40:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't WantToMissTaking Place Tonight In-Reply-To: <000e01cd4cff$13419910$39c4cb30$@gmail.com> References: <93BF236A77004616B7D3BDAB34EBC613@AudioAccessFM><000901cd4cd3$a3c6d620$eb548260$@gmail.com> <000e01cd4cff$13419910$39c4cb30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BCFE9C3D8444590A2832FD1AA4D173A@AnjelinaPC> Humberto, I'm sorry that I jumped to conclusions and misinterpreted your message. Thank you for being so considerate. -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 11:04 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't WantToMissTaking Place Tonight Dear all, I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings. By saying that I wouldn't chew Cortney's butt meant that I wasn't going to reprimand her like if I were a parent or trusted adult identity that recognizes her strengths and weaknesses. Sorry if you took it the wrong way, and yes I believe that encouraging someone to develop a skill is great and engaging and can probably challenge one's self and his or her comfort zone. but no, I did want to be nice and respect her. Sorry about that -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Anjelina Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 5:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want ToMissTaking Place Tonight Just my thoughts: There is nothing wrong with encouraging a fellow student to develop a skill but words are powerful. Saying "Courtney, I won't chew your butt here" could be seen is belittling. We were all once high school students full of questions and just because we may be older or more educated doesn't lessen the importance and respect each member deserves. Anjelina -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want ToMissTaking Place Tonight Sophie, What is unfair about saying to read entire messages. We all have comitments to attend to and make decisions what to attend. I agree with Humberto. If you read them, you can answer your own question. I believe you are in high school. If you ask questions you can answer yourself in college, the professor will tell you to read the syllabus and saying you did not know when a test is or when x assignment is due will not fly in college. Now is a good time to start reading whole messages and documents. Yes he will archive the calls. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 7:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To MissTaking Place Tonight I don't think yo're being fair to Courtney. I, also, cannot be on either call because of celebrations. Sadly, we can't b n 2 places at once. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 17, 2012, at 4:53 PM, "Humberto Avila" wrote: > Courtney, I won't chew your butt here, but you need to read the whole > message. Especially the information in the part where it says something > about missing the calls because of "father day festivities..." > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Courtney Stover > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 2:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Two Membership Calls You Won't Want To Miss Taking > Place Tonight > > David, > > Will iether of these calls be recorded? I'm not able to make iether > one, and the one about airports, especially, has quite a lot of > relevance for me. > Courtney > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com Anjelina _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com Anjelina From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 13:57:30 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:57:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009501cd4d5a$5ebef260$1c3cd720$@gmail.com> Hi Joshua, >From what I saw in their announcement, it shouldn't change accessibility at all. If it does, I think both NFB and NABS will have something to say about it, as we did when Learning Ally had their accessibility problems. By the way, I forwarded this same announcement from Bookshare to this list before I saw that Joshua had also forwarded it, so you will probably be getting it twice. Sorry about this. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 4:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage I received this E-mail, but my question is, how will this affect accessibility? Thanks, Joshua ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bookshare Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:46:48 +0000 Subject: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage To: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Dearr Members, Next week, we are rolling out some changes to the Bookshare homepage! While much of the page like login and search will stay the same, these updates will help new members to get started with Bookshare and help existing members to use and manage their accounts. What's new? First, you will notice an updated main content section and sidebar. The main content section will have described images and a large sign up button for first-timers. The sidebar will contain a new book counter, the existing and popular "Browse Book Lists", and a Bookshare news section. Secondly, we are beginning to personalize the homepage. After you log in, you'll see a welcome page that will include a simple search box to help you find books. For new members, there will also be a link to our "Getting Started" page. In the near future, we'll be adding more features and personalized news and information to this section, so stay tuned! Do you want to help make Bookshare better? Join our testing program and test drive new and upcoming features. Sign up today! - http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/1b3e19e5a8 The Bookshare team Are you participating in the Bookshare Summer Reading Event? Learn more! - http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/39b4f5e600/utm_conten t=jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Em ail&utm_term=Text%20Version%20-%20Link%202&utm_campaign=Changes%20coming%20t o%20Bookshare%20homepage ______________________________________________________________________ Click to view this email in a browser http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/266797/db27e969ec/1400066533/69d6259c0a/ If you no longer wish to receive these emails, please reply to this message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on the following link: http://cts.vresp.com/u?db27e969ec/69d6259c0a/mlpftw ______________________________________________________________________ Benetech sent this email free of charge using VerticalResponse for Non-Profits. Non-Profits email free. You email affordably. Benetech 480 California Ave., Suite 201 Palo Alto, California 94306 US Read the VerticalResponse marketing policy: http://www.verticalresponse.com/content/pm_policy.html _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 13:57:30 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:57:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office In-Reply-To: <002c01cd4a94$70f0d8e0$52d28aa0$@gmail.com> References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> <002c01cd4a94$70f0d8e0$52d28aa0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009101cd4d5a$5d13b360$173b1a20$@gmail.com> Hi Humberto, Well, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. When I press alt in a program that has the ribbons, JAWS will say "virtual ribbons." I don't know if this means anything as to whether virtual ribbons on JAWS are turned on or not. Sorry for my ignorance! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Avila Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:16 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Chris, do you have the virtual ribbon menus turned on on JAWS? This makes things so easier! PS in case you don't have them turned on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 13:57:30 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:57:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009601cd4d5a$5fa0c6e0$1ee254a0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum (school) [mailto:dots4school at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 5:12 PM To: dotkid.nusbaum Subject: Fwd: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bookshare Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:53:54 +0000 Subject: Changes coming to Bookshare homepage To: dots4school at gmail.com Dearr Members, Next week, we are rolling out some changes to the Bookshare homepage! While much of the page like login and search will stay the same, these updates will help new members to get started with Bookshare and help existing members to use and manage their accounts. What's new? First, you will notice an updated main content section and sidebar. The main content section will have described images and a large sign up button for first-timers. The sidebar will contain a new book counter, the existing and popular "Browse Book Lists", and a Bookshare news section. Secondly, we are beginning to personalize the homepage. After you log in, you'll see a welcome page that will include a simple search box to help you find books. For new members, there will also be a link to our "Getting Started" page. In the near future, we'll be adding more features and personalized news and information to this section, so stay tuned! Do you want to help make Bookshare better? Join our testing program and test drive new and upcoming features. Sign up today! - http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/835bdb30aa/1b3e19e5a8 The Bookshare team Are you participating in the Bookshare Summer Reading Event? Learn more! - http://cts.vresp.com/c/?Benetech/db27e969ec/835bdb30aa/39b4f5e600/utm_conten t=dots4school%40gmail.com&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_t erm=Text%20Version%20-%20Link%202&utm_campaign=Changes%20coming%20to%20Books hare%20homepage ______________________________________________________________________ Click to view this email in a browser http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/266797/db27e969ec/1400066533/835bdb30aa/ If you no longer wish to receive these emails, please reply to this message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on the following link: http://cts.vresp.com/u?db27e969ec/835bdb30aa/mlpftw ______________________________________________________________________ Benetech sent this email free of charge using VerticalResponse for Non-Profits. Non-Profits email free. You email affordably. Benetech 480 California Ave., Suite 201 Palo Alto, California 94306 US Read the VerticalResponse marketing policy: http://www.verticalresponse.com/content/pm_policy.html From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 13:57:30 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:57:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] need some help please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008701cd4d5a$5c0b9230$1422b690$@gmail.com> Hi Becky, What version of Windows are you running? I've never had that problem using Outlook 2010 and Windows 7. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of rebecca sabo Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:46 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] need some help please Hello My name is Becky Sabo. I have been using microsoft 2003 on my lapto and I use outlook for my email but some reason lately when I read the messages I can only read three or four messages than the program freezes. I have un install it and also re install it and the issue is still there. I was wondering if I need to upgrade if so what version would I need to get to still use outlook for my email' I need this taken care of this asap any help would be great. Thanks again. Becky Sabo On 6/11/12, Greg Aikens wrote: > Hi Beth, > Everyone likes to do things different ways, but this is the way I > generally handle things when I'm traveling through an airport alone. > If I am taking a cab to the airport, I will have them take me to the > curb side check-in for my airline if it is available. That way I can > ditch my checked bags as early as possible, because I feel like they > make navigating independently a little more difficult. If you do > curb side check-in, it is generally expected that you tip the person > handling your bags. You can choose to follow this convention or not. I have done both. > If they don't have curb side check-in, I have my cab driver find the > part of the drop off area with the sign for my airline so as to have > the shortest path to travel once I get inside. Once inside I will > listen for the counters, lines of people, etc. and head towards one. > If it is the wrong one, they generally redirect me to the correct > counter. There are often airline employees helping passengers in line > to answer questions etc. so keep an ear out. > > Once I have checked in, either curb side or at the counter inside, I > ask for assistance to my gate. I know some people prefer to do this > independently, but I find it far less stressful and far quicker to get > assistance with this step. Sometimes you have to wait a few minutes > for them to get someone up there to assist you, but I make sure I am > waiting in an area where there is an employee I can ask to make sure I > have not been forgotten. These people have generally been helpful to > me and have understood when I refused a wheelchair. Occasionally > you'll get someone who just doesn't get it, but if you are kind but firm, they generally get the idea. > > When you get to security there is generally a line designated for > passengers with disabilities. Sometimes it moves faster and sometimes > slower than the main lines, so choose wisely. If you have asked for > assistance, you can ask the person with you to help judge the lines. > At security, you have to put everything you have into a bin, including > your shoes. I usually put my cane through the scanner with all my > other stuff, but I think I have heard of people who keep it with them > when they pass through the metal detector. I find it simpler to put > the cane through and trail the side of the machine up to the metal > detector gate. At that point I ask the security person to reach their > hand through so I can touch hands with them to walk straight through > the metal detector without touching the sides. All in all, I am separated from my cane for 60 or 90 seconds at most. > > The person assisting me helps me find my gate, where I make contact > with the people at the desk and then take a seat, as near as I can to > the desk. I usually pre board just because it seems easier. Again, > you can choose to do this or not. > > The biggest thing to remember is that the people assisting you are > there to help you, not to tell you what to do. If you are ever > uncomfortable, you should definitely say something. You are the one > in control, and sometimes airport staff need to be reminded of that. > Remember that you are allowed to keep your cane with you at all times, > with the possible exception of passing through the metal detector. > > I wrote you a novel, but I hope at least some of this stuff is helpful. > Just remember that this is one guy's opinion. Have fun in GA. > > -Greg > On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, Beth wrote: > >> Hi, guys. What are you nabs-sters doing for vacations? I'm actually >> flying to Georgia to visit my boyfriend, and I would like some >> practical no-nonsense tips on how to go through security and airport stuff period. >> How should I deal with people who try to offer me a wheelchair to get >> into the plane? Whaut's the best way to deal with people who might >> ask me to sit on the floor even? This is only the second time I've >> planned a trip without a group of blind people or family around. I >> would like to get some good tips on whuat to do at the airport, and >> how much it usually would cost for you Denver people to go from east Denver, my house, to DIA. >> Thanks, guys. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail. >> com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail > .com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 13:57:30 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:57:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office In-Reply-To: References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009801cd4d5a$6170cbf0$245263d0$@gmail.com> Hi Ashley, All good points. There are obvious accessibility problems which Microsoft hasn't addressed. By the way, they will be at national convention talking about accessibility in Windows 8, so it will be interesting to see what they say. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office Chris, You are right that outlook is accessible and in fact a few features now work that did not in the past. I also agree its easier to navigate than gmail. My school uses gmail so I use it in basic html mode. It has frames and is just a difficult layout. At least outlook is a list; you have a list of messages and a list of your folders like inbox, sent items, and deleted items. Anyway, the description of the ribbon is right. Up top is the tabs and on the bottom is the categories. I know jaws has a virtual ribbon, but that totally misses my point. Personally I find the jaws virtual menus worse than the office ribbon since I don't see the split buttons which is like a submenu with the ribbonns. I use the standard ribbons and in fact forget how to turn on virtual ribbons. But I'm talking about microsoft accessibility, not jaws. Not everyone uses jaws. In fact I bet with free screen readers and more readers now on the market, I bet you less and less use jaws. So IMO, microsoft needs to make their products more accessible. You have to tab and tab on the lower ribbon to get to everything. Another example, for those who used powerpoint, you cannot tab on the lower ribbon to the sound transitions. Try it. Go to the transitions tab and try to find the sound effects. Unless you go backwards, meaning starting at the end, and shift tabbing back, you will not hear sound effects group. I never knew it was there until someone told me where, because jaws skipped over it. I navigated that tab many times and never saw it. Also, in Word, sometimes it skips things on the lower ribbon too. I realize many like ribbons, but I've spoken to lots of people, I mean sighted people too, who find it a pain. They, too, would rather scroll and skim through a menu. Another challenge I find is galleries. In a gallery, you right arrow over to your options but then it puts you back at your first option. Its hard to explain, but I see this a lot in powerpoint. And finally, Access 2003 was accessible and in later versions it is not. Another thing is that in 2010 version, Word still puts extra spacing between your lines. How is a totally blind person going to know this? I don't think they will. You have to change the spacing after to 0 points and the default is 10 points. Jaws says single spaced even though to a sighted person, and I noticed as I looked close, that there was extra space between lines. At least one good thing is you can create your own tab, thereby customizing it to your liking and can get to frequently used stuff by putting it there. I want to find out how to create a tab and use it. Chris, I'm glad you like office 2010, but I think you will find that as you need more applications and navigate other applications, you will find glitches. Also, I hear windows 8 is more visual and NFB isn't doing anything about it. For instance you won't have a shut down button on the start menu. It looks more like a tablet I heard. A trainer that I worked with who saw the beta version told me this. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:43 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Jun 18 15:40:35 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:40:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and Microsoft Office In-Reply-To: <009101cd4d5a$5d13b360$173b1a20$@gmail.com> References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com><002c01cd4a94$70f0d8e0$52d28aa0$@gmail.com> <009101cd4d5a$5d13b360$173b1a20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris, If you cannot tab through the ribbon bar, you turned on virtual ribbons. They are in a menu then. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:57 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and Microsoft Office Hi Humberto, Well, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. When I press alt in a program that has the ribbons, JAWS will say "virtual ribbons." I don't know if this means anything as to whether virtual ribbons on JAWS are turned on or not. Sorry for my ignorance! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Avila Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:16 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Chris, do you have the virtual ribbon menus turned on on JAWS? This makes things so easier! PS in case you don't have them turned on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu Mon Jun 18 17:11:55 2012 From: PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu (Justin Salisbury) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 17:11:55 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Conference Call Message-ID: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7DF27D@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> The North Carolina Association of Blind Students has arranged a conference call with Anil Lewis, Director of Strategic Communications for the National Federation of the Blind, on Monday, June 18, at 9:30 pm, on our conference line. We have decided to open this call to anyone else who wants to join us. This is a prime opportunity for us all to learn more about the boycott and HR 3086, the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. Here is the dial-in information: Number to dial is 712-432-3900 Access Code is 3866158 I will ask that, after we introduce ourselves, we mute ourselves on the line to avoid background noise. This can be toggled mute-unmute by pressing star-6 or using your own phone's features if you can. If you have questions about the boycott or the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act that you want answered on the call, please send them to me at president at alumni.ecu.edu by 8:00 pm. You can still ask questions on the spot after the list of questions I receive are answered. See you there! Justin Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD _______________________________________________ Ncabs mailing list Ncabs at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/ncabs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Ncabs: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/ncabs_nfbnet.org/president%40alumni.ecu.edu From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 17:18:05 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:18:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] Yakima girl wins national award for reading 21, 646 pages in Braille In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501cd4d76$5381d630$fa858290$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:55 AM To: nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org Subject: [nfbwatlk] Yakima girl wins national award for reading 21, 646 pages in Braille http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2018461694_braillereader18m. html Originally published Sunday, June 17, 2012 at 8:16 PM Yakima girl wins national award for reading 21,646 pages in Braille Yakima fourth-grader Maegan Weiler read 21,646 pages of Braille to win the National Federation of the Blind's Braille Readers are Leaders Contest. By Pat Muir Yakima Herald-Republic YAKIMA - They ran out of ribbons way before Maegan Weiler stopped reading. Maegan, who just finished the fourth grade at Ahtanum Valley Elementary School, read 21,646 pages of Braille to win the National Federation of the Blind's Braille Readers are Leaders Contest. The 10-year-old, who started losing her sight before her first birthday and has been totally blind for about three years, favors Nancy Drew and "Black Stallion" books. She read so many of them that the contest, which rewards milestones with ribbons, couldn't keep up with her. Its top ribbon was for 12,000 pages. "She was saying when she got it that they need a 20,000-page ribbon," said Mike Magruder, the Braille paraprofessional at Ahtanum Valley, who prepares reading material for Maegan using a Braille translation machine. Maegan technically won in the contest's fourth- and fifth-grade age group, but nobody in any group even came close. The only other contestant who read more than 18,000 Braille pages in a single school year was a Texan in the ninth- through 12th-grade division. It's an accomplishment Maegan's particularly proud of because she worked so hard to learn Braille during the past two years. "I didn't want to learn Braille in kindergarten," she said. "It took forever for me to get up to this." She knew the Braille alphabet and not much more in the second grade, when Magruder started working with her. Now she's reading above grade level. "Mr. Magruder doesn't let her slack," Maegan's mother, Shelly Weiler, said. "We expect a lot of Maegan." Though Maegan admitted to sometimes getting frustrated or even mad at Magruder, she enjoyed working with him on the contest and she's proud of how far she's come. Her proudest moment? "When I learned how many pages I read," she said. Well, that and beating her best friend, Abby Rhodes, in a different reading contest. Maegan scored 425 points in Ahtanum Valley's accelerated reading program. Abby, who is not blind, finished with 420 points. "They were in competition all year," Magruder said. But they're still best friends, Maegan said. They run together, play on the monkey bars and the rock wall and dig in dirt piles. "There's also a creek, and we find rocks and throw rocks in there," she said. Just normal kid stuff, really, because despite her blindness, Maegan is just a normal kid - albeit a bright one who loves to read. She wants to be a lawyer and eventually a judge. "So I can be nosy," she said. That's why Maegan likes Nancy Drew books, too. "It's kind of like a puzzle that you don't have to put together with puzzle pieces," she said during an interview on the last morning of school last week. Then the bell rang, Maegan yelled "recess!" and ran out to join her friends. _______________________________________________ nfbwatlk mailing list nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbwatlk: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%4 0gmail.com From clb5590 at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 20:29:34 2012 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cynthia Bennett) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:29:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott Conference Call In-Reply-To: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7DF27D@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7DF27D@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Justin, I think this is a great opportunity though. Just a quick note: these times are eastern. For anyone who might not live on the east coast, adjust the times accordingly. Cindy On 6/18/12, Justin Salisbury wrote: > The North Carolina Association of Blind Students has arranged a conference > call with Anil Lewis, Director of Strategic Communications for the National > Federation of the Blind, on Monday, June 18, at 9:30 pm, on our conference > line. > > We have decided to open this call to anyone else who wants to join us. > > This is a prime opportunity for us all to learn more about the boycott and > HR 3086, the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. > > Here is the dial-in information: > > Number to dial is 712-432-3900 > Access Code is 3866158 > > I will ask that, after we introduce ourselves, we mute ourselves on the line > to avoid background noise. This can be toggled mute-unmute by pressing > star-6 or using your own phone's features if you can. > > If you have questions about the boycott or the Fair Wages for Workers with > Disabilities Act that you want answered on the call, please send them to me > at president at alumni.ecu.edu by 8:00 pm. You can still ask questions on the > spot after the list of questions I receive are answered. > > See you there! > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change > the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD > > _______________________________________________ > Ncabs mailing list > Ncabs at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/ncabs_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > Ncabs: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/ncabs_nfbnet.org/president%40alumni.ecu.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cynthia Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From zach2012 at chickerland.com Mon Jun 18 22:53:00 2012 From: zach2012 at chickerland.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:53:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: [Blindtlk] beware the inaccessible soda machines! Message-ID: <9D25F04E68224B2A9BB2156CD720FE47@ZachlaptopPC> Zach Griego-Dreicer Email: zach2012 at chickerland.com Skype and Twitter: Chickerland Facebook profile: http://www.facebook.com/chickerland or find me using this email address. -----Original Message----- From: Aleeha Dudley Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 7:26 PM To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org Subject: [Blindtlk] beware the inaccessible soda machines! Hello All, This evening, I was in a Burger King and saw something that I have never seen before. The traditional soda machine with separate buttons for each soda as well as the ice was replaced with a system that had one spout for all drinks and a touchscreen interface. The machine was completely inaccessible and I had to have sighted assistance to get my drink rather than simply asking which button corresponded to the soda that I wanted. I was upset to see this as I believe it is a considerable step back in mainstream accessibility. I was wondering if anyone else has encountered these machines and if so, are there any sort of accessible options? Thanks, Aleeha _______________________________________________ blindtlk mailing list blindtlk at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/zach2012%40chickerland.com From dandrews at visi.com Tue Jun 19 00:32:55 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:32:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Volunteers Needed at Convention Message-ID: > >David, > >Could you please post the following on the list serve? > >We are seeking good typists to facilitate access for a deaf-blind >law student who will be attending the national convention. Prior >experience with real-time transcription services or deaf-blind >communication is not necessary. Typists would use a standard QWERTY >keyboard that would be wirelessly connected to a BrailleNote. Some >multi-tasking is required for typists because they would need to be >able to listen to a speaker and type at the same time. > >We are looking for several good typists to provide transcription >support throughout the convention. If you are willing to help, >please contact Beth Braun at bbraun at nfb.org >or by calling 410-659-9314 ex. 2369. > >Thank you for your consideration. > > > >Thanks, Beth > > >Beth Braun >Assistant to the Executive Director, Jernigan Institute >NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND >200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place >Baltimore, Maryland 21230 >Phone: (410) 659-9314 ext. 2369 >Fax: (410) 659-5129 >Email: bbraun at nfb.org >Web: www.nfb.org > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 01:04:02 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:04:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: NFB-NEWSLINE Notice In-Reply-To: <1110269297015.1102661541922.7123.9.2717151A@scheduler.constantcontact.com> References: <1110269297015.1102661541922.7123.9.2717151A@scheduler.constantcontact.com> Message-ID: <002f01cd4db7$6bd04e60$4370eb20$@gmail.com> Hi everyone, Please see the below message for some very exciting news from NFB Newsline! I really look forward to reading this magazine on Newsline, and will probably add it to my favorites list next time I call in! For those of you using Microsoft Outlook to read this, your screen reader will probably read this a little strangely, for some reason which I have yet to figure out. If you are using JAWS, pressing insert down-arrow to tell JAWS to read the entire message should do the trick. Pressing that command's equivalent in other screen readers should have the same effect, although I don't know how other screen readers will interpret these kinds of messages. Thanks, Chris Nusbaum From: NFB-NEWSLINE [mailto:bwatson at nfb.org] Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 5:18 PM To: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Subject: NFB-NEWSLINE Notice Having trouble viewing this email? Click here Description: Image removed by sender. NFB-NEWSLINE NFB-NEWSLINE Month Day, Year Dear CHRISTOPHER, Please read the following press release about our newest content addition. FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org Susan Olivo Executive Director Reader's Digest Partners for Sight Foundation 44 South Broadway - 17th Floor White Plains, NY 10601 (914) 244-5349 susan at partnersforsight.org NFB-NEWSLINER Adds Reader's Digest Popular Publication Now on Free Service for Blind and Print-Disabled People Baltimore, Maryland (June 18, 2012): The National Federation of the Blind is pleased to announce that NFB-NEWSLINE R-its free service that provides independent access by print-disabled people to hundreds of local and national publications, as well as TV and job listings-has partnered with The Reader's Digest Association, Inc. to offer its very popular monthly magazine to subscribers. The addition of Reader's Digest will expand the already wide variety of content offered by the service, including magazines that focus on science, technology, and culture. Offering more than 300 newspapers, magazines, and wire feeds, NFB-NEWSLINER provides subscribers with on-demand access and the ability to read only those sections and articles of interest to the user from the publications available. Subscribers may read their favorite publications via a variety of methods, including using a touch-tone telephone, accessing content on the Web , via an iPhone or other iOS device , or by downloading publications to a digital talking book player or MP3 player. Dr. Marc Maurer , President of the National Federation of the Blind , said: "The addition of Reader's Digest-which is not only one of the most popular consumer magazines in the United States but also enjoys worldwide success-gives NFB-NEWSLINER subscribers yet another choice in content, featuring a mix of compelling human interest stories, family-based articles, and humor. The National Federation of the Blind is pleased that NFB-NEWSLINER continues to expand the diversity of its offerings to meet the variety of subscribers' interests and needs." "This is great news for our subscribers," said Scott White, who directs the NFB-NEWSLINER program. "Reader's Digest has been one of our most requested magazines and we are pleased to be able to offer it on the service." Liz Vaccariello, V.P. and editor-in-chief of Reader's Digest, said: "We are very happy to partner with the National Federation of the Blind in offering our magazine content. Its commitment to providing equal access to printed material is unparalleled." NFB-NEWSLINER allows those who cannot read conventional newsprint due to a visual or physical disability to access publications as well as television and job listings over the telephone, on the Web, via an iOS device, or by download to digital talking book players or MP3-playing devices. To learn more about NFB-NEWSLINER, please visit www.nfbnewsline.org . Those interested in subscribing to the service may fill out the online application form, write to nfbnewsline at nfb.org, or call (866) 504-7300. In order to be eligible for NFB-NEWSLINER, an individual must be a US resident who is legally blind or has a physical or learning disability that prevents the independent reading of newspapers. ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. About The Reader's Digest Association, Inc. The Reader's Digest Association is a global media and direct marketing company that educates, entertains and connects more than 140 million consumers around the world with products and services from trusted brands. With offices in 44 countries, the company reaches customers in 78 countries, publishes 75 magazines, including 49 editions of Reader's Digest, the world's largest-circulation magazine, operates 62 branded websites and sells 30 million books, music and video products across the world each year. Further information about the company can be found at www.rda.com. Sincerely, Bob Watson NFB-NEWSLINE Forward this email Description: Image removed by sender. Description: Image removed by sender. This email was sent to dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com by bwatson at nfb.org | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe T | Privacy Policy . NFB-NEWSLINE | 200 East Wells Street | Baltimore | MD | 21230 Description: Image removed by sender. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 332 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dandrews at visi.com Tue Jun 19 01:31:28 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 20:31:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] [Blindtlk] FW: NFB-NEWSLINE Notice In-Reply-To: <002f01cd4db7$6bd04e60$4370eb20$@gmail.com> References: <1110269297015.1102661541922.7123.9.2717151A@scheduler.constantcontact.com> <002f01cd4db7$6bd04e60$4370eb20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >Chris, and everybody else -- any message sent by either >nfbnet-members-list or nfbnet-master-list does not need to be >forwarded to other lists -- in fact it should not be forwarded, as >everybody has already received a copy via the members or master list. Thank you. David Andrews, List Owner >Hi everyone, > > > >Please see the below message for some very exciting news from NFB Newsline! >I really look forward to reading this magazine on Newsline, and will >probably add it to my favorites list next time I call in! For those of you >using Microsoft Outlook to read this, your screen reader will probably read >this a little strangely, for some reason which I have yet to figure out. If >you are using JAWS, pressing insert down-arrow to tell JAWS to read the >entire message should do the trick. Pressing that command's equivalent in >other screen readers should have the same effect, although I don't know how >other screen readers will interpret these kinds of messages. > > > >Thanks, > > > >Chris Nusbaum > > > >From: NFB-NEWSLINE [mailto:bwatson at nfb.org] >Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 5:18 PM >To: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com >Subject: NFB-NEWSLINE Notice > > > > >Having trouble viewing this email? Click here >ZiYEwkBSKqHA3QkfS556lfazLq4ACiY_0IZLfmyV5Ljx00CDtUdQtlTAk2i0IEd8Vdbg0fJfEUgu >lC3SmOjT07NRG77_jy3ufKKypJgmc7bMLAkLL6D_fCmc4R46ijC9P_QTyHyRr6WIaSi6rjbMxihZ >PILQgoLw-hizN5Phucmz313T5-8-KGrl13NooEMyiCovV1bp-_xL7FNanZjMwSDPIW9r5zOh86Ch >9Ojp2kKAQ%3D%3D> > > > > > > >Description: Image removed by sender. NFB-NEWSLINE > > > > >NFB-NEWSLINE > > > > >Month Day, Year > > > >Dear CHRISTOPHER, > >Please read the following press release about our newest content addition. > > > > > > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > >CONTACT: > >Chris Danielsen > >Director of Public Relations > >National Federation of the Blind > >(410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > >(410) 262-1281 (Cell) > >cdanielsen at nfb.org > > > >Susan Olivo >Executive Director >Reader's Digest Partners for Sight Foundation > >44 South Broadway - 17th Floor >White Plains, NY 10601 >(914) 244-5349 >susan at partnersforsight.org > > > > > >NFB-NEWSLINER Adds Reader's Digest > > > >Popular Publication Now on Free Service for Blind and Print-Disabled People > > > >Baltimore, Maryland (June 18, 2012): The National Federation of the Blind >hVTVjRn5vyD_8TwWOsEEDzJlo820hPBnm8CxYk1qyBgBzXIR7o7L12Hdldd5Qm4=> is >pleased to announce that NFB-NEWSLINE >NsOBTC60hBcnoiPjHdW7EAXmpvC02O4xjfxYWQwVbbz-ozZ-ED7vVTqbHvPCoP-S8-NozNiMqNCx >jxCFByClc5yx9t3nGb8=> R-its free service that provides independent access by >print-disabled people to hundreds of local and national publications, as >well as TV and job listings-has partnered with The Reader's Digest >Association, Inc. to offer its very popular monthly magazine to subscribers. > > > > >The addition of Reader's Digest >DQivtqimIeB2tGiVsnWF8DDOMi5jnOBLuNs2Kh3kOH9qlaeiK9c45vFk49WznkM=> will >expand the already wide variety of content offered by the service, including >magazines that focus on science, technology, and culture. Offering more than >300 newspapers, magazines, and wire feeds, NFB-NEWSLINER provides >subscribers with on-demand access and the ability to read only those >sections and articles of interest to the user from the publications >available. Subscribers may read their favorite publications via a variety >of methods, including using a touch-tone telephone, accessing content on the >Web >alq0AEIOqxl58O12i4i6-RaxIJpVWFLFg_v_8rHtfjnmE4lYMBoONJ_GAduNZEsYmYxVNPM6zw==> >, via an iPhone or other iOS device >p6Slsz9NvLDGuUtCmwN3J6nlKUEo_7RKx9DuI-gmULMSf7t5kCIjOKF484jI19B5o7HtnufYiWzd >ZTjvuwo5BbMrNx8dYahJK944dckC2H2QdJX6clVtHB6_FnIErKxhXbXBRGwmp6N5pqSeU_0a> , >or by downloading publications to a digital talking book player or MP3 >player. > > > >Dr. Marc Maurer >0nt-OKaVQIbfmBJnqm3YRRaA8a8k7iWDlsoycYzX6Uf8qCzrl9WleX2P4Ywy0lw8HN0KFwom_wIe >hSlQuD9k> , President of the National Federation of the Blind >JYDG_4FnSUOXbfCueE-gXP6s0NY542Mq6bAy_Cp9_YBu1OaVftx_W3NsiMB8oU-NpYdhbE4tpwWQ >EaY5-bdWazKPmMz87vOGh7lDog8GQA==> , said: "The addition of Reader's >Digest-which is not only one of the most popular consumer magazines in the >United States but also enjoys worldwide success-gives NFB-NEWSLINER >subscribers yet another choice in content, featuring a mix of compelling >human interest stories, family-based articles, and humor. The National >Federation of the Blind is pleased that NFB-NEWSLINER continues to expand >the diversity of its offerings to meet the variety of subscribers' interests >and needs." > > > >"This is great news for our subscribers," said Scott White, who directs the >NFB-NEWSLINER program. "Reader's Digest has been one of our most requested >magazines and we are pleased to be able to offer it on the service." > > > >Liz Vaccariello, V.P. and editor-in-chief of Reader's Digest, said: "We are >very happy to partner with the National Federation of the Blind in offering >our magazine content. Its commitment to providing equal access to printed >material is unparalleled." > > > >NFB-NEWSLINER allows those who cannot read conventional newsprint due to a >visual or physical disability to access publications as well as television >and job listings over the telephone, on the Web, via an iOS device, or by >download to digital talking book players or MP3-playing devices. > > > >To learn more about NFB-NEWSLINER, please visit www.nfbnewsline.org >alq0AEIOqxl58O12i4i6-RaxIJpVWFLFg_v_8rHtfjnmE4lYMBoONJ_GAduNZEsYmYxVNPM6zw==> >. Those interested in subscribing to the service may fill out the online >application form, write to nfbnewsline at nfb.org, or call (866) 504-7300. In >order to be eligible for NFB-NEWSLINER, an individual must be a US resident >who is legally blind or has a physical or learning disability that prevents >the independent reading of newspapers. > > > >### > > > > > >About the National Federation of the Blind > > > >With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the >largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the >United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, >education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and >self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and >the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National >Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training >center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. > > > >About The Reader's Digest Association, Inc. > > >The Reader's Digest Association is a global media and direct marketing >company that educates, entertains and connects more than 140 million >consumers around the world with products and services from trusted brands. >With offices in 44 countries, the company reaches customers in 78 countries, >publishes 75 magazines, including 49 editions of Reader's Digest, the >world's largest-circulation magazine, operates 62 branded websites and sells >30 million books, music and video products across the world each year. >Further information about the company can be found at www.rda.com. > > > > > > > > > >Sincerely, > > > > > > > > >Bob Watson > >NFB-NEWSLINE > > > > > > > > > > >Forward this email >dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com&a=1110269297015> > > > > >f_fRSqu&t=001-XG-CCjuWARifOwbogyeaQ%3D%3D&llr=cby486cab> Description: Image >removed by sender. > > Description: >Image removed by sender. > >This email was sent to dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com by bwatson at nfb.org | > >Update Profile/Email Address >f_fRSqu&t=001-XG-CCjuWARifOwbogyeaQ%3D%3D&llr=cby486cab> | Instant removal >with SafeUnsubscribe >f_fRSqu&t=001-XG-CCjuWARifOwbogyeaQ%3D%3D&llr=cby486cab> T | Privacy Policy > . > >NFB-NEWSLINE | 200 East Wells Street | Baltimore | MD | 21230 > >Description: Image removed by sender. From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 02:08:49 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:08:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] Yakima girl wins national award for reading21, 646 pages in Braille In-Reply-To: <002501cd4d76$5381d630$fa858290$@gmail.com> References: <002501cd4d76$5381d630$fa858290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <74E186BF776E4F9BB7249ACEB330D45A@BrandonsLaptop2> Oh my word... 21 thousand pages... That is... WOW! The most I've ever read in the year is probably 1000 Braille pages. That's just amazing, she needs to like be given a fullride to the NFB convention and made a superstar! :) Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 10:18 AM To: nabs-l at nfbNet.org ; blindTlk at nfbNet.org ; nfb-talk at nfbNet.org Cc: deniserob at gmail.com Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfbwatlk] Yakima girl wins national award for reading21, 646 pages in Braille -----Original Message----- From: nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbwatlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nightingale, Noel Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:55 AM To: nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org Subject: [nfbwatlk] Yakima girl wins national award for reading 21, 646 pages in Braille http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2018461694_braillereader18m. html Originally published Sunday, June 17, 2012 at 8:16 PM Yakima girl wins national award for reading 21,646 pages in Braille Yakima fourth-grader Maegan Weiler read 21,646 pages of Braille to win the National Federation of the Blind's Braille Readers are Leaders Contest. By Pat Muir Yakima Herald-Republic YAKIMA - They ran out of ribbons way before Maegan Weiler stopped reading. Maegan, who just finished the fourth grade at Ahtanum Valley Elementary School, read 21,646 pages of Braille to win the National Federation of the Blind's Braille Readers are Leaders Contest. The 10-year-old, who started losing her sight before her first birthday and has been totally blind for about three years, favors Nancy Drew and "Black Stallion" books. She read so many of them that the contest, which rewards milestones with ribbons, couldn't keep up with her. Its top ribbon was for 12,000 pages. "She was saying when she got it that they need a 20,000-page ribbon," said Mike Magruder, the Braille paraprofessional at Ahtanum Valley, who prepares reading material for Maegan using a Braille translation machine. Maegan technically won in the contest's fourth- and fifth-grade age group, but nobody in any group even came close. The only other contestant who read more than 18,000 Braille pages in a single school year was a Texan in the ninth- through 12th-grade division. It's an accomplishment Maegan's particularly proud of because she worked so hard to learn Braille during the past two years. "I didn't want to learn Braille in kindergarten," she said. "It took forever for me to get up to this." She knew the Braille alphabet and not much more in the second grade, when Magruder started working with her. Now she's reading above grade level. "Mr. Magruder doesn't let her slack," Maegan's mother, Shelly Weiler, said. "We expect a lot of Maegan." Though Maegan admitted to sometimes getting frustrated or even mad at Magruder, she enjoyed working with him on the contest and she's proud of how far she's come. Her proudest moment? "When I learned how many pages I read," she said. Well, that and beating her best friend, Abby Rhodes, in a different reading contest. Maegan scored 425 points in Ahtanum Valley's accelerated reading program. Abby, who is not blind, finished with 420 points. "They were in competition all year," Magruder said. But they're still best friends, Maegan said. They run together, play on the monkey bars and the rock wall and dig in dirt piles. "There's also a creek, and we find rocks and throw rocks in there," she said. Just normal kid stuff, really, because despite her blindness, Maegan is just a normal kid - albeit a bright one who loves to read. She wants to be a lawyer and eventually a judge. "So I can be nosy," she said. That's why Maegan likes Nancy Drew books, too. "It's kind of like a puzzle that you don't have to put together with puzzle pieces," she said during an interview on the last morning of school last week. Then the bell rang, Maegan yelled "recess!" and ran out to join her friends. _______________________________________________ nfbwatlk mailing list nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbwatlk: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbwatlk_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 02:16:50 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:16:50 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: [Blindtlk] beware the inaccessible soda machines! In-Reply-To: <9D25F04E68224B2A9BB2156CD720FE47@ZachlaptopPC> References: <9D25F04E68224B2A9BB2156CD720FE47@ZachlaptopPC> Message-ID: Hello, Why don't we push to get Soda machines accessible labeling along with the currency change? This touch screen doesn't have to be a step back as there could be a button that can act like voiceover and give us directions, but If all soda machine's will have to be replaced with the different currency coming into play, there may as well be accessibility put into them. Does anyone know where to talk to about getting this done? Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Zach Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 3:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: [Blindtlk] beware the inaccessible soda machines! Zach Griego-Dreicer Email: zach2012 at chickerland.com Skype and Twitter: Chickerland Facebook profile: http://www.facebook.com/chickerland or find me using this email address. -----Original Message----- From: Aleeha Dudley Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 7:26 PM To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org Subject: [Blindtlk] beware the inaccessible soda machines! Hello All, This evening, I was in a Burger King and saw something that I have never seen before. The traditional soda machine with separate buttons for each soda as well as the ice was replaced with a system that had one spout for all drinks and a touchscreen interface. The machine was completely inaccessible and I had to have sighted assistance to get my drink rather than simply asking which button corresponded to the soda that I wanted. I was upset to see this as I believe it is a considerable step back in mainstream accessibility. I was wondering if anyone else has encountered these machines and if so, are there any sort of accessible options? Thanks, Aleeha _______________________________________________ blindtlk mailing list blindtlk at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/zach2012%40chickerland.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Jun 19 02:16:57 2012 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (SA Mobile) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:16:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott In-Reply-To: <6F541802B7404A13916FD027E6A65E68@OwnerPC> References: <4fd42080.43b6ec0a.16a3.ffffa472@mx.google.com> <16E049BEC9724599A9A40A5F36B3C57C@OwnerPC> <002b01cd477a$b777db00$1400ba43@BRIAN> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AA3@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <10EC810A1D4B4455B3FBFA4FD3B2DC19@OwnerPC> <001401cd4996$2f85eac0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> <6F541802B7404A13916FD027E6A65E68@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <422C36F8-5AF4-4753-824B-058ABCE1CCF6@samobile.net> Peter may not have understood you exactly, but there is no need for rudeness here. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone On 13/06/2012, at 3:44 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Peter, > as usual you miss my point. Did you even go to college like we have? I mean I'm putting cogent arguments together. > If you held a job ever, you know a competetive job takes social skills and > ability to tend to your personal needs. You will not have an employer take you to the bathroom or do much for you. If you dress inappropriately or act socially inappropriately, your employer will also fire you. There is an expectation you can act like an adult when you go to work in an office. In a factory, well I did not work in one, but I've heard you are assigned a certain amount of products to make or you do a certain part of the job on an assembly line. You still have to work at a certain pace. > > I hope you're right that other disabled people get training to move up the ladder or out of > the workshop if they can. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Peter Donahue > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Hello Ashley and everyone, > > Keep in mind that the legislation if passed would phase out subminamum > wages over a three-year period giving workshops plenty of time to develop > new and innovative programs to provide training to the most profoundly > disabled. Many of these people ended up in good Will and other workshops due > to their not having access to the same kind of training available to the > blind. > > The fact that one does not have good social skills or cannot attend to > their personal needs has nothing to do with the payment of subminamum wages > to disabled workers. These concerns need to be addressed differently. There > are also individuals with Servant's Syndrome who when given the right job > or if they enter the right career can succeed beyond imagination. There are > cases of individuals who cannot attend to their personal needs but put them > in a factory setting, at a piano, or whatever you can name they're the best > at their craft. We need to avoid introducing one's level of independence, > personal, and social skills in to the issue of whether one should be paid a > minimum wage or not. Linda may not be able to dress herself but can play > Beethoven as if she was Beethoven himself and should be given a musician's > wage and the spotlight at Carnegie Hall. > > For too long these workshops have been used as "Dumping grounds" for the > seemingly unemployable. This era in our nation's history needs to come to an > end. I hope we all get behind the Good Will boycott and other efforts to > bring the payment of subminamum wages to disabled workers to an end. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:23 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > > Zunaira, > Oh, saying they shouldn't be hired sounds a bit harsh. Workshops and similar > settings do serve a valuable purpose since they produce products for the > government and military. I don't think disabled people should have to work > there, but it should be an option for them. Its doing something and they get > out of the house. I mean, its more productive than say sitting at home or > going to an adult day care center. > > Some people cannot work competetively, and that is okay. You do what you > can. I've seen people with lots of limitations in school and around the > area. Some of them are in wheelchairs with speech problems from cerebral > pulsy. Others are autistic and cannot talk or talk limitedly. Others just > have cognitive delays that prevent their brain from processing input > including speech in a regular speed. > It takes a lot to work competetively, not only making accomodations to > access text material, but also you have to have some social skills, dress > professionally, and yes keep up with deadlines. If one area is lacking, it > could cause problems working and holding a competetive job. > > I believe in integrated settings when possible. I don't think a blind person > need work at Good will. > But I'm sure other disabled people need or want that setting. As for the > wage thing, I have mixed feelings. I do see the discrimination side, but on > the other hand, why pay them a regular wage when they are not performing a > competetive job and as I said before, many of them have guardians that > handle their money anyway since they cannot do it themselves. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Ashley- > I see where you are coming from. If someone can't work competitively then > why should they be paid competitively? The answer is that if they can't > work competitively, they shouldn't be hired. The truth is that many people > can work competitively and employers need to realize that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Brian Hatgelakas > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > Please email me the press release about Goodwill to > brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 3:55 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott > > >> Hi all, >> Brandon makes a good point. I believe media coverage and exposing the >> fact that good will pays sub minimum wage will help more than a boycott. >> Like Brandon, I have not shopped at Good will either nor do I plan to. >> >> Also, I don't understand why we picked on Good will when other large >> nonprofits do it. >> Second, we do not generally speak for all people with disabilities; >> most press releases say "largest consumer organization of the blind" >> or something like it, not people with disabilities. >> Our focus is usually on blind people. >> Third, I don't believe all Good will locations pay sub minimum wage. >> Where is the evidence? >> I noticed the press release gave no facts, just called for a boycott. >> >> Finally, if they do adopt minimum wage, this doesn't make sub minimum >> wage go away. >> I question why all people with disabilities should be paid minimum wage. >> Should people who are very cognitively delayed who have no expenses >> and are cared for in group homes be paid minimum wage? Something to >> think about. >> Should they be paid that much when they cannot see the paycheck and >> handle it like adults? No, they should not be paid $1, but I wonder if >> they really need minimum wage for work that is not comperable to that >> of other workers. >> >> I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some of you say you are surprised >> we still have sub minimum wage for disabled workers. Well, I have news >> for you. >> There are jobs exempt from minimum wage standards. Farm workers, even >> the legal workers, are one example. Read some books, and you'll see >> the exemptions and loopholes. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sophie Trist >> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:19 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Brandon, I see what you mean at people shopping at Goodwill. But I >> have sold old clothes and stuff to Goodwill as well. I think they mean >> a boycott in the buying and selling senses. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:42:01 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, >> I have not shopped at good will in many years. I don't know very many >> people who shop at Good Will, so I'm not sure if a Boycott alone will >> do the trick. >> Maybe if everyone contacted their newspapers and TV stations telling >> them of the boycott and why there is a boycott. Many people find that >> working without minimum wage is insane. But just to hammer the point >> home, point out that this under minimum wage is a way for the United >> States to keep a handhold on under minimum wage so there is some way >> for under minimum wage to be instituted back in for everyone else. The >> precedent is there, so everyone needs to overturn this law so no one >> anywhere in the United States can ever be paid under minimum wage >> again. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Humberto Avila >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:10 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to >> this company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put >> pressure on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as >> well as organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually >> end up spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum >> wages and they could even see that people with disabilities and >> including blind people are capable of being paid like the sighted >> population. If potential employers see this change happening, those >> employers will have a light bulb lit up, and will be able to see that >> blind people are competent, then will hire them. Then we can make more >> change. I see this happening, from my personal opinion. Let's hope >> that the NFB does this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> Justin, >> >> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted >> universally, it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled >> workers fair wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage >> policy and gave their workers fair wages, other corporations might >> follow their lead. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Justin Salisbury > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > 23:19:15 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott >> >> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within >> Goodwill Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change >> simply by the fact that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries >> adopted a universal fair wage policy (if they did), so that would help >> with the education, too. >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can >> change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> ________________________________________ >> From: Justin Salisbury >> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Goodwill Boycott >> >> Arielle, Gabe, and all: >> >> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage >> policies and rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a >> benefit to boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill >> Industries would create a centralized >> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair >> wages? >> >> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to >> adopt a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the >> approach that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the >> decisions in individual locations. I do understand the point of >> leading local business leaders to undergo philosophical change and >> choose to pay their workers fair wages, but which item is the top >> priority: education of individuals or >> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I >> want to hear opinions on it. >> >> Justin >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can >> change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.? >> 뾏ARGARET MEAD >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb >> iggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brian.hatgelakas%40verizon.net >> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 02:36:15 2012 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:36:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] 2012 NABS Candidates' Form! You Won't want to Miss it! Message-ID: Hi All! Now that you have taken a breath from the rigors of the academic year, one of the highlights of the summer is rapidly approaching. That is the NFB national convention! And with convention of course, comes the National Association of Blind Students annual business meeting! The meeting is not only comprised of many fun, informative and engaging presentations; but elections will also take place then. The positions that are up for re-election this year are that of President, 2nd Vice President, Secretary and two board members. Some of you will of course be wondering how in the world you will know who to vote for if you don't really know the candidates. The answer is the 2012 NABS Candidates forum! 1. How it works. The candidates for the executive positions,which are, President, Vice President, and Secretary will all participate in a debate-like teleconference before elections. 2. Who makes up the questions? You do. If you visit: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FDFW5Q7 You will be able to enter questions for each of the positions. 3. When will it be. Wednesday Jun. 27th at 8 PM EST. 4. Where? 1 (619) 326-2700 access code 733-7548 5. What if I want to run? If you would like to run for one of the thee above mentioned positions, and participate in the forum, please contact me no later than Friday 22 by midnight. Anyone can submit questions, and they are totally anonymous! So, put your thinking caps on, and get ready to challenge your future student leaders. So that's all. Please post your questions up, and call in on Wednesday. if you have questions, comments, concerns, please email me. Yours, -- Mary Fernandez Emory 2012 Every experience is a paradox in that it means to be absolute, and yet is relative; in that it somehow always goes beyond itself and yet never escapes itself. T.S. Eliot From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 02:49:55 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:49:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and Microsoft Office In-Reply-To: References: <000901cd4a8f$f08c55c0$d1a50140$@gmail.com><002c01cd4a94$70f0d8e0$52d28aa0$@gmail.com> <009101cd4d5a$5d13b360$173b1a20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006d01cd4dc6$37b40360$a71c0a20$@gmail.com> Hi Ashley, Good. I did, then. Thanks! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:41 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and Microsoft Office Chris, If you cannot tab through the ribbon bar, you turned on virtual ribbons. They are in a menu then. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:57 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and Microsoft Office Hi Humberto, Well, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. When I press alt in a program that has the ribbons, JAWS will say "virtual ribbons." I don't know if this means anything as to whether virtual ribbons on JAWS are turned on or not. Sorry for my ignorance! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Avila Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:16 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Chris, do you have the virtual ribbon menus turned on on JAWS? This makes things so easier! PS in case you don't have them turned on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dlawless86 at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 02:50:18 2012 From: dlawless86 at gmail.com (Domonique Lawless) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:50:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Fundraiser - Handmade Slate Cases Message-ID: <2EB9D5F5-503B-4065-B94A-80249AE851ED@gmail.com> Slate cases are handy, for they keep your stylus and slate from becoming buried or poking holes in your purse, briefcase or backpack. NABS is pleased to offer you stylish, compact, and affordable slate cases! In partnership with Stitchville of Ruston, Louisiana, NABS has designed and manufactured trendy, handmade slate cases made from cotton with a durable, interior lining. They fit a standard 28-cell slate and have a pocket for a stylus. The cases have a velcro closure to prevent loss of any of your slating supplies. They also come with grommets (reinforced holes) so you can easily stow your slate case in a 3-ring binder. There are currently five patterns to choose from. Black with white trim. If you are interested in a more monochrome look, than this is the case for you. Argyle: This is a diamond pattern. The colors in this pattern are blue, brown, turquoise, pink, green, red, orange, and white. Brown with polkadots. The background of this fabric is chocolate brown and it is covered with an assortment of light colors. Floral pattern. This fabric is white with red leaves and black curling vines. Lime green with chairs.. The background is lime green and printed across the fabric are all sorts of chairs. Almost all of the chairs are white but every once and a while you’ll find a blue one. NABS is selling these cases for $15. If you are interested in purchasing one please email dlawless86 at gmail.com. Because this is a new product, custom-designed for students, we will be drop-shipping these cases as they become available. Pre-orders are highly likely (albeit not guaranteed) to be for pickup in the exhibit hall. While we will take orders in the exhibit hall at convention, we encourage you to take advantage of the free shipping for pre-orders! From beckyasabo at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 03:10:37 2012 From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (Becky Sabo) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:10:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Message-ID: <001f01cd4dc9$1b08f6f0$511ae4d0$@gmail.com> Hello My name is Becky I also have a updated version of Microsoft 2010. I was wondering is there a cheat sheet of all of the different short keys to use for word, xcell and outlook or any other products? I am using JAWS 11 right now trying to get a updated version of JAWS. Thanks again. Becky Sabo -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 8:50 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and Microsoft Office Hi Ashley, Good. I did, then. Thanks! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:41 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and Microsoft Office Chris, If you cannot tab through the ribbon bar, you turned on virtual ribbons. They are in a menu then. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:57 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and Microsoft Office Hi Humberto, Well, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. When I press alt in a program that has the ribbons, JAWS will say "virtual ribbons." I don't know if this means anything as to whether virtual ribbons on JAWS are turned on or not. Sorry for my ignorance! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Avila Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:16 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Chris, do you have the virtual ribbon menus turned on on JAWS? This makes things so easier! PS in case you don't have them turned on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of this thread more clearly. Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to them. Hope this helps, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace Ashley, You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. Best, Kirt On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bill, > There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. > However, > > that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or > window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We > have more access too because you can customize not only the > applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do > not know how much customization > > you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only > works with products produced by Apple. > The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise > awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from > the beginning. Too > > often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer > may have > > scripts produced for you to access their software. > Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as > of 2007 > > make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person > can skim > > the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a > traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter > navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the > old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. > If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as > I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system > looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on > the start menu as we do now. > > Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, > quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. > So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that > said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility > to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing > they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the > system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications > produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for > firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the > third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on > windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the > software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better > access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider > viriety of everyday and specialty programs. > Bill > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira > wrote: >> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >> conversion was just a thought. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of David Andrews >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >> >> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >> >> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >> >> Dave >> >> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>violate >> >>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >> >>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>were >> enforced. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>acessible >> programs? >>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>hurdles >> >>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>the only >>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>system is >> >>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >> discriminatory! >>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>but >> >>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>nonvisually impaired employee >> has the skills? >>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>this >> >>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>an >> effective way of >>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>option I >>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>change. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>because >> >>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >> quota. >>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>This >>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>>Ashley, >>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>policy >> to set that straight. >>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>humble >> >>>opinion. >>> Take it or leave it, >>>Kirt >>> >>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Elizabeth, >>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>are >>> >>> paid >>> >>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>> they >> >>>pay. I >>> >>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>am >>> >>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>but >>> >>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>considerable >> >>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>the >> >>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>information that was cited in the article itself. >>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>I am >>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Hi Elizabeth, >>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>> >>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>ed-E >>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>many states >> >>>have minimum wage laws that are higher >>> >>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>by state, go to: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>> >>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>> >>> Hi Gregg, >>> >>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>how >> >>>exactly >>> >>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>calculated >>> >>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>factory >> >>>worker or the >>> >>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>numbers, but if >>> >>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>> issue >>> >>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Greg Aikens" >> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>actually >>> >>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>> 7300 >> >>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>> >>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>> >>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>workers with disabilities >>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>> >>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>> >>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>is so >>> >>> high. >>> >>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>would post in case others are interested too. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>> >>> Good afternoon, >>> >>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>> attention >>> >>> for >>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>> >>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>> and >>> >>> most >>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>> workers >>> >>> with >>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>> >>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>> scrutinized >> >>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>> >>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>> >>> for >>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>> >>> management of >>> >>> these >>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>> >>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>> >>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>the >> >>>wage to give them >>> >>> the >>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>> >>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>> >>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>government contracting should have to >>> >>> fill >>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>stands >>> >>> now, >>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>> >>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>> >>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>that >> >>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>> >>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>completely correct. The boycott of Good >>> >>> Will >>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>> us >>> >>> to >>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>realistically going to >>> >>> lead >>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>I >>> >>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>currently makes $1.50 an >>> >>> hour. >>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>> employee >> >>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>> >>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>> >>> of >>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>> >>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>> >>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>changed is bogus and cynical. >>> As I >>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>> >>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>> >>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>government pays. >>> And, as >>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>support the >>> >>> 70, >>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>> >>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>> >>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>> to >> >>>everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>> >>> Sean >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >> fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >> om > > > > -- > Bill Casson > University of New Mexico > M.S. Computer Science > Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11 > B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. > (505) 695-1374 > cassonw at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.com From PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu Tue Jun 19 03:32:18 2012 From: PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu (Justin Salisbury) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 03:32:18 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Message-ID: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7E3480@SN2PRD0510MB360.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> On behalf of the North Carolina Association of Blind Students, I wish to thank those who participated in the conference call tonight to discuss the Goodwill boycott and the broader issues of subminimum wages and the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. As expected, Anil Lewis was extremely helpful, informative, and inspirational. The contributions of students outside North Carolina was quite significant, and you all truly enhanced our call. Justin Salisbury President North Carolina Association of Blind Students Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD From tyler at tysdomain.com Tue Jun 19 05:06:04 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 23:06:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself Message-ID: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> Hello all: My name is Ty, and I am relatively new to the list. I am a member of ACBS; I am in fact the webmaster. I know a lot of people kind of go for one over the other, but I like to stay somewhere in the middle; I think both organizations do good, and that's what I like to see. I figured this would come up from anyone who knew me as the webmaster, so I wanted to get it out of the way. I live in Colorado, and am currently working on a degree in computer science with an emphasis on security. In my free time, I enjoy reading, music, carving and I do a lot of technology related stuff; I have had experience with numerous programming languages, Windows, Linux and OSX. I have an awesome yellow lab guide dog, whose name is O'Mally. I received him from GDB in early August of 2011. I think that's basically it for me. I look forward to contributing and reading the discussions on list. -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 05:25:53 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:25:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> References: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Welcome to the list. We're glad to have you. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 19, 2012, at 12:06 AM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > Hello all: > My name is Ty, and I am relatively new to the list. I am a member of ACBS; I am in fact the webmaster. I know a lot of people kind of go for one over the other, but I like to stay somewhere in the middle; I think both organizations do good, and that's what I like to see. I figured this would come up from anyone who knew me as the webmaster, so I wanted to get it out of the way. > > I live in Colorado, and am currently working on a degree in computer science with an emphasis on security. In my free time, I enjoy reading, music, carving and I do a lot of technology related stuff; I have had experience with numerous programming languages, Windows, Linux and OSX. > > I have an awesome yellow lab guide dog, whose name is O'Mally. I received him from GDB in early August of 2011. > > I think that's basically it for me. I look forward to contributing and reading the discussions on list. > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 07:38:33 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:38:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Events To Put On Your Convention Radar! Message-ID: Hello fellow students, We are fast approaching convention (can you believe it?) A few announcements/reminders from the national Association of Blind Students: 1. Don’t forget the nabs meeting that will Take place on Sunday, July 1. Registration is at 6:15 p.m. and the Meeting begins promptly at 7; but to avoid standing in long lines when the meeting starts, please show up early. If you register before 6:45, your name will be entered into the drawing for an exciting door prize, to be given out at the conclusion of the nabs meeting at 10:00. This year our meeting will be held in the Stemmons Ballroom in The Atrium lobby. This is a change from past years in Dallas when our Meeting was on the tower side, so take note and don't autopilot Yourself to the wrong place! For more information, please watch out for the many updates to follow. 2. On Saturday evening from9:00 to midnight, NABS will be hosting a Student Hospitality Night in the Affiliate Action Suite, Room 2372. Here we will have snacks and games. Come on by to meet and mingle With other blind high school, college, graduate and nontraditional Students. Plenty of NABS Board members and state division leaders will be on hand as well. So If you have ideas about what you would like to see NABS doing or how We might strengthen the organization, definitely bring those along, Too. Drop in and drop Out whenever you wish, but be sure to drop by! Even if you plan to rock karaoke, or are new to convention and wish to visit the Rookie Roundup (a gathering for first-time convention attendees), we would still love it if you would make nabs a part of your plans Saturday night! 3. Finally, NABS will be hosting our Monte Carlo fundraiser on Wednesday, July 4 from 8:00pm to 11:30. The action will be taking place in the Morocco Room in the Tower mezzanine. For $10 participants will get a bag of chips to go play Texas Hold'em, blackjack, and other card Games. Bring your friends, or come make some new ones! A cash bar will Be available. Come on out and support your fellow students and the Work we do in NABS! Should you have any questions about any of our nabs events, please Feel free to contact any of the nabs board and we would love to Answer them for you! See you in a little less than two weeks!! From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 08:40:04 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 01:40:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs still Needs Your Help at National Convention Message-ID: hey all! Thanks so much for your help thus far in staffing nabs events- you have been great! If you are a card dealer, or can help marshal (using the power of your voice to direct people to our events ), or can help us clean-up and count playing chips, we would still much appreciate your help! read on for more info on what we still need help wit (remember, the student division that has the most members helping out with nabs stuff, will be announced in front of envious ears at the nabs business meeting!). As you all know, the National association of blind students is planning a lot of exciting things at national convention. What you may not know however is that we as a board can’t do all of it ourselves. So we would very much appreciate your help in making the nabs activities a success this year! Where we would most appreciate your assistance is in two areas: 1. Assistance in staffing the nabs table located in the exhibit hall. Here you will be partnered up with a nabs board member selling nabs items and handing out nabs literature. The remaining schedule for tabling looks like this: Wednesday, July 4: Shift 11: 6:00p.m. – 8:30 p.m. As you can see, the shifts are filling up, so if you contact me with your preference, I will be more than happy to get you scheduled in! 2. Staffing the nabs Monte Carlo night fund raiser. This is a great opportunity to work shoulder to shoulder with us in putting together one of our most successful events that we do. For this we will need: Individuals who can work an early shift (7:00 p.m. - 9:30 p.m. Those individuals will be asked to either a. Marshal. b. Set up for the event c. Deal card games( blackjack, poker, holdemand other such games) We will also need Late shift workers (9:30 p.m. – 12:00 a.m.) Those individuals would be asked to: a. deal card games (blackjack, poker, holdem and other such games) b. Assist with event clean- up and playing chip counting. c. Marshal Please let me know what shift(s) you are interested in working (exhibit hall, Monte Carlo or both). Also please supply a contact phone number where you can be reached during convention. If you are interested in working Monte Carlo, please let me know what job you would like to take on, if you would like to deal and what games you would like to deal (blackjack, poker, holdem or other such games). This is a great opportunity for you to meet the nabs board, and us to get to know you. As well, this is an equally great opportunity for you to meet a lot of new people and have some fun at the same time. Please contact me if interested. I can be contacted at: dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thank you so much for your interest and I look forward to hearing from you all real soon And of course, see you in Dallas!!! Best, Darian -- Darian Smith 2nd Vice President, National Association of Blind Students "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From lilrichie411 at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 14:20:50 2012 From: lilrichie411 at gmail.com (Jordan Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 09:20:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> References: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <658E810F-F192-45B3-A0FB-46FD3BAA7811@gmail.com> Hey Ty, Welcome to the student division's national list. My name is Jordan and I am the student president in Minnesota. It sounds like you like to keep an open mind, which I think is very important and, in our society, as it is today what more people need to do. You will be a great addition to our discussions. Jordan Minnabs President Sent from my iPod On 19/06/2012, at 0:06, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > Hello all: > My name is Ty, and I am relatively new to the list. I am a member of ACBS; I am in fact the webmaster. I know a lot of people kind of go for one over the other, but I like to stay somewhere in the middle; I think both organizations do good, and that's what I like to see. I figured this would come up from anyone who knew me as the webmaster, so I wanted to get it out of the way. > > I live in Colorado, and am currently working on a degree in computer science with an emphasis on security. In my free time, I enjoy reading, music, carving and I do a lot of technology related stuff; I have had experience with numerous programming languages, Windows, Linux and OSX. > > I have an awesome yellow lab guide dog, whose name is O'Mally. I received him from GDB in early August of 2011. > > I think that's basically it for me. I look forward to contributing and reading the discussions on list. > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilrichie411%40gmail.com From AllisonH at benetech.org Tue Jun 19 15:31:33 2012 From: AllisonH at benetech.org (Allison Hilliker) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:31:33 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage Message-ID: Hi everyone, There seemed to be some concern by some folks on this list about the future accessibility of the Bookshare site. Accessibility is a priority to Bookshare. The homepage updates have been tested by blind and visually-impaired testers at Bookshare. We continuously strive to improve our products, build new and better features, and ensure their accessibility. If you would like to help Bookshare accomplish this, we encourage you to volunteer in our testing program. You can sign up here: http://www.tfaforms.com/240617 Best, Allison Hilliker Bookshare Collection Development Associate allisonh at bookshare.org Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary! From cape.amanda at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 15:40:15 2012 From: cape.amanda at gmail.com (Amanda) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:40:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23DAEE35-5599-44FA-8CFD-EF33B54A4A3A@gmail.com> Hi Alison, Is there a way to request some titles be added to bookshare? Amanda On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Allison Hilliker wrote: > Hi everyone, > > There seemed to be some concern by some folks on this list about the future accessibility of the Bookshare site. Accessibility is a priority to Bookshare. The homepage updates have been tested by blind and visually-impaired testers at Bookshare. We continuously strive to improve our products, build new and better features, and ensure their accessibility. If you would like to help Bookshare accomplish this, we encourage you to volunteer in our testing program. You can sign up here: http://www.tfaforms.com/240617 > > Best, > > Allison Hilliker > Bookshare Collection Development Associate > allisonh at bookshare.org > > Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary! > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com From AllisonH at benetech.org Tue Jun 19 15:45:58 2012 From: AllisonH at benetech.org (Allison Hilliker) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:45:58 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: <23DAEE35-5599-44FA-8CFD-EF33B54A4A3A@gmail.com> References: <23DAEE35-5599-44FA-8CFD-EF33B54A4A3A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Amanda, Yes, there are several ways to request a book for Bookshare. If you're a student who needs a book for school then we will prioritize your request. Please e-mail school-related requests to schoolbookrequest at bookshare.org or use the contact us form on our web page. If the book is not for school, you can add the book to our wish list by e-mailing wishlist at bookshare.org. Best, Allison -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 8:40 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage Hi Alison, Is there a way to request some titles be added to bookshare? Amanda On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Allison Hilliker wrote: > Hi everyone, > > There seemed to be some concern by some folks on this list about the > future accessibility of the Bookshare site. Accessibility is a > priority to Bookshare. The homepage updates have been tested by blind > and visually-impaired testers at Bookshare. We continuously strive to > improve our products, build new and better features, and ensure their > accessibility. If you would like to help Bookshare accomplish this, > we encourage you to volunteer in our testing program. You can sign up > here: http://www.tfaforms.com/240617 > > Best, > > Allison Hilliker > Bookshare Collection Development Associate allisonh at bookshare.org > > Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary! > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmai > l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/allisonh%40benetech.org From cape.amanda at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 15:51:15 2012 From: cape.amanda at gmail.com (Amanda) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:51:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: References: <23DAEE35-5599-44FA-8CFD-EF33B54A4A3A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <765CB27D-8986-4FFE-80F1-42B1BB257194@gmail.com> Okay, thanks. Amanda On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:45 AM, Allison Hilliker wrote: > > Hi Amanda, > > Yes, there are several ways to request a book for Bookshare. If you're a student who needs a book for school then we will prioritize your request. Please e-mail school-related requests to schoolbookrequest at bookshare.org or use the contact us form on our web page. If the book is not for school, you can add the book to our wish list by e-mailing wishlist at bookshare.org. > > Best, > Allison > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 8:40 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage > > Hi Alison, > Is there a way to request some titles be added to bookshare? > > Amanda > > On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Allison Hilliker wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> There seemed to be some concern by some folks on this list about the >> future accessibility of the Bookshare site. Accessibility is a >> priority to Bookshare. The homepage updates have been tested by blind >> and visually-impaired testers at Bookshare. We continuously strive to >> improve our products, build new and better features, and ensure their >> accessibility. If you would like to help Bookshare accomplish this, >> we encourage you to volunteer in our testing program. You can sign up >> here: http://www.tfaforms.com/240617 >> >> Best, >> >> Allison Hilliker >> Bookshare Collection Development Associate allisonh at bookshare.org >> >> Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmai >> l.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/allisonh%40benetech.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com From cape.amanda at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 15:53:24 2012 From: cape.amanda at gmail.com (Amanda) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:53:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: References: <23DAEE35-5599-44FA-8CFD-EF33B54A4A3A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6B609D24-DE26-4015-82C8-1411EF5B7BB6@gmail.com> How long does it usually take to get a book on bookshare if it isn't for school? Amanda On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:45 AM, Allison Hilliker wrote: > > Hi Amanda, > > Yes, there are several ways to request a book for Bookshare. If you're a student who needs a book for school then we will prioritize your request. Please e-mail school-related requests to schoolbookrequest at bookshare.org or use the contact us form on our web page. If the book is not for school, you can add the book to our wish list by e-mailing wishlist at bookshare.org. > > Best, > Allison > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 8:40 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage > > Hi Alison, > Is there a way to request some titles be added to bookshare? > > Amanda > > On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Allison Hilliker wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> There seemed to be some concern by some folks on this list about the >> future accessibility of the Bookshare site. Accessibility is a >> priority to Bookshare. The homepage updates have been tested by blind >> and visually-impaired testers at Bookshare. We continuously strive to >> improve our products, build new and better features, and ensure their >> accessibility. If you would like to help Bookshare accomplish this, >> we encourage you to volunteer in our testing program. You can sign up >> here: http://www.tfaforms.com/240617 >> >> Best, >> >> Allison Hilliker >> Bookshare Collection Development Associate allisonh at bookshare.org >> >> Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmai >> l.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/allisonh%40benetech.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com From cape.amanda at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 16:02:14 2012 From: cape.amanda at gmail.com (Amanda) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:02:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] iTunes question Message-ID: <309B44F4-9F9D-49B6-B8DA-A16872797997@gmail.com> Hi everyone, Does anyone know if there is a way to cut and paste everything from my iTunes library onto an external hard drive? Amanda From tyler at tysdomain.com Tue Jun 19 16:05:43 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 10:05:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] iTunes question In-Reply-To: <309B44F4-9F9D-49B6-B8DA-A16872797997@gmail.com> References: <309B44F4-9F9D-49B6-B8DA-A16872797997@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FE0A357.8050906@tysdomain.com> Hello: You can back up your libraryy but you can't copy and paste things generally because they're kind of anti-copy. Some stouff s in iyouritunes media folder. This might help you though: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1751On 6/19/2012 10:02 AM, Amanda wrote: > Hi everyone, > Does anyone know if there is a way to cut and paste everything from my iTunes library onto an external hard drive? > > Amanda > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From cape.amanda at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 16:10:50 2012 From: cape.amanda at gmail.com (Amanda) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:10:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] iTunes question In-Reply-To: <4FE0A357.8050906@tysdomain.com> References: <309B44F4-9F9D-49B6-B8DA-A16872797997@gmail.com> <4FE0A357.8050906@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Can I back up the library onto an external? Amanda On Jun 19, 2012, at 12:05 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > Hello: > You can back up your libraryy but you can't copy and paste things generally because they're kind of anti-copy. Some stouff s in iyouritunes media folder. > This might help you though: > http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1751On 6/19/2012 10:02 AM, Amanda wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> Does anyone know if there is a way to cut and paste everything from my iTunes library onto an external hard drive? >> >> Amanda >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com From tyler at tysdomain.com Tue Jun 19 16:16:18 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 10:16:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] iTunes question In-Reply-To: References: <309B44F4-9F9D-49B6-B8DA-A16872797997@gmail.com> <4FE0A357.8050906@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <4FE0A5D2.9020905@tysdomain.com> that article explains how to do it, yes. On 6/19/2012 10:10 AM, Amanda wrote: > Can I back up the library onto an external? > > Amanda > > On Jun 19, 2012, at 12:05 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > >> Hello: >> You can back up your libraryy but you can't copy and paste things generally because they're kind of anti-copy. Some stouff s in iyouritunes media folder. >> This might help you though: >> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1751On 6/19/2012 10:02 AM, Amanda wrote: >>> Hi everyone, >>> Does anyone know if there is a way to cut and paste everything from my iTunes library onto an external hard drive? >>> >>> Amanda >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From cape.amanda at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 16:19:17 2012 From: cape.amanda at gmail.com (Amanda) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:19:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] iTunes question In-Reply-To: <4FE0A5D2.9020905@tysdomain.com> References: <309B44F4-9F9D-49B6-B8DA-A16872797997@gmail.com> <4FE0A357.8050906@tysdomain.com> <4FE0A5D2.9020905@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <02625365-5D23-4774-9274-B8902D6174A9@gmail.com> K thanks a lot. Amanda On Jun 19, 2012, at 12:16 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > that article explains how to do it, yes. > On 6/19/2012 10:10 AM, Amanda wrote: >> Can I back up the library onto an external? >> >> Amanda >> >> On Jun 19, 2012, at 12:05 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: >> >>> Hello: >>> You can back up your libraryy but you can't copy and paste things generally because they're kind of anti-copy. Some stouff s in iyouritunes media folder. >>> This might help you though: >>> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1751On 6/19/2012 10:02 AM, Amanda wrote: >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> Does anyone know if there is a way to cut and paste everything from my iTunes library onto an external hard drive? >>>> >>>> Amanda >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 16:50:39 2012 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cynthia Bennett) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 09:50:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] iTunes question In-Reply-To: <02625365-5D23-4774-9274-B8902D6174A9@gmail.com> References: <309B44F4-9F9D-49B6-B8DA-A16872797997@gmail.com> <4FE0A357.8050906@tysdomain.com> <4FE0A5D2.9020905@tysdomain.com> <02625365-5D23-4774-9274-B8902D6174A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tyler: I have also been interested in this. But I couldn't find a link to the article you mentioned. Maybe I am crazy, but if you could direct me to it, that would be great. Thanks. Cindy On 6/19/12, Amanda wrote: > K thanks a lot. > > Amanda > > On Jun 19, 2012, at 12:16 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" > wrote: > >> that article explains how to do it, yes. >> On 6/19/2012 10:10 AM, Amanda wrote: >>> Can I back up the library onto an external? >>> >>> Amanda >>> >>> On Jun 19, 2012, at 12:05 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello: >>>> You can back up your libraryy but you can't copy and paste things >>>> generally because they're kind of anti-copy. Some stouff s in >>>> iyouritunes media folder. >>>> This might help you though: >>>> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1751On 6/19/2012 10:02 AM, Amanda wrote: >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> Does anyone know if there is a way to cut and paste everything from my >>>>> iTunes library onto an external hard drive? >>>>> >>>>> Amanda >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Take care, >>>> Ty >>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >> that dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cynthia Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From tyler at tysdomain.com Tue Jun 19 17:10:33 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:10:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] iTunes question In-Reply-To: References: <309B44F4-9F9D-49B6-B8DA-A16872797997@gmail.com> <4FE0A357.8050906@tysdomain.com> <4FE0A5D2.9020905@tysdomain.com> <02625365-5D23-4774-9274-B8902D6174A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FE0B289.1020302@tysdomain.com> here is the link I posted: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1751On On 6/19/2012 10:50 AM, Cynthia Bennett wrote: > Tyler: > > I have also been interested in this. But I couldn't find a link to the > article you mentioned. Maybe I am crazy, but if you could direct me to > it, that would be great. Thanks. > > Cindy > > On 6/19/12, Amanda wrote: >> K thanks a lot. >> >> Amanda >> >> On Jun 19, 2012, at 12:16 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" >> wrote: >> >>> that article explains how to do it, yes. >>> On 6/19/2012 10:10 AM, Amanda wrote: >>>> Can I back up the library onto an external? >>>> >>>> Amanda >>>> >>>> On Jun 19, 2012, at 12:05 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello: >>>>> You can back up your libraryy but you can't copy and paste things >>>>> generally because they're kind of anti-copy. Some stouff s in >>>>> iyouritunes media folder. >>>>> This might help you though: >>>>> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1751On 6/19/2012 10:02 AM, Amanda wrote: >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> Does anyone know if there is a way to cut and paste everything from my >>>>>> iTunes library onto an external hard drive? >>>>>> >>>>>> Amanda >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>>>> -- >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Ty >>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 17:35:15 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:35:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: <6B609D24-DE26-4015-82C8-1411EF5B7BB6@gmail.com> References: <23DAEE35-5599-44FA-8CFD-EF33B54A4A3A@gmail.com> <6B609D24-DE26-4015-82C8-1411EF5B7BB6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <14B9FD14-9954-43C0-A221-DA9E3D0206E3@gmail.com> if the book is already on Bookshare, you can download it instantly. If you have requested a book which isn't on Bokshare, I think it takes about 2 weeks. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPod On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:53 AM, Amanda wrote: > How long does it usually take to get a book on bookshare if it isn't for school? > > Amanda > > On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:45 AM, Allison Hilliker wrote: > >> >> Hi Amanda, >> >> Yes, there are several ways to request a book for Bookshare. If you're a student who needs a book for school then we will prioritize your request. Please e-mail school-related requests to schoolbookrequest at bookshare.org or use the contact us form on our web page. If the book is not for school, you can add the book to our wish list by e-mailing wishlist at bookshare.org. >> >> Best, >> Allison >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda >> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 8:40 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage >> >> Hi Alison, >> Is there a way to request some titles be added to bookshare? >> >> Amanda >> >> On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Allison Hilliker wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> There seemed to be some concern by some folks on this list about the >>> future accessibility of the Bookshare site. Accessibility is a >>> priority to Bookshare. The homepage updates have been tested by blind >>> and visually-impaired testers at Bookshare. We continuously strive to >>> improve our products, build new and better features, and ensure their >>> accessibility. If you would like to help Bookshare accomplish this, >>> we encourage you to volunteer in our testing program. You can sign up >>> here: http://www.tfaforms.com/240617 >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Allison Hilliker >>> Bookshare Collection Development Associate allisonh at bookshare.org >>> >>> Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmai >>> l.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/allisonh%40benetech.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From AllisonH at benetech.org Tue Jun 19 18:21:39 2012 From: AllisonH at benetech.org (Allison Hilliker) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:21:39 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage In-Reply-To: <6B609D24-DE26-4015-82C8-1411EF5B7BB6@gmail.com> References: <23DAEE35-5599-44FA-8CFD-EF33B54A4A3A@gmail.com> <6B609D24-DE26-4015-82C8-1411EF5B7BB6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Amanda, Books on the wish list go out for volunteers to scan. Folks pick the books they like from the list and then scan them for the collection. The time it takes depends upon how Quickly a book gets chosen so unfortunately I can't give a time estimate. Best, Allison -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 8:53 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage How long does it usually take to get a book on bookshare if it isn't for school? Amanda On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:45 AM, Allison Hilliker wrote: > > Hi Amanda, > > Yes, there are several ways to request a book for Bookshare. If you're a student who needs a book for school then we will prioritize your request. Please e-mail school-related requests to schoolbookrequest at bookshare.org or use the contact us form on our web page. If the book is not for school, you can add the book to our wish list by e-mailing wishlist at bookshare.org. > > Best, > Allison > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Amanda > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 8:40 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Changes coming to Bookshare homepage > > Hi Alison, > Is there a way to request some titles be added to bookshare? > > Amanda > > On Jun 19, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Allison Hilliker wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> There seemed to be some concern by some folks on this list about the >> future accessibility of the Bookshare site. Accessibility is a >> priority to Bookshare. The homepage updates have been tested by blind >> and visually-impaired testers at Bookshare. We continuously strive to >> improve our products, build new and better features, and ensure their >> accessibility. If you would like to help Bookshare accomplish this, >> we encourage you to volunteer in our testing program. You can sign up >> here: http://www.tfaforms.com/240617 >> >> Best, >> >> Allison Hilliker >> Bookshare Collection Development Associate allisonh at bookshare.org >> >> Join us in celebrating our 10th Anniversary! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmai >> l.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/allisonh%40benetech.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/allisonh%40benetech.org From dandrews at visi.com Tue Jun 19 20:17:38 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:17:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and Microsoft Office In-Reply-To: <001f01cd4dc9$1b08f6f0$511ae4d0$@gmail.com> References: <001f01cd4dc9$1b08f6f0$511ae4d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FE0DE62.2010307@visi.com> Well, National Braille Press has published command guides over the years -- I am not sure what they have right now. Microsoft has also put out guides of keyboard commands, search on bung or Google and I am sure you can find them -- they will be windows commands, not JAWS commands. Dave On 6/18/2012 10:10 PM, Becky Sabo wrote: > Hello > My name is Becky I also have a updated version of Microsoft 2010. I was > wondering is there a cheat sheet of all of the different short keys to use > for word, xcell and outlook or any other products? > I am using JAWS 11 right now trying to get a updated version of JAWS. > Thanks again. > Becky Sabo > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 8:50 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and > Microsoft Office > > Hi Ashley, > > Good. I did, then. Thanks! > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:41 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and > Microsoft Office > > Chris, > If you cannot tab through the ribbon bar, you turned on virtual ribbons. > They are in a menu then. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:57 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions ofWindows and > Microsoft Office > > Hi Humberto, > > Well, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. When I press alt in a program that > has the ribbons, JAWS will say "virtual ribbons." I don't know if this means > anything as to whether virtual ribbons on JAWS are turned on or not. Sorry > for my ignorance! > > > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Humberto Avila > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:16 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and > Microsoft Office > > Chris, do you have the virtual ribbon menus turned on on JAWS? This makes > things so easier! PS in case you don't have them turned on. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:44 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows and > Microsoft Office > > Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone, > > With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new topic of > this thread more clearly. > > Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for about two > months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty accessible, but > it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have all the features of > Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in the least. Outlook, on the > other hand, is totally accessible, easy to learn and to use (much easier > than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,) and all of its features are > accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook 2010, which is part of Microsoft > Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows 7 Home Premium and JAWS 12. > > I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you get > the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older Microsoft > Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form of tabs which > appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person with lower ribbons > inside those tabs. This may seem a little confusing, as I'm describing > partly what it would look like to a sighted person, based on what sighted > people have told me. If you are using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu > bars, are accessed by pressing the alt key from within a program that has > them, such as Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which > are the "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by > pressing the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, > press down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is > like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS as a > button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in Outlook, you > would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then go to the respond > submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says "reply all button" and > hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars once you get used to > them. > > Hope this helps, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace > > Ashley, > You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings. > (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you > prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible because > of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't have to tab > through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes still work, you can > turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost like it used to before and, > honestly, I like the ribbons better than the menus sometimes just because > it's really easy, in my opinion, to find what I need. And, as I said, the > quick access tool bar is a huge plus for me. > Best, > Kirt > > On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Bill, >> There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software. >> However, >> >> that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or >> window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We >> have more access too because you can customize not only the >> applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do >> not know how much customization >> >> you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only >> works with products produced by Apple. >> The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise >> awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from >> the beginning. Too >> >> often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer >> may have >> >> scripts produced for you to access their software. >> Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as >> of 2007 >> >> make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person >> can skim >> >> the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a >> traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter >> navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the >> old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count. >> If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as >> I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system >> looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option on >> the start menu as we do now. >> >> Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include quickbooks, >> quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share point. >> So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that >> said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility >> to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as well. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill >> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace >> >> I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing >> they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the >> system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications >> produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for >> firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine the >> third party business applications, though sometimes not accessible on >> windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple and the >> software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us better >> access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far wider >> viriety of everyday and specialty programs. >> Bill >> >> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira >> wrote: >>> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web >>> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is >>> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may >>> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple >>> conversion was just a thought. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of David Andrews >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>> >>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently >>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't. >>> >>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be >>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come >>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make >>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote: >>>> I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all >>>> employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become >>>> accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft ware, >>>> it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I have two >>>> clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't working well >>>> with the employer's technology. This is a form of discrimination and >>>> it violates the ADA in the same way that inaccessible web cites >>>> violate >>>> the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though >>>> he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse. >>>> All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA >>>> were >>> enforced. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers >>>> ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who >>>> are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of >>>> the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs, >>>> maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install >>>> acessible >>> programs? >>>> I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira">>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal >>>> hurdles >>>> such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know >>>> that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe >>>> the only >>>> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is >>>> through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the form >>>> of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work with >>>> clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's computer >>>> system is >>>> running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The >>>> fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is >>> discriminatory! >>>> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level >>>> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is >>>> reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for "more programs," >>>> but >>>> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or >>>> through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street >>>> like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a >>>> certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an >>>> employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I >>>> see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls >>>> Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter >>>> asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that >>>> companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit and >>>> they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person has the >>>> skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if a >>>> nonvisually impaired employee >>> has the skills? >>>> They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is "oh, >>>> yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a tax >>>> break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better pay me >>>> to hire that blind person." This is the current situation. Our >>>> government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like >>>> Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we are >>>> taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How is >>>> this >>>> any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system is >>>> perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its >>>> an >>> effective way of >>>> proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better >>>> option I >>>> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make >>>> change. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the >>>> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be >>>> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were >>>> rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled >>>> could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us >>>> because >>>> we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain >>> quota. >>>> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira">>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people? >>>> This >>>> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to >>>> settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Ashley, >>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose >>>> you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this >>>> boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any >>>> employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national >>>> policy >>> to set that straight. >>>> Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is >>>> one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my >>>> humble >>>> opinion. >>>> Take it or leave it, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Elizabeth, >>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees >>>> are >>>> >>>> paid >>>> >>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what >>>> they >>>> pay. I >>>> >>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you >>>> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I >>>> am >>>> >>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when >>>> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, >>>> but >>>> >>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the >>>> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a >>>> considerable >>>> amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an >>>> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning >>>> the >>>> information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the >>>> information that was cited in the article itself. >>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me. >>>> I am >>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens">>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Hi Elizabeth, >>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article >>>> recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis: >>>> >>>> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl >>>> ed-E >>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of >>>> employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an >>>> average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because >>>> many states >>>> have minimum wage laws that are higher >>>> >>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage >>>> by state, go to: >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages >>>> >>>> Please check my facts in case I misread. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Gregg, >>>> >>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If >>>> these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then >>>> how >>>> exactly >>>> >>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the >>>> calculated >>>> >>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high >>>> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect >>>> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the >>>> factory >>>> worker or the >>>> >>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above >>>> the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your >>>> numbers, but if >>>> >>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an >>>> issue >>>> >>>> of paying people subminimum wage. >>>> >>>> Warm regards, >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Greg Aikens">>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc. >>>> >>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually >>>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to >>>> actually >>>> >>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted, >>>> 7300 >>>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers >>>> less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47, >>>> which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I >>>> can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers >>>> >>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it >>>> >>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay >>>> workers with disabilities >>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply that >>>> >>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000. >>>> >>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy >>>> is so >>>> >>>> high. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I >>>> would post in case others are interested too. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote: >>>> >>>> Good afternoon, >>>> >>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media >>>> attention >>>> >>>> for >>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are >>>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive. >>>> >>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest >>>> and >>>> >>>> most >>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay >>>> workers >>>> >>>> with >>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the >>>> >>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be >>>> scrutinized >>>> by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. >>>> >>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with >>>> the federal government, providing goods and services through >>>> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are >>>> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. >>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, >>>> but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize >>>> nonprofits to create employment opportunities >>>> >>>> for >>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, >>>> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the >>>> >>>> management of >>>> >>>> these >>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of >>>> disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce >>>> output justifying the minimum wage in the market? >>>> >>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who >>>> are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than >>>> >>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of >>>> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize >>>> the >>>> wage to give them >>>> >>>> the >>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law. >>>> >>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per >>>> >>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. >>>> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to >>>> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, >>>> but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in >>>> government contracting should have to >>>> >>>> fill >>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with >>>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it >>>> stands >>>> >>>> now, >>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. >>>> >>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for >>>> >>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities >>>> rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying >>>> that >>>> it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, >>>> have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and >>>> >>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are >>>> completely correct. The boycott of Good >>>> >>>> Will >>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of >>>> us >>>> >>>> to >>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it >>>> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their >>>> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost >>>> realistically going to >>>> >>>> lead >>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? >>>> I >>>> >>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is >>>> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker >>>> currently makes $1.50 an >>>> >>>> hour. >>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the >>>> employee >>>> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an >>>> >>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 >>>> employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). >>>> This would represent an annual cost increase >>>> >>>> of >>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a >>>> >>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller >>>> >>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor >>>> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is >>>> changed is bogus and cynical. >>>> As I >>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their >>>> >>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so >>>> >>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the >>>> government pays. >>>> And, as >>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the >>>> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to >>>> support the >>>> >>>> 70, >>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who >>>> somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that >>>> >>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. >>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me >>>> >>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply >>>> to >>>> everybody in the employment market, full stop. >>>> >>>> Sean >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. >>> fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.c >>> om >> >> >> -- >> Bill Casson >> University of New Mexico >> M.S. Computer Science >> Lewis& Clark Alumnus '11 >> B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci. >> (505) 695-1374 >> cassonw at gmail.com >> >> Follow me on Twitter @dandrews920 From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 22:08:44 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:08:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> References: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <003301cd4e68$18dd3d10$4a97b730$@gmail.com> Hi Ty, Welcome to the list! I remember you from the ACBS list, when I was on it, and I'm sure you will be a great addition to the discussions here as well! A lot of us are NFB members, including myself; after all, this list is run by the NFB's student division. However, I think a lot of us have open minds, and I'm glad to see one more open-minded person here in you. Again, welcome to the list! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 1:06 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself Hello all: My name is Ty, and I am relatively new to the list. I am a member of ACBS; I am in fact the webmaster. I know a lot of people kind of go for one over the other, but I like to stay somewhere in the middle; I think both organizations do good, and that's what I like to see. I figured this would come up from anyone who knew me as the webmaster, so I wanted to get it out of the way. I live in Colorado, and am currently working on a degree in computer science with an emphasis on security. In my free time, I enjoy reading, music, carving and I do a lot of technology related stuff; I have had experience with numerous programming languages, Windows, Linux and OSX. I have an awesome yellow lab guide dog, whose name is O'Mally. I received him from GDB in early August of 2011. I think that's basically it for me. I look forward to contributing and reading the discussions on list. -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 22:11:08 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:11:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 In-Reply-To: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7E3480@SN2PRD0510MB360.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7E3480@SN2PRD0510MB360.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <003401cd4e68$6e501600$4af04200$@gmail.com> Hi Justin, Thank you for putting this call together! As someone who was on the call, I believe it was a very informative and inspirational one! Thank you once again for putting together a great membership call! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Salisbury Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:32 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 On behalf of the North Carolina Association of Blind Students, I wish to thank those who participated in the conference call tonight to discuss the Goodwill boycott and the broader issues of subminimum wages and the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. As expected, Anil Lewis was extremely helpful, informative, and inspirational. The contributions of students outside North Carolina was quite significant, and you all truly enhanced our call. Justin Salisbury President North Carolina Association of Blind Students Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -MARGARET MEAD _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 22:15:27 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:15:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Fundraiser - Handmade Slate Cases In-Reply-To: <2EB9D5F5-503B-4065-B94A-80249AE851ED@gmail.com> References: <2EB9D5F5-503B-4065-B94A-80249AE851ED@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003c01cd4e69$0918df50$1b4a9df0$@gmail.com> Hi Dominique, How do I preorder? Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Domonique Lawless Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 10:50 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Fundraiser - Handmade Slate Cases Slate cases are handy, for they keep your stylus and slate from becoming buried or poking holes in your purse, briefcase or backpack. NABS is pleased to offer you stylish, compact, and affordable slate cases! In partnership with Stitchville of Ruston, Louisiana, NABS has designed and manufactured trendy, handmade slate cases made from cotton with a durable, interior lining. They fit a standard 28-cell slate and have a pocket for a stylus. The cases have a velcro closure to prevent loss of any of your slating supplies. They also come with grommets (reinforced holes) so you can easily stow your slate case in a 3-ring binder. There are currently five patterns to choose from. Black with white trim. If you are interested in a more monochrome look, than this is the case for you. Argyle: This is a diamond pattern. The colors in this pattern are blue, brown, turquoise, pink, green, red, orange, and white. Brown with polkadots. The background of this fabric is chocolate brown and it is covered with an assortment of light colors. Floral pattern. This fabric is white with red leaves and black curling vines. Lime green with chairs.. The background is lime green and printed across the fabric are all sorts of chairs. Almost all of the chairs are white but every once and a while you'll find a blue one. NABS is selling these cases for $15. If you are interested in purchasing one please email dlawless86 at gmail.com. Because this is a new product, custom-designed for students, we will be drop-shipping these cases as they become available. Pre-orders are highly likely (albeit not guaranteed) to be for pickup in the exhibit hall. While we will take orders in the exhibit hall at convention, we encourage you to take advantage of the free shipping for pre-orders! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 22:30:31 2012 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cynthia Bennett) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:30:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Fundraiser - Handmade Slate Cases In-Reply-To: <003c01cd4e69$0918df50$1b4a9df0$@gmail.com> References: <2EB9D5F5-503B-4065-B94A-80249AE851ED@gmail.com> <003c01cd4e69$0918df50$1b4a9df0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Email Domonique at dlawless86 at gmail.com and she will tell you what information she needs to preorder. I would include the preliminary things like name, phone number, email, and of course the design you want just to save back and forth. Cindy On 6/19/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Dominique, > > How do I preorder? > > Thanks, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Domonique Lawless > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 10:50 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Fundraiser - Handmade Slate Cases > > Slate cases are handy, for they keep your stylus and slate from becoming > buried or poking holes in your purse, briefcase or backpack. NABS is > pleased > to offer you stylish, compact, and affordable slate cases! In partnership > with Stitchville of Ruston, Louisiana, NABS has designed and manufactured > trendy, handmade slate cases made from cotton with a durable, interior > lining. They fit a standard 28-cell slate and have a pocket for a stylus. > The cases have a velcro closure to prevent loss of any of your slating > supplies. They also come with grommets (reinforced holes) so you can easily > stow your slate case in a 3-ring binder. > There are currently five patterns to choose from. > Black with white trim. If you are interested in a more monochrome look, > than > this is the case for you. > Argyle: This is a diamond pattern. The colors in this pattern are blue, > brown, turquoise, pink, green, red, orange, and white. > Brown with polkadots. The background of this fabric is chocolate brown and > it is covered with an assortment of light colors. > Floral pattern. This fabric is white with red leaves and black curling > vines. > Lime green with chairs.. The background is lime green and printed across > the > fabric are all sorts of chairs. Almost all of the chairs are white but > every > once and a while you'll find a blue one. > > NABS is selling these cases for $15. If you are interested in > purchasing one please email dlawless86 at gmail.com. Because this is a new > product, custom-designed for students, we will be drop-shipping these cases > as they become available. Pre-orders are highly likely (albeit not > guaranteed) to be for pickup in the exhibit hall. While we will take orders > in the exhibit hall at convention, we encourage you to take advantage of > the > free shipping for pre-orders! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cynthia Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 23:47:43 2012 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:47:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Fundraiser - Handmade Slate Cases In-Reply-To: References: <2EB9D5F5-503B-4065-B94A-80249AE851ED@gmail.com><003c01cd4e69$0918df50$1b4a9df0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Since I will not be attending convention may I still pre-order? Thanks -----Original Message----- From: Cynthia Bennett Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 6:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS Fundraiser - Handmade Slate Cases Email Domonique at dlawless86 at gmail.com and she will tell you what information she needs to preorder. I would include the preliminary things like name, phone number, email, and of course the design you want just to save back and forth. Cindy On 6/19/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Dominique, > > How do I preorder? > > Thanks, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Domonique Lawless > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 10:50 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Fundraiser - Handmade Slate Cases > > Slate cases are handy, for they keep your stylus and slate from becoming > buried or poking holes in your purse, briefcase or backpack. NABS is > pleased > to offer you stylish, compact, and affordable slate cases! In partnership > with Stitchville of Ruston, Louisiana, NABS has designed and manufactured > trendy, handmade slate cases made from cotton with a durable, interior > lining. They fit a standard 28-cell slate and have a pocket for a stylus. > The cases have a velcro closure to prevent loss of any of your slating > supplies. They also come with grommets (reinforced holes) so you can > easily > stow your slate case in a 3-ring binder. > There are currently five patterns to choose from. > Black with white trim. If you are interested in a more monochrome look, > than > this is the case for you. > Argyle: This is a diamond pattern. The colors in this pattern are blue, > brown, turquoise, pink, green, red, orange, and white. > Brown with polkadots. The background of this fabric is chocolate brown and > it is covered with an assortment of light colors. > Floral pattern. This fabric is white with red leaves and black curling > vines. > Lime green with chairs.. The background is lime green and printed across > the > fabric are all sorts of chairs. Almost all of the chairs are white but > every > once and a while you'll find a blue one. > > NABS is selling these cases for $15. If you are interested in > purchasing one please email dlawless86 at gmail.com. Because this is a new > product, custom-designed for students, we will be drop-shipping these > cases > as they become available. Pre-orders are highly likely (albeit not > guaranteed) to be for pickup in the exhibit hall. While we will take > orders > in the exhibit hall at convention, we encourage you to take advantage of > the > free shipping for pre-orders! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cynthia Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com Anjelina From bb131993 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 01:04:45 2012 From: bb131993 at yahoo.com (Bethany Bennington) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:04:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: <003301cd4e68$18dd3d10$4a97b730$@gmail.com> References: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> <003301cd4e68$18dd3d10$4a97b730$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F991B24-97C7-4F6D-8861-6464DF45FF44@yahoo.com> Hey ty! As everyone else said, welcome to the NFB and this list. I am the president of the missouri association of blind students. Will you br at the national convention? If so the various nabs functions are always such a fun thing to attend. For myself and others welcome to the super cool and awesome friends/networking list out there:) i look forward to meeting you maybe sometime in the future. Take care! Bethany at missouri state university On Jun 19, 2012, at 5:08 PM, "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: > Hi Ty, > > Welcome to the list! I remember you from the ACBS list, when I was on it, > and I'm sure you will be a great addition to the discussions here as well! A > lot of us are NFB members, including myself; after all, this list is run by > the NFB's student division. However, I think a lot of us have open minds, > and I'm glad to see one more open-minded person here in you. Again, welcome > to the list! > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 1:06 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself > > Hello all: > My name is Ty, and I am relatively new to the list. I am a member of ACBS; I > am in fact the webmaster. I know a lot of people kind of go for one over the > other, but I like to stay somewhere in the middle; I think both > organizations do good, and that's what I like to see. I figured this would > come up from anyone who knew me as the webmaster, so I wanted to get it out > of the way. > > I live in Colorado, and am currently working on a degree in computer science > with an emphasis on security. In my free time, I enjoy reading, music, > carving and I do a lot of technology related stuff; I have had experience > with numerous programming languages, Windows, Linux and OSX. > > I have an awesome yellow lab guide dog, whose name is O'Mally. I received > him from GDB in early August of 2011. > > I think that's basically it for me. I look forward to contributing and > reading the discussions on list. > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bb131993%40yahoo.com From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 05:00:02 2012 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (The Nabs Membership Committee) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: <20120620050002.313CB19CC6B@praecipua.dreamhost.com> Greetings! This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. Title: Navigating The Airport Tips And Tricks For Cane And Dog Users Alike Description: On Part1 of the June 2012 Nabs call, a wonderful presentation is given on some useful information on navigating the airport with a cane or guide dog. Whether you're going to national convention or taking a trip to visit a friend, these tips will make it easier for you to navigate the airport, from going through security through flying, so that you can be a more confident traveler in this situation. You can download the show directly at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/June2012Airport.mp3 Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations to hear some of the other calls we've done. Best regards, David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee http://www.nabslinkaudio.org http://www.nabslink.org From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 05:00:01 2012 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (The Nabs Membership Committee) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: <20120620050001.64F5619CC83@praecipua.dreamhost.com> Greetings! This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. Title: Convention Information And Other Things You'll Want To Know Description: The National Association Of Blind Students is very active at convention, and this year is no acception. From the gathering in the affiliate action suite to the business meeting and even Monti Carlo night, Nabs has lots going on, and we need your help to make it a smoother event for all. Listen as Darian and others chime in with info on the events and how you can be involved if you're attending this year's national convention in Dallas Texas. You can download the show directly at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/June2012Convention.mp3 Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations to hear some of the other calls we've done. Best regards, David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee http://www.nabslinkaudio.org http://www.nabslink.org From tyler at tysdomain.com Wed Jun 20 05:15:17 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 23:15:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download In-Reply-To: <20120620050002.313CB19CC6B@praecipua.dreamhost.com> References: <20120620050002.313CB19CC6B@praecipua.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <4FE15C65.1050104@tysdomain.com> Hello: I was just wondering, is it always the same person that leads these calls? On 6/19/2012 11:00 PM, The Nabs Membership Committee wrote: > Greetings! > This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. > > Title: Navigating The Airport Tips And Tricks For Cane And Dog Users Alike > Description: On Part1 of the June 2012 Nabs call, a wonderful presentation is given on some useful information on navigating the airport with a cane or guide dog. Whether you're going to national convention or taking a trip to visit a friend, these tips will make it easier for you to navigate the airport, from going through security through flying, so that you can be a more confident traveler in this situation. > > > You can download the show directly at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/June2012Airport.mp3 > > Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations > to hear some of the other calls we've done. > Best regards, > David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org > http://www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 06:16:36 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 23:16:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download In-Reply-To: <4FE15C65.1050104@tysdomain.com> References: <20120620050002.313CB19CC6B@praecipua.dreamhost.com> <4FE15C65.1050104@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hello Tyler, No, it is not always the same person leading the nabs membership calls. Depending on the month, there are other members of the committee who you may find leading a call. Thanks, Darian On 6/19/12, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Hello: > I was just wondering, is it always the same person that leads these calls? > On 6/19/2012 11:00 PM, The Nabs Membership Committee wrote: >> Greetings! >> This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest >> conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. >> >> Title: Navigating The Airport Tips And Tricks For Cane And Dog Users >> Alike >> Description: On Part1 of the June 2012 Nabs call, a wonderful presentation >> is given on some useful information on navigating the airport with a cane >> or guide dog. Whether you're going to national convention or taking a trip >> to visit a friend, these tips will make it easier for you to navigate the >> airport, from going through security through flying, so that you can be a >> more confident traveler in this situation. >> >> >> You can download the show directly at: >> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/June2012Airport.mp3 >> >> Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: >> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations >> to hear some of the other calls we've done. >> Best regards, >> David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee >> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org >> http://www.nabslink.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Wed Jun 20 13:30:06 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 09:30:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 In-Reply-To: <003401cd4e68$6e501600$4af04200$@gmail.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7E3480@SN2PRD0510MB360.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <003401cd4e68$6e501600$4af04200$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AD5@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> I agree with Chris. Its important that we discuss current issues in an open forum like that, especially when they are hot. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 6:11 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Hi Justin, Thank you for putting this call together! As someone who was on the call, I believe it was a very informative and inspirational one! Thank you once again for putting together a great membership call! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Salisbury Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:32 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 On behalf of the North Carolina Association of Blind Students, I wish to thank those who participated in the conference call tonight to discuss the Goodwill boycott and the broader issues of subminimum wages and the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. As expected, Anil Lewis was extremely helpful, informative, and inspirational. The contributions of students outside North Carolina was quite significant, and you all truly enhanced our call. Justin Salisbury President North Carolina Association of Blind Students Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -MARGARET MEAD _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org From tyler at tysdomain.com Wed Jun 20 13:48:55 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 07:48:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download In-Reply-To: References: <20120620050002.313CB19CC6B@praecipua.dreamhost.com> <4FE15C65.1050104@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <4FE1D4C7.1010603@tysdomain.com> That's cool, I was not sure how nabs worked/who lead and all that, thanks! On 6/20/2012 12:16 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > Hello Tyler, > No, it is not always the same person leading the nabs membership > calls. Depending on the month, there are other members of the > committee who you may find leading a call. > Thanks, > Darian > > On 6/19/12, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >> Hello: >> I was just wondering, is it always the same person that leads these calls? >> On 6/19/2012 11:00 PM, The Nabs Membership Committee wrote: >>> Greetings! >>> This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest >>> conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. >>> >>> Title: Navigating The Airport Tips And Tricks For Cane And Dog Users >>> Alike >>> Description: On Part1 of the June 2012 Nabs call, a wonderful presentation >>> is given on some useful information on navigating the airport with a cane >>> or guide dog. Whether you're going to national convention or taking a trip >>> to visit a friend, these tips will make it easier for you to navigate the >>> airport, from going through security through flying, so that you can be a >>> more confident traveler in this situation. >>> >>> >>> You can download the show directly at: >>> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/June2012Airport.mp3 >>> >>> Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: >>> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations >>> to hear some of the other calls we've done. >>> Best regards, >>> David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee >>> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org >>> http://www.nabslink.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu Wed Jun 20 18:38:13 2012 From: PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu (Justin Salisbury) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:38:13 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Discussing the Goodwill Boycott on Other Lists Message-ID: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7F087C@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> When North Carolina ABS held its call with Anil Lewis, one thing he urged all students to do is keep this discussion going on other lists, too. He said that we have been leaders in discussing the boycott on this list and that very few other lists are discussing it. By discussing these topics, we come to understand them more fully and learn where the information gaps lie. When we hear new arguments and questions, we figure out new ways to address them and the issues behind them. Let's all be vocal on our other email lists about the Goodwill boycott, HR 3086, and subminimum wages! Justin Salisbury Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 18:56:47 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 14:56:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [nfb-talk] A Comment On Braille References: <8361D9F3-7EBD-4EB5-B96F-79FB574A48AA@brannan.name> Message-ID: <0B3163C6-749C-4D05-BEFC-966943FAF024@gmail.com> Sent from my iPod Begin forwarded message: > From: Buddy Brannan > Date: June 20, 2012 1:50:38 PM EDT > To: NFB Talk Mailing List , "nfbp-talk at yahoogroups.com" > Subject: [nfb-talk] A Comment On Braille > Reply-To: NFB Talk Mailing List > > Perkins just asked in an Email they sent out if braille is still relent in a high tech world. They said the answer was a resounding yes, as it should be, but here's my response, which i sent to perkins and posted to my blog: > > Hi, > > First, do I love my Perkins brailler? Of course I do. > > I don't really want to talk about that, though. Rather, I want to address the question you ask: is braille still relevant in a technological world? Of course you got the answer, and, in my view, the correct one, but what disturbs me is that the question was even asked in thee first place. It is, I think, the wrong question. In short, what happens if you replace the word "Braille" with the word "Print"? Does the question change? Does the relevance of the medium change? Does the answer change? What about the perceptions of the question--do those change? > > A couple weeks ago, I was a fill-in host on the Serotek podcast, where we discussed an article about the decline in spelling skills among today's youth. However, I didn't take away what was probably the intended message of the article. I took away a double standard. Now that it's sighted children who use print and are losing the ability to spell, form proper sentences, and so on, we have a tragedy, and our electronics-centric lifestyle is to blame. Think of texting as the most often blamed culprit. Yet, where was this outcry for our blind kids 20 years ago, when, as now, we are told that talking computers and recorded textbooks are good enough? Double standard much? Why is it, do you suppose, that learning to read print and having access to print is essential to teach sighted children the fundamentals of grammar, spelling, and punctuation, but such skills are adequately taught to our blind kids with talking computers and recorded textbooks? Or, is it that our blind kids and their skills and abilities in these areas just aren't important enough to give the same amount of attention or priority? Why is, pulling a number out of the air here, a 10% illiteracy rate among the sighted a national tragedy, yet a 10% literacy rate among the blind acceptable? > > If you get that I'm angry, you're right. I am absolutely livid. This is only one example of this double standard where blind and sighted people are concerned. The thing is, it's a huge example, and it doesn't even seem as though we ourselves always recognize it for what it is, because we ask things like, "Is braille still relevant". So long as literacy is relevant to gainful employment, career advancement, educational opportunities, and all the other things life has to offer, the answer should be obvious. > > So, as I said, you're asking the wrong question. There are probably a lot of "right" questions, but the one that comes to my mind, putting aside the "Why is this double standard acceptable" question, is, "How do we get braille into the hands of more kids and get more of our kids learning it, and more of our teachers teaching it"? Let's start there; there's much, much more that we should be asking as follow-ups to that. > > Parenthetically, I note that the word "brailler" was flagged by my spell checker. Moreover, it was autocorrected to "broiler". That speaks volumes. > -- > Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA > Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nfb-talk mailing list > nfb-talk at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfb-talk: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 00:58:23 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:58:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AD5@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7E3480@SN2PRD0510MB360.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <003401cd4e68$6e501600$4af04200$@gmail.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AD5@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <007201cd4f48$f66c8880$e3459980$@gmail.com> Hi Zanaira, Were you on the call on Monday? Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 I agree with Chris. Its important that we discuss current issues in an open forum like that, especially when they are hot. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 6:11 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Hi Justin, Thank you for putting this call together! As someone who was on the call, I believe it was a very informative and inspirational one! Thank you once again for putting together a great membership call! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Salisbury Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:32 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 On behalf of the North Carolina Association of Blind Students, I wish to thank those who participated in the conference call tonight to discuss the Goodwill boycott and the broader issues of subminimum wages and the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. As expected, Anil Lewis was extremely helpful, informative, and inspirational. The contributions of students outside North Carolina was quite significant, and you all truly enhanced our call. Justin Salisbury President North Carolina Association of Blind Students Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -MARGARET MEAD _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 01:17:10 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:17:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: NVDA screen reader News: High-Quality voices available for NVDA! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008301cd4f4b$965e0ce0$c31a26a0$@gmail.com> Please note, prices below are not in U.S. Dollars -----Original Message----- From: nvda-announce-bounces at lists.nvaccess.org [mailto:nvda-announce-bounces at lists.nvaccess.org] On Behalf Of NVDA announcement list Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 5:56 PM To: nvda-announce at lists.nvaccess.org Subject: NVDA screen reader News: High-Quality voices available for NVDA! NV Access is very happy to announce the availability of the Nuance Vocalizer range of voices for NVDA. These voices, which have proven to be popular on iPhones and the Mac, can now all be purchased for one affordable price for use with NVDA. Whether you use NVDA installed on one computer, or carry it around with you for access at anytime on a USB flash drive, these performant and high-quality voices will be there when you need them. Purchasing Vocalizer today for 75 EUR gives you access to over 50 different voices covering more than 30 major languages. Vocalizer can be purchased world-wide from Tiflotecnia Lda. For each purchase 15 EUR will be donated to NV Access to help the NVDA project continue. Purchases can also be made through a range of local distributors, of which 10 EUR will be donated to the project. For more information about Vocalizer with NVDA, trial downloads and a list of distributors, please visit http://www.vocalizer-nvda.com/en. To use Vocalizer, NVDA 2012.2 or higher is required. Please visit http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/Download to grab the latest version if you have not done so already. Please consider donating to NV Access to support NVDA's continued development: http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate -- This is the NVDA announcement mailing list. To unsubscribe or edit your options, please visit: http://lists.nvaccess.org/listinfo/nvda-announce From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Thu Jun 21 12:13:13 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 08:13:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 In-Reply-To: <007201cd4f48$f66c8880$e3459980$@gmail.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7E3480@SN2PRD0510MB360.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <003401cd4e68$6e501600$4af04200$@gmail.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AD5@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <007201cd4f48$f66c8880$e3459980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817ADE@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Yes- I came in towards the middle, right before the question and answer session. Zunaira -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 8:58 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Hi Zanaira, Were you on the call on Monday? Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 I agree with Chris. Its important that we discuss current issues in an open forum like that, especially when they are hot. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 6:11 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Hi Justin, Thank you for putting this call together! As someone who was on the call, I believe it was a very informative and inspirational one! Thank you once again for putting together a great membership call! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Salisbury Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:32 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 On behalf of the North Carolina Association of Blind Students, I wish to thank those who participated in the conference call tonight to discuss the Goodwill boycott and the broader issues of subminimum wages and the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. As expected, Anil Lewis was extremely helpful, informative, and inspirational. The contributions of students outside North Carolina was quite significant, and you all truly enhanced our call. Justin Salisbury President North Carolina Association of Blind Students Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -MARGARET MEAD _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 16:21:08 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:21:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 In-Reply-To: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817ADE@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7E3480@SN2PRD0510MB360.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <003401cd4e68$6e501600$4af04200$@gmail.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AD5@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <007201cd4f48$f66c8880$e3459980$@gmail.com> <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817ADE@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> Message-ID: <000001cd4fc9$e2b92e20$a82b8a60$@gmail.com> Hi Zanaira, Oh, OK. I think you were the rehab counselor from Florida who was asking Anil some questions, if I'm not mistaken. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 8:13 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Yes- I came in towards the middle, right before the question and answer session. Zunaira -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 8:58 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Hi Zanaira, Were you on the call on Monday? Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 I agree with Chris. Its important that we discuss current issues in an open forum like that, especially when they are hot. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 6:11 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Hi Justin, Thank you for putting this call together! As someone who was on the call, I believe it was a very informative and inspirational one! Thank you once again for putting together a great membership call! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Salisbury Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:32 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 On behalf of the North Carolina Association of Blind Students, I wish to thank those who participated in the conference call tonight to discuss the Goodwill boycott and the broader issues of subminimum wages and the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. As expected, Anil Lewis was extremely helpful, informative, and inspirational. The contributions of students outside North Carolina was quite significant, and you all truly enhanced our call. Justin Salisbury President North Carolina Association of Blind Students Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -MARGARET MEAD _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Thu Jun 21 20:50:52 2012 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 16:50:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 In-Reply-To: <000001cd4fc9$e2b92e20$a82b8a60$@gmail.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7E3480@SN2PRD0510MB360.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <003401cd4e68$6e501600$4af04200$@gmail.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AD5@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <007201cd4f48$f66c8880$e3459980$@gmail.com><2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817ADE@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> <000001cd4fc9$e2b92e20$a82b8a60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D01309C2F5D5C4C93CC5DE084807DF207817AE5@DBSSOEXCHANGE.fldbs.net> You got it. I remember you. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 12:21 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Hi Zanaira, Oh, OK. I think you were the rehab counselor from Florida who was asking Anil some questions, if I'm not mistaken. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 8:13 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Yes- I came in towards the middle, right before the question and answer session. Zunaira -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 8:58 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Hi Zanaira, Were you on the call on Monday? Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 I agree with Chris. Its important that we discuss current issues in an open forum like that, especially when they are hot. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 6:11 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 Hi Justin, Thank you for putting this call together! As someone who was on the call, I believe it was a very informative and inspirational one! Thank you once again for putting together a great membership call! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Salisbury Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 11:32 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Call on Boycott and HR 3086 On behalf of the North Carolina Association of Blind Students, I wish to thank those who participated in the conference call tonight to discuss the Goodwill boycott and the broader issues of subminimum wages and the Fair Wages for Workers with Disabilities Act. As expected, Anil Lewis was extremely helpful, informative, and inspirational. The contributions of students outside North Carolina was quite significant, and you all truly enhanced our call. Justin Salisbury President North Carolina Association of Blind Students Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -MARGARET MEAD _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs. fldoe.org From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Jun 21 22:03:41 2012 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 16:03:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Colorado Amazing Travel Raffle Now On Line Message-ID: <053201cd4ff9$bc12eba0$3438c2e0$@labarrelaw.com> Greetings my fellow Federationists: As announced earlier, the NFB of Colorado is holding an amazing travel raffle. One winner will receive a $3500.00 travel certificate which can be used for any travel service purchased through our travel agency. You can use the certificate all at once for the dream vacation. You can break it up over time using it for air fares or hotels booked through the agency. The cost of the ticket is $10 for one and $20 will get you three tickets. Of course, you can purchase more than $10 or $20 worth of tickets. If, for example, you give the NFB of Colorado $40, you will receive six tickets. If your give us $30, you will receive four tickets. The winning ticket will be drawn at our NFB Colorado 58th Annual State Convention during the banquet on the evening of October 27, 2012. The winner need not be present. We will be selling these tickets at this year's national convention at the NFB Colorado table in the exhibit hall and elsewhere and everywhere throughout the Convention. Additionally, we now can announce that you may purchase these tickets on line through our website at www.nfbco.org and click on "vacation travel raffle" right on our home page. The on line option will allow you either to make an immediate on line purchase and the tickets will be sent to you or allow you to get a form and fill it out in which case the tickets will be sent once the form and payment are received. Don't miss out on this tremendous opportunity! Proceeds from the raffle will help to fund our BELL and NFB Colorado Scholarship Programs. If you have any questions or need help making a purchase, please contact my assistant, Lisa Bonderson at lbonderson at labarrelaw.com or 303 504-5979. Good luck and hope to see most of you at Convention! With tickets in hand and ready to sell, Scott C. LaBarre, President National Federation of the Blind of Colorado From dandrews at visi.com Fri Jun 22 02:43:17 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 21:43:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Seeking Good Volunteer Typists for Convention Assistance Message-ID: We are seeking good typists to facilitate access for a deaf-blind law student who will be attending the national convention. Prior experience with real-time transcription services or deaf-blind communication is not necessary. Typists would use a standard QWERTY keyboard that would be wirelessly connected to a BrailleNote. Some multi-tasking is required for typists because they would need to be able to listen to a speaker and type at the same time. We are looking for several good typists to provide transcription support throughout the convention. If you are willing to help, please contact Beth Braun at bbraun at nfb.org or by calling 410-659-9314 ex. 2369. Thank you for your consideration. Thanks, Beth Beth Braun Assistant to the Executive Director, Jernigan Institute NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 Phone: (410) 659-9314 ext. 2369 Fax: (410) 659-5129 Email: bbraun at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org From dandrews at visi.com Fri Jun 22 02:47:35 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 21:47:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] O&M Instructor Sacramento Message-ID: Job Title: Orientation & Mobility Instructor II Classification: Non-Exempt/Full-Time Reports to: Daily Living Skills Team Lead Society for the Blind is currently seeking qualified candidates to fill a position of Orientation & Mobility Instructor II. Our mission is to empower individuals who are blind or have low vision to live productively and independently by building confidence through training, tools and mentorship. Society for the Blind is a 501c3 organization serving Northern California, with a focus on Sacramento, Placer and Yolo counties. General Description: The essential function of the job is to teach clients how to maneuver and utilize Orientation & Mobility aids, methods and services intended to assist in the development of the client's independence and personal skills. Duties: Instruction: 1. Provide instruction in Orientation & Mobility to clients using the standard methods and techniques of the long cane. 2. Instruct clients in the use of certified low vision and electric mobility aids. 3. Provide instruction in problem solving, direction finding and structured discovery of the travel environment. 4. Orient clients to their physical environment through maximum development and utilization of their remaining senses. 5. Conduct training on city streets. Instruction is to include, but not limited to the use of public transportation, escalators, elevators, revolving doors and other features found in traveling. 6. Prepare tactual and auditory maps and instruct clients in their proper use. * Evaluate clients' functional, physical and mental capabilities, as related to mobility and orientation. * Determine individual clients' need for physical conditioning. * Stay current in areas of responsibility. * Address and conduct workshops for interested groups as requested. Documentation 1. Maintain thorough, complete and timely ongoing weekly and monthly record keeping of client services; including, but not limited to case notes, lesson notes, evaluations, progress reports, and correspondence. Team building and Networking * Present client issues to supervisor and contribute to ongoing problem solving of such issues while maintaining appropriate confidentiality. 2. Consult with other professionals, family members or other appropriate parties regarding the progress and problems of the clients. 3. Participate in individual case conferences and confer regularly with program staff on multi-disciplinary service team concerning client's program and adjustment to blindness or vision loss. * Maintain positive and professional relations with counselors of Department of Rehabilitation and other agencies as well as Society clients, staff, and volunteers. * Coordinate effective client service with third-party counselors, such as Department of Rehabilitation. Other Duties: * Attend all staff and department meetings * Adhere to all Society policies and procedures * Obtain training to enhance job requirements * Other duties as required Qualifications: 1. A minimum of two years working experience. * Master's Degree in appropriate field. * Applicants must be graduates from either: AER-certified institutions or O&M programs sponsored by the U.S. Rehabilitation Services Administration (RSA). * Certification/certifiability from one of RSA approved certifying bodies required * Excellent writing skills- English grammar and usage. * Excellent verbal communication skills. * Good computer skills. MS Office programs- Word, Excel, Outlook & Internet Explorer. To Apply Submit cover letter and resume by email to Diane Starin, Daily Living Skills Team Lead at dstarin at societyfortheblind.org Application's deadline: Until the position is filled. NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE! From dandrews at visi.com Fri Jun 22 02:50:26 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 21:50:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Video Description Focus Group Message-ID: Video Description Focus Group The NFB Jernigan Institute is collaborating with The Smith-Kettlewell Video Description Research and Development Center to facilitate a focus group to discuss advanced concepts in video description. The focus group will meet on Sunday, July 1 from 1:00-4:00 p.m. in the Madrid Room, Tower mezzanine. If you are interested in participating in this focus group please e-mail Beth Braun at bbraun at nfb.org and include the following information: cell phone number, whether or not you are blind, a short paragraph describing why you would like to be part of the focus group, and indicate which of the following classifications you fit into (more than one may apply): Undergraduate Student, Graduate Student, Teacher of Blind Students, Rehabilitation Professional, Educator (not working with blind students), Parent of a Blind Child, Consumer of Video Description, Professional (not working in blindness or education field). If e-mailing is not convenient, please call Beth at (410) 659-9314 ext. 2369. There is limited space in this session, and participants must pre-register to be able to participate. Thanks, Beth Beth Braun Assistant to the Executive Director, Jernigan Institute NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 Phone: (410) 659-9314 ext. 2369 Fax: (410) 659-5129 Email: bbraun at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org From dandrews at visi.com Fri Jun 22 02:52:29 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 21:52:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: NVDA screen reader News: High-Quality voices available for NVDA! Message-ID: > >NV Access is very happy to announce the availability of the Nuance >Vocalizer range of voices for NVDA. These voices, which have proven >to be popular on iPhones and the Mac, can now all be purchased for >one affordable price for use with NVDA. Whether you use NVDA >installed on one computer, or carry it around with you for access at >anytime on a USB flash drive, these performant and high-quality >voices will be there when you need them. > >Purchasing Vocalizer today for 75 EUR gives you access to over 50 >different voices covering more than 30 major languages. > >Vocalizer can be purchased world-wide from Tiflotecnia Lda. For >each purchase 15 EUR will be donated to NV Access to help the NVDA >project continue. Purchases can also be made through a range of >local distributors, of which 10 EUR will be donated to the project. >For more information about Vocalizer with NVDA, trial downloads and >a list of distributors, please visit http://www.vocalizer-nvda.com/en. > >To use Vocalizer, NVDA 2012.2 or higher is required. Please visit >http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/Download to grab the latest version >if you have not done so already. > >Please consider donating to NV Access to support NVDA's continued development: >http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate > >-- >This is the NVDA announcement mailing list. From warren.mercy at hotmail.com Fri Jun 22 14:47:41 2012 From: warren.mercy at hotmail.com (Candice Chapman) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 09:47:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Mississippi State University Mentoring Project Message-ID: When I started the process of deciding what I wanted to be when I grow up, I had to do a lot of research to find the career that would fit me the best. After a lot of trial and error, I finally decided that I wanted to be a high school guidance counselor. Once I came to this conclusion, my work still wasn't done. I had to figure out how to get from point A (deciding on my career) to point B (finishing requirements to achieve my career goal). Fortunately I had a few people who had already been down this path before me and were able to assist me as I traveled, and continue to travel, the road to becoming a guidance counselor. As I continue my journey, I'm fortunate to have several mentors who are there to answer questions and provide assistance crossing the next hurdle to get to my ultimate goal. I was lucky enough acquire these mentors along the way, but you don't have to depend on luck if you're looking for a mentor that has already established in the career that you've decided to pursue. The National Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision is starting a mentoring program that will pair students with career mentors. The goal of this program is to provide not only a role model in the field of your choice, but also someone who can help you reach your goals, goals that they once had themselves. If you're interested in the program please contact Jamie O'Mally. Her contact information is included on the flyer that is attached to this email. Jamie will also be attending National Convention. She'll be speaking at the NABS Business Meeting and will be around to answer any questions that you may have in person. Again, for Jamie's contact information see the attached flyer. Warmest regards, Candice Chapman -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mentoring Recruitment Flyer 2012-06-15.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 36085 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 22 17:38:17 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 13:38:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Message-ID: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC> Hi all, Where do you download NVDA? Are there tutorials to learn to use it? Also, how does it compare with paid screen readers such as jaws? Does it read the internet just as well? I’m thinking of downloading it if I volunteer somewhere. Thanks. Ashley From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Jun 22 17:42:35 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:42:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers In-Reply-To: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC> References: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC> Message-ID: http://www.nvda-project.org Blessings, Joshua On 6/22/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > Where do you download NVDA? Are there tutorials to learn to use it? > Also, how does it compare with paid screen readers such as jaws? Does it > read the internet just as well? > > I’m thinking of downloading it if I volunteer somewhere. > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 18:05:59 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:05:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers In-Reply-To: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC> References: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <001c01cd50a1$afd9b690$0f8d23b0$@gmail.com> Hi Ashley, As Joshua said, you can download NVDA from www.nvda-project.org. You might also want to check out mainmenu.acbradio.org. The Main Menu team put together a comprehensive ZIP file which includes the NVDA screen reader itself along with a lot of tutorials on how to use it. As for comparisons, I can't really speak to that. I did download NVDA as a backup screen reader in case JAWS didn't work for something. However, after a couple weeks of using it, I didn't really like it and uninstalled it. I don't know if this was just a matter of my inexperience with using NVDA and my experience with using JAWS or if it's just that JAWS is a better screen reader, but I'll leave that up to more experienced NVDA users to decide. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi all, Where do you download NVDA? Are there tutorials to learn to use it? Also, how does it compare with paid screen readers such as jaws? Does it read the internet just as well? I’m thinking of downloading it if I volunteer somewhere. Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 22 18:32:43 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:32:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers In-Reply-To: <001c01cd50a1$afd9b690$0f8d23b0$@gmail.com> References: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC> <001c01cd50a1$afd9b690$0f8d23b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3A2FF18D17274DE493F0F44F9E439CF0@OwnerPC> Hi all, I wonder what other free voices are out there? I'm concerned I won't understand the british accent of the Espeak voice. Also how do you turn NVDA off and do you use the numeric keypad for reading commands? Do you press insert up and down arrow to read current and say all lines? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 2:05 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi Ashley, As Joshua said, you can download NVDA from www.nvda-project.org. You might also want to check out mainmenu.acbradio.org. The Main Menu team put together a comprehensive ZIP file which includes the NVDA screen reader itself along with a lot of tutorials on how to use it. As for comparisons, I can't really speak to that. I did download NVDA as a backup screen reader in case JAWS didn't work for something. However, after a couple weeks of using it, I didn't really like it and uninstalled it. I don't know if this was just a matter of my inexperience with using NVDA and my experience with using JAWS or if it's just that JAWS is a better screen reader, but I'll leave that up to more experienced NVDA users to decide. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi all, Where do you download NVDA? Are there tutorials to learn to use it? Also, how does it compare with paid screen readers such as jaws? Does it read the internet just as well? I’m thinking of downloading it if I volunteer somewhere. Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 19:48:24 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:48:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers In-Reply-To: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC> References: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <17876B3DCD4C4BF0A616FAE25F827DD2@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, NVDA is great, just like Jaws, just not supported as widely. It takes a little to get used to if you're used to Jaws, but it is really nice once you get the hang of it! Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 10:38 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi all, Where do you download NVDA? Are there tutorials to learn to use it? Also, how does it compare with paid screen readers such as jaws? Does it read the internet just as well? I’m thinking of downloading it if I volunteer somewhere. Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 19:50:33 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:50:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers In-Reply-To: <3A2FF18D17274DE493F0F44F9E439CF0@OwnerPC> References: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC><001c01cd50a1$afd9b690$0f8d23b0$@gmail.com> <3A2FF18D17274DE493F0F44F9E439CF0@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <399A311ED74C4EA8BE432F61F0367E4E@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, go to the NVDA menu and go to voices and change the synthesizer to SAPI. NVDA 12 also has support for some more voices I'm not sure about. I believe the read all command is the same with nvda as it is with Jaws, but I don't use it for reading all, so idk. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:32 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi all, I wonder what other free voices are out there? I'm concerned I won't understand the british accent of the Espeak voice. Also how do you turn NVDA off and do you use the numeric keypad for reading commands? Do you press insert up and down arrow to read current and say all lines? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 2:05 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi Ashley, As Joshua said, you can download NVDA from www.nvda-project.org. You might also want to check out mainmenu.acbradio.org. The Main Menu team put together a comprehensive ZIP file which includes the NVDA screen reader itself along with a lot of tutorials on how to use it. As for comparisons, I can't really speak to that. I did download NVDA as a backup screen reader in case JAWS didn't work for something. However, after a couple weeks of using it, I didn't really like it and uninstalled it. I don't know if this was just a matter of my inexperience with using NVDA and my experience with using JAWS or if it's just that JAWS is a better screen reader, but I'll leave that up to more experienced NVDA users to decide. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi all, Where do you download NVDA? Are there tutorials to learn to use it? Also, how does it compare with paid screen readers such as jaws? Does it read the internet just as well? I’m thinking of downloading it if I volunteer somewhere. Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From trillian551 at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 20:00:20 2012 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 16:00:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Let your voices be heard! Message-ID: Have you ever wanted to get the opportunity to ask questions of the candidates who run at NABS elections? Did you ever wish to clarify some points in your mind before casting the vote? If you have, then the NABS candidates forum is an event you can't afford to miss! The forum will be taking place on Wednesday June 27th at 8 PM. Please, please, please submit your questions so that our candidates are challenged during this epic event! To submit your questions visit http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FDFW5Q7 And to hear the responses to your thoughtful and insightful question, make sure to call in! Again the positions that will be participating are president, 2nd vice president and secretary! Let me know if you have questions. I would also add that we will not be taking questions during the call, so speak now! Yours -- Mary Fernandez Emory 2012 "A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes up her burdens and walks toward the future." -- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Jun 22 20:39:54 2012 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 15:39:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Megabus-Hilton Transportation Message-ID: <008401cd50b7$2ea365b0$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello everyone, Below is information for a transportation option between the Dallas Megabus stop and the Hilton Anatole Hotel for those attending the national convention. Mary and I researched this due to the fact that the Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) does not serve Grand Prairie where the Dallas-Fort Worth Area Megabus stop is currently located. The stop is at the Coach USA facility at 710 Davis Street in Grand Prairie. I was able to tentatively reserve a 14-passenger van to shuttle attendees to the Hilton Anatole on Friday June 29 returning to the Megabus stop on Friday July 6, 2012. The information listed below is pricing based on 8 or 10 passengers taking the van. Much will depend on the number of passengers needing to take the van and the amount of luggage everyone is bringing. Allen Limousine recommends that we not fill the van to seating capacity due to the amount of luggage to be transported. This will allow them to remove several seats to accommodate everyone's baggage and for large passengers to ride comfortably. We can have them send larger or additional vehicles if necessary. Below is pricing for the van which includes the total one-way and round-trip amounts plus the price per passenger based on 8 and 10 passengers: Allen Limousine: 14-Passenger Van: One-Way: $127.60 Round-Trip: $254.00\ Price Per Passenger: Based on 8 passengers) One-Way: $15.95 Round-Trip: $31.90 ( Based on 10 passengers One-Way: $12.70 Round-Trip: $25.40 If I'm able to negotiate a cheaper rate with another Limo company prior to departure I'll let everyone know. The rates per passenger quoted above are set amounts not guestimets as are those recently obtained from Dallas area cab companies and are for transportation to the Hilton Anatole and back to the Megabus stop. This is about half the amount of the cab fare particularly if each passenger pays for their own transportation. You will also have the option to pay for your transportation between the Megabus stop and the Hilton Anatole prior to leaving should you choose to do so. All Megabus runs between Dallas and San Antonio pick up and drop off passengers in Austin. Our bus will arrive in Dallas on June 29 at 3:30 p.m. To give everyone plenty of time to claim their baggage the van will leave the Megabus stop at 4:00 p.m. I'm recommending that we leave the Hilton Anatole on July 6 no later than noon. The Megabus for Austin and San Antonio will depart at 1:00p.m. If there are passengers needing to catch an earlier bus we can tweak the departure time from the Hilton Anatole. An 18% gratuity is recommended to let our drivers know how much we appreciate their service. This is not included in the above figures. If you can get your payments to us prior to leaving all the better. If you have PayPal you can make this payment using the following PayPal address: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com. Otherwise we'll collect it on the 29th. If any of you would only need to use the van one-way you can just pay half the amount. If there are other large groups arriving on Megabus from other parts of Texas and the country for the convention you can contact Allen Limousine to make your own arrangements. Their contact information is as follows: Allen Limousine, Inc. Phone: 972-747-0011 Fax: 972-692-7722 Email: Info at allenlimo.com Web site: http://www.allenlimo.com/ Their Web site is very accessible and easy to navigate. You should be able to complete their new account signup form, obtain quotes and reserve vehicles without any trouble. There are no captchas to tangle with. They have a variety of vehicles for charter to fulfill transportation needs of individuals and groups of all sizes. Additionally they have access to lift-equipped vehicles for passengers in wheelchairs. If you plan to use the van or just have questions or need assistance with finding transportation to the Hilton Anatole from the Megabus stop feel free to contact us at: Phone: (210) 826-9579 E-mail: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com It's hard to believe that the 2012 national convention is only a week away. We're looking forward to seeing everyone in Dallas and making this convention the best ever. All the best. Peter and Mary Donahue “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper.” Isaiah 54:17 “While for our princes they prepare In caverns deep a burning snare, He shot from heaven a piercing ray, And the dark treachery brought to day.” Anonymous From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Jun 22 21:04:13 2012 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 16:04:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Megabus Transportation Clarrification Message-ID: <000d01cd50ba$95016c50$9e010b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello again everyone, I neglected to mention but will do so now before the question comes up on list. This transportation initiative to assist Megabus passengers going to the convention to ride to the Hilton Anatole is something we ourselves are doing. This is not a project of the Texas Affiliate. We'll be bringing lots of stuff to the convention and needed a large vehicle to transport it to the hotel from the Megabus stop and felt it appropriate to invite others attending the convention to share the ride with us. All the best. Peter Donahue “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper.” Isaiah 54:17 “While for our princes they prepare In caverns deep a burning snare, He shot from heaven a piercing ray, And the dark treachery brought to day.” Anonymous From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 22 22:08:13 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:08:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers In-Reply-To: <399A311ED74C4EA8BE432F61F0367E4E@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC><001c01cd50a1$afd9b690$0f8d23b0$@gmail.com><3A2FF18D17274DE493F0F44F9E439CF0@OwnerPC> <399A311ED74C4EA8BE432F61F0367E4E@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <22383FD54B7045F8AA85E66F7D20D309@OwnerPC> Oh, that is how you change the voices. Good to know for when I install it. So, then it has more voices than espeak. What other voices are there? -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 3:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hello, go to the NVDA menu and go to voices and change the synthesizer to SAPI. NVDA 12 also has support for some more voices I'm not sure about. I believe the read all command is the same with nvda as it is with Jaws, but I don't use it for reading all, so idk. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:32 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi all, I wonder what other free voices are out there? I'm concerned I won't understand the british accent of the Espeak voice. Also how do you turn NVDA off and do you use the numeric keypad for reading commands? Do you press insert up and down arrow to read current and say all lines? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 2:05 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi Ashley, As Joshua said, you can download NVDA from www.nvda-project.org. You might also want to check out mainmenu.acbradio.org. The Main Menu team put together a comprehensive ZIP file which includes the NVDA screen reader itself along with a lot of tutorials on how to use it. As for comparisons, I can't really speak to that. I did download NVDA as a backup screen reader in case JAWS didn't work for something. However, after a couple weeks of using it, I didn't really like it and uninstalled it. I don't know if this was just a matter of my inexperience with using NVDA and my experience with using JAWS or if it's just that JAWS is a better screen reader, but I'll leave that up to more experienced NVDA users to decide. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi all, Where do you download NVDA? Are there tutorials to learn to use it? Also, how does it compare with paid screen readers such as jaws? Does it read the internet just as well? I’m thinking of downloading it if I volunteer somewhere. Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 22:22:49 2012 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:22:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting: Preregister Now! Come Early, and Win an iPod Touch! Message-ID: <019801cd50c5$90015c00$b0041400$@gmail.com> Good afternoon! We are excited to announce that NABS will be holding our annual seminar and business meeting at 7:00pm on Sunday, July 1 in the Stemmons Ballroom of the Hilton Anatole. This is a change from our location in prior years in Dallas. The Stemmons Ballroom is located on the lobby level of the atrium side of the hotel. Registration for the meeting will open at 6:15pm, and the meeting will begin promptly at 7:00. We strongly encourage you to come and register early. This year's agenda is packed, and we don't want you to miss out on any of the exciting and engaging presentations slated for the meeting. To encourage you to come a bit early, we will be entering everybody who is registered by 6:45 (not in line to register, but actually through the line and registered) into the door prize pool twice rather than once. So, you say, what's the big deal? Well my friends, the big deal is that we have excellent door prizes this year, including a little bit of cash and an iPod Touch, which was generously donated to NABS by Learning Ally. We will also be playing a variety of music in the meeting room during registration for your listening pleasure. So, come out early, chat with fellow students while waiting, and double your odds of walking out of the meeting with a brand new iPod Touch! Do you want to avoid that long registration line? Well, ask, and you shall receive. Thanks to the hard work of Mr. Tony Olivero, the NABS board is pleased to offer you the option of preregistering for the meeting. If you opt to do so, you will only need to provide your name or email address on meeting day, pay to register, and walk right in. Preregistrants will have their own faster-moving line and will be able to skip providing all their contact info. So, click right here and simplify your life! http://www.nabslink.org/drupal/civicrm/event/register?reset=1 &id=2 And, don't worry, as long as you are through the line by quarter to seven, you too will be double entered to win that iPod, some $$$, or other great door prizes. The agenda for the meeting is nearly finalized, and will be circulated via list serve in the near future. Please feel encouraged to be in touch with any questions, comments or concerns. We look forward to seeing many of you in Dallas Texas! Sincerely, Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com From liziswhatis at hotmail.com Sat Jun 23 00:19:27 2012 From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:19:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> References: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hi Ty, Welcome to this list. My name is Liz. I currently serve as the President of the Illinois Association of Blind Students. I graduated in May with my Master's from Northern Illinois University in blind rehabilitation teaching with a specialization in assistive technology. I am now an assistive technology specialist at a nonprofit blind rehab agency in Atlanta, Georgia. Take care, and again, welcome! Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 1:06 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself Hello all: My name is Ty, and I am relatively new to the list. I am a member of ACBS; I am in fact the webmaster. I know a lot of people kind of go for one over the other, but I like to stay somewhere in the middle; I think both organizations do good, and that's what I like to see. I figured this would come up from anyone who knew me as the webmaster, so I wanted to get it out of the way. I live in Colorado, and am currently working on a degree in computer science with an emphasis on security. In my free time, I enjoy reading, music, carving and I do a lot of technology related stuff; I have had experience with numerous programming languages, Windows, Linux and OSX. I have an awesome yellow lab guide dog, whose name is O'Mally. I received him from GDB in early August of 2011. I think that's basically it for me. I look forward to contributing and reading the discussions on list. -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmail.co m From amylsabo at comcast.net Sat Jun 23 02:12:08 2012 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:12:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself In-Reply-To: References: <4FE008BC.9030602@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <002401cd50e5$98216270$c8642750$@comcast.net> Hello tai, Welcome to the land of nabs. My name is amy sabo and, I too am from Colorado too but, I'm originally from Michigan. Thanks for sharing some stuff about yourself and, I look forward to hearing from you soon. Hugs, Amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Liz Bottner Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 6:19 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing myself Hi Ty, Welcome to this list. My name is Liz. I currently serve as the President of the Illinois Association of Blind Students. I graduated in May with my Master's from Northern Illinois University in blind rehabilitation teaching with a specialization in assistive technology. I am now an assistive technology specialist at a nonprofit blind rehab agency in Atlanta, Georgia. Take care, and again, welcome! Liz Bottner Guiding Eyes Graduate Council GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531 e-mail: liziswhatis at hotmail.com Visit my LiveJournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 1:06 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] introducing myself Hello all: My name is Ty, and I am relatively new to the list. I am a member of ACBS; I am in fact the webmaster. I know a lot of people kind of go for one over the other, but I like to stay somewhere in the middle; I think both organizations do good, and that's what I like to see. I figured this would come up from anyone who knew me as the webmaster, so I wanted to get it out of the way. I live in Colorado, and am currently working on a degree in computer science with an emphasis on security. In my free time, I enjoy reading, music, carving and I do a lot of technology related stuff; I have had experience with numerous programming languages, Windows, Linux and OSX. I have an awesome yellow lab guide dog, whose name is O'Mally. I received him from GDB in early August of 2011. I think that's basically it for me. I look forward to contributing and reading the discussions on list. -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmail.co m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From dandrews at visi.com Sat Jun 23 03:32:50 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 22:32:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: PowerPoint 2010 Textbooks are now available Message-ID: > >I'm pleased to announce the release of our PowerPoint 2010 textbooks. These >textbooks are comprehensive immersions into PowerPoint. They'll take you >from the basics of the program through some of the advanced features. To >review the table of contents and purchase your copy, please visit: >http://www.blindtraining.com/shop/textbooks.htm > > > >CathyAnne > > > >CathyAnne Murtha > >Director > >Access Technology Institute > >cathy at blindtraining.com > >www.twitter.com/CathyAnneMurtha > >www.blindtraining.com > > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >_______________________________________________ >News mailing list >News at lists.blindtraining.com >http://lists.blindtraining.com/listinfo.cgi/news-blindtraining.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 08:40:13 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 01:40:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers In-Reply-To: <22383FD54B7045F8AA85E66F7D20D309@OwnerPC> References: <116FDFAAF7784310A03BC105F3285668@OwnerPC><001c01cd50a1$afd9b690$0f8d23b0$@gmail.com><3A2FF18D17274DE493F0F44F9E439CF0@OwnerPC><399A311ED74C4EA8BE432F61F0367E4E@BrandonsLaptop2> <22383FD54B7045F8AA85E66F7D20D309@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <52530DC0B2E74EF3BD580DD999CCC0AD@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, that really depends on how much money you're willing to spend. You can probably get any voice in some form. I use British English Jaws and Justin on SAPI which are the same voice. So that's like asking an IPhone user what apps there are for the IPhone, what ever you buy and that are for the IPhone. I don't know all of them, but I don't think Eloquence is supported. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 3:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Oh, that is how you change the voices. Good to know for when I install it. So, then it has more voices than espeak. What other voices are there? -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 3:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hello, go to the NVDA menu and go to voices and change the synthesizer to SAPI. NVDA 12 also has support for some more voices I'm not sure about. I believe the read all command is the same with nvda as it is with Jaws, but I don't use it for reading all, so idk. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:32 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi all, I wonder what other free voices are out there? I'm concerned I won't understand the british accent of the Espeak voice. Also how do you turn NVDA off and do you use the numeric keypad for reading commands? Do you press insert up and down arrow to read current and say all lines? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 2:05 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi Ashley, As Joshua said, you can download NVDA from www.nvda-project.org. You might also want to check out mainmenu.acbradio.org. The Main Menu team put together a comprehensive ZIP file which includes the NVDA screen reader itself along with a lot of tutorials on how to use it. As for comparisons, I can't really speak to that. I did download NVDA as a backup screen reader in case JAWS didn't work for something. However, after a couple weeks of using it, I didn't really like it and uninstalled it. I don't know if this was just a matter of my inexperience with using NVDA and my experience with using JAWS or if it's just that JAWS is a better screen reader, but I'll leave that up to more experienced NVDA users to decide. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] NVDA and other screen readers Hi all, Where do you download NVDA? Are there tutorials to learn to use it? Also, how does it compare with paid screen readers such as jaws? Does it read the internet just as well? I’m thinking of downloading it if I volunteer somewhere. Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 23 22:10:25 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:10:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: PowerPoint 2010 Textbooks are now available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C0798B57CA94F6BBEFC9E0182DDB7A1@OwnerPC> this sounds like a good source. Has anyone gotten her powerpoint or excel tutorials? If so how were they? do they go step by step? -----Original Message----- From: David Andrews Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:32 PM To: promotion-technology at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: PowerPoint 2010 Textbooks are now available > >I'm pleased to announce the release of our PowerPoint 2010 textbooks. >These >textbooks are comprehensive immersions into PowerPoint. They'll take you >from the basics of the program through some of the advanced features. To >review the table of contents and purchase your copy, please visit: >http://www.blindtraining.com/shop/textbooks.htm > > > >CathyAnne > > > >CathyAnne Murtha > >Director > >Access Technology Institute > >cathy at blindtraining.com > >www.twitter.com/CathyAnneMurtha > >www.blindtraining.com > > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >_______________________________________________ >News mailing list >News at lists.blindtraining.com >http://lists.blindtraining.com/listinfo.cgi/news-blindtraining.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 23 22:53:58 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:53:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] community service seminar Message-ID: <2236972FDAC842DDBACC4D495760573F@OwnerPC> Hi all, I realized my comments went the wrong place because they were sent to the master list. I see the agenda for the community service meeting is packed full of inspiring stories and tips. this sounds like an excellent seminar. If anyone records it digitally, please send me the recorded file. I especially want to hear this one >5:20 - 5:35: How Getting Involved Can Get You That Job > >Dick Davis, Chairperson, Employment Committee I want to get a job based on volunteering and hearing this will give me hope for that. How exactly do you turn volunteering into employment is something I don’t know especially when many volunteers are there because it’s a small nonprofit without the resources to pay a big staff. Ashley From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 23 23:05:46 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:05:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Excel 2010 Textbooks are now available for purchase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IF anyone has used these excel tutorials, how are they? does it cover sorting and functions? -----Original Message----- From: David Andrews Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 10:12 PM To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Excel 2010 Textbooks are now available for purchase > >I'm pleased to announce the release of our Excel 2010 textbooks. These >textbooks are comprehensive explorations of Excel with JAWS or Window-Eyes. >Review the table of contents and place your order at: >http://www.blindtraining.com/shop/office2010.htm. > > > >Due to an outage of my shopping carts FTP site, I'll be sending download >links to all who purchase the textbooks. > > > >CathyAnne > > > >CathyAnne Murtha > >Online Access Technology Trainer > >Access Technology Institute > >cathy at blindtraining.com > >www.twitter.com/CathyAnneMurtha > >www.blindtraining.com > > > >Listen to my radio show Thursday nights 10:00 PM Eastern > >www.mushroomfm.com > > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From hhamraz at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 05:22:38 2012 From: hhamraz at gmail.com (Hamid Hamraz) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 09:52:38 +0430 Subject: [nabs-l] Alternate Format Processing of an inaccessible Document Message-ID: <99AAE6F96DDC492AB1D9D1A8D6E363E2@HamidPC> Dear Folks, I am looking for a service which receives my scientific inaccessible documents that are mathematical in nature, and sends me back the proof-read screen-reader friendly equivalents - probably Word - within a certain amount of time. Any suggestions? Ashley: Thank you for the Learning Alley link. I contacted them. That's a nice service. However, they only produce audio formats, and not written documents at the moment. Thanks, Hamid From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 14:14:16 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:14:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Alternate Format Processing of an inaccessible Document In-Reply-To: <99AAE6F96DDC492AB1D9D1A8D6E363E2@HamidPC> References: <99AAE6F96DDC492AB1D9D1A8D6E363E2@HamidPC> Message-ID: <19EE685C-4EFA-477C-8048-3C3EF4BB74E9@gmail.com> Try sending the file to convert at robobraille.org. Put doc in the subject. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPod On Jun 24, 2012, at 1:22 AM, "Hamid Hamraz" wrote: > Dear Folks, > > I am looking for a service which receives my scientific inaccessible documents that are mathematical in nature, and sends me back the proof-read screen-reader friendly equivalents - probably Word - within a certain amount of time. Any suggestions? > > Ashley: > Thank you for the Learning Alley link. I contacted them. That's a nice service. However, they only produce audio formats, and not written documents at the moment. > > Thanks, > > Hamid > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From hhamraz at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 15:59:38 2012 From: hhamraz at gmail.com (Hamid Hamraz) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 20:29:38 +0430 Subject: [nabs-l] Alternate Format Processing of an inaccessible Document In-Reply-To: <19EE685C-4EFA-477C-8048-3C3EF4BB74E9@gmail.com> References: <99AAE6F96DDC492AB1D9D1A8D6E363E2@HamidPC> <19EE685C-4EFA-477C-8048-3C3EF4BB74E9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <448721CE093747469A12923AC3FC6D8C@HamidPC> Hi there, Could you report how well it detects mathematical symbols? As a matter of fact, I am looking for a service to take both the initial document, and the automatically converted doc file via robobraille, omnipage, etc, and do the final proof reading as well as doing other non-automated tasks such as adding a text description after figures, adding multiple levels of headings for convenient navigation, etc. Any suggestions? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Alternate Format Processing of an inaccessible Document > Try sending the file to convert at robobraille.org. Put doc in the subject. > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPod > > On Jun 24, 2012, at 1:22 AM, "Hamid Hamraz" wrote: > >> Dear Folks, >> >> I am looking for a service which receives my scientific inaccessible >> documents that are mathematical in nature, and sends me back the >> proof-read screen-reader friendly equivalents - probably Word - within a >> certain amount of time. Any suggestions? >> >> Ashley: >> Thank you for the Learning Alley link. I contacted them. That's a nice >> service. However, they only produce audio formats, and not written >> documents at the moment. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Hamid >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hhamraz%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 02:47:25 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 22:47:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Convention Questions References: <4fe776b2.e188ec0a.52af.6e59@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Here are some questions about convention which I would like to get your thoughts on for a friend: Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPod Begin forwarded message: > From: Roanna Baccchus > Date: June 24, 2012 4:20:08 PM EDT > To: Chris Nusbaum > Subject: Convention Questions > > Hi Chris hope all is well. Today I logged onto Nf's web site and read the guide for first-time convention attendees. I have a few questions for you about the convention. What was your favorite part about it? What was it like attending a convention for the first time? Did your parents let you go to the convention alone? From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Mon Jun 25 09:04:14 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 04:04:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Convention Questions In-Reply-To: References: <4fe776b2.e188ec0a.52af.6e59@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Well: I didn't attend convention alone, 2 years ago. My favorite parts were Dr Kurzweil's speech, and the banquet. It was fun! I enjoyed looking at what little technology, I got to look at. I'm still interested in looking at the Apex, though. Blessings, Joshua On 6/24/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi all, > > Here are some questions about convention which I would like to get your > thoughts on for a friend: > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPod > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Roanna Baccchus >> Date: June 24, 2012 4:20:08 PM EDT >> To: Chris Nusbaum >> Subject: Convention Questions >> >> Hi Chris hope all is well. Today I logged onto Nf's web site and read the >> guide for first-time convention attendees. I have a few questions for you >> about the convention. What was your favorite part about it? What was it >> like attending a convention for the first time? Did your parents let you >> go to the convention alone? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Mon Jun 25 09:05:36 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 04:05:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Convention Questions In-Reply-To: References: <4fe776b2.e188ec0a.52af.6e59@mx.google.com> Message-ID: This, is a great thread, for us, who have attended conventions, in the past to discuss this, and encourage people, on this list, that have never attended one, to consider it. Thanks for starting it! Blessings, Joshua On 6/24/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi all, > > Here are some questions about convention which I would like to get your > thoughts on for a friend: > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPod > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Roanna Baccchus >> Date: June 24, 2012 4:20:08 PM EDT >> To: Chris Nusbaum >> Subject: Convention Questions >> >> Hi Chris hope all is well. Today I logged onto Nf's web site and read the >> guide for first-time convention attendees. I have a few questions for you >> about the convention. What was your favorite part about it? What was it >> like attending a convention for the first time? Did your parents let you >> go to the convention alone? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 13:08:20 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:08:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: NABS Meeting: Preregister Now! Come Early, and Win an iPod Touch! In-Reply-To: <019801cd50c5$90015c00$b0041400$@gmail.com> References: <019801cd50c5$90015c00$b0041400$@gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sean Whalen Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:22:49 -0400 Subject: NABS Meeting: Preregister Now! Come Early, and Win an iPod Touch! To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org, nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org Good afternoon! We are excited to announce that NABS will be holding our annual seminar and business meeting at 7:00pm on Sunday, July 1 in the Stemmons Ballroom of the Hilton Anatole. This is a change from our location in prior years in Dallas. The Stemmons Ballroom is located on the lobby level of the atrium side of the hotel. Registration for the meeting will open at 6:15pm, and the meeting will begin promptly at 7:00. We strongly encourage you to come and register early. This year's agenda is packed, and we don't want you to miss out on any of the exciting and engaging presentations slated for the meeting. To encourage you to come a bit early, we will be entering everybody who is registered by 6:45 (not in line to register, but actually through the line and registered) into the door prize pool twice rather than once. So, you say, what's the big deal? Well my friends, the big deal is that we have excellent door prizes this year, including a little bit of cash and an iPod Touch, which was generously donated to NABS by Learning Ally. We will also be playing a variety of music in the meeting room during registration for your listening pleasure. So, come out early, chat with fellow students while waiting, and double your odds of walking out of the meeting with a brand new iPod Touch! Do you want to avoid that long registration line? Well, ask, and you shall receive. Thanks to the hard work of Mr. Tony Olivero, the NABS board is pleased to offer you the option of preregistering for the meeting. If you opt to do so, you will only need to provide your name or email address on meeting day, pay to register, and walk right in. Preregistrants will have their own faster-moving line and will be able to skip providing all their contact info. So, click right here and simplify your life! http://www.nabslink.org/drupal/civicrm/event/register?reset=1 &id=2 And, don't worry, as long as you are through the line by quarter to seven, you too will be double entered to win that iPod, some $$$, or other great door prizes. The agenda for the meeting is nearly finalized, and will be circulated via list serve in the near future. Please feel encouraged to be in touch with any questions, comments or concerns. We look forward to seeing many of you in Dallas Texas! Sincerely, Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 13:12:14 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:12:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Njabs-talk] Let your voices be heard! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mary Fernandez Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 16:00:20 -0400 Subject: [Njabs-talk] Let your voices be heard! To: Presidents , National Association of Blind Students mailing list , GABS , New Jersey Association of Blind Students Have you ever wanted to get the opportunity to ask questions of the candidates who run at NABS elections? Did you ever wish to clarify some points in your mind before casting the vote? If you have, then the NABS candidates forum is an event you can't afford to miss! The forum will be taking place on Wednesday June 27th at 8 PM. Please, please, please submit your questions so that our candidates are challenged during this epic event! To submit your questions visit http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FDFW5Q7 And to hear the responses to your thoughtful and insightful question, make sure to call in! Again the positions that will be participating are president, 2nd vice president and secretary! Let me know if you have questions. I would also add that we will not be taking questions during the call, so speak now! Yours -- Mary Fernandez Emory 2012 "A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes up her burdens and walks toward the future." -- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich _______________________________________________ njabs-talk mailing list njabs-talk at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/njabs-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for njabs-talk: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/njabs-talk_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 13:14:18 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:14:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Mississippi State University Mentoring Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Candice Chapman Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 09:47:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Mississippi State University Mentoring Project To: NABS LIst When I started the process of deciding what I wanted to be when I grow up, I had to do a lot of research to find the career that would fit me the best. After a lot of trial and error, I finally decided that I wanted to be a high school guidance counselor. Once I came to this conclusion, my work still wasn't done. I had to figure out how to get from point A (deciding on my career) to point B (finishing requirements to achieve my career goal). Fortunately I had a few people who had already been down this path before me and were able to assist me as I traveled, and continue to travel, the road to becoming a guidance counselor. As I continue my journey, I'm fortunate to have several mentors who are there to answer questions and provide assistance crossing the next hurdle to get to my ultimate goal. I was lucky enough acquire these mentors along the way, but you don't have to depend on luck if you're looking for a mentor that has already established in the career that you've decided to pursue. The National Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision is starting a mentoring program that will pair students with career mentors. The goal of this program is to provide not only a role model in the field of your choice, but also someone who can help you reach your goals, goals that they once had themselves. If you're interested in the program please contact Jamie O'Mally. Her contact information is included on the flyer that is attached to this email. Jamie will also be attending National Convention. She'll be speaking at the NABS Business Meeting and will be around to answer any questions that you may have in person. Again, for Jamie's contact information see the attached flyer. Warmest regards, Candice Chapman -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mentoring Recruitment Flyer 2012-06-15.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 36085 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 18:06:07 2012 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:06:07 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Facebook Changed Everyone's Email to @Facebook.com; Here's How to Fix It Message-ID: I would fix this for those of you who have a facebook account. http://lifehacker.com/5921095/facebook-just-changed-your-email-without-permission-heres-how-to-get-it-back Good luck to all. From nabs.president at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 21:20:03 2012 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (nabs.president at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 17:20:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Updated Link: NABS Meeting: Preregister Now! Come Early, and Win an iPod Touch! Message-ID: <020801cd5318$49f02d90$ddd088b0$@gmail.com> We have learned that users of some email clients had problems with the initial preregistration link we sent out. Here is a shorter link, which should work better, as well as the original announcement below: http://j.mp/NABS12 Thanks, Sean We are excited to announce that NABS will be holding our annual seminar and business meeting at 7:00pm on Sunday, July 1 in the Stemmons Ballroom of the Hilton Anatole. This is a change from our location in prior years in Dallas. The Stemmons Ballroom is located on the lobby level of the atrium side of the hotel. Registration for the meeting will open at 6:15pm, and the meeting will begin promptly at 7:00. We strongly encourage you to come and register early. This year's agenda is packed, and we don't want you to miss out on any of the exciting and engaging presentations slated for the meeting. To encourage you to come a bit early, we will be entering everybody who is registered by 6:45 (not in line to register, but actually through the line and registered) into the door prize pool twice rather than once. So, you say, what's the big deal? Well my friends, the big deal is that we have excellent door prizes this year, including a little bit of cash and an iPod Touch, which was generously donated to NABS by Learning Ally. We will also be playing a variety of music in the meeting room during registration for your listening pleasure. So, come out early, chat with fellow students while waiting, and double your odds of walking out of the meeting with a brand new iPod Touch! Do you want to avoid that long registration line? Well, ask, and you shall receive. Thanks to the hard work of Mr. Tony Olivero, the NABS board is pleased to offer you the option of preregistering for the meeting. If you opt to do so, you will only need to provide your name or email address on meeting day, pay to register, and walk right in. Preregistrants will have their own faster-moving line and will be able to skip providing all their contact info. So, click right here and simplify your life! http://j.mp/NABS12 And, don't worry, as long as you are through the line by quarter to seven, you too will be double entered to win that iPod, some $$$, or other great door prizes. The agenda for the meeting is nearly finalized, and will be circulated via list serve in the near future. Please feel encouraged to be in touch with any questions, comments or concerns. We look forward to seeing many of you in Dallas Texas! Sincerely, Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com From portillo.jim at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 21:29:02 2012 From: portillo.jim at gmail.com (Jim Portillo) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:29:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] JFW and Windows Live Messenger Message-ID: <4fe8d828.28d5440a.35dc.087c@mx.google.com> Hi there, I'm running a computer using Windows and JFW 13. Recently, I was told that I needed to update to a new version of Windows Live Messenger. I use it with someone on a somewhat regular basis, and now, I'm finding it a bit hard to use. Are there some new changes or commands I need to know in order to use the new Windows Messenger with JAWS 13? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Jim From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 21:45:23 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:45:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Updated Link: NABS Meeting: Preregister Now! Come Early, and Win an iPod Touch! In-Reply-To: <020801cd5318$49f02d90$ddd088b0$@gmail.com> References: <020801cd5318$49f02d90$ddd088b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: nabs.president at gmail.com Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 17:20:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Updated Link: NABS Meeting: Preregister Now! Come Early, and Win an iPod Touch! To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org, nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org We have learned that users of some email clients had problems with the initial preregistration link we sent out. Here is a shorter link, which should work better, as well as the original announcement below: http://j.mp/NABS12 Thanks, Sean We are excited to announce that NABS will be holding our annual seminar and business meeting at 7:00pm on Sunday, July 1 in the Stemmons Ballroom of the Hilton Anatole. This is a change from our location in prior years in Dallas. The Stemmons Ballroom is located on the lobby level of the atrium side of the hotel. Registration for the meeting will open at 6:15pm, and the meeting will begin promptly at 7:00. We strongly encourage you to come and register early. This year's agenda is packed, and we don't want you to miss out on any of the exciting and engaging presentations slated for the meeting. To encourage you to come a bit early, we will be entering everybody who is registered by 6:45 (not in line to register, but actually through the line and registered) into the door prize pool twice rather than once. So, you say, what's the big deal? Well my friends, the big deal is that we have excellent door prizes this year, including a little bit of cash and an iPod Touch, which was generously donated to NABS by Learning Ally. We will also be playing a variety of music in the meeting room during registration for your listening pleasure. So, come out early, chat with fellow students while waiting, and double your odds of walking out of the meeting with a brand new iPod Touch! Do you want to avoid that long registration line? Well, ask, and you shall receive. Thanks to the hard work of Mr. Tony Olivero, the NABS board is pleased to offer you the option of preregistering for the meeting. If you opt to do so, you will only need to provide your name or email address on meeting day, pay to register, and walk right in. Preregistrants will have their own faster-moving line and will be able to skip providing all their contact info. So, click right here and simplify your life! http://j.mp/NABS12 And, don't worry, as long as you are through the line by quarter to seven, you too will be double entered to win that iPod, some $$$, or other great door prizes. The agenda for the meeting is nearly finalized, and will be circulated via list serve in the near future. Please feel encouraged to be in touch with any questions, comments or concerns. We look forward to seeing many of you in Dallas Texas! Sincerely, Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com -- Darian Smith "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 00:50:25 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:50:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Convention Questions In-Reply-To: References: <4fe776b2.e188ec0a.52af.6e59@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <007401cd5335$ad7cc5e0$087651a0$@gmail.com> I thought so too, which is why I started it. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 5:06 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fwd: Convention Questions This, is a great thread, for us, who have attended conventions, in the past to discuss this, and encourage people, on this list, that have never attended one, to consider it. Thanks for starting it! Blessings, Joshua On 6/24/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi all, > > Here are some questions about convention which I would like to get > your thoughts on for a friend: > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPod > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Roanna Baccchus >> Date: June 24, 2012 4:20:08 PM EDT >> To: Chris Nusbaum >> Subject: Convention Questions >> >> Hi Chris hope all is well. Today I logged onto Nf's web site and >> read the guide for first-time convention attendees. I have a few >> questions for you about the convention. What was your favorite part >> about it? What was it like attending a convention for the first time? >> Did your parents let you go to the convention alone? > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud > ents.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From tyler at tysdomain.com Tue Jun 26 01:26:36 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 19:26:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] music production:looking for the right list Message-ID: <4FE90FCC.7090702@tysdomain.com> Hello all: I've been working on a game engine for a while, which will allow me to quickly (or more quickly than usual, anyway) write games based on that framework. I am, however running into a probleM. I am not really sure where to get the sounds that I would need to make something at least decent quality, so I was hoping that there was someone who has ran across this/has some resources. I'm also going to need background music and the like. I don't mind picking something up, but good resources for setting up my own would be good. I know of fl7, but it's apparently not accessible. Thanks in advance, -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Jun 26 01:28:17 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:28:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] music production:looking for the right list In-Reply-To: <4FE90FCC.7090702@tysdomain.com> References: <4FE90FCC.7090702@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: musictlk at nfbnet.org Blessings, Joshua On 6/25/12, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Hello all: > I've been working on a game engine for a while, which will allow me to > quickly (or more quickly than usual, anyway) write games based on that > framework. I am, however running into a probleM. > > I am not really sure where to get the sounds that I would need to make > something at least decent quality, so I was hoping that there was > someone who has ran across this/has some resources. I'm also going to > need background music and the like. I don't mind picking something up, > but good resources for setting up my own would be good. I know of fl7, > but it's apparently not accessible. > > Thanks in advance, > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From laurel.stockard at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 01:33:36 2012 From: laurel.stockard at gmail.com (Laurel) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:33:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] music production:looking for the right list In-Reply-To: References: <4FE90FCC.7090702@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: There's a gamers list you could join, and I know there's people on there who could help you. It's not an NFB list, so I hope I'm not too out of line giving you the list address here. It's gamers at audyssey.org. Just go to audyssey.org and you can subscribe. I'd love to know if there was an emailing list for NFB's gamers, and computer stuff, but I have yet to find one. Hope this helps. Laurel and Stockard On 6/25/12, Joshua Lester wrote: > musictlk at nfbnet.org > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/25/12, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >> Hello all: >> I've been working on a game engine for a while, which will allow me to >> quickly (or more quickly than usual, anyway) write games based on that >> framework. I am, however running into a probleM. >> >> I am not really sure where to get the sounds that I would need to make >> something at least decent quality, so I was hoping that there was >> someone who has ran across this/has some resources. I'm also going to >> need background music and the like. I don't mind picking something up, >> but good resources for setting up my own would be good. I know of fl7, >> but it's apparently not accessible. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >> that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/laurel.stockard%40gmail.com > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 01:34:56 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 18:34:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] music production:looking for the right list In-Reply-To: <4FE90FCC.7090702@tysdomain.com> References: <4FE90FCC.7090702@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hello, MusicTalk or MidiMag or one of the DancingDots Lists may help you. Also the forums at AudioGames has someone composing for games for free. I also do little Midi Pieces I can show you, but they are more like Runescape music than Morowin. Send me an email off list if you'd like to know more: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 6:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] music production:looking for the right list Hello all: I've been working on a game engine for a while, which will allow me to quickly (or more quickly than usual, anyway) write games based on that framework. I am, however running into a probleM. I am not really sure where to get the sounds that I would need to make something at least decent quality, so I was hoping that there was someone who has ran across this/has some resources. I'm also going to need background music and the like. I don't mind picking something up, but good resources for setting up my own would be good. I know of fl7, but it's apparently not accessible. Thanks in advance, -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 02:22:35 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 22:22:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Alternate Format Processing of an inaccessible Document In-Reply-To: <448721CE093747469A12923AC3FC6D8C@HamidPC> References: <99AAE6F96DDC492AB1D9D1A8D6E363E2@HamidPC> <19EE685C-4EFA-477C-8048-3C3EF4BB74E9@gmail.com> <448721CE093747469A12923AC3FC6D8C@HamidPC> Message-ID: <000001cd5342$8dda8df0$a98fa9d0$@gmail.com> Hi Hamid, RoboBraille doesn't do all that; it just converts. I don't know of a Web site that will do what you want, though. Maybe somebody else here can help. Sorry! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hamid Hamraz Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 12:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Alternate Format Processing of an inaccessible Document Hi there, Could you report how well it detects mathematical symbols? As a matter of fact, I am looking for a service to take both the initial document, and the automatically converted doc file via robobraille, omnipage, etc, and do the final proof reading as well as doing other non-automated tasks such as adding a text description after figures, adding multiple levels of headings for convenient navigation, etc. Any suggestions? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Alternate Format Processing of an inaccessible Document > Try sending the file to convert at robobraille.org. Put doc in the subject. > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPod > > On Jun 24, 2012, at 1:22 AM, "Hamid Hamraz" wrote: > >> Dear Folks, >> >> I am looking for a service which receives my scientific inaccessible >> documents that are mathematical in nature, and sends me back the >> proof-read screen-reader friendly equivalents - probably Word - >> within a certain amount of time. Any suggestions? >> >> Ashley: >> Thank you for the Learning Alley link. I contacted them. That's a >> nice service. However, they only produce audio formats, and not >> written documents at the moment. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Hamid >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >> gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hhamraz%40gmail.co > m _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 02:28:07 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:28:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Alternate Format Processing of an inaccessible Document In-Reply-To: <000001cd5342$8dda8df0$a98fa9d0$@gmail.com> References: <99AAE6F96DDC492AB1D9D1A8D6E363E2@HamidPC> <19EE685C-4EFA-477C-8048-3C3EF4BB74E9@gmail.com> <448721CE093747469A12923AC3FC6D8C@HamidPC> <000001cd5342$8dda8df0$a98fa9d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Hamid, I think this job is probably best done by someone you hire to be your reader. You can hire another student in your class, or ask your professor to announce the job to students in more advanced classes. You could also ask your school's disability services office for help with translating the math symbols and describing pictures, if your school has one. Also, have you asked about this on the NFB's computer science list? They might know of resources we haven't thought of. Best of luck, Arielle On 6/25/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Hamid, > > RoboBraille doesn't do all that; it just converts. I don't know of a Web > site that will do what you want, though. Maybe somebody else here can help. > Sorry! > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Hamid Hamraz > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 12:00 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Alternate Format Processing of an inaccessible > Document > > Hi there, > > Could you report how well it detects mathematical symbols? > > As a matter of fact, I am looking for a service to take both the initial > document, and the automatically converted doc file via robobraille, > omnipage, etc, and do the final proof reading as well as doing other > non-automated tasks such as adding a text description after figures, adding > multiple levels of headings for convenient navigation, etc. Any > suggestions? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 6:44 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Alternate Format Processing of an inaccessible > Document > > >> Try sending the file to convert at robobraille.org. Put doc in the subject. >> >> >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPod >> >> On Jun 24, 2012, at 1:22 AM, "Hamid Hamraz" wrote: >> >>> Dear Folks, >>> >>> I am looking for a service which receives my scientific inaccessible >>> documents that are mathematical in nature, and sends me back the >>> proof-read screen-reader friendly equivalents - probably Word - >>> within a certain amount of time. Any suggestions? >>> >>> Ashley: >>> Thank you for the Learning Alley link. I contacted them. That's a >>> nice service. However, they only produce audio formats, and not >>> written documents at the moment. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Hamid >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hhamraz%40gmail.co >> m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From amylsabo at comcast.net Tue Jun 26 02:39:35 2012 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:39:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] music production: looking for the right list Message-ID: <012801cd5344$ecfda5e0$c6f8f1a0$@comcast.net> Hello there, The nfb net does have a list for computer science and, there's also a list for music which I'm a member of called the performing arts division. To subscribe to them just go to www.nfbnet.org and, that's where you will find both of these lists. I hope this information was helpful to you! Take care and, good luck with your computer and music endeavors. Hugs, amy -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 7:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] music production:looking for the right list Hello all: I've been working on a game engine for a while, which will allow me to quickly (or more quickly than usual, anyway) write games based on that framework. I am, however running into a problem. I am not really sure where to get the sounds that I would need to make something at least decent quality, so I was hoping that there was someone who has ran across this/has some resources. I'm also going to need background music and the like. I don't mind picking something up, but good resources for setting up my own would be good. I know of fl7, but it's apparently not accessible. Thanks in advance, -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From tyler at tysdomain.com Tue Jun 26 03:16:31 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 21:16:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] music production: looking for the right list In-Reply-To: <012801cd5344$ecfda5e0$c6f8f1a0$@comcast.net> References: <012801cd5344$ecfda5e0$c6f8f1a0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4FE9298F.70700@tysdomain.com> Thanks a lot for all the responses, I appreciate it. I will sign up on both of those lists--I'm not really great with audio, I guess I always seen how much everything costed and never went for it, but I could help out on the computer science one for sure. Thanks again. On 6/25/2012 8:39 PM, Amy Sabo wrote: > Hello there, > > The nfb net does have a list for computer science and, there's also a list > for music which I'm a member of called the performing arts division. > > To subscribe to them just go to > www.nfbnet.org and, that's where you will find both of these lists. > > I hope this information was helpful to you! Take care and, good luck with > your computer and music endeavors. > > > > Hugs, > amy > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 7:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] music production:looking for the right list > > Hello all: > I've been working on a game engine for a while, which will allow me to > quickly (or more quickly than usual, anyway) write games based on that > framework. I am, however running into a problem. > > I am not really sure where to get the sounds that I would need to make > something at least decent quality, so I was hoping that there was someone > who has ran across this/has some resources. I'm also going to need > background music and the like. I don't mind picking something up, but good > resources for setting up my own would be good. I know of fl7, but it's > apparently not accessible. > > Thanks in advance, > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 04:21:59 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:21:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] quick convention question Message-ID: <4fe9391b.26093c0a.1217.053b@mx.google.com> Dear All, This is my first time attending convention (well, I went when I was three, but that doesn't really count), so I'm kind of new to this whole thing. I have a friend who's eleven years old and interested in coming with me to the NABS meeting. How old do you have to be to be a part of NABS? Best wishes, Sophie From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Jun 26 04:25:48 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:25:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] quick convention question In-Reply-To: <4fe9391b.26093c0a.1217.053b@mx.google.com> References: <4fe9391b.26093c0a.1217.053b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I'd say high school age. That's how old you need to be, to join our state division. Blessings, Joshua On 6/25/12, Sophie Trist wrote: > Dear All, > > This is my first time attending convention (well, I went when I > was three, but that doesn't really count), so I'm kind of new to > this whole thing. I have a friend who's eleven years old and > interested in coming with me to the NABS meeting. How old do you > have to be to be a part of NABS? > Best wishes, > Sophie > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 04:37:32 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 22:37:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] quick convention question In-Reply-To: <4fe9391b.26093c0a.1217.053b@mx.google.com> References: <4fe9391b.26093c0a.1217.053b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <35E0C66E-497C-47B3-825F-2719B9798A46@gmail.com> Hi Sophie and all, Anyone is welcome at the NABS meeting. Your friend can come and pay $5 if she wants to vote, or come for free if she doesn't. Best, Arielle Silverman,Past NABS president Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2012, at 10:21 PM, Sophie Trist wrote: > Dear All, > > This is my first time attending convention (well, I went when I was three, but that doesn't really count), so I'm kind of new to this whole thing. I have a friend who's eleven years old and interested in coming with me to the NABS meeting. How old do you have to be to be a part of NABS? > Best wishes, > Sophie > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 05:40:55 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 00:40:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] quick convention question Message-ID: <4fe94b9b.0ae7b60a.54da.ffff8eab@mx.google.com> Thanks, Josh and Arielle. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman wrote: Dear All, This is my first time attending convention (well, I went when I was three, but that doesn't really count), so I'm kind of new to this whole thing. I have a friend who's eleven years old and interested in coming with me to the NABS meeting. How old do you have to be to be a part of NABS? Best wishes, Sophie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From dlawless86 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 12:31:46 2012 From: dlawless86 at gmail.com (Domonique Lawless) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 07:31:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] iPad, Speed Dots bundle, or Serotek's DocuScan Plus could be yours! Message-ID: <74B84EFA-F8F4-4A77-90C0-64F778662048@gmail.com> Tap into style with a new iPad 3 with Wifi; or swipe like a pro with a package donated by our friends at Speed Dots (tactile screen protector, Otterbox case and charger, Rii Bluetooth keyboard + case, and 6-foot sync cable); or read print with Serotek’s DocuScan Plus. You could win one of these three prizes with donations in $5 increments (or 5 chances for $20) to benefit the National Association of Blind Students. See a NABS board member at convention or e-mail Domonique at dlawless86 at gmail.com to purchase tickets. Drawing to be held at the NFB Annual Banquet on July 5, 2012 in Dallas. Winner need not be present to win. 1 ticket for $5, 5 tickets for $20. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 15:43:52 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:43:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] quick convention question In-Reply-To: <4fe9391b.26093c0a.1217.053b@mx.google.com> References: <4fe9391b.26093c0a.1217.053b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000e01cd53b2$7e605920$7b210b60$@gmail.com> Hi Sophie, As Arielle said, anybody who is a student is welcome in NABS, and everyone is welcome at the NABS meeting. I'm surprised, Josh, that your state's student division has an age limit; ours doesn't. I'm going into 9th grade this year, so I was in 8th grade last year. At last year's state convention, I went to our student division business meeting, and was actually nominated to be a board member. I lost that election, probably because I was like the youngest person in the room. Oh well... there's always another year. But anyway, I'm still very active in NABS and our state's student division, as I was since 7th grade, when I joined this list. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:22 AM To: nabs Subject: [nabs-l] quick convention question Dear All, This is my first time attending convention (well, I went when I was three, but that doesn't really count), so I'm kind of new to this whole thing. I have a friend who's eleven years old and interested in coming with me to the NABS meeting. How old do you have to be to be a part of NABS? Best wishes, Sophie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 16:12:28 2012 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 09:12:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] quick convention question In-Reply-To: <000e01cd53b2$7e605920$7b210b60$@gmail.com> References: <4fe9391b.26093c0a.1217.053b@mx.google.com> <000e01cd53b2$7e605920$7b210b60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Greetings: Nabs takes all comerss! if there is always information that is sure to benifit a younger student, a high school, college or grad school student, as well as teachers and parents. As Arielle has pointed out (she should know, being a past nabs president and such), if a person wishes to vote in elections, they may simply pay the $5 dues, or if you don't want to vote, you need not pay. Either way you are more than welcome to join us! I am very excited to see you and your friend (as well as the rest of you) at the nabs meeting! On 6/26/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Sophie, > > As Arielle said, anybody who is a student is welcome in NABS, and everyone > is welcome at the NABS meeting. I'm surprised, Josh, that your state's > student division has an age limit; ours doesn't. I'm going into 9th grade > this year, so I was in 8th grade last year. At last year's state > convention, > I went to our student division business meeting, and was actually nominated > to be a board member. I lost that election, probably because I was like the > youngest person in the room. Oh well... there's always another year. > But anyway, I'm still very active in NABS and our state's student > division, as I was since 7th grade, when I joined this list. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Sophie Trist > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:22 AM > To: nabs > Subject: [nabs-l] quick convention question > > Dear All, > > This is my first time attending convention (well, I went when I was three, > but that doesn't really count), so I'm kind of new to this whole thing. I > have a friend who's eleven years old and interested in coming with me to > the > NABS meeting. How old do you have to be to be a part of NABS? > Best wishes, > Sophie > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith "Let's work together to eliminate Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities" http://www.nfb.org/fairwages "To dream what is possible and to put oneself in service of that dream is the formula for a life well lived." - Dr. Peter Benson From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 16:42:05 2012 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 12:42:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Final Reminder, NABS Candidates' Forum! Tomorrow! Message-ID: Attention to all! Do you consider yourself a responsible citizen? Do you enjoy your right to vote? Do you weigh the prose and cons of every candidate before casting your vote! If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then the NABS candidates forum is an event you can't even consider missing! Reasons to attend 1. The forum will be a time during which the NABS candidates for President, 2nd Vice President and Secretary will be answering questions you have provided! And i must say, the questions are excellent and will give us all food for thought. Wait... You haven't yet submitted your questions? You want to know how? Simply visit: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FDFW5Q7 And Fill in the questions! But don't wait, I will be closing down the survey tonight at 10 PM EST, so hurry! 2. The forum will be moderated by former NABS President, and renowned lawyer and NFB leader, Scott LaBarre! 3. The forum will be a debate, so candidates will go back and forth. Who doesn't enjoy a good debate? 4. This is your chance to let your voices be heard, to make a meaningful contribution to NABS and to let NABS know what direction you would like it to go! So don't miss what is promising to be an epic event. How to Call IN Teleconference Number: 1 (619) 326-2700 access code 733-7548 Again 8 PM tomorrow, Wednesday! Eastern Standard Time! If you have questions, concerns, or just comments feel free to email or text or call me. 732-857-7004. Hope to see you there! Mary F -- Mary Fernandez Emory 2012 "A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes up her burdens and walks toward the future." -- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 17:37:29 2012 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 13:37:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 68, Issue 37 Message-ID: <4fe9f35b.a9aaec0a.3fc7.147d@mx.google.com> My name is Voanna Bacchus and I live in Orlando, Florida. I am a visually impaired college student and I'm twentfor-two years old. My hobbies are singing lordeading and listening to music. My favorite foods are pasta and any sweets. I especially love anything containing any hint of chocolate. I was born on February 28th, 1990 in Boston, Massachusetts. From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 17:48:04 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 10:48:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 68, Issue 37 In-Reply-To: <4fe9f35b.a9aaec0a.3fc7.147d@mx.google.com> References: <4fe9f35b.a9aaec0a.3fc7.147d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hello Voanna! I love singing too! Would you mind telling me what lordeading is? I've never heard of it, is it a style of music? Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Roanna Baccchus Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 10:37 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 68, Issue 37 My name is Voanna Bacchus and I live in Orlando, Florida. I am a visually impaired college student and I'm twentfor-two years old. My hobbies are singing lordeading and listening to music. My favorite foods are pasta and any sweets. I especially love anything containing any hint of chocolate. I was born on February 28th, 1990 in Boston, Massachusetts. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From nabs.president at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 19:36:48 2012 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (nabs.president at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 15:36:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] quick convention question Message-ID: <002801cd53d3$07ecd9a0$17c68ce0$@gmail.com> Hi Sophie, Echoing what Darian, Arielle and others have already made clear, absolutely anybody who is a student or has an interest in student issues is most welcome to attend our meeting. NABS is especially interested in building outreach to younger students, so we'd love to see your friend at the meeting. Look forward to seeing you there as well. Take care, Sean Whalen From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 20:44:01 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:44:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 68, Issue 37 In-Reply-To: <4fe9f35b.a9aaec0a.3fc7.147d@mx.google.com> References: <4fe9f35b.a9aaec0a.3fc7.147d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <001501cd53dc$6c149090$443db1b0$@gmail.com> Hi Roanna, Welcome to the list! I'm glad you decided to join us! BTW, I know Roanna from another list, and she was the person who asked me the convention questions I forwarded to you all last weekend. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Baccchus Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 1:37 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 68, Issue 37 My name is Voanna Bacchus and I live in Orlando, Florida. I am a visually impaired college student and I'm twentfor-two years old. My hobbies are singing lordeading and listening to music. My favorite foods are pasta and any sweets. I especially love anything containing any hint of chocolate. I was born on February 28th, 1990 in Boston, Massachusetts. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 20:47:09 2012 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 13:47:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 68, Issue 37 In-Reply-To: <001501cd53dc$6c149090$443db1b0$@gmail.com> References: <4fe9f35b.a9aaec0a.3fc7.147d@mx.google.com> <001501cd53dc$6c149090$443db1b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think she meant to put an r and not a v, :) a common mistake with braille-style keyboards. On 6/26/12, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Hi Roanna, > > Welcome to the list! I'm glad you decided to join us! BTW, I know Roanna > from another list, and she was the person who asked me the convention > questions I forwarded to you all last weekend. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Roanna Baccchus > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 1:37 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 68, Issue 37 > > My name is Voanna Bacchus and I live in Orlando, Florida. I am a visually > impaired college student and I'm twentfor-two years old. > My hobbies are singing lordeading and listening to music. My favorite > foods > are pasta and any sweets. I especially love anything containing any hint > of > chocolate. I was born on February 28th, 1990 in Boston, Massachusetts. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 20:50:25 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:50:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Final Reminder, NABS Candidates' Forum! Tomorrow! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001601cd53dd$5133cec0$f39b6c40$@gmail.com> Hi Mary, I just have 2 quick questions. Firstly, what time is the call tomorrow night? I thought I saw in another email it was at 7:30 EST, but I'm not sure. Secondly, is Audio Access FM streaming and/or recording the call? Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; New Jersey Association of Blind Students; GABS; dsmithnfb; Scott C. LaBarre; alewis; Carranza, Rosy; Wilson, Joanne Subject: [nabs-l] Final Reminder, NABS Candidates' Forum! Tomorrow! Attention to all! Do you consider yourself a responsible citizen? Do you enjoy your right to vote? Do you weigh the prose and cons of every candidate before casting your vote! If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then the NABS candidates forum is an event you can't even consider missing! Reasons to attend 1. The forum will be a time during which the NABS candidates for President, 2nd Vice President and Secretary will be answering questions you have provided! And i must say, the questions are excellent and will give us all food for thought. Wait... You haven't yet submitted your questions? You want to know how? Simply visit: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FDFW5Q7 And Fill in the questions! But don't wait, I will be closing down the survey tonight at 10 PM EST, so hurry! 2. The forum will be moderated by former NABS President, and renowned lawyer and NFB leader, Scott LaBarre! 3. The forum will be a debate, so candidates will go back and forth. Who doesn't enjoy a good debate? 4. This is your chance to let your voices be heard, to make a meaningful contribution to NABS and to let NABS know what direction you would like it to go! So don't miss what is promising to be an epic event. How to Call IN Teleconference Number: 1 (619) 326-2700 access code 733-7548 Again 8 PM tomorrow, Wednesday! Eastern Standard Time! If you have questions, concerns, or just comments feel free to email or text or call me. 732-857-7004. Hope to see you there! Mary F -- Mary Fernandez Emory 2012 "A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes up her burdens and walks toward the future." -- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 20:55:30 2012 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:55:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Final Reminder, NABS Candidates' Forum! Tomorrow! In-Reply-To: <001601cd53dd$5133cec0$f39b6c40$@gmail.com> References: <001601cd53dd$5133cec0$f39b6c40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Chris The call is definitely at 8 pm. And not sure about the streaming yet. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Jun 26, 2012, at 4:50 PM, "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: > Hi Mary, > > I just have 2 quick questions. Firstly, what time is the call tomorrow > night? I thought I saw in another email it was at 7:30 EST, but I'm not > sure. Secondly, is Audio Access FM streaming and/or recording the call? > > Thanks, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Mary Fernandez > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; New Jersey > Association of Blind Students; GABS; dsmithnfb; Scott C. LaBarre; alewis; > Carranza, Rosy; Wilson, Joanne > Subject: [nabs-l] Final Reminder, NABS Candidates' Forum! Tomorrow! > > Attention to all! > Do you consider yourself a responsible citizen? Do you enjoy your right to > vote? Do you weigh the prose and cons of every candidate before casting your > vote! If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then the NABS > candidates forum is an event you can't even consider missing! > Reasons to attend > 1. The forum will be a time during which the NABS candidates for President, > 2nd Vice President and Secretary will be answering questions you have > provided! And i must say, the questions are excellent and will give us all > food for thought. > Wait... You haven't yet submitted your questions? You want to know how? > Simply visit: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FDFW5Q7 > And Fill in the questions! But don't wait, I will be closing down the survey > tonight at 10 PM EST, so hurry! > 2. The forum will be moderated by former NABS President, and renowned lawyer > and NFB leader, Scott LaBarre! > 3. The forum will be a debate, so candidates will go back and forth. > Who doesn't enjoy a good debate? > 4. This is your chance to let your voices be heard, to make a meaningful > contribution to NABS and to let NABS know what direction you would like it > to go! So don't miss what is promising to be an epic event. > > How to Call IN > Teleconference Number: 1 (619) 326-2700 > access code > 733-7548 > Again 8 PM tomorrow, Wednesday! Eastern Standard Time! > If you have questions, concerns, or just comments feel free to email or text > or call me. > 732-857-7004. > Hope to see you there! > Mary F > > -- > Mary Fernandez > Emory 2012 > "A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes up > her burdens and walks toward the future." > -- > Laurel Thatcher Ulrich > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 20:57:37 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:57:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Final Reminder, NABS Candidates' Forum! Tomorrow! In-Reply-To: References: <001601cd53dd$5133cec0$f39b6c40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001a01cd53de$528b5300$f7a1f900$@gmail.com> Hey Mary, OK, thanks! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 4:55 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Final Reminder, NABS Candidates' Forum! Tomorrow! Hey Chris The call is definitely at 8 pm. And not sure about the streaming yet. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Jun 26, 2012, at 4:50 PM, "Chris Nusbaum" wrote: > Hi Mary, > > I just have 2 quick questions. Firstly, what time is the call tomorrow > night? I thought I saw in another email it was at 7:30 EST, but I'm > not sure. Secondly, is Audio Access FM streaming and/or recording the call? > > Thanks, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Mary Fernandez > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 12:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; New Jersey > Association of Blind Students; GABS; dsmithnfb; Scott C. LaBarre; > alewis; Carranza, Rosy; Wilson, Joanne > Subject: [nabs-l] Final Reminder, NABS Candidates' Forum! Tomorrow! > > Attention to all! > Do you consider yourself a responsible citizen? Do you enjoy your > right to vote? Do you weigh the prose and cons of every candidate > before casting your vote! If the answer to any of these questions is > yes, then the NABS candidates forum is an event you can't even consider missing! > Reasons to attend > 1. The forum will be a time during which the NABS candidates for > President, 2nd Vice President and Secretary will be answering > questions you have provided! And i must say, the questions are > excellent and will give us all food for thought. > Wait... You haven't yet submitted your questions? You want to know how? > Simply visit: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FDFW5Q7 > And Fill in the questions! But don't wait, I will be closing down the > survey tonight at 10 PM EST, so hurry! > 2. The forum will be moderated by former NABS President, and renowned > lawyer and NFB leader, Scott LaBarre! > 3. The forum will be a debate, so candidates will go back and forth. > Who doesn't enjoy a good debate? > 4. This is your chance to let your voices be heard, to make a > meaningful contribution to NABS and to let NABS know what direction > you would like it to go! So don't miss what is promising to be an epic event. > > How to Call IN > Teleconference Number: 1 (619) 326-2700 access code > 733-7548 > Again 8 PM tomorrow, Wednesday! Eastern Standard Time! > If you have questions, concerns, or just comments feel free to email > or text or call me. > 732-857-7004. > Hope to see you there! > Mary F > > -- > Mary Fernandez > Emory 2012 > "A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes > up her burdens and walks toward the future." > -- > Laurel Thatcher Ulrich > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmai > l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dandrews at visi.com Tue Jun 26 23:00:09 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:00:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: great buys on braille products to list Message-ID: >From: Patrick Fischer > >Good afternoon Dave, > >I have some great buys on some used demo braille products so can you >post this to the listserve? > >These are demo units being sold by Accessibility dot Net and so >these units were only used for demos. They all are working and come >with the original documentation, cables and adaptors. > >40-cell Braille displays >1 Freedom scientific focus Blue 40 (full warranty good >until October 2013) $1500.00 > Best buy as this is Bluetooth and USB and less than 40 > hours on it. >1 Freedom scientific Focus 40 braille >display $700.00 > >Note takers with 32-cell braille displays: >1 HIMS braille sense plus BT32 (Perkins >keyboard), $1100.00 >1 HIMS braille sense plus QT32 (QWERTY >keyboard) $900.00 >1 Braille note mPower >BT32 >$1100.00 > >First come, first serve and so call 402-491-3191, or email me at >pfischer at accessibility.net I >accept credit cards, PayPal and checks for payment > >Thank you Dave! > >Pat Fischer >CEO > >Corporate Office >Accessibility dot Net, Inc. >11110 Fort St., Suite 103 >Omaha, NE 68164 >Local: 402-491-3191 >Direct: 402-699-4357 >Toll Free: 866-539-4357 >Fax: 402-491-3221 >Web: www.accessibility.net > >Technology Solutions for the Blind and Visually Impaired > > > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 23:26:30 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:26:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] quick convention question In-Reply-To: <002801cd53d3$07ecd9a0$17c68ce0$@gmail.com> References: <002801cd53d3$07ecd9a0$17c68ce0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: To clarify, sometimes individual state affiliates have age limits for joining the student division, or for voting. National NABS has no such limits, however. Arielle On 6/26/12, nabs.president at gmail.com wrote: > Hi Sophie, > > > > Echoing what Darian, Arielle and others have already made clear, absolutely > anybody who is a student or has an interest in student issues is most > welcome to attend our meeting. NABS is especially interested in building > outreach to younger students, so we'd love to see your friend at the > meeting. Look forward to seeing you there as well. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean Whalen > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jty727 at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 23:34:12 2012 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 19:34:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Nokia Phone Message-ID: Hello to all! I recently have purchased a Nokia N82 phone with the KNFB reader software. I was wondering if any knew of a good training guide for it? Thanks as always, Justin From dandrews at visi.com Wed Jun 27 00:45:19 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 19:45:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} "You're Grate!" And more fun with homophones... Message-ID: NBP logo [] Book cover for Writer's Companion Writer's Companion A Pocket Book of Homophones In braille and eBraille: $10.00 "Keep our Second Amendment: The Right to Bare Arms!" We notice quite a few interesting spelling errors on blogs, list servs, and emails from our customers - especially homophone errors (unrelated words that sound alike but are spelled differently). So we pulled together 400 commonly confused homophones for our favorite customers. Our Writer's Companion also contains a color chart, some helpful transitional phrases, like "which is to say...," and lots of other good stuff. We saved one email that didn't bother us at all: "NBP, I think you're grate!" Order at: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/WRITERS.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html. Forward to a friend NBP logo Copyright © 2012 National Braille Press, All rights reserved. National Braille Press 88 Saint Stephen St Boston, MA 02115 Add us to your address book www.nbp.org From nabs.president at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 05:19:24 2012 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (nabs.president at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 01:19:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda Message-ID: <01d801cd5424$6b40d820$41c28860$@gmail.com> Good evening, Please find attached to this message an electronic copy of the agenda for Sunday's NABS meeting. Remember, the meeting will start promptly at 7:00, and registration will open at 6:45. Preregistration is still open, so if you want to save yourself some hassle just click right here: http://j.mp/NABS12 Preregistrants will be able to cruise through a much faster-moving line on the day of the meeting, so check it out! And, don't forget, if you are through the registration (or preregistration) line by 6:45 on Sunday, you will be double entered to win excellent door prizes, such as gift cards, cash, and an iPod Touch! The meeting will be held in the Stemmons Ballroom on the lobby level of the atrium side of the hotel. I hope to have the opportunity to meet and reconnect with many of you Sunday and throughout next week! As always, please call or write with any thoughts, questions or comments. Take care, Sean Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com www.nabslink.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NABS Agenda 2012 Final.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 16048 bytes Desc: not available URL: From todd.orlowski at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 27 07:06:44 2012 From: todd.orlowski at yahoo.co.uk (Todd Orlowski) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 02:06:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Gmail In-Reply-To: <1A51382F017543428E339B34A858ADAF@Gloria> References: <1A51382F017543428E339B34A858ADAF@Gloria> Message-ID: <713EB36B-A8AA-45BB-BBC1-845CB8151C87@yahoo.co.uk> There should be a menu drop down I do not remember exactly how to do it. However, I would recommend if possible to setup an email client such as Microsoft outlook, outlook express or mozilla thunderbird if possible it makes deleting sending and reading email that much more enjoyable with gmail. Cheers Todd Orlowski On Jun 16, 2012, at 8:05 AM, Gloria G wrote: > Hi all, > I was wondering if there was anyone who uses gmail? I saw there is a new set of options to mark messages with stars and for some reason my messages have been marked important without my doing and I am not able to place a check mark near them to erase them. Is there a way to erase all messages at one time instead of going one by one to check the box and erase them? I have my gmail message come through my outlook express and when I open outlook express and the messages come through it is suppose to be automatically erased from my gmail account, but this is not happening. Can anyone give me some pointers? > Thanks > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/todd.orlowski%40yahoo.co.uk From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 27 07:09:02 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 02:09:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda In-Reply-To: <01d801cd5424$6b40d820$41c28860$@gmail.com> References: <01d801cd5424$6b40d820$41c28860$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wow! Extremely long, huh? Two years ago, our PAD meeting was 2 hours! We just focused on elections! I guess, that the student division has more to cover, so I understand that, but why not do the elections first? Thanks, Joshua On 6/27/12, nabs.president at gmail.com wrote: > Good evening, > > > > Please find attached to this message an electronic copy of the agenda for > Sunday's NABS meeting. Remember, the meeting will start promptly at 7:00, > and registration will open at 6:45. Preregistration is still open, so if > you > want to save yourself some hassle just click right here: > > http://j.mp/NABS12 > > Preregistrants will be able to cruise through a much faster-moving line on > the day of the meeting, so check it out! > > > > And, don't forget, if you are through the registration (or preregistration) > line by 6:45 on Sunday, you will be double entered to win excellent door > prizes, such as gift cards, cash, and an iPod Touch! > > > > The meeting will be held in the Stemmons Ballroom on the lobby level of the > atrium side of the hotel. > > > > I hope to have the opportunity to meet and reconnect with many of you > Sunday > and throughout next week! > > > > As always, please call or write with any thoughts, questions or comments. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean > > > > Sean Whalen > > President, National Association of Blind Students > > (608) 332-4147 > > Nabs.president at gmail.com > > www.nabslink.org > > From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Wed Jun 27 12:06:49 2012 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:06:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda In-Reply-To: References: <01d801cd5424$6b40d820$41c28860$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wow! Apparently it seems as though nothing in life ever makes you happy. I have been to a number of different student seminars, and the time and order of this agenda does not appear to be out of the norm. In fact, I think this is a very good agenda with lots of interesting speakers, and I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say at the seminar. Different people have their own unique way of doing things, so perhaps this agenda is a bit different than the last one you attended simply because there is a new person in charge. I know it can be difficult to do sometimes, but life seems to be a bit more enjoyable when you focus on the positive things in life rather than the negative things in life. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Joshua Lester" Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:09 AM To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda > Wow! > Extremely long, huh? > Two years ago, our PAD meeting was 2 hours! > We just focused on elections! > I guess, that the student division has more to cover, so I understand > that, but why not do the elections first? > Thanks, Joshua > > On 6/27/12, nabs.president at gmail.com wrote: >> Good evening, >> >> >> >> Please find attached to this message an electronic copy of the agenda for >> Sunday's NABS meeting. Remember, the meeting will start promptly at 7:00, >> and registration will open at 6:45. Preregistration is still open, so if >> you >> want to save yourself some hassle just click right here: >> >> http://j.mp/NABS12 >> >> Preregistrants will be able to cruise through a much faster-moving line >> on >> the day of the meeting, so check it out! >> >> >> >> And, don't forget, if you are through the registration (or >> preregistration) >> line by 6:45 on Sunday, you will be double entered to win excellent door >> prizes, such as gift cards, cash, and an iPod Touch! >> >> >> >> The meeting will be held in the Stemmons Ballroom on the lobby level of >> the >> atrium side of the hotel. >> >> >> >> I hope to have the opportunity to meet and reconnect with many of you >> Sunday >> and throughout next week! >> >> >> >> As always, please call or write with any thoughts, questions or comments. >> >> >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> Sean Whalen >> >> President, National Association of Blind Students >> >> (608) 332-4147 >> >> Nabs.president at gmail.com >> >> www.nabslink.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Wed Jun 27 12:24:11 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 07:24:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda In-Reply-To: References: <01d801cd5424$6b40d820$41c28860$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've never attended a NABS meeting, because I joined, two years ago, and didn't know anything about anything. I'll be there, because I'm on the marshalling team. I'll enjoy every moment of the meeting, but it's something new to me. I'm used to the business going first, in many meetings of other civic groups, so I'm just surprised that they've moved elections, to the last on the agenda. I'm not complaining though. Blessings, Joshua On 6/27/12, Elizabeth wrote: > Wow! Apparently it seems as though nothing in life ever makes you happy. I > have been to a number of different student seminars, and the time and order > > of this agenda does not appear to be out of the norm. In fact, I think this > > is a very good agenda with lots of interesting speakers, and I look forward > > to hearing what everyone has to say at the seminar. Different people have > their own unique way of doing things, so perhaps this agenda is a bit > different than the last one you attended simply because there is a new > person in charge. I know it can be difficult to do sometimes, but life seems > > to be a bit more enjoyable when you focus on the positive things in life > rather than the negative things in life. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Joshua Lester" > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:09 AM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda > >> Wow! >> Extremely long, huh? >> Two years ago, our PAD meeting was 2 hours! >> We just focused on elections! >> I guess, that the student division has more to cover, so I understand >> that, but why not do the elections first? >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 6/27/12, nabs.president at gmail.com wrote: >>> Good evening, >>> >>> >>> >>> Please find attached to this message an electronic copy of the agenda >>> for >>> Sunday's NABS meeting. Remember, the meeting will start promptly at >>> 7:00, >>> and registration will open at 6:45. Preregistration is still open, so if >>> you >>> want to save yourself some hassle just click right here: >>> >>> http://j.mp/NABS12 >>> >>> Preregistrants will be able to cruise through a much faster-moving line >>> on >>> the day of the meeting, so check it out! >>> >>> >>> >>> And, don't forget, if you are through the registration (or >>> preregistration) >>> line by 6:45 on Sunday, you will be double entered to win excellent door >>> prizes, such as gift cards, cash, and an iPod Touch! >>> >>> >>> >>> The meeting will be held in the Stemmons Ballroom on the lobby level of >>> the >>> atrium side of the hotel. >>> >>> >>> >>> I hope to have the opportunity to meet and reconnect with many of you >>> Sunday >>> and throughout next week! >>> >>> >>> >>> As always, please call or write with any thoughts, questions or >>> comments. >>> >>> >>> >>> Take care, >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean Whalen >>> >>> President, National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> (608) 332-4147 >>> >>> Nabs.president at gmail.com >>> >>> www.nabslink.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dandrews at visi.com Wed Jun 27 16:03:30 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:03:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Utah Association of Blind Students fundraiser Message-ID: > > >The Utah Association of Blind Students will be selling shot glasses >and seat cushions durring the 2012 NFB Convention. The shot glasses >feature the Whozit inside a silhouette of the state of Utah. The >shot glasses sell for $5. The seat cushions come in red and blue, >and feature the Whozit logo, and reading UABS. Utah Association of >Blind Students. A division of the National Federation of the Blind. >The seat cushions also sell for $5. Both items are in limited supply. >We will be taking cash, as well as major credit cards at the convention. > >James Bybee >UABS Secretary >ututes76 at gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 17:35:58 2012 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:35:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Everyone Message-ID: <4feb4481.a9aaec0a.3fc7.1618@mx.google.com> Hello Bradon I made a mistake in my last email. My favorite hobbies are singing reading and listening to music. I hope you all have a wonderful time the Convention this weekend and next week. Can't wait to read about when you get back? From nabs.president at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 17:41:01 2012 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (nabs.president at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:41:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Correction: NABS Registration opens at 6:15 on July 1 Message-ID: <015901cd548c$05b33e40$1119bac0$@gmail.com> With apologies for my oversight, here is a corrected version of the announcement I sent out last night. The original message mistakenly indicated that registration opens at 6:45. In fact, registration will open at 6:15. 6:45 is the cut off for early registration and double door prize entry. Here is the corrected version of the announcement below. Remember, you can still preregister at: http://j.mp/NABS12 Sean Good evening, Please find attached to this message an electronic copy of the agenda for Sunday's NABS meeting. Remember, the meeting will start promptly at 7:00, and registration will open at 6:15. Preregistration is still open, so if you want to save yourself some hassle just click right here: http://j.mp/NABS12 Preregistrants will be able to cruise through a much faster-moving line on the day of the meeting, so check it out! And, don't forget, if you are through the registration (or preregistration) line by 6:45 on Sunday, you will be double entered to win excellent door prizes, such as gift cards, cash, and an iPod Touch! The meeting will be held in the Stemmons Ballroom on the lobby level of the atrium side of the hotel. I hope to have the opportunity to meet and reconnect with many of you Sunday and throughout next week! As always, please call or write with any thoughts, questions or comments. Take care, Sean Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com www.nabslink.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NABS Agenda 2012 Final.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 16048 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dandrews at visi.com Wed Jun 27 18:18:31 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:18:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: sleeping room reservation available Message-ID: >From: "Fredric Schroeder" > >The NFB of Virginia has a sleeping room reserved for convention that is no >longer needed. >If anyone would like to take the reservation, please contact Mark Roane at >(318)243-6445 before noon on Friday June 29. From PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu Wed Jun 27 19:28:37 2012 From: PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu (Justin Salisbury) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:28:37 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Xbox 360 Accessibility Message-ID: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7F7A93@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Dear List: I was asked yesterday to research accessibility issues with the Xbox 360 for a meeting at the national convention. I am seeking two main pieces of information: 1. Services beyond gaming offered via the Xbox 360 2. Accessibility barriers to those services If you have any information that may be helpful to me, please contact me directly at president at alumni.ecu.edu Thank you in advance! Justin Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD From trillian551 at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 19:44:55 2012 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:44:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Today! Don't miss the 2012 candidates forum!!! Message-ID: Hi All! The much awaited NABS candidates forum is finally here! Today at 8 PM, prepare to hear your candidates fight it out as they answer questions that you, the NABS membership have created! The questions are sizzling with intensity, the issues are fascinating in their complexities! It's an event you cannot afford to miss! To participate please call: Teleconference Number: 1 (619) 326-2700 access code 733-7548 I will be calling the meeting to order at 8:00 PM sharp, so please call in 5 minutes early! There is a lot to cover, so timeliness is of the essence! Remember this is eastern standard time! So set your alarms, take a deep breath, pop the corn, mute your phones (we don't want to hear you crunching away), and prepare for a forum that will go down in the NABS history books... I'd be remiss if I didn't take the time to thank all of you that took the time to submit questions. This year we had over 35 questions submitted in all. Thank you so so much. Question, comments, concerns? Talk to me! Sincerely, Mary -- Mary Fernandez Emory 2012 "A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes up her burdens and walks toward the future." -- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich From tyler at tysdomain.com Wed Jun 27 19:58:54 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:58:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Xbox 360 Accessibility In-Reply-To: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7F7A93@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7F7A93@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <4FEB65FE.5020203@tysdomain.com> The XBox is a custom platform, most of everything runs on the .net framework. Since it supports reflection (being .net), making it accessible shouldn't be a huge issue. It is not, however currently accessible. There are a few platforms that work on XBox, Netflix, for example. Apart from gaming you also have music and the like as well. Alternative solutions exist to this though; appleTV is a lot cheaper and still allows for netflix, and through ITunes you can just stream your music across the local network. I do not see much of a point in making this platform accessible, until (and unless) someone decides to write audio games for it. There are games that can be played if you sit down and figure them out, but from this point it seems more cost effective to just write games for the PC. On 6/27/2012 1:28 PM, Justin Salisbury wrote: > Dear List: > > I was asked yesterday to research accessibility issues with the Xbox 360 for a meeting at the national convention. > > I am seeking two main pieces of information: > > 1. Services beyond gaming offered via the Xbox 360 > 2. Accessibility barriers to those services > > If you have any information that may be helpful to me, please contact me directly at > > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > Thank you in advance! > > Justin > > Justin M. Salisbury > Class of 2012 > B.A. in Mathematics > East Carolina University > president at alumni.ecu.edu > > “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From tyler at tysdomain.com Wed Jun 27 20:02:09 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 14:02:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Xbox 360 Accessibility In-Reply-To: <4FEB65FE.5020203@tysdomain.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7F7A93@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <4FEB65FE.5020203@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <4FEB66C1.8050505@tysdomain.com> I wanted to throw something else out, too. A lot of the games that use the XNA framework can also run on the PC, so making audio games work on this wouldn't be to hard, if that helps much with the accessibility deal. There will need to be some sort of self voicing deal to start the games though, depending on how you distribute them, which as far as I'm aware is not built into the XBox yet. HTH, On 6/27/2012 1:58 PM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > The XBox is a custom platform, most of everything runs on the .net > framework. Since it supports reflection (being .net), making it > accessible shouldn't be a huge issue. It is not, however currently > accessible. There are a few platforms that work on XBox, Netflix, for > example. Apart from gaming you also have music and the like as well. > Alternative solutions exist to this though; appleTV is a lot cheaper > and still allows for netflix, and through ITunes you can just stream > your music across the local network. > > I do not see much of a point in making this platform accessible, until > (and unless) someone decides to write audio games for it. There are > games that can be played if you sit down and figure them out, but from > this point it seems more cost effective to just write games for the PC. > On 6/27/2012 1:28 PM, Justin Salisbury wrote: >> Dear List: >> >> I was asked yesterday to research accessibility issues with the Xbox >> 360 for a meeting at the national convention. >> >> I am seeking two main pieces of information: >> >> 1. Services beyond gaming offered via the Xbox 360 >> 2. Accessibility barriers to those services >> >> If you have any information that may be helpful to me, please contact >> me directly at >> >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> Thank you in advance! >> >> Justin >> >> Justin M. Salisbury >> Class of 2012 >> B.A. in Mathematics >> East Carolina University >> president at alumni.ecu.edu >> >> “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can >> change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” >> —MARGARET MEAD >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> > > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 20:06:20 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:06:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Xbox 360 Accessibility In-Reply-To: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7F7A93@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D8892430F7F7A93@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hello, You may want to talk to Chase Crispin, he's the one who did videos on the Wii: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Sl1KxcMpU Also read and ask around the Audio games forums at: http://forum.audiogames.net/ They have lots on playing the XBox there Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Justin Salisbury Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:28 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org ; ncabs at nfbnet.org ; nfbofnc at nfbnet.org ; ct-nfb at nfbnet.org ; nfb-science at nfbnet.org ; massabs at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Xbox 360 Accessibility Dear List: I was asked yesterday to research accessibility issues with the Xbox 360 for a meeting at the national convention. I am seeking two main pieces of information: 1. Services beyond gaming offered via the Xbox 360 2. Accessibility barriers to those services If you have any information that may be helpful to me, please contact me directly at president at alumni.ecu.edu Thank you in advance! Justin Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 21:15:40 2012 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:15:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Xbox 360 Accessibility Message-ID: <4feb7820.07e1640a.36d2.2e66@mx.google.com> Hmmmmm,=20I=20know=20a=20blind=20gamer=20who=20does=20PlayStation,=20but=20= I=20know=20 it's=20not=20the=20game=20platform=20you=20were=20talking=20about.=20=20I=20= don't=20 exactly=20know=20how=20the=20dude=20plays=20his=20games,=20but=20he=20has=20= playstation=20 network=20and=20others.=20=20I=20love=20RS=20GAmes=20and=20audio=20games=20= for=20PC.=20=20 Anyone=20heard=20of=20Cringle=20Crash?=20=20Maybe=20I=20should=20probably=20= play=20that=20 game=20if=20it's=20good=20with=20the=20Mac.=20...=20Anybody=20want=20to=20c= ollaborate=20 ..=20elaborate? Beth =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20"Littlefield,=20Tyler"=20 References: Message-ID: LABS (in Lousiana) is doing something similar. We're raffling off an iPad. Tickets are $5. We're selling a limited number.t Sent from my iPhone On Jun 27, 2012, at 11:03 AM, David Andrews wrote: > >> >> >> The Utah Association of Blind Students will be selling shot glasses and seat cushions durring the 2012 NFB Convention. The shot glasses feature the Whozit inside a silhouette of the state of Utah. The shot glasses sell for $5. The seat cushions come in red and blue, and feature the Whozit logo, and reading UABS. Utah Association of Blind Students. A division of the National Federation of the Blind. The seat cushions also sell for $5. Both items are in limited supply. >> We will be taking cash, as well as major credit cards at the convention. >> >> James Bybee >> UABS Secretary >> ututes76 at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 22:26:01 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:26:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda In-Reply-To: References: <01d801cd5424$6b40d820$41c28860$@gmail.com> Message-ID: At our last division meeting, we did elections last. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 27, 2012, at 7:24 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > I've never attended a NABS meeting, because I joined, two years ago, > and didn't know anything about anything. > I'll be there, because I'm on the marshalling team. > I'll enjoy every moment of the meeting, but it's something new to me. > I'm used to the business going first, in many meetings of other civic > groups, so I'm just surprised that they've moved elections, to the > last on the agenda. > I'm not complaining though. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/27/12, Elizabeth wrote: >> Wow! Apparently it seems as though nothing in life ever makes you happy. I >> have been to a number of different student seminars, and the time and order >> >> of this agenda does not appear to be out of the norm. In fact, I think this >> >> is a very good agenda with lots of interesting speakers, and I look forward >> >> to hearing what everyone has to say at the seminar. Different people have >> their own unique way of doing things, so perhaps this agenda is a bit >> different than the last one you attended simply because there is a new >> person in charge. I know it can be difficult to do sometimes, but life seems >> >> to be a bit more enjoyable when you focus on the positive things in life >> rather than the negative things in life. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:09 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda >> >>> Wow! >>> Extremely long, huh? >>> Two years ago, our PAD meeting was 2 hours! >>> We just focused on elections! >>> I guess, that the student division has more to cover, so I understand >>> that, but why not do the elections first? >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> >>> On 6/27/12, nabs.president at gmail.com wrote: >>>> Good evening, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please find attached to this message an electronic copy of the agenda >>>> for >>>> Sunday's NABS meeting. Remember, the meeting will start promptly at >>>> 7:00, >>>> and registration will open at 6:45. Preregistration is still open, so if >>>> you >>>> want to save yourself some hassle just click right here: >>>> >>>> http://j.mp/NABS12 >>>> >>>> Preregistrants will be able to cruise through a much faster-moving line >>>> on >>>> the day of the meeting, so check it out! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And, don't forget, if you are through the registration (or >>>> preregistration) >>>> line by 6:45 on Sunday, you will be double entered to win excellent door >>>> prizes, such as gift cards, cash, and an iPod Touch! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The meeting will be held in the Stemmons Ballroom on the lobby level of >>>> the >>>> atrium side of the hotel. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I hope to have the opportunity to meet and reconnect with many of you >>>> Sunday >>>> and throughout next week! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As always, please call or write with any thoughts, questions or >>>> comments. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Take care, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean Whalen >>>> >>>> President, National Association of Blind Students >>>> >>>> (608) 332-4147 >>>> >>>> Nabs.president at gmail.com >>>> >>>> www.nabslink.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com From pgradioman at hotmail.com Wed Jun 27 23:45:22 2012 From: pgradioman at hotmail.com (Preston Gaylor) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 18:45:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Message-ID: http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 23:48:01 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 16:48:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Today! Don't miss the 2012 candidates forum!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C1B6150E40B4C6BB3EDF8BE8977DB67@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, I think you said something earlier about how to mute our phones if we don't have a mute button? Is there an option we push, or number we call that will keep us muted on the call? Also, I believe the call starts in 10 mins if I'm not mistaken? Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Mary Fernandez Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:44 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; Presidents ; New Jersey Association of Blind Students ; GABS Subject: [nabs-l] Today! Don't miss the 2012 candidates forum!!! Hi All! The much awaited NABS candidates forum is finally here! Today at 8 PM, prepare to hear your candidates fight it out as they answer questions that you, the NABS membership have created! The questions are sizzling with intensity, the issues are fascinating in their complexities! It's an event you cannot afford to miss! To participate please call: Teleconference Number: 1 (619) 326-2700 access code 733-7548 I will be calling the meeting to order at 8:00 PM sharp, so please call in 5 minutes early! There is a lot to cover, so timeliness is of the essence! Remember this is eastern standard time! So set your alarms, take a deep breath, pop the corn, mute your phones (we don't want to hear you crunching away), and prepare for a forum that will go down in the NABS history books... I'd be remiss if I didn't take the time to thank all of you that took the time to submit questions. This year we had over 35 questions submitted in all. Thank you so so much. Question, comments, concerns? Talk to me! Sincerely, Mary -- Mary Fernandez Emory 2012 "A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes up her burdens and walks toward the future." -- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 23:49:19 2012 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 16:49:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Preston. What's this link? On 6/27/12, Preston Gaylor wrote: > > http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From clb5590 at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 23:54:51 2012 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cynthia Bennett) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 16:54:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Today! Don't miss the 2012 candidates forum!!! In-Reply-To: <3C1B6150E40B4C6BB3EDF8BE8977DB67@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <3C1B6150E40B4C6BB3EDF8BE8977DB67@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: I've never used this line, but *6 usually works. And yes, it starts at 8 eastern. Cindy On 6/27/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > I think you said something earlier about how to mute our phones if we don't > > have a mute button? > Is there an option we push, or number we call that will keep us muted on the > > call? > Also, I believe the call starts in 10 mins if I'm not mistaken? > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Mary Fernandez > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:44 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; Presidents ; New > Jersey Association of Blind Students ; GABS > Subject: [nabs-l] Today! Don't miss the 2012 candidates forum!!! > > Hi All! > The much awaited NABS candidates forum is finally here! Today at 8 PM, > prepare to hear your candidates fight it out as they answer questions > that you, the NABS membership have created! The questions are sizzling > with intensity, the issues are fascinating in their complexities! It's > an event you cannot afford to miss! > To participate please call: > Teleconference Number: 1 (619) 326-2700 > access code 733-7548 > I will be calling the meeting to order at 8:00 PM sharp, so please > call in 5 minutes early! There is a lot to cover, so timeliness is of > the essence! > Remember this is eastern standard time! So set your alarms, take a > deep breath, pop the corn, mute your phones (we don't want to hear you > crunching away), and prepare for a forum that will go down in the NABS > history books... > I'd be remiss if I didn't take the time to thank all of you that took > the time to submit questions. This year we had over 35 questions > submitted in all. Thank you so so much. > Question, comments, concerns? Talk to me! > Sincerely, > Mary > -- > Mary Fernandez > Emory 2012 > "A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes > up her burdens and walks toward the future." > -- > Laurel Thatcher Ulrich > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cynthia Bennett B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 00:38:17 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:38:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00bc01cd54c6$503e9970$f0bbcc50$@gmail.com> This must be spam! I've seen this also on the jobs list. Someone sending messages with "no subject" and a link that, of course, I never click because it is a stranger's link. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Preston Gaylor Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:45 PM To: katy at wayz.com; grammydar46 at hotmail.com; berchfrankdet at hotmail.com; alejandragasm at hotmail.com; nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 00:44:00 2012 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:44:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <00bc01cd54c6$503e9970$f0bbcc50$@gmail.com> References: <00bc01cd54c6$503e9970$f0bbcc50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: That, Humberto, is precisely the reason I asked. On 6/27/12, Humberto Avila wrote: > This must be spam! I've seen this also on the jobs list. Someone sending > messages with "no subject" and a link that, of course, I never click > because > it is a stranger's link. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Preston Gaylor > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:45 PM > To: katy at wayz.com; grammydar46 at hotmail.com; berchfrankdet at hotmail.com; > alejandragasm at hotmail.com; nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) > > > http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 00:44:28 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:44:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00bd01cd54c7$2d67e0e0$8837a2a0$@gmail.com> Greg, don't ever click it. It must be some spammer who is trying to get a hold of our e-mail accounts. I'm not saying this is true, it's what I think. I've seen this before yesterday on another nfbNet.org list. Whoever is trying to hijack e-mail addresses, needs to be gone by actions taken by the owners of the accounts. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh gregory Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) Hey Preston. What's this link? On 6/27/12, Preston Gaylor wrote: > > http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 00:51:06 2012 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:51:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <00bd01cd54c7$2d67e0e0$8837a2a0$@gmail.com> References: <00bd01cd54c7$2d67e0e0$8837a2a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey, it's Josh, but it's cool. I'm called other things all the time, lol. On 6/27/12, Humberto Avila wrote: > Greg, don't ever click it. It must be some spammer who is trying to get a > hold of our e-mail accounts. I'm not saying this is true, it's what I > think. > I've seen this before yesterday on another nfbNet.org list. Whoever is > trying to hijack e-mail addresses, needs to be gone by actions taken by the > owners of the accounts. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of josh gregory > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:49 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) > > Hey Preston. What's this link? > > On 6/27/12, Preston Gaylor wrote: >> >> http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Ways to Connect with me: > > facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo > > twitter.com/joshg93 > Skype: joshgregory93 > FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Thu Jun 28 01:47:31 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:47:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Nagdu needing a braille writer from Sunday through Tuesday Message-ID: > >The National Association of Guide Dog Users is in need of a braille writer >to use at our exhibit hall table from Sunday through Tuesday. If there is >someone who has one, and is driving to the convention, we would very much >appreciate borrowing it for those three days. My email address is >sherrill.obrien at verizon.net > > Thanks very much to anyone who can help us with this dilemma. > >Sherrill O'Brien, Secretary >National Association of Guide Dog Users From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 02:02:54 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 22:02:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007b01cd54d2$22857790$679066b0$@gmail.com> Hey Preston, Looks like your email account has gotten hacked, dude. At least that's what I think when I see an email with no subject and nothing in the message body but a link that I don't recognize. You might want to look into this, as my mom's email was hacked yesterday and whoever this spammer was was sending emails like this one to all her contacts. Try changing your password; this usually solves the problem. In case you don't get this email, I'll give you a call tomorrow. In the meantime, I'd advise the rest of you on this list to not click on this link, as we have no idea where it leads, and to watch out for these kinds of emails in the future. A few friends and relatives of mine have recently had their email and Facebook accounts hacked and these spammers are sending the victim's contact list a bunch of emails with no subject and only a link. So, I would advise you to be careful and don't click on links that show up in emails with no subject with the link being the only thing in the message. Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Preston Gaylor Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:45 PM To: katy at wayz.com; grammydar46 at hotmail.com; berchfrankdet at hotmail.com; alejandragasm at hotmail.com; nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 02:07:21 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 22:07:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda In-Reply-To: References: <01d801cd5424$6b40d820$41c28860$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008101cd54d2$c1a69e80$44f3db80$@gmail.com> That was probably a good thing, as from what I hear, the elections took a really long time last year! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda At our last division meeting, we did elections last. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 27, 2012, at 7:24 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > I've never attended a NABS meeting, because I joined, two years ago, > and didn't know anything about anything. > I'll be there, because I'm on the marshalling team. > I'll enjoy every moment of the meeting, but it's something new to me. > I'm used to the business going first, in many meetings of other civic > groups, so I'm just surprised that they've moved elections, to the > last on the agenda. > I'm not complaining though. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/27/12, Elizabeth wrote: >> Wow! Apparently it seems as though nothing in life ever makes you >> happy. I have been to a number of different student seminars, and the >> time and order >> >> of this agenda does not appear to be out of the norm. In fact, I >> think this >> >> is a very good agenda with lots of interesting speakers, and I look >> forward >> >> to hearing what everyone has to say at the seminar. Different people >> have their own unique way of doing things, so perhaps this agenda is >> a bit different than the last one you attended simply because there >> is a new person in charge. I know it can be difficult to do >> sometimes, but life seems >> >> to be a bit more enjoyable when you focus on the positive things in >> life rather than the negative things in life. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Joshua Lester" >> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:09 AM >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda >> >>> Wow! >>> Extremely long, huh? >>> Two years ago, our PAD meeting was 2 hours! >>> We just focused on elections! >>> I guess, that the student division has more to cover, so I >>> understand that, but why not do the elections first? >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> >>> On 6/27/12, nabs.president at gmail.com wrote: >>>> Good evening, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please find attached to this message an electronic copy of the >>>> agenda for Sunday's NABS meeting. Remember, the meeting will start >>>> promptly at 7:00, and registration will open at 6:45. >>>> Preregistration is still open, so if you want to save yourself some >>>> hassle just click right here: >>>> >>>> http://j.mp/NABS12 >>>> >>>> Preregistrants will be able to cruise through a much faster-moving >>>> line on the day of the meeting, so check it out! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And, don't forget, if you are through the registration (or >>>> preregistration) >>>> line by 6:45 on Sunday, you will be double entered to win excellent >>>> door prizes, such as gift cards, cash, and an iPod Touch! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The meeting will be held in the Stemmons Ballroom on the lobby >>>> level of the atrium side of the hotel. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I hope to have the opportunity to meet and reconnect with many of >>>> you Sunday and throughout next week! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As always, please call or write with any thoughts, questions or >>>> comments. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Take care, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean Whalen >>>> >>>> President, National Association of Blind Students >>>> >>>> (608) 332-4147 >>>> >>>> Nabs.president at gmail.com >>>> >>>> www.nabslink.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotm >>> ail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stu >> dents.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 02:13:24 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:13:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <007b01cd54d2$22857790$679066b0$@gmail.com> References: <007b01cd54d2$22857790$679066b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d001cd54d3$9a031ba0$ce0952e0$@gmail.com> thank you so much, Chris, like always. Yet my curiosity doesn't kill my cat, and I wonder how in the world these hackers are capable of guessing passwords for email accounts. My gMail password is strong and long. I wonder if they can also hack my account? Hope not. But I won't ever ever give it out, not even in Braille! (smile). -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:03 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) Hey Preston, Looks like your email account has gotten hacked, dude. At least that's what I think when I see an email with no subject and nothing in the message body but a link that I don't recognize. You might want to look into this, as my mom's email was hacked yesterday and whoever this spammer was was sending emails like this one to all her contacts. Try changing your password; this usually solves the problem. In case you don't get this email, I'll give you a call tomorrow. In the meantime, I'd advise the rest of you on this list to not click on this link, as we have no idea where it leads, and to watch out for these kinds of emails in the future. A few friends and relatives of mine have recently had their email and Facebook accounts hacked and these spammers are sending the victim's contact list a bunch of emails with no subject and only a link. So, I would advise you to be careful and don't click on links that show up in emails with no subject with the link being the only thing in the message. Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Preston Gaylor Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:45 PM To: katy at wayz.com; grammydar46 at hotmail.com; berchfrankdet at hotmail.com; alejandragasm at hotmail.com; nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 02:15:31 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:15:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Meeting Agenda and Elections Message-ID: Hi all, I believe that President Sean Whalen and the current NABS board have produced an excellent agenda for this year's business meeting, and I dare say, stronger than either of the agendas put out by my administration. I like the idea of dividing the scholarship winner introductions into thirds rather than doing them all at once, and I believe that the current leadership have done well in balancing information with inspiration. The NABS meetings are long because we try to pack them full of both information (i.e. updates from Learning Ally, BookShare, ETS etc.) and inspiration (i.e. stories from blind students, youth program participants, etc.) As NABS president I know I was often inundated with requests from our partners to share information, and I admit that I struggled to pack enough inspiration into our meetings. I think the current president and board have lived up to this task and I am excited to see what they have in store for us. As for elections, I believe doing them last is appropriate because it is hard to predict exactly how long elections will take. The length depends on the number of candidates running for each position, which can be difficult to predict in advance. Holding elections at the end ensures that scheduled speakers don't have to wait if elections go overtime. Speaking of, many of you may recall that in past NABS meetings elections have taken a long time,and last year's was epic. While this can be tiring, I think the long elections have been a good sign of a healthy organization in which many members are interested in serving the organization by holding elected offices. This year, for the first time, the board will be fully staggered, meaning that only half the board (three officers and two board members) will be up for election, which will shorten the election process considerably. However, I expect and hope that several of you will seek elected office if you believe you have the time, talent and dedication to offer your leadership and service to us. More important, as I have said before, I hope that those of you who run but are not elected will still serve the organization through working in your state student divisions or volunteering on national NABS committees. On tonight's election forum call, I was pleased to hear that both presidential candidates (who worked closely together as my vice-presidents) are willing to continue collaborating in the leadership of NABS regardless of the outcome of the presidential contest. Let's keep NABS a place that invites the leadership contributions and ideas of all members, and that preserves goodwill among all regardless of how the elections turn out. Looking forward to seeing you in Dallas, Arielle Silverman, Past NABS President 2009-2011 From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 02:22:29 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 22:22:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <00d001cd54d3$9a031ba0$ce0952e0$@gmail.com> References: <007b01cd54d2$22857790$679066b0$@gmail.com> <00d001cd54d3$9a031ba0$ce0952e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008a01cd54d4$dee6ccc0$9cb46640$@gmail.com> Good idea! Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Avila Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:13 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) thank you so much, Chris, like always. Yet my curiosity doesn't kill my cat, and I wonder how in the world these hackers are capable of guessing passwords for email accounts. My gMail password is strong and long. I wonder if they can also hack my account? Hope not. But I won't ever ever give it out, not even in Braille! (smile). -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:03 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) Hey Preston, Looks like your email account has gotten hacked, dude. At least that's what I think when I see an email with no subject and nothing in the message body but a link that I don't recognize. You might want to look into this, as my mom's email was hacked yesterday and whoever this spammer was was sending emails like this one to all her contacts. Try changing your password; this usually solves the problem. In case you don't get this email, I'll give you a call tomorrow. In the meantime, I'd advise the rest of you on this list to not click on this link, as we have no idea where it leads, and to watch out for these kinds of emails in the future. A few friends and relatives of mine have recently had their email and Facebook accounts hacked and these spammers are sending the victim's contact list a bunch of emails with no subject and only a link. So, I would advise you to be careful and don't click on links that show up in emails with no subject with the link being the only thing in the message. Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Preston Gaylor Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:45 PM To: katy at wayz.com; grammydar46 at hotmail.com; berchfrankdet at hotmail.com; alejandragasm at hotmail.com; nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 02:26:45 2012 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:26:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Reducing List Clutter Message-ID: Hi all, It's nice to give Preston a heads-up that his email account was hacked. However, he only needs to hear this from one person. I would respectfully ask that everyone please read all the NABS messages before replying, so you don't duplicate something that someone else has already posted. Better yet, write him off-list. BTW, while I'm not the moderator, I would also respectfully ask that folks write others off-list directly when you want to have a conversation, rather than asking the other person to write you off-list. This gesture will further reduce the number of list messages we receive each day. To write someone off-list, just search for the sender's email address (if you're using Gmail or Webmail, just do a find command and search for their name) and cut and paste their email address into your new message. If you use a client such as Outlook, there should be a "Reply to Sender" feature, or if not, the sender's email address should be in the "From" field of your message. Best, Arielle On 6/27/12, Humberto Avila wrote: > thank you so much, Chris, like always. Yet my curiosity doesn't kill my > cat, > and I wonder how in the world these hackers are capable of guessing > passwords for email accounts. My gMail password is strong and long. I > wonder > if they can also hack my account? Hope not. But I won't ever ever give it > out, not even in Braille! (smile). > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:03 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) > > Hey Preston, > > Looks like your email account has gotten hacked, dude. At least that's what > I think when I see an email with no subject and nothing in the message body > but a link that I don't recognize. You might want to look into this, as my > mom's email was hacked yesterday and whoever this spammer was was sending > emails like this one to all her contacts. Try changing your password; this > usually solves the problem. In case you don't get this email, I'll give you > a call tomorrow. > > In the meantime, I'd advise the rest of you on this list to not click on > this link, as we have no idea where it leads, and to watch out for these > kinds of emails in the future. A few friends and relatives of mine have > recently had their email and Facebook accounts hacked and these spammers > are > sending the victim's contact list a bunch of emails with no subject and > only > a link. So, I would advise you to be careful and don't click on links that > show up in emails with no subject with the link being the only thing in the > message. > > Thanks, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Preston Gaylor > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:45 PM > To: katy at wayz.com; grammydar46 at hotmail.com; berchfrankdet at hotmail.com; > alejandragasm at hotmail.com; nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) > > > http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 02:52:56 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 22:52:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <00bc01cd54c6$503e9970$f0bbcc50$@gmail.com> References: <00bc01cd54c6$503e9970$f0bbcc50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <139FC0FC00BE459C8BE1BE3921F5E0D6@OwnerPC> its either spam or a virus. I reiterate to everyone not to click on links you do not know where they go to. Hope Preston gets his email fixed soon. -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:38 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) This must be spam! I've seen this also on the jobs list. Someone sending messages with "no subject" and a link that, of course, I never click because it is a stranger's link. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Preston Gaylor Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:45 PM To: katy at wayz.com; grammydar46 at hotmail.com; berchfrankdet at hotmail.com; alejandragasm at hotmail.com; nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 03:07:07 2012 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:07:07 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <00d001cd54d3$9a031ba0$ce0952e0$@gmail.com> References: <007b01cd54d2$22857790$679066b0$@gmail.com> <00d001cd54d3$9a031ba0$ce0952e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris and all: While I understand your intent, I advise that we not take this further. Nope, I'm no mod. But, we could be leading these guys on, which is exactly the opposite of what we want to do. On 6/27/12, Humberto Avila wrote: > thank you so much, Chris, like always. Yet my curiosity doesn't kill my > cat, > and I wonder how in the world these hackers are capable of guessing > passwords for email accounts. My gMail password is strong and long. I > wonder > if they can also hack my account? Hope not. But I won't ever ever give it > out, not even in Braille! (smile). > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:03 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) > > Hey Preston, > > Looks like your email account has gotten hacked, dude. At least that's what > I think when I see an email with no subject and nothing in the message body > but a link that I don't recognize. You might want to look into this, as my > mom's email was hacked yesterday and whoever this spammer was was sending > emails like this one to all her contacts. Try changing your password; this > usually solves the problem. In case you don't get this email, I'll give you > a call tomorrow. > > In the meantime, I'd advise the rest of you on this list to not click on > this link, as we have no idea where it leads, and to watch out for these > kinds of emails in the future. A few friends and relatives of mine have > recently had their email and Facebook accounts hacked and these spammers > are > sending the victim's contact list a bunch of emails with no subject and > only > a link. So, I would advise you to be careful and don't click on links that > show up in emails with no subject with the link being the only thing in the > message. > > Thanks, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Preston Gaylor > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:45 PM > To: katy at wayz.com; grammydar46 at hotmail.com; berchfrankdet at hotmail.com; > alejandragasm at hotmail.com; nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) > > > http://spmenlinea.com/dump/googlesave.html?wu=vby.mig&rth=ghj.gr&hh=ihap > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From trillian551 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 03:44:48 2012 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:44:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Candidates Forum Thanks! Message-ID: Hi All! Thank you so so so much to all of you who participated in the candidates' forum tonight! We had 39 callers in all! I have it on good authority that this, once again, was the best attended NABS call of the year. Thanks to Scott LaBarre for doing an incredible job of moderating, and sharing with us much wisdom. Thanks to Sean Whalen, Karen Anderson, Darian Smith and Cindy Bennett for being such good candidates. Their leadership is truly appreciated. Without their hard work, their passion for the work that goes into the Federation, and their willingness to give of their time to advance the future of blind students, we would not be where we are today. Just a few household type things. 1. I am attaching the list of questions which the candidates answered tonight. 2. If you were on the call tonight, feel free to contact me off list with any thoughts, comments, or suggestions that you may have. I have coordinated this for the last two years, and would love to get ideas from you guys. 3. I am intending to help organize this event next year as well, and would love, if anyone is interested in helping, to hear from you. Of course, this is 365 days from now, so no rush. Just keep it in the back of your mind... Thanks again for helping this be a successful event. Share with your friends what you thought of it! This is a forum which is meant to stimulate positive and informed discussion among the student body. So, don't be shy with your thoughts! Sincerely, Mary -- Mary Fernandez Emory 2012 "A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes up her burdens and walks toward the future." -- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: candidates forum questions.doc Type: application/msword Size: 30720 bytes Desc: not available URL: From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 05:05:30 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 22:05:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my Behalf? Message-ID: <001001cd54eb$a4e8a450$eeb9ecf0$@gmail.com> Hello everybody: My sincere apologies for cross posting this message to all lists I'm subscribed to, and also if I am off topic. I wanted to write in regards to a recent activity I have seen on listserves, where apparently a member of the list sends an email message with no subject and a strange link in the body of the message. Unless that member really intended to send the message, someone hacking e-mail accounts probably causes this and it is spreading spam. Did anyone happen to see any message that looks strange or with no subject, under my name or email address? I am not someone who is just wanting to scream out and share widely my findings just because I find this kind of stuff on any list, nor am I the moderator what so ever. However, the reason I am asking this question is because, this evening, I happen to look at my account activity under my gMail account and something noticed my attention. As I was looking at the last activity, a saw a table with 3 columns and about 12 or so rows. The table summarizes the type of activity, whether it is use of browser, mail client, or some other, then a row with the location and IP address, and the date and time accessed. Usually, this lists my preferred methods of accessing gmail, which is through outlook and firefox, and then the IP address of my computer which was pretty much the same. Under the location row, the page displays the info in the form, for example, "united States (WA) (66.189.2.)", meaning that is coming from Washington State in the USA, and is my computer's IP address. However, in one of the rows, the information displayed was something like "United States (CA) (66.200.)". It appears that somebody from California had access to my account and this is not my IP address. Back on topic for these lists, blind people are getting more and more access to technology and information as well as the sighted population in this world. We use e-mail every day to communicate as well as social media. Therefore, fellow blind computer users, I would like to give you a piece of recommendation to you out of courtesy. If you notice something spreading like this across your contacts (this includes e-mail addresses of lists you put out as contacts in your webmail address book), like this "no subject-and-link" thing, please check your webmail site for your last account activity, or whatever is called on your specific webmail provider or email provider. To you gMail users, look for the text, "last account activity" on any page and there should be any link there to take you to the activity using whatever page view you prefer using, either Basic html or Standard. To all others, look for a similar text under your webmail pages and see if you notice any unusual activity like this. This may be that some clever spammer is breaking into your account and knows how to get your password. If so, please change your password so this does not happen. I am only sending this out for your information and to make sure there is no further identity theft if this is to continue in more depth. We should protect our accounts, not just our e-mail accounts, so that these things do not occur in the future. If you see any suspicious activities, please take action. Again, thank you for reading this and I am sorry if this goes too off-topic. If you want to reply about this matter, please do so off-list. Sincerely, Humberto From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 07:09:44 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 00:09:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone using SuperShuttle at Convention? Message-ID: Hello, I'm wondering if anyone is planning on using Super shuttle to get from the airport to the Hilton Hotel? I'm arriving at the Fort worth airport at 12:30 on the 30th and it would be cool if there could be a group of us students heading out on the same bus! For those of you who haven't heard: For Anyone flying to National Convention, To use the Super Shuttle service, you have to make a reservation before arriving in Dallas. You can go online to http://www.supershuttle.com to use the online reservation system or you can call 1-800-258-3826 and make your arrangements with an agent. Make sure to give the agent our group code discount number C58BM and talk with the agent about booking your travel; SuperShuttle will charge $14 one-way or $26 roundtrip. Once you arrive at DFW or Love Field follow these steps to use SuperShuttle: 1) Collect your luggage then go to the courtesy phones located adjacent to the luggage carousel and call SuperShuttle using the touch screen system or call an agent on your cell phone by dialing 972-615-3005. 2) To ensure the discounted rate, give the agent our group code number: C58BM 3) The agent will advise you on the closest loading zone. All SuperShuttle loading zones are located on the upper levels and they do have curbside service agents to assist. When convention ends: Unless the agent gave you other instructions when you arrived in Dallas, follow these instructions when leaving the Anatole: 1) 24 hours prior to your scheduled departure flight, call the SuperShuttle agent (972-615-3005) to arrange your return transportation. 2) Be outside the Anatole’s main lobby at your scheduled pick-up time. Make sure to confirm which lobby is considered the main lobby. For thrifty organizers, you can save more money by arranging ground transportation for a group of 10 people. SuperShuttle will give 10 passengers a ride for $80…that’s $8 a person, $16 roundtrip, saving you $10. (Dallas has two different airports, make sure everyone you are including in your group is going to the same airport and on the same flight.) Note: I've searched the website, but I'm not seeing a place to enter our code. If anyone has any ideas, it would be nice, because I think you save $2 if you use the website. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Jun 28 07:51:42 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 02:51:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone using SuperShuttle at Convention? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Brandon! I want to thank Mr Donnahue for informing me about Megabus. Because of this, I'm taking them, as my transportation to the hotel, and other restaurants, that I'll be eating at, during convention. No Super Shuttle for me! Blessings, Joshua On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello, > I'm wondering if anyone is planning on using Super shuttle to get from the > airport to the Hilton Hotel? > I'm arriving at the Fort worth airport at 12:30 on the 30th and it would be > cool if there could be a group of us students heading out on the same bus! > For those of you who haven't heard: > > For Anyone flying to National Convention, > > To use the Super Shuttle service, you have to make a reservation before > arriving in Dallas. You can go online to http://www.supershuttle.com to use > the online reservation system or you can call 1-800-258-3826 and make your > arrangements with an agent. Make sure to give the agent our group code > discount number C58BM and talk with the agent about booking your travel; > SuperShuttle will charge $14 one-way or $26 roundtrip. > > > > Once you arrive at DFW or Love Field follow these steps to use SuperShuttle: > > > > 1) Collect your luggage then go to the courtesy phones located adjacent > to the luggage carousel and call SuperShuttle using the touch screen system > or call an agent on your cell phone by dialing 972-615-3005. > > 2) To ensure the discounted rate, give the agent our group code number: > C58BM > > 3) The agent will advise you on the closest loading zone. All > SuperShuttle loading zones are located on the upper levels and they do have > curbside service agents to assist. > > > > When convention ends: > > Unless the agent gave you other instructions when you arrived in Dallas, > follow these instructions when leaving the Anatole: > > > > 1) 24 hours prior to your scheduled departure flight, call the > SuperShuttle agent (972-615-3005) to arrange your return transportation. > > 2) Be outside the Anatole’s main lobby at your scheduled pick-up time. > Make sure to confirm which lobby is considered the main lobby. > > > > For thrifty organizers, you can save more money by arranging ground > transportation for a group of 10 people. SuperShuttle will give 10 > passengers a ride for $80…that’s $8 a person, $16 roundtrip, saving you $10. > (Dallas has two different airports, make sure everyone you are including in > your group is going to the same airport and on the same flight.) > > > Note: > I've searched the website, but I'm not seeing a place to enter our code. > If anyone has any ideas, it would be nice, because I think you save $2 if > you use the website. > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 12:31:29 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 05:31:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Business MTG Message-ID: Hi please forgive me if this was already asked. Are we going to be able to download sunday's meeting online? I have a Victor reader stream however I'd still like to have a copy of meaning. The speakers are fabulous this year and I don't wanna miss anything. From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 12:34:37 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 05:34:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Etiquette Message-ID: Hi this is deb I was wondering is there a break during the business meeting on sunday? What if we step out are we going to miss the drawing or is that before the meaning? I'm just wondering if it's okay just step out to get a drink or something. Thank you. Deb From gpaikens at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 14:27:06 2012 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:27:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone using SuperShuttle at Convention? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Joshua, I think you may be confused between Mega Bus and some of the other options Peter sent out on this list. Mega Bus will get you from city to city, but as far as I know, they do not run a service within the city. I will be using Super Shuttle, but get in on the 29. Best, Greg On Jun 28, 2012, at 2:51 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi, Brandon! > I want to thank Mr Donnahue for informing me about Megabus. > Because of this, I'm taking them, as my transportation to the hotel, > and other restaurants, that I'll be eating at, during convention. > No Super Shuttle for me! > Blessings, Joshua > > On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello, >> I'm wondering if anyone is planning on using Super shuttle to get from the >> airport to the Hilton Hotel? >> I'm arriving at the Fort worth airport at 12:30 on the 30th and it would be >> cool if there could be a group of us students heading out on the same bus! >> For those of you who haven't heard: >> >> For Anyone flying to National Convention, >> >> To use the Super Shuttle service, you have to make a reservation before >> arriving in Dallas. You can go online to http://www.supershuttle.com to use >> the online reservation system or you can call 1-800-258-3826 and make your >> arrangements with an agent. Make sure to give the agent our group code >> discount number C58BM and talk with the agent about booking your travel; >> SuperShuttle will charge $14 one-way or $26 roundtrip. >> >> >> >> Once you arrive at DFW or Love Field follow these steps to use SuperShuttle: >> >> >> >> 1) Collect your luggage then go to the courtesy phones located adjacent >> to the luggage carousel and call SuperShuttle using the touch screen system >> or call an agent on your cell phone by dialing 972-615-3005. >> >> 2) To ensure the discounted rate, give the agent our group code number: >> C58BM >> >> 3) The agent will advise you on the closest loading zone. All >> SuperShuttle loading zones are located on the upper levels and they do have >> curbside service agents to assist. >> >> >> >> When convention ends: >> >> Unless the agent gave you other instructions when you arrived in Dallas, >> follow these instructions when leaving the Anatole: >> >> >> >> 1) 24 hours prior to your scheduled departure flight, call the >> SuperShuttle agent (972-615-3005) to arrange your return transportation. >> >> 2) Be outside the Anatole’s main lobby at your scheduled pick-up time. >> Make sure to confirm which lobby is considered the main lobby. >> >> >> >> For thrifty organizers, you can save more money by arranging ground >> transportation for a group of 10 people. SuperShuttle will give 10 >> passengers a ride for $80…that’s $8 a person, $16 roundtrip, saving you $10. >> (Dallas has two different airports, make sure everyone you are including in >> your group is going to the same airport and on the same flight.) >> >> >> Note: >> I've searched the website, but I'm not seeing a place to enter our code. >> If anyone has any ideas, it would be nice, because I think you save $2 if >> you use the website. >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Jun 28 14:33:37 2012 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:33:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone using SuperShuttle at Convention? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll get in, on the 29th, as well. I'm headed to the train station, this afternoon, and will board the train, at 3:30, AM, tomorrow. Blessings, Joshua On 6/28/12, Greg Aikens wrote: > Hi Joshua, > I think you may be confused between Mega Bus and some of the other options > Peter sent out on this list. Mega Bus will get you from city to city, but > as far as I know, they do not run a service within the city. > > I will be using Super Shuttle, but get in on the 29. > > Best, > Greg > On Jun 28, 2012, at 2:51 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Hi, Brandon! >> I want to thank Mr Donnahue for informing me about Megabus. >> Because of this, I'm taking them, as my transportation to the hotel, >> and other restaurants, that I'll be eating at, during convention. >> No Super Shuttle for me! >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>> Hello, >>> I'm wondering if anyone is planning on using Super shuttle to get from >>> the >>> airport to the Hilton Hotel? >>> I'm arriving at the Fort worth airport at 12:30 on the 30th and it would >>> be >>> cool if there could be a group of us students heading out on the same >>> bus! >>> For those of you who haven't heard: >>> >>> For Anyone flying to National Convention, >>> >>> To use the Super Shuttle service, you have to make a reservation before >>> arriving in Dallas. You can go online to http://www.supershuttle.com to >>> use >>> the online reservation system or you can call 1-800-258-3826 and make >>> your >>> arrangements with an agent. Make sure to give the agent our group code >>> discount number C58BM and talk with the agent about booking your travel; >>> SuperShuttle will charge $14 one-way or $26 roundtrip. >>> >>> >>> >>> Once you arrive at DFW or Love Field follow these steps to use >>> SuperShuttle: >>> >>> >>> >>> 1) Collect your luggage then go to the courtesy phones located >>> adjacent >>> to the luggage carousel and call SuperShuttle using the touch screen >>> system >>> or call an agent on your cell phone by dialing 972-615-3005. >>> >>> 2) To ensure the discounted rate, give the agent our group code >>> number: >>> C58BM >>> >>> 3) The agent will advise you on the closest loading zone. All >>> SuperShuttle loading zones are located on the upper levels and they do >>> have >>> curbside service agents to assist. >>> >>> >>> >>> When convention ends: >>> >>> Unless the agent gave you other instructions when you arrived in Dallas, >>> follow these instructions when leaving the Anatole: >>> >>> >>> >>> 1) 24 hours prior to your scheduled departure flight, call the >>> SuperShuttle agent (972-615-3005) to arrange your return transportation. >>> >>> 2) Be outside the Anatole’s main lobby at your scheduled pick-up >>> time. >>> Make sure to confirm which lobby is considered the main lobby. >>> >>> >>> >>> For thrifty organizers, you can save more money by arranging ground >>> transportation for a group of 10 people. SuperShuttle will give 10 >>> passengers a ride for $80…that’s $8 a person, $16 roundtrip, saving you >>> $10. >>> (Dallas has two different airports, make sure everyone you are including >>> in >>> your group is going to the same airport and on the same flight.) >>> >>> >>> Note: >>> I've searched the website, but I'm not seeing a place to enter our code. >>> If anyone has any ideas, it would be nice, because I think you save $2 >>> if >>> you use the website. >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From nbrav003 at fiu.edu Thu Jun 28 15:20:02 2012 From: nbrav003 at fiu.edu (Nallym Bravo) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:20:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: FW: Call for Applications - ICD Young Leaders Conferences (Berlin, Vienna, Brussels, London, Helsinki - June-September 2012) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For your information, see below. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Pascale Becel Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 02:38:33 +0000 Subject: FW: Call for Applications - ICD Young Leaders Conferences (Berlin, Vienna, Brussels, London, Helsinki - June-September 2012) To: UGFRE at fiu.edu ________________________________ From: The Institute for Cultural Diplomacy [icdapplications at culturaldiplomacy.de] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:26 AM To: Pascale Becel Subject: Call for Applications - ICD Young Leaders Conferences (Berlin, Vienna, Brussels, London, Helsinki - June-September 2012) ICD Young Leaders’ Conferences - Summer Sessions (Berlin, Vienna, Brussels, London, Helsinki – June-September 2012) - Call for Applications - Dear Friends and Colleagues, On behalf of the Institute for Cultural Diplomacy, we are writing to you now to bring to your attention our upcoming Young Leaders Programs hosted by the Institute for Cultural Diplomacy. We would be grateful if you could forward the information to anyone you feel might be interested in participating. ***** ICD Young Leaders’ Forums – Summer Sessions (Berlin, Vienna, Brussels, London, Helsinki, June – September, 2012) www.icd-ylf.org The ICD Young Leaders Forums are international networks of like-minded young individuals with an interest in developing, supporting and sustaining intercultural relations. The first Young Leaders Forum was developed in 2003 and we have since developed and launched a variety of different bilateral and multilateral forums that focus on a diverse range of relationships across the world. Over the past decade the ICD Young Leaders Forum has grown to become one of Europe’s largest independent cultural exchange organizations, hosting programs that facilitate interaction among young individuals of all cultural, academic, and professional backgrounds, from across the world. Forum Participants > The forums are open to applications young professionals and students as well as other interested stakeholders from across the world. To apply please click HERE Forum Speakers > The speakers during the conference will include leading figures and experts from international politics (including head of states and ministers), academia, the diplomatic community, civil society and the private sector, from across the world. These speakers will include a number of individuals from the ICD Advisory Board. To learn more about the ICD Advisory Board please click here. We are accepting applications for the following events: • ICD Academy for Cultural Diplomacy - July Session – (Berlin, July 9th – 13rd, 2012) • Cultural Diplomacy in Europe Conference – (Vienna, July 17th – 20th, 2012) • Cultural Diplomacy in Africa Conference – (Berlin, July 23rd – 28th, 2012) • The Europe Meets Latin America Conference – (Berlin, July 31st – August 3rd, 2012) • The Europe Meets Russia Conference – (Brussels, August 7th – 10th, 2012) • The UK Meets Germany Conference – (Berlin, August 14th – 17th, 2012) • Cultural Bridges in Germany Conference – (Berlin, August 21st – 24th, 2012) • The Germany Meets Turkey Conference – (Berlin, August 21st – 24th, 2012) • The Germany Meets Morocco Conference – (Berlin, August 21st – 24th, 2012) • The Arts as Cultural Diplomacy Conference – (London, August 23rd – 27th, 2012) • The Europe Meets China Conference – (Berlin, September 4th – 7th, 2012) • Cultural Diplomacy in Europe Conference – (Helsinki, September 11th – 14th, 2012) • The Italy Meets Germany Conference – ( Berlin, September 18th – 21st, 2012) ***** The Institute for Cultural Diplomacy www.culturaldiplomacy.org The Institute for Cultural Diplomacy is an international, not-for-profit, non-governmental organization with headquarters in Berlin, Germany. Over the past decade the ICD has grown to become one of Europe’s largest independent cultural exchange organizations, whose programs facilitate interaction between individuals of all backgrounds from across the world. Thank you for your attention and for your cooperation in sharing the news of our upcoming events. If you do not wish to receive emails from the ICD in the future, please send us an email to info at culturaldiplomacy.org indicating this. With warmest regards, Mark Donfried Director & Founder Institute for Cultural Diplomacy (ICD) Ku´damm Karree (3rd Floor/Hochhaus) Kurfürstendamm 207-8 Berlin, Germany-10719 Phone: 00.49(0)30.2360-7680 www.culturaldiplomacy.org info at culturaldiplomacy.org From dandrews at visi.com Thu Jun 28 16:01:14 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:01:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: announcing all-new iPad screen protectors with special NFB convention discounts! Message-ID: > >SpeedDots would like to announce our new tactile screen protectors >for the iPad 2 and 3. Since we were not able to get them ready in >time to showcase at the upcoming convention, we would like to offer >a convention special. >Save 15% on all our products including the new iPad screen protector >by using coupon code NFB12 at checkout. >Our press release is below: > >SpeedDots Announces a New Product Release: Tactile Screen protectors for iPad > >Sacramento, California >June 28, 2012 > >Building on the momentum and success of its tactile screen >protectors for iPhone and iPod Touch, SpeedDots, announces its >latest product: tactile screen protectors for iPad. > >With over 2,000 sold since the start of business in July of last >year, the California based company is excited to introduce this new product. > >As with its models for iPhone and iPod, the tactile screen >protectors for iPad use single dots to denote the location of >letters on the virtual keyboard along with other commonly used controls. > >Now, navigating a touch screen with the size and complexity of the >iPad can be quicker than ever before! > >The Tactile Screen Protector for iPad will work with all models of the device. > >The new screen protectors will be available immediately on the >company's web site, and available through product resellers in the >up-coming weeks. > >Visit SpeedDots.com and get yours today! From nabs.president at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 17:51:19 2012 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (nabs.president at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 13:51:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Business Meeting Message-ID: <014401cd5556$a0397180$e0ac5480$@gmail.com> Deb, thank you for your questions. Allow me to clarify: We are attempting to work out the ability to record the meeting for later download, but this has not yet been confirmed. We hope to be able to do so, but are not sure yet, thus no announcement on that issue. There is no break scheduled in the meeting. This is an issue with which I struggled, but in the final analysis the agenda was just too packed to make it a possibility. You, and anybody else, are, of course, most welcome to leave at any time you wish for any reason. Folks may come and go as they please, but only those in the room when their names are drawn for door prizes will be eligible to win. The iPod Touch will be the last prize drawn, and will be given away after elections and immediately prior to adjourning. Arielle, thank you for the kind words. The whole NABS board, and several members off it, have worked really hard to make this year's convention activities as successful as possible. We look forward to seeing many of you at our business meeting, social, and Monte Carlo Night. I'd be remiss if I didn't include the preregistration link one more time, so here it is: http://j.mp/NABS12 Preregister and come early! We'd love to have the chance to say hello. Also, swing by NABS' table, table 17, in the exhibit hall when you make your rounds there. The custom slate cases we are selling are very stylish! And then there's that iPad/Serotek/iPhone accessories raffle. See y'all soon!, Sean From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 17:54:16 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 13:54:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my Behalf? In-Reply-To: <001001cd54eb$a4e8a450$eeb9ecf0$@gmail.com> References: <001001cd54eb$a4e8a450$eeb9ecf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <019ED5CDDFEA40D98B84CD187FAC6A81@OwnerPC> Humberto, If anyone contacted you, it was probably off list. If you think identity theft is going on, contact your email provider about it. -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:05 AM To: blindTlk at nfbNet.org ; nfbWaTlk at nfbNet.org ; nabs-l at nfbNet.org ; GUI-talk at nfbNet.org ; nfbcs at nfbNet.org ; musicTlk at nfbNet.org ; reader-users at nfbNet.org ; jobs at nfbNet.org Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my Behalf? Hello everybody: My sincere apologies for cross posting this message to all lists I'm subscribed to, and also if I am off topic. I wanted to write in regards to a recent activity I have seen on listserves, where apparently a member of the list sends an email message with no subject and a strange link in the body of the message. Unless that member really intended to send the message, someone hacking e-mail accounts probably causes this and it is spreading spam. Did anyone happen to see any message that looks strange or with no subject, under my name or email address? I am not someone who is just wanting to scream out and share widely my findings just because I find this kind of stuff on any list, nor am I the moderator what so ever. However, the reason I am asking this question is because, this evening, I happen to look at my account activity under my gMail account and something noticed my attention. As I was looking at the last activity, a saw a table with 3 columns and about 12 or so rows. The table summarizes the type of activity, whether it is use of browser, mail client, or some other, then a row with the location and IP address, and the date and time accessed. Usually, this lists my preferred methods of accessing gmail, which is through outlook and firefox, and then the IP address of my computer which was pretty much the same. Under the location row, the page displays the info in the form, for example, "united States (WA) (66.189.2.)", meaning that is coming from Washington State in the USA, and is my computer's IP address. However, in one of the rows, the information displayed was something like "United States (CA) (66.200.)". It appears that somebody from California had access to my account and this is not my IP address. Back on topic for these lists, blind people are getting more and more access to technology and information as well as the sighted population in this world. We use e-mail every day to communicate as well as social media. Therefore, fellow blind computer users, I would like to give you a piece of recommendation to you out of courtesy. If you notice something spreading like this across your contacts (this includes e-mail addresses of lists you put out as contacts in your webmail address book), like this "no subject-and-link" thing, please check your webmail site for your last account activity, or whatever is called on your specific webmail provider or email provider. To you gMail users, look for the text, "last account activity" on any page and there should be any link there to take you to the activity using whatever page view you prefer using, either Basic html or Standard. To all others, look for a similar text under your webmail pages and see if you notice any unusual activity like this. This may be that some clever spammer is breaking into your account and knows how to get your password. If so, please change your password so this does not happen. I am only sending this out for your information and to make sure there is no further identity theft if this is to continue in more depth. We should protect our accounts, not just our e-mail accounts, so that these things do not occur in the future. If you see any suspicious activities, please take action. Again, thank you for reading this and I am sorry if this goes too off-topic. If you want to reply about this matter, please do so off-list. Sincerely, Humberto _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From tyler at tysdomain.com Thu Jun 28 18:05:29 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:05:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my Behalf? In-Reply-To: <019ED5CDDFEA40D98B84CD187FAC6A81@OwnerPC> References: <001001cd54eb$a4e8a450$eeb9ecf0$@gmail.com> <019ED5CDDFEA40D98B84CD187FAC6A81@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4FEC9CE9.4020502@tysdomain.com> I just wanted to clear something up, because people are throwing around words and it's totally off. First, people very rarely sit around and just crack random gmail passwords. A good password is nice because this happens, but it's not to often. Generally spam happens because you have a virus that did a couple of things. Either it just uses your email client (why bother trying to get your password when that's already available), or it will just wait for you to log into something and send your info off to something. There are also botnets, where people can rent out computers. Someone just connects, pays $10 for 500 computers for 30 seconds or something and uploads their program, then it runs and that's that. This is also because of a virus. If you think you have issues with your email client, virus scan (I use security essentials as well as malwarebytes), then change your password. Identity theft is something different altogether. Someone gets your credit card/social and uses that. On 6/28/2012 11:54 AM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Humberto, > If anyone contacted you, it was probably off list. > If you think identity theft is going on, contact your email provider > about it. > > -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:05 AM > To: blindTlk at nfbNet.org ; nfbWaTlk at nfbNet.org ; nabs-l at nfbNet.org ; > GUI-talk at nfbNet.org ; nfbcs at nfbNet.org ; musicTlk at nfbNet.org ; > reader-users at nfbNet.org ; jobs at nfbNet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my > Behalf? > > Hello everybody: > > > > My sincere apologies for cross posting this message to all lists I'm > subscribed to, and also if I am off topic. > > I wanted to write in regards to a recent activity I have seen on > listserves, > where apparently a member of the list sends an email message with no > subject > and a strange link in the body of the message. Unless that member really > intended to send the message, someone hacking e-mail accounts probably > causes this and it is spreading spam. Did anyone happen to see any > message > that looks strange or with no subject, under my name or email address? > > > > I am not someone who is just wanting to scream out and share widely my > findings just because I find this kind of stuff on any list, nor am I the > moderator what so ever. However, the reason I am asking this question is > because, this evening, I happen to look at my account activity under my > gMail account and something noticed my attention. > > As I was looking at the last activity, a saw a table with 3 columns and > about 12 or so rows. The table summarizes the type of activity, > whether it > is use of browser, mail client, or some other, then a row with the > location > and IP address, and the date and time accessed. Usually, this lists my > preferred methods of accessing gmail, which is through outlook and > firefox, > and then the IP address of my computer which was pretty much the same. > Under > the location row, the page displays the info in the form, for example, > "united States (WA) (66.189.2.)", meaning that is coming from Washington > State in the USA, and is my computer's IP address. However, in one of the > rows, the information displayed was something like "United States (CA) > (66.200.)". It appears that somebody from California had access to my > account and this is not my IP address. > > > > Back on topic for these lists, blind people are getting more and more > access > to technology and information as well as the sighted population in this > world. We use e-mail every day to communicate as well as social media. > Therefore, fellow blind computer users, I would like to give you a > piece of > recommendation to you out of courtesy. If you notice something spreading > like this across your contacts (this includes e-mail addresses of > lists you > put out as contacts in your webmail address book), like this "no > subject-and-link" thing, please check your webmail site for your last > account activity, or whatever is called on your specific webmail > provider or > email provider. To you gMail users, look for the text, "last account > activity" on any page and there should be any link there to take you > to the > activity using whatever page view you prefer using, either Basic html or > Standard. To all others, look for a similar text under your webmail pages > and see if you notice any unusual activity like this. > > > > This may be that some clever spammer is breaking into your account and > knows > how to get your password. If so, please change your password so this does > not happen. > > > > I am only sending this out for your information and to make sure there > is no > further identity theft if this is to continue in more depth. We should > protect our accounts, not just our e-mail accounts, so that these > things do > not occur in the future. If you see any suspicious activities, please > take > action. > > > > Again, thank you for reading this and I am sorry if this goes too > off-topic. > If you want to reply about this matter, please do so off-list. > > > > Sincerely, > > Humberto > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 18:12:30 2012 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:12:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my Behalf? In-Reply-To: <4FEC9CE9.4020502@tysdomain.com> References: <001001cd54eb$a4e8a450$eeb9ecf0$@gmail.com> <019ED5CDDFEA40D98B84CD187FAC6A81@OwnerPC> <4FEC9CE9.4020502@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Tyler; I understand where you are coming from. But, don't you think that it's even remotely possible for identity theft to happen with only email info. All a person needs nowadays is your name, date of birth, and social security number. If, all this is in your account (which everything is besides your ss number) then they have a path to go down. If you're more comfortable talking about it offlist, feel free to write me privately (and that goes for anyone). On 6/28/12, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > I just wanted to clear something up, because people are throwing around > words and it's totally off. > First, people very rarely sit around and just crack random gmail > passwords. A good password is nice because this happens, but it's not to > often. Generally spam happens because you have a virus that did a couple > of things. Either it just uses your email client (why bother trying to > get your password when that's already available), or it will just wait > for you to log into something and send your info off to something. There > are also botnets, where people can rent out computers. Someone just > connects, pays $10 for 500 computers for 30 seconds or something and > uploads their program, then it runs and that's that. This is also > because of a virus. > > If you think you have issues with your email client, virus scan (I use > security essentials as well as malwarebytes), then change your password. > Identity theft is something different altogether. Someone gets your > credit card/social and uses that. > On 6/28/2012 11:54 AM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Humberto, >> If anyone contacted you, it was probably off list. >> If you think identity theft is going on, contact your email provider >> about it. >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila >> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:05 AM >> To: blindTlk at nfbNet.org ; nfbWaTlk at nfbNet.org ; nabs-l at nfbNet.org ; >> GUI-talk at nfbNet.org ; nfbcs at nfbNet.org ; musicTlk at nfbNet.org ; >> reader-users at nfbNet.org ; jobs at nfbNet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my >> Behalf? >> >> Hello everybody: >> >> >> >> My sincere apologies for cross posting this message to all lists I'm >> subscribed to, and also if I am off topic. >> >> I wanted to write in regards to a recent activity I have seen on >> listserves, >> where apparently a member of the list sends an email message with no >> subject >> and a strange link in the body of the message. Unless that member really >> intended to send the message, someone hacking e-mail accounts probably >> causes this and it is spreading spam. Did anyone happen to see any >> message >> that looks strange or with no subject, under my name or email address? >> >> >> >> I am not someone who is just wanting to scream out and share widely my >> findings just because I find this kind of stuff on any list, nor am I the >> moderator what so ever. However, the reason I am asking this question is >> because, this evening, I happen to look at my account activity under my >> gMail account and something noticed my attention. >> >> As I was looking at the last activity, a saw a table with 3 columns and >> about 12 or so rows. The table summarizes the type of activity, >> whether it >> is use of browser, mail client, or some other, then a row with the >> location >> and IP address, and the date and time accessed. Usually, this lists my >> preferred methods of accessing gmail, which is through outlook and >> firefox, >> and then the IP address of my computer which was pretty much the same. >> Under >> the location row, the page displays the info in the form, for example, >> "united States (WA) (66.189.2.)", meaning that is coming from Washington >> State in the USA, and is my computer's IP address. However, in one of the >> rows, the information displayed was something like "United States (CA) >> (66.200.)". It appears that somebody from California had access to my >> account and this is not my IP address. >> >> >> >> Back on topic for these lists, blind people are getting more and more >> access >> to technology and information as well as the sighted population in this >> world. We use e-mail every day to communicate as well as social media. >> Therefore, fellow blind computer users, I would like to give you a >> piece of >> recommendation to you out of courtesy. If you notice something spreading >> like this across your contacts (this includes e-mail addresses of >> lists you >> put out as contacts in your webmail address book), like this "no >> subject-and-link" thing, please check your webmail site for your last >> account activity, or whatever is called on your specific webmail >> provider or >> email provider. To you gMail users, look for the text, "last account >> activity" on any page and there should be any link there to take you >> to the >> activity using whatever page view you prefer using, either Basic html or >> Standard. To all others, look for a similar text under your webmail pages >> and see if you notice any unusual activity like this. >> >> >> >> This may be that some clever spammer is breaking into your account and >> knows >> how to get your password. If so, please change your password so this does >> not happen. >> >> >> >> I am only sending this out for your information and to make sure there >> is no >> further identity theft if this is to continue in more depth. We should >> protect our accounts, not just our e-mail accounts, so that these >> things do >> not occur in the future. If you see any suspicious activities, please >> take >> action. >> >> >> >> Again, thank you for reading this and I am sorry if this goes too >> off-topic. >> If you want to reply about this matter, please do so off-list. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Humberto >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 18:21:51 2012 From: deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com (Deb Mendelsohn) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:21:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Business Meeting In-Reply-To: <014401cd5556$a0397180$e0ac5480$@gmail.com> References: <014401cd5556$a0397180$e0ac5480$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Sean You explained it perfectly thank you. Deb Deb Cell (520) 225-8244 On Jun 28, 2012 10:53 AM, wrote: > Deb, thank you for your questions. Allow me to clarify: > > > > We are attempting to work out the ability to record the meeting for later > download, but this has not yet been confirmed. We hope to be able to do so, > but are not sure yet, thus no announcement on that issue. > > > > There is no break scheduled in the meeting. This is an issue with which I > struggled, but in the final analysis the agenda was just too packed to make > it a possibility. You, and anybody else, are, of course, most welcome to > leave at any time you wish for any reason. Folks may come and go as they > please, but only those in the room when their names are drawn for door > prizes will be eligible to win. The iPod Touch will be the last prize > drawn, > and will be given away after elections and immediately prior to adjourning. > > > > Arielle, thank you for the kind words. The whole NABS board, and several > members off it, have worked really hard to make this year's convention > activities as successful as possible. We look forward to seeing many of you > at our business meeting, social, and Monte Carlo Night. > > > > I'd be remiss if I didn't include the preregistration link one more time, > so > here it is: > > http://j.mp/NABS12 > > Preregister and come early! We'd love to have the chance to say hello. > > > > Also, swing by NABS' table, table 17, in the exhibit hall when you make > your > rounds there. The custom slate cases we are selling are very stylish! And > then there's that iPad/Serotek/iPhone accessories raffle. > > > > See y'all soon!, > > > > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/deb.mendelsohn%40gmail.com > From PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu Thu Jun 28 19:20:17 2012 From: PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu (Justin Salisbury) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:20:17 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Xbox 360 Accessibility Message-ID: <6CE049279B97194491C46E008D889243158B42E5@CH1PRD0510MB355.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Thank you to Tyler, Brandon, and Beth, who have commented about Xbox 360 accessibility on the list. Please keep your comments coming! To clarify: My research is specific to the Xbox 360 platform and not any other gaming system. I am not researching gaming; I am researching the additional features of the system. If you could please send your comments to me directly (not to the list) about the Xbox 360's services beyond gaming and accessibility issues, I would be most grateful, and you will be helping our movement! Justin president at alumni.ecu.edu Justin M. Salisbury Class of 2012 B.A. in Mathematics East Carolina University president at alumni.ecu.edu “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” —MARGARET MEAD From tyler at tysdomain.com Thu Jun 28 21:09:25 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:09:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my Behalf? In-Reply-To: References: <001001cd54eb$a4e8a450$eeb9ecf0$@gmail.com> <019ED5CDDFEA40D98B84CD187FAC6A81@OwnerPC> <4FEC9CE9.4020502@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <4FECC805.3060703@tysdomain.com> Feel free to tell me how you're going to pull a social security number from someone's name. You have a few routes. 1) Phishing. Send out a message that tells them something is up, redirect them to a form and there you go. Lots of people would do that, which is why it's so common. With a bit of research it's possible. It's pretty hard to get someone's social outright though minus social engineering. Unless you manage to infect their computer that works, but even banks and other similar sites don't tend to show the full number, they might just show the last four, for example. That leaves you 5 more numbers to get to. Organizations and corporations should never be sending social security numbers through email, because that would be incredibly non-PCI compliant, so having an email address and a password might net you some info, but you're still going to have to do a lot of work to pull it. At best, you could get a credit card number or something, but even that is usually xxx-xxx-xxx-0000 or something. On 6/28/2012 12:12 PM, josh gregory wrote: > Tyler; > > I understand where you are coming from. But, don't you think that it's > even remotely possible for identity theft to happen with only email > info. All a person needs nowadays is your name, date of birth, and > social security number. If, all this is in your account (which > everything is besides your ss number) then they have a path to go > down. If you're more comfortable talking about it offlist, feel free > to write me privately (and that goes for anyone). > > On 6/28/12, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >> I just wanted to clear something up, because people are throwing around >> words and it's totally off. >> First, people very rarely sit around and just crack random gmail >> passwords. A good password is nice because this happens, but it's not to >> often. Generally spam happens because you have a virus that did a couple >> of things. Either it just uses your email client (why bother trying to >> get your password when that's already available), or it will just wait >> for you to log into something and send your info off to something. There >> are also botnets, where people can rent out computers. Someone just >> connects, pays $10 for 500 computers for 30 seconds or something and >> uploads their program, then it runs and that's that. This is also >> because of a virus. >> >> If you think you have issues with your email client, virus scan (I use >> security essentials as well as malwarebytes), then change your password. >> Identity theft is something different altogether. Someone gets your >> credit card/social and uses that. >> On 6/28/2012 11:54 AM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Humberto, >>> If anyone contacted you, it was probably off list. >>> If you think identity theft is going on, contact your email provider >>> about it. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila >>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:05 AM >>> To: blindTlk at nfbNet.org ; nfbWaTlk at nfbNet.org ; nabs-l at nfbNet.org ; >>> GUI-talk at nfbNet.org ; nfbcs at nfbNet.org ; musicTlk at nfbNet.org ; >>> reader-users at nfbNet.org ; jobs at nfbNet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my >>> Behalf? >>> >>> Hello everybody: >>> >>> >>> >>> My sincere apologies for cross posting this message to all lists I'm >>> subscribed to, and also if I am off topic. >>> >>> I wanted to write in regards to a recent activity I have seen on >>> listserves, >>> where apparently a member of the list sends an email message with no >>> subject >>> and a strange link in the body of the message. Unless that member really >>> intended to send the message, someone hacking e-mail accounts probably >>> causes this and it is spreading spam. Did anyone happen to see any >>> message >>> that looks strange or with no subject, under my name or email address? >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not someone who is just wanting to scream out and share widely my >>> findings just because I find this kind of stuff on any list, nor am I the >>> moderator what so ever. However, the reason I am asking this question is >>> because, this evening, I happen to look at my account activity under my >>> gMail account and something noticed my attention. >>> >>> As I was looking at the last activity, a saw a table with 3 columns and >>> about 12 or so rows. The table summarizes the type of activity, >>> whether it >>> is use of browser, mail client, or some other, then a row with the >>> location >>> and IP address, and the date and time accessed. Usually, this lists my >>> preferred methods of accessing gmail, which is through outlook and >>> firefox, >>> and then the IP address of my computer which was pretty much the same. >>> Under >>> the location row, the page displays the info in the form, for example, >>> "united States (WA) (66.189.2.)", meaning that is coming from Washington >>> State in the USA, and is my computer's IP address. However, in one of the >>> rows, the information displayed was something like "United States (CA) >>> (66.200.)". It appears that somebody from California had access to my >>> account and this is not my IP address. >>> >>> >>> >>> Back on topic for these lists, blind people are getting more and more >>> access >>> to technology and information as well as the sighted population in this >>> world. We use e-mail every day to communicate as well as social media. >>> Therefore, fellow blind computer users, I would like to give you a >>> piece of >>> recommendation to you out of courtesy. If you notice something spreading >>> like this across your contacts (this includes e-mail addresses of >>> lists you >>> put out as contacts in your webmail address book), like this "no >>> subject-and-link" thing, please check your webmail site for your last >>> account activity, or whatever is called on your specific webmail >>> provider or >>> email provider. To you gMail users, look for the text, "last account >>> activity" on any page and there should be any link there to take you >>> to the >>> activity using whatever page view you prefer using, either Basic html or >>> Standard. To all others, look for a similar text under your webmail pages >>> and see if you notice any unusual activity like this. >>> >>> >>> >>> This may be that some clever spammer is breaking into your account and >>> knows >>> how to get your password. If so, please change your password so this does >>> not happen. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am only sending this out for your information and to make sure there >>> is no >>> further identity theft if this is to continue in more depth. We should >>> protect our accounts, not just our e-mail accounts, so that these >>> things do >>> not occur in the future. If you see any suspicious activities, please >>> take >>> action. >>> >>> >>> >>> Again, thank you for reading this and I am sorry if this goes too >>> off-topic. >>> If you want to reply about this matter, please do so off-list. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Humberto >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 21:18:34 2012 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:18:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my Behalf? In-Reply-To: <4FECC805.3060703@tysdomain.com> References: <001001cd54eb$a4e8a450$eeb9ecf0$@gmail.com> <019ED5CDDFEA40D98B84CD187FAC6A81@OwnerPC> <4FEC9CE9.4020502@tysdomain.com> <4FECC805.3060703@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: That's kinda my point, but I digress. On 6/28/12, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > > Feel free to tell me how you're going to pull a social security number > from someone's name. You have a few routes. > 1) Phishing. Send out a message that tells them something is up, > redirect them to a form and there you go. Lots of people would do that, > which is why it's so common. With a bit of research it's possible. > > It's pretty hard to get someone's social outright though minus social > engineering. Unless you manage to infect their computer that works, but > even banks and other similar sites don't tend to show the full number, > they might just show the last four, for example. That leaves you 5 more > numbers to get to. Organizations and corporations should never be > sending social security numbers through email, because that would be > incredibly non-PCI compliant, so having an email address and a password > might net you some info, but you're still going to have to do a lot of > work to pull it. At best, you could get a credit card number or > something, but even that is usually xxx-xxx-xxx-0000 or something. > > On 6/28/2012 12:12 PM, josh gregory wrote: >> Tyler; >> >> I understand where you are coming from. But, don't you think that it's >> even remotely possible for identity theft to happen with only email >> info. All a person needs nowadays is your name, date of birth, and >> social security number. If, all this is in your account (which >> everything is besides your ss number) then they have a path to go >> down. If you're more comfortable talking about it offlist, feel free >> to write me privately (and that goes for anyone). >> >> On 6/28/12, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >>> I just wanted to clear something up, because people are throwing around >>> words and it's totally off. >>> First, people very rarely sit around and just crack random gmail >>> passwords. A good password is nice because this happens, but it's not to >>> often. Generally spam happens because you have a virus that did a couple >>> of things. Either it just uses your email client (why bother trying to >>> get your password when that's already available), or it will just wait >>> for you to log into something and send your info off to something. There >>> are also botnets, where people can rent out computers. Someone just >>> connects, pays $10 for 500 computers for 30 seconds or something and >>> uploads their program, then it runs and that's that. This is also >>> because of a virus. >>> >>> If you think you have issues with your email client, virus scan (I use >>> security essentials as well as malwarebytes), then change your password. >>> Identity theft is something different altogether. Someone gets your >>> credit card/social and uses that. >>> On 6/28/2012 11:54 AM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Humberto, >>>> If anyone contacted you, it was probably off list. >>>> If you think identity theft is going on, contact your email provider >>>> about it. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:05 AM >>>> To: blindTlk at nfbNet.org ; nfbWaTlk at nfbNet.org ; nabs-l at nfbNet.org ; >>>> GUI-talk at nfbNet.org ; nfbcs at nfbNet.org ; musicTlk at nfbNet.org ; >>>> reader-users at nfbNet.org ; jobs at nfbNet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my >>>> Behalf? >>>> >>>> Hello everybody: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My sincere apologies for cross posting this message to all lists I'm >>>> subscribed to, and also if I am off topic. >>>> >>>> I wanted to write in regards to a recent activity I have seen on >>>> listserves, >>>> where apparently a member of the list sends an email message with no >>>> subject >>>> and a strange link in the body of the message. Unless that member >>>> really >>>> intended to send the message, someone hacking e-mail accounts probably >>>> causes this and it is spreading spam. Did anyone happen to see any >>>> message >>>> that looks strange or with no subject, under my name or email address? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am not someone who is just wanting to scream out and share widely my >>>> findings just because I find this kind of stuff on any list, nor am I >>>> the >>>> moderator what so ever. However, the reason I am asking this question >>>> is >>>> because, this evening, I happen to look at my account activity under my >>>> gMail account and something noticed my attention. >>>> >>>> As I was looking at the last activity, a saw a table with 3 columns and >>>> about 12 or so rows. The table summarizes the type of activity, >>>> whether it >>>> is use of browser, mail client, or some other, then a row with the >>>> location >>>> and IP address, and the date and time accessed. Usually, this lists my >>>> preferred methods of accessing gmail, which is through outlook and >>>> firefox, >>>> and then the IP address of my computer which was pretty much the same. >>>> Under >>>> the location row, the page displays the info in the form, for example, >>>> "united States (WA) (66.189.2.)", meaning that is coming from >>>> Washington >>>> State in the USA, and is my computer's IP address. However, in one of >>>> the >>>> rows, the information displayed was something like "United States (CA) >>>> (66.200.)". It appears that somebody from California had access to my >>>> account and this is not my IP address. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Back on topic for these lists, blind people are getting more and more >>>> access >>>> to technology and information as well as the sighted population in this >>>> world. We use e-mail every day to communicate as well as social media. >>>> Therefore, fellow blind computer users, I would like to give you a >>>> piece of >>>> recommendation to you out of courtesy. If you notice something >>>> spreading >>>> like this across your contacts (this includes e-mail addresses of >>>> lists you >>>> put out as contacts in your webmail address book), like this "no >>>> subject-and-link" thing, please check your webmail site for your last >>>> account activity, or whatever is called on your specific webmail >>>> provider or >>>> email provider. To you gMail users, look for the text, "last account >>>> activity" on any page and there should be any link there to take you >>>> to the >>>> activity using whatever page view you prefer using, either Basic html >>>> or >>>> Standard. To all others, look for a similar text under your webmail >>>> pages >>>> and see if you notice any unusual activity like this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This may be that some clever spammer is breaking into your account and >>>> knows >>>> how to get your password. If so, please change your password so this >>>> does >>>> not happen. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am only sending this out for your information and to make sure there >>>> is no >>>> further identity theft if this is to continue in more depth. We should >>>> protect our accounts, not just our e-mail accounts, so that these >>>> things do >>>> not occur in the future. If you see any suspicious activities, please >>>> take >>>> action. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Again, thank you for reading this and I am sorry if this goes too >>>> off-topic. >>>> If you want to reply about this matter, please do so off-list. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Humberto >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>> that >>> dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>> >> > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: > http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From tyler at tysdomain.com Thu Jun 28 21:28:36 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:28:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] ~ In-Reply-To: References: <001001cd54eb$a4e8a450$eeb9ecf0$@gmail.com> <019ED5CDDFEA40D98B84CD187FAC6A81@OwnerPC> <4FEC9CE9.4020502@tysdomain.com> <4FECC805.3060703@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <4FECCC84.10002@tysdomain.com> I'm trying to get something out here though. People see hacker, spam, virus and the first impulse is to run in circles, scream and shout. Yes, identity theft is possible, and it does happen. You can prevent it by using a lot of common sense. That old lady who is sending you emails from her death bed in Nigeria with 90 million bucks she'll transfer if only you'll give her your account, is obviously fake, but people still fall for it. We've had viruses circulating since 1995, but still, people click on links and attachments from people. The media has sort of set up this image of a hacker as some basement-dwelling kid, with the complection of casper and soda cans and chip bags piled up high around him, and so everyone is worried about it. It's fairly difficult to get someone's social and personal information, even if you do have their first and last name. Social engineering can make it possible, but if that's your fear, I recommend everyone get off facebook and messenger and everything else. It's probably best if you confine yourself to your basement in a glass bubble. Usually when people get credit card numbers (there are people that sell blocks of say 1000 card numbers or so at a time), it's done through a trojan or something similar. They install something on your system, and just capture it as it goes inn. Identity theft is still possible, though again it's a lot less common. So, like I'm throwing out there. First, just be aware of what you're clicking on. This isn't just for email, it's facebook and everything else. Second, protect yourself. Owning a computer is like owning a car--if you don't take care of it, you're going to have problems. Install Microsoft security essentials if you have nothing else running, along with Malwarebytes. Make sure windows update runs all the time. Don't use internet Explorer, switch to something like Firefox. At any rate, I didn't want to start an argument. I just kind of wanted to kill everything being bounced back and forth and all that. I do some security consulting from time to time; my main goal is to help people understand the threats. Most know about the mean evil hackers, but knowing what and why they do what they do really helps in protecting yourself. I think we're getting off topic here, but if anyone has questions or whatever feel free to shoot them to me privately. My email address is tyler at tysdomain.com On 6/28/2012 3:18 PM, josh gregory wrote: > That's kinda my point, but I digress. > > On 6/28/12, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >> Feel free to tell me how you're going to pull a social security number >> from someone's name. You have a few routes. >> 1) Phishing. Send out a message that tells them something is up, >> redirect them to a form and there you go. Lots of people would do that, >> which is why it's so common. With a bit of research it's possible. >> >> It's pretty hard to get someone's social outright though minus social >> engineering. Unless you manage to infect their computer that works, but >> even banks and other similar sites don't tend to show the full number, >> they might just show the last four, for example. That leaves you 5 more >> numbers to get to. Organizations and corporations should never be >> sending social security numbers through email, because that would be >> incredibly non-PCI compliant, so having an email address and a password >> might net you some info, but you're still going to have to do a lot of >> work to pull it. At best, you could get a credit card number or >> something, but even that is usually xxx-xxx-xxx-0000 or something. >> >> On 6/28/2012 12:12 PM, josh gregory wrote: >>> Tyler; >>> >>> I understand where you are coming from. But, don't you think that it's >>> even remotely possible for identity theft to happen with only email >>> info. All a person needs nowadays is your name, date of birth, and >>> social security number. If, all this is in your account (which >>> everything is besides your ss number) then they have a path to go >>> down. If you're more comfortable talking about it offlist, feel free >>> to write me privately (and that goes for anyone). >>> >>> On 6/28/12, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >>>> I just wanted to clear something up, because people are throwing around >>>> words and it's totally off. >>>> First, people very rarely sit around and just crack random gmail >>>> passwords. A good password is nice because this happens, but it's not to >>>> often. Generally spam happens because you have a virus that did a couple >>>> of things. Either it just uses your email client (why bother trying to >>>> get your password when that's already available), or it will just wait >>>> for you to log into something and send your info off to something. There >>>> are also botnets, where people can rent out computers. Someone just >>>> connects, pays $10 for 500 computers for 30 seconds or something and >>>> uploads their program, then it runs and that's that. This is also >>>> because of a virus. >>>> >>>> If you think you have issues with your email client, virus scan (I use >>>> security essentials as well as malwarebytes), then change your password. >>>> Identity theft is something different altogether. Someone gets your >>>> credit card/social and uses that. >>>> On 6/28/2012 11:54 AM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Humberto, >>>>> If anyone contacted you, it was probably off list. >>>>> If you think identity theft is going on, contact your email provider >>>>> about it. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Avila >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:05 AM >>>>> To: blindTlk at nfbNet.org ; nfbWaTlk at nfbNet.org ; nabs-l at nfbNet.org ; >>>>> GUI-talk at nfbNet.org ; nfbcs at nfbNet.org ; musicTlk at nfbNet.org ; >>>>> reader-users at nfbNet.org ; jobs at nfbNet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] did anybody happen to see any messages sent on my >>>>> Behalf? >>>>> >>>>> Hello everybody: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My sincere apologies for cross posting this message to all lists I'm >>>>> subscribed to, and also if I am off topic. >>>>> >>>>> I wanted to write in regards to a recent activity I have seen on >>>>> listserves, >>>>> where apparently a member of the list sends an email message with no >>>>> subject >>>>> and a strange link in the body of the message. Unless that member >>>>> really >>>>> intended to send the message, someone hacking e-mail accounts probably >>>>> causes this and it is spreading spam. Did anyone happen to see any >>>>> message >>>>> that looks strange or with no subject, under my name or email address? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am not someone who is just wanting to scream out and share widely my >>>>> findings just because I find this kind of stuff on any list, nor am I >>>>> the >>>>> moderator what so ever. However, the reason I am asking this question >>>>> is >>>>> because, this evening, I happen to look at my account activity under my >>>>> gMail account and something noticed my attention. >>>>> >>>>> As I was looking at the last activity, a saw a table with 3 columns and >>>>> about 12 or so rows. The table summarizes the type of activity, >>>>> whether it >>>>> is use of browser, mail client, or some other, then a row with the >>>>> location >>>>> and IP address, and the date and time accessed. Usually, this lists my >>>>> preferred methods of accessing gmail, which is through outlook and >>>>> firefox, >>>>> and then the IP address of my computer which was pretty much the same. >>>>> Under >>>>> the location row, the page displays the info in the form, for example, >>>>> "united States (WA) (66.189.2.)", meaning that is coming from >>>>> Washington >>>>> State in the USA, and is my computer's IP address. However, in one of >>>>> the >>>>> rows, the information displayed was something like "United States (CA) >>>>> (66.200.)". It appears that somebody from California had access to my >>>>> account and this is not my IP address. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Back on topic for these lists, blind people are getting more and more >>>>> access >>>>> to technology and information as well as the sighted population in this >>>>> world. We use e-mail every day to communicate as well as social media. >>>>> Therefore, fellow blind computer users, I would like to give you a >>>>> piece of >>>>> recommendation to you out of courtesy. If you notice something >>>>> spreading >>>>> like this across your contacts (this includes e-mail addresses of >>>>> lists you >>>>> put out as contacts in your webmail address book), like this "no >>>>> subject-and-link" thing, please check your webmail site for your last >>>>> account activity, or whatever is called on your specific webmail >>>>> provider or >>>>> email provider. To you gMail users, look for the text, "last account >>>>> activity" on any page and there should be any link there to take you >>>>> to the >>>>> activity using whatever page view you prefer using, either Basic html >>>>> or >>>>> Standard. To all others, look for a similar text under your webmail >>>>> pages >>>>> and see if you notice any unusual activity like this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This may be that some clever spammer is breaking into your account and >>>>> knows >>>>> how to get your password. If so, please change your password so this >>>>> does >>>>> not happen. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am only sending this out for your information and to make sure there >>>>> is no >>>>> further identity theft if this is to continue in more depth. We should >>>>> protect our accounts, not just our e-mail accounts, so that these >>>>> things do >>>>> not occur in the future. If you see any suspicious activities, please >>>>> take >>>>> action. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Again, thank you for reading this and I am sorry if this goes too >>>>> off-topic. >>>>> If you want to reply about this matter, please do so off-list. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> Humberto >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>>> -- >>>> Take care, >>>> Ty >>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >>>> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>> that >>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>>> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: >> http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From anjehlessa at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 21:31:17 2012 From: anjehlessa at gmail.com (Rylie Robinson) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:31:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Message-ID: Hello all, I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from me will follow. My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in a public school setting. I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to see some of you in Dallas. Blessings to all, Rylie From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 21:56:18 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:56:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rylie, This was a good intro. What are your hobbies? I am a part time student at a community college pursuing a writing certificate; I already have a degree from MU but did not find work with the slow economy. I enjoy reading, walking, playing cards and writing. -----Original Message----- From: Rylie Robinson Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:31 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hello all, I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from me will follow. My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in a public school setting. I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to see some of you in Dallas. Blessings to all, Rylie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From anjehlessa at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 22:54:46 2012 From: anjehlessa at gmail.com (Rylie Robinson) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:54:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hobbies...I love to read and write also. music is a major passion of mine, singing especially. i also love being involved in athletics (swimming and goalball are my favorites when I am able to participate in them.) I am very involved in my church, so things such as missions work, bible studies, witnessing are all important to me. Cooking and baking are enjoyed; i really like experimenting with International cooking (Asian is my favorite at the moment.) What was your first degree in, if you don't mind me asking? Blessings, Rylie P.S. if the conversation between the two of us gets too long, feel free to Email me off-list. I don't know really what the etiquette is for the list, so I appologize in advance. On 6/28/12, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Rylie, > This was a good intro. What are your hobbies? > I am a part time student at a community college pursuing a writing > certificate; I already have a degree from MU but did not find work with the > > slow economy. > > I enjoy reading, walking, playing cards and writing. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rylie Robinson > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:31 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself > > Hello all, > > I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, > but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on > the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a > client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from > me will follow. > > My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana > university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying > Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to > earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in > a public school setting. > > I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of > quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best > ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around > the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to > see some of you in Dallas. > > Blessings to all, > Rylie > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjehlessa%40gmail.com > From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Jun 28 23:36:46 2012 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:36:46 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Packing for Convention and PAC Message-ID: <000001cd5586$e24fc670$a6ef5350$@labarrelaw.com> Fellow Federations, as we all start our journeys to Dallas for the 72nd Annual NFB Convention. We should all make sure that we pack for PAC. PAC is are preauthorized contribution Program where we can give monthly to the Federation. Every month, the amount you specify will be withdrawn from your account and put into the Federation's national treasurery. From you, we need either a voided check or the following information: your bank's name, your account number, and your bank's ABA routing number. Every bank has a routing number specific to them and that number is on your checks but anyone at your bank or a customer service agent for your bank can tell you that number. We will then set up a withdrawl every month at the amount you tell us to take. The minimum we can do is $5.00 and there is no upper limit. We will have the usual prizes and contests this year. The state affiliate with the most activity on the PAC Plan will win the PAC Rat and the division with the most activity will receive the PAC Meul and so on. Currently, we raise approximately 393,000 dollars a year on the PAC plan. I am confident that we can drive that figure well over 400,000 at this year's convention. So, don't forget to PAC and we will see you in Big D! Scott LaBarre Chairman, PAC Plan Committee From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 01:12:08 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:12:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001d01cd5594$3576eec0$a064cc40$@gmail.com> Hi Rylie, Good intro! Welcome back to the list! I look forward to seeing you contribute to our discussion, and to reading your future posts! As for an introduction of my own, I'll start out by saying that I might possibly be the youngest person on this list. My name is Chris, and I'm going into 9th grade in public school here in Maryland. By the way, I live about an hour away from our national center in Baltimore, so I go down there for a lot of NFB events. I'm interested in technology, blindness-related issues, and music, among other things. Speaking of music, I saw in another post you wrote that you are a singer, as am I. I'm still in the process of learning Braille music right now, though. I also enjoy surfing the Web, hanging out with friends, reading, and, like you, swimming and goalball. Again, welcome to the list, and I look forward to reading your contributions! Thanks and blessings, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rylie Robinson Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:31 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hello all, I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from me will follow. My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in a public school setting. I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to see some of you in Dallas. Blessings to all, Rylie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 01:37:03 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:37:03 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Rilie! Wow, we need good TVIs! Are you wanting to specialize in one area, or just be a full TVI? Does secondary English education talk about people learning things in their second language? Like if I'm Italian or German going to school in China? Or is it something totally different? I've never heard of that major before... Thanks and so nice to hear from another person! And especially one going to Dallas! Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Rylie Robinson Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 2:31 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hello all, I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from me will follow. My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in a public school setting. I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to see some of you in Dallas. Blessings to all, Rylie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 01:48:34 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:48:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: <001d01cd5594$3576eec0$a064cc40$@gmail.com> References: <001d01cd5594$3576eec0$a064cc40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to let you all know that If you have any questions about Braille Music or singing in general, that's my major, so I could probably help with any difficulties you're having. Also if you haven't yet read the website of MENVI, or joined, it is one of the best place for blind musicians period. They are more focused on classical and Jazz, but other kinds of music are definitely welcomed! Musictalk is another list that feels to me like a list of people who have music as a hobby and they are more focused on contemporary pop, Jazz and gospel. What kind of music do you like? Here's the link to MENVI: http://www.menvi.org/ Their archives of past news letters are amazing! A must read for any blind student learning music. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:12 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hi Rylie, Good intro! Welcome back to the list! I look forward to seeing you contribute to our discussion, and to reading your future posts! As for an introduction of my own, I'll start out by saying that I might possibly be the youngest person on this list. My name is Chris, and I'm going into 9th grade in public school here in Maryland. By the way, I live about an hour away from our national center in Baltimore, so I go down there for a lot of NFB events. I'm interested in technology, blindness-related issues, and music, among other things. Speaking of music, I saw in another post you wrote that you are a singer, as am I. I'm still in the process of learning Braille music right now, though. I also enjoy surfing the Web, hanging out with friends, reading, and, like you, swimming and goalball. Again, welcome to the list, and I look forward to reading your contributions! Thanks and blessings, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rylie Robinson Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:31 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hello all, I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from me will follow. My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in a public school setting. I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to see some of you in Dallas. Blessings to all, Rylie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 02:07:42 2012 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:07:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [nfb-talk] Introduction and Request for Assistance In-Reply-To: <4fea761b.83e6440a.2d15.1ad8@mx.google.com> References: <4fea761b.83e6440a.2d15.1ad8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <003b01cd559b$f87f8150$e97e83f0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Randy Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 10:55 PM To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org Subject: [nfb-talk] Introduction and Request for Assistance Greetings to the NFB Talk List: My name is Randy George, and I am a recent addition to the NFB talk list. I am a blind professional who lives and works in Sacramento, CA. Anyway, enough about me. This message is to announce that Audio Eyes, LLC, one of the nation's premier providers of Accessible Media is currently in the running for a $250,000 business grant, and we are asking for the support of the NFB community. Audio Eyes, LLC is owned, lead, and run by a primarily blind and disabled staff, and we are committed to employing qualified blind professionals to work in the Accessible Media industry. Audio Eyes, LLC specializes in Audio Description, otherwise known as video description; to include broadcast television, feature films, as well as educational materials for K through university level. Please click the below link, and then click on the "Login to Vote" link. Next search for Audio Eyes, LLC by name and vote for this cutting-edge company. Audio Eyes, LLC is an Accessible Media provider specializing in video description. Video description allows blind or visually impaired viewers access to vital nonverbal information without interrupting the natural flow or dialogue of the program. Audio Eyes, LLC is in the running for a $250,000 small business grant, and needs your support to win. Voting is free and only takes seconds. Please support our great cause and help us to bring Accessible Media to everyone. Thank you so much for your time! https://www.missionsmallbusiness.com/ Please repost if you feel compelled to do so! To visit our webpage and learn more about our company, please visit: http://www.audioeyesllc.com Thank you again so much for your time, and my most sincere apologies if I have sent this message to the incorrect list. Warmest Regards, Randy George _______________________________________________ nfb-talk mailing list nfb-talk at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfb-talk: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail .com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 02:09:04 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:09:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: References: <001d01cd5594$3576eec0$a064cc40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <929C52C3F3804455BF60F5DA0158FC7C@OwnerPC> Brandon, I might pass this note to a music major. What does menvi do? You said join, what is it about? A chat room, a forum? Good resource to have. This college friend is a music therapy major and probably could benefit from other music discussions of blind people. -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hello, Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to let you all know that If you have any questions about Braille Music or singing in general, that's my major, so I could probably help with any difficulties you're having. Also if you haven't yet read the website of MENVI, or joined, it is one of the best place for blind musicians period. They are more focused on classical and Jazz, but other kinds of music are definitely welcomed! Musictalk is another list that feels to me like a list of people who have music as a hobby and they are more focused on contemporary pop, Jazz and gospel. What kind of music do you like? Here's the link to MENVI: http://www.menvi.org/ Their archives of past news letters are amazing! A must read for any blind student learning music. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:12 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hi Rylie, Good intro! Welcome back to the list! I look forward to seeing you contribute to our discussion, and to reading your future posts! As for an introduction of my own, I'll start out by saying that I might possibly be the youngest person on this list. My name is Chris, and I'm going into 9th grade in public school here in Maryland. By the way, I live about an hour away from our national center in Baltimore, so I go down there for a lot of NFB events. I'm interested in technology, blindness-related issues, and music, among other things. Speaking of music, I saw in another post you wrote that you are a singer, as am I. I'm still in the process of learning Braille music right now, though. I also enjoy surfing the Web, hanging out with friends, reading, and, like you, swimming and goalball. Again, welcome to the list, and I look forward to reading your contributions! Thanks and blessings, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rylie Robinson Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:31 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hello all, I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from me will follow. My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in a public school setting. I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to see some of you in Dallas. Blessings to all, Rylie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dandrews at visi.com Fri Jun 29 02:14:34 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:14:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: California Association of Blind Students' fund raisers Message-ID: > > From the Golden State: > At this year's convention, the California Association of >Blind Students will be selling silk lanyards. These Lanyards are >blue with the whosit prominently displayed along it. These Lanyards are as >nice -looking as they are functional, no matter where you plan to go. Take >one to the gym, the campus, on vacation or give one to a family member who >wants to keep things a little more organized. >Lanyards sell for $5 each, so what do you have to lose? Certainly not your >Keys! We're also having what I like To call a 50-50 raffle with a kick; a >"50-50 Plus" raffle. Not only does the winner receive 50% of The money >earned from ticket sales, but we're throwing in an iClarity Bluetooth >speaker, valued at almost $100, courtesy of the San Francisco Lighthouse for >the Blind and Visually Impaired. This speaker's perfect for those of you who >like to have big sound in a small package. The iClarity is great for the >college dorm dweller, occasional convention hotel room party -thrower, or >just someone who is in the market for a nice little Bluetooth speaker-oh >yeah, and you'll win money too!--. >Tickets are going for $2 for what will be a pretty sweet take-away prize >(who says big things don't come in small packages?) So come see us at the >California table, booth 35 in the exhibit Hall, or track down anyone on the >CABS board. >See you in Dallas! >Angela Fowler From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 02:33:46 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:33:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: <929C52C3F3804455BF60F5DA0158FC7C@OwnerPC> References: <001d01cd5594$3576eec0$a064cc40$@gmail.com> <929C52C3F3804455BF60F5DA0158FC7C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hello, Both MENVI and musictalk are listsirves like the one we're talking on now! There is an application for joining MENVI on the website and Musictalk is on the NFB's big list of listsirves. (I may know your friend, is he going to UOP?) Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Brandon, I might pass this note to a music major. What does menvi do? You said join, what is it about? A chat room, a forum? Good resource to have. This college friend is a music therapy major and probably could benefit from other music discussions of blind people. -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hello, Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to let you all know that If you have any questions about Braille Music or singing in general, that's my major, so I could probably help with any difficulties you're having. Also if you haven't yet read the website of MENVI, or joined, it is one of the best place for blind musicians period. They are more focused on classical and Jazz, but other kinds of music are definitely welcomed! Musictalk is another list that feels to me like a list of people who have music as a hobby and they are more focused on contemporary pop, Jazz and gospel. What kind of music do you like? Here's the link to MENVI: http://www.menvi.org/ Their archives of past news letters are amazing! A must read for any blind student learning music. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:12 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hi Rylie, Good intro! Welcome back to the list! I look forward to seeing you contribute to our discussion, and to reading your future posts! As for an introduction of my own, I'll start out by saying that I might possibly be the youngest person on this list. My name is Chris, and I'm going into 9th grade in public school here in Maryland. By the way, I live about an hour away from our national center in Baltimore, so I go down there for a lot of NFB events. I'm interested in technology, blindness-related issues, and music, among other things. Speaking of music, I saw in another post you wrote that you are a singer, as am I. I'm still in the process of learning Braille music right now, though. I also enjoy surfing the Web, hanging out with friends, reading, and, like you, swimming and goalball. Again, welcome to the list, and I look forward to reading your contributions! Thanks and blessings, Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rylie Robinson Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:31 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Hello all, I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from me will follow. My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in a public school setting. I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to see some of you in Dallas. Blessings to all, Rylie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From anjehlessa at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 03:06:38 2012 From: anjehlessa at gmail.com (Rylie Robinson) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:06:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hello Brandon, Secondary English Education just means middle school/high school english (Secondary School as opposed to Primary School.) I was going to simply major in English, but if I am to teach blind students (braille specifically,) I figured getting some of the education out of the way would work out better in the long-run. Braille is what I would like to specialize in, but any TVI work could potentially be what I'm looking for. What I teach isn't what I'm particular about, but where. I would really like to work in a public school setting; I believe this is where a lot of the advocacy work would have to be done, and it's one of the best places to lay a foundation of high expectations, both the the blind students and to their sighted parents and educators. It's wonderful to see other blind musicians; I'll definitely have to check out those other mailing lists. Thanks a lot for the welcome, and i look forward to getting to know you better. Blessings, Rylie On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello Rilie! > Wow, we need good TVIs! Are you wanting to specialize in one area, or just > be a full TVI? > Does secondary English education talk about people learning things in their > > second language? Like if I'm Italian or German going to school in China? Or > > is it something totally different? I've never heard of that major before... > Thanks and so nice to hear from another person! And especially one going to > > Dallas! > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Rylie Robinson > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 2:31 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself > > Hello all, > > I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, > but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on > the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a > client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from > me will follow. > > My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana > university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying > Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to > earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in > a public school setting. > > I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of > quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best > ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around > the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to > see some of you in Dallas. > > Blessings to all, > Rylie > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjehlessa%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 04:42:47 2012 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (nabs.president at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:42:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Notes for June: Convention Edition Message-ID: <039301cd55b1$a33da170$e9b8e450$@gmail.com> Good evening, Please find attached, as well as pasted below, the monthly update from NABS. Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com www.nabslink.org NABS Notes June 2012 In this edition of NABS' monthly bulletin: 1) NABS Annual Meeting: Preregister and Win an iPod Touch 2) Come and See Us in the Exhibit Hall! 3) The Summer Slate is Off the Presses 4) New NABSLink.org Resource List Launched 5) State Updates 6) Meeting Minutes NABS Annual Meeting: Preregister and Win an iPod Touch We are excited to announce that NABS will be holding our annual seminar and business meeting at 7:00pm on Sunday, July 1 in the Stemmons Ballroom of the Hilton Anatole. This is a change from our location in prior years in Dallas. The Stemmons Ballroom is located on the lobby level of the atrium side of the hotel. Registration for the meeting will open at 6:15pm, and the meeting will begin promptly at 7:00. We strongly encourage you to come and register early. This year's agenda is packed, and we don't want you to miss out on any of the exciting and engaging presentations slated for the meeting. To encourage you to come a bit early, we will be entering everybody who is registered by 6:45 (not in line to register, but actually through the line and registered) into the door prize pool twice rather than once. So, you say, what's the big deal? Well my friends, the big deal is that we have excellent door prizes this year, including a little bit of cash and an iPod Touch, which was generously donated to NABS by Learning Ally. We will also be playing a variety of music in the meeting room during registration for your listening pleasure. So, come out early, chat with fellow students while waiting, and double your odds of walking out of the meeting with a brand new iPod Touch! Do you want to avoid that long registration line? Well, ask, and you shall receive. Thanks to the hard work of Mr. Tony Olivero, the NABS board is pleased to offer you the option of preregistering for the meeting. If you opt to do so, you will only need to provide your name or email address on meeting day, pay to register, and walk right in. Preregistrants will have their own faster-moving line and will be able to skip providing all their contact info. So, click right here and simplify your life! http://j.mp/NABS12 And, don't worry, as long as you are through the line by quarter to seven, you too will be double entered to win that iPod, some $$$, or other great door prizes. The agenda for the meeting is available in electronic format at http://www.nabslink.org. Hope to see you in Dallas! Come and See Us in the Exhibit Hall! This year you can find NABS in the convention exhibit hall at table 17 anytime the hall is open for business. Why would you want to do such a thing? Well, for starters, we are selling stylish custom slate cases. For another, you can purchase raffle tickets to win an iPad 16gb, iPhone accessories or Serotek DocuScan Plus software package. We also have info on NABS, as well as CDROMS with student resources. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we'd just love to chat with you about anything related to NABS, being a blind student, or anything else under the sun. Stop on by and say hello! The Summer Slate is Off the Presses The headline says it all! The summer Slate is ready for your enjoyment! You can find it at http://www.nabslink.org or you can find it attached to the email right next to this one in your inbox! New NABSLink.org Resource List Launched Thanks to the hard work of Meghan Whalen, Candice Chapman and the NABS website team, NABS is proud to launch a brand new list of resources of potential use to blind students. Please go to http://www.nabslink.org/resources.php check it out and let us know what you think! Have a comment? Know of a great resource for blind students that is missing? Send an email to nabs.president at gmail.com and let us know what we can do to improve it. State Updates California >From the Golden State: At this year's convention, the California Association of Blind Students will be selling silk lanyards. These Lanyards are blue with the whosit prominently displayed along it. These Lanyards are as nice -looking as they are functional, no matter where you plan to go. Take one to the gym, the campus, on vacation or give one to a family member who wants to keep things a little more organized. Lanyards sell for $5 each, so what do you have to lose? Certainly not your Keys! We're also having what I like To call a 50-50 raffle with a kick; a "50-50 Plus" raffle. Not only does the winner receive 50% of The money earned from ticket sales, but we're throwing in an iClarity Bluetooth speaker, valued at almost $100, courtesy of the San Francisco Lighthouse for the Blind and Visually Impaired. This speaker's perfect for those of you who like to have big sound in a small package. The iClarity is great for the college dorm dweller, occasional convention hotel room party -thrower, or just someone who is in the market for a nice little Bluetooth speaker-oh yeah, and you'll win money too!--. Tickets are going for $2 for what will be a pretty sweet take-away prize (who says big things don't come in small packages?) So come see us at the California table, booth 35 in the exhibit Hall, or track down anyone on the CABS board. See you in Dallas! Angela Fowler Connecticut Today, there is no Connecticut Association of Blind Students. On November 3, 2012, that can change. Trevor Attenberg and Justin Salisbury, two NFB of Connecticut students, are organizing a group of ambitious blind students in Connecticut to form the Connecticut Association of Blind Students. The founding will occur at the 2012 NFB of Connecticut State Convention at the Ramada Plaza Hotel in Hartford, CT. Interested students should contact Justin Salisbury at justin.salisbury at earthlink.net and make plans to attend the state convention! Georgia As we all know, convention can cost you an arm, a leg, and even some vital organs! Between your transportation, room reservation, and food; by the end of the week your pockets will be screaming in agony! Well the Georgia Association of Blind Students has got the answer to soften your financial blow. We will be raffling off a $75 Visa Gift card!! What's the price you ask. $1.!! That's right! ONE DOLLAR! Think about it. That 75 extra dollars to spend in the exhibit hall, Independence Market, or just treating your friends to a night out on the town!!! To purchase your tickets, contact any GABS member or stop by the Georgia table in the exhibit hall. We look forward to seeing everyone in Dallas!!! LaKeisha Holmes President Georgia Association of Blind Students Maryland We are hosting a "Back To School" Seminar for students from grades 6 - 12 and for college students. This seminar will happen on August 17, 2012 at a location to be determined. Please contact Melissa Lomax (mlomax1 at umbc.edu) for more information. Michigan The Michigan Association of Blind Students will be selling raffle tickets for either an iPod Touch 8 gig 4th generation or a $200 Apple gift card! Tickets are one for $5 or five for $20. You do not need to be present to win. One winner will be drawn, and they will be contacted to choose their prize. The winner will be drawn on Thursday, July 5th in the emerald Room, tower lobby after the morning general session. Missouri The Missouri association of blind students will be selling raffle tickets for the opportunity for two special guests to join Dr. Maurer and his wife for a delicious hot breakfast in the presidential suite at the convention hotel. The two winners will be drawn on the afternoon of Wednesday of national convention and contacted as soon as the names are drawn. Ticket prices are $2 for one ticket and you can get three tickets for $6 dollars. This is a special opportunity that will be very beneficial to the winners. Considering it is a private breakfast with our NFB president and his wife. Nevada Nevada NABS is fundraising. Our items are Las Vegas shot glasses for $5 and snack size bags of chex mix for $2. North Carolina The North Carolina Association of Blind Students will be selling Krispy Kreme doughnut vouchers at the 2012 national convention. These vouchers are redeemable for one dozen original glazed doughnuts and will be sold for $6.00. Depending on where in the United States you live, this ranges from a discount of $1.00 to $9.00. We have been actively discussing the Goodwill boycott and hosted an open call on Monday, June 18, featuring guest speaker Anil Lewis. Thanks to everyone who attended! We are preparing for our 2nd annual student track at our state convention in September, which will be held at the beautiful Camp Dogwood in Sherrills Ford, NC. This will be the first face-to-face NCABS event for a handful of new members, and we are excited! Utah We are selling shot glasses for five dollars apiece and are also selling seat cushions for five dollars apiece. Meeting Minutes Please find the minutes for NABS' June 2012 board meeting pasted below. As always, please do not hesitate to contact me with any questions, concerns or suggestions. The NABS Board works for you, and we want to know how we're doing! Thanks for reading, and we'll be back in July. Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com National Association of Blind Students Board Meeting Minutes June 17, 2012 Meeting called to order at 8:35 P.M. Members Present: Sean Whalen Karen Anderson Darian Smith Cindy Bennett Shelby Ball Candice Chapman Meghan Whalen Domonique Lawless Committee Reports Fundraising: There is a 3 prize raffle. Tickets are $5 for 1 or $20 for 5. You are entered to win 1 of 3 prizes-Serotek Docuscan, an Apple accessory bundle courtesy of Speed Dots, or an iPad 3 and accessory bundle. Sellers should take down names and phone numbers and the number of tickets someone buys. This information and money should be given to Karen Anderson, preferably electronically. Karen will combine the information in a spreadsheet and the drawing will take place at the end of banquet. NABS is partnering with a seamstress who can make custom slate cases. Cases will be made to order, 4 designs available. They are $15, and NABS gets $7 from each. Domonique will bring examples and order forms to convention, and orders will be taken. An Etsy page will be up for people who want to order themselves. Membership: The airport and convention calls went well. Slate: Convention edition will be published after 1 more article is received. Website: The resource page is ready for review by the board. Old Business Treasury report: savings $940.13 checking $379.14 A check to Darian of $525.40 was sent out reimbursing him for his Missouri and New Mexico rep trips. We still need to buy the Disney passes for Tony Olivero. J.J. sent Sean the Washington Seminar check for $1,275. Several board members have money from travel mugs and Apple TV ticket sales that will be turned in at convention. New Business The youth track is looking for volunteers especially for Saturday afternoon of convention. Candidate's forum: Mary Fernandez is coordinating the forum. Scott LaBarre is the MC. Please respond to Mary on when you prefer the call to be. Convention: Learning Ally donated an iPod Touch which will be given as the last door prize of the business meeting. We can give registrants before 6:45 2 entries into the door prize drawing. We need to scale the registration form back. People need to respond to the email with their thoughts so we can get it out soon. Business Meeting Responsibilities * Sean and Briley will set up audio equipment * Cindy, Karen, Darian, and Candice will run registration, and Shelby will be in charge of money. * Domonique will maintain the registration line and run the door prize drawing. * Candice will run door prizes to recipients. * Darian has a list in DropBox of interested marshaling volunteers. * Cindy will sit in the back and take information from late people or for P4P. * Candice will keep track of time. Sean is finalizing the agenda. Sean, Candice, and Cindy will burn informational CD's for the NABS exhibit hall table. Cindy, Sean, and Darian will take care of hospitality snacks. Darian made a motion to authorize $70 for the purchase of hospitality night refreshments. Domonique seconded, and the motion passed. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NABS Notes June 2012.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 23381 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nabs.president at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 04:46:41 2012 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (nabs.president at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:46:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Student Slate Summer 2012 Message-ID: <03c601cd55b2$2e527d30$8af77790$@gmail.com> The Slate team is proud to present the summer 2012 edition of our quarterly publication, the Student Slate! Happy Reading, Sean -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Complete Slate June_2012.doc Type: application/msword Size: 84480 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 04:51:31 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:51:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E1903FB26AA4AEC8346BD9E951B36BF@BrandonsLaptop2> Oh, that is cool! My mom is a TVI and she contracts out of Vista Center here in CA. I really think those kinds of organizations are the way to go for the school districts, because in my experience, Vista's workers have been eons higher quality than most of the TVIs I've had who were directly from the school. My mom runs the TVI program in a county with like 65 students or some huge number like that and in every place she's worked she's been given inhuman amounts of students. She's a full TVI who was trained at Steven F Austin University and she has never needed to look for TVI work. The supervisor from Vista flew from CA to Washington state just to have lunch with my mom and offer her the job. It's super awesome that you're planning on going into TVI work! It's probably one of the hardest jobs out there, just because of the work load, but it's super fulfilling when you realize how many people you've taught technology to, how many books your students have read, how much your students have learned thanks to your problem solving with the teachers and students as well as how many dreams your students have been able to follow because of the confidence and inspiration you've given them. (I wonder what it's like being the TVI of that girl who read 21 thousand pages? My word!) It might be a good idea to consider getting your masters in education as well. In today's age I believe teachers are best able to cope with the riggers of teaching with that masters. I'm not sure why, but all the totally best teachers I've had either had a masters, or had been teaching some 30+ years the same subject. My mom's favorite students are the little kids, 5 month to 9 year olds. They are the students who require the most intense attention because if they are stunted by their parents and deprived of their childhood, not aloud to fall off the monkey bars a couple hundred times, they will be considered developmentally delayed and their real world experience for how ever many years will have been taken away from them. It's been my observation that the middle school and high school students are more difficult relationship wise because often at that point the educational system has ground them into submission, so many times it's very difficult to get the student to learn. The secondary school students also have lots of social questions and problems, wanting a date for the prom, making friends, being scared of being on the dance teem... So lots of what my mom has to do is teach social skills to their students. (What does it look like to be in love? and other oddities) TVI is probably the most involved and problem solving job and I believe it's the most in demand. If one is just a Braille Teacher or VI instructor, they have to be darn good at what they do. For example I only had one Braille teacher who actually knew Braille music, Nemith, Grade 3 and all those other languages and were possibly able to teach them. And I had one VI instructor who actually knew how to problem solve and was super involved with the public transportation and knew all the city boards. It's crucial for a VI specialist to be up to date on what's going on with all 6 kinds of public transportation in each town and for them to actively be making sure cities remain accessible. When a student has a teacher who loves their subject, it's the difference from being OK to being exceptional. There can't be an exceptional teacher who doesn't find a modicum of pleasure in what they do. I think teaching is the hardest job and in my experience for every good teacher, there are at least 3 bad ones. If it was that our intelligences didn't mesh or what ever, I've been in classes where the teacher just couldn't communicate with me and in TVI classes, I've known more Braille than my Braille teacher in a few cases :(. I a plod, commend and admire you for wanting to be a TVI and I hope you come to CA and decrease the shortage a little! LOL Sorry for the long email... Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Rylie Robinson Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself hello Brandon, Secondary English Education just means middle school/high school english (Secondary School as opposed to Primary School.) I was going to simply major in English, but if I am to teach blind students (braille specifically,) I figured getting some of the education out of the way would work out better in the long-run. Braille is what I would like to specialize in, but any TVI work could potentially be what I'm looking for. What I teach isn't what I'm particular about, but where. I would really like to work in a public school setting; I believe this is where a lot of the advocacy work would have to be done, and it's one of the best places to lay a foundation of high expectations, both the the blind students and to their sighted parents and educators. It's wonderful to see other blind musicians; I'll definitely have to check out those other mailing lists. Thanks a lot for the welcome, and i look forward to getting to know you better. Blessings, Rylie On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello Rilie! > Wow, we need good TVIs! Are you wanting to specialize in one area, or just > be a full TVI? > Does secondary English education talk about people learning things in > their > > second language? Like if I'm Italian or German going to school in China? > Or > > is it something totally different? I've never heard of that major > before... > Thanks and so nice to hear from another person! And especially one going > to > > Dallas! > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Rylie Robinson > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 2:31 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself > > Hello all, > > I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, > but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on > the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a > client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from > me will follow. > > My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana > university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying > Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to > earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in > a public school setting. > > I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of > quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best > ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around > the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to > see some of you in Dallas. > > Blessings to all, > Rylie > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjehlessa%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 05:11:46 2012 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:11:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: <2E1903FB26AA4AEC8346BD9E951B36BF@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <2E1903FB26AA4AEC8346BD9E951B36BF@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Awesome post! I assume you're a student yourself? On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Oh, that is cool! > My mom is a TVI and she contracts out of Vista Center here in CA. I really > think those kinds of organizations are the way to go for the school > districts, because in my experience, Vista's workers have been eons higher > quality than most of the TVIs I've had who were directly from the school. > My mom runs the TVI program in a county with like 65 students or some huge > number like that and in every place she's worked she's been given inhuman > amounts of students. She's a full TVI who was trained at Steven F Austin > University and she has never needed to look for TVI work. The supervisor > from Vista flew from CA to Washington state just to have lunch with my mom > and offer her the job. It's super awesome that you're planning on going into > > TVI work! It's probably one of the hardest jobs out there, just because of > the work load, but it's super fulfilling when you realize how many people > you've taught technology to, how many books your students have read, how > much your students have learned thanks to your problem solving with the > teachers and students as well as how many dreams your students have been > able to follow because of the confidence and inspiration you've given them. > > (I wonder what it's like being the TVI of that girl who read 21 thousand > pages? My word!) > It might be a good idea to consider getting your masters in education as > well. In today's age I believe teachers are best able to cope with the > riggers of teaching with that masters. I'm not sure why, but all the totally > > best teachers I've had either had a masters, or had been teaching some 30+ > years the same subject. > My mom's favorite students are the little kids, 5 month to 9 year olds. They > > are the students who require the most intense attention because if they are > > stunted by their parents and deprived of their childhood, not aloud to fall > > off the monkey bars a couple hundred times, they will be considered > developmentally delayed and their real world experience for how ever many > years will have been taken away from them. It's been my observation that the > > middle school and high school students are more difficult relationship wise > > because often at that point the educational system has ground them into > submission, so many times it's very difficult to get the student to learn. > The secondary school students also have lots of social questions and > problems, wanting a date for the prom, making friends, being scared of being > > on the dance teem... So lots of what my mom has to do is teach social skills > > to their students. (What does it look like to be in love? and other > oddities) > > TVI is probably the most involved and problem solving job and I believe it's > > the most in demand. If one is just a Braille Teacher or VI instructor, they > > have to be darn good at what they do. For example I only had one Braille > teacher who actually knew Braille music, Nemith, Grade 3 and all those other > > languages and were possibly able to teach them. And I had one VI instructor > > who actually knew how to problem solve and was super involved with the > public transportation and knew all the city boards. It's crucial for a VI > specialist to be up to date on what's going on with all 6 kinds of public > transportation in each town and for them to actively be making sure cities > remain accessible. When a student has a teacher who loves their subject, > it's the difference from being OK to being exceptional. There can't be an > exceptional teacher who doesn't find a modicum of pleasure in what they do. > > I think teaching is the hardest job and in my experience for every good > teacher, there are at least 3 bad ones. If it was that our intelligences > didn't mesh or what ever, I've been in classes where the teacher just > couldn't communicate with me and in TVI classes, I've known more Braille > than my Braille teacher in a few cases :(. > I a plod, commend and admire you for wanting to be a TVI and I hope you come > > to CA and decrease the shortage a little! LOL > Sorry for the long email... > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Rylie Robinson > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:06 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself > > hello Brandon, > > Secondary English Education just means middle school/high school > english (Secondary School as opposed to Primary School.) I was going > to simply major in English, but if I am to teach blind students > (braille specifically,) I figured getting some of the education out of > the way would work out better in the long-run. Braille is what I would > like to specialize in, but any TVI work could potentially be what I'm > looking for. What I teach isn't what I'm particular about, but where. > I would really like to work in a public school setting; I believe this > is where a lot of the advocacy work would have to be done, and it's > one of the best places to lay a foundation of high expectations, both > the the blind students and to their sighted parents and educators. > > It's wonderful to see other blind musicians; I'll definitely have to > check out those other mailing lists. > > Thanks a lot for the welcome, and i look forward to getting to know you > better. > > Blessings, > Rylie > > On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello Rilie! >> Wow, we need good TVIs! Are you wanting to specialize in one area, or >> just >> be a full TVI? >> Does secondary English education talk about people learning things in >> their >> >> second language? Like if I'm Italian or German going to school in China? >> Or >> >> is it something totally different? I've never heard of that major >> before... >> Thanks and so nice to hear from another person! And especially one going >> to >> >> Dallas! >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rylie Robinson >> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 2:31 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself >> >> Hello all, >> >> I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, >> but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on >> the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a >> client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from >> me will follow. >> >> My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana >> university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying >> Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to >> earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in >> a public school setting. >> >> I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of >> quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best >> ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around >> the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to >> see some of you in Dallas. >> >> Blessings to all, >> Rylie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjehlessa%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 05:17:07 2012 From: avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com (Humberto Avila) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:17:07 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: <2E1903FB26AA4AEC8346BD9E951B36BF@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <2E1903FB26AA4AEC8346BD9E951B36BF@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <007001cd55b6$6ea41bb0$4bec5310$@gmail.com> I'm here to join this choir. I also want to become a teacher of the blind but I want to specialize in assistive technology and give support for, things like screen readers and note takers. My former teacher of the blind in high school told me that there aren't many teachers teaching in this area either. Since I am talented and passionate about technology is most likely that I can succeed teaching it to others and, I would be interested in teaching this. If I do become a teacher, I'll make an effort to teach in public school settings because, like rylie said, it is important for the mainstream society to know that blind people can succeed in public schools with their sighted peers, and I will advocate as well, for what has to be done in student's situations. Besides, I will try to get rid of the misperceptions of blindness among the public. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Oh, that is cool! My mom is a TVI and she contracts out of Vista Center here in CA. I really think those kinds of organizations are the way to go for the school districts, because in my experience, Vista's workers have been eons higher quality than most of the TVIs I've had who were directly from the school. My mom runs the TVI program in a county with like 65 students or some huge number like that and in every place she's worked she's been given inhuman amounts of students. She's a full TVI who was trained at Steven F Austin University and she has never needed to look for TVI work. The supervisor from Vista flew from CA to Washington state just to have lunch with my mom and offer her the job. It's super awesome that you're planning on going into TVI work! It's probably one of the hardest jobs out there, just because of the work load, but it's super fulfilling when you realize how many people you've taught technology to, how many books your students have read, how much your students have learned thanks to your problem solving with the teachers and students as well as how many dreams your students have been able to follow because of the confidence and inspiration you've given them. (I wonder what it's like being the TVI of that girl who read 21 thousand pages? My word!) It might be a good idea to consider getting your masters in education as well. In today's age I believe teachers are best able to cope with the riggers of teaching with that masters. I'm not sure why, but all the totally best teachers I've had either had a masters, or had been teaching some 30+ years the same subject. My mom's favorite students are the little kids, 5 month to 9 year olds. They are the students who require the most intense attention because if they are stunted by their parents and deprived of their childhood, not aloud to fall off the monkey bars a couple hundred times, they will be considered developmentally delayed and their real world experience for how ever many years will have been taken away from them. It's been my observation that the middle school and high school students are more difficult relationship wise because often at that point the educational system has ground them into submission, so many times it's very difficult to get the student to learn. The secondary school students also have lots of social questions and problems, wanting a date for the prom, making friends, being scared of being on the dance teem... So lots of what my mom has to do is teach social skills to their students. (What does it look like to be in love? and other oddities) TVI is probably the most involved and problem solving job and I believe it's the most in demand. If one is just a Braille Teacher or VI instructor, they have to be darn good at what they do. For example I only had one Braille teacher who actually knew Braille music, Nemith, Grade 3 and all those other languages and were possibly able to teach them. And I had one VI instructor who actually knew how to problem solve and was super involved with the public transportation and knew all the city boards. It's crucial for a VI specialist to be up to date on what's going on with all 6 kinds of public transportation in each town and for them to actively be making sure cities remain accessible. When a student has a teacher who loves their subject, it's the difference from being OK to being exceptional. There can't be an exceptional teacher who doesn't find a modicum of pleasure in what they do. I think teaching is the hardest job and in my experience for every good teacher, there are at least 3 bad ones. If it was that our intelligences didn't mesh or what ever, I've been in classes where the teacher just couldn't communicate with me and in TVI classes, I've known more Braille than my Braille teacher in a few cases :(. I a plod, commend and admire you for wanting to be a TVI and I hope you come to CA and decrease the shortage a little! LOL Sorry for the long email... Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Rylie Robinson Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself hello Brandon, Secondary English Education just means middle school/high school english (Secondary School as opposed to Primary School.) I was going to simply major in English, but if I am to teach blind students (braille specifically,) I figured getting some of the education out of the way would work out better in the long-run. Braille is what I would like to specialize in, but any TVI work could potentially be what I'm looking for. What I teach isn't what I'm particular about, but where. I would really like to work in a public school setting; I believe this is where a lot of the advocacy work would have to be done, and it's one of the best places to lay a foundation of high expectations, both the the blind students and to their sighted parents and educators. It's wonderful to see other blind musicians; I'll definitely have to check out those other mailing lists. Thanks a lot for the welcome, and i look forward to getting to know you better. Blessings, Rylie On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Hello Rilie! > Wow, we need good TVIs! Are you wanting to specialize in one area, or just > be a full TVI? > Does secondary English education talk about people learning things in > their > > second language? Like if I'm Italian or German going to school in China? > Or > > is it something totally different? I've never heard of that major > before... > Thanks and so nice to hear from another person! And especially one going > to > > Dallas! > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Rylie Robinson > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 2:31 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself > > Hello all, > > I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, > but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on > the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a > client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from > me will follow. > > My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana > university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying > Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to > earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in > a public school setting. > > I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of > quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best > ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around > the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to > see some of you in Dallas. > > Blessings to all, > Rylie > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai l.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjehlessa%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/avila.bert.humberto2%40g mail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 05:19:00 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:19:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: References: <2E1903FB26AA4AEC8346BD9E951B36BF@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <3F223D0CF9D844DCB681C39AC63C4660@BrandonsLaptop2> Yes, I'm a music student studying Opera/voice at CSU East Bay. Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: josh gregory Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Awesome post! I assume you're a student yourself? On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Oh, that is cool! > My mom is a TVI and she contracts out of Vista Center here in CA. I really > think those kinds of organizations are the way to go for the school > districts, because in my experience, Vista's workers have been eons higher > quality than most of the TVIs I've had who were directly from the school. > My mom runs the TVI program in a county with like 65 students or some huge > number like that and in every place she's worked she's been given inhuman > amounts of students. She's a full TVI who was trained at Steven F Austin > University and she has never needed to look for TVI work. The supervisor > from Vista flew from CA to Washington state just to have lunch with my mom > and offer her the job. It's super awesome that you're planning on going > into > > TVI work! It's probably one of the hardest jobs out there, just because of > the work load, but it's super fulfilling when you realize how many people > you've taught technology to, how many books your students have read, how > much your students have learned thanks to your problem solving with the > teachers and students as well as how many dreams your students have been > able to follow because of the confidence and inspiration you've given > them. > > (I wonder what it's like being the TVI of that girl who read 21 thousand > pages? My word!) > It might be a good idea to consider getting your masters in education as > well. In today's age I believe teachers are best able to cope with the > riggers of teaching with that masters. I'm not sure why, but all the > totally > > best teachers I've had either had a masters, or had been teaching some 30+ > years the same subject. > My mom's favorite students are the little kids, 5 month to 9 year olds. > They > > are the students who require the most intense attention because if they > are > > stunted by their parents and deprived of their childhood, not aloud to > fall > > off the monkey bars a couple hundred times, they will be considered > developmentally delayed and their real world experience for how ever many > years will have been taken away from them. It's been my observation that > the > > middle school and high school students are more difficult relationship > wise > > because often at that point the educational system has ground them into > submission, so many times it's very difficult to get the student to learn. > The secondary school students also have lots of social questions and > problems, wanting a date for the prom, making friends, being scared of > being > > on the dance teem... So lots of what my mom has to do is teach social > skills > > to their students. (What does it look like to be in love? and other > oddities) > > TVI is probably the most involved and problem solving job and I believe > it's > > the most in demand. If one is just a Braille Teacher or VI instructor, > they > > have to be darn good at what they do. For example I only had one Braille > teacher who actually knew Braille music, Nemith, Grade 3 and all those > other > > languages and were possibly able to teach them. And I had one VI > instructor > > who actually knew how to problem solve and was super involved with the > public transportation and knew all the city boards. It's crucial for a VI > specialist to be up to date on what's going on with all 6 kinds of public > transportation in each town and for them to actively be making sure cities > remain accessible. When a student has a teacher who loves their subject, > it's the difference from being OK to being exceptional. There can't be an > exceptional teacher who doesn't find a modicum of pleasure in what they > do. > > I think teaching is the hardest job and in my experience for every good > teacher, there are at least 3 bad ones. If it was that our intelligences > didn't mesh or what ever, I've been in classes where the teacher just > couldn't communicate with me and in TVI classes, I've known more Braille > than my Braille teacher in a few cases :(. > I a plod, commend and admire you for wanting to be a TVI and I hope you > come > > to CA and decrease the shortage a little! LOL > Sorry for the long email... > Thanks, > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: Rylie Robinson > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:06 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself > > hello Brandon, > > Secondary English Education just means middle school/high school > english (Secondary School as opposed to Primary School.) I was going > to simply major in English, but if I am to teach blind students > (braille specifically,) I figured getting some of the education out of > the way would work out better in the long-run. Braille is what I would > like to specialize in, but any TVI work could potentially be what I'm > looking for. What I teach isn't what I'm particular about, but where. > I would really like to work in a public school setting; I believe this > is where a lot of the advocacy work would have to be done, and it's > one of the best places to lay a foundation of high expectations, both > the the blind students and to their sighted parents and educators. > > It's wonderful to see other blind musicians; I'll definitely have to > check out those other mailing lists. > > Thanks a lot for the welcome, and i look forward to getting to know you > better. > > Blessings, > Rylie > > On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Hello Rilie! >> Wow, we need good TVIs! Are you wanting to specialize in one area, or >> just >> be a full TVI? >> Does secondary English education talk about people learning things in >> their >> >> second language? Like if I'm Italian or German going to school in China? >> Or >> >> is it something totally different? I've never heard of that major >> before... >> Thanks and so nice to hear from another person! And especially one going >> to >> >> Dallas! >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rylie Robinson >> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 2:31 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself >> >> Hello all, >> >> I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, >> but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on >> the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a >> client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from >> me will follow. >> >> My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana >> university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying >> Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to >> earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in >> a public school setting. >> >> I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of >> quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best >> ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around >> the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to >> see some of you in Dallas. >> >> Blessings to all, >> Rylie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjehlessa%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com From nabs.president at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 06:26:54 2012 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (nabs.president at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 02:26:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Elections: Sean Whalen for President Message-ID: <040a01cd55c0$2e2b8be0$8a82a3a0$@gmail.com> Good morning, As most of you likely know, I have served for the past year as the President of the National Association of Blind Students. While I have certainly made some mistakes over these twelve months, I am generally quite pleased with the progress NABS has continued to make. I would like the opportunity to continue serving you in this capacity for another two years to continue to build on the progress NABS has made over the last several years under the leadership, of first Arielle Silverman, and now myself. Over this last year NABS has: · Strengthened ties with state student divisions · Instituted bimonthly conference calls for state student division presidents and the NABS board · Had NABS board members in attendance at 21 state student division seminars and state conventions (an increase of over 67% over two years ago) · Continued providing monthly updates on goings on to our membership · Reached out via our High School Committee to younger students to incorporate them more strongly into NABS · Published four more quality issues of the Student Slate · Held monthly membership calls on various topics of interest to blind students · Built a membership database to allow NABS, for the first time in a long time, to keep track of our membership · Executed the most successful NABS fundraiser in at least the last seven years, raising over $2,000 with our auction/open mic at Washington Seminar · Secured a commitment from our NFB national office to hold a student leadership seminar in the fall of 2012 · Gained the support of the NFB Affiliate Action team to create a multimedia CDROM informational/recruitment tool None of this, of course, would have been possible without the hard work of the entire NABS board, and several other members who volunteered their time. However, I believe that this demonstrates that I am capable of setting a course and working with others to get things accomplished. Some of you may recall, about a year ago, when I wrote a statement similar to this one asking for your support in another election. I then indicated that I wanted to make communication and collaboration priorities over this year. I think that, by and large, we have succeeded in both of these areas. While I certainly intend to continue these improvements over the next term, I would like to expand our goals to include outreach and expansion. Consider the following two suggestions on how we might increase our membership, and make membership more beneficial to those who are currently involved: There are a whole lot of blind students out there who have no idea about NABS or the NFB. I believe that one of the primary purposes of NABS is to introduce younger folks to the NFB, the many resources it has to offer, and its positive philosophy on blindness. It is absolutely important for NABS to reach out and more strongly incorporate students who go through our Jernigan Institute’s programs like Youth Slam and LAW, but it is at least as important to reach out to students to whom we do not have immediate access. If elected, I will work to ensure that NABS reaches out to teachers, VR professionals, and others in the blindness field to bring our message to students who would otherwise never hear it. I am not so naïve as to think that our message will always be received with open arms, but taking those risks and putting ourselves out there can, and I believe will, have a large payoff in new students reached. I believe that the aforementioned multimedia recruitment CDROM could be a very useful tool in these efforts. I also would, contingent on available funds and location, work to find opportunities for NABS leaders to address, meet with, or otherwise engage with professionals in the blindness field outside of the NFB. I also believe that we can improve the quality of information we provide to, and dialogue we engage in, with individuals both inside and outside of our organization. In particular, as was suggested to me by a very clever member of our Board (Briley Pollard), NABS could be much more effective in engaging on social media platforms. I agree 100%, and, if elected, will appoint one volunteer as Social Media Coordinator. Having one person in charge of creating and implementing a strategy to maximize our effectiveness on outreach, information sharing, and engaging in interactive dialogue on social media will put a stronger focus on this important aspect of the work we do. These, of course, are only my ideas. I would welcome the opportunity to discuss the thoughts of everybody in NABS, both on and off the board, to establish a path forward to grow the organization. I am proud of the progress we have made in recent years. I am passionate about the work we do in NABS and the NFB, and I know I have the energy to continue to do it for two more years. I’ve learned a lot over this year, and would love to have the opportunity to put lessons learned into practice. I want to work with all of you to further the goals of the federation and build a brighter future for blind students everywhere. I humbly ask for your vote on July 1. If you have any questions for me or wish to discuss anything, please do not hesitate to contact me. Sincerely, Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 Nabs.president at gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 07:33:05 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:33:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Reaching out to the young? Message-ID: <03E6236315E743F5AFB761F2418AC6AD@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello, The people running for the Nabs leadership positions this year have been in agreement on one topic: Getting younger people into Nabs. I'm wondering what thoughts and ideas people have on doing this? My thoughts: I am super new to NABS, only joining the listsirve last month and that was only because I wanted to learn about the people I would be meeting this year in Dallas because I won a scholarship. Now I'm all excited about the community we have here and that we have a place to discuss issues and problem solve on things we all can relate to. The reason why I didn't join before this was because I had no idea there was a listsirve, and I'm not aware of a Nabs chapter within 20 miles of my house. I'd love to see first a Nabs chapter created for those who don't know of a chapter near them and who are a little nervous about joining a chapter. This would mean that one wouldn't need to travel to go to the meeting. I'd love to see a nabs group that's totally through a social conferencing system like Skype. That way we can participate no matter where we are. I'm not sure if the big national Nabs meetings are public on Skype or something comparable, but I'd like to know if there is a Skype meeting I can join! This not only would allow people to attend meetings from their home, they can get to know the community of Nabs before going to a chapter meeting live. They also don't need to say anything. I'm also wondering why I never got an email from Nabs asking me to join the listsirve when I was told that I was a scholarship winner? Patty Chang and Lorraine Rovig send us something about every day talking about stuff going on on other listsirves, why hasn't a message from Sean shown in there? Also, I would love a place to point my blind friends to who are scared of NABS because they think they're a bunch of "Militant students who flay you alive with pointy canes if you don't do everything independently". They could sign up for the list serve, but what if they don't want to read a ton of messages all the time in their inbox? Is there someone who is really good with people who can reach out to these people and be willing to talk to them through email or some way? And is there a place in NABS for people like that? People want to know how they can make a difference when they join a group like NABS. I need someone who will tell me I'm needed and wanted because I can do something! There are also people who are not computer nerds and how can we reach them? Someone in the middle of the rainforest in Oregon, how are they going to hear about and participate in nabs? The key to the success of just about anything is marketing, marketing, marketing. So how can NABS develop its marketing to the fullest? Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 15:18:39 2012 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:18:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Enjoy NFB2012 Message-ID: <3A6765CB426B4C298842A5A4391FEE12@AnjelinaPC> Hello fellow students, I hope those who are attending convention have a fun, informational and motivating time in Dallas. I look forward to hearing about everyone's experiences once you recover from your busy sleepless week. Hopefully I’ll be able to tune into the live stream throughout the week. Anjelina -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gloria.graves at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 15:51:33 2012 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria G) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:51:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Enjoy NFB2012 References: <3A6765CB426B4C298842A5A4391FEE12@AnjelinaPC> Message-ID: Hi, What was this supose to be? i tried to open it and nothing happened. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anjelina" To: Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 10:18 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Enjoy NFB2012 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 16:40:29 2012 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:40:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Enjoy NFB2012 In-Reply-To: <3A6765CB426B4C298842A5A4391FEE12@AnjelinaPC> References: <3A6765CB426B4C298842A5A4391FEE12@AnjelinaPC> Message-ID: <8C0AE7CE9D4C479E99C15081AD3B188C@OwnerPC> this message was blank other than the picture -----Original Message----- From: Anjelina Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:18 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Enjoy NFB2012 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Jun 29 16:44:40 2012 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:44:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Enjoy NFB2012 In-Reply-To: <8C0AE7CE9D4C479E99C15081AD3B188C@OwnerPC> References: <3A6765CB426B4C298842A5A4391FEE12@AnjelinaPC> <8C0AE7CE9D4C479E99C15081AD3B188C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4FEDDB78.5060306@tysdomain.com> It wasn't blank. I think her email client is sending mime information that yours isn't reading. She basically just wished everyone to have a good time. On 6/29/2012 10:40 AM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > this message was blank other than the picture > > -----Original Message----- From: Anjelina > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:18 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Enjoy NFB2012 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine: http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 17:10:08 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:10:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about iphone email Message-ID: <4fede1a8.5272ec0a.6168.fffff979@mx.google.com> Dear All, I was wondering, if you get an e-mail on your iPhone with an attachment, is there any way to open the attachment on the iPhone? I would appreciate it if you guys would help me with this. Best wishes, Sophie From philso1003 at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 17:07:13 2012 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Philip S) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 13:07:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Using smartphone for school? Message-ID: Hi guys, Just curious. Do you use your smartphone to help you learn, study, manage schoolwork? If so, what apps do you use and what do you use it for? To take notes? To listen to DAISY? To help you do a chemistry lab project? Please do share your experience with the group. Thanks. Phil From nbrav003 at fiu.edu Fri Jun 29 18:08:09 2012 From: nbrav003 at fiu.edu (Nallym Bravo) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 13:08:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about iphone email In-Reply-To: <4fede1a8.5272ec0a.6168.fffff979@mx.google.com> References: <4fede1a8.5272ec0a.6168.fffff979@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sophie, You can generally view most attachments right from mail on the iPhone. At the end of the message text, VoiceOver will read you the name of the attached file. Double tapping it will open it if it is in a supported file format. Pdf's, powerpoints, word documents, text files, pictures, videos, and spreadsheets can all be viewed from mail. There may also be additional formats supported, but that is all I can think of offthe top of my head. While you can view the attachments, you can't edit them unless you have the app associated with the file. So for example, if you want to open and edit a doc file, you need to have an application like pages installed on your phone. Once you open the attachment from mail, there is a button labled action on the top right hand corner. double tap that, and you will see a list of options, including one to open it with the correct application. Hope that helps, and let me know if you have any other questions. Best, Nallym On 6/29/12, Sophie Trist wrote: > Dear All, > > I was wondering, if you get an e-mail on your iPhone with an > attachment, is there any way to open the attachment on the > iPhone? I would appreciate it if you guys would help me with > this. > Best wishes, > Sophie > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nbrav003%40fiu.edu > From nbrav003 at fiu.edu Fri Jun 29 18:15:37 2012 From: nbrav003 at fiu.edu (Nallym Bravo) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 13:15:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using smartphone for school? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Phil, My iPhone is what keeps me organized. I use the calendar and reminders to stay on top of homework and meetings. I use pages together with a blue tooth keyboard to right notes or even do homework on the go. As an English major, many of the texts I use for class are on iBooks which is great. I also use language apps like Verb2Verb and google translate when I need a quick fix in a French class. Even apps like Wikipedia are helpful, not for any serious research but when I'm trying to get broad ideas and general background information. Best of all, FIU has its own app. I use that to register for classes, view my online courses, keep up with campus news, etc. The app is actually super accessible which makes my life awesome. Honestly, I use my phone so much that I don't even think about it any more. There are countless other ways, I could go on and on. I didn't really realize it until I started writing this response, but I'd say that having a smart phone has really helped me be productive, efficient, and organized. Best, Nallym On 6/29/12, Philip S wrote: > Hi guys, > > Just curious. Do you use your smartphone to help you learn, study, > manage schoolwork? If so, what apps do you use and what do you use it > for? To take notes? To listen to DAISY? To help you do a chemistry lab > project? Please do share your experience with the group. > > Thanks. > > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nbrav003%40fiu.edu > From anjehlessa at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 19:21:32 2012 From: anjehlessa at gmail.com (Rylie Robinson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 15:21:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: <3F223D0CF9D844DCB681C39AC63C4660@BrandonsLaptop2> References: <2E1903FB26AA4AEC8346BD9E951B36BF@BrandonsLaptop2> <3F223D0CF9D844DCB681C39AC63C4660@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: Wow Thank you! It's really good to know firsthand (well actually secondhand,) what a TVI has to go through on a rather day-to-day basis. 65 students sounds like an incredible amount, but I can completely understand where she's coming from when it comes to how rewarding that job must be. It's also reassuring to know that the job is really in demand. Well, reassuring to me, but not to the thousands of students who aren't getting the services they need. There may be a shortage, but the problem stems from the fact that states don't want to spend the money to hire what they consider as extra service. Even though Braille, assistive tech, and mobility are some of the most important alternative techniques blind students must learn, school districts expect students to learn it within insufficient time amounts (one hour a week for Braille isn't going to come to much.) I honestly had no idea about a lot of these issues until I attended the Louisiana Center for the Blind after graduating high school. I actually had my life all planned out, but going there and exposing myself to the issues of Braille illiteracy changed everything around. You're absolutely right when you say that most teachers really don't know much when it comes to Braille. In a lot of cases, teachers only have to take the minimum requirement of Braille education for themselves and then they're certified to teach it to other students. No wonder these students aren't learning it; if teachers aren't comfortable teaching it, they'll simply find other ways to teach reading and writing that doesn't involve Braille. I commend the NFB on their Braille literacy campaigns, and the fact that they are really trying to up the standards for teachers being able to acquire certification. It's so important to know your subject before teaching it. I think it's really interesting that your mom talked a lot about teaching middle and high school students social skills. I've always said that if I were to go in to this field, a main part of my job would be teaching, but there would be a whole other side to it. I thought a lot about the advocacy aspect and helping to show sighted parents and educators that blind students have potential, but it's just as important to lead by example when dealing with the students themselves. If I am to work with middle and high school students, it will be my obligation, as a blind teacher, to be a positive role model, and that the blind truly can be successful. That will definitely be a challenge, and one that I'll be willing to meet when it comes. Just out of curiosity, how did your mom get involved in TVI work? Is she sighted or does she also have a visual impairment? Blessings, Rylie P.S. I saw on another post that you are also a scholarship winner. Congradulations, and I sincerely look forward to meeting you as a fellow member of the 2012 scholarship class in Dallas. On 6/29/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Yes, I'm a music student studying Opera/voice at CSU East Bay. > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: josh gregory > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself > > Awesome post! I assume you're a student yourself? > > On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Oh, that is cool! >> My mom is a TVI and she contracts out of Vista Center here in CA. I >> really >> think those kinds of organizations are the way to go for the school >> districts, because in my experience, Vista's workers have been eons >> higher >> quality than most of the TVIs I've had who were directly from the school. >> My mom runs the TVI program in a county with like 65 students or some >> huge >> number like that and in every place she's worked she's been given inhuman >> amounts of students. She's a full TVI who was trained at Steven F Austin >> University and she has never needed to look for TVI work. The supervisor >> from Vista flew from CA to Washington state just to have lunch with my >> mom >> and offer her the job. It's super awesome that you're planning on going >> into >> >> TVI work! It's probably one of the hardest jobs out there, just because >> of >> the work load, but it's super fulfilling when you realize how many people >> you've taught technology to, how many books your students have read, how >> much your students have learned thanks to your problem solving with the >> teachers and students as well as how many dreams your students have been >> able to follow because of the confidence and inspiration you've given >> them. >> >> (I wonder what it's like being the TVI of that girl who read 21 thousand >> pages? My word!) >> It might be a good idea to consider getting your masters in education as >> well. In today's age I believe teachers are best able to cope with the >> riggers of teaching with that masters. I'm not sure why, but all the >> totally >> >> best teachers I've had either had a masters, or had been teaching some >> 30+ >> years the same subject. >> My mom's favorite students are the little kids, 5 month to 9 year olds. >> They >> >> are the students who require the most intense attention because if they >> are >> >> stunted by their parents and deprived of their childhood, not aloud to >> fall >> >> off the monkey bars a couple hundred times, they will be considered >> developmentally delayed and their real world experience for how ever many >> years will have been taken away from them. It's been my observation that >> the >> >> middle school and high school students are more difficult relationship >> wise >> >> because often at that point the educational system has ground them into >> submission, so many times it's very difficult to get the student to >> learn. >> The secondary school students also have lots of social questions and >> problems, wanting a date for the prom, making friends, being scared of >> being >> >> on the dance teem... So lots of what my mom has to do is teach social >> skills >> >> to their students. (What does it look like to be in love? and other >> oddities) >> >> TVI is probably the most involved and problem solving job and I believe >> it's >> >> the most in demand. If one is just a Braille Teacher or VI instructor, >> they >> >> have to be darn good at what they do. For example I only had one Braille >> teacher who actually knew Braille music, Nemith, Grade 3 and all those >> other >> >> languages and were possibly able to teach them. And I had one VI >> instructor >> >> who actually knew how to problem solve and was super involved with the >> public transportation and knew all the city boards. It's crucial for a VI >> specialist to be up to date on what's going on with all 6 kinds of public >> transportation in each town and for them to actively be making sure >> cities >> remain accessible. When a student has a teacher who loves their subject, >> it's the difference from being OK to being exceptional. There can't be an >> exceptional teacher who doesn't find a modicum of pleasure in what they >> do. >> >> I think teaching is the hardest job and in my experience for every good >> teacher, there are at least 3 bad ones. If it was that our intelligences >> didn't mesh or what ever, I've been in classes where the teacher just >> couldn't communicate with me and in TVI classes, I've known more Braille >> than my Braille teacher in a few cases :(. >> I a plod, commend and admire you for wanting to be a TVI and I hope you >> come >> >> to CA and decrease the shortage a little! LOL >> Sorry for the long email... >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rylie Robinson >> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:06 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself >> >> hello Brandon, >> >> Secondary English Education just means middle school/high school >> english (Secondary School as opposed to Primary School.) I was going >> to simply major in English, but if I am to teach blind students >> (braille specifically,) I figured getting some of the education out of >> the way would work out better in the long-run. Braille is what I would >> like to specialize in, but any TVI work could potentially be what I'm >> looking for. What I teach isn't what I'm particular about, but where. >> I would really like to work in a public school setting; I believe this >> is where a lot of the advocacy work would have to be done, and it's >> one of the best places to lay a foundation of high expectations, both >> the the blind students and to their sighted parents and educators. >> >> It's wonderful to see other blind musicians; I'll definitely have to >> check out those other mailing lists. >> >> Thanks a lot for the welcome, and i look forward to getting to know you >> better. >> >> Blessings, >> Rylie >> >> On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>> Hello Rilie! >>> Wow, we need good TVIs! Are you wanting to specialize in one area, or >>> just >>> be a full TVI? >>> Does secondary English education talk about people learning things in >>> their >>> >>> second language? Like if I'm Italian or German going to school in China? >>> Or >>> >>> is it something totally different? I've never heard of that major >>> before... >>> Thanks and so nice to hear from another person! And especially one going >>> to >>> >>> Dallas! >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rylie Robinson >>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 2:31 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, >>> but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on >>> the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a >>> client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from >>> me will follow. >>> >>> My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana >>> university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying >>> Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to >>> earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in >>> a public school setting. >>> >>> I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of >>> quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best >>> ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around >>> the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to >>> see some of you in Dallas. >>> >>> Blessings to all, >>> Rylie >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjehlessa%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Ways to Connect with me: > > facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo > > twitter.com/joshg93 > Skype: joshgregory93 > FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjehlessa%40gmail.com > From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 20:49:52 2012 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 15:49:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about iphone email In-Reply-To: References: <4fede1a8.5272ec0a.6168.fffff979@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <71AF490B-9C45-4B05-A918-D77EAC157CAD@gmail.com> Thanks so much for your help, Nallym. I appreciate it. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 29, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Nallym Bravo wrote: > Sophie, > You can generally view most attachments right from mail on the iPhone. > At the end of the message text, VoiceOver will read you the name of > the attached file. Double tapping it will open it if it is in a > supported file format. > Pdf's, powerpoints, word documents, text files, pictures, videos, and > spreadsheets can all be viewed from mail. There may also be additional > formats supported, but that is all I can think of offthe top of my > head. > While you can view the attachments, you can't edit them unless you > have the app associated with the file. > So for example, if you want to open and edit a doc file, you need to > have an application like pages installed on your phone. Once you open > the attachment from mail, there is a button labled action on the top > right hand corner. double tap that, and you will see a list of > options, including one to open it with the correct application. > Hope that helps, and let me know if you have any other questions. > > Best, > Nallym > > On 6/29/12, Sophie Trist wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I was wondering, if you get an e-mail on your iPhone with an >> attachment, is there any way to open the attachment on the >> iPhone? I would appreciate it if you guys would help me with >> this. >> Best wishes, >> Sophie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nbrav003%40fiu.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Fri Jun 29 21:33:02 2012 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 16:33:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Please take a moment to tell NSF and the Dept. of Ed. about the need for accessible mathematics Message-ID: > >[Apologies in advance for sending this out to multiple lists] > >There's a relatively painless way you can comment to the National >Science Foundation and the Department of Education about the need >for accessibility to mathematics in education. But be forewarned >that the deadline is July 1 (this Sunday), so be sure to submit >something this week. > >There's a very brief survey which the NSF and Dept. of Ed. are >asking people to fill out concerning a new jointly-funded K-16 >Mathematics Education Initiative. I think it is important that the >feds hear about the issues students with disabilities face when >learning mathematics, and in particular the problems created by >inaccessible mathematics instructional content and assessments. > >There's only two items they ask for: >(1) Explain the priority issue, challenge, or opportunity; provide a >brief rationale for its importance; and comment on the implications >it has for the teaching and learning of mathematics at the K-16 level. >(2) Provide the evidence or research base that supports the priority >issue, challenge, or opportunity you have identified, including >references, if appropriate. > >Here's a direct link to the survey: >http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/k_16_initiative > >Here's a link to the Dear Colleague letter giving more background on >the initiative: http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2012/nsf12080/nsf12080.jsp > >Finally, if you would like a few references for items to support the >need for accessible mathematics, you could take a look at this page: >http://metrc.uoregon.edu/index.php/related-questions/122-how-can-mathematical-text-be-made-accessible-to-students-with-print-disabilities.html > >Even if you only have a few minutes to submit a couple of sentences, >that would be better than silence. Perhaps if the feds hear from >enough people they may set aside some of the $60 million they >mention to working on the problem. > >Best regards, > >--Steve Noble >steve.noble at louisville.edu >502-969-3088 From kea.anderson at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 07:30:17 2012 From: kea.anderson at gmail.com (Karen Anderson) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 02:30:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Karen Anderson for President Message-ID: Fellow NABS Members: I'd like to take a moment and thank those of you who took the time to submit questions to the Candidate Forum. Your questions were thoughtful and insightful, and provided a great opportunity to solidify my thoughts about this organization and why I want to be its president. During the past three years, in which I have served as your 1st vice president, I have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge about you, my fellow students. I have learned what is important to you, I have spent time talking to you about issues you face, solutions you would like to see, and doing everything I can to make all of these ideas and wishes coalesce into an organization we can all be proud of. I believe that in order to continue to build the organization you all have lead me to understand you want, it is necessary for me to seek the office of president. I hope my answers to the questions you posed to the candidates (both attached to this message and pasted at the end) help you learn more about me and what I want to do for NABS, and you. Please feel free to contact me with any questions, comments, concerns, or ideas you have. My contact information is below my signature. I hope I can count on your vote Sunday evening. sincerely, Karen Anderson, 1st vice president National Association of Blind Students (402) 319-7645 kea.anderson at gmail.com Twitter: @kea_anderson Candidate Forum Questions: For Karen Anderson 1. What has NABS accomplished this year under your direction? Firstly, to be clear and fair to everyone involved, while I have been involved in, and lead, a good number of projects everything this organization accomplishes is a team effort. That said, I have helped spearhead the Student Slate, Pennies for Pages, and some of our fundraising efforts at Washington Seminar. I was also privileged to be a NABS rep at the Ohio and Maryland conventions, and at Maryland’s student seminar earlier in the year. 2. What will NABS accomplish under your direction that it is not doing currently? If I am elected president, NABS will reach out to a more diverse population of students. I firmly believe every student should have a voice in NABS whether they are in middle school, a nontraditional student with a full-time job, or fall somewhere else within the realm of considering oneself a student. I would also like to see us build a stronger relationship with our parent organization. The Jernigan Institute, and other departments within the National center for the Blind, do incredible work for and with students. As the voice of the Nation’s blind students, NABS must be more deeply involved with this work. It is our responsibility as students active in the movement to work closely with those who have the knowledge and experience to help guide student issues to the forefront of legislative and social advocacy. You all know there is a staggering unemployment rate among the blind. One of the key ways to improve this is to ensure that everyone has the educational opportunities necessary to become successfully employed. A strong bond between the National Center for the Blind and the National Association of Blind Students is key to ensuring this can happen. As president, one of my highest priorities would be to work together to change what it means to be a blind student in America. I want to reach out to students who have not yet been introduced to the NFB. I have come across a number of conferences for young blind people that do not include representation from advocacy organizations. It is important to ensure that the blind speak for ourselves. I would like to see us have representation at non-NFB conferences to raise awareness of what we do, and what we can do for blind students. General Questions for Presidential Candidates. 1. Why are you running for the NABS presidency? I am running for the NABS presidency because I believe NABS has the potential to grow beyond what it currently is. NABS can be an invaluable resource for students and should always be the first place a blind student wants to turn when they have questions or concerns. I believe I have the ideas, the drive, and the leadership abilities to make this happen. I believe with my talents, skills, direction, and most importantly your help, NABS will be unstoppable. 2. If elected, what specific projects will you attempt to implement which aren’t being implemented already? In addition to the projects I have discussed previously, NABS needs to ensure we are using available technologies to leverage our membership, and reach out to new students. I would like to work on increasing the use of social media as a tool for conversation and recruitment, in addition to being a tool for the dissemination of information. I would like to harness the power of some of the long-running threads on the NABS e-mail list to build a searchable resource for frequently asked questions and often discussed topics. In this way, students can find answers that have already been posted on a specific topic, and be more prepared to seek clarifying information applicable to their specific situation. Recently, NABS has begun the development of a membership database. I would like to see this work continue, and extend to other parts of the website, allowing for more efficient updates and posting of content. This will ensure that items like contact information, such as that for student divisions and community resources, is updated efficiently and in a timely manner. 3. What traits do you possess which make you better suited for the position of NABS president? Besides my position on the NABS board I am the president of the Nebraska Association of Blind Students, a division of NABS that has seen continuous growth during my tenure. The leadership skills and ability to think creatively to solve problems that have served me so well at a state level will also serve me well as NABS president. I am able to relate to students of any age. Having worked with summer program students and seen their successes and stumbling blocks, and having friends who are considered working-students, I have a grasp on the issues that face those who are not in my immediate peer group, but are nevertheless students, and important voices in NABS. In addition, as a full-time undergraduate student I am intimately familiar with the day-to-day experiences and challenges of being a blind student in this ever changing educational environment. 4. It seems that, in recent years, NABS has been heading in a positive direction. If things are going well, why should we support a change in leadership While I agree that NABS has been heading in a generally positive direction I still believe there is room for improvement. My personality and leadership style make me the candidate best able to lead NABS in the years to come, and implementing the projects I have outlined will strengthen the organization and continue the positive trend. 5. What do you feel is the biggest strength that your opponent would bring to the position if elected? The biggest strength Sean brings to the Presidency, were he to be reelected, is continuity of leadership. While this can be important, it can also be a hindrance to progress. While I have a great deal of respect for Sean, and the accomplishments NABS has made under his leadership, we have differing ideas in some respects and differing leadership styles. I believe the strengths I bring to the table are what NABS needs most in the coming two year term. 6. Can you describe a personal experience that you have had that drives you to want to work on behalf of blind students? I grew up as a blind student, one of the supposed “amazing ones.” I was made to feel like I was extraordinary for accomplishing everyday tasks and achieving the same things my peers were achieving. Consequently, I entered college completely unprepared for what the real world had in store for me. I floundered for three semesters, afraid to ask for directions or help learning the alternative techniques of blindness, before finally hitting rock bottom and failing out of school in my fourth semester at the University of Nebraska Lincoln. Since then I have gotten training in blindness skills, gone back to school, and regained a great deal of the confidence I lost. I am passionate about helping other blind students avoid making my mistakes, and helping them realize that they don’t need to be perfect to be leaders. My experiences also taught me the importance of positive blind role models, without whom I may never have realized there were better ways to navigate life. 7. What challenges will you face as president in this ever-growing digital technological world? For the most part technology has been a blessing to geographically diverse organizations such as NABS, but it comes with a downside. It is often more difficult to form a close personal relationship with people who are merely represented to us by a synthesized voice, or dots on a display. The biggest challenge I will face as president, in the area of technology, is effectively leveraging the myriad tools we have at our disposal, and still fostering the one on one interaction that builds healthy relationships among peers. 8. Over the past year or so, the quality of the dialog on the email list has dwindled considerably. It seems like it has been taken over by petty personal arguments, off topic posts, and came to a screeching halt when every message had to be filtered through the list owner this past fall. If elected, what specifically are you willing to do to improve the quality of the email list? Do you believe it is a good idea to appoint a list moderator to watch the list for inappropriate behavior, and if so, are you willing to appoint such a person if elected to the board? My answer to this question directly ties into the negative aspect of technology I touched on in the previous issue. People will often say things on an e-mail list, where they feel some degree of anonymity because no one is actually in front of them when they write their words and hit send, that they would not say were the discussion happening in a coffee shop or local pub. I believe it is first and foremost every list member’s responsibility to remember that we are civilized human beings and the object of the listserv is to encourage, support, uplift, and mentor each other. It is also everyone’s responsibility to remember the saying that has been around since the early days of the Internet, “don’t feed the trolls,” that is to say do not engage in an argument for the sake of an argument. It may possibly be time to examine whether the listserv meets all of the goals it was originally created for. While discussion is healthy and important, it may be time to investigate ways to use the list for more structured discussion. Whether this would involve moderating all, or some, list traffic, or examining other ways to communicate with members I do not know, but I will make it a point as president to appoint a committee to look into how we can best use the list and other resources. All that said, if necessary I would absolutely be willing to appoint a list moderator to help keep things on topic, and within the rules of civility. The NABS list should be a safe place for students to discuss issues, not a place where people have to fear retribution for asking a question long-time subscribers may have seen 20 times before. 9. Based upon my own observations as well as experience, it seems to me that the NFB is a rather elitist organization where few members are truly accepted into the organization and are able to hold leadership positions within the organization. If elected to the board, what specifically are you willing to do to reach out to members who feel as though they are not accepted by this organization and feel as though their contributions do not matter because they are not a part of the leadership clique? This is a challenging question to answer. Firstly, I don’t feel that the organization tries to have a cliquish attitude or exclude anyone from being involved who wants to be. One of the greatest challenges any leader faces is how to most effectively utilize everyone who says they want to help. That being said, the first thing required of an individual who wants to get involved is to make themselves known. I encourage any member of this organization who has an idea (whether it be for a project, or something smaller) to speak up and bring it to the attention of a board member. That isn’t to say board members are more important, but they are your representatives in the overall running of the organization. Getting involved doesn’t always have to mean that you sit on the board. There are frequently opportunities to help (NABS Monte Carlo Night, meeting registrations, soliciting door prizes, just to name a few opportunities made available to you as members); pick something that interests you and run with it. If you can’t find something, talk to your leaders. If there is a way your idea can be used, it will be. If we feel it needs refinement, we’ll collaborate with you to come up with a workable plan. I don’t believe anyone who has a serious idea will ever be turned away simply because you’re not in the right clique. 10. Many people have different definitions of what it means to serve on the board as well as the reasons why they choose to serve. How do you define the board position you are seeking, and what are the reasons why you are seeking this position? If you are not elected to this position, would you be willing to serve in another position on the board while supporting the person who was elected to this position? I believe the goal of the president is to steer the organization and to provide leadership, direction and encouragement to its members. Of course if I am not elected I am willing to serve in another position; my ultimate intent is to further the goals of the organization, not to wear the banner of a specific title. However, I believe I have the best personality and qualities to lead NABS and continue to grow the organization. 11. How do you assess the progress made in strengthening bonds between state student divisions and the NABS board in the past year? What will you do to continue strengthening the bonds between state student divisions and the NABS board? We have begun to make progress strengthening the bonds between state student divisions and the national organization, however there is still much work to be done. If elected president I will continue the system of appointing regional representatives from the NABS board to advise leaders of state student divisions. I will also personally reach out to student leaders working to build the individual relationships that make NABS a strong and cohesive group. 12. How do you compare the group dynamics of localized organizations, such as local chapters, state student divisions, or campus organizations, versus nationally-based ones like NABS? I think it is often easier to get involved in local organizations. However, a national organization such as NABS offers students an opportunity to make change on a larger scale. If approached correctly, it can also be a way for less outgoing students to begin contributing without feeling like they are being singled out and judged. 13. With what other activities (both in and out of the federation) are you involved, and do you feel you have adequate time to devote to the office? I am president of the Nebraska Association of Blind students and have the privilege of sitting on my local chapter and state affiliate boards. I also occasionally sing with local bands. During the summers I work with programs designed to teach blind youth the importance of alternative techniques of blindness. I believe I can dedicate sufficient time to the office of NABS president to justify your faith in electing me. I have solid organization and communication skills that will enable me to manage my time and keep focused on all areas of the activities I am involved with. 14. What do you see as Nabs purpose and mission? The purpose of NABS is to empower and encourage blind students. The best way we can do this is to bring students into the National Federation of the Blind and expose them to positive blind role models. 15. How do you propose further strengthening ties with the national organization and increasing membership numbers? I believe I have addressed this issue in previous questions, but to recap I will work with the National center for the Blind to bring a NABS voice into the planning of student oriented activities and advocacy efforts. I will reach out to our senior leaders to make sure that they understand the issues important to NABS members. I will ensure that I understand the issues that are important to you as students, and how we can use the resources of the National Center to find solutions. 16. How do you plan to reach out to student groups besides those currently in college? (IE. High school, non traditional, Etc.) I will seek out opportunities for NABS to be included at events hosted by unaffiliated organizations. I will also find opportunities to disseminate our information through groups that serve our blind students, that may not know about NABS and how we can be of benefit to them. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: candidates forum questions.doc Type: application/msword Size: 48128 bytes Desc: not available URL: From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 23:57:50 2012 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 19:57:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] the nabs meeting at convention this year Message-ID: <9407989491A643ABAEB9DAA4752F2206@AudioAccessFM> Hi There! I know that there is someone on here, Peter I think his name is, who does some recording of convention events. Peter if you're on this list or if anyone on here knows someone who can record the nabs business meeting, get in touch with me via twitter at djdrocks or email at\ daviddunphy at audioaccessfm.com This way, I can put the nabs meeting up on the site, give the person who recorded it a thank you of course, but this way, even though I personally couldn't be there to record it due to a last minute situation that prevented me from coming, I can still provide the audio content for the nabslink audio portion of the nabs page. Thanks much. >From David From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 16:19:53 2012 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 09:19:53 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself In-Reply-To: References: <2E1903FB26AA4AEC8346BD9E951B36BF@BrandonsLaptop2><3F223D0CF9D844DCB681C39AC63C4660@BrandonsLaptop2> Message-ID: <5802B71B42B947F8816D571F0BD84CB8@BrandonsLaptop2> Hello Rylie, My mom got into VI work because I'm blind and she showed a little interest in doing VI work, so my TVI at the time asked my mom to be her assistant so my mom agreed, then my TVI became too sick to continue, so my mom had to take over totally. She then got trained over like 2 summers while working in-between and was up and at them with a 45 student load throughout a 150 mile radius. She'd go to one town, teach the student, spend the night at a hotel, teach more students the next day then come back home. When we moved to CA she was put in a district about an hour from where we were, so for four years she had to drive one hour there and one hour back which brought her work days to about 14 hours. She was soon put in charge of the VI program down in her district and now she's going more into evaluation work and administration work. She also has to do a lot of testifying in court. Her biggest job is coming up with compromises between people, keeping the student's needs top priority while the school district and the parents need things to please them as well. She has a huge advantage because if she has a question about something she can call me and I don't just say "Pack mate" or "Braille", me being a person active in the technology world, I can say Braille+ or System Access. She has also hired me to teach Jaws and basic laptop navigation to some students and if she can't find a textbook she usually asks me to convert it from Kindle or see if I can find it on Learning Allie or NLS. I believe that being a TVI is basically a job of delegation, you find what your aids work best at and get them working on that all the time. My mom has to also deal with not so functional Aids sometimes and she has to find jobs for them that will fit in their abilities while still being the most help in taking my mom's workload off. Being a TVI should be a job where someone does an internship before taking over the trade, but unfortunately in most cases the demand is just too high and there is advanced work for the uninitiated. I really recommend seeing if one can find an organization like the Vista Center in Palo Alto to work at, not only because the support and resources in those places is most likely phenomenal, but one will be able to get advice from colleagues any time and those colleagues work with the same people, so you don't need to worry as much about the breach of confidence issue Being a TVI is not just Braille and O&M, but so much more. A complete understanding of all facets of Braille and O&M is essential, but so is Living skills, social skills, administration skills, technology skills, compromise skills, organization skills, upchuck skills, computer hacking skills... (well maybe not the last two, but you get the picture)! Being a TVI requires someone to have the mental capacity to do everything the best and if they can't do something recognize that's a weakness and be responsible for finding someone who can help. If someone is not available, then the TVI needs to learn the skill or piece of technology from a manual well enough to teach it. In my case my mom realized I learned technology exponentially faster than she possibly could, so she just asks me how the progress is coming and wants to know the issues I'm having. She has a couple students like that, but there are students who need the 2 hours a week of Jaws training. Another facet of being a TVI is also teaching in a way that is fascinating and in gaging for the student. This is more of the issue of being a teacher in general, but a teacher can't just lecture and give homework. That is proven to be the least effective way possible to teach. I know I resisted Braille so hard because I hated that style of learning I never really began to like reading Braille until 9th grade. It was because I had one of the amazing TVIs read Braille and showed me how pitiful my skills were. So she would read one page, then I'd read one page and I'd try to read as smooth as she did. Unfortunately she was the teacher who became too sick to continue, so it took another 2 years before I found a book that I loved and that helped me develop my skills on my own. When I was going through High school though I asked for Braille music to be put on my IEP and the TVI that I had broke the law and never taught me Braille Music. Same thing pretty much happened in CA, the Braille teacher didn't know music or Nemith, so we fired her after the first year and I'm learning everything on my own now. But most kids and parents don't have the knowledge to fire their Braille teacher and learn everything on their own, let alone the self discipline to slowly go through every single exercise and grade their performance without a teacher. So in many cases the student will not have the skills they need in order to succeed... I sure didn't when I graduated high school... Now one can see why I admire TVIs so much and why they are so important. I really hope more people feel up to the task of being one of these superhuman so we aren't kept left in the dust! BTW this year my mom received teacher of the year in northern CA as well as a plack of honor from her school district. So I'm super proud and hope as many people as possible can learn under my mom before she burns out and retires... Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Rylie Robinson Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself Wow Thank you! It's really good to know firsthand (well actually secondhand,) what a TVI has to go through on a rather day-to-day basis. 65 students sounds like an incredible amount, but I can completely understand where she's coming from when it comes to how rewarding that job must be. It's also reassuring to know that the job is really in demand. Well, reassuring to me, but not to the thousands of students who aren't getting the services they need. There may be a shortage, but the problem stems from the fact that states don't want to spend the money to hire what they consider as extra service. Even though Braille, assistive tech, and mobility are some of the most important alternative techniques blind students must learn, school districts expect students to learn it within insufficient time amounts (one hour a week for Braille isn't going to come to much.) I honestly had no idea about a lot of these issues until I attended the Louisiana Center for the Blind after graduating high school. I actually had my life all planned out, but going there and exposing myself to the issues of Braille illiteracy changed everything around. You're absolutely right when you say that most teachers really don't know much when it comes to Braille. In a lot of cases, teachers only have to take the minimum requirement of Braille education for themselves and then they're certified to teach it to other students. No wonder these students aren't learning it; if teachers aren't comfortable teaching it, they'll simply find other ways to teach reading and writing that doesn't involve Braille. I commend the NFB on their Braille literacy campaigns, and the fact that they are really trying to up the standards for teachers being able to acquire certification. It's so important to know your subject before teaching it. I think it's really interesting that your mom talked a lot about teaching middle and high school students social skills. I've always said that if I were to go in to this field, a main part of my job would be teaching, but there would be a whole other side to it. I thought a lot about the advocacy aspect and helping to show sighted parents and educators that blind students have potential, but it's just as important to lead by example when dealing with the students themselves. If I am to work with middle and high school students, it will be my obligation, as a blind teacher, to be a positive role model, and that the blind truly can be successful. That will definitely be a challenge, and one that I'll be willing to meet when it comes. Just out of curiosity, how did your mom get involved in TVI work? Is she sighted or does she also have a visual impairment? Blessings, Rylie P.S. I saw on another post that you are also a scholarship winner. Congradulations, and I sincerely look forward to meeting you as a fellow member of the 2012 scholarship class in Dallas. On 6/29/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > Yes, I'm a music student studying Opera/voice at CSU East Bay. > > Brandon Keith Biggs > -----Original Message----- > From: josh gregory > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself > > Awesome post! I assume you're a student yourself? > > On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >> Oh, that is cool! >> My mom is a TVI and she contracts out of Vista Center here in CA. I >> really >> think those kinds of organizations are the way to go for the school >> districts, because in my experience, Vista's workers have been eons >> higher >> quality than most of the TVIs I've had who were directly from the school. >> My mom runs the TVI program in a county with like 65 students or some >> huge >> number like that and in every place she's worked she's been given inhuman >> amounts of students. She's a full TVI who was trained at Steven F Austin >> University and she has never needed to look for TVI work. The supervisor >> from Vista flew from CA to Washington state just to have lunch with my >> mom >> and offer her the job. It's super awesome that you're planning on going >> into >> >> TVI work! It's probably one of the hardest jobs out there, just because >> of >> the work load, but it's super fulfilling when you realize how many people >> you've taught technology to, how many books your students have read, how >> much your students have learned thanks to your problem solving with the >> teachers and students as well as how many dreams your students have been >> able to follow because of the confidence and inspiration you've given >> them. >> >> (I wonder what it's like being the TVI of that girl who read 21 thousand >> pages? My word!) >> It might be a good idea to consider getting your masters in education as >> well. In today's age I believe teachers are best able to cope with the >> riggers of teaching with that masters. I'm not sure why, but all the >> totally >> >> best teachers I've had either had a masters, or had been teaching some >> 30+ >> years the same subject. >> My mom's favorite students are the little kids, 5 month to 9 year olds. >> They >> >> are the students who require the most intense attention because if they >> are >> >> stunted by their parents and deprived of their childhood, not aloud to >> fall >> >> off the monkey bars a couple hundred times, they will be considered >> developmentally delayed and their real world experience for how ever many >> years will have been taken away from them. It's been my observation that >> the >> >> middle school and high school students are more difficult relationship >> wise >> >> because often at that point the educational system has ground them into >> submission, so many times it's very difficult to get the student to >> learn. >> The secondary school students also have lots of social questions and >> problems, wanting a date for the prom, making friends, being scared of >> being >> >> on the dance teem... So lots of what my mom has to do is teach social >> skills >> >> to their students. (What does it look like to be in love? and other >> oddities) >> >> TVI is probably the most involved and problem solving job and I believe >> it's >> >> the most in demand. If one is just a Braille Teacher or VI instructor, >> they >> >> have to be darn good at what they do. For example I only had one Braille >> teacher who actually knew Braille music, Nemith, Grade 3 and all those >> other >> >> languages and were possibly able to teach them. And I had one VI >> instructor >> >> who actually knew how to problem solve and was super involved with the >> public transportation and knew all the city boards. It's crucial for a VI >> specialist to be up to date on what's going on with all 6 kinds of public >> transportation in each town and for them to actively be making sure >> cities >> remain accessible. When a student has a teacher who loves their subject, >> it's the difference from being OK to being exceptional. There can't be an >> exceptional teacher who doesn't find a modicum of pleasure in what they >> do. >> >> I think teaching is the hardest job and in my experience for every good >> teacher, there are at least 3 bad ones. If it was that our intelligences >> didn't mesh or what ever, I've been in classes where the teacher just >> couldn't communicate with me and in TVI classes, I've known more Braille >> than my Braille teacher in a few cases :(. >> I a plod, commend and admire you for wanting to be a TVI and I hope you >> come >> >> to CA and decrease the shortage a little! LOL >> Sorry for the long email... >> Thanks, >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rylie Robinson >> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:06 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] introducing Myself >> >> hello Brandon, >> >> Secondary English Education just means middle school/high school >> english (Secondary School as opposed to Primary School.) I was going >> to simply major in English, but if I am to teach blind students >> (braille specifically,) I figured getting some of the education out of >> the way would work out better in the long-run. Braille is what I would >> like to specialize in, but any TVI work could potentially be what I'm >> looking for. What I teach isn't what I'm particular about, but where. >> I would really like to work in a public school setting; I believe this >> is where a lot of the advocacy work would have to be done, and it's >> one of the best places to lay a foundation of high expectations, both >> the the blind students and to their sighted parents and educators. >> >> It's wonderful to see other blind musicians; I'll definitely have to >> check out those other mailing lists. >> >> Thanks a lot for the welcome, and i look forward to getting to know you >> better. >> >> Blessings, >> Rylie >> >> On 6/28/12, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: >>> Hello Rilie! >>> Wow, we need good TVIs! Are you wanting to specialize in one area, or >>> just >>> be a full TVI? >>> Does secondary English education talk about people learning things in >>> their >>> >>> second language? Like if I'm Italian or German going to school in China? >>> Or >>> >>> is it something totally different? I've never heard of that major >>> before... >>> Thanks and so nice to hear from another person! And especially one going >>> to >>> >>> Dallas! >>> >>> Brandon Keith Biggs >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rylie Robinson >>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 2:31 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] introducing Myself >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I don't really know how these introduction processes work on lists, >>> but I just wanted to drop in and say hello to everyone. I've been on >>> the list for a long time, but I finally changed my EMail over to a >>> client that I actually enjoy using. So, hopefully, more posting from >>> me will follow. >>> >>> My name is Rylie, a 20-year-old college student attending Indiana >>> university Purdue University Indianapolis. Right now I'm studying >>> Secondary English education. I hope after I acquire this degree to >>> earn a certification in teacher of blind students and teach Braille in >>> a public school setting. >>> >>> I have been involved in the nFB for a while, and I know, or know of >>> quite a few of the Nabs members, and this seemed like one of the best >>> ways to stay involved, especially with convention coming right around >>> the corner. I hope to get to know some of you more and to be able to >>> see some of you in Dallas. >>> >>> Blessings to all, >>> Rylie >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjehlessa%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Ways to Connect with me: > > facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo > > twitter.com/joshg93 > Skype: joshgregory93 > FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjehlessa%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com