[nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott

Sun Jun 10 20:14:59 UTC 2012

Arielle,

Excellent points. Too many people are stuck at jobs where their talents are 
not used
just because they're disabled. I believe this is because they take any job 
they can get so they are not sitting at home.
Yes, yes people also act acording to how people expect them to act.
I have also seen first hand that
entry level jobs are not accessible to the blind applicant. You are right 
that employers, particularly in a tight economy, want to hire employees with 
relevant experience. Those entry level jobs needed to gain experience are 
not accessible as they require manyy paper tasks still such as filing, 
copying, organizing the papers, sorting mail, distributing the mail. And 
know what? Many phones now you need to see! They have lights to show you 
what line the call comes on. I can see the lights. But I cannot see the 
small screen. So if I needed the screen displaying the incoming call, I'd be 
out of luck.

Unfortunately, people stuck in jobs they hate or a job they are not using 
their skills is far too common and won't ever go away. We live in a 
capatalistic society where you have to sell your skills, and for many 
reasons not everyone is going to effectively sell their skills to a employer 
willing to hire unexperienced, untrained applicants. Then you add they got a 
visible disability like blindness, and it gets even harder to sell yourself.

As to the boycott, I still have unanswered questions. What is the point? Why 
pick on goodwill? They do a lot of good as far as I see.

Ashley
-----Original Message----- 
From: Arielle Silverman
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:27 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott

Hi Brandon,
These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people
who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have
met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description.
The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a
person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests
like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for
environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or
knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or
what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that
when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they
tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling
prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian
effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are
smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently
without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up
performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often
happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how
disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways
that make those assumptions come true.
I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more
productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically
interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually
good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental
abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task
enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too
boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have
their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have
figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I
would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum
wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or
using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just
wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and
doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills
instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at.
Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true
that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the
unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for
unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers
want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields,
the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience
isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with
programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in
the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example,
before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which
means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible
materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without
experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory
doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an
accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't
accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very
accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts
that aren't accessible, this will limit job options.
Arielle

On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally
> disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We
> also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally 
> disabled
> people really are mentally  disabled.
> *That's a mouthful!*
> I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed 
> and
> jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm
> not a professional and I can only say from personal experience  that many
> mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's
> because they are babied and misunderstood  that they are pressured into
> doing jobs they aren’t good at.
>
> I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the 
> first
> place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty
> easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If
> your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a
> class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is 
> for
> college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when 
> work
> isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I 
> go
> into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral  issues, I'm not
> sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hi all,
> I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items
> like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer
> boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt
> them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very
> persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we
> make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy.
> Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her
> S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with
> Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C).
> Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S
> and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C
> is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities
> similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told
> me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial
> job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I
> don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived
> rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The
> program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had
> independent access to the money she earned at her job.
> I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like
> C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their
> own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how
> independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C.
> would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and
> higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom.
> I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be
> paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness
> by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I
> do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living
> expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are
> living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in
> these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost
> sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care
> because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or
> others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the
> intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should
> never be said about people who are just blind without other
> disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases
> this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if
> someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be
> paid adult wages? It's tricky.
> I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment
> programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many
> workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled
> workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others
> will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in
> noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the
> competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force
> companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale
> more fairly.
> Arielle
>
> On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a
>> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we
>> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do, 
>> we
>> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with
>> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of
>> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I
>> know,
>> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far.
>>
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Humberto Avila
>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM
>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>
>> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to 
>> this
>> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put 
>> pressure
>> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as
>> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up
>> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they
>> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people
>> are
>> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers
>> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up,
>> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire
>> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my 
>> personal
>> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist
>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>
>> Justin,
>>
>> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted
>> universally,
>> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair
>> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave
>> their
>> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead.
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Justin Salisbury <PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu
>> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012
>> 23:19:15 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>
>> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within 
>> Goodwill
>> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the
>> fact
>> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal 
>> fair
>> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too.
>>
>> Justin M. Salisbury
>> Class of 2012
>> B.A. in Mathematics
>> East Carolina University
>> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>>
>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.?
>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Justin Salisbury
>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Goodwill Boycott
>>
>> Arielle, Gabe, and all:
>>
>> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies
>> and
>> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to
>> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries
>> would create a centralized
>> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages?
>>
>> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to
>> adopt
>> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach
>> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in
>> individual locations.  I do understand the point of leading local 
>> business
>> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers
>> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals
>> or
>>
>> achievement of fair wages?   That's not a rhetorical question; I
>> want to hear opinions on it.
>>
>> Justin
>>
>> Justin M. Salisbury
>> Class of 2012
>> B.A. in Mathematics
>> East Carolina University
>> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>>
>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.?
>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD
>>
>>
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>
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