[nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott

Sun Jun 10 20:44:12 UTC 2012

Ashley!
You'd make a good president for the NFB!
Have you thought of calling Dr Maurer about this?
It needs to happen, sooner, rather than later!
Thanks, Joshua

On 6/10/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Brandon,
> I hope you're being sarcastic. Okay, I don't think we have so much advantage
> as you say we do.
> I do agree  that we have to "walk with the crowd" and yes we need to
> assimulate into our culture.
>
>
> But I think you oversimplify why people do not get
> entry level jobs.
> I could write a book on this, but I believe
> you will see for yourself when you try and find entry level work.
>
> You said,
> "Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not
> learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted
> community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs."
>
> Wait a minute! Haven't you seen barriers in school? Inaccessible handouts,
> textbooks, inaccessible websites? What about group work when your peers
> don't read you the worksheets?  Come on. Its not easy in class. And what if
> your professor doesn't read you the stuff on the board, even  though you had
> a meeting with him about your accomodations! Well, Brandon, the same
> barriers in college exist at work, even magnified. You have to read mail and
> see numerous screens. You can label it, but some of it cannot be accessible
> if you cannot read the ever changing screen.
> Fax machines, printers, even phones now have screens! you have
> visual tasks on computers such as document layout, creating flyers, using
> inaccessible software like microsoft publisher. Know what?
> I've seen many job ads with microsoft publisher listed as a qualification.
> Not to mention, Microsoft is producing products that are less and less
> accessible. And NFB does nothing about it! Access isn't accessible either.
> Tasks in entry level jobs include filing, copying, collating, sorting mail,
> distributing mail, cleaning out files and shredding the old documents etc
> etc. A blind person couldn't do these tasks. Maybe the copying, if the
> copier were labeled.
>
> So it’s a complex issue. We're not going to get rid of workshops or menial
> jobs. So, we might as well improve wages and conditions for workers who do
> those jobs.
>
> Ashley
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 2:57 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hello,
> I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm going to
> say...
> It's the educational system that many of these problems come down to. We
> have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to create a new
> style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about disabled
> students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask for
> accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad!
> Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted person, I would
> not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United States when
> going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get leniency on
> all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get free
> schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so many
> scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for
> accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends with your
> teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you are by
> nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to read your
> books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined, you're able
> to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for taking
> advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled and that's
> what you're expected to do!
> Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when you get 100%
> on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people think it's
> amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing, (Stereotypically)
> blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time to do school
> work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and instructions
> because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem with your
> online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the web browser,
> state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors class at a
> community college and you have good grades and you've written one of those
> inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get the super
> arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!", you're able
> to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies like Global
> explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job programs
> like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community college or
> state college you're given a guide through the school because you need a
> mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person...
> I should probably stop, but you get the idea...
> It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years of my life
> and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing parents and
> didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view of school,
> but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was just that
> either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped with the
> skills or technology that was keeping me from learning.
> There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's multiple  theory
> of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school, but thank
> goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone, they just
> need to know how they learn and learn that way!
> I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so I'll get off
> education.
> My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the above things.
> I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings and my mom
> became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind person needs to
> know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years of your
> life there getting your music degree or dentist degree.
>
> Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a tighter mold of
> what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of anyone.
> Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they don't need
> special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme cases of
> autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is put into
> that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane! It's like if
> Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people stuck him
> into special ed just because he can't talk!
> Where would cosmology be?
> Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their own way into
> sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled that are
> fighting for these rights.
>
> I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird it's not them
> that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're weird. It's
> like you thinking the person in front of you is going through time the same
> way you are!
>
> Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason and go for
> emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and that's why
> we have to assimilate into the sighted world.
> Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have probably not
> learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the sighted
> community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level jobs.
>
> Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything other than
> blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this world likes to
> think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with the crowd.
> Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered weird, those who
> learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise above it are
> considered great.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hi Brandon,
> These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people
> who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have
> met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description.
> The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a
> person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests
> like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for
> environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or
> knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or
> what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that
> when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they
> tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling
> prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian
> effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are
> smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently
> without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up
> performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often
> happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how
> disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways
> that make those assumptions come true.
> I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more
> productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically
> interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually
> good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental
> abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task
> enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too
> boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have
> their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have
> figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I
> would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum
> wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or
> using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just
> wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and
> doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills
> instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at.
> Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true
> that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the
> unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for
> unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers
> want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields,
> the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience
> isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with
> programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in
> the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example,
> before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which
> means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible
> materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without
> experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory
> doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an
> accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't
> accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very
> accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts
> that aren't accessible, this will limit job options.
> Arielle
>
> On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally
>> disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We
>> also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally
>> disabled
>> people really are mentally  disabled.
>> *That's a mouthful!*
>> I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed
>> and
>> jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm
>> not a professional and I can only say from personal experience  that many
>> mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's
>> because they are babied and misunderstood  that they are pressured into
>> doing jobs they aren’t good at.
>>
>> I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the
>> first
>> place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty
>> easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If
>> your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a
>> class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is
>> for
>> college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when
>> work
>> isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I
>> go
>> into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral  issues, I'm not
>> sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Arielle Silverman
>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items
>> like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer
>> boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt
>> them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very
>> persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we
>> make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy.
>> Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her
>> S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with
>> Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C).
>> Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S
>> and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C
>> is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities
>> similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told
>> me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial
>> job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I
>> don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived
>> rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The
>> program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had
>> independent access to the money she earned at her job.
>> I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like
>> C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their
>> own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how
>> independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C.
>> would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and
>> higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom.
>> I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be
>> paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness
>> by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I
>> do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living
>> expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are
>> living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in
>> these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost
>> sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care
>> because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or
>> others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the
>> intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should
>> never be said about people who are just blind without other
>> disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases
>> this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if
>> someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be
>> paid adult wages? It's tricky.
>> I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment
>> programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many
>> workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled
>> workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others
>> will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in
>> noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the
>> competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force
>> companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale
>> more fairly.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a
>>> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we
>>> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do,
>>> we
>>> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with
>>> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of
>>> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I
>>> know,
>>> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Humberto Avila
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>>
>>> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to
>>> this
>>> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put
>>> pressure
>>> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as
>>> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up
>>> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they
>>> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people
>>> are
>>> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers
>>> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up,
>>> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire
>>> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my
>>> personal
>>> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>>
>>> Justin,
>>>
>>> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted
>>> universally,
>>> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair
>>> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave
>>> their
>>> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead.
>>>
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Justin Salisbury <PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu
>>> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012
>>> 23:19:15 +0000
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>>
>>> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within
>>> Goodwill
>>> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the
>>> fact
>>> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal
>>> fair
>>> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too.
>>>
>>> Justin M. Salisbury
>>> Class of 2012
>>> B.A. in Mathematics
>>> East Carolina University
>>> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>>>
>>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
>>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.?
>>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Justin Salisbury
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Goodwill Boycott
>>>
>>> Arielle, Gabe, and all:
>>>
>>> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies
>>> and
>>> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to
>>> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries
>>> would create a centralized
>>> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages?
>>>
>>> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to
>>> adopt
>>> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach
>>> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in
>>> individual locations.  I do understand the point of leading local
>>> business
>>> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers
>>> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals
>>> or
>>>
>>> achievement of fair wages?   That's not a rhetorical question; I
>>> want to hear opinions on it.
>>>
>>> Justin
>>>
>>> Justin M. Salisbury
>>> Class of 2012
>>> B.A. in Mathematics
>>> East Carolina University
>>> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>>>
>>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
>>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.?
>>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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