[nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.

[Joshua Lester]

Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point.
I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!"
Sight, and vision are two different things.
Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes.
Vision, is mental/spiritual.
The NFB has lots of vision!
If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility.
We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired.
Blessings, Joshua

On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse?
> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're
> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should
> you tell them you're blind?
> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually
> impaired, but I think that's against the law.
> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell yourself
> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually
> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad vision,
>
> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually
> impaired, and it's not TOB).
> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too
> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see.
> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the
> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be
> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible products
>
> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs.
> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made
> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is an
>
> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring
> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a
> disability.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wasif, Zunaira
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles
> such as this one.  I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know
> that it helped African Americans enter the work place.   Maybe the only
> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through
> reverse discrimination.  The legislation is there in the form of the ADA
> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented.  I work with clients every day
> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a
> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text.  The fact that
> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory!
> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level
> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is
> reverse discrimination.  The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but
> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or
> through any program.  They should be able to apply off of the street
> like anyone else.  A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification
> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even
> interview them.  I'm working in this field and I see that happen every
> day.  If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service
> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the
> Lighthouse?"  The reason that companies do this is because they want
> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse
> that the blind person has the skills for the job.  My question is, how
> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills?
> They want an incentive to hire disabled people.  The attitude is "oh,
> yeh?  You want me to hire a blind person?  You better give me a tax
> break."  In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh?  You better pay me to
> hire that blind person."  This is the current situation.  Our government
> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive
> off of this.  In job development exercises we are taught to market the
> corporate tax credit, not the client.  How is this any better than the
> quota system?  I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe
> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of
> proving that "we are worth something."    If there is a better option I
> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make
> change.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sophie Trist
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the
> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be
> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected
> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue
> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're
> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota.
> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" <Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people?
> This
> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle
> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Ashley,
>   You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're
> probably right.  But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes
> sense to me.  If you have some branches paying any employees below the
> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight.
> Unfortunate, but true.  I really think it is that simple...this is one
> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble
> opinion.
>   Take it or leave it,
> Kirt
>
> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Elizabeth,
> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are
>
> paid
>
> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they
> pay. I
>
> don't think there is a set corporate policy.
>
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elizabeth
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you
> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am
>
> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when
> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but
>
> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the
> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a  considerable
> amount more than what most people are making to achieve  such an
> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily  questioning the
> information you cited from the article, but rather  questioning the
> information that was cited in the article itself.
> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me.
> I am
> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it.
>
> Warm regards,
> Elizabeth
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Greg Aikens" <gpaikens at gmail.com
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Hi Elizabeth,
> I should have included my sources.  The first was the article  recently
> posted to the list by Anil Lewis:
>
> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl
> ed-E
> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of
> employees impacted and their average wage.  The reason that an  average
> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because  many states
> have minimum wage laws that are higher
>
> than the federal minimum wage.  For  a quick list of minimum wage by
> state, go to:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages
>
> Please check my facts in case I misread.
>
> -Greg
>
> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote:
>
> Hi Gregg,
>
> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If  these
> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then  how
> exactly
>
> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the
> calculated
>
> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high
> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect
> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the  factory
> worker or the
>
> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above  the
> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your  numbers, but
> if
>
> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue
>
> of paying people subminimum wage.
>
> Warm regards,
> Elizabeth
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Greg Aikens" <gpaikens at gmail.com
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually
> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to  actually
>
> make these changes.  According to the article Anil Lewis posted,  7300
> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled  workers less
> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is  $7.47, which is
> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of  $7.25.  I can't say
> what the average minimum wage for these workers
>
> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it
>
> could be higher than $8.50.  So they would have to on average pay
> workers with disabilities
> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year.  Multiply that
>
> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000.
>
> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy  is
> so
>
> high.
>
> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I  would
> post in case others are interested too.
>
> -Greg
> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote:
>
> Good afternoon,
>
> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media
> attention
>
> for
> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts  are
> complementary rather than mutually exclusive.
>
> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the,  largest
> and
>
> most
> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay
> workers
>
> with
> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the
>
> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be  scrutinized
> by people in and out of your field. That's just the  way it goes.
>
> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business  with
> the federal government, providing goods and services through
> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are
> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value.
> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well,  but
> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize  nonprofits
> to create employment opportunities
>
> for
> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect,
> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the
>
> management of
>
> these
> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of  disabled
> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce  output
> justifying the minimum wage in the market?
>
> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who  are
> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than
>
> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level  of
> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to  subsidize the
> wage to give them
>
> the
> dignity of equal treatment under the law.
>
> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per
>
> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same  boat.
> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and  fails to
> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum  wage apply, but
> organizations wishing to receive preferential  treatment in government
> contracting should have to
>
> fill
> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with
> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it  stands
>
> now,
> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops.
>
> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for
>
> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities  rights
> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying  that it is
> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of  America, have a
> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and
>
> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are
> completely correct. The boycott of Good
>
> Will
> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each  of us
>
> to
> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will  it
> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all  their
> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in  cost
> realistically going to
>
> lead
> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim?
> I
>
> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is
> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker
> currently makes $1.50 an
>
> hour.
> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the  employee
> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an
>
> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100  employees
> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer).
> This would represent an annual cost increase
>
> of
> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a
>
> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller
>
> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor
> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law  is
> changed is bogus and cynical.
> As I
> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their
>
> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so
>
> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the
> government pays.
> And, as
> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the
> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than  to
> support the
>
> 70,
> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who  somehow
> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that
>
> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities.
> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me
>
> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply  to
> everybody in the employment market, full stop.
>
> Sean
>
>
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