[nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.

[Joshua Lester]

Right on!
Just think of how many songs would be ruined!
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me."
I once was lost, but now I'm found, twas Blind, but now I see!"
Put visually impaired, in, to replace blind, and you've ruined the hymn!
Just saying!
Good grief!
Blessings, Joshua

On 6/12/12, Karen Anderson <kea.anderson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Brandon and all,
>
> While I understand where you are coming from, I don't feel your argument
> holds up. I am all for assimilating into a sighted world, but I don't think
> calling myself "visually impaired," falls into that category. To me,
> fitting
> into a sighted world involves understanding social cues, and using my
> alternative techniques to the best of my ability to accomplish the same
> activities as my sighted peers. Assimilating into sighted culture means
> knowing not to eat your mashed potatoes with your hands, and not sticking
> your nose in your food while you're trying to see if you've cut a piece of
> meat.
> 	To me, "blind" is just a word, and "blindness" is just one of the
> characteristics that makes me me. Furthermore, the more we shy away from
> using that 5 letter word, the less we will be accepted into society. While
> saying "visually impaired" is sometimes more accepted in today's culture,
> it
> serves little purpose other than to further the hierarchy of sight. I am no
> better or worse off than someone who has some vision, or someone who is
> fully sighted. We are all people, with our own strengths and weaknesses.
> Buying into the argument that "visually impaired" and other such phrases
> are
> more socially acceptable also reinforces the negative stereotype that a
> completely blind person is inherently less capable than someone who has
> some
> remaining vision. As a member of the NFB, I believe in standing up for my
> rights, as well as the rights of other blind people, whether they have some
> vision or not. I feel that if we want society to accept us, we first have
> to
> accept ourselves.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Karen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:59 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Hello Josh,
> We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community
> calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is
> weird unfortunately.
> I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling
> something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who
> you're selling to.
> A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I
> wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to a
>
> strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm
> trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night."
> It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to
> assimilate
>
> into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world.
> I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest mountain
>
> tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy
> up
>
> our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're
> infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off
> onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability
> imaginable.
> I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this
> time.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua Lester
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point.
> I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!"
> Sight, and vision are two different things.
> Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes.
> Vision, is mental/spiritual.
> The NFB has lots of vision!
> If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility.
> We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired.
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse?
>> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're
>> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should
>> you tell them you're blind?
>> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually
>> impaired, but I think that's against the law.
>> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell
>> yourself
>> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually
>> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad
>> vision,
>>
>> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually
>> impaired, and it's not TOB).
>> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too
>> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see.
>> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the
>> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be
>> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible
>> products
>>
>> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs.
>> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made
>> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is
>>
>> an
>>
>> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring
>> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a
>> disability.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Wasif, Zunaira
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>
>> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles
>> such as this one.  I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know
>> that it helped African Americans enter the work place.   Maybe the only
>> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through
>> reverse discrimination.  The legislation is there in the form of the ADA
>> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented.  I work with clients every day
>> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a
>> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text.  The fact that
>> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory!
>> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level
>> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is
>> reverse discrimination.  The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but
>> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or
>> through any program.  They should be able to apply off of the street
>> like anyone else.  A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification
>> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even
>> interview them.  I'm working in this field and I see that happen every
>> day.  If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service
>> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the
>> Lighthouse?"  The reason that companies do this is because they want
>> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse
>> that the blind person has the skills for the job.  My question is, how
>> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills?
>> They want an incentive to hire disabled people.  The attitude is "oh,
>> yeh?  You want me to hire a blind person?  You better give me a tax
>> break."  In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh?  You better pay me to
>> hire that blind person."  This is the current situation.  Our government
>> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive
>> off of this.  In job development exercises we are taught to market the
>> corporate tax credit, not the client.  How is this any better than the
>> quota system?  I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe
>> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of
>> proving that "we are worth something."    If there is a better option I
>> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make
>> change.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>
>> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the
>> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be
>> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected
>> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue
>> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're
>> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota.
>> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" <Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>
>> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people?
>> This
>> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle
>> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring
>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>
>> Ashley,
>>   You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're
>> probably right.  But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes
>> sense to me.  If you have some branches paying any employees below the
>> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight.
>> Unfortunate, but true.  I really think it is that simple...this is one
>> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble
>> opinion.
>>   Take it or leave it,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Elizabeth,
>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are
>>
>> paid
>>
>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they
>> pay. I
>>
>> don't think there is a set corporate policy.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Elizabeth
>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you
>> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am
>>
>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when
>> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but
>>
>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the
>> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a  considerable
>> amount more than what most people are making to achieve  such an
>> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily  questioning the
>> information you cited from the article, but rather  questioning the
>> information that was cited in the article itself.
>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me.
>> I am
>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>> Elizabeth
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Greg Aikens" <gpaikens at gmail.com
>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>
>> Hi Elizabeth,
>> I should have included my sources.  The first was the article  recently
>> posted to the list by Anil Lewis:
>>
>> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl
>> ed-E
>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of
>> employees impacted and their average wage.  The reason that an  average
>> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because  many states
>> have minimum wage laws that are higher
>>
>> than the federal minimum wage.  For  a quick list of minimum wage by
>> state, go to:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages
>>
>> Please check my facts in case I misread.
>>
>> -Greg
>>
>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote:
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If  these
>> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then  how
>> exactly
>>
>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the
>> calculated
>>
>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high
>> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect
>> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the  factory
>> worker or the
>>
>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above  the
>> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your  numbers, but
>> if
>>
>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue
>>
>> of paying people subminimum wage.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>> Elizabeth
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Greg Aikens" <gpaikens at gmail.com
>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>
>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually
>> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to  actually
>>
>> make these changes.  According to the article Anil Lewis posted,  7300
>> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled  workers less
>> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is  $7.47, which is
>> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of  $7.25.  I can't say
>> what the average minimum wage for these workers
>>
>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it
>>
>> could be higher than $8.50.  So they would have to on average pay
>> workers with disabilities
>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year.  Multiply that
>>
>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000.
>>
>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy  is
>> so
>>
>> high.
>>
>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I  would
>> post in case others are interested too.
>>
>> -Greg
>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote:
>>
>> Good afternoon,
>>
>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media
>> attention
>>
>> for
>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts  are
>> complementary rather than mutually exclusive.
>>
>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the,  largest
>> and
>>
>> most
>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay
>> workers
>>
>> with
>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the
>>
>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be  scrutinized
>> by people in and out of your field. That's just the  way it goes.
>>
>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business  with
>> the federal government, providing goods and services through
>> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are
>> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value.
>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well,  but
>> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize  nonprofits
>> to create employment opportunities
>>
>> for
>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect,
>> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the
>>
>> management of
>>
>> these
>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of  disabled
>> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce  output
>> justifying the minimum wage in the market?
>>
>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who  are
>> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than
>>
>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level  of
>> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to  subsidize the
>> wage to give them
>>
>> the
>> dignity of equal treatment under the law.
>>
>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per
>>
>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same  boat.
>> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and  fails to
>> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum  wage apply, but
>> organizations wishing to receive preferential  treatment in government
>> contracting should have to
>>
>> fill
>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with
>> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it  stands
>>
>> now,
>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops.
>>
>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for
>>
>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities  rights
>> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying  that it is
>> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of  America, have a
>> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and
>>
>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are
>> completely correct. The boycott of Good
>>
>> Will
>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each  of us
>>
>> to
>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will  it
>> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all  their
>> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in  cost
>> realistically going to
>>
>> lead
>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim?
>> I
>>
>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is
>> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker
>> currently makes $1.50 an
>>
>> hour.
>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the  employee
>> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an
>>
>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100  employees
>> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer).
>> This would represent an annual cost increase
>>
>> of
>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a
>>
>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller
>>
>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor
>> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law  is
>> changed is bogus and cynical.
>> As I
>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their
>>
>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so
>>
>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the
>> government pays.
>> And, as
>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the
>> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than  to
>> support the
>>
>> 70,
>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who  somehow
>> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that
>>
>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities.
>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me
>>
>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply  to
>> everybody in the employment market, full stop.
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
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