[nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.

Wed Jun 13 17:48:45 UTC 2012

Brandon,
Great points. Most of my life I've been called visually impaired. Many 
organizations serving us say blind and visually impaired. So, yes the public 
is more used to this term. I  usually prefer that term as well because I 
have some usable vision and use alternative techniques when needed.
My vision is impaired is all it means. It does help to assimulate and look 
sighted when you have to sell yourself. I'm not saying to hide low vision or 
legal blindness, just saying that you want to minimize its affects and have 
appropriate body language and if possible eye contact. I notice that when 
talking to many blind people with light perception or shadow vision, its 
like talking to their head.
Often they don't have enough expression either.
Now, I do not mean to offend people with less vision, but do you really 
think an employer is going to hire you if they are talking
to your head and don't see your face?

Often around blind people I use the word blind more. But for the reasons 
Brandon mentioned I say visually impaired more often.
-----Original Message----- 
From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:59 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.

Hello Josh,
We're talking nuance of the English Language here. The sighted community
calls us visually impaired, not sight impaired. Saying "Sight impaired" is
weird unfortunately.
I agree with you on the meanings that can be put into it, but when selling
something, one needs to use the terms that are most familiar to those who
you're selling to.
A little over a hundred years ago the term Jazz meant to have sex. I
wouldn't ask someone if they wanted to go to a jazz club and take them to a
strip bar, or one of the bordellos in Vegas... I don't say to a girl I'm
trying to empress: "You looked splendidly gay last night."
It's just weird... That's what I am talking about when we need to assimilate
into sighted culture when we want to sell ourselves in a sighted world.
I agree we should proclaim our pride in being blind to the highest mountain
tops, but until someone famous makes "being blind cool", we have to candy up
our visual impairment to the sighted community so they don't think we're
infested with some kind of rabid disease that will possibly maybe rub off
onto them. Because in a sighted world, being blind is the worst disability
imaginable.
I'm sad people think like this, but it's just the way things are at this
time.
Thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message----- 
From: Joshua Lester
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:34 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.

Brandon, I agree with you on everything, except this one point.
I don't like the term, "Visually impaired!"
Sight, and vision are two different things.
Sight, is what we lack, because we can't see with our physical eyes.
Vision, is mental/spiritual.
The NFB has lots of vision!
If we didn't, we wouldn't be fighting for accessibility.
We're not visually impaired, we're sight impaired.
Blessings, Joshua

On 6/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow! Asking if someone's from a lighthouse?
> I've not heard of that either... But why are you telling them that you're
> blind in the first place? They don't tell you they're sighted, why should
> you tell them you're blind?
> Perhaps if they ask if you have a disability you may say you're visually
> impaired, but I think that's against the law.
> I've found that using the word "Blind" when you're trying to sell yourself
> in the sighted community often turns people off. When one says "Visually
> impaired" That leaves the person with the image of someone with bad 
> vision,
>
> not someone who's blind. (Note that TVI means: "Teacher of the visually
> impaired, and it's not TOB).
> If I got asked if I was from the lighthouse, I'd just say, no that's too
> elementary for me... Then I ask them what they want to see.
> But I totally agree that Inaccessible products should be Illegal in the
> workplace. The law should be that all products by employers should be
> accessible. But meanwhile, the law should be that: All inaccessible 
> products
>
> used in the workplace be modified to adequately fit the worker's needs.
> Papers must be put on the computer and programs either need to be made
> accessible or replaced with an accessible program. But I believe there is 
> an
>
> obscure law somewhere called the ADA that keeps employers from inquiring
> about a disability or refusing you work based on the fact you have a
> disability.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wasif, Zunaira
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:00 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal hurdles
> such as this one.  I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know
> that it helped African Americans enter the work place.   Maybe the only
> way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is through
> reverse discrimination.  The legislation is there in the form of the ADA
> and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented.  I work with clients every day
> who can't get a job because the employer's computer system is running a
> program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text.  The fact that
> employers are still purchasing this type of software is discriminatory!
> It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple level
> building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of discrimination is
> reverse discrimination.  The NFB is advocating for "more programs," but
> the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or
> through any program.  They should be able to apply off of the street
> like anyone else.  A blind applicant shouldn't require a certification
> from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an employer will even
> interview them.  I'm working in this field and I see that happen every
> day.  If a visually impaired client calls Hilton for a customer service
> job the first question the recruiter asks is, "are you working with the
> Lighthouse?"  The reason that companies do this is because they want
> their corporate tax credit and they want assurance from the Lighthouse
> that the blind person has the skills for the job.  My question is, how
> do they find out if a nonvisually impaired employee has the skills?
> They want an incentive to hire disabled people.  The attitude is "oh,
> yeh?  You want me to hire a blind person?  You better give me a tax
> break."  In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh?  You better pay me to
> hire that blind person."  This is the current situation.  Our government
> pays people to hire disabled workers and companies like Goodwill thrive
> off of this.  In job development exercises we are taught to market the
> corporate tax credit, not the client.  How is this any better than the
> quota system?  I'm not saying the quota system is perfect, but maybe
> it's the best option we have right now. Maybe its an effective way of
> proving that "we are worth something."    If there is a better option I
> would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make
> change.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sophie Trist
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the
> past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be
> ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were rejected
> or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled could argue
> reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire us because we're
> worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain quota.
> Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wasif, Zunaira" <Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people?
> This
> would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to settle
> for subminum wages or no wages, obselete.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Ashley,
>   You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose you're
> probably right.  But there should be, and that's why this boycott makes
> sense to me.  If you have some branches paying any employees below the
> minimum wage, you really do need a national policy to set that straight.
> Unfortunate, but true.  I really think it is that simple...this is one
> of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my humble
> opinion.
>   Take it or leave it,
> Kirt
>
> On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Elizabeth,
> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees are
>
> paid
>
> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what they
> pay. I
>
> don't think there is a set corporate policy.
>
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elizabeth
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you
> make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I am
>
> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when
> someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means, but
>
> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the
> average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a  considerable
> amount more than what most people are making to achieve  such an
> average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily  questioning the
> information you cited from the article, but rather  questioning the
> information that was cited in the article itself.
> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me.
> I am
> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it.
>
> Warm regards,
> Elizabeth
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Greg Aikens" <gpaikens at gmail.com
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Hi Elizabeth,
> I should have included my sources.  The first was the article  recently
> posted to the list by Anil Lewis:
>
> http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl
> ed-E
> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of
> employees impacted and their average wage.  The reason that an  average
> wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because  many states
> have minimum wage laws that are higher
>
> than the federal minimum wage.  For  a quick list of minimum wage by
> state, go to:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages
>
> Please check my facts in case I misread.
>
> -Greg
>
> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote:
>
> Hi Gregg,
>
> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If  these
> employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then  how
> exactly
>
> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the
> calculated
>
> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high
> salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect
> would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the  factory
> worker or the
>
> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above  the
> national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your  numbers, but
> if
>
> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an issue
>
> of paying people subminimum wage.
>
> Warm regards,
> Elizabeth
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Greg Aikens" <gpaikens at gmail.com
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>
> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually
> impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to  actually
>
> make these changes.  According to the article Anil Lewis posted,  7300
> employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled  workers less
> than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is  $7.47, which is
> actually higher than the federal minimum wage of  $7.25.  I can't say
> what the average minimum wage for these workers
>
> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine it
>
> could be higher than $8.50.  So they would have to on average pay
> workers with disabilities
> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year.  Multiply that
>
> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000.
>
> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy  is
> so
>
> high.
>
> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I  would
> post in case others are interested too.
>
> -Greg
> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote:
>
> Good afternoon,
>
> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media
> attention
>
> for
> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts  are
> complementary rather than mutually exclusive.
>
> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the,  largest
> and
>
> most
> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay
> workers
>
> with
> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the
>
> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be  scrutinized
> by people in and out of your field. That's just the  way it goes.
>
> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business  with
> the federal government, providing goods and services through
> non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are
> frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value.
> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well,  but
> the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize  nonprofits
> to create employment opportunities
>
> for
> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect,
> subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the
>
> management of
>
> these
> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of  disabled
> individuals, even those who may not be able to produce  output
> justifying the minimum wage in the market?
>
> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who  are
> incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than
>
> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level  of
> output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to  subsidize the
> wage to give them
>
> the
> dignity of equal treatment under the law.
>
> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per
>
> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same  boat.
> The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and  fails to
> achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum  wage apply, but
> organizations wishing to receive preferential  treatment in government
> contracting should have to
>
> fill
> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with
> disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it  stands
>
> now,
> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops.
>
> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for
>
> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities  rights
> organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying  that it is
> reprehensible that we, today in the United States of  America, have a
> law on the books that codifies the inferiority and
>
> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are
> completely correct. The boycott of Good
>
> Will
> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each  of us
>
> to
> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will  it
> cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all  their
> workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in  cost
> realistically going to
>
> lead
> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim?
> I
>
> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is
> disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker
> currently makes $1.50 an
>
> hour.
> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the  employee
> is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an
>
> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100  employees
> of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer).
> This would represent an annual cost increase
>
> of
> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a
>
> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller
>
> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor
> unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law  is
> changed is bogus and cynical.
> As I
> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their
>
> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so
>
> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the
> government pays.
> And, as
> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the
> dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than  to
> support the
>
> 70,
> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who  somehow
> sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that
>
> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities.
> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me
>
> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply  to
> everybody in the employment market, full stop.
>
> Sean
>
>
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