[nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows andMicrosoft Office
Chris Nusbaum
dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
Fri Jun 15 21:46:27 UTC 2012
Hi Bill,
What you say here about the Gmail standard view is very interesting. I guess
this is one of those rare instances in which the accessibility of a Web site
or a computer program depends on what screen reader you use. I use JAWS, and
the Gmail standard view has shown itself (at least to me) to be very
confusing and unusable, making it seem to me that the standard view is
inaccessible. This is something which has also been found by the NFB Access
Technology Team when they tested Gmail's standard view.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Bill
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:48 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows
andMicrosoft Office
Someone said the standard view of GMail is not accessible at all, I
disagree. I use the standard view with Window-Eyes 7.5 exclusively for
interacting with my several gmail accounts and to manage several other
accounts which are set up to forward and for gmail to send from.
The first thing I do which I find super helpful when setting up a new new
gmail acount is to turn on the keyboard shortcuts under the general tab in
the settings. Though I am a WE user, when I was studying at the CCB, I used
JAWS exclusively and was still able to access my gmail without much trouble.
I admit that it is a bit trickier with the constant changing between the
several different cursors in JAWS but once you get used to it, it is way
more efficient then the basic HTML view. If people are interested in the
techniques I use, feel free to email me offlist and I can try and help.
As for the ribben, if you are used to the classic menu system, then the
ribbins can be quite dawnting. As with most things, if you learn where
things are, there are many shortcuts to help get betwenn the groups, select
a specific option and so on that makes them almost as quick as using the
menu system from office 2003. I think JAWS will eventually have to dump the
virtual ribbins as it will become unmanageable, and they will need to let
their users learn them. For example, Windows 8 will be featuring the ribbin
in windows explorer and several other of its own applications. There is
some challenges with using Windows 8, but they can be overcome with a bit of
practice.
There is a video on GW Micro's website that demonstrates the new OS with
the private beta of WinEyes 8. Though there are a few new methods and
quirks, it isn't actually that bad once you learn the new system.
Bill
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Humberto Avila
<avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, i don't know why some of you guys don't like the JAWS
> virtual ribbon menus. Personally, I love them. They are so much easier
> than the standard, off-the-shelf ribbons without using the JAWS simulated
ribbons.
> You get the upper ribbons, on the upper tabs, like home tab, insert
> tab, ETC in Microsoft word. Then after you press the down arrow on a
> tab, you get traditional submenu styles. Like when I press down arrow
> on the Home tab in Microsoft word 2010, I hear, "clipboard submenu,
> editing submenu, paragraph submenu," ETC. when I hit the right arrow
> or enter on the submenu I want, I hear standard options. Sometimes
> there are buttons, which I can activate by hitting enter, sometimes
> they are checkboxes I can toggle by hitting enter, and also I would
> get combo boxes and edit combo boxes. To activate these edit combos, I
> press Alt+down Arrow and this simulates like the forms mode on and
> off. To close these after selecting an item, press enter. Also, to
> activate a split button, you press the spacebar. You will usually get
> more options organized in a listbox, sometimes they will be more
> menus. There are also dropdown buttons, which you can press the space
> bar to activate more options. Some will say, dropdown grid. When you
> press the spacebar, they are literally like grids. You can press all the
up, down, right and left arrow keys to move and hear options.
>
> I think you should play around with them. It's like those ribbons are
> converted into submenus by JAWS and they aren't ribbons anymore,
> except for the upper tabs.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:32 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows
> andMicrosoft Office
>
> Chris,
> You are right that outlook is accessible and in fact a few features
> now work
>
> that did not in the past. I also agree its easier to navigate than
> gmail. My
>
> school uses gmail so I use it in basic html mode. It has frames and is
> just a difficult layout. At least outlook is a list; you have a list
> of messages and a list of your folders like inbox, sent items, and deleted
items.
>
> Anyway, the description of the ribbon is right. Up top is the tabs and
> on the bottom is the categories. I know jaws has a virtual ribbon,
> but that totally misses my point. Personally I find the jaws virtual
> menus worse than
>
> the office ribbon since I don't see the split buttons which is like a
> submenu with the ribbonns.
> I use the standard ribbons and in fact forget how to turn on virtual
> ribbons.
> But I'm talking about microsoft accessibility, not jaws. Not everyone
> uses jaws. In fact I bet with free screen readers and more readers now on
the
> market, I bet you less and less use jaws. So IMO, microsoft needs to
make
> their products more accessible. You have to tab and tab on the lower
> ribbon
>
> to get to everything. Another example, for those who used powerpoint,
> you cannot tab on the lower ribbon to the sound transitions. Try it.
> Go to the transitions tab and try to find the sound effects. Unless
> you go backwards, meaning starting at the end, and shift tabbing back,
> you will not hear sound effects group. I never knew it was there until
> someone told me where, because jaws skipped over it. I navigated that
> tab many times and never saw it. Also, in Word, sometimes it skips
> things on the lower ribbon too. I realize many like ribbons, but I've
> spoken to lots of people, I mean sighted people too, who find it a
> pain. They, too, would rather scroll and skim through a menu.
>
> Another challenge I find is galleries. In a gallery, you right arrow
> over to
>
> your options but then it puts you back at your first option. Its hard
> to explain, but I see this a lot in powerpoint.
> And finally, Access 2003 was accessible and in later versions it is not.
>
> Another thing is that in 2010 version, Word still puts extra spacing
> between
>
> your lines. How is a totally blind person going to know this?
> I don't think they will. You have to change the spacing after to 0
> points and the default is 10 points. Jaws says single spaced even
> though to a sighted person, and I noticed as I looked close, that
> there was extra space between lines.
>
> At least one good thing is you can create your own tab, thereby
> customizing it to your liking and can get to frequently used stuff by
putting it there.
> I want to find out how to create a tab and use it.
> Chris, I'm glad you like office 2010, but I think you will find that
> as you need more applications and navigate other applications, you
> will find glitches. Also, I hear windows 8 is more visual and NFB
> isn't doing anything about it.
> For instance you won't have a shut down button on the start menu. It
> looks more like a tablet I heard. A trainer that I worked with who
> saw the beta version told me this.
> Ashley
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Nusbaum
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:43 PM
> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> Subject: [nabs-l] the accessibility of newer versions of Windows
> andMicrosoft Office
>
> Hi Kirt, Ashley, and everyone,
>
> With this message, I'm changing the subject so it reflects the new
> topic of this thread more clearly.
>
> Don't forget about Microsoft Outlook! I've been using Outlook for
> about two months now, and I love it! Gmail's Web interface is pretty
> accessible, but it only works in basic HTML view, which doesn't have
> all the features of Gmail's standard view, which isn't accessible in
> the least. Outlook, on the other hand, is totally accessible, easy to
> learn and to use (much easier than Gmail's Web interface, I believe,)
> and all of its features are accessible. By the way, I'm using Outlook
> 2010, which is part of Microsoft Office 2010, on a laptop running Windows
7 Home Premium and JAWS 12.
>
> I actually think the virtual ribbons are pretty easy to use, once you
> get the hang of it. They're very much like the submenus in older
> Microsoft Office menu bars, except the ribbons are set up in the form
> of tabs which appear across the top of the screen for a sighted person
> with lower ribbons inside those tabs. This may seem a little
> confusing, as I'm describing partly what it would look like to a
> sighted person, based on what sighted people have told me. If you are
> using JAWS, the ribbons, like older menu bars, are accessed by
> pressing the alt key from within a program that has them, such as
> Microsoft Word or Outlook 2010. You will first see tabs, which are the
> "top" part of the ribbons. You navigate through these tabs by pressing
> the left and right arrow keys. Once you find the tab you want, press
> down arrow, which takes you into that tab's lower ribbon, which is
> like its submenu. Each option in this submenu is interpreted by JAWS
> as a button. So, for example, if you are wanting to reply to all in
> Outlook, you would go to the message tab, then down arrow on it, then
> go to the respond submenu, right arrow, and down arrow until JAWS says
> "reply all button" and hit enter. So, the ribbons are similar to menu bars
once you get used to them.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 4:57 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace
>
> Ashley,
> You might want to enable virtual ribbons in the jaws quick settings.
> (or with insert + v in microsoft office applications, whichever you
> prefer) I actually find microsoft office 2010 extremely accessible
> because of things like the quick access tool bar and because I don't
> have to tab through everything in a ribbon to access it...keystrokes
> still work, you can turn on virtual ribbons to make it look almost
> like it used to before and, honestly, I like the ribbons better than
> the menus sometimes just because it's really easy, in my opinion, to
> find what I need. And, as I said, the quick access tool bar is a huge
plus for me.
> Best,
> Kirt
>
> On 6/13/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Bill,
>> There are many barriers in accessibility in windows with software.
>> However,
>>
>> that said, I believe windows with a paid screen reader like jaws or
>> window eyes gives us more accessibility in the Operating system. We
>> have more access too because you can customize not only the
>> applications but you can customize your screen reader settings. I do
>> not know how much customization
>>
>> you can do with voice over. As you said, its drawbacks are it only
>> works with products produced by Apple.
>> The only way we solve the accessibility challenge is to raise
>> awareness so software makers build accessibility in the software from
>> the beginning. Too
>>
>> often its an after thought and then if you are lucky, your employer
>> may have
>>
>> scripts produced for you to access their software.
>> Accessibility is getting worse. The new ribbons from Office suite as
>> of 2007
>>
>> make finding things more a challenge because while a sighted person
>> can skim
>>
>> the row and click on stuff, we have to tab and hear all options. In a
>> traditional menu, we could scroll it pretty fast with first letter
>> navigation or a hot key if Office assigned one. For instance, In the
>> old Word, I would press alt t for tools, then w for word count.
>> If you think its bad now, the windows 8 interface is worse. I know as
>> I spoke to some computer trainers and testers. The windows 8 system
>> looks more like a touch screen. We will not have a shut down option
>> on the start menu as we do now.
>>
>> Popular software currently isn't accessible. These include
>> quickbooks, quicken, as well as Microsoft's Access, publisher, and share
point.
>> So there are certainly accessibility challenges out there but that
>> said, I think the paid screen readers give us a lot more flexibility
>> to access a wide variety of applications and we can customize it as
well.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:22 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Getting employed/accessing the workplace
>>
>> I shutter to think that Apple becomes the standard. The only thing
>> they have going for them is a poor screen reader built right into the
>> system. Don't forget that VO only works fully with applications
>> produced by Apple. MS office experience is not great, support for
>> firefox I have heard is not good to not existent. I would imagine
>> the third party business applications, though sometimes not
>> accessible on windows probably would be less so with VO. Until Apple
>> and the software vendors for Mac OS, I think that windows gives us
>> better access to a fully capable screen reader with access to a far
>> wider viriety of everyday and specialty programs.
>> Bill
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Wasif, Zunaira
>> <Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org> wrote:
>>> It doesn't directly mention web cites, but it has been applied to web
>>> cites a long with telecommunications and other such services. There is
>>> a miscellaneous portion as well, I believe its section 5, that may
>>> apply. What do you suggest to improve job accessibility? The Apple
>>> conversion was just a thought.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of David Andrews
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:00 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>>
>>> Please get your information straight. The ADA does not currently
>>> cover web sites. It is likely too in the future but currently doesn't.
>>>
>>> Apple stuff is primarily consumer-oriented, and while they should be
>>> applauded for their efforts in accessibility, they do not even come
>>> close in giving us the tools we sometimes need to make
>>> employment-oriented web sites and software accessible.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 02:19 PM 6/12/2012, you wrote:
>>>>I'm hoping, some what fancifully, that five years from now all
>>>>employers will be using Apple products and many jobs will become
>>>>accessible. If we sue employers for not having accessible soft
>>>>ware, it might push them towards the accessibility conversion. I
>>>>have two clients right now who may get fired because JAWS isn't
>>>>working well with the employer's technology. This is a form of
>>>>discrimination and it violates the ADA in the same way that
>>>>inaccessible web cites violate
>>>
>>>>the ADA. I have a client who was denied a job interview even though
>>>>he's worked in the field because he wasn't working with the Lighthouse.
>>>
>>>>All of these people should have jobs and probably would if the ADA
>>>>were
>>> enforced.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>On Behalf Of Sophie Trist
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:40 PM
>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>>>
>>>>You make some very good points. I did not know that most employers
>>>>ask for Lighthouse certification. This is bad for people like me who
>>>>are not affiliated with a Lighthouse because they remind oo much of
>>>>the schools of the blind. As to the inaccessible computer programs,
>>>>maybe we should institute a program where we payed them to install
>>>>acessible
>>> programs?
>>>>I'm not entirely sure, that's just an idea.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" <Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org
>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:00:57 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>>>
>>>>Sometimes extreme measures are required to overcome attitudinal
>>>>hurdles
>>>
>>>>such as this one. I haven't made up my mind about the quota but I know
>>>>that it helped African Americans enter the work place. Maybe
>>>>the only
>>>>way to quickly and effectively remedy this employment issue is
>>>>through reverse discrimination. The legislation is there in the
>>>>form of the ADA and rehab acts, but it isn't implemented. I work
>>>>with clients every day who can't get a job because the employer's
>>>>computer system is
>>>
>>>>running a program that is incompatible with JAWS or Zoom text. The
>>>>fact that employers are still purchasing this type of software is
>>> discriminatory!
>>>>It is the equivalent of not providing an elevator in a multiple
>>>>level building. Maybe the best antidote for this type of
>>>>discrimination is reverse discrimination. The NFB is advocating for
"more programs,"
>>>>but
>>>
>>>>the potential applicant shouldn't have to go through a lighthouse or
>>>>through any program. They should be able to apply off of the street
>>>>like anyone else. A blind applicant shouldn't require a
>>>>certification from a Lighthouse saying that they can type before an
>>>>employer will even interview them. I'm working in this field and I
>>>>see that happen every day. If a visually impaired client calls
>>>>Hilton for a customer service job the first question the recruiter
>>>>asks is, "are you working with the Lighthouse?" The reason that
>>>>companies do this is because they want their corporate tax credit
>>>>and they want assurance from the Lighthouse that the blind person
>>>>has the skills for the job. My question is, how do they find out if
>>>>a nonvisually impaired employee
>>> has the skills?
>>>>They want an incentive to hire disabled people. The attitude is
>>>>"oh, yeh? You want me to hire a blind person? You better give me a
>>>>tax break." In other words, they are saying, "Oh yeh? You better
>>>>pay me to hire that blind person." This is the current situation.
>>>>Our government pays people to hire disabled workers and companies
>>>>like Goodwill thrive off of this. In job development exercises we
>>>>are taught to market the corporate tax credit, not the client. How
>>>>is this
>>>
>>>>any better than the quota system? I'm not saying the quota system
>>>>is perfect, but maybe it's the best option we have right now. Maybe
>>>>its an
>>> effective way of
>>>>proving that "we are worth something." If there is a better
>>>>option I
>>>>would love to hear it so I can advocate for it in my agency and make
>>>>change.
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:26 AM
>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>>>
>>>>The issue of hiring quotas for minority groups has popped up in the
>>>>past, and it has caused nothing but controversy. If there is to be
>>>>ahiring quota for disabled people, non-disabled people who were
>>>>rejected or whose jobs were taken away and given to the disabled
>>>>could argue reverse--discrimination. Besides, we want them to hire
>>>>us because
>>>
>>>>we're worth something, not just because they have to fill a certain
>>> quota.
>>>>Evem mentally disabled individuals can perform simple factory jobs.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Wasif, Zunaira" <Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org
>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>Date sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:57:06 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>>>
>>>>What do people think about a hiring quota for disabled people?
>>>>This
>>>>would render Good Will's argument, that disabled people need to
>>>>settle for subminum wages or no wages, obselete.
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring
>>>>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 PM
>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>>>
>>>>Ashley,
>>>> You said there may not be a set corporate policy, and I suppose
>>>>you're probably right. But there should be, and that's why this
>>>>boycott makes sense to me. If you have some branches paying any
>>>>employees below the minimum wage, you really do need a national
>>>>policy
>>> to set that straight.
>>>>Unfortunate, but true. I really think it is that simple...this is
>>>>one of those few issues where there isn't much of a grey area, in my
>>>>humble
>>>
>>>>opinion.
>>>> Take it or leave it,
>>>>Kirt
>>>>
>>>>On 6/11/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Elizabeth,
>>>> Perhaps, the figure supports my theory that in fact most employees
>>>>are
>>>>
>>>> paid
>>>>
>>>> above minimum wage. As Arielle said, most locations vary in what
>>>> they
>>>
>>>>pay. I
>>>>
>>>> don't think there is a set corporate policy.
>>>>
>>>> Ashley
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Elizabeth
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:24 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>
>>>> Please forgive me as I did not read through the entire article you
>>>>make reference to in your post. However, now that I have read it, I
>>>>am
>>>>
>>>> still wondering how they can come up with an average of $7.47 when
>>>>someone is only making $1.44. I am not a math genius by any means,
>>>>but
>>>>
>>>> it would seem to me that if someone is only making $1.44, and the
>>>>average is $7.47, then that would mean someone is making a
>>>>considerable
>>>
>>>>amount more than what most people are making to achieve such an
>>>>average. Does this make any sense? I am not necessarily questioning
>>>>the
>>>
>>>>information you cited from the article, but rather questioning the
>>>>information that was cited in the article itself.
>>>> There is just something about it that does not make sense to me.
>>>>I am
>>>> sorry that I cannot find a better way to explain it.
>>>>
>>>> Warm regards,
>>>> Elizabeth
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" <gpaikens at gmail.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:26 PM
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Elizabeth,
>>>> I should have included my sources. The first was the article
>>>>recently posted to the list by Anil Lewis:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/208068/189/Goodwill-Pays-Disabl
>>>>ed-E
>>>> mployees-Less-than-Minimum-Wage This article gives the number of
>>>>employees impacted and their average wage. The reason that an
>>>>average wage of $7.47 could still be below minimum wage is because
>>>>many states
>>>
>>>>have minimum wage laws that are higher
>>>>
>>>> than the federal minimum wage. For a quick list of minimum wage
>>>>by state, go to:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages
>>>>
>>>> Please check my facts in case I misread.
>>>>
>>>> -Greg
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:16 AM, Elizabeth wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>>
>>>> I have to say that your numbers to not make much sense to me. If
>>>>these employees are making $7.47 as mentioned in your post, , then
>>>>how
>>>
>>>>exactly
>>>>
>>>> does that constitute as a subminimum wage? Is it possible the
>>>>calculated
>>>>
>>>> average of these employees also includes the outrageously high
>>>>salaries of those who may hold management positions which in effect
>>>>would cancel out the extremely low subminimum wages paid to the
>>>>factory
>>>
>>>>worker or the
>>>>
>>>> average employee thus creating an average that appears to be above
>>>>the national minimum wage? I am not sure where you found your
>>>>numbers, but if
>>>>
>>>> what you state is true, then I do not see how this would be an
>>>> issue
>>>>
>>>> of paying people subminimum wage.
>>>>
>>>> Warm regards,
>>>> Elizabeth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Greg Aikens" <gpaikens at gmail.com
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:46 AM
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Good Will Boycott Etc.
>>>>
>>>> Sean's post got me thinking about how many employees are actually
>>>>impacted by this policy and how much it would cost for them to
>>>>actually
>>>>
>>>> make these changes. According to the article Anil Lewis posted,
>>>> 7300
>>>
>>>>employees are hired on their certificate to pay disabled workers
>>>>less than minimum wage, but the average wage paid them is $7.47,
>>>>which is actually higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I
>>>>can't say what the average minimum wage for these workers
>>>>
>>>> would be because each state is different, but I wouldn't imagine
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> could be higher than $8.50. So they would have to on average pay
>>>>workers with disabilities
>>>> $1 more per hour, $40 more per week, $2080 per year. Multiply
>>>>that
>>>>
>>>> by the 7300 employees on the certificate and you get $15,184,000.
>>>>
>>>> I was surprised that the number of workers impacted by this policy
>>>>is so
>>>>
>>>> high.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I thought these numbers were interesting and thought I
>>>>would post in case others are interested too.
>>>>
>>>> -Greg
>>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Gmail wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good afternoon,
>>>>
>>>> One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media
>>>> attention
>>>>
>>>> for
>>>> the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts
>>>>are complementary rather than mutually exclusive.
>>>>
>>>> We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the,
>>>> largest and
>>>>
>>>> most
>>>> visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay
>>>> workers
>>>>
>>>> with
>>>> disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the
>>>>
>>>> pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be
>>>> scrutinized
>>>
>>>>by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes.
>>>>
>>>> Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business
>>>>with the federal government, providing goods and services through
>>>>non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are
>>>>frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value.
>>>> Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well,
>>>>but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize
>>>>nonprofits to create employment opportunities
>>>>
>>>> for
>>>> blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect,
>>>>subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the
>>>>
>>>> management of
>>>>
>>>> these
>>>> non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of
>>>>disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce
>>>>output justifying the minimum wage in the market?
>>>>
>>>> I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who
>>>>are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than
>>>>
>>>> most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level
>>>>of output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to
>>>>subsidize the
>>>
>>>>wage to give them
>>>>
>>>> the
>>>> dignity of equal treatment under the law.
>>>>
>>>> I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per
>>>>
>>>> hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat.
>>>>The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to
>>>>achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply,
>>>>but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in
>>>>government contracting should have to
>>>>
>>>> fill
>>>> a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with
>>>>disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it
>>>>stands
>>>>
>>>> now,
>>>> there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops.
>>>>
>>>> While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for
>>>>
>>>> the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities
>>>>rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying
>>>>that
>>>
>>>>it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America,
>>>>have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and
>>>>
>>>> lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are
>>>>completely correct. The boycott of Good
>>>>
>>>> Will
>>>> is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each
>>>> of us
>>>>
>>>> to
>>>> keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will
>>>>it cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their
>>>>workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost
>>>>realistically going to
>>>>
>>>> lead
>>>> to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim?
>>>>I
>>>>
>>>> can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is
>>>>disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker
>>>>currently makes $1.50 an
>>>>
>>>> hour.
>>>> Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the
>>>> employee
>>>
>>>>is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an
>>>>
>>>> extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100
>>>>employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer).
>>>> This would represent an annual cost increase
>>>>
>>>> of
>>>> $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a
>>>>
>>>> pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller
>>>>
>>>> shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor
>>>>unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is
>>>>changed is bogus and cynical.
>>>> As I
>>>> said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their
>>>>
>>>> business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so
>>>>
>>>> the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the
>>>>government pays.
>>>> And, as
>>>> I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the
>>>>dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to
>>>>support the
>>>>
>>>> 70,
>>>> 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who
>>>>somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that
>>>>
>>>> they are doing something positive for people with disabilities.
>>>> It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me
>>>>
>>>> because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply
>>>> to
>>>
>>>>everybody in the employment market, full stop.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> --
>> Bill Casson
>> University of New Mexico
>> M.S. Computer Science
>> Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11
>> B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci.
>> (505) 695-1374
>> cassonw at gmail.com
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Bill Casson
University of New Mexico
M.S. Computer Science
Lewis & Clark Alumnus '11
B.A. Physics and Math/Comp Sci.
(505) 695-1374
cassonw at gmail.com
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