[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyat social gatherings
Ashley Bramlett
bookwormahb at earthlink.net
Sat Sep 15 04:53:32 UTC 2012
Desiree,
I would join such a list if it were created. You can create groups with
yahoo sponsorship or another host.
I think Arielle said she was interested too at one point; perhaps you and
her can talk off list about it.
Good topic.
Ashley
-----Original Message-----
From: Desiree Oudinot
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:29 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyat
social gatherings
And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
discuss these kinds of issues and more. And, at the risk of offending
people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate from the NFB or
ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind person, no matter
their political or social status or whatever, to discuss how they fit
in with society. Why does it offend you that blind people, whether
they be men or women, should try to do their best to interact as
sighted people do? Are there really specific guidelines we have to
follow? I really want to understand this. I know as well as anyone
what struggles we have to go through growing up just to be treated
like human beings. First, we're blind people, then we're young, and
the stereotypes surrounding young people of our generation are just as
crippling as those surrounding being blind. So being dealt both as our
hand in life is kind of a double whammy. I still struggle when someone
actually treats me as an equal. I want to run away.
On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
> 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out of
> me because it just does for some reason.
> 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
> shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
> girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
> will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
> this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care of
> themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
> current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
> man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
> that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
> are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind woman
> cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since Jason
> can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
> to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
> different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
> ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
> due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
> but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working for
> nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
> accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
> organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
> saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
> wife. You will be poor." No way.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> sighted societyat social gatherings
>
> Chris wrote,
> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which
> our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we are
> weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>
> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
> that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
> another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
> unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
> self-loathing, and anguish.
>
> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
> particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
> put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
> pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
> interested.
>
> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are
> accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
> look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
> are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
> respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we can
> follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the message
> should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
> pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the formation
> of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, and
> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>
> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
> into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
> behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
> to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
> unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
> ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
> result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
> or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
> arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort
> similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
> explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called right
> way to act.
>
> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
> does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
> social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't judge
> or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
> unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge someone
> who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
> journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
> blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
> can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
> work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind people
> how to look and act like sighted people.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marc
> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Brandon and all,
>
> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
> thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
> brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
> changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
> message.
>
> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out
> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of
> a future NABS membership call.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hello,
> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
> sex. There is
> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with
> some
> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
> :)
> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
> sighted
> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
> blind
> community.
> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
> not) have
> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
> against the grain
> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
> suggested that
> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
> world thinks.
> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
> looks at a
> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
> or a
> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
> him and when
> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
> really weird and
> she turns around and walks a mile away.
> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
> both sexual
> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
> of attention
> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
> aren't meant
> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
> would greatly
> improve convention.
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hi all,
> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
> Whozit
> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
> some
> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
> NABS
> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
> among
> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
> position,
> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
> extension, an
> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
> or
> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
> diversity
> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
> available
> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
> fact,
> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop
> about
> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
> Arielle
>
> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Hello,
> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
> never
> seen
>
> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
> having to
> be
>
> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
> condoms in
> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
> browsing...
> Condoms,
>
> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
> probably need
> to
>
> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
> a condom
> or
>
> use a dental dam.
> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial. The
> packing
> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I
> for one
> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
> that sell
> hot
>
> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to
> buy a box
> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
> (Then of
> course
>
> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
> bring
> their
>
> own utensil's).
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anmol Bhatia
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
>
> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
> convention...
>
> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even
> braille
> them
>
> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>
> Anmol
>
> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
> Perhaps
> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
> like a breeze
> among flowers.
> Hellen Keller
>
>
> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing
> list"
>
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
> Hi, Brandon,
>
> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
> knows that site is trust worthy.
> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
> presume?
> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
> the experience is often not pleasant.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
> Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hi all,
> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
> are kind of in a
> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
> for this list, since
> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
> unique to blindness.
> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
> too far afield, I
> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
> also think that
> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
> legitimate one and
> that there might be other blind people out here,
> including teenagers,
> who have similar concerns about how to get
> condoms, birth control or
> sexual health information without a lot of
> awkwardness or
> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
> you have to depend
> on someone else (especially parents) for
> transportation which can make
> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
> including
> www.condomania.com
> www.undercovercondoms.com
> and
> www.condomdepot.com
> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
> choices at
> www.amazon.com
> If you go to your health center on campus for any
> reason, it shouldn't
> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
> about condoms.
> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
> having sex with a
> partner because that is a highly individual
> decision. However, I feel
> it important that anyone who is considering having
> sex for the first
> time ensure you understand what all of your
> options are for preventing
> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
> advantages and
> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
> to use condoms and
> birth control. There are a couple different
> websites with this kind
> of information:
> www.plannedparenthood.org
> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
> or
> www.scarleteen.com
> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
> the moment because my
> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
> pregnancy at a very
> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
> guy she had only
> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
> birth control pills,
> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
> don't believe that
> sex should be feared, it is something that
> takes some responsibility,
> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
> while minimizing the
> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
> there are other ways
> to be physically intimate with someone that are
> less risky, which
> these online forums will talk about.
> I also want to bring up an issue that is
> somewhat relevant to sexual
> health, which I experienced and I think that some
> of you might also be
> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
> parents drive you to
> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
> sit in or even
> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
> college in my home
> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
> doctors' appointments
> and would then want to come in and chat with the
> doctor while he/she
> was examining me. This was partly because my
> parents and I saw many of
> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
> good opportunity to
> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
> health while she was
> there, or because she was curious to see what the
> doctor recommended
> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
> realized that while it
> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
> privacy as an adult
> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
> room while I was seeing
> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
> until I was 21 and in
> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
> By the time you are 18,
> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
> you have a right to
> privacy of your medical information and it is
> important to establish a
> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
> person interfering.
> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
> health and by the time
> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
> discussing your sexual
> activities or questions with your doctors without
> your parents being
> around. You might also want to consider getting a
> driver or even
> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
> this problem.
> On a related note, by the time you are in high
> school, you should know
> the names of all medications you take on a
> regular basis and any
> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
> ever have to go to the
> emergency room, this kind of information may
> be requested of you.
> Best,
> Arielle
>
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