[nabs-l] social norms: how we canfit inwithsightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
Laurel
laurel.stockard at gmail.com
Mon Sep 17 01:40:45 UTC 2012
I usually don't chip in alot on the list, but I saw this thread and
couldn't help. First, let me apologize in advance if I echo to closely
the thoughts of somebody else. HOnestly, I am getting to this Sunday
night and there's a tun of responses, and due to time I haven't read
them all. /smiles/
Quite honestly, more than learning how to conform to sighted society,
or learning whether or not I should be concerned with others opinion
of me, or trying to figure out whether it's even worth me trying to
fit in. I really wish that there could be a help line or something,
where there were people we could talk too about stuff like this. I
wish there was somewhere safe that we could discuss the various
situations that we find ourselves in that present awkwardly to us, or
present challenges for us we could get imput/help/advice from others.
I've always found it hard to find a good person who could be a
sounding board for me, because either they don't understand what the
problem is, or people don't understand where I'm coming from. I think
if we as a group, or members of our group, should do anything that it
would be to provide a safe place people can go to talk it out. I even
wish there was a councilor available who understood the struggles we
face who could help or whatever.
anyways, just my thoughts
Laurel
On 9/15/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Ah, that's right; I should have thought of that. Beth, these info hotlines
>
> are quite useful!
> You could give your zip code to him off list if you want to.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wmodnl wmodnl
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 7:44 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we canfit
> inwithsightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>
> What is your zip code? I can check to see what is in your area.
> Most major cities have a 311 or 211 information hotline open 24/7 for
> finding this information. You do not have to disclose who you are.
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Sep 15, 2012, at 7:22 PM, "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Do they have drinks at a food pantry? Sodas? Juices? I can't afford it
>>
>> all.
>> Beth
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 19:06:47 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit
>> inwithsightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>>
>> Beth,
>> Glad you had counseling. I hope things work out for you. I don't want to
>> get
>> too off topic. I'll just say that there are food pantries and don't
>> hesitate
>> to use them.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Beth
>> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 6:56 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in
>> withsightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>>
>> Very good and well said, Arielle. I already have counseling and
>> therapy and a diagnosis of bipolar and a boyfriend who makes such
>> fun of me and call me a drama queen. That's what I get for
>> trying to be a little girl when I was four. Life isn't rainbows
>> and bunnies I know. And I'm livingfb proof of it. Life is NOT
>> one big party and it's hell if you look hard enough. I have
>> counseling to deal with my problems, but my benefits are about to
>> be suspended because I may have to change counelors or doctors,
>> and my food stamps went down. Idk how to deal with those human
>> services people and I go humgry. All because I can't get a place
>> to live, a job, etc.
>> Beth
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:10:42 -0600
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>> sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>>
>> Hi all,
>> Firstly, Beth and Desiree, I am truly sorry to hear about the
>> things
>> your parents said or did to you regarding your blindness and
>> conformity to social norms. Beth, what your parents did is
>> totally
>> unacceptable. Of course there is nothing wrong with discussing
>> your
>> love life or with playing princess games when you were little and
>> those things don't even have anything to do with your being
>> blind. If
>> you haven't yet, I would suggest getting some counseling to help
>> you
>> cope with these experiences you had as it seems they are still
>> affecting you today.
>> Desiree, there is no reason for your parents to tell you that you
>> will
>> end up "fat and worthless" merely because you are blind. These
>> statements are not only inaccurate and cruel, but they also can't
>> possibly do you any good. I hope that by being on this list you
>> have
>> learned what blind people have accomplished and what you can
>> accomplish in your own life. From your posts here, it is clear
>> that
>> you are intelligent, have good ideas, and care about others. I
>> hope
>> that you will get to know some other blind people a little better
>> so
>> that you can discover the kinds of things that blind people are
>> capable of achieving. Whether it be at an NFB function, an ACB
>> function, or just a meeting with another blind person who lives
>> near
>> you, I think that our acquaintances with other blind people are
>> the
>> best defense against the kinds of negative messages about
>> blindness
>> and about ourselves that we all get from society at some point.
>> The
>> best way to discover what you are good at, and what you enjoy
>> doing,
>> is to just try a few different activities. Please don't base your
>> beliefs about what you can do on the negative statements of
>> people who
>> don't know anything about blindness and who don't believe in
>> blind
>> people.
>> Finally, I want to make a general comment. We have been talking a
>> lot
>> about whether we should try to conform to the social norms around
>> us.
>> While that is one way to increase our chances of being accepted,
>> it
>> doesn't always work. Another way to increase our chances of being
>> accepted is to move to a different community or a different
>> situation
>> whose norms are closer to our own. For some of us that might mean
>> spending more time with other blind people. For others, it might
>> mean
>> moving to a place that has better public transportation so that
>> the
>> fact we can't drive doesn't interfere with our fitting in as
>> much. Or,
>> it could mean moving to an academic field where our intellectual
>> abilities matter more than what we are wearing, etc.
>> I grew up in Scottsdale, AZ, a wealthy suburb where the sighted
>> women
>> around me were very much into fashion and beauty. During myteen
>> years
>> my mother tried to ensure I was accepted by urging (or even
>> requiring)
>> me to dress nicely, do fancy things with my hair and wear
>> makeup. I
>> also have had bad acne since I was 11, and I was put on several
>> medications to try to clear it up, but none were very effective.
>> There
>> were also a couple of years during my adolescence where I was
>> required
>> to get expensive facials, which involved painful "extractions" to
>> attempt to treat my acne. (Sorry to be gross!) While I wanted to
>> be
>> accepted at school by sighted people, I eventually concluded that
>> it
>> wasn't worth spending an hour a day straightening my hair, and
>> enduring the facials only to have my face break out again a few
>> weeks
>> later. Plus, I was a teen, and didn't like having my mother
>> micromanage my appearance in these ways. I eventually decided
>> that all
>> sighted people were shallow, superficial jerks who weren't worth
>> my
>> time and effort to try and impress. So out of rebellion, I
>> started
>> letting my hair go crazy whenever I could get away with it, and
>> spent
>> all my time with the few blind friends I had. What I didn't know
>> at
>> the time was that my stereotype of all sighted people as shallow
>> really only applied to sighted people living in Scottsdale. Once
>> I
>> grew up and got the heck out of Scottsdale, I eventually found a
>> few
>> sighted people who accepted me for who I was, even without the
>> facials
>> and with a low-maintenance haircut. I realize now that I really
>> didn't
>> belong in Scottsdale at all, and blindness had some to do with it
>> (Scottsdale also has horrible public transportation), but it was
>> also
>> about my personality. However, where I live now, I am able to be
>> accepted without having to change much of who I am.
>> I think that some of us who are struggling to be accepted might
>> be
>> happier in a different environment--a different part of the
>> country,
>> attending college or volunteering with peers who share our
>> interests,
>> or even just getting out of our parents' homes. I actually
>> believe
>> that voc rehab agencies should subsidize rent costs so that blind
>> adults who are still living at home can get their own apartments.
>> The
>> family home can be a very restrictive environment for many blind
>> adults for a variety of reasons: parents who are still
>> over-protective, family drama, or even just the fact that the
>> house is
>> far from public transportation options. It is also hard to build
>> blindness skills while living at home, or to date. If you have
>> the
>> means to move out, I would encourage you to do so, as a step
>> toward
>> building a life of your own design.
>> I know that the teens on the list may have a lot less flexibility
>> as
>> far as choosing your environment. However, even if you are a teen
>> and
>> cannot move out yet, you can perhaps look around your school for
>> clubs
>> to join with people in them who share your interests and views.
>> And I
>> would encourage you to take every opportunity to get to know
>> blind
>> people, both those your age and those who are older who can
>> mentor
>> you. Of course blind people don't share everything in common, but
>> you
>> may well find that the confidence you gain from being accepted by
>> blind people spills over into your encounters with sighted
>> people.
>> Best,
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 9/15/12, wmodnl wmodnl <wmodnl at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Good morning all,
>> My message here is not exactly blindness related; however, it is
>> on a topic
>> we are discussing. That is the topic of posture. I thought of
>> this since
>> posture is a issue for us as blind people.
>> There is a study here in Boston for working with lower back
>> pain. I bring
>> this up because bad back pain from surgical operations. Many
>> back
>> conditions, cause one to have bad posture. I have really bad
>> posture since
>> I had surgery that has caused me to stand on a slant.
>> The study offers treatment for one to have free PT and yoga,
>> Reky.
>> Wright me off-list for more information.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Sep 15, 2012, at 9:42 AM, "Rania Ismail CMT"
>> <raniaismail04 at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> I have issues with balance and posture so my yoga instructor is
>> working
>> on
>> that with me. Working with a yoga instructor to correct your
>> posture is
>> another idea. I am also working on straingthening my muscles in
>> yoga.
>> Massage can also help by relaxing the muscles and improving
>> range of
>> motion
>> so you can learn how to move and change your posture.
>> Rania,
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Ashley Bramlett
>> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 2:47 AM
>> To: Nationstrengthening my muscles in yoga as well. Even getting
>> a
>> massage
>> Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>> sighted
>> societyats.. could help ocial gatherings
>>
>> Arielle,
>> I think a seminar could be held without seeming like preaching.
>> I said to Chris that norms differ based on the situation.
>> We'd have to be careful though; we do not want participants to
>> feel that
>> every situation is very scripted. As I said before, social
>> gatherings,
>> particularly among young people, are relaxed and informal.
>>
>> If you did such a seminar the format could be lecture based,
>> modeling, and
>>
>> question and answer. People could even submit questions
>> anonymously for
>> the
>> discussion part.
>> What could be covered are standard rules of etiquette. My dad
>> feels that
>> blind people are not as polite and in crowds are quick to shove
>> each other
>>
>> aside, and sadly this is partly true.
>> Its not about acting like sighted people, its about being
>> courteous and
>> blending in.
>> You could talk about it briefly and role play situations. Topics
>> like
>> manners, what to do when you greet a new person,
>> how you are supposed to wait in line for many things, clothing
>> tips,
>> nonverbal communication like gestures, and acceptable ways of
>> fidgiting.
>> Blindisms are not acceptable, but there are acceptable ways of
>> fidgiting
>> or
>> self stimulation that are.
>>
>> We want to come across as approachable and nice people.
>> Nonverbal
>> communication includes correct posture. I suppose if it's a
>> chronic issue,
>>
>> one might want to ask a doctor about it to ensure no underlying
>> coordination disorder exists. You could also work with a
>> physical
>> theripist
>> if a muscular problem is present preventing you from having
>> correct
>> posture.
>>
>> My guess is a lot of blind people look down as they do not have
>> visual
>> stimulation to look up and around. Then it's a habit to be bent
>> over at
>> the
>> shoulders which is hard to correct. Another theory I have is
>> that blind
>> kids
>>
>> were sheltered and kept from moving about freely; eventually,
>> this affects
>>
>> posture because your body adapts to a still position; muscles
>> can shorten,
>>
>> lose their elasticity, become stiff and disjointed.
>>
>> I do pretty good with posture. But, I do struggle with eye
>> contact. I have
>>
>> some vision and if I try to focus for a long time, my eyes start
>> their
>> nystagmus fit, meaning they shake involuntarily. Another thing
>> is my
>> parents
>>
>> tell me I look like I'm staring at people; I don't mean too, but
>> its
>> simply
>> that I'm looking around to see what I can.
>> Another thing is while I have stopped rocking since my folks
>> worked on
>> that
>> as I was young, I do it occasionally. I do so involuntarily for
>> balance
>> probably without knowing I'm doing it. So, its impossible for me
>> to stop
>> rocking totally; I simply cannot control a behavior I do not
>> realize I'm
>> doing. If I concentrate on walking upright and still, I won't do
>> it. But I
>>
>> won't do this most of the time; I simply have too much to think
>> about
>> rather
>>
>> than asking myself, am I walking straight, walking upright, and
>> is my head
>>
>> still.
>>
>>
>> I think its important for us to find out about norms and find
>> out where to
>>
>> find such information. The seminar should include that. Online
>> resources
>> about fashion trends and etiquette is an idea; asking people
>> around us is
>>
>> another, and
>> finally magazines would be another. I also wonder if there are
>> existing
>> videos either for the public, or for us specifically, on this.
>> Maybe AFB
>> or
>> APH would have something, or maybe a video with good
>> descriptions exists
>> for
>>
>> the general audience. I don't know.
>>
>> Speaking of nonverbal communication, I'd really like to learn
>> gestures.
>> Someday, if I take public speaking, I'm going to ask the teacher
>> to teach
>> me
>>
>> this.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Arielle Silverman
>> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:26 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>> sighted
>> societyat
>>
>> social gatherings
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I think it is absolutely critical to point out that "sighted
>> society"
>> is not a uniform group of people who all share identical norms,
>> attitudes and actions. If it were, there would be no wars, no
>> religious or political differences, no unique languages,
>> cultures,
>> customs, etc. Rather, "society" as a whole is divided into many
>> subgroups that all carry different norms. A few norms, like not
>> killing other people, are near-universal, but most customs
>> relating to
>> dress, mannerisms, speech, nonverbal communication, etc. differ
>> between cultures and sometimes between subgroups within a
>> culture
>> (i.e. people dress differently in San Francisco than they do in
>> Washington, D.C. and college students dress differently from
>> lawyers
>> etc.) It is impossible to teach blind people a universal set of
>> nonverbal behaviors to adopt even if we wanted to. And, I
>> believe that
>> blind people should have just as much right as sighted people to
>> make
>> informed choices about what kinds of norms to follow or not
>> follow,
>> just as women can choose whether to be stay-at-home mothers or
>> to work
>> even if being a working woman is not yet "the norm". Of course,
>> there
>> are consequences for failing to "blend in" and look like
>> everybody
>> else, but sometimes there are things to be gained by doing this,
>> or
>> "blending in" is simply too difficult. As responsible adults we
>> need
>> to weigh the costs and benefits of following the norms for
>> specific
>> situations. For example, if I am interviewing for a job, it is
>> probably to my advantage to purchase and wear a suit. However,
>> if I am
>> doing something less high-stakes, and money is tight, I can
>> probably
>> get away with just wearing some nice slacks or a dress, even if
>> most
>> of the other people there are wearing suits.
>> I do think it is useful to give blind students information about
>> how
>> they can learn about the norms present in their particular
>> culture,
>> i.e. how to learn about the dress code for a new job, where to
>> read
>> about current fashions, etc. It is also good to provide a forum
>> for
>> students to ask questions if they wish to learn more about how
>> to
>> blend in in specific situations. However, I do not think that
>> preaching to blind students about the importance of blending in
>> does
>> much good. The consequences of not blending in are self-evident,
>> and
>> again, blind students are responsible young adults who need to
>> come to
>> these decisions for ourselves.
>> Finally, I need to once again speak up on behalf of those blind
>> folks
>> who are labeled "weird" or "socially unskilled" by blind and
>> sighted
>> alike. As a community of blind people with common experiences,
>> we need
>> to stop passing judgment or trying to give these folks social
>> makeovers, and instead acknowledge that all of us are human
>> beings
>> with different levels of skill and ability in different areas. I
>> always find myself advocating for this often-misunderstood
>> subset of
>> the blind community because in some ways I am part of that
>> group. I
>> spent much of my childhood being labeled as socially inadequate,
>> struggled with a few different "blindisms" and today still deal
>> with
>> lifelong gait and posture issues, and challenges with attempting
>> eye
>> contact. Because of these things some may say I look more
>> "blind" than
>> the average successful blind person, yet I am a successful
>> graduate
>> student, financially self-sufficient and in a committed
>> relationship.
>> In my own case I am very very aware of the importance of
>> blending in
>> and of how "different" I look at times, because this was
>> emphasized to
>> me over and over again as a child. My issues are complicated and
>> I
>> have still not determined if the problems I have with posture
>> and
>> balance are due to an over-protective home environment when I
>> was
>> learning to walk, an as-yet-undiagnosed balance/coordination
>> impairment, or both. My problem with eye contact is related to
>> the
>> fact my vision is such that I feel like I am looking at
>> someone's face
>> when I am actually looking slightly down (and if I actually look
>> up
>> toward their face I see nothing). I can correct for this but it
>> takes
>> a ton of effort and focus for me to do so, so most of the time I
>> end
>> up looking down at someone instead of up at them even though I
>> have
>> been told hundreds of times how important it is to attempt eye
>> contact. Some others in our community have additional
>> disabilities or
>> mental conditions that make "blending in" by our definition
>> practically impossible, yet these folks still have a lot to
>> offer in
>> their own way. My point is that so-called social skill deficits
>> like
>> these are often due to a lot more than just not knowing any
>> better or
>> being mentally deficient. It is important to recognize that all
>> members of our community have strengths and abilities of their
>> own,
>> even if they seem weak or deficient or even "weird" to us, and
>> we
>> should do what we can to empower these people instead of using
>> them as
>> examples of what's wrong with our community as a whole. I hope
>> that
>> made some sense.
>> Best,
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
>> 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out
>> of
>> me because it just does for some reason.
>> 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
>> shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
>> girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
>> will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
>> this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care
>> of
>> themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
>> current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
>> man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
>> that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
>> are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind
>> woman
>> cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since
>> Jason
>> can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
>> to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
>> different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
>> ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
>> due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
>> but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working
>> for
>> nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
>> accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
>> organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
>> saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
>> wife. You will be poor." No way.
>> Beth
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>> sighted societyat social gatherings
>>
>> Chris wrote,
>> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules
>> which
>> our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
>> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we
>> are
>> weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>>
>> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
>> that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
>> another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
>> unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
>> self-loathing, and anguish.
>>
>> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
>> particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
>> put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
>> pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
>> interested.
>>
>> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people
>> are
>> accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
>> look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
>> are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
>> respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we
>> can
>> follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the
>> message
>> should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
>> pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the
>> formation
>> of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings,
>> and
>> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
>> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>>
>> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
>> into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
>> behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
>> to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
>> unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
>> ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
>> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
>> result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
>> or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
>> arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the
>> effort
>> similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
>> explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called
>> right
>> way to act.
>>
>> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
>> does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
>> social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't
>> judge
>> or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
>> unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge
>> someone
>> who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
>> journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
>> blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
>> can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
>> work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind
>> people
>> how to look and act like sighted people.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Marc
>> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Brandon and all,
>>
>> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
>> thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
>> brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
>> changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
>> message.
>>
>> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
>> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
>> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
>> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
>> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
>> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
>> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
>> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
>> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
>> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
>> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
>> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
>> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
>> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
>> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
>> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
>> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
>> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut
>> out
>> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
>> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
>> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
>> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
>> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
>> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
>> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
>> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
>> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic
>> of
>> a future NABS membership call.
>>
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>> Hello,
>> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
>> sex. There is
>> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with
>> some
>> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
>> :)
>> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
>> sighted
>> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
>> blind
>> community.
>> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
>> not) have
>> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
>> against the grain
>> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
>> suggested that
>> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
>> world thinks.
>> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
>> looks at a
>> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
>> or a
>> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
>> him and when
>> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
>> really weird and
>> she turns around and walks a mile away.
>> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
>> both sexual
>> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
>> of attention
>> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
>> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
>> aren't meant
>> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
>> would greatly
>> improve convention.
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Arielle Silverman
>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
>> Whozit
>> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
>> some
>> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
>> NABS
>> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
>> among
>> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
>> position,
>> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
>> extension, an
>> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
>> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
>> or
>> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
>> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
>> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
>> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
>> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
>> diversity
>> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
>> available
>> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
>> fact,
>> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop
>> about
>> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
>> never
>> seen
>>
>> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
>> having to
>> be
>>
>> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
>> condoms in
>> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
>> browsing...
>> Condoms,
>>
>> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
>> probably need
>> to
>>
>> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
>> a condom
>> or
>>
>> use a dental dam.
>> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial. The
>> packing
>> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I
>> for one
>> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
>> that sell
>> hot
>>
>> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to
>> buy a box
>> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
>> (Then of
>> course
>>
>> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
>> bring
>> their
>>
>> own utensil's).
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anmol Bhatia
>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>>
>> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
>> convention...
>>
>> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even
>> braille
>> them
>>
>> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>>
>> Anmol
>>
>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>> Perhaps
>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
>> like a breeze
>> among flowers.
>> Hellen Keller
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
>> mailing
>> list"
>>
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
>> Hi, Brandon,
>>
>> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
>> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
>> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
>> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
>> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
>> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
>> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
>> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
>> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
>> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
>> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
>> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
>> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
>> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
>> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
>> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
>> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
>> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
>> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
>> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
>> knows that site is trust worthy.
>> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
>> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
>> presume?
>> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
>> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
>> the experience is often not pleasant.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
>> Silverman
>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
>> are kind of in a
>> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
>> for this list, since
>> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
>> unique to blindness.
>> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
>> too far afield, I
>> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
>> also think that
>> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
>> legitimate one and
>> that there might be other blind people out here,
>> including teenagers,
>> who have similar concerns about how to get
>> condoms, birth control or
>> sexual health information without a lot of
>> awkwardness or
>> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
>> you have to depend
>> on someone else (especially parents) for
>> transportation which can make
>> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
>> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
>> including
>> www.condomania.com
>> www.undercovercondoms.com
>> and
>> www.condomdepot.com
>> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
>> choices at
>> www.amazon.com
>> If you go to your health center on campus for any
>> reason, it shouldn't
>> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
>> about condoms.
>> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
>> having sex with a
>> partner because that is a highly individual
>> decision. However, I feel
>> it important that anyone who is considering having
>> sex for the first
>> time ensure you understand what all of your
>> options are for preventing
>> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
>> advantages and
>> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
>> to use condoms and
>> birth control. There are a couple different
>> websites with this kind
>> of information:
>> www.plannedparenthood.org
>> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
>> or
>> www.scarleteen.com
>> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
>> the moment because my
>> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
>> pregnancy at a very
>> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
>> guy she had only
>> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
>> birth control pills,
>> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
>> don't believe that
>> sex should be feared, it is something that
>> takes some responsibility,
>> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
>> while minimizing the
>> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
>> there are other ways
>> to be physically intimate with someone that are
>> less risky, which
>> these online forums will talk about.
>> I also want to bring up an issue that is
>> somewhat relevant to sexual
>> health, which I experienced and I think that some
>> of you might also be
>> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
>> parents drive you to
>> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
>> sit in or even
>> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
>> college in my home
>> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
>> doctors' appointments
>> and would then want to come in and chat with the
>> doctor while he/she
>> was examining me. This was partly because my
>> parents and I saw many of
>> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
>> good opportunity to
>> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
>> health while she was
>> there, or because she was curious to see what the
>> doctor recommended
>> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
>> realized that while it
>> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
>> privacy as an adult
>> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
>> room while I was seeing
>> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
>> until I was 21 and in
>> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
>> By the time you are 18,
>> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
>> you have a right to
>> privacy of your medical information and it is
>> important to establish a
>> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
>> person interfering.
>> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
>> health and by the time
>> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
>> discussing your sexual
>> activities or questions with your doctors without
>> your parents being
>> around. You might also want to consider getting a
>> driver or even
>> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
>> this problem.
>> On a related note, by the time you are in high
>> school, you should know
>> the names of all medications you take on a
>> regular basis and any
>> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
>> ever have to go to the
>> emergency room, this kind of information may
>> be requested of you.
>> Best,
>> Arielle
>>
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