[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Wed Sep 19 21:55:30 UTC 2012
While it has been a while since I have been in that environment, when I have been in positions of having observers tell me what I
was doing right or wrong it was not that helpful in the end. There is a tendency for anyone observing to judge and provide input
according to their specific standards while the standards among sighted people varies greatly. The answer is somewhere between
trying to conform to a hard and fast standard and ignoring them. It is good to be aware of things that might put people off and
be aware of things one might do thinking they are not observed when they are. However, each of us is an individual and part of
what we might do right or wrong is what makes us an individual. I believe the most important thing we can do is to be observant
ourselves as to what goes on around us and how we are received. We need to realize that we have things to learn about social
interactions, but also that not all difficulties arise because we have done something wrong. Some are simply not going to be
comfortable with us as blind people because of their experiences. I don't think counting on a TVI is the answer. We are best off
consulting a friend whose values we understand and who we can trust.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:01:17 -0700, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote:
>Some of the most beautiful women I know don't wear makeup except for
>weddings and whatnot.
>But I'm not sure that these kinds of questions will even come up.
>It would be really interesting if we were at a party and unknowingly some
>sighted TVIs were walking around talking and observing people and that way
>we could get pointers in a real environment.
>Because what happens is blind people do non acceptable things without even
>thinking about it or realizing that it isn't acceptable.
>For example, I had no idea that it looks weird to always be sitting strait
>on the edge of my seat.
>I was told that it makes me look like I have a chip up my behind...
>I can expound on the benefits of sitting strait all the time, but
>regardless, it is weird. So I have to find a way to sit strait without
>always being on the edge of my seat.
>Also, when I was learning posture, I would get into a position where my
>Adam's apple would stick way out and people said it made me look like a
>chicken... :)
>So I believe the most important part of this list will be that we can ask
>questions where both sighted and non sighted people alike can answer
>questions.
>Thanks,
>Brandon Keith Biggs
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sophie Trist
>Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 1:43 PM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>I agree, Brandon. If we do not know any of the unwritten social
>rules, it will be hard for us to get jobs and/or live a normal
>life. It is important to behave normally and appropriately. If we
>want to change people's attitudes about blindness, we have to
>prove that we have the ability to blend in, to act appropriately.
>This does not mean that we should kill ourselves to fit in, or
>that we should comply with the sighted definition of beauty if it
>goes against our own values. For instance, I do not wear makeup
>because frankly, I have more important things to do. Behaving
>normally is more important than spending hours and hours trying
>to look like a supermodel. I make sure that all my outfits match,
>because if they didn't, I would look weird and they would think,
>"That blind girl can't even pick out her own clothes." Also, if
>you have any intention of attracting a member of the opposite
>sex, you must look presentable.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:04:55 -0700
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>sighted societyatsocial gatherings
>Hello,
>Unfortunately to change attitudes you need to be excepted.
>Considering many blind folks are just novices at the rules of the
>sighted
>world (Especially the congenitally blind), even years of lessons
>may not get
>them to the level to where they would be distressed.
>Also, lots of the stress is because sighted people themselves are
>unsure of
>the rules themselves. If someone purposely breaks a rule once or
>twice to
>get what they want, it is seen as brave. If they break the rules
>all the
>time, it is seen as weird. I totally believe men and women should
>learn the
>social norms for men and women. For example, men do not go around
>sitting in
>the splits. They save the splits for dance only. Also, there are
>rules for
>different body types. I'm sure there are many generalities that
>will hold
>true for many circumstance, and many of the rules will only be
>ways of
>communicating different information. For example, Guys should not
>wear very
>tight, stretchy pants with a shorter shirt unless they want to
>convey how
>big and... muscular they are.
>But frankly, again, most blind people once worked past their
>kinetic
>oddities, will be much more excepted in the world.
>For example, I'm trying really hard now to stop snapping my
>retainers,
>because I guess it really creeps people out... :(
>Once people learn the rules, they will be able to label anything
>new that
>pops up and work to remove the odd mannerism from their actions.
>Thank you,
>Brandon Keith Biggs
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Workman
>Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 7:37 PM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>sighted societyat
>social gatherings
>Chris wrote,
>Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which
>our
>sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow them,
>what does
>that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
>different,
>abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
>that they
>are the product of sighted people simply aping one another, and
>that they
>are arbitrary. I believe that such unwritten rules often
>needlessly cause
>huge amounts of anxiety, self-loathing, and anguish.
>We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
>particularly around
>the subject of so called "blindisms, and I put that term in
>quotes as a way
>of acknowledging that it is pejorative. I'm sure it could be
>found on line
>by anyone who is interested.
>Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are
>accepted
>and respected not simply to the extent that they can look and act
>like
>sighted people, but on the grounds that they are human beings
>possessing
>dignity and as equally worthy of respect as sighted people. The
>message
>shouldn't be, "hey, we can follow your rules, so you should
>accept us".
>Instead, the message should be, "we, like you, have many talents
>and
>weaknesses, feel pleasure and pain, reach our full potential
>through the
>formation of deep and meaningful relationships with other human
>beings, and
>your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
>discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
>into sighted
>society. We are constantly policing one another's behaviour.
>Probably one of
>the more obvious examples of this has to do with gender. There
>are hundreds
>if not thousands of mostly unspoken rules about what makes a man
>a man and
>how real men ought to behave, and there are twice as many
>concerning women.
>These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
>result is
>often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot, or chooses
>not to,
>conform. These gender rules are just as arbitrary as those around
>sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort similarly should be to
>relax and
>remove such rules, not to more explicitly and fervently teach
>boys and girls
>the so called right way to act.
>This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
>does
>unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed social,
>volunteer,
>and employment opportunities. So I don't judge or condemn anyone
>who makes a
>serious effort to learn the unwritten rules of sighted society,
>just as I
>don't judge someone who wants to spend all of his or her time
>reading
>medical journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard
>being blind
>in the particular society in which we live, and conforming can
>make things a
>little bit easier. But I still think we should work more on
>changing
>attitudes and less on teaching blind people how to look and act
>like sighted
>people.
>Regards,
>Marc
>On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
><dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi Brandon and all,
>I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
>thread, as if
>we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has brought up in
>his post,
>I think it would prevent confusion if we changed the subject to
>reflect
>the actual topic of Brandon's message.
>Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
>instructional
>seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can "fit in" with
>the
>sighted public is a great one! I think you should talk with the
>NFB
>leadership about this! I believe NOPBC (the parents division)
>has touched
>on this topic in their seminars at conventions. One of the
>topics at the
>parents seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost
>always social
>skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
>acceptable and
>how we as blind people can fit in at social gatherings,
>conforming as best
>we can to the "norms" of society. I believe this is arguably
>more
>important for blind students, as we are often in social
>gatherings (or
>want to be in them) at our schools, with our friends, or in our
>communities. Therefore, it is important that we know the
>unwritten rules
>which our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and
>follow
>them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we
>are weird,
>different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
>very
>adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out
>from the
>vocabulary of the public when in the context of blindness and
>blind
>people. In other words, these are the very things we don't want
>sighted
>people thinking about us. If this is how sighted people
>perceive us, then
>it puts our ability to get a job, volunteer in our community,
>and become
>first-class citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great
>thing for
>the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
>doing
>already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
>students,
>perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of a future
>NABS
>membership call.
>Just my thoughts,
>Chris
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>Hello,
>We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
>sex. There
>is
>a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with
>some
>practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
>:)
>I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
>sighted
>community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
>blind
>community.
>I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
>not) have
>some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
>against the
>grain
>of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
>suggested
>that
>the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
>world
>thinks.
>Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
>looks at a
>gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
>or a
>sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
>him and when
>she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
>really weird
>and
>she turns around and walks a mile away.
>This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
>both sexual
>health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
>of
>attention
>among blind individuals, and students in particular.
>I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
>aren't
>meant
>to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
>would greatly
>improve convention.
>Thank you,
>Brandon Keith Biggs
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Arielle Silverman
>Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>Hi all,
>I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
>Whozit
>condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
>some
>NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
>NABS
>selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
>among
>young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
>position,
>but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
>extension, an
>NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
>providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
>or
>bringing on an unwanted political debate.
>I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
>Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
>perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
>proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
>diversity
>camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
>available
>as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
>fact,
>this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop
>about
>sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
>Arielle
>On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
>wrote:
>Hello,
>This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
>never
>seen
>a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
>having to
>be
>embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
>condoms in
>the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
>browsing...
>Condoms,
>lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
>probably need
>to
>provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
>a condom
>or
>use a dental dam.
>Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial. The
>packing
>guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I
>for one
>don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
>that sell
>hot
>serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to
>buy a box
>for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
>(Then of
>course
>we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
>bring
>their
>own utensil's).
>Thanks,
>Brandon Keith Biggs
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Anmol Bhatia
>Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
>convention...
>Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even
>braille
>them
>so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>Anmol
>I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>Perhaps
>there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
>like a breeze
>among flowers.
>Hellen Keller
>--- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
>wrote:
>From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
>mailing
>list"
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
>Hi, Brandon,
>I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
>the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
>I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
>Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
>remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
>blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
>you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
>the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
>okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
>Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
>professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
>Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>Respectfully,
>Jedi
>Sent from my iPhone
>On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
><brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>wrote:
>Hello,
>Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
>turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
>I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
>really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
>only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
>Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
>that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
>never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
>knows that site is trust worthy.
>I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
>used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
>presume?
>Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
>was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
>the experience is often not pleasant.
>Thanks,
>Brandon Keith Biggs
>-----Original Message----- From: Arielle
>Silverman
>Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>Hi all,
>I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
>are kind of in a
>gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
>for this list, since
>most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
>unique to blindness.
>So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
>too far afield, I
>will happily respect your judgment. However, I
>also think that
>Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
>legitimate one and
>that there might be other blind people out here,
>including teenagers,
>who have similar concerns about how to get
>condoms, birth control or
>sexual health information without a lot of
>awkwardness or
>embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
>you have to depend
>on someone else (especially parents) for
>transportation which can make
>going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
>There are a few places to buy condoms online,
>including
>www.condomania.com
>www.undercovercondoms.com
>and
>www.condomdepot.com
>Believe it or not, they also have some condom
>choices at
>www.amazon.com
>If you go to your health center on campus for any
>reason, it shouldn't
>be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
>about condoms.
>I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
>having sex with a
>partner because that is a highly individual
>decision. However, I feel
>it important that anyone who is considering having
>sex for the first
>time ensure you understand what all of your
>options are for preventing
>pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
>advantages and
>disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
>to use condoms and
>birth control. There are a couple different
>websites with this kind
>of information:
>www.plannedparenthood.org
>(includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
>or
>www.scarleteen.com
>This issue is particularly close to my heart at
>the moment because my
>boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
>pregnancy at a very
>inopportune time (while still in college, with a
>guy she had only
>known for a few months) and was apparently taking
>birth control pills,
>but had not been taking them consistently. While I
>don't believe that
>sex should be feared, it is something that
>takes some responsibility,
>planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
>while minimizing the
>risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
>there are other ways
>to be physically intimate with someone that are
>less risky, which
>these online forums will talk about.
>I also want to bring up an issue that is
>somewhat relevant to sexual
>health, which I experienced and I think that some
>of you might also be
>struggling with. This is the issue of having your
>parents drive you to
>doctors' appointments and then having them want to
>sit in or even
>participate in your appointments. Since I attended
>college in my home
>city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
>doctors' appointments
>and would then want to come in and chat with the
>doctor while he/she
>was examining me. This was partly because my
>parents and I saw many of
>the same doctors and she often thought it was a
>good opportunity to
>ask the doctor a quick question about her own
>health while she was
>there, or because she was curious to see what the
>doctor recommended
>to me about a particular issue. I eventually
>realized that while it
>wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
>privacy as an adult
>patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
>room while I was seeing
>the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
>until I was 21 and in
>hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
>By the time you are 18,
>unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
>you have a right to
>privacy of your medical information and it is
>important to establish a
>good doctor-patient relationship without a third
>person interfering.
>This is especially true when it comes to sexual
>health and by the time
>you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
>discussing your sexual
>activities or questions with your doctors without
>your parents being
>around. You might also want to consider getting a
>driver or even
>taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
>this problem.
>On a related note, by the time you are in high
>school, you should know
>the names of all medications you take on a
>regular basis and any
>chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
>ever have to go to the
>emergency room, this kind of information may
>be requested of you.
>Best,
>Arielle
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