[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
Sarah
coastergirl92 at gmail.com
Thu Sep 20 15:45:57 UTC 2012
Yeah sighted people don't know what it's to not be able to
"watch" tv. We have to listen to tv and hope someone will
describe it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at PCCUAEDU.onmicrosoft.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 04:08:49 +0000
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
I always say listening to the tv, because when I say, "Watching
TV," I get, "How do you watch it?"
When that happens, people start laughing, like it's some big
joke!
It gets old!
Blessings, Joshua
________________________________________
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on
behalf of Desiree Oudinot [turtlepower17 at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 11:00 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
sighted societyatsocial gatherings
Listening to TV, huh? Could this not be a lesson in precisely
what
we're discussing here? If we want to fit into the sighted world,
we'd
do well to say we're watching TV or a movie like everyone else.
I hate
it when someone gets all flustered and up in arms when they can't
think of a politically correct way to ask us blind folks what
shows we
like, or worse yet, if we can enjoy the cinema at all. you're
not
helping by spurring that misconception on.
On 9/19/12, Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everyone, my name is Sarah. I am bj years old. I just
graduated a program called D.P.I. Davidson Program For
Independence. I had to go there because Guide Dogs Of the
Desert
said I had to go. So I graduated from there, tomorrow I go get
my first guide dog! My interests are rides, reading, listening
to
tv, dogs and horses
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:48:32 -0700
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
sighted societyatsocial gatherings
Hello,
There are quite a few ideas that are universal through out
cultures.
For example, it is never socially acceptable to sway in
conversation. It is
only acceptable to rock back and forth mildly when playing
guitar
or more
heavily when one is studying the old testament as a Jew.
Otherwise chin up, strait and relaxed stillness for the torso
almost always.
Also, facial expressions are almost constant through out all
cultures. A
smile is always happy, big eyes are innocents or raised
eyebrows,
big eyes
with mouth a little open is startled or scared.
Beckoning is also a very universal gesture with the fist out in
front facing
up with the index finger moving up and down like the person is a
balloon and
the string is on your finger...
Fit me in or something along that lines is more inclusive
because
it means
one can ask about fitting in to their theater group, dance teem,
glee club,
getting in a relationship, dating...
I am not sure how people are expecting to fit into a sighted
world without
some sighted help.
Although I am guessing that the way the list will pan out is
more
blind
people asking questions and both blind people and a few TVIs or
parents will
help. I am on a couple lists with quite a few sighted people
and
with
questions like this they are invaluable...
Who knew that hugging yourself with your hands in a fist over
your heart, as
if you were trying to keep warm, actually looks like you are
terrified of
something?
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Arielle Silverman
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 12:24 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
sighted societyat
social gatherings
Hi all,
Sorry to be difficult but I am not willing to join a listserv
called
"Being Socially Acceptable Blind" or "Looking Sighted". Both
names
imply that all sighted people look and act the same or that
there is
only one way to be socially acceptable; these are notions that,
frankly, I believe are offensive to blind and sighted people
both.
I believe such a listserv should be intended to be a
nonjudgmental
forum where blind folks can ask questions or share frustrations
and
get supportive answers from blind peers and blind mentors, not a
place
where subscribers are told they must look and act a certain way.
Also,
while we might let TVI's join if they want, I think the vast
majority
of the subscribers should be blind people and we should keep
teachers
and authority figures to a minimum.
I'd support a name like "blind-fitting in", "blind-social" or
"blind-dating" perhaps.
If the group is created with a tolerant, non-judgmental name I'd
be
happy to help out with it.
On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
wrote:
Names:
See me blind (SEM at blah.whatever)
Being Socially acceptable blind (SEB)
Looking Sighted (LS or LSighted)
talk sightless (TSightless)
Just some names...
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Desiree Oudinot
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 10:48 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
sighted
societyat
social gatherings
That's actually a pretty good idea for a name. That was the
only thing
holding me back from creating a group, the fact I couldn't
really
think of a name for it. As for making a website, that would be
a cool
idea too, but I don't know html or anything, so I decided not
to
go
that route.
Where I was going when I was talking about the different
student
divisions was that I don't want it to become a point of
contension on
the list. I don't want people going to war over which
organization's
philosophy prepares people to deal with social and dating
situations
better. It's fine for people to be part of whatever they so
choose,
but I absolutely will not tolerate stereotypes about either
one.
I
want it to be a safe place where people can feel open enough to
discuss such uncomfortable and embarrassing topics as their
social
awkwardness. If someone starts saying that joining the NFB
would help
them be more independent, or that the ACB is crap, well, what
will
that solve? I'm not a member of either, nor do I ever intend on
doing
so, so I feel that I could nip this stuff in the bud if it
would
happen, and I'm not even saying it necessarily would become a
problem,
it's just something to consider.
On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
wrote:
Hello,
Frankly I don't know what the difference between the ACB's
student and
NFB's
student division is. We are all dealing with exactly the same
things. So
I
really believe we should get our sighted parents, friends and
whatnot to
be
on the list to answer questions we may have. Many TVIs would
jump at the
chance to be on a list serve devoted to socializing.
Just make a group, possibly:
bseb at googlegroups.com or something :). Being socially
acceptable blind or
a
cooler name LOL... Any ideas?
I even think this should have a website with different articles
that
someone
can brows to answer any personal questions they may have.
Because this is
such a big issue.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Desiree Oudinot
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 9:29 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
sighted
societyat
social gatherings
And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
discuss these kinds of issues and more. And, at the risk of
offending
people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate from the
NFB
or
ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind person, no
matter
their political or social status or whatever, to discuss how
they fit
in with society. Why does it offend you that blind people,
whether
they be men or women, should try to do their best to interact
as
sighted people do? Are there really specific guidelines we have
to
follow? I really want to understand this. I know as well as
anyone
what struggles we have to go through growing up just to be
treated
like human beings. First, we're blind people, then we're
young,
and
the stereotypes surrounding young people of our generation are
just as
crippling as those surrounding being blind. So being dealt
both
as our
hand in life is kind of a double whammy. I still struggle when
someone
actually treats me as an equal. I want to run away.
On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out
of
me because it just does for some reason.
2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of,
and
this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care
of
themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind
woman
cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since
Jason
can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working
for
nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
wife. You will be poor." No way.
Beth
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
sighted societyat social gatherings
Chris wrote,
Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules
which
our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we
are
weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not
natural,
that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
self-loathing, and anguish.
We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who
is
interested.
Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people
are
accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we
can
follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the
message
should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses,
feel
pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the
formation
of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings,
and
your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this
has
to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of
mostly
unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who
cannot,
or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the
effort
similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called
right
way to act.
This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't
judge
or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge
someone
who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
blind in the particular society in which we live, and
conforming
can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we
should
work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind
people
how to look and act like sighted people.
Regards,
Marc
On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
<dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Brandon and all,
I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon
has
brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if
we
changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
message.
Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we
can
"fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
(the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always
social
skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of
society.
I believe this is arguably more important for blind students,
as
we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at
our
schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore,
it
is important that we know the unwritten rules which our
sighted
society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are
the
very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut
out
from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for
blind
students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic
of
a future NABS membership call.
Just my thoughts,
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
Hello,
We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
sex. There is
a huge difference. If the student division is the only one
with
some
practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little
scared...
:)
I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among
a
sighted
community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by
the
blind
community.
I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth
or
not) have
some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
against the grain
of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
suggested that
the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
world thinks.
Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the
world
looks at a
gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so
weird.
or a
sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
him and when
she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
really weird and
she turns around and walks a mile away.
This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
both sexual
health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
of attention
among blind individuals, and students in particular.
I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
aren't meant
to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
would greatly
improve convention.
Thank you,
Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Arielle Silverman
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
Hi all,
I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
Whozit
condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are
probably
some
NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel
that
NABS
selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual
activity
among
young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
position,
but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
extension, an
NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB
leadership
or
bringing on an unwanted political debate.
I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general,
and
perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
diversity
camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
available
as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
fact,
this was the first time I actually felt one. A general
workshop
about
sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
Arielle
On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
wrote:
Hello,
This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people
have
never
seen
a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels
without
having to
be
embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
condoms in
the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
browsing...
Condoms,
lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
probably need
to
provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put
on
a condom
or
use a dental dam.
Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.
The
packing
guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and
I
for one
don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
that sell
hot
serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved
to
buy a box
for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
(Then of
course
we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who
didn't
bring
their
own utensil's).
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Anmol Bhatia
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
convention...
Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can
even
braille
them
so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me
sad.
Perhaps
there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
like a breeze
among flowers.
Hellen Keller
--- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
wrote:
From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
mailing
list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
Hi, Brandon,
I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
Respectfully,
Jedi
Sent from my iPhone
On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
<brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
wrote:
Hello,
Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
knows that site is trust worthy.
I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
presume?
Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
the experience is often not pleasant.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message----- From: Arielle
Silverman
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
Hi all,
I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
are kind of in a
gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
for this list, since
most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
unique to blindness.
So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
too far afield, I
will happily respect your judgment. However, I
also think that
Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
legitimate one and
that there might be other blind people out here,
including teenagers,
who have similar concerns about how to get
condoms, birth control or
sexual health information without a lot of
awkwardness or
embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
you have to depend
on someone else (especially parents) for
transportation which can make
going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
There are a few places to buy condoms online,
including
www.condomania.com
www.undercovercondoms.com
and
www.condomdepot.com
Believe it or not, they also have some condom
choices at
www.amazon.com
If you go to your health center on campus for any
reason, it shouldn't
be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
about condoms.
I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
having sex with a
partner because that is a highly individual
decision. However, I feel
it important that anyone who is considering having
sex for the first
time ensure you understand what all of your
options are for preventing
pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
advantages and
disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
to use condoms and
birth control. There are a couple different
websites with this kind
of information:
www.plannedparenthood.org
(includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
or
www.scarleteen.com
This issue is particularly close to my heart at
the moment because my
boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
pregnancy at a very
inopportune time (while still in college, with a
guy she had only
known for a few months) and was apparently taking
birth control pills,
but had not been taking them consistently. While I
don't believe that
sex should be feared, it is something that
takes some responsibility,
planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
while minimizing the
risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
there are other ways
to be physically intimate with someone that are
less risky, which
these online forums will talk about.
I also want to bring up an issue that is
somewhat relevant to sexual
health, which I experienced and I think that some
of you might also be
struggling with. This is the issue of having your
parents drive you to
doctors' appointments and then having them want to
sit in or even
participate in your appointments. Since I attended
college in my home
city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
doctors' appointments
and would then want to come in and chat with the
doctor while he/she
was examining me. This was partly because my
parents and I saw many of
the same doctors and she often thought it was a
good opportunity to
ask the doctor a quick question about her own
health while she was
there, or because she was curious to see what the
doctor recommended
to me about a particular issue. I eventually
realized that while it
wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
privacy as an adult
patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
room while I was seeing
the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
until I was 21 and in
hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
By the time you are 18,
unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
you have a right to
privacy of your medical information and it is
important to establish a
good doctor-patient relationship without a third
person interfering.
This is especially true when it comes to sexual
health and by the time
you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
discussing your sexual
activities or questions with your doctors without
your parents being
around. You might also want to consider getting a
driver or even
taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
this problem.
On a related note, by the time you are in high
school, you should know
the names of all medications you take on a
regular basis and any
chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
ever have to go to the
emergency room, this kind of information may
be requested of you.
Best,
Arielle
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