[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
Carly Mihalakis
carlymih at comcast.net
Thu Sep 20 18:17:39 UTC 2012
What the hell does BA years old, mean?PM 9/19/2012, Humberto Avila wrote:
>Hey, I am BA years old, though I have never cquiired a college degree, yet.
>(smile!) I'm going to, someday, but by that time I will not be BA years old
>anymore.. Smile!***
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>Of Brandon Keith Biggs
>Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 8:13 PM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>
>Hello Sarah,
>"I am bj years old" That just made my day! I love knowing Braille :). I'm
>totally going to say that next time someone asks me how old I am. Or I could
>
>say second octave b :)...
>So nice to have you on the list!
>Thanks,
>
>Brandon Keith Biggs
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sarah
>Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 7:45 PM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>
>Hello everyone, my name is Sarah. I am bj years old. I just
>graduated a program called D.P.I. Davidson Program For
>Independence. I had to go there because Guide Dogs Of the Desert
>said I had to go. So I graduated from there, tomorrow I go get
>my first guide dog! My interests are rides, reading, listening to
>tv, dogs and horses
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:48:32 -0700
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>sighted societyatsocial gatherings
>
>Hello,
>There are quite a few ideas that are universal through out
>cultures.
>For example, it is never socially acceptable to sway in
>conversation. It is
>only acceptable to rock back and forth mildly when playing guitar
>or more
>heavily when one is studying the old testament as a Jew.
>Otherwise chin up, strait and relaxed stillness for the torso
>almost always.
>
>Also, facial expressions are almost constant through out all
>cultures. A
>smile is always happy, big eyes are innocents or raised eyebrows,
>big eyes
>with mouth a little open is startled or scared.
>Beckoning is also a very universal gesture with the fist out in
>front facing
>up with the index finger moving up and down like the person is a
>balloon and
>the string is on your finger...
>
>Fit me in or something along that lines is more inclusive because
>it means
>one can ask about fitting in to their theater group, dance teem,
>glee club,
>getting in a relationship, dating...
>
>I am not sure how people are expecting to fit into a sighted
>world without
>some sighted help.
>Although I am guessing that the way the list will pan out is more
>blind
>people asking questions and both blind people and a few TVIs or
>parents will
>help. I am on a couple lists with quite a few sighted people and
>with
>questions like this they are invaluable...
>Who knew that hugging yourself with your hands in a fist over
>your heart, as
>if you were trying to keep warm, actually looks like you are
>terrified of
>something?
>Thanks,
>
>Brandon Keith Biggs
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Arielle Silverman
>Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 12:24 PM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>sighted societyat
>social gatherings
>
>Hi all,
>Sorry to be difficult but I am not willing to join a listserv
>called
>"Being Socially Acceptable Blind" or "Looking Sighted". Both
>names
>imply that all sighted people look and act the same or that
>there is
>only one way to be socially acceptable; these are notions that,
>frankly, I believe are offensive to blind and sighted people
>both.
>I believe such a listserv should be intended to be a
>nonjudgmental
>forum where blind folks can ask questions or share frustrations
>and
>get supportive answers from blind peers and blind mentors, not a
>place
>where subscribers are told they must look and act a certain way.
>Also,
>while we might let TVI's join if they want, I think the vast
>majority
>of the subscribers should be blind people and we should keep
>teachers
>and authority figures to a minimum.
>I'd support a name like "blind-fitting in", "blind-social" or
>"blind-dating" perhaps.
>If the group is created with a tolerant, non-judgmental name I'd
>be
>happy to help out with it.
>
>
>On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
>wrote:
>Names:
>See me blind (SEM at blah.whatever)
>Being Socially acceptable blind (SEB)
>Looking Sighted (LS or LSighted)
>talk sightless (TSightless)
>
>Just some names...
>Thanks,
>
>Brandon Keith Biggs
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Desiree Oudinot
>Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 10:48 AM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>sighted
>societyat
>
>social gatherings
>
>That's actually a pretty good idea for a name. That was the
>only thing
>holding me back from creating a group, the fact I couldn't
>really
>think of a name for it. As for making a website, that would be
>a cool
>idea too, but I don't know html or anything, so I decided not to
>go
>that route.
>Where I was going when I was talking about the different student
>divisions was that I don't want it to become a point of
>contension on
>the list. I don't want people going to war over which
>organization's
>philosophy prepares people to deal with social and dating
>situations
>better. It's fine for people to be part of whatever they so
>choose,
>but I absolutely will not tolerate stereotypes about either one.
>I
>want it to be a safe place where people can feel open enough to
>discuss such uncomfortable and embarrassing topics as their
>social
>awkwardness. If someone starts saying that joining the NFB
>would help
>them be more independent, or that the ACB is crap, well, what
>will
>that solve? I'm not a member of either, nor do I ever intend on
>doing
>so, so I feel that I could nip this stuff in the bud if it would
>happen, and I'm not even saying it necessarily would become a
>problem,
>it's just something to consider.
>
>On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
>wrote:
>Hello,
>Frankly I don't know what the difference between the ACB's
>student and
>NFB's
>
>student division is. We are all dealing with exactly the same
>things. So
>I
>really believe we should get our sighted parents, friends and
>whatnot to
>be
>
>on the list to answer questions we may have. Many TVIs would
>jump at the
>chance to be on a list serve devoted to socializing.
>Just make a group, possibly:
>bseb at googlegroups.com or something :). Being socially
>acceptable blind or
>
>a
>
>cooler name LOL... Any ideas?
>I even think this should have a website with different articles
>that
>someone
>
>can brows to answer any personal questions they may have.
>Because this is
>such a big issue.
>Thanks,
>
>Brandon Keith Biggs
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Desiree Oudinot
>Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 9:29 PM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>sighted
>societyat
>
>social gatherings
>
>And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
>discuss these kinds of issues and more. And, at the risk of
>offending
>people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate from the NFB
>or
>ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind person, no
>matter
>their political or social status or whatever, to discuss how
>they fit
>in with society. Why does it offend you that blind people,
>whether
>they be men or women, should try to do their best to interact as
>sighted people do? Are there really specific guidelines we have
>to
>follow? I really want to understand this. I know as well as
>anyone
>what struggles we have to go through growing up just to be
>treated
>like human beings. First, we're blind people, then we're young,
>and
>the stereotypes surrounding young people of our generation are
>just as
>crippling as those surrounding being blind. So being dealt both
>as our
>hand in life is kind of a double whammy. I still struggle when
>someone
>actually treats me as an equal. I want to run away.
>
>On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
>1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out
>of
>me because it just does for some reason.
>2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
>shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
>girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
>will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
>this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care
>of
>themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
>current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
>man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
>that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
>are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind
>woman
>cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since
>Jason
>can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
>to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
>different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
>ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
>due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
>but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working
>for
>nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
>accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
>organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
>saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
>wife. You will be poor." No way.
>Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>sighted societyat social gatherings
>
>Chris wrote,
>Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules
>which
>our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
>them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we
>are
>weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>
>Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
>that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
>another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
>unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
>self-loathing, and anguish.
>
>We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
>particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
>put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
>pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
>interested.
>
>Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people
>are
>accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
>look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
>are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
>respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we
>can
>follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the
>message
>should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
>pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the
>formation
>of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings,
>and
>your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
>discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>
>By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
>into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
>behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this
>has
>to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of
>mostly
>unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
>ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
>These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
>result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
>or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
>arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the
>effort
>similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
>explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called
>right
>way to act.
>
>This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
>does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
>social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't
>judge
>or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
>unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge
>someone
>who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
>journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
>blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
>can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we
>should
>work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind
>people
>how to look and act like sighted people.
>
>Regards,
>
>Marc
>On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
><dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Brandon and all,
>
> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
>thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
>brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
>changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
>message.
>
> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
>instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
>"fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
>should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
>(the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
>seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
>seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
>skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
>acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
>gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
>I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
>we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
>schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
>is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
>society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
>does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
>different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
>very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut
>out
>from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
>blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
>things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
>is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
>get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
>citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
>the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
>doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
>students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic
>of
>a future NABS membership call.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hello,
> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
>sex. There is
> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one
>with
>some
> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
>:)
> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
>sighted
> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by
>the
>blind
> community.
> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth
>or
>not) have
> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
>against the grain
> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
>suggested that
> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
>world thinks.
> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
>looks at a
> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so
>weird.
>or a
> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
>him and when
> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
>really weird and
> she turns around and walks a mile away.
> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
>both sexual
> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
>of attention
> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
>aren't meant
> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
>would greatly
> improve convention.
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hi all,
> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
>Whozit
> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are
>probably
>some
> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel
>that
>NABS
> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual
>activity
>among
> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
>position,
> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
>extension, an
> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
>or
> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general,
>and
> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
>diversity
> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
>available
> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
>fact,
> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general
>workshop
>about
> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
> Arielle
>
> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>wrote:
> Hello,
> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people
>have
>never
> seen
>
> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
>having to
> be
>
> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
>condoms in
> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
>browsing...
> Condoms,
>
> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
>probably need
> to
>
> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put
>on
>a condom
> or
>
> use a dental dam.
> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.
>The
>packing
> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and
>I
>for one
> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
>that sell
> hot
>
> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved
>to
>buy a box
> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
>(Then of
> course
>
> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who
>didn't
>bring
> their
>
> own utensil's).
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anmol Bhatia
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
>
> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
> convention...
>
> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can
>even
>braille
> them
>
> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>
> Anmol
>
> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me
>sad.
>Perhaps
> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
>like a breeze
> among flowers.
> Hellen Keller
>
>
> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>wrote:
>
> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
>mailing
> list"
>
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
> Hi, Brandon,
>
> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
> knows that site is trust worthy.
> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
> presume?
> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
> the experience is often not pleasant.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
> Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hi all,
> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
> are kind of in a
> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
> for this list, since
> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
> unique to blindness.
> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
> too far afield, I
> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
> also think that
> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
> legitimate one and
> that there might be other blind people out here,
> including teenagers,
> who have similar concerns about how to get
> condoms, birth control or
> sexual health information without a lot of
> awkwardness or
> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
> you have to depend
> on someone else (especially parents) for
> transportation which can make
> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
> including
> www.condomania.com
> www.undercovercondoms.com
> and
> www.condomdepot.com
> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
> choices at
> www.amazon.com
> If you go to your health center on campus for any
> reason, it shouldn't
> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
> about condoms.
> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
> having sex with a
> partner because that is a highly individual
> decision. However, I feel
> it important that anyone who is considering having
> sex for the first
> time ensure you understand what all of your
> options are for preventing
> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
> advantages and
> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
> to use condoms and
> birth control. There are a couple different
> websites with this kind
> of information:
> www.plannedparenthood.org
> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
> or
> www.scarleteen.com
> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
> the moment because my
> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
> pregnancy at a very
> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
> guy she had only
> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
> birth control pills,
> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
> don't believe that
> sex should be feared, it is something that
> takes some responsibility,
> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
> while minimizing the
> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
> there are other ways
> to be physically intimate with someone that are
> less risky, which
> these online forums will talk about.
> I also want to bring up an issue that is
> somewhat relevant to sexual
> health, which I experienced and I think that some
> of you might also be
> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
> parents drive you to
> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
> sit in or even
> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
> college in my home
> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
> doctors' appointments
> and would then want to come in and chat with the
> doctor while he/she
> was examining me. This was partly because my
> parents and I saw many of
> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
> good opportunity to
> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
> health while she was
> there, or because she was curious to see what the
> doctor recommended
> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
> realized that while it
> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
> privacy as an adult
> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
> room while I was seeing
> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
> until I was 21 and in
> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
> By the time you are 18,
> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
> you have a right to
> privacy of your medical information and it is
> important to establish a
> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
> person interfering.
> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
> health and by the time
> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
> discussing your sexual
> activities or questions with your doctors without
> your parents being
> around. You might also want to consider getting a
> driver or even
> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
> this problem.
> On a related note, by the time you are in high
> school, you should know
> the names of all medications you take on a
> regular basis and any
> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
> ever have to go to the
> emergency room, this kind of information may
> be requested of you.
> Best,
> Arielle
>
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