[nabs-l] Listening vs. Watching
Carly Mihalakis
carlymih at comcast.net
Sat Sep 22 15:47:22 UTC 2012
Hi, everyone,
Can't we just move on! I mean again, we're not
talkin' about splitting the atom, here!
Car At 08:30 AM 9/22/2012, Marc Workman wrote:
>To add to what Arielle says. Even when her
>sighted boyfriend says, "I'll see you this
>afternoon", he doesn't mean he will visually
>perceive her this afternoon. At least, he
>doesn't just mean that. If in the evening,
>Arielle asks him, "where were you this
>afternoon?" It would be odd for him to say,
>"what do you mean? I looked at you from across
>the cafeteria, so I saw you just like I said I
>would". Only in some very rare cases does "I'll
>see you later" just mean one person will
>visually perceive another at some future point
>in time. It normally means instead that two or
>more people will interact in person in the
>future, and blind people are just as capable as
>sighted people of interacting in person. So to
>my mind, if someone thinks it strange or
>incorrect for a blind person to say "I'll see
>you later", the person doesn't understand what
>is meant by the word "see" in that sentence.
>
>Something similar is true of the word "watch" in
>the sentence "I'm watching TV". If someone was
>sitting in front of a screen not paying
>attention to the audio, not paying attention to
>the plot, not understanding what's going on, and
>yet visually perceiving the images on the
>screen, I think that person could hardly be said
>to be watching TV. It seems strange to me to say
>a six-month-old or a cat is watching TV. It
>would be more appropriate to say the baby or the
>cat is looking at the TV. Watching TV means
>paying attention to plot, following the story,
>understanding what's happening, and all of this
>can be done without visually perceiving the
>images on the screen. Someone could argue that
>visually perceiving is essential for watching—to
>use philosophic jargon, visually perceiving is
>necessary but not sufficient for watching).
>Maybe, but I don't know who gets to decide these
>things, and since visual perception of the
>images on screen seems less important than all
>the other elements of watching, I think it's
>perfectly fine for a blind person to say she is
>watching TV. That said, if a blind person
>prefers the word "listening", I wouldn't get up
>set with him and suggest he's setting back the
>cause of blind people everywhere. When sighted
>people, on the other hand, correct the word
>usage of blind people when it comes to watching
>and seeing, this is patronizing and/or ignorant,
>and a little education can be helpful.
>
>Cheers,
>
>On 2012-09-21, at 10:02 AM, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> > Frankly, I think we as blind people have much bigger fish to fry than
> > worrying about whether to say we watch or listen to stuff. We should
> > use the terms we feel comfortable with and that sound appropriate even
> > if they aren't technically correct. Hopefully a sighted conversation
> > partner will be able to get the meaning of what you're saying and move
> > on instead of freaking out about the technicalities of whether or not
> > you can actually see something.
> > It goes the other way too. I often get emails from sighted people (as
> > well as blind people) that end with "Hope to hear from you soon".
> > Literally what they mean is "hope to see a written response from you
> > on my computer screen soon". Should I correct them and say, "I'm
> > sending you a response in text, not voice, so you should have said
> > hope to read from you soon?" I think not. Or maybe I should start
> > saying "smell you later" to my boyfriend when I leave for work? Again,
> > that would be highly inappropriate, even though when I say "I'll see
> > you later" I won't literally be seeing him. OK, I think you get the
> > idea.
> > Arielle
> > On 9/21/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> >> Movies on a computer can be on MP3 or they
> can have video. I would maintain
> >> that if you are sitting there with a movie on the
> >> computer that is in MP3 format and you say you are watching it, you are
> >> going to come across more out of touch with the world than
> >> saying you are listening to it. Also, the
> fact is that when I enjoy a movie
> >> I am listening to it while I would never be watching
> >> music so those two examples are really not interchangeable as you have
> >> indicated. Having said that, I do tend to say that I
> >> watched a given thing on TV and that I
> haven't seen this or that movie just
> >> because it makes sense, but I think this sort of thing
> >> can be carried too far. We are going to be judged far more by such things
> >> as whether we can travel independently, for example,
> >> rather than whether we watch or listen to TV. I agree with the sentiment
> >> expressed by someone else that we are incorrect to think
> >> that there is one social norm that is conformed to by all sighted people.
> >> This is not meant to support inappropriate behavior
> >> such as picking up food with one's fingers
> that clearly is not meant to be a
> >> finger food, or not paying attention to what is going
> >> on around us. When my co-worker argued with me about watching TV, I had
> >> frankly never thought about the apparent conflict in what
> >> I was saying. The verb "watched" just went with TV for me, as it does for
> >> you. However, I have come to realize that for some,
> >> using that term makes them wonder if there is some device that I have that
> >> let's me get some sense of what is being displayed. I
> >> now understand that my use of that term may
> raise questions in the minds of
> >> some, and if it is apparent, I can take the time to
> >> explain. When I thought about it, my co-worker was not really wrong and
> >> deserved something more than my anger, I do not
> >> physically watch TV. He saw me as an
> independent and capable blind person,
> >> so it didn't make sense to him that I would use the
> >> word "watched." To him, it was a sort of denial of my circumstances that
> >> was inconsistent with how I live my life. Life just
> >> isn't all that simple sometimes.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Steve Jacobson
> >>
> >> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:45:46 -0400, Desiree Oudinot wrote:
> >>
> >>> The same logic can be applied to described movies that are on the
> >>> computer, since they're usually in mp3 format. But why be so picky? A
> >>> movie is a movie. It was made into a format that was meant to be taken
> >>> in visually. Watching it seems the normal way to say what you're
> >>> doing, and frankly, saying you're listening to a movie just sounds
> >>> weird to me. Would you ever say you're watching music? Sure, you could
> >>> if you're watching a music video, but unless you're tripping on acid,
> >>> I'm pretty sure your senses aren't getting shuffled around.
> >>> As for someone getting offended because you said you were watching
> >>> something, that's exactly the kind of behavior that makes me really
> >>> mad. I had an English teacher once who said that I wasn't allowed to
> >>> say words such as look or see because I couldn't possibly understand
> >>> them, and she would make me edit my papers so those words weren't
> >>> included. And then there was the time she yelled at me because I said
> >>> in one story that a cat had stopped at night to rest, because
> >>> apparently I was implying that cats can't see in the dark, and what
> >>> would I know about that!
> >>
> >>> On 9/20/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> >>>> Okay, so if I have a TV show on but it is running through my stereo with
> >>>> no
> >>>> TV screen, am I watching it or am I listening to it.
> >>>> I got into kind of an argument with a sighted co-worker once when I told
> >>>> him
> >>>> what I had watched on TV and he felt strongly that
> >>>> for me to say I was watching TV was not accurate. He actually saw it as
> >>>> me
> >>>> sort of pretending inasmuch as I did not watch it.
> >>>> The upshot is that we are going to be measured more broadly than that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Steve
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 00:00:21 -0400, Desiree Oudinot wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Listening to TV, huh? Could this not be a lesson in precisely what
> >>>>> we're discussing here? If we want to fit into the sighted world, we'd
> >>>>> do well to say we're watching TV or a movie like everyone else. I hate
> >>>>> it when someone gets all flustered and up in arms when they can't
> >>>>> think of a politically correct way to ask us blind folks what shows we
> >>>>> like, or worse yet, if we can enjoy the cinema at all. you're not
> >>>>> helping by spurring that misconception on.
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 9/19/12, Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hello everyone, my name is Sarah. I am bj years old. I just
> >>>>>> graduated a program called D.P.I. Davidson Program For
> >>>>>> Independence. I had to go there because Guide Dogs Of the Desert
> >>>>>> said I had to go. So I graduated from there, tomorrow I go get
> >>>>>> my first guide dog! My interests are rides, reading, listening to
> >>>>>> tv, dogs and horses
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:48:32 -0700
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> >>>>>> sighted societyatsocial gatherings
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>> There are quite a few ideas that are universal through out
> >>>>>> cultures.
> >>>>>> For example, it is never socially acceptable to sway in
> >>>>>> conversation. It is
> >>>>>> only acceptable to rock back and forth mildly when playing guitar
> >>>>>> or more
> >>>>>> heavily when one is studying the old testament as a Jew.
> >>>>>> Otherwise chin up, strait and relaxed stillness for the torso
> >>>>>> almost always.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also, facial expressions are almost constant through out all
> >>>>>> cultures. A
> >>>>>> smile is always happy, big eyes are innocents or raised eyebrows,
> >>>>>> big eyes
> >>>>>> with mouth a little open is startled or scared.
> >>>>>> Beckoning is also a very universal gesture with the fist out in
> >>>>>> front facing
> >>>>>> up with the index finger moving up and down like the person is a
> >>>>>> balloon and
> >>>>>> the string is on your finger...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Fit me in or something along that lines is more inclusive because
> >>>>>> it means
> >>>>>> one can ask about fitting in to their theater group, dance teem,
> >>>>>> glee club,
> >>>>>> getting in a relationship, dating...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I am not sure how people are expecting to fit into a sighted
> >>>>>> world without
> >>>>>> some sighted help.
> >>>>>> Although I am guessing that the way the list will pan out is more
> >>>>>> blind
> >>>>>> people asking questions and both blind people and a few TVIs or
> >>>>>> parents will
> >>>>>> help. I am on a couple lists with quite a few sighted people and
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>> questions like this they are invaluable...
> >>>>>> Who knew that hugging yourself with your hands in a fist over
> >>>>>> your heart, as
> >>>>>> if you were trying to keep warm, actually looks like you are
> >>>>>> terrified of
> >>>>>> something?
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 12:24 PM
> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> >>>>>> sighted societyat
> >>>>>> social gatherings
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>> Sorry to be difficult but I am not willing to join a listserv
> >>>>>> called
> >>>>>> "Being Socially Acceptable Blind" or "Looking Sighted". Both
> >>>>>> names
> >>>>>> imply that all sighted people look and act the same or that
> >>>>>> there is
> >>>>>> only one way to be socially acceptable; these are notions that,
> >>>>>> frankly, I believe are offensive to blind and sighted people
> >>>>>> both.
> >>>>>> I believe such a listserv should be intended to be a
> >>>>>> nonjudgmental
> >>>>>> forum where blind folks can ask questions or share frustrations
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> get supportive answers from blind peers and blind mentors, not a
> >>>>>> place
> >>>>>> where subscribers are told they must look and act a certain way.
> >>>>>> Also,
> >>>>>> while we might let TVI's join if they want, I think the vast
> >>>>>> majority
> >>>>>> of the subscribers should be blind people and we should keep
> >>>>>> teachers
> >>>>>> and authority figures to a minimum.
> >>>>>> I'd support a name like "blind-fitting in", "blind-social" or
> >>>>>> "blind-dating" perhaps.
> >>>>>> If the group is created with a tolerant, non-judgmental name I'd
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>> happy to help out with it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Names:
> >>>>>> See me blind (SEM at blah.whatever)
> >>>>>> Being Socially acceptable blind (SEB)
> >>>>>> Looking Sighted (LS or LSighted)
> >>>>>> talk sightless (TSightless)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just some names...
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Desiree Oudinot
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 10:48 AM
> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> >>>>>> sighted
> >>>>>> societyat
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> social gatherings
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That's actually a pretty good idea for a name. That was the
> >>>>>> only thing
> >>>>>> holding me back from creating a group, the fact I couldn't
> >>>>>> really
> >>>>>> think of a name for it. As for making a website, that would be
> >>>>>> a cool
> >>>>>> idea too, but I don't know html or anything, so I decided not to
> >>>>>> go
> >>>>>> that route.
> >>>>>> Where I was going when I was talking about the different student
> >>>>>> divisions was that I don't want it to become a point of
> >>>>>> contension on
> >>>>>> the list. I don't want people going to war over which
> >>>>>> organization's
> >>>>>> philosophy prepares people to deal with social and dating
> >>>>>> situations
> >>>>>> better. It's fine for people to be part of whatever they so
> >>>>>> choose,
> >>>>>> but I absolutely will not tolerate stereotypes about either one.
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> want it to be a safe place where people can feel open enough to
> >>>>>> discuss such uncomfortable and embarrassing topics as their
> >>>>>> social
> >>>>>> awkwardness. If someone starts saying that joining the NFB
> >>>>>> would help
> >>>>>> them be more independent, or that the ACB is crap, well, what
> >>>>>> will
> >>>>>> that solve? I'm not a member of either, nor do I ever intend on
> >>>>>> doing
> >>>>>> so, so I feel that I could nip this stuff in the bud if it would
> >>>>>> happen, and I'm not even saying it necessarily would become a
> >>>>>> problem,
> >>>>>> it's just something to consider.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>> Frankly I don't know what the difference between the ACB's
> >>>>>> student and
> >>>>>> NFB's
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> student division is. We are all dealing with exactly the same
> >>>>>> things. So
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> really believe we should get our sighted parents, friends and
> >>>>>> whatnot to
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> on the list to answer questions we may have. Many TVIs would
> >>>>>> jump at the
> >>>>>> chance to be on a list serve devoted to socializing.
> >>>>>> Just make a group, possibly:
> >>>>>> bseb at googlegroups.com or something :). Being socially
> >>>>>> acceptable blind or
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> cooler name LOL... Any ideas?
> >>>>>> I even think this should have a website with different articles
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> someone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> can brows to answer any personal questions they may have.
> >>>>>> Because this is
> >>>>>> such a big issue.
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Desiree Oudinot
> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 9:29 PM
> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> >>>>>> sighted
> >>>>>> societyat
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> social gatherings
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
> >>>>>> discuss these kinds of issues and more. And, at the risk of
> >>>>>> offending
> >>>>>> people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate from the NFB
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind person, no
> >>>>>> matter
> >>>>>> their political or social status or whatever, to discuss how
> >>>>>> they fit
> >>>>>> in with society. Why does it offend you that blind people,
> >>>>>> whether
> >>>>>> they be men or women, should try to do their best to interact as
> >>>>>> sighted people do? Are there really specific guidelines we have
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> follow? I really want to understand this. I know as well as
> >>>>>> anyone
> >>>>>> what struggles we have to go through growing up just to be
> >>>>>> treated
> >>>>>> like human beings. First, we're blind people, then we're young,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> the stereotypes surrounding young people of our generation are
> >>>>>> just as
> >>>>>> crippling as those surrounding being blind. So being dealt both
> >>>>>> as our
> >>>>>> hand in life is kind of a double whammy. I still struggle when
> >>>>>> someone
> >>>>>> actually treats me as an equal. I want to run away.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
> >>>>>> 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> me because it just does for some reason.
> >>>>>> 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
> >>>>>> shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
> >>>>>> girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
> >>>>>> will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
> >>>>>> this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
> >>>>>> current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
> >>>>>> man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
> >>>>>> that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
> >>>>>> are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind
> >>>>>> woman
> >>>>>> cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since
> >>>>>> Jason
> >>>>>> can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
> >>>>>> to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
> >>>>>> different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
> >>>>>> ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
> >>>>>> due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
> >>>>>> but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
> >>>>>> accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
> >>>>>> organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
> >>>>>> saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
> >>>>>> wife. You will be poor." No way.
> >>>>>> Beth
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> >>>>>> sighted societyat social gatherings
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Chris wrote,
> >>>>>> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules
> >>>>>> which
> >>>>>> our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
> >>>>>> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>> weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
> >>>>>> that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
> >>>>>> another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
> >>>>>> unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
> >>>>>> self-loathing, and anguish.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
> >>>>>> particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
> >>>>>> put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
> >>>>>> pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
> >>>>>> interested.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>> accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
> >>>>>> look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
> >>>>>> are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
> >>>>>> respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we
> >>>>>> can
> >>>>>> follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the
> >>>>>> message
> >>>>>> should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
> >>>>>> pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the
> >>>>>> formation
> >>>>>> of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
> >>>>>> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
> >>>>>> into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
> >>>>>> behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this
> >>>>>> has
> >>>>>> to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of
> >>>>>> mostly
> >>>>>> unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
> >>>>>> ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
> >>>>>> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
> >>>>>> result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
> >>>>>> or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
> >>>>>> arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the
> >>>>>> effort
> >>>>>> similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
> >>>>>> explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called
> >>>>>> right
> >>>>>> way to act.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
> >>>>>> does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
> >>>>>> social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't
> >>>>>> judge
> >>>>>> or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
> >>>>>> unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge
> >>>>>> someone
> >>>>>> who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
> >>>>>> journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
> >>>>>> blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
> >>>>>> can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we
> >>>>>> should
> >>>>>> work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind
> >>>>>> people
> >>>>>> how to look and act like sighted people.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Marc
> >>>>>> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
> >>>>>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Brandon and all,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
> >>>>>> thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
> >>>>>> brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
> >>>>>> changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
> >>>>>> message.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
> >>>>>> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
> >>>>>> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
> >>>>>> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
> >>>>>> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
> >>>>>> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
> >>>>>> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
> >>>>>> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
> >>>>>> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
> >>>>>> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
> >>>>>> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
> >>>>>> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
> >>>>>> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
> >>>>>> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
> >>>>>> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
> >>>>>> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
> >>>>>> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
> >>>>>> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut
> >>>>>> out
> >>>>>> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
> >>>>>> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
> >>>>>> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
> >>>>>> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
> >>>>>> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
> >>>>>> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
> >>>>>> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
> >>>>>> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
> >>>>>> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> a future NABS membership call.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Chris
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
> >>>>>> sex. There is
> >>>>>> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>> some
> >>>>>> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
> >>>>>> :)
> >>>>>> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
> >>>>>> sighted
> >>>>>> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> blind
> >>>>>> community.
> >>>>>> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> not) have
> >>>>>> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
> >>>>>> against the grain
> >>>>>> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
> >>>>>> suggested that
> >>>>>> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
> >>>>>> world thinks.
> >>>>>> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
> >>>>>> looks at a
> >>>>>> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so
> >>>>>> weird.
> >>>>>> or a
> >>>>>> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
> >>>>>> him and when
> >>>>>> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
> >>>>>> really weird and
> >>>>>> she turns around and walks a mile away.
> >>>>>> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
> >>>>>> both sexual
> >>>>>> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
> >>>>>> of attention
> >>>>>> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
> >>>>>> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
> >>>>>> aren't meant
> >>>>>> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
> >>>>>> would greatly
> >>>>>> improve convention.
> >>>>>> Thank you,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
> >>>>>> Whozit
> >>>>>> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are
> >>>>>> probably
> >>>>>> some
> >>>>>> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> NABS
> >>>>>> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual
> >>>>>> activity
> >>>>>> among
> >>>>>> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
> >>>>>> position,
> >>>>>> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
> >>>>>> extension, an
> >>>>>> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
> >>>>>> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
> >>>>>> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
> >>>>>> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
> >>>>>> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
> >>>>>> diversity
> >>>>>> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
> >>>>>> available
> >>>>>> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
> >>>>>> fact,
> >>>>>> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general
> >>>>>> workshop
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>>> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
> >>>>>> Arielle
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> never
> >>>>>> seen
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
> >>>>>> having to
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
> >>>>>> condoms in
> >>>>>> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
> >>>>>> browsing...
> >>>>>> Condoms,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
> >>>>>> probably need
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put
> >>>>>> on
> >>>>>> a condom
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> use a dental dam.
> >>>>>> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.
> >>>>>> The
> >>>>>> packing
> >>>>>> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> for one
> >>>>>> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
> >>>>>> that sell
> >>>>>> hot
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> buy a box
> >>>>>> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
> >>>>>> (Then of
> >>>>>> course
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who
> >>>>>> didn't
> >>>>>> bring
> >>>>>> their
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> own utensil's).
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Anmol Bhatia
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
> >>>>>> convention...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can
> >>>>>> even
> >>>>>> braille
> >>>>>> them
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anmol
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me
> >>>>>> sad.
> >>>>>> Perhaps
> >>>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
> >>>>>> like a breeze
> >>>>>> among flowers.
> >>>>>> Hellen Keller
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
> >>>>>> mailing
> >>>>>> list"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
> >>>>>> Hi, Brandon,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
> >>>>>> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
> >>>>>> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
> >>>>>> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
> >>>>>> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
> >>>>>> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
> >>>>>> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
> >>>>>> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
> >>>>>> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
> >>>>>> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
> >>>>>> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
> >>>>>> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Respectfully,
> >>>>>> Jedi
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
> >>>>>> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
> >>>>>> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
> >>>>>> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
> >>>>>> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
> >>>>>> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
> >>>>>> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
> >>>>>> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
> >>>>>> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
> >>>>>> knows that site is trust worthy.
> >>>>>> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
> >>>>>> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
> >>>>>> presume?
> >>>>>> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
> >>>>>> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
> >>>>>> the experience is often not pleasant.
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
> >>>>>> Silverman
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
> >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
> >>>>>> are kind of in a
> >>>>>> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
> >>>>>> for this list, since
> >>>>>> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
> >>>>>> unique to blindness.
> >>>>>> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
> >>>>>> too far afield, I
> >>>>>> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
> >>>>>> also think that
> >>>>>> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
> >>>>>> legitimate one and
> >>>>>> that there might be other blind people out here,
> >>>>>> including teenagers,
> >>>>>> who have similar concerns about how to get
> >>>>>> condoms, birth control or
> >>>>>> sexual health information without a lot of
> >>>>>> awkwardness or
> >>>>>> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
> >>>>>> you have to depend
> >>>>>> on someone else (especially parents) for
> >>>>>> transportation which can make
> >>>>>> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
> >>>>>> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
> >>>>>> including
> >>>>>> www.condomania.com
> >>>>>> www.undercovercondoms.com
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> www.condomdepot.com
> >>>>>> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
> >>>>>> choices at
> >>>>>> www.amazon.com
> >>>>>> If you go to your health center on campus for any
> >>>>>> reason, it shouldn't
> >>>>>> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
> >>>>>> about condoms.
> >>>>>> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
> >>>>>> having sex with a
> >>>>>> partner because that is a highly individual
> >>>>>> decision. However, I feel
> >>>>>> it important that anyone who is considering having
> >>>>>> sex for the first
> >>>>>> time ensure you understand what all of your
> >>>>>> options are for preventing
> >>>>>> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
> >>>>>> advantages and
> >>>>>> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
> >>>>>> to use condoms and
> >>>>>> birth control. There are a couple different
> >>>>>> websites with this kind
> >>>>>> of information:
> >>>>>> www.plannedparenthood.org
> >>>>>> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> www.scarleteen.com
> >>>>>> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
> >>>>>> the moment because my
> >>>>>> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
> >>>>>> pregnancy at a very
> >>>>>> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
> >>>>>> guy she had only
> >>>>>> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
> >>>>>> birth control pills,
> >>>>>> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
> >>>>>> don't believe that
> >>>>>> sex should be feared, it is something that
> >>>>>> takes some responsibility,
> >>>>>> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
> >>>>>> while minimizing the
> >>>>>> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
> >>>>>> there are other ways
> >>>>>> to be physically intimate with someone that are
> >>>>>> less risky, which
> >>>>>> these online forums will talk about.
> >>>>>> I also want to bring up an issue that is
> >>>>>> somewhat relevant to sexual
> >>>>>> health, which I experienced and I think that some
> >>>>>> of you might also be
> >>>>>> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
> >>>>>> parents drive you to
> >>>>>> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
> >>>>>> sit in or even
> >>>>>> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
> >>>>>> college in my home
> >>>>>> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
> >>>>>> doctors' appointments
> >>>>>> and would then want to come in and chat with the
> >>>>>> doctor while he/she
> >>>>>> was examining me. This was partly because my
> >>>>>> parents and I saw many of
> >>>>>> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
> >>>>>> good opportunity to
> >>>>>> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
> >>>>>> health while she was
> >>>>>> there, or because she was curious to see what the
> >>>>>> doctor recommended
> >>>>>> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
> >>>>>> realized that while it
> >>>>>> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
> >>>>>> privacy as an adult
> >>>>>> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
> >>>>>> room while I was seeing
> >>>>>> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
> >>>>>> until I was 21 and in
> >>>>>> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
> >>>>>> By the time you are 18,
> >>>>>> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
> >>>>>> you have a right to
> >>>>>> privacy of your medical information and it is
> >>>>>> important to establish a
> >>>>>> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
> >>>>>> person interfering.
> >>>>>> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
> >>>>>> health and by the time
> >>>>>> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
> >>>>>> discussing your sexual
> >>>>>> activities or questions with your doctors without
> >>>>>> your parents being
> >>>>>> around. You might also want to consider getting a
> >>>>>> driver or even
> >>>>>> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
> >>>>>> this problem.
> >>>>>> On a related note, by the time you are in high
> >>>>>> school, you should know
> >>>>>> the names of all medications you take on a
> >>>>>> regular basis and any
> >>>>>> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
> >>>>>> ever have to go to the
> >>>>>> emergency room, this kind of information may
> >>>>>> be requested of you.
> >>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>> Arielle
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> >>>>>> your account info for nabs-l:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb
> >>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi
> >>>>>> %40samobile.net
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co
> >>>>>> mcast.net
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%
> >>>>>> 40yahoo.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>> mail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>> m%40gmail.com
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> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>> %40gmail.com
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>> mail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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